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Keir was the toolmaker’s son – politicalbetting.com

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  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    edited June 14

    Leon said:

    I wonder what it first was about the Putinist racist Nigel Farage that first attracted Putinguy into supporting him?

    I reckon it might be to do with Nige dabbling with the Jew hatred.

    Nigel Farage has been condemned by the UK’s main Jewish groups and MPs for repeatedly using language and themes associated with far-right antisemitic conspiracy theories, something for which he has been previously criticised.

    The Board of Deputies of British Jews said Farage’s airing of claims about plots to undermine national governments, and his references to Goldman Sachs and the financier George Soros, showed he was seeking to “trade in dog whistles”.

    The Brexit party leader, who has been criticised for agreeing to interviews with openly antisemitic US media personalities, was also condemned by the MPs who co-chair the all-party group against antisemitism.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/jewish-groups-and-mps-condemn-nigel-farage-for-antisemitic-dog-whistles

    and

    Nigel Farage has been criticised for referring to “a powerful Jewish lobby” operating in America.

    Mr Farage, who was presenting his phone-in show on the LBC network yesterday, took a call from someone identifying himself as “Ahmed” during a debate on Russian influence in last year’s US presidential election.

    “How come there’s such an issue with Russia, and no one really highlighting AIPAC and the Israeli lobby and their involvement in American politics and elections”, the caller asked.


    https://www.thejc.com/news/nigel-farage-condemned-over-jewish-lobby-comment-hitsicm5
    It is possible to reject anti-Semitism while also noting that the Jewish lobby has an unhealthy influence over Washington politics, making a free debate about Israel almost impossible for ambitious politicians, especially those on the right

    This is not a critique of American Jews as some devious cabal. They are just very good at organising and influencing and have been doing it for decades. Many others could learn from them

    George Soros is very political; the groups he funds have political objectives - that's not a value-judgement, it's a bald statement of fact. Does his (apparent) Jewish background mean his political advocacy must not be debated and discussed? That would make his actions immune from criticism or simple discussion.
    But there is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge gap between what Soros funds and what MAGA types (or Fidesz types) say he funds.
    Very possibly, but the cure for liars isn't banning the discussion - that's grist to their mill.
    Blocking liars from saying things or having an audience is a very effective way of reducing the number of lies that get heard. Fining liars large sums of money also works.

    Numerous studies have shown that blocking conspiracy theory content on social media leads to fewer people believing in those conspiracy theories. The conspiracy theorists moan about it and say there's a conspiracy against them, but it works.

    In the US, the evolution of a large right-wing world of media that pumps out lie after lie has been associated with the rise of US politicians who constantly lie.
    People like you got the “lab leak hypothesis” silenced for a year on social media

    How did that work out? Was that good for the world? Twat
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,058
    Nigelb said:
    Bloody hell, even *Trump* supports banning bump stocks.

    Soon they'll probably expand the 2nd amendment to include grenades and rocket launchers
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,568

    tlg86 said:

    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    One reason bbc might want Farage on the telly. He’s far more popular than all the other parties combined. With da yoot

    “Farage is absolutely killing it on TikTok. So many fan edits of him, and his actual account has 662k followers, more than double the combined total for Labour (198k), Tories (61k), Greens (40k), and LibDems (21k).

    Something is definitely happening out there…”

    https://x.com/mikediplockre/status/1801610769093546063?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Odds on chants of Ooooh Nigel Farage chants at Glastonbury?
    He’s still going to be more popular there than Coldplay.
    Well...



    Super Hans is never wrong.
    Comedy is nowhere near as it was back then. So many iconic saying from Peep Show, Inbetweeners, Office, Phoenix Nights, IT Crowd, Thick of It to name a few.

    What you are (Sunak), is an Omnishambles...You are like one of those coffee machines, from Bean to Cup, you f##k up.
    My 15yo son loves Peep Show.
    Get him onto Father Ted.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,090
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder what it first was about the Putinist racist Nigel Farage that first attracted Putinguy into supporting him?

    I reckon it might be to do with Nige dabbling with the Jew hatred.

    Nigel Farage has been condemned by the UK’s main Jewish groups and MPs for repeatedly using language and themes associated with far-right antisemitic conspiracy theories, something for which he has been previously criticised.

    The Board of Deputies of British Jews said Farage’s airing of claims about plots to undermine national governments, and his references to Goldman Sachs and the financier George Soros, showed he was seeking to “trade in dog whistles”.

    The Brexit party leader, who has been criticised for agreeing to interviews with openly antisemitic US media personalities, was also condemned by the MPs who co-chair the all-party group against antisemitism.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/jewish-groups-and-mps-condemn-nigel-farage-for-antisemitic-dog-whistles

    and

    Nigel Farage has been criticised for referring to “a powerful Jewish lobby” operating in America.

    Mr Farage, who was presenting his phone-in show on the LBC network yesterday, took a call from someone identifying himself as “Ahmed” during a debate on Russian influence in last year’s US presidential election.

    “How come there’s such an issue with Russia, and no one really highlighting AIPAC and the Israeli lobby and their involvement in American politics and elections”, the caller asked.


    https://www.thejc.com/news/nigel-farage-condemned-over-jewish-lobby-comment-hitsicm5
    It is possible to reject anti-Semitism while also noting that the Jewish lobby has an unhealthy influence over Washington politics, making a free debate about Israel almost impossible for ambitious politicians, especially those on the right

    This is not a critique of American Jews as some devious cabal. They are just very good at organising and influencing and have been doing it for decades. Many others could learn from them
    It’s definitely not anti-Semetic to point out that George Soros is, through the Open Society Foundations, funding a lot of the woke nonsense in the US in recent years, including the District Attourneys who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM.

    https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/
    That link, nor https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice , doesn't support your claim that Soros is funding "District Attourneys [sic] who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM."
    Except that he did indeed fund the campaigns of a whole load of DAs who act like I said in practice.
    Feel free to provide some details using reliable sources.

    Soros has donated some money. To say he funded the campaigns exaggerates his input. To describe the DAs in the terms you did is often propaganda, not a fair summary of their actions. But without details, it is difficult to comment.

    One thing Soros's foundation does do is fund attempts to bring Russian war criminals to justice for their acts in Ukraine, as per https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice I would have thought you would welcome such.

    More detail here: https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/newsroom/the-open-society-foundations-in-ukraine Lots of good work!
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Leon said:

    I wonder what it first was about the Putinist racist Nigel Farage that first attracted Putinguy into supporting him?

    I reckon it might be to do with Nige dabbling with the Jew hatred.

    Nigel Farage has been condemned by the UK’s main Jewish groups and MPs for repeatedly using language and themes associated with far-right antisemitic conspiracy theories, something for which he has been previously criticised.

    The Board of Deputies of British Jews said Farage’s airing of claims about plots to undermine national governments, and his references to Goldman Sachs and the financier George Soros, showed he was seeking to “trade in dog whistles”.

    The Brexit party leader, who has been criticised for agreeing to interviews with openly antisemitic US media personalities, was also condemned by the MPs who co-chair the all-party group against antisemitism.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/jewish-groups-and-mps-condemn-nigel-farage-for-antisemitic-dog-whistles

    and

    Nigel Farage has been criticised for referring to “a powerful Jewish lobby” operating in America.

    Mr Farage, who was presenting his phone-in show on the LBC network yesterday, took a call from someone identifying himself as “Ahmed” during a debate on Russian influence in last year’s US presidential election.

    “How come there’s such an issue with Russia, and no one really highlighting AIPAC and the Israeli lobby and their involvement in American politics and elections”, the caller asked.


    https://www.thejc.com/news/nigel-farage-condemned-over-jewish-lobby-comment-hitsicm5
    It is possible to reject anti-Semitism while also noting that the Jewish lobby has an unhealthy influence over Washington politics, making a free debate about Israel almost impossible for ambitious politicians, especially those on the right

    This is not a critique of American Jews as some devious cabal. They are just very good at organising and influencing and have been doing it for decades. Many others could learn from them
    It was quite common during the Brexit era for certain Remainers to salivate about how the Irish lobby in the US would ensure Britain was put in its place. They weren't accused of stirring up hibernophobia.
    They were also, as it turned out, correct!
    Bullshit. There being no "Irish lobby" in the USA worth mentioning this millennium.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I’m old enough to remember when I said “I suspect the Chinese are trying to sabotage Boeing” and the usual PB midwits scoffed at my conspiracy theorising

    Et voila

    “F.A.A. Investigating How Counterfeit Titanium Got Into Boeing and Airbus Jets
    The material, which was purchased from a little-known Chinese company, was sold with falsified documents and used in parts that went into jets from both manufacturers.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/14/us/politics/boeing-airbus-titanium-faa.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb

    I propose a new PB rule: LEON IS RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING (usually a year ahead of everyone else) APART FROM LIZ TRUSS AND WHAT3WORDS

    Yeah, it's not as if this has never happened before with aerospace:

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/rockets/a27334344/nasa-rocket-fraud/

    The metals market has always been a little wild west.
    At this point, any one who DOESN’T suspect China must seriously lack mental agility. Ah, I see the problem

    “Boeing's problems have become an opportunity for China's plane manufacturer
    COMAC is looking to pass both Boeing and Airbus in the international market”

    https://theweek.com/business/boeing-opportunity-china-plane-manufacturer
    Do fuck off, fool.

    I am well aware of the international aviation market. But your ability to add one and one and get eight thousand, three hundred and twenty-seven point six is quite something.

    Not everything is a conspiracy, you know.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,568

    HYUFD said:

    Wells Fargo sacks employees using 'mouse jugglers' to pretend to be working at home

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjll01220yeo

    It rather suggests that whatever work they should have been doing wasn't that important if they could run mouse jugglers and it was only after tracking that did the bosses work out they were doing bugger all work.
    I think it is mouse jiggling rather than mouse juggling.

    It would require mice plural to be juggling. And probably requires more attention than they would ever give to their work.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159

    As a Labour chap, I have to say that I find talk of the demise of the Tory Party to be both hyperbolic and distinctly premature, whatever the outcome on July 4.

    The Tory Party will still be going strong when Nigel Farage is living out the end of his days in a care home in Kent (not Clacton) humming 'Rule Britannia' between sips of warm beer.

    Given it seems to be mainly Rancid Right types who are salivating about the Cons being obliterated I find myself rooting for it not to happen.

    400/425 Labour seats, 50ish LDs, zero Reform will do me nicely thanks.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,995
    edited June 14
    As we idly speculate on the destruction and rebuilding of the party political system in the UK courtesy of Reform having a good opinion poll, a question.

    Imagine the whole election were decided by everyone having a forced rank-choice vote for all parties, from best to worst. Keeping this to UK parties with at least one seat, how would you vote?

    I struggle a bit with ranking in a couple of places but I think I would do:

    1. Lib Dems
    2. APNI
    3. Labour
    4. SDLP
    5. Plaid
    6. Green
    7. Conservative
    8. SNP
    9. UUP
    10. Reform
    11. DUP
    12. SF
    13. WPGB

    I struggle most with the order of 6, 7 and 8. In another mood they might be the opposite way round.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,173
    My picture quota for today, which does not include "Friday afternoon" alongside lunchtime, but could easily do so.

    A diagram by my favourite whimsical cartoonist Dave Walker.


    PS I see that @Leon 's local viewpoint at the top of Primrose Hill includes the location https://what3words.com/slurs.after.polite .
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020

    HYUFD said:

    Wells Fargo sacks employees using 'mouse jugglers' to pretend to be working at home

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjll01220yeo

    It rather suggests that whatever work they should have been doing wasn't that important if they could run mouse jugglers and it was only after tracking that did the bosses work out they were doing bugger all work.
    I think it is mouse jiggling rather than mouse juggling.

    It would require mice plural to be juggling. And probably requires more attention than they would ever give to their work.
    Obviously it was a typo.

    Although there have been stories of some people doing mouse juggling, where because of remote work, they have got themselves multiple jobs at the same time.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,270
    Sandpit said:

    German car makers klaxon...

    Germany battles to block Brussels clampdown on Chinese EVs
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/06/14/germany-battles-block-eu-clampdown-chinese-evs/

    LOL, so the German carmakers don’t even want the tariffs, because China is their largest export market and they fear retaliation.
    The story I've heard is that the Chinese retaliation would be to massively tariff *export* of batteries to those tariffing their cars. Since the German manufacturers are heavily dependent on Chinese batteries....
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,999
    Here's a comparison that makes Biden look relatively good. Relatively.
    "Biden's 37% approval rating positively sparkles next to Canadian PM Justin Trudeau (30%), German Chancellor Olaf Scholz (25%), U.K. Prime Minister Rishi Sunak (25%), French President Emmanuel Macron (21%) and Japanese PM Fumio Kishida (13%), per Morning Consult's tracker."
    source: https://www.axios.com/2024/06/13/g7-summit-2024-unpopular-leaders-biden-trudeau

    Italy's Meloni leads the G7, at 42 percent: https://pro.morningconsult.com/trackers/global-leader-approval

    (For the record, I have never thought highly of Biden, so that may explain why I don't see a large decline in his abilities in recent years. He has always had problems speaking, partly, it is claimed, because of his youthful stuttering.)
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437
    edited June 14
    ...

    Leon said:

    I wonder what it first was about the Putinist racist Nigel Farage that first attracted Putinguy into supporting him?

    I reckon it might be to do with Nige dabbling with the Jew hatred.

    Nigel Farage has been condemned by the UK’s main Jewish groups and MPs for repeatedly using language and themes associated with far-right antisemitic conspiracy theories, something for which he has been previously criticised.

    The Board of Deputies of British Jews said Farage’s airing of claims about plots to undermine national governments, and his references to Goldman Sachs and the financier George Soros, showed he was seeking to “trade in dog whistles”.

    The Brexit party leader, who has been criticised for agreeing to interviews with openly antisemitic US media personalities, was also condemned by the MPs who co-chair the all-party group against antisemitism.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/jewish-groups-and-mps-condemn-nigel-farage-for-antisemitic-dog-whistles

    and

    Nigel Farage has been criticised for referring to “a powerful Jewish lobby” operating in America.

    Mr Farage, who was presenting his phone-in show on the LBC network yesterday, took a call from someone identifying himself as “Ahmed” during a debate on Russian influence in last year’s US presidential election.

    “How come there’s such an issue with Russia, and no one really highlighting AIPAC and the Israeli lobby and their involvement in American politics and elections”, the caller asked.


    https://www.thejc.com/news/nigel-farage-condemned-over-jewish-lobby-comment-hitsicm5
    It is possible to reject anti-Semitism while also noting that the Jewish lobby has an unhealthy influence over Washington politics, making a free debate about Israel almost impossible for ambitious politicians, especially those on the right

    This is not a critique of American Jews as some devious cabal. They are just very good at organising and influencing and have been doing it for decades. Many others could learn from them
    It was quite common during the Brexit era for certain Remainers to salivate about how the Irish lobby in the US would ensure Britain was put in its place. They weren't accused of stirring up hibernophobia.
    They were also, as it turned out, correct!
    Bullshit. There being no "Irish lobby" in the USA worth mentioning this millennium.
    Isn't there a prominent member if it in The White House? Or did I imagine him coming to Britain to stop us jerking around and give 'the black and tans' a good hiding?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969

    Here's a comparison that makes Biden look relatively good. Relatively.
    "Biden's 37% approval rating positively sparkles next to Canadian PM Justin Trudeau (30%), German Chancellor Olaf Scholz (25%), U.K. Prime Minister Rishi Sunak (25%), French President Emmanuel Macron (21%) and Japanese PM Fumio Kishida (13%), per Morning Consult's tracker."
    source: https://www.axios.com/2024/06/13/g7-summit-2024-unpopular-leaders-biden-trudeau

    Italy's Meloni leads the G7, at 42 percent: https://pro.morningconsult.com/trackers/global-leader-approval

    (For the record, I have never thought highly of Biden, so that may explain why I don't see a large decline in his abilities in recent years. He has always had problems speaking, partly, it is claimed, because of his youthful stuttering.)

    Confirms Starmer is likely to have a short honeymoon as PM
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    TimS said:

    As we idly speculate on the destruction and rebuilding of the party political system in the UK courtesy of Reform having a good opinion poll, a question.

    Imagine the whole election were decided by everyone having a forced rank-choice vote for all parties, from best to worst. Keeping this to UK parties with at least one seat, how would you vote?

    I struggle a bit with ranking in a couple of places but I think I would do:

    1. Lib Dems
    2. APNI
    3. Labour
    4. SDLP
    5. Plaid
    6. Green
    7. Conservative
    8. SNP
    9. UUP
    10. Reform
    11. DUP
    12. SF
    13. WPGB

    I struggle most with the order of 6, 7 and 8. In another mood they might be the opposite way round.

    I wouldn’t include the nationalist or NI parties, voting in England as I am.

    So for me probably:

    1. Green
    2. Labour
    3. LD
    4. Con
    5. WPGB
    6. Reform

    4-6 fall a long way behind NOTA/DNV though.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161
    Changing the subject somewhat, I see that Donald Trump has proposed making income from tips tax free.

    I have a couple of thoughts on this:

    Firstly, if I was a service employee highly dependent on tips (waiters/waitresses, hairdressers, etc.) I would be extremely keen on this. As a policy it could be a real vote winner.

    Secondly, on the face of it, this is a measure that will benefit lower income workers, which I applaud.

    Thirdly, this does violate Smithson's rule of economic fairness: i.e. all work should be taxed similarly. Why should a metalworker earning $25/hour be taxed at 30%, while a waitress earning the same is taxed at just 10%.

    Fourth, the biggest beneficiaries (financially) from this will be serving staff in high end restaurants and bars in New York / LA, who already earn (relatively speaking) a lot.

    Fifth, this will further encourage the (incredibly annoying) tippification of the US. My grocery store prompts me to tip, and a I filled my bloody bag myself, why would I pay 20% on a $150 grocery bill for someone scanning some barcodes?.

    Sixth (and this is my big objection), this is an absolute boon for corruption: almost everything can now be classified as a "tip", and that means no need to pay taxes or keep records.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,270
    CatMan said:

    Nigelb said:
    Bloody hell, even *Trump* supports banning bump stocks.

    Soon they'll probably expand the 2nd amendment to include grenades and rocket launchers
    Slackers.

    Small children should have something like this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiM-RzPHyGs&t=220s

    Adults - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtCTzbh4mNQ&t=18s
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,648
    edited June 14

    Leon said:

    I wonder what it first was about the Putinist racist Nigel Farage that first attracted Putinguy into supporting him?

    I reckon it might be to do with Nige dabbling with the Jew hatred.

    Nigel Farage has been condemned by the UK’s main Jewish groups and MPs for repeatedly using language and themes associated with far-right antisemitic conspiracy theories, something for which he has been previously criticised.

    The Board of Deputies of British Jews said Farage’s airing of claims about plots to undermine national governments, and his references to Goldman Sachs and the financier George Soros, showed he was seeking to “trade in dog whistles”.

    The Brexit party leader, who has been criticised for agreeing to interviews with openly antisemitic US media personalities, was also condemned by the MPs who co-chair the all-party group against antisemitism.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/jewish-groups-and-mps-condemn-nigel-farage-for-antisemitic-dog-whistles

    and

    Nigel Farage has been criticised for referring to “a powerful Jewish lobby” operating in America.

    Mr Farage, who was presenting his phone-in show on the LBC network yesterday, took a call from someone identifying himself as “Ahmed” during a debate on Russian influence in last year’s US presidential election.

    “How come there’s such an issue with Russia, and no one really highlighting AIPAC and the Israeli lobby and their involvement in American politics and elections”, the caller asked.


    https://www.thejc.com/news/nigel-farage-condemned-over-jewish-lobby-comment-hitsicm5
    It is possible to reject anti-Semitism while also noting that the Jewish lobby has an unhealthy influence over Washington politics, making a free debate about Israel almost impossible for ambitious politicians, especially those on the right

    This is not a critique of American Jews as some devious cabal. They are just very good at organising and influencing and have been doing it for decades. Many others could learn from them
    It was quite common during the Brexit era for certain Remainers to salivate about how the Irish lobby in the US would ensure Britain was put in its place. They weren't accused of stirring up hibernophobia.
    They were also, as it turned out, correct!
    Bullshit. There being no "Irish lobby" in the USA worth mentioning this millennium.
    Ireland seems to think there is.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/world/americas/2022/08/27/soft-power-irish-lobbyists-in-the-us-secure-access-to-representatives-way-beyond-that-of-other-small-countries/

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2023/03/18/irish-america-has-always-had-our-back/
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020
    edited June 14
    rcs1000 said:

    Changing the subject somewhat, I see that Donald Trump has proposed making income from tips tax free.

    I have a couple of thoughts on this:

    Firstly, if I was a service employee highly dependent on tips (waiters/waitresses, hairdressers, etc.) I would be extremely keen on this. As a policy it could be a real vote winner.

    Secondly, on the face of it, this is a measure that will benefit lower income workers, which I applaud.

    Thirdly, this does violate Smithson's rule of economic fairness: i.e. all work should be taxed similarly. Why should a metalworker earning $25/hour be taxed at 30%, while a waitress earning the same is taxed at just 10%.

    Fourth, the biggest beneficiaries (financially) from this will be serving staff in high end restaurants and bars in New York / LA, who already earn (relatively speaking) a lot.

    Fifth, this will further encourage the (incredibly annoying) tippification of the US. My grocery store prompts me to tip, and a I filled my bloody bag myself, why would I pay 20% on a $150 grocery bill for someone scanning some barcodes?.

    Sixth (and this is my big objection), this is an absolute boon for corruption: almost everything can now be classified as a "tip", and that means no need to pay taxes or keep records.

    I wonder which of those is most attractive to Trump....

    At some point surely the tippification of US has to collapse on itself. It absolutely ridiculous.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    CatMan said:

    Nigelb said:
    Bloody hell, even *Trump* supports banning bump stocks.

    Soon they'll probably expand the 2nd amendment to include grenades and rocket launchers
    It was his administration's legislation they overturned.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161

    Here's a comparison that makes Biden look relatively good. Relatively.
    "Biden's 37% approval rating positively sparkles next to Canadian PM Justin Trudeau (30%), German Chancellor Olaf Scholz (25%), U.K. Prime Minister Rishi Sunak (25%), French President Emmanuel Macron (21%) and Japanese PM Fumio Kishida (13%), per Morning Consult's tracker."
    source: https://www.axios.com/2024/06/13/g7-summit-2024-unpopular-leaders-biden-trudeau

    Italy's Meloni leads the G7, at 42 percent: https://pro.morningconsult.com/trackers/global-leader-approval

    (For the record, I have never thought highly of Biden, so that may explain why I don't see a large decline in his abilities in recent years. He has always had problems speaking, partly, it is claimed, because of his youthful stuttering.)

    Every leader's approval is in the toilet because wages have risen slower than incomes in the last three years because of inflation caused by Putin's invasion of Ukraine. Getting elected leader after the worst of this (Meloni) is a boon, as you don't get the bulk of the blame.
  • The_WoodpeckerThe_Woodpecker Posts: 457

    Leon said:

    I wonder what it first was about the Putinist racist Nigel Farage that first attracted Putinguy into supporting him?

    I reckon it might be to do with Nige dabbling with the Jew hatred.

    Nigel Farage has been condemned by the UK’s main Jewish groups and MPs for repeatedly using language and themes associated with far-right antisemitic conspiracy theories, something for which he has been previously criticised.

    The Board of Deputies of British Jews said Farage’s airing of claims about plots to undermine national governments, and his references to Goldman Sachs and the financier George Soros, showed he was seeking to “trade in dog whistles”.

    The Brexit party leader, who has been criticised for agreeing to interviews with openly antisemitic US media personalities, was also condemned by the MPs who co-chair the all-party group against antisemitism.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/jewish-groups-and-mps-condemn-nigel-farage-for-antisemitic-dog-whistles

    and

    Nigel Farage has been criticised for referring to “a powerful Jewish lobby” operating in America.

    Mr Farage, who was presenting his phone-in show on the LBC network yesterday, took a call from someone identifying himself as “Ahmed” during a debate on Russian influence in last year’s US presidential election.

    “How come there’s such an issue with Russia, and no one really highlighting AIPAC and the Israeli lobby and their involvement in American politics and elections”, the caller asked.


    https://www.thejc.com/news/nigel-farage-condemned-over-jewish-lobby-comment-hitsicm5
    It is possible to reject anti-Semitism while also noting that the Jewish lobby has an unhealthy influence over Washington politics, making a free debate about Israel almost impossible for ambitious politicians, especially those on the right

    This is not a critique of American Jews as some devious cabal. They are just very good at organising and influencing and have been doing it for decades. Many others could learn from them
    It was quite common during the Brexit era for certain Remainers to salivate about how the Irish lobby in the US would ensure Britain was put in its place. They weren't accused of stirring up hibernophobia.
    They were also, as it turned out, correct!
    Bullshit. There being no "Irish lobby" in the USA worth mentioning this millennium.
    Why not? There ought to be!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020
    Almost half of Conservative voters want Rishi Sunak to strike a co-operation deal with Reform UK, a poll has found.

    The survey by BMG for the i newspaper found that 46 per cent of Tory voters supported the two parties co-operating.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/14/general-election-latest-news-sunak-starmer-farage-reform/
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    rcs1000 said:

    Changing the subject somewhat, I see that Donald Trump has proposed making income from tips tax free.

    I have a couple of thoughts on this:

    Firstly, if I was a service employee highly dependent on tips (waiters/waitresses, hairdressers, etc.) I would be extremely keen on this. As a policy it could be a real vote winner.

    Secondly, on the face of it, this is a measure that will benefit lower income workers, which I applaud.

    Thirdly, this does violate Smithson's rule of economic fairness: i.e. all work should be taxed similarly. Why should a metalworker earning $25/hour be taxed at 30%, while a waitress earning the same is taxed at just 10%.

    Fourth, the biggest beneficiaries (financially) from this will be serving staff in high end restaurants and bars in New York / LA, who already earn (relatively speaking) a lot.

    Fifth, this will further encourage the (incredibly annoying) tippification of the US. My grocery store prompts me to tip, and a I filled my bloody bag myself, why would I pay 20% on a $150 grocery bill for someone scanning some barcodes?.

    Sixth (and this is my big objection), this is an absolute boon for corruption: almost everything can now be classified as a "tip", and that means no need to pay taxes or keep records.

    I think you have your list in reverse order.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder what it first was about the Putinist racist Nigel Farage that first attracted Putinguy into supporting him?

    I reckon it might be to do with Nige dabbling with the Jew hatred.

    Nigel Farage has been condemned by the UK’s main Jewish groups and MPs for repeatedly using language and themes associated with far-right antisemitic conspiracy theories, something for which he has been previously criticised.

    The Board of Deputies of British Jews said Farage’s airing of claims about plots to undermine national governments, and his references to Goldman Sachs and the financier George Soros, showed he was seeking to “trade in dog whistles”.

    The Brexit party leader, who has been criticised for agreeing to interviews with openly antisemitic US media personalities, was also condemned by the MPs who co-chair the all-party group against antisemitism.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/jewish-groups-and-mps-condemn-nigel-farage-for-antisemitic-dog-whistles

    and

    Nigel Farage has been criticised for referring to “a powerful Jewish lobby” operating in America.

    Mr Farage, who was presenting his phone-in show on the LBC network yesterday, took a call from someone identifying himself as “Ahmed” during a debate on Russian influence in last year’s US presidential election.

    “How come there’s such an issue with Russia, and no one really highlighting AIPAC and the Israeli lobby and their involvement in American politics and elections”, the caller asked.


    https://www.thejc.com/news/nigel-farage-condemned-over-jewish-lobby-comment-hitsicm5
    It is possible to reject anti-Semitism while also noting that the Jewish lobby has an unhealthy influence over Washington politics, making a free debate about Israel almost impossible for ambitious politicians, especially those on the right

    This is not a critique of American Jews as some devious cabal. They are just very good at organising and influencing and have been doing it for decades. Many others could learn from them
    It’s definitely not anti-Semetic to point out that George Soros is, through the Open Society Foundations, funding a lot of the woke nonsense in the US in recent years, including the District Attourneys who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM.

    https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/
    That link, nor https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice , doesn't support your claim that Soros is funding "District Attourneys [sic] who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM."
    Except that he did indeed fund the campaigns of a whole load of DAs who act like I said in practice.
    Feel free to provide some details using reliable sources.

    Soros has donated some money. To say he funded the campaigns exaggerates his input. To describe the DAs in the terms you did is often propaganda, not a fair summary of their actions. But without details, it is difficult to comment.

    One thing Soros's foundation does do is fund attempts to bring Russian war criminals to justice for their acts in Ukraine, as per https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice I would have thought you would welcome such.

    More detail here: https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/newsroom/the-open-society-foundations-in-ukraine Lots of good work!
    Okay then.

    I’ll start with the LA Times:
    https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-prosecutor-campaign-20180523-story.html

    Then CBS News:
    https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/george-soros-district-attorney-campaigns-alameda-contra-costa/

    How’s about the New York Times:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/13/us/politics/george-soros-racial-justice-organizations.html

    …and the New York Post:
    https://nypost.com/2021/12/16/how-george-soros-funded-progressive-das-behind-us-crime-surge/

    Even the Associated Press:
    https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-maine-portland-government-and-politics-crime-2f8ad96c907729dffd2f112d3cf1703a

    That last article:
    PORTLAND, Maine (AP) — A local district attorney’s race in Maine wasn’t generating much attention until a political action committee linked to a deep-pocketed liberal donor with international name recognition suddenly took an interest.

    A super PAC funded by George Soros, the billionaire investor, philanthropist and conspiracy-theory target, dropped $300,000 on behalf of the challenger, dwarfing the $70,000 combined that had been raised by both candidates until then.

    The cash infusion — a stunning sum for a local race in Maine — shows how national groups are seeking to influence district attorney’s contests across the country. The spending highlights a mostly under-the-radar jostling for control of an office that some see as being on the front lines of the movement for criminal justice reforms.

    Left-leaning groups have stepped in to fund candidates who support those reforms, while conservatives are pushing back amid concerns that crime in America’s cities is out of control.”
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159

    Leon said:

    I wonder what it first was about the Putinist racist Nigel Farage that first attracted Putinguy into supporting him?

    I reckon it might be to do with Nige dabbling with the Jew hatred.

    Nigel Farage has been condemned by the UK’s main Jewish groups and MPs for repeatedly using language and themes associated with far-right antisemitic conspiracy theories, something for which he has been previously criticised.

    The Board of Deputies of British Jews said Farage’s airing of claims about plots to undermine national governments, and his references to Goldman Sachs and the financier George Soros, showed he was seeking to “trade in dog whistles”.

    The Brexit party leader, who has been criticised for agreeing to interviews with openly antisemitic US media personalities, was also condemned by the MPs who co-chair the all-party group against antisemitism.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/jewish-groups-and-mps-condemn-nigel-farage-for-antisemitic-dog-whistles

    and

    Nigel Farage has been criticised for referring to “a powerful Jewish lobby” operating in America.

    Mr Farage, who was presenting his phone-in show on the LBC network yesterday, took a call from someone identifying himself as “Ahmed” during a debate on Russian influence in last year’s US presidential election.

    “How come there’s such an issue with Russia, and no one really highlighting AIPAC and the Israeli lobby and their involvement in American politics and elections”, the caller asked.


    https://www.thejc.com/news/nigel-farage-condemned-over-jewish-lobby-comment-hitsicm5
    It is possible to reject anti-Semitism while also noting that the Jewish lobby has an unhealthy influence over Washington politics, making a free debate about Israel almost impossible for ambitious politicians, especially those on the right

    This is not a critique of American Jews as some devious cabal. They are just very good at organising and influencing and have been doing it for decades. Many others could learn from them

    George Soros is very political; the groups he funds have political objectives - that's not a value-judgement, it's a bald statement of fact. Does his (apparent) Jewish background mean his political advocacy must not be debated and discussed? That would make his actions immune from criticism or simple discussion.
    But there is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge gap between what Soros funds and what MAGA types (or Fidesz types) say he funds.
    Very possibly, but the cure for liars isn't banning the discussion - that's grist to their mill.
    Blocking liars from saying things or having an audience is a very effective way of reducing the number of lies that get heard. Fining liars large sums of money also works.

    Numerous studies have shown that blocking conspiracy theory content on social media leads to fewer people believing in those conspiracy theories. The conspiracy theorists moan about it and say there's a conspiracy against them, but it works.

    In the US, the evolution of a large right-wing world of media that pumps out lie after lie has been associated with the rise of US politicians who constantly lie.
    Yep. It's like pollution. A certain amount is inevitable but you want to restrict it not facilitate it.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020
    John Cleese has backed his local Labour candidate because the Conservative government “is the worst of my lifetime”. The Monty Python and Fawlty Towers star backed Daniel Aldridge in his hometown of Weston-super-Mare.

    I thought he lived in the Caribbean?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073

    Here's a comparison that makes Biden look relatively good. Relatively.
    "Biden's 37% approval rating positively sparkles next to Canadian PM Justin Trudeau (30%), German Chancellor Olaf Scholz (25%), U.K. Prime Minister Rishi Sunak (25%), French President Emmanuel Macron (21%) and Japanese PM Fumio Kishida (13%), per Morning Consult's tracker."
    source: https://www.axios.com/2024/06/13/g7-summit-2024-unpopular-leaders-biden-trudeau

    Italy's Meloni leads the G7, at 42 percent: https://pro.morningconsult.com/trackers/global-leader-approval

    (For the record, I have never thought highly of Biden, so that may explain why I don't see a large decline in his abilities in recent years. He has always had problems speaking, partly, it is claimed, because of his youthful stuttering.)

    It's very well documented, rather than 'claimed'.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161

    John Cleese has backed his local Labour candidate because the Conservative government “is the worst of my lifetime”. The Monty Python and Fawlty Towers star backed Daniel Aldridge in his hometown of Weston-super-Mare.

    I thought he lived in the Caribbean?

    I thought he was backing Reform?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822

    Almost half of Conservative voters want Rishi Sunak to strike a co-operation deal with Reform UK, a poll has found.

    The survey by BMG for the i newspaper found that 46 per cent of Tory voters supported the two parties co-operating.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/14/general-election-latest-news-sunak-starmer-farage-reform/

    Half of 2019 voters is 21%. Half of current Tory voters is 9%. So matters a lot which of those it is.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020
    Google DeepMind researchers have developed a virtual rat with an AI brain.

    PM of the UK in 2040....
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,270

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I’m old enough to remember when I said “I suspect the Chinese are trying to sabotage Boeing” and the usual PB midwits scoffed at my conspiracy theorising

    Et voila

    “F.A.A. Investigating How Counterfeit Titanium Got Into Boeing and Airbus Jets
    The material, which was purchased from a little-known Chinese company, was sold with falsified documents and used in parts that went into jets from both manufacturers.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/14/us/politics/boeing-airbus-titanium-faa.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb

    I propose a new PB rule: LEON IS RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING (usually a year ahead of everyone else) APART FROM LIZ TRUSS AND WHAT3WORDS

    Yeah, it's not as if this has never happened before with aerospace:

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/rockets/a27334344/nasa-rocket-fraud/

    The metals market has always been a little wild west.
    At this point, any one who DOESN’T suspect China must seriously lack mental agility. Ah, I see the problem

    “Boeing's problems have become an opportunity for China's plane manufacturer
    COMAC is looking to pass both Boeing and Airbus in the international market”

    https://theweek.com/business/boeing-opportunity-china-plane-manufacturer
    Do fuck off, fool.

    I am well aware of the international aviation market. But your ability to add one and one and get eight thousand, three hundred and twenty-seven point six is quite something.

    Not everything is a conspiracy, you know.
    If @Leon knew about aviation, he'd remember this one

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232


    "The origins of the crash disk are uncertain because of significant irregularities and gaps, noted in the NTSB report, in the manufacturing records of GE Aircraft Engines (GEAE) and its suppliers.[1]: 80  Records found after the accident indicated that two rough-machined forgings having the serial number of the crash disk had been routed through GEAE manufacturing. Records indicated that Alcoa supplied GE with TIMET titanium forgings for one disk with the serial number of the crash disk. Some records show that this disk "was rejected for an unsatisfactory ultrasonic indication", that an outside laboratory performed an ultrasound inspection of this disk, that this disk was subsequently returned to GE, and that this disk should have been scrapped. The FAA report stated, "There is no record of warranty claim by GEAE for defective material and no record of any credit for GEAE processed by Alcoa or TIMET".[1]: 53–55 

    GE records of the second disk having the serial number of the crash disk indicate that it was made with an RMI Titanium Company titanium billet supplied by Alcoa. Research of GE's records showed no other titanium parts were manufactured at GE from this RMI titanium billet during the period of 1969 to 1990. GE records indicate that final finishing and inspection of the crash disk were completed on December 11, 1971. Alcoa records indicate that this RMI titanium billet was first cut in 1972 and that all forgings made from this material were for airframe parts.[1]: 55  If the Alcoa records were accurate, the RMI titanium could not have been used to manufacture the crash disk, indicating that the initially rejected TIMET disk with "an unsatisfactory ultrasonic indication" was the crash disk."


    Which is a remarkably quiet way of saying fraudulent paperwork.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822

    John Cleese has backed his local Labour candidate because the Conservative government “is the worst of my lifetime”. The Monty Python and Fawlty Towers star backed Daniel Aldridge in his hometown of Weston-super-Mare.

    I thought he lived in the Caribbean?

    2m extra expats eligible to vote this time. Polling error? Have they heard of reform? If they vote SDP do they think they are getting the Alliance?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,995
    Ghedebrav said:

    TimS said:

    As we idly speculate on the destruction and rebuilding of the party political system in the UK courtesy of Reform having a good opinion poll, a question.

    Imagine the whole election were decided by everyone having a forced rank-choice vote for all parties, from best to worst. Keeping this to UK parties with at least one seat, how would you vote?

    I struggle a bit with ranking in a couple of places but I think I would do:

    1. Lib Dems
    2. APNI
    3. Labour
    4. SDLP
    5. Plaid
    6. Green
    7. Conservative
    8. SNP
    9. UUP
    10. Reform
    11. DUP
    12. SF
    13. WPGB

    I struggle most with the order of 6, 7 and 8. In another mood they might be the opposite way round.

    I wouldn’t include the nationalist or NI parties, voting in England as I am.

    So for me probably:

    1. Green
    2. Labour
    3. LD
    4. Con
    5. WPGB
    6. Reform

    4-6 fall a long way behind NOTA/DNV though.
    I included the nationalist and NI ones on the basis it was useful to benchmark against the GB wide parties, so without those I am:

    1. LD
    2. Lab
    3. Green
    4. Con
    5. Reform
    6. WPGB

    I think Farage is dangerous but I find Galloway more so (and even more irritating).
  • novanova Posts: 692
    rkelk said:

    Afternoon all. Long time lurker, first time poster! Interesting bbc interview from Wes Streeting today on the number of undecided voters and the danger of complacency.

    For Labour to be assured of a majority, they really need to combat the "super majority" talk:

    “I don’t believe the opinion polls for a moment," Streeting says.

    “I think what the Conservative Party is doing, quite cynically at the moment, is to say to people ‘if you want change, you don’t have to bother going out and voting for it, you can put your feet up, or you can vote for one of the smaller parties and their wish list of promises, because Labour’s going to win anyway’," Streeting adds.

    Welcome to posting!

    I do wonder if any of this had much effect. I'd have thought that it would be incredibly difficult to direct this kind of message strictly at the people you want it to impact.

    By suggesting the election is over, the Tories may be as likely to get people switching to Reform, or even just staying at home.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,803
    rcs1000 said:

    John Cleese has backed his local Labour candidate because the Conservative government “is the worst of my lifetime”. The Monty Python and Fawlty Towers star backed Daniel Aldridge in his hometown of Weston-super-Mare.

    I thought he lived in the Caribbean?

    I thought he was backing Reform?
    I was told on here the other day that he backed the rump SDP.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 508

    Here's a comparison that makes Biden look relatively good. Relatively.
    "Biden's 37% approval rating positively sparkles next to Canadian PM Justin Trudeau (30%), German Chancellor Olaf Scholz (25%), U.K. Prime Minister Rishi Sunak (25%), French President Emmanuel Macron (21%) and Japanese PM Fumio Kishida (13%), per Morning Consult's tracker."
    source: https://www.axios.com/2024/06/13/g7-summit-2024-unpopular-leaders-biden-trudeau

    Italy's Meloni leads the G7, at 42 percent: https://pro.morningconsult.com/trackers/global-leader-approval

    (For the record, I have never thought highly of Biden, so that may explain why I don't see a large decline in his abilities in recent years. He has always had problems speaking, partly, it is claimed, because of his youthful stuttering.)

    It's a matter of record that he has a speech impediment. Really his time was 30 years ago, not sure that either candidate is showing that much evidence of cognitive decline, Biden still appears sharp at big events and how could you tell with Trump, he's always rambled.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I’m old enough to remember when I said “I suspect the Chinese are trying to sabotage Boeing” and the usual PB midwits scoffed at my conspiracy theorising

    Et voila

    “F.A.A. Investigating How Counterfeit Titanium Got Into Boeing and Airbus Jets
    The material, which was purchased from a little-known Chinese company, was sold with falsified documents and used in parts that went into jets from both manufacturers.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/14/us/politics/boeing-airbus-titanium-faa.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb

    I propose a new PB rule: LEON IS RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING (usually a year ahead of everyone else) APART FROM LIZ TRUSS AND WHAT3WORDS

    Yeah, it's not as if this has never happened before with aerospace:

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/rockets/a27334344/nasa-rocket-fraud/

    The metals market has always been a little wild west.
    At this point, any one who DOESN’T suspect China must seriously lack mental agility. Ah, I see the problem

    “Boeing's problems have become an opportunity for China's plane manufacturer
    COMAC is looking to pass both Boeing and Airbus in the international market”

    https://theweek.com/business/boeing-opportunity-china-plane-manufacturer
    Do fuck off, fool.

    I am well aware of the international aviation market. But your ability to add one and one and get eight thousand, three hundred and twenty-seven point six is quite something.

    Not everything is a conspiracy, you know.
    If @Leon knew about aviation, he'd remember this one

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232


    "The origins of the crash disk are uncertain because of significant irregularities and gaps, noted in the NTSB report, in the manufacturing records of GE Aircraft Engines (GEAE) and its suppliers.[1]: 80  Records found after the accident indicated that two rough-machined forgings having the serial number of the crash disk had been routed through GEAE manufacturing. Records indicated that Alcoa supplied GE with TIMET titanium forgings for one disk with the serial number of the crash disk. Some records show that this disk "was rejected for an unsatisfactory ultrasonic indication", that an outside laboratory performed an ultrasound inspection of this disk, that this disk was subsequently returned to GE, and that this disk should have been scrapped. The FAA report stated, "There is no record of warranty claim by GEAE for defective material and no record of any credit for GEAE processed by Alcoa or TIMET".[1]: 53–55 

    GE records of the second disk having the serial number of the crash disk indicate that it was made with an RMI Titanium Company titanium billet supplied by Alcoa. Research of GE's records showed no other titanium parts were manufactured at GE from this RMI titanium billet during the period of 1969 to 1990. GE records indicate that final finishing and inspection of the crash disk were completed on December 11, 1971. Alcoa records indicate that this RMI titanium billet was first cut in 1972 and that all forgings made from this material were for airframe parts.[1]: 55  If the Alcoa records were accurate, the RMI titanium could not have been used to manufacture the crash disk, indicating that the initially rejected TIMET disk with "an unsatisfactory ultrasonic indication" was the crash disk."


    Which is a remarkably quiet way of saying fraudulent paperwork.
    The aviation industry is having a nightmare with fake parts, and has done for a few years now. Almost all of the fakes are originating from China.

    There were a bunch picked up in the sandpit a few months ago, after customs wondered why ‘new’ parts for Western planes were originating from China and heading to Africa.

    I would suspect that many other industries are suffering from the same issues, but aviation is much more open about publicising their problems.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder what it first was about the Putinist racist Nigel Farage that first attracted Putinguy into supporting him?

    I reckon it might be to do with Nige dabbling with the Jew hatred.

    Nigel Farage has been condemned by the UK’s main Jewish groups and MPs for repeatedly using language and themes associated with far-right antisemitic conspiracy theories, something for which he has been previously criticised.

    The Board of Deputies of British Jews said Farage’s airing of claims about plots to undermine national governments, and his references to Goldman Sachs and the financier George Soros, showed he was seeking to “trade in dog whistles”.

    The Brexit party leader, who has been criticised for agreeing to interviews with openly antisemitic US media personalities, was also condemned by the MPs who co-chair the all-party group against antisemitism.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/jewish-groups-and-mps-condemn-nigel-farage-for-antisemitic-dog-whistles

    and

    Nigel Farage has been criticised for referring to “a powerful Jewish lobby” operating in America.

    Mr Farage, who was presenting his phone-in show on the LBC network yesterday, took a call from someone identifying himself as “Ahmed” during a debate on Russian influence in last year’s US presidential election.

    “How come there’s such an issue with Russia, and no one really highlighting AIPAC and the Israeli lobby and their involvement in American politics and elections”, the caller asked.


    https://www.thejc.com/news/nigel-farage-condemned-over-jewish-lobby-comment-hitsicm5
    It is possible to reject anti-Semitism while also noting that the Jewish lobby has an unhealthy influence over Washington politics, making a free debate about Israel almost impossible for ambitious politicians, especially those on the right

    This is not a critique of American Jews as some devious cabal. They are just very good at organising and influencing and have been doing it for decades. Many others could learn from them
    It’s definitely not anti-Semetic to point out that George Soros is, through the Open Society Foundations, funding a lot of the woke nonsense in the US in recent years, including the District Attourneys who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM.

    https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/
    That link, nor https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice , doesn't support your claim that Soros is funding "District Attourneys [sic] who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM."
    Except that he did indeed fund the campaigns of a whole load of DAs who act like I said in practice.
    Feel free to provide some details using reliable sources.

    Soros has donated some money. To say he funded the campaigns exaggerates his input. To describe the DAs in the terms you did is often propaganda, not a fair summary of their actions. But without details, it is difficult to comment.

    One thing Soros's foundation does do is fund attempts to bring Russian war criminals to justice for their acts in Ukraine, as per https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice I would have thought you would welcome such.

    More detail here: https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/newsroom/the-open-society-foundations-in-ukraine Lots of good work!
    Okay then.

    I’ll start with the LA Times:
    https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-prosecutor-campaign-20180523-story.html

    Then CBS News:
    https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/george-soros-district-attorney-campaigns-alameda-contra-costa/

    How’s about the New York Times:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/13/us/politics/george-soros-racial-justice-organizations.html

    …and the New York Post:
    https://nypost.com/2021/12/16/how-george-soros-funded-progressive-das-behind-us-crime-surge/

    Even the Associated Press:
    https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-maine-portland-government-and-politics-crime-2f8ad96c907729dffd2f112d3cf1703a

    That last article:
    PORTLAND, Maine (AP) — A local district attorney’s race in Maine wasn’t generating much attention until a political action committee linked to a deep-pocketed liberal donor with international name recognition suddenly took an interest.

    A super PAC funded by George Soros, the billionaire investor, philanthropist and conspiracy-theory target, dropped $300,000 on behalf of the challenger, dwarfing the $70,000 combined that had been raised by both candidates until then.

    The cash infusion — a stunning sum for a local race in Maine — shows how national groups are seeking to influence district attorney’s contests across the country. The spending highlights a mostly under-the-radar jostling for control of an office that some see as being on the front lines of the movement for criminal justice reforms.

    Left-leaning groups have stepped in to fund candidates who support those reforms, while conservatives are pushing back amid concerns that crime in America’s cities is out of control.”
    So, the issue I have with this is that some of Soros's foundations spend money very widely, and give a *lot* of very small (i.e. $2,000 or less) sums.

    That means that there are a lot of PACs who get their primary funding from - say - Illinois Teachers, and who get a small sum from one of Soros's various bodies. And then suddenly the PAC is characterized as "a political action committee linked to a deep-pocketed liberal donor."

    So, for example, Soros has given very liberally to Jewish charities. They've also (indirectly) given money to people who gave money to Hamas. Do we really believe Soros is backing Hamas?

    When one gives out thousands - or perhaps tens of thousands - of these small donations, ones hand can be seen in anything.

    This is the right wing equivalent of the left wing Facebook posts I get about how a Conservative donor gave money to a political party, and then a company owned by their fund got a contract. And I'm thinking... are you crazy? This is a man with an investment fund and hundreds of holdings... statistically, one of his companies is going to get a government contract at some point.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    edited June 14
    TimS said:

    As we idly speculate on the destruction and rebuilding of the party political system in the UK courtesy of Reform having a good opinion poll, a question.

    Imagine the whole election were decided by everyone having a forced rank-choice vote for all parties, from best to worst. Keeping this to UK parties with at least one seat, how would you vote?

    I struggle a bit with ranking in a couple of places but I think I would do:

    1. Lib Dems
    2. APNI
    3. Labour
    4. SDLP
    5. Plaid
    6. Green
    7. Conservative
    8. SNP
    9. UUP
    10. Reform
    11. DUP
    12. SF
    13. WPGB

    I struggle most with the order of 6, 7 and 8. In another mood they might be the opposite way round.

    Ha! Great question!

    1. LAB
    2. LIB
    3. SDL
    4. ANI
    5. SNP
    6. PLC
    7. GRN
    8. CON
    9. SFN
    10. UUP
    11. REF
    12. DUP
    13. WGB
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161
    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    John Cleese has backed his local Labour candidate because the Conservative government “is the worst of my lifetime”. The Monty Python and Fawlty Towers star backed Daniel Aldridge in his hometown of Weston-super-Mare.

    I thought he lived in the Caribbean?

    I thought he was backing Reform?
    I was told on here the other day that he backed the rump SDP.
    Ah, that was probably what I was thinking of.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I’m old enough to remember when I said “I suspect the Chinese are trying to sabotage Boeing” and the usual PB midwits scoffed at my conspiracy theorising

    Et voila

    “F.A.A. Investigating How Counterfeit Titanium Got Into Boeing and Airbus Jets
    The material, which was purchased from a little-known Chinese company, was sold with falsified documents and used in parts that went into jets from both manufacturers.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/14/us/politics/boeing-airbus-titanium-faa.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb

    I propose a new PB rule: LEON IS RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING (usually a year ahead of everyone else) APART FROM LIZ TRUSS AND WHAT3WORDS

    Yeah, it's not as if this has never happened before with aerospace:

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/rockets/a27334344/nasa-rocket-fraud/

    The metals market has always been a little wild west.
    At this point, any one who DOESN’T suspect China must seriously lack mental agility. Ah, I see the problem

    “Boeing's problems have become an opportunity for China's plane manufacturer
    COMAC is looking to pass both Boeing and Airbus in the international market”

    https://theweek.com/business/boeing-opportunity-china-plane-manufacturer
    Do fuck off, fool.

    I am well aware of the international aviation market. But your ability to add one and one and get eight thousand, three hundred and twenty-seven point six is quite something.

    Not everything is a conspiracy, you know.
    If @Leon knew about aviation, he'd remember this one

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232


    "The origins of the crash disk are uncertain because of significant irregularities and gaps, noted in the NTSB report, in the manufacturing records of GE Aircraft Engines (GEAE) and its suppliers.[1]: 80  Records found after the accident indicated that two rough-machined forgings having the serial number of the crash disk had been routed through GEAE manufacturing. Records indicated that Alcoa supplied GE with TIMET titanium forgings for one disk with the serial number of the crash disk. Some records show that this disk "was rejected for an unsatisfactory ultrasonic indication", that an outside laboratory performed an ultrasound inspection of this disk, that this disk was subsequently returned to GE, and that this disk should have been scrapped. The FAA report stated, "There is no record of warranty claim by GEAE for defective material and no record of any credit for GEAE processed by Alcoa or TIMET".[1]: 53–55 

    GE records of the second disk having the serial number of the crash disk indicate that it was made with an RMI Titanium Company titanium billet supplied by Alcoa. Research of GE's records showed no other titanium parts were manufactured at GE from this RMI titanium billet during the period of 1969 to 1990. GE records indicate that final finishing and inspection of the crash disk were completed on December 11, 1971. Alcoa records indicate that this RMI titanium billet was first cut in 1972 and that all forgings made from this material were for airframe parts.[1]: 55  If the Alcoa records were accurate, the RMI titanium could not have been used to manufacture the crash disk, indicating that the initially rejected TIMET disk with "an unsatisfactory ultrasonic indication" was the crash disk."


    Which is a remarkably quiet way of saying fraudulent paperwork.
    The aviation industry is having a nightmare with fake parts, and has done for a few years now. Almost all of the fakes are originating from China.

    There were a bunch picked up in the sandpit a few months ago, after customs wondered why ‘new’ parts for Western planes were originating from China and heading to Africa.

    I would suspect that many other industries are suffering from the same issues, but aviation is much more open about publicising their problems.
    TBF, it's another business technique China has borrowed/stolen from the west and perfected.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unapproved_aircraft_part#History
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,994
    .

    JohnO said:

    tlg86 said:
    It will be fascinating to see how many of the always Conservative but never Farage Tories bend the knee once Farage is their leader.
    Well I fucking won't.
    And I won’t fucking either.
    Neither will I.
    Ditto.
    You've already transformed into a raging trot!

    Planning de-restriction? "I'm with Keir here!"
    Yeah, supporting deregulation and a lifting of restrictions is so illiberal isn't it.

    Imagine a right winger wanting lifting of economic restrictions.

    The introduction of the planning regime was illiberal nonsense that was one of the worst decisions of the Attlee government.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,662

    John Cleese has backed his local Labour candidate because the Conservative government “is the worst of my lifetime”. The Monty Python and Fawlty Towers star backed Daniel Aldridge in his hometown of Weston-super-Mare.

    I thought he lived in the Caribbean?

    Overseas voters are allowed.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder what it first was about the Putinist racist Nigel Farage that first attracted Putinguy into supporting him?

    I reckon it might be to do with Nige dabbling with the Jew hatred.

    Nigel Farage has been condemned by the UK’s main Jewish groups and MPs for repeatedly using language and themes associated with far-right antisemitic conspiracy theories, something for which he has been previously criticised.

    The Board of Deputies of British Jews said Farage’s airing of claims about plots to undermine national governments, and his references to Goldman Sachs and the financier George Soros, showed he was seeking to “trade in dog whistles”.

    The Brexit party leader, who has been criticised for agreeing to interviews with openly antisemitic US media personalities, was also condemned by the MPs who co-chair the all-party group against antisemitism.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/jewish-groups-and-mps-condemn-nigel-farage-for-antisemitic-dog-whistles

    and

    Nigel Farage has been criticised for referring to “a powerful Jewish lobby” operating in America.

    Mr Farage, who was presenting his phone-in show on the LBC network yesterday, took a call from someone identifying himself as “Ahmed” during a debate on Russian influence in last year’s US presidential election.

    “How come there’s such an issue with Russia, and no one really highlighting AIPAC and the Israeli lobby and their involvement in American politics and elections”, the caller asked.


    https://www.thejc.com/news/nigel-farage-condemned-over-jewish-lobby-comment-hitsicm5
    It is possible to reject anti-Semitism while also noting that the Jewish lobby has an unhealthy influence over Washington politics, making a free debate about Israel almost impossible for ambitious politicians, especially those on the right

    This is not a critique of American Jews as some devious cabal. They are just very good at organising and influencing and have been doing it for decades. Many others could learn from them
    It’s definitely not anti-Semetic to point out that George Soros is, through the Open Society Foundations, funding a lot of the woke nonsense in the US in recent years, including the District Attourneys who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM.

    https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/
    That link, nor https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice , doesn't support your claim that Soros is funding "District Attourneys [sic] who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM."
    Except that he did indeed fund the campaigns of a whole load of DAs who act like I said in practice.
    Feel free to provide some details using reliable sources.

    Soros has donated some money. To say he funded the campaigns exaggerates his input. To describe the DAs in the terms you did is often propaganda, not a fair summary of their actions. But without details, it is difficult to comment.

    One thing Soros's foundation does do is fund attempts to bring Russian war criminals to justice for their acts in Ukraine, as per https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice I would have thought you would welcome such.

    More detail here: https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/newsroom/the-open-society-foundations-in-ukraine Lots of good work!
    Okay then.

    I’ll start with the LA Times:
    https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-prosecutor-campaign-20180523-story.html

    Then CBS News:
    https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/george-soros-district-attorney-campaigns-alameda-contra-costa/

    How’s about the New York Times:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/13/us/politics/george-soros-racial-justice-organizations.html

    …and the New York Post:
    https://nypost.com/2021/12/16/how-george-soros-funded-progressive-das-behind-us-crime-surge/

    Even the Associated Press:
    https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-maine-portland-government-and-politics-crime-2f8ad96c907729dffd2f112d3cf1703a

    That last article:
    PORTLAND, Maine (AP) — A local district attorney’s race in Maine wasn’t generating much attention until a political action committee linked to a deep-pocketed liberal donor with international name recognition suddenly took an interest.

    A super PAC funded by George Soros, the billionaire investor, philanthropist and conspiracy-theory target, dropped $300,000 on behalf of the challenger, dwarfing the $70,000 combined that had been raised by both candidates until then.

    The cash infusion — a stunning sum for a local race in Maine — shows how national groups are seeking to influence district attorney’s contests across the country. The spending highlights a mostly under-the-radar jostling for control of an office that some see as being on the front lines of the movement for criminal justice reforms.

    Left-leaning groups have stepped in to fund candidates who support those reforms, while conservatives are pushing back amid concerns that crime in America’s cities is out of control.”
    So, the issue I have with this is that some of Soros's foundations spend money very widely, and give a *lot* of very small (i.e. $2,000 or less) sums.

    That means that there are a lot of PACs who get their primary funding from - say - Illinois Teachers, and who get a small sum from one of Soros's various bodies. And then suddenly the PAC is characterized as "a political action committee linked to a deep-pocketed liberal donor."

    So, for example, Soros has given very liberally to Jewish charities. They've also (indirectly) given money to people who gave money to Hamas. Do we really believe Soros is backing Hamas?

    When one gives out thousands - or perhaps tens of thousands - of these small donations, ones hand can be seen in anything.

    This is the right wing equivalent of the left wing Facebook posts I get about how a Conservative donor gave money to a political party, and then a company owned by their fund got a contract. And I'm thinking... are you crazy? This is a man with an investment fund and hundreds of holdings... statistically, one of his companies is going to get a government contract at some point.
    That AP article talks about a $300k donation from Soros to a single DA campaign.

    Of all the US news outlets, I’d expect the AP (like the BBC) to avoid over-editorialising and stick to the facts.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020
    edited June 14
    Foxy said:

    John Cleese has backed his local Labour candidate because the Conservative government “is the worst of my lifetime”. The Monty Python and Fawlty Towers star backed Daniel Aldridge in his hometown of Weston-super-Mare.

    I thought he lived in the Caribbean?

    Overseas voters are allowed.
    Yes, I know that, we talked about it the other day.

    It was more the "local" candidate claim made me wonder if he had relocated back to the UK after he went off in a quite a public huff to I think St Nevis. Or could just be bad journalism.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    Unintended consequences, no. 100000023.

    Viral metagenome reveals microbial hosts and the associated antibiotic resistome on microplastics
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s44221-024-00249-y
    Microplastics provide a unique niche for viruses, promoting viral interactions with hosts and accelerating the rapid ‘horizontal’ spread of antibiotic resistance genes (ARGs). Currently, however, there is a lack of knowledge concerning the main drivers for viral distribution on microplastics and on the resulting patterns of viral biogeographic distributions and the spread of the associated ARGs. Here we performed metagenomic and virus enrichment-based viromic sequencings on both polyethylene and polypropylene microplastics along a river. Experimental results show that Proteobacteria, Firmicutes, Actinobacteria and Cyanobacteria were the potential hosts of viruses on microplastics, but only approximately 4.1% of viral variations were associated with a bacterial community. Notably, two shared ARGs and six metal resistance genes were identified in both viral and their host bacterial genomes, indicating the occurrence of horizontal gene transfer between viruses and bacteria. Furthermore, microplastics introduce more distinctive elements to viral ecology, fostering viral diversification and virus–host linkage while refraining from an escalated level of horizontal gene transfer of ARGs in contrast to natural matrixes. Our study provides comprehensive profiles of viral communities, virus-related ARGs and their driving factors on microplastics, highlighting how these anthropogenic niches provide unique interfaces that comprise highly defined viral ecological features in the environment.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    John Cleese has backed his local Labour candidate because the Conservative government “is the worst of my lifetime”. The Monty Python and Fawlty Towers star backed Daniel Aldridge in his hometown of Weston-super-Mare.

    I thought he lived in the Caribbean?

    I thought he was backing Reform?
    I was told on here the other day that he backed the rump SDP.
    Cleese was a big Liberal Party supporter back in the day, even appearing in an 'Alliance' PPB. Wonder what caused him to spurn the current Lib Dems.
  • DoubleDutchDoubleDutch Posts: 161

    Almost half of Conservative voters want Rishi Sunak to strike a co-operation deal with Reform UK, a poll has found.

    The survey by BMG for the i newspaper found that 46 per cent of Tory voters supported the two parties co-operating.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/14/general-election-latest-news-sunak-starmer-farage-reform/

    Not going to happen. Farage scents blood and wants to kill them off.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,784
    TimS said:

    As we idly speculate on the destruction and rebuilding of the party political system in the UK courtesy of Reform having a good opinion poll, a question.

    Imagine the whole election were decided by everyone having a forced rank-choice vote for all parties, from best to worst. Keeping this to UK parties with at least one seat, how would you vote?

    I struggle a bit with ranking in a couple of places but I think I would do:

    1. Lib Dems
    2. APNI
    3. Labour
    4. SDLP
    5. Plaid
    6. Green
    7. Conservative
    8. SNP
    9. UUP
    10. Reform
    11. DUP
    12. SF
    13. WPGB

    I struggle most with the order of 6, 7 and 8. In another mood they might be the opposite way round.

    Great question!

    1. Labour
    2. SDLP
    3. Green
    4. SNP
    5. Sinn Fein
    6. Plaid
    7. APNI
    8. Lib Dems
    9. WPGB
    10. UUP
    11. Conservatives
    12. DUP
    13. Reform.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder what it first was about the Putinist racist Nigel Farage that first attracted Putinguy into supporting him?

    I reckon it might be to do with Nige dabbling with the Jew hatred.

    Nigel Farage has been condemned by the UK’s main Jewish groups and MPs for repeatedly using language and themes associated with far-right antisemitic conspiracy theories, something for which he has been previously criticised.

    The Board of Deputies of British Jews said Farage’s airing of claims about plots to undermine national governments, and his references to Goldman Sachs and the financier George Soros, showed he was seeking to “trade in dog whistles”.

    The Brexit party leader, who has been criticised for agreeing to interviews with openly antisemitic US media personalities, was also condemned by the MPs who co-chair the all-party group against antisemitism.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/jewish-groups-and-mps-condemn-nigel-farage-for-antisemitic-dog-whistles

    and

    Nigel Farage has been criticised for referring to “a powerful Jewish lobby” operating in America.

    Mr Farage, who was presenting his phone-in show on the LBC network yesterday, took a call from someone identifying himself as “Ahmed” during a debate on Russian influence in last year’s US presidential election.

    “How come there’s such an issue with Russia, and no one really highlighting AIPAC and the Israeli lobby and their involvement in American politics and elections”, the caller asked.


    https://www.thejc.com/news/nigel-farage-condemned-over-jewish-lobby-comment-hitsicm5
    It is possible to reject anti-Semitism while also noting that the Jewish lobby has an unhealthy influence over Washington politics, making a free debate about Israel almost impossible for ambitious politicians, especially those on the right

    This is not a critique of American Jews as some devious cabal. They are just very good at organising and influencing and have been doing it for decades. Many others could learn from them
    It’s definitely not anti-Semetic to point out that George Soros is, through the Open Society Foundations, funding a lot of the woke nonsense in the US in recent years, including the District Attourneys who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM.

    https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/
    That link, nor https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice , doesn't support your claim that Soros is funding "District Attourneys [sic] who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM."
    Except that he did indeed fund the campaigns of a whole load of DAs who act like I said in practice.
    Feel free to provide some details using reliable sources.

    Soros has donated some money. To say he funded the campaigns exaggerates his input. To describe the DAs in the terms you did is often propaganda, not a fair summary of their actions. But without details, it is difficult to comment.

    One thing Soros's foundation does do is fund attempts to bring Russian war criminals to justice for their acts in Ukraine, as per https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice I would have thought you would welcome such.

    More detail here: https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/newsroom/the-open-society-foundations-in-ukraine Lots of good work!
    Okay then.

    I’ll start with the LA Times:
    https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-prosecutor-campaign-20180523-story.html

    Then CBS News:
    https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/george-soros-district-attorney-campaigns-alameda-contra-costa/

    How’s about the New York Times:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/13/us/politics/george-soros-racial-justice-organizations.html

    …and the New York Post:
    https://nypost.com/2021/12/16/how-george-soros-funded-progressive-das-behind-us-crime-surge/

    Even the Associated Press:
    https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-maine-portland-government-and-politics-crime-2f8ad96c907729dffd2f112d3cf1703a

    That last article:
    PORTLAND, Maine (AP) — A local district attorney’s race in Maine wasn’t generating much attention until a political action committee linked to a deep-pocketed liberal donor with international name recognition suddenly took an interest.

    A super PAC funded by George Soros, the billionaire investor, philanthropist and conspiracy-theory target, dropped $300,000 on behalf of the challenger, dwarfing the $70,000 combined that had been raised by both candidates until then.

    The cash infusion — a stunning sum for a local race in Maine — shows how national groups are seeking to influence district attorney’s contests across the country. The spending highlights a mostly under-the-radar jostling for control of an office that some see as being on the front lines of the movement for criminal justice reforms.

    Left-leaning groups have stepped in to fund candidates who support those reforms, while conservatives are pushing back amid concerns that crime in America’s cities is out of control.”
    So, the issue I have with this is that some of Soros's foundations spend money very widely, and give a *lot* of very small (i.e. $2,000 or less) sums.

    That means that there are a lot of PACs who get their primary funding from - say - Illinois Teachers, and who get a small sum from one of Soros's various bodies. And then suddenly the PAC is characterized as "a political action committee linked to a deep-pocketed liberal donor."

    So, for example, Soros has given very liberally to Jewish charities. They've also (indirectly) given money to people who gave money to Hamas. Do we really believe Soros is backing Hamas?

    When one gives out thousands - or perhaps tens of thousands - of these small donations, ones hand can be seen in anything.

    This is the right wing equivalent of the left wing Facebook posts I get about how a Conservative donor gave money to a political party, and then a company owned by their fund got a contract. And I'm thinking... are you crazy? This is a man with an investment fund and hundreds of holdings... statistically, one of his companies is going to get a government contract at some point.
    Solve the whole thing by making donation limits £1000 or in the US $2000 per person or organisation per year. If they want to donate beyond that they can do so with time rather than cash.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    Dopermean said:

    Here's a comparison that makes Biden look relatively good. Relatively.
    "Biden's 37% approval rating positively sparkles next to Canadian PM Justin Trudeau (30%), German Chancellor Olaf Scholz (25%), U.K. Prime Minister Rishi Sunak (25%), French President Emmanuel Macron (21%) and Japanese PM Fumio Kishida (13%), per Morning Consult's tracker."
    source: https://www.axios.com/2024/06/13/g7-summit-2024-unpopular-leaders-biden-trudeau

    Italy's Meloni leads the G7, at 42 percent: https://pro.morningconsult.com/trackers/global-leader-approval

    (For the record, I have never thought highly of Biden, so that may explain why I don't see a large decline in his abilities in recent years. He has always had problems speaking, partly, it is claimed, because of his youthful stuttering.)

    It's a matter of record that he has a speech impediment. Really his time was 30 years ago, not sure that either candidate is showing that much evidence of cognitive decline, Biden still appears sharp at big events and how could you tell with Trump, he's always rambled.
    With Joe it's the physical frailty I notice. His so called senility is more Trumpist talking point than anything else imo.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,270
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I’m old enough to remember when I said “I suspect the Chinese are trying to sabotage Boeing” and the usual PB midwits scoffed at my conspiracy theorising

    Et voila

    “F.A.A. Investigating How Counterfeit Titanium Got Into Boeing and Airbus Jets
    The material, which was purchased from a little-known Chinese company, was sold with falsified documents and used in parts that went into jets from both manufacturers.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/14/us/politics/boeing-airbus-titanium-faa.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb

    I propose a new PB rule: LEON IS RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING (usually a year ahead of everyone else) APART FROM LIZ TRUSS AND WHAT3WORDS

    Yeah, it's not as if this has never happened before with aerospace:

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/rockets/a27334344/nasa-rocket-fraud/

    The metals market has always been a little wild west.
    At this point, any one who DOESN’T suspect China must seriously lack mental agility. Ah, I see the problem

    “Boeing's problems have become an opportunity for China's plane manufacturer
    COMAC is looking to pass both Boeing and Airbus in the international market”

    https://theweek.com/business/boeing-opportunity-china-plane-manufacturer
    Do fuck off, fool.

    I am well aware of the international aviation market. But your ability to add one and one and get eight thousand, three hundred and twenty-seven point six is quite something.

    Not everything is a conspiracy, you know.
    If @Leon knew about aviation, he'd remember this one

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232


    "The origins of the crash disk are uncertain because of significant irregularities and gaps, noted in the NTSB report, in the manufacturing records of GE Aircraft Engines (GEAE) and its suppliers.[1]: 80  Records found after the accident indicated that two rough-machined forgings having the serial number of the crash disk had been routed through GEAE manufacturing. Records indicated that Alcoa supplied GE with TIMET titanium forgings for one disk with the serial number of the crash disk. Some records show that this disk "was rejected for an unsatisfactory ultrasonic indication", that an outside laboratory performed an ultrasound inspection of this disk, that this disk was subsequently returned to GE, and that this disk should have been scrapped. The FAA report stated, "There is no record of warranty claim by GEAE for defective material and no record of any credit for GEAE processed by Alcoa or TIMET".[1]: 53–55 

    GE records of the second disk having the serial number of the crash disk indicate that it was made with an RMI Titanium Company titanium billet supplied by Alcoa. Research of GE's records showed no other titanium parts were manufactured at GE from this RMI titanium billet during the period of 1969 to 1990. GE records indicate that final finishing and inspection of the crash disk were completed on December 11, 1971. Alcoa records indicate that this RMI titanium billet was first cut in 1972 and that all forgings made from this material were for airframe parts.[1]: 55  If the Alcoa records were accurate, the RMI titanium could not have been used to manufacture the crash disk, indicating that the initially rejected TIMET disk with "an unsatisfactory ultrasonic indication" was the crash disk."


    Which is a remarkably quiet way of saying fraudulent paperwork.
    The aviation industry is having a nightmare with fake parts, and has done for a few years now. Almost all of the fakes are originating from China.

    There were a bunch picked up in the sandpit a few months ago, after customs wondered why ‘new’ parts for Western planes were originating from China and heading to Africa.

    I would suspect that many other industries are suffering from the same issues, but aviation is much more open about publicising their problems.
    TBF, it's another business technique China has borrowed/stolen from the west and perfected.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unapproved_aircraft_part#History
    Yup.

    Take a simple bolt. Say an M8 stainless. Pennies for the regular hardware store one. Aviation grade, with all the certifications?

    Better markup than selling hard drugs.
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,293

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    John Cleese has backed his local Labour candidate because the Conservative government “is the worst of my lifetime”. The Monty Python and Fawlty Towers star backed Daniel Aldridge in his hometown of Weston-super-Mare.

    I thought he lived in the Caribbean?

    I thought he was backing Reform?
    I was told on here the other day that he backed the rump SDP.
    Cleese was a big Liberal Party supporter back in the day, even appearing in an 'Alliance' PPB. Wonder what caused him to spurn the current Lib Dems.
    Brexit.
  • novanova Posts: 692

    Almost half of Conservative voters want Rishi Sunak to strike a co-operation deal with Reform UK, a poll has found.

    The survey by BMG for the i newspaper found that 46 per cent of Tory voters supported the two parties co-operating.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/14/general-election-latest-news-sunak-starmer-farage-reform/

    Half of 2019 voters is 21%. Half of current Tory voters is 9%. So matters a lot which of those it is.
    It appears to be 46% of current Tory voters.

    However it looks like 71% of former Tory 2019 voters, so somewhere between the two figures you quoted.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder what it first was about the Putinist racist Nigel Farage that first attracted Putinguy into supporting him?

    I reckon it might be to do with Nige dabbling with the Jew hatred.

    Nigel Farage has been condemned by the UK’s main Jewish groups and MPs for repeatedly using language and themes associated with far-right antisemitic conspiracy theories, something for which he has been previously criticised.

    The Board of Deputies of British Jews said Farage’s airing of claims about plots to undermine national governments, and his references to Goldman Sachs and the financier George Soros, showed he was seeking to “trade in dog whistles”.

    The Brexit party leader, who has been criticised for agreeing to interviews with openly antisemitic US media personalities, was also condemned by the MPs who co-chair the all-party group against antisemitism.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/jewish-groups-and-mps-condemn-nigel-farage-for-antisemitic-dog-whistles

    and

    Nigel Farage has been criticised for referring to “a powerful Jewish lobby” operating in America.

    Mr Farage, who was presenting his phone-in show on the LBC network yesterday, took a call from someone identifying himself as “Ahmed” during a debate on Russian influence in last year’s US presidential election.

    “How come there’s such an issue with Russia, and no one really highlighting AIPAC and the Israeli lobby and their involvement in American politics and elections”, the caller asked.


    https://www.thejc.com/news/nigel-farage-condemned-over-jewish-lobby-comment-hitsicm5
    It is possible to reject anti-Semitism while also noting that the Jewish lobby has an unhealthy influence over Washington politics, making a free debate about Israel almost impossible for ambitious politicians, especially those on the right

    This is not a critique of American Jews as some devious cabal. They are just very good at organising and influencing and have been doing it for decades. Many others could learn from them
    It’s definitely not anti-Semetic to point out that George Soros is, through the Open Society Foundations, funding a lot of the woke nonsense in the US in recent years, including the District Attourneys who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM.

    https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/
    That link, nor https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice , doesn't support your claim that Soros is funding "District Attourneys [sic] who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM."
    Except that he did indeed fund the campaigns of a whole load of DAs who act like I said in practice.
    Feel free to provide some details using reliable sources.

    Soros has donated some money. To say he funded the campaigns exaggerates his input. To describe the DAs in the terms you did is often propaganda, not a fair summary of their actions. But without details, it is difficult to comment.

    One thing Soros's foundation does do is fund attempts to bring Russian war criminals to justice for their acts in Ukraine, as per https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice I would have thought you would welcome such.

    More detail here: https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/newsroom/the-open-society-foundations-in-ukraine Lots of good work!
    Okay then.

    I’ll start with the LA Times:
    https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-prosecutor-campaign-20180523-story.html

    Then CBS News:
    https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/george-soros-district-attorney-campaigns-alameda-contra-costa/

    How’s about the New York Times:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/13/us/politics/george-soros-racial-justice-organizations.html

    …and the New York Post:
    https://nypost.com/2021/12/16/how-george-soros-funded-progressive-das-behind-us-crime-surge/

    Even the Associated Press:
    https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-maine-portland-government-and-politics-crime-2f8ad96c907729dffd2f112d3cf1703a

    That last article:
    PORTLAND, Maine (AP) — A local district attorney’s race in Maine wasn’t generating much attention until a political action committee linked to a deep-pocketed liberal donor with international name recognition suddenly took an interest.

    A super PAC funded by George Soros, the billionaire investor, philanthropist and conspiracy-theory target, dropped $300,000 on behalf of the challenger, dwarfing the $70,000 combined that had been raised by both candidates until then.

    The cash infusion — a stunning sum for a local race in Maine — shows how national groups are seeking to influence district attorney’s contests across the country. The spending highlights a mostly under-the-radar jostling for control of an office that some see as being on the front lines of the movement for criminal justice reforms.

    Left-leaning groups have stepped in to fund candidates who support those reforms, while conservatives are pushing back amid concerns that crime in America’s cities is out of control.”
    So, the issue I have with this is that some of Soros's foundations spend money very widely, and give a *lot* of very small (i.e. $2,000 or less) sums.

    That means that there are a lot of PACs who get their primary funding from - say - Illinois Teachers, and who get a small sum from one of Soros's various bodies. And then suddenly the PAC is characterized as "a political action committee linked to a deep-pocketed liberal donor."

    So, for example, Soros has given very liberally to Jewish charities. They've also (indirectly) given money to people who gave money to Hamas. Do we really believe Soros is backing Hamas?

    When one gives out thousands - or perhaps tens of thousands - of these small donations, ones hand can be seen in anything.

    This is the right wing equivalent of the left wing Facebook posts I get about how a Conservative donor gave money to a political party, and then a company owned by their fund got a contract. And I'm thinking... are you crazy? This is a man with an investment fund and hundreds of holdings... statistically, one of his companies is going to get a government contract at some point.
    Solve the whole thing by making donation limits £1000 or in the US $2000 per person or organisation per year. If they want to donate beyond that they can do so with time rather than cash.
    That was the case, until the Supreme Court messed up with Citizens United vs FEC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,994
    edited June 14
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    One reason bbc might want Farage on the telly. He’s far more popular than all the other parties combined. With da yoot

    “Farage is absolutely killing it on TikTok. So many fan edits of him, and his actual account has 662k followers, more than double the combined total for Labour (198k), Tories (61k), Greens (40k), and LibDems (21k).

    Something is definitely happening out there…”

    https://x.com/mikediplockre/status/1801610769093546063?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Odds on chants of Ooooh Nigel Farage chants at Glastonbury?
    No. The glasto crowd is far too told. It probably averages age 35?

    The generation after them, and thereafter, are the kids who will shift Europe hard right
    Leon's breaking into song with Tomorrow Belongs To Me.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,784

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    John Cleese has backed his local Labour candidate because the Conservative government “is the worst of my lifetime”. The Monty Python and Fawlty Towers star backed Daniel Aldridge in his hometown of Weston-super-Mare.

    I thought he lived in the Caribbean?

    I thought he was backing Reform?
    I was told on here the other day that he backed the rump SDP.
    Cleese was a big Liberal Party supporter back in the day, even appearing in an 'Alliance' PPB. Wonder what caused him to spurn the current Lib Dems.
    Brexit.
    At some point John Cleese and Basil Faulty became the same person.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020
    edited June 14
    kinabalu said:

    Dopermean said:

    Here's a comparison that makes Biden look relatively good. Relatively.
    "Biden's 37% approval rating positively sparkles next to Canadian PM Justin Trudeau (30%), German Chancellor Olaf Scholz (25%), U.K. Prime Minister Rishi Sunak (25%), French President Emmanuel Macron (21%) and Japanese PM Fumio Kishida (13%), per Morning Consult's tracker."
    source: https://www.axios.com/2024/06/13/g7-summit-2024-unpopular-leaders-biden-trudeau

    Italy's Meloni leads the G7, at 42 percent: https://pro.morningconsult.com/trackers/global-leader-approval

    (For the record, I have never thought highly of Biden, so that may explain why I don't see a large decline in his abilities in recent years. He has always had problems speaking, partly, it is claimed, because of his youthful stuttering.)

    It's a matter of record that he has a speech impediment. Really his time was 30 years ago, not sure that either candidate is showing that much evidence of cognitive decline, Biden still appears sharp at big events and how could you tell with Trump, he's always rambled.
    With Joe it's the physical frailty I notice. His so called senility is more Trumpist talking point than anything else imo.
    I think the times he goes hhhmhmhnmegendmngsdfgndfgnnm can be put down to speech impediment.

    However in the past year in particular, he is constantly mixing up countries, their leaders, and even claiming dead people are still leader of a particular country. And does so in a manner where he doesn't then go, oh sorry, I misspoke, I actually meant....And these aren't well I mixed up Turkmenistan with Tajikistan (this is the stuff Trump gets wrong because he is ignorant and doesn't read briefings). Biden is mixing up Iraq and Ukraine.

    Then there is the weird behaviour being lost on stage, wandering off, going to shake somebodies hand again less than 30s after they just did.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,635
    edited June 14
    The only unity Nigel Farage believes in is Unity Mitford.

    "What is it about the murderous dictator [Vladimir Putin] that you admire?" Nicky Campbell asks Reform UK leader Nigel Farage

    "You can recognise the fact that some people are good at what they do even if they have evil intent" Farage responds

    https://bbc.in/45o12w0


    https://x.com/BBCPolitics/status/1801556058638307426
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    edited June 14

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I’m old enough to remember when I said “I suspect the Chinese are trying to sabotage Boeing” and the usual PB midwits scoffed at my conspiracy theorising

    Et voila

    “F.A.A. Investigating How Counterfeit Titanium Got Into Boeing and Airbus Jets
    The material, which was purchased from a little-known Chinese company, was sold with falsified documents and used in parts that went into jets from both manufacturers.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/14/us/politics/boeing-airbus-titanium-faa.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb

    I propose a new PB rule: LEON IS RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING (usually a year ahead of everyone else) APART FROM LIZ TRUSS AND WHAT3WORDS

    Yeah, it's not as if this has never happened before with aerospace:

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/rockets/a27334344/nasa-rocket-fraud/

    The metals market has always been a little wild west.
    At this point, any one who DOESN’T suspect China must seriously lack mental agility. Ah, I see the problem

    “Boeing's problems have become an opportunity for China's plane manufacturer
    COMAC is looking to pass both Boeing and Airbus in the international market”

    https://theweek.com/business/boeing-opportunity-china-plane-manufacturer
    Do fuck off, fool.

    I am well aware of the international aviation market. But your ability to add one and one and get eight thousand, three hundred and twenty-seven point six is quite something.

    Not everything is a conspiracy, you know.
    If @Leon knew about aviation, he'd remember this one

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232


    "The origins of the crash disk are uncertain because of significant irregularities and gaps, noted in the NTSB report, in the manufacturing records of GE Aircraft Engines (GEAE) and its suppliers.[1]: 80  Records found after the accident indicated that two rough-machined forgings having the serial number of the crash disk had been routed through GEAE manufacturing. Records indicated that Alcoa supplied GE with TIMET titanium forgings for one disk with the serial number of the crash disk. Some records show that this disk "was rejected for an unsatisfactory ultrasonic indication", that an outside laboratory performed an ultrasound inspection of this disk, that this disk was subsequently returned to GE, and that this disk should have been scrapped. The FAA report stated, "There is no record of warranty claim by GEAE for defective material and no record of any credit for GEAE processed by Alcoa or TIMET".[1]: 53–55 

    GE records of the second disk having the serial number of the crash disk indicate that it was made with an RMI Titanium Company titanium billet supplied by Alcoa. Research of GE's records showed no other titanium parts were manufactured at GE from this RMI titanium billet during the period of 1969 to 1990. GE records indicate that final finishing and inspection of the crash disk were completed on December 11, 1971. Alcoa records indicate that this RMI titanium billet was first cut in 1972 and that all forgings made from this material were for airframe parts.[1]: 55  If the Alcoa records were accurate, the RMI titanium could not have been used to manufacture the crash disk, indicating that the initially rejected TIMET disk with "an unsatisfactory ultrasonic indication" was the crash disk."


    Which is a remarkably quiet way of saying fraudulent paperwork.
    The aviation industry is having a nightmare with fake parts, and has done for a few years now. Almost all of the fakes are originating from China.

    There were a bunch picked up in the sandpit a few months ago, after customs wondered why ‘new’ parts for Western planes were originating from China and heading to Africa.

    I would suspect that many other industries are suffering from the same issues, but aviation is much more open about publicising their problems.
    TBF, it's another business technique China has borrowed/stolen from the west and perfected.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unapproved_aircraft_part#History
    Yup.

    Take a simple bolt. Say an M8 stainless. Pennies for the regular hardware store one. Aviation grade, with all the certifications?

    Better markup than selling hard drugs.
    The rule of thumb used to be two orders of magnitude.

    Nut and bolt from B&Q. £1 for 10.

    Same nut and bolt, for an aeroplane, with the EASA Form 1*. £10 for 1.

    (*For those who don’t know, the paperwork includes information about the composition of the part, its dimensions and tested strength, the factory and batch number, and can be used to recall faulty parts in future. Yes, every nut and bolt on an aeroplane is individually certified).
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder what it first was about the Putinist racist Nigel Farage that first attracted Putinguy into supporting him?

    I reckon it might be to do with Nige dabbling with the Jew hatred.

    Nigel Farage has been condemned by the UK’s main Jewish groups and MPs for repeatedly using language and themes associated with far-right antisemitic conspiracy theories, something for which he has been previously criticised.

    The Board of Deputies of British Jews said Farage’s airing of claims about plots to undermine national governments, and his references to Goldman Sachs and the financier George Soros, showed he was seeking to “trade in dog whistles”.

    The Brexit party leader, who has been criticised for agreeing to interviews with openly antisemitic US media personalities, was also condemned by the MPs who co-chair the all-party group against antisemitism.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/jewish-groups-and-mps-condemn-nigel-farage-for-antisemitic-dog-whistles

    and

    Nigel Farage has been criticised for referring to “a powerful Jewish lobby” operating in America.

    Mr Farage, who was presenting his phone-in show on the LBC network yesterday, took a call from someone identifying himself as “Ahmed” during a debate on Russian influence in last year’s US presidential election.

    “How come there’s such an issue with Russia, and no one really highlighting AIPAC and the Israeli lobby and their involvement in American politics and elections”, the caller asked.


    https://www.thejc.com/news/nigel-farage-condemned-over-jewish-lobby-comment-hitsicm5
    It is possible to reject anti-Semitism while also noting that the Jewish lobby has an unhealthy influence over Washington politics, making a free debate about Israel almost impossible for ambitious politicians, especially those on the right

    This is not a critique of American Jews as some devious cabal. They are just very good at organising and influencing and have been doing it for decades. Many others could learn from them
    It’s definitely not anti-Semetic to point out that George Soros is, through the Open Society Foundations, funding a lot of the woke nonsense in the US in recent years, including the District Attourneys who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM.

    https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/
    That link, nor https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice , doesn't support your claim that Soros is funding "District Attourneys [sic] who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM."
    Except that he did indeed fund the campaigns of a whole load of DAs who act like I said in practice.
    Feel free to provide some details using reliable sources.

    Soros has donated some money. To say he funded the campaigns exaggerates his input. To describe the DAs in the terms you did is often propaganda, not a fair summary of their actions. But without details, it is difficult to comment.

    One thing Soros's foundation does do is fund attempts to bring Russian war criminals to justice for their acts in Ukraine, as per https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice I would have thought you would welcome such.

    More detail here: https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/newsroom/the-open-society-foundations-in-ukraine Lots of good work!
    Okay then.

    I’ll start with the LA Times:
    https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-prosecutor-campaign-20180523-story.html

    Then CBS News:
    https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/george-soros-district-attorney-campaigns-alameda-contra-costa/

    How’s about the New York Times:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/13/us/politics/george-soros-racial-justice-organizations.html

    …and the New York Post:
    https://nypost.com/2021/12/16/how-george-soros-funded-progressive-das-behind-us-crime-surge/

    Even the Associated Press:
    https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-maine-portland-government-and-politics-crime-2f8ad96c907729dffd2f112d3cf1703a

    That last article:
    PORTLAND, Maine (AP) — A local district attorney’s race in Maine wasn’t generating much attention until a political action committee linked to a deep-pocketed liberal donor with international name recognition suddenly took an interest.

    A super PAC funded by George Soros, the billionaire investor, philanthropist and conspiracy-theory target, dropped $300,000 on behalf of the challenger, dwarfing the $70,000 combined that had been raised by both candidates until then.

    The cash infusion — a stunning sum for a local race in Maine — shows how national groups are seeking to influence district attorney’s contests across the country. The spending highlights a mostly under-the-radar jostling for control of an office that some see as being on the front lines of the movement for criminal justice reforms.

    Left-leaning groups have stepped in to fund candidates who support those reforms, while conservatives are pushing back amid concerns that crime in America’s cities is out of control.”
    So, the issue I have with this is that some of Soros's foundations spend money very widely, and give a *lot* of very small (i.e. $2,000 or less) sums.

    That means that there are a lot of PACs who get their primary funding from - say - Illinois Teachers, and who get a small sum from one of Soros's various bodies. And then suddenly the PAC is characterized as "a political action committee linked to a deep-pocketed liberal donor."

    So, for example, Soros has given very liberally to Jewish charities. They've also (indirectly) given money to people who gave money to Hamas. Do we really believe Soros is backing Hamas?

    When one gives out thousands - or perhaps tens of thousands - of these small donations, ones hand can be seen in anything.

    This is the right wing equivalent of the left wing Facebook posts I get about how a Conservative donor gave money to a political party, and then a company owned by their fund got a contract. And I'm thinking... are you crazy? This is a man with an investment fund and hundreds of holdings... statistically, one of his companies is going to get a government contract at some point.
    That AP article talks about a $300k donation from Soros to a single DA campaign.

    Of all the US news outlets, I’d expect the AP (like the BBC) to avoid over-editorialising and stick to the facts.
    No, it doesn't.

    It talks about a PAC that received funding from Soros.

    The Justice & Public Safety PAC is a big money raiser in progressive judicial circuits. They do $5,000 a plate dinners where wealthy attorneys donate money.

    Now, I don't know exactly what proportion of money comes from one of Soros's Foundations, but I can certainly find out, because the Soros Foundations all publish their donation amounts (which makes them unusually open). PACs themselves almost never publish full donor lists.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,158

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    John Cleese has backed his local Labour candidate because the Conservative government “is the worst of my lifetime”. The Monty Python and Fawlty Towers star backed Daniel Aldridge in his hometown of Weston-super-Mare.

    I thought he lived in the Caribbean?

    I thought he was backing Reform?
    I was told on here the other day that he backed the rump SDP.
    Cleese was a big Liberal Party supporter back in the day, even appearing in an 'Alliance' PPB. Wonder what caused him to spurn the current Lib Dems.
    I find the rump SDP a very bizarre outfit, but they remind me of some very funny electoral broadcasts I think from the rump Liberal Party, sometime not long after the merger.

    They had the production values of what looked like 1980s Open University broadcasts, but with a sweaty bald man sitting in a study armchair, expounding on the history of liberalism against the backdrop of some bookcases. They were very quaintly earnest, by today's standard.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    John Cleese has backed his local Labour candidate because the Conservative government “is the worst of my lifetime”. The Monty Python and Fawlty Towers star backed Daniel Aldridge in his hometown of Weston-super-Mare.

    I thought he lived in the Caribbean?

    I thought he was backing Reform?
    I was told on here the other day that he backed the rump SDP.
    Cleese was a big Liberal Party supporter back in the day, even appearing in an 'Alliance' PPB. Wonder what caused him to spurn the current Lib Dems.
    Brexit.
    At some point John Cleese and Basil Faulty became the same person.
    Maybe they were always the one and the same?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    TimS said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    TimS said:

    As we idly speculate on the destruction and rebuilding of the party political system in the UK courtesy of Reform having a good opinion poll, a question.

    Imagine the whole election were decided by everyone having a forced rank-choice vote for all parties, from best to worst. Keeping this to UK parties with at least one seat, how would you vote?

    I struggle a bit with ranking in a couple of places but I think I would do:

    1. Lib Dems
    2. APNI
    3. Labour
    4. SDLP
    5. Plaid
    6. Green
    7. Conservative
    8. SNP
    9. UUP
    10. Reform
    11. DUP
    12. SF
    13. WPGB

    I struggle most with the order of 6, 7 and 8. In another mood they might be the opposite way round.

    I wouldn’t include the nationalist or NI parties, voting in England as I am.

    So for me probably:

    1. Green
    2. Labour
    3. LD
    4. Con
    5. WPGB
    6. Reform

    4-6 fall a long way behind NOTA/DNV though.
    I included the nationalist and NI ones on the basis it was useful to benchmark against the GB wide parties, so without those I am:

    1. LD
    2. Lab
    3. Green
    4. Con
    5. Reform
    6. WPGB

    I think Farage is dangerous but I find Galloway more so (and even more irritating).
    To turn their trademark triteness back on them, Farage and Galloway are Two Cheeks of the Same Backside.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161
    edited June 14
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder what it first was about the Putinist racist Nigel Farage that first attracted Putinguy into supporting him?

    I reckon it might be to do with Nige dabbling with the Jew hatred.

    Nigel Farage has been condemned by the UK’s main Jewish groups and MPs for repeatedly using language and themes associated with far-right antisemitic conspiracy theories, something for which he has been previously criticised.

    The Board of Deputies of British Jews said Farage’s airing of claims about plots to undermine national governments, and his references to Goldman Sachs and the financier George Soros, showed he was seeking to “trade in dog whistles”.

    The Brexit party leader, who has been criticised for agreeing to interviews with openly antisemitic US media personalities, was also condemned by the MPs who co-chair the all-party group against antisemitism.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/jewish-groups-and-mps-condemn-nigel-farage-for-antisemitic-dog-whistles

    and

    Nigel Farage has been criticised for referring to “a powerful Jewish lobby” operating in America.

    Mr Farage, who was presenting his phone-in show on the LBC network yesterday, took a call from someone identifying himself as “Ahmed” during a debate on Russian influence in last year’s US presidential election.

    “How come there’s such an issue with Russia, and no one really highlighting AIPAC and the Israeli lobby and their involvement in American politics and elections”, the caller asked.


    https://www.thejc.com/news/nigel-farage-condemned-over-jewish-lobby-comment-hitsicm5
    It is possible to reject anti-Semitism while also noting that the Jewish lobby has an unhealthy influence over Washington politics, making a free debate about Israel almost impossible for ambitious politicians, especially those on the right

    This is not a critique of American Jews as some devious cabal. They are just very good at organising and influencing and have been doing it for decades. Many others could learn from them
    It’s definitely not anti-Semetic to point out that George Soros is, through the Open Society Foundations, funding a lot of the woke nonsense in the US in recent years, including the District Attourneys who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM.

    https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/
    That link, nor https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice , doesn't support your claim that Soros is funding "District Attourneys [sic] who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM."
    Except that he did indeed fund the campaigns of a whole load of DAs who act like I said in practice.
    Feel free to provide some details using reliable sources.

    Soros has donated some money. To say he funded the campaigns exaggerates his input. To describe the DAs in the terms you did is often propaganda, not a fair summary of their actions. But without details, it is difficult to comment.

    One thing Soros's foundation does do is fund attempts to bring Russian war criminals to justice for their acts in Ukraine, as per https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice I would have thought you would welcome such.

    More detail here: https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/newsroom/the-open-society-foundations-in-ukraine Lots of good work!
    Okay then.

    I’ll start with the LA Times:
    https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-prosecutor-campaign-20180523-story.html

    Then CBS News:
    https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/george-soros-district-attorney-campaigns-alameda-contra-costa/

    How’s about the New York Times:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/13/us/politics/george-soros-racial-justice-organizations.html

    …and the New York Post:
    https://nypost.com/2021/12/16/how-george-soros-funded-progressive-das-behind-us-crime-surge/

    Even the Associated Press:
    https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-maine-portland-government-and-politics-crime-2f8ad96c907729dffd2f112d3cf1703a

    That last article:
    PORTLAND, Maine (AP) — A local district attorney’s race in Maine wasn’t generating much attention until a political action committee linked to a deep-pocketed liberal donor with international name recognition suddenly took an interest.

    A super PAC funded by George Soros, the billionaire investor, philanthropist and conspiracy-theory target, dropped $300,000 on behalf of the challenger, dwarfing the $70,000 combined that had been raised by both candidates until then.

    The cash infusion — a stunning sum for a local race in Maine — shows how national groups are seeking to influence district attorney’s contests across the country. The spending highlights a mostly under-the-radar jostling for control of an office that some see as being on the front lines of the movement for criminal justice reforms.

    Left-leaning groups have stepped in to fund candidates who support those reforms, while conservatives are pushing back amid concerns that crime in America’s cities is out of control.”
    So, the issue I have with this is that some of Soros's foundations spend money very widely, and give a *lot* of very small (i.e. $2,000 or less) sums.

    That means that there are a lot of PACs who get their primary funding from - say - Illinois Teachers, and who get a small sum from one of Soros's various bodies. And then suddenly the PAC is characterized as "a political action committee linked to a deep-pocketed liberal donor."

    So, for example, Soros has given very liberally to Jewish charities. They've also (indirectly) given money to people who gave money to Hamas. Do we really believe Soros is backing Hamas?

    When one gives out thousands - or perhaps tens of thousands - of these small donations, ones hand can be seen in anything.

    This is the right wing equivalent of the left wing Facebook posts I get about how a Conservative donor gave money to a political party, and then a company owned by their fund got a contract. And I'm thinking... are you crazy? This is a man with an investment fund and hundreds of holdings... statistically, one of his companies is going to get a government contract at some point.
    That AP article talks about a $300k donation from Soros to a single DA campaign.

    Of all the US news outlets, I’d expect the AP (like the BBC) to avoid over-editorialising and stick to the facts.
    No, it doesn't.

    It talks about a PAC that received funding from Soros.

    The Justice & Public Safety PAC is a big money raiser in progressive judicial circuits. They do $5,000 a plate dinners where wealthy attorneys donate money.

    Now, I don't know exactly what proportion of money comes from one of Soros's Foundations, but I can certainly find out, because the Soros Foundations all publish their donation amounts (which makes them unusually open). PACs themselves almost never publish full donor lists.
    Found it: it was not actually the Soros Foundation that gave money, but Soros Fund Mangement, and this electoral cycle it was...



    Source: https://www.opensecrets.org/outside-spending/detail/2024?cmte=C00651505&tab=donors
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    John Cleese has backed his local Labour candidate because the Conservative government “is the worst of my lifetime”. The Monty Python and Fawlty Towers star backed Daniel Aldridge in his hometown of Weston-super-Mare.

    I thought he lived in the Caribbean?

    I thought he was backing Reform?
    I was told on here the other day that he backed the rump SDP.
    Cleese was a big Liberal Party supporter back in the day, even appearing in an 'Alliance' PPB. Wonder what caused him to spurn the current Lib Dems.
    Brexit.
    At some point John Cleese and Basil Faulty became the same person.
    Maybe they were always the one and the same?
    Anybody ever see them in the same room together?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,784

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    John Cleese has backed his local Labour candidate because the Conservative government “is the worst of my lifetime”. The Monty Python and Fawlty Towers star backed Daniel Aldridge in his hometown of Weston-super-Mare.

    I thought he lived in the Caribbean?

    I thought he was backing Reform?
    I was told on here the other day that he backed the rump SDP.
    Cleese was a big Liberal Party supporter back in the day, even appearing in an 'Alliance' PPB. Wonder what caused him to spurn the current Lib Dems.
    Brexit.
    At some point John Cleese and Basil Faulty became the same person.
    Maybe they were always the one and the same?
    I suspect to a significant extent, yes. The same perhaps with Coogan and Partridge. Perhaps as young men they created a parody of the thing they feared they would turn into.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder what it first was about the Putinist racist Nigel Farage that first attracted Putinguy into supporting him?

    I reckon it might be to do with Nige dabbling with the Jew hatred.

    Nigel Farage has been condemned by the UK’s main Jewish groups and MPs for repeatedly using language and themes associated with far-right antisemitic conspiracy theories, something for which he has been previously criticised.

    The Board of Deputies of British Jews said Farage’s airing of claims about plots to undermine national governments, and his references to Goldman Sachs and the financier George Soros, showed he was seeking to “trade in dog whistles”.

    The Brexit party leader, who has been criticised for agreeing to interviews with openly antisemitic US media personalities, was also condemned by the MPs who co-chair the all-party group against antisemitism.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/jewish-groups-and-mps-condemn-nigel-farage-for-antisemitic-dog-whistles

    and

    Nigel Farage has been criticised for referring to “a powerful Jewish lobby” operating in America.

    Mr Farage, who was presenting his phone-in show on the LBC network yesterday, took a call from someone identifying himself as “Ahmed” during a debate on Russian influence in last year’s US presidential election.

    “How come there’s such an issue with Russia, and no one really highlighting AIPAC and the Israeli lobby and their involvement in American politics and elections”, the caller asked.


    https://www.thejc.com/news/nigel-farage-condemned-over-jewish-lobby-comment-hitsicm5
    It is possible to reject anti-Semitism while also noting that the Jewish lobby has an unhealthy influence over Washington politics, making a free debate about Israel almost impossible for ambitious politicians, especially those on the right

    This is not a critique of American Jews as some devious cabal. They are just very good at organising and influencing and have been doing it for decades. Many others could learn from them
    It’s definitely not anti-Semetic to point out that George Soros is, through the Open Society Foundations, funding a lot of the woke nonsense in the US in recent years, including the District Attourneys who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM.

    https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/
    That link, nor https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice , doesn't support your claim that Soros is funding "District Attourneys [sic] who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM."
    Except that he did indeed fund the campaigns of a whole load of DAs who act like I said in practice.
    Feel free to provide some details using reliable sources.

    Soros has donated some money. To say he funded the campaigns exaggerates his input. To describe the DAs in the terms you did is often propaganda, not a fair summary of their actions. But without details, it is difficult to comment.

    One thing Soros's foundation does do is fund attempts to bring Russian war criminals to justice for their acts in Ukraine, as per https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice I would have thought you would welcome such.

    More detail here: https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/newsroom/the-open-society-foundations-in-ukraine Lots of good work!
    Okay then.

    I’ll start with the LA Times:
    https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-prosecutor-campaign-20180523-story.html

    Then CBS News:
    https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/george-soros-district-attorney-campaigns-alameda-contra-costa/

    How’s about the New York Times:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/13/us/politics/george-soros-racial-justice-organizations.html

    …and the New York Post:
    https://nypost.com/2021/12/16/how-george-soros-funded-progressive-das-behind-us-crime-surge/

    Even the Associated Press:
    https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-maine-portland-government-and-politics-crime-2f8ad96c907729dffd2f112d3cf1703a

    That last article:
    PORTLAND, Maine (AP) — A local district attorney’s race in Maine wasn’t generating much attention until a political action committee linked to a deep-pocketed liberal donor with international name recognition suddenly took an interest.

    A super PAC funded by George Soros, the billionaire investor, philanthropist and conspiracy-theory target, dropped $300,000 on behalf of the challenger, dwarfing the $70,000 combined that had been raised by both candidates until then.

    The cash infusion — a stunning sum for a local race in Maine — shows how national groups are seeking to influence district attorney’s contests across the country. The spending highlights a mostly under-the-radar jostling for control of an office that some see as being on the front lines of the movement for criminal justice reforms.

    Left-leaning groups have stepped in to fund candidates who support those reforms, while conservatives are pushing back amid concerns that crime in America’s cities is out of control.”
    So, the issue I have with this is that some of Soros's foundations spend money very widely, and give a *lot* of very small (i.e. $2,000 or less) sums.

    That means that there are a lot of PACs who get their primary funding from - say - Illinois Teachers, and who get a small sum from one of Soros's various bodies. And then suddenly the PAC is characterized as "a political action committee linked to a deep-pocketed liberal donor."

    So, for example, Soros has given very liberally to Jewish charities. They've also (indirectly) given money to people who gave money to Hamas. Do we really believe Soros is backing Hamas?

    When one gives out thousands - or perhaps tens of thousands - of these small donations, ones hand can be seen in anything.

    This is the right wing equivalent of the left wing Facebook posts I get about how a Conservative donor gave money to a political party, and then a company owned by their fund got a contract. And I'm thinking... are you crazy? This is a man with an investment fund and hundreds of holdings... statistically, one of his companies is going to get a government contract at some point.
    That AP article talks about a $300k donation from Soros to a single DA campaign.

    Of all the US news outlets, I’d expect the AP (like the BBC) to avoid over-editorialising and stick to the facts.
    No, it doesn't.

    It talks about a PAC that received funding from Soros.

    The Justice & Public Safety PAC is a big money raiser in progressive judicial circuits. They do $5,000 a plate dinners where wealthy attorneys donate money.

    Now, I don't know exactly what proportion of money comes from one of Soros's Foundations, but I can certainly find out, because the Soros Foundations all publish their donation amounts (which makes them unusually open). PACs themselves almost never publish full donor lists.
    Quote:
    In Arkansas, some $321,000 from Soros flowed through a PAC in a failed attempt to help Alicia Walton beat Will Jones in a race last month for prosecutor in a judicial district that includes Little Rock, the state capital. Special interest money cut both ways in the race to fill an open seat, with a pair of Republican billionaires spending $316,000 to support Jones.

    $321,000 from Soros.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder what it first was about the Putinist racist Nigel Farage that first attracted Putinguy into supporting him?

    I reckon it might be to do with Nige dabbling with the Jew hatred.

    Nigel Farage has been condemned by the UK’s main Jewish groups and MPs for repeatedly using language and themes associated with far-right antisemitic conspiracy theories, something for which he has been previously criticised.

    The Board of Deputies of British Jews said Farage’s airing of claims about plots to undermine national governments, and his references to Goldman Sachs and the financier George Soros, showed he was seeking to “trade in dog whistles”.

    The Brexit party leader, who has been criticised for agreeing to interviews with openly antisemitic US media personalities, was also condemned by the MPs who co-chair the all-party group against antisemitism.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/jewish-groups-and-mps-condemn-nigel-farage-for-antisemitic-dog-whistles

    and

    Nigel Farage has been criticised for referring to “a powerful Jewish lobby” operating in America.

    Mr Farage, who was presenting his phone-in show on the LBC network yesterday, took a call from someone identifying himself as “Ahmed” during a debate on Russian influence in last year’s US presidential election.

    “How come there’s such an issue with Russia, and no one really highlighting AIPAC and the Israeli lobby and their involvement in American politics and elections”, the caller asked.


    https://www.thejc.com/news/nigel-farage-condemned-over-jewish-lobby-comment-hitsicm5
    It is possible to reject anti-Semitism while also noting that the Jewish lobby has an unhealthy influence over Washington politics, making a free debate about Israel almost impossible for ambitious politicians, especially those on the right

    This is not a critique of American Jews as some devious cabal. They are just very good at organising and influencing and have been doing it for decades. Many others could learn from them
    It’s definitely not anti-Semetic to point out that George Soros is, through the Open Society Foundations, funding a lot of the woke nonsense in the US in recent years, including the District Attourneys who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM.

    https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/
    That link, nor https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice , doesn't support your claim that Soros is funding "District Attourneys [sic] who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM."
    Except that he did indeed fund the campaigns of a whole load of DAs who act like I said in practice.
    Feel free to provide some details using reliable sources.

    Soros has donated some money. To say he funded the campaigns exaggerates his input. To describe the DAs in the terms you did is often propaganda, not a fair summary of their actions. But without details, it is difficult to comment.

    One thing Soros's foundation does do is fund attempts to bring Russian war criminals to justice for their acts in Ukraine, as per https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice I would have thought you would welcome such.

    More detail here: https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/newsroom/the-open-society-foundations-in-ukraine Lots of good work!
    Okay then.

    I’ll start with the LA Times:
    https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-prosecutor-campaign-20180523-story.html

    Then CBS News:
    https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/george-soros-district-attorney-campaigns-alameda-contra-costa/

    How’s about the New York Times:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/13/us/politics/george-soros-racial-justice-organizations.html

    …and the New York Post:
    https://nypost.com/2021/12/16/how-george-soros-funded-progressive-das-behind-us-crime-surge/

    Even the Associated Press:
    https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-maine-portland-government-and-politics-crime-2f8ad96c907729dffd2f112d3cf1703a

    That last article:
    PORTLAND, Maine (AP) — A local district attorney’s race in Maine wasn’t generating much attention until a political action committee linked to a deep-pocketed liberal donor with international name recognition suddenly took an interest.

    A super PAC funded by George Soros, the billionaire investor, philanthropist and conspiracy-theory target, dropped $300,000 on behalf of the challenger, dwarfing the $70,000 combined that had been raised by both candidates until then.

    The cash infusion — a stunning sum for a local race in Maine — shows how national groups are seeking to influence district attorney’s contests across the country. The spending highlights a mostly under-the-radar jostling for control of an office that some see as being on the front lines of the movement for criminal justice reforms.

    Left-leaning groups have stepped in to fund candidates who support those reforms, while conservatives are pushing back amid concerns that crime in America’s cities is out of control.”
    So, the issue I have with this is that some of Soros's foundations spend money very widely, and give a *lot* of very small (i.e. $2,000 or less) sums.

    That means that there are a lot of PACs who get their primary funding from - say - Illinois Teachers, and who get a small sum from one of Soros's various bodies. And then suddenly the PAC is characterized as "a political action committee linked to a deep-pocketed liberal donor."

    So, for example, Soros has given very liberally to Jewish charities. They've also (indirectly) given money to people who gave money to Hamas. Do we really believe Soros is backing Hamas?

    When one gives out thousands - or perhaps tens of thousands - of these small donations, ones hand can be seen in anything.

    This is the right wing equivalent of the left wing Facebook posts I get about how a Conservative donor gave money to a political party, and then a company owned by their fund got a contract. And I'm thinking... are you crazy? This is a man with an investment fund and hundreds of holdings... statistically, one of his companies is going to get a government contract at some point.
    That AP article talks about a $300k donation from Soros to a single DA campaign.

    Of all the US news outlets, I’d expect the AP (like the BBC) to avoid over-editorialising and stick to the facts.
    No, it doesn't.

    It talks about a PAC that received funding from Soros.

    The Justice & Public Safety PAC is a big money raiser in progressive judicial circuits. They do $5,000 a plate dinners where wealthy attorneys donate money.

    Now, I don't know exactly what proportion of money comes from one of Soros's Foundations, but I can certainly find out, because the Soros Foundations all publish their donation amounts (which makes them unusually open). PACs themselves almost never publish full donor lists.
    Found it: it was not actually the Soros Foundation that gave money, but Soros Fund Mangement, and this electoral cycle it was...



    Source: https://www.opensecrets.org/outside-spending/detail/2024?cmte=C00651505&tab=donors
    Sorry: it's even more removed from Soros than you might think. That was $11,000 from individuals who worked for Soros Fund Management. So it literally might just be a couple of lawyers who turned up to a $5,000 a head dinner and paid for it with their own money.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822
    nova said:

    Almost half of Conservative voters want Rishi Sunak to strike a co-operation deal with Reform UK, a poll has found.

    The survey by BMG for the i newspaper found that 46 per cent of Tory voters supported the two parties co-operating.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/14/general-election-latest-news-sunak-starmer-farage-reform/

    Half of 2019 voters is 21%. Half of current Tory voters is 9%. So matters a lot which of those it is.
    It appears to be 46% of current Tory voters.

    However it looks like 71% of former Tory 2019 voters, so somewhere between the two figures you quoted.
    So could be around low thirties. Lots of difficulties for them though.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    Great to see that Galloway’s odious mod are seemingly the least popular political party with PBers.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder what it first was about the Putinist racist Nigel Farage that first attracted Putinguy into supporting him?

    I reckon it might be to do with Nige dabbling with the Jew hatred.

    Nigel Farage has been condemned by the UK’s main Jewish groups and MPs for repeatedly using language and themes associated with far-right antisemitic conspiracy theories, something for which he has been previously criticised.

    The Board of Deputies of British Jews said Farage’s airing of claims about plots to undermine national governments, and his references to Goldman Sachs and the financier George Soros, showed he was seeking to “trade in dog whistles”.

    The Brexit party leader, who has been criticised for agreeing to interviews with openly antisemitic US media personalities, was also condemned by the MPs who co-chair the all-party group against antisemitism.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/jewish-groups-and-mps-condemn-nigel-farage-for-antisemitic-dog-whistles

    and

    Nigel Farage has been criticised for referring to “a powerful Jewish lobby” operating in America.

    Mr Farage, who was presenting his phone-in show on the LBC network yesterday, took a call from someone identifying himself as “Ahmed” during a debate on Russian influence in last year’s US presidential election.

    “How come there’s such an issue with Russia, and no one really highlighting AIPAC and the Israeli lobby and their involvement in American politics and elections”, the caller asked.


    https://www.thejc.com/news/nigel-farage-condemned-over-jewish-lobby-comment-hitsicm5
    It is possible to reject anti-Semitism while also noting that the Jewish lobby has an unhealthy influence over Washington politics, making a free debate about Israel almost impossible for ambitious politicians, especially those on the right

    This is not a critique of American Jews as some devious cabal. They are just very good at organising and influencing and have been doing it for decades. Many others could learn from them
    It’s definitely not anti-Semetic to point out that George Soros is, through the Open Society Foundations, funding a lot of the woke nonsense in the US in recent years, including the District Attourneys who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM.

    https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/
    That link, nor https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice , doesn't support your claim that Soros is funding "District Attourneys [sic] who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM."
    Except that he did indeed fund the campaigns of a whole load of DAs who act like I said in practice.
    Feel free to provide some details using reliable sources.

    Soros has donated some money. To say he funded the campaigns exaggerates his input. To describe the DAs in the terms you did is often propaganda, not a fair summary of their actions. But without details, it is difficult to comment.

    One thing Soros's foundation does do is fund attempts to bring Russian war criminals to justice for their acts in Ukraine, as per https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice I would have thought you would welcome such.

    More detail here: https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/newsroom/the-open-society-foundations-in-ukraine Lots of good work!
    Okay then.

    I’ll start with the LA Times:
    https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-prosecutor-campaign-20180523-story.html

    Then CBS News:
    https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/george-soros-district-attorney-campaigns-alameda-contra-costa/

    How’s about the New York Times:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/13/us/politics/george-soros-racial-justice-organizations.html

    …and the New York Post:
    https://nypost.com/2021/12/16/how-george-soros-funded-progressive-das-behind-us-crime-surge/

    Even the Associated Press:
    https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-maine-portland-government-and-politics-crime-2f8ad96c907729dffd2f112d3cf1703a

    That last article:
    PORTLAND, Maine (AP) — A local district attorney’s race in Maine wasn’t generating much attention until a political action committee linked to a deep-pocketed liberal donor with international name recognition suddenly took an interest.

    A super PAC funded by George Soros, the billionaire investor, philanthropist and conspiracy-theory target, dropped $300,000 on behalf of the challenger, dwarfing the $70,000 combined that had been raised by both candidates until then.

    The cash infusion — a stunning sum for a local race in Maine — shows how national groups are seeking to influence district attorney’s contests across the country. The spending highlights a mostly under-the-radar jostling for control of an office that some see as being on the front lines of the movement for criminal justice reforms.

    Left-leaning groups have stepped in to fund candidates who support those reforms, while conservatives are pushing back amid concerns that crime in America’s cities is out of control.”
    So, the issue I have with this is that some of Soros's foundations spend money very widely, and give a *lot* of very small (i.e. $2,000 or less) sums.

    That means that there are a lot of PACs who get their primary funding from - say - Illinois Teachers, and who get a small sum from one of Soros's various bodies. And then suddenly the PAC is characterized as "a political action committee linked to a deep-pocketed liberal donor."

    So, for example, Soros has given very liberally to Jewish charities. They've also (indirectly) given money to people who gave money to Hamas. Do we really believe Soros is backing Hamas?

    When one gives out thousands - or perhaps tens of thousands - of these small donations, ones hand can be seen in anything.

    This is the right wing equivalent of the left wing Facebook posts I get about how a Conservative donor gave money to a political party, and then a company owned by their fund got a contract. And I'm thinking... are you crazy? This is a man with an investment fund and hundreds of holdings... statistically, one of his companies is going to get a government contract at some point.
    That AP article talks about a $300k donation from Soros to a single DA campaign.

    Of all the US news outlets, I’d expect the AP (like the BBC) to avoid over-editorialising and stick to the facts.
    No, it doesn't.

    It talks about a PAC that received funding from Soros.

    The Justice & Public Safety PAC is a big money raiser in progressive judicial circuits. They do $5,000 a plate dinners where wealthy attorneys donate money.

    Now, I don't know exactly what proportion of money comes from one of Soros's Foundations, but I can certainly find out, because the Soros Foundations all publish their donation amounts (which makes them unusually open). PACs themselves almost never publish full donor lists.
    Quote:
    In Arkansas, some $321,000 from Soros flowed through a PAC in a failed attempt to help Alicia Walton beat Will Jones in a race last month for prosecutor in a judicial district that includes Little Rock, the state capital. Special interest money cut both ways in the race to fill an open seat, with a pair of Republican billionaires spending $316,000 to support Jones.

    $321,000 from Soros.
    Shall we follow the money?

    I will be prepared to bet, if you like, that the PAC will take lots of donations, and that Soros will be a relatively small proprtion of it.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020
    edited June 14

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    John Cleese has backed his local Labour candidate because the Conservative government “is the worst of my lifetime”. The Monty Python and Fawlty Towers star backed Daniel Aldridge in his hometown of Weston-super-Mare.

    I thought he lived in the Caribbean?

    I thought he was backing Reform?
    I was told on here the other day that he backed the rump SDP.
    Cleese was a big Liberal Party supporter back in the day, even appearing in an 'Alliance' PPB. Wonder what caused him to spurn the current Lib Dems.
    Brexit.
    At some point John Cleese and Basil Faulty became the same person.
    Maybe they were always the one and the same?
    I suspect to a significant extent, yes. The same perhaps with Coogan and Partridge. Perhaps as young men they created a parody of the thing they feared they would turn into.
    Not sure that is true about Coogan. At the height of his fame was an arrogant man who thought he could do what he wanted, when he wanted and demanded the media to cover up all his bad behaviour. He used to phone up Andy Coulson and shout at him to write a particular version of a story. His whole vendetta came out of when Rebecca Brookes came in and said why do we keep spiking these stories of drink, drugs, hookers, bloody tell him to piss off and go big with the scandal.

    Hugh Grant and the characters he now plays, I can believe that. He is a lot more cunning than the floppy haired plonker he always played in early days of his career.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder what it first was about the Putinist racist Nigel Farage that first attracted Putinguy into supporting him?

    I reckon it might be to do with Nige dabbling with the Jew hatred.

    Nigel Farage has been condemned by the UK’s main Jewish groups and MPs for repeatedly using language and themes associated with far-right antisemitic conspiracy theories, something for which he has been previously criticised.

    The Board of Deputies of British Jews said Farage’s airing of claims about plots to undermine national governments, and his references to Goldman Sachs and the financier George Soros, showed he was seeking to “trade in dog whistles”.

    The Brexit party leader, who has been criticised for agreeing to interviews with openly antisemitic US media personalities, was also condemned by the MPs who co-chair the all-party group against antisemitism.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/jewish-groups-and-mps-condemn-nigel-farage-for-antisemitic-dog-whistles

    and

    Nigel Farage has been criticised for referring to “a powerful Jewish lobby” operating in America.

    Mr Farage, who was presenting his phone-in show on the LBC network yesterday, took a call from someone identifying himself as “Ahmed” during a debate on Russian influence in last year’s US presidential election.

    “How come there’s such an issue with Russia, and no one really highlighting AIPAC and the Israeli lobby and their involvement in American politics and elections”, the caller asked.


    https://www.thejc.com/news/nigel-farage-condemned-over-jewish-lobby-comment-hitsicm5
    It is possible to reject anti-Semitism while also noting that the Jewish lobby has an unhealthy influence over Washington politics, making a free debate about Israel almost impossible for ambitious politicians, especially those on the right

    This is not a critique of American Jews as some devious cabal. They are just very good at organising and influencing and have been doing it for decades. Many others could learn from them
    It’s definitely not anti-Semetic to point out that George Soros is, through the Open Society Foundations, funding a lot of the woke nonsense in the US in recent years, including the District Attourneys who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM.

    https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/
    That link, nor https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice , doesn't support your claim that Soros is funding "District Attourneys [sic] who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM."
    Except that he did indeed fund the campaigns of a whole load of DAs who act like I said in practice.
    Feel free to provide some details using reliable sources.

    Soros has donated some money. To say he funded the campaigns exaggerates his input. To describe the DAs in the terms you did is often propaganda, not a fair summary of their actions. But without details, it is difficult to comment.

    One thing Soros's foundation does do is fund attempts to bring Russian war criminals to justice for their acts in Ukraine, as per https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice I would have thought you would welcome such.

    More detail here: https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/newsroom/the-open-society-foundations-in-ukraine Lots of good work!
    Okay then.

    I’ll start with the LA Times:
    https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-prosecutor-campaign-20180523-story.html

    Then CBS News:
    https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/george-soros-district-attorney-campaigns-alameda-contra-costa/

    How’s about the New York Times:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/13/us/politics/george-soros-racial-justice-organizations.html

    …and the New York Post:
    https://nypost.com/2021/12/16/how-george-soros-funded-progressive-das-behind-us-crime-surge/

    Even the Associated Press:
    https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-maine-portland-government-and-politics-crime-2f8ad96c907729dffd2f112d3cf1703a

    That last article:
    PORTLAND, Maine (AP) — A local district attorney’s race in Maine wasn’t generating much attention until a political action committee linked to a deep-pocketed liberal donor with international name recognition suddenly took an interest.

    A super PAC funded by George Soros, the billionaire investor, philanthropist and conspiracy-theory target, dropped $300,000 on behalf of the challenger, dwarfing the $70,000 combined that had been raised by both candidates until then.

    The cash infusion — a stunning sum for a local race in Maine — shows how national groups are seeking to influence district attorney’s contests across the country. The spending highlights a mostly under-the-radar jostling for control of an office that some see as being on the front lines of the movement for criminal justice reforms.

    Left-leaning groups have stepped in to fund candidates who support those reforms, while conservatives are pushing back amid concerns that crime in America’s cities is out of control.”
    So, the issue I have with this is that some of Soros's foundations spend money very widely, and give a *lot* of very small (i.e. $2,000 or less) sums.

    That means that there are a lot of PACs who get their primary funding from - say - Illinois Teachers, and who get a small sum from one of Soros's various bodies. And then suddenly the PAC is characterized as "a political action committee linked to a deep-pocketed liberal donor."

    So, for example, Soros has given very liberally to Jewish charities. They've also (indirectly) given money to people who gave money to Hamas. Do we really believe Soros is backing Hamas?

    When one gives out thousands - or perhaps tens of thousands - of these small donations, ones hand can be seen in anything.

    This is the right wing equivalent of the left wing Facebook posts I get about how a Conservative donor gave money to a political party, and then a company owned by their fund got a contract. And I'm thinking... are you crazy? This is a man with an investment fund and hundreds of holdings... statistically, one of his companies is going to get a government contract at some point.
    That AP article talks about a $300k donation from Soros to a single DA campaign.

    Of all the US news outlets, I’d expect the AP (like the BBC) to avoid over-editorialising and stick to the facts.
    No, it doesn't.

    It talks about a PAC that received funding from Soros.

    The Justice & Public Safety PAC is a big money raiser in progressive judicial circuits. They do $5,000 a plate dinners where wealthy attorneys donate money.

    Now, I don't know exactly what proportion of money comes from one of Soros's Foundations, but I can certainly find out, because the Soros Foundations all publish their donation amounts (which makes them unusually open). PACs themselves almost never publish full donor lists.
    Quote:
    In Arkansas, some $321,000 from Soros flowed through a PAC in a failed attempt to help Alicia Walton beat Will Jones in a race last month for prosecutor in a judicial district that includes Little Rock, the state capital. Special interest money cut both ways in the race to fill an open seat, with a pair of Republican billionaires spending $316,000 to support Jones.

    $321,000 from Soros.
    Annoyingly, the article doesn't mention the name of the PAC in Arkansas, so we can't pull the details ourselves. But there is a general habit of journalists of assuming that a PAC that recieved money from Soros recieved all, or even most, of its money from Soros.

    If you go to OpenSecrets, they catalog all the Soros donations by amount and by year (because Soros publishes all that information), and you can see that the sums are often trivially small.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020

    The only unity Nigel Farage believes in is Unity Mitford.

    "What is it about the murderous dictator [Vladimir Putin] that you admire?" Nicky Campbell asks Reform UK leader Nigel Farage

    "You can recognise the fact that some people are good at what they do even if they have evil intent" Farage responds

    https://bbc.in/45o12w0


    https://x.com/BBCPolitics/status/1801556058638307426

    That was a very "when did you stop beating your wife" setup.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder what it first was about the Putinist racist Nigel Farage that first attracted Putinguy into supporting him?

    I reckon it might be to do with Nige dabbling with the Jew hatred.

    Nigel Farage has been condemned by the UK’s main Jewish groups and MPs for repeatedly using language and themes associated with far-right antisemitic conspiracy theories, something for which he has been previously criticised.

    The Board of Deputies of British Jews said Farage’s airing of claims about plots to undermine national governments, and his references to Goldman Sachs and the financier George Soros, showed he was seeking to “trade in dog whistles”.

    The Brexit party leader, who has been criticised for agreeing to interviews with openly antisemitic US media personalities, was also condemned by the MPs who co-chair the all-party group against antisemitism.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/jewish-groups-and-mps-condemn-nigel-farage-for-antisemitic-dog-whistles

    and

    Nigel Farage has been criticised for referring to “a powerful Jewish lobby” operating in America.

    Mr Farage, who was presenting his phone-in show on the LBC network yesterday, took a call from someone identifying himself as “Ahmed” during a debate on Russian influence in last year’s US presidential election.

    “How come there’s such an issue with Russia, and no one really highlighting AIPAC and the Israeli lobby and their involvement in American politics and elections”, the caller asked.


    https://www.thejc.com/news/nigel-farage-condemned-over-jewish-lobby-comment-hitsicm5
    It is possible to reject anti-Semitism while also noting that the Jewish lobby has an unhealthy influence over Washington politics, making a free debate about Israel almost impossible for ambitious politicians, especially those on the right

    This is not a critique of American Jews as some devious cabal. They are just very good at organising and influencing and have been doing it for decades. Many others could learn from them
    It’s definitely not anti-Semetic to point out that George Soros is, through the Open Society Foundations, funding a lot of the woke nonsense in the US in recent years, including the District Attourneys who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM.

    https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/
    That link, nor https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice , doesn't support your claim that Soros is funding "District Attourneys [sic] who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM."
    Except that he did indeed fund the campaigns of a whole load of DAs who act like I said in practice.
    Feel free to provide some details using reliable sources.

    Soros has donated some money. To say he funded the campaigns exaggerates his input. To describe the DAs in the terms you did is often propaganda, not a fair summary of their actions. But without details, it is difficult to comment.

    One thing Soros's foundation does do is fund attempts to bring Russian war criminals to justice for their acts in Ukraine, as per https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice I would have thought you would welcome such.

    More detail here: https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/newsroom/the-open-society-foundations-in-ukraine Lots of good work!
    Okay then.

    I’ll start with the LA Times:
    https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-prosecutor-campaign-20180523-story.html

    Then CBS News:
    https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/george-soros-district-attorney-campaigns-alameda-contra-costa/

    How’s about the New York Times:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/13/us/politics/george-soros-racial-justice-organizations.html

    …and the New York Post:
    https://nypost.com/2021/12/16/how-george-soros-funded-progressive-das-behind-us-crime-surge/

    Even the Associated Press:
    https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-maine-portland-government-and-politics-crime-2f8ad96c907729dffd2f112d3cf1703a

    That last article:
    PORTLAND, Maine (AP) — A local district attorney’s race in Maine wasn’t generating much attention until a political action committee linked to a deep-pocketed liberal donor with international name recognition suddenly took an interest.

    A super PAC funded by George Soros, the billionaire investor, philanthropist and conspiracy-theory target, dropped $300,000 on behalf of the challenger, dwarfing the $70,000 combined that had been raised by both candidates until then.

    The cash infusion — a stunning sum for a local race in Maine — shows how national groups are seeking to influence district attorney’s contests across the country. The spending highlights a mostly under-the-radar jostling for control of an office that some see as being on the front lines of the movement for criminal justice reforms.

    Left-leaning groups have stepped in to fund candidates who support those reforms, while conservatives are pushing back amid concerns that crime in America’s cities is out of control.”
    So, the issue I have with this is that some of Soros's foundations spend money very widely, and give a *lot* of very small (i.e. $2,000 or less) sums.

    That means that there are a lot of PACs who get their primary funding from - say - Illinois Teachers, and who get a small sum from one of Soros's various bodies. And then suddenly the PAC is characterized as "a political action committee linked to a deep-pocketed liberal donor."

    So, for example, Soros has given very liberally to Jewish charities. They've also (indirectly) given money to people who gave money to Hamas. Do we really believe Soros is backing Hamas?

    When one gives out thousands - or perhaps tens of thousands - of these small donations, ones hand can be seen in anything.

    This is the right wing equivalent of the left wing Facebook posts I get about how a Conservative donor gave money to a political party, and then a company owned by their fund got a contract. And I'm thinking... are you crazy? This is a man with an investment fund and hundreds of holdings... statistically, one of his companies is going to get a government contract at some point.
    That AP article talks about a $300k donation from Soros to a single DA campaign.

    Of all the US news outlets, I’d expect the AP (like the BBC) to avoid over-editorialising and stick to the facts.
    No, it doesn't.

    It talks about a PAC that received funding from Soros.

    The Justice & Public Safety PAC is a big money raiser in progressive judicial circuits. They do $5,000 a plate dinners where wealthy attorneys donate money.

    Now, I don't know exactly what proportion of money comes from one of Soros's Foundations, but I can certainly find out, because the Soros Foundations all publish their donation amounts (which makes them unusually open). PACs themselves almost never publish full donor lists.
    Quote:
    In Arkansas, some $321,000 from Soros flowed through a PAC in a failed attempt to help Alicia Walton beat Will Jones in a race last month for prosecutor in a judicial district that includes Little Rock, the state capital. Special interest money cut both ways in the race to fill an open seat, with a pair of Republican billionaires spending $316,000 to support Jones.

    $321,000 from Soros.
    Shall we follow the money?

    I will be prepared to bet, if you like, that the PAC will take lots of donations, and that Soros will be a relatively small proprtion of it.

    So the AP says that Soros donated $321,000 to a PAC promoting Alicia Walton in Arkansas.

    Are you saying that’s not true?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,362
    TimS said:

    As we idly speculate on the destruction and rebuilding of the party political system in the UK courtesy of Reform having a good opinion poll, a question.

    Imagine the whole election were decided by everyone having a forced rank-choice vote for all parties, from best to worst. Keeping this to UK parties with at least one seat, how would you vote?

    I struggle a bit with ranking in a couple of places but I think I would do:

    1. Lib Dems
    2. APNI
    3. Labour
    4. SDLP
    5. Plaid
    6. Green
    7. Conservative
    8. SNP
    9. UUP
    10. Reform
    11. DUP
    12. SF
    13. WPGB

    I struggle most with the order of 6, 7 and 8. In another mood they might be the opposite way round.

    In the recent local elections here I had the ability to rank 11 candidates, but in the end I stopped at preference number 3.

    I decided that my refusal to transfer my vote any further would send a stronger signal than trying to distinguish between the many and various flavours of candidate I disagreed with strongly.

    As it turned out, none of the candidates I gave a preference to were elected in the 4-seat local electoral area, which is fairly indicative of the relatively fringe nature of my views, and the candidate I was probably most opposed to was the first to reach the quota on count 3, so any attempt to use my lower preferences to vote against him would have been futile.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020
    edited June 14
    The Labour Party raised £351,990 more in donations than the Conservatives in the first week of the general election campaign, according to the Electoral Commission.

    Labour raised £926,908, followed by the Conservatives on £574,918, and Liberal Democrats with £454,999. The Scottish National Party raised £36,305 and Reform UK £140,000.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cyrr1zk1e8no

    I can't imagine Tory cheque books will be opening much after the past couple of weeks.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,090
    HYUFD said:

    Here's a comparison that makes Biden look relatively good. Relatively.
    "Biden's 37% approval rating positively sparkles next to Canadian PM Justin Trudeau (30%), German Chancellor Olaf Scholz (25%), U.K. Prime Minister Rishi Sunak (25%), French President Emmanuel Macron (21%) and Japanese PM Fumio Kishida (13%), per Morning Consult's tracker."
    source: https://www.axios.com/2024/06/13/g7-summit-2024-unpopular-leaders-biden-trudeau

    Italy's Meloni leads the G7, at 42 percent: https://pro.morningconsult.com/trackers/global-leader-approval

    (For the record, I have never thought highly of Biden, so that may explain why I don't see a large decline in his abilities in recent years. He has always had problems speaking, partly, it is claimed, because of his youthful stuttering.)

    Confirms Starmer is likely to have a short honeymoon as PM
    That doesn't necessarily follow. Arguably, those poor ratings are about inflation. Starmer comes in, inflation is now lower, what happened in the past is Sunak's responsibility not his. There's no inherent reason his honeymoon should be too short.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    I’m old enough to remember when I said “I suspect the Chinese are trying to sabotage Boeing” and the usual PB midwits scoffed at my conspiracy theorising

    Et voila

    “F.A.A. Investigating How Counterfeit Titanium Got Into Boeing and Airbus Jets
    The material, which was purchased from a little-known Chinese company, was sold with falsified documents and used in parts that went into jets from both manufacturers.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/14/us/politics/boeing-airbus-titanium-faa.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb

    I propose a new PB rule: LEON IS RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING (usually a year ahead of everyone else) APART LIZ TRUSS AND WHAT3WORDS

    That's more likely plain fraud, not sabotage.
    The companies sabotaged themselves by trying to cut corners.

    As usual, you look for the more complicated explanation (classic midwit behaviour, to borrow the term you learned from your Twitter followings).
    But, I’m right

    I really do get an extraordinary number of long distance predictions exactly right and, to be polite, you never ever do



    ...
  • novanova Posts: 692

    nova said:

    Almost half of Conservative voters want Rishi Sunak to strike a co-operation deal with Reform UK, a poll has found.

    The survey by BMG for the i newspaper found that 46 per cent of Tory voters supported the two parties co-operating.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/14/general-election-latest-news-sunak-starmer-farage-reform/

    Half of 2019 voters is 21%. Half of current Tory voters is 9%. So matters a lot which of those it is.
    It appears to be 46% of current Tory voters.

    However it looks like 71% of former Tory 2019 voters, so somewhere between the two figures you quoted.
    So could be around low thirties. Lots of difficulties for them though.
    Just to clarify - 71% of ex-Tory 2019 voters who are now voting for Reform.

    So, maybe low teens % of the whole electorate.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822

    The Labour Party raised £351,990 more in donations than the Conservatives in the first week of the general election campaign, according to the Electoral Commission.

    Labour raised £926,908, followed by the Conservatives on £574,918, and Liberal Democrats with £454,999. The Scottish National Party raised £36,305 and Reform UK £140,000.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cyrr1zk1e8no

    I can't imagine Tory cheque books will be opening much after the past couple of weeks.

    About the same as they would raise for the Wisconsin dog catchers deputy over the pond.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    edited June 14
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder what it first was about the Putinist racist Nigel Farage that first attracted Putinguy into supporting him?

    I reckon it might be to do with Nige dabbling with the Jew hatred.

    Nigel Farage has been condemned by the UK’s main Jewish groups and MPs for repeatedly using language and themes associated with far-right antisemitic conspiracy theories, something for which he has been previously criticised.

    The Board of Deputies of British Jews said Farage’s airing of claims about plots to undermine national governments, and his references to Goldman Sachs and the financier George Soros, showed he was seeking to “trade in dog whistles”.

    The Brexit party leader, who has been criticised for agreeing to interviews with openly antisemitic US media personalities, was also condemned by the MPs who co-chair the all-party group against antisemitism.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/jewish-groups-and-mps-condemn-nigel-farage-for-antisemitic-dog-whistles

    and

    Nigel Farage has been criticised for referring to “a powerful Jewish lobby” operating in America.

    Mr Farage, who was presenting his phone-in show on the LBC network yesterday, took a call from someone identifying himself as “Ahmed” during a debate on Russian influence in last year’s US presidential election.

    “How come there’s such an issue with Russia, and no one really highlighting AIPAC and the Israeli lobby and their involvement in American politics and elections”, the caller asked.


    https://www.thejc.com/news/nigel-farage-condemned-over-jewish-lobby-comment-hitsicm5
    It is possible to reject anti-Semitism while also noting that the Jewish lobby has an unhealthy influence over Washington politics, making a free debate about Israel almost impossible for ambitious politicians, especially those on the right

    This is not a critique of American Jews as some devious cabal. They are just very good at organising and influencing and have been doing it for decades. Many others could learn from them
    It’s definitely not anti-Semetic to point out that George Soros is, through the Open Society Foundations, funding a lot of the woke nonsense in the US in recent years, including the District Attourneys who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM.

    https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/
    That link, nor https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice , doesn't support your claim that Soros is funding "District Attourneys [sic] who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM."
    Except that he did indeed fund the campaigns of a whole load of DAs who act like I said in practice.
    Feel free to provide some details using reliable sources.

    Soros has donated some money. To say he funded the campaigns exaggerates his input. To describe the DAs in the terms you did is often propaganda, not a fair summary of their actions. But without details, it is difficult to comment.

    One thing Soros's foundation does do is fund attempts to bring Russian war criminals to justice for their acts in Ukraine, as per https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice I would have thought you would welcome such.

    More detail here: https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/newsroom/the-open-society-foundations-in-ukraine Lots of good work!
    Okay then.

    I’ll start with the LA Times:
    https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-prosecutor-campaign-20180523-story.html

    Then CBS News:
    https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/george-soros-district-attorney-campaigns-alameda-contra-costa/

    How’s about the New York Times:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/13/us/politics/george-soros-racial-justice-organizations.html

    …and the New York Post:
    https://nypost.com/2021/12/16/how-george-soros-funded-progressive-das-behind-us-crime-surge/

    Even the Associated Press:
    https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-maine-portland-government-and-politics-crime-2f8ad96c907729dffd2f112d3cf1703a

    That last article:
    PORTLAND, Maine (AP) — A local district attorney’s race in Maine wasn’t generating much attention until a political action committee linked to a deep-pocketed liberal donor with international name recognition suddenly took an interest.

    A super PAC funded by George Soros, the billionaire investor, philanthropist and conspiracy-theory target, dropped $300,000 on behalf of the challenger, dwarfing the $70,000 combined that had been raised by both candidates until then.

    The cash infusion — a stunning sum for a local race in Maine — shows how national groups are seeking to influence district attorney’s contests across the country. The spending highlights a mostly under-the-radar jostling for control of an office that some see as being on the front lines of the movement for criminal justice reforms.

    Left-leaning groups have stepped in to fund candidates who support those reforms, while conservatives are pushing back amid concerns that crime in America’s cities is out of control.”
    So, the issue I have with this is that some of Soros's foundations spend money very widely, and give a *lot* of very small (i.e. $2,000 or less) sums.

    That means that there are a lot of PACs who get their primary funding from - say - Illinois Teachers, and who get a small sum from one of Soros's various bodies. And then suddenly the PAC is characterized as "a political action committee linked to a deep-pocketed liberal donor."

    So, for example, Soros has given very liberally to Jewish charities. They've also (indirectly) given money to people who gave money to Hamas. Do we really believe Soros is backing Hamas?

    When one gives out thousands - or perhaps tens of thousands - of these small donations, ones hand can be seen in anything.

    This is the right wing equivalent of the left wing Facebook posts I get about how a Conservative donor gave money to a political party, and then a company owned by their fund got a contract. And I'm thinking... are you crazy? This is a man with an investment fund and hundreds of holdings... statistically, one of his companies is going to get a government contract at some point.
    That AP article talks about a $300k donation from Soros to a single DA campaign.

    Of all the US news outlets, I’d expect the AP (like the BBC) to avoid over-editorialising and stick to the facts.
    No, it doesn't.

    It talks about a PAC that received funding from Soros.

    The Justice & Public Safety PAC is a big money raiser in progressive judicial circuits. They do $5,000 a plate dinners where wealthy attorneys donate money.

    Now, I don't know exactly what proportion of money comes from one of Soros's Foundations, but I can certainly find out, because the Soros Foundations all publish their donation amounts (which makes them unusually open). PACs themselves almost never publish full donor lists.
    Quote:
    In Arkansas, some $321,000 from Soros flowed through a PAC in a failed attempt to help Alicia Walton beat Will Jones in a race last month for prosecutor in a judicial district that includes Little Rock, the state capital. Special interest money cut both ways in the race to fill an open seat, with a pair of Republican billionaires spending $316,000 to support Jones.

    $321,000 from Soros.
    Annoyingly, the article doesn't mention the name of the PAC in Arkansas, so we can't pull the details ourselves. But there is a general habit of journalists of assuming that a PAC that recieved money from Soros recieved all, or even most, of its money from Soros.

    If you go to OpenSecrets, they catalog all the Soros donations by amount and by year (because Soros publishes all that information), and you can see that the sums are often trivially small.

    Okay:

    Newsweek FactCheck 2022.

    Campaign finance data from the most recent filings with the Federal Election Commission (FEC), compiled by OpenSecrets, shows that George Soros is indeed the single largest individual donor in the 2022 elections.

    Soros contributed $128,485,971, all of it going to Democrats. Most of that funding went to the the super PAC Democracy II, which supports Democrats and liberal causes, according to CNBC's report.


    https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-george-soros-midterms-biggest-donor-1757801

    He’s unquestionably the single biggest political donor in the US. He’s not giving a few thousand here and there by turning up to dinners, he’s giving more than a hundred million dollars to a mid-season campaign.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,784

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    John Cleese has backed his local Labour candidate because the Conservative government “is the worst of my lifetime”. The Monty Python and Fawlty Towers star backed Daniel Aldridge in his hometown of Weston-super-Mare.

    I thought he lived in the Caribbean?

    I thought he was backing Reform?
    I was told on here the other day that he backed the rump SDP.
    Cleese was a big Liberal Party supporter back in the day, even appearing in an 'Alliance' PPB. Wonder what caused him to spurn the current Lib Dems.
    Brexit.
    At some point John Cleese and Basil Faulty became the same person.
    Maybe they were always the one and the same?
    I suspect to a significant extent, yes. The same perhaps with Coogan and Partridge. Perhaps as young men they created a parody of the thing they feared they would turn into.
    Not sure that is true about Coogan. At the height of his fame was an arrogant man who thought he could do what he wanted, when he wanted and demanded the media to cover up all his bad behaviour. He used to phone up Andy Coulson and shout at him to write a particular version of a story. His whole vendetta came out of when Rebecca Brookes came in and said why do we keep spiking these stories of drink, drugs, hookers, bloody tell him to piss off and go big with the scandal.

    Hugh Grant and the characters he now plays, I can believe that. He is a lot more cunning than the floppy haired plonker he always played in early days of his career.
    Grant has always been a sublime actor. He's got better parts to get his teeth into now but he played the dashing leading man characters incredibly well, too. He made it look so easy one can miss how good he is in Three Weddings, Notting Hill etc.
  • jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 790

    The Labour Party raised £351,990 more in donations than the Conservatives in the first week of the general election campaign, according to the Electoral Commission.

    Labour raised £926,908, followed by the Conservatives on £574,918, and Liberal Democrats with £454,999. The Scottish National Party raised £36,305 and Reform UK £140,000.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cyrr1zk1e8no

    I can't imagine Tory cheque books will be opening much after the past couple of weeks.

    The LibDems took almost as much as the Cons? Interesting...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020
    Another match in the cricket WC delayed by rain. Between the absolutely terrible pitch in NY and all the rain interruptions, not about as well as the Tory GE campaign.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    edited June 14
    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    I’m old enough to remember when I said “I suspect the Chinese are trying to sabotage Boeing” and the usual PB midwits scoffed at my conspiracy theorising

    Et voila

    “F.A.A. Investigating How Counterfeit Titanium Got Into Boeing and Airbus Jets
    The material, which was purchased from a little-known Chinese company, was sold with falsified documents and used in parts that went into jets from both manufacturers.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/14/us/politics/boeing-airbus-titanium-faa.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb

    I propose a new PB rule: LEON IS RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING (usually a year ahead of everyone else) APART LIZ TRUSS AND WHAT3WORDS

    That's more likely plain fraud, not sabotage.
    The companies sabotaged themselves by trying to cut corners.

    As usual, you look for the more complicated explanation (classic midwit behaviour, to borrow the term you learned from your Twitter followings).
    But, I’m right

    I really do get an extraordinary number of long distance predictions exactly right and, to be polite, you never ever do



    ...
    @Leon would love his right-wing conspiracy theories to be proven but it’s the usual tripe from him, as per these ^^^ ^^^ ^^^^ ridiculous comments about Great Saviour Liz TRUSS

    A small percentage of young people may push right and equally a percentage will not. What does that thunderbrick do? He latches onto the small percentage as proof he’s right.

    Leon is pure Trump and just as stupid.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder what it first was about the Putinist racist Nigel Farage that first attracted Putinguy into supporting him?

    I reckon it might be to do with Nige dabbling with the Jew hatred.

    Nigel Farage has been condemned by the UK’s main Jewish groups and MPs for repeatedly using language and themes associated with far-right antisemitic conspiracy theories, something for which he has been previously criticised.

    The Board of Deputies of British Jews said Farage’s airing of claims about plots to undermine national governments, and his references to Goldman Sachs and the financier George Soros, showed he was seeking to “trade in dog whistles”.

    The Brexit party leader, who has been criticised for agreeing to interviews with openly antisemitic US media personalities, was also condemned by the MPs who co-chair the all-party group against antisemitism.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/jewish-groups-and-mps-condemn-nigel-farage-for-antisemitic-dog-whistles

    and

    Nigel Farage has been criticised for referring to “a powerful Jewish lobby” operating in America.

    Mr Farage, who was presenting his phone-in show on the LBC network yesterday, took a call from someone identifying himself as “Ahmed” during a debate on Russian influence in last year’s US presidential election.

    “How come there’s such an issue with Russia, and no one really highlighting AIPAC and the Israeli lobby and their involvement in American politics and elections”, the caller asked.


    https://www.thejc.com/news/nigel-farage-condemned-over-jewish-lobby-comment-hitsicm5
    It is possible to reject anti-Semitism while also noting that the Jewish lobby has an unhealthy influence over Washington politics, making a free debate about Israel almost impossible for ambitious politicians, especially those on the right

    This is not a critique of American Jews as some devious cabal. They are just very good at organising and influencing and have been doing it for decades. Many others could learn from them
    It’s definitely not anti-Semetic to point out that George Soros is, through the Open Society Foundations, funding a lot of the woke nonsense in the US in recent years, including the District Attourneys who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM.

    https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/
    That link, nor https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice , doesn't support your claim that Soros is funding "District Attourneys [sic] who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM."
    Except that he did indeed fund the campaigns of a whole load of DAs who act like I said in practice.
    Feel free to provide some details using reliable sources.

    Soros has donated some money. To say he funded the campaigns exaggerates his input. To describe the DAs in the terms you did is often propaganda, not a fair summary of their actions. But without details, it is difficult to comment.

    One thing Soros's foundation does do is fund attempts to bring Russian war criminals to justice for their acts in Ukraine, as per https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice I would have thought you would welcome such.

    More detail here: https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/newsroom/the-open-society-foundations-in-ukraine Lots of good work!
    Okay then.

    I’ll start with the LA Times:
    https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-prosecutor-campaign-20180523-story.html

    Then CBS News:
    https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/george-soros-district-attorney-campaigns-alameda-contra-costa/

    How’s about the New York Times:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/13/us/politics/george-soros-racial-justice-organizations.html

    …and the New York Post:
    https://nypost.com/2021/12/16/how-george-soros-funded-progressive-das-behind-us-crime-surge/

    Even the Associated Press:
    https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-maine-portland-government-and-politics-crime-2f8ad96c907729dffd2f112d3cf1703a

    That last article:
    PORTLAND, Maine (AP) — A local district attorney’s race in Maine wasn’t generating much attention until a political action committee linked to a deep-pocketed liberal donor with international name recognition suddenly took an interest.

    A super PAC funded by George Soros, the billionaire investor, philanthropist and conspiracy-theory target, dropped $300,000 on behalf of the challenger, dwarfing the $70,000 combined that had been raised by both candidates until then.

    The cash infusion — a stunning sum for a local race in Maine — shows how national groups are seeking to influence district attorney’s contests across the country. The spending highlights a mostly under-the-radar jostling for control of an office that some see as being on the front lines of the movement for criminal justice reforms.

    Left-leaning groups have stepped in to fund candidates who support those reforms, while conservatives are pushing back amid concerns that crime in America’s cities is out of control.”
    So, the issue I have with this is that some of Soros's foundations spend money very widely, and give a *lot* of very small (i.e. $2,000 or less) sums.

    That means that there are a lot of PACs who get their primary funding from - say - Illinois Teachers, and who get a small sum from one of Soros's various bodies. And then suddenly the PAC is characterized as "a political action committee linked to a deep-pocketed liberal donor."

    So, for example, Soros has given very liberally to Jewish charities. They've also (indirectly) given money to people who gave money to Hamas. Do we really believe Soros is backing Hamas?

    When one gives out thousands - or perhaps tens of thousands - of these small donations, ones hand can be seen in anything.

    This is the right wing equivalent of the left wing Facebook posts I get about how a Conservative donor gave money to a political party, and then a company owned by their fund got a contract. And I'm thinking... are you crazy? This is a man with an investment fund and hundreds of holdings... statistically, one of his companies is going to get a government contract at some point.
    That AP article talks about a $300k donation from Soros to a single DA campaign.

    Of all the US news outlets, I’d expect the AP (like the BBC) to avoid over-editorialising and stick to the facts.
    No, it doesn't.

    It talks about a PAC that received funding from Soros.

    The Justice & Public Safety PAC is a big money raiser in progressive judicial circuits. They do $5,000 a plate dinners where wealthy attorneys donate money.

    Now, I don't know exactly what proportion of money comes from one of Soros's Foundations, but I can certainly find out, because the Soros Foundations all publish their donation amounts (which makes them unusually open). PACs themselves almost never publish full donor lists.
    Quote:
    In Arkansas, some $321,000 from Soros flowed through a PAC in a failed attempt to help Alicia Walton beat Will Jones in a race last month for prosecutor in a judicial district that includes Little Rock, the state capital. Special interest money cut both ways in the race to fill an open seat, with a pair of Republican billionaires spending $316,000 to support Jones.

    $321,000 from Soros.
    Shall we follow the money?

    I will be prepared to bet, if you like, that the PAC will take lots of donations, and that Soros will be a relatively small proprtion of it.

    So the AP says that Soros donated $321,000 to a PAC promoting Alicia Walton in Arkansas.

    Are you saying that’s not true?
    I'm saying that there is a leap of logic in the article. I agree that Soros donated money to a PAC, and that PAC spent money on that race (among other things).

    Every time I've looked at one of these stories, and gone to OpenSecrets, and looked up the sums that Soros donated, it's always ended up being piddling amounts - like the $11,000 that went from Soros Fund Management employees to the Justice & Public Safety PAC, which became (in the AP article on the Maine race):

    A super PAC funded by George Soros, the billionaire investor, philanthropist and conspiracy-theory target, dropped $300,000 on behalf of the challenger, dwarfing the $70,000 combined that had been raised by both candidates until then.

    So, my suspicion is that the Arkansas situation will be similar. Heck, it may even be the same PAC that made the donation.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    I’m old enough to remember when I said “I suspect the Chinese are trying to sabotage Boeing” and the usual PB midwits scoffed at my conspiracy theorising

    Et voila

    “F.A.A. Investigating How Counterfeit Titanium Got Into Boeing and Airbus Jets
    The material, which was purchased from a little-known Chinese company, was sold with falsified documents and used in parts that went into jets from both manufacturers.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/14/us/politics/boeing-airbus-titanium-faa.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb

    I propose a new PB rule: LEON IS RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING (usually a year ahead of everyone else) APART LIZ TRUSS AND WHAT3WORDS

    That's more likely plain fraud, not sabotage.
    The companies sabotaged themselves by trying to cut corners.

    As usual, you look for the more complicated explanation (classic midwit behaviour, to borrow the term you learned from your Twitter followings).
    But, I’m right

    I really do get an extraordinary number of long distance predictions exactly right and, to be polite, you never ever do



    ...
    And like all really stupid people @Leon tells other people that they are dumb AF and that he is supremely clever.

    He didn’t win the Bad Sex Writer’s Award for nowt y’know.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    I’m old enough to remember when I said “I suspect the Chinese are trying to sabotage Boeing” and the usual PB midwits scoffed at my conspiracy theorising

    Et voila

    “F.A.A. Investigating How Counterfeit Titanium Got Into Boeing and Airbus Jets
    The material, which was purchased from a little-known Chinese company, was sold with falsified documents and used in parts that went into jets from both manufacturers.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/14/us/politics/boeing-airbus-titanium-faa.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb

    I propose a new PB rule: LEON IS RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING (usually a year ahead of everyone else) APART LIZ TRUSS AND WHAT3WORDS

    That's more likely plain fraud, not sabotage.
    The companies sabotaged themselves by trying to cut corners.

    As usual, you look for the more complicated explanation (classic midwit behaviour, to borrow the term you learned from your Twitter followings).
    But, I’m right

    I really do get an extraordinary number of long distance predictions exactly right and, to be polite, you never ever do



    ...
    And what’s so tragic about @Leon ’s stupidity is that there’s a grain of truth within. There IS an issue here about some right wing anti-migration groundswell.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder what it first was about the Putinist racist Nigel Farage that first attracted Putinguy into supporting him?

    I reckon it might be to do with Nige dabbling with the Jew hatred.

    Nigel Farage has been condemned by the UK’s main Jewish groups and MPs for repeatedly using language and themes associated with far-right antisemitic conspiracy theories, something for which he has been previously criticised.

    The Board of Deputies of British Jews said Farage’s airing of claims about plots to undermine national governments, and his references to Goldman Sachs and the financier George Soros, showed he was seeking to “trade in dog whistles”.

    The Brexit party leader, who has been criticised for agreeing to interviews with openly antisemitic US media personalities, was also condemned by the MPs who co-chair the all-party group against antisemitism.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/jewish-groups-and-mps-condemn-nigel-farage-for-antisemitic-dog-whistles

    and

    Nigel Farage has been criticised for referring to “a powerful Jewish lobby” operating in America.

    Mr Farage, who was presenting his phone-in show on the LBC network yesterday, took a call from someone identifying himself as “Ahmed” during a debate on Russian influence in last year’s US presidential election.

    “How come there’s such an issue with Russia, and no one really highlighting AIPAC and the Israeli lobby and their involvement in American politics and elections”, the caller asked.


    https://www.thejc.com/news/nigel-farage-condemned-over-jewish-lobby-comment-hitsicm5
    It is possible to reject anti-Semitism while also noting that the Jewish lobby has an unhealthy influence over Washington politics, making a free debate about Israel almost impossible for ambitious politicians, especially those on the right

    This is not a critique of American Jews as some devious cabal. They are just very good at organising and influencing and have been doing it for decades. Many others could learn from them
    It’s definitely not anti-Semetic to point out that George Soros is, through the Open Society Foundations, funding a lot of the woke nonsense in the US in recent years, including the District Attourneys who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM.

    https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/
    That link, nor https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice , doesn't support your claim that Soros is funding "District Attourneys [sic] who refuse to prosecute shoplifting and phone theft, and who think that rioting is fine if it’s for a ‘noble cause’ like BLM."
    Except that he did indeed fund the campaigns of a whole load of DAs who act like I said in practice.
    Feel free to provide some details using reliable sources.

    Soros has donated some money. To say he funded the campaigns exaggerates his input. To describe the DAs in the terms you did is often propaganda, not a fair summary of their actions. But without details, it is difficult to comment.

    One thing Soros's foundation does do is fund attempts to bring Russian war criminals to justice for their acts in Ukraine, as per https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/what-we-do/themes/justice I would have thought you would welcome such.

    More detail here: https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/newsroom/the-open-society-foundations-in-ukraine Lots of good work!
    Okay then.

    I’ll start with the LA Times:
    https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-prosecutor-campaign-20180523-story.html

    Then CBS News:
    https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/george-soros-district-attorney-campaigns-alameda-contra-costa/

    How’s about the New York Times:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/13/us/politics/george-soros-racial-justice-organizations.html

    …and the New York Post:
    https://nypost.com/2021/12/16/how-george-soros-funded-progressive-das-behind-us-crime-surge/

    Even the Associated Press:
    https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-maine-portland-government-and-politics-crime-2f8ad96c907729dffd2f112d3cf1703a

    That last article:
    PORTLAND, Maine (AP) — A local district attorney’s race in Maine wasn’t generating much attention until a political action committee linked to a deep-pocketed liberal donor with international name recognition suddenly took an interest.

    A super PAC funded by George Soros, the billionaire investor, philanthropist and conspiracy-theory target, dropped $300,000 on behalf of the challenger, dwarfing the $70,000 combined that had been raised by both candidates until then.

    The cash infusion — a stunning sum for a local race in Maine — shows how national groups are seeking to influence district attorney’s contests across the country. The spending highlights a mostly under-the-radar jostling for control of an office that some see as being on the front lines of the movement for criminal justice reforms.

    Left-leaning groups have stepped in to fund candidates who support those reforms, while conservatives are pushing back amid concerns that crime in America’s cities is out of control.”
    So, the issue I have with this is that some of Soros's foundations spend money very widely, and give a *lot* of very small (i.e. $2,000 or less) sums.

    That means that there are a lot of PACs who get their primary funding from - say - Illinois Teachers, and who get a small sum from one of Soros's various bodies. And then suddenly the PAC is characterized as "a political action committee linked to a deep-pocketed liberal donor."

    So, for example, Soros has given very liberally to Jewish charities. They've also (indirectly) given money to people who gave money to Hamas. Do we really believe Soros is backing Hamas?

    When one gives out thousands - or perhaps tens of thousands - of these small donations, ones hand can be seen in anything.

    This is the right wing equivalent of the left wing Facebook posts I get about how a Conservative donor gave money to a political party, and then a company owned by their fund got a contract. And I'm thinking... are you crazy? This is a man with an investment fund and hundreds of holdings... statistically, one of his companies is going to get a government contract at some point.
    That AP article talks about a $300k donation from Soros to a single DA campaign.

    Of all the US news outlets, I’d expect the AP (like the BBC) to avoid over-editorialising and stick to the facts.
    No, it doesn't.

    It talks about a PAC that received funding from Soros.

    The Justice & Public Safety PAC is a big money raiser in progressive judicial circuits. They do $5,000 a plate dinners where wealthy attorneys donate money.

    Now, I don't know exactly what proportion of money comes from one of Soros's Foundations, but I can certainly find out, because the Soros Foundations all publish their donation amounts (which makes them unusually open). PACs themselves almost never publish full donor lists.
    Quote:
    In Arkansas, some $321,000 from Soros flowed through a PAC in a failed attempt to help Alicia Walton beat Will Jones in a race last month for prosecutor in a judicial district that includes Little Rock, the state capital. Special interest money cut both ways in the race to fill an open seat, with a pair of Republican billionaires spending $316,000 to support Jones.

    $321,000 from Soros.
    Annoyingly, the article doesn't mention the name of the PAC in Arkansas, so we can't pull the details ourselves. But there is a general habit of journalists of assuming that a PAC that recieved money from Soros recieved all, or even most, of its money from Soros.

    If you go to OpenSecrets, they catalog all the Soros donations by amount and by year (because Soros publishes all that information), and you can see that the sums are often trivially small.

    Okay:

    Newsweek FactCheck 2022.

    Campaign finance data from the most recent filings with the Federal Election Commission (FEC), compiled by OpenSecrets, shows that George Soros is indeed the single largest individual donor in the 2022 elections.

    Soros contributed $128,485,971, all of it going to Democrats. Most of that funding went to the the super PAC Democracy II, which supports Democrats and liberal causes, according to CNBC's report.


    https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-george-soros-midterms-biggest-donor-1757801

    He’s unquestionably the single biggest political donor in the US. He’s not giving a few thousand here and there by turning up to dinners, he’s giving more than a hundred million dollars to a mid-season campaign.
    That is certainly true. He's given a huge amount of money to Democratic candidates via his own Super PAC.

    And if the donations had been given by his PAC, that would be interesting. But 99% of those donations are just run of the mill giving money to candidates, in much the same way the Koch Brothers or Shelden or whoever gives lots of money to candidates they support.

    The point I'm making is that journalists come out and say "CRAZY PERSON BACKED BY SOROS LINKED PAC", and it turns out that there was some piddling small donation from Soros that makes up a tiny proportion of their funding.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437

    John Cleese has backed his local Labour candidate because the Conservative government “is the worst of my lifetime”. The Monty Python and Fawlty Towers star backed Daniel Aldridge in his hometown of Weston-super-Mare.

    I thought he lived in the Caribbean?

    Cleese has been all over the shop politically. He is a famous Lib Dem isn't he? But also notoriously non-PC and had a show on GBNews.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020
    edited June 14

    The only unity Nigel Farage believes in is Unity Mitford.

    "What is it about the murderous dictator [Vladimir Putin] that you admire?" Nicky Campbell asks Reform UK leader Nigel Farage

    "You can recognise the fact that some people are good at what they do even if they have evil intent" Farage responds

    https://bbc.in/45o12w0


    https://x.com/BBCPolitics/status/1801556058638307426

    Is Putin "good at what he does" in invading Ukraine?

    On any level, it would seem the answer is "he is shite, Nigel".
    I think you are overthinking it. It was clearly a trap and Farage realised it was, as Campbell will have had a awkward quote lined up, same with the Hitler / Nazis, they would have hit him with the Reform candidate forum postings about well they weren't all bad.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,803

    TimS said:

    As we idly speculate on the destruction and rebuilding of the party political system in the UK courtesy of Reform having a good opinion poll, a question.

    Imagine the whole election were decided by everyone having a forced rank-choice vote for all parties, from best to worst. Keeping this to UK parties with at least one seat, how would you vote?

    I struggle a bit with ranking in a couple of places but I think I would do:

    1. Lib Dems
    2. APNI
    3. Labour
    4. SDLP
    5. Plaid
    6. Green
    7. Conservative
    8. SNP
    9. UUP
    10. Reform
    11. DUP
    12. SF
    13. WPGB

    I struggle most with the order of 6, 7 and 8. In another mood they might be the opposite way round.

    Great question!

    1. Labour
    2. SDLP
    3. Green
    4. SNP
    5. Sinn Fein
    6. Plaid
    7. APNI
    8. Lib Dems
    9. WPGB
    10. UUP
    11. Conservatives
    12. DUP
    13. Reform.
    Hm. Easier to list the ones I really abhor than the ones I like.
    I'd go for:
    13: SF
    12: Green
    11: WPGB
    10: SNP

    I have no view on APNI, UUP, DUP or SDLP apart from the fact that any of them are preferable to SF (or indeed Green, WPGB or SNP).
    I'd put Plaid in the same basket.

    That leaves Lab, LD, Con or Reform, about whom it's hard to feel positive about any of. I would vote for any of them to keep any of the bottom four out though.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    No new polls today?
This discussion has been closed.