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An ill fitting union – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,162
edited June 8 in General
imageAn ill fitting union – politicalbetting.com

The defection of Natalie Elphicke looks like a short term mistake by Starmer. I don’t think this is because voters dislike defectors as Opinium note ‘The public lean towards believing that letting in Dan Poulter was the right decision (28% right vs 21% wrong), but tend to think it was the wrong decision to let in Natalie Elphicke (16% right vs 33% wrong)’ although that might be down to the fact Dan Poulter is a doctor and everybody loves a doctor whilst Natalie Elphicke is Labour’s most right wing MP since Oswald Mosley.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 689
    Thirst?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386
    Penddu2 said:

    Thirst?

    Before church?

    Most people have a thirst *after* righteousness.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,361
    I think the lesson I take from this is that people have come to see political identity and affiliation as immutable characteristics, and this explains why there is so little attempt at mutual understanding or persuasion.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,788
    Mr. Eagles, if you think that's bad, I just realised that yesterday my DM made an error and I actually failed a reflex save, so my character should perhaps be dead...

    Mr. Password, that's possible, but another is that political affiliation is seen as a matter of morality rather than opinion, which means alternative views are not considered valid differences but deemed moral failings to be condemned.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631
    ydoethur said:

    Oh Mr Eagles, really, how could you say such a thing?

    It's 'Donald Trump and I.'
    As I said I am re-evaluating my choices and that includes all grammar related things.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,813
    edited May 19
    This is one of those classic polls that people more or less make up an opinion on the spot when asked but in reality less than 1% give a toss . If somebody asked me today (lets say) if the elgin marbles should be returned to Greece I would be forced to consider this for the first time in years and say yes or no - Does not mean i care in reality
  • Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 689
    ydoethur said:

    Oh Mr Eagles, really, how could you say such a thing?

    It's 'Donald Trump and I.'
    Me and Donnie....
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,439
    Natalie Elphicke is because left-wing voters rally round more clearly around "wrong", as opposed to don't know/don't care due to migration. She's not hard-right; she just has quite uncompromising views on curbing migration, which to many on the Left amounts to the same thing. Hence the numbers.

    Strategically, it was still the right decision by SKS. Next.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    This is one of those classic polls that people more or less make up an opinion on the spot when asked but in reality less than 1% give a toss . If somebody asked me today (lets say) if the elgin marbles should be returned to Greece I would be forced to consider this for the first time in years and say yes or no - Does not mean i care in reality

    How many people have actually heard of Dan Poulter or Natalie Elphicke, other than those in their constituencies or those who spend half their lives following politics?
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,132

    I think the lesson I take from this is that people have come to see political identity and affiliation as immutable characteristics, and this explains why there is so little attempt at mutual understanding or persuasion.

    I think that I do believe they can change, but am suspicious of apparently sudden large changes (like Elphicke's move), as opposed to changes which are either more gradual over time, or focussed a specific policy point, or where there is a clear specific event that catalysed the departure from the party. I think most genuine changes of political affiliation are likely to involve a period in the "no party affiliation" gap in between, where the person feels no party is really representative of their views, rather than a straight swap between parties.

    If I were answering the poll question I would treat it as a question about political tactics, not of morality -- if Starmer can smooth over the initial kerfuffle in his party and it gets him useful headlines then taking in Elphicke was the right thing to do; if it upsets his existing MPs and supporters too much without ahifting the needle for wavering swing voters then it was the wrong thing. On balance I'm guessing "right thing" but without a high degree of confidence.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,152
    Good morning everyone. Thank-you for the header.

    I think this Natalitie Elphicke thing is a QTWTAIPI - Question to Which The Answer is Probably Irrelevant.

    For @MoonRabbit - have we the result of the poll you were trailing?

    Aside: Someone needs to come up with a MoonRabbit "After Sinatra" song.

    "Moon Rabbit, Guider with a smile ..."
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,894

    ydoethur said:

    Oh Mr Eagles, really, how could you say such a thing?

    It's 'Donald Trump and I.'
    As I said I am re-evaluating my choices and that includes all grammar related things.
    Including metaphors. How can just one thing, the Elphicke defection, be both flotsam and jetsam?

    Anyway, the bigger story is not that Elphicke is Labour's most right-wing MP but that Wes Streeting is running her close as he sets out his stall in the Sunday Telegraph. The health service is not to be worshipped; it must work evenings and weekends (doesn't it already?) while reducing its dependence on immigrants; it must raise productivity, harrumphs Streeting as he channels his inner Jeremy Hunt. No more banging pans in support of the NHS.

    Speaking of whom, the Chancellor tells the Sunday Times he is ready to generously compensate victims of the tainted blood scandal now that Labour will get the bill.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385
    edited May 19

    I love BBC news articles like this. This is on their front page of top articles right now: "why parents are ditching their cars"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84z0md30z3o

    Spoiler: parents are not ditching their cars. A BBC Bristol journalist from BBC Bristol has spoken to a couple of left-wing parents in urban areas of what is now one of the UK's most left-wing cities who now cycle their kids to school.

    It's entirely unrepresentative, it is very much exaggerated and it is absolutely very BBC. Met and preachy to the core.

    ‘Jayne Wade, who lives in Easton, "burst into tears" when she first started researching the climate crisis.’

    Jesus Wept.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862
    Today’s Sunday Rawnsley, brought to you from a reasonably warm Friuli:

    Fear may not be an edifying strategy for securing power, but the Tories have repeatedly demonstrated that it can be highly effective.

    There are at least three big obstacles for the Tories in making this approach work in the current climate. The first is that successful exploitation of the security card depends on the person playing the card being perceived as a strong personality. The next serious handicap for the Tory leader is his government’s poor credentials on security issues. Yet another pitfall of the fear factor is that it tends to be effective only when it goes with the grain of pre-existing worries among the voters. Scare tactics need to have at least some shred of credibility.

    For all the effort they will put into it, the Tories are going to struggle to turn Sir Keir into a convincingly frightening bogey figure. When gathered into focus groups by pollsters, voters often have rude things to say about the Labour leader. Scary is rarely one of them. Central to his project has been de-risking perceptions of Labour.

    It is demonstrative of Labour’s risk-aversion that “tough spending rules” gets such a prominent place on the card and the consequences of this are felt in everything else the party feels able to say. This flows from a reading of the electorate that interprets the public as too cynical and mistrustful of politicians to buy into grandiose claims. The Labour leader talks in a way which suggests he thinks that what voters most crave at the moment is reassurance and predictability.

    The contrast between the Tory and Labour leaders tells us how each hope to frame the choice at the election. Scary Sunak sounds like a man trying to keep everyone awake at night. Soothing Starmer sounds like a man who wants you to be able to sleep a bit more soundly. Most people like their shut-eye.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    edited May 19
    Why in these polls is there no "don't care" option ?

    "Neither" and "don't know" don't really capture that.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631
    edited May 19

    ydoethur said:

    Oh Mr Eagles, really, how could you say such a thing?

    It's 'Donald Trump and I.'
    As I said I am re-evaluating my choices and that includes all grammar related things.
    Including metaphors. How can just one thing, the Elphicke defection, be both flotsam and jetsam?

    Anyway, the bigger story is not that Elphicke is Labour's most right-wing MP but that Wes Streeting is running her close as he sets out his stall in the Sunday Telegraph. The health service is not to be worshipped; it must work evenings and weekends (doesn't it already?) while reducing its dependence on immigrants; it must raise productivity, harrumphs Streeting as he channels his inner Jeremy Hunt. No more banging pans in support of the NHS.

    Speaking of whom, the Chancellor tells the Sunday Times he is ready to generously compensate victims of the tainted blood scandal now that Labour will get the bill.
    I am tired and emotional at the moment.

    Literally tired and emotional at the fact I am off to Anfield to say goodbye to Jürgen Klopp.

    I haven't been this emotional since David Cameron announced his retirement in 2016.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385
    Sandpit said:

    This is one of those classic polls that people more or less make up an opinion on the spot when asked but in reality less than 1% give a toss . If somebody asked me today (lets say) if the elgin marbles should be returned to Greece I would be forced to consider this for the first time in years and say yes or no - Does not mean i care in reality

    How many people have actually heard of Dan Poulter or Natalie Elphicke, other than those in their constituencies or those who spend half their lives following politics?
    Wasn’t there a poll recently on political name recognition where a made up name had a higher recognition than the leaders of the greens ?

    These two people are anonymous backbenchers who, in the future, will be winning answers on the final round of pointless.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385
    Naughty of TSE there. From the title I expected a thread about scotch issues.
  • megasaurmegasaur Posts: 586
    I think Elphicke is a net win for labour. She sets an example to right wing nutters that it's ok to vote labour just this once more than she drives out disgruntled lefties (and where are they going to go?)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    edited May 19

    I love BBC news articles like this. This is on their front page of top articles right now: "why parents are ditching their cars"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84z0md30z3o

    Spoiler: parents are not ditching their cars. A BBC Bristol journalist from BBC Bristol has spoken to a couple of left-wing parents in urban areas of what is now one of the UK's most left-wing cities who now cycle their kids to school.

    It's entirely unrepresentative, it is very much exaggerated and it is absolutely very BBC. Met and preachy to the core.

    I am a big supporter of the BBC - I think the country is trashing a huge soft influence asset by running it down...

    But I have to say this is a fair cop Casino - DM or Express levels of journalism. I fear the journalist's/editor's biases got the better of them.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,152
    edited May 19
    The biggest story this AM seems to be the Hunt "Justice at last as both parties promise billions to blood victims" contaminated blood story.

    Interesting that it's now, and why it has happened. Does it have a "bigger than the Post Office" feel to it? This goes back to the late 1970s and early 1980s.

    (Wiki quote)

    In September 1983, a leaflet distributed to UK blood donors answered the question as to whether AIDS could be transmitted by blood-products, to be "Almost certainly yes".

    In November 1983, Kenneth Clarke, Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, told Parliament that "There is no conclusive evidence that AIDS is transmitted by blood products", and the importation of infected products continued. When giving evidence to the Penrose Inquiry, Dr. Mark Winter said that, at the time Ken Clarke made this statement, "all haemophilia clinicians by this stage clearly believed that commercial blood products could and were transmitting AIDS".

    In January 1984, Lord Glenarthur, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State at the DHSS, said that "It remains the case that there is no conclusive evidence of the transmission of AIDS through blood products, although the circumstantial evidence is strong".The use of untreated clotting-factor products and importation continued.

    In April 1989, the HIV Haemophilia Litigation commenced, which culminated in December 1990 with an out-of-court settlement, following an investigation by ITV's The Cook Report in July 1990.


    Full Times Pieces:
    https://archive.ph/DvXu4
    https://archive.ph/R5GcW
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631
    Taz said:

    Naughty of TSE there. From the title I expected a thread about scotch issues.

    Nonsense, the Union between Scotland and the United Kingdom is a near perfect fitting union.

    It is why Scotland voted to remain a part of the United Kingdom and is about to kick out the narrow little nationalists that are the SNP from power.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    ydoethur said:

    Oh Mr Eagles, really, how could you say such a thing?

    It's 'Donald Trump and I.'
    As I said I am re-evaluating my choices and that includes all grammar related things.
    Including metaphors. How can just one thing, the Elphicke defection, be both flotsam and jetsam?

    Because, though legally distinct in maritime law, in practical terms it's often impossible to distinguish between the two - so metaphorically it's a category rather than two distinct things.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Sandpit said:

    This is one of those classic polls that people more or less make up an opinion on the spot when asked but in reality less than 1% give a toss . If somebody asked me today (lets say) if the elgin marbles should be returned to Greece I would be forced to consider this for the first time in years and say yes or no - Does not mean i care in reality

    How many people have actually heard of Dan 0Poulter or Natalie Elphicke, other than those in their constituencies or those who spend half their lives following politics?
    Elphicke was notorious, not least her uncompromising support for her vile husband.
    But you are right about Dan who?
  • megasaurmegasaur Posts: 586
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Oh Mr Eagles, really, how could you say such a thing?

    It's 'Donald Trump and I.'
    As I said I am re-evaluating my choices and that includes all grammar related things.
    Including metaphors. How can just one thing, the Elphicke defection, be both flotsam and jetsam?

    Because, though legally distinct in maritime law, in practical terms it's often impossible to distinguish between the two - so metaphorically it's a category rather than two distinct things.
    Whereas laggan is easy to distinguish.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone. Thank-you for the header.

    I think this Natalitie Elphicke thing is a QTWTAIPI - Question to Which The Answer is Probably Irrelevant.

    For @MoonRabbit - have we the result of the poll you were trailing?

    Aside: Someone needs to come up with a MoonRabbit "After Sinatra" song.

    "Moon Rabbit, Guider with a smile ..."

    "Moon Rabbit, wider by a mile...", shirley?

    (Seriously, I am only teasing @MoonRabbit; I like the way you stick your neck out with predictions which don't always come true. A lot of your, shall we say, 'out of the box thinking' is interesting and thought-provoking.)
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,653
    Taz said:

    I love BBC news articles like this. This is on their front page of top articles right now: "why parents are ditching their cars"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84z0md30z3o

    Spoiler: parents are not ditching their cars. A BBC Bristol journalist from BBC Bristol has spoken to a couple of left-wing parents in urban areas of what is now one of the UK's most left-wing cities who now cycle their kids to school.

    It's entirely unrepresentative, it is very much exaggerated and it is absolutely very BBC. Met and preachy to the core.

    ‘Jayne Wade, who lives in Easton, "burst into tears" when she first started researching the climate crisis.’

    Jesus Wept.
    Maybe they are super right-wing and they got to the bit where the heat death of Africa leads to massive, uncontrollable migration into Europe.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,958

    ydoethur said:

    Oh Mr Eagles, really, how could you say such a thing?

    It's 'Donald Trump and I.'
    As I said I am re-evaluating my choices and that includes all grammar related things.
    Including metaphors. How can just one thing, the Elphicke defection, be both flotsam and jetsam?

    Anyway, the bigger story is not that Elphicke is Labour's most right-wing MP but that Wes Streeting is running her close as he sets out his stall in the Sunday Telegraph. The health service is not to be worshipped; it must work evenings and weekends (doesn't it already?) while reducing its dependence on immigrants; it must raise productivity, harrumphs Streeting as he channels his inner Jeremy Hunt. No more banging pans in support of the NHS.

    Speaking of whom, the Chancellor tells the Sunday Times he is ready to generously compensate victims of the tainted blood scandal now that Labour will get the bill.
    Also sacking any NHS manager who attempts to silence whistleblowers. Fitting since he’s blowing so many dog whistles himself.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,653
    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    I love BBC news articles like this. This is on their front page of top articles right now: "why parents are ditching their cars"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84z0md30z3o

    Spoiler: parents are not ditching their cars. A BBC Bristol journalist from BBC Bristol has spoken to a couple of left-wing parents in urban areas of what is now one of the UK's most left-wing cities who now cycle their kids to school.

    It's entirely unrepresentative, it is very much exaggerated and it is absolutely very BBC. Met and preachy to the core.

    ‘Jayne Wade, who lives in Easton, "burst into tears" when she first started researching the climate crisis.’

    Jesus Wept.
    Maybe they are super right-wing and they got to the bit where the heat death of Africa leads to massive, uncontrollable migration into Europe.
    Also a reason for Scottish independence - going to need a hard border for when the SE of England bursts into flames.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,361
    megasaur said:

    I think Elphicke is a net win for labour. She sets an example to right wing nutters that it's ok to vote labour just this once more than she drives out disgruntled lefties (and where are they going to go?)

    Disgruntled lefties will vote Green, and they may do so in large numbers in strong Labour areas where the Tories might easily finish fourth behind Labour, Lib Dems and the Greens.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone. Thank-you for the header.

    I think this Natalitie Elphicke thing is a QTWTAIPI - Question to Which The Answer is Probably Irrelevant.

    For @MoonRabbit - have we the result of the poll you were trailing?

    Aside: Someone needs to come up with a MoonRabbit "After Sinatra" song.

    "Moon Rabbit, Guider with a smile ..."

    "Moon Rabbit, wider by a mile...", shirley?

    (Seriously, I am only teasing @MoonRabbit; I like the way you stick your neck out with predictions which don't always come true. A lot of your, shall we say, 'out of the box thinking' is interesting and thought-provoking.)
    They have out-surpassed Roger and Leon as PB's best anti-tipster, that makes them invaluable to PB.

    Whatever MoonRabbit says is going to happen then bet on the opposite.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    megasaur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Oh Mr Eagles, really, how could you say such a thing?

    It's 'Donald Trump and I.'
    As I said I am re-evaluating my choices and that includes all grammar related things.
    Including metaphors. How can just one thing, the Elphicke defection, be both flotsam and jetsam?

    Because, though legally distinct in maritime law, in practical terms it's often impossible to distinguish between the two - so metaphorically it's a category rather than two distinct things.
    Whereas laggan is easy to distinguish.
    Single g, I think ?

    Anyway, this is not about a buoy...
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,361
    Farooq said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Farooq said:

    Rereading that Orwell piece, I'm struck by how starkly miserable he is as a writer. I really don't enjoy reading his stuff. Yes, there're clever and quotable gems in there and the vision is wonderful. But it's all so fucking dour.
    Better to read Heller. You get the cleverness but it's enjoyable too. Reading Orwell is like eating plain celery for lunch, every lunch, from now until the day you die. It's probably doing you some good, but you'll want to take a claw hammer to your own sphenoid within a week.

    The only exception to that, in my opinion, is Down and Out in London and Paris which is quite entertaining in parts. Re Heller, I didn't get beyond page 5 of his most famous book. I'll try again some other time.
    It took me two goes to get past the start of the book. No regrets once I was into it, Catch-22 is one of the funniest things I've read. Not many books make me laugh out loud* but C22 did. I think the only other time that's happened was with a Martin Amis book, perhaps Money?
    YMMV but I really enjoyed Catch-22.

    *the delivery required for that is exceptional - I've read very funny books, e.g. much by Pratchett, but a literal LOL is rare
    I must laugh easily then. I'd say I come across a line or two that makes me laugh out loud in a good half of the books I read.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,913
    megasaur said:
    Maybe an interesting header might be the question of whether the Telegraph can be described as a serious newspaper of record any longer. Since it's time as the 'Borisgraph' when it faced the conlict of truth versus loyalty it doesn't seem to have recovered.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,989

    I love BBC news articles like this. This is on their front page of top articles right now: "why parents are ditching their cars"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84z0md30z3o

    Spoiler: parents are not ditching their cars. A BBC Bristol journalist from BBC Bristol has spoken to a couple of left-wing parents in urban areas of what is now one of the UK's most left-wing cities who now cycle their kids to school.

    It's entirely unrepresentative, it is very much exaggerated and it is absolutely very BBC. Met and preachy to the core.

    I am a big supporter of the BBC - I think the country is trashing a huge soft influence asset by running it down...

    But I have to say this is a fair cop Casino - DM or Express levels of journalism. I fear the journalist's/editor's biases got the better of them.
    It’s noteworthy that there’s a BBC article that’s remotely biased in that direction given the torrent of Tory talking points the organisation is cowed into spewing on a daily basis.

    There have always been weak articles like this on the site. Inevitable when you consider the volume they pump out daily. Though I’d note that at least a third of the parents at our primary school, possibly closer to half, don’t own a car. It’s perhaps of anthropological interest to those living outside big cities to understand the cultural norms and mores of the millions who do.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Not quite Fury/Usyk

    Grant Shapps and Wes Streeting to face Laura Kuenssberg
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-69029058
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779
    Farooq said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Farooq said:

    Rereading that Orwell piece, I'm struck by how starkly miserable he is as a writer. I really don't enjoy reading his stuff. Yes, there're clever and quotable gems in there and the vision is wonderful. But it's all so fucking dour.
    Better to read Heller. You get the cleverness but it's enjoyable too. Reading Orwell is like eating plain celery for lunch, every lunch, from now until the day you die. It's probably doing you some good, but you'll want to take a claw hammer to your own sphenoid within a week.

    The only exception to that, in my opinion, is Down and Out in London and Paris which is quite entertaining in parts. Re Heller, I didn't get beyond page 5 of his most famous book. I'll try again some other time.
    It took me two goes to get past the start of the book. No regrets once I was into it, Catch-22 is one of the funniest things I've read. Not many books make me laugh out loud* but C22 did. I think the only other time that's happened was with a Martin Amis book, perhaps Money?
    YMMV but I really enjoyed Catch-22.

    *the delivery required for that is exceptional - I've read very funny books, e.g. much by Pratchett, but a literal LOL is rare
    I loved Catch 22 when I was younger - I wrote my extended essay on it in CSYS English. You're right, it is outrageously funny. I tried reading it again later in life, though, and couldn't get into it so much. I think there are some books you enjoy when you're young (other examples include On the Road and the Lord of the Rings) that somehow aren't the same if you read them in middle age. On the other hand I have re-read Nineteen Eighty Four several times and it gets better each time. I'd put Great Expectations in that category too.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,989

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone. Thank-you for the header.

    I think this Natalitie Elphicke thing is a QTWTAIPI - Question to Which The Answer is Probably Irrelevant.

    For @MoonRabbit - have we the result of the poll you were trailing?

    Aside: Someone needs to come up with a MoonRabbit "After Sinatra" song.

    "Moon Rabbit, Guider with a smile ..."

    "Moon Rabbit, wider by a mile...", shirley?

    (Seriously, I am only teasing @MoonRabbit; I like the way you stick your neck out with predictions which don't always come true. A lot of your, shall we say, 'out of the box thinking' is interesting and thought-provoking.)
    They have out-surpassed Roger and Leon as PB's best anti-tipster, that makes them invaluable to PB.

    Whatever MoonRabbit says is going to happen then bet on the opposite.
    When you say you have out-surpassed them are you over-exaggerating?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,219

    megasaur said:

    I think Elphicke is a net win for labour. She sets an example to right wing nutters that it's ok to vote labour just this once more than she drives out disgruntled lefties (and where are they going to go?)

    Disgruntled lefties will vote Green, and they may do so in large numbers in strong Labour areas where the Tories might easily finish fourth behind Labour, Lib Dems and the Greens.
    Which will be great for the efficiency of the Labour vote.

    As for Elphicke, is part of the discomfort that her defection points out that sometimes, politics really is just about the personal? She may be a lousy ideological fit for Starmerite Labour, but it's clear that she really doesn't like Rishi.

    That's going to be one of the common themes once I he election is called, I suspect, but it isn't how we like to tell ourselves democracy works.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    My broad interpretation of this poll is most people don't care if Elphicke is allowed into the Labour Party. The key question for Starmer is she more trouble than she's worth? Right now he has enough political capital to afford it.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779
    ydoethur said:

    Oh Mr Eagles, really, how could you say such a thing?

    It's 'Donald Trump and I.'
    Euch, "myself". Surely the most disgusting grammar crime of modern English usage. Subtract 20 points from the IQ of anyone using it.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,958
    Pwhoaar.
    The Hanoverian coarsening of features with age gene is evidently a strong one.




    https://x.com/buzzingpop/status/1791477713590497633?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,989
    📊 Labour lead at 18pts
    Westminster voting intention

    LAB: 43% (+3)
    CON: 25% (+1)
    REF: 10% (-2)
    LDEM: 9% (-2)
    GRN: 7% (-)

    via @OpiniumResearch, 15 May

    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1792100917052891603?s=46

    Reform continues its gentle decline.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,813

    I love BBC news articles like this. This is on their front page of top articles right now: "why parents are ditching their cars"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84z0md30z3o

    Spoiler: parents are not ditching their cars. A BBC Bristol journalist from BBC Bristol has spoken to a couple of left-wing parents in urban areas of what is now one of the UK's most left-wing cities who now cycle their kids to school.

    It's entirely unrepresentative, it is very much exaggerated and it is absolutely very BBC. Met and preachy to the core.

    The bbc news page is getting like some woke version of Hello Magazine
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,838
    edited May 19
    Taz said:

    I love BBC news articles like this. This is on their front page of top articles right now: "why parents are ditching their cars"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84z0md30z3o

    Spoiler: parents are not ditching their cars. A BBC Bristol journalist from BBC Bristol has spoken to a couple of left-wing parents in urban areas of what is now one of the UK's most left-wing cities who now cycle their kids to school.

    It's entirely unrepresentative, it is very much exaggerated and it is absolutely very BBC. Met and preachy to the core.

    ‘Jayne Wade, who lives in Easton, "burst into tears" when she first started researching the climate crisis.’

    Jesus Wept.
    Given the way things look to be in 50 years' time, it's not an irrational response. And no, I don't mean yours.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Farooq said:

    Rereading that Orwell piece, I'm struck by how starkly miserable he is as a writer. I really don't enjoy reading his stuff. Yes, there're clever and quotable gems in there and the vision is wonderful. But it's all so fucking dour.
    Better to read Heller. You get the cleverness but it's enjoyable too. Reading Orwell is like eating plain celery for lunch, every lunch, from now until the day you die. It's probably doing you some good, but you'll want to take a claw hammer to your own sphenoid within a week.

    The only exception to that, in my opinion, is Down and Out in London and Paris which is quite entertaining in parts. Re Heller, I didn't get beyond page 5 of his most famous book. I'll try again some other time.
    It took me two goes to get past the start of the book. No regrets once I was into it, Catch-22 is one of the funniest things I've read. Not many books make me laugh out loud* but C22 did. I think the only other time that's happened was with a Martin Amis book, perhaps Money?
    YMMV but I really enjoyed Catch-22.

    *the delivery required for that is exceptional - I've read very funny books, e.g. much by Pratchett, but a literal LOL is rare
    I loved Catch 22 when I was younger - I wrote my extended essay on it in CSYS English. You're right, it is outrageously funny. I tried reading it again later in life, though, and couldn't get into it so much. I think there are some books you enjoy when you're young (other examples include On the Road and the Lord of the Rings) that somehow aren't the same if you read them in middle age. On the other hand I have re-read Nineteen Eighty Four several times and it gets better each time. I'd put Great Expectations in that category too.
    Nineteen Eighty Four is good, to be sure, and I have read it a few times. But it's a bit relentless. Orwell skimps on the sugar when trying to make a point and just batters the reader with a blunt object until they get it. It's all a bit Victorian in a way, all didactic and serious.

    I'll admit I've had trouble getting into Dickens and I've never read GE. What recommends it?
    It's quite short in comparison to most of his novels.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,813

    ydoethur said:

    Oh Mr Eagles, really, how could you say such a thing?

    It's 'Donald Trump and I.'
    As I said I am re-evaluating my choices and that includes all grammar related things.
    Including metaphors. How can just one thing, the Elphicke defection, be both flotsam and jetsam?

    Anyway, the bigger story is not that Elphicke is Labour's most right-wing MP but that Wes Streeting is running her close as he sets out his stall in the Sunday Telegraph. The health service is not to be worshipped; it must work evenings and weekends (doesn't it already?) while reducing its dependence on immigrants; it must raise productivity, harrumphs Streeting as he channels his inner Jeremy Hunt. No more banging pans in support of the NHS.

    Speaking of whom, the Chancellor tells the Sunday Times he is ready to generously compensate victims of the tainted blood scandal now that Labour will get the bill.
    I am tired and emotional at the moment.

    Literally tired and emotional at the fact I am off to Anfield to say goodbye to Jürgen Klopp.

    I haven't been this emotional since David Cameron announced his retirement in 2016.
    oh no so we have all that Klop stuff to look forward to today then !
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Pwhoaar.
    The Hanoverian coarsening of features with age gene is evidently a strong one.




    https://x.com/buzzingpop/status/1791477713590497633?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

    I think Hanoverians are described as "unhealthily florid with eyes like oysters" in one of the Aubrey/Maturin books.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,258
    ydoethur said:

    Oh Mr Eagles, really, how could you say such a thing?

    It's 'Donald Trump and I.'
    It’s Donald Fucking Trump and I
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631

    ydoethur said:

    Oh Mr Eagles, really, how could you say such a thing?

    It's 'Donald Trump and I.'
    Euch, "myself". Surely the most disgusting grammar crime of modern English usage. Subtract 20 points from the IQ of anyone using it.
    Where do you stand on gotten?

    “Gotten”. Shoot me now.

    A majority (54%) of those in the UK think that the economy has gotten worse in the past 12 months.

    A plurality (35%) are pessimistic about the economy in the next 12 months.


    https://x.com/martinboon/status/1792086626799145175
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    TimS said:

    📊 Labour lead at 18pts
    Westminster voting intention

    LAB: 43% (+3)
    CON: 25% (+1)
    REF: 10% (-2)
    LDEM: 9% (-2)
    GRN: 7% (-)

    via @OpiniumResearch, 15 May

    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1792100917052891603?s=46

    Reform continues its gentle decline.

    They really need Farage back, attacking the Tories hard from their right.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    AI deepfake Putin film sells big at Cannes

    https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=374876
    ..The groundbreaking film, whose trailer starts with the leader cowering on a floor in diapers, uses a deepfake of the ruler's face transplanted onto the body of a real actor.

    "To come extremely close to the dictator, we needed Putin, not an actor with make-up," Vega told AFP at the Cannes Film Festival, where he has been shopping the film to buyers.

    "I called Putin and asked him if he wanted to play in my movie... No, that was a joke.".

    ...The film follows the ruler's life over six decades from the age of 10 when he is seen being beaten by his stepfather.

    "In the end I show his death. A happy end," said Vega.

    The initial idea came to Vega during the first days of Russia's 2022 invasion of neighboring Ukraine.

    "First, I wanted to do a movie about the Russian mafia. Then I decided to do it about the biggest gangster," he said.

    He shrugged off any concerns about reprisals.

    "Putin should be afraid of me," he said.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,361
    edited May 19

    megasaur said:

    I think Elphicke is a net win for labour. She sets an example to right wing nutters that it's ok to vote labour just this once more than she drives out disgruntled lefties (and where are they going to go?)

    Disgruntled lefties will vote Green, and they may do so in large numbers in strong Labour areas where the Tories might easily finish fourth behind Labour, Lib Dems and the Greens.
    Which will be great for the efficiency of the Labour vote.

    As for Elphicke, is part of the discomfort that her defection points out that sometimes, politics really is just about the personal? She may be a lousy ideological fit for Starmerite Labour, but it's clear that she really doesn't like Rishi.

    That's going to be one of the common themes once I he election is called, I suspect, but it isn't how we like to tell ourselves democracy works.
    One of the things humans do a lot of is to simplify things. This enables us to make quick and simple decisions without expending a lot of effort on them each time.

    In politics one way this occurs is in categorising people on a simplistic left/right axis. So then we can say, "Person x says this, therefore they are right-wing, therefore set disapproval to maximum setting."

    Elphicke clearly has some views, particularly on immigration and Brexit, that would lead most people to place her on the further reaches of the right/left axis. But her views (and voting record) on welfare spending are to the left of the Tory government since 2010, and her views on housing seem quite flexible. She's a also reflected on her actions when her husband was accused and convicted and admitted to error. So she does seem to break the simplistic model.

    As, I suspect, most people do, if you look close enough.
  • MuesliMuesli Posts: 202
    edited May 19
    Taz said:

    I love BBC news articles like this. This is on their front page of top articles right now: "why parents are ditching their cars"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84z0md30z3o

    Spoiler: parents are not ditching their cars. A BBC Bristol journalist from BBC Bristol has spoken to a couple of left-wing parents in urban areas of what is now one of the UK's most left-wing cities who now cycle their kids to school.

    It's entirely unrepresentative, it is very much exaggerated and it is absolutely very BBC. Met and preachy to the core.

    ‘Jayne Wade, who lives in Easton, "burst into tears" when she first started researching the climate crisis.’

    Jesus Wept.
    No, Jayne wept.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    TimS said:

    I love BBC news articles like this. This is on their front page of top articles right now: "why parents are ditching their cars"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84z0md30z3o

    Spoiler: parents are not ditching their cars. A BBC Bristol journalist from BBC Bristol has spoken to a couple of left-wing parents in urban areas of what is now one of the UK's most left-wing cities who now cycle their kids to school.

    It's entirely unrepresentative, it is very much exaggerated and it is absolutely very BBC. Met and preachy to the core.

    I am a big supporter of the BBC - I think the country is trashing a huge soft influence asset by running it down...

    But I have to say this is a fair cop Casino - DM or Express levels of journalism. I fear the journalist's/editor's biases got the better of them.
    It’s noteworthy that there’s a BBC article that’s remotely biased in that direction given the torrent of Tory talking points the organisation is cowed into spewing on a daily basis.

    There have always been weak articles like this on the site. Inevitable when you consider the volume they pump out daily. Though I’d note that at least a third of the parents at our primary school, possibly closer to half, don’t own a car. It’s perhaps of anthropological interest to those living outside big cities to understand the cultural norms and mores of the millions who do.
    Yes. I think there's a more interesting story to be written about the inconvenience of bringing up a family without the use of a car that would still fit the topic.

    To your point I'm guessing most young families are in cities because that's where the jobs are.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,152
    edited May 19

    I love BBC news articles like this. This is on their front page of top articles right now: "why parents are ditching their cars"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84z0md30z3o

    Spoiler: parents are not ditching their cars. A BBC Bristol journalist from BBC Bristol has spoken to a couple of left-wing parents in urban areas of what is now one of the UK's most left-wing cities who now cycle their kids to school.

    It's entirely unrepresentative, it is very much exaggerated and it is absolutely very BBC. Met and preachy to the core.

    I am a big supporter of the BBC - I think the country is trashing a huge soft influence asset by running it down...

    But I have to say this is a fair cop Casino - DM or Express levels of journalism. I fear the journalist's/editor's biases got the better of them.
    The framing is a little strange - it's the BBC website in Guardian mode, publishing different one strand of opinion in one piece with a headline making it look more universal. It is a regional piece for Bristol, about Bristol, which is an important aspect.

    Interviewees are 2 people who have been arrested in climate change demos, a relevant transport / mobility academic and a public health professional, who is also relevant. So a fairly narrow base.

    The reduced vehicular travel trend is interesting, and afaik is Western Europe wide over a 20 year period - Eastern is different due to increased ownership. Surprised the trend of distinctly reduced vehicle ownership amongst younger 'generations' was not mentioned. Those need more examination.

    The writer seems to have a beat around entertainment and local news, and this as a personal side interest.
    https://muckrack.com/emma-grimshaw/articles

    My take - main thing is that it could have been flagged as an piece with a significant opinion element. IMO it's OK as a "look at this opinion spectrum putting forward this case" piece, with some valuable comments, but needs better framing.

    There are other aspects that could have been picked up that would have made it better. There was a great somewhat provocative quote on the school run in the video about Waterbeach I posted yesterday that'll I'll have a look for - abotu Antisocial behaviour caused by competitive parking.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631
    Farooq said:

    ydoethur said:

    Oh Mr Eagles, really, how could you say such a thing?

    It's 'Donald Trump and I.'
    Euch, "myself". Surely the most disgusting grammar crime of modern English usage. Subtract 20 points from the IQ of anyone using it.
    Where do you stand on gotten?

    “Gotten”. Shoot me now.

    A majority (54%) of those in the UK think that the economy has gotten worse in the past 12 months.

    A plurality (35%) are pessimistic about the economy in the next 12 months.


    https://x.com/martinboon/status/1792086626799145175
    Come on, brave soldiers: doubt not of the day,
    And, that once gotten, doubt not of large pay.


    If it's good enough for Shakespeare, it's good enough for you
    I like the word gotten for the Shakespeare angle you mention, I was just curious about OnlyLivingBoy's take.

    I like Martin Boon a lot and was amused by his comment.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    ...

    I love BBC news articles like this. This is on their front page of top articles right now: "why parents are ditching their cars"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84z0md30z3o

    Spoiler: parents are not ditching their cars. A BBC Bristol journalist from BBC Bristol has spoken to a couple of left-wing parents in urban areas of what is now one of the UK's most left-wing cities who now cycle their kids to school.

    It's entirely unrepresentative, it is very much exaggerated and it is absolutely very BBC. Met and preachy to the core.

    I am a big supporter of the BBC - I think the country is trashing a huge soft influence asset by running it down...

    But I have to say this is a fair cop Casino - DM or Express levels of journalism. I fear the journalist's/editor's biases got the better of them.
    I didn't find the article particularly offensive. Jettisoning the cars for bikes and public transport isn't on my agenda, although if it were a practical proposition I'd be much happier to curtail my 30,000 miles a year habit for the relative calm of a strike-free train service.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370

    I love BBC news articles like this. This is on their front page of top articles right now: "why parents are ditching their cars"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84z0md30z3o

    Spoiler: parents are not ditching their cars. A BBC Bristol journalist from BBC Bristol has spoken to a couple of left-wing parents in urban areas of what is now one of the UK's most left-wing cities who now cycle their kids to school.

    It's entirely unrepresentative, it is very much exaggerated and it is absolutely very BBC. Met and preachy to the core.

    I am a big supporter of the BBC - I think the country is trashing a huge soft influence asset by running it down...

    But I have to say this is a fair cop Casino - DM or Express levels of journalism. I fear the journalist's/editor's biases got the better of them.
    It’s a story designed to get past an editor and so keep busy for the day / earn some money (if a freelancer).

    Yep the story makes zero sense outside of the context of Bristol (but from my memory of Bristol hills are unavoidable so rather them then me cycling round).
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,989
    edited May 19
    Muesli said:

    Taz said:

    I love BBC news articles like this. This is on their front page of top articles right now: "why parents are ditching their cars"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84z0md30z3o

    Spoiler: parents are not ditching their cars. A BBC Bristol journalist from BBC Bristol has spoken to a couple of left-wing parents in urban areas of what is now one of the UK's most left-wing cities who now cycle their kids to school.

    It's entirely unrepresentative, it is very much exaggerated and it is absolutely very BBC. Met and preachy to the core.

    ‘Jayne Wade, who lives in Easton, "burst into tears" when she first started researching the climate crisis.’

    Jesus Wept.
    No, Jayne wept.
    No, it was a typo in the article. Should have been “Jesus Christ, who lives on the West Bank, “burst into tears” when he first started researching the climate crisis”.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,813

    I love BBC news articles like this. This is on their front page of top articles right now: "why parents are ditching their cars"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84z0md30z3o

    Spoiler: parents are not ditching their cars. A BBC Bristol journalist from BBC Bristol has spoken to a couple of left-wing parents in urban areas of what is now one of the UK's most left-wing cities who now cycle their kids to school.

    It's entirely unrepresentative, it is very much exaggerated and it is absolutely very BBC. Met and preachy to the core.

    The bbc is so preachy and presents itself as the arbiter of truth . The most annoying thing about it in the last ten years is that it makes this big thing about FACT CHECKING and things that have not been VERIFIED by the BBC (even if patently obvious in some cases) yet it does these kind of stories to puff up some do -gooding like the Britains kindest plumber stories (no BBC fact checking done there it seems and then presents a few months later (when some other body has found the do-gooding is all rubbish and made-up) a story that never mentions the bbc were duped as well
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,361

    Pwhoaar.
    The Hanoverian coarsening of features with age gene is evidently a strong one.




    https://x.com/buzzingpop/status/1791477713590497633?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

    For people not willing to click through, the caption to the photo is:

    "Prince William has been named UK's third sexiest man of 2024."

    Pity the man who came fourth. Somewhere in his attic Prince William doubtless has a portrait showing him at the peak of youthful beauty.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,601
    TimS said:

    I love BBC news articles like this. This is on their front page of top articles right now: "why parents are ditching their cars"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84z0md30z3o

    Spoiler: parents are not ditching their cars. A BBC Bristol journalist from BBC Bristol has spoken to a couple of left-wing parents in urban areas of what is now one of the UK's most left-wing cities who now cycle their kids to school.

    It's entirely unrepresentative, it is very much exaggerated and it is absolutely very BBC. Met and preachy to the core.

    I am a big supporter of the BBC - I think the country is trashing a huge soft influence asset by running it down...

    But I have to say this is a fair cop Casino - DM or Express levels of journalism. I fear the journalist's/editor's biases got the better of them.
    It’s noteworthy that there’s a BBC article that’s remotely biased in that direction given the torrent of Tory talking points the organisation is cowed into spewing on a daily basis.

    There have always been weak articles like this on the site. Inevitable when you consider the volume they pump out daily. Though I’d note that at least a third of the parents at our primary school, possibly closer to half, don’t own a car. It’s perhaps of anthropological interest to those living outside big cities to understand the cultural norms and mores of the millions who do.
    Nearly a quarter of households don't have a car.

    But the subset of that of households who can drive and can afford a car but chose not to have one is much smaller.

    Car ownership in Bristol is only slightly lower than the national average:

    https://www.driving.org/new-study-names-the-regions-with-the-highest-car-ownership-per-household/
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    edited May 19
    Nigelb said:

    Not quite Fury/Usyk

    Grant Shapps and Wes Streeting to face Laura Kuenssberg
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-69029058

    So in typical Laura Kuenssberg style she has got 4 Tory interviewees (Grant Shapps, Michael Green, Corinne Stockheath and Sebastian Fox) and 1 Labour
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,989
    edited May 19
    FF43 said:

    TimS said:

    I love BBC news articles like this. This is on their front page of top articles right now: "why parents are ditching their cars"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84z0md30z3o

    Spoiler: parents are not ditching their cars. A BBC Bristol journalist from BBC Bristol has spoken to a couple of left-wing parents in urban areas of what is now one of the UK's most left-wing cities who now cycle their kids to school.

    It's entirely unrepresentative, it is very much exaggerated and it is absolutely very BBC. Met and preachy to the core.

    I am a big supporter of the BBC - I think the country is trashing a huge soft influence asset by running it down...

    But I have to say this is a fair cop Casino - DM or Express levels of journalism. I fear the journalist's/editor's biases got the better of them.
    It’s noteworthy that there’s a BBC article that’s remotely biased in that direction given the torrent of Tory talking points the organisation is cowed into spewing on a daily basis.

    There have always been weak articles like this on the site. Inevitable when you consider the volume they pump out daily. Though I’d note that at least a third of the parents at our primary school, possibly closer to half, don’t own a car. It’s perhaps of anthropological interest to those living outside big cities to understand the cultural norms and mores of the millions who do.
    Yes. I think there's a more interesting story to be written about the inconvenience of bringing up a family without the use of a car that would still fit the topic.

    To your point I'm guessing most young families are in cities because that's where the jobs are.
    Their jobs are there of course, but they’ve also made the decision to stay in the inner city rather than commute from the suburbs.

    Those without cars generally say they don’t miss them but it must cause issues when it comes to taking rubbish to the tip or picking up furniture from IKEA.

    The carless parent cohort are a cross section from poor and on benefits to pretty wealthy and working in the city.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647

    ydoethur said:

    Oh Mr Eagles, really, how could you say such a thing?

    It's 'Donald Trump and I.'
    Euch, "myself". Surely the most disgusting grammar crime of modern English usage. Subtract 20 points from the IQ of anyone using it.
    Where do you stand on gotten?

    “Gotten”. Shoot me now.

    A majority (54%) of those in the UK think that the economy has gotten worse in the past 12 months.

    A plurality (35%) are pessimistic about the economy in the next 12 months.


    https://x.com/martinboon/status/1792086626799145175
    Like many american usages, gotten is actually an archaic form of British English, having persisted.

    https://www.sarahwoodbury.com/on-the-use-of-the-word-gotten/
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    ydoethur said:

    Oh Mr Eagles, really, how could you say such a thing?

    It's 'Donald Trump and I.'
    Euch, "myself". Surely the most disgusting grammar crime of modern English usage. Subtract 20 points from the IQ of anyone using it.
    Where do you stand on gotten?

    “Gotten”. Shoot me now.

    A majority (54%) of those in the UK think that the economy has gotten worse in the past 12 months.

    A plurality (35%) are pessimistic about the economy in the next 12 months.


    https://x.com/martinboon/status/1792086626799145175
    Come on, brave soldiers: doubt not of the day,
    And, that once gotten, doubt not of large pay.


    If it's good enough for Shakespeare, it's good enough for you
    I like the word gotten for the Shakespeare angle you mention, I was just curious about OnlyLivingBoy's take.

    I like Martin Boon a lot and was amused by his comment.
    Myself too
    I know I hide it well but I absolutely love Shakespeare.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,913
    IanB2 said:

    Today’s Sunday Rawnsley, brought to you from a reasonably warm Friuli:

    Fear may not be an edifying strategy for securing power, but the Tories have repeatedly demonstrated that it can be highly effective.

    There are at least three big obstacles for the Tories in making this approach work in the current climate. The first is that successful exploitation of the security card depends on the person playing the card being perceived as a strong personality. The next serious handicap for the Tory leader is his government’s poor credentials on security issues. Yet another pitfall of the fear factor is that it tends to be effective only when it goes with the grain of pre-existing worries among the voters. Scare tactics need to have at least some shred of credibility.

    For all the effort they will put into it, the Tories are going to struggle to turn Sir Keir into a convincingly frightening bogey figure. When gathered into focus groups by pollsters, voters often have rude things to say about the Labour leader. Scary is rarely one of them. Central to his project has been de-risking perceptions of Labour.

    It is demonstrative of Labour’s risk-aversion that “tough spending rules” gets such a prominent place on the card and the consequences of this are felt in everything else the party feels able to say. This flows from a reading of the electorate that interprets the public as too cynical and mistrustful of politicians to buy into grandiose claims. The Labour leader talks in a way which suggests he thinks that what voters most crave at the moment is reassurance and predictability.

    The contrast between the Tory and Labour leaders tells us how each hope to frame the choice at the election. Scary Sunak sounds like a man trying to keep everyone awake at night. Soothing Starmer sounds like a man who wants you to be able to sleep a bit more soundly. Most people like their shut-eye.

    Starmer has absorbed a book on the basics of the art of persuasion or more likely employed a half decent ad agency. It seems like Sunak hasn't. Not as surprising as it sounds. Some people find the logic difficult to accept. Particularly I suspect mathematicians.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385
    Muesli said:

    Taz said:

    I love BBC news articles like this. This is on their front page of top articles right now: "why parents are ditching their cars"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84z0md30z3o

    Spoiler: parents are not ditching their cars. A BBC Bristol journalist from BBC Bristol has spoken to a couple of left-wing parents in urban areas of what is now one of the UK's most left-wing cities who now cycle their kids to school.

    It's entirely unrepresentative, it is very much exaggerated and it is absolutely very BBC. Met and preachy to the core.

    ‘Jayne Wade, who lives in Easton, "burst into tears" when she first started researching the climate crisis.’

    Jesus Wept.
    No, Jayne wept.
    That’s worth a ‘like’
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    TimS said:

    FF43 said:

    TimS said:

    I love BBC news articles like this. This is on their front page of top articles right now: "why parents are ditching their cars"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84z0md30z3o

    Spoiler: parents are not ditching their cars. A BBC Bristol journalist from BBC Bristol has spoken to a couple of left-wing parents in urban areas of what is now one of the UK's most left-wing cities who now cycle their kids to school.

    It's entirely unrepresentative, it is very much exaggerated and it is absolutely very BBC. Met and preachy to the core.

    I am a big supporter of the BBC - I think the country is trashing a huge soft influence asset by running it down...

    But I have to say this is a fair cop Casino - DM or Express levels of journalism. I fear the journalist's/editor's biases got the better of them.
    It’s noteworthy that there’s a BBC article that’s remotely biased in that direction given the torrent of Tory talking points the organisation is cowed into spewing on a daily basis.

    There have always been weak articles like this on the site. Inevitable when you consider the volume they pump out daily. Though I’d note that at least a third of the parents at our primary school, possibly closer to half, don’t own a car. It’s perhaps of anthropological interest to those living outside big cities to understand the cultural norms and mores of the millions who do.
    Yes. I think there's a more interesting story to be written about the inconvenience of bringing up a family without the use of a car that would still fit the topic.

    To your point I'm guessing most young families are in cities because that's where the jobs are.
    Their jobs are there of course, but they’ve also made the decision to stay in the inner city rather than commute from the suburbs.

    Those without cars generally say they don’t miss them but it must cause issues when it comes to taking rubbish to the tip or picking up furniture from IKEA.

    The carless parent cohort are a cross section from poor and on benefits to pretty wealthy and working in the city.
    The thing is I could easily live in the centre of any big city and would rarely if ever need a car but most people live in areas where cars are unavoidable because a lot of things are more than 15 minutes walk away
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931
    TimS said:

    📊 Labour lead at 18pts
    Westminster voting intention

    LAB: 43% (+3)
    CON: 25% (+1)
    REF: 10% (-2)
    LDEM: 9% (-2)
    GRN: 7% (-)

    via @OpiniumResearch, 15 May

    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1792100917052891603?s=46

    Reform continues its gentle decline.

    Not all going back to the Tories, though.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385
    TimS said:

    Muesli said:

    Taz said:

    I love BBC news articles like this. This is on their front page of top articles right now: "why parents are ditching their cars"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84z0md30z3o

    Spoiler: parents are not ditching their cars. A BBC Bristol journalist from BBC Bristol has spoken to a couple of left-wing parents in urban areas of what is now one of the UK's most left-wing cities who now cycle their kids to school.

    It's entirely unrepresentative, it is very much exaggerated and it is absolutely very BBC. Met and preachy to the core.

    ‘Jayne Wade, who lives in Easton, "burst into tears" when she first started researching the climate crisis.’

    Jesus Wept.
    No, Jayne wept.
    No, it was a typo in the article. Should have been “Jesus Christ, who lives on the West Bank, “burst into tears” when he first started researching the climate crisis”.
    Jesus Christ, who lived in the West Bank but whose home was demolished by a far right Israeli regime to accommodate settlers. That’s probably why he wept 🤔
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Not quite Fury/Usyk

    Grant Shapps and Wes Streeting to face Laura Kuenssberg
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-69029058

    So in typical Laura Kuenssberg style she has got 4 Tory interviewees (Grant Shapps, Michael Green, Corinne Stockheath and Sebastian Fox) and 1 Labour
    A joke that never gets old or laboured.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Farooq said:

    Rereading that Orwell piece, I'm struck by how starkly miserable he is as a writer. I really don't enjoy reading his stuff. Yes, there're clever and quotable gems in there and the vision is wonderful. But it's all so fucking dour.
    Better to read Heller. You get the cleverness but it's enjoyable too. Reading Orwell is like eating plain celery for lunch, every lunch, from now until the day you die. It's probably doing you some good, but you'll want to take a claw hammer to your own sphenoid within a week.

    The only exception to that, in my opinion, is Down and Out in London and Paris which is quite entertaining in parts. Re Heller, I didn't get beyond page 5 of his most famous book. I'll try again some other time.
    It took me two goes to get past the start of the book. No regrets once I was into it, Catch-22 is one of the funniest things I've read. Not many books make me laugh out loud* but C22 did. I think the only other time that's happened was with a Martin Amis book, perhaps Money?
    YMMV but I really enjoyed Catch-22.

    *the delivery required for that is exceptional - I've read very funny books, e.g. much by Pratchett, but a literal LOL is rare
    I loved Catch 22 when I was younger - I wrote my extended essay on it in CSYS English. You're right, it is outrageously funny. I tried reading it again later in life, though, and couldn't get into it so much. I think there are some books you enjoy when you're young (other examples include On the Road and the Lord of the Rings) that somehow aren't the same if you read them in middle age. On the other hand I have re-read Nineteen Eighty Four several times and it gets better each time. I'd put Great Expectations in that category too.
    Nineteen Eighty Four is good, to be sure, and I have read it a few times. But it's a bit relentless. Orwell skimps on the sugar when trying to make a point and just batters the reader with a blunt object until they get it. It's all a bit Victorian in a way, all didactic and serious.

    I'll admit I've had trouble getting into Dickens and I've never read GE. What recommends it?
    I'm grateful to my English teacher who ditched Great Expectations as our set book after a few chapters saying, "I can't stand this". Which meant I could come back to it as an adult when it would have been killed for me for ever if we had persevered.

    What recommends it is great story telling. It has a very satisfying narrative that runs through the book despite the many deviations. It is a long novel rewarding patience, which is something you develop as you get older.

    A similar experience for me with Heart of Midlothian, which after three false starts I loved. It's a cracking read.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,894
    Nigelb said:

    Not quite Fury/Usyk

    Grant Shapps and Wes Streeting to face Laura Kuenssberg
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-69029058

    Is Laura Kuenssberg another of Grant Shapps's pseudonyms? It would explain a lot.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931
    Edit: tried to show a photo but it was too blurry. Get it sorted, Vanilla!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    MattW said:

    I love BBC news articles like this. This is on their front page of top articles right now: "why parents are ditching their cars"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84z0md30z3o

    Spoiler: parents are not ditching their cars. A BBC Bristol journalist from BBC Bristol has spoken to a couple of left-wing parents in urban areas of what is now one of the UK's most left-wing cities who now cycle their kids to school.

    It's entirely unrepresentative, it is very much exaggerated and it is absolutely very BBC. Met and preachy to the core.

    I am a big supporter of the BBC - I think the country is trashing a huge soft influence asset by running it down...

    But I have to say this is a fair cop Casino - DM or Express levels of journalism. I fear the journalist's/editor's biases got the better of them.
    The framing is a little strange - it's the BBC website in Guardian mode, publishing different one strand of opinion in one piece with a headline making it look more universal. It is a regional piece for Bristol, about Bristol, which is an important aspect.

    Interviewees are 2 people who have been arrested in climate change demos, a relevant transport / mobility academic and a public health professional, who is also relevant. So a fairly narrow base.

    The reduced vehicular travel trend is interesting, and afaik is Western Europe wide over a 20 year period - Eastern is different due to increased ownership. Surprised the trend of distinctly reduced vehicle ownership amongst younger 'generations' was not mentioned. Those need more examination.

    The writer seems to have a beat around entertainment and local news, and this as a personal side interest.
    https://muckrack.com/emma-grimshaw/articles

    My take - main thing is that it could have been flagged as an piece with a significant opinion element. IMO it's OK as a "look at this opinion spectrum putting forward this case" piece, with some valuable comments, but needs better framing.

    There are other aspects that could have been picked up that would have made it better. There was a great somewhat provocative quote on the school run in the video about Waterbeach I posted yesterday that'll I'll have a look for - abotu Antisocial behaviour caused by competitive parking.
    Fewer and fewer young people drive. I was desperate for wheels aged 17 but Fox Jr1 didn't get a car until he reached 27, and still does a very low mileage, and Fox jr2 at 23 has not even had a driving lesson. Their partners similar. It's not so much being eco-warriors (neither are very green) more to do with the costs and inconvenience of having cars. Perhaps socialising and meeting online has affected car ownership like it has pubs.

    It's an interesting social phenomenon, and has implications for the future of housing. Sure, some will adopt driving later in life, but not all. They will prefer high density living with walkable facilities and public transport, once again mostly due to lifestyle rather than Ideology.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,377
    Catch-22 brings back memories of my late father spending an entire week chuckling inanely while he read it. The only other thing that made him laugh as much was Tommy Cooper.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    TimS said:

    FF43 said:

    TimS said:

    I love BBC news articles like this. This is on their front page of top articles right now: "why parents are ditching their cars"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84z0md30z3o

    Spoiler: parents are not ditching their cars. A BBC Bristol journalist from BBC Bristol has spoken to a couple of left-wing parents in urban areas of what is now one of the UK's most left-wing cities who now cycle their kids to school.

    It's entirely unrepresentative, it is very much exaggerated and it is absolutely very BBC. Met and preachy to the core.

    I am a big supporter of the BBC - I think the country is trashing a huge soft influence asset by running it down...

    But I have to say this is a fair cop Casino - DM or Express levels of journalism. I fear the journalist's/editor's biases got the better of them.
    It’s noteworthy that there’s a BBC article that’s remotely biased in that direction given the torrent of Tory talking points the organisation is cowed into spewing on a daily basis.

    There have always been weak articles like this on the site. Inevitable when you consider the volume they pump out daily. Though I’d note that at least a third of the parents at our primary school, possibly closer to half, don’t own a car. It’s perhaps of anthropological interest to those living outside big cities to understand the cultural norms and mores of the millions who do.
    Yes. I think there's a more interesting story to be written about the inconvenience of bringing up a family without the use of a car that would still fit the topic.

    To your point I'm guessing most young families are in cities because that's where the jobs are.
    Their jobs are there of course, but they’ve also made the decision to stay in the inner city rather than commute from the suburbs.

    Those without cars generally say they don’t miss them but it must cause issues when it comes to taking rubbish to the tip or picking up furniture from IKEA.

    The carless parent cohort are a cross section from poor and on benefits to pretty wealthy and working in the city.
    The walking and cycling parents in Bristol, at least the ones the BBC found, are the very lucky few who can both afford to live around the corner from the good school, and have a parent without a tight morning schedule.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,377
    Sandpit said:

    TimS said:

    FF43 said:

    TimS said:

    I love BBC news articles like this. This is on their front page of top articles right now: "why parents are ditching their cars"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84z0md30z3o

    Spoiler: parents are not ditching their cars. A BBC Bristol journalist from BBC Bristol has spoken to a couple of left-wing parents in urban areas of what is now one of the UK's most left-wing cities who now cycle their kids to school.

    It's entirely unrepresentative, it is very much exaggerated and it is absolutely very BBC. Met and preachy to the core.

    I am a big supporter of the BBC - I think the country is trashing a huge soft influence asset by running it down...

    But I have to say this is a fair cop Casino - DM or Express levels of journalism. I fear the journalist's/editor's biases got the better of them.
    It’s noteworthy that there’s a BBC article that’s remotely biased in that direction given the torrent of Tory talking points the organisation is cowed into spewing on a daily basis.

    There have always been weak articles like this on the site. Inevitable when you consider the volume they pump out daily. Though I’d note that at least a third of the parents at our primary school, possibly closer to half, don’t own a car. It’s perhaps of anthropological interest to those living outside big cities to understand the cultural norms and mores of the millions who do.
    Yes. I think there's a more interesting story to be written about the inconvenience of bringing up a family without the use of a car that would still fit the topic.

    To your point I'm guessing most young families are in cities because that's where the jobs are.
    Their jobs are there of course, but they’ve also made the decision to stay in the inner city rather than commute from the suburbs.

    Those without cars generally say they don’t miss them but it must cause issues when it comes to taking rubbish to the tip or picking up furniture from IKEA.

    The carless parent cohort are a cross section from poor and on benefits to pretty wealthy and working in the city.
    The walking and cycling parents in Bristol, at least the ones the BBC found, are the very lucky few who can both afford to live around the corner from the good school, and have a parent without a tight morning schedule.
    Although people I know in central Bristol report that walking is usually quicker than driving due to the permanent traffic jam, especially at rush hours.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,258
    a
    Taz said:

    TimS said:

    Muesli said:

    Taz said:

    I love BBC news articles like this. This is on their front page of top articles right now: "why parents are ditching their cars"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84z0md30z3o

    Spoiler: parents are not ditching their cars. A BBC Bristol journalist from BBC Bristol has spoken to a couple of left-wing parents in urban areas of what is now one of the UK's most left-wing cities who now cycle their kids to school.

    It's entirely unrepresentative, it is very much exaggerated and it is absolutely very BBC. Met and preachy to the core.

    ‘Jayne Wade, who lives in Easton, "burst into tears" when she first started researching the climate crisis.’

    Jesus Wept.
    No, Jayne wept.
    No, it was a typo in the article. Should have been “Jesus Christ, who lives on the West Bank, “burst into tears” when he first started researching the climate crisis”.
    Jesus Christ, who lived in the West Bank but whose home was demolished by a far right Israeli regime to accommodate settlers. That’s probably why he wept 🤔
    Those parents are way behind the curve. In the really expensive bits of West London, the must have accessory is a Danish branded cargo bike to take your infants to school. For years now.

    A Chelsea tractor on the school run has been the social equivalent of reading the Sun on public for a long, long time.

    There’s a couple of “Christiana” branded ones, locally. Which makes me smile every time I see them.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647

    Catch-22 brings back memories of my late father spending an entire week chuckling inanely while he read it. The only other thing that made him laugh as much was Tommy Cooper.

    Catch-22 is very funny.

    "God Knows" by the same author is very good too, but I didn't find Heller's other books very gripping.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,601
    Sandpit said:

    TimS said:

    FF43 said:

    TimS said:

    I love BBC news articles like this. This is on their front page of top articles right now: "why parents are ditching their cars"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84z0md30z3o

    Spoiler: parents are not ditching their cars. A BBC Bristol journalist from BBC Bristol has spoken to a couple of left-wing parents in urban areas of what is now one of the UK's most left-wing cities who now cycle their kids to school.

    It's entirely unrepresentative, it is very much exaggerated and it is absolutely very BBC. Met and preachy to the core.

    I am a big supporter of the BBC - I think the country is trashing a huge soft influence asset by running it down...

    But I have to say this is a fair cop Casino - DM or Express levels of journalism. I fear the journalist's/editor's biases got the better of them.
    It’s noteworthy that there’s a BBC article that’s remotely biased in that direction given the torrent of Tory talking points the organisation is cowed into spewing on a daily basis.

    There have always been weak articles like this on the site. Inevitable when you consider the volume they pump out daily. Though I’d note that at least a third of the parents at our primary school, possibly closer to half, don’t own a car. It’s perhaps of anthropological interest to those living outside big cities to understand the cultural norms and mores of the millions who do.
    Yes. I think there's a more interesting story to be written about the inconvenience of bringing up a family without the use of a car that would still fit the topic.

    To your point I'm guessing most young families are in cities because that's where the jobs are.
    Their jobs are there of course, but they’ve also made the decision to stay in the inner city rather than commute from the suburbs.

    Those without cars generally say they don’t miss them but it must cause issues when it comes to taking rubbish to the tip or picking up furniture from IKEA.

    The carless parent cohort are a cross section from poor and on benefits to pretty wealthy and working in the city.
    The walking and cycling parents in Bristol, at least the ones the BBC found, are the very lucky few who can both afford to live around the corner from the good school, and have a parent without a tight morning schedule.
    Working from home helps such a lifestyle.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,258
    Taz said:

    TimS said:

    Muesli said:

    Taz said:

    I love BBC news articles like this. This is on their front page of top articles right now: "why parents are ditching their cars"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84z0md30z3o

    Spoiler: parents are not ditching their cars. A BBC Bristol journalist from BBC Bristol has spoken to a couple of left-wing parents in urban areas of what is now one of the UK's most left-wing cities who now cycle their kids to school.

    It's entirely unrepresentative, it is very much exaggerated and it is absolutely very BBC. Met and preachy to the core.

    ‘Jayne Wade, who lives in Easton, "burst into tears" when she first started researching the climate crisis.’

    Jesus Wept.
    No, Jayne wept.
    No, it was a typo in the article. Should have been “Jesus Christ, who lives on the West Bank, “burst into tears” when he first started researching the climate crisis”.
    Jesus Christ, who lived in the West Bank but whose home was demolished by a far right Israeli regime to accommodate settlers. That’s probably why he wept 🤔
    I thought he wept because they sacrificed the donkey, from the stable in which he was born, in a non-existent ritual?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    Catch-22 brings back memories of my late father spending an entire week chuckling inanely while he read it. The only other thing that made him laugh as much was Tommy Cooper.

    Great novel. I read it when I was young. Used to devour books back then when I had no time to read.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,320

    Pwhoaar.
    The Hanoverian coarsening of features with age gene is evidently a strong one.




    https://x.com/buzzingpop/status/1791477713590497633?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

    looks more like Wallace every day
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    ...

    I love BBC news articles like this. This is on their front page of top articles right now: "why parents are ditching their cars"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84z0md30z3o

    Spoiler: parents are not ditching their cars. A BBC Bristol journalist from BBC Bristol has spoken to a couple of left-wing parents in urban areas of what is now one of the UK's most left-wing cities who now cycle their kids to school.

    It's entirely unrepresentative, it is very much exaggerated and it is absolutely very BBC. Met and preachy to the core.

    I am a big supporter of the BBC - I think the country is trashing a huge soft influence asset by running it down...

    But I have to say this is a fair cop Casino - DM or Express levels of journalism. I fear the journalist's/editor's biases got the better of them.
    I didn't find the article particularly offensive. Jettisoning the cars for bikes and public transport isn't on my agenda, although if it were a practical proposition I'd be much happier to curtail my 30,000 miles a year habit for the relative calm of a strike-free train service.
    Neither of my children have yet bothered to pass a driving test (and only one of them will probably get around to it), and they aren’t particularly unusual in that.
    Another decade, and possibly no one will need to any more, anyway.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    edited May 19

    Edit: tried to show a photo but it was too blurry. Get it sorted, Vanilla!

    Embed a link to the image in your post using:

    image

    Where url is the image address (right-click image, copy address). You can miss out the alt="text" bit.

    (Edit: Unless it's an image of a wine glass on a table from a balcony in a nondescript hotel someone else is paying for, in which case spare us.)
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,152
    edited May 19
    FF43 said:

    TimS said:

    I love BBC news articles like this. This is on their front page of top articles right now: "why parents are ditching their cars"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84z0md30z3o

    Spoiler: parents are not ditching their cars. A BBC Bristol journalist from BBC Bristol has spoken to a couple of left-wing parents in urban areas of what is now one of the UK's most left-wing cities who now cycle their kids to school.

    It's entirely unrepresentative, it is very much exaggerated and it is absolutely very BBC. Met and preachy to the core.

    I am a big supporter of the BBC - I think the country is trashing a huge soft influence asset by running it down...

    But I have to say this is a fair cop Casino - DM or Express levels of journalism. I fear the journalist's/editor's biases got the better of them.
    It’s noteworthy that there’s a BBC article that’s remotely biased in that direction given the torrent of Tory talking points the organisation is cowed into spewing on a daily basis.

    There have always been weak articles like this on the site. Inevitable when you consider the volume they pump out daily. Though I’d note that at least a third of the parents at our primary school, possibly closer to half, don’t own a car. It’s perhaps of anthropological interest to those living outside big cities to understand the cultural norms and mores of the millions who do.
    Yes. I think there's a more interesting story to be written about the inconvenience of bringing up a family without the use of a car that would still fit the topic.

    To your point I'm guessing most young families are in cities because that's where the jobs are.
    There was a great slightly provocative quote on the school run in the video about Waterbeach I posted yesterday:

    "With the local schools team, we said what what do you need in terms of access - how much parking do you need for parents in the morning? They basically said we don't want any because whatever you do outside the front of a primary school it will be chaos.

    If you provide 50 parking spaces they'll be filled and more. If you provide none it will all be filled and more. So we'd rather you didn't provide any. So that was actually quite encouraging and not really the answer we'd expected."


    (Separate facility provided for staff, disabled access etc. Plus a local mobility hub within walking distance on paths through amenity space.)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVCgReNi3nM&t=1000s
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    edited May 19
    Taz said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Not quite Fury/Usyk

    Grant Shapps and Wes Streeting to face Laura Kuenssberg
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-69029058

    So in typical Laura Kuenssberg style she has got 4 Tory interviewees (Grant Shapps, Michael Green, Corinne Stockheath and Sebastian Fox) and 1 Labour
    A joke that never gets old or laboured.
    Well we like it, and if people didn't operate multiple names to execute questionable internet get rich quick schemes, it wouldn't be available to us.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    TimS said:

    📊 Labour lead at 18pts
    Westminster voting intention

    LAB: 43% (+3)
    CON: 25% (+1)
    REF: 10% (-2)
    LDEM: 9% (-2)
    GRN: 7% (-)

    via @OpiniumResearch, 15 May

    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1792100917052891603?s=46

    Reform continues its gentle decline.

    Not all going back to the Tories, though.
    The Elphicke effect?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    FF43 said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Farooq said:

    Rereading that Orwell piece, I'm struck by how starkly miserable he is as a writer. I really don't enjoy reading his stuff. Yes, there're clever and quotable gems in there and the vision is wonderful. But it's all so fucking dour.
    Better to read Heller. You get the cleverness but it's enjoyable too. Reading Orwell is like eating plain celery for lunch, every lunch, from now until the day you die. It's probably doing you some good, but you'll want to take a claw hammer to your own sphenoid within a week.

    The only exception to that, in my opinion, is Down and Out in London and Paris which is quite entertaining in parts. Re Heller, I didn't get beyond page 5 of his most famous book. I'll try again some other time.
    It took me two goes to get past the start of the book. No regrets once I was into it, Catch-22 is one of the funniest things I've read. Not many books make me laugh out loud* but C22 did. I think the only other time that's happened was with a Martin Amis book, perhaps Money?
    YMMV but I really enjoyed Catch-22.

    *the delivery required for that is exceptional - I've read very funny books, e.g. much by Pratchett, but a literal LOL is rare
    I loved Catch 22 when I was younger - I wrote my extended essay on it in CSYS English. You're right, it is outrageously funny. I tried reading it again later in life, though, and couldn't get into it so much. I think there are some books you enjoy when you're young (other examples include On the Road and the Lord of the Rings) that somehow aren't the same if you read them in middle age. On the other hand I have re-read Nineteen Eighty Four several times and it gets better each time. I'd put Great Expectations in that category too.
    Nineteen Eighty Four is good, to be sure, and I have read it a few times. But it's a bit relentless. Orwell skimps on the sugar when trying to make a point and just batters the reader with a blunt object until they get it. It's all a bit Victorian in a way, all didactic and serious.

    I'll admit I've had trouble getting into Dickens and I've never read GE. What recommends it?
    I'm grateful to my English teacher who ditched Great Expectations as our set book after a few chapters saying, "I can't stand this". Which meant I could come back to it as an adult when it would have been killed for me for ever if we had persevered.

    What recommends it is great story telling. It has a very satisfying narrative that runs through the book despite the many deviations. It is a long novel rewarding patience, which is something you develop as you get older.

    A similar experience for me with Heart of Midlothian, which after three false starts I loved. It's a cracking read.
    GE is a great read when you’re young, and a quite different experience to reread when you’re much older.
    ‘Long’ is Bleak House; GE is a short story in comparison.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385

    I love BBC news articles like this. This is on their front page of top articles right now: "why parents are ditching their cars"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84z0md30z3o

    Spoiler: parents are not ditching their cars. A BBC Bristol journalist from BBC Bristol has spoken to a couple of left-wing parents in urban areas of what is now one of the UK's most left-wing cities who now cycle their kids to school.

    It's entirely unrepresentative, it is very much exaggerated and it is absolutely very BBC. Met and preachy to the core.

    The bbc news page is getting like some woke version of Hello Magazine
    Which is fine if that’s how it wants to go, but funded via a license fee.

    The BBC should be competing for its funding not reliant on a license fee extorted from people who simply own a TV and want to watch live broadcasts.

    The criminalisation of people for failure to pay fines, often the poorest in society, for not having a license in this day and age of multi media platforms is a disgrace.

    The BBC seems of offer less and less to my generation. It’s happy to have our money. Less happy to provide or cater for the elder demographic.
This discussion has been closed.