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Raynergate isn’t cutting through – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,159
edited May 12 in General
Raynergate isn’t cutting through – politicalbetting.com

Only 25% of Britons say they are following the Angela Rayner stories 'very' or 'fairly' closely – one of the lowest figures for our tracker of news topicshttps://t.co/AyaHTL0DhC pic.twitter.com/eVcAjYCAH0

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,863
    It is hard to follow Raynergate, especially since James Daly for the Conservatives refused to say just what she was accused of. It was all a long time ago, any tax dodged was minimal, electoral fraud trivial and time-barred, and most people would not think of taking specialist tax advice when they moved.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,863
    Antisemitic false Rothschild quote cut from Liz Truss memoir
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68853672

    We discussed this a couple of days ago when I reported the quote was missing from the Kindle edition. As surmised, the publisher had removed it.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,549

    It is hard to follow Raynergate, especially since James Daly for the Conservatives refused to say just what she was accused of. (Snip)

    Have Labour mentioned exactly what they think Menzies did, since they reported him to the police?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620

    Antisemitic false Rothschild quote cut from Liz Truss memoir
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68853672

    We discussed this a couple of days ago when I reported the quote was missing from the Kindle edition. As surmised, the publisher had removed it.

    Liz Corbynite.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,863
    edited April 20
    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,863
    Pupils mugged on ‘ghost town’ streets created by LTN
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/pupils-mugged-ghost-town-streets-created-by-ltn-says-head/ (£££)

    In an LTN double-whammy, buses can be delayed by more than an hour and there are no potential witnesses deterring crime on empty streets.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620

    It is hard to follow Raynergate, especially since James Daly for the Conservatives refused to say just what she was accused of. (Snip)

    Have Labour mentioned exactly what they think Menzies did, since they reported him to the police?
    Misconduct in public office and potential fraud.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,549

    It is hard to follow Raynergate, especially since James Daly for the Conservatives refused to say just what she was accused of. (Snip)

    Have Labour mentioned exactly what they think Menzies did, since they reported him to the police?
    Misconduct in public office and potential fraud.
    Thanks.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620
    edited April 20

    It is hard to follow Raynergate, especially since James Daly for the Conservatives refused to say just what she was accused of. (Snip)

    Have Labour mentioned exactly what they think Menzies did, since they reported him to the police?
    Misconduct in public office and potential fraud.
    Thanks.
    Also offences under the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,863

    It is hard to follow Raynergate, especially since James Daly for the Conservatives refused to say just what she was accused of. (Snip)

    Have Labour mentioned exactly what they think Menzies did, since they reported him to the police?
    Answered in two TSE posts. One imagines the public will find it easier to understand Menzies, than the largely technical allegations against Rayner which as described in the header are not cutting through.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,627

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    There is the possibility that rise in long term sick is gunuine, rather than skiving. It seems specific to Britain, as a similar phenomenon doesn't seem to be true elsewhere but isn't impossible.

    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/policy/health/64510/is-britain-sicker-than-a-decade-ago
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,549
    I was about to go out for a long run. I stepped out the door, felt the temperature, and decided to wait until after dawn.

    It's quite cold out there...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,061
    edited April 20

    It is hard to follow Raynergate, especially since James Daly for the Conservatives refused to say just what she was accused of. (Snip)

    Have Labour mentioned exactly what they think Menzies did, since they reported him to the police?
    They don't have to.
    His former agent has already provided the details. And has been quoted extensively in the national media.

    Or haven't you been "following closely" ?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,549
    Nigelb said:

    It is hard to follow Raynergate, especially since James Daly for the Conservatives refused to say just what she was accused of. (Snip)

    Have Labour mentioned exactly what they think Menzies did, since they reported him to the police?
    They don't have to.
    His former agent has already provided the details. And has been quoted extensively in the national media.

    Or haven't you been "following closely" ?
    Not massively closely, no. Which was why I asked the question, especially as I think I made an assumption (which was incorrect) in a post yesterday.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,549
    Two very different views on the same story:

    "Russel Bentley, an American who joined russia in fighting Ukraine was beaten to death in the occupied Donetsk. Apparently, someone heard his accent & took him for a spy.

    A useful idiot died idiotically."

    https://twitter.com/olex_scherba/status/1781510644950335831

    and:

    " American war correspondent, Russell Bentley from Texas, USA has sadly passed away in Donetsk.

    A man who dedicated a decade of his life to exposing the crimes of the ukraine to the world. A hero to the Donetsk's People's Republic.

    Rest in peace."

    https://twitter.com/Alex_Oloyede2/status/1781469312005337528
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,354

    Two very different views on the same story:

    "Russel Bentley, an American who joined russia in fighting Ukraine was beaten to death in the occupied Donetsk. Apparently, someone heard his accent & took him for a spy.

    A useful idiot died idiotically."

    https://twitter.com/olex_scherba/status/1781510644950335831

    and:

    " American war correspondent, Russell Bentley from Texas, USA has sadly passed away in Donetsk.

    A man who dedicated a decade of his life to exposing the crimes of the ukraine to the world. A hero to the Donetsk's People's Republic.

    Rest in peace."

    https://twitter.com/Alex_Oloyede2/status/1781469312005337528

    Karma’s a bitch…
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,572
    Foxy said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    There is the possibility that rise in long term sick is gunuine, rather than skiving. It seems specific to Britain, as a similar phenomenon doesn't seem to be true elsewhere but isn't impossible.

    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/policy/health/64510/is-britain-sicker-than-a-decade-ago
    The authors say: "From 2014 to 2015 infant mortality rates increased."

    Here's the graph:



    Neat illustration of facts vs truth, there.

    If people want to argue than Austerity kills babies, fair enough, but they would do well to come up with something better than that. Otherwise it looks like a premise masquerading as a conclusion.

    (A quick scroll through the author's twitter accounts shows, quelle suprise, they are Corbynites.)
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,656
    I see Trump is 5/1 to win.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    It is hard to follow Raynergate, especially since James Daly for the Conservatives refused to say just what she was accused of. (Snip)

    Have Labour mentioned exactly what they think Menzies did, since they reported him to the police?
    Fraud
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    ...

    I see Trump is 5/1 to win.

    Where?

    Last time I looked he was 11/10. (Bet365)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,354

    I see Trump is 5/1 to win.

    The election, his court case or the impending divorce dispute?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,354
    carnforth said:

    Foxy said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    There is the possibility that rise in long term sick is gunuine, rather than skiving. It seems specific to Britain, as a similar phenomenon doesn't seem to be true elsewhere but isn't impossible.

    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/policy/health/64510/is-britain-sicker-than-a-decade-ago
    The authors say: "From 2014 to 2015 infant mortality rates increased."

    Here's the graph:



    Neat illustration of facts vs truth, there.

    If people want to argue than Austerity kills babies, fair enough, but they would do well to come up with something better than that. Otherwise it looks like a premise masquerading as a conclusion.

    (A quick scroll through the author's twitter accounts shows, quelle suprise, they are Corbynites.)
    That's an amazing example.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    edited April 20

    It is hard to follow Raynergate, especially since James Daly for the Conservatives refused to say just what she was accused of. (Snip)

    Have Labour mentioned exactly what they think Menzies did, since they reported him to the police?
    Quite frankly it's none of Labour's business. It looks really, really bad on them after they have quite rightly bellyached about James Daly. Shame on them.

    Mind you, one would have thought the Fylde branch of the Conservative Party would be pretty enraged by Mr Menzies's behaviour in relation to the misuse of Party funds.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    Foxy said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    There is the possibility that rise in long term sick is gunuine, rather than skiving. It seems specific to Britain, as a similar phenomenon doesn't seem to be true elsewhere but isn't impossible.

    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/policy/health/64510/is-britain-sicker-than-a-decade-ago
    Possibly a consequence of intractable economic and social problems (housing, work etc); in combination with 'disability' being the one residual safety net.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    I see Trump is 5/1 to win.

    For a minute you had me and I was wondering what the layer knew about The Donald being jailed.

    Then I remembered it's the World Snooker Championship and Judd Trump is around the 5/1 mark.
    Isn't it a bit early for that kind of hilarity at this time in the morning? I was genuinely excited that the Orange one had finally seen his comeuppance.

    BJO fans please explain.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275

    It is hard to follow Raynergate, especially since James Daly for the Conservatives refused to say just what she was accused of. (Snip)

    Have Labour mentioned exactly what they think Menzies did, since they reported him to the police?
    Quite frankly it's none of Labour's business. It looks really, really bad on them after they have quite rightly bellyached about James Daly. Shame on them.

    Mind you, one would have thought the Fylde branch of the Conservative Party would be pretty enraged by Mr Menzies's behaviour in relation to the misuse of Party funds.
    If Daly hadn’t have gone after Rayner then I doubt they would have reported Menzies . It’s all gearing upto be a very ugly election campaign .
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    ydoethur said:

    I see Trump is 5/1 to win.

    The election, his court case or the impending divorce dispute?
    Apparently the snooker. Hat tip to @DecrepiterJohnL
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,354

    ydoethur said:

    I see Trump is 5/1 to win.

    The election, his court case or the impending divorce dispute?
    Apparently the snooker. Hat tip to @DecrepiterJohnL
    So you were saying it's balls, not about who oh baize the law?
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    I am listening to Taylor Swifts new album. It is quite amazing how her career is evolving. It sounds like the National (recent work) and is entirely credible.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,354
    Bloody 'Sick Note Culture'-I agree- did anyone ask for a sick note when Simon Case was off work for around four months-on full pay?

    https://twitter.com/BarbaraSutton15/status/1781204035233517578

    A good question, even if a bad source.

    Admittedly, four months off by the utter Case probably improved the efficiency of the government.
  • sbjme19sbjme19 Posts: 194
    Tories' case against Rayner not helped by Daly's car crash media appearances...if anyone saw then.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    ydoethur said:

    Bloody 'Sick Note Culture'-I agree- did anyone ask for a sick note when Simon Case was off work for around four months-on full pay?

    https://twitter.com/BarbaraSutton15/status/1781204035233517578

    A good question, even if a bad source.

    Admittedly, four months off by the utter Case probably improved the efficiency of the government.

    Did he ever testify at the Covid enquiry?
  • sbjme19sbjme19 Posts: 194
    Them
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    Scott_xP said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    @JohnJCrace

    Now I see it and I'm really sorry. By having a heart attack I have let my country down. More importantly, I have let Rishi Sunak down

    @tompeck

    If you were going to do a comedy musical about the last fourteen years of Conservative government, what better ending could you hope for than the prime minister giving a big speech out of nowhere, to tell everyone that they’re not really depressed?


    @Parody_PM

    "Some vulnerable people will become destitute, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make"


    There is something irresistible about Sunak as Lord Farqar.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,354
    Irish media (and AFP) now reporting Russian state reports on the war in Ukraine uncritically.

    "Ukraine drone strike kills two in Russia's Belgorod region"

    https://www.rte.ie/news/ukraine/2024/0420/1444643-ukraine-russia/

    Also, from the write-up, you wouldn't know anything at all about Ukraine's targeting of Russian airbases, or long-range radar systems, etc. It creates the impression that Ukraine is deliberating targeting only Russian civilian targets.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,863

    It is hard to follow Raynergate, especially since James Daly for the Conservatives refused to say just what she was accused of. (Snip)

    Have Labour mentioned exactly what they think Menzies did, since they reported him to the police?
    Quite frankly it's none of Labour's business. It looks really, really bad on them after they have quite rightly bellyached about James Daly. Shame on them.

    Mind you, one would have thought the Fylde branch of the Conservative Party would be pretty enraged by Mr Menzies's behaviour in relation to the misuse of Party funds.
    You are right that Labour should have stayed out of it, or not stayed out of it and asked some pointed questions at PMQs, but going to the police seems petty and peevish, as well as unnecessary given the police can read the newspapers.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    sbjme19 said:

    Them

    There's an edit button, just saying; your post of 'Them' had me searching for a deeper meaning ;-)
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,986

    There is something irresistible about Sunak as Lord Farqar.

    Farquaad

    And yes.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653

    ydoethur said:

    I see Trump is 5/1 to win.

    The election, his court case or the impending divorce dispute?
    Apparently the snooker. Hat tip to @DecrepiterJohnL
    I'll think you'll find DJT regularly knocks out 147 breaks and beats world champions. The only reason he doesn't play more is that people get fed up of losing to him.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,627
    carnforth said:

    Foxy said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    There is the possibility that rise in long term sick is gunuine, rather than skiving. It seems specific to Britain, as a similar phenomenon doesn't seem to be true elsewhere but isn't impossible.

    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/policy/health/64510/is-britain-sicker-than-a-decade-ago
    The authors say: "From 2014 to 2015 infant mortality rates increased."

    Here's the graph:



    Neat illustration of facts vs truth, there.

    If people want to argue than Austerity kills babies, fair enough, but they would do well to come up with something better than that. Otherwise it looks like a premise masquerading as a conclusion.

    (A quick scroll through the author's twitter accounts shows, quelle suprise, they are Corbynites.)
    They did cite the specific year 2014-15, not the entire period.

    Also the context is that things are getting worse for specific communities (where large numbers of these claimants are), even when things are improving for other demographics. To quote from the article:

    "In the past decade, life expectancy and infant mortality rates in the UK have alarmed observers. Both had been steadily improving, with some fluctuations, until 2012—when life expectancy improvements stalled before stopping completely. From 2014 to 2015 infant mortality rates increased. When analysed by ethnicity and deprivation, these numbers are even more concerning. Life expectancy has fallen for women living in the 10 per cent most deprived areas. Regional inequalities have also widened. Those living in the northeast of England now have an average life expectancy five years lower than people in London."

    Prof Marmot has written extensively on these issues for decades, and wrote both the 2010 public health report for the Brown government and its 10 year follow up. To dismiss him as Corbynite is just lazy. If you want to tackle disability and its health effects we could do with updating and implementing his 2010 plan.

    https://www.local.gov.uk/marmot-review-report-fair-society-healthy-lives
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    ...
    darkage said:

    Foxy said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    There is the possibility that rise in long term sick is gunuine, rather than skiving. It seems specific to Britain, as a similar phenomenon doesn't seem to be true elsewhere but isn't impossible.

    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/policy/health/64510/is-britain-sicker-than-a-decade-ago
    Possibly a consequence of intractable economic and social problems (housing, work etc); in combination with 'disability' being the one residual safety net.
    There may well be abuse of the system, on the other hand post COVID, there may be minimal abuse.

    Sunak clearly doesn't understand or like poor people. I am reminded of his teenage interview where he implied he hadn't really met any "working class" people.

    In the early days of his premiership Sunak came across as "decent" after the excesses of Johnson and Truss. These days he comes across as vain, entitled, petty and nasty.

    His scorn isn't merely for scroungers. Each week one can tell in his voice the utter contempt he has for working class social-climber made good, Starmer. Same goes for Rayner, a peasant in Rishi's world who clearly doesn't know her place.

    Sunak clearly despises the jeering mob opposite, then again he must detest a good bunch of the oiks behind him.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,354

    ydoethur said:

    Bloody 'Sick Note Culture'-I agree- did anyone ask for a sick note when Simon Case was off work for around four months-on full pay?

    https://twitter.com/BarbaraSutton15/status/1781204035233517578

    A good question, even if a bad source.

    Admittedly, four months off by the utter Case probably improved the efficiency of the government.

    Did he ever testify at the Covid enquiry?
    I gather he had an urgent works meeting an hour before and therefore was unable to stand, er, take the stand.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,214

    ydoethur said:

    Bloody 'Sick Note Culture'-I agree- did anyone ask for a sick note when Simon Case was off work for around four months-on full pay?

    https://twitter.com/BarbaraSutton15/status/1781204035233517578

    A good question, even if a bad source.

    Admittedly, four months off by the utter Case probably improved the efficiency of the government.

    Did he ever testify at the Covid enquiry?
    May 24th, apparently;

    https://www.civilserviceworld.com/professions/article/simon-cases-covid-inquiry-appearance-date-confirmed#:~:text=Simon Case will give evidence,May, it has been confirmed.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,895
    sbjme19 said:

    Tories' case against Rayner not helped by Daly's car crash media appearances...if anyone saw then.

    Yes. Why isn't Raynergate cutting through? Because even the complainant can't say what he has complained about. Which feels to me like he signed a letter written by the whips who picked another bluff-sounding northerner to deliver it to the bizzies. Of course he can't say what the complaint is - he hasn't made one and didn't ask what the letter he signed was about.

    Do have to laugh. "The police must investigate" was bad enough when all they were doing was laying themselves open to everyone reopening all heir financial shenanigans. And now we find out about the latest serious scandal - the party knew about it whilst whipping up Raynergate and did nothing, And of course think there should be no police investigation.

    Immoral. Hypocritical. Openly Corrupt. Vote Conservative.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653

    25% is incredibly high to be following Raynergate closely - I'm a politics nerd and I can't be bothered with it.

    Aren't political nerds likely to be over-represented in the 6500 adults YouGov surveyed for this poll? It's a self selected pool, I assume?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    ydoethur said:

    Bloody 'Sick Note Culture'-I agree- did anyone ask for a sick note when Simon Case was off work for around four months-on full pay?

    https://twitter.com/BarbaraSutton15/status/1781204035233517578

    A good question, even if a bad source.

    Admittedly, four months off by the utter Case probably improved the efficiency of the government.

    I don't think Sunak means that class of sick-note scrounger. I suspect Simon Case is of a status justifying a helping hand when times are hard. Cider-swilling, cigarette smoking Sky TV watchers on the other hand...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653

    ydoethur said:

    Bloody 'Sick Note Culture'-I agree- did anyone ask for a sick note when Simon Case was off work for around four months-on full pay?

    https://twitter.com/BarbaraSutton15/status/1781204035233517578

    A good question, even if a bad source.

    Admittedly, four months off by the utter Case probably improved the efficiency of the government.

    Did he ever testify at the Covid enquiry?
    May 24th, apparently;

    https://www.civilserviceworld.com/professions/article/simon-cases-covid-inquiry-appearance-date-confirmed#:~:text=Simon Case will give evidence,May, it has been confirmed.
    Let's see shall we?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    The vast majority of people don’t want to survive on benefits . But this is the latest round of othering which the Tories do to deflect from the state of the country . Indeed Sunaks attack is likely to lead to an increase in mental health issues , anxiety and stress in those suffering is likely to increase . Helping people back into work isn’t a problem , using a stick to beat them , threatening them with destitution is .

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,627
    edited April 20

    25% is incredibly high to be following Raynergate closely - I'm a politics nerd and I can't be bothered with it.

    Aren't political nerds likely to be over-represented in the 6500 adults YouGov surveyed for this poll? It's a self selected pool, I assume?
    It's their daily 3 question poll that goes to all who subscribe, I think.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,895
    edited April 20
    nico679 said:

    The vast majority of people don’t want to survive on benefits . But this is the latest round of othering which the Tories do to deflect from the state of the country . Indeed Sunaks attack is likely to lead to an increase in mental health issues , anxiety and stress in those suffering is likely to increase . Helping people back into work isn’t a problem , using a stick to beat them , threatening them with destitution is .

    Remember that the tipping point to vote Tory is now 70. Which means the 6 remaining voters read - and believe - the Daily Express. So of course they need to go after these scroungers. Weaponised stupidity and ignorance doesn't get any more ignorant than Express readers.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    Foxy said:

    25% is incredibly high to be following Raynergate closely - I'm a politics nerd and I can't be bothered with it.

    Aren't political nerds likely to be over-represented in the 6500 adults YouGov surveyed for this poll? It's a self selected pool, I assume?
    It's their daily 3 question poll that goes to all who subscribe, I think.
    Fair enough but I am suggesting that political nerds are much more likely to subscribe than normal people like TSE.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984

    nico679 said:

    The vast majority of people don’t want to survive on benefits . But this is the latest round of othering which the Tories do to deflect from the state of the country . Indeed Sunaks attack is likely to lead to an increase in mental health issues , anxiety and stress in those suffering is likely to increase . Helping people back into work isn’t a problem , using a stick to beat them , threatening them with destitution is .

    Remember that the tipping point to vote Tory is now 70. Which means the 6 remaining voters read - and believe - the Daily Express. So of course they need to go after these scroungers. Weaponised stupidity and ignorance doesn't get any more ignorant that Express readers.
    I thought that yesterday. Rishi’s speech will have gone down very well with pensioners who think the youth (under 60s) are soft lazy scroungers.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,362
    Scott_xP said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    @JohnJCrace

    Now I see it and I'm really sorry. By having a heart attack I have let my country down. More importantly, I have let Rishi Sunak down

    @tompeck

    If you were going to do a comedy musical about the last fourteen years of Conservative government, what better ending could you hope for than the prime minister giving a big speech out of nowhere, to tell everyone that they’re not really depressed?


    @Parody_PM

    "Some vulnerable people will become destitute, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make"


    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1781346078190686276?s=61
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 993

    Foxy said:

    25% is incredibly high to be following Raynergate closely - I'm a politics nerd and I can't be bothered with it.

    Aren't political nerds likely to be over-represented in the 6500 adults YouGov surveyed for this poll? It's a self selected pool, I assume?
    It's their daily 3 question poll that goes to all who subscribe, I think.
    Fair enough but I am suggesting that political nerds are much more likely to subscribe than normal people like TSE.
    🤣!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    @JohnJCrace

    Now I see it and I'm really sorry. By having a heart attack I have let my country down. More importantly, I have let Rishi Sunak down

    @tompeck

    If you were going to do a comedy musical about the last fourteen years of Conservative government, what better ending could you hope for than the prime minister giving a big speech out of nowhere, to tell everyone that they’re not really depressed?


    @Parody_PM

    "Some vulnerable people will become destitute, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make"


    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1781346078190686276?s=61
    What point are you trying to make?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,214

    ...

    darkage said:

    Foxy said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    There is the possibility that rise in long term sick is gunuine, rather than skiving. It seems specific to Britain, as a similar phenomenon doesn't seem to be true elsewhere but isn't impossible.

    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/policy/health/64510/is-britain-sicker-than-a-decade-ago
    Possibly a consequence of intractable economic and social problems (housing, work etc); in combination with 'disability' being the one residual safety net.
    There may well be abuse of the system, on the other hand post COVID, there may be minimal abuse.

    Sunak clearly doesn't understand or like poor people. I am reminded of his teenage interview where he implied he hadn't really met any "working class" people.

    In the early days of his premiership Sunak came across as "decent" after the excesses of Johnson and Truss. These days he comes across as vain, entitled, petty and nasty.

    His scorn isn't merely for scroungers. Each week one can tell in his voice the utter contempt he has for working class social-climber made good, Starmer. Same goes for Rayner, a peasant in Rishi's world who clearly doesn't know her place.

    Sunak clearly despises the jeering mob opposite, then again he must detest a good bunch of the oiks behind him.
    Two reasonably foreseeable problems with Sunak.

    First is that he's our first truly meritocratic Prime Minister (in the bad sense). Even Maggie had a bit of understanding of the duty of the rich to do reasonably by the poor. Methodism will do that to a gal.

    Second is the unimaginability of the size of Sunak's pile of dosh. Even people who are very well off (normal bankers, say) are poor compared to the Sunaks. Goodness only knows what he makes of people making a living on a normal public sector professional salary. Probably thinks it serves them right for not doing maths and going to work for a hedge fund.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,061
    edited April 20
    RIP philosopher Daniel Dennett.

    It would have been interesting to get his continuing commentary on AI.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,895

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    @JohnJCrace

    Now I see it and I'm really sorry. By having a heart attack I have let my country down. More importantly, I have let Rishi Sunak down

    @tompeck

    If you were going to do a comedy musical about the last fourteen years of Conservative government, what better ending could you hope for than the prime minister giving a big speech out of nowhere, to tell everyone that they’re not really depressed?


    @Parody_PM

    "Some vulnerable people will become destitute, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make"


    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1781346078190686276?s=61
    What point are you trying to make?
    Lets go over to the Daily Express and find out:

    "Bloody scroungers. If only the vast majority of people in this country weren't woke lefties and accepted that every disabled person is a liar then the Tories would be on for a majority of 704."
  • CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 480
    Raynergate might not be cutting through, but I am sensing restlessness in the remainer camp. There is a tacit contract that rejoiners (who are 60% of the electorate) will vote tory with the prospect of initiating a long term process towards SM an eventually rejoining. But Starmer basically might as well be Farage with good PR when it comes to the EU. If the GE comes and goes and the mask doesn't drop on the EU there will be FURY. My guess is that this very fluid and illoyal electorate will find new pastures. Just to illustrate yougov found that only 12% strongly oppose SM.

    Omnisis/WeThink10-11.4.24Rejoin/Stay Out62/38

    Brexiteerism is a dying movement married to the declining boomer segment. Rejoin enjoud huge majorities in the under 60 year olds. Labour is making a huge error if it remains so rigid on the eu. Everybody i talk to is betting that this brexit kabuki theater from labour is just electoral strategy and will fall away.... it better or labour support will drop like a rock in government.
  • CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 480

    Raynergate might not be cutting through, but I am sensing restlessness in the remainer camp. There is a tacit contract that rejoiners (who are 60% of the electorate) will vote tory with the prospect of initiating a long term process towards SM an eventually rejoining. But Starmer basically might as well be Farage with good PR when it comes to the EU. If the GE comes and goes and the mask doesn't drop on the EU there will be FURY. My guess is that this very fluid and illoyal electorate will find new pastures. Just to illustrate yougov found that only 12% strongly oppose SM.

    Omnisis/WeThink10-11.4.24Rejoin/Stay Out62/38

    Brexiteerism is a dying movement married to the declining boomer segment. Rejoin enjoud huge majorities in the under 60 year olds. Labour is making a huge error if it remains so rigid on the eu. Everybody i talk to is betting that this brexit kabuki theater from labour is just electoral strategy and will fall away.... it better or labour support will drop like a rock in government.

    I wrote wrong the 60% will vote labour with the prospect of labour mellowing on the eu. Is there a hidden editing function on posted comments?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    ...
    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    @JohnJCrace

    Now I see it and I'm really sorry. By having a heart attack I have let my country down. More importantly, I have let Rishi Sunak down

    @tompeck

    If you were going to do a comedy musical about the last fourteen years of Conservative government, what better ending could you hope for than the prime minister giving a big speech out of nowhere, to tell everyone that they’re not really depressed?


    @Parody_PM

    "Some vulnerable people will become destitute, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make"


    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1781346078190686276?s=61
    There will always be abusers of any system where "free" money is available. Sunak is not targeting this chap, "it's the lot of them, they're all as bad as each other, when I'm short of a bob or two, I don't rely on the state, I ask my wife for a sub ".
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    edited April 20

    Raynergate might not be cutting through, but I am sensing restlessness in the remainer camp. There is a tacit contract that rejoiners (who are 60% of the electorate) will vote tory with the prospect of initiating a long term process towards SM an eventually rejoining. But Starmer basically might as well be Farage with good PR when it comes to the EU. If the GE comes and goes and the mask doesn't drop on the EU there will be FURY. My guess is that this very fluid and illoyal electorate will find new pastures. Just to illustrate yougov found that only 12% strongly oppose SM.

    Omnisis/WeThink10-11.4.24Rejoin/Stay Out62/38

    Brexiteerism is a dying movement married to the declining boomer segment. Rejoin enjoud huge majorities in the under 60 year olds. Labour is making a huge error if it remains so rigid on the eu. Everybody i talk to is betting that this brexit kabuki theater from labour is just electoral strategy and will fall away.... it better or labour support will drop like a rock in government.

    I wrote wrong the 60% will vote labour with the prospect of labour mellowing on the eu. Is there a hidden editing function on posted comments?
    It’s normally on that little wheel to the right on your post . Although it seems to be time limited as I tried to edit my earlier post and it didn’t work .
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,627

    Raynergate might not be cutting through, but I am sensing restlessness in the remainer camp. There is a tacit contract that rejoiners (who are 60% of the electorate) will vote tory with the prospect of initiating a long term process towards SM an eventually rejoining. But Starmer basically might as well be Farage with good PR when it comes to the EU. If the GE comes and goes and the mask doesn't drop on the EU there will be FURY. My guess is that this very fluid and illoyal electorate will find new pastures. Just to illustrate yougov found that only 12% strongly oppose SM.

    Omnisis/WeThink10-11.4.24Rejoin/Stay Out62/38

    Brexiteerism is a dying movement married to the declining boomer segment. Rejoin enjoud huge majorities in the under 60 year olds. Labour is making a huge error if it remains so rigid on the eu. Everybody i talk to is betting that this brexit kabuki theater from labour is just electoral strategy and will fall away.... it better or labour support will drop like a rock in government.

    I wrote wrong the 60% will vote labour with the prospect of labour mellowing on the eu. Is there a hidden editing function on posted comments?
    Yes, you get 6 minutes to edit by clicking on the post them the little cogwheel.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,354
    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    @JohnJCrace

    Now I see it and I'm really sorry. By having a heart attack I have let my country down. More importantly, I have let Rishi Sunak down

    @tompeck

    If you were going to do a comedy musical about the last fourteen years of Conservative government, what better ending could you hope for than the prime minister giving a big speech out of nowhere, to tell everyone that they’re not really depressed?


    @Parody_PM

    "Some vulnerable people will become destitute, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make"


    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1781346078190686276?s=61
    You need to have sleep apnea. You need a diagnosis of same. You need DWP to then grant you the benefits on that basis.

    Has anyone tried claiming that and actually had it paid to them?

    Given the people who are disabled and have their applications refused I would be extremely surprised if anyone ever received a penny for sleep apnea - not least because it can be treated with CPAP.

    But, of course, a tiktoker said it, so it must be true.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    ...

    darkage said:

    Foxy said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    There is the possibility that rise in long term sick is gunuine, rather than skiving. It seems specific to Britain, as a similar phenomenon doesn't seem to be true elsewhere but isn't impossible.

    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/policy/health/64510/is-britain-sicker-than-a-decade-ago
    Possibly a consequence of intractable economic and social problems (housing, work etc); in combination with 'disability' being the one residual safety net.
    There may well be abuse of the system, on the other hand post COVID, there may be minimal abuse.

    Sunak clearly doesn't understand or like poor people. I am reminded of his teenage interview where he implied he hadn't really met any "working class" people.

    In the early days of his premiership Sunak came across as "decent" after the excesses of Johnson and Truss. These days he comes across as vain, entitled, petty and nasty.

    His scorn isn't merely for scroungers. Each week one can tell in his voice the utter contempt he has for working class social-climber made good, Starmer. Same goes for Rayner, a peasant in Rishi's world who clearly doesn't know her place.

    Sunak clearly despises the jeering mob opposite, then again he must detest a good bunch of the oiks behind him.
    Two reasonably foreseeable problems with Sunak.

    First is that he's our first truly meritocratic Prime Minister (in the bad sense). Even Maggie had a bit of understanding of the duty of the rich to do reasonably by the poor. Methodism will do that to a gal.

    Second is the unimaginability of the size of Sunak's pile of dosh. Even people who are very well off (normal bankers, say) are poor compared to the Sunaks. Goodness only knows what he makes of people making a living on a normal public sector professional salary. Probably thinks it serves them right for not doing maths and going to work for a hedge fund.
    If they can't do maths and work for a hedge fund, surely everyone has it in them to marry well.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,627

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    @JohnJCrace

    Now I see it and I'm really sorry. By having a heart attack I have let my country down. More importantly, I have let Rishi Sunak down

    @tompeck

    If you were going to do a comedy musical about the last fourteen years of Conservative government, what better ending could you hope for than the prime minister giving a big speech out of nowhere, to tell everyone that they’re not really depressed?


    @Parody_PM

    "Some vulnerable people will become destitute, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make"


    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1781346078190686276?s=61
    You need to have sleep apnea. You need a diagnosis of same. You need DWP to then grant you the benefits on that basis.

    Has anyone tried claiming that and actually had it paid to them?

    Given the people who are disabled and have their applications refused I would be extremely surprised if anyone ever received a penny for sleep apnea - not least because it can be treated with CPAP.

    But, of course, a tiktoker said it, so it must be true.
    OSA is quite common. We have 10 000 diagnosed in a population of 1050000 in Leics, and it is probably under recognised. It can be an isolated thing, but is often associated with obesity, diabetes and cardiovascular problems.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,362

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    @JohnJCrace

    Now I see it and I'm really sorry. By having a heart attack I have let my country down. More importantly, I have let Rishi Sunak down

    @tompeck

    If you were going to do a comedy musical about the last fourteen years of Conservative government, what better ending could you hope for than the prime minister giving a big speech out of nowhere, to tell everyone that they’re not really depressed?


    @Parody_PM

    "Some vulnerable people will become destitute, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make"


    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1781346078190686276?s=61
    What point are you trying to make?
    ‘Trying’ 😂
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,576
    I know it’s a generally unpopular view on here, but sticking with Liz Truss would have been better than what Sunak is doing at the moment.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,863
    Labour blames 'shoplifters' charter' for surge in retail crime
    https://news.sky.com/story/labour-blames-shoplifters-charter-for-surge-in-retail-crime-13118957

    Labour chases the law & order vote!
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,812
    Sandpit said:

    I know it’s a generally unpopular view on here, but sticking with Liz Truss would have been better than what Sunak is doing at the moment.

    She may have been polling similarly ( I suspect 15-20 rather then 20-25), but household and government finances would have been much worse off.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,354

    ...

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    @JohnJCrace

    Now I see it and I'm really sorry. By having a heart attack I have let my country down. More importantly, I have let Rishi Sunak down

    @tompeck

    If you were going to do a comedy musical about the last fourteen years of Conservative government, what better ending could you hope for than the prime minister giving a big speech out of nowhere, to tell everyone that they’re not really depressed?


    @Parody_PM

    "Some vulnerable people will become destitute, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make"


    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1781346078190686276?s=61
    There will always be abusers of any system where "free" money is available. Sunak is not targeting this chap, "it's the lot of them, they're all as bad as each other, when I'm short of a bob or two, I don't rely on the state, I ask my wife for a sub ".
    The guy in the video doesn't even say that he claims this money. He just says to trust him, that it's "factual", that you can phone the DWP (with your sleep apnea diagnosis from a doctor, lol) and then they will pay it. Good luck with that.

    The video is fraudulent.

    People need to be a bit more critical of the bollocks they read and watch online.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,362
    edited April 20

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    @JohnJCrace

    Now I see it and I'm really sorry. By having a heart attack I have let my country down. More importantly, I have let Rishi Sunak down

    @tompeck

    If you were going to do a comedy musical about the last fourteen years of Conservative government, what better ending could you hope for than the prime minister giving a big speech out of nowhere, to tell everyone that they’re not really depressed?


    @Parody_PM

    "Some vulnerable people will become destitute, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make"


    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1781346078190686276?s=61
    You need to have sleep apnea. You need a diagnosis of same. You need DWP to then grant you the benefits on that basis.

    Has anyone tried claiming that and actually had it paid to them?

    Given the people who are disabled and have their applications refused I would be extremely surprised if anyone ever received a penny for sleep apnea - not least because it can be treated with CPAP.

    But, of course, a tiktoker said it, so it must be true.
    Yet people are happy to take the word of people on twitter hitting on the govt over this somewhat benign announcement, once you look at what was said.

    After all is that any more or less facile than the terminally unfunny John Crace wilfully misrepresenting, ‘ Now I see it and I'm really sorry. By having a heart attack I have let my country down. More importantly, I have let Rishi Sunak down’.

    Nothing will happen. Nothing will change. It’s just froth for the election.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,627
    Sandpit said:

    I know it’s a generally unpopular view on here, but sticking with Liz Truss would have been better than what Sunak is doing at the moment.

    That seems to assume that Truss's popularity had bottomed out when she was deposed. Quite possibly her plunge would have continued. It took 18 months for Sunaks popularity to sink quite so low.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    This is my poll of fellow Remainer friends . All want a much closer EU relationship , none want another referendum at this point , saying it’s too early and should be left to future generations.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    ...

    darkage said:

    Foxy said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    There is the possibility that rise in long term sick is gunuine, rather than skiving. It seems specific to Britain, as a similar phenomenon doesn't seem to be true elsewhere but isn't impossible.

    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/policy/health/64510/is-britain-sicker-than-a-decade-ago
    Possibly a consequence of intractable economic and social problems (housing, work etc); in combination with 'disability' being the one residual safety net.
    There may well be abuse of the system, on the other hand post COVID, there may be minimal abuse.

    Sunak clearly doesn't understand or like poor people. I am reminded of his teenage interview where he implied he hadn't really met any "working class" people.

    In the early days of his premiership Sunak came across as "decent" after the excesses of Johnson and Truss. These days he comes across as vain, entitled, petty and nasty.

    His scorn isn't merely for scroungers. Each week one can tell in his voice the utter contempt he has for working class social-climber made good, Starmer. Same goes for Rayner, a peasant in Rishi's world who clearly doesn't know her place.

    Sunak clearly despises the jeering mob opposite, then again he must detest a good bunch of the oiks behind him.
    Two reasonably foreseeable problems with Sunak.

    First is that he's our first truly meritocratic Prime Minister (in the bad sense). Even Maggie had a bit of understanding of the duty of the rich to do reasonably by the poor. Methodism will do that to a gal.

    Second is the unimaginability of the size of Sunak's pile of dosh. Even people who are very well off (normal bankers, say) are poor compared to the Sunaks. Goodness only knows what he makes of people making a living on a normal public sector professional salary. Probably thinks it serves them right for not doing maths and going to work for a hedge fund.
    I am not sure Sunak is worthy of comparison to the genuinely meritocratic Thatcher, although both had a shopkeeper parent and married well.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,362

    ...

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    @JohnJCrace

    Now I see it and I'm really sorry. By having a heart attack I have let my country down. More importantly, I have let Rishi Sunak down

    @tompeck

    If you were going to do a comedy musical about the last fourteen years of Conservative government, what better ending could you hope for than the prime minister giving a big speech out of nowhere, to tell everyone that they’re not really depressed?


    @Parody_PM

    "Some vulnerable people will become destitute, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make"


    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1781346078190686276?s=61
    There will always be abusers of any system where "free" money is available. Sunak is not targeting this chap, "it's the lot of them, they're all as bad as each other, when I'm short of a bob or two, I don't rely on the state, I ask my wife for a sub ".
    I’m not sure he is going to do anything, only be seen to, and his speech was quite benign. I suspect this is just cheap electioneering. Nothing more nothing less.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,212

    ...

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    @JohnJCrace

    Now I see it and I'm really sorry. By having a heart attack I have let my country down. More importantly, I have let Rishi Sunak down

    @tompeck

    If you were going to do a comedy musical about the last fourteen years of Conservative government, what better ending could you hope for than the prime minister giving a big speech out of nowhere, to tell everyone that they’re not really depressed?


    @Parody_PM

    "Some vulnerable people will become destitute, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make"


    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1781346078190686276?s=61
    There will always be abusers of any system where "free" money is available. Sunak is not targeting this chap, "it's the lot of them, they're all as bad as each other, when I'm short of a bob or two, I don't rely on the state, I ask my wife for a sub ".
    The guy in the video doesn't even say that he claims this money. He just says to trust him, that it's "factual", that you can phone the DWP (with your sleep apnea diagnosis from a doctor, lol) and then they will pay it. Good luck with that.

    The video is fraudulent.

    People need to be a bit more critical of the bollocks they read and watch online.
    Does anyone have some actual numbers on the fraud rates for various benefits?

    Does anyone have some actual data on the breakdown of the conditions for which people are off sick?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,354
    edited April 20
    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    @JohnJCrace

    Now I see it and I'm really sorry. By having a heart attack I have let my country down. More importantly, I have let Rishi Sunak down

    @tompeck

    If you were going to do a comedy musical about the last fourteen years of Conservative government, what better ending could you hope for than the prime minister giving a big speech out of nowhere, to tell everyone that they’re not really depressed?


    @Parody_PM

    "Some vulnerable people will become destitute, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make"


    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1781346078190686276?s=61
    You need to have sleep apnea. You need a diagnosis of same. You need DWP to then grant you the benefits on that basis.

    Has anyone tried claiming that and actually had it paid to them?

    Given the people who are disabled and have their applications refused I would be extremely surprised if anyone ever received a penny for sleep apnea - not least because it can be treated with CPAP.

    But, of course, a tiktoker said it, so it must be true.
    OSA is quite common. We have 10 000 diagnosed in a population of 1050000 in Leics, and it is probably under recognised. It can be an isolated thing, but is often associated with obesity, diabetes and cardiovascular problems.
    The state's financial problems are not caused by people claiming disability payments for it though.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814
    edited April 20

    ...

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    @JohnJCrace

    Now I see it and I'm really sorry. By having a heart attack I have let my country down. More importantly, I have let Rishi Sunak down

    @tompeck

    If you were going to do a comedy musical about the last fourteen years of Conservative government, what better ending could you hope for than the prime minister giving a big speech out of nowhere, to tell everyone that they’re not really depressed?


    @Parody_PM

    "Some vulnerable people will become destitute, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make"


    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1781346078190686276?s=61
    There will always be abusers of any system where "free" money is available. Sunak is not targeting this chap, "it's the lot of them, they're all as bad as each other, when I'm short of a bob or two, I don't rely on the state, I ask my wife for a sub ".
    The guy in the video doesn't even say that he claims this money. He just says to trust him, that it's "factual", that you can phone the DWP (with your sleep apnea diagnosis from a doctor, lol) and then they will pay it. Good luck with that.

    The video is fraudulent.

    People need to be a bit more critical of the bollocks they read and watch online.
    Does anyone have some actual numbers on the fraud rates for various benefits?

    Does anyone have some actual data on the breakdown of the conditions for which people are off sick?
    The thing that puzzles me is whether the Tory core demographic even know what Tiktok is.

    I think someone's taking the piss.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,061

    Raynergate might not be cutting through, but I am sensing restlessness in the remainer camp. There is a tacit contract that rejoiners (who are 60% of the electorate) will vote tory with the prospect of initiating a long term process towards SM an eventually rejoining. But Starmer basically might as well be Farage with good PR when it comes to the EU. If the GE comes and goes and the mask doesn't drop on the EU there will be FURY. My guess is that this very fluid and illoyal electorate will find new pastures. Just to illustrate yougov found that only 12% strongly oppose SM.

    Omnisis/WeThink10-11.4.24Rejoin/Stay Out62/38

    Brexiteerism is a dying movement married to the declining boomer segment. Rejoin enjoud huge majorities in the under 60 year olds. Labour is making a huge error if it remains so rigid on the eu. Everybody i talk to is betting that this brexit kabuki theater from labour is just electoral strategy and will fall away.... it better or labour support will drop like a rock in government.

    I don't think it's quite as simple as that, but it does point to a significant, just possible very large opportunity for the LibDems in the next Parliament.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    @JohnJCrace

    Now I see it and I'm really sorry. By having a heart attack I have let my country down. More importantly, I have let Rishi Sunak down

    @tompeck

    If you were going to do a comedy musical about the last fourteen years of Conservative government, what better ending could you hope for than the prime minister giving a big speech out of nowhere, to tell everyone that they’re not really depressed?


    @Parody_PM

    "Some vulnerable people will become destitute, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make"


    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1781346078190686276?s=61
    You need to have sleep apnea. You need a diagnosis of same. You need DWP to then grant you the benefits on that basis.

    Has anyone tried claiming that and actually had it paid to them?

    Given the people who are disabled and have their applications refused I would be extremely surprised if anyone ever received a penny for sleep apnea - not least because it can be treated with CPAP.

    But, of course, a tiktoker said it, so it must be true.
    Yet people are happy to take the word of people on twitter hitting on the govt over this somewhat benign announcement, once you look at what was said.

    After all is that any more or less facile than the terminally unfunny John Crace wilfully misrepresenting, ‘ Now I see it and I'm really sorry. By having a heart attack I have let my country down. More importantly, I have let Rishi Sunak down’.

    Nothing will happen. Nothing will change. It’s just froth for the election.
    Your regular defence of this Conservative Government is very unusual for a self confessed lifelong Labour voter.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,354
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    @JohnJCrace

    Now I see it and I'm really sorry. By having a heart attack I have let my country down. More importantly, I have let Rishi Sunak down

    @tompeck

    If you were going to do a comedy musical about the last fourteen years of Conservative government, what better ending could you hope for than the prime minister giving a big speech out of nowhere, to tell everyone that they’re not really depressed?


    @Parody_PM

    "Some vulnerable people will become destitute, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make"


    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1781346078190686276?s=61
    You need to have sleep apnea. You need a diagnosis of same. You need DWP to then grant you the benefits on that basis.

    Has anyone tried claiming that and actually had it paid to them?

    Given the people who are disabled and have their applications refused I would be extremely surprised if anyone ever received a penny for sleep apnea - not least because it can be treated with CPAP.

    But, of course, a tiktoker said it, so it must be true.
    Yet people are happy to take the word of people on twitter hitting on the govt over this somewhat benign announcement, once you look at what was said.

    Nothing will happen. Nothing will change. It’s just froth for the election.
    That doesn't give you a pass for spreading complete nonsense. It's embarrassing. Your should be embarrassed.

    Have you no self-respect?

    It's this sort of crap that helps politicians like get away with rubbish like pretending the state finances can be fixed by cutting down on welfare fraud.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,362

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    @JohnJCrace

    Now I see it and I'm really sorry. By having a heart attack I have let my country down. More importantly, I have let Rishi Sunak down

    @tompeck

    If you were going to do a comedy musical about the last fourteen years of Conservative government, what better ending could you hope for than the prime minister giving a big speech out of nowhere, to tell everyone that they’re not really depressed?


    @Parody_PM

    "Some vulnerable people will become destitute, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make"


    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1781346078190686276?s=61
    You need to have sleep apnea. You need a diagnosis of same. You need DWP to then grant you the benefits on that basis.

    Has anyone tried claiming that and actually had it paid to them?

    Given the people who are disabled and have their applications refused I would be extremely surprised if anyone ever received a penny for sleep apnea - not least because it can be treated with CPAP.

    But, of course, a tiktoker said it, so it must be true.
    OSA is quite common. We have 10 000 diagnosed in a population of 1050000 in Leics, and it is probably under recognised. It can be an isolated thing, but is often associated with obesity, diabetes and cardiovascular problems.
    The states financial problems are not caused by people claiming disability payments for it though.
    Great clarification of something that no one has ever claimed anyway.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    @JohnJCrace

    Now I see it and I'm really sorry. By having a heart attack I have let my country down. More importantly, I have let Rishi Sunak down

    @tompeck

    If you were going to do a comedy musical about the last fourteen years of Conservative government, what better ending could you hope for than the prime minister giving a big speech out of nowhere, to tell everyone that they’re not really depressed?


    @Parody_PM

    "Some vulnerable people will become destitute, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make"


    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1781346078190686276?s=61
    You need to have sleep apnea. You need a diagnosis of same. You need DWP to then grant you the benefits on that basis.

    Has anyone tried claiming that and actually had it paid to them?

    Given the people who are disabled and have their applications refused I would be extremely surprised if anyone ever received a penny for sleep apnea - not least because it can be treated with CPAP.

    But, of course, a tiktoker said it, so it must be true.
    Yet people are happy to take the word of people on twitter hitting on the govt over this somewhat benign announcement, once you look at what was said.

    After all is that any more or less facile than the terminally unfunny John Crace wilfully misrepresenting, ‘ Now I see it and I'm really sorry. By having a heart attack I have let my country down. More importantly, I have let Rishi Sunak down’.

    Nothing will happen. Nothing will change. It’s just froth for the election.
    Replacing real doctors with contractors without qualifications is benign?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,214
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    I know it’s a generally unpopular view on here, but sticking with Liz Truss would have been better than what Sunak is doing at the moment.

    That seems to assume that Truss's popularity had bottomed out when she was deposed. Quite possibly her plunge would have continued. It took 18 months for Sunaks popularity to sink quite so low.
    Truss managed two major blow-ups in her time in office; the mini budget and the fracking vote. We don't know if disasters like that would have kept happening, but it seems more likely than not.

    Character isn't always destiny, but it can be a decent pointer. And Liz Truss was just too flaky, too impatient, too incapable of getting consent first, to be an effective PM.

    Sunak is also bad, but in slow motion. And not humble enough to realise that his allocated role was to stem the worst of the bleeding and then get the hell out in May 2023.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814
    Nigelb said:

    Raynergate might not be cutting through, but I am sensing restlessness in the remainer camp. There is a tacit contract that rejoiners (who are 60% of the electorate) will vote tory with the prospect of initiating a long term process towards SM an eventually rejoining. But Starmer basically might as well be Farage with good PR when it comes to the EU. If the GE comes and goes and the mask doesn't drop on the EU there will be FURY. My guess is that this very fluid and illoyal electorate will find new pastures. Just to illustrate yougov found that only 12% strongly oppose SM.

    Omnisis/WeThink10-11.4.24Rejoin/Stay Out62/38

    Brexiteerism is a dying movement married to the declining boomer segment. Rejoin enjoud huge majorities in the under 60 year olds. Labour is making a huge error if it remains so rigid on the eu. Everybody i talk to is betting that this brexit kabuki theater from labour is just electoral strategy and will fall away.... it better or labour support will drop like a rock in government.

    I don't think it's quite as simple as that, but it does point to a significant, just possible very large opportunity for the LibDems in the next Parliament.
    And SNP, given the Scottish vote for remain. Will be interesting to see if Slab say a word on the matter.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,362

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    @JohnJCrace

    Now I see it and I'm really sorry. By having a heart attack I have let my country down. More importantly, I have let Rishi Sunak down

    @tompeck

    If you were going to do a comedy musical about the last fourteen years of Conservative government, what better ending could you hope for than the prime minister giving a big speech out of nowhere, to tell everyone that they’re not really depressed?


    @Parody_PM

    "Some vulnerable people will become destitute, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make"


    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1781346078190686276?s=61
    You need to have sleep apnea. You need a diagnosis of same. You need DWP to then grant you the benefits on that basis.

    Has anyone tried claiming that and actually had it paid to them?

    Given the people who are disabled and have their applications refused I would be extremely surprised if anyone ever received a penny for sleep apnea - not least because it can be treated with CPAP.

    But, of course, a tiktoker said it, so it must be true.
    Yet people are happy to take the word of people on twitter hitting on the govt over this somewhat benign announcement, once you look at what was said.

    Nothing will happen. Nothing will change. It’s just froth for the election.
    That doesn't give you a pass for spreading complete nonsense. It's embarrassing. Your should be embarrassed.

    Have you no self-respect?

    It's this sort of crap that helps politicians like get away with rubbish like pretending the state finances can be fixed by cutting down on welfare fraud.
    I’d be embarrassed to be a paid scribe to write shit like this.

    “Now I see it and I'm really sorry. By having a heart attack I have let my country down. More importantly, I have let Rishi Sunak down”
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,895
    Sandpit said:

    I know it’s a generally unpopular view on here, but sticking with Liz Truss would have been better than what Sunak is doing at the moment.

    Lets play the scenario. Sticking with her is a Truss who was neutered by the markets and had to fire her ex from the Treasury and put Hunt in. Her agenda had been utterly demolished.

    What would the continuation of her government achieved? The big problem with Sunak is that he stands for nothing and achieves less. Would the neutered Truss have been any better?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,061
    Taz said:

    ...

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    @JohnJCrace

    Now I see it and I'm really sorry. By having a heart attack I have let my country down. More importantly, I have let Rishi Sunak down

    @tompeck

    If you were going to do a comedy musical about the last fourteen years of Conservative government, what better ending could you hope for than the prime minister giving a big speech out of nowhere, to tell everyone that they’re not really depressed?


    @Parody_PM

    "Some vulnerable people will become destitute, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make"


    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1781346078190686276?s=61
    There will always be abusers of any system where "free" money is available. Sunak is not targeting this chap, "it's the lot of them, they're all as bad as each other, when I'm short of a bob or two, I don't rely on the state, I ask my wife for a sub ".
    I’m not sure he is going to do anything, only be seen to, and his speech was quite benign. I suspect this is just cheap electioneering. Nothing more nothing less.
    The only reason it can be viewed as 'benign' is that he'll likely never get the chance to turn the vibes into policy which is then legislated.

    Given another term in government, I think it might have been a pretty radical change.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,627

    ...

    darkage said:

    Foxy said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    There is the possibility that rise in long term sick is gunuine, rather than skiving. It seems specific to Britain, as a similar phenomenon doesn't seem to be true elsewhere but isn't impossible.

    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/policy/health/64510/is-britain-sicker-than-a-decade-ago
    Possibly a consequence of intractable economic and social problems (housing, work etc); in combination with 'disability' being the one residual safety net.
    There may well be abuse of the system, on the other hand post COVID, there may be minimal abuse.

    Sunak clearly doesn't understand or like poor people. I am reminded of his teenage interview where he implied he hadn't really met any "working class" people.

    In the early days of his premiership Sunak came across as "decent" after the excesses of Johnson and Truss. These days he comes across as vain, entitled, petty and nasty.

    His scorn isn't merely for scroungers. Each week one can tell in his voice the utter contempt he has for working class social-climber made good, Starmer. Same goes for Rayner, a peasant in Rishi's world who clearly doesn't know her place.

    Sunak clearly despises the jeering mob opposite, then again he must detest a good bunch of the oiks behind him.
    Two reasonably foreseeable problems with Sunak.

    First is that he's our first truly meritocratic Prime Minister (in the bad sense). Even Maggie had a bit of understanding of the duty of the rich to do reasonably by the poor. Methodism will do that to a gal.

    Second is the unimaginability of the size of Sunak's pile of dosh. Even people who are very well off (normal bankers, say) are poor compared to the Sunaks. Goodness only knows what he makes of people making a living on a normal public sector professional salary. Probably thinks it serves them right for not doing maths and going to work for a hedge fund.
    I am not sure Sunak is worthy of comparison to the genuinely meritocratic Thatcher, although both had a shopkeeper parent and married well.
    It's quite hard to find the original text of The Rise of the Meritocracy, but worth seeking out.

    Young's 2001 article provides a summary here, but he certainly did not mean Meritocracy as an unqualified good. Indeed his concept was meant as a warning, and a warning of Sunakism even.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/jun/29/comment
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Taz said:

    ...

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    @JohnJCrace

    Now I see it and I'm really sorry. By having a heart attack I have let my country down. More importantly, I have let Rishi Sunak down

    @tompeck

    If you were going to do a comedy musical about the last fourteen years of Conservative government, what better ending could you hope for than the prime minister giving a big speech out of nowhere, to tell everyone that they’re not really depressed?


    @Parody_PM

    "Some vulnerable people will become destitute, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make"


    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1781346078190686276?s=61
    There will always be abusers of any system where "free" money is available. Sunak is not targeting this chap, "it's the lot of them, they're all as bad as each other, when I'm short of a bob or two, I don't rely on the state, I ask my wife for a sub ".
    I’m not sure he is going to do anything, only be seen to, and his speech was quite benign. I suspect this is just cheap electioneering. Nothing more nothing less.
    "Othering" poor people simply for a vote is despicable. If that is the case, and I hope you are wrong, it is far from benign.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,652

    Raynergate might not be cutting through, but I am sensing restlessness in the remainer camp. There is a tacit contract that rejoiners (who are 60% of the electorate) will vote tory with the prospect of initiating a long term process towards SM an eventually rejoining. But Starmer basically might as well be Farage with good PR when it comes to the EU. If the GE comes and goes and the mask doesn't drop on the EU there will be FURY. My guess is that this very fluid and illoyal electorate will find new pastures. Just to illustrate yougov found that only 12% strongly oppose SM.

    Omnisis/WeThink10-11.4.24Rejoin/Stay Out62/38

    Brexiteerism is a dying movement married to the declining boomer segment. Rejoin enjoud huge majorities in the under 60 year olds. Labour is making a huge error if it remains so rigid on the eu. Everybody i talk to is betting that this brexit kabuki theater from labour is just electoral strategy and will fall away.... it better or labour support will drop like a rock in government.

    I think this is a very important point. I find it hard to believe that the Labour leadership does not understand the depth of anti-Brexit feeling inside the party generally and that this is largely being kept in check by the prospect of power. Should we get a Labour government on the other side of a general election, there will be immense - I think irresistible - pressure to secure a closer relationship with the EU. If Starmer and co seek to hold back the dam, they are going to get overwhelmed. This is so clearly obvious to anyone close to or inside the Labour party that I cannot believe the leadership is unaware. But if it is, it is going to be in for a very big surprise.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,576
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    I know it’s a generally unpopular view on here, but sticking with Liz Truss would have been better than what Sunak is doing at the moment.

    That seems to assume that Truss's popularity had bottomed out when she was deposed. Quite possibly her plunge would have continued. It took 18 months for Sunaks popularity to sink quite so low.
    At least she came with a positive attitude, and would have been singing the country’s praises from the rooftops, and be willing to think outside the box.

    Sunak appears to stand for nothing except managing the decline, and he’s as popular as he deserves to be.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,061
    nico679 said:

    It is hard to follow Raynergate, especially since James Daly for the Conservatives refused to say just what she was accused of. (Snip)

    Have Labour mentioned exactly what they think Menzies did, since they reported him to the police?
    Quite frankly it's none of Labour's business. It looks really, really bad on them after they have quite rightly bellyached about James Daly. Shame on them.

    Mind you, one would have thought the Fylde branch of the Conservative Party would be pretty enraged by Mr Menzies's behaviour in relation to the misuse of Party funds.
    If Daly hadn’t have gone after Rayner then I doubt they would have reported Menzies . It’s all gearing upto be a very ugly election campaign .
    I'm reasonably sure the Menzies story would have resulted in a police investigation even without Labour's intervention.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68851004
    ..The BBC did not initially name Ms Fieldhouse but she has now agreed to be named and speak publicly for the first time.
    Ms Fieldhouse told the BBC she raised her concerns with the Conservative Chief Whip Simon Hart after discussing money with Mr Menzies again.
    Although the Conservative Party started an investigation, Ms Fieldhouse said she was left "appalled" by the inaction.
    The Times reported that the scandal was reported to the Mr Hart back in January. Since her report "nothing happened" Ms Fieldhouse said.
    "I put my faith completely in the party," but the "party has let me down," she told the BBC.
    She said: "I am not having this brushed under the carpet.
    ..
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,354
    edited April 20

    ...

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    @JohnJCrace

    Now I see it and I'm really sorry. By having a heart attack I have let my country down. More importantly, I have let Rishi Sunak down

    @tompeck

    If you were going to do a comedy musical about the last fourteen years of Conservative government, what better ending could you hope for than the prime minister giving a big speech out of nowhere, to tell everyone that they’re not really depressed?


    @Parody_PM

    "Some vulnerable people will become destitute, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make"


    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1781346078190686276?s=61
    There will always be abusers of any system where "free" money is available. Sunak is not targeting this chap, "it's the lot of them, they're all as bad as each other, when I'm short of a bob or two, I don't rely on the state, I ask my wife for a sub ".
    The guy in the video doesn't even say that he claims this money. He just says to trust him, that it's "factual", that you can phone the DWP (with your sleep apnea diagnosis from a doctor, lol) and then they will pay it. Good luck with that.

    The video is fraudulent.

    People need to be a bit more critical of the bollocks they read and watch online.
    Does anyone have some actual numbers on the fraud rates for various benefits?

    Does anyone have some actual data on the breakdown of the conditions for which people are off sick?
    The government published number for welfare fraud is 2.7% - though this is of course an estimate, based on the level of fraud they've detected and then some assumptions.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/fraud-and-error-in-the-benefit-system-financial-year-2022-to-2023-estimates/fraud-and-error-in-the-benefit-system-financial-year-ending-fye-2023

    I'm sure they have some numbers on what people are claiming the benefits for. UK government data releases are quite good overall.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,362
    edited April 20
    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/ (£££)

    As Rishi seeks to address Britain's post-Covid sick note (now renamed fit note something something 1984) culture, his government proposes to extend state control of people's, or children's, lives with bans on smoking, smacking and smartphones. Not exactly small state, however meritorious those measures.

    @JohnJCrace

    Now I see it and I'm really sorry. By having a heart attack I have let my country down. More importantly, I have let Rishi Sunak down

    @tompeck

    If you were going to do a comedy musical about the last fourteen years of Conservative government, what better ending could you hope for than the prime minister giving a big speech out of nowhere, to tell everyone that they’re not really depressed?


    @Parody_PM

    "Some vulnerable people will become destitute, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make"


    https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1781346078190686276?s=61
    You need to have sleep apnea. You need a diagnosis of same. You need DWP to then grant you the benefits on that basis.

    Has anyone tried claiming that and actually had it paid to them?

    Given the people who are disabled and have their applications refused I would be extremely surprised if anyone ever received a penny for sleep apnea - not least because it can be treated with CPAP.

    But, of course, a tiktoker said it, so it must be true.
    Yet people are happy to take the word of people on twitter hitting on the govt over this somewhat benign announcement, once you look at what was said.

    After all is that any more or less facile than the terminally unfunny John Crace wilfully misrepresenting, ‘ Now I see it and I'm really sorry. By having a heart attack I have let my country down. More importantly, I have let Rishi Sunak down’.

    Nothing will happen. Nothing will change. It’s just froth for the election.
    Replacing real doctors with contractors without qualifications is benign?
    It is not only Doctors at the moment who can issue these. The scope was widened a few years back to add nurses and pharmacists. So Doctors do not issue these already and he is talking about unspecified healthcare professionals not some random guy off the street with a CSE grade 1 in woodwork.

    He has also said this will be brought in if they win the election. It’s just desperation.
This discussion has been closed.