Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Everyone is from where they live.
When I go to work, or go to the shops, I go from my home.
I don't go from my birthplace.
“ When I go to work, or go to the shops, I go from my home. ”
It'll be interesting to compare Caroline Henry and "Every political job in Nottinghamshire" Ben Bradley's votes. Not sure if he'll win (East Mids Mayor is a larger electorate than just Notts) but my guess is he'll perform considerably better than Henry (Police Commissioner) in the Nottinghamshire area. Personally I'd be staggered if she gets back in, and frankly I'm amazed the Conservatives have put her up as the candidate again.
Given that she won over Labour by 139k to 131k last time it's a bit of a one-way bet.
Think I'll go for a Bradley / Godden split with my votes tbh. He managed not to raise Notts County Council's bit of the pot by 0.13% as much as he could (Or more importantly bankrupt it), which is worth the price of a sandwich at Tesco to me and is seemingly promising not to precept the mayoralty (We'll see...) which Labour will no doubt do. Small mercies and all OTOH I actively want to see speeding Henry out.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Everyone is from where they live.
When I go to work, or go to the shops, I go from my home.
I don't go from my birthplace.
I’ve lived in a place for nearly three years, and would never say I’m from there. I don’t think it’s as simple as you’re making out
So, how real is the tax gap and can “clamping down on tax dodgers” reduce it? I think it can, if targeted properly.
There are broadly 3 types of “tax dodging”:
- Hard avoidance (deliberate use of abusive, but legal, schemes to reduce or avoid tax) - Hard evasion: everything from paying staff cash in hand to international money laundering - Soft evasion: taxpayers taking shortcuts, not bothering to declare gains, over claiming reliefs or credits, either wilfully or through ignorance
Most big ticket hard avoidance has been successfully countered by HMRC in the last 2 decades through targeted and general anti avoidance rules, especially at the large corporate end of the spectrum. But some of it remains in the SME world alongside unscrupulous promoters. There is some scope there with greater HMRC resources, mainly through greater compliance enforcement.
Hard evasion will always exist and tackling it requires manpower and technology. But I’m not sure how big a tax gap is left there.
Soft evasion is pretty common and I’d say that’s where the most opportunity lies. The more effort and resources HMRC put in, the greater the yield.
There’s another thing altogether which gets conflated with “cracking down on tax dodgers” and that’s “closing loopholes”. That’s not cracking down on dodgers, it’s changing the law to broaden the tax base. In many cases the so called loophole is a deliberate policy position - to encourage investment say, or ensure fairness of proportionality. Nothing wrong with changing tax law but that counts as a tax rise, not closing the tax gap.
One of the fascinating things about how much the rich really pay is the significant variation in the rates, as you say based on the very wide range of allowances and differential tax rates.
"one in ten people with total remuneration over £1 million paid a lower EATR than someone earning just £15,000. This proportion rises to one in four of those with total remuneration between £5 million and £10 million."
"An Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT) that required everyone earning more than £100,000 to pay at least a 35% tax rate on their taxable income and gains could raise around £11 billion. This is equivalent to the static effect of increasing the basic rate of Income Tax by 2p, or both the higher and additional rates by 5p. However, an AMT would raise the money from those among the rich who are paying the lowest shares, while limiting the scope for avoidance"
Around the period 2006-2009, I was fortunate enough to be earning enough to fall in the 40% income tax band. And I remember, on this site, people moaning about a certain variety of CGT being raised from 8% to 18%, and they expected me to sympathise!
As I’ve commented in previous threads, my effective tax rate on all income is comfortably north of 50%. I don’t know what the opposite of tax dodging is, but that’s what it looks like.
Without wishing to delve into you personal finances, how do you get close to that figure?
Are you including VAT on your spend, Council Tax, etc.?
The state aims to collect £800 billion + in taxes. Let us say that there are 40 million of us who do significant and more than trivial tax paying (so leave out children, many students, the poorer OAPs, the submerged tenth/benefits junkies). That's £20K per head, per year. And though BP, Tesco etc do their bit, ultimately it is people who, even if indirectly, do all the paying. Although it is often invisible and indirect, it is an unavoidable conclusion that a lot of better off people are really paying 50%+ in tax; there is no other way of doing the arithmentic. Also obvious that large scale, very wealthy, evaders/avoiders are a drain on the rest of us.
I certainly understand that if the total tax take is 36% of GDP then some will be contributing more than 50% overall but that includes their share of a lot of corporate taxes including corporation tax of course but also employer NICs, oil and gas revenues, the banking levy, betting & gaming duties, etc. etc.
Is it fair to include all those non-personal taxes when assessing your personal tax rate as north of 50%? I don't think so.
Employer NIC is a tax on their own wages so of course it should be counted as personal taxation.
Though if it was reduced, would the employee benefit, or would employers pocket it?
What are the problems with an alternative minimum tax? If you earn over £100k you have to pay at least 35% of that in taxes, basically the equivalent of Betfair's premium charge.
All income should be taxed at the same rate, regardless of how it is earned.
35% is less than someone on PAYE is paying, so its too low.
Nobody should be paying a lower tax rate than someone on PAYE.
The more important inverse being that nobody on PAYE should be paying a higher rate that someone off it.
Well there are lots of people earning £1m+ paying less than 15% now.
Forgetting your ideal scenario, for the highest earners wouldn't it make sense to add in a floor on tax on earnings that cannot be reduced by allowances and tax loopholes?
How?
And if you can, why not set the floor at the same rate as PAYE?
The effective tax rate of people on PAYE will also vary a bit depending on their circumstances and use of allowances and pension savings, it seems fair to allow the rich some flexibility in arranging their finances too. But paying 15% on £1m is taxing the piss and should be stopped. Anything from 25-40% sounds a sensible-ish range for a minimum to me.
Allowances fall within the scheme and pensions reduce taxable income it doesn't reduce the percentage applied to taxable income.
Same should happen with any alternative minimum I think. Pension contributions reduce taxable income, since it's not taken as income at all and will be taxed when taken instead, but all income then is taxed at same percentage.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Davey had been minister for 5 minutes. Receives a letter about something he knew nothing about, asked the officials, sent the departmental response.
Tories would love the entire scandal to be his fault and his alone, but wishing won't be enough to save those blue wall seats. Voters are not stupid...
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Everyone is from where they live.
When I go to work, or go to the shops, I go from my home.
I don't go from my birthplace.
In Scotland, there is a distinction between "where are you from?" and "and where do you stay?". I am from Worcestershire but I stay in Renfrewshire.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Everyone is from where they live.
When I go to work, or go to the shops, I go from my home.
I don't go from my birthplace.
I’ve lived in a place for nearly three years, and would never say I’m from there. I don’t think it’s as simple as you’re making out
So, how real is the tax gap and can “clamping down on tax dodgers” reduce it? I think it can, if targeted properly.
There are broadly 3 types of “tax dodging”:
- Hard avoidance (deliberate use of abusive, but legal, schemes to reduce or avoid tax) - Hard evasion: everything from paying staff cash in hand to international money laundering - Soft evasion: taxpayers taking shortcuts, not bothering to declare gains, over claiming reliefs or credits, either wilfully or through ignorance
Most big ticket hard avoidance has been successfully countered by HMRC in the last 2 decades through targeted and general anti avoidance rules, especially at the large corporate end of the spectrum. But some of it remains in the SME world alongside unscrupulous promoters. There is some scope there with greater HMRC resources, mainly through greater compliance enforcement.
Hard evasion will always exist and tackling it requires manpower and technology. But I’m not sure how big a tax gap is left there.
Soft evasion is pretty common and I’d say that’s where the most opportunity lies. The more effort and resources HMRC put in, the greater the yield.
There’s another thing altogether which gets conflated with “cracking down on tax dodgers” and that’s “closing loopholes”. That’s not cracking down on dodgers, it’s changing the law to broaden the tax base. In many cases the so called loophole is a deliberate policy position - to encourage investment say, or ensure fairness of proportionality. Nothing wrong with changing tax law but that counts as a tax rise, not closing the tax gap.
One of the fascinating things about how much the rich really pay is the significant variation in the rates, as you say based on the very wide range of allowances and differential tax rates.
"one in ten people with total remuneration over £1 million paid a lower EATR than someone earning just £15,000. This proportion rises to one in four of those with total remuneration between £5 million and £10 million."
"An Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT) that required everyone earning more than £100,000 to pay at least a 35% tax rate on their taxable income and gains could raise around £11 billion. This is equivalent to the static effect of increasing the basic rate of Income Tax by 2p, or both the higher and additional rates by 5p. However, an AMT would raise the money from those among the rich who are paying the lowest shares, while limiting the scope for avoidance"
Around the period 2006-2009, I was fortunate enough to be earning enough to fall in the 40% income tax band. And I remember, on this site, people moaning about a certain variety of CGT being raised from 8% to 18%, and they expected me to sympathise!
As I’ve commented in previous threads, my effective tax rate on all income is comfortably north of 50%. I don’t know what the opposite of tax dodging is, but that’s what it looks like.
Without wishing to delve into you personal finances, how do you get close to that figure?
Are you including VAT on your spend, Council Tax, etc.?
The state aims to collect £800 billion + in taxes. Let us say that there are 40 million of us who do significant and more than trivial tax paying (so leave out children, many students, the poorer OAPs, the submerged tenth/benefits junkies). That's £20K per head, per year. And though BP, Tesco etc do their bit, ultimately it is people who, even if indirectly, do all the paying. Although it is often invisible and indirect, it is an unavoidable conclusion that a lot of better off people are really paying 50%+ in tax; there is no other way of doing the arithmentic. Also obvious that large scale, very wealthy, evaders/avoiders are a drain on the rest of us.
I certainly understand that if the total tax take is 36% of GDP then some will be contributing more than 50% overall but that includes their share of a lot of corporate taxes including corporation tax of course but also employer NICs, oil and gas revenues, the banking levy, betting & gaming duties, etc. etc.
Is it fair to include all those non-personal taxes when assessing your personal tax rate as north of 50%? I don't think so.
Employer NIC is a tax on their own wages so of course it should be counted as personal taxation.
Though if it was reduced, would the employee benefit, or would employers pocket it?
Many people think it’s time for LIZ TRUSS to gracefully return to the helm.
She was hugely popular with many PB Tories of course, and with the wider world at large.
Perhaps this time she will stage a comeback based on a greater degree of ideological purity.
It seems inevitable.
TRUSS.
I do wish you wouldn't do that. I see the word and think 'oh good, something interesting on the Baltimore bridge collapse or something'. Instead of something that's chronologically stem-high to a lettuce.
Providing Truss's recollection is correct, how immensely wise once again from HMQ.
I am still livid with her doctors for allowing her to be taken from us.
It's amazing how quickly the royal famz has gone from too big to too small. This time next year, both King Prince Charles and Everybody's Second Favourite Princess of Wales could be brown bread. Leaving us with semi-bonkers King Cueball and the Flowers-in-the-Attic kids. If he decides he's had enough and taps out then we are down to Queen Eugenie and her influencer husband. Fuck me.
No, if One Pint Willy checks out it's George VII, with Prince Edward as Regent. If OPW takes the family on a dodgy helicopter ride, then it's King Henry IX and Queen Meghan.
The line of succession is probably quite different from how one imagines it. With Lilibet 7th but Anne only 17th, and well below people no-one has heard of like August Brooksbank and Sienna Mozzi (no idea either). It goes:
1 The Prince of Wales 2. Prince George of Wales 3. Princess Charlotte of Wales 4. Prince Louis of Wales 5. The Duke of Sussex 6. Prince Archie of Sussex 7. Princess Lilibet of Sussex 8. The Duke of York 9. Princess Beatrice, Mrs. Edoardo Mapelli Mozzi 10. Miss Sienna Mapelli Mozzi 11. Princess Eugenie, Mrs. Jack Brooksbank 12. Master August Brooksbank 13. Master Ernest Brooksbank 14. The Duke of Edinburgh 15. Earl of Wessex 16. The Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor 17. The Princess Royal 18. Mr. Peter Phillips 19. Miss Savannah Phillips 20. Miss Isla Phillips 21. Mrs. Michael Tindall 22. Miss Mia Tindall 23. Miss Lena Tindall 24. Master Lucas Tindall
So Harry is still fifth in line. What would his Dad say.
Surely he should be removed from the line of succession, seeing that he officially renounced his intention to undertake royal duties.
That would require a government capable of implementing such trifles. Alas we got Sunak and his spreadsheets with fancy conditional formatting.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Davey had been minister for 5 minutes. Receives a letter about something he knew nothing about, asked the officials, sent the departmental response.
Tories would love the entire scandal to be his fault and his alone, but wishing won't be enough to save those blue wall seats. Voters are not stupid...
Are you listening to this testimony because it is nothing to do with the conservatives unless you are accusing Alan Bates of being one
So, how real is the tax gap and can “clamping down on tax dodgers” reduce it? I think it can, if targeted properly.
There are broadly 3 types of “tax dodging”:
- Hard avoidance (deliberate use of abusive, but legal, schemes to reduce or avoid tax) - Hard evasion: everything from paying staff cash in hand to international money laundering - Soft evasion: taxpayers taking shortcuts, not bothering to declare gains, over claiming reliefs or credits, either wilfully or through ignorance
Most big ticket hard avoidance has been successfully countered by HMRC in the last 2 decades through targeted and general anti avoidance rules, especially at the large corporate end of the spectrum. But some of it remains in the SME world alongside unscrupulous promoters. There is some scope there with greater HMRC resources, mainly through greater compliance enforcement.
Hard evasion will always exist and tackling it requires manpower and technology. But I’m not sure how big a tax gap is left there.
Soft evasion is pretty common and I’d say that’s where the most opportunity lies. The more effort and resources HMRC put in, the greater the yield.
There’s another thing altogether which gets conflated with “cracking down on tax dodgers” and that’s “closing loopholes”. That’s not cracking down on dodgers, it’s changing the law to broaden the tax base. In many cases the so called loophole is a deliberate policy position - to encourage investment say, or ensure fairness of proportionality. Nothing wrong with changing tax law but that counts as a tax rise, not closing the tax gap.
One of the fascinating things about how much the rich really pay is the significant variation in the rates, as you say based on the very wide range of allowances and differential tax rates.
"one in ten people with total remuneration over £1 million paid a lower EATR than someone earning just £15,000. This proportion rises to one in four of those with total remuneration between £5 million and £10 million."
"An Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT) that required everyone earning more than £100,000 to pay at least a 35% tax rate on their taxable income and gains could raise around £11 billion. This is equivalent to the static effect of increasing the basic rate of Income Tax by 2p, or both the higher and additional rates by 5p. However, an AMT would raise the money from those among the rich who are paying the lowest shares, while limiting the scope for avoidance"
Around the period 2006-2009, I was fortunate enough to be earning enough to fall in the 40% income tax band. And I remember, on this site, people moaning about a certain variety of CGT being raised from 8% to 18%, and they expected me to sympathise!
As I’ve commented in previous threads, my effective tax rate on all income is comfortably north of 50%. I don’t know what the opposite of tax dodging is, but that’s what it looks like.
Without wishing to delve into you personal finances, how do you get close to that figure?
Are you including VAT on your spend, Council Tax, etc.?
The state aims to collect £800 billion + in taxes. Let us say that there are 40 million of us who do significant and more than trivial tax paying (so leave out children, many students, the poorer OAPs, the submerged tenth/benefits junkies). That's £20K per head, per year. And though BP, Tesco etc do their bit, ultimately it is people who, even if indirectly, do all the paying. Although it is often invisible and indirect, it is an unavoidable conclusion that a lot of better off people are really paying 50%+ in tax; there is no other way of doing the arithmentic. Also obvious that large scale, very wealthy, evaders/avoiders are a drain on the rest of us.
I certainly understand that if the total tax take is 36% of GDP then some will be contributing more than 50% overall but that includes their share of a lot of corporate taxes including corporation tax of course but also employer NICs, oil and gas revenues, the banking levy, betting & gaming duties, etc. etc.
Is it fair to include all those non-personal taxes when assessing your personal tax rate as north of 50%? I don't think so.
Employer NIC is a tax on their own wages so of course it should be counted as personal taxation.
Though if it was reduced, would the employee benefit, or would employers pocket it?
Employees would benefit, though it would take some time for a new equilibrium to be reached.
Employers have a budget to operate within for their labour, this is not an indirect tax it is a direct tax on wages, so reduces wages proportionately.
Anyone who claims this isn't a direct tax on wages, is delusional or lying.
Davey had been minister for 5 minutes. Receives a letter about something he knew nothing about, asked the officials, sent the departmental response.
Tories would love the entire scandal to be his fault and his alone, but wishing won't be enough to save those blue wall seats. Voters are not stupid...
Are you listening to this testimony because it is nothing to do with the conservatives unless you are accusing Alan Bates of being one
We're talking about the initial exchange of letters in 2010 aren't we?
The Tories and their fellow travellers have been desperately trying to deflect the scandal away from them onto anyone else. For understandable reasons when you realise what they have been up to recently.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Everyone is from where they live.
When I go to work, or go to the shops, I go from my home.
I don't go from my birthplace.
I’ve lived in a place for nearly three years, and would never say I’m from there. I don’t think it’s as simple as you’re making out
When I'm on holiday if I get asked where I'm from I'm going to say Dorset.
When I'm in our local supermarket if I got asked where I was from, I'd probably say 'Sussex originally'.
It's all about context with a big overlap on what the best answer might be. Worth noting too that the first example above is pretty common the second is fairly rare - so I'm most likely to be answering where I live, rather than where I was born or raised.
Davey had been minister for 5 minutes. Receives a letter about something he knew nothing about, asked the officials, sent the departmental response.
Tories would love the entire scandal to be his fault and his alone, but wishing won't be enough to save those blue wall seats. Voters are not stupid...
What have the tories been doing about it for the last decade? A big lib dem did it and ran away ain't gonna cut it.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
Davey had been minister for 5 minutes. Receives a letter about something he knew nothing about, asked the officials, sent the departmental response.
Tories would love the entire scandal to be his fault and his alone, but wishing won't be enough to save those blue wall seats. Voters are not stupid...
Are you listening to this testimony because it is nothing to do with the conservatives unless you are accusing Alan Bates of being one
We're talking about the initial exchange of letters in 2010 aren't we?
The Tories and their fellow travellers have been desperately trying to deflect the scandal away from them onto anyone else. For understandable reasons when you realise what they have been up to recently.
Sorry but you are just being partisan and my wife who is not political was not only astonished by the correspondence but was angry on how Davey responded to Alan Bates who she knew and was part of the community who shopped at his post office in Craig y don
Davey had been minister for 5 minutes. Receives a letter about something he knew nothing about, asked the officials, sent the departmental response.
Tories would love the entire scandal to be his fault and his alone, but wishing won't be enough to save those blue wall seats. Voters are not stupid...
Are you listening to this testimony because it is nothing to do with the conservatives unless you are accusing Alan Bates of being one
And the Conservatives stood up for subpostmasters against the evil Ed Davey by ... making him a knight 5 years later, and Paula Vennells a CBE 4 years after that.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
Indeed. And I imagine if you're non-white when you get asked the question in this country there's sometimes going to be a nasty taint of racism underlying it.
So, how real is the tax gap and can “clamping down on tax dodgers” reduce it? I think it can, if targeted properly.
There are broadly 3 types of “tax dodging”:
- Hard avoidance (deliberate use of abusive, but legal, schemes to reduce or avoid tax) - Hard evasion: everything from paying staff cash in hand to international money laundering - Soft evasion: taxpayers taking shortcuts, not bothering to declare gains, over claiming reliefs or credits, either wilfully or through ignorance
Most big ticket hard avoidance has been successfully countered by HMRC in the last 2 decades through targeted and general anti avoidance rules, especially at the large corporate end of the spectrum. But some of it remains in the SME world alongside unscrupulous promoters. There is some scope there with greater HMRC resources, mainly through greater compliance enforcement.
Hard evasion will always exist and tackling it requires manpower and technology. But I’m not sure how big a tax gap is left there.
Soft evasion is pretty common and I’d say that’s where the most opportunity lies. The more effort and resources HMRC put in, the greater the yield.
There’s another thing altogether which gets conflated with “cracking down on tax dodgers” and that’s “closing loopholes”. That’s not cracking down on dodgers, it’s changing the law to broaden the tax base. In many cases the so called loophole is a deliberate policy position - to encourage investment say, or ensure fairness of proportionality. Nothing wrong with changing tax law but that counts as a tax rise, not closing the tax gap.
One of the fascinating things about how much the rich really pay is the significant variation in the rates, as you say based on the very wide range of allowances and differential tax rates.
"one in ten people with total remuneration over £1 million paid a lower EATR than someone earning just £15,000. This proportion rises to one in four of those with total remuneration between £5 million and £10 million."
"An Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT) that required everyone earning more than £100,000 to pay at least a 35% tax rate on their taxable income and gains could raise around £11 billion. This is equivalent to the static effect of increasing the basic rate of Income Tax by 2p, or both the higher and additional rates by 5p. However, an AMT would raise the money from those among the rich who are paying the lowest shares, while limiting the scope for avoidance"
Around the period 2006-2009, I was fortunate enough to be earning enough to fall in the 40% income tax band. And I remember, on this site, people moaning about a certain variety of CGT being raised from 8% to 18%, and they expected me to sympathise!
As I’ve commented in previous threads, my effective tax rate on all income is comfortably north of 50%. I don’t know what the opposite of tax dodging is, but that’s what it looks like.
Without wishing to delve into you personal finances, how do you get close to that figure?
Are you including VAT on your spend, Council Tax, etc.?
The state aims to collect £800 billion + in taxes. Let us say that there are 40 million of us who do significant and more than trivial tax paying (so leave out children, many students, the poorer OAPs, the submerged tenth/benefits junkies). That's £20K per head, per year. And though BP, Tesco etc do their bit, ultimately it is people who, even if indirectly, do all the paying. Although it is often invisible and indirect, it is an unavoidable conclusion that a lot of better off people are really paying 50%+ in tax; there is no other way of doing the arithmentic. Also obvious that large scale, very wealthy, evaders/avoiders are a drain on the rest of us.
I certainly understand that if the total tax take is 36% of GDP then some will be contributing more than 50% overall but that includes their share of a lot of corporate taxes including corporation tax of course but also employer NICs, oil and gas revenues, the banking levy, betting & gaming duties, etc. etc.
Is it fair to include all those non-personal taxes when assessing your personal tax rate as north of 50%? I don't think so.
Employer NIC is a tax on their own wages so of course it should be counted as personal taxation.
Though if it was reduced, would the employee benefit, or would employers pocket it?
Employees would benefit, though it would take some time for a new equilibrium to be reached.
Employers have a budget to operate within for their labour, this is not an indirect tax it is a direct tax on wages, so reduces wages proportionately.
Anyone who claims this isn't a direct tax on wages, is delusional or lying.
The employer's accountants would class it as an overhead or a "direct on-cost".
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
What do you say when an American you bump into on holiday in Europe asks you?
Many people think it’s time for LIZ TRUSS to gracefully return to the helm.
She was hugely popular with many PB Tories of course, and with the wider world at large.
Perhaps this time she will stage a comeback based on a greater degree of ideological purity.
It seems inevitable.
TRUSS.
I do wish you wouldn't do that. I see the word and think 'oh good, something interesting on the Baltimore bridge collapse or something'. Instead of something that's chronologically stem-high to a lettuce.
Providing Truss's recollection is correct, how immensely wise once again from HMQ.
I am still livid with her doctors for allowing her to be taken from us.
It's amazing how quickly the royal famz has gone from too big to too small. This time next year, both King Prince Charles and Everybody's Second Favourite Princess of Wales could be brown bread. Leaving us with semi-bonkers King Cueball and the Flowers-in-the-Attic kids. If he decides he's had enough and taps out then we are down to Queen Eugenie and her influencer husband. Fuck me.
No, if One Pint Willy checks out it's George VII, with Prince Edward as Regent. If OPW takes the family on a dodgy helicopter ride, then it's King Henry IX and Queen Meghan.
The line of succession is probably quite different from how one imagines it. With Lilibet 7th but Anne only 17th, and well below people no-one has heard of like August Brooksbank and Sienna Mozzi (no idea either). It goes:
1 The Prince of Wales 2. Prince George of Wales 3. Princess Charlotte of Wales 4. Prince Louis of Wales 5. The Duke of Sussex 6. Prince Archie of Sussex 7. Princess Lilibet of Sussex 8. The Duke of York 9. Princess Beatrice, Mrs. Edoardo Mapelli Mozzi 10. Miss Sienna Mapelli Mozzi 11. Princess Eugenie, Mrs. Jack Brooksbank 12. Master August Brooksbank 13. Master Ernest Brooksbank 14. The Duke of Edinburgh 15. Earl of Wessex 16. The Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor 17. The Princess Royal 18. Mr. Peter Phillips 19. Miss Savannah Phillips 20. Miss Isla Phillips 21. Mrs. Michael Tindall 22. Miss Mia Tindall 23. Miss Lena Tindall 24. Master Lucas Tindall
So Harry is still fifth in line. What would his Dad say.
Surely he should be removed from the line of succession, seeing that he officially renounced his intention to undertake royal duties.
The succession is a matter for parliament and legislation. If you think any government plans to touch this matter with a 10 foot pole unless and until it became an urgent matter of what happens tomorrow, think again. Meanwhile, family travelling together is not recommended.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
What do you say when an American you bump into on holiday in Europe asks you?
Coventry. Near Birmingham. About a hundred miles from London...
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
Can’t believe that every single manager that’s won the Premier League has been from England myself
Davey had been minister for 5 minutes. Receives a letter about something he knew nothing about, asked the officials, sent the departmental response.
Tories would love the entire scandal to be his fault and his alone, but wishing won't be enough to save those blue wall seats. Voters are not stupid...
Are you listening to this testimony because it is nothing to do with the conservatives unless you are accusing Alan Bates of being one
We're talking about the initial exchange of letters in 2010 aren't we?
The Tories and their fellow travellers have been desperately trying to deflect the scandal away from them onto anyone else. For understandable reasons when you realise what they have been up to recently.
Sorry but you are just being partisan and my wife who is not political was not only astonished by the correspondence but was angry on how Davey responded to Alan Bates who she knew and was part of the community who shopped at his post office in Craig y don
I'm being partisan in calling out the Tories' partisan attack? The Tory media has been out trying to lump the entire thing on Davey whilst giving Badenoch and all the other Tory ministers an absolute free pass.
Was the Davey letter helpful? Absolutely not - as he has said repeatedly. But where is the contrition from any of the Tories? The only criticism is aimed at Davey and Starmer which is absurd as even you must agree with.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
I wouldn't claim to be from Yorkshire either although I've been living here for 25 years.
Though maybe that's because I'm actually from the other side of the Pennines.
What are the problems with an alternative minimum tax? If you earn over £100k you have to pay at least 35% of that in taxes, basically the equivalent of Betfair's premium charge.
All income should be taxed at the same rate, regardless of how it is earned.
35% is less than someone on PAYE is paying, so its too low.
Nobody should be paying a lower tax rate than someone on PAYE.
The more important inverse being that nobody on PAYE should be paying a higher rate that someone off it.
Well there are lots of people earning £1m+ paying less than 15% now.
Forgetting your ideal scenario, for the highest earners wouldn't it make sense to add in a floor on tax on earnings that cannot be reduced by allowances and tax loopholes?
How?
And if you can, why not set the floor at the same rate as PAYE?
The effective tax rate of people on PAYE will also vary a bit depending on their circumstances and use of allowances and pension savings, it seems fair to allow the rich some flexibility in arranging their finances too. But paying 15% on £1m is taxing the piss and should be stopped. Anything from 25-40% sounds a sensible-ish range for a minimum to me.
The problem with minimum tax rates is that, in the same bill introducing them, will be 200 pages of exemptions.
It takes a bold chancellor to remove tax fiddles.
I recall one PB’r who was screaming when Osborne killed a bunch of bullshit to do with using “investing” in British films as a tax break.
It's hard to tell what Sunak's legacy will be, because we haven't yet seen what Labour will rapidly reverse (such as cancelling HS2 to Manchester?), or what they will build upon (cutting NI instead of Income Tax?)
It's possible that in two decades time we'll be talking about the young British chess prodigy who learnt their game on one of Sunak's chessboards (have any of them been installed yet?)
My guess is that Sunak will be seen as the father of the strongest radical right movement in British history. His replacement of Liz Truss - the defeated candidate replacing the victorious candidate without a further leadership election vote - and his subsequent failure to win the argument on the right as to why that was necessary, will come to be seen as the trigger event that launched the hard right in Britain.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
What do you say when an American you bump into on holiday in Europe asks you?
Coventry. Near Birmingham. About a hundred miles from London...
I don't deny it's a valid answer but it's not how I would answer; in your position I would say Sheffield.
I acknowledge your answer is valid, please also accept that many would choose my approach.
(PS Coventry would need no qualifier, shirley? Indeed, with that qualifier, said American is likely to think you're from Alabama.)
That’s repeating something that’s irrelevant to this - the royal courtier asked someone who was born in the UK where they were originally from. Given they were dressed in African get up, it’s not that strange a question.
You can be of Bangladeshi descent and ‘from Oldham’ if you were born in Oldham, or even spent the majority of your childhood in Oldham, but not really if you’re a 25yo who moved to the UK this decade from Bangladesh
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
I'm not from Edinburgh when I'm in Edinburgh, but I am from Edinburgh when I'm elsewhere. I use "grew up in" for where I went to school, but I moved several times so that changes depending on context too.
I think 10 years in a single city or county feels like a rough threshold for "from".
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
What do you say when an American you bump into on holiday in Europe asks you?
Coventry. Near Birmingham. About a hundred miles from London...
I don't deny it's a valid answer but it's not how I would answer; in your position I would say Sheffield.
I acknowledge your answer is valid, please also accept that many would choose my approach.
Earlier today, my fellow octogenarian, Big G from N.Wales, posted that the best thing to have in one's latter years was health, and he's unquestionably right. I wish I could do the things I could do two years ago, let alone 10 or 20! And as for 50 years ago: words fail me! I often agree with Malcolm, but this time I don't. It was easier to get a house 50 years ago; the price my wife and I paid for our first house was about three times my annual salary as a pharmacist; my eldest grandson, There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.a teacher, and his wife, another teacher, who have bought not such a nice house (not such a nice area anyway) have paid five times their combined annual salaries, and it's not so far from where we used to live. It's also at least twice the price of the house, his sister lives in; in Leeds There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now. And my wife, and I, back in the day managed on my salary; she stayed at home and looked after me and the children. My grandson and his wife both need to work.
Incidentally I was mentally reminiscing about politics back in the day and came to the conclusion that we had a lot, as far as the EU is concerned, to blame General de Gaulle for. If he had not vetoed our entry into the EEC back in the early 60's we'd have been in one the ground floor, rather than playing catch up in the 70's.
One thing though OKC, it was much harder to get a mortgage back then. You had to have saved with them for years and they only gave strict limits re multiples , deposits etc. Price deifferentials are higher but I still think easier to get a house today , outside London and south east at least.
Davey had been minister for 5 minutes. Receives a letter about something he knew nothing about, asked the officials, sent the departmental response.
Tories would love the entire scandal to be his fault and his alone, but wishing won't be enough to save those blue wall seats. Voters are not stupid...
Are you listening to this testimony because it is nothing to do with the conservatives unless you are accusing Alan Bates of being one
And the Conservatives stood up for subpostmasters against the evil Ed Davey by ... making him a knight 5 years later, and Paula Vennells a CBE 4 years after that.
The post office scandal is nothing to do with the Conservatives. Why won't people accept that? Making Vennells a CBE was an act of charity - the poor woman needed a pick up. Instructing the PO to block, obsfucate and delay, and instructing civil servants not to pay out money? Davey - or Starmer as DPP. Thats who is to blame.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
I'm living in Ireland, but I'm from London, and my family history includes Austria-Hungary, Hampshire and Peterborough.
It's hard to tell what Sunak's legacy will be, because we haven't yet seen what Labour will rapidly reverse (such as cancelling HS2 to Manchester?), or what they will build upon (cutting NI instead of Income Tax?)
It's possible that in two decades time we'll be talking about the young British chess prodigy who learnt their game on one of Sunak's chessboards (have any of them been installed yet?)
My guess is that Sunak will be seen as the father of the strongest radical right movement in British history. His replacement of Liz Truss - the defeated candidate replacing the victorious candidate without a further leadership election vote - and his subsequent failure to win the argument on the right as to why that was necessary, will come to be seen as the trigger event that launched the hard right in Britain.
Sunak's legacy will be ELE. Little else will be remembered.
Davey had been minister for 5 minutes. Receives a letter about something he knew nothing about, asked the officials, sent the departmental response.
Tories would love the entire scandal to be his fault and his alone, but wishing won't be enough to save those blue wall seats. Voters are not stupid...
Are you listening to this testimony because it is nothing to do with the conservatives unless you are accusing Alan Bates of being one
We're talking about the initial exchange of letters in 2010 aren't we?
The Tories and their fellow travellers have been desperately trying to deflect the scandal away from them onto anyone else. For understandable reasons when you realise what they have been up to recently.
Sorry but you are just being partisan and my wife who is not political was not only astonished by the correspondence but was angry on how Davey responded to Alan Bates who she knew and was part of the community who shopped at his post office in Craig y don
I'm being partisan in calling out the Tories' partisan attack? The Tory media has been out trying to lump the entire thing on Davey whilst giving Badenoch and all the other Tory ministers an absolute free pass.
Was the Davey letter helpful? Absolutely not - as he has said repeatedly. But where is the contrition from any of the Tories? The only criticism is aimed at Davey and Starmer which is absurd as even you must agree with.
The point is it was todays testimony in the enquiry where all the correspondence between Alan Bates and Ed Davey was read out and discussed, and Davey did not come out of it well
Of course there are many other failings by politicians of all parties but today it was specifically the episode between Bates v Davey
This might encourage Ms Rayner to release her tax advice. If she is able to prove that she has paid any tax due, this advert would be perilously close to libel.
Davey had been minister for 5 minutes. Receives a letter about something he knew nothing about, asked the officials, sent the departmental response.
Tories would love the entire scandal to be his fault and his alone, but wishing won't be enough to save those blue wall seats. Voters are not stupid...
Are you listening to this testimony because it is nothing to do with the conservatives unless you are accusing Alan Bates of being one
And the Conservatives stood up for subpostmasters against the evil Ed Davey by ... making him a knight 5 years later, and Paula Vennells a CBE 4 years after that.
The post office scandal is nothing to do with the Conservatives. Why won't people accept that? Making Vennells a CBE was an act of charity - the poor woman needed a pick up. Instructing the PO to block, obsfucate and delay, and instructing civil servants not to pay out money? Davey - or Starmer as DPP. Thats who is to blame.
The prosecutions had nothing to do with Starmer - more than half the issue was the fact the post office did their own prosecuting which resulted in hiding evidence in a way that no self respecting prosecutor would do
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
I was born in Birkenhead but I haven't lived there since I was 7 years old. Would I be wrong to say I'm from where I live instead of Birkenhead?
I for a few years lived abroad on a temporary visa as a child and by coincidence my brother was born there. He's not lived there since he was one, he only has British citizenship, he has no eligibility to citizenship of the country he was born in and has lived in the UK since he was one. Would it be lying to say he is from the UK?
Davey had been minister for 5 minutes. Receives a letter about something he knew nothing about, asked the officials, sent the departmental response.
Tories would love the entire scandal to be his fault and his alone, but wishing won't be enough to save those blue wall seats. Voters are not stupid...
Are you listening to this testimony because it is nothing to do with the conservatives unless you are accusing Alan Bates of being one
And the Conservatives stood up for subpostmasters against the evil Ed Davey by ... making him a knight 5 years later, and Paula Vennells a CBE 4 years after that.
The post office scandal is nothing to do with the Conservatives. Why won't people accept that? Making Vennells a CBE was an act of charity - the poor woman needed a pick up. Instructing the PO to block, obsfucate and delay, and instructing civil servants not to pay out money? Davey - or Starmer as DPP. Thats who is to blame.
The prosecutions had nothing to do with Starmer - more than half the issue was the fact the post office did their own prosecuting
Davey had been minister for 5 minutes. Receives a letter about something he knew nothing about, asked the officials, sent the departmental response.
Tories would love the entire scandal to be his fault and his alone, but wishing won't be enough to save those blue wall seats. Voters are not stupid...
Are you listening to this testimony because it is nothing to do with the conservatives unless you are accusing Alan Bates of being one
We're talking about the initial exchange of letters in 2010 aren't we?
The Tories and their fellow travellers have been desperately trying to deflect the scandal away from them onto anyone else. For understandable reasons when you realise what they have been up to recently.
Sorry but you are just being partisan and my wife who is not political was not only astonished by the correspondence but was angry on how Davey responded to Alan Bates who she knew and was part of the community who shopped at his post office in Craig y don
I'm being partisan in calling out the Tories' partisan attack? The Tory media has been out trying to lump the entire thing on Davey whilst giving Badenoch and all the other Tory ministers an absolute free pass.
Was the Davey letter helpful? Absolutely not - as he has said repeatedly. But where is the contrition from any of the Tories? The only criticism is aimed at Davey and Starmer which is absurd as even you must agree with.
The point is it was todays testimony in the enquiry where all the correspondence between Alan Bates and Ed Davey was read out and discussed, and Davey did not come out of it well
Of course there are many other failings by politicians of all parties but today it was specifically the episode between Bates v Davey
And yet today is the day you choose to post about it, while ignoring all the earlier testimony.
Earlier today, my fellow octogenarian, Big G from N.Wales, posted that the best thing to have in one's latter years was health, and he's unquestionably right. I wish I could do the things I could do two years ago, let alone 10 or 20! And as for 50 years ago: words fail me! I often agree with Malcolm, but this time I don't. It was easier to get a house 50 years ago; the price my wife and I paid for our first house was about three times my annual salary as a pharmacist; my eldest grandson, There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.a teacher, and his wife, another teacher, who have bought not such a nice house (not such a nice area anyway) have paid five times their combined annual salaries, and it's not so far from where we used to live. It's also at least twice the price of the house, his sister lives in; in Leeds There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now. And my wife, and I, back in the day managed on my salary; she stayed at home and looked after me and the children. My grandson and his wife both need to work.
Incidentally I was mentally reminiscing about politics back in the day and came to the conclusion that we had a lot, as far as the EU is concerned, to blame General de Gaulle for. If he had not vetoed our entry into the EEC back in the early 60's we'd have been in one the ground floor, rather than playing catch up in the 70's.
One thing though OKC, it was much harder to get a mortgage back then. You had to have saved with them for years and they only gave strict limits re multiples , deposits etc. Price deifferentials are higher but I still think easier to get a house today , outside London and south east at least.
The inability to get a mortgage was one reason why house prices were so low, there wasn’t an ocean of money available to allow people to overbid and over pay for property
This is an interesting and to me compelling dissection of the UK's relative economic decline over the past 15 years and how politics fed into that decline and fed off it.
The author's priors inform the piece as with any political analysis. You may or may not agree with them but food for thought and somewhat on topic
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
Can’t believe that every single manager that’s won the Premier League has been from England myself
This season's winning manager will be from Liverpool, Manchester or north London.
Davey had been minister for 5 minutes. Receives a letter about something he knew nothing about, asked the officials, sent the departmental response.
Tories would love the entire scandal to be his fault and his alone, but wishing won't be enough to save those blue wall seats. Voters are not stupid...
Are you listening to this testimony because it is nothing to do with the conservatives unless you are accusing Alan Bates of being one
And the Conservatives stood up for subpostmasters against the evil Ed Davey by ... making him a knight 5 years later, and Paula Vennells a CBE 4 years after that.
The post office scandal is nothing to do with the Conservatives. Why won't people accept that? Making Vennells a CBE was an act of charity - the poor woman needed a pick up. Instructing the PO to block, obsfucate and delay, and instructing civil servants not to pay out money? Davey - or Starmer as DPP. Thats who is to blame.
The prosecutions had nothing to do with Starmer - more than half the issue was the fact the post office did their own prosecuting which resulted in hiding evidence in a way that no self respecting prosecutor would do
He’s angry, so defaulting to unfunny sarcasm.
Sir Keir’s only slip up here seems to have been boasting about how he took the blame for every mistake made by the CPS whilst he was in charge, then saying he couldn’t be expected to know what everyone was doing when it came to light that a couple of the Postmasters were prosecuted by the CPS on his watch
Davey had been minister for 5 minutes. Receives a letter about something he knew nothing about, asked the officials, sent the departmental response.
Tories would love the entire scandal to be his fault and his alone, but wishing won't be enough to save those blue wall seats. Voters are not stupid...
Are you listening to this testimony because it is nothing to do with the conservatives unless you are accusing Alan Bates of being one
We're talking about the initial exchange of letters in 2010 aren't we?
The Tories and their fellow travellers have been desperately trying to deflect the scandal away from them onto anyone else. For understandable reasons when you realise what they have been up to recently.
Sorry but you are just being partisan and my wife who is not political was not only astonished by the correspondence but was angry on how Davey responded to Alan Bates who she knew and was part of the community who shopped at his post office in Craig y don
I'm being partisan in calling out the Tories' partisan attack? The Tory media has been out trying to lump the entire thing on Davey whilst giving Badenoch and all the other Tory ministers an absolute free pass.
Was the Davey letter helpful? Absolutely not - as he has said repeatedly. But where is the contrition from any of the Tories? The only criticism is aimed at Davey and Starmer which is absurd as even you must agree with.
The point is it was todays testimony in the enquiry where all the correspondence between Alan Bates and Ed Davey was read out and discussed, and Davey did not come out of it well
Of course there are many other failings by politicians of all parties but today it was specifically the episode between Bates v Davey
Good, we're aligned about what today is. The 2010 letters where he had been minister for 5 minutes. The initial letter was a typical department response. The way the Tories have ramped it, he was minister for the entire scandal and that letter proves its all his fault.
This might encourage Ms Rayner to release her tax advice. If she is able to prove that she has paid any tax due, this advert would be perilously close to libel.
Well apparently the Conservatives are learning very hard that raising the issue of tax evasion and tax avoidance given the identity of the PM, the PM's wife, the Chancellor, the ex-Chancellor, numerous Con Party donors, numerous Con MPs, numerous Con Peers, at least one notable ex-Treasurer of the Con Party and amateur biographer, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, may not be the smartest idea!
Well - do your thing all you big brains at No 10. Watch what it gets you!
Davey had been minister for 5 minutes. Receives a letter about something he knew nothing about, asked the officials, sent the departmental response.
Tories would love the entire scandal to be his fault and his alone, but wishing won't be enough to save those blue wall seats. Voters are not stupid...
This might encourage Ms Rayner to release her tax advice. If she is able to prove that she has paid any tax due, this advert would be perilously close to libel.
It would be fun to have the argument about which of the two women prominently figured in this image is being libelled.
This might encourage Ms Rayner to release her tax advice. If she is able to prove that she has paid any tax due, this advert would be perilously close to libel.
Didn't work for Jimmy Carr. Tbh I'm getting bored with Raynergate. It's a good photo though.
Earlier today, my fellow octogenarian, Big G from N.Wales, posted that the best thing to have in one's latter years was health, and he's unquestionably right. I wish I could do the things I could do two years ago, let alone 10 or 20! And as for 50 years ago: words fail me! I often agree with Malcolm, but this time I don't. It was easier to get a house 50 years ago; the price my wife and I paid for our first house was about three times my annual salary as a pharmacist; my eldest grandson, There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.a teacher, and his wife, another teacher, who have bought not such a nice house (not such a nice area anyway) have paid five times their combined annual salaries, and it's not so far from where we used to live. It's also at least twice the price of the house, his sister lives in; in Leeds There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now. And my wife, and I, back in the day managed on my salary; she stayed at home and looked after me and the children. My grandson and his wife both need to work.
Incidentally I was mentally reminiscing about politics back in the day and came to the conclusion that we had a lot, as far as the EU is concerned, to blame General de Gaulle for. If he had not vetoed our entry into the EEC back in the early 60's we'd have been in one the ground floor, rather than playing catch up in the 70's.
One thing though OKC, it was much harder to get a mortgage back then. You had to have saved with them for years and they only gave strict limits re multiples , deposits etc. Price deifferentials are higher but I still think easier to get a house today , outside London and south east at least.
You need a deposit today still. Harder to get a 10% deposit when prices are 8x income than it is to get a 10% deposit when prices are 2x income.
Currently people need to save nearly a year's wages to get a deposit. Which takes many years of savings, decades for some people.
Many people think it’s time for LIZ TRUSS to gracefully return to the helm.
She was hugely popular with many PB Tories of course, and with the wider world at large.
Perhaps this time she will stage a comeback based on a greater degree of ideological purity.
It seems inevitable.
TRUSS.
I do wish you wouldn't do that. I see the word and think 'oh good, something interesting on the Baltimore bridge collapse or something'. Instead of something that's chronologically stem-high to a lettuce.
Providing Truss's recollection is correct, how immensely wise once again from HMQ.
I am still livid with her doctors for allowing her to be taken from us.
It's amazing how quickly the royal famz has gone from too big to too small. This time next year, both King Prince Charles and Everybody's Second Favourite Princess of Wales could be brown bread. Leaving us with semi-bonkers King Cueball and the Flowers-in-the-Attic kids. If he decides he's had enough and taps out then we are down to Queen Eugenie and her influencer husband. Fuck me.
No, if One Pint Willy checks out it's George VII, with Prince Edward as Regent. If OPW takes the family on a dodgy helicopter ride, then it's King Henry IX and Queen Meghan.
The line of succession is probably quite different from how one imagines it. With Lilibet 7th but Anne only 17th, and well below people no-one has heard of like August Brooksbank and Sienna Mozzi (no idea either). It goes:
1 The Prince of Wales 2. Prince George of Wales 3. Princess Charlotte of Wales 4. Prince Louis of Wales 5. The Duke of Sussex 6. Prince Archie of Sussex 7. Princess Lilibet of Sussex 8. The Duke of York 9. Princess Beatrice, Mrs. Edoardo Mapelli Mozzi 10. Miss Sienna Mapelli Mozzi 11. Princess Eugenie, Mrs. Jack Brooksbank 12. Master August Brooksbank 13. Master Ernest Brooksbank 14. The Duke of Edinburgh 15. Earl of Wessex 16. The Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor 17. The Princess Royal 18. Mr. Peter Phillips 19. Miss Savannah Phillips 20. Miss Isla Phillips 21. Mrs. Michael Tindall 22. Miss Mia Tindall 23. Miss Lena Tindall 24. Master Lucas Tindall
So Harry is still fifth in line. What would his Dad say.
Surely he should be removed from the line of succession, seeing that he officially renounced his intention to undertake royal duties.
The monarch is chosen only by God, by divine right, don't you know? The Good Lord has decreed that Hazza be the next cab on the rank should the Waleses collectively abdicate and flee to Anglesey. Meghan will be his queen, and our queen of hearts.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
I was born in Birkenhead but I haven't lived there since I was 7 years old. Would I be wrong to say I'm from where I live instead of Birkenhead?
I for a few years lived abroad on a temporary visa as a child and by coincidence my brother was born there. He's not lived there since he was one, he only has British citizenship, he has no eligibility to citizenship of the country he was born in and has lived in the UK since he was one. Would it be lying to say he is from the UK?
The person in question appears to have been born in, & lived in, Bangladesh for over twenty years then moved to the UK two or three years ago on a student visa. After he arrived he moved to Oldham, so ‘from Oldham’ doesn’t feel right really. Had your brother lived in the place he was born for 22 years before moving to Britain in 2021, it would be perfectly normal to say he was ‘from’ his birthplace
Davey had been minister for 5 minutes. Receives a letter about something he knew nothing about, asked the officials, sent the departmental response.
Tories would love the entire scandal to be his fault and his alone, but wishing won't be enough to save those blue wall seats. Voters are not stupid...
Are you listening to this testimony because it is nothing to do with the conservatives unless you are accusing Alan Bates of being one
And the Conservatives stood up for subpostmasters against the evil Ed Davey by ... making him a knight 5 years later, and Paula Vennells a CBE 4 years after that.
The post office scandal is nothing to do with the Conservatives. Why won't people accept that? Making Vennells a CBE was an act of charity - the poor woman needed a pick up. Instructing the PO to block, obsfucate and delay, and instructing civil servants not to pay out money? Davey - or Starmer as DPP. Thats who is to blame.
The prosecutions had nothing to do with Starmer - more than half the issue was the fact the post office did their own prosecuting which resulted in hiding evidence in a way that no self respecting prosecutor would do
He’s angry, so defaulting to unfunny sarcasm.
Sir Keir’s only slip up here seems to have been boasting about how he took the blame for every mistake made by the CPS whilst he was in charge, then saying he couldn’t be expected to know what everyone was doing when it came to light that a couple of the Postmasters were prosecuted by the CPS on his watch
Who is angry and about what? Bates is angry and understandably so.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
Indeed. And I imagine if you're non-white when you get asked the question in this country there's sometimes going to be a nasty taint of racism underlying it.
The taint of racism is when people say "where are you really from" meaning the place of your parents or grandparents. The place you grow up is where you are from. The place you live is... uh... where you live.
This conversation leads me to an interesting question:
If the 2016 referendum had been Cameron's renegotiation versus Johnson's deal, would leave still have won?
Would anyone on here have voted differently?
Given Johnson's deal replaced Cameron's negotiation and most people think it was a mistake, in principle the vote should have been different.
If it had been known in 2016 that we would have a trade deal with zero-tariffs and quotas, it would have neutralised project fear and Leave would have won by a bigger margin.
If it had been known in 2016 that immigration under Brexit was going to sky-rocket, it would have neutralised project immigration fear and Remain would have won by a big margin.
"The Remain campaign should have been more racist"
@williamglenn you made a powerful and, may I say, compelling case yesterday for LIZ TRUSS to return to the bridge, as captain of the good ship Britannia. I am sure many millions, both at home and abroad, will just rejoice at that news.
How do you see the process, by which our queen over the water might return to her throne? Presumably, a package of pureplay pro-growth measures, coupled with the zeal of the neobrexiteer, which you so perfectly epitomise, will be a winning strategy, not just for 2024, but for the years and decades to come?
TRUSS.
I was reflecting today on how Truss managed to achieve such incredible cut-through. While she was Prime Minister, everywhere you went, her name was on people's lips and there were enthusiastic debates about the issues of the day in the least likely places.
That level of engagement with politics is what we need so badly now. Perhaps it's time for a counter-coup against the deep state and for Truss to make a triumphant return before the election.
You put it so well. I'm certain that the idea will burgeon, rather like a snowball rolling down a slope, readily becoming an avalanche.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
If he's on a student visa, I'd say form would dictate that he's a student from Bangladesh. I studied in France - if I'd gone on a killing spree there, I highly doubt I'd have been described as 'from Nice'.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
I was born in Birkenhead but I haven't lived there since I was 7 years old. Would I be wrong to say I'm from where I live instead of Birkenhead?
I for a few years lived abroad on a temporary visa as a child and by coincidence my brother was born there. He's not lived there since he was one, he only has British citizenship, he has no eligibility to citizenship of the country he was born in and has lived in the UK since he was one. Would it be lying to say he is from the UK?
The person in question appears to have lived in Bangladesh for over twenty years then moved to the UK two or three years ago on a student visa. After he arrived he moved to Oldham, so ‘from Oldham’ doesn’t feel right really. Had your brother lived in the place he was born for 22 years before moving to Britain in 2021, it would be perfectly normal to say he was ‘from’ his birthplace
What's the dividing line between 2-3 years and 22 years. When has someone "made it".
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
I was born in Birkenhead but I haven't lived there since I was 7 years old. Would I be wrong to say I'm from where I live instead of Birkenhead?
I for a few years lived abroad on a temporary visa as a child and by coincidence my brother was born there. He's not lived there since he was one, he only has British citizenship, he has no eligibility to citizenship of the country he was born in and has lived in the UK since he was one. Would it be lying to say he is from the UK?
For those with moving childhoods this is a bit trickier - but I'd expect for instance Chris Froome to answer Nairobi rather than South Africa, and definitely not Monaco. If you're moving places over the age of about 13 though, you'll never ever be "from" there.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
Can’t believe that every single manager that’s won the Premier League has been from England myself
This season's winning manager will be from Liverpool, Manchester or north London.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
I was born in Birkenhead but I haven't lived there since I was 7 years old. Would I be wrong to say I'm from where I live instead of Birkenhead?
I for a few years lived abroad on a temporary visa as a child and by coincidence my brother was born there. He's not lived there since he was one, he only has British citizenship, he has no eligibility to citizenship of the country he was born in and has lived in the UK since he was one. Would it be lying to say he is from the UK?
The person in question appears to have lived in Bangladesh for over twenty years then moved to the UK two or three years ago on a student visa. After he arrived he moved to Oldham, so ‘from Oldham’ doesn’t feel right really. Had your brother lived in the place he was born for 22 years before moving to Britain in 2021, it would be perfectly normal to say he was ‘from’ his birthplace
What's the dividing line between 2-3 years and 22 years. When has someone "made it".
It's hard to tell what Sunak's legacy will be, because we haven't yet seen what Labour will rapidly reverse (such as cancelling HS2 to Manchester?), or what they will build upon (cutting NI instead of Income Tax?)
It's possible that in two decades time we'll be talking about the young British chess prodigy who learnt their game on one of Sunak's chessboards (have any of them been installed yet?)
My guess is that Sunak will be seen as the father of the strongest radical right movement in British history. His replacement of Liz Truss - the defeated candidate replacing the victorious candidate without a further leadership election vote - and his subsequent failure to win the argument on the right as to why that was necessary, will come to be seen as the trigger event that launched the hard right in Britain.
Sunak's legacy will be ELE. Little else will be remembered.
Landslide majorities are associated with the winner of the landslide much more than the loser - Baldwin, Attlee, Macmillan, Thatcher, Blair much more than Henderson, Churchill, Gaitskell, Foot, Major.
The one partial exception to that is Foot, and the longest suicide note in history, but it's hard to argue that Sunak will be the cause of the Tory defeat to come, rather than Truss and Johnson.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
I was born in Birkenhead but I haven't lived there since I was 7 years old. Would I be wrong to say I'm from where I live instead of Birkenhead?
I for a few years lived abroad on a temporary visa as a child and by coincidence my brother was born there. He's not lived there since he was one, he only has British citizenship, he has no eligibility to citizenship of the country he was born in and has lived in the UK since he was one. Would it be lying to say he is from the UK?
The person in question appears to have lived in Bangladesh for over twenty years then moved to the UK two or three years ago on a student visa. After he arrived he moved to Oldham, so ‘from Oldham’ doesn’t feel right really. Had your brother lived in the place he was born for 22 years before moving to Britain in 2021, it would be perfectly normal to say he was ‘from’ his birthplace
What's the dividing line between 2-3 years and 22 years. When has someone "made it".
Common sense mainly
If people need a precise figure, the majority of one's childhood is a fair rule of thumb.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
Indeed. And I imagine if you're non-white when you get asked the question in this country there's sometimes going to be a nasty taint of racism underlying it.
The taint of racism is when people say "where are you really from" meaning the place of your parents or grandparents. The place you grow up is where you are from. The place you live is... uh... where you live.
And if you grow up in various places for a few years each and then spend 20 years as an adult in a new location, are we then allowed to consider ourselves from that new place? Do we have to give a detailed bio of our childhood instead? Or pretend we are from wherever our parents were from?
It is weird that the people who complain about citizens of nowhere then also get offended when people attach their identity to a place.
Earlier today, my fellow octogenarian, Big G from N.Wales, posted that the best thing to have in one's latter years was health, and he's unquestionably right. I wish I could do the things I could do two years ago, let alone 10 or 20! And as for 50 years ago: words fail me! I often agree with Malcolm, but this time I don't. It was easier to get a house 50 years ago; the price my wife and I paid for our first house was about three times my annual salary as a pharmacist; my eldest grandson, There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.a teacher, and his wife, another teacher, who have bought not such a nice house (not such a nice area anyway) have paid five times their combined annual salaries, and it's not so far from where we used to live. It's also at least twice the price of the house, his sister lives in; in Leeds There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now. And my wife, and I, back in the day managed on my salary; she stayed at home and looked after me and the children. My grandson and his wife both need to work.
Incidentally I was mentally reminiscing about politics back in the day and came to the conclusion that we had a lot, as far as the EU is concerned, to blame General de Gaulle for. If he had not vetoed our entry into the EEC back in the early 60's we'd have been in one the ground floor, rather than playing catch up in the 70's.
One thing though OKC, it was much harder to get a mortgage back then. You had to have saved with them for years and they only gave strict limits re multiples , deposits etc. Price deifferentials are higher but I still think easier to get a house today , outside London and south east at least.
Fair points, Malc. I was turned down by the first company I went to. And yes IIRC they would only lend 2.5x salary, and any earnings from the wife were disregarded. In many areas, too, it wasn’t that difficult to get a council property.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
I was born in Birkenhead but I haven't lived there since I was 7 years old. Would I be wrong to say I'm from where I live instead of Birkenhead?
I for a few years lived abroad on a temporary visa as a child and by coincidence my brother was born there. He's not lived there since he was one, he only has British citizenship, he has no eligibility to citizenship of the country he was born in and has lived in the UK since he was one. Would it be lying to say he is from the UK?
The person in question appears to have lived in Bangladesh for over twenty years then moved to the UK two or three years ago on a student visa. After he arrived he moved to Oldham, so ‘from Oldham’ doesn’t feel right really. Had your brother lived in the place he was born for 22 years before moving to Britain in 2021, it would be perfectly normal to say he was ‘from’ his birthplace
What's the dividing line between 2-3 years and 22 years. When has someone "made it".
Common sense mainly
Common sense is utterly unreliable. As any pilot, historian, doctor, etc. could tell you.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Everyone is from where they live.
When I go to work, or go to the shops, I go from my home.
I don't go from my birthplace.
In Scotland, there is a distinction between "where are you from?" and "and where do you stay?". I am from Worcestershire but I stay in Renfrewshire.
Yes, it rather calls to mind the situation of LIZ TRUSS.
She is from Heaven; but she stays in Purgatory, until such a day when the electorate are released from their false consciousness.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
I was born in Birkenhead but I haven't lived there since I was 7 years old. Would I be wrong to say I'm from where I live instead of Birkenhead?
I for a few years lived abroad on a temporary visa as a child and by coincidence my brother was born there. He's not lived there since he was one, he only has British citizenship, he has no eligibility to citizenship of the country he was born in and has lived in the UK since he was one. Would it be lying to say he is from the UK?
The person in question appears to have lived in Bangladesh for over twenty years then moved to the UK two or three years ago on a student visa. After he arrived he moved to Oldham, so ‘from Oldham’ doesn’t feel right really. Had your brother lived in the place he was born for 22 years before moving to Britain in 2021, it would be perfectly normal to say he was ‘from’ his birthplace
What's the dividing line between 2-3 years and 22 years. When has someone "made it".
Common sense mainly
If people need a precise figure, the majority of one's childhood is a fair rule of thumb.
20 years old spent first seven years in Islamabad now lives in Tooting.
I'm trying to get a feel for this and appreciate your help.
Presumably lived all their lives in Tooting, parents from Islamabad = from Tooting.
Davey had been minister for 5 minutes. Receives a letter about something he knew nothing about, asked the officials, sent the departmental response.
Tories would love the entire scandal to be his fault and his alone, but wishing won't be enough to save those blue wall seats. Voters are not stupid...
Are you listening to this testimony because it is nothing to do with the conservatives unless you are accusing Alan Bates of being one
We're talking about the initial exchange of letters in 2010 aren't we?
The Tories and their fellow travellers have been desperately trying to deflect the scandal away from them onto anyone else. For understandable reasons when you realise what they have been up to recently.
Sorry but you are just being partisan and my wife who is not political was not only astonished by the correspondence but was angry on how Davey responded to Alan Bates who she knew and was part of the community who shopped at his post office in Craig y don
I'm being partisan in calling out the Tories' partisan attack? The Tory media has been out trying to lump the entire thing on Davey whilst giving Badenoch and all the other Tory ministers an absolute free pass.
Was the Davey letter helpful? Absolutely not - as he has said repeatedly. But where is the contrition from any of the Tories? The only criticism is aimed at Davey and Starmer which is absurd as even you must agree with.
The point is it was todays testimony in the enquiry where all the correspondence between Alan Bates and Ed Davey was read out and discussed, and Davey did not come out of it well
Of course there are many other failings by politicians of all parties but today it was specifically the episode between Bates v Davey
At least Davey’s ‘fessed up. As has Jo Swinson, AIUI.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
I was born in Birkenhead but I haven't lived there since I was 7 years old. Would I be wrong to say I'm from where I live instead of Birkenhead?
I for a few years lived abroad on a temporary visa as a child and by coincidence my brother was born there. He's not lived there since he was one, he only has British citizenship, he has no eligibility to citizenship of the country he was born in and has lived in the UK since he was one. Would it be lying to say he is from the UK?
The person in question appears to have lived in Bangladesh for over twenty years then moved to the UK two or three years ago on a student visa. After he arrived he moved to Oldham, so ‘from Oldham’ doesn’t feel right really. Had your brother lived in the place he was born for 22 years before moving to Britain in 2021, it would be perfectly normal to say he was ‘from’ his birthplace
What's the dividing line between 2-3 years and 22 years. When has someone "made it".
Common sense mainly
If people need a precise figure, the majority of one's childhood is a fair rule of thumb.
So my wife was born abroad but moved to the UK at age 18. She's a British citizen and has lived here now for decades, the majority of her life.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Everyone is from where they live.
When I go to work, or go to the shops, I go from my home.
I don't go from my birthplace.
In Scotland, there is a distinction between "where are you from?" and "and where do you stay?". I am from Worcestershire but I stay in Renfrewshire.
Where do you stand on the "this week/next week" axis?
This might encourage Ms Rayner to release her tax advice. If she is able to prove that she has paid any tax due, this advert would be perilously close to libel.
It would be fun to have the argument about which of the two women prominently figured in this image is being libelled.
The fragrant Dr Rosena also appears on the photo. I hope you are not suggesting she failed to declare all her earnings when a swimsuit model?
Davey had been minister for 5 minutes. Receives a letter about something he knew nothing about, asked the officials, sent the departmental response.
Tories would love the entire scandal to be his fault and his alone, but wishing won't be enough to save those blue wall seats. Voters are not stupid...
Are you listening to this testimony because it is nothing to do with the conservatives unless you are accusing Alan Bates of being one
We're talking about the initial exchange of letters in 2010 aren't we?
The Tories and their fellow travellers have been desperately trying to deflect the scandal away from them onto anyone else. For understandable reasons when you realise what they have been up to recently.
Sorry but you are just being partisan and my wife who is not political was not only astonished by the correspondence but was angry on how Davey responded to Alan Bates who she knew and was part of the community who shopped at his post office in Craig y don
I'm being partisan in calling out the Tories' partisan attack? The Tory media has been out trying to lump the entire thing on Davey whilst giving Badenoch and all the other Tory ministers an absolute free pass.
Was the Davey letter helpful? Absolutely not - as he has said repeatedly. But where is the contrition from any of the Tories? The only criticism is aimed at Davey and Starmer which is absurd as even you must agree with.
The point is it was todays testimony in the enquiry where all the correspondence between Alan Bates and Ed Davey was read out and discussed, and Davey did not come out of it well
Of course there are many other failings by politicians of all parties but today it was specifically the episode between Bates v Davey
Good, we're aligned about what today is. The 2010 letters where he had been minister for 5 minutes. The initial letter was a typical department response. The way the Tories have ramped it, he was minister for the entire scandal and that letter proves its all his fault.
The point is that Davey's reply to Alan Bates very detailed letter was wholly inappropriate and their subsequent meeting left Alan Bates unimpressed
It can be argued that if Davey had addressed Bates complaint with vigour maybe progress would have been made but of course Davey is one of many politicians and others who have let the SPM down over the decades
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
I was born in Birkenhead but I haven't lived there since I was 7 years old. Would I be wrong to say I'm from where I live instead of Birkenhead?
I for a few years lived abroad on a temporary visa as a child and by coincidence my brother was born there. He's not lived there since he was one, he only has British citizenship, he has no eligibility to citizenship of the country he was born in and has lived in the UK since he was one. Would it be lying to say he is from the UK?
I tend to agree. I was born in London. Moved when I was 9 and since then have lived in Surrey, then Sussex and then Surrey again and 3 years in Manchester when at Uni and a few months in Cyprus on work.
If asked where I was from now I would say Surrey because that is where I live and not London where I was born, although I might clarify that. If asked when I was in Manchester or Cyprus I would not have said either of those places because they weren't permanent enough. But generally I am from where I live permanently now.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
I was born in Birkenhead but I haven't lived there since I was 7 years old. Would I be wrong to say I'm from where I live instead of Birkenhead?
I for a few years lived abroad on a temporary visa as a child and by coincidence my brother was born there. He's not lived there since he was one, he only has British citizenship, he has no eligibility to citizenship of the country he was born in and has lived in the UK since he was one. Would it be lying to say he is from the UK?
I tend to agree. I was born in London. Moved when I was 9 and since then have lived in Surrey, then Sussex and then Surrey again and 3 years in Manchester when at Uni and a few months in Cyprus on work.
If asked where I was from now I would say Surrey because that is where I live and not London where I was born, although I might clarify that. If asked when I was in Manchester or Cyprus I would not have said either of those places because they weren't permanent enough. But generally I am from where I live permanently now.
Which is why the "where are you really from" is such an "interesting" dynamic.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
Can’t believe that every single manager that’s won the Premier League has been from England myself
This season's winning manager will be from Liverpool, Manchester or north London.
Wrong.
Klopp does not live in Liverpool.
This chat is only going one way... GUESS BORIS' WEIGHT
(Can we perhaps just agree that people can and do have multiple identities?)
Davey had been minister for 5 minutes. Receives a letter about something he knew nothing about, asked the officials, sent the departmental response.
Tories would love the entire scandal to be his fault and his alone, but wishing won't be enough to save those blue wall seats. Voters are not stupid...
Are you listening to this testimony because it is nothing to do with the conservatives unless you are accusing Alan Bates of being one
We're talking about the initial exchange of letters in 2010 aren't we?
The Tories and their fellow travellers have been desperately trying to deflect the scandal away from them onto anyone else. For understandable reasons when you realise what they have been up to recently.
Sorry but you are just being partisan and my wife who is not political was not only astonished by the correspondence but was angry on how Davey responded to Alan Bates who she knew and was part of the community who shopped at his post office in Craig y don
I'm being partisan in calling out the Tories' partisan attack? The Tory media has been out trying to lump the entire thing on Davey whilst giving Badenoch and all the other Tory ministers an absolute free pass.
Was the Davey letter helpful? Absolutely not - as he has said repeatedly. But where is the contrition from any of the Tories? The only criticism is aimed at Davey and Starmer which is absurd as even you must agree with.
The point is it was todays testimony in the enquiry where all the correspondence between Alan Bates and Ed Davey was read out and discussed, and Davey did not come out of it well
Of course there are many other failings by politicians of all parties but today it was specifically the episode between Bates v Davey
At least Davey’s ‘fessed up. As has Jo Swinson, AIUI.
One of the things to note was that just before lunch Bates attempted to make the point that he blamed the Govt Department and the Civil Servants much more than the politicians - but I'm not sure if they are ever accountable.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
I was born in Birkenhead but I haven't lived there since I was 7 years old. Would I be wrong to say I'm from where I live instead of Birkenhead?
I for a few years lived abroad on a temporary visa as a child and by coincidence my brother was born there. He's not lived there since he was one, he only has British citizenship, he has no eligibility to citizenship of the country he was born in and has lived in the UK since he was one. Would it be lying to say he is from the UK?
I think self-identification is entirely normal.
Given Mr Masum has not been found to ask, we should use a more factual form of language than "from".
One thing I don't quite understand in this case is how someone can be in the UK on a student visa for a college in Bedfordshire and yet live in Oldham. Its almost as if the course wasn't the point.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
I was born in Birkenhead but I haven't lived there since I was 7 years old. Would I be wrong to say I'm from where I live instead of Birkenhead?
I for a few years lived abroad on a temporary visa as a child and by coincidence my brother was born there. He's not lived there since he was one, he only has British citizenship, he has no eligibility to citizenship of the country he was born in and has lived in the UK since he was one. Would it be lying to say he is from the UK?
I tend to agree. I was born in London. Moved when I was 9 and since then have lived in Surrey, then Sussex and then Surrey again and 3 years in Manchester when at Uni and a few months in Cyprus on work.
If asked where I was from now I would say Surrey because that is where I live and not London where I was born, although I might clarify that. If asked when I was in Manchester or Cyprus I would not have said either of those places because they weren't permanent enough. But generally I am from where I live permanently now.
Yes I think the degree of permanence can play a role.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
I was born in Birkenhead but I haven't lived there since I was 7 years old. Would I be wrong to say I'm from where I live instead of Birkenhead?
I for a few years lived abroad on a temporary visa as a child and by coincidence my brother was born there. He's not lived there since he was one, he only has British citizenship, he has no eligibility to citizenship of the country he was born in and has lived in the UK since he was one. Would it be lying to say he is from the UK?
The person in question appears to have lived in Bangladesh for over twenty years then moved to the UK two or three years ago on a student visa. After he arrived he moved to Oldham, so ‘from Oldham’ doesn’t feel right really. Had your brother lived in the place he was born for 22 years before moving to Britain in 2021, it would be perfectly normal to say he was ‘from’ his birthplace
What's the dividing line between 2-3 years and 22 years. When has someone "made it".
Common sense mainly
What's interesting is that there's no attempt to conceal the ethnic identity of this person - the concealment (if deliberate) is of his recent arrival. That feels like its being done so as to damoen down immigration as an electoral issue.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
What do you say when an American you bump into on holiday in Europe asks you?
Coventry. Near Birmingham. About a hundred miles from London...
I don't deny it's a valid answer but it's not how I would answer; in your position I would say Sheffield.
I acknowledge your answer is valid, please also accept that many would choose my approach.
(PS Coventry would need no qualifier, shirley? Indeed, with that qualifier, said American is likely to think you're from Alabama.)
You reckon? In my experience, London, Manchester and (sometimes) Birmingham are the only big English cities known by many Americans. Most have heard of Nottingham (Robin Hood don't you know!) but many possibly think it's a forest rather than an actual city.
Edit: Liverpool has decent name recognition too TBF.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
What do you say when an American you bump into on holiday in Europe asks you?
On my recent cruise if asked by a fellow Brit I would say Huddersfield, if by a non-Brit I would say Yorkshire. If the non-Brit was Australian I would add "you know the place which won more Olympic gold medals than Australia."
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
I was born in Birkenhead but I haven't lived there since I was 7 years old. Would I be wrong to say I'm from where I live instead of Birkenhead?
I for a few years lived abroad on a temporary visa as a child and by coincidence my brother was born there. He's not lived there since he was one, he only has British citizenship, he has no eligibility to citizenship of the country he was born in and has lived in the UK since he was one. Would it be lying to say he is from the UK?
I tend to agree. I was born in London. Moved when I was 9 and since then have lived in Surrey, then Sussex and then Surrey again and 3 years in Manchester when at Uni and a few months in Cyprus on work.
If asked where I was from now I would say Surrey because that is where I live and not London where I was born, although I might clarify that. If asked when I was in Manchester or Cyprus I would not have said either of those places because they weren't permanent enough. But generally I am from where I live permanently now.
My mother went to a Nursing Home near her family home a few days before I was born and went to the place where she lived with my father a couple of weeks later. The two places were 50 miles apart.
Davey had been minister for 5 minutes. Receives a letter about something he knew nothing about, asked the officials, sent the departmental response.
Tories would love the entire scandal to be his fault and his alone, but wishing won't be enough to save those blue wall seats. Voters are not stupid...
Are you listening to this testimony because it is nothing to do with the conservatives unless you are accusing Alan Bates of being one
We're talking about the initial exchange of letters in 2010 aren't we?
The Tories and their fellow travellers have been desperately trying to deflect the scandal away from them onto anyone else. For understandable reasons when you realise what they have been up to recently.
Sorry but you are just being partisan and my wife who is not political was not only astonished by the correspondence but was angry on how Davey responded to Alan Bates who she knew and was part of the community who shopped at his post office in Craig y don
I'm being partisan in calling out the Tories' partisan attack? The Tory media has been out trying to lump the entire thing on Davey whilst giving Badenoch and all the other Tory ministers an absolute free pass.
Was the Davey letter helpful? Absolutely not - as he has said repeatedly. But where is the contrition from any of the Tories? The only criticism is aimed at Davey and Starmer which is absurd as even you must agree with.
The point is it was todays testimony in the enquiry where all the correspondence between Alan Bates and Ed Davey was read out and discussed, and Davey did not come out of it well
Of course there are many other failings by politicians of all parties but today it was specifically the episode between Bates v Davey
At least Davey’s ‘fessed up. As has Jo Swinson, AIUI.
Outright disinformation from the BBC. Habibur Masum is not 'from Oldham'. He is a Bangladeshi national who entered the UK on a student visa a couple of years ago.
It's just a false statement. It's obviously not true that everyone is "from" where they currently live. (I'm certainly not, for example.) The BBC is just dishing out Enoch dust. Other parts of the Tory gutter press do the same.
Come off it, this is just down to the vagaries of the English language (and indeed any other language probably).
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Hmm I've always taken it to mean the latter. "Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Why would it mean the latter?
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
??? Of course it means the latter. I've lived in or near Sheffield for about 15 years but I'm certainly not "from" here. I'd be interested to see polling on this, I think my and @isam take on it would hold sway. The way the BBC article is written makes it sound like he was born in Oldham.
I was born in Birkenhead but I haven't lived there since I was 7 years old. Would I be wrong to say I'm from where I live instead of Birkenhead?
I for a few years lived abroad on a temporary visa as a child and by coincidence my brother was born there. He's not lived there since he was one, he only has British citizenship, he has no eligibility to citizenship of the country he was born in and has lived in the UK since he was one. Would it be lying to say he is from the UK?
The person in question appears to have lived in Bangladesh for over twenty years then moved to the UK two or three years ago on a student visa. After he arrived he moved to Oldham, so ‘from Oldham’ doesn’t feel right really. Had your brother lived in the place he was born for 22 years before moving to Britain in 2021, it would be perfectly normal to say he was ‘from’ his birthplace
What's the dividing line between 2-3 years and 22 years. When has someone "made it".
Common sense mainly
What's interesting is that there's no attempt to conceal the ethnic identity of this person - the concealment (if deliberate) is of his recent arrival. That feels like its being done so as to damoen down immigration as an electoral issue.
Also, the people claiming he is accurately "from" Oldham are the same people that claim student immigration isn't really immigration, because they are due to go home after three years.
Comments
Not if you’re Angela Rayner
Small mercies and all
OTOH I actively want to see speeding Henry out.
Same should happen with any alternative minimum I think. Pension contributions reduce taxable income, since it's not taken as income at all and will be taxed when taken instead, but all income then is taxed at same percentage.
'Where are you from' can mean 'where do you live' or 'where do you originate from'. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
Tories would love the entire scandal to be his fault and his alone, but wishing won't be enough to save those blue wall seats. Voters are not stupid...
I am from Worcestershire but I stay in Renfrewshire.
"Court documents show Mr Masum, who lives in Oldham, Greater Manchester," would be correct, but he's not "from Oldham".
Employers have a budget to operate within for their labour, this is not an indirect tax it is a direct tax on wages, so reduces wages proportionately.
Anyone who claims this isn't a direct tax on wages, is delusional or lying.
The Tories and their fellow travellers have been desperately trying to deflect the scandal away from them onto anyone else. For understandable reasons when you realise what they have been up to recently.
When I'm in our local supermarket if I got asked where I was from, I'd probably say 'Sussex originally'.
It's all about context with a big overlap on what the best answer might be. Worth noting too that the first example above is pretty common the second is fairly rare - so I'm most likely to be answering where I live, rather than where I was born or raised.
There's a reason why people can and do say "originally from".
There's a blood and soil racism to the implication that people are only from their birthplace.
https://x.com/conservatives/status/1777668888060149874?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68769669
Edit: https://www.forbes.com/sites/shereeatcheson/2022/12/02/where-are-you-really-from-not-so-subtle-racism-in-a-nutshell/?sh=3e6ad0606b80
To repeat.
Was the Davey letter helpful? Absolutely not - as he has said repeatedly. But where is the contrition from any of the Tories? The only criticism is aimed at Davey and Starmer which is absurd as even you must agree with.
Though maybe that's because I'm actually from the other side of the Pennines.
#mixedmarriage
It takes a bold chancellor to remove tax fiddles.
I recall one PB’r who was screaming when Osborne killed a bunch of bullshit to do with using “investing” in British films as a tax break.
It's possible that in two decades time we'll be talking about the young British chess prodigy who learnt their game on one of Sunak's chessboards (have any of them been installed yet?)
My guess is that Sunak will be seen as the father of the strongest radical right movement in British history. His replacement of Liz Truss - the defeated candidate replacing the victorious candidate without a further leadership election vote - and his subsequent failure to win the argument on the right as to why that was necessary, will come to be seen as the trigger event that launched the hard right in Britain.
I acknowledge your answer is valid, please also accept that many would choose my approach.
(PS Coventry would need no qualifier, shirley? Indeed, with that qualifier, said American is likely to think you're from Alabama.)
You can be of Bangladeshi descent and ‘from Oldham’ if you were born in Oldham, or even spent the majority of your childhood in Oldham, but not really if you’re a 25yo who moved to the UK this decade from Bangladesh
I think 10 years in a single city or county feels like a rough threshold for "from".
Of course there are many other failings by politicians of all parties but today it was specifically the episode between Bates v Davey
I for a few years lived abroad on a temporary visa as a child and by coincidence my brother was born there. He's not lived there since he was one, he only has British citizenship, he has no eligibility to citizenship of the country he was born in and has lived in the UK since he was one. Would it be lying to say he is from the UK?
The author's priors inform the piece as with any political analysis. You may or may not agree with them but food for thought and somewhat on topic
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2024/04/the-anatomy-and-reasons-for-uk-relative.html
Sir Keir’s only slip up here seems to have been boasting about how he took the blame for every mistake made by the CPS whilst he was in charge, then saying he couldn’t be expected to know what everyone was doing when it came to light that a couple of the Postmasters were prosecuted by the CPS on his watch
Well - do your thing all you big brains at No 10. Watch what it gets you!
Currently people need to save nearly a year's wages to get a deposit. Which takes many years of savings, decades for some people.
TRUSS
Klopp does not live in Liverpool.
The one partial exception to that is Foot, and the longest suicide note in history, but it's hard to argue that Sunak will be the cause of the Tory defeat to come, rather than Truss and Johnson.
It is weird that the people who complain about citizens of nowhere then also get offended when people attach their identity to a place.
In many areas, too, it wasn’t that difficult to get a council property.
She is from Heaven; but she stays in Purgatory, until such a day when the electorate are released from their false consciousness.
I'm trying to get a feel for this and appreciate your help.
Presumably lived all their lives in Tooting, parents from Islamabad = from Tooting.
But she'll never be from England in your eyes?
It can be argued that if Davey had addressed Bates complaint with vigour maybe progress would have been made but of course Davey is one of many politicians and others who have let the SPM down over the decades
If asked where I was from now I would say Surrey because that is where I live and not London where I was born, although I might clarify that. If asked when I was in Manchester or Cyprus I would not have said either of those places because they weren't permanent enough. But generally I am from where I live permanently now.
(Can we perhaps just agree that people can and do have multiple identities?)
Given Mr Masum has not been found to ask, we should use a more factual form of language than "from".
One thing I don't quite understand in this case is how someone can be in the UK on a student visa for a college in Bedfordshire and yet live in Oldham. Its almost as if the course wasn't the point.
Edit: Liverpool has decent name recognition too TBF.
The two places were 50 miles apart.