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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Reconsidering the case for George Osborne as next Tory lead

SystemSystem Posts: 12,214
edited March 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Reconsidering the case for George Osborne as next Tory leader

Until now I’ve always discounted George Osborne as Cameron’s successor. He generally polls badly and has nothing of the charisma or presence of a Boris or a Dave.

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Comments

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,461
    You heard it here First!: Boris will never be PM, for the many and manifest reasons given previously.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    I have not noted this previously but :

    George Osborne will never be Prime Minister
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,461
    JackW said:

    I have not noted this previously but :

    George Osborne will never be Prime Minister

    Neither Osborne or Boris will be leader. Besides, I have not seen convincing evidence that Osborne *wants* to be PM, or that he's trying to build up the sort of backing from fellow MPs that he'd need.

    After the years of Brown at the treasury, that's quite a welcome relief.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited March 2014
    It's hard to see Osborne getting the job after a Cameron defeat. It's all very well saying, "look what a successful chancellor I was", but his government... lost. And all kinds of the flaws people will be diagnosing in Cameron as the cause of the defeat will directly implicate Osborne as well.

    Where Osborne looks plausible is as an in-office successor to Cameron. The person who takes over while still in government doesn't have to be particularly charismatic. John Major, Al Gore, George H W Bush, Gordon Brown - they're all insider technocrats. Osborne can build up a machine while still in office - the Chancellor spot is a great place to reward friends and smite rivals - but he needs to be in government when the succession comes.

    That makes Osborne a very strong contender if Cameron hangs on to power, which makes 15/1 sound pretty good, except that if it pays out it probably won't be for at least 5 years...
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    This has long been one of my secret ideas. My only regret is that he never went all that long in the betting.

    However, he stands a much better chance if David Cameron leaves vaguely of his own free will than if Mr Cameron is defenestrated. The two are too closely linked for George Osborne to be a change candidate.
  • woody662woody662 Posts: 255
    There is no doubt at all that Osborne wants to be leader. His whole operation is identical to Gordon Brown. My head says 15 is a massive price based on the personal following he has built up. My heart says no because for the party to have a chance of a majority, we need a break from public school posh leaders.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I cannot see that Boris will be leader either. He was in parliament before and was not a successful MP during that period. He has more charm and popular touch than Cameron, but has even less work ethic. He does not differ from Dave on policy, except being more pro-immigration, hardly likely to win back the Kippers. His colourful remarks and personal life would also be a liability as leader.

    He would be an excellent party chairman and would draw huge crowds to fundraisers on the rubber chicken circuit in the provinces.

    If Boris has any sense he should stick to being London mayor and media personality. I am not sure why he is so offended by being asked to stand as an MP, but it does whiff of an ego battle more than anything else.
    JackW said:

    I have not noted this previously but :

    George Osborne will never be Prime Minister

  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    edited March 2014
    This:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/17/george-osborne-approach-scotland-currency-union

    ... is going to be problematic for Osborne after 19 September if the result is Yes.

    If it is a No then both Cameron and Osborne are going to be smelling of roses. They have both taken huge risks during the IndyRef campaign, and a No would be an immense personal boost for both of them.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,461
    woody662 said:

    There is no doubt at all that Osborne wants to be leader. His whole operation is identical to Gordon Brown. My head says 15 is a massive price based on the personal following he has built up. My heart says no because for the party to have a chance of a majority, we need a break from public school posh leaders.

    "There is no doubt at all that Osborne wants to be leader."

    Well, I doubt it, and therefore your statement is factually inaccurate. ;-)

    As for his operation being identical to Gordon Brown? How? The Labour Party was riven between Blairites, and Brownites for over ten years, a situation that was only resolved by a purge of the former. I see no real indication of Osborne purposefully stabbing Cameron in the back, as the Brownite thugs repeatedly did. And they were thugs, and Labour MPs sickeningly crowned the chief thug as PM.

    The Conservatives have a split on Europe, but it would be hard to put a cigarette paper between Osborne and Cameron on that issue.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited March 2014

    It's hard to see Osborne getting the job after a Cameron defeat. It's all very well saying, "look what a successful chancellor I was", but his government... lost. And all kinds of the flaws people will be diagnosing in Cameron as the cause of the defeat will directly implicate Osborne as well.

    Where Osborne looks plausible is as an in-office successor to Cameron. The person who takes over while still in government doesn't have to be particularly charismatic. John Major, Al Gore, George H W Bush, Gordon Brown - they're all insider technocrats. Osborne can build up a machine while still in office - the Chancellor spot is a great place to reward friends and smite rivals - but he needs to be in government when the succession comes.

    That makes Osborne a very strong contender if Cameron hangs on to power, which makes 15/1 sound pretty good, except that if it pays out it probably won't be for at least 5 years...

    I think you're being unfair to George HW. After all he won 3 nationwide US elections and if it hadn't been for Ross Perot's spoiler, would have likely been re-elected.

    (As a counter factual aside: no Perot, no Clinton 1, 2, 3, or 4. Possibly no George W either. )

    I still think Jeb's boy is the one to watch.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Charles said:

    It's hard to see Osborne getting the job after a Cameron defeat. It's all very well saying, "look what a successful chancellor I was", but his government... lost. And all kinds of the flaws people will be diagnosing in Cameron as the cause of the defeat will directly implicate Osborne as well.

    Where Osborne looks plausible is as an in-office successor to Cameron. The person who takes over while still in government doesn't have to be particularly charismatic. John Major, Al Gore, George H W Bush, Gordon Brown - they're all insider technocrats. Osborne can build up a machine while still in office - the Chancellor spot is a great place to reward friends and smite rivals - but he needs to be in government when the succession comes.

    That makes Osborne a very strong contender if Cameron hangs on to power, which makes 15/1 sound pretty good, except that if it pays out it probably won't be for at least 5 years...

    I think you're being unfair to George HW. After all he won 3 nationwide US elections and if it hadn't been for Ross Perot's spoiler, would have likely been re-elected.

    (As a counter factual aside: no Perot, no Clinton 1, 2, 3, or 4. Possibly no George W either. )

    I still think Jeb's boy is the one to watch.
    I'm not saying they were crap, I'm saying they were uncharismatic.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    It's hard to see Osborne getting the job after a Cameron defeat. It's all very well saying, "look what a successful chancellor I was", but his government... lost. And all kinds of the flaws people will be diagnosing in Cameron as the cause of the defeat will directly implicate Osborne as well.

    Where Osborne looks plausible is as an in-office successor to Cameron. The person who takes over while still in government doesn't have to be particularly charismatic. John Major, Al Gore, George H W Bush, Gordon Brown - they're all insider technocrats. Osborne can build up a machine while still in office - the Chancellor spot is a great place to reward friends and smite rivals - but he needs to be in government when the succession comes.

    That makes Osborne a very strong contender if Cameron hangs on to power, which makes 15/1 sound pretty good, except that if it pays out it probably won't be for at least 5 years...

    I think you're being unfair to George HW. After all he won 3 nationwide US elections and if it hadn't been for Ross Perot's spoiler, would have likely been re-elected.

    (As a counter factual aside: no Perot, no Clinton 1, 2, 3, or 4. Possibly no George W either. )

    I still think Jeb's boy is the one to watch.
    I'm not saying they were crap, I'm saying they were uncharismatic.
    And I'd argue that someone who won multiple state wide elections in Texas and then 3 national elections has something about him that the voters like.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    It will not be problematic for Osbourne, it will be an easy "no" to currency union. The problem would be Scotlands.

    Cybernats are always saying that those south of the border do not understand Scottish politics, but the converse is even more true.

    The response to a yes vote in England would be: You have made your choice; now go forth and multiply.

    This:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/17/george-osborne-approach-scotland-currency-union

    ... is going to be problematic for Osborne after 19 September if the result is Yes.

    If it is a No then both Cameron and Osborne are going to be smelling of roses. They have both taken huge risks during the IndyRef campaign, and a No would be an immense personal boost for both of them.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704
    edited March 2014
    Whoever the next Tory leader is, they won’t be PM!

    Interesting thought upthread though; will a NO vote in Scotland mean that Cameron is the man who “saved the Union”? I don’t think the results of the referenda in Canada has ever had a discernible effect on the position of the Federal Premier, though.

    Although I’m sure someone here knows better!
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557

    It's hard to see Osborne getting the job after a Cameron defeat. It's all very well saying, "look what a successful chancellor I was", but his government... lost. And all kinds of the flaws people will be diagnosing in Cameron as the cause of the defeat will directly implicate Osborne as well.

    Where Osborne looks plausible is as an in-office successor to Cameron. The person who takes over while still in government doesn't have to be particularly charismatic. John Major, Al Gore, George H W Bush, Gordon Brown - they're all insider technocrats. Osborne can build up a machine while still in office - the Chancellor spot is a great place to reward friends and smite rivals - but he needs to be in government when the succession comes.

    That makes Osborne a very strong contender if Cameron hangs on to power, which makes 15/1 sound pretty good, except that if it pays out it probably won't be for at least 5 years...

    All good points.

    However, I'd just point out that John Major was about the 10th annointed successor to Maggie Thatcher. The other 9 all blew up before the ever-moving finish line was ever reached. Eg. anybody remember this bloke?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Moore,_Baron_Moore_of_Lower_Marsh

    Nope? Thought not. Well, he was once the next prime minister of the United Kingdom.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,461

    It's hard to see Osborne getting the job after a Cameron defeat. It's all very well saying, "look what a successful chancellor I was", but his government... lost. And all kinds of the flaws people will be diagnosing in Cameron as the cause of the defeat will directly implicate Osborne as well.

    Where Osborne looks plausible is as an in-office successor to Cameron. The person who takes over while still in government doesn't have to be particularly charismatic. John Major, Al Gore, George H W Bush, Gordon Brown - they're all insider technocrats. Osborne can build up a machine while still in office - the Chancellor spot is a great place to reward friends and smite rivals - but he needs to be in government when the succession comes.

    That makes Osborne a very strong contender if Cameron hangs on to power, which makes 15/1 sound pretty good, except that if it pays out it probably won't be for at least 5 years...

    All good points.

    However, I'd just point out that John Major was about the 10th annointed successor to Maggie Thatcher. The other 9 all blew up before the ever-moving finish line was ever reached. Eg. anybody remember this bloke?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Moore,_Baron_Moore_of_Lower_Marsh

    Nope? Thought not. Well, he was once the next prime minister of the United Kingdom.
    One of many ministers to find the health brief poisonous. If I wanted to be a future PM, I would give health a very wide berth. There be Dragons.
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    Never trust an Al-Beeb journalist commenting on "great" Chancellors: My task for today is to find an on-line docu' about Neville Chamberlain produced by the fawns in the late 'Naughties.
    He served as both chancellor of the exchequer (1923 - 1924) and minister of health (1923, 1924 -1929, 1931). In 1937, he succeeded Stanley Baldwin as prime minister.
    If I can find it then I can link how NC was compared as a great Chancellor (along-side and compared to the "Gormless McBruin"). Mentally-challenged journalists who cannot see the "elephant-in-the-room"; what a surprise....
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    'Scottish Labour to back welfare devolution'
    ... Senior party sources say the package of powers amounts to a new era of devolution, giving Holyrood the ability to protect Scotland from the “worst ­excesses” of future Conservative governments at West­minster.

    ... Crucially, it is now likely to include the power to vary the rate of income tax for each individual tax band.

    ... Under Labour’s new plan, housing benefit and the UK government’s Work Programme would all become Holyrood responsibilities.

    This would allow Holyrood to scrap the bedroom tax...

    ... there is still internal party debate on whether attendance allowance – the money paid to disabled or infirm OAPs – will be part of the package.

    Other powers likely to be devolved include aspects of employment law, mainly around tribunals...

    Other powers under discussion are devolving the Crown Estates beyond Holyrood to local communities, and giving the Scottish Parliament more control over elections.

    ... The blueprint for the next stage of devolution will also see Labour go it alone and decline to discuss a compromise package with the Tories and Lib Dems.

    A Labour source said: “We have had enough of sharing platforms with Tories and Lib Dems with this [independence] referendum.”
    http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-labour-to-back-welfare-devolution-1-3325091
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    The result of a No vote would not make Cameron or Osborne the man who saved the union.

    The only people who could claim that accolade would be the wise people of the Scottish electorate.

    Whoever the next Tory leader is, they won’t be PM!

    Interesting thought upthread though; will a NO vote in Scotland mean that Cameron is the man who “saved the Union”? I don’t think the results of the referenda in Canada has ever had a discernible effect on the position of the Federal Premier, though.

    Although I’m sure someone here knows better!

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    It's hard to see Osborne getting the job after a Cameron defeat. It's all very well saying, "look what a successful chancellor I was", but his government... lost. And all kinds of the flaws people will be diagnosing in Cameron as the cause of the defeat will directly implicate Osborne as well.

    Where Osborne looks plausible is as an in-office successor to Cameron. The person who takes over while still in government doesn't have to be particularly charismatic. John Major, Al Gore, George H W Bush, Gordon Brown - they're all insider technocrats. Osborne can build up a machine while still in office - the Chancellor spot is a great place to reward friends and smite rivals - but he needs to be in government when the succession comes.

    That makes Osborne a very strong contender if Cameron hangs on to power, which makes 15/1 sound pretty good, except that if it pays out it probably won't be for at least 5 years...

    I think you're being unfair to George HW. After all he won 3 nationwide US elections and if it hadn't been for Ross Perot's spoiler, would have likely been re-elected.

    (As a counter factual aside: no Perot, no Clinton 1, 2, 3, or 4. Possibly no George W either. )

    I still think Jeb's boy is the one to watch.
    I'm not saying they were crap, I'm saying they were uncharismatic.
    And I'd argue that someone who won multiple state wide elections in Texas and then 3 national elections has something about him that the voters like.
    Quite possibly, but that something wasn't charisma.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Is this the sort of thing you have in mind? Osborne and Chamberlain compared?

    Never trust an Al-Beeb journalist commenting on "great" Chancellors: My task for today is to find an on-line docu' about Neville Chamberlain produced by the fawns in the late 'Naughties.

    He served as both chancellor of the exchequer (1923 - 1924) and minister of health (1923, 1924 -1929, 1931). In 1937, he succeeded Stanley Baldwin as prime minister.
    If I can find it then I can link how NC was compared as a great Chancellor (along-side and compared to the "Gormless McBruin"). Mentally-challenged journalists who cannot see the "elephant-in-the-room"; what a surprise....

  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    edited March 2014

    Eg. anybody remember this bloke?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Moore,_Baron_Moore_of_Lower_Marsh

    Nope? Thought not.

    Turnip-boy: Use grown-ups discussed this years ago. Ask Junior to search the archives....

  • The trouble with lefties, Foxy, is that we aren't prepared to make seriously rich men richer. This applies as much to journalists as it does to nurses and bishops. Why Tories like you still think we should nevertheless have votes is something I can't understand. Although I did once have a drinking companion who was a libertarian of sorts and who did think that public sector workers shouldn't be allowed to vote.
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    Youtube account terminated due to....
    Flying Nokias...?

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    The trouble with lefties, Foxy, is that we aren't prepared to make seriously rich men richer.

    Unless they are senior figures in the ruling party of the left, in which case they "are incredibly relaxed about people being filthy rich"
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited March 2014

    The trouble with lefties, Foxy, is that we aren't prepared to make seriously rich men richer. This applies as much to journalists as it does to nurses and bishops. Why Tories like you still think we should nevertheless have votes is something I can't understand. Although I did once have a drinking companion who was a libertarian of sorts and who did think that public sector workers shouldn't be allowed to vote.


    Utter Bollocks, there as as many rich Tories as there are champagne Socialists. The difference is that champagne Socialists like Miliband like to preach and tell us how it should be whilst not being affected in any way by the misery they force on others. The coffee saga is only the beginning of the nightmare Labour would enact
    If I want a free cup of Coffee at Waitrose, MIliband and his cronies can F off, Its none of their ffing business.
    How many of the rich Labour donors did well out of supporting Labour one wonders.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,951
    edited March 2014
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: Mercedes delayed. Their gearbox seems a bit fragile.

    Comrade Root, under the wise helmsmanship of Chairman Miliband, the People's Communal Market of Goods will supply you with all your coffee needs! Do not succumb to the vile temptations of the capitalist pigdogs of Waitrose! The so-called 'free' coffee is merely there to lure you into bourgeois decadence.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,704
    Osborne has appeared to be raising his profile lately. Hitherto quite happy to live in the shadows.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714

    BBC Wales's Tomos Livingstone reports that Aberavon shortlist is

    Parmjit Dhanda (former Gloucester MP)
    Gavin Freeguard (former SpAd to Harriet)
    Mark Fisher (UNISON officer Neath/Port Talbot Branch Local Government; Neath town councillor)
    Stephen Kinnock http://www.stephenkinnock.co.uk/
    Jeremy Miles (solicitor from Swansea, stood in Beaconsfield in 2010)
    Suzanne Paddison (local Cllr)
    Sarah Woodall (from Cambridge)

    A very long shortlist. I think Miles was the one with the highest number of male nominations from ward branches (7 out of 16 wards).
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @patrickwintour: Ukip conference ends in feud over millionaire donor's delay in paying up http://t.co/VcWFxNJ77E via @guardian
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    'No boss: Unionist parties can't agree on more powers'
    - The "fence-sitting period" is well and truly over, declares Blair McDougall.
    ... not even long-term Labour campaigner McDougall can hide the fact the parties in Better Together haven't managed to agree a common offer of more powers for devolution.

    It's something the polls say voters want, but after setting up three commissions to chew over the issue, the parties have failed to agree a plan, allowing the SNP to claim a No vote would halt devolution.

    McDougall only says there will be "overlaps" between the positions.

    ... His critics say it's a tacit admission that Better Together is losing undecided voters to Yes, but McDougall genuinely doesn't look jumpy.

    "I think we will win, and I think we will win well," he says confidently.

    He's either in possession of secret knowledge or a very good actor.
    http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/no-boss-unionist-parties-cant-agree-on-more-powers.23568841
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    This:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/17/george-osborne-approach-scotland-currency-union

    ... is going to be problematic for Osborne after 19 September if the result is Yes.

    If it is a No then both Cameron and Osborne are going to be smelling of roses. They have both taken huge risks during the IndyRef campaign, and a No would be an immense personal boost for both of them.

    Worse for Ed - 53 non Con Mps out of the equation AND he did not contribute to the Indy ref campaign .
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Wilson, Thatcher and Blair were succeeded by men who had served as Chancellor under them. Heath, Callaghan, Major and Brown were not. Notice a pattern?
  • Osborne as leader? Scenario 1, Tories lose in 2015 with voters very clear they are rejecting sneering Tories making them poorer. Osborne also sneers, is directly responsible for economic policy, no chance as leader. Scenario 2, Tories win in 2015 and the renegotiation with the EU produces the massive win of an extra lollipop. Cameron is ousted and Yerpsceptics demand one of their own to pull the UK out, so no chance for Osborne as leader. Scenario 3, Dave decides to retire as PM 18 months before the 2020 election to give his successor time to build a winning platform. Osborne throwns his name in but having made the lives of so many ministers hard with budget cuts he can't get anywhere near enough votes and is eliminated in the first round.

    There is more chance of Boris as leader than Osborne.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    The trouble with lefties, Foxy, is that we aren't prepared to make seriously rich men richer. This applies as much to journalists as it does to nurses and bishops. Why Tories like you still think we should nevertheless have votes is something I can't understand. Although I did once have a drinking companion who was a libertarian of sorts and who did think that public sector workers shouldn't be allowed to vote.


    Utter Bollocks, there as as many rich Tories as there are champagne Socialists. The difference is that champagne Socialists like Miliband like to preach and tell us how it should be whilst not being affected in any way by the misery they force on others. The coffee saga is only the beginning of the nightmare Labour would enact
    If I want a free cup of Coffee at Waitrose, MIliband and his cronies can F off, Its none of their ffing business.
    How many of the rich Labour donors did well out of supporting Labour one wonders.
    The Costa giving crisis.

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,147

    It will not be problematic for Osbourne, it will be an easy "no" to currency union. The problem would be Scotlands.

    Cybernats are always saying that those south of the border do not understand Scottish politics, but the converse is even more true.

    The response to a yes vote in England would be: You have made your choice; now go forth and multiply.


    This:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/17/george-osborne-approach-scotland-currency-union

    ... is going to be problematic for Osborne after 19 September if the result is Yes.

    If it is a No then both Cameron and Osborne are going to be smelling of roses. They have both taken huge risks during the IndyRef campaign, and a No would be an immense personal boost for both of them.

    Ah, the southron attitude in a nutshell; the Scots are wise people if they vote No, and they can **** off if they vote Yes.
    Btw, most 'Cybernats' know enough about politics south of the border to be able to spell the chancellor's name correctly.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,704
    antifrank said:

    Wilson, Thatcher and Blair were succeeded by men who had served as Chancellor under them. Heath, Callaghan, Major and Brown were not. Notice a pattern?

    Macmillan, the exception that proves the rule.
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    TGOHF said:

    This:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/17/george-osborne-approach-scotland-currency-union

    ... is going to be problematic for Osborne after 19 September if the result is Yes.

    If it is a No then both Cameron and Osborne are going to be smelling of roses. They have both taken huge risks during the IndyRef campaign, and a No would be an immense personal boost for both of them.

    Worse for Ed - 53 non Con Mps out of the equation AND he did not contribute to the Indy ref campaign .
    Ed Miliband is not the only no-show. There are lots of senior players yet to make their IndyRef debut.

    Where is Charlie Kennedy for example? Or Margaret Curran? Or Jim Murphy?

    I'm beginning to wonder if a lot of key Unionist players are going to just sit on the sidelines and watch where this is going before jumping.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    FPT
    AveryLP said:

    I have always expected Russia under Putin to use its forces to intervene in the Ukraine, but have been surprised at the speed with which Putin is moving (probably faster than the capabilities of his military but Y0kel is a better source for that assessment).

    I don't see much fighting taking place. Maybe a few token skirmishes, but there will be no contested war.

    Once Putin has realised his military objectives he will recover diplomatic ground lost by being entirely reasonable in negotiating with the international community. From Putin's point of view, Russia has to maximise its negotiating power by first optimising his negotiating strength.

    Possession of territory and frustrating the development of the new Ukrainian government's relationships with the West is all.

    The problem of taking a hard line with Russia and Putin on the Ukraine is that once he is in we will want him out, which means offering concessions to induce withdrawal.

    The West should have stood back and waited.

    "faster than the capabilities of his military"

    I've been picturing Putin decisively moving little flags on a map and his military bods standing round looking sheepish cos all their tanks are at the dry cleaners.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Nigel Farage on Beeb Marr shortly.
  • OGH says, "One bookie has him at 15/1 for the leadership. Looks a good bet."

    You've provoked this occasional poster here with that comment. Though he fancies his chances, Osborne would win little support from grassroots and therefore has no chance.
  • Square Root [8.39am] I don't want to upset you, but the Labour Party hasn't been socialist in government since about 1976. And most socialists (admittedly an endangered species nowadays) wouldn't touch Labour membership with a bargepole. How do you tell a hard-line Tory? By their use of the S-word!
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557

    It will not be problematic for Osbourne, it will be an easy "no" to currency union. The problem would be Scotlands.

    Cybernats are always saying that those south of the border do not understand Scottish politics, but the converse is even more true.

    The response to a yes vote in England would be: You have made your choice; now go forth and multiply.


    This:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/17/george-osborne-approach-scotland-currency-union

    ... is going to be problematic for Osborne after 19 September if the result is Yes.

    If it is a No then both Cameron and Osborne are going to be smelling of roses. They have both taken huge risks during the IndyRef campaign, and a No would be an immense personal boost for both of them.

    Ah, the southron attitude in a nutshell; the Scots are wise people if they vote No, and they can **** off if they vote Yes.
    Btw, most 'Cybernats' know enough about politics south of the border to be able to spell the chancellor's name correctly.

    It is attitudes like those expressed by foxinsoxuk that got the Union into trouble in the first place. If they'd been a bit more intelligent and a bit better at listening then the nascent SNP threat could have been comfortably headed off long ago. But since the Hamilton by-election breakthrough they just cannot stop themselves digging deeper and deeper and deeper.

    The core Unionist problem is that deep down they feel hurt. But instead of dealing with their inner turmoil like well-adjusted adults, they lash out.
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    I want Boris as the leader of the Tory Party after they lose the next election, however, that is obviously for selfish reasons and not for the benefit of the Tory Party. I hope this Team Gideon v Team Boris continues, makes entertaining watching from afar.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787


    BBC Wales's Tomos Livingstone reports that Aberavon shortlist is

    Parmjit Dhanda (former Gloucester MP)
    Gavin Freeguard (former SpAd to Harriet)
    Mark Fisher (UNISON officer Neath/Port Talbot Branch Local Government; Neath town councillor)
    Stephen Kinnock http://www.stephenkinnock.co.uk/
    Jeremy Miles (solicitor from Swansea, stood in Beaconsfield in 2010)
    Suzanne Paddison (local Cllr)
    Sarah Woodall (from Cambridge)

    A very long shortlist. I think Miles was the one with the highest number of male nominations from ward branches (7 out of 16 wards).

    Have you got the shortlist of LibDems for Auchentennach West and the Glens as I like to warmly welcome them all to the gastronomic delights of the region ?

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,789
    Osborne is the Conservative equivalent of Brown.

    A political, rather than economic, Chancellor building an Emperor's New Clothes economy on rising house prices, off balance sheet financing and people spending money the country doesn't have.

    Someone who is all tactics and no strategy.

    But whereas Brown looked the part as the 'Iron Chancellor', 'Son of the Manse', man of gravitas etc Osborne looks like a ToryBoy who has never grown up.

    Now as to Osborne becoming Conservative leader, assuming Conservative MPs don't reject outright the idea of repeating Labour's error with Brown there are two possiblities:

    1) The Conservatives lose in 2015. In which case Osborne as master strategist and in charge of the economy will get the blame.
    2) The Conservatives win in 2015. In which case Osborne will have his reputation ruined when economic reality arrives shortly afterwards.

    Osborne is only a good bet if you think Britain can continually spend over £100bn more than it earns each and every year and that being a high cost country with stagnant productivity is irrelevant in a globalised world economy.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453


    The core Unionist problem is that deep down they feel hurt. But instead of dealing with their inner turmoil like well-adjusted adults, they lash out.

    The core Nat problem is that deep down they feel hurt because they are losing. But instead of dealing with their inner turmoil like well-adjusted adults, they lash out like children, scweaming "It's not fair, nasty bully saying things we don't like to hear!"
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371

    The trouble with lefties, Foxy, is that we aren't prepared to make seriously rich men richer. This applies as much to journalists as it does to nurses and bishops. Why Tories like you still think we should nevertheless have votes is something I can't understand. Although I did once have a drinking companion who was a libertarian of sorts and who did think that public sector workers shouldn't be allowed to vote.


    Utter Bollocks, there as as many rich Tories as there are champagne Socialists. The difference is that champagne Socialists like Miliband like to preach and tell us how it should be whilst not being affected in any way by the misery they force on others. The coffee saga is only the beginning of the nightmare Labour would enact
    If I want a free cup of Coffee at Waitrose, MIliband and his cronies can F off, Its none of their ffing business.
    How many of the rich Labour donors did well out of supporting Labour one wonders.
    The Costa giving crisis.

    I'm giving that an eight out of ten. That was quite good.
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    Scott_P said:


    The core Unionist problem is that deep down they feel hurt. But instead of dealing with their inner turmoil like well-adjusted adults, they lash out.

    The core Nat problem is that deep down they feel hurt because they are losing. But instead of dealing with their inner turmoil like well-adjusted adults, they lash out like children, scweaming "It's not fair, nasty bully saying things we don't like to hear!"
    Indeed. That is the core BritNat problem.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    It will not be problematic for Osbourne, it will be an easy "no" to currency union. The problem would be Scotlands.

    Cybernats are always saying that those south of the border do not understand Scottish politics, but the converse is even more true.

    The response to a yes vote in England would be: You have made your choice; now go forth and multiply.


    This:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/17/george-osborne-approach-scotland-currency-union

    ... is going to be problematic for Osborne after 19 September if the result is Yes.

    If it is a No then both Cameron and Osborne are going to be smelling of roses. They have both taken huge risks during the IndyRef campaign, and a No would be an immense personal boost for both of them.

    Dont confuse the Nats with "facts" - like their glorious leader, they only deal in "truth".

    Latest poll has opposition to SIndy keeping the £ 46:31 - no wonder Eck thinks the rUK electorate shouldn't be allowed to vote on it!

    Worse news on the EU - should have to apply to join: 67:12

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/01/english-welsh-majority-against-scots-independence
  • Charles said:


    I think you're being unfair to George HW. After all he won 3 nationwide US elections and if it hadn't been for Ross Perot's spoiler, would have likely been re-elected.

    Two of those elections were won by Reagan, and one was heavily influenced by his legacy. VPs don't win elections in a meaningful sense (although they can lose them).

    The exit polls in 1992 showed Perot taking votes pretty much equally from Bush and Clinton. And, to be honest, if you pick up less than 40% of the vote with all the resources of the Presidency behind you and off the back of winning a war, you can't really blame a "spoiler"... the blame lies far closer to home.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    Jonathan said:

    antifrank said:

    Wilson, Thatcher and Blair were succeeded by men who had served as Chancellor under them. Heath, Callaghan, Major and Brown were not. Notice a pattern?

    Macmillan, the exception that proves the rule.
    Strictly speaking, not. Macmillan was both preceded and succeeded by leaders who took over mid-term but were Foreign Secretaries, not Chancellors. That said, Macmillan *could* easily have been succeeded by a former Chancellor had he so wished it.

    MacDonald/Baldwin/Chamberlain/Churchill does however give a sequence of more than one successive ex-Chancellor becoming PM, as does Campbell Bannerman/Asquith/Lloyd George/Bonar Law/Baldwin.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453


    Indeed. That is the core BritNat problem.

    You think Nicola and Eck are British Nationalists? Wow, they're in bigger trouble than I thought
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I am not sure what this was a response to. Where have I suggested that making rich men richer, or that the franchise should be restricted? And I am an orange booker LD not a Tory. Did you address the wrong poster?

    The trouble with lefties, Foxy, is that we aren't prepared to make seriously rich men richer. This applies as much to journalists as it does to nurses and bishops. Why Tories like you still think we should nevertheless have votes is something I can't understand. Although I did once have a drinking companion who was a libertarian of sorts and who did think that public sector workers shouldn't be allowed to vote.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    edited March 2014

    It will not be problematic for Osbourne, it will be an easy "no" to currency union. The problem would be Scotlands.

    Cybernats are always saying that those south of the border do not understand Scottish politics, but the converse is even more true.

    The response to a yes vote in England would be: You have made your choice; now go forth and multiply.


    This:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/17/george-osborne-approach-scotland-currency-union

    ... is going to be problematic for Osborne after 19 September if the result is Yes.

    If it is a No then both Cameron and Osborne are going to be smelling of roses. They have both taken huge risks during the IndyRef campaign, and a No would be an immense personal boost for both of them.

    Ah, the southron attitude in a nutshell; the Scots are wise people if they vote No, and they can **** off if they vote Yes.
    Btw, most 'Cybernats' know enough about politics south of the border to be able to spell the chancellor's name correctly.

    It is attitudes like those expressed by foxinsoxuk that got the Union into trouble in the first place. If they'd been a bit more intelligent and a bit better at listening then the nascent SNP threat could have been comfortably headed off long ago. But since the Hamilton by-election breakthrough they just cannot stop themselves digging deeper and deeper and deeper.

    The core Unionist problem is that deep down they feel hurt. But instead of dealing with their inner turmoil like well-adjusted adults, they lash out.
    It is due to their attitude that they are superior and that we should not have the temerity to question the fact. They believe they are doing charitable work and looking after us. When the bubble bursts there will be lots of them wondering how it could possibly have happened.
    PS , most of us know what is happening in the rest of the UK, they only know what is happening inside the M25.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704
    JackW said:


    BBC Wales's Tomos Livingstone reports that Aberavon shortlist is

    Parmjit Dhanda (former Gloucester MP)
    Gavin Freeguard (former SpAd to Harriet)
    Mark Fisher (UNISON officer Neath/Port Talbot Branch Local Government; Neath town councillor)
    Stephen Kinnock http://www.stephenkinnock.co.uk/
    Jeremy Miles (solicitor from Swansea, stood in Beaconsfield in 2010)
    Suzanne Paddison (local Cllr)
    Sarah Woodall (from Cambridge)

    A very long shortlist. I think Miles was the one with the highest number of male nominations from ward branches (7 out of 16 wards).

    Have you got the shortlist of LibDems for Auchentennach West and the Glens as I like to warmly welcome them all to the gastronomic delights of the region ?

    Fighting Beaconsfield has, in the past, amazingly enough, meant a path right to the top for the Labour candidate!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    malcolmg said:


    It is due to their attitude that they are superior and that we should not have the temerity to question the fact.

    Like when a CyberNat, who may live in Sweden for example, claims that another poster doesn't know anything about Scotland?

    Yes, that is really going to win friends and influence people
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708


    Osborne is only a good bet if you think Britain can continually spend over £100bn more than it earns each and every year and that being a high cost country with stagnant productivity is irrelevant in a globalised world economy.

    Growth and a reasonable amount of restraint with spending and tax cuts (which Osborne is perfectly capable of) would fix the debt over time without too much drama. High costs and (relatively) low productivity are ongoing problems for Britain, but the country is perfectly capable of having reasonable periods of growth despite them. So you probably shouldn't expect economic calamity to derail Osborne's leadership ambitions.
  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,759
    It is difficult to see Osborne as Tory leader and once Dave is ousted as eventually all leaders will be,Osborne will probably meet a similar fate.
  • hucks67hucks67 Posts: 758
    I don't see Osborne as a leader. Surely the Tories will want to move on from the posh boys and elect someone from a different background. Theresa May would be the obvious choice but would she be too old in 2020 to lead the Tories in opposition into an election ?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,461

    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: Mercedes delayed. Their gearbox seems a bit fragile.

    Comrade Root, under the wise helmsmanship of Chairman Miliband, the People's Communal Market of Goods will supply you with all your coffee needs! Do not succumb to the vile temptations of the capitalist pigdogs of Waitrose! The so-called 'free' coffee is merely there to lure you into bourgeois decadence.

    And the Red Bull has just gone up in smoke, again.

    I wonder why several teams have had gearbox problems during the test? It'd be nice to know where the ERS systems take / add energy into the powertrain, and how much the 'boxes have had to change from last year. Or it might be that the 'boxes haven't changed internally but they've had to repackage them.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    On topic, I can't see it personally. Osborne has the advantages of age and office, meaning he'd likely be well-placed if he wanted to run but he suffers on personality and support.

    The only scenario in which I can see him becoming next Con leader is if the Conservatives win the next election outright and he then seeks to build his own support base in time for a 2018/19 handover (Cameron would have been leader for some 13 years or so by then). That, however is a long time to tie money up for and introduces any number of uncertainties.

    In any other situation, he's either discredited by being associated too closely with the Cameron regime - which if there's a leadership election, we have to assume would have suffered failure of some sort - or is starting from too far back.

    How I would interpret the (second-hand) Boris-Osborne reports is that it's more part of a 'stop Boris' campaign than a 'vote George' one.
  • I am not sure what this was a response to. Where have I suggested that making rich men richer, or that the franchise should be restricted? And I am an orange booker LD not a Tory. Did you address the wrong poster?



    The trouble with lefties, Foxy, is that we aren't prepared to make seriously rich men richer. This applies as much to journalists as it does to nurses and bishops. Why Tories like you still think we should nevertheless have votes is something I can't understand. Although I did once have a drinking companion who was a libertarian of sorts and who did think that public sector workers shouldn't be allowed to vote.

    No, I just can't tell OB LibDems from Tories. How is it done?

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,461
    hucks67 said:

    I don't see Osborne as a leader. Surely the Tories will want to move on from the posh boys and elect someone from a different background. Theresa May would be the obvious choice but would she be too old in 2020 to lead the Tories in opposition into an election ?

    I'd like someone to show me where Osborne has said or indicated that he wants the top job. Is there any?

    It seems to be a leftist wet-dream, someone they'd want to become PM just so they can attack them easily.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited March 2014

    JackW said:


    BBC Wales's Tomos Livingstone reports that Aberavon shortlist is

    Parmjit Dhanda (former Gloucester MP)
    Gavin Freeguard (former SpAd to Harriet)
    Mark Fisher (UNISON officer Neath/Port Talbot Branch Local Government; Neath town councillor)
    Stephen Kinnock http://www.stephenkinnock.co.uk/
    Jeremy Miles (solicitor from Swansea, stood in Beaconsfield in 2010)
    Suzanne Paddison (local Cllr)
    Sarah Woodall (from Cambridge)

    A very long shortlist. I think Miles was the one with the highest number of male nominations from ward branches (7 out of 16 wards).

    Have you got the shortlist of LibDems for Auchentennach West and the Glens as I like to warmly welcome them all to the gastronomic delights of the region ?

    Fighting Beaconsfield has, in the past, amazingly enough, meant a path right to the top for the Labour candidate!
    Well quite.

    However I've found it difficult to persuade Scottish LibDems that the route to the wonders of yellow peril heaven may be found through Auchentennah .... it's a mystery ?!?

  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    Osborne is the Conservative equivalent of Brown.

    A political, rather than economic, Chancellor building an Emperor's New Clothes economy on rising house prices, off balance sheet financing and people spending money the country doesn't have.

    Someone who is all tactics and no strategy.

    But whereas Brown looked the part as the 'Iron Chancellor', 'Son of the Manse', man of gravitas etc Osborne looks like a ToryBoy who has never grown up.

    Now as to Osborne becoming Conservative leader, assuming Conservative MPs don't reject outright the idea of repeating Labour's error with Brown there are two possiblities:

    1) The Conservatives lose in 2015. In which case Osborne as master strategist and in charge of the economy will get the blame.
    2) The Conservatives win in 2015. In which case Osborne will have his reputation ruined when economic reality arrives shortly afterwards.

    Osborne is only a good bet if you think Britain can continually spend over £100bn more than it earns each and every year and that being a high cost country with stagnant productivity is irrelevant in a globalised world economy.

    On that basis there will never be another Labour chancellor.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I do not feel hurt, and from what I have seen over recent weeks it is the cybernats who are most prone to tantrums.

    I am not particularly Unionist either! I dislike the Yes campaign for its mendacious "it will be all right, Salmond has a cunning plan" style. But If the Scottish people are wise enough to see through Salmonds bluster they will vote no. The Yes campaign should have gone for real independence and taken the "It will be difficult at first, but in the long term Scotland will be a better place" line.

    rUK politics will be very different after a Yes vote, but largely unchanged by No. I did observe yesterday about the Ukranian situation that revolutions rarely produce good governments, but failed ones often bring about concessions and progress (either that or a bloodbath). I think much the same about the Indy ref.

    Incidently my money is on yes at 4:1

    It will not be problematic for Osbourne, it will be an easy "no" to currency union. The problem would be Scotlands.

    Cybernats are always saying that those south of the border do not understand Scottish politics, but the converse is even more true.

    The response to a yes vote in England would be: You have made your choice; now go forth and multiply.


    This:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/17/george-osborne-approach-scotland-currency-union

    ... is going to be problematic for Osborne after 19 September if the result is Yes.

    If it is a No then both Cameron and Osborne are going to be smelling of roses. They have both taken huge risks during the IndyRef campaign, and a No would be an immense personal boost for both of them.

    Ah, the southron attitude in a nutshell; the Scots are wise people if they vote No, and they can **** off if they vote Yes.
    Btw, most 'Cybernats' know enough about politics south of the border to be able to spell the chancellor's name correctly.

    It is attitudes like those expressed by foxinsoxuk that got the Union into trouble in the first place. If they'd been a bit more intelligent and a bit better at listening then the nascent SNP threat could have been comfortably headed off long ago. But since the Hamilton by-election breakthrough they just cannot stop themselves digging deeper and deeper and deeper.

    The core Unionist problem is that deep down they feel hurt. But instead of dealing with their inner turmoil like well-adjusted adults, they lash out.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523


    Osborne is only a good bet if you think Britain can continually spend over £100bn more than it earns each and every year and that being a high cost country with stagnant productivity is irrelevant in a globalised world economy.

    Growth and a reasonable amount of restraint with spending and tax cuts (which Osborne is perfectly capable of) would fix the debt over time without too much drama. High costs and (relatively) low productivity are ongoing problems for Britain, but the country is perfectly capable of having reasonable periods of growth despite them. So you probably shouldn't expect economic calamity to derail Osborne's leadership ambitions.
    "Growth" based on importing more people makes the balance of payments worse.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    MrJones said:


    Osborne is only a good bet if you think Britain can continually spend over £100bn more than it earns each and every year and that being a high cost country with stagnant productivity is irrelevant in a globalised world economy.

    Growth and a reasonable amount of restraint with spending and tax cuts (which Osborne is perfectly capable of) would fix the debt over time without too much drama. High costs and (relatively) low productivity are ongoing problems for Britain, but the country is perfectly capable of having reasonable periods of growth despite them. So you probably shouldn't expect economic calamity to derail Osborne's leadership ambitions.
    "Growth" based on importing more people makes the balance of payments worse.
    It may make it better or worse, depends on the circumstances.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,951
    Mr. Jessop, the gearboxes do look crumbly.

    I wonder if Williams might be a surprisingly good team. Ferrari also appear to be somewhat under the radar, which is a bit odd considering their drivers.
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    Osborne would be the gift that keeps on giving......... to Labour.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,789
    Something which I don't think I've seen mentioned here before is the long term strategic madness the Conservatives are applying with their subsidising of increasing house PRICES.

    This is fundamentally different from their traditional strategy of encouraging increasing home OWNERSHIP.

    At heart the Conservatives have traditionally had a problem of being seen as the party of the 'rich'. They countered this with a succession of lower middle class made good leaders - Heath, Thatcher, Major - and emphasising aspiration and self-responsibility. But they have stumbled on a situation where their leadership is based on inherited wealth and are applying policies which increase inequality in a world where inequality is already increasing. All the while whilst exuding a sense of entitlement.

    Now it may be that rising house prices help keep the over 50s voting Conservative in 2015 but the long term effect may be to permanently disaffect potential supporters among the under 30s.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Pessimism always wins. One of the reasons I left my correspondent's post in Moscow was because Russia, despite all the foam on the water, is ultimately a very boring place. Unfortunately, all you really need to do to seem clairvoyant about the place is to be an utter pessimist. Will Vladimir Putin allow the ostensibly liberal Dmitry Medvedev to have a second term? Not a chance. There are protests in the streets of Moscow. Will Putin crackdown? Yup. There's rumbling in the Crimea, will Putin take advantage and take the Crimean peninsula? You betcha. And you know why being a pessimist is the best way to predict outcomes in Russia? Because Putin and those around him are, fundamentally, terminal pessimists. They truly believe that there is an American conspiracy afoot to topple Putin, that Russian liberals are traitors corrupted by and loyal to the West, they truly believe that, should free and fair elections be held in Russia, their countrymen would elect bloodthirsty fascists, rather than democratic liberals. To a large extent, Putin really believes that he is the one man standing between Russia and the yawning void. Putin's Kremlin is dark and scary, and, ultimately, very boring."

    http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116810/putin-declares-war-ukraine-and-us-or-nato-wont-do-much
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    It will not be problematic for Osbourne, it will be an easy "no" to currency union. The problem would be Scotlands.

    Cybernats are always saying that those south of the border do not understand Scottish politics, but the converse is even more true.

    The response to a yes vote in England would be: You have made your choice; now go forth and multiply.


    This:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/17/george-osborne-approach-scotland-currency-union

    ... is going to be problematic for Osborne after 19 September if the result is Yes.

    If it is a No then both Cameron and Osborne are going to be smelling of roses. They have both taken huge risks during the IndyRef campaign, and a No would be an immense personal boost for both of them.

    Ah, the southron attitude in a nutshell; the Scots are wise people if they vote No, and they can **** off if they vote Yes.
    Btw, most 'Cybernats' know enough about politics south of the border to be able to spell the chancellor's name correctly.

    It's O-S-B-R-O-W-N-E isn't it?
  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,759
    Just listening to Farage on Marr.Pretty impressive.This guy is not going away come the general election for sure.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Something which I don't think I've seen mentioned here before is the long term strategic madness the Conservatives are applying with their subsidising of increasing house PRICES.

    This is fundamentally different from their traditional strategy of encouraging increasing home OWNERSHIP.

    At heart the Conservatives have traditionally had a problem of being seen as the party of the 'rich'. They countered this with a succession of lower middle class made good leaders - Heath, Thatcher, Major - and emphasising aspiration and self-responsibility. But they have stumbled on a situation where their leadership is based on inherited wealth and are applying policies which increase inequality in a world where inequality is already increasing. All the while whilst exuding a sense of entitlement.

    Now it may be that rising house prices help keep the over 50s voting Conservative in 2015 but the long term effect may be to permanently disaffect potential supporters among the under 30s.

    The best thing the Conservatives could do to boost home ownership right now is to increase taxes on second homes.
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    malcolmg said:

    It will not be problematic for Osbourne, it will be an easy "no" to currency union. The problem would be Scotlands.

    Cybernats are always saying that those south of the border do not understand Scottish politics, but the converse is even more true.

    The response to a yes vote in England would be: You have made your choice; now go forth and multiply.


    This:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/17/george-osborne-approach-scotland-currency-union

    ... is going to be problematic for Osborne after 19 September if the result is Yes.

    If it is a No then both Cameron and Osborne are going to be smelling of roses. They have both taken huge risks during the IndyRef campaign, and a No would be an immense personal boost for both of them.

    Ah, the southron attitude in a nutshell; the Scots are wise people if they vote No, and they can **** off if they vote Yes.
    Btw, most 'Cybernats' know enough about politics south of the border to be able to spell the chancellor's name correctly.

    It is attitudes like those expressed by foxinsoxuk that got the Union into trouble in the first place. If they'd been a bit more intelligent and a bit better at listening then the nascent SNP threat could have been comfortably headed off long ago. But since the Hamilton by-election breakthrough they just cannot stop themselves digging deeper and deeper and deeper.

    The core Unionist problem is that deep down they feel hurt. But instead of dealing with their inner turmoil like well-adjusted adults, they lash out.
    It is due to their attitude that they are superior and that we should not have the temerity to question the fact. They believe they are doing charitable work and looking after us. When the bubble bursts there will be lots of them wondering how it could possibly have happened.
    PS , most of us know what is happening in the rest of the UK, they only know what is happening inside the M25.
    I find it hard to visualise Unionists as "charitable" types. Their attitude to Scotland would be akin to the RSPB spraying Minsmere with DDT, followed by a decent helping of Agent Orange and Napalm. Their aim is to thoroughly eradicate anything which does not conform to their model of "Britishness".

    They want to "look after us" in the same way the mafia "looks after" opponents in the movies.
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    What are the key differences between an Orange Book Liberal and a Cameroon Tory?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    hucks67 said:

    I don't see Osborne as a leader. Surely the Tories will want to move on from the posh boys and elect someone from a different background. Theresa May would be the obvious choice but would she be too old in 2020 to lead the Tories in opposition into an election ?

    Background doesn't matter in Tory leadership contests. Personality and character do. Osborne won't be ruled out because he went to St Paul's.
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    BobaFett said:

    What are the key differences between an Orange Book Liberal and a Cameroon Tory?

    The answer to that question is the reason we have not seen Charlie Kennedy during the IndyRef campaign.

    I for one am looking forward to him taking the stage. If he takes the stage.

    He is one of very few Unionists who is still respected and liked by broad sections of the Scottish public.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,461

    Mr. Jessop, the gearboxes do look crumbly.

    I wonder if Williams might be a surprisingly good team. Ferrari also appear to be somewhat under the radar, which is a bit odd considering their drivers.

    So far I would rate the teams as follows, using my patented utterly arbitrary system:
    1) Mercedes
    2) Williams
    3) Ferrari
    4) McLaren
    5) Force India

    Mercedes being top is hardly surprising, or Ferrari third, but Williams and FI are. especially as before last season I thought FI would not see it through to 2014 as a team ...
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,549
    The late Roy Jenkins wrote a book called The Chancellors with short biographical essays on each of the Chancellors from Lord Randolph Churchill to Hugh Dalton.

    Very interesting, if you can find a copy.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "09:48:BREAKING NEWS Ukraine is to call up all its military reservists, the government has announced."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26405082
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    malcolmg said:

    It will not be problematic for Osbourne, it will be an easy "no" to currency union. The problem would be Scotlands.

    Cybernats are always saying that those south of the border do not understand Scottish politics, but the converse is even more true.

    The response to a yes vote in England would be: You have made your choice; now go forth and multiply.


    This:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/17/george-osborne-approach-scotland-currency-union

    ... is going to be problematic for Osborne after 19 September if the result is Yes.

    If it is a No then both Cameron and Osborne are going to be smelling of roses. They have both taken huge risks during the IndyRef campaign, and a No would be an immense personal boost for both of them.

    Ah, the southron attitude in a nutshell; the Scots are wise people if they vote No, and they can **** off if they vote Yes.
    Btw, most 'Cybernats' know enough about politics south of the border to be able to spell the chancellor's name correctly.

    It is attitudes like those expressed by foxinsoxuk that got the Union into trouble in the first place. If they'd been a bit more intelligent and a bit better at listening then the nascent SNP threat could have been comfortably headed off long ago. But since the Hamilton by-election breakthrough they just cannot stop themselves digging deeper and deeper and deeper.

    The core Unionist problem is that deep down they feel hurt. But instead of dealing with their inner turmoil like well-adjusted adults, they lash out.
    It is due to their attitude that they are superior and that we should not have the temerity to question the fact. They believe they are doing charitable work and looking after us. When the bubble bursts there will be lots of them wondering how it could possibly have happened.
    PS , most of us know what is happening in the rest of the UK, they only know what is happening inside the M25.
    I find it hard to visualise Unionists as "charitable" types. Their attitude to Scotland would be akin to the RSPB spraying Minsmere with DDT, followed by a decent helping of Agent Orange and Napalm. Their aim is to thoroughly eradicate anything which does not conform to their model of "Britishness".

    They want to "look after us" in the same way the mafia "looks after" opponents in the movies.
    I think that says rather more about the Nats than the Unionists.....

  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523

    Something which I don't think I've seen mentioned here before is the long term strategic madness the Conservatives are applying with their subsidising of increasing house PRICES.

    This is fundamentally different from their traditional strategy of encouraging increasing home OWNERSHIP.

    At heart the Conservatives have traditionally had a problem of being seen as the party of the 'rich'. They countered this with a succession of lower middle class made good leaders - Heath, Thatcher, Major - and emphasising aspiration and self-responsibility. But they have stumbled on a situation where their leadership is based on inherited wealth and are applying policies which increase inequality in a world where inequality is already increasing. All the while whilst exuding a sense of entitlement.

    Now it may be that rising house prices help keep the over 50s voting Conservative in 2015 but the long term effect may be to permanently disaffect potential supporters among the under 30s.

    That's the crux of the centre-right problem. Their electoral interests are best served by increasing the size of the middle class (US definition) as much as possible but their donors want to maximize the number of poor people to lower wages.
  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,759
    AndyJS said:

    "09:48:BREAKING NEWS Ukraine is to call up all its military reservists, the government has announced."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26405082

    Just posturing..Can Ukraine really take on Russia?

    If the Ukrainians want to overthrow a democratically elected government,then Russia has the right to protect ethnic Russians in my view.
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557

    malcolmg said:

    SNIP

    This:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/17/george-osborne-approach-scotland-currency-union

    ... is going to be problematic for Osborne after 19 September if the result is Yes.

    If it is a No then both Cameron and Osborne are going to be smelling of roses. They have both taken huge risks during the IndyRef campaign, and a No would be an immense personal boost for both of them.

    Ah, the southron attitude in a nutshell; the Scots are wise people if they vote No, and they can **** off if they vote Yes.
    Btw, most 'Cybernats' know enough about politics south of the border to be able to spell the chancellor's name correctly.

    It is attitudes like those expressed by foxinsoxuk that got the Union into trouble in the first place. If they'd been a bit more intelligent and a bit better at listening then the nascent SNP threat could have been comfortably headed off long ago. But since the Hamilton by-election breakthrough they just cannot stop themselves digging deeper and deeper and deeper.

    The core Unionist problem is that deep down they feel hurt. But instead of dealing with their inner turmoil like well-adjusted adults, they lash out.
    It is due to their attitude that they are superior and that we should not have the temerity to question the fact. They believe they are doing charitable work and looking after us. When the bubble bursts there will be lots of them wondering how it could possibly have happened.
    PS , most of us know what is happening in the rest of the UK, they only know what is happening inside the M25.
    I find it hard to visualise Unionists as "charitable" types. Their attitude to Scotland would be akin to the RSPB spraying Minsmere with DDT, followed by a decent helping of Agent Orange and Napalm. Their aim is to thoroughly eradicate anything which does not conform to their model of "Britishness".

    They want to "look after us" in the same way the mafia "looks after" opponents in the movies.
    I think that says rather more about the Nats than the Unionists.....

    As Andrew Carnegie said: “As I grow older, I pay less attention to what men say, I just watch what they do”.

    I'm afraid that Unionists are judged by their frequent uncharitable actions rather than any occasionally charitable words.

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/andrew-wilson-actions-speak-louder-than-words-1-3325036
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    SMukesh said:

    Just listening to Farage on Marr.Pretty impressive.This guy is not going away come the general election for sure.

    He was impressive today, particularly pleased that he admitted the Wythenshawe by election was not UKIPs finest hour. I wrote to the party complaining about the "vote ukip to keep your benefits" nonsense... Shouldn't try and be all things to all men, just be confident and consistent in your philosophy.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    SMukesh said:

    AndyJS said:

    "09:48:BREAKING NEWS Ukraine is to call up all its military reservists, the government has announced."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26405082

    Just posturing..Can Ukraine really take on Russia?

    If the Ukrainians want to overthrow a democratically elected government,then Russia has the right to protect ethnic Russians in my view.
    Calling up reservists sounds like a recipe for lots of punch ups between East and West Ukrainians.
  • malcolmg said:

    SNIP

    This:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/17/george-osborne-approach-scotland-currency-union

    ... is going to be problematic for Osborne after 19 September if the result is Yes.

    If it is a No then both Cameron and Osborne are going to be smelling of roses. They have both taken huge risks during the IndyRef campaign, and a No would be an immense personal boost for both of them.

    Ah, the southron attitude in a nutshell; the Scots are wise people if they vote No, and they can **** off if they vote Yes.
    Btw, most 'Cybernats' know enough about politics south of the border to be able to spell the chancellor's name correctly.

    movies.
    I think that says rather more about the Nats than the Unionists.....

    As Andrew Carnegie said: “As I grow older, I pay less attention to what men say, I just watch what they do”.

    I'm afraid that Unionists are judged by their frequent uncharitable actions rather than any occasionally charitable words.

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/andrew-wilson-actions-speak-louder-than-words-1-3325036
    Yes, Stuart. Can you can confirm that an independent Scotland will grant asylum to any ethnic Scot who (drunk or sober) murders a Sassenach or three whether they do it in Sauciehall Street or Camden Town? Or even can you estimate the proportion of "yes" voters who would like an independent Scotland to do so? (I assume that you are one such yourself...)

    It is hard, after all, to place any other construction on the "cultural" arguments for independence...

  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    malcolmg said:

    It will not be problematic for Osbourne, it will be an easy "no" to currency union. The problem would be Scotlands.

    Cybernats are always saying that those south of the border do not understand Scottish politics, but the converse is even more true.

    The response to a yes vote in England would be: You have made your choice; now go forth and multiply.


    This:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/17/george-osborne-approach-scotland-currency-union

    ... is going to be problematic for Osborne after 19 September if the result is Yes.

    If it is a No then both Cameron and Osborne are going to be smelling of roses. They have both taken huge risks during the IndyRef campaign, and a No would be an immense personal boost for both of them.

    Ah, the southron attitude in a nutshell; the Scots are wise people if they vote No, and they can **** off if they vote Yes.
    Btw, most 'Cybernats' know enough about politics south of the border to be able to spell the chancellor's name correctly.

    It is attitudes like those expressed by foxinsoxuk that got the Union into trouble in the first place. If they'd been a bit more intelligent and a bit better at listening then the nascent SNP threat could have been comfortably headed off long ago. But since the Hamilton by-election breakthrough they just cannot stop themselves digging deeper and deeper and deeper.

    The core Unionist problem is that deep down they feel hurt. But instead of dealing with their inner turmoil like well-adjusted adults, they lash out.
    It is due to their attitude that they are superior and that we should not have the temerity to question the fact. They believe they are doing charitable work and looking after us. When the bubble bursts there will be lots of them wondering how it could possibly have happened.
    PS , most of us know what is happening in the rest of the UK, they only know what is happening inside the M25.
    I thibk there are far fewer unionists than you think, outside Scotland because it honestly makes no perceptible difference to anyone living south of Carlisle. Scotland has problems specific to itself which aren't going to be addressed by a Westminster government with one MP north of the border, so if Scotland opts for independence good luck to it (and it will genuinely have the good will of most sane EWNI residents)..

    A much larger movement than unionism is the "let's all laugh at Eck" tendency which is legitimate and beneficial if it helps to clarify in any way at all what the Scots are voting for.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,033
    BBC raises a good point, Russia supplies a third if EU gas and oil. We are in a bit of a pickle with this one.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    malcolmg said:

    SNIP

    This:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/17/george-osborne-approach-scotland-currency-union

    ... is going to be problematic for Osborne after 19 September if the result is Yes.

    If it is a No then both Cameron and Osborne are going to be smelling of roses. They have both taken huge risks during the IndyRef campaign, and a No would be an immense personal boost for both of them.

    Ah, the southron attitude in a nutshell; the Scots are wise people if they vote No, and they can **** off if they vote Yes.
    Btw, most 'Cybernats' know enough about politics south of the border to be able to spell the chancellor's name correctly.

    It is attitudes like those expressed by foxinsoxuk that got the Union into trouble in the first place. If they'd been a bit more intelligent and a bit better at listening then the nascent SNP threat could have been comfortably headed off long ago. But since the Hamilton by-election breakthrough they just cannot stop themselves digging deeper and deeper and deeper.

    The core Unionist problem is that deep down they feel hurt. But instead of dealing with their inner turmoil like well-adjusted adults, they lash out.
    It is due to their attitude that they are superior and that we should not have the temerity to question the fact. They believe they are doing charitable work and looking after us. When the bubble bursts there will be lots of them wondering how it could possibly have happened.
    PS , most of us know what is happening in the rest of the UK, they only know what is happening inside the M25.
    I find it hard to visualise Unionists as "charitable" types. Their attitude to Scotland would be akin to the RSPB spraying Minsmere with DDT, followed by a decent helping of Agent Orange and Napalm. Their aim is to thoroughly eradicate anything which does not conform to their model of "Britishness".

    They want to "look after us" in the same way the mafia "looks after" opponents in the movies.
    I think that says rather more about the Nats than the Unionists.....

    As Andrew Carnegie said: “As I grow older, I pay less attention to what men say, I just watch what they do”.

    I'm afraid that Unionists are judged by their frequent uncharitable actions rather than any occasionally charitable words.

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/andrew-wilson-actions-speak-louder-than-words-1-3325036
    Wise words from Carnegie. What would he think of a man who day and night shouts his devotion to Scotland but chooses to live in Sweden ?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,147
    isam said:

    It will not be problematic for Osbourne, it will be an easy "no" to currency union. The problem would be Scotlands.

    Cybernats are always saying that those south of the border do not understand Scottish politics, but the converse is even more true.

    The response to a yes vote in England would be: You have made your choice; now go forth and multiply.


    This:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/17/george-osborne-approach-scotland-currency-union

    ... is going to be problematic for Osborne after 19 September if the result is Yes.

    If it is a No then both Cameron and Osborne are going to be smelling of roses. They have both taken huge risks during the IndyRef campaign, and a No would be an immense personal boost for both of them.

    Ah, the southron attitude in a nutshell; the Scots are wise people if they vote No, and they can **** off if they vote Yes.
    Btw, most 'Cybernats' know enough about politics south of the border to be able to spell the chancellor's name correctly.

    It's O-S-B-R-O-W-N-E isn't it?
    Keep up, it's O-S-B-A-L-L-S.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited March 2014

    malcolmg said:

    SNIP

    This:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/17/george-osborne-approach-scotland-currency-union

    ... is going to be problematic for Osborne after 19 September if the result is Yes.

    If it is a No then both Cameron and Osborne are going to be smelling of roses. They have both taken huge risks during the IndyRef campaign, and a No would be an immense personal boost for both of them.

    Ah, the southron attitude in a nutshell; the Scots are wise people if they vote No, and they can **** off if they vote Yes.
    Btw, most 'Cybernats' know enough about politics south of the border to be able to spell the chancellor's name correctly.

    It is attitudes like those expressed by foxinsoxuk that got the Union into trouble in the first place. If they'd been a bit more intelligent and a bit better at listening then the nascent SNP threat could have been comfortably headed off long ago. But since the Hamilton by-election breakthrough they just cannot stop themselves digging deeper and deeper and deeper.

    The core Unionist problem is that deep down they feel hurt. But instead of dealing with their inner turmoil like well-adjusted adults, they lash out.
    It is due to their attitude that they are superior and that we should not have the temerity to question the fact. They believe they are doing charitable work and looking after us. When the bubble bursts there will be lots of them wondering how it could possibly have happened.
    PS , most of us know what is happening in the rest of the UK, they only know what is happening inside the M25.
    I find it hard to visualise Unionists as "charitable" types. Their attitude to Scotland would be akin to the RSPB spraying Minsmere with DDT, followed by a decent helping of Agent Orange and Napalm. Their aim is to thoroughly eradicate anything which does not conform to their model of "Britishness".

    They want to "look after us" in the same way the mafia "looks after" opponents in the movies.
    I think that says rather more about the Nats than the Unionists.....

    As Andrew Carnegie said: “As I grow older, I pay less attention to what men say, I just watch what they do”.
    I can understand why you would not wish us to pay attention to what you say......

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    SMukesh said:

    AndyJS said:

    "09:48:BREAKING NEWS Ukraine is to call up all its military reservists, the government has announced."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26405082

    Just posturing..Can Ukraine really take on Russia?

    If the Ukrainians want to overthrow a democratically elected government,then Russia has the right to protect ethnic Russians in my view.
    What exactly are the Russian occupation forces protecting ethnic Russians from ?

    Does Putin have the "right" to protect ethnic Russians and occupy other east European states? :

    Latvia - 27% ethnic Russian
    Estonia - 26%
    Lithuania - 6%
    Belarus - 8%
    Moldova - 6%

  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Good morning all and on thread, I doubt either Orborne or Johnson will be next Tory leader let alone PM. The truth is that the further one travels from the M25 the less either is liked though obviously Osborne must be fairly popular in his little enclave near Manchester.

    Both are viewed as London centric with little interest outside it and frankly Boris has insulted too much of the rest of the country at some time or another to be accepted.

    I would expect David Cameron's successor who will be elected as leader circa 2020 (barring DC having an accident) will be a current junior/middle ranking minister who gets to shine in his post 2015 cabinet.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    Scott_P said:


    The core Unionist problem is that deep down they feel hurt. But instead of dealing with their inner turmoil like well-adjusted adults, they lash out.

    The core Nat problem is that deep down they feel hurt because they are losing. But instead of dealing with their inner turmoil like well-adjusted adults, they lash out like children, scweaming "It's not fair, nasty bully saying things we don't like to hear!"
    what a saddo, try having an original thought
This discussion has been closed.