Why are you unable to accept the nature of Hamas? Yes Israel has gone way over the top, and it needs to stop. But that doesn’t make Hamas somehow a bit less evil, except that’s how you seem to see it.
Hamas are evil but the current strategy is not going to stop their evil ideology. It will just make it worse.
As for your point about them wanting to wipe all Jews off the planet, Israel ARE on the way to wiping all of Gaza out.
There’s a risk of forgetting that sometimes military victory does bring about peace.
The Soviets ‘wiped out’ Koenigsberg. Did it make the Nazi threat worse?
The Russians, by their own propaganda, are currently fighting the "Nazis" of Ukraine!
@BartholomewRoberts glad you are back - so do you continue to support Israel despite the innocent people they keep murdering?
Innocents die in war, the difference between Israel and Hamas is that Hamas targets innocents deliberately. Israel does not, though will inevitably sometimes make mistakes.
Israel also owns up to its mistakes, Hamas do not.
Part of the reason why Israel are in every way better than Hamas and why I support Israel continuing the fighting until Hamas is completely destroyed.
Collateral damage is tragic but not murder.
It knew who these people were and targeted them.
Israel has not even apologised.
You are off the deep end. Please come home.
The fact you need to lie to make your point, rather shows how weak your argument is, even on what should be a strong ground for you.
From BBC Verify: The IDF chief of general staff Herzi Halevi has issued a statement calling the attack "a mistake that followed a misidentification at night… it shouldn't have happened".
He said an investigation into the incident would be completed "in the next coming days".
When Israel kills an innocent its a mistake and they launch investigations into what went wrong, same as any other western nation. Hamas targets innocents.
Hamas has only killed 1,700 people since 2008, even including 7/10.
You know full well, as many other people not myself, have made the point to you that the fake figures you keep peddling ignore eg Palestinians thrown off rooftops by Hamas etc
Or do Palestinian deaths mean nothing to you unless they're caused by Israelis?
You are a silly billy.
Renegade death cult ****s like Hamas should be measured on a different scale to a democratic Israel.
Your view since October 7th is that Israel can stop massacring foreign aid workers, women and children when off the scale bonkers, don't give a f*** death cult Hamas hand over their weapons, and that is is patently absurd.
I would have more time for Bibi if Hamas Grandees were falling out of Doha penthouse windows than Gaza hospitals were instead being levelled.
Renegade death cults like Hamas can't be negotiated with, they either kill or they need to be killed.
Israel can stop its war when the war is over. That is either when Hamas hands over their weapons, or when they're all dead. Neither has happened yet.
Israel has been killing Hamas leaders outside of Gaza too, I assume you have applauded them for this, right?
Its not either/or, they should be doing both - and are.
Paragraph.1. Correct, but proportionality has to be exercised
Paragraph 2. Hello, this is a f*****' death cult they don't follow the Geneva Convention!
Paragraph 3. If you mean precision strikes killing bastards with limited collateral, hell yes. Razing the Iranian consulate in another sovereign state to the ground, not so much unless the aim is a full regional conflict with US intervention.
1. Agreed - and Israel is exercising it.
2. Agreed - which is why they need to be defeated and can't be negotiated with and there should be no ceasefire.
3. Precision strikes with limited collateral is just unachievable nonsense. Any strike always has collateral.
1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich?
Wasn't everyone saying they shouldn't bomb Gaza but go after the leaders of Hamas instead. Isn't that the basis of their supposed extra-territorial strikes.
That’s nonsense. Hamas are only limited by circumstance. They would wipe out every Jew in a heartbeat if they could.
I'm sure Israel have done a GREAT job of not creating a new generation of Jew haters.
Yes, they are rapidly creating the next army for Hamas. It’s not logical, and it’s self destructive behaviour.
I’d like to think that the two state solution would be the answer, but how they get there from here seems rather tricky.
They're not creating the next one at all, the next one already exists.
If there is a ceasefire and Gaza goes back to being blockaded, then the next one will exist.
The only way to end this cycle of violence is to break it. Total victory for Israel, the total destruction or unconditional surrender of Hamas, then a Marshall Plan style redevelopment for Palestinians so they have a bright future without wanting to throw their lives away killing Jews instead.
Can't have the latter without the former.
It would be easier to believe that would be the case if Israel were making the effort to provide sufficient food to civilians in the areas that they control.
The Israeli failure to provide sufficient food to civilians in areas that they control makes it hard not to think that their intended endgame is a Gaza without any Palestinians, rather than only without Hamas.
I think many in the IDF want to stop aid in order to starve Gaza into submission. Certainly their actions look very much like this.
I have no doubt that many in the IDF want exactly that. But thankfully Israel, like us, doesn't let the hotheads run the show.
The question to ask is absent the IDF, at what point would Hamas have stopped on October 7th.
Isn't the issue that the hotheads increasingly are running the show? In practice if not in theory.
"WLabourhat I find really interesting about this MRP is that ..."
I find there is a need for some proofreading on this site.
Editing PB is one of my four full time jobs at the moment.
Plus editing on a phone is never fun.
What are your other jobs?
TSE is a part-time high-flier executive manager. AND a full-time over-priced fancy-footwear tester.
TSE is a manager? Do we know in what sort of business?
His business is extreme modesty & inexpensive, quiet shoes.
This is known.
Oh I see. Sounds sort of interesting.
I imagine TSE in Garfield Slippers.
Not a clue what TSE looks like or really anything about them.
sneak preview of TSE's slippers
Current footwear.
More money than sense!
Hey Sunil, was thinking of you just now as I’ve had a pleasant day train riding in Yorkshire. Originally planned to do a loop - Harrogate - York - Scarborough - Hull - Leeds - Harrogate but couldn’t make the connections work so I’ve just done the Scarborough line and back.
Nice one. I did both York to Scarborough and Hull to Scarborough back in 2017.
I used to get the train on that route quite often, lovely views.
One view I’m getting a lot of is waterlogged ploughed fields with hardly any growth.
And I’ve been seeing that in Staffs, Glos, Cheshire and North Wales too.
If Sunak is serious about the autumn I wondered if he’s factored in drought in Europe and monsoon in the British Isles causing food inflation to skyrocket again?
It's going to be a bad year for (arable) farmers.
Cows, sheep and pig don't seem to mind the rain so much. Pigs, because they'll survive any condition and eat anything. Cows, because they're hardy. Sheep; because they're too stoopid to die...
I don’t reckon sheep and cattle will enjoy this mud too much. Foot rot and getting stuck are likely to be issues.
As for pigs, maybe they’ll like the mud, but how much will their fodder cost? (That incidentally goes for cattle and lowland sheep too.)
Spuds an issue, too. One can't plant in a re-enactment of Third Wipers.
Brilliant. Only on PB could we have a link to Potato News Today. I have forwarded the link to HIGNFY for use in their next series.
Excellent publication, albeit it is (allegedly) just a front for Big Potato, and it's (allegedly) dastardly CEO, Mr. Potatohead.
Anyway, Potato News Today is all over THIS story, bird-dogged yesterday for PBers by yours truly:
PNT - Senators rally to defend the potato’s vegetable status amid USDA and HHS reclassification debate
In a striking show of unity, a group of 14 U.S. Senators has penned a letter to the heads of the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) and the Department of Health & Human Services (HHS), expressing vehement opposition to the potential reclassification of potatoes as grains in the forthcoming 2025-2030 Dietary Guidelines for Americans (DGAs).
The letter, addressed to Secretaries Tom Vilsack and Xavier Becerra, outlines a robust defense of the potato’s status as a vegetable.
SSI - Includes both senators from both Idaho ("Famous Potatoes") and Maine (another big spud producer).
Am personally curious to know why US Senator Patty Murray (D-WA) did NOT sign on, considering that a) her fellow WA US Sen. Maria Cantwell did, and WA Gov. Jay Inslee has also expressed support; and b) unlike Cantwell and Inslee, Patty is running for re-election in 2024.
I've never thought of potatoes as veg. More like pasta or rice.
Now I feel like I'm a weirdo.
Doesn't mean you are wrong. I said the first yesterday, and the second was what some of us said. But spuds would definitely fall on the bread etc or sitos side of the Ancient Greek opson/sitos dichotomy, had they known about spuds. Clever buggers, those Greeks.
Still wondering how some of us stave off scurvy and other diseases without eating their meat very fresh, very raw and very seal-y.
You don't get scurvy eating spuds. Indeed they constitute one of the larger sources of vitamin C in the British diet.
Sure, though the content is low and it's fairly marginal for some. However, I was referring to the fact that some of us won't even eat them.
@BartholomewRoberts glad you are back - so do you continue to support Israel despite the innocent people they keep murdering?
Innocents die in war, the difference between Israel and Hamas is that Hamas targets innocents deliberately. Israel does not, though will inevitably sometimes make mistakes.
Israel also owns up to its mistakes, Hamas do not.
Part of the reason why Israel are in every way better than Hamas and why I support Israel continuing the fighting until Hamas is completely destroyed.
Collateral damage is tragic but not murder.
It knew who these people were and targeted them.
Israel has not even apologised.
You are off the deep end. Please come home.
The fact you need to lie to make your point, rather shows how weak your argument is, even on what should be a strong ground for you.
From BBC Verify: The IDF chief of general staff Herzi Halevi has issued a statement calling the attack "a mistake that followed a misidentification at night… it shouldn't have happened".
He said an investigation into the incident would be completed "in the next coming days".
When Israel kills an innocent its a mistake and they launch investigations into what went wrong, same as any other western nation. Hamas targets innocents.
Hamas has only killed 1,700 people since 2008, even including 7/10.
You know full well, as many other people not myself, have made the point to you that the fake figures you keep peddling ignore eg Palestinians thrown off rooftops by Hamas etc
Or do Palestinian deaths mean nothing to you unless they're caused by Israelis?
You are a silly billy.
Renegade death cult ****s like Hamas should be measured on a different scale to a democratic Israel.
Your view since October 7th is that Israel can stop massacring foreign aid workers, women and children when off the scale bonkers, don't give a f*** death cult Hamas hand over their weapons, and that is is patently absurd.
I would have more time for Bibi if Hamas Grandees were falling out of Doha penthouse windows than Gaza hospitals were instead being levelled.
Renegade death cults like Hamas can't be negotiated with, they either kill or they need to be killed.
Israel can stop its war when the war is over. That is either when Hamas hands over their weapons, or when they're all dead. Neither has happened yet.
Israel has been killing Hamas leaders outside of Gaza too, I assume you have applauded them for this, right?
Its not either/or, they should be doing both - and are.
Paragraph.1. Correct, but proportionality has to be exercised
Paragraph 2. Hello, this is a f*****' death cult they don't follow the Geneva Convention!
Paragraph 3. If you mean precision strikes killing bastards with limited collateral, hell yes. Razing the Iranian consulate in another sovereign state to the ground, not so much unless the aim is a full regional conflict with US intervention.
1. Agreed - and Israel is exercising it.
2. Agreed - which is why they need to be defeated and can't be negotiated with and there should be no ceasefire.
3. Precision strikes with limited collateral is just unachievable nonsense. Any strike always has collateral.
1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich?
1. Yes it is. 2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes? 3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
That’s nonsense. Hamas are only limited by circumstance. They would wipe out every Jew in a heartbeat if they could.
I'm sure Israel have done a GREAT job of not creating a new generation of Jew haters.
Yes, they are rapidly creating the next army for Hamas. It’s not logical, and it’s self destructive behaviour.
I’d like to think that the two state solution would be the answer, but how they get there from here seems rather tricky.
They're not creating the next one at all, the next one already exists.
If there is a ceasefire and Gaza goes back to being blockaded, then the next one will exist.
The only way to end this cycle of violence is to break it. Total victory for Israel, the total destruction or unconditional surrender of Hamas, then a Marshall Plan style redevelopment for Palestinians so they have a bright future without wanting to throw their lives away killing Jews instead.
Can't have the latter without the former.
It would be easier to believe that would be the case if Israel were making the effort to provide sufficient food to civilians in the areas that they control.
The Israeli failure to provide sufficient food to civilians in areas that they control makes it hard not to think that their intended endgame is a Gaza without any Palestinians, rather than only without Hamas.
I think many in the IDF want to stop aid in order to starve Gaza into submission. Certainly their actions look very much like this.
I have no doubt that many in the IDF want exactly that. But thankfully Israel, like us, doesn't let the hotheads run the show.
The question to ask is absent the IDF, at what point would Hamas have stopped on October 7th.
Isn't the issue that the hotheads increasingly are running the show? In practice if not in theory.
No idea. I suppose in a perceived existential war the question is how hot is too hot.
That’s nonsense. Hamas are only limited by circumstance. They would wipe out every Jew in a heartbeat if they could.
I'm sure Israel have done a GREAT job of not creating a new generation of Jew haters.
Yes, they are rapidly creating the next army for Hamas. It’s not logical, and it’s self destructive behaviour.
I’d like to think that the two state solution would be the answer, but how they get there from here seems rather tricky.
They're not creating the next one at all, the next one already exists.
If there is a ceasefire and Gaza goes back to being blockaded, then the next one will exist.
The only way to end this cycle of violence is to break it. Total victory for Israel, the total destruction or unconditional surrender of Hamas, then a Marshall Plan style redevelopment for Palestinians so they have a bright future without wanting to throw their lives away killing Jews instead.
Can't have the latter without the former.
It would be easier to believe that would be the case if Israel were making the effort to provide sufficient food to civilians in the areas that they control.
The Israeli failure to provide sufficient food to civilians in areas that they control makes it hard not to think that their intended endgame is a Gaza without any Palestinians, rather than only without Hamas.
I think many in the IDF want to stop aid in order to starve Gaza into submission. Certainly their actions look very much like this.
I have no doubt that many in the IDF want exactly that. But thankfully Israel, like us, doesn't let the hotheads run the show.
The question to ask is absent the IDF, at what point would Hamas have stopped on October 7th.
According to the IDF, they killed 1,600 Hamas terrorists on 7/10 itself.
Why are you unable to accept the nature of Hamas? Yes Israel has gone way over the top, and it needs to stop. But that doesn’t make Hamas somehow a bit less evil, except that’s how you seem to see it.
Hamas are evil but the current strategy is not going to stop their evil ideology. It will just make it worse.
As for your point about them wanting to wipe all Jews off the planet, Israel ARE on the way to wiping all of Gaza out.
There’s a risk of forgetting that sometimes military victory does bring about peace.
The Soviets ‘wiped out’ Koenigsberg. Did it make the Nazi threat worse?
That’s nonsense. Hamas are only limited by circumstance. They would wipe out every Jew in a heartbeat if they could.
I'm sure Israel have done a GREAT job of not creating a new generation of Jew haters.
Yes, they are rapidly creating the next army for Hamas. It’s not logical, and it’s self destructive behaviour.
I’d like to think that the two state solution would be the answer, but how they get there from here seems rather tricky.
They're not creating the next one at all, the next one already exists.
If there is a ceasefire and Gaza goes back to being blockaded, then the next one will exist.
The only way to end this cycle of violence is to break it. Total victory for Israel, the total destruction or unconditional surrender of Hamas, then a Marshall Plan style redevelopment for Palestinians so they have a bright future without wanting to throw their lives away killing Jews instead.
Can't have the latter without the former.
It would be easier to believe that would be the case if Israel were making the effort to provide sufficient food to civilians in the areas that they control.
The Israeli failure to provide sufficient food to civilians in areas that they control makes it hard not to think that their intended endgame is a Gaza without any Palestinians, rather than only without Hamas.
I think many in the IDF want to stop aid in order to starve Gaza into submission. Certainly their actions look very much like this.
I have no doubt that many in the IDF want exactly that. But thankfully Israel, like us, doesn't let the hotheads run the show.
The question to ask is absent the IDF, at what point would Hamas have stopped on October 7th.
I think we'd already have reached the point where a lot of "common sense" people said that we'd taken enough Jewish refugees, alas.
That’s nonsense. Hamas are only limited by circumstance. They would wipe out every Jew in a heartbeat if they could.
I'm sure Israel have done a GREAT job of not creating a new generation of Jew haters.
Yes, they are rapidly creating the next army for Hamas. It’s not logical, and it’s self destructive behaviour.
I’d like to think that the two state solution would be the answer, but how they get there from here seems rather tricky.
They're not creating the next one at all, the next one already exists.
If there is a ceasefire and Gaza goes back to being blockaded, then the next one will exist.
The only way to end this cycle of violence is to break it. Total victory for Israel, the total destruction or unconditional surrender of Hamas, then a Marshall Plan style redevelopment for Palestinians so they have a bright future without wanting to throw their lives away killing Jews instead.
Can't have the latter without the former.
It would be easier to believe that would be the case if Israel were making the effort to provide sufficient food to civilians in the areas that they control.
The Israeli failure to provide sufficient food to civilians in areas that they control makes it hard not to think that their intended endgame is a Gaza without any Palestinians, rather than only without Hamas.
I think many in the IDF want to stop aid in order to starve Gaza into submission. Certainly their actions look very much like this.
I have no doubt that many in the IDF want exactly that. But thankfully Israel, like us, doesn't let the hotheads run the show.
The question to ask is absent the IDF, at what point would Hamas have stopped on October 7th.
According to the IDF, they killed 1,600 Hamas terrorists on 7/10 itself.
And what would have happened if they hadn't killed those terrorists do you think.
That’s nonsense. Hamas are only limited by circumstance. They would wipe out every Jew in a heartbeat if they could.
I'm sure Israel have done a GREAT job of not creating a new generation of Jew haters.
Yes, they are rapidly creating the next army for Hamas. It’s not logical, and it’s self destructive behaviour.
I’d like to think that the two state solution would be the answer, but how they get there from here seems rather tricky.
They're not creating the next one at all, the next one already exists.
If there is a ceasefire and Gaza goes back to being blockaded, then the next one will exist.
The only way to end this cycle of violence is to break it. Total victory for Israel, the total destruction or unconditional surrender of Hamas, then a Marshall Plan style redevelopment for Palestinians so they have a bright future without wanting to throw their lives away killing Jews instead.
Can't have the latter without the former.
It would be easier to believe that would be the case if Israel were making the effort to provide sufficient food to civilians in the areas that they control.
The Israeli failure to provide sufficient food to civilians in areas that they control makes it hard not to think that their intended endgame is a Gaza without any Palestinians, rather than only without Hamas.
I think many in the IDF want to stop aid in order to starve Gaza into submission. Certainly their actions look very much like this.
I have no doubt that many in the IDF want exactly that. But thankfully Israel, like us, doesn't let the hotheads run the show.
The question to ask is absent the IDF, at what point would Hamas have stopped on October 7th.
Certainly Hamas have a long record of war crimes, and are still committing them, but that doesn't excuse Israeli war crimes.
I think that Israel does let the hotheads run the show. After all many are in government there.
@BartholomewRoberts glad you are back - so do you continue to support Israel despite the innocent people they keep murdering?
Innocents die in war, the difference between Israel and Hamas is that Hamas targets innocents deliberately. Israel does not, though will inevitably sometimes make mistakes.
Israel also owns up to its mistakes, Hamas do not.
Part of the reason why Israel are in every way better than Hamas and why I support Israel continuing the fighting until Hamas is completely destroyed.
Collateral damage is tragic but not murder.
It knew who these people were and targeted them.
Israel has not even apologised.
You are off the deep end. Please come home.
The fact you need to lie to make your point, rather shows how weak your argument is, even on what should be a strong ground for you.
From BBC Verify: The IDF chief of general staff Herzi Halevi has issued a statement calling the attack "a mistake that followed a misidentification at night… it shouldn't have happened".
He said an investigation into the incident would be completed "in the next coming days".
When Israel kills an innocent its a mistake and they launch investigations into what went wrong, same as any other western nation. Hamas targets innocents.
Hamas has only killed 1,700 people since 2008, even including 7/10.
You know full well, as many other people not myself, have made the point to you that the fake figures you keep peddling ignore eg Palestinians thrown off rooftops by Hamas etc
Or do Palestinian deaths mean nothing to you unless they're caused by Israelis?
You are a silly billy.
Renegade death cult ****s like Hamas should be measured on a different scale to a democratic Israel.
Your view since October 7th is that Israel can stop massacring foreign aid workers, women and children when off the scale bonkers, don't give a f*** death cult Hamas hand over their weapons, and that is is patently absurd.
I would have more time for Bibi if Hamas Grandees were falling out of Doha penthouse windows than Gaza hospitals were instead being levelled.
Renegade death cults like Hamas can't be negotiated with, they either kill or they need to be killed.
Israel can stop its war when the war is over. That is either when Hamas hands over their weapons, or when they're all dead. Neither has happened yet.
Israel has been killing Hamas leaders outside of Gaza too, I assume you have applauded them for this, right?
Its not either/or, they should be doing both - and are.
Paragraph.1. Correct, but proportionality has to be exercised
Paragraph 2. Hello, this is a f*****' death cult they don't follow the Geneva Convention!
Paragraph 3. If you mean precision strikes killing bastards with limited collateral, hell yes. Razing the Iranian consulate in another sovereign state to the ground, not so much unless the aim is a full regional conflict with US intervention.
1. Agreed - and Israel is exercising it.
2. Agreed - which is why they need to be defeated and can't be negotiated with and there should be no ceasefire.
3. Precision strikes with limited collateral is just unachievable nonsense. Any strike always has collateral.
1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich?
Wasn't everyone saying they shouldn't bomb Gaza but go after the leaders of Hamas instead. Isn't that the basis of their supposed extra-territorial strikes.
They can't win, eh.
There's going after bastards covertly on foreign sovereign land which is fine, and there is blowing up sovereign bastard's consulates on other sovereign nation's land.
I thought being a military strategist you'd know this.
Don't forget that Israel is facing an environment whereby that noted paragon of virtue aid agency Oxfam was posting about the Brazilian grain harvest on October 6th and the very next post was calling for a ceasefire in Gaza on October 13th. October 7th went somehow unremarked upon.
That is the tragedy of the WCK incident. The WCK was one of the first aid agencies to come to the aid of the Israelis on October 7th.
That’s nonsense. Hamas are only limited by circumstance. They would wipe out every Jew in a heartbeat if they could.
I'm sure Israel have done a GREAT job of not creating a new generation of Jew haters.
Yes, they are rapidly creating the next army for Hamas. It’s not logical, and it’s self destructive behaviour.
I’d like to think that the two state solution would be the answer, but how they get there from here seems rather tricky.
They're not creating the next one at all, the next one already exists.
If there is a ceasefire and Gaza goes back to being blockaded, then the next one will exist.
The only way to end this cycle of violence is to break it. Total victory for Israel, the total destruction or unconditional surrender of Hamas, then a Marshall Plan style redevelopment for Palestinians so they have a bright future without wanting to throw their lives away killing Jews instead.
Can't have the latter without the former.
It would be easier to believe that would be the case if Israel were making the effort to provide sufficient food to civilians in the areas that they control.
The Israeli failure to provide sufficient food to civilians in areas that they control makes it hard not to think that their intended endgame is a Gaza without any Palestinians, rather than only without Hamas.
I think many in the IDF want to stop aid in order to starve Gaza into submission. Certainly their actions look very much like this.
I have no doubt that many in the IDF want exactly that. But thankfully Israel, like us, doesn't let the hotheads run the show.
The question to ask is absent the IDF, at what point would Hamas have stopped on October 7th.
Certainly Hamas have a long record of war crimes, and are still committing them, but that doesn't excuse Israeli war crimes.
I think that Israel does let the hotheads run the show. After all many are in government there.
I fear Israel is increasingly becoming a religious state, what with Bibi invoking the Biblical passages mentioning Amalek, and the general West Bank Settler rhetoric of "God gave us this land, so there".
@BartholomewRoberts glad you are back - so do you continue to support Israel despite the innocent people they keep murdering?
Innocents die in war, the difference between Israel and Hamas is that Hamas targets innocents deliberately. Israel does not, though will inevitably sometimes make mistakes.
Israel also owns up to its mistakes, Hamas do not.
Part of the reason why Israel are in every way better than Hamas and why I support Israel continuing the fighting until Hamas is completely destroyed.
Collateral damage is tragic but not murder.
It knew who these people were and targeted them.
Israel has not even apologised.
You are off the deep end. Please come home.
The fact you need to lie to make your point, rather shows how weak your argument is, even on what should be a strong ground for you.
From BBC Verify: The IDF chief of general staff Herzi Halevi has issued a statement calling the attack "a mistake that followed a misidentification at night… it shouldn't have happened".
He said an investigation into the incident would be completed "in the next coming days".
When Israel kills an innocent its a mistake and they launch investigations into what went wrong, same as any other western nation. Hamas targets innocents.
Hamas has only killed 1,700 people since 2008, even including 7/10.
You know full well, as many other people not myself, have made the point to you that the fake figures you keep peddling ignore eg Palestinians thrown off rooftops by Hamas etc
Or do Palestinian deaths mean nothing to you unless they're caused by Israelis?
You are a silly billy.
Renegade death cult ****s like Hamas should be measured on a different scale to a democratic Israel.
Your view since October 7th is that Israel can stop massacring foreign aid workers, women and children when off the scale bonkers, don't give a f*** death cult Hamas hand over their weapons, and that is is patently absurd.
I would have more time for Bibi if Hamas Grandees were falling out of Doha penthouse windows than Gaza hospitals were instead being levelled.
Renegade death cults like Hamas can't be negotiated with, they either kill or they need to be killed.
Israel can stop its war when the war is over. That is either when Hamas hands over their weapons, or when they're all dead. Neither has happened yet.
Israel has been killing Hamas leaders outside of Gaza too, I assume you have applauded them for this, right?
Its not either/or, they should be doing both - and are.
Paragraph.1. Correct, but proportionality has to be exercised
Paragraph 2. Hello, this is a f*****' death cult they don't follow the Geneva Convention!
Paragraph 3. If you mean precision strikes killing bastards with limited collateral, hell yes. Razing the Iranian consulate in another sovereign state to the ground, not so much unless the aim is a full regional conflict with US intervention.
1. Agreed - and Israel is exercising it.
2. Agreed - which is why they need to be defeated and can't be negotiated with and there should be no ceasefire.
3. Precision strikes with limited collateral is just unachievable nonsense. Any strike always has collateral.
1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich?
Wasn't everyone saying they shouldn't bomb Gaza but go after the leaders of Hamas instead. Isn't that the basis of their supposed extra-territorial strikes.
They can't win, eh.
There's going after bastards covertly on foreign sovereign land which is fine, and there is blowing up sovereign bastard's consulates on other sovereign nation's land.
I thought being a military strategist you'd know this.
So you want James Bond nonsense only.
Covertly going after a couple of people may be possible, though its time consuming and difficult and expensive.
Trying to defeat an enemy institution requires much more.
Anyone out of window following your policy would be immediately replaced as they'd be so far between each one.
That’s nonsense. Hamas are only limited by circumstance. They would wipe out every Jew in a heartbeat if they could.
I'm sure Israel have done a GREAT job of not creating a new generation of Jew haters.
Yes, they are rapidly creating the next army for Hamas. It’s not logical, and it’s self destructive behaviour.
I’d like to think that the two state solution would be the answer, but how they get there from here seems rather tricky.
They're not creating the next one at all, the next one already exists.
If there is a ceasefire and Gaza goes back to being blockaded, then the next one will exist.
The only way to end this cycle of violence is to break it. Total victory for Israel, the total destruction or unconditional surrender of Hamas, then a Marshall Plan style redevelopment for Palestinians so they have a bright future without wanting to throw their lives away killing Jews instead.
Can't have the latter without the former.
It would be easier to believe that would be the case if Israel were making the effort to provide sufficient food to civilians in the areas that they control.
The Israeli failure to provide sufficient food to civilians in areas that they control makes it hard not to think that their intended endgame is a Gaza without any Palestinians, rather than only without Hamas.
I think many in the IDF want to stop aid in order to starve Gaza into submission. Certainly their actions look very much like this.
I have no doubt that many in the IDF want exactly that. But thankfully Israel, like us, doesn't let the hotheads run the show.
The question to ask is absent the IDF, at what point would Hamas have stopped on October 7th.
Certainly Hamas have a long record of war crimes, and are still committing them, but that doesn't excuse Israeli war crimes.
I think that Israel does let the hotheads run the show. After all many are in government there.
It's a wartime government wherein difficult decisions must be made.
That’s nonsense. Hamas are only limited by circumstance. They would wipe out every Jew in a heartbeat if they could.
I'm sure Israel have done a GREAT job of not creating a new generation of Jew haters.
Yes, they are rapidly creating the next army for Hamas. It’s not logical, and it’s self destructive behaviour.
I’d like to think that the two state solution would be the answer, but how they get there from here seems rather tricky.
They're not creating the next one at all, the next one already exists.
If there is a ceasefire and Gaza goes back to being blockaded, then the next one will exist.
The only way to end this cycle of violence is to break it. Total victory for Israel, the total destruction or unconditional surrender of Hamas, then a Marshall Plan style redevelopment for Palestinians so they have a bright future without wanting to throw their lives away killing Jews instead.
Can't have the latter without the former.
It would be easier to believe that would be the case if Israel were making the effort to provide sufficient food to civilians in the areas that they control.
The Israeli failure to provide sufficient food to civilians in areas that they control makes it hard not to think that their intended endgame is a Gaza without any Palestinians, rather than only without Hamas.
I think many in the IDF want to stop aid in order to starve Gaza into submission. Certainly their actions look very much like this.
I have no doubt that many in the IDF want exactly that. But thankfully Israel, like us, doesn't let the hotheads run the show.
The question to ask is absent the IDF, at what point would Hamas have stopped on October 7th.
According to the IDF, they killed 1,600 Hamas terrorists on 7/10 itself.
And what would have happened if they hadn't killed those terrorists do you think.
It would be a funny "Defence" force that neglected to fight back against the initial incursion, would it not?
That’s nonsense. Hamas are only limited by circumstance. They would wipe out every Jew in a heartbeat if they could.
I'm sure Israel have done a GREAT job of not creating a new generation of Jew haters.
Yes, they are rapidly creating the next army for Hamas. It’s not logical, and it’s self destructive behaviour.
I’d like to think that the two state solution would be the answer, but how they get there from here seems rather tricky.
They're not creating the next one at all, the next one already exists.
If there is a ceasefire and Gaza goes back to being blockaded, then the next one will exist.
The only way to end this cycle of violence is to break it. Total victory for Israel, the total destruction or unconditional surrender of Hamas, then a Marshall Plan style redevelopment for Palestinians so they have a bright future without wanting to throw their lives away killing Jews instead.
Can't have the latter without the former.
It would be easier to believe that would be the case if Israel were making the effort to provide sufficient food to civilians in the areas that they control.
The Israeli failure to provide sufficient food to civilians in areas that they control makes it hard not to think that their intended endgame is a Gaza without any Palestinians, rather than only without Hamas.
I think many in the IDF want to stop aid in order to starve Gaza into submission. Certainly their actions look very much like this.
I have no doubt that many in the IDF want exactly that. But thankfully Israel, like us, doesn't let the hotheads run the show.
The question to ask is absent the IDF, at what point would Hamas have stopped on October 7th.
Isn't the issue that the hotheads increasingly are running the show? In practice if not in theory.
No idea. I suppose in a perceived existential war the question is how hot is too hot.
If anything goes in an existential war, then surely that applies to Hamas too?
That’s nonsense. Hamas are only limited by circumstance. They would wipe out every Jew in a heartbeat if they could.
I'm sure Israel have done a GREAT job of not creating a new generation of Jew haters.
Yes, they are rapidly creating the next army for Hamas. It’s not logical, and it’s self destructive behaviour.
I’d like to think that the two state solution would be the answer, but how they get there from here seems rather tricky.
They're not creating the next one at all, the next one already exists.
If there is a ceasefire and Gaza goes back to being blockaded, then the next one will exist.
The only way to end this cycle of violence is to break it. Total victory for Israel, the total destruction or unconditional surrender of Hamas, then a Marshall Plan style redevelopment for Palestinians so they have a bright future without wanting to throw their lives away killing Jews instead.
Can't have the latter without the former.
It would be easier to believe that would be the case if Israel were making the effort to provide sufficient food to civilians in the areas that they control.
The Israeli failure to provide sufficient food to civilians in areas that they control makes it hard not to think that their intended endgame is a Gaza without any Palestinians, rather than only without Hamas.
I think many in the IDF want to stop aid in order to starve Gaza into submission. Certainly their actions look very much like this.
I have no doubt that many in the IDF want exactly that. But thankfully Israel, like us, doesn't let the hotheads run the show.
The question to ask is absent the IDF, at what point would Hamas have stopped on October 7th.
According to the IDF, they killed 1,600 Hamas terrorists on 7/10 itself.
And what would have happened if they hadn't killed those terrorists do you think.
It would be a funny "Defence" force that neglected to fight back against the initial incursion, would it not?
Initial terrorist mass slaughter would be a better phrase than the anodyne ‘initial incursion’.
@BartholomewRoberts glad you are back - so do you continue to support Israel despite the innocent people they keep murdering?
Innocents die in war, the difference between Israel and Hamas is that Hamas targets innocents deliberately. Israel does not, though will inevitably sometimes make mistakes.
Israel also owns up to its mistakes, Hamas do not.
Part of the reason why Israel are in every way better than Hamas and why I support Israel continuing the fighting until Hamas is completely destroyed.
Collateral damage is tragic but not murder.
It knew who these people were and targeted them.
Israel has not even apologised.
You are off the deep end. Please come home.
The fact you need to lie to make your point, rather shows how weak your argument is, even on what should be a strong ground for you.
From BBC Verify: The IDF chief of general staff Herzi Halevi has issued a statement calling the attack "a mistake that followed a misidentification at night… it shouldn't have happened".
He said an investigation into the incident would be completed "in the next coming days".
When Israel kills an innocent its a mistake and they launch investigations into what went wrong, same as any other western nation. Hamas targets innocents.
Hamas has only killed 1,700 people since 2008, even including 7/10.
You know full well, as many other people not myself, have made the point to you that the fake figures you keep peddling ignore eg Palestinians thrown off rooftops by Hamas etc
Or do Palestinian deaths mean nothing to you unless they're caused by Israelis?
You are a silly billy.
Renegade death cult ****s like Hamas should be measured on a different scale to a democratic Israel.
Your view since October 7th is that Israel can stop massacring foreign aid workers, women and children when off the scale bonkers, don't give a f*** death cult Hamas hand over their weapons, and that is is patently absurd.
I would have more time for Bibi if Hamas Grandees were falling out of Doha penthouse windows than Gaza hospitals were instead being levelled.
Renegade death cults like Hamas can't be negotiated with, they either kill or they need to be killed.
Israel can stop its war when the war is over. That is either when Hamas hands over their weapons, or when they're all dead. Neither has happened yet.
Israel has been killing Hamas leaders outside of Gaza too, I assume you have applauded them for this, right?
Its not either/or, they should be doing both - and are.
Paragraph.1. Correct, but proportionality has to be exercised
Paragraph 2. Hello, this is a f*****' death cult they don't follow the Geneva Convention!
Paragraph 3. If you mean precision strikes killing bastards with limited collateral, hell yes. Razing the Iranian consulate in another sovereign state to the ground, not so much unless the aim is a full regional conflict with US intervention.
1. Agreed - and Israel is exercising it.
2. Agreed - which is why they need to be defeated and can't be negotiated with and there should be no ceasefire.
3. Precision strikes with limited collateral is just unachievable nonsense. Any strike always has collateral.
1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich?
1. Yes it is. 2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes? 3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
I'm an hour ahead of you so I"m off up the wooden stairs to Bedfordshire to mull over the thoughtless shite you have just written. TTFN Bart (and Topping).
@BartholomewRoberts glad you are back - so do you continue to support Israel despite the innocent people they keep murdering?
Innocents die in war, the difference between Israel and Hamas is that Hamas targets innocents deliberately. Israel does not, though will inevitably sometimes make mistakes.
Israel also owns up to its mistakes, Hamas do not.
Part of the reason why Israel are in every way better than Hamas and why I support Israel continuing the fighting until Hamas is completely destroyed.
Collateral damage is tragic but not murder.
It knew who these people were and targeted them.
Israel has not even apologised.
You are off the deep end. Please come home.
The fact you need to lie to make your point, rather shows how weak your argument is, even on what should be a strong ground for you.
From BBC Verify: The IDF chief of general staff Herzi Halevi has issued a statement calling the attack "a mistake that followed a misidentification at night… it shouldn't have happened".
He said an investigation into the incident would be completed "in the next coming days".
When Israel kills an innocent its a mistake and they launch investigations into what went wrong, same as any other western nation. Hamas targets innocents.
Hamas has only killed 1,700 people since 2008, even including 7/10.
You know full well, as many other people not myself, have made the point to you that the fake figures you keep peddling ignore eg Palestinians thrown off rooftops by Hamas etc
Or do Palestinian deaths mean nothing to you unless they're caused by Israelis?
You are a silly billy.
Renegade death cult ****s like Hamas should be measured on a different scale to a democratic Israel.
Your view since October 7th is that Israel can stop massacring foreign aid workers, women and children when off the scale bonkers, don't give a f*** death cult Hamas hand over their weapons, and that is is patently absurd.
I would have more time for Bibi if Hamas Grandees were falling out of Doha penthouse windows than Gaza hospitals were instead being levelled.
Renegade death cults like Hamas can't be negotiated with, they either kill or they need to be killed.
Israel can stop its war when the war is over. That is either when Hamas hands over their weapons, or when they're all dead. Neither has happened yet.
Israel has been killing Hamas leaders outside of Gaza too, I assume you have applauded them for this, right?
Its not either/or, they should be doing both - and are.
Paragraph.1. Correct, but proportionality has to be exercised
Paragraph 2. Hello, this is a f*****' death cult they don't follow the Geneva Convention!
Paragraph 3. If you mean precision strikes killing bastards with limited collateral, hell yes. Razing the Iranian consulate in another sovereign state to the ground, not so much unless the aim is a full regional conflict with US intervention.
1. Agreed - and Israel is exercising it.
2. Agreed - which is why they need to be defeated and can't be negotiated with and there should be no ceasefire.
3. Precision strikes with limited collateral is just unachievable nonsense. Any strike always has collateral.
1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich?
Wasn't everyone saying they shouldn't bomb Gaza but go after the leaders of Hamas instead. Isn't that the basis of their supposed extra-territorial strikes.
They can't win, eh.
There's going after bastards covertly on foreign sovereign land which is fine, and there is blowing up sovereign bastard's consulates on other sovereign nation's land.
I thought being a military strategist you'd know this.
Oh I bow to the superior PB knowledge of war fighting. If you could possibly drop me a copy of the rules of engagement or perhaps post them here for everyone to see then at least we can all understand what actions are right and proper and which ones are beyond the pale.
That’s nonsense. Hamas are only limited by circumstance. They would wipe out every Jew in a heartbeat if they could.
I'm sure Israel have done a GREAT job of not creating a new generation of Jew haters.
Yes, they are rapidly creating the next army for Hamas. It’s not logical, and it’s self destructive behaviour.
I’d like to think that the two state solution would be the answer, but how they get there from here seems rather tricky.
They're not creating the next one at all, the next one already exists.
If there is a ceasefire and Gaza goes back to being blockaded, then the next one will exist.
The only way to end this cycle of violence is to break it. Total victory for Israel, the total destruction or unconditional surrender of Hamas, then a Marshall Plan style redevelopment for Palestinians so they have a bright future without wanting to throw their lives away killing Jews instead.
Can't have the latter without the former.
It would be easier to believe that would be the case if Israel were making the effort to provide sufficient food to civilians in the areas that they control.
The Israeli failure to provide sufficient food to civilians in areas that they control makes it hard not to think that their intended endgame is a Gaza without any Palestinians, rather than only without Hamas.
I think many in the IDF want to stop aid in order to starve Gaza into submission. Certainly their actions look very much like this.
I have no doubt that many in the IDF want exactly that. But thankfully Israel, like us, doesn't let the hotheads run the show.
The question to ask is absent the IDF, at what point would Hamas have stopped on October 7th.
Isn't the issue that the hotheads increasingly are running the show? In practice if not in theory.
No idea. I suppose in a perceived existential war the question is how hot is too hot.
If anything goes in an existential war, then surely that applies to Hamas too?
That’s nonsense. Hamas are only limited by circumstance. They would wipe out every Jew in a heartbeat if they could.
I'm sure Israel have done a GREAT job of not creating a new generation of Jew haters.
Yes, they are rapidly creating the next army for Hamas. It’s not logical, and it’s self destructive behaviour.
I’d like to think that the two state solution would be the answer, but how they get there from here seems rather tricky.
They're not creating the next one at all, the next one already exists.
If there is a ceasefire and Gaza goes back to being blockaded, then the next one will exist.
The only way to end this cycle of violence is to break it. Total victory for Israel, the total destruction or unconditional surrender of Hamas, then a Marshall Plan style redevelopment for Palestinians so they have a bright future without wanting to throw their lives away killing Jews instead.
Can't have the latter without the former.
It would be easier to believe that would be the case if Israel were making the effort to provide sufficient food to civilians in the areas that they control.
The Israeli failure to provide sufficient food to civilians in areas that they control makes it hard not to think that their intended endgame is a Gaza without any Palestinians, rather than only without Hamas.
I think many in the IDF want to stop aid in order to starve Gaza into submission. Certainly their actions look very much like this.
I have no doubt that many in the IDF want exactly that. But thankfully Israel, like us, doesn't let the hotheads run the show.
The question to ask is absent the IDF, at what point would Hamas have stopped on October 7th.
According to the IDF, they killed 1,600 Hamas terrorists on 7/10 itself.
And what would have happened if they hadn't killed those terrorists do you think.
It would be a funny "Defence" force that neglected to fight back against the initial incursion, would it not?
Not my point. I'm asking what you think would have happened without any IDF response. At what point would Hamas have stopped. Or would it only have been an out of ammo situation.
That’s nonsense. Hamas are only limited by circumstance. They would wipe out every Jew in a heartbeat if they could.
I'm sure Israel have done a GREAT job of not creating a new generation of Jew haters.
Yes, they are rapidly creating the next army for Hamas. It’s not logical, and it’s self destructive behaviour.
I’d like to think that the two state solution would be the answer, but how they get there from here seems rather tricky.
They're not creating the next one at all, the next one already exists.
If there is a ceasefire and Gaza goes back to being blockaded, then the next one will exist.
The only way to end this cycle of violence is to break it. Total victory for Israel, the total destruction or unconditional surrender of Hamas, then a Marshall Plan style redevelopment for Palestinians so they have a bright future without wanting to throw their lives away killing Jews instead.
Can't have the latter without the former.
It would be easier to believe that would be the case if Israel were making the effort to provide sufficient food to civilians in the areas that they control.
The Israeli failure to provide sufficient food to civilians in areas that they control makes it hard not to think that their intended endgame is a Gaza without any Palestinians, rather than only without Hamas.
I think many in the IDF want to stop aid in order to starve Gaza into submission. Certainly their actions look very much like this.
I have no doubt that many in the IDF want exactly that. But thankfully Israel, like us, doesn't let the hotheads run the show.
The question to ask is absent the IDF, at what point would Hamas have stopped on October 7th.
According to the IDF, they killed 1,600 Hamas terrorists on 7/10 itself.
And what would have happened if they hadn't killed those terrorists do you think.
It would be a funny "Defence" force that neglected to fight back against the initial incursion, would it not?
Not my point. I'm asking what you think would have happened without any IDF response. At what point would Hamas have stopped. Or would it only have been an out of ammo situation.
But the IDF was around that day. You'd might as well ask "What do you think would have happened if the Sun exploded?".
That’s nonsense. Hamas are only limited by circumstance. They would wipe out every Jew in a heartbeat if they could.
I'm sure Israel have done a GREAT job of not creating a new generation of Jew haters.
Yes, they are rapidly creating the next army for Hamas. It’s not logical, and it’s self destructive behaviour.
I’d like to think that the two state solution would be the answer, but how they get there from here seems rather tricky.
They're not creating the next one at all, the next one already exists.
If there is a ceasefire and Gaza goes back to being blockaded, then the next one will exist.
The only way to end this cycle of violence is to break it. Total victory for Israel, the total destruction or unconditional surrender of Hamas, then a Marshall Plan style redevelopment for Palestinians so they have a bright future without wanting to throw their lives away killing Jews instead.
Can't have the latter without the former.
It would be easier to believe that would be the case if Israel were making the effort to provide sufficient food to civilians in the areas that they control.
The Israeli failure to provide sufficient food to civilians in areas that they control makes it hard not to think that their intended endgame is a Gaza without any Palestinians, rather than only without Hamas.
I think many in the IDF want to stop aid in order to starve Gaza into submission. Certainly their actions look very much like this.
I have no doubt that many in the IDF want exactly that. But thankfully Israel, like us, doesn't let the hotheads run the show.
The question to ask is absent the IDF, at what point would Hamas have stopped on October 7th.
According to the IDF, they killed 1,600 Hamas terrorists on 7/10 itself.
And what would have happened if they hadn't killed those terrorists do you think.
It would be a funny "Defence" force that neglected to fight back against the initial incursion, would it not?
Not my point. I'm asking what you think would have happened without any IDF response. At what point would Hamas have stopped. Or would it only have been an out of ammo situation.
There’s always knives. And rocks, they quite a stoning round those parts too.
@BartholomewRoberts glad you are back - so do you continue to support Israel despite the innocent people they keep murdering?
Innocents die in war, the difference between Israel and Hamas is that Hamas targets innocents deliberately. Israel does not, though will inevitably sometimes make mistakes.
Israel also owns up to its mistakes, Hamas do not.
Part of the reason why Israel are in every way better than Hamas and why I support Israel continuing the fighting until Hamas is completely destroyed.
Collateral damage is tragic but not murder.
It knew who these people were and targeted them.
Israel has not even apologised.
You are off the deep end. Please come home.
The fact you need to lie to make your point, rather shows how weak your argument is, even on what should be a strong ground for you.
From BBC Verify: The IDF chief of general staff Herzi Halevi has issued a statement calling the attack "a mistake that followed a misidentification at night… it shouldn't have happened".
He said an investigation into the incident would be completed "in the next coming days".
When Israel kills an innocent its a mistake and they launch investigations into what went wrong, same as any other western nation. Hamas targets innocents.
Hamas has only killed 1,700 people since 2008, even including 7/10.
You know full well, as many other people not myself, have made the point to you that the fake figures you keep peddling ignore eg Palestinians thrown off rooftops by Hamas etc
Or do Palestinian deaths mean nothing to you unless they're caused by Israelis?
You are a silly billy.
Renegade death cult ****s like Hamas should be measured on a different scale to a democratic Israel.
Your view since October 7th is that Israel can stop massacring foreign aid workers, women and children when off the scale bonkers, don't give a f*** death cult Hamas hand over their weapons, and that is is patently absurd.
I would have more time for Bibi if Hamas Grandees were falling out of Doha penthouse windows than Gaza hospitals were instead being levelled.
Renegade death cults like Hamas can't be negotiated with, they either kill or they need to be killed.
Israel can stop its war when the war is over. That is either when Hamas hands over their weapons, or when they're all dead. Neither has happened yet.
Israel has been killing Hamas leaders outside of Gaza too, I assume you have applauded them for this, right?
Its not either/or, they should be doing both - and are.
Paragraph.1. Correct, but proportionality has to be exercised
Paragraph 2. Hello, this is a f*****' death cult they don't follow the Geneva Convention!
Paragraph 3. If you mean precision strikes killing bastards with limited collateral, hell yes. Razing the Iranian consulate in another sovereign state to the ground, not so much unless the aim is a full regional conflict with US intervention.
1. Agreed - and Israel is exercising it.
2. Agreed - which is why they need to be defeated and can't be negotiated with and there should be no ceasefire.
3. Precision strikes with limited collateral is just unachievable nonsense. Any strike always has collateral.
1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich?
Wasn't everyone saying they shouldn't bomb Gaza but go after the leaders of Hamas instead. Isn't that the basis of their supposed extra-territorial strikes.
They can't win, eh.
There's going after bastards covertly on foreign sovereign land which is fine, and there is blowing up sovereign bastard's consulates on other sovereign nation's land.
I thought being a military strategist you'd know this.
So you want James Bond nonsense only.
Covertly going after a couple of people may be possible, though its time consuming and difficult and expensive.
Trying to defeat an enemy institution requires much more.
Anyone out of window following your policy would be immediately replaced as they'd be so far between each one.
So you are going for full fat ethnic cleansing. There, you've spelled it out. Thanks.
That’s nonsense. Hamas are only limited by circumstance. They would wipe out every Jew in a heartbeat if they could.
I'm sure Israel have done a GREAT job of not creating a new generation of Jew haters.
Yes, they are rapidly creating the next army for Hamas. It’s not logical, and it’s self destructive behaviour.
I’d like to think that the two state solution would be the answer, but how they get there from here seems rather tricky.
They're not creating the next one at all, the next one already exists.
If there is a ceasefire and Gaza goes back to being blockaded, then the next one will exist.
The only way to end this cycle of violence is to break it. Total victory for Israel, the total destruction or unconditional surrender of Hamas, then a Marshall Plan style redevelopment for Palestinians so they have a bright future without wanting to throw their lives away killing Jews instead.
Can't have the latter without the former.
It would be easier to believe that would be the case if Israel were making the effort to provide sufficient food to civilians in the areas that they control.
The Israeli failure to provide sufficient food to civilians in areas that they control makes it hard not to think that their intended endgame is a Gaza without any Palestinians, rather than only without Hamas.
I think many in the IDF want to stop aid in order to starve Gaza into submission. Certainly their actions look very much like this.
I have no doubt that many in the IDF want exactly that. But thankfully Israel, like us, doesn't let the hotheads run the show.
The question to ask is absent the IDF, at what point would Hamas have stopped on October 7th.
According to the IDF, they killed 1,600 Hamas terrorists on 7/10 itself.
And what would have happened if they hadn't killed those terrorists do you think.
It would be a funny "Defence" force that neglected to fight back against the initial incursion, would it not?
Not my point. I'm asking what you think would have happened without any IDF response. At what point would Hamas have stopped. Or would it only have been an out of ammo situation.
But the IDF was around that day. You'd might as well ask "What do you think would have happened if the Sun exploded?".
Because you persist in linking how evil a regime is to the kill score, rather than the intent. Others contend that Hamas would kill all the Jews if they could. However bad the current situation in Gaza is, I don’t think Israel wants to murder all the millions living there. Even if you believe that they are using hunger as a weapon (seems likely) it’s being done for a reason.
That’s nonsense. Hamas are only limited by circumstance. They would wipe out every Jew in a heartbeat if they could.
I'm sure Israel have done a GREAT job of not creating a new generation of Jew haters.
Yes, they are rapidly creating the next army for Hamas. It’s not logical, and it’s self destructive behaviour.
I’d like to think that the two state solution would be the answer, but how they get there from here seems rather tricky.
They're not creating the next one at all, the next one already exists.
If there is a ceasefire and Gaza goes back to being blockaded, then the next one will exist.
The only way to end this cycle of violence is to break it. Total victory for Israel, the total destruction or unconditional surrender of Hamas, then a Marshall Plan style redevelopment for Palestinians so they have a bright future without wanting to throw their lives away killing Jews instead.
Can't have the latter without the former.
It would be easier to believe that would be the case if Israel were making the effort to provide sufficient food to civilians in the areas that they control.
The Israeli failure to provide sufficient food to civilians in areas that they control makes it hard not to think that their intended endgame is a Gaza without any Palestinians, rather than only without Hamas.
I think many in the IDF want to stop aid in order to starve Gaza into submission. Certainly their actions look very much like this.
I have no doubt that many in the IDF want exactly that. But thankfully Israel, like us, doesn't let the hotheads run the show.
The question to ask is absent the IDF, at what point would Hamas have stopped on October 7th.
According to the IDF, they killed 1,600 Hamas terrorists on 7/10 itself.
And what would have happened if they hadn't killed those terrorists do you think.
It would be a funny "Defence" force that neglected to fight back against the initial incursion, would it not?
Not my point. I'm asking what you think would have happened without any IDF response. At what point would Hamas have stopped. Or would it only have been an out of ammo situation.
But the IDF was around that day. You'd might as well ask "What do you think would have happened if the Sun exploded?".
Okay fair enough I'm not going to do a Paxman on you and keep asking.
That you refuse to answer is itself the answer.
Your heroes would have kept on killing until they ran out of the means to do so. Although as @turbotubbs had noted there are plenty of rocks around which might have prolonged things.
That’s nonsense. Hamas are only limited by circumstance. They would wipe out every Jew in a heartbeat if they could.
I'm sure Israel have done a GREAT job of not creating a new generation of Jew haters.
Yes, they are rapidly creating the next army for Hamas. It’s not logical, and it’s self destructive behaviour.
I’d like to think that the two state solution would be the answer, but how they get there from here seems rather tricky.
They're not creating the next one at all, the next one already exists.
If there is a ceasefire and Gaza goes back to being blockaded, then the next one will exist.
The only way to end this cycle of violence is to break it. Total victory for Israel, the total destruction or unconditional surrender of Hamas, then a Marshall Plan style redevelopment for Palestinians so they have a bright future without wanting to throw their lives away killing Jews instead.
Can't have the latter without the former.
It would be easier to believe that would be the case if Israel were making the effort to provide sufficient food to civilians in the areas that they control.
The Israeli failure to provide sufficient food to civilians in areas that they control makes it hard not to think that their intended endgame is a Gaza without any Palestinians, rather than only without Hamas.
I think many in the IDF want to stop aid in order to starve Gaza into submission. Certainly their actions look very much like this.
I have no doubt that many in the IDF want exactly that. But thankfully Israel, like us, doesn't let the hotheads run the show.
The question to ask is absent the IDF, at what point would Hamas have stopped on October 7th.
According to the IDF, they killed 1,600 Hamas terrorists on 7/10 itself.
And what would have happened if they hadn't killed those terrorists do you think.
It would be a funny "Defence" force that neglected to fight back against the initial incursion, would it not?
Not my point. I'm asking what you think would have happened without any IDF response. At what point would Hamas have stopped. Or would it only have been an out of ammo situation.
But the IDF was around that day. You'd might as well ask "What do you think would have happened if the Sun exploded?".
Because you persist in linking how evil a regime is to the kill score, rather than the intent. Others contend that Hamas would kill all the Jews if they could. However bad the current situation in Gaza is, I don’t think Israel wants to murder all the millions living there. Even if you believe that they are using hunger as a weapon (seems likely) it’s being done for a reason.
There are still lots of hostages held by Hamas.
And there are thousands of people currently held without charge by Israel...
You are delusional if you think they don't, or can be negotiated with.
I've proposed a solution to this cycle of violence, you have not.
You are just delusional, with no solutions.
So you think the US and UK are also delusional with no solutions?
Yes.
I think they're pandering to people like you, safe in the knowledge that they don't need to come up with a solution themselves.
You are unhinged.
It's all that meat the lad eats. If he'd just chill and eat a bit of smashed avo, he'd be much happier.
Avocados are the fruit of the devil. Well, of the drug cartels at least.
I fecking hate the stuff. I must be the only vegan on the planet that never touches them. I just use them as the stereotypical vegan food of choice. They trigger non plant botherers something awful!
That’s nonsense. Hamas are only limited by circumstance. They would wipe out every Jew in a heartbeat if they could.
I'm sure Israel have done a GREAT job of not creating a new generation of Jew haters.
Yes, they are rapidly creating the next army for Hamas. It’s not logical, and it’s self destructive behaviour.
I’d like to think that the two state solution would be the answer, but how they get there from here seems rather tricky.
They're not creating the next one at all, the next one already exists.
If there is a ceasefire and Gaza goes back to being blockaded, then the next one will exist.
The only way to end this cycle of violence is to break it. Total victory for Israel, the total destruction or unconditional surrender of Hamas, then a Marshall Plan style redevelopment for Palestinians so they have a bright future without wanting to throw their lives away killing Jews instead.
Can't have the latter without the former.
It would be easier to believe that would be the case if Israel were making the effort to provide sufficient food to civilians in the areas that they control.
The Israeli failure to provide sufficient food to civilians in areas that they control makes it hard not to think that their intended endgame is a Gaza without any Palestinians, rather than only without Hamas.
I think many in the IDF want to stop aid in order to starve Gaza into submission. Certainly their actions look very much like this.
I have no doubt that many in the IDF want exactly that. But thankfully Israel, like us, doesn't let the hotheads run the show.
The question to ask is absent the IDF, at what point would Hamas have stopped on October 7th.
According to the IDF, they killed 1,600 Hamas terrorists on 7/10 itself.
And what would have happened if they hadn't killed those terrorists do you think.
It would be a funny "Defence" force that neglected to fight back against the initial incursion, would it not?
Not my point. I'm asking what you think would have happened without any IDF response. At what point would Hamas have stopped. Or would it only have been an out of ammo situation.
But the IDF was around that day. You'd might as well ask "What do you think would have happened if the Sun exploded?".
Because you persist in linking how evil a regime is to the kill score, rather than the intent. Others contend that Hamas would kill all the Jews if they could. However bad the current situation in Gaza is, I don’t think Israel wants to murder all the millions living there. Even if you believe that they are using hunger as a weapon (seems likely) it’s being done for a reason.
There are still lots of hostages held by Hamas.
And there are thousands of people currently held without charge by Israel...
Yes, there are. And if this ever resolved hopefully all will get home.
That’s nonsense. Hamas are only limited by circumstance. They would wipe out every Jew in a heartbeat if they could.
I'm sure Israel have done a GREAT job of not creating a new generation of Jew haters.
Yes, they are rapidly creating the next army for Hamas. It’s not logical, and it’s self destructive behaviour.
I’d like to think that the two state solution would be the answer, but how they get there from here seems rather tricky.
They're not creating the next one at all, the next one already exists.
If there is a ceasefire and Gaza goes back to being blockaded, then the next one will exist.
The only way to end this cycle of violence is to break it. Total victory for Israel, the total destruction or unconditional surrender of Hamas, then a Marshall Plan style redevelopment for Palestinians so they have a bright future without wanting to throw their lives away killing Jews instead.
Can't have the latter without the former.
It would be easier to believe that would be the case if Israel were making the effort to provide sufficient food to civilians in the areas that they control.
The Israeli failure to provide sufficient food to civilians in areas that they control makes it hard not to think that their intended endgame is a Gaza without any Palestinians, rather than only without Hamas.
I think many in the IDF want to stop aid in order to starve Gaza into submission. Certainly their actions look very much like this.
I have no doubt that many in the IDF want exactly that. But thankfully Israel, like us, doesn't let the hotheads run the show.
The question to ask is absent the IDF, at what point would Hamas have stopped on October 7th.
According to the IDF, they killed 1,600 Hamas terrorists on 7/10 itself.
And what would have happened if they hadn't killed those terrorists do you think.
It would be a funny "Defence" force that neglected to fight back against the initial incursion, would it not?
Not my point. I'm asking what you think would have happened without any IDF response. At what point would Hamas have stopped. Or would it only have been an out of ammo situation.
But the IDF was around that day. You'd might as well ask "What do you think would have happened if the Sun exploded?".
Okay fair enough I'm not going to do a Paxman on you and keep asking.
That you refuse to answer is itself the answer.
Your heroes would have kept on killing until they ran out of the means to do so. Although as @turbotubbs had noted there are plenty of rocks around which might have prolonged things.
Your question is purely hypothetical, given it's your Israeli heroes who are ACTUALLY killing people in the real world, as we speak.
@BartholomewRoberts glad you are back - so do you continue to support Israel despite the innocent people they keep murdering?
Innocents die in war, the difference between Israel and Hamas is that Hamas targets innocents deliberately. Israel does not, though will inevitably sometimes make mistakes.
Israel also owns up to its mistakes, Hamas do not.
Part of the reason why Israel are in every way better than Hamas and why I support Israel continuing the fighting until Hamas is completely destroyed.
Collateral damage is tragic but not murder.
It knew who these people were and targeted them.
Israel has not even apologised.
You are off the deep end. Please come home.
The fact you need to lie to make your point, rather shows how weak your argument is, even on what should be a strong ground for you.
From BBC Verify: The IDF chief of general staff Herzi Halevi has issued a statement calling the attack "a mistake that followed a misidentification at night… it shouldn't have happened".
He said an investigation into the incident would be completed "in the next coming days".
When Israel kills an innocent its a mistake and they launch investigations into what went wrong, same as any other western nation. Hamas targets innocents.
Hamas has only killed 1,700 people since 2008, even including 7/10.
You know full well, as many other people not myself, have made the point to you that the fake figures you keep peddling ignore eg Palestinians thrown off rooftops by Hamas etc
Or do Palestinian deaths mean nothing to you unless they're caused by Israelis?
You are a silly billy.
Renegade death cult ****s like Hamas should be measured on a different scale to a democratic Israel.
Your view since October 7th is that Israel can stop massacring foreign aid workers, women and children when off the scale bonkers, don't give a f*** death cult Hamas hand over their weapons, and that is is patently absurd.
I would have more time for Bibi if Hamas Grandees were falling out of Doha penthouse windows than Gaza hospitals were instead being levelled.
Renegade death cults like Hamas can't be negotiated with, they either kill or they need to be killed.
Israel can stop its war when the war is over. That is either when Hamas hands over their weapons, or when they're all dead. Neither has happened yet.
Israel has been killing Hamas leaders outside of Gaza too, I assume you have applauded them for this, right?
Its not either/or, they should be doing both - and are.
Paragraph.1. Correct, but proportionality has to be exercised
Paragraph 2. Hello, this is a f*****' death cult they don't follow the Geneva Convention!
Paragraph 3. If you mean precision strikes killing bastards with limited collateral, hell yes. Razing the Iranian consulate in another sovereign state to the ground, not so much unless the aim is a full regional conflict with US intervention.
1. Agreed - and Israel is exercising it.
2. Agreed - which is why they need to be defeated and can't be negotiated with and there should be no ceasefire.
3. Precision strikes with limited collateral is just unachievable nonsense. Any strike always has collateral.
1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich?
Wasn't everyone saying they shouldn't bomb Gaza but go after the leaders of Hamas instead. Isn't that the basis of their supposed extra-territorial strikes.
They can't win, eh.
There's going after bastards covertly on foreign sovereign land which is fine, and there is blowing up sovereign bastard's consulates on other sovereign nation's land.
I thought being a military strategist you'd know this.
So you want James Bond nonsense only.
Covertly going after a couple of people may be possible, though its time consuming and difficult and expensive.
Trying to defeat an enemy institution requires much more.
Anyone out of window following your policy would be immediately replaced as they'd be so far between each one.
So you are going for full fat ethnic cleansing. There, you've spelled it out. Thanks.
No I'm going for full fat victory.
Everyone who fights for or supports Hamas dead or surrenders.
I've been unequivocal on that since the beginning.
That’s nonsense. Hamas are only limited by circumstance. They would wipe out every Jew in a heartbeat if they could.
I'm sure Israel have done a GREAT job of not creating a new generation of Jew haters.
Yes, they are rapidly creating the next army for Hamas. It’s not logical, and it’s self destructive behaviour.
I’d like to think that the two state solution would be the answer, but how they get there from here seems rather tricky.
They're not creating the next one at all, the next one already exists.
If there is a ceasefire and Gaza goes back to being blockaded, then the next one will exist.
The only way to end this cycle of violence is to break it. Total victory for Israel, the total destruction or unconditional surrender of Hamas, then a Marshall Plan style redevelopment for Palestinians so they have a bright future without wanting to throw their lives away killing Jews instead.
Can't have the latter without the former.
It would be easier to believe that would be the case if Israel were making the effort to provide sufficient food to civilians in the areas that they control.
The Israeli failure to provide sufficient food to civilians in areas that they control makes it hard not to think that their intended endgame is a Gaza without any Palestinians, rather than only without Hamas.
I think many in the IDF want to stop aid in order to starve Gaza into submission. Certainly their actions look very much like this.
I have no doubt that many in the IDF want exactly that. But thankfully Israel, like us, doesn't let the hotheads run the show.
The question to ask is absent the IDF, at what point would Hamas have stopped on October 7th.
According to the IDF, they killed 1,600 Hamas terrorists on 7/10 itself.
And what would have happened if they hadn't killed those terrorists do you think.
It would be a funny "Defence" force that neglected to fight back against the initial incursion, would it not?
Not my point. I'm asking what you think would have happened without any IDF response. At what point would Hamas have stopped. Or would it only have been an out of ammo situation.
But the IDF was around that day. You'd might as well ask "What do you think would have happened if the Sun exploded?".
Okay fair enough I'm not going to do a Paxman on you and keep asking.
That you refuse to answer is itself the answer.
Your heroes would have kept on killing until they ran out of the means to do so. Although as @turbotubbs had noted there are plenty of rocks around which might have prolonged things.
Your question is purely hypothetical, given it's your Israeli heroes who are ACTUALLY killing people in the real world, as we speak.
You are delusional if you think they don't, or can be negotiated with.
I've proposed a solution to this cycle of violence, you have not.
You are just delusional, with no solutions.
So you think the US and UK are also delusional with no solutions?
Yes.
I think they're pandering to people like you, safe in the knowledge that they don't need to come up with a solution themselves.
You are unhinged.
It's all that meat the lad eats. If he'd just chill and eat a bit of smashed avo, he'd be much happier.
Avocados are the fruit of the devil. Well, of the drug cartels at least.
I fecking hate the stuff. I must be the only vegan on the planet that never touches them. I just use them as the stereotypical vegan food of choice. They trigger non plant botherers something awful!
I love avocado.
Extremely low carb too.
Before I was on my current diet, salmon and avocado sushi was one of my favourite treats.
You are delusional if you think they don't, or can be negotiated with.
I've proposed a solution to this cycle of violence, you have not.
You are just delusional, with no solutions.
So you think the US and UK are also delusional with no solutions?
Yes.
I think they're pandering to people like you, safe in the knowledge that they don't need to come up with a solution themselves.
You are unhinged.
No I'm not, I'm being a realist.
A real realist, not one of those fake ones who wants to kowtow to Russia.
Oh sod off with this Russia nonsense. You are a warmonger and you're lost.
War is necessary sometimes.
When faced by absolute evil, yes it needs to be destroyed at war sometimes.
You are an appeaser.
You think everyone on this board is an appeaser. You are crazy.
No I think only those who don't want Russia and Hamas defeated are appeasers.
I think I am the only PBer who wants both a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders, and a free, secure Israel restored to its 1967 borders.
Not the only one. Me too.
Where do you stand on the whole North America thing.
We should just reoccupy the whole lot , in order to:
STOP them playing football with their hands STOP them driving on the wrong side of the road STOP them being obsessed with guns STOP them mispronouncing words like "water" STOP them spelling words like "color", er, I mean "colour" incorrectly.
That’s nonsense. Hamas are only limited by circumstance. They would wipe out every Jew in a heartbeat if they could.
I'm sure Israel have done a GREAT job of not creating a new generation of Jew haters.
Yes, they are rapidly creating the next army for Hamas. It’s not logical, and it’s self destructive behaviour.
I’d like to think that the two state solution would be the answer, but how they get there from here seems rather tricky.
They're not creating the next one at all, the next one already exists.
If there is a ceasefire and Gaza goes back to being blockaded, then the next one will exist.
The only way to end this cycle of violence is to break it. Total victory for Israel, the total destruction or unconditional surrender of Hamas, then a Marshall Plan style redevelopment for Palestinians so they have a bright future without wanting to throw their lives away killing Jews instead.
Can't have the latter without the former.
It would be easier to believe that would be the case if Israel were making the effort to provide sufficient food to civilians in the areas that they control.
The Israeli failure to provide sufficient food to civilians in areas that they control makes it hard not to think that their intended endgame is a Gaza without any Palestinians, rather than only without Hamas.
I think many in the IDF want to stop aid in order to starve Gaza into submission. Certainly their actions look very much like this.
I have no doubt that many in the IDF want exactly that. But thankfully Israel, like us, doesn't let the hotheads run the show.
The question to ask is absent the IDF, at what point would Hamas have stopped on October 7th.
According to the IDF, they killed 1,600 Hamas terrorists on 7/10 itself.
And what would have happened if they hadn't killed those terrorists do you think.
It would be a funny "Defence" force that neglected to fight back against the initial incursion, would it not?
Not my point. I'm asking what you think would have happened without any IDF response. At what point would Hamas have stopped. Or would it only have been an out of ammo situation.
But the IDF was around that day. You'd might as well ask "What do you think would have happened if the Sun exploded?".
Okay fair enough I'm not going to do a Paxman on you and keep asking.
That you refuse to answer is itself the answer.
Your heroes would have kept on killing until they ran out of the means to do so. Although as @turbotubbs had noted there are plenty of rocks around which might have prolonged things.
Your question is purely hypothetical, given it's your Israeli heroes who are ACTUALLY killing people in the real world, as we speak.
How do you decide whether an alternative action is superior than by considering hypothetical questions?
You are asking Israel to change strategy by not fighting Hamas, so it is a very relevant hypothetical to consider how well that strategy would have worked if pursued early last October.
You are delusional if you think they don't, or can be negotiated with.
I've proposed a solution to this cycle of violence, you have not.
You are just delusional, with no solutions.
So you think the US and UK are also delusional with no solutions?
Yes.
I think they're pandering to people like you, safe in the knowledge that they don't need to come up with a solution themselves.
You are unhinged.
No I'm not, I'm being a realist.
A real realist, not one of those fake ones who wants to kowtow to Russia.
Oh sod off with this Russia nonsense. You are a warmonger and you're lost.
War is necessary sometimes.
When faced by absolute evil, yes it needs to be destroyed at war sometimes.
You are an appeaser.
You think everyone on this board is an appeaser. You are crazy.
No I think only those who don't want Russia and Hamas defeated are appeasers.
I think I am the only PBer who wants both a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders, and a free, secure Israel restored to its 1967 borders.
Not the only one. Me too.
Where do you stand on the whole North America thing.
I think those countries should stick to their internationally agreed borders too.
Israel doesn't have an internationally agreed border though.
The Oslo accords agreed that the future border was a matter for negotiations. Jordan and Egypt have relinquished their claim on the disputed land in the Middle East and the Palestinians don't automatically inherit that right.
You are delusional if you think they don't, or can be negotiated with.
I've proposed a solution to this cycle of violence, you have not.
You are just delusional, with no solutions.
So you think the US and UK are also delusional with no solutions?
Yes.
I think they're pandering to people like you, safe in the knowledge that they don't need to come up with a solution themselves.
You are unhinged.
No I'm not, I'm being a realist.
A real realist, not one of those fake ones who wants to kowtow to Russia.
Oh sod off with this Russia nonsense. You are a warmonger and you're lost.
War is necessary sometimes.
When faced by absolute evil, yes it needs to be destroyed at war sometimes.
You are an appeaser.
You think everyone on this board is an appeaser. You are crazy.
No I think only those who don't want Russia and Hamas defeated are appeasers.
I think I am the only PBer who wants both a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders, and a free, secure Israel restored to its 1967 borders.
Not the only one. Me too.
Where do you stand on the whole North America thing.
I think those countries should stick to their internationally agreed borders too.
Israel annexed the West Bank and Gaza following a war with its Arab neighbours. We whiteys annexed the United States of America following a conquest of the indigenous peoples.
If you want a return to 1967 borders then presumably you want a return of America to its 1492 state also.
You are delusional if you think they don't, or can be negotiated with.
I've proposed a solution to this cycle of violence, you have not.
You are just delusional, with no solutions.
So you think the US and UK are also delusional with no solutions?
Yes.
I think they're pandering to people like you, safe in the knowledge that they don't need to come up with a solution themselves.
You are unhinged.
No I'm not, I'm being a realist.
A real realist, not one of those fake ones who wants to kowtow to Russia.
Oh sod off with this Russia nonsense. You are a warmonger and you're lost.
War is necessary sometimes.
When faced by absolute evil, yes it needs to be destroyed at war sometimes.
You are an appeaser.
You think everyone on this board is an appeaser. You are crazy.
No I think only those who don't want Russia and Hamas defeated are appeasers.
I think I am the only PBer who wants both a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders, and a free, secure Israel restored to its 1967 borders.
Not the only one. Me too.
Where do you stand on the whole North America thing.
We should just reoccupy the whole lot , in order to:
STOP them playing football with their hands STOP them driving on the wrong side of the road STOP them being obsessed with guns STOP them mispronouncing words like "water" STOP them spelling words like "color", er, I mean "colour" incorrectly.
There!
He hasn't yet revealed this, but Keir Starmer is planning to issue an ultimatum to the Australian Labor Party to change their name, or face the consequences.
You are delusional if you think they don't, or can be negotiated with.
I've proposed a solution to this cycle of violence, you have not.
You are just delusional, with no solutions.
So you think the US and UK are also delusional with no solutions?
Yes.
I think they're pandering to people like you, safe in the knowledge that they don't need to come up with a solution themselves.
You are unhinged.
No I'm not, I'm being a realist.
A real realist, not one of those fake ones who wants to kowtow to Russia.
Oh sod off with this Russia nonsense. You are a warmonger and you're lost.
War is necessary sometimes.
When faced by absolute evil, yes it needs to be destroyed at war sometimes.
You are an appeaser.
You think everyone on this board is an appeaser. You are crazy.
No I think only those who don't want Russia and Hamas defeated are appeasers.
I think I am the only PBer who wants both a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders, and a free, secure Israel restored to its 1967 borders.
Not the only one. Me too.
Where do you stand on the whole North America thing.
We should just reoccupy the whole lot , in order to:
STOP them playing football with their hands STOP them driving on the wrong side of the road STOP them being obsessed with guns STOP them mispronouncing words like "water" STOP them spelling words like "color", er, I mean "colour" incorrectly.
That’s nonsense. Hamas are only limited by circumstance. They would wipe out every Jew in a heartbeat if they could.
I'm sure Israel have done a GREAT job of not creating a new generation of Jew haters.
Yes, they are rapidly creating the next army for Hamas. It’s not logical, and it’s self destructive behaviour.
I’d like to think that the two state solution would be the answer, but how they get there from here seems rather tricky.
They're not creating the next one at all, the next one already exists.
If there is a ceasefire and Gaza goes back to being blockaded, then the next one will exist.
The only way to end this cycle of violence is to break it. Total victory for Israel, the total destruction or unconditional surrender of Hamas, then a Marshall Plan style redevelopment for Palestinians so they have a bright future without wanting to throw their lives away killing Jews instead.
Can't have the latter without the former.
It would be easier to believe that would be the case if Israel were making the effort to provide sufficient food to civilians in the areas that they control.
The Israeli failure to provide sufficient food to civilians in areas that they control makes it hard not to think that their intended endgame is a Gaza without any Palestinians, rather than only without Hamas.
I think many in the IDF want to stop aid in order to starve Gaza into submission. Certainly their actions look very much like this.
I have no doubt that many in the IDF want exactly that. But thankfully Israel, like us, doesn't let the hotheads run the show.
The question to ask is absent the IDF, at what point would Hamas have stopped on October 7th.
According to the IDF, they killed 1,600 Hamas terrorists on 7/10 itself.
And what would have happened if they hadn't killed those terrorists do you think.
It would be a funny "Defence" force that neglected to fight back against the initial incursion, would it not?
Not my point. I'm asking what you think would have happened without any IDF response. At what point would Hamas have stopped. Or would it only have been an out of ammo situation.
But the IDF was around that day. You'd might as well ask "What do you think would have happened if the Sun exploded?".
Okay fair enough I'm not going to do a Paxman on you and keep asking.
That you refuse to answer is itself the answer.
Your heroes would have kept on killing until they ran out of the means to do so. Although as @turbotubbs had noted there are plenty of rocks around which might have prolonged things.
Your question is purely hypothetical, given it's your Israeli heroes who are ACTUALLY killing people in the real world, as we speak.
Unfortunately, there are very few heroes in this story. Lots of victims, a smattering of villains on both sides of the border. But apart from the aid workers, very few heroes.
You are delusional if you think they don't, or can be negotiated with.
I've proposed a solution to this cycle of violence, you have not.
You are just delusional, with no solutions.
So you think the US and UK are also delusional with no solutions?
Yes.
I think they're pandering to people like you, safe in the knowledge that they don't need to come up with a solution themselves.
You are unhinged.
No I'm not, I'm being a realist.
A real realist, not one of those fake ones who wants to kowtow to Russia.
Oh sod off with this Russia nonsense. You are a warmonger and you're lost.
War is necessary sometimes.
When faced by absolute evil, yes it needs to be destroyed at war sometimes.
You are an appeaser.
You think everyone on this board is an appeaser. You are crazy.
No I think only those who don't want Russia and Hamas defeated are appeasers.
I think I am the only PBer who wants both a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders, and a free, secure Israel restored to its 1967 borders.
Not the only one. Me too.
Where do you stand on the whole North America thing.
We should just reoccupy the whole lot , in order to:
STOP them playing football with their hands STOP them driving on the wrong side of the road STOP them being obsessed with guns STOP them mispronouncing words like "water" STOP them spelling words like "color", er, I mean "colour" incorrectly.
You are delusional if you think they don't, or can be negotiated with.
I've proposed a solution to this cycle of violence, you have not.
You are just delusional, with no solutions.
So you think the US and UK are also delusional with no solutions?
Yes.
I think they're pandering to people like you, safe in the knowledge that they don't need to come up with a solution themselves.
You are unhinged.
No I'm not, I'm being a realist.
A real realist, not one of those fake ones who wants to kowtow to Russia.
Oh sod off with this Russia nonsense. You are a warmonger and you're lost.
War is necessary sometimes.
When faced by absolute evil, yes it needs to be destroyed at war sometimes.
You are an appeaser.
You think everyone on this board is an appeaser. You are crazy.
No I think only those who don't want Russia and Hamas defeated are appeasers.
I think I am the only PBer who wants both a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders, and a free, secure Israel restored to its 1967 borders.
Not the only one. Me too.
Where do you stand on the whole North America thing.
I think those countries should stick to their internationally agreed borders too.
Israel annexed the West Bank and Gaza following a war with its Arab neighbours. We whiteys annexed the United States of America following a conquest of the indigenous peoples.
If you want a return to 1967 borders then presumably you want a return of America to its 1492 state also.
Why stop there? Justice for 1066? Or go back further? Justice for 43 AD.
You are delusional if you think they don't, or can be negotiated with.
I've proposed a solution to this cycle of violence, you have not.
You are just delusional, with no solutions.
So you think the US and UK are also delusional with no solutions?
Yes.
I think they're pandering to people like you, safe in the knowledge that they don't need to come up with a solution themselves.
You are unhinged.
No I'm not, I'm being a realist.
A real realist, not one of those fake ones who wants to kowtow to Russia.
Oh sod off with this Russia nonsense. You are a warmonger and you're lost.
War is necessary sometimes.
When faced by absolute evil, yes it needs to be destroyed at war sometimes.
You are an appeaser.
You think everyone on this board is an appeaser. You are crazy.
No I think only those who don't want Russia and Hamas defeated are appeasers.
I think I am the only PBer who wants both a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders, and a free, secure Israel restored to its 1967 borders.
Not the only one. Me too.
Where do you stand on the whole North America thing.
I think those countries should stick to their internationally agreed borders too.
Israel annexed the West Bank and Gaza following a war with its Arab neighbours. We whiteys annexed the United States of America following a conquest of the indigenous peoples.
If you want a return to 1967 borders then presumably you want a return of America to its 1492 state also.
The current borders of the USA are agreed internationally.
Israel has occupied the West Bank and Gaza but not annexed them. It has annexed East Jerusalem. Hence the WB and Gaza are referred to as Occupied Territories.
@BartholomewRoberts glad you are back - so do you continue to support Israel despite the innocent people they keep murdering?
Innocents die in war, the difference between Israel and Hamas is that Hamas targets innocents deliberately. Israel does not, though will inevitably sometimes make mistakes.
Israel also owns up to its mistakes, Hamas do not.
Part of the reason why Israel are in every way better than Hamas and why I support Israel continuing the fighting until Hamas is completely destroyed.
Collateral damage is tragic but not murder.
It knew who these people were and targeted them.
Israel has not even apologised.
You are off the deep end. Please come home.
The fact you need to lie to make your point, rather shows how weak your argument is, even on what should be a strong ground for you.
From BBC Verify: The IDF chief of general staff Herzi Halevi has issued a statement calling the attack "a mistake that followed a misidentification at night… it shouldn't have happened".
He said an investigation into the incident would be completed "in the next coming days".
When Israel kills an innocent its a mistake and they launch investigations into what went wrong, same as any other western nation. Hamas targets innocents.
Hamas has only killed 1,700 people since 2008, even including 7/10.
You know full well, as many other people not myself, have made the point to you that the fake figures you keep peddling ignore eg Palestinians thrown off rooftops by Hamas etc
Or do Palestinian deaths mean nothing to you unless they're caused by Israelis?
You are a silly billy.
Renegade death cult ****s like Hamas should be measured on a different scale to a democratic Israel.
Your view since October 7th is that Israel can stop massacring foreign aid workers, women and children when off the scale bonkers, don't give a f*** death cult Hamas hand over their weapons, and that is is patently absurd.
I would have more time for Bibi if Hamas Grandees were falling out of Doha penthouse windows than Gaza hospitals were instead being levelled.
Renegade death cults like Hamas can't be negotiated with, they either kill or they need to be killed.
Israel can stop its war when the war is over. That is either when Hamas hands over their weapons, or when they're all dead. Neither has happened yet.
Israel has been killing Hamas leaders outside of Gaza too, I assume you have applauded them for this, right?
Its not either/or, they should be doing both - and are.
Paragraph.1. Correct, but proportionality has to be exercised
Paragraph 2. Hello, this is a f*****' death cult they don't follow the Geneva Convention!
Paragraph 3. If you mean precision strikes killing bastards with limited collateral, hell yes. Razing the Iranian consulate in another sovereign state to the ground, not so much unless the aim is a full regional conflict with US intervention.
1. Agreed - and Israel is exercising it.
2. Agreed - which is why they need to be defeated and can't be negotiated with and there should be no ceasefire.
3. Precision strikes with limited collateral is just unachievable nonsense. Any strike always has collateral.
1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich?
Wasn't everyone saying they shouldn't bomb Gaza but go after the leaders of Hamas instead. Isn't that the basis of their supposed extra-territorial strikes.
They can't win, eh.
There's going after bastards covertly on foreign sovereign land which is fine, and there is blowing up sovereign bastard's consulates on other sovereign nation's land.
I thought being a military strategist you'd know this.
Oh I bow to the superior PB knowledge of war fighting. If you could possibly drop me a copy of the rules of engagement or perhaps post them here for everyone to see then at least we can all understand what actions are right and proper and which ones are beyond the pale.
In addition to talking about their use of the AI system, called Lavender, the intelligence sources claim that Israeli military officials permitted large numbers of Palestinian civilians to be killed, particularly during the early weeks and months of the conflict.
Their unusually candid testimony provides a rare glimpse into the first-hand experiences of Israeli intelligence officials who have been using machine-learning systems to help identify targets during the six-month war.
Israel’s use of powerful AI systems in its war on Hamas has entered uncharted territory for advanced warfare, raising a host of legal and moral questions, and transforming the relationship between military personnel and machines.
“This is unparalleled, in my memory,” said one intelligence officer who used Lavender, adding that they had more faith in a “statistical mechanism” than a grieving soldier. “Everyone there, including me, lost people on October 7. The machine did it coldly. And that made it easier.”
Another Lavender user questioned whether humans’ role in the selection process was meaningful. “I would invest 20 seconds for each target at this stage, and do dozens of them every day. I had zero added-value as a human, apart from being a stamp of approval. It saved a lot of time.”..
.. Several of the sources described how, for certain categories of targets, the IDF applied pre-authorised allowances for the estimated number of civilians who could be killed before a strike was authorised.
Two sources said that during the early weeks of the war they were permitted to kill 15 or 20 civilians during airstrikes on low-ranking militants. Attacks on such targets were typically carried out using unguided munitions known as “dumb bombs”, the sources said, destroying entire homes and killing all their occupant….
You are delusional if you think they don't, or can be negotiated with.
I've proposed a solution to this cycle of violence, you have not.
You are just delusional, with no solutions.
So you think the US and UK are also delusional with no solutions?
Yes.
I think they're pandering to people like you, safe in the knowledge that they don't need to come up with a solution themselves.
You are unhinged.
It's all that meat the lad eats. If he'd just chill and eat a bit of smashed avo, he'd be much happier.
Avocados are the fruit of the devil. Well, of the drug cartels at least.
I fecking hate the stuff. I must be the only vegan on the planet that never touches them. I just use them as the stereotypical vegan food of choice. They trigger non plant botherers something awful!
I love avocado.
Extremely low carb too.
Before I was on my current diet, salmon and avocado sushi was one of my favourite treats.
There is a great documentary on Netflix about avocados. Watch it and hang your head in shame. While eating as @TwistedFireStopper says, smashed avocado, poached egg and smoked salmon on toasted soda bread.
You are delusional if you think they don't, or can be negotiated with.
I've proposed a solution to this cycle of violence, you have not.
You are just delusional, with no solutions.
So you think the US and UK are also delusional with no solutions?
Yes.
I think they're pandering to people like you, safe in the knowledge that they don't need to come up with a solution themselves.
You are unhinged.
No I'm not, I'm being a realist.
A real realist, not one of those fake ones who wants to kowtow to Russia.
Oh sod off with this Russia nonsense. You are a warmonger and you're lost.
War is necessary sometimes.
When faced by absolute evil, yes it needs to be destroyed at war sometimes.
You are an appeaser.
You think everyone on this board is an appeaser. You are crazy.
No I think only those who don't want Russia and Hamas defeated are appeasers.
I think I am the only PBer who wants both a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders, and a free, secure Israel restored to its 1967 borders.
Not the only one. Me too.
Where do you stand on the whole North America thing.
We should just reoccupy the whole lot , in order to:
STOP them playing football with their hands STOP them driving on the wrong side of the road STOP them being obsessed with guns STOP them mispronouncing words like "water" STOP them spelling words like "color", er, I mean "colour" incorrectly.
You are delusional if you think they don't, or can be negotiated with.
I've proposed a solution to this cycle of violence, you have not.
You are just delusional, with no solutions.
So you think the US and UK are also delusional with no solutions?
Yes.
I think they're pandering to people like you, safe in the knowledge that they don't need to come up with a solution themselves.
You are unhinged.
No I'm not, I'm being a realist.
A real realist, not one of those fake ones who wants to kowtow to Russia.
Oh sod off with this Russia nonsense. You are a warmonger and you're lost.
War is necessary sometimes.
When faced by absolute evil, yes it needs to be destroyed at war sometimes.
You are an appeaser.
You think everyone on this board is an appeaser. You are crazy.
No I think only those who don't want Russia and Hamas defeated are appeasers.
I think I am the only PBer who wants both a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders, and a free, secure Israel restored to its 1967 borders.
Not the only one. Me too.
Where do you stand on the whole North America thing.
I think those countries should stick to their internationally agreed borders too.
Israel annexed the West Bank and Gaza following a war with its Arab neighbours. We whiteys annexed the United States of America following a conquest of the indigenous peoples.
If you want a return to 1967 borders then presumably you want a return of America to its 1492 state also.
The current borders of the USA are agreed internationally.
Israel has occupied the West Bank and Gaza but not annexed them. It has annexed East Jerusalem. Hence the WB and Gaza are referred to as Occupied Territories.
Yes but Jordan and Egypt have relinquished their claims on WB and Gaza.
Israel agreed to the Oslo Accords which agreed that the future Israeli border is a matter for negotiations. You are acting as if Israeli is not entitled to any of the WB and Gaza, when that is not what the Oslo Accords agreed.
@BartholomewRoberts glad you are back - so do you continue to support Israel despite the innocent people they keep murdering?
Innocents die in war, the difference between Israel and Hamas is that Hamas targets innocents deliberately. Israel does not, though will inevitably sometimes make mistakes.
Israel also owns up to its mistakes, Hamas do not.
Part of the reason why Israel are in every way better than Hamas and why I support Israel continuing the fighting until Hamas is completely destroyed.
Collateral damage is tragic but not murder.
It knew who these people were and targeted them.
Israel has not even apologised.
You are off the deep end. Please come home.
The fact you need to lie to make your point, rather shows how weak your argument is, even on what should be a strong ground for you.
From BBC Verify: The IDF chief of general staff Herzi Halevi has issued a statement calling the attack "a mistake that followed a misidentification at night… it shouldn't have happened".
He said an investigation into the incident would be completed "in the next coming days".
When Israel kills an innocent its a mistake and they launch investigations into what went wrong, same as any other western nation. Hamas targets innocents.
Hamas has only killed 1,700 people since 2008, even including 7/10.
You know full well, as many other people not myself, have made the point to you that the fake figures you keep peddling ignore eg Palestinians thrown off rooftops by Hamas etc
Or do Palestinian deaths mean nothing to you unless they're caused by Israelis?
You are a silly billy.
Renegade death cult ****s like Hamas should be measured on a different scale to a democratic Israel.
Your view since October 7th is that Israel can stop massacring foreign aid workers, women and children when off the scale bonkers, don't give a f*** death cult Hamas hand over their weapons, and that is is patently absurd.
I would have more time for Bibi if Hamas Grandees were falling out of Doha penthouse windows than Gaza hospitals were instead being levelled.
Renegade death cults like Hamas can't be negotiated with, they either kill or they need to be killed.
Israel can stop its war when the war is over. That is either when Hamas hands over their weapons, or when they're all dead. Neither has happened yet.
Israel has been killing Hamas leaders outside of Gaza too, I assume you have applauded them for this, right?
Its not either/or, they should be doing both - and are.
Paragraph.1. Correct, but proportionality has to be exercised
Paragraph 2. Hello, this is a f*****' death cult they don't follow the Geneva Convention!
Paragraph 3. If you mean precision strikes killing bastards with limited collateral, hell yes. Razing the Iranian consulate in another sovereign state to the ground, not so much unless the aim is a full regional conflict with US intervention.
1. Agreed - and Israel is exercising it.
2. Agreed - which is why they need to be defeated and can't be negotiated with and there should be no ceasefire.
3. Precision strikes with limited collateral is just unachievable nonsense. Any strike always has collateral.
1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich?
Wasn't everyone saying they shouldn't bomb Gaza but go after the leaders of Hamas instead. Isn't that the basis of their supposed extra-territorial strikes.
They can't win, eh.
There's going after bastards covertly on foreign sovereign land which is fine, and there is blowing up sovereign bastard's consulates on other sovereign nation's land.
I thought being a military strategist you'd know this.
Oh I bow to the superior PB knowledge of war fighting. If you could possibly drop me a copy of the rules of engagement or perhaps post them here for everyone to see then at least we can all understand what actions are right and proper and which ones are beyond the pale.
In addition to talking about their use of the AI system, called Lavender, the intelligence sources claim that Israeli military officials permitted large numbers of Palestinian civilians to be killed, particularly during the early weeks and months of the conflict.
Their unusually candid testimony provides a rare glimpse into the first-hand experiences of Israeli intelligence officials who have been using machine-learning systems to help identify targets during the six-month war.
Israel’s use of powerful AI systems in its war on Hamas has entered uncharted territory for advanced warfare, raising a host of legal and moral questions, and transforming the relationship between military personnel and machines.
“This is unparalleled, in my memory,” said one intelligence officer who used Lavender, adding that they had more faith in a “statistical mechanism” than a grieving soldier. “Everyone there, including me, lost people on October 7. The machine did it coldly. And that made it easier.”
Another Lavender user questioned whether humans’ role in the selection process was meaningful. “I would invest 20 seconds for each target at this stage, and do dozens of them every day. I had zero added-value as a human, apart from being a stamp of approval. It saved a lot of time.”..
.. Several of the sources described how, for certain categories of targets, the IDF applied pre-authorised allowances for the estimated number of civilians who could be killed before a strike was authorised.
Two sources said that during the early weeks of the war they were permitted to kill 15 or 20 civilians during airstrikes on low-ranking militants. Attacks on such targets were typically carried out using unguided munitions known as “dumb bombs”, the sources said, destroying entire homes and killing all their occupant….
I'm not sure how what you posted relates to my request.
You are delusional if you think they don't, or can be negotiated with.
I've proposed a solution to this cycle of violence, you have not.
You are just delusional, with no solutions.
So you think the US and UK are also delusional with no solutions?
Yes.
I think they're pandering to people like you, safe in the knowledge that they don't need to come up with a solution themselves.
You are unhinged.
No I'm not, I'm being a realist.
A real realist, not one of those fake ones who wants to kowtow to Russia.
Oh sod off with this Russia nonsense. You are a warmonger and you're lost.
War is necessary sometimes.
When faced by absolute evil, yes it needs to be destroyed at war sometimes.
You are an appeaser.
You think everyone on this board is an appeaser. You are crazy.
No I think only those who don't want Russia and Hamas defeated are appeasers.
I think I am the only PBer who wants both a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders, and a free, secure Israel restored to its 1967 borders.
Not the only one. Me too.
Where do you stand on the whole North America thing.
I think those countries should stick to their internationally agreed borders too.
Israel annexed the West Bank and Gaza following a war with its Arab neighbours. We whiteys annexed the United States of America following a conquest of the indigenous peoples.
If you want a return to 1967 borders then presumably you want a return of America to its 1492 state also.
The current borders of the USA are agreed internationally.
Israel has occupied the West Bank and Gaza but not annexed them. It has annexed East Jerusalem. Hence the WB and Gaza are referred to as Occupied Territories.
Yes. But who agreed that the current borders of the USA are sacrosanct. The Navajo?
You are delusional if you think they don't, or can be negotiated with.
I've proposed a solution to this cycle of violence, you have not.
You are just delusional, with no solutions.
So you think the US and UK are also delusional with no solutions?
Yes.
I think they're pandering to people like you, safe in the knowledge that they don't need to come up with a solution themselves.
You are unhinged.
No I'm not, I'm being a realist.
A real realist, not one of those fake ones who wants to kowtow to Russia.
Oh sod off with this Russia nonsense. You are a warmonger and you're lost.
War is necessary sometimes.
When faced by absolute evil, yes it needs to be destroyed at war sometimes.
You are an appeaser.
You think everyone on this board is an appeaser. You are crazy.
No I think only those who don't want Russia and Hamas defeated are appeasers.
I think I am the only PBer who wants both a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders, and a free, secure Israel restored to its 1967 borders.
Not the only one. Me too.
Where do you stand on the whole North America thing.
I think those countries should stick to their internationally agreed borders too.
Israel annexed the West Bank and Gaza following a war with its Arab neighbours. We whiteys annexed the United States of America following a conquest of the indigenous peoples.
If you want a return to 1967 borders then presumably you want a return of America to its 1492 state also.
The current borders of the USA are agreed internationally.
Israel has occupied the West Bank and Gaza but not annexed them. It has annexed East Jerusalem. Hence the WB and Gaza are referred to as Occupied Territories.
Yes. But who agreed that the current borders of the USA are sacrosanct. The Navajo?
The Navajo did sign a treaty with the US in 1868, yes.
That’s nonsense. Hamas are only limited by circumstance. They would wipe out every Jew in a heartbeat if they could.
I'm sure Israel have done a GREAT job of not creating a new generation of Jew haters.
Yes, they are rapidly creating the next army for Hamas. It’s not logical, and it’s self destructive behaviour.
I’d like to think that the two state solution would be the answer, but how they get there from here seems rather tricky.
They're not creating the next one at all, the next one already exists.
If there is a ceasefire and Gaza goes back to being blockaded, then the next one will exist.
The only way to end this cycle of violence is to break it. Total victory for Israel, the total destruction or unconditional surrender of Hamas, then a Marshall Plan style redevelopment for Palestinians so they have a bright future without wanting to throw their lives away killing Jews instead.
Can't have the latter without the former.
It would be easier to believe that would be the case if Israel were making the effort to provide sufficient food to civilians in the areas that they control.
The Israeli failure to provide sufficient food to civilians in areas that they control makes it hard not to think that their intended endgame is a Gaza without any Palestinians, rather than only without Hamas.
I think many in the IDF want to stop aid in order to starve Gaza into submission. Certainly their actions look very much like this.
I have no doubt that many in the IDF want exactly that. But thankfully Israel, like us, doesn't let the hotheads run the show.
The question to ask is absent the IDF, at what point would Hamas have stopped on October 7th.
According to the IDF, they killed 1,600 Hamas terrorists on 7/10 itself.
And what would have happened if they hadn't killed those terrorists do you think.
It would be a funny "Defence" force that neglected to fight back against the initial incursion, would it not?
Not my point. I'm asking what you think would have happened without any IDF response. At what point would Hamas have stopped. Or would it only have been an out of ammo situation.
But the IDF was around that day. You'd might as well ask "What do you think would have happened if the Sun exploded?".
Okay fair enough I'm not going to do a Paxman on you and keep asking.
That you refuse to answer is itself the answer.
Your heroes would have kept on killing until they ran out of the means to do so. Although as @turbotubbs had noted there are plenty of rocks around which might have prolonged things.
Your question is purely hypothetical, given it's your Israeli heroes who are ACTUALLY killing people in the real world, as we speak.
Unfortunately, there are very few heroes in this story. Lots of victims, a smattering of villains on both sides of the border. But apart from the aid workers, very few heroes.
And until that changes, nothing changes.
The WCK incident was a tragic loss of life. But the Aid Industry is far from heroic.
Most of the United States was bought, not conquered: For example, the Louisiana purchase, much of the southwest after the Mexican-American War*, Florida, the Gadsden purchase, and Alaska. (If you want to say the US often bought stolen goods, I won't argue with you.)
There were many smaller purchases of land from tribes, after those large ones.
Before the Revolution, European settlers often bought land, famously Manhattan, less well-known but more important, parts of what is now eastern Pennsylvania, and so on.
(*That's right, after winning the war with Mexico, the US paid Mexico for the land.)
That’s nonsense. Hamas are only limited by circumstance. They would wipe out every Jew in a heartbeat if they could.
I'm sure Israel have done a GREAT job of not creating a new generation of Jew haters.
Yes, they are rapidly creating the next army for Hamas. It’s not logical, and it’s self destructive behaviour.
I’d like to think that the two state solution would be the answer, but how they get there from here seems rather tricky.
They're not creating the next one at all, the next one already exists.
If there is a ceasefire and Gaza goes back to being blockaded, then the next one will exist.
The only way to end this cycle of violence is to break it. Total victory for Israel, the total destruction or unconditional surrender of Hamas, then a Marshall Plan style redevelopment for Palestinians so they have a bright future without wanting to throw their lives away killing Jews instead.
Can't have the latter without the former.
It would be easier to believe that would be the case if Israel were making the effort to provide sufficient food to civilians in the areas that they control.
The Israeli failure to provide sufficient food to civilians in areas that they control makes it hard not to think that their intended endgame is a Gaza without any Palestinians, rather than only without Hamas.
Indeed. Consider the unexplained delay of the construction of the floating pier. It wouldn't surprise me if the deportation of remaining survivors after an assault on Rafah is the plan - meaning possibly a couple of hundred thousand fewer people than are shut in now - with the US government saying we-e-e-lll this isn't optimal, y'know, but in the circumstances...
That’s nonsense. Hamas are only limited by circumstance. They would wipe out every Jew in a heartbeat if they could.
I'm sure Israel have done a GREAT job of not creating a new generation of Jew haters.
Yes, they are rapidly creating the next army for Hamas. It’s not logical, and it’s self destructive behaviour.
I’d like to think that the two state solution would be the answer, but how they get there from here seems rather tricky.
They're not creating the next one at all, the next one already exists.
If there is a ceasefire and Gaza goes back to being blockaded, then the next one will exist.
The only way to end this cycle of violence is to break it. Total victory for Israel, the total destruction or unconditional surrender of Hamas, then a Marshall Plan style redevelopment for Palestinians so they have a bright future without wanting to throw their lives away killing Jews instead.
Have you got anything against the other armed resistance groups in Gaza, or indeed against armed resistance on that territory generally?
You are delusional if you think they don't, or can be negotiated with.
I've proposed a solution to this cycle of violence, you have not.
You are just delusional, with no solutions.
So you think the US and UK are also delusional with no solutions?
Yes.
I think they're pandering to people like you, safe in the knowledge that they don't need to come up with a solution themselves.
You are unhinged.
No I'mAn not, I'm being a realist.
A real realist, not one of those fake ones who wants to kowtow to Russia.
Oh sod off with this Russia nonsense. You are a warmonger and you're lost.
War is necessary sometimes.
When faced by absolute evil, yes it needs to be destroyed at war sometimes.
You are an appeaser.
You think everyone on this board is an appeaser. You are crazy.
No I think only those who don't want Russia and Hamas defeated are appeasers.
I think I am the only PBer who wants both a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders, and a free, secure Israel restored to its 1967 borders.
Not the only one. Me too.
Where do you stand on the whole North America thing.
I think those countries should stick to their internationally agreed borders too.
Israel annexed the West Bank and Gaza following a war with its Arab neighbours. We whiteys annexed the United States of America following a conquest of the indigenous peoples.
If you want a return to 1967 borders then presumably you want a return of America to its 1492 state also.
The current borders of the USA are agreed internationally.
Israel has occupied the West Bank and Gaza but not annexed them. It has annexed East Jerusalem. Hence the WB and Gaza are referred to as Occupied Territories.
Yes. But who agreed that the current borders of the USA are sacrosanct. The Navajo?
The Navajo did sign a treaty with the US in 1868, yes.
And Egypt and Jordan have sign peace agreements with Israel too, without demanding their land back.
There is no international agreement as to who owns that land, because Egypt and Jordan relinquished the land but Israel hasn't (yet) annexed it.
Perhaps it will end with Israel annexing the WB and Gaza, and there's nothing wrong with that if that happens, but the Oslo accords said that the land would be negotiated between Israel and a future Palestinian state. I would like to see that happen, once Hamas are vanquished.
You are delusional if you think they don't, or can be negotiated with.
I've proposed a solution to this cycle of violence, you have not.
You are just delusional, with no solutions.
So you think the US and UK are also delusional with no solutions?
Yes.
I think they're pandering to people like you, safe in the knowledge that they don't need to come up with a solution themselves.
You are unhinged.
No I'm not, I'm being a realist.
A real realist, not one of those fake ones who wants to kowtow to Russia.
Oh sod off with this Russia nonsense. You are a warmonger and you're lost.
War is necessary sometimes.
When faced by absolute evil, yes it needs to be destroyed at war sometimes.
You are an appeaser.
You think everyone on this board is an appeaser. You are crazy.
No I think only those who don't want Russia and Hamas defeated are appeasers.
I think I am the only PBer who wants both a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders, and a free, secure Israel restored to its 1967 borders.
Not the only one. Me too.
Where do you stand on the whole North America thing.
I think those countries should stick to their internationally agreed borders too.
Israel annexed the West Bank and Gaza following a war with its Arab neighbours. We whiteys annexed the United States of America following a conquest of the indigenous peoples.
If you want a return to 1967 borders then presumably you want a return of America to its 1492 state also.
The current borders of the USA are agreed internationally.
Israel has occupied the West Bank and Gaza but not annexed them. It has annexed East Jerusalem. Hence the WB and Gaza are referred to as Occupied Territories.
Yes. But who agreed that the current borders of the USA are sacrosanct. The Navajo?
The Navajo did sign a treaty with the US in 1868, yes.
Perfectly willingly. Do you happen to know the terms of the treaty and whether they were violated (clue: yes they were). I suggest you look it up. Not our finest moment.
You are delusional if you think they don't, or can be negotiated with.
I've proposed a solution to this cycle of violence, you have not.
You are just delusional, with no solutions.
So you think the US and UK are also delusional with no solutions?
Yes.
I think they're pandering to people like you, safe in the knowledge that they don't need to come up with a solution themselves.
You are unhinged.
No I'm not, I'm being a realist.
A real realist, not one of those fake ones who wants to kowtow to Russia.
Oh sod off with this Russia nonsense. You are a warmonger and you're lost.
War is necessary sometimes.
When faced by absolute evil, yes it needs to be destroyed at war sometimes.
You are an appeaser.
You think everyone on this board is an appeaser. You are crazy.
No I think only those who don't want Russia and Hamas defeated are appeasers.
I think I am the only PBer who wants both a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders, and a free, secure Israel restored to its 1967 borders.
Not the only one. Me too.
Where do you stand on the whole North America thing.
I think those countries should stick to their internationally agreed borders too.
Israel annexed the West Bank and Gaza following a war with its Arab neighbours. We whiteys annexed the United States of America following a conquest of the indigenous peoples.
If you want a return to 1967 borders then presumably you want a return of America to its 1492 state also.
The current borders of the USA are agreed internationally.
Israel has occupied the West Bank and Gaza but not annexed them. It has annexed East Jerusalem. Hence the WB and Gaza are referred to as Occupied Territories.
Yes but Jordan and Egypt have relinquished their claims on WB and Gaza.
Israel agreed to the Oslo Accords which agreed that the future Israeli border is a matter for negotiations. You are acting as if Israeli is not entitled to any of the WB and Gaza, when that is not what the Oslo Accords agreed.
No country recognises the Israeli annexation of East Jerusalem or Golan Heights.
Many Israelis do not support annexation of WB and Gaza, because that would Imperial the Jewish majority in Israel, unless the Palestinian citizens were either denied political rights, expelled or exterminated.
You are delusional if you think they don't, or can be negotiated with.
I've proposed a solution to this cycle of violence, you have not.
You are just delusional, with no solutions.
So you think the US and UK are also delusional with no solutions?
Yes.
I think they're pandering to people like you, safe in the knowledge that they don't need to come up with a solution themselves.
You are unhinged.
No I'm not, I'm being a realist.
A real realist, not one of those fake ones who wants to kowtow to Russia.
Oh sod off with this Russia nonsense. You are a warmonger and you're lost.
War is necessary sometimes.
When faced by absolute evil, yes it needs to be destroyed at war sometimes.
You are an appeaser.
You think everyone on this board is an appeaser. You are crazy.
No I think only those who don't want Russia and Hamas defeated are appeasers.
I think I am the only PBer who wants both a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders, and a free, secure Israel restored to its 1967 borders.
Not the only one. Me too.
Where do you stand on the whole North America thing.
I think those countries should stick to their internationally agreed borders too.
Israel annexed the West Bank and Gaza following a war with its Arab neighbours. We whiteys annexed the United States of America following a conquest of the indigenous peoples.
If you want a return to 1967 borders then presumably you want a return of America to its 1492 state also.
The current borders of the USA are agreed internationally.
Israel has occupied the West Bank and Gaza but not annexed them. It has annexed East Jerusalem. Hence the WB and Gaza are referred to as Occupied Territories.
Yes but Jordan and Egypt have relinquished their claims on WB and Gaza.
Israel agreed to the Oslo Accords which agreed that the future Israeli border is a matter for negotiations. You are acting as if Israeli is not entitled to any of the WB and Gaza, when that is not what the Oslo Accords agreed.
No country recognises the Israeli annexation of East Jerusalem or Golan Heights.
Many Israelis do not support annexation of WB and Gaza, because that would Imperial the Jewish majority in Israel, unless the Palestinian citizens were either denied political rights , expelled or exterminated.
Not the point. Even the UN doesn't mandate Israel to "return" them.
The spineless gimp now threatening to leave the ECHR if they block his Rwanda plan. Sunak really is an odious twat .
It's just desperation. The plan was always going to be hard to enact in the first place, never mind the question of whether it would work or not, and a significant part of his base which may at least be tempted to remain with the party are furious about it, he has to either succeed or look like he is doing everything humanly possible to succeed in it, and utilise anger at others if he cannot.
You are delusional if you think they don't, or can be negotiated with.
I've proposed a solution to this cycle of violence, you have not.
You are just delusional, with no solutions.
So you think the US and UK are also delusional with no solutions?
Yes.
I think they're pandering to people like you, safe in the knowledge that they don't need to come up with a solution themselves.
You are unhinged.
No I'm not, I'm being a realist.
A real realist, not one of those fake ones who wants to kowtow to Russia.
Oh sod off with this Russia nonsense. You are a warmonger and you're lost.
War is necessary sometimes.
When faced by absolute evil, yes it needs to be destroyed at war sometimes.
You are an appeaser.
You think everyone on this board is an appeaser. You are crazy.
No I think only those who don't want Russia and Hamas defeated are appeasers.
I think I am the only PBer who wants both a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders, and a free, secure Israel restored to its 1967 borders.
Not the only one. Me too.
Where do you stand on the whole North America thing.
I think those countries should stick to their internationally agreed borders too.
Israel annexed the West Bank and Gaza following a war with its Arab neighbours. We whiteys annexed the United States of America following a conquest of the indigenous peoples.
If you want a return to 1967 borders then presumably you want a return of America to its 1492 state also.
The current borders of the USA are agreed internationally.
Israel has occupied the West Bank and Gaza but not annexed them. It has annexed East Jerusalem. Hence the WB and Gaza are referred to as Occupied Territories.
Yes. But who agreed that the current borders of the USA are sacrosanct. The Navajo?
The Navajo did sign a treaty with the US in 1868, yes.
Perfectly willingly. Do you happen to know the terms of the treaty and whether they were violated (clue: yes they were). I suggest you look it up. Not our finest moment.
You are delusional if you think they don't, or can be negotiated with.
I've proposed a solution to this cycle of violence, you have not.
You are just delusional, with no solutions.
So you think the US and UK are also delusional with no solutions?
Yes.
I think they're pandering to people like you, safe in the knowledge that they don't need to come up with a solution themselves.
You are unhinged.
No I'm not, I'm being a realist.
A real realist, not one of those fake ones who wants to kowtow to Russia.
Oh sod off with this Russia nonsense. You are a warmonger and you're lost.
War is necessary sometimes.
When faced by absolute evil, yes it needs to be destroyed at war sometimes.
You are an appeaser.
You think everyone on this board is an appeaser. You are crazy.
No I think only those who don't want Russia and Hamas defeated are appeasers.
I think I am the only PBer who wants both a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders, and a free, secure Israel restored to its 1967 borders.
Not the only one. Me too.
Where do you stand on the whole North America thing.
I think those countries should stick to their internationally agreed borders too.
Israel annexed the West Bank and Gaza following a war with its Arab neighbours. We whiteys annexed the United States of America following a conquest of the indigenous peoples.
If you want a return to 1967 borders then presumably you want a return of America to its 1492 state also.
The current borders of the USA are agreed internationally.
Israel has occupied the West Bank and Gaza but not annexed them. It has annexed East Jerusalem. Hence the WB and Gaza are referred to as Occupied Territories.
Yes but Jordan and Egypt have relinquished their claims on WB and Gaza.
Israel agreed to the Oslo Accords which agreed that the future Israeli border is a matter for negotiations. You are acting as if Israeli is not entitled to any of the WB and Gaza, when that is not what the Oslo Accords agreed.
No country recognises the Israeli annexation of East Jerusalem or Golan Heights.
Many Israelis do not support annexation of WB and Gaza, because that would Imperial the Jewish majority in Israel, unless the Palestinian citizens were either denied political rights, expelled or exterminated.
How does that go against any of what I said?
The Oslo Accords said that the future of Gaza and the West Bank is for negotiations. Its no longer Egyptian or Jordanian, but nor is it agreed to be Israeli, nor is it agreed to be Palestinian.
You are delusional if you think they don't, or can be negotiated with.
I've proposed a solution to this cycle of violence, you have not.
You are just delusional, with no solutions.
So you think the US and UK are also delusional with no solutions?
Yes.
I think they're pandering to people like you, safe in the knowledge that they don't need to come up with a solution themselves.
You are unhinged.
No I'm not, I'm being a realist.
A real realist, not one of those fake ones who wants to kowtow to Russia.
Oh sod off with this Russia nonsense. You are a warmonger and you're lost.
War is necessary sometimes.
When faced by absolute evil, yes it needs to be destroyed at war sometimes.
You are an appeaser.
You think everyone on this board is an appeaser. You are crazy.
No I think only those who don't want Russia and Hamas defeated are appeasers.
I think I am the only PBer who wants both a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders, and a free, secure Israel restored to its 1967 borders.
Not the only one. Me too.
Where do you stand on the whole North America thing.
I think those countries should stick to their internationally agreed borders too.
Israel annexed the West Bank and Gaza following a war with its Arab neighbours. We whiteys annexed the United States of America following a conquest of the indigenous peoples.
If you want a return to 1967 borders then presumably you want a return of America to its 1492 state also.
The current borders of the USA are agreed internationally.
Israel has occupied the West Bank and Gaza but not annexed them. It has annexed East Jerusalem. Hence the WB and Gaza are referred to as Occupied Territories.
Yes but Jordan and Egypt have relinquished their claims on WB and Gaza.
Israel agreed to the Oslo Accords which agreed that the future Israeli border is a matter for negotiations. You are acting as if Israeli is not entitled to any of the WB and Gaza, when that is not what the Oslo Accords agreed.
No country recognises the Israeli annexation of East Jerusalem or Golan Heights.
Many Israelis do not support annexation of WB and Gaza, because that would Imperial the Jewish majority in Israel, unless the Palestinian citizens were either denied political rights , expelled or exterminated.
Not the point. Even the UN doesn't mandate Israel to "return" them.
It doesn't, but the UN also refuses to recognise Israels annexation of East Jerusalem..
Do you accept that at present Isael has not annexed WB and Gaza?
You are delusional if you think they don't, or can be negotiated with.
I've proposed a solution to this cycle of violence, you have not.
You are just delusional, with no solutions.
So you think the US and UK are also delusional with no solutions?
Yes.
I think they're pandering to people like you, safe in the knowledge that they don't need to come up with a solution themselves.
You are unhinged.
No I'mAn not, I'm being a realist.
A real realist, not one of those fake ones who wants to kowtow to Russia.
Oh sod off with this Russia nonsense. You are a warmonger and you're lost.
War is necessary sometimes.
When faced by absolute evil, yes it needs to be destroyed at war sometimes.
You are an appeaser.
You think everyone on this board is an appeaser. You are crazy.
No I think only those who don't want Russia and Hamas defeated are appeasers.
I think I am the only PBer who wants both a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders, and a free, secure Israel restored to its 1967 borders.
Not the only one. Me too.
Where do you stand on the whole North America thing.
I think those countries should stick to their internationally agreed borders too.
Israel annexed the West Bank and Gaza following a war with its Arab neighbours. We whiteys annexed the United States of America following a conquest of the indigenous peoples.
If you want a return to 1967 borders then presumably you want a return of America to its 1492 state also.
The current borders of the USA are agreed internationally.
Israel has occupied the West Bank and Gaza but not annexed them. It has annexed East Jerusalem. Hence the WB and Gaza are referred to as Occupied Territories.
Yes. But who agreed that the current borders of the USA are sacrosanct. The Navajo?
The Navajo did sign a treaty with the US in 1868, yes.
And Egypt and Jordan have sign peace agreements with Israel too, without demanding their land back.
There is no international agreement as to who owns that land, because Egypt and Jordan relinquished the land but Israel hasn't (yet) annexed it.
Perhaps it will end with Israel annexing the WB and Gaza, and there's nothing wrong with that if that happens, but the Oslo accords said that the land would be negotiated between Israel and a future Palestinian state. I would like to see that happen, once Hamas are vanquished.
Egypt and Jordan relinquished their claims in favour of the State of Palestine in 1988.
Most of the United States was bought, not conquered: For example, the Louisiana purchase, much of the southwest after the Mexican-American War*, Florida, the Gadsden purchase, and Alaska. (If you want to say the US often bought stolen goods, I won't argue with you.)
There were many smaller purchases of land from tribes, after those large ones.
Before the Revolution, European settlers often bought land, famously Manhattan, less well-known but more important, parts of what is now eastern Pennsylvania, and so on.
(*That's right, after winning the war with Mexico, the US paid Mexico for the land.)
Did they get it at a knockdown price due to winning the war?
Still, quite appropriate for the USA to have purchased its way to the top, that's the nouveau riche for you.
Real countries do it the hard way, through the blood of peasants or marrying a pair of cousins together.
Most of the United States was bought, not conquered: For example, the Louisiana purchase, much of the southwest after the Mexican-American War*, Florida, the Gadsden purchase, and Alaska. (If you want to say the US often bought stolen goods, I won't argue with you.)
There were many smaller purchases of land from tribes, after those large ones.
Before the Revolution, European settlers often bought land, famously Manhattan, less well-known but more important, parts of what is now eastern Pennsylvania, and so on.
(*That's right, after winning the war with Mexico, the US paid Mexico for the land.)
Oh dear. Another one who needs to acquaint themselves with what actually happened. As with so many topics The Rest is History podcast has an excellent series on this. Go listen.
You are delusional if you think they don't, or can be negotiated with.
I've proposed a solution to this cycle of violence, you have not.
You are just delusional, with no solutions.
So you think the US and UK are also delusional with no solutions?
Yes.
I think they're pandering to people like you, safe in the knowledge that they don't need to come up with a solution themselves.
You are unhinged.
No I'm not, I'm being a realist.
A real realist, not one of those fake ones who wants to kowtow to Russia.
Oh sod off with this Russia nonsense. You are a warmonger and you're lost.
War is necessary sometimes.
When faced by absolute evil, yes it needs to be destroyed at war sometimes.
You are an appeaser.
You think everyone on this board is an appeaser. You are crazy.
No I think only those who don't want Russia and Hamas defeated are appeasers.
I think I am the only PBer who wants both a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders, and a free, secure Israel restored to its 1967 borders.
Not the only one. Me too.
Where do you stand on the whole North America thing.
I think those countries should stick to their internationally agreed borders too.
Israel annexed the West Bank and Gaza following a war with its Arab neighbours. We whiteys annexed the United States of America following a conquest of the indigenous peoples.
If you want a return to 1967 borders then presumably you want a return of America to its 1492 state also.
The current borders of the USA are agreed internationally.
Israel has occupied the West Bank and Gaza but not annexed them. It has annexed East Jerusalem. Hence the WB and Gaza are referred to as Occupied Territories.
Yes but Jordan and Egypt have relinquished their claims on WB and Gaza.
Israel agreed to the Oslo Accords which agreed that the future Israeli border is a matter for negotiations. You are acting as if Israeli is not entitled to any of the WB and Gaza, when that is not what the Oslo Accords agreed.
No country recognises the Israeli annexation of East Jerusalem or Golan Heights.
Many Israelis do not support annexation of WB and Gaza, because that would Imperial the Jewish majority in Israel, unless the Palestinian citizens were either denied political rights, expelled or exterminated.
How does that go against any of what I said?
The Oslo Accords said that the future of Gaza and the West Bank is for negotiations. Its no longer Egyptian or Jordanian, but nor is it agreed to be Israeli, nor is it agreed to be Palestinian.
Yet you are acting as if it is one of those. Why?
I am simply saying the entire WB and Gaza lie outside the internationally agreed 1967 Israeli borders.
You are delusional if you think they don't, or can be negotiated with.
I've proposed a solution to this cycle of violence, you have not.
You are just delusional, with no solutions.
So you think the US and UK are also delusional with no solutions?
Yes.
I think they're pandering to people like you, safe in the knowledge that they don't need to come up with a solution themselves.
You are unhinged.
No I'm not, I'm being a realist.
A real realist, not one of those fake ones who wants to kowtow to Russia.
Oh sod off with this Russia nonsense. You are a warmonger and you're lost.
War is necessary sometimes.
When faced by absolute evil, yes it needs to be destroyed at war sometimes.
You are an appeaser.
You think everyone on this board is an appeaser. You are crazy.
No I think only those who don't want Russia and Hamas defeated are appeasers.
I think I am the only PBer who wants both a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders, and a free, secure Israel restored to its 1967 borders.
Not the only one. Me too.
Where do you stand on the whole North America thing.
I think those countries should stick to their internationally agreed borders too.
Israel annexed the West Bank and Gaza following a war with its Arab neighbours. We whiteys annexed the United States of America following a conquest of the indigenous peoples.
If you want a return to 1967 borders then presumably you want a return of America to its 1492 state also.
The current borders of the USA are agreed internationally.
Israel has occupied the West Bank and Gaza but not annexed them. It has annexed East Jerusalem. Hence the WB and Gaza are referred to as Occupied Territories.
Yes but Jordan and Egypt have relinquished their claims on WB and Gaza.
Israel agreed to the Oslo Accords which agreed that the future Israeli border is a matter for negotiations. You are acting as if Israeli is not entitled to any of the WB and Gaza, when that is not what the Oslo Accords agreed.
No country recognises the Israeli annexation of East Jerusalem or Golan Heights.
Many Israelis do not support annexation of WB and Gaza, because that would Imperial the Jewish majority in Israel, unless the Palestinian citizens were either denied political rights , expelled or exterminated.
Not the point. Even the UN doesn't mandate Israel to "return" them.
It doesn't, but the UN also refuses to recognise Israels annexation of East Jerusalem..
Do you accept that at present Isael has not annexed WB and Gaza?
You are delusional if you think they don't, or can be negotiated with.
I've proposed a solution to this cycle of violence, you have not.
You are just delusional, with no solutions.
So you think the US and UK are also delusional with no solutions?
Yes.
I think they're pandering to people like you, safe in the knowledge that they don't need to come up with a solution themselves.
You are unhinged.
No I'mAn not, I'm being a realist.
A real realist, not one of those fake ones who wants to kowtow to Russia.
Oh sod off with this Russia nonsense. You are a warmonger and you're lost.
War is necessary sometimes.
When faced by absolute evil, yes it needs to be destroyed at war sometimes.
You are an appeaser.
You think everyone on this board is an appeaser. You are crazy.
No I think only those who don't want Russia and Hamas defeated are appeasers.
I think I am the only PBer who wants both a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders, and a free, secure Israel restored to its 1967 borders.
Not the only one. Me too.
Where do you stand on the whole North America thing.
I think those countries should stick to their internationally agreed borders too.
Israel annexed the West Bank and Gaza following a war with its Arab neighbours. We whiteys annexed the United States of America following a conquest of the indigenous peoples.
If you want a return to 1967 borders then presumably you want a return of America to its 1492 state also.
The current borders of the USA are agreed internationally.
Israel has occupied the West Bank and Gaza but not annexed them. It has annexed East Jerusalem. Hence the WB and Gaza are referred to as Occupied Territories.
Yes. But who agreed that the current borders of the USA are sacrosanct. The Navajo?
The Navajo did sign a treaty with the US in 1868, yes.
And Egypt and Jordan have sign peace agreements with Israel too, without demanding their land back.
There is no international agreement as to who owns that land, because Egypt and Jordan relinquished the land but Israel hasn't (yet) annexed it.
Perhaps it will end with Israel annexing the WB and Gaza, and there's nothing wrong with that if that happens, but the Oslo accords said that the land would be negotiated between Israel and a future Palestinian state. I would like to see that happen, once Hamas are vanquished.
I don't think that's right. I don't think Gaza was ever part of Egypt. It was a part of mandate Palestine that was intended for an Arab state. I don't think there's been any subsequent agreement that supercedes that intent, so that is still the status quo, I believe.
You are delusional if you think they don't, or can be negotiated with.
I've proposed a solution to this cycle of violence, you have not.
You are just delusional, with no solutions.
So you think the US and UK are also delusional with no solutions?
Yes.
I think they're pandering to people like you, safe in the knowledge that they don't need to come up with a solution themselves.
You are unhinged.
No I'm not, I'm being a realist.
A real realist, not one of those fake ones who wants to kowtow to Russia.
Oh sod off with this Russia nonsense. You are a warmonger and you're lost.
War is necessary sometimes.
When faced by absolute evil, yes it needs to be destroyed at war sometimes.
You are an appeaser.
You think everyone on this board is an appeaser. You are crazy.
No I think only those who don't want Russia and Hamas defeated are appeasers.
I think I am the only PBer who wants both a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders, and a free, secure Israel restored to its 1967 borders.
Not the only one. Me too.
Where do you stand on the whole North America thing.
I think those countries should stick to their internationally agreed borders too.
Israel annexed the West Bank and Gaza following a war with its Arab neighbours. We whiteys annexed the United States of America following a conquest of the indigenous peoples.
If you want a return to 1967 borders then presumably you want a return of America to its 1492 state also.
The current borders of the USA are agreed internationally.
Israel has occupied the West Bank and Gaza but not annexed them. It has annexed East Jerusalem. Hence the WB and Gaza are referred to as Occupied Territories.
Yes but Jordan and Egypt have relinquished their claims on WB and Gaza.
Israel agreed to the Oslo Accords which agreed that the future Israeli border is a matter for negotiations. You are acting as if Israeli is not entitled to any of the WB and Gaza, when that is not what the Oslo Accords agreed.
No country recognises the Israeli annexation of East Jerusalem or Golan Heights.
Many Israelis do not support annexation of WB and Gaza, because that would Imperial the Jewish majority in Israel, unless the Palestinian citizens were either denied political rights , expelled or exterminated.
Not the point. Even the UN doesn't mandate Israel to "return" them.
It doesn't, but the UN also refuses to recognise Israels annexation of East Jerusalem..
Do you accept that at present Isael has not annexed WB and Gaza?
It has annexed the Golan Heights, and the WB Settlements.
You are delusional if you think they don't, or can be negotiated with.
I've proposed a solution to this cycle of violence, you have not.
You are just delusional, with no solutions.
So you think the US and UK are also delusional with no solutions?
Yes.
I think they're pandering to people like you, safe in the knowledge that they don't need to come up with a solution themselves.
You are unhinged.
No I'mAn not, I'm being a realist.
A real realist, not one of those fake ones who wants to kowtow to Russia.
Oh sod off with this Russia nonsense. You are a warmonger and you're lost.
War is necessary sometimes.
When faced by absolute evil, yes it needs to be destroyed at war sometimes.
You are an appeaser.
You think everyone on this board is an appeaser. You are crazy.
No I think only those who don't want Russia and Hamas defeated are appeasers.
I think I am the only PBer who wants both a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders, and a free, secure Israel restored to its 1967 borders.
Not the only one. Me too.
Where do you stand on the whole North America thing.
I think those countries should stick to their internationally agreed borders too.
Israel annexed the West Bank and Gaza following a war with its Arab neighbours. We whiteys annexed the United States of America following a conquest of the indigenous peoples.
If you want a return to 1967 borders then presumably you want a return of America to its 1492 state also.
The current borders of the USA are agreed internationally.
Israel has occupied the West Bank and Gaza but not annexed them. It has annexed East Jerusalem. Hence the WB and Gaza are referred to as Occupied Territories.
Yes. But who agreed that the current borders of the USA are sacrosanct. The Navajo?
The Navajo did sign a treaty with the US in 1868, yes.
And Egypt and Jordan have sign peace agreements with Israel too, without demanding their land back.
There is no international agreement as to who owns that land, because Egypt and Jordan relinquished the land but Israel hasn't (yet) annexed it.
Perhaps it will end with Israel annexing the WB and Gaza, and there's nothing wrong with that if that happens, but the Oslo accords said that the land would be negotiated between Israel and a future Palestinian state. I would like to see that happen, once Hamas are vanquished.
I don't think that's right. I don't think Gaza was ever part of Egypt. It was a part of mandate Palestine that was intended for an Arab state. I don't think there's been any subsequent agreement that supercedes that intent, so that is still the status quo, I believe.
Comments
They can't win, eh.
2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes?
3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
A real realist, not one of those fake ones who wants to kowtow to Russia.
When faced by absolute evil, yes it needs to be destroyed at war sometimes.
You are an appeaser.
I think that Israel does let the hotheads run the show. After all many are in government there.
Ceasefire is the opposite of defeat.
I thought being a military strategist you'd know this.
That is the tragedy of the WCK incident. The WCK was one of the first aid agencies to come to the aid of the Israelis on October 7th.
Covertly going after a couple of people may be possible, though its time consuming and difficult and expensive.
Trying to defeat an enemy institution requires much more.
Anyone out of window following your policy would be immediately replaced as they'd be so far between each one.
Trump is orange.
There are still lots of hostages held by Hamas.
That you refuse to answer is itself the answer.
Your heroes would have kept on killing until they ran out of the means to do so. Although as @turbotubbs had noted there are plenty of rocks around which might have prolonged things.
Everyone who fights for or supports Hamas dead or surrenders.
I've been unequivocal on that since the beginning.
Extremely low carb too.
Before I was on my current diet, salmon and avocado sushi was one of my favourite treats.
STOP them playing football with their hands
STOP them driving on the wrong side of the road
STOP them being obsessed with guns
STOP them mispronouncing words like "water"
STOP them spelling words like "color", er, I mean "colour" incorrectly.
There!
You are asking Israel to change strategy by not fighting Hamas, so it is a very relevant hypothetical to consider how well that strategy would have worked if pursued early last October.
The Oslo accords agreed that the future border was a matter for negotiations. Jordan and Egypt have relinquished their claim on the disputed land in the Middle East and the Palestinians don't automatically inherit that right.
If you want a return to 1967 borders then presumably you want a return of America to its 1492 state also.
And until that changes, nothing changes.
Israel has occupied the West Bank and Gaza but not annexed them. It has annexed East Jerusalem. Hence the WB and Gaza are referred to as Occupied Territories.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-gaza-ai-database-hamas-airstrikes
The Israeli military’s bombing campaign in Gaza used a previously undisclosed AI-powered database that at one stage identified 37,000 potential targets based on their apparent links to Hamas, according to intelligence sources involved in the war.
In addition to talking about their use of the AI system, called Lavender, the intelligence sources claim that Israeli military officials permitted large numbers of Palestinian civilians to be killed, particularly during the early weeks and months of the conflict.
Their unusually candid testimony provides a rare glimpse into the first-hand experiences of Israeli intelligence officials who have been using machine-learning systems to help identify targets during the six-month war.
Israel’s use of powerful AI systems in its war on Hamas has entered uncharted territory for advanced warfare, raising a host of legal and moral questions, and transforming the relationship between military personnel and machines.
“This is unparalleled, in my memory,” said one intelligence officer who used Lavender, adding that they had more faith in a “statistical mechanism” than a grieving soldier. “Everyone there, including me, lost people on October 7. The machine did it coldly. And that made it easier.”
Another Lavender user questioned whether humans’ role in the selection process was meaningful. “I would invest 20 seconds for each target at this stage, and do dozens of them every day. I had zero added-value as a human, apart from being a stamp of approval. It saved a lot of time.”..
.. Several of the sources described how, for certain categories of targets, the IDF applied pre-authorised allowances for the estimated number of civilians who could be killed before a strike was authorised.
Two sources said that during the early weeks of the war they were permitted to kill 15 or 20 civilians during airstrikes on low-ranking militants. Attacks on such targets were typically carried out using unguided munitions known as “dumb bombs”, the sources said, destroying entire homes and killing all their occupant….
Israel agreed to the Oslo Accords which agreed that the future Israeli border is a matter for negotiations. You are acting as if Israeli is not entitled to any of the WB and Gaza, when that is not what the Oslo Accords agreed.
Start with Linda Polman's books on the subject.
There were many smaller purchases of land from tribes, after those large ones.
Before the Revolution, European settlers often bought land, famously Manhattan, less well-known but more important, parts of what is now eastern Pennsylvania, and so on.
(*That's right, after winning the war with Mexico, the US paid Mexico for the land.)
Everyone who isn’t Bart is an appeaser.
There is no international agreement as to who owns that land, because Egypt and Jordan relinquished the land but Israel hasn't (yet) annexed it.
Perhaps it will end with Israel annexing the WB and Gaza, and there's nothing wrong with that if that happens, but the Oslo accords said that the land would be negotiated between Israel and a future Palestinian state. I would like to see that happen, once Hamas are vanquished.
Many Israelis do not support annexation of WB and Gaza, because that would Imperial the Jewish majority in Israel, unless the Palestinian citizens were either denied political rights, expelled or exterminated.
Israeli government says it will block Al Jazeera from broadcasting
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68708984
(In the UK, Al Jaz is freely available on Freeview 235.)
The Oslo Accords said that the future of Gaza and the West Bank is for negotiations. Its no longer Egyptian or Jordanian, but nor is it agreed to be Israeli, nor is it agreed to be Palestinian.
Yet you are acting as if it is one of those. Why?
Do you accept that at present Isael has not annexed WB and Gaza?
Still, quite appropriate for the USA to have purchased its way to the top, that's the nouveau riche for you.
Real countries do it the hard way, through the blood of peasants or marrying a pair of cousins together.
Call me CorrectHorseAppeaser