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Angela, Angela, when will those clouds all disappear? – politicalbetting.com

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    LeonLeon Posts: 48,088
    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    As Christopher Columbus said: the more you travel the more you know

    I had to leave for 6 months to see London for what it is. Cold rainy sometimes violent - but absolutely astonishing. A peak moment in human civilisation

    What would you say elevates it above other major cities? There are bigger ones, ones which are very diverse and vibrant etc

    Genuine question.
    Sophistication, culture, architecture, history, elegance, vibe, and... a certain... THING

    If you'te in the middle of central London drinking on a rainy Thursday night you are probably quite elite in some way: beauty, money, class, style, youth, talent, knapping skill. You are surrounded by similar people. It feels right and good, you are chosen, this is how the world should be

    A great world city functions like a kind of private members' club. Its innate expense and hassle excludes the boring, the old, the stupid, and the poor

    Yeah manchester is probably our 2nd city but it feels nothing like london at all and round Piccadilly Gardens is pretty sketchy. However compared to shitholes like Bradford its still a veritable metropolis.
    To be a little more serious, Edinburgh is surely the UK's second city. It has political power and cultural prestige that Manchester can only dream of, and it is infinitely more beautiful than Manchester, indeed its more beautiful than London in terms of architectural coherence. Edinburgh has a good claim to be in the top ten most beautiful cities on the planet - London. by contrast, is too varied and weird to ever claim this. London has many moments of intense beauty, and many moments of intense ugliness

    But, fuck me, Edinburgh, you need to knock down the Jobbie Building, and the Holyrood Parliament. They are two of the horriblest things ever made and a good summary of Scotland under the SNP
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,177
    kle4 said:

    Cookie said:

    Anyway. Happy Easter everyone.
    I bloody love Easter. Easter asks absolutely nothing of you. It doesn't give you a list of things to do; doesn't ask you to wear fancy dress, or to feel a certain emotion. Greetings cards companies might see a market for their product, but they're fooling no-one. All Easter does is come along without you really budgeting for it and gives you a lovely long weekend.
    I'm going to have a lie in tomorrow. Christ may be risen, but I'm not planning on following his example until gone 10.

    The rising will be on Sunday. I'm afraid the Friday didn't go that well for him.
    Could have been worse. Jesus was an ascetic and in fairly good shape so he survived longer on the cross than usual. A kind-hearted Roman soldier administered the coup de grace but missed his vital organs. Jesus was still alive when they took him to Gethsemane and sealed the tomb. Luckily, for Jesus, tomb robbers turned up on Saturday (when the locals were otherwise engaged) and had the freight of their lives when they rolled away the boulder and were met with a cheery 'Shalom' from a bloke in a shroud. They scarpered pdq and Jesus wandered off looking for a bite to eat. When Mary'n'Mary showed up on the Lord's Day they jumped to the obvious, if fallacious, conclusion. The rest, as they say, is History.
    Yep, three options.

    1. He wasn't dead.
    2. Someone or some people removed his body.
    3. He rose from the dead.

    Actually, four options...

    4. The biblical account is a fictionalised
    version of events.

    If someone was offering odds, I think number 3 would be the 1,000,000/1 outsider.
    Then you get to the C S Lewis question.

    If you are right then why were so many of the apostles - who presumably knew the truth - willing to suffer torture and martyrdom for a lie?
    People die for lies all the time, for regimes or groups they must know have done terrible things as just one example. But in any case a simple answer would be that even people very closest to the actual
    historical events, whatever those might have been, may have perceived or
    interpreted the truth very differently, may
    have believed in miraculous explanations.

    If 'why would X do Y if it were not true?' wouldn't all religions be true, since people
    at the start of them must have 'known' and died (or killed) for it?
    Not really buying that.

    Christianity is the only real example (I think) of a subversive movement which was systematically persecuted by the authorities (both Jewish and Roman).

    Judaism was pre-history; Islam was a tribal power play. Don’t know enough about the origins of Hinduism or Buddhism to apply the theory.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,545
    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve been away so london feels like a foreign city. A really IMPRESSIVE foreign city

    What an odd feeling

    Central London is impressive one of the great cities of the world. I would say only New York City compares.
    London is a magnificent glittering prosperous world city, full of beautiful women. When you go away for six months, you realise this when you return

    Also the Groucho is really hopping. Astonishing. Haven’t seen it this full since pre Covid. And it’s a rainy chilly midweek night. Encouraging

    How many of the beautiful women are native English?
  • Options
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve been away so london feels like a foreign city. A really IMPRESSIVE foreign city

    What an odd feeling

    Central London is impressive one of the great cities of the world. I would say only New York City compares.
    London is a magnificent glittering prosperous world city, full of beautiful women. When you go away for six months, you realise this when you return

    Also the Groucho is really hopping. Astonishing. Haven’t seen it this full since pre Covid. And it’s a rainy chilly midweek night. Encouraging

    How many of the beautiful women are native English?
    Oh I don't know, your Mum seemed pretty keen last night
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,140
    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    As Christopher Columbus said: the more you travel the more you know

    I had to leave for 6 months to see London for what it is. Cold rainy sometimes violent - but absolutely astonishing. A peak moment in human civilisation

    What would you say elevates it above other major cities? There are bigger ones, ones which are very diverse and vibrant etc

    Genuine question.
    Sophistication, culture, architecture, history, elegance, vibe, and... a certain... THING

    If you'te in the middle of central London drinking on a rainy Thursday night you are probably quite elite in some way: beauty, money, class, style, youth, talent, knapping skill. You are surrounded by similar people. It feels right and good, you are chosen, this is how the world should be

    A great world city functions like a kind of private members' club. Its innate expense and hassle excludes the boring, the old, the stupid, and the poor

    Yeah manchester is probably our 2nd city but it feels nothing like london at all and round Piccadilly Gardens is pretty sketchy. However compared to shitholes like Bradford its still a veritable metropolis.
    To be a little more serious, Edinburgh is surely the UK's second city. It has political power and cultural prestige that Manchester can only dream of, and it is infinitely more beautiful than Manchester, indeed its more beautiful than London in terms of architectural coherence. Edinburgh has a good claim to be in the top ten most beautiful cities on the planet - London. by contrast, is too varied and weird to ever claim this. London has many moments of intense beauty, and many moments of intense ugliness

    But, fuck me, Edinburgh, you need to knock down the Jobbie Building, and the Holyrood Parliament. They are two of the horriblest things ever made and a good summary of Scotland under the SNP
    Holyrood was erected under a Labour-led national and Scottish administration, to be fair.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,545
    edited March 28
    O/T

    It's amazing to consider that missing plane MH370 might finally be located by the humble radio signal, signals generated by amateur radio enthusiasts. Who could have predicted that?

    https://www.liverpool.ac.uk/science-and-engineering/news/articles/university-researchers-provide-statistical-expertise-to-help-locate-mh370

    Also at 40 mins on this BBC documentary from a few weeks ago.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001x0yh/why-planes-vanish-the-hunt-for-mh370
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,088
    TimS said:

    For those bemoaning the shit weather…there’s plenty more to come.

    We’ve got ourselves into one of those ruts which - you’re not imagining it - are more common and more prolonged and rutty in our warmer world.

    A few weeks ago a sudden stratospheric warming turned high level winds backwards around the pole and forced the jet stream South, where it’s been for most of the month even in that warming week mid-March. That combined with a mature El Niño (similar effect in late winter) is bringing us our cold wet weather. But next week the jet strengthens and things go more Westerly, so we’re into a repeating unsettled pattern until at least next weekend.

    Well over a month of rainfall in the next week across most of Western Europe. Up to 3 metres of new snow in higher parts of the Swiss alps. Flooding likely everywhere.

    Meanwhile ridiculously prolonged record breaking heatwaves across much of the tropics.

    Changeable westerlys would be preferable to a conveyor belt of grey shite

    I read today that Stornoway had twice the sunshine hours of Brighton in February (IIRC) a quite remarkable statistic if true. The jet stream is so evilly far south northern scotland (esp N eastern Scotland) is now getting more sun than Kent and Sussex, which is seemingly corroborated by smug Scots on PB

    Meanwhile I was in the tropics for that record breaking heat. Last April in Bangkok I (unfortunately) experienced Bangkok's hottest ever day to that point

    https://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/2564979/searing-heat-a-wake-up-call

    And in Santa Marta Colombia I recently experienced one of THAT city's hottest ever days


    https://english.elpais.com/climate/2024-02-01/heat-waves-in-chile-and-argentina-fires-in-colombia-what-is-happening-in-south-america.html

    This climatic change is now impossible to deny
  • Options
    ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,040
    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    As Christopher Columbus said: the more you travel the more you know

    I had to leave for 6 months to see London for what it is. Cold rainy sometimes violent - but absolutely astonishing. A peak moment in human civilisation

    What would you say elevates it above other major cities? There are bigger ones, ones which are very diverse and vibrant etc

    Genuine question.
    Sophistication, culture, architecture, history, elegance, vibe, and... a certain... THING

    If you'te in the middle of central London drinking on a rainy Thursday night you are probably quite elite in some way: beauty, money, class, style, youth, talent, knapping skill. You are surrounded by similar people. It feels right and good, you are chosen, this is how the world should be

    A great world city functions like a kind of private members' club. Its innate expense and hassle excludes the boring, the old, the stupid, and the poor

    Yeah manchester is probably our 2nd city but it feels nothing like london at all and round Piccadilly Gardens is pretty sketchy. However compared to shitholes like Bradford its still a veritable metropolis.
    To be a little more serious, Edinburgh is surely the UK's second city. It has political power and cultural prestige that Manchester can only dream of, and it is infinitely more beautiful than Manchester, indeed its more beautiful than London in terms of architectural coherence. Edinburgh has a good claim to be in the top ten most beautiful cities on the planet - London. by contrast, is too varied and weird to ever claim this. London has many moments of intense beauty, and many moments of intense ugliness

    But, fuck me, Edinburgh, you need to knock down the Jobbie Building, and the Holyrood Parliament. They are two of the horriblest things ever made and a good summary of Scotland under the SNP
    New Labour, afiak. Everyone else was in favour of using an older historic building.

  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,549
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    As Christopher Columbus said: the more you travel the more you know

    I had to leave for 6 months to see London for what it is. Cold rainy sometimes violent - but absolutely astonishing. A peak moment in human civilisation

    What would you say elevates it above other major cities? There are bigger ones, ones which are very diverse and vibrant etc

    Genuine question.
    Sophistication, culture, architecture, history, elegance, vibe, and... a certain... THING

    If you'te in the middle of central London drinking on a rainy Thursday night you are probably quite elite in some way: beauty, money, class, style, youth, talent, knapping skill. You are surrounded by similar people. It feels right and good, you are chosen, this is how the world should be

    A great world city functions like a kind of private members' club. Its innate expense and hassle excludes the boring, the old, the stupid, and the poor

    Yeah manchester is probably our 2nd city but it feels nothing like london at all and round Piccadilly Gardens is pretty sketchy. However compared to shitholes like Bradford its still a veritable metropolis.
    To be a little more serious, Edinburgh is surely the UK's second city. It has political power and cultural prestige that Manchester can only dream of, and it is infinitely more beautiful than Manchester, indeed its more beautiful than London in terms of architectural coherence. Edinburgh has a good claim to be in the top ten most beautiful cities on the planet - London. by contrast, is too varied and weird to ever claim this. London has many moments of intense beauty, and many moments of intense ugliness

    But, fuck me, Edinburgh, you need to knock down the Jobbie Building, and the Holyrood Parliament. They are two of the horriblest things ever made and a good summary of Scotland under the SNP
    Holyrood was erected under a Labour-led national and Scottish administration, to be fair.
    We love Edinburgh, lived and worked there, and agree with @Leon description of the City including the dreadful Holyrood Parliament building
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,088
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    As Christopher Columbus said: the more you travel the more you know

    I had to leave for 6 months to see London for what it is. Cold rainy sometimes violent - but absolutely astonishing. A peak moment in human civilisation

    What would you say elevates it above other major cities? There are bigger ones, ones which are very diverse and vibrant etc

    Genuine question.
    Sophistication, culture, architecture, history, elegance, vibe, and... a certain... THING

    If you'te in the middle of central London drinking on a rainy Thursday night you are probably quite elite in some way: beauty, money, class, style, youth, talent, knapping skill. You are surrounded by similar people. It feels right and good, you are chosen, this is how the world should be

    A great world city functions like a kind of private members' club. Its innate expense and hassle excludes the boring, the old, the stupid, and the poor

    Yeah manchester is probably our 2nd city but it feels nothing like london at all and round Piccadilly Gardens is pretty sketchy. However compared to shitholes like Bradford its still a veritable metropolis.
    To be a little more serious, Edinburgh is surely the UK's second city. It has political power and cultural prestige that Manchester can only dream of, and it is infinitely more beautiful than Manchester, indeed its more beautiful than London in terms of architectural coherence. Edinburgh has a good claim to be in the top ten most beautiful cities on the planet - London. by contrast, is too varied and weird to ever claim this. London has many moments of intense beauty, and many moments of intense ugliness

    But, fuck me, Edinburgh, you need to knock down the Jobbie Building, and the Holyrood Parliament. They are two of the horriblest things ever made and a good summary of Scotland under the SNP
    Holyrood was erected under a Labour-led national and Scottish administration, to be fair.
    Indeed, a bit of trolling there

    But they are fucking hideous, tho. I'm not trolling there. Holyrood is a disgusting pile of absurdly expensive dreck, probably the ugliest parliament building on earth, with some tough competition from New Zealand; and the Jobbie Building manages to be even WORSE, through the brisk expedient of closely and carefully resembling a turd
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,088
    Well done, Scotland


    "Scottish Parliament: Edinburgh building named 'world's ugliest'"

    "The Scottish Parliament has been crowned the world’s ugliest and most despised building in a new poll."

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23286379.scottish-parliament-edinburgh-building-named-worlds-ugliest/
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,102
    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    Picking up on Post Office related crimes:

    I'm reminded of the scandal that engulfs Villefort at the end of The Count of Monte Cristo. As a journalist leaves, he asks one of the guards what he thinks will happen to Villefort who has just admitted infanticide, concealing a death and conspiring to pervert the course of justice.

    The guard simply replies, 'They'll find extenuating circumstances.'

    I sadly suspect something similar will happen here.

    #NU10K

    The defining characteristic is that failure leads to a better job. And the belief that this is their *right*

    Recall the lady who transferred to the CoE and was shocked that she wasn’t catapulted to the Bishopric of London by her 3rd day on the job?
    We have evidence that she was shocked?

    I think she lost because the woman who got the job was a better candidate.
    A cup of tomato soup would have been a better candidate.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,088
    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    As Christopher Columbus said: the more you travel the more you know

    I had to leave for 6 months to see London for what it is. Cold rainy sometimes violent - but absolutely astonishing. A peak moment in human civilisation

    What would you say elevates it above other major cities? There are bigger ones, ones which are very diverse and vibrant etc

    Genuine question.
    Sophistication, culture, architecture, history, elegance, vibe, and... a certain... THING

    If you'te in the middle of central London drinking on a rainy Thursday night you are probably quite elite in some way: beauty, money, class, style, youth, talent, knapping skill. You are surrounded by similar people. It feels right and good, you are chosen, this is how the world should be

    A great world city functions like a kind of private members' club. Its innate expense and hassle excludes the boring, the old, the stupid, and the poor

    Yeah manchester is probably our 2nd city but it feels nothing like london at all and round Piccadilly Gardens is pretty sketchy. However compared to shitholes like Bradford its still a veritable metropolis.
    To be a little more serious, Edinburgh is surely the UK's second city. It has political power and cultural prestige that Manchester can only dream of, and it is infinitely more beautiful than Manchester, indeed its more beautiful than London in terms of architectural coherence. Edinburgh has a good claim to be in the top ten most beautiful cities on the planet - London. by contrast, is too varied and weird to ever claim this. London has many moments of intense beauty, and many moments of intense ugliness

    But, fuck me, Edinburgh, you need to knock down the Jobbie Building, and the Holyrood Parliament. They are two of the horriblest things ever made and a good summary of Scotland under the SNP
    New Labour, afiak. Everyone else was in favour of using an older historic building.

    There's a whole book to be written about how Scotland and Edinburgh ended up with the grotesque and ferociously expensive wart that is Holyrood. NO ONE LIKES IT. Look on Trip Advisor. It is universally despised, tourists hate it and locals hate it, worldwide opinion polls consistently rate it as one of the most fugly buildings on earth, beating out modernist horrors like Boston City Hall, Monparnasse Tower and the Hoover building in DC (and I have seen all three, and if you are uglier than those: wow)

    How do terrifyingly hideous yet fantastically expensive buildings get made? There seems to be a point where so much money is invested - and so much emotion and time - no one is willing to stand up and say Wait, this is shit. Huge movies that turn out to be turkeys are similar, as are prestige railways - like HS2

    So the horrific expense of Holyrood - ten times over budget - is actually one of the reasons it was completed, and why it now blights one of the most beautiful cities on earth, seemingly forever. Sunk Cost



  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,545
    Just noticed this.

    "Post Office scandal: outrage as Channel 4 News reveals covert recordings"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAhbvkVndr4
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,815
    Andy_JS said:

    "Two-thirds of Britons want ban on smartphones for under-16s

    Survey results hailed as ‘tipping point’ when public recognises devices have ‘transformed childhood’ for the ‘worse’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/24/two-thirds-of-britons-want-ban-on-smartphones-for-under-16s/

    IIRC that's what their grandparents said about rock & roll music?

    And what their great-grandparents said about the motor car?

    And what their great-great-grandparents said about . . .
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 19,109
    edited March 28
    kle4 said:

    Trent said:

    Oh dear Andrew Bridgens on the grift. Can anyone spare him some change.

    My case against Matt Hancock is on the cusp of exposing his unlawful behaviour. Mr Hancock has chosen not to file a defence, nearly 6 months into the case, which speaks volumes. His attempt to have the claim struck out failed. However there is a costs order of £44,300 to pay by next week and the crowd fund is running low. If anyone can help please let me know. I can be contacted at andrewbridgen1@protonmail.com.
    The crowd fund is at: https://democracythree.org/en-gb/en-gb/the_day_democracy_died_andrew_bridgen
    8:11 PM · Mar 28, 2024
    ·
    88.4K
    Views

    https://x.com/ABridgen/status/1773442696419385788?s=20

    How very american politician of him.
    Perhaps he needs to go on "I'm a Celebrity" to raise some cash?

    His Register of Interests makes interesting reading.

    In May 2023 he had £87k of crowdfunding fund for his legal action was £87k, of which he had only drawn down £4k.

    From 12 May 2023, crowdfunding support for a defamation action. Crowdfunder website is Democracy 3.0. The fund is valued at £87,080 of 31 May 2023, with a total of £4,319 drawn down for court fees to date. (Registered 12 June 2023) This is a late entry to which the rectification procedure was applied on 23 January 2024. Paragraph 51 of the Procedural Protocol in respect of the Code of Conduct refers. (Registered 12 June 2023)

    He's also got a hell of a lot of stuff which is late entries. I don't know exactly what all the notes mean, not being a turbo-nerd on this aspect.

    https://www.theyworkforyou.com/regmem/?p=24741
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 6,268
    edited March 28
    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    As Christopher Columbus said: the more you travel the more you know

    I had to leave for 6 months to see London for what it is. Cold rainy sometimes violent - but absolutely astonishing. A peak moment in human civilisation

    What would you say elevates it above other major cities? There are bigger ones, ones which are very diverse and vibrant etc

    Genuine question.
    Sophistication, culture, architecture, history, elegance, vibe, and... a certain... THING

    If you'te in the middle of central London drinking on a rainy Thursday night you are probably quite elite in some way: beauty, money, class, style, youth, talent, knapping skill. You are surrounded by similar people. It feels right and good, you are chosen, this is how the world should be

    A great world city functions like a kind of private members' club. Its innate expense and hassle excludes the boring, the old, the stupid, and the poor

    Yeah manchester is probably our 2nd city but it feels nothing like london at all and round Piccadilly Gardens is pretty sketchy. However compared to shitholes like Bradford its still a veritable metropolis.
    To be a little more serious, Edinburgh is surely the UK's second city. It has political power and cultural prestige that Manchester can only dream of, and it is infinitely more beautiful than Manchester, indeed its more beautiful than London in terms of architectural coherence. Edinburgh has a good claim to be in the top ten most beautiful cities on the planet - London. by contrast, is too varied and weird to ever claim this. London has many moments of intense beauty, and many moments of intense ugliness

    But, fuck me, Edinburgh, you need to knock down the Jobbie Building, and the Holyrood Parliament. They are two of the horriblest things ever made and a good summary of Scotland under the SNP
    New Labour, afiak. Everyone else was in favour of using an older historic building.

    There's a whole book to be written about how Scotland and Edinburgh ended up with the grotesque and ferociously expensive wart that is Holyrood. NO ONE LIKES IT. Look on Trip Advisor. It is universally despised, tourists hate it and locals hate it, worldwide opinion polls consistently rate it as one of the most fugly buildings on earth, beating out modernist horrors like Boston City Hall, Monparnasse Tower and the Hoover building in DC (and I have seen all three, and if you are uglier than those: wow)

    How do terrifyingly hideous yet fantastically expensive buildings get made? There seems to be a point where so much money is invested - and so much emotion and time - no one is willing to stand up and say Wait, this is shit. Huge movies that turn out to be turkeys are similar, as are prestige railways - like HS2

    So the horrific expense of Holyrood - ten times over budget - is actually one of the reasons it was completed, and why it now blights one of the most beautiful cities on earth, seemingly forever. Sunk Cost



    Holyrood (the parliament) is lovely inside. Good working environment, except for some spots that are inexplicably freezing. I agree on the exterior, but at least it kind of slots into the built and natural environment. As it has got dirtier it has started to blend into the rest of that part of the Old Town.

    The thing that really ruins it is the security wart extension on the main facade. Wrong stone and concrete, wrong angles, wrong shape. https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/archive/architects-pan-holyroods-clumsy-security-extension

    The jobbie hotel is easily fixed by just lopping off the swirl at the top. Otherwise it would look ok.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,088
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    As Christopher Columbus said: the more you travel the more you know

    I had to leave for 6 months to see London for what it is. Cold rainy sometimes violent - but absolutely astonishing. A peak moment in human civilisation

    What would you say elevates it above other major cities? There are bigger ones, ones which are very diverse and vibrant etc

    Genuine question.
    Sophistication, culture, architecture, history, elegance, vibe, and... a certain... THING

    If you'te in the middle of central London drinking on a rainy Thursday night you are probably quite elite in some way: beauty, money, class, style, youth, talent, knapping skill. You are surrounded by similar people. It feels right and good, you are chosen, this is how the world should be

    A great world city functions like a kind of private members' club. Its innate expense and hassle excludes the boring, the old, the stupid, and the poor

    Yeah manchester is probably our 2nd city but it feels nothing like london at all and round Piccadilly Gardens is pretty sketchy. However compared to shitholes like Bradford its still a veritable metropolis.
    To be a little more serious, Edinburgh is surely the UK's second city. It has political power and cultural prestige that Manchester can only dream of, and it is infinitely more beautiful than Manchester, indeed its more beautiful than London in terms of architectural coherence. Edinburgh has a good claim to be in the top ten most beautiful cities on the planet - London. by contrast, is too varied and weird to ever claim this. London has many moments of intense beauty, and many moments of intense ugliness

    But, fuck me, Edinburgh, you need to knock down the Jobbie Building, and the Holyrood Parliament. They are two of the horriblest things ever made and a good summary of Scotland under the SNP
    New Labour, afiak. Everyone else was in favour of using an older historic building.

    There's a whole book to be written about how Scotland and Edinburgh ended up with the grotesque and ferociously expensive wart that is Holyrood. NO ONE LIKES IT. Look on Trip Advisor. It is universally despised, tourists hate it and locals hate it, worldwide opinion polls consistently rate it as one of the most fugly buildings on earth, beating out modernist horrors like Boston City Hall, Monparnasse Tower and the Hoover building in DC (and I have seen all three, and if you are uglier than those: wow)

    How do terrifyingly hideous yet fantastically expensive buildings get made? There seems to be a point where so much money is invested - and so much emotion and time - no one is willing to stand up and say Wait, this is shit. Huge movies that turn out to be turkeys are similar, as are prestige railways - like HS2

    So the horrific expense of Holyrood - ten times over budget - is actually one of the reasons it was completed, and why it now blights one of the most beautiful cities on earth, seemingly forever. Sunk Cost



    Holyrood (the parliament) is lovely inside. Good working environment, except for some spots that are inexplicably freezing. I agree on the exterior, but at least it kind of slots into the built and natural environment. As it has got dirtier it has started to blend into the rest of that part of the Old Town.

    The thing that really ruins it is the security wart extension on the main facade. Wrong stone and concrete, wrong angles, wrong shape. https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/archive/architects-pan-holyroods-clumsy-security-extension

    The jobbie hotel is easily fixed by just lopping off the swirl at the top. Otherwise it would look ok.
    No, it doesn't "kind of slot". It is horrific, and you know it. This toilet of a building ruins a whole corner of Edinburgh, and it is meant to be a work of genius, and to epitomise Scottish sovereigtny! OMG

    A brilliant description here:

    "modern architectural design applied to a shopping mall complex that got abandoned during the 08′ recession somewhere in a new build scheme on the outskirts of Renfrew during a nuclear holocaust."

    That's from a Scot Nat, as well

    https://nuairathigairduinethigairuile.wordpress.com/2018/10/12/scotlands-shame-holyrood-when-a-bare-hill-would-have-been-better/

    The Jobbie Building needs to be knocked down ASAFP. Thankfully this shouldn't be hard as it is not iconic and faux-"celebrated" like Holyrood, I agree they could start with the turd-like twirl

    It's a damn shame because I love Edinburgh, and Scotland has loads of great architects who could have done miles better with a tenth of the money
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,953
    kle4 said:

    On political stories like Rayner's it's always worth trying to reverse the sides and see if they would defend their own conduct or not, as I believe some have attemped to put to her. They usually wouldn't, which is not definitive that the conduct is actually poor, but I think does mean you have to accept opponents making something of it to some degree, even if it is not typically as big a deal as they will state.

    The Rayner-equivalent story on the Tory side is Esther McVey living in one flat at the taxpayer's expense while renting out another she, or her husband, owns, that is just as close to Parliament. Rishi has today given a knighthood to McVey's husband, Philip Davies MP.

    Esther McVey claims thousands for London rent despite MP husband owning flat one mile away
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/esther-mcvey-claims-thousands-for-london-rent-despite-mp-husband-owning-flat-one-mile-away/ar-BB1keZ5V
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 19,109
    edited March 29
    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    As Christopher Columbus said: the more you travel the more you know

    I had to leave for 6 months to see London for what it is. Cold rainy sometimes violent - but absolutely astonishing. A peak moment in human civilisation

    What would you say elevates it above other major cities? There are bigger ones, ones which are very diverse and vibrant etc

    Genuine question.
    Sophistication, culture, architecture, history, elegance, vibe, and... a certain... THING

    If you'te in the middle of central London drinking on a rainy Thursday night you are probably quite elite in some way: beauty, money, class, style, youth, talent, knapping skill. You are surrounded by similar people. It feels right and good, you are chosen, this is how the world should be

    A great world city functions like a kind of private members' club. Its innate expense and hassle excludes the boring, the old, the stupid, and the poor

    Yeah manchester is probably our 2nd city but it feels nothing like london at all and round Piccadilly Gardens is pretty sketchy. However compared to shitholes like Bradford its still a veritable metropolis.
    To be a little more serious, Edinburgh is surely the UK's second city. It has political power and cultural prestige that Manchester can only dream of, and it is infinitely more beautiful than Manchester, indeed its more beautiful than London in terms of architectural coherence. Edinburgh has a good claim to be in the top ten most beautiful cities on the planet - London. by contrast, is too varied and weird to ever claim this. London has many moments of intense beauty, and many moments of intense ugliness

    But, fuck me, Edinburgh, you need to knock down the Jobbie Building, and the Holyrood Parliament. They are two of the horriblest things ever made and a good summary of Scotland under the SNP
    New Labour, afiak. Everyone else was in favour of using an older historic building.

    Yes. Nulab cockup. Not SNP.

    Is it the most proportionally over budget building in recent UK history? It's what slebrity architects with overblown imaginations do, when the client is a bit too lobotomised.

    It has one of the horrible sets of cycle stands in the world - cycle stands as artwork which makes them UTTERLY useless as cycle stands.

    Even this year I got some gyp from a travelling photographer thinking that form mattered wrt function on cycle parking, whilst it is absolutely dependent on function in place first, because I pointed that out on his fairly old photo.

    Let him park his car in a space with a cross gradient of 45 degrees, and see what he says then.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 19,109
    MattW said:

    kle4 said:

    Trent said:

    Oh dear Andrew Bridgens on the grift. Can anyone spare him some change.

    My case against Matt Hancock is on the cusp of exposing his unlawful behaviour. Mr Hancock has chosen not to file a defence, nearly 6 months into the case, which speaks volumes. His attempt to have the claim struck out failed. However there is a costs order of £44,300 to pay by next week and the crowd fund is running low. If anyone can help please let me know. I can be contacted at andrewbridgen1@protonmail.com.
    The crowd fund is at: https://democracythree.org/en-gb/en-gb/the_day_democracy_died_andrew_bridgen
    8:11 PM · Mar 28, 2024
    ·
    88.4K
    Views

    https://x.com/ABridgen/status/1773442696419385788?s=20

    How very american politician of him.
    Perhaps he needs to go on "I'm a Celebrity" to raise some cash?

    His Register of Interests makes interesting reading.

    In May 2023 he had £87k of crowdfunding fund for his legal action was £87k, of which he had only drawn down £4k.

    From 12 May 2023, crowdfunding support for a defamation action. Crowdfunder website is Democracy 3.0. The fund is valued at £87,080 of 31 May 2023, with a total of £4,319 drawn down for court fees to date. (Registered 12 June 2023) This is a late entry to which the rectification procedure was applied on 23 January 2024. Paragraph 51 of the Procedural Protocol in respect of the Code of Conduct refers. (Registered 12 June 2023)

    He's also got a hell of a lot of stuff which is late entries. I don't know exactly what all the notes mean, not being a turbo-nerd on this aspect.

    https://www.theyworkforyou.com/regmem/?p=24741
    Sorry - unintentional editing glitch around the 87k.
  • Options
    WillGWillG Posts: 2,182

    Andy_JS said:

    "Two-thirds of Britons want ban on smartphones for under-16s

    Survey results hailed as ‘tipping point’ when public recognises devices have ‘transformed childhood’ for the ‘worse’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/24/two-thirds-of-britons-want-ban-on-smartphones-for-under-16s/

    IIRC that's what their grandparents said about rock & roll music?

    And what their great-grandparents said about the motor car?

    And what their great-great-grandparents said about . . .
    Except the motor car and rock & roll didn't cause huge levels of mental health problems among kids.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,402
    WillG said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Two-thirds of Britons want ban on smartphones for under-16s

    Survey results hailed as ‘tipping point’ when public recognises devices have ‘transformed childhood’ for the ‘worse’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/24/two-thirds-of-britons-want-ban-on-smartphones-for-under-16s/

    IIRC that's what their grandparents said about rock & roll music?

    And what their great-grandparents said about the motor car?

    And what their great-great-grandparents said about . . .
    Except the motor car and rock & roll didn't cause huge levels of mental health problems among kids.
    I'm old enough to remember when the Daily Mail ran articles about whether Heavy Metal music was leading teenagers to mutilate and sacrifice pets.

  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,402

    kle4 said:

    Cookie said:

    Anyway. Happy Easter everyone.
    I bloody love Easter. Easter asks absolutely nothing of you. It doesn't give you a list of things to do; doesn't ask you to wear fancy dress, or to feel a certain emotion. Greetings cards companies might see a market for their product, but they're fooling no-one. All Easter does is come along without you really budgeting for it and gives you a lovely long weekend.
    I'm going to have a lie in tomorrow. Christ may be risen, but I'm not planning on following his example until gone 10.

    The rising will be on Sunday. I'm afraid the Friday didn't go that well for him.
    Could have been worse. Jesus was an ascetic and in fairly good shape so he survived longer on the cross than usual. A kind-hearted Roman soldier administered the coup de grace but missed his vital organs. Jesus was still alive when they took him to Gethsemane and sealed the tomb. Luckily, for Jesus, tomb robbers turned up on Saturday (when the locals were otherwise engaged) and had the freight of their lives when they rolled away the boulder and were met with a cheery 'Shalom' from a bloke in a shroud. They scarpered pdq and Jesus wandered off looking for a bite to eat. When Mary'n'Mary showed up on the Lord's Day they jumped to the obvious, if fallacious, conclusion. The rest, as they say, is History.
    Yep, three options.

    1. He wasn't dead.
    2. Someone or some people removed his body.
    3. He rose from the dead.

    Actually, four options...

    4. The biblical account is a fictionalised
    version of events.

    If someone was offering odds, I think number 3 would be the 1,000,000/1 outsider.
    Then you get to the C S Lewis question.

    If you are right then why were so many of the apostles - who presumably knew the truth - willing to suffer torture and martyrdom for a lie?
    People die for lies all the time, for regimes or groups they must know have done terrible things as just one example. But in any case a simple answer would be that even people very closest to the actual
    historical events, whatever those might have been, may have perceived or
    interpreted the truth very differently, may
    have believed in miraculous explanations.

    If 'why would X do Y if it were not true?' wouldn't all religions be true, since people
    at the start of them must have 'known' and died (or killed) for it?
    Not really buying that.

    Christianity is the only real example (I think) of a subversive movement which was systematically persecuted by the authorities (both Jewish and Roman).

    Judaism was pre-history; Islam was a tribal power play. Don’t know enough about the origins of Hinduism or Buddhism to apply the theory.
    Scientology?

    (Ducks)
  • Options
    WillGWillG Posts: 2,182

    kle4 said:

    Cookie said:

    Anyway. Happy Easter everyone.
    I bloody love Easter. Easter asks absolutely nothing of you. It doesn't give you a list of things to do; doesn't ask you to wear fancy dress, or to feel a certain emotion. Greetings cards companies might see a market for their product, but they're fooling no-one. All Easter does is come along without you really budgeting for it and gives you a lovely long weekend.
    I'm going to have a lie in tomorrow. Christ may be risen, but I'm not planning on following his example until gone 10.

    The rising will be on Sunday. I'm afraid the Friday didn't go that well for him.
    Could have been worse. Jesus was an ascetic and in fairly good shape so he survived longer on the cross than usual. A kind-hearted Roman soldier administered the coup de grace but missed his vital organs. Jesus was still alive when they took him to Gethsemane and sealed the tomb. Luckily, for Jesus, tomb robbers turned up on Saturday (when the locals were otherwise engaged) and had the freight of their lives when they rolled away the boulder and were met with a cheery 'Shalom' from a bloke in a shroud. They scarpered pdq and Jesus wandered off looking for a bite to eat. When Mary'n'Mary showed up on the Lord's Day they jumped to the obvious, if fallacious, conclusion. The rest, as they say, is History.
    Yep, three options.

    1. He wasn't dead.
    2. Someone or some people removed his body.
    3. He rose from the dead.

    Actually, four options...

    4. The biblical account is a fictionalised
    version of events.

    If someone was offering odds, I think number 3 would be the 1,000,000/1 outsider.
    Then you get to the C S Lewis question.

    If you are right then why were so many of the apostles - who presumably knew the truth - willing to suffer torture and martyrdom for a lie?
    People die for lies all the time, for regimes or groups they must know have done terrible things as just one example. But in any case a simple answer would be that even people very closest to the actual
    historical events, whatever those might have been, may have perceived or
    interpreted the truth very differently, may
    have believed in miraculous explanations.

    If 'why would X do Y if it were not true?' wouldn't all religions be true, since people
    at the start of them must have 'known' and died (or killed) for it?
    Not really buying that.

    Christianity is the only real example (I think) of a subversive movement which was systematically persecuted by the authorities (both Jewish and Roman).

    Judaism was pre-history; Islam was a tribal power play. Don’t know enough about the origins of Hinduism or Buddhism to apply the theory.
    Buddhism was definitely a subversive movement under the Islamic rule of India. Its great universities were wiped out under Muslim intolerance.
  • Options
    WillGWillG Posts: 2,182
    rcs1000 said:

    WillG said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Two-thirds of Britons want ban on smartphones for under-16s

    Survey results hailed as ‘tipping point’ when public recognises devices have ‘transformed childhood’ for the ‘worse’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/24/two-thirds-of-britons-want-ban-on-smartphones-for-under-16s/

    IIRC that's what their grandparents said about rock & roll music?

    And what their great-grandparents said about the motor car?

    And what their great-great-grandparents said about . . .
    Except the motor car and rock & roll didn't cause huge levels of mental health problems among kids.
    I'm old enough to remember when the Daily Mail ran articles about whether Heavy Metal music was leading teenagers to mutilate and sacrifice pets.

    Sure, but that is the Mail making up stuff with anecdotes. We have reams of evidence on the mental health decline associated with smart phones and social media.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,953
    WillG said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Two-thirds of Britons want ban on smartphones for under-16s

    Survey results hailed as ‘tipping point’ when public recognises devices have ‘transformed childhood’ for the ‘worse’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/24/two-thirds-of-britons-want-ban-on-smartphones-for-under-16s/

    IIRC that's what their grandparents said about rock & roll music?

    And what their great-grandparents said about the motor car?

    And what their great-great-grandparents said about . . .
    Except the motor car and rock & roll didn't cause huge levels of mental health problems among kids.
    Lead in petrol for motor cars did cause cognitive damage to kids, so your great-grandparents were right.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,193
    If parents are worried about their kid's use of smartphones they could always set an example by refusing to use them.
    No. Thought not.
  • Options
    WillGWillG Posts: 2,182

    WillG said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Two-thirds of Britons want ban on smartphones for under-16s

    Survey results hailed as ‘tipping point’ when public recognises devices have ‘transformed childhood’ for the ‘worse’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/24/two-thirds-of-britons-want-ban-on-smartphones-for-under-16s/

    IIRC that's what their grandparents said about rock & roll music?

    And what their great-grandparents said about the motor car?

    And what their great-great-grandparents said about . . .
    Except the motor car and rock & roll didn't cause huge levels of mental health problems among kids.
    Lead in petrol for motor cars did cause cognitive damage to kids, so your great-grandparents were right.
    Though I don't think that is what our great grandparents were arguing.

    However it is a good analogy: a useful invention that had horrible side effects until they became properly regulated. That is what needs to be done with social media and smart phones. Right now it is capitalism run wild - companies making every buck they can with every addictive trick in the book and not giving a damn about the negative impact on its users. Regulation is badly needed.
  • Options
    WillGWillG Posts: 2,182
    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve been away so london feels like a foreign city. A really IMPRESSIVE foreign city

    What an odd feeling

    Central London is impressive one of the great cities of the world. I would say only New York City compares.
    London is a magnificent glittering prosperous world city, full of beautiful women. When you go away for six months, you realise this when you return

    Also the Groucho is really hopping. Astonishing. Haven’t seen it this full since pre Covid. And it’s a rainy chilly midweek night. Encouraging

    One american described the uk to me as one great city with a shit country attached. Maybe not too far wrong.
    Britain isn't a shit country, it's just not as beautiful as Italy or France, and sometimes Brits feel diffident thereby, but Italy and France are possibly the most beautiful countries on earth, per square km, so it's a high bar

    Britain is on a par with Germany or Spain as a country to visit (tho significantly more interesting than either)

    London is better than Paris and much better than Rome

    Spain is lovely where the UK has plenty of Sloughs and Stevenages.

    Also, Rome is way better than Paris.
  • Options
    WillGWillG Posts: 2,182

    Brexit thoughts from the obituary of Nobel prizewinning psychologist Daniel Kahneman (founder of behavioural economics, author of Thinking, Fast and Slow which explored and explained cognitive biases).

    From an interview published a fortnight before the Brexit referendum:-

    “The major impression one gets observing the debate is that the reasons for exit are clearly emotional,” he observed. “The arguments look odd: they look short-term and based on irritation and anger.” The risk, he went on, was that the British people would be swept along by emotion and lash out later at scapegoats if the withdrawal proved to be a disastrous strategic error. “They won’t regret it because regret is rare. They’ll find a way to explain what happened and blame somebody. That is the general pattern when things go wrong and people are afraid.”
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/obituaries/2024/03/28/daniel-kahneman-nobel-prize-psychologist-economics-obituary/

    The bias is the other direction. Everyone said it would be economically damaging, but the UK has outgrown the EU in the five years since we fully left.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,193
    WillG said:

    kle4 said:

    Cookie said:

    Anyway. Happy Easter everyone.
    I bloody love Easter. Easter asks absolutely nothing of you. It doesn't give you a list of things to do; doesn't ask you to wear fancy dress, or to feel a certain emotion. Greetings cards companies might see a market for their product, but they're fooling no-one. All Easter does is come along without you really budgeting for it and gives you a lovely long weekend.
    I'm going to have a lie in tomorrow. Christ may be risen, but I'm not planning on following his example until gone 10.

    The rising will be on Sunday. I'm afraid the Friday didn't go that well for him.
    Could have been worse. Jesus was an ascetic and in fairly good shape so he survived longer on the cross than usual. A kind-hearted Roman soldier administered the coup de grace but missed his vital organs. Jesus was still alive when they took him to Gethsemane and sealed the tomb. Luckily, for Jesus, tomb robbers turned up on Saturday (when the locals were otherwise engaged) and had the freight of their lives when they rolled away the boulder and were met with a cheery 'Shalom' from a bloke in a shroud. They scarpered pdq and Jesus wandered off looking for a bite to eat. When Mary'n'Mary showed up on the Lord's Day they jumped to the obvious, if fallacious, conclusion. The rest, as they say, is History.
    Yep, three options.

    1. He wasn't dead.
    2. Someone or some people removed his body.
    3. He rose from the dead.

    Actually, four options...

    4. The biblical account is a fictionalised
    version of events.

    If someone was offering odds, I think number 3 would be the 1,000,000/1 outsider.
    Then you get to the C S Lewis question.

    If you are right then why were so many of the apostles - who presumably knew the truth - willing to suffer torture and martyrdom for a lie?
    People die for lies all the time, for regimes or groups they must know have done terrible things as just one example. But in any case a simple answer would be that even people very closest to the actual
    historical events, whatever those might have been, may have perceived or
    interpreted the truth very differently, may
    have believed in miraculous explanations.

    If 'why would X do Y if it were not true?' wouldn't all religions be true, since people
    at the start of them must have 'known' and died (or killed) for it?
    Not really buying that.

    Christianity is the only real example (I think) of a subversive movement which was systematically persecuted by the authorities (both Jewish and Roman).

    Judaism was pre-history; Islam was a tribal power play. Don’t know enough about the origins of Hinduism or Buddhism to apply the theory.
    Buddhism was definitely a subversive movement under the Islamic rule of India. Its great universities were wiped out under Muslim intolerance.
    But Buddhism had been the established religion in India for 1500 years by then.
    It was the Establishment. Not subversive at all. Focused on monasteries, and increasingly divorced from the populace.
    When Islam ripped through and destroyed the superstructure your average peasant continued to worship in the same way. Which is now called Hinduism. Which is a Buddhist influenced version of the pre-Buddhist folk religions.
  • Options
    WillGWillG Posts: 2,182
    dixiedean said:

    WillG said:

    kle4 said:

    Cookie said:

    Anyway. Happy Easter everyone.
    I bloody love Easter. Easter asks absolutely nothing of you. It doesn't give you a list of things to do; doesn't ask you to wear fancy dress, or to feel a certain emotion. Greetings cards companies might see a market for their product, but they're fooling no-one. All Easter does is come along without you really budgeting for it and gives you a lovely long weekend.
    I'm going to have a lie in tomorrow. Christ may be risen, but I'm not planning on following his example until gone 10.

    The rising will be on Sunday. I'm afraid the Friday didn't go that well for him.
    Could have been worse. Jesus was an ascetic and in fairly good shape so he survived longer on the cross than usual. A kind-hearted Roman soldier administered the coup de grace but missed his vital organs. Jesus was still alive when they took him to Gethsemane and sealed the tomb. Luckily, for Jesus, tomb robbers turned up on Saturday (when the locals were otherwise engaged) and had the freight of their lives when they rolled away the boulder and were met with a cheery 'Shalom' from a bloke in a shroud. They scarpered pdq and Jesus wandered off looking for a bite to eat. When Mary'n'Mary showed up on the Lord's Day they jumped to the obvious, if fallacious, conclusion. The rest, as they say, is History.
    Yep, three options.

    1. He wasn't dead.
    2. Someone or some people removed his body.
    3. He rose from the dead.

    Actually, four options...

    4. The biblical account is a fictionalised
    version of events.

    If someone was offering odds, I think number 3 would be the 1,000,000/1 outsider.
    Then you get to the C S Lewis question.

    If you are right then why were so many of the apostles - who presumably knew the truth - willing to suffer torture and martyrdom for a lie?
    People die for lies all the time, for regimes or groups they must know have done terrible things as just one example. But in any case a simple answer would be that even people very closest to the actual
    historical events, whatever those might have been, may have perceived or
    interpreted the truth very differently, may
    have believed in miraculous explanations.

    If 'why would X do Y if it were not true?' wouldn't all religions be true, since people
    at the start of them must have 'known' and died (or killed) for it?
    Not really buying that.

    Christianity is the only real example (I think) of a subversive movement which was systematically persecuted by the authorities (both Jewish and Roman).

    Judaism was pre-history; Islam was a tribal power play. Don’t know enough about the origins of Hinduism or Buddhism to apply the theory.
    Buddhism was definitely a subversive movement under the Islamic rule of India. Its great universities were wiped out under Muslim intolerance.
    But Buddhism had been the established religion in India for 1500 years by then.
    It was the Establishment. Not subversive at all. Focused on monasteries, and increasingly divorced from the populace.
    When Islam ripped through and destroyed the superstructure your average peasant continued to worship in the same way. Which is now called Hinduism. Which is a Buddhist influenced version of the pre-Buddhist folk religions.
    Buddhism only became the establishment under Ashoka, similar to Christianity under Constantine. Even then, it was not enforced the way Christianity late did. Its first couple centuries it spread organically, under opposition from the priestly establishment. There is a reason it is one of the heterodox schools of Indian philosophy.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 19,109
    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    As Christopher Columbus said: the more you travel the more you know

    I had to leave for 6 months to see London for what it is. Cold rainy sometimes violent - but absolutely astonishing. A peak moment in human civilisation

    What would you say elevates it above other major cities? There are bigger ones, ones which are very diverse and vibrant etc

    Genuine question.
    Sophistication, culture, architecture, history, elegance, vibe, and... a certain... THING

    If you'te in the middle of central London drinking on a rainy Thursday night you are probably quite elite in some way: beauty, money, class, style, youth, talent, knapping skill. You are surrounded by similar people. It feels right and good, you are chosen, this is how the world should be

    A great world city functions like a kind of private members' club. Its innate expense and hassle excludes the boring, the old, the stupid, and the poor

    Yeah manchester is probably our 2nd city but it feels nothing like london at all and round Piccadilly Gardens is pretty sketchy. However compared to shitholes like Bradford its still a veritable metropolis.
    To be a little more serious, Edinburgh is surely the UK's second city. It has political power and cultural prestige that Manchester can only dream of, and it is infinitely more beautiful than Manchester, indeed its more beautiful than London in terms of architectural coherence. Edinburgh has a good claim to be in the top ten most beautiful cities on the planet - London. by contrast, is too varied and weird to ever claim this. London has many moments of intense beauty, and many moments of intense ugliness

    But, fuck me, Edinburgh, you need to knock down the Jobbie Building, and the Holyrood Parliament. They are two of the horriblest things ever made and a good summary of Scotland under the SNP
    New Labour, afiak. Everyone else was in favour of using an older historic building.

    There's a whole book to be written about how Scotland and Edinburgh ended up with the grotesque and ferociously expensive wart that is Holyrood. NO ONE LIKES IT. Look on Trip Advisor. It is universally despised, tourists hate it and locals hate it, worldwide opinion polls consistently rate it as one of the most fugly buildings on earth, beating out modernist horrors like Boston City Hall, Monparnasse Tower and the Hoover building in DC (and I have seen all three, and if you are uglier than those: wow)

    How do terrifyingly hideous yet fantastically expensive buildings get made? There seems to be a point where so much money is invested - and so much emotion and time - no one is willing to stand up and say Wait, this is shit. Huge movies that turn out to be turkeys are similar, as are prestige railways - like HS2

    So the horrific expense of Holyrood - ten times over budget - is actually one of the reasons it was completed, and why it now blights one of the most beautiful cities on earth, seemingly forever. Sunk Cost
    Tripadvisor is opinion of tourists mainly; I'd say they are not a very important group.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,193
    WillG said:

    dixiedean said:

    WillG said:

    kle4 said:

    Cookie said:

    Anyway. Happy Easter everyone.
    I bloody love Easter. Easter asks absolutely nothing of you. It doesn't give you a list of things to do; doesn't ask you to wear fancy dress, or to feel a certain emotion. Greetings cards companies might see a market for their product, but they're fooling no-one. All Easter does is come along without you really budgeting for it and gives you a lovely long weekend.
    I'm going to have a lie in tomorrow. Christ may be risen, but I'm not planning on following his example until gone 10.

    The rising will be on Sunday. I'm afraid the Friday didn't go that well for him.
    Could have been worse. Jesus was an ascetic and in fairly good shape so he survived longer on the cross than usual. A kind-hearted Roman soldier administered the coup de grace but missed his vital organs. Jesus was still alive when they took him to Gethsemane and sealed the tomb. Luckily, for Jesus, tomb robbers turned up on Saturday (when the locals were otherwise engaged) and had the freight of their lives when they rolled away the boulder and were met with a cheery 'Shalom' from a bloke in a shroud. They scarpered pdq and Jesus wandered off looking for a bite to eat. When Mary'n'Mary showed up on the Lord's Day they jumped to the obvious, if fallacious, conclusion. The rest, as they say, is History.
    Yep, three options.

    1. He wasn't dead.
    2. Someone or some people removed his body.
    3. He rose from the dead.

    Actually, four options...

    4. The biblical account is a fictionalised
    version of events.

    If someone was offering odds, I think number 3 would be the 1,000,000/1 outsider.
    Then you get to the C S Lewis question.

    If you are right then why were so many of the apostles - who presumably knew the truth - willing to suffer torture and martyrdom for a lie?
    People die for lies all the time, for regimes or groups they must know have done terrible things as just one example. But in any case a simple answer would be that even people very closest to the actual
    historical events, whatever those might have been, may have perceived or
    interpreted the truth very differently, may
    have believed in miraculous explanations.

    If 'why would X do Y if it were not true?' wouldn't all religions be true, since people
    at the start of them must have 'known' and died (or killed) for it?
    Not really buying that.

    Christianity is the only real example (I think) of a subversive movement which was systematically persecuted by the authorities (both Jewish and Roman).

    Judaism was pre-history; Islam was a tribal power play. Don’t know enough about the origins of Hinduism or Buddhism to apply the theory.
    Buddhism was definitely a subversive movement under the Islamic rule of India. Its great universities were wiped out under Muslim intolerance.
    But Buddhism had been the established religion in India for 1500 years by then.
    It was the Establishment. Not subversive at all. Focused on monasteries, and increasingly divorced from the populace.
    When Islam ripped through and destroyed the superstructure your average peasant continued to worship in the same way. Which is now called Hinduism. Which is a Buddhist influenced version of the pre-Buddhist folk religions.
    Buddhism only became the establishment under Ashoka, similar to Christianity under Constantine. Even then, it was not enforced the way Christianity late did. Its first couple centuries it spread organically, under opposition from the priestly establishment. There is a reason it is one of the heterodox schools of Indian philosophy.
    Yes.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 19,109
    edited March 29
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    As Christopher Columbus said: the more you travel the more you know

    I had to leave for 6 months to see London for what it is. Cold rainy sometimes violent - but absolutely astonishing. A peak moment in human civilisation

    What would you say elevates it above other major cities? There are bigger ones, ones which are very diverse and vibrant etc

    Genuine question.
    Sophistication, culture, architecture, history, elegance, vibe, and... a certain... THING

    If you'te in the middle of central London drinking on a rainy Thursday night you are probably quite elite in some way: beauty, money, class, style, youth, talent, knapping skill. You are surrounded by similar people. It feels right and good, you are chosen, this is how the world should be

    A great world city functions like a kind of private members' club. Its innate expense and hassle excludes the boring, the old, the stupid, and the poor

    Yeah manchester is probably our 2nd city but it feels nothing like london at all and round Piccadilly Gardens is pretty sketchy. However compared to shitholes like Bradford its still a veritable metropolis.
    To be a little more serious, Edinburgh is surely the UK's second city. It has political power and cultural prestige that Manchester can only dream of, and it is infinitely more beautiful than Manchester, indeed its more beautiful than London in terms of architectural coherence. Edinburgh has a good claim to be in the top ten most beautiful cities on the planet - London. by contrast, is too varied and weird to ever claim this. London has many moments of intense beauty, and many moments of intense ugliness

    But, fuck me, Edinburgh, you need to knock down the Jobbie Building, and the Holyrood Parliament. They are two of the horriblest things ever made and a good summary of Scotland under the SNP
    Holyrood was erected under a Labour-led national and Scottish administration, to be fair.
    Indeed, a bit of trolling there

    But they are fucking hideous, tho. I'm not trolling there. Holyrood is a disgusting pile of absurdly expensive dreck, probably the ugliest parliament building on earth, with some tough competition from New Zealand; and the Jobbie Building manages to be even WORSE, through the brisk expedient of closely and carefully resembling a turd
    Ye Gods they built it.

    It's a pity there isn't a local worthy called Hanky to name it after.

    Why is there no photograph of a man in a kilt squatting in the foreground in silhouette in the appropriate position?

    Designed by a London architect for Edinburgh!

  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,088
    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve been away so london feels like a foreign city. A really IMPRESSIVE foreign city

    What an odd feeling

    Central London is impressive one of the great cities of the world. I would say only New York City compares.
    London is a magnificent glittering prosperous world city, full of beautiful women. When you go away for six months, you realise this when you return

    Also the Groucho is really hopping. Astonishing. Haven’t seen it this full since pre Covid. And it’s a rainy chilly midweek night. Encouraging

    One american described the uk to me as one great city with a shit country attached. Maybe not too far wrong.
    Britain isn't a shit country, it's just not as beautiful as Italy or France, and sometimes Brits feel diffident thereby, but Italy and France are possibly the most beautiful countries on earth, per square km, so it's a high bar

    Britain is on a par with Germany or Spain as a country to visit (tho significantly more interesting than either)

    London is better than Paris and much better than Rome

    Spain is lovely where the UK has plenty of Sloughs and Stevenages.

    Also, Rome is way better than Paris.
    Spain is full of truly hideous towns and burbs in the dry arid interior. Its also very boring away from the coast, in many places

    Rome is an exquisite and extraordinary jewel of
    history, but it is not a world city like London, Paris or NYC
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,088
    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    As Christopher Columbus said: the more you travel the more you know

    I had to leave for 6 months to see London for what it is. Cold rainy sometimes violent - but absolutely astonishing. A peak moment in human civilisation

    What would you say elevates it above other major cities? There are bigger ones, ones which are very diverse and vibrant etc

    Genuine question.
    Sophistication, culture, architecture, history, elegance, vibe, and... a certain... THING

    If you'te in the middle of central London drinking on a rainy Thursday night you are probably quite elite in some way: beauty, money, class, style, youth, talent, knapping skill. You are surrounded by similar people. It feels right and good, you are chosen, this is how the world should be

    A great world city functions like a kind of private members' club. Its innate expense and hassle excludes the boring, the old, the stupid, and the poor

    Yeah manchester is probably our 2nd city but it feels nothing like london at all and round Piccadilly Gardens is pretty sketchy. However compared to shitholes like Bradford its still a veritable metropolis.
    To be a little more serious, Edinburgh is surely the UK's second city. It has political power and cultural prestige that Manchester can only dream of, and it is infinitely more beautiful than Manchester, indeed its more beautiful than London in terms of architectural coherence. Edinburgh has a good claim to be in the top ten most beautiful cities on the planet - London. by contrast, is too varied and weird to ever claim this. London has many moments of intense beauty, and many moments of intense ugliness

    But, fuck me, Edinburgh, you need to knock down the Jobbie Building, and the Holyrood Parliament. They are two of the horriblest things ever made and a good summary of Scotland under the SNP
    New Labour, afiak. Everyone else was in favour of using an older historic building.

    There's a whole book to be written about how Scotland and Edinburgh ended up with the grotesque and ferociously expensive wart that is Holyrood. NO ONE LIKES IT. Look on Trip Advisor. It is universally despised, tourists hate it and locals hate it, worldwide opinion polls consistently rate it as one of the most fugly buildings on earth, beating out modernist horrors like Boston City Hall, Monparnasse Tower and the Hoover building in DC (and I have seen all three, and if you are uglier than those: wow)

    How do terrifyingly hideous yet fantastically expensive buildings get made? There seems to be a point where so much money is invested - and so much emotion and time - no one is willing to stand up and say Wait, this is shit. Huge movies that turn out to be turkeys are similar, as are prestige railways - like HS2

    So the horrific expense of Holyrood - ten times over budget - is actually one of the reasons it was completed, and why it now blights one of the most beautiful cities on earth, seemingly forever. Sunk Cost
    Tripadvisor is opinion of tourists mainly; I'd say they are not a very important group.
    Look at it

    It’s a rusted, fucked up, post depression po-mo shopping centre with probable cladding issues, that somehow cost £400 MILLION


  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,088
    Why is Holyrood covered with clumsy cutout pistol shape thingies? What’s the point? Who benefits?

    My god, what a disaster
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 6,268
    MattW said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    As Christopher Columbus said: the more you travel the more you know

    I had to leave for 6 months to see London for what it is. Cold rainy sometimes violent - but absolutely astonishing. A peak moment in human civilisation

    What would you say elevates it above other major cities? There are bigger ones, ones which are very diverse and vibrant etc

    Genuine question.
    Sophistication, culture, architecture, history, elegance, vibe, and... a certain... THING

    If you'te in the middle of central London drinking on a rainy Thursday night you are probably quite elite in some way: beauty, money, class, style, youth, talent, knapping skill. You are surrounded by similar people. It feels right and good, you are chosen, this is how the world should be

    A great world city functions like a kind of private members' club. Its innate expense and hassle excludes the boring, the old, the stupid, and the poor

    Yeah manchester is probably our 2nd city but it feels nothing like london at all and round Piccadilly Gardens is pretty sketchy. However compared to shitholes like Bradford its still a veritable metropolis.
    To be a little more serious, Edinburgh is surely the UK's second city. It has political power and cultural prestige that Manchester can only dream of, and it is infinitely more beautiful than Manchester, indeed its more beautiful than London in terms of architectural coherence. Edinburgh has a good claim to be in the top ten most beautiful cities on the planet - London. by contrast, is too varied and weird to ever claim this. London has many moments of intense beauty, and many moments of intense ugliness

    But, fuck me, Edinburgh, you need to knock down the Jobbie Building, and the Holyrood Parliament. They are two of the horriblest things ever made and a good summary of Scotland under the SNP
    New Labour, afiak. Everyone else was in favour of using an older historic building.

    Yes. Nulab cockup. Not SNP.

    Is it the most proportionally over budget building in recent UK history? It's what slebrity architects with overblown imaginations do, when the client is a bit too lobotomised.

    It has one of the horrible sets of cycle stands in the world - cycle stands as artwork which makes them UTTERLY useless as cycle stands.

    Even this year I got some gyp from a travelling photographer thinking that form mattered wrt function on cycle parking, whilst it is absolutely dependent on function in place first, because I pointed that out on his fairly old photo.

    Let him park his car in a space with a cross gradient of 45 degrees, and see what he says then.
    Yes, but if you line them up properly they make the shape of a bicycle! How cool is that! It's not like cycling is a thing working adults do, just a plaything for children, right?!

    A lot of cycling infrastructure mishaps happen because it's offloaded to people more interested in style. Alternatively, to road builders who have zero interest in anything other than motorcars.

    Cyclists want to go from A to B on a smooth surface (not hand laid, FFS), direct to destination, protected from vehicle traffic. They want to lock their bike up to something that won't be crushed by a reversing vehicle, is easy to get a lock around, and cannot be dismantled at the base.
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 6,268
    edited March 29
    Leon said:

    Why is Holyrood covered with clumsy cutout pistol shape thingies? What’s the point? Who benefits?

    My god, what a disaster

    What do you make of the City of London? There was a time when the skyscrapers were coherent, and things like the Gherkin were part of a kind broader pyramid type shape that tapered gracefully up to the higher buildings in the middle.

    What happened?! Did it fall apart with the walkie talkie?
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 6,268
    edited March 29
    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    As Christopher Columbus said: the more you travel the more you know

    I had to leave for 6 months to see London for what it is. Cold rainy sometimes violent - but absolutely astonishing. A peak moment in human civilisation

    What would you say elevates it above other major cities? There are bigger ones, ones which are very diverse and vibrant etc

    Genuine question.
    Sophistication, culture, architecture, history, elegance, vibe, and... a certain... THING

    If you'te in the middle of central London drinking on a rainy Thursday night you are probably quite elite in some way: beauty, money, class, style, youth, talent, knapping skill. You are surrounded by similar people. It feels right and good, you are chosen, this is how the world should be

    A great world city functions like a kind of private members' club. Its innate expense and hassle excludes the boring, the old, the stupid, and the poor

    Yeah manchester is probably our 2nd city but it feels nothing like london at all and round Piccadilly Gardens is pretty sketchy. However compared to shitholes like Bradford its still a veritable metropolis.
    To be a little more serious, Edinburgh is surely the UK's second city. It has political power and cultural prestige that Manchester can only dream of, and it is infinitely more beautiful than Manchester, indeed its more beautiful than London in terms of architectural coherence. Edinburgh has a good claim to be in the top ten most beautiful cities on the planet - London. by contrast, is too varied and weird to ever claim this. London has many moments of intense beauty, and many moments of intense ugliness

    But, fuck me, Edinburgh, you need to knock down the Jobbie Building, and the Holyrood Parliament. They are two of the horriblest things ever made and a good summary of Scotland under the SNP
    Holyrood was erected under a Labour-led national and Scottish administration, to be fair.
    Indeed, a bit of trolling there

    But they are fucking hideous, tho. I'm not trolling there. Holyrood is a disgusting pile of absurdly expensive dreck, probably the ugliest parliament building on earth, with some tough competition from New Zealand; and the Jobbie Building manages to be even WORSE, through the brisk expedient of closely and carefully resembling a turd
    Ye Gods they built it.

    It's a pity there isn't a local worthy called Hanky to name it after.

    Why is there no photograph of a man in a kilt squatting in the foreground in silhouette in the appropriate position?

    Designed by a London architect for Edinburgh!

    Cut the swirl off and replace with rooftop bar. Then it looks OK. Kinda like the Beehive in NZ.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,402
    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve been away so london feels like a foreign city. A really IMPRESSIVE foreign city

    What an odd feeling

    Central London is impressive one of the great cities of the world. I would say only New York City compares.
    London is a magnificent glittering prosperous world city, full of beautiful women. When you go away for six months, you realise this when you return

    Also the Groucho is really hopping. Astonishing. Haven’t seen it this full since pre Covid. And it’s a rainy chilly midweek night. Encouraging

    One american described the uk to me as one great city with a shit country attached. Maybe not too far wrong.
    Britain isn't a shit country, it's just not as beautiful as Italy or France, and sometimes Brits feel diffident thereby, but Italy and France are possibly the most beautiful countries on earth, per square km, so it's a high bar

    Britain is on a par with Germany or Spain as a country to visit (tho significantly more interesting than either)

    London is better than Paris and much better than Rome

    Spain is lovely where the UK has plenty of Sloughs and Stevenages.

    Also, Rome is way better than Paris.
    Spain is full of truly hideous towns and burbs in the dry arid interior. Its also very boring away from the coast, in many places

    Rome is an exquisite and extraordinary jewel of
    history, but it is not a world city like London, Paris or NYC
    Paris is not a world city.

    It might have been in the past, but the reality is that - now the UK has left - there are no world cities left in the EU. Paris, like Rome, is becoming a provincial backwater.

  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,088
    edited March 29
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Why is Holyrood covered with clumsy cutout pistol shape thingies? What’s the point? Who benefits?

    My god, what a disaster

    What do you make of the City of London? There was a time when the skyscrapers were coherent, and things like the Gherkin were part of a kind broader pyramid type shape that tapered gracefully up to the higher buildings in the middle.

    What happened?! Did it fall apart with the walkie talkie?
    The City skyline is bad. They’ve hidden the most beautiful - the gherkin. And the ugliest is the most
    prominent - the Walkie Talkie

    However London is so huge and multifaceted - from Richmond to Dagenham - it can easily endure this. New towers go up: it changes again. I expect the Walkie Talkie to be surrounded and diluted in time - probably quite soon

    Edinburgh is more problematic BECAUSE it is much smaller - more delicate and precious. Nearer to Venice

    It’s a wonderful city aesthetically but a couple more shite buildings and one of the great skylines is ruined for good
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,088
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve been away so london feels like a foreign city. A really IMPRESSIVE foreign city

    What an odd feeling

    Central London is impressive one of the great cities of the world. I would say only New York City compares.
    London is a magnificent glittering prosperous world city, full of beautiful women. When you go away for six months, you realise this when you return

    Also the Groucho is really hopping. Astonishing. Haven’t seen it this full since pre Covid. And it’s a rainy chilly midweek night. Encouraging

    One american described the uk to me as one great city with a shit country attached. Maybe not too far wrong.
    Britain isn't a shit country, it's just not as beautiful as Italy or France, and sometimes Brits feel diffident thereby, but Italy and France are possibly the most beautiful countries on earth, per square km, so it's a high bar

    Britain is on a par with Germany or Spain as a country to visit (tho significantly more interesting than either)

    London is better than Paris and much better than Rome

    Spain is lovely where the UK has plenty of Sloughs and Stevenages.

    Also, Rome is way better than Paris.
    Spain is full of truly hideous towns and burbs in the dry arid interior. Its also very boring away from the coast, in many places

    Rome is an exquisite and extraordinary jewel of
    history, but it is not a world city like London, Paris or NYC
    Paris is not a world city.

    It might have been in the past, but the reality is that - now the UK has left - there are no world cities left in the EU. Paris, like Rome, is becoming a provincial backwater.

    I haven’t visited Paris since pre covid. I’m due in a month and it will be v interesting to check the oil. I do get the sense the EU is fading in importance quite quickly

    The loss of the UK was a massive blow to both sides. Both sides should have tried better to prevent it
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,545
    "Colombia expels Argentine diplomats after Milei calls Petro ‘terrorist murderer’ in CNN interview"

    https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/28/americas/colombia-expels-argentine-diplomats-milei-cnn-interview-intl/index.html
  • Options
    sarissasarissa Posts: 1,814
    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    As Christopher Columbus said: the more you travel the more you know

    I had to leave for 6 months to see London for what it is. Cold rainy sometimes violent - but absolutely astonishing. A peak moment in human civilisation

    What would you say elevates it above other major cities? There are bigger ones, ones which are very diverse and vibrant etc

    Genuine question.
    Sophistication, culture, architecture, history, elegance, vibe, and... a certain... THING

    If you'te in the middle of central London drinking on a rainy Thursday night you are probably quite elite in some way: beauty, money, class, style, youth, talent, knapping skill. You are surrounded by similar people. It feels right and good, you are chosen, this is how the world should be

    A great world city functions like a kind of private members' club. Its innate expense and hassle excludes the boring, the old, the stupid, and the poor

    Yeah manchester is probably our 2nd city but it feels nothing like london at all and round Piccadilly Gardens is pretty sketchy. However compared to shitholes like Bradford its still a veritable metropolis.
    To be a little more serious, Edinburgh is surely the UK's second city. It has political power and cultural prestige that Manchester can only dream of, and it is infinitely more beautiful than Manchester, indeed its more beautiful than London in terms of architectural coherence. Edinburgh has a good claim to be in the top ten most beautiful cities on the planet - London. by contrast, is too varied and weird to ever claim this. London has many moments of intense beauty, and many moments of intense ugliness

    But, fuck me, Edinburgh, you need to knock down the Jobbie Building, and the Holyrood Parliament. They are two of the horriblest things ever made and a good summary of Scotland under the SNP
    New Labour, afiak. Everyone else was in favour of using an older historic building.

    Far too small a site for the eventual needs of the parliament community, for that’s what Holyrood is - a fusion of form and function, integrated into and representing the roots of a nation physically and culturally.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 19,109
    Straw in the Wind?

    $25m Biden fundraiser at Radio City Hall in NY. In one occasion.

    Trump raised $20m in February.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/28/biden-fundraiser-new-york-obama-clinton
  • Options
    sarissasarissa Posts: 1,814
    Leon said:

    Well done, Scotland


    "Scottish Parliament: Edinburgh building named 'world's ugliest'"

    "The Scottish Parliament has been crowned the world’s ugliest and most despised building in a new poll."

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23286379.scottish-parliament-edinburgh-building-named-worlds-ugliest/

    I for one massively prefer it to that crumbling wedding cake that only appeals to sclerotic old gammons and is outdone in every respect by its equivalent in Budapest.
  • Options
    sarissasarissa Posts: 1,814
    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    As Christopher Columbus said: the more you travel the more you know

    I had to leave for 6 months to see London for what it is. Cold rainy sometimes violent - but absolutely astonishing. A peak moment in human civilisation

    What would you say elevates it above other major cities? There are bigger ones, ones which are very diverse and vibrant etc

    Genuine question.
    Sophistication, culture, architecture, history, elegance, vibe, and... a certain... THING

    If you'te in the middle of central London drinking on a rainy Thursday night you are probably quite elite in some way: beauty, money, class, style, youth, talent, knapping skill. You are surrounded by similar people. It feels right and good, you are chosen, this is how the world should be

    A great world city functions like a kind of private members' club. Its innate expense and hassle excludes the boring, the old, the stupid, and the poor

    Yeah manchester is probably our 2nd city but it feels nothing like london at all and round Piccadilly Gardens is pretty sketchy. However compared to shitholes like Bradford its still a veritable metropolis.
    To be a little more serious, Edinburgh is surely the UK's second city. It has political power and cultural prestige that Manchester can only dream of, and it is infinitely more beautiful than Manchester, indeed its more beautiful than London in terms of architectural coherence. Edinburgh has a good claim to be in the top ten most beautiful cities on the planet - London. by contrast, is too varied and weird to ever claim this. London has many moments of intense beauty, and many moments of intense ugliness

    But, fuck me, Edinburgh, you need to knock down the Jobbie Building, and the Holyrood Parliament. They are two of the horriblest things ever made and a good summary of Scotland under the SNP
    New Labour, afiak. Everyone else was in favour of using an older historic building.

    There's a whole book to be written about how Scotland and Edinburgh ended up with the grotesque and ferociously expensive wart that is Holyrood. NO ONE LIKES IT. Look on Trip Advisor. It is universally despised, tourists hate it and locals hate it, worldwide opinion polls consistently rate it as one of the most fugly buildings on earth, beating out modernist horrors like Boston City Hall, Monparnasse Tower and the Hoover building in DC (and I have seen all three, and if you are uglier than those: wow)

    How do terrifyingly hideous yet fantastically expensive buildings get made? There seems to be a point where so much money is invested - and so much emotion and time - no one is willing to stand up and say Wait, this is shit. Huge movies that turn out to be turkeys are similar, as are prestige railways - like HS2

    So the horrific expense of Holyrood - ten times over budget - is actually one of the reasons it was completed, and why it now blights one of the most beautiful cities on earth, seemingly forever. Sunk Cost



    Your annual reminder that the original building tender cost was £110 million rising eventually to 250 million, not least due to bomb proofing after 9/11 and an unforeseen 40% increase in capacity. The other £160 million of loss and expense claims was a consequence of the chaotic management by non-expert politicians.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,177

    kle4 said:

    On political stories like Rayner's it's always worth trying to reverse the sides and see if they would defend their own conduct or not, as I believe some have attemped to put to her. They usually wouldn't, which is not definitive that the conduct is actually poor, but I think does mean you have to accept opponents making something of it to some degree, even if it is not typically as big a deal as they will state.

    The Rayner-equivalent story on the Tory side is Esther McVey living in one flat at the taxpayer's expense while renting out another she, or her husband, owns, that is just as close to Parliament. Rishi has today given a knighthood to McVey's husband, Philip Davies MP.

    Esther McVey claims thousands for London rent despite MP husband owning flat one mile away
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/esther-mcvey-claims-thousands-for-london-rent-despite-mp-husband-owning-flat-one-mile-away/ar-
    BB1keZ5V
    Not necessarily (I don’t know the McVey case)

    If Rayner made a false declaration for tax purposes then she has broken the law. It’s a minor offence but she should fess up and pay the 1.5k

    If McVey owned an investment property that was previously rented out then why should she give up that income to serve in Parliament? If, however, she moved out of the family property in order to rent it out at the same time as claiming another flat on expenses then, while it may be legal/compliant it is not a good look for a politician
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,177
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Cookie said:

    Anyway. Happy Easter everyone.
    I bloody love Easter. Easter asks absolutely nothing of you. It doesn't give you a list of things to do; doesn't ask you to wear fancy dress, or to feel a certain emotion. Greetings cards companies might see a market for their product, but they're fooling no-one. All Easter does is come along without you really budgeting for it and gives you a lovely long weekend.
    I'm going to have a lie in tomorrow. Christ may be risen, but I'm not planning on following his example until gone 10.

    The rising will be on Sunday. I'm afraid the Friday didn't go that well for him.
    Could have been worse. Jesus was an ascetic and in fairly good shape so he survived longer on the cross than usual. A kind-hearted Roman soldier administered the coup de grace but missed his vital organs. Jesus was still alive when they took him to Gethsemane and sealed the tomb. Luckily, for Jesus, tomb robbers turned up on Saturday (when the locals were otherwise engaged) and had the freight of their lives when they rolled away the boulder and were met with a cheery 'Shalom' from a bloke in a shroud. They scarpered pdq and Jesus wandered off looking for a bite to eat. When Mary'n'Mary showed up on the Lord's Day they jumped to the obvious, if fallacious, conclusion. The rest, as they say, is History.
    Yep, three options.

    1. He wasn't dead.
    2. Someone or some people removed his body.
    3. He rose from the dead.

    Actually, four options...

    4. The biblical account is a fictionalised
    version of events.

    If someone was offering odds, I think number 3 would be the 1,000,000/1 outsider.
    Then you get to the C S Lewis question.

    If you are right then why were so many of the apostles - who presumably knew the truth - willing to suffer torture and martyrdom for a lie?
    People die for lies all the time, for regimes or groups they must know have done terrible things as just one example. But in any case a simple answer would be that even people very closest to the actual
    historical events, whatever those might have been, may have perceived or
    interpreted the truth very differently, may
    have believed in miraculous explanations.

    If 'why would X do Y if it were not true?' wouldn't all religions be true, since people
    at the start of them must have 'known' and died (or killed) for it?
    Not really buying that.

    Christianity is the only real example (I think) of a subversive movement which was systematically persecuted by the authorities (both Jewish and Roman).

    Judaism was pre-history; Islam was a tribal power play. Don’t know enough about the
    origins of Hinduism or Buddhism to apply the theory.
    Scientology?

    (Ducks)
    Scientology is just a scam that makes money for the leadership. Its closest parallel is Reform.

    It’s easy to forget - looking at the Catholic and Anglican churches - that early Christianity was the religion of the poor and dispossessed.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,177
    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    As Christopher Columbus said: the more you travel the more you know

    I had to leave for 6 months to see London for what it is. Cold rainy sometimes violent - but absolutely astonishing. A peak moment in human civilisation

    What would you say elevates it above other major cities? There are bigger ones, ones which are very diverse and vibrant etc

    Genuine question.
    Sophistication, culture, architecture, history, elegance, vibe, and... a certain... THING

    If you'te in the middle of central London drinking on a rainy Thursday night you are probably quite elite in some way: beauty, money, class, style, youth, talent, knapping skill. You are surrounded by similar people. It feels right and good, you are chosen, this is how the world should be

    A great world city functions like a kind of private members' club. Its innate expense and hassle excludes the boring, the old, the stupid, and the poor

    Yeah manchester is probably our 2nd city but it feels nothing like london at all and round Piccadilly Gardens is pretty sketchy. However compared to shitholes like Bradford its still a veritable metropolis.
    To be a little more serious, Edinburgh is surely the UK's second city. It has political power and cultural prestige that Manchester can only dream of, and it is infinitely more beautiful than Manchester, indeed its more beautiful than London in terms of architectural coherence. Edinburgh has a good claim to be in the top ten most beautiful cities on the planet - London. by contrast, is too varied and weird to ever claim this. London has many moments of intense beauty, and many moments of intense ugliness

    But, fuck me, Edinburgh, you need to knock down the Jobbie Building, and the Holyrood Parliament. They are two of the horriblest things ever made and a good summary of Scotland under the SNP
    New Labour, afiak. Everyone else was in favour of using an older historic building.

    There's a whole book to be written about how Scotland and Edinburgh ended up with the grotesque and ferociously expensive wart that is Holyrood. NO ONE LIKES IT. Look on Trip Advisor. It is universally despised, tourists hate it and locals hate it, worldwide opinion polls consistently rate it as one of the most fugly buildings on earth, beating out modernist horrors like Boston City Hall, Monparnasse Tower and the Hoover building in DC (and I have seen all three, and if you are uglier than those: wow)

    How do terrifyingly hideous yet fantastically expensive buildings get made? There seems to be a point where so much money is invested - and so much emotion and time - no one is willing to stand up and say Wait, this is shit. Huge movies that turn out to be turkeys are similar, as are prestige railways - like HS2

    So the horrific expense of Holyrood - ten times over budget - is actually one of the reasons it was completed, and why it now blights one of the most beautiful cities on earth, seemingly forever. Sunk Cost
    Tripadvisor is opinion of tourists mainly; I'd say they are not a very important group.
    Look at it

    It’s a rusted, fucked up, post depression po-
    mo shopping centre with probable cladding
    issues, that somehow cost £400 MILLION




    The issue is that there is no flow to the building that attracts the eye. It’s as if someone vomited out a pile of bricks

  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,953

    kle4 said:

    On political stories like Rayner's it's always worth trying to reverse the sides and see if they would defend their own conduct or not, as I believe some have attemped to put to her. They usually wouldn't, which is not definitive that the conduct is actually poor, but I think does mean you have to accept opponents making something of it to some degree, even if it is not typically as big a deal as they will state.

    The Rayner-equivalent story on the Tory side is Esther McVey living in one flat at the taxpayer's expense while renting out another she, or her husband, owns, that is just as close to Parliament. Rishi has today given a knighthood to McVey's husband, Philip Davies MP.

    Esther McVey claims thousands for London rent despite MP husband owning flat one mile away
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/esther-mcvey-claims-thousands-for-london-rent-despite-mp-husband-owning-flat-one-mile-away/ar-
    BB1keZ5V
    Not necessarily (I don’t know the McVey case)

    If Rayner made a false declaration for tax purposes then she has broken the law. It’s a minor offence but she should fess up and pay the 1.5k

    If McVey owned an investment property that was previously rented out then why should she give up that income to serve in Parliament? If, however, she moved out of the family property in order to rent it out at the same time as claiming another flat on expenses then, while it may be legal/compliant it is not a good look for a politician
    And yet Rishi has just knighted Philip Davies, yesterday! I wonder if Number 10 missed that he is McVey's other half.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 56,176
    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    One thing that's annoying me this week: people referring to this week as "the long bank holiday weekend".

    No, it isn't: t's the Easter bank holiday weekend.

    It's remarkable that they are almost always the same people who are first out the gates on LGBT+ history month or to applaud the celebration of Ramadan.

    Can't say I've come across people being shy about calling it Easter myself. Is this something concerted or just some general trend?
    Nor me. I think people refer to the long bank holiday weekend because that’s what it means to a lot of us. An extended and welcome 4 days off and the start of our UK string of spring bank holidays that culminate at Whitsun. Time to head to IKEA/B&Q/Garden centre, have a nice leg of lamb on Easter Day and if you’re young enough do a 2 day clubbing marathon.

    I like the Christian bits of Easter too, not because I’m religious (I’m not) but because the biblical texts and the music that accompanies them are pretty epic: cornerstones of our literary universe. Tonight and Good Friday in particular:

    The last supper; Judas kiss; the garden of gethsemane; Pilate washing his hands; let his blood be upon us; Centurions playing dice; crown of thorns; Eloi Eloi lama sabactani; gave up the ghost; the earth rent in twain etc etc. It’s probably the only story in “Western” literature as influential on English language and idiom as Shakespeare.
    Yes, that's all fine, so call it the Easter weekend.

    My objection was to one or two Woke people at work deliberately omitting the word Easter because of equity and diversity bollocks.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 56,176
    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    As Christopher Columbus said: the more you travel the more you know

    I had to leave for 6 months to see London for what it is. Cold rainy sometimes violent - but absolutely astonishing. A peak moment in human civilisation

    What would you say elevates it above other major cities? There are bigger ones, ones which are very diverse and vibrant etc

    Genuine question.
    Sophistication, culture, architecture, history, elegance, vibe, and... a certain... THING

    If you'te in the middle of central London drinking on a rainy Thursday night you are probably quite elite in some way: beauty, money, class, style, youth, talent, knapping skill. You are surrounded by similar people. It feels right and good, you are chosen, this is how the world should be

    A great world city functions like a kind of private members' club. Its innate expense and hassle excludes the boring, the old, the stupid, and the poor

    Yeah manchester is probably our 2nd city but it feels nothing like london at all and round Piccadilly Gardens is pretty sketchy. However compared to shitholes like Bradford its still a veritable metropolis.
    I am hoping to end my days on this earth without ever returning to Manchester, and never visiting Bradford EVER

    *shudders*
    Manchester is pretty cool, actually.

    I went there recently with work and I was impressed by the vibe- and I wasn't expecting to be.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,227

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Cookie said:

    Anyway. Happy Easter everyone.
    I bloody love Easter. Easter asks absolutely nothing of you. It doesn't give you a list of things to do; doesn't ask you to wear fancy dress, or to feel a certain emotion. Greetings cards companies might see a market for their product, but they're fooling no-one. All Easter does is come along without you really budgeting for it and gives you a lovely long weekend.
    I'm going to have a lie in tomorrow. Christ may be risen, but I'm not planning on following his example until gone 10.

    The rising will be on Sunday. I'm afraid the Friday didn't go that well for him.
    Could have been worse. Jesus was an ascetic and in fairly good shape so he survived longer on the cross than usual. A kind-hearted Roman soldier administered the coup de grace but missed his vital organs. Jesus was still alive when they took him to Gethsemane and sealed the tomb. Luckily, for Jesus, tomb robbers turned up on Saturday (when the locals were otherwise engaged) and had the freight of their lives when they rolled away the boulder and were met with a cheery 'Shalom' from a bloke in a shroud. They scarpered pdq and Jesus wandered off looking for a bite to eat. When Mary'n'Mary showed up on the Lord's Day they jumped to the obvious, if fallacious, conclusion. The rest, as they say, is History.
    Yep, three options.

    1. He wasn't dead.
    2. Someone or some people removed his body.
    3. He rose from the dead.

    Actually, four options...

    4. The biblical account is a fictionalised
    version of events.

    If someone was offering odds, I think number 3 would be the 1,000,000/1 outsider.
    Then you get to the C S Lewis question.

    If you are right then why were so many of the apostles - who presumably knew the truth - willing to suffer torture and martyrdom for a lie?
    People die for lies all the time, for regimes or groups they must know have done terrible things as just one example. But in any case a simple answer would be that even people very closest to the actual
    historical events, whatever those might have been, may have perceived or
    interpreted the truth very differently, may
    have believed in miraculous explanations.

    If 'why would X do Y if it were not true?' wouldn't all religions be true, since people
    at the start of them must have 'known' and died (or killed) for it?
    Not really buying that.

    Christianity is the only real example (I think) of a subversive movement which was systematically persecuted by the authorities (both Jewish and Roman).

    Judaism was pre-history; Islam was a tribal power play. Don’t know enough about the
    origins of Hinduism or Buddhism to apply the theory.
    Scientology?

    (Ducks)
    Scientology is just a scam that makes money for the leadership. Its closest parallel is Reform.

    It’s easy to forget - looking at the Catholic and Anglican churches - that early Christianity was the religion of the poor and dispossessed.
    Its closest parallel is Trump.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 56,176
    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve been away so london feels like a foreign city. A really IMPRESSIVE foreign city

    What an odd feeling

    Central London is impressive one of the great cities of the world. I would say only New York City compares.
    London is a magnificent glittering prosperous world city, full of beautiful women. When you go away for six months, you realise this when you return

    Also the Groucho is really hopping. Astonishing. Haven’t seen it this full since pre Covid. And it’s a rainy chilly midweek night. Encouraging

    One american described the uk to me as one great city with a shit country attached. Maybe not too far wrong.
    Quite a lot far wrong.

    The UK has some of the most exquisite areas of outstanding natural beauty and national parks on the planet outside London. Also, charming castles, homes, history and heritage - some of which goes back thousands of years. And most of it is beautifully preserved - for all its faults our planning system is actually rather good at not trashing what we have. It's one reason we're the number one filming destination outside Holywood now.

    Yes, there are some hideous new towns and horrid post industrial tenements and borderline wastelands - as most developed Western countries also have, and the US, Canada and Australia definitely have their equivalents or worse - but you don't go there.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,953

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    One thing that's annoying me this week: people referring to this week as "the long bank holiday weekend".

    No, it isn't: t's the Easter bank holiday weekend.

    It's remarkable that they are almost always the same people who are first out the gates on LGBT+ history month or to applaud the celebration of Ramadan.

    Can't say I've come across people being shy about calling it Easter myself. Is this something concerted or just some general trend?
    Nor me. I think people refer to the long bank holiday weekend because that’s what it means to a lot of us. An extended and welcome 4 days off and the start of our UK string of spring bank holidays that culminate at Whitsun. Time to head to IKEA/B&Q/Garden centre, have a nice leg of lamb on Easter Day and if you’re young enough do a 2 day clubbing marathon.

    I like the Christian bits of Easter too, not because I’m religious (I’m not) but because the biblical texts and the music that accompanies them are pretty epic: cornerstones of our literary universe. Tonight and Good Friday in particular:

    The last supper; Judas kiss; the garden of gethsemane; Pilate washing his hands; let his blood be upon us; Centurions playing dice; crown of thorns; Eloi Eloi lama sabactani; gave up the ghost; the earth rent in twain etc etc. It’s probably the only story in “Western” literature as influential on English language and idiom as Shakespeare.
    Yes, that's all fine, so call it the Easter weekend.

    My objection was to one or two Woke people at work deliberately omitting the word Easter because of equity and diversity bollocks.
    Step back and consider the obvious non-woke reason for calling it a long bank holiday weekend, which is to emphasise how much time you get off work, grouping it with other long bank holiday weekends, all of which are also named individually when you wish to focus on the particular.
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 6,268
    edited March 29

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    One thing that's annoying me this week: people referring to this week as "the long bank holiday weekend".

    No, it isn't: t's the Easter bank holiday weekend.

    It's remarkable that they are almost always the same people who are first out the gates on LGBT+ history month or to applaud the celebration of Ramadan.

    Can't say I've come across people being shy about calling it Easter myself. Is this something concerted or just some general trend?
    Nor me. I think people refer to the long bank holiday weekend because that’s what it means to a lot of us. An extended and welcome 4 days off and the start of our UK string of spring bank holidays that culminate at Whitsun. Time to head to IKEA/B&Q/Garden centre, have a nice leg of lamb on Easter Day and if you’re young enough do a 2 day clubbing marathon.

    I like the Christian bits of Easter too, not because I’m religious (I’m not) but because the biblical texts and the music that accompanies them are pretty epic: cornerstones of our literary universe. Tonight and Good Friday in particular:

    The last supper; Judas kiss; the garden of gethsemane; Pilate washing his hands; let his blood be upon us; Centurions playing dice; crown of thorns; Eloi Eloi lama sabactani; gave up the ghost; the earth rent in twain etc etc. It’s probably the only story in “Western” literature as influential on English language and idiom as Shakespeare.
    Yes, that's all fine, so call it the Easter weekend.

    My objection was to one or two Woke people at work deliberately omitting the word Easter because of equity and diversity bollocks.
    Step back and consider the obvious non-woke reason for calling it a long bank holiday weekend, which is to emphasise how much time you get off work, grouping it with other long bank holiday weekends, all of which are also named individually when you wish to focus on the particular.
    Just leave them to it. This anti-woke stuff does not survive contact with the general public, and if they insist on bringing it up on the doorstep they will deserve all the electoral hammering they get.

    The Conservatives are in a tight doom spin which means that the remaining members, councillors and MPs who are shameless enough to keep campaigning tend to be more and more on the extreme right of the party.

    I think this is now more of an issue than it was for Labour under Corbyn. Consider the latest anti-Khan video. Everyone sensible has left. They desperately need a Ruth Davidson type figure at CCHQ .
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,655
    edited March 29
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    As Christopher Columbus said: the more you travel the more you know

    I had to leave for 6 months to see London for what it is. Cold rainy sometimes violent - but absolutely astonishing. A peak moment in human civilisation

    What would you say elevates it above other major cities? There are bigger ones, ones which are very diverse and vibrant etc

    Genuine question.
    Sophistication, culture, architecture, history, elegance, vibe, and... a certain... THING

    If you'te in the middle of central London drinking on a rainy Thursday night you are probably quite elite in some way: beauty, money, class, style, youth, talent, knapping skill. You are surrounded by similar people. It feels right and good, you are chosen, this is how the world should be

    A great world city functions like a kind of private members' club. Its innate expense and hassle excludes the boring, the old, the stupid, and the poor

    Yeah manchester is probably our 2nd city but it feels nothing like london at all and round Piccadilly Gardens is pretty sketchy. However compared to shitholes like Bradford its still a veritable metropolis.
    To be a little more serious, Edinburgh is surely the UK's second city. It has political power and cultural prestige that Manchester can only dream of, and it is infinitely more beautiful than Manchester, indeed its more beautiful than London in terms of architectural coherence. Edinburgh has a good claim to be in the top ten most beautiful cities on the planet - London. by contrast, is too varied and weird to ever claim this. London has many moments of intense beauty, and many moments of intense ugliness

    But, fuck me, Edinburgh, you need to knock down the Jobbie Building, and the Holyrood Parliament. They are two of the horriblest things ever made and a good summary of Scotland under the SNP
    Holyrood was erected under a Labour-led national and Scottish administration, to be fair.
    Indeed, a bit of trolling there

    But they are fucking hideous, tho. I'm not trolling there. Holyrood is a disgusting pile of absurdly expensive dreck, probably the ugliest parliament building on earth, with some tough competition from New Zealand; and the Jobbie Building manages to be even WORSE, through the brisk expedient of closely and carefully resembling a turd
    To engage or not to engage with the troll (your self-description)?

    You claim that Edinburgh is beautiful because it’s architecturally homogenous and then bemoan two buildings because they aren’t. I love Edinburgh, and I include Holyrood in that which is fascinating and brilliant sitting as it does beneath Arthur’s seat. But for every Edinburgh we also need a Glasgow: a fascinating and vibrant, edgy, city.

    What is important to point out is that whilst it’s fine for you to have your view you are not, of course, making an objective ascetic assessment but a subjective one based on your dislike of heterogeneity.

    The ‘problem’ with homogenous cities is that after a while they can become as monotonous as those grey skies you also lament. Vienna would be an example. At least Paris managed to shake off some of its Haussmann shackles with some strikingly innovative buildings like the Louvre or the Pompidou centre.

    I’m currently in London on a loooooong weekend, enjoying its rich and varied tapestry which, yes, is sometimes shabby. But the one thing you should never be able to say of London is that it’s tedious.

    All cities need to renew themselves. Personally I think new styles add vibrancy, become talking points, and attract alternative and heterogenous peoples and perspectives.

    It wasn’t so long ago that another faux-traditionalist Sir Norman St John-Stevas described the London Eye as a ‘monstrous carbuncle’. If we want to replicate the nonsense of Charles’ Poundbury, fine. But what an impoverished and dystopian world.

    I guess one of the many differences between you and I is that I try to accept the challenge of the ‘other,’ partly because I always want to be open to new ideas and partly because it casts a light into one’s own shadow-side, which is a place where one can learn. Retreating down the rabbit-hole of homogenous myopia is a disaster for oneself and those having to listen to it ...
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,655
    Labour 21% ahead with Savanta I note.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,087
    WillG said:

    viewcode said:

    stodge said:

    Have we mentioned the result of the Senegalese Presidential election a couple of days ago?

    The clear winner was one Bassirou Diomaye Faye, just 44 years old, who easily defeated the candidate of the ruling party by 54-36. He is a left-wing pan-African (apparently) which essentially means he will move Senegal away from France and Europe to a more neutral position which marks another former Francophone country trying to distance itself from Paris.

    Indeed. The death of the French (pseudo) empire in Africa is ignored in the UK TLDR: France has held sway over many countries in Africa for decades by overseeing a currency system. Nations are breaking away and Russia is waging a proxy war there, as part of the Russian and Chinese move to push the West out of Africa.
    Using time and money to buy influence in Africa is as foolish as the Scramble was in the 1800s. Sure, cut trade deals and intervene to stop a genocide if we must. But all the Russian, Chinese and French style stuff just breeds resentment and is counter productive.
    Why would anyone even want the Sahel?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,087
    rcs1000 said:

    WillG said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Two-thirds of Britons want ban on smartphones for under-16s

    Survey results hailed as ‘tipping point’ when public recognises devices have ‘transformed childhood’ for the ‘worse’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/24/two-thirds-of-britons-want-ban-on-smartphones-for-under-16s/

    IIRC that's what their grandparents said about rock & roll music?

    And what their great-grandparents said about the motor car?

    And what their great-great-grandparents said about . . .
    Except the motor car and rock & roll didn't cause huge levels of mental health problems among kids.
    I'm old enough to remember when the Daily Mail ran articles about whether Heavy Metal music was leading teenagers to mutilate and sacrifice pets.

    Does it not?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,087

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve been away so london feels like a foreign city. A really IMPRESSIVE foreign city

    What an odd feeling

    Central London is impressive one of the great cities of the world. I would say only New York City compares.
    London is a magnificent glittering prosperous world city, full of beautiful women. When you go away for six months, you realise this when you return

    Also the Groucho is really hopping. Astonishing. Haven’t seen it this full since pre Covid. And it’s a rainy chilly midweek night. Encouraging

    One american described the uk to me as one great city with a shit country attached. Maybe not too far wrong.
    Quite a lot far wrong.

    The UK has some of the most exquisite areas of outstanding natural beauty and national parks on the planet outside London. Also, charming castles, homes, history and heritage - some of which goes back thousands of years. And most of it is beautifully preserved - for all its faults our planning system is actually rather good at not trashing what we have. It's one reason we're the number one filming destination outside Holywood now.

    Yes, there are some hideous new towns and horrid post industrial tenements and borderline wastelands - as most developed Western countries also have, and the US, Canada and Australia definitely have their equivalents or worse - but you don't go there.
    The sort of Amercians who say that would probably say the same thing about their own country.
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,822
    Eabhal said:

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    One thing that's annoying me this week: people referring to this week as "the long bank holiday weekend".

    No, it isn't: t's the Easter bank holiday weekend.

    It's remarkable that they are almost always the same people who are first out the gates on LGBT+ history month or to applaud the celebration of Ramadan.

    Can't say I've come across people being shy about calling it Easter myself. Is this something concerted or just some general trend?
    Nor me. I think people refer to the long bank holiday weekend because that’s what it means to a lot of us. An extended and welcome 4 days off and the start of our UK string of spring bank holidays that culminate at Whitsun. Time to head to IKEA/B&Q/Garden centre, have a nice leg of lamb on Easter Day and if you’re young enough do a 2 day clubbing marathon.

    I like the Christian bits of Easter too, not because I’m religious (I’m not) but because the biblical texts and the music that accompanies them are pretty epic: cornerstones of our literary universe. Tonight and Good Friday in particular:

    The last supper; Judas kiss; the garden of gethsemane; Pilate washing his hands; let his blood be upon us; Centurions playing dice; crown of thorns; Eloi Eloi lama sabactani; gave up the ghost; the earth rent in twain etc etc. It’s probably the only story in “Western” literature as influential on English language and idiom as Shakespeare.
    Yes, that's all fine, so call it the Easter weekend.

    My objection was to one or two Woke people at work deliberately omitting the word Easter because of equity and diversity bollocks.
    Step back and consider the obvious non-woke reason for calling it a long bank holiday weekend, which is to emphasise how much time you get off work, grouping it with other long bank holiday weekends, all of which are also named individually when you wish to focus on the particular.
    Just leave them to it. This anti-woke stuff does not survive contact with the general public, and if they insist on bringing it up on the doorstep they will deserve all the electoral hammering they get.

    The Conservatives are in a tight doom spin which means that the remaining members, councillors and MPs who are shameless enough to keep campaigning tend to be more and more on the extreme right of the party.

    I think this is now more of an issue than it was for Labour under Corbyn. Consider the latest anti-Khan video. Everyone sensible has left. They desperately need a Ruth Davidson type figure at CCHQ .
    @Casino_Royale is making a valid point but not a new one: progressives are embarrassed by tradition, preferring anything exotic and 'more interesting'; and provocatively renaming traditional religious holidays is a symptom of this. I don't think there are massive political implications but it all gets a bit tiring when their own vision of the future is failing all around them but there is little self reflection or criticism.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,655

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    As Christopher Columbus said: the more you travel the more you know

    I had to leave for 6 months to see London for what it is. Cold rainy sometimes violent - but absolutely astonishing. A peak moment in human civilisation

    What would you say elevates it above other major cities? There are bigger ones, ones which are very diverse and vibrant etc

    Genuine question.
    Sophistication, culture, architecture, history, elegance, vibe, and... a certain... THING

    If you'te in the middle of central London drinking on a rainy Thursday night you are probably quite elite in some way: beauty, money, class, style, youth, talent, knapping skill. You are surrounded by similar people. It feels right and good, you are chosen, this is how the world should be

    A great world city functions like a kind of private members' club. Its innate expense and hassle excludes the boring, the old, the stupid, and the poor

    Yeah manchester is probably our 2nd city but it feels nothing like london at all and round Piccadilly Gardens is pretty sketchy. However compared to shitholes like Bradford its still a veritable metropolis.
    I am hoping to end my days on this earth without ever returning to Manchester, and never visiting Bradford EVER

    *shudders*
    Manchester is pretty cool, actually.

    I went there recently with work and I was impressed by the vibe- and I wasn't expecting to be.
    Indeed. And for the record a few short months ago @Leon was extolling the wonders of Manchester as a place where you could feel the energy of where ‘it’ (the industrial revolution) all began.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,655
    It is possible to have the old and the new.

    Just saying.

    And with that, I bid you all a lovely day and long weekend by whatever name you wish to call it.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 8,256

    Cookie said:

    Anyway. Happy Easter everyone.
    I bloody love Easter. Easter asks absolutely nothing of you. It doesn't give you a list of things to do; doesn't ask you to wear fancy dress, or to feel a certain emotion. Greetings cards companies might see a market for their product, but they're fooling no-one. All Easter does is come along without you really budgeting for it and gives you a lovely long weekend.
    I'm going to have a lie in tomorrow. Christ may be risen, but I'm not planning on following his example until gone 10.

    The rising will be on Sunday. I'm afraid the Friday didn't go that well for him.
    Could have been worse. Jesus was an ascetic and in fairly good shape so he survived longer on the cross than usual. A kind-hearted Roman soldier administered the coup de grace but missed his vital organs. Jesus was still alive when they took him to Gethsemane and sealed the tomb. Luckily, for Jesus, tomb robbers turned up on Saturday (when the locals were otherwise engaged) and had the freight of their lives when they rolled away the boulder and were met with a cheery 'Shalom' from a bloke in a shroud. They scarpered pdq and Jesus wandered off looking for a bite to eat. When Mary'n'Mary showed up on the Lord's Day they jumped to the obvious, if fallacious, conclusion. The rest, as they say, is History.
    Yep, three options.

    1. He wasn't dead.
    2. Someone or some people removed his body.
    3. He rose from the dead.

    Actually, four options...

    4. The biblical account is a fictionalised version of events.

    If someone was offering odds, I think number 3 would be the 1,000,000/1 outsider.
    What’s wrong with: he died on the cross, his body was in the tomb, the apostles hallucinated seeing him.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,423
    darkage said:

    Eabhal said:

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    One thing that's annoying me this week: people referring to this week as "the long bank holiday weekend".

    No, it isn't: t's the Easter bank holiday weekend.

    It's remarkable that they are almost always the same people who are first out the gates on LGBT+ history month or to applaud the celebration of Ramadan.

    Can't say I've come across people being shy about calling it Easter myself. Is this something concerted or just some general trend?
    Nor me. I think people refer to the long bank holiday weekend because that’s what it means to a lot of us. An extended and welcome 4 days off and the start of our UK string of spring bank holidays that culminate at Whitsun. Time to head to IKEA/B&Q/Garden centre, have a nice leg of lamb on Easter Day and if you’re young enough do a 2 day clubbing marathon.

    I like the Christian bits of Easter too, not because I’m religious (I’m not) but because the biblical texts and the music that accompanies them are pretty epic: cornerstones of our literary universe. Tonight and Good Friday in particular:

    The last supper; Judas kiss; the garden of gethsemane; Pilate washing his hands; let his blood be upon us; Centurions playing dice; crown of thorns; Eloi Eloi lama sabactani; gave up the ghost; the earth rent in twain etc etc. It’s probably the only story in “Western” literature as influential on English language and idiom as Shakespeare.
    Yes, that's all fine, so call it the Easter weekend.

    My objection was to one or two Woke people at work deliberately omitting the word Easter because of equity and diversity bollocks.
    Step back and consider the obvious non-woke reason for calling it a long bank holiday weekend, which is to emphasise how much time you get off work, grouping it with other long bank holiday weekends, all of which are also named individually when you wish to focus on the particular.
    Just leave them to it. This anti-woke stuff does not survive contact with the general public, and if they insist on bringing it up on the doorstep they will deserve all the electoral hammering they get.

    The Conservatives are in a tight doom spin which means that the remaining members, councillors and MPs who are shameless enough to keep campaigning tend to be more and more on the extreme right of the party.

    I think this is now more of an issue than it was for Labour under Corbyn. Consider the latest anti-Khan video. Everyone sensible has left. They desperately need a Ruth Davidson type figure at CCHQ .
    @Casino_Royale is making a valid point but not a new one: progressives are embarrassed by tradition, preferring anything exotic and 'more interesting'; and provocatively renaming traditional religious holidays is a symptom of this. I don't think there are massive political implications but it all gets a bit tiring when their own vision of the future is failing all around them but there is little self reflection or criticism.
    I think I'm a 'progressive', particularly on social issues; and I'm not embarrassed by tradition at all. I don't mind if people call it 'Easter'; 'the spring holidays', 'long bank holiday', or whatever. I quite like pomp and pageantry.

    If I may throw back your view: anti-progressives are embarrassed by the modern world; and look back to a 'golden age' that differs from person-to-person, and never really existed anyway. Many are quite insane; as an example, some people are blaming the Baltimore tragedy on 'diversity hires'.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 8,256

    kle4 said:

    Cookie said:

    Anyway. Happy Easter everyone.
    I bloody love Easter. Easter asks absolutely nothing of you. It doesn't give you a list of things to do; doesn't ask you to wear fancy dress, or to feel a certain emotion. Greetings cards companies might see a market for their product, but they're fooling no-one. All Easter does is come along without you really budgeting for it and gives you a lovely long weekend.
    I'm going to have a lie in tomorrow. Christ may be risen, but I'm not planning on following his example until gone 10.

    The rising will be on Sunday. I'm afraid the Friday didn't go that well for him.
    Could have been worse. Jesus was an ascetic and in fairly good shape so he survived longer on the cross than usual. A kind-hearted Roman soldier administered the coup de grace but missed his vital organs. Jesus was still alive when they took him to Gethsemane and sealed the tomb. Luckily, for Jesus, tomb robbers turned up on Saturday (when the locals were otherwise engaged) and had the freight of their lives when they rolled away the boulder and were met with a cheery 'Shalom' from a bloke in a shroud. They scarpered pdq and Jesus wandered off looking for a bite to eat. When Mary'n'Mary showed up on the Lord's Day they jumped to the obvious, if fallacious, conclusion. The rest, as they say, is History.
    Yep, three options.

    1. He wasn't dead.
    2. Someone or some people removed his body.
    3. He rose from the dead.

    Actually, four options...

    4. The biblical account is a fictionalised
    version of events.

    If someone was offering odds, I think number 3 would be the 1,000,000/1 outsider.
    Then you get to the C S Lewis question.

    If you are right then why were so many of the apostles - who presumably knew the truth - willing to suffer torture and martyrdom for a lie?
    People die for lies all the time, for regimes or groups they must know have done terrible things as just one example. But in any case a simple answer would be that even people very closest to the actual
    historical events, whatever those might have been, may have perceived or
    interpreted the truth very differently, may
    have believed in miraculous explanations.

    If 'why would X do Y if it were not true?' wouldn't all religions be true, since people
    at the start of them must have 'known' and died (or killed) for it?
    Not really buying that.

    Christianity is the only real example (I think) of a subversive movement which was systematically persecuted by the authorities (both Jewish and Roman).

    Judaism was pre-history; Islam was a tribal power play. Don’t know enough about the origins of Hinduism or Buddhism to apply the theory.
    The Romans persecuted other religious movements: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_persecution_in_the_Roman_Empire
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,806

    kle4 said:

    Cookie said:

    Anyway. Happy Easter everyone.
    I bloody love Easter. Easter asks absolutely nothing of you. It doesn't give you a list of things to do; doesn't ask you to wear fancy dress, or to feel a certain emotion. Greetings cards companies might see a market for their product, but they're fooling no-one. All Easter does is come along without you really budgeting for it and gives you a lovely long weekend.
    I'm going to have a lie in tomorrow. Christ may be risen, but I'm not planning on following his example until gone 10.

    The rising will be on Sunday. I'm afraid the Friday didn't go that well for him.
    Could have been worse. Jesus was an ascetic and in fairly good shape so he survived longer on the cross than usual. A kind-hearted Roman soldier administered the coup de grace but missed his vital organs. Jesus was still alive when they took him to Gethsemane and sealed the tomb. Luckily, for Jesus, tomb robbers turned up on Saturday (when the locals were otherwise engaged) and had the freight of their lives when they rolled away the boulder and were met with a cheery 'Shalom' from a bloke in a shroud. They scarpered pdq and Jesus wandered off looking for a bite to eat. When Mary'n'Mary showed up on the Lord's Day they jumped to the obvious, if fallacious, conclusion. The rest, as they say, is History.
    Yep, three options.

    1. He wasn't dead.
    2. Someone or some people removed his body.
    3. He rose from the dead.

    Actually, four options...

    4. The biblical account is a fictionalised
    version of events.

    If someone was offering odds, I think number 3 would be the 1,000,000/1 outsider.
    Then you get to the C S Lewis question.

    If you are right then why were so many of the apostles - who presumably knew the truth - willing to suffer torture and martyrdom for a lie?
    People die for lies all the time, for regimes or groups they must know have done terrible things as just one example. But in any case a simple answer would be that even people very closest to the actual
    historical events, whatever those might have been, may have perceived or
    interpreted the truth very differently, may
    have believed in miraculous explanations.

    If 'why would X do Y if it were not true?' wouldn't all religions be true, since people
    at the start of them must have 'known' and died (or killed) for it?
    Not really buying that.

    Christianity is the only real example (I think) of a subversive movement which was systematically persecuted by the authorities (both Jewish and Roman).

    Judaism was pre-history; Islam was a tribal power play. Don’t know enough about the origins of Hinduism or Buddhism to apply the theory.
    The Romans persecuted other religious movements: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_persecution_in_the_Roman_Empire
    Don’t tell Catherine Nixey that…
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,822

    darkage said:

    Eabhal said:

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    One thing that's annoying me this week: people referring to this week as "the long bank holiday weekend".

    No, it isn't: t's the Easter bank holiday weekend.

    It's remarkable that they are almost always the same people who are first out the gates on LGBT+ history month or to applaud the celebration of Ramadan.

    Can't say I've come across people being shy about calling it Easter myself. Is this something concerted or just some general trend?
    Nor me. I think people refer to the long bank holiday weekend because that’s what it means to a lot of us. An extended and welcome 4 days off and the start of our UK string of spring bank holidays that culminate at Whitsun. Time to head to IKEA/B&Q/Garden centre, have a nice leg of lamb on Easter Day and if you’re young enough do a 2 day clubbing marathon.

    I like the Christian bits of Easter too, not because I’m religious (I’m not) but because the biblical texts and the music that accompanies them are pretty epic: cornerstones of our literary universe. Tonight and Good Friday in particular:

    The last supper; Judas kiss; the garden of gethsemane; Pilate washing his hands; let his blood be upon us; Centurions playing dice; crown of thorns; Eloi Eloi lama sabactani; gave up the ghost; the earth rent in twain etc etc. It’s probably the only story in “Western” literature as influential on English language and idiom as Shakespeare.
    Yes, that's all fine, so call it the Easter weekend.

    My objection was to one or two Woke people at work deliberately omitting the word Easter because of equity and diversity bollocks.
    Step back and consider the obvious non-woke reason for calling it a long bank holiday weekend, which is to emphasise how much time you get off work, grouping it with other long bank holiday weekends, all of which are also named individually when you wish to focus on the particular.
    Just leave them to it. This anti-woke stuff does not survive contact with the general public, and if they insist on bringing it up on the doorstep they will deserve all the electoral hammering they get.

    The Conservatives are in a tight doom spin which means that the remaining members, councillors and MPs who are shameless enough to keep campaigning tend to be more and more on the extreme right of the party.

    I think this is now more of an issue than it was for Labour under Corbyn. Consider the latest anti-Khan video. Everyone sensible has left. They desperately need a Ruth Davidson type figure at CCHQ .
    @Casino_Royale is making a valid point but not a new one: progressives are embarrassed by tradition, preferring anything exotic and 'more interesting'; and provocatively renaming traditional religious holidays is a symptom of this. I don't think there are massive political implications but it all gets a bit tiring when their own vision of the future is failing all around them but there is little self reflection or criticism.
    I think I'm a 'progressive', particularly on social issues; and I'm not embarrassed by tradition at all. I don't mind if people call it 'Easter'; 'the spring holidays', 'long bank holiday', or whatever. I quite like pomp and pageantry.

    If I may throw back your view: anti-progressives are embarrassed by the modern world; and look back to a 'golden age' that differs from person-to-person, and never really existed anyway. Many are quite insane; as an example, some people are blaming the Baltimore tragedy on 'diversity hires'.
    I should have said 'some progressives', not all progressives.
    But anyway... examples abound of this issue.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/03/28/westminster-council-celebrates-ramadan-not-easter/
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,423
    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve been away so london feels like a foreign city. A really IMPRESSIVE foreign city

    What an odd feeling

    Central London is impressive one of the great cities of the world. I would say only New York City compares.
    London is a magnificent glittering prosperous world city, full of beautiful women. When you go away for six months, you realise this when you return

    Also the Groucho is really hopping. Astonishing. Haven’t seen it this full since pre Covid. And it’s a rainy chilly midweek night. Encouraging

    One american described the uk to me as one great city with a shit country attached. Maybe not too far wrong.
    When I did the Pennine Way 25 years ago, I met up for a couple of days with a young guy from Utah; it was hi first time in the UK. His verdict on the trail was essentially this: "We have more spectacular scenery in America, ut you have to travel for days to see a different type of spectacular scenery. Here, you get three or four different types of dramatic scenery during a day's walk."

    And the southern end of the trail certainly feels like that.

    We in the UK are blessed.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,699
    edited March 29
    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    As Christopher Columbus said: the more you travel the more you know

    I had to leave for 6 months to see London for what it is. Cold rainy sometimes violent - but absolutely astonishing. A peak moment in human civilisation

    What would you say elevates it above other major cities? There are bigger ones, ones which are very diverse and vibrant etc

    Genuine question.
    Sophistication, culture, architecture, history, elegance, vibe, and... a certain... THING

    If you'te in the middle of central London drinking on a rainy Thursday night you are probably quite elite in some way: beauty, money, class, style, youth, talent, knapping skill. You are surrounded by similar people. It feels right and good, you are chosen, this is how the world should be

    A great world city functions like a kind of private members' club. Its innate expense and hassle excludes the boring, the old, the stupid, and the poor

    Yeah manchester is probably our 2nd city but it feels nothing like london at all and round Piccadilly Gardens is pretty sketchy. However compared to shitholes like Bradford its still a veritable metropolis.
    To be a little more serious, Edinburgh is surely the UK's second city. It has political power and cultural prestige that Manchester can only dream of, and it is infinitely more beautiful than Manchester, indeed its more beautiful than London in terms of architectural coherence. Edinburgh has a good claim to be in the top ten most beautiful cities on the planet - London. by contrast, is too varied and weird to ever claim this. London has many moments of intense beauty, and many moments of intense ugliness

    But, fuck me, Edinburgh, you need to knock down the Jobbie Building, and the Holyrood Parliament. They are two of the horriblest things ever made and a good summary of Scotland under the SNP
    New Labour, afiak. Everyone else was in favour of using an older historic building.

    There's a whole book to be written about how Scotland and Edinburgh ended up with the grotesque and ferociously expensive wart that is Holyrood. NO ONE LIKES IT. Look on Trip Advisor. It is universally despised, tourists hate it and locals hate it, worldwide opinion polls consistently rate it as one of the most fugly buildings on earth, beating out modernist horrors like Boston City Hall, Monparnasse Tower and the Hoover building in DC (and I have seen all three, and if you are uglier than those: wow)

    How do terrifyingly hideous yet fantastically expensive buildings get made? There seems to be a point where so much money is invested - and so much emotion and time - no one is willing to stand up and say Wait, this is shit. Huge movies that turn out to be turkeys are similar, as are prestige railways - like HS2

    So the horrific expense of Holyrood - ten times over budget - is actually one of the reasons it was completed, and why it now blights one of the most beautiful cities on earth, seemingly forever. Sunk Cost

    It’s architects. The hotel I stayed at in Budapest had an interesting story. Situated on a prime site overlooking the Danube at the end of the world famous Chain Bridge, the owner of the site, which needed complete redevelopment due to wartime and subsequent damage, agreed to an open competition to design the new hotel, with a judging panel stuffed with worthies from government and the architectural world. The winning entry was an ingenious design, that presented a windowless slab toward the river with the light and view reflected into the interior through a large light well and a series of mirrors, such that the view of the river would effectively be through a giant periscope. The owner was deeply concerned at going ahead given that the view from the site was its prime asset, and refused to go ahead with the design when the winning architects couldn’t answer basic questions about how the periscope would be maintained and how it would cope with the extremes of hot and cold weather.

    In the end, an interesting but less wacky design got built, with lovely big windows in almost every room of the hotel.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 8,256
    darkage said:

    Eabhal said:

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    One thing that's annoying me this week: people referring to this week as "the long bank holiday weekend".

    No, it isn't: t's the Easter bank holiday weekend.

    It's remarkable that they are almost always the same people who are first out the gates on LGBT+ history month or to applaud the celebration of Ramadan.

    Can't say I've come across people being shy about calling it Easter myself. Is this something concerted or just some general trend?
    Nor me. I think people refer to the long bank holiday weekend because that’s what it means to a lot of us. An extended and welcome 4 days off and the start of our UK string of spring bank holidays that culminate at Whitsun. Time to head to IKEA/B&Q/Garden centre, have a nice leg of lamb on Easter Day and if you’re young enough do a 2 day clubbing marathon.

    I like the Christian bits of Easter too, not because I’m religious (I’m not) but because the biblical texts and the music that accompanies them are pretty epic: cornerstones of our literary universe. Tonight and Good Friday in particular:

    The last supper; Judas kiss; the garden of gethsemane; Pilate washing his hands; let his blood be upon us; Centurions playing dice; crown of thorns; Eloi Eloi lama sabactani; gave up the ghost; the earth rent in twain etc etc. It’s probably the only story in “Western” literature as influential on English language and idiom as Shakespeare.
    Yes, that's all fine, so call it the Easter weekend.

    My objection was to one or two Woke people at work deliberately omitting the word Easter because of equity and diversity bollocks.
    Step back and consider the obvious non-woke reason for calling it a long bank holiday weekend, which is to emphasise how much time you get off work, grouping it with other long bank holiday weekends, all of which are also named individually when you wish to focus on the particular.
    Just leave them to it. This anti-woke stuff does not survive contact with the general public, and if they insist on bringing it up on the doorstep they will deserve all the electoral hammering they get.

    The Conservatives are in a tight doom spin which means that the remaining members, councillors and MPs who are shameless enough to keep campaigning tend to be more and more on the extreme right of the party.

    I think this is now more of an issue than it was for Labour under Corbyn. Consider the latest anti-Khan video. Everyone sensible has left. They desperately need a Ruth Davidson type figure at CCHQ .
    @Casino_Royale is making a valid point but not a new one: progressives are embarrassed by tradition, preferring anything exotic and 'more interesting'; and provocatively renaming traditional religious holidays is a symptom of this. I don't think there are massive political implications but it all gets a bit tiring when their own vision of the future is failing all around them but there is little self reflection or criticism.
    The idea that progressives are renaming traditional religious holidays in the UK is a myth. It’s importing a US thing and looking for the same thing happening over here.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,699
    Sean_F said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve been away so london feels like a foreign city. A really IMPRESSIVE foreign city

    What an odd feeling

    Central London is impressive one of the great cities of the world. I would say only New York City compares.
    London is a magnificent glittering prosperous world city, full of beautiful women. When you go away for six months, you realise this when you return

    Also the Groucho is really hopping. Astonishing. Haven’t seen it this full since pre Covid. And it’s a rainy chilly midweek night. Encouraging

    One american described the uk to me as one great city with a shit country attached. Maybe not too far wrong.
    Quite a lot far wrong.

    The UK has some of the most exquisite areas of outstanding natural beauty and national parks on the planet outside London. Also, charming castles, homes, history and heritage - some of which goes back thousands of years. And most of it is beautifully preserved - for all its faults our planning system is actually rather good at not trashing what we have. It's one reason we're the number one filming destination outside Holywood now.

    Yes, there are some hideous new towns and horrid post industrial tenements and borderline wastelands - as most developed Western countries also have, and the US, Canada and Australia definitely have their equivalents or worse - but you don't go there.
    The sort of Amercians who say that would probably say the same thing about their own country.
    I doubt it. The US, both urban and scenically, is often impressive, but rarely attractive.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,423
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    As Christopher Columbus said: the more you travel the more you know

    I had to leave for 6 months to see London for what it is. Cold rainy sometimes violent - but absolutely astonishing. A peak moment in human civilisation

    What would you say elevates it above other major cities? There are bigger ones, ones which are very diverse and vibrant etc

    Genuine question.
    Sophistication, culture, architecture, history, elegance, vibe, and... a certain... THING

    If you'te in the middle of central London drinking on a rainy Thursday night you are probably quite elite in some way: beauty, money, class, style, youth, talent, knapping skill. You are surrounded by similar people. It feels right and good, you are chosen, this is how the world should be

    A great world city functions like a kind of private members' club. Its innate expense and hassle excludes the boring, the old, the stupid, and the poor

    Yeah manchester is probably our 2nd city but it feels nothing like london at all and round Piccadilly Gardens is pretty sketchy. However compared to shitholes like Bradford its still a veritable metropolis.
    To be a little more serious, Edinburgh is surely the UK's second city. It has political power and cultural prestige that Manchester can only dream of, and it is infinitely more beautiful than Manchester, indeed its more beautiful than London in terms of architectural coherence. Edinburgh has a good claim to be in the top ten most beautiful cities on the planet - London. by contrast, is too varied and weird to ever claim this. London has many moments of intense beauty, and many moments of intense ugliness

    But, fuck me, Edinburgh, you need to knock down the Jobbie Building, and the Holyrood Parliament. They are two of the horriblest things ever made and a good summary of Scotland under the SNP
    New Labour, afiak. Everyone else was in favour of using an older historic building.

    There's a whole book to be written about how Scotland and Edinburgh ended up with the grotesque and ferociously expensive wart that is Holyrood. NO ONE LIKES IT. Look on Trip Advisor. It is universally despised, tourists hate it and locals hate it, worldwide opinion polls consistently rate it as one of the most fugly buildings on earth, beating out modernist horrors like Boston City Hall, Monparnasse Tower and the Hoover building in DC (and I have seen all three, and if you are uglier than those: wow)

    How do terrifyingly hideous yet fantastically expensive buildings get made? There seems to be a point where so much money is invested - and so much emotion and time - no one is willing to stand up and say Wait, this is shit. Huge movies that turn out to be turkeys are similar, as are prestige railways - like HS2

    So the horrific expense of Holyrood - ten times over budget - is actually one of the reasons it was completed, and why it now blights one of the most beautiful cities on earth, seemingly forever. Sunk Cost

    It’s architects. The hotel I stayed at in Budapest had an interesting story. Situated on a prime site overlooking the Danube at the end of the world famous Chain Bridge, the owner of the site, which needed complete redevelopment due to wartime and subsequent damage, agreed to an open competition to design the new hotel, with a judging panel stuffed with worthies from government and the architectural world. The winning entry was an ingenious design, that presented a windowless slab toward the river with the light and view reflected into the interior through a large light well and a series of mirrors, such that the view of the river would effectively be through a giant periscope. The owner was deeply concerned at going ahead given that the view from the site was its prime asset, and refused to go ahead with the design when the winning architects couldn’t answer basic questions about how the periscope would be maintained and how it would cope with the extremes of hot and cold weather.

    In the end, an interesting but less wacky design got built, with lovely big windows in almost every room of the hotel. (Snip)
    There's a big issue with architects; particularly top architects, conceptually designing buildings ahead of time, then looking or sites for them to go in. It allows them to conceptualise fantastic buildings and get ahead in competitions; but it also takes f-all notice of the site's context.

    I can't remember if it was Fosters or Rogers who was 'famed' for doing this.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,699
    The corruption of this dying government grows and grows.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 56,176

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    One thing that's annoying me this week: people referring to this week as "the long bank holiday weekend".

    No, it isn't: t's the Easter bank holiday weekend.

    It's remarkable that they are almost always the same people who are first out the gates on LGBT+ history month or to applaud the celebration of Ramadan.

    Can't say I've come across people being shy about calling it Easter myself. Is this something concerted or just some general trend?
    Nor me. I think people refer to the long bank holiday weekend because that’s what it means to a lot of us. An extended and welcome 4 days off and the start of our UK string of spring bank holidays that culminate at Whitsun. Time to head to IKEA/B&Q/Garden centre, have a nice leg of lamb on Easter Day and if you’re young enough do a 2 day clubbing marathon.

    I like the Christian bits of Easter too, not because I’m religious (I’m not) but because the biblical texts and the music that accompanies them are pretty epic: cornerstones of our literary universe. Tonight and Good Friday in particular:

    The last supper; Judas kiss; the garden of gethsemane; Pilate washing his hands; let his blood be upon us; Centurions playing dice; crown of thorns; Eloi Eloi lama sabactani; gave up the ghost; the earth rent in twain etc etc. It’s probably the only story in “Western” literature as influential on English language and idiom as Shakespeare.
    Yes, that's all fine, so call it the Easter weekend.

    My objection was to one or two Woke people at work deliberately omitting the word Easter because of equity and diversity bollocks.
    Step back and consider the obvious non-woke reason for calling it a long bank holiday weekend, which is to emphasise how much time you get off work, grouping it with other long bank holiday weekends, all of which are also named individually when you wish to focus on the particular.
    It's the Easter bank holiday weekend. Not a "normal" bank holiday weekend. It'd be like calling Christmas a bank holiday break or a Winterval.

    We all know this. So do you.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,087
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Cookie said:

    Anyway. Happy Easter everyone.
    I bloody love Easter. Easter asks absolutely nothing of you. It doesn't give you a list of things to do; doesn't ask you to wear fancy dress, or to feel a certain emotion. Greetings cards companies might see a market for their product, but they're fooling no-one. All Easter does is come along without you really budgeting for it and gives you a lovely long weekend.
    I'm going to have a lie in tomorrow. Christ may be risen, but I'm not planning on following his example until gone 10.

    The rising will be on Sunday. I'm afraid the Friday didn't go that well for him.
    Could have been worse. Jesus was an ascetic and in fairly good shape so he survived longer on the cross than usual. A kind-hearted Roman soldier administered the coup de grace but missed his vital organs. Jesus was still alive when they took him to Gethsemane and sealed the tomb. Luckily, for Jesus, tomb robbers turned up on Saturday (when the locals were otherwise engaged) and had the freight of their lives when they rolled away the boulder and were met with a cheery 'Shalom' from a bloke in a shroud. They scarpered pdq and Jesus wandered off looking for a bite to eat. When Mary'n'Mary showed up on the Lord's Day they jumped to the obvious, if fallacious, conclusion. The rest, as they say, is History.
    Yep, three options.

    1. He wasn't dead.
    2. Someone or some people removed his body.
    3. He rose from the dead.

    Actually, four options...

    4. The biblical account is a fictionalised
    version of events.

    If someone was offering odds, I think number 3 would be the 1,000,000/1 outsider.
    Then you get to the C S Lewis question.

    If you are right then why were so many of the apostles - who presumably knew the truth - willing to suffer torture and martyrdom for a lie?
    People die for lies all the time, for regimes or groups they must know have done terrible things as just one example. But in any case a simple answer would be that even people very closest to the actual
    historical events, whatever those might have been, may have perceived or
    interpreted the truth very differently, may
    have believed in miraculous explanations.

    If 'why would X do Y if it were not true?' wouldn't all religions be true, since people
    at the start of them must have 'known' and died (or killed) for it?
    Not really buying that.

    Christianity is the only real example (I think) of a subversive movement which was systematically persecuted by the authorities (both Jewish and Roman).

    Judaism was pre-history; Islam was a tribal power play. Don’t know enough about the origins of Hinduism or Buddhism to apply the theory.
    The Romans persecuted other religious movements: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_persecution_in_the_Roman_Empire
    Don’t tell Catherine Nixey that…
    I was honestly bemused when I read the Darkening Age, to see the pre-Christian empire described as "liberal" and "tolerant".

    Hadrian's treatment of the Jews was genocidal.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 56,176
    darkage said:

    Eabhal said:

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    One thing that's annoying me this week: people referring to this week as "the long bank holiday weekend".

    No, it isn't: t's the Easter bank holiday weekend.

    It's remarkable that they are almost always the same people who are first out the gates on LGBT+ history month or to applaud the celebration of Ramadan.

    Can't say I've come across people being shy about calling it Easter myself. Is this something concerted or just some general trend?
    Nor me. I think people refer to the long bank holiday weekend because that’s what it means to a lot of us. An extended and welcome 4 days off and the start of our UK string of spring bank holidays that culminate at Whitsun. Time to head to IKEA/B&Q/Garden centre, have a nice leg of lamb on Easter Day and if you’re young enough do a 2 day clubbing marathon.

    I like the Christian bits of Easter too, not because I’m religious (I’m not) but because the biblical texts and the music that accompanies them are pretty epic: cornerstones of our literary universe. Tonight and Good Friday in particular:

    The last supper; Judas kiss; the garden of gethsemane; Pilate washing his hands; let his blood be upon us; Centurions playing dice; crown of thorns; Eloi Eloi lama sabactani; gave up the ghost; the earth rent in twain etc etc. It’s probably the only story in “Western” literature as influential on English language and idiom as Shakespeare.
    Yes, that's all fine, so call it the Easter weekend.

    My objection was to one or two Woke people at work deliberately omitting the word Easter because of equity and diversity bollocks.
    Step back and consider the obvious non-woke reason for calling it a long bank holiday weekend, which is to emphasise how much time you get off work, grouping it with other long bank holiday weekends, all of which are also named individually when you wish to focus on the particular.
    Just leave them to it. This anti-woke stuff does not survive contact with the general public, and if they insist on bringing it up on the doorstep they will deserve all the electoral hammering they get.

    The Conservatives are in a tight doom spin which means that the remaining members, councillors and MPs who are shameless enough to keep campaigning tend to be more and more on the extreme right of the party.

    I think this is now more of an issue than it was for Labour under Corbyn. Consider the latest anti-Khan video. Everyone sensible has left. They desperately need a Ruth Davidson type figure at CCHQ .
    @Casino_Royale is making a valid point but not a new one: progressives are embarrassed by tradition, preferring anything exotic and 'more interesting'; and provocatively renaming traditional religious holidays is a symptom of this. I don't think there are massive political implications but it all gets a bit tiring when their own vision of the future is failing all around them but there is little self reflection or criticism.
    Thank you.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 56,176
    Sean_F said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    Trent said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve been away so london feels like a foreign city. A really IMPRESSIVE foreign city

    What an odd feeling

    Central London is impressive one of the great cities of the world. I would say only New York City compares.
    London is a magnificent glittering prosperous world city, full of beautiful women. When you go away for six months, you realise this when you return

    Also the Groucho is really hopping. Astonishing. Haven’t seen it this full since pre Covid. And it’s a rainy chilly midweek night. Encouraging

    One american described the uk to me as one great city with a shit country attached. Maybe not too far wrong.
    Quite a lot far wrong.

    The UK has some of the most exquisite areas of outstanding natural beauty and national parks on the planet outside London. Also, charming castles, homes, history and heritage - some of which goes back thousands of years. And most of it is beautifully preserved - for all its faults our planning system is actually rather good at not trashing what we have. It's one reason we're the number one filming destination outside Holywood now.

    Yes, there are some hideous new towns and horrid post industrial tenements and borderline wastelands - as most developed Western countries also have, and the US, Canada and Australia definitely have their equivalents or worse - but you don't go there.
    The sort of Amercians who say that would probably say the same thing about their own country.
    Yes and, indeed, plenty of Londoners say it as well - sometimes they're ones who only do London and other big cities.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 56,176
    Eabhal said:

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    One thing that's annoying me this week: people referring to this week as "the long bank holiday weekend".

    No, it isn't: t's the Easter bank holiday weekend.

    It's remarkable that they are almost always the same people who are first out the gates on LGBT+ history month or to applaud the celebration of Ramadan.

    Can't say I've come across people being shy about calling it Easter myself. Is this something concerted or just some general trend?
    Nor me. I think people refer to the long bank holiday weekend because that’s what it means to a lot of us. An extended and welcome 4 days off and the start of our UK string of spring bank holidays that culminate at Whitsun. Time to head to IKEA/B&Q/Garden centre, have a nice leg of lamb on Easter Day and if you’re young enough do a 2 day clubbing marathon.

    I like the Christian bits of Easter too, not because I’m religious (I’m not) but because the biblical texts and the music that accompanies them are pretty epic: cornerstones of our literary universe. Tonight and Good Friday in particular:

    The last supper; Judas kiss; the garden of gethsemane; Pilate washing his hands; let his blood be upon us; Centurions playing dice; crown of thorns; Eloi Eloi lama sabactani; gave up the ghost; the earth rent in twain etc etc. It’s probably the only story in “Western” literature as influential on English language and idiom as Shakespeare.
    Yes, that's all fine, so call it the Easter weekend.

    My objection was to one or two Woke people at work deliberately omitting the word Easter because of equity and diversity bollocks.
    Step back and consider the obvious non-woke reason for calling it a long bank holiday weekend, which is to emphasise how much time you get off work, grouping it with other long bank holiday weekends, all of which are also named individually when you wish to focus on the particular.
    Just leave them to it. This anti-woke stuff does not survive contact with the general public, and if they insist on bringing it up on the doorstep they will deserve all the electoral hammering they get.

    The Conservatives are in a tight doom spin which means that the remaining members, councillors and MPs who are shameless enough to keep campaigning tend to be more and more on the extreme right of the party.

    I think this is now more of an issue than it was for Labour under Corbyn. Consider the latest anti-Khan video. Everyone sensible has left. They desperately need a Ruth Davidson type figure at CCHQ .
    Oh, but it does. It plays into all sorts of concerns about identity and cohesion the consequences of which we see in our deeply polarised society today.

    It's not an election winner by itself but the reflexive dismissal of it by you and your ilk is a real problem for your world view and values in the medium-long term, yet you're too blind to see it. Indeed, you laugh at it.

    Thankfully, not everyone is the same - there are some intelligent posters on the left/liberal wing who get it - like @darkage and @Gardenwalker- and journalists like Matthew Syed and Trevor Phillips.

    Learn from them.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,806
    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Cookie said:

    Anyway. Happy Easter everyone.
    I bloody love Easter. Easter asks absolutely nothing of you. It doesn't give you a list of things to do; doesn't ask you to wear fancy dress, or to feel a certain emotion. Greetings cards companies might see a market for their product, but they're fooling no-one. All Easter does is come along without you really budgeting for it and gives you a lovely long weekend.
    I'm going to have a lie in tomorrow. Christ may be risen, but I'm not planning on following his example until gone 10.

    The rising will be on Sunday. I'm afraid the Friday didn't go that well for him.
    Could have been worse. Jesus was an ascetic and in fairly good shape so he survived longer on the cross than usual. A kind-hearted Roman soldier administered the coup de grace but missed his vital organs. Jesus was still alive when they took him to Gethsemane and sealed the tomb. Luckily, for Jesus, tomb robbers turned up on Saturday (when the locals were otherwise engaged) and had the freight of their lives when they rolled away the boulder and were met with a cheery 'Shalom' from a bloke in a shroud. They scarpered pdq and Jesus wandered off looking for a bite to eat. When Mary'n'Mary showed up on the Lord's Day they jumped to the obvious, if fallacious, conclusion. The rest, as they say, is History.
    Yep, three options.

    1. He wasn't dead.
    2. Someone or some people removed his body.
    3. He rose from the dead.

    Actually, four options...

    4. The biblical account is a fictionalised
    version of events.

    If someone was offering odds, I think number 3 would be the 1,000,000/1 outsider.
    Then you get to the C S Lewis question.

    If you are right then why were so many of the apostles - who presumably knew the truth - willing to suffer torture and martyrdom for a lie?
    People die for lies all the time, for regimes or groups they must know have done terrible things as just one example. But in any case a simple answer would be that even people very closest to the actual
    historical events, whatever those might have been, may have perceived or
    interpreted the truth very differently, may
    have believed in miraculous explanations.

    If 'why would X do Y if it were not true?' wouldn't all religions be true, since people
    at the start of them must have 'known' and died (or killed) for it?
    Not really buying that.

    Christianity is the only real example (I think) of a subversive movement which was systematically persecuted by the authorities (both Jewish and Roman).

    Judaism was pre-history; Islam was a tribal power play. Don’t know enough about the origins of Hinduism or Buddhism to apply the theory.
    The Romans persecuted other religious movements: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_persecution_in_the_Roman_Empire
    Don’t tell Catherine Nixey that…
    I was honestly bemused when I read the Darkening Age, to see the pre-Christian empire described as "liberal" and "tolerant".

    Hadrian's treatment of the Jews was genocidal.
    What was in many ways more bemusing is that she expressed at least qualified approval of its persecutions of Christianity - including executions.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,087
    edited March 29

    kle4 said:

    Cookie said:

    Anyway. Happy Easter everyone.
    I bloody love Easter. Easter asks absolutely nothing of you. It doesn't give you a list of things to do; doesn't ask you to wear fancy dress, or to feel a certain emotion. Greetings cards companies might see a market for their product, but they're fooling no-one. All Easter does is come along without you really budgeting for it and gives you a lovely long weekend.
    I'm going to have a lie in tomorrow. Christ may be risen, but I'm not planning on following his example until gone 10.

    The rising will be on Sunday. I'm afraid the Friday didn't go that well for him.
    Could have been worse. Jesus was an ascetic and in fairly good shape so he survived longer on the cross than usual. A kind-hearted Roman soldier administered the coup de grace but missed his vital organs. Jesus was still alive when they took him to Gethsemane and sealed the tomb. Luckily, for Jesus, tomb robbers turned up on Saturday (when the locals were otherwise engaged) and had the freight of their lives when they rolled away the boulder and were met with a cheery 'Shalom' from a bloke in a shroud. They scarpered pdq and Jesus wandered off looking for a bite to eat. When Mary'n'Mary showed up on the Lord's Day they jumped to the obvious, if fallacious, conclusion. The rest, as they say, is History.
    Yep, three options.

    1. He wasn't dead.
    2. Someone or some people removed his body.
    3. He rose from the dead.

    Actually, four options...

    4. The biblical account is a fictionalised
    version of events.

    If someone was offering odds, I think number 3 would be the 1,000,000/1 outsider.
    Then you get to the C S Lewis question.

    If you are right then why were so many of the apostles - who presumably knew the truth - willing to suffer torture and martyrdom for a lie?
    People die for lies all the time, for regimes or groups they must know have done terrible things as just one example. But in any case a simple answer would be that even people very closest to the actual
    historical events, whatever those might have been, may have perceived or
    interpreted the truth very differently, may
    have believed in miraculous explanations.

    If 'why would X do Y if it were not true?' wouldn't all religions be true, since people
    at the start of them must have 'known' and died (or killed) for it?
    Not really buying that.

    Christianity is the only real example (I think) of a subversive movement which was systematically persecuted by the authorities (both Jewish and Roman).

    Judaism was pre-history; Islam was a tribal power play. Don’t know enough about the origins of Hinduism or Buddhism to apply the theory.
    The Romans persecuted other religious movements: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_persecution_in_the_Roman_Empire
    Gibbon believed upper class Romans to be like him, an upper class 18th century sceptic. Although he is largely discredited by scholars, his outlook still remains dominant at the popular level.

    Religious persecution was in fact, rife in the ancient world. But, it was rarely based upon doctrinal arguments. It was rather based upon failing to show what the authorities considered as proper respect and honour to the gods, a real fear of witchcraft and magic, and fear of political and moral subversion.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,087
    edited March 29
    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Cookie said:

    Anyway. Happy Easter everyone.
    I bloody love Easter. Easter asks absolutely nothing of you. It doesn't give you a list of things to do; doesn't ask you to wear fancy dress, or to feel a certain emotion. Greetings cards companies might see a market for their product, but they're fooling no-one. All Easter does is come along without you really budgeting for it and gives you a lovely long weekend.
    I'm going to have a lie in tomorrow. Christ may be risen, but I'm not planning on following his example until gone 10.

    The rising will be on Sunday. I'm afraid the Friday didn't go that well for him.
    Could have been worse. Jesus was an ascetic and in fairly good shape so he survived longer on the cross than usual. A kind-hearted Roman soldier administered the coup de grace but missed his vital organs. Jesus was still alive when they took him to Gethsemane and sealed the tomb. Luckily, for Jesus, tomb robbers turned up on Saturday (when the locals were otherwise engaged) and had the freight of their lives when they rolled away the boulder and were met with a cheery 'Shalom' from a bloke in a shroud. They scarpered pdq and Jesus wandered off looking for a bite to eat. When Mary'n'Mary showed up on the Lord's Day they jumped to the obvious, if fallacious, conclusion. The rest, as they say, is History.
    Yep, three options.

    1. He wasn't dead.
    2. Someone or some people removed his body.
    3. He rose from the dead.

    Actually, four options...

    4. The biblical account is a fictionalised
    version of events.

    If someone was offering odds, I think number 3 would be the 1,000,000/1 outsider.
    Then you get to the C S Lewis question.

    If you are right then why were so many of the apostles - who presumably knew the truth - willing to suffer torture and martyrdom for a lie?
    People die for lies all the time, for regimes or groups they must know have done terrible things as just one example. But in any case a simple answer would be that even people very closest to the actual
    historical events, whatever those might have been, may have perceived or
    interpreted the truth very differently, may
    have believed in miraculous explanations.

    If 'why would X do Y if it were not true?' wouldn't all religions be true, since people
    at the start of them must have 'known' and died (or killed) for it?
    Not really buying that.

    Christianity is the only real example (I think) of a subversive movement which was systematically persecuted by the authorities (both Jewish and Roman).

    Judaism was pre-history; Islam was a tribal power play. Don’t know enough about the origins of Hinduism or Buddhism to apply the theory.
    The Romans persecuted other religious movements: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_persecution_in_the_Roman_Empire
    Don’t tell Catherine Nixey that…
    I was honestly bemused when I read the Darkening Age, to see the pre-Christian empire described as "liberal" and "tolerant".

    Hadrian's treatment of the Jews was genocidal.
    What was in many ways more bemusing is that she expressed at least qualified approval of its persecutions of Christianity - including executions.
    As per my last post, people like Catherine Nixey simply refuse to believe that upper class pagans were absolutely sincere in their religious beliefs. They were not honorary atheists, or sceptics.

    Had I been a Roman governor in the 2nd or 3rd century, I'm sure I would have hated Christianity and have seen its followers as wilfully spitting in the face of the gods. But, I wouldn't be opposing it on the grounds of liberalism.
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 6,268
    darkage said:

    Eabhal said:

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    One thing that's annoying me this week: people referring to this week as "the long bank holiday weekend".

    No, it isn't: t's the Easter bank holiday weekend.

    It's remarkable that they are almost always the same people who are first out the gates on LGBT+ history month or to applaud the celebration of Ramadan.

    Can't say I've come across people being shy about calling it Easter myself. Is this something concerted or just some general trend?
    Nor me. I think people refer to the long bank holiday weekend because that’s what it means to a lot of us. An extended and welcome 4 days off and the start of our UK string of spring bank holidays that culminate at Whitsun. Time to head to IKEA/B&Q/Garden centre, have a nice leg of lamb on Easter Day and if you’re young enough do a 2 day clubbing marathon.

    I like the Christian bits of Easter too, not because I’m religious (I’m not) but because the biblical texts and the music that accompanies them are pretty epic: cornerstones of our literary universe. Tonight and Good Friday in particular:

    The last supper; Judas kiss; the garden of gethsemane; Pilate washing his hands; let his blood be upon us; Centurions playing dice; crown of thorns; Eloi Eloi lama sabactani; gave up the ghost; the earth rent in twain etc etc. It’s probably the only story in “Western” literature as influential on English language and idiom as Shakespeare.
    Yes, that's all fine, so call it the Easter weekend.

    My objection was to one or two Woke people at work deliberately omitting the word Easter because of equity and diversity bollocks.
    Step back and consider the obvious non-woke reason for calling it a long bank holiday weekend, which is to emphasise how much time you get off work, grouping it with other long bank holiday weekends, all of which are also named individually when you wish to focus on the particular.
    Just leave them to it. This anti-woke stuff does not survive contact with the general public, and if they insist on bringing it up on the doorstep they will deserve all the electoral hammering they get.

    The Conservatives are in a tight doom spin which means that the remaining members, councillors and MPs who are shameless enough to keep campaigning tend to be more and more on the extreme right of the party.

    I think this is now more of an issue than it was for Labour under Corbyn. Consider the latest anti-Khan video. Everyone sensible has left. They desperately need a Ruth Davidson type figure at CCHQ .
    @Casino_Royale is making a valid point but not a new one: progressives are embarrassed by tradition, preferring anything exotic and 'more interesting'; and provocatively renaming traditional religious holidays is a symptom of this. I don't think there are massive political implications but it all gets a bit tiring when their own vision of the future is failing all around them but there is little self reflection or criticism.
    Getting upset about someone calling a long weekend a long weekend is the kind of "snowflake" behaviour that the left is supposed to engage in.

    It's not an "Easter bank holiday weekend", as Casino puts it. For a start, Good Friday is not a bank holiday in England as it is not defined by statute - it is merely a public holiday.

    And England does not explicitly get an additional day off in lieu for Easter Sunday (as we might if Christmas Day fell on a weekend). Therefore, the Sunday does not form part of a "Easter bank holiday weekend" either.

    Therefore, the only part of Casino's "Easter bank holiday weekend" that is a bank holiday in Easter Monday. A single day.

    This is correct from the perspective of the Church of England's liturgical calendar, because Easter only starts on the Sunday. Good Friday is part of Lent, as is 'Easter Eve' - the Saturday.

    Conversely, in Scotland, only Good Friday is a national bank holiday. Some councils, such as Edinburgh, include Easter Monday as a local public holiday.

    To further complicate matters, some Christians, as in the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland, do not celebrate Easter at all. And they are certainly not Woke.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,953

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    One thing that's annoying me this week: people referring to this week as "the long bank holiday weekend".

    No, it isn't: t's the Easter bank holiday weekend.

    It's remarkable that they are almost always the same people who are first out the gates on LGBT+ history month or to applaud the celebration of Ramadan.

    Can't say I've come across people being shy about calling it Easter myself. Is this something concerted or just some general trend?
    Nor me. I think people refer to the long bank holiday weekend because that’s what it means to a lot of us. An extended and welcome 4 days off and the start of our UK string of spring bank holidays that culminate at Whitsun. Time to head to IKEA/B&Q/Garden centre, have a nice leg of lamb on Easter Day and if you’re young enough do a 2 day clubbing marathon.

    I like the Christian bits of Easter too, not because I’m religious (I’m not) but because the biblical texts and the music that accompanies them are pretty epic: cornerstones of our literary universe. Tonight and Good Friday in particular:

    The last supper; Judas kiss; the garden of gethsemane; Pilate washing his hands; let his blood be upon us; Centurions playing dice; crown of thorns; Eloi Eloi lama sabactani; gave up the ghost; the earth rent in twain etc etc. It’s probably the only story in “Western” literature as influential on English language and idiom as Shakespeare.
    Yes, that's all fine, so call it the Easter weekend.

    My objection was to one or two Woke people at work deliberately omitting the word Easter because of equity and diversity bollocks.
    Step back and consider the obvious non-woke reason for calling it a long bank holiday weekend, which is to emphasise how much time you get off work, grouping it with other long bank holiday weekends, all of which are also named individually when you wish to focus on the particular.
    It's the Easter bank holiday weekend. Not a "normal" bank holiday weekend. It'd be like calling Christmas a bank holiday break or a Winterval.

    We all know this. So do you.
    Perhaps you have never worked where people book use their holiday entitlement to maximise consecutive days off. People really do talk about long bank holiday weekends.

    If you want to focus on forgetting Easter, better examples would be schools (in some areas) not breaking up until yesterday, or this Telegraph story about Westminster Council rushing to put together an Easter display in their window after they realised they'd only done Ramadan.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/03/28/westminster-council-celebrates-ramadan-not-easter/ (£££)
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,087
    Eabhal said:

    darkage said:

    Eabhal said:

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    One thing that's annoying me this week: people referring to this week as "the long bank holiday weekend".

    No, it isn't: t's the Easter bank holiday weekend.

    It's remarkable that they are almost always the same people who are first out the gates on LGBT+ history month or to applaud the celebration of Ramadan.

    Can't say I've come across people being shy about calling it Easter myself. Is this something concerted or just some general trend?
    Nor me. I think people refer to the long bank holiday weekend because that’s what it means to a lot of us. An extended and welcome 4 days off and the start of our UK string of spring bank holidays that culminate at Whitsun. Time to head to IKEA/B&Q/Garden centre, have a nice leg of lamb on Easter Day and if you’re young enough do a 2 day clubbing marathon.

    I like the Christian bits of Easter too, not because I’m religious (I’m not) but because the biblical texts and the music that accompanies them are pretty epic: cornerstones of our literary universe. Tonight and Good Friday in particular:

    The last supper; Judas kiss; the garden of gethsemane; Pilate washing his hands; let his blood be upon us; Centurions playing dice; crown of thorns; Eloi Eloi lama sabactani; gave up the ghost; the earth rent in twain etc etc. It’s probably the only story in “Western” literature as influential on English language and idiom as Shakespeare.
    Yes, that's all fine, so call it the Easter weekend.

    My objection was to one or two Woke people at work deliberately omitting the word Easter because of equity and diversity bollocks.
    Step back and consider the obvious non-woke reason for calling it a long bank holiday weekend, which is to emphasise how much time you get off work, grouping it with other long bank holiday weekends, all of which are also named individually when you wish to focus on the particular.
    Just leave them to it. This anti-woke stuff does not survive contact with the general public, and if they insist on bringing it up on the doorstep they will deserve all the electoral hammering they get.

    The Conservatives are in a tight doom spin which means that the remaining members, councillors and MPs who are shameless enough to keep campaigning tend to be more and more on the extreme right of the party.

    I think this is now more of an issue than it was for Labour under Corbyn. Consider the latest anti-Khan video. Everyone sensible has left. They desperately need a Ruth Davidson type figure at CCHQ .
    @Casino_Royale is making a valid point but not a new one: progressives are embarrassed by tradition, preferring anything exotic and 'more interesting'; and provocatively renaming traditional religious holidays is a symptom of this. I don't think there are massive political implications but it all gets a bit tiring when their own vision of the future is failing all around them but there is little self reflection or criticism.
    Getting upset about someone calling a long weekend a long weekend is the kind of "snowflake" behaviour that the left is supposed to engage in.

    It's not an "Easter bank holiday weekend", as Casino puts it. For a start, Good Friday is not a bank holiday in England as it is not defined by statute - it is merely a public holiday.

    And England does not explicitly get an additional day off in lieu for Easter Sunday (as we might if Christmas Day fell on a weekend). Therefore, the Sunday does not form part of a "Easter bank holiday weekend" either.

    Therefore, the only part of Casino's "Easter bank holiday weekend" that is a bank holiday in Easter Monday. A single day.

    This is correct from the perspective of the Church of England's liturgical calendar, because Easter only starts on the Sunday. Good Friday is part of Lent, as is 'Easter Eve' - the Saturday.

    Conversely, in Scotland, only Good Friday is a national bank holiday. Some councils, such as Edinburgh, include Easter Monday as a local public holiday.

    To further complicate matters, some Christians, as in the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland, do not celebrate Easter at all. And they are certainly not Woke.
    A friend of mine had a father who ran a factory in Wigtown in the Fifties. Employees made a point of working on Christmas Day to show they weren't celebrating a pagan festival.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,699
    edited March 29

    darkage said:

    Eabhal said:

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    One thing that's annoying me this week: people referring to this week as "the long bank holiday weekend".

    No, it isn't: t's the Easter bank holiday weekend.

    It's remarkable that they are almost always the same people who are first out the gates on LGBT+ history month or to applaud the celebration of Ramadan.

    Can't say I've come across people being shy about calling it Easter myself. Is this something concerted or just some general trend?
    Nor me. I think people refer to the long bank holiday weekend because that’s what it means to a lot of us. An extended and welcome 4 days off and the start of our UK string of spring bank holidays that culminate at Whitsun. Time to head to IKEA/B&Q/Garden centre, have a nice leg of lamb on Easter Day and if you’re young enough do a 2 day clubbing marathon.

    I like the Christian bits of Easter too, not because I’m religious (I’m not) but because the biblical texts and the music that accompanies them are pretty epic: cornerstones of our literary universe. Tonight and Good Friday in particular:

    The last supper; Judas kiss; the garden of gethsemane; Pilate washing his hands; let his blood be upon us; Centurions playing dice; crown of thorns; Eloi Eloi lama sabactani; gave up the ghost; the earth rent in twain etc etc. It’s probably the only story in “Western” literature as influential on English language and idiom as Shakespeare.
    Yes, that's all fine, so call it the Easter weekend.

    My objection was to one or two Woke people at work deliberately omitting the word Easter because of equity and diversity bollocks.
    Step back and consider the obvious non-woke reason for calling it a long bank holiday weekend, which is to emphasise how much time you get off work, grouping it with other long bank holiday weekends, all of which are also named individually when you wish to focus on the particular.
    Just leave them to it. This anti-woke stuff does not survive contact with the general public, and if they insist on bringing it up on the doorstep they will deserve all the electoral hammering they get.

    The Conservatives are in a tight doom spin which means that the remaining members, councillors and MPs who are shameless enough to keep campaigning tend to be more and more on the extreme right of the party.

    I think this is now more of an issue than it was for Labour under Corbyn. Consider the latest anti-Khan video. Everyone sensible has left. They desperately need a Ruth Davidson type figure at CCHQ .
    @Casino_Royale is making a valid point but not a new one: progressives are embarrassed by tradition, preferring anything exotic and 'more interesting'; and provocatively renaming traditional religious holidays is a symptom of this. I don't think there are massive political implications but it all gets a bit tiring when their own vision of the future is failing all around them but there is little self reflection or criticism.
    Thank you.
    The name in English is believed to derive from the name of the Germanic pagan god of spring, and in most Romance languages from the Jewish Passover. There’s nothing Christian about the name, and little about the actual bank holiday, for most folks. Indeed the festival and holiday itself likely existed in centuries BC. There’s no need to meddle with the name. It would however be handy if someone could fix the date, as having it hop about from year to year is just silly.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,290

    darkage said:

    Eabhal said:

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    One thing that's annoying me this week: people referring to this week as "the long bank holiday weekend".

    No, it isn't: t's the Easter bank holiday weekend.

    It's remarkable that they are almost always the same people who are first out the gates on LGBT+ history month or to applaud the celebration of Ramadan.

    Can't say I've come across people being shy about calling it Easter myself. Is this something concerted or just some general trend?
    Nor me. I think people refer to the long bank holiday weekend because that’s what it means to a lot of us. An extended and welcome 4 days off and the start of our UK string of spring bank holidays that culminate at Whitsun. Time to head to IKEA/B&Q/Garden centre, have a nice leg of lamb on Easter Day and if you’re young enough do a 2 day clubbing marathon.

    I like the Christian bits of Easter too, not because I’m religious (I’m not) but because the biblical texts and the music that accompanies them are pretty epic: cornerstones of our literary universe. Tonight and Good Friday in particular:

    The last supper; Judas kiss; the garden of gethsemane; Pilate washing his hands; let his blood be upon us; Centurions playing dice; crown of thorns; Eloi Eloi lama sabactani; gave up the ghost; the earth rent in twain etc etc. It’s probably the only story in “Western” literature as influential on English language and idiom as Shakespeare.
    Yes, that's all fine, so call it the Easter weekend.

    My objection was to one or two Woke people at work deliberately omitting the word Easter because of equity and diversity bollocks.
    Step back and consider the obvious non-woke reason for calling it a long bank holiday weekend, which is to emphasise how much time you get off work, grouping it with other long bank holiday weekends, all of which are also named individually when you wish to focus on the particular.
    Just leave them to it. This anti-woke stuff does not survive contact with the general public, and if they insist on bringing it up on the doorstep they will deserve all the electoral hammering they get.

    The Conservatives are in a tight doom spin which means that the remaining members, councillors and MPs who are shameless enough to keep campaigning tend to be more and more on the extreme right of the party.

    I think this is now more of an issue than it was for Labour under Corbyn. Consider the latest anti-Khan video. Everyone sensible has left. They desperately need a Ruth Davidson type figure at CCHQ .
    @Casino_Royale is making a valid point but not a new one: progressives are embarrassed by tradition, preferring anything exotic and 'more interesting'; and provocatively renaming traditional religious holidays is a symptom of this. I don't think there are massive political implications but it all gets a bit tiring when their own vision of the future is failing all around them but there is little self reflection or criticism.
    The idea that progressives are renaming traditional religious holidays in the UK is a myth. It’s importing a US thing and looking for the same thing happening over here.
    Indeed. I move in pretty progressive circles and I've never heard anyone try to downplay or rename Easter or Christmas. It's just not a thing.
    Personally, I take part in carols concerts and our street's advent windows every Christmas, despite bring a fully signed up member of the tofu eating wokerati. Why wouldn't I want to celebrate the life of Jesus, who was about as woke as they come? Happy Easter everyone!
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,290
    Sean_F said:

    Eabhal said:

    darkage said:

    Eabhal said:

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    One thing that's annoying me this week: people referring to this week as "the long bank holiday weekend".

    No, it isn't: t's the Easter bank holiday weekend.

    It's remarkable that they are almost always the same people who are first out the gates on LGBT+ history month or to applaud the celebration of Ramadan.

    Can't say I've come across people being shy about calling it Easter myself. Is this something concerted or just some general trend?
    Nor me. I think people refer to the long bank holiday weekend because that’s what it means to a lot of us. An extended and welcome 4 days off and the start of our UK string of spring bank holidays that culminate at Whitsun. Time to head to IKEA/B&Q/Garden centre, have a nice leg of lamb on Easter Day and if you’re young enough do a 2 day clubbing marathon.

    I like the Christian bits of Easter too, not because I’m religious (I’m not) but because the biblical texts and the music that accompanies them are pretty epic: cornerstones of our literary universe. Tonight and Good Friday in particular:

    The last supper; Judas kiss; the garden of gethsemane; Pilate washing his hands; let his blood be upon us; Centurions playing dice; crown of thorns; Eloi Eloi lama sabactani; gave up the ghost; the earth rent in twain etc etc. It’s probably the only story in “Western” literature as influential on English language and idiom as Shakespeare.
    Yes, that's all fine, so call it the Easter weekend.

    My objection was to one or two Woke people at work deliberately omitting the word Easter because of equity and diversity bollocks.
    Step back and consider the obvious non-woke reason for calling it a long bank holiday weekend, which is to emphasise how much time you get off work, grouping it with other long bank holiday weekends, all of which are also named individually when you wish to focus on the particular.
    Just leave them to it. This anti-woke stuff does not survive contact with the general public, and if they insist on bringing it up on the doorstep they will deserve all the electoral hammering they get.

    The Conservatives are in a tight doom spin which means that the remaining members, councillors and MPs who are shameless enough to keep campaigning tend to be more and more on the extreme right of the party.

    I think this is now more of an issue than it was for Labour under Corbyn. Consider the latest anti-Khan video. Everyone sensible has left. They desperately need a Ruth Davidson type figure at CCHQ .
    @Casino_Royale is making a valid point but not a new one: progressives are embarrassed by tradition, preferring anything exotic and 'more interesting'; and provocatively renaming traditional religious holidays is a symptom of this. I don't think there are massive political implications but it all gets a bit tiring when their own vision of the future is failing all around them but there is little self reflection or criticism.
    Getting upset about someone calling a long weekend a long weekend is the kind of "snowflake" behaviour that the left is supposed to engage in.

    It's not an "Easter bank holiday weekend", as Casino puts it. For a start, Good Friday is not a bank holiday in England as it is not defined by statute - it is merely a public holiday.

    And England does not explicitly get an additional day off in lieu for Easter Sunday (as we might if Christmas Day fell on a weekend). Therefore, the Sunday does not form part of a "Easter bank holiday weekend" either.

    Therefore, the only part of Casino's "Easter bank holiday weekend" that is a bank holiday in Easter Monday. A single day.

    This is correct from the perspective of the Church of England's liturgical calendar, because Easter only starts on the Sunday. Good Friday is part of Lent, as is 'Easter Eve' - the Saturday.

    Conversely, in Scotland, only Good Friday is a national bank holiday. Some councils, such as Edinburgh, include Easter Monday as a local public holiday.

    To further complicate matters, some Christians, as in the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland, do not celebrate Easter at all. And they are certainly not Woke.
    A friend of mine had a father who ran a factory in Wigtown in the Fifties. Employees made a point of working on Christmas Day to show they weren't celebrating a pagan festival.
    Did they get double time?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,087

    Sean_F said:

    Eabhal said:

    darkage said:

    Eabhal said:

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    One thing that's annoying me this week: people referring to this week as "the long bank holiday weekend".

    No, it isn't: t's the Easter bank holiday weekend.

    It's remarkable that they are almost always the same people who are first out the gates on LGBT+ history month or to applaud the celebration of Ramadan.

    Can't say I've come across people being shy about calling it Easter myself. Is this something concerted or just some general trend?
    Nor me. I think people refer to the long bank holiday weekend because that’s what it means to a lot of us. An extended and welcome 4 days off and the start of our UK string of spring bank holidays that culminate at Whitsun. Time to head to IKEA/B&Q/Garden centre, have a nice leg of lamb on Easter Day and if you’re young enough do a 2 day clubbing marathon.

    I like the Christian bits of Easter too, not because I’m religious (I’m not) but because the biblical texts and the music that accompanies them are pretty epic: cornerstones of our literary universe. Tonight and Good Friday in particular:

    The last supper; Judas kiss; the garden of gethsemane; Pilate washing his hands; let his blood be upon us; Centurions playing dice; crown of thorns; Eloi Eloi lama sabactani; gave up the ghost; the earth rent in twain etc etc. It’s probably the only story in “Western” literature as influential on English language and idiom as Shakespeare.
    Yes, that's all fine, so call it the Easter weekend.

    My objection was to one or two Woke people at work deliberately omitting the word Easter because of equity and diversity bollocks.
    Step back and consider the obvious non-woke reason for calling it a long bank holiday weekend, which is to emphasise how much time you get off work, grouping it with other long bank holiday weekends, all of which are also named individually when you wish to focus on the particular.
    Just leave them to it. This anti-woke stuff does not survive contact with the general public, and if they insist on bringing it up on the doorstep they will deserve all the electoral hammering they get.

    The Conservatives are in a tight doom spin which means that the remaining members, councillors and MPs who are shameless enough to keep campaigning tend to be more and more on the extreme right of the party.

    I think this is now more of an issue than it was for Labour under Corbyn. Consider the latest anti-Khan video. Everyone sensible has left. They desperately need a Ruth Davidson type figure at CCHQ .
    @Casino_Royale is making a valid point but not a new one: progressives are embarrassed by tradition, preferring anything exotic and 'more interesting'; and provocatively renaming traditional religious holidays is a symptom of this. I don't think there are massive political implications but it all gets a bit tiring when their own vision of the future is failing all around them but there is little self reflection or criticism.
    Getting upset about someone calling a long weekend a long weekend is the kind of "snowflake" behaviour that the left is supposed to engage in.

    It's not an "Easter bank holiday weekend", as Casino puts it. For a start, Good Friday is not a bank holiday in England as it is not defined by statute - it is merely a public holiday.

    And England does not explicitly get an additional day off in lieu for Easter Sunday (as we might if Christmas Day fell on a weekend). Therefore, the Sunday does not form part of a "Easter bank holiday weekend" either.

    Therefore, the only part of Casino's "Easter bank holiday weekend" that is a bank holiday in Easter Monday. A single day.

    This is correct from the perspective of the Church of England's liturgical calendar, because Easter only starts on the Sunday. Good Friday is part of Lent, as is 'Easter Eve' - the Saturday.

    Conversely, in Scotland, only Good Friday is a national bank holiday. Some councils, such as Edinburgh, include Easter Monday as a local public holiday.

    To further complicate matters, some Christians, as in the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland, do not celebrate Easter at all. And they are certainly not Woke.
    A friend of mine had a father who ran a factory in Wigtown in the Fifties. Employees made a point of working on Christmas Day to show they weren't celebrating a pagan festival.
    Did they get double time?
    No. It was all about showing your commitment to Christianity by *not* celebrating Christmas.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,953
    Eabhal said:

    darkage said:

    Eabhal said:

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    One thing that's annoying me this week: people referring to this week as "the long bank holiday weekend".

    No, it isn't: t's the Easter bank holiday weekend.

    It's remarkable that they are almost always the same people who are first out the gates on LGBT+ history month or to applaud the celebration of Ramadan.

    Can't say I've come across people being shy about calling it Easter myself. Is this something concerted or just some general trend?
    Nor me. I think people refer to the long bank holiday weekend because that’s what it means to a lot of us. An extended and welcome 4 days off and the start of our UK string of spring bank holidays that culminate at Whitsun. Time to head to IKEA/B&Q/Garden centre, have a nice leg of lamb on Easter Day and if you’re young enough do a 2 day clubbing marathon.

    I like the Christian bits of Easter too, not because I’m religious (I’m not) but because the biblical texts and the music that accompanies them are pretty epic: cornerstones of our literary universe. Tonight and Good Friday in particular:

    The last supper; Judas kiss; the garden of gethsemane; Pilate washing his hands; let his blood be upon us; Centurions playing dice; crown of thorns; Eloi Eloi lama sabactani; gave up the ghost; the earth rent in twain etc etc. It’s probably the only story in “Western” literature as influential on English language and idiom as Shakespeare.
    Yes, that's all fine, so call it the Easter weekend.

    My objection was to one or two Woke people at work deliberately omitting the word Easter because of equity and diversity bollocks.
    Step back and consider the obvious non-woke reason for calling it a long bank holiday weekend, which is to emphasise how much time you get off work, grouping it with other long bank holiday weekends, all of which are also named individually when you wish to focus on the particular.
    Just leave them to it. This anti-woke stuff does not survive contact with the general public, and if they insist on bringing it up on the doorstep they will deserve all the electoral hammering they get.

    The Conservatives are in a tight doom spin which means that the remaining members, councillors and MPs who are shameless enough to keep campaigning tend to be more and more on the extreme right of the party.

    I think this is now more of an issue than it was for Labour under Corbyn. Consider the latest anti-Khan video. Everyone sensible has left. They desperately need a Ruth Davidson type figure at CCHQ .
    @Casino_Royale is making a valid point but not a new one: progressives are embarrassed by tradition, preferring anything exotic and 'more interesting'; and provocatively renaming traditional religious holidays is a symptom of this. I don't think there are massive political implications but it all gets a bit tiring when their own vision of the future is failing all around them but there is little self reflection or criticism.
    Getting upset about someone calling a long weekend a long weekend is the kind of "snowflake" behaviour that the left is supposed to engage in.

    It's not an "Easter bank holiday weekend", as Casino puts it. For a start, Good Friday is not a bank holiday in England as it is not defined by statute - it is merely a public holiday.

    And England does not explicitly get an additional day off in lieu for Easter Sunday (as we might if Christmas Day fell on a weekend). Therefore, the Sunday does not form part of a "Easter bank holiday weekend" either.

    Therefore, the only part of Casino's "Easter bank holiday weekend" that is a bank holiday in Easter Monday. A single day.

    This is correct from the perspective of the Church of England's liturgical calendar, because Easter only starts on the Sunday. Good Friday is part of Lent, as is 'Easter Eve' - the Saturday.

    Conversely, in Scotland, only Good Friday is a national bank holiday. Some councils, such as Edinburgh, include Easter Monday as a local public holiday.

    To further complicate matters, some Christians, as in the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland, do not celebrate Easter at all. And they are certainly not Woke.
    We were caught out by Easter Day not being a bank holiday when the people negotiating our holiday payments did not realise their shiny new agreement treated it as just another Sunday.
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 6,268
    edited March 29

    darkage said:

    Eabhal said:

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    One thing that's annoying me this week: people referring to this week as "the long bank holiday weekend".

    No, it isn't: t's the Easter bank holiday weekend.

    It's remarkable that they are almost always the same people who are first out the gates on LGBT+ history month or to applaud the celebration of Ramadan.

    Can't say I've come across people being shy about calling it Easter myself. Is this something concerted or just some general trend?
    Nor me. I think people refer to the long bank holiday weekend because that’s what it means to a lot of us. An extended and welcome 4 days off and the start of our UK string of spring bank holidays that culminate at Whitsun. Time to head to IKEA/B&Q/Garden centre, have a nice leg of lamb on Easter Day and if you’re young enough do a 2 day clubbing marathon.

    I like the Christian bits of Easter too, not because I’m religious (I’m not) but because the biblical texts and the music that accompanies them are pretty epic: cornerstones of our literary universe. Tonight and Good Friday in particular:

    The last supper; Judas kiss; the garden of gethsemane; Pilate washing his hands; let his blood be upon us; Centurions playing dice; crown of thorns; Eloi Eloi lama sabactani; gave up the ghost; the earth rent in twain etc etc. It’s probably the only story in “Western” literature as influential on English language and idiom as Shakespeare.
    Yes, that's all fine, so call it the Easter weekend.

    My objection was to one or two Woke people at work deliberately omitting the word Easter because of equity and diversity bollocks.
    Step back and consider the obvious non-woke reason for calling it a long bank holiday weekend, which is to emphasise how much time you get off work, grouping it with other long bank holiday weekends, all of which are also named individually when you wish to focus on the particular.
    Just leave them to it. This anti-woke stuff does not survive contact with the general public, and if they insist on bringing it up on the doorstep they will deserve all the electoral hammering they get.

    The Conservatives are in a tight doom spin which means that the remaining members, councillors and MPs who are shameless enough to keep campaigning tend to be more and more on the extreme right of the party.

    I think this is now more of an issue than it was for Labour under Corbyn. Consider the latest anti-Khan video. Everyone sensible has left. They desperately need a Ruth Davidson type figure at CCHQ .
    @Casino_Royale is making a valid point but not a new one: progressives are embarrassed by tradition, preferring anything exotic and 'more interesting'; and provocatively renaming traditional religious holidays is a symptom of this. I don't think there are massive political implications but it all gets a bit tiring when their own vision of the future is failing all around them but there is little self reflection or criticism.
    The idea that progressives are renaming traditional religious holidays in the UK is a myth. It’s importing a US thing and looking for the same thing happening over here.
    Indeed. I move in pretty progressive circles and I've never heard anyone try to downplay or rename Easter or Christmas. It's just not a thing.
    Personally, I take part in carols concerts and our street's advent windows every Christmas, despite bring a fully signed up member of the tofu eating wokerati. Why wouldn't I want to celebrate the life of Jesus, who was about as woke as they come? Happy Easter everyone!
    It is among the dark practices of heathen worship that we find the basis of Easter.

    You may only observe the Sabbath, and your primary task is to tie up the swings and dismantle the goalposts. And campaign against Calmac's sailings.

  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,222

    darkage said:

    Eabhal said:

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    One thing that's annoying me this week: people referring to this week as "the long bank holiday weekend".

    No, it isn't: t's the Easter bank holiday weekend.

    It's remarkable that they are almost always the same people who are first out the gates on LGBT+ history month or to applaud the celebration of Ramadan.

    Can't say I've come across people being shy about calling it Easter myself. Is this something concerted or just some general trend?
    Nor me. I think people refer to the long bank holiday weekend because that’s what it means to a lot of us. An extended and welcome 4 days off and the start of our UK string of spring bank holidays that culminate at Whitsun. Time to head to IKEA/B&Q/Garden centre, have a nice leg of lamb on Easter Day and if you’re young enough do a 2 day clubbing marathon.

    I like the Christian bits of Easter too, not because I’m religious (I’m not) but because the biblical texts and the music that accompanies them are pretty epic: cornerstones of our literary universe. Tonight and Good Friday in particular:

    The last supper; Judas kiss; the garden of gethsemane; Pilate washing his hands; let his blood be upon us; Centurions playing dice; crown of thorns; Eloi Eloi lama sabactani; gave up the ghost; the earth rent in twain etc etc. It’s probably the only story in “Western” literature as influential on English language and idiom as Shakespeare.
    Yes, that's all fine, so call it the Easter weekend.

    My objection was to one or two Woke people at work deliberately omitting the word Easter because of equity and diversity bollocks.
    Step back and consider the obvious non-woke reason for calling it a long bank holiday weekend, which is to emphasise how much time you get off work, grouping it with other long bank holiday weekends, all of which are also named individually when you wish to focus on the particular.
    Just leave them to it. This anti-woke stuff does not survive contact with the general public, and if they insist on bringing it up on the doorstep they will deserve all the electoral hammering they get.

    The Conservatives are in a tight doom spin which means that the remaining members, councillors and MPs who are shameless enough to keep campaigning tend to be more and more on the extreme right of the party.

    I think this is now more of an issue than it was for Labour under Corbyn. Consider the latest anti-Khan video. Everyone sensible has left. They desperately need a Ruth Davidson type figure at CCHQ .
    @Casino_Royale is making a valid point but not a new one: progressives are embarrassed by tradition, preferring anything exotic and 'more interesting'; and provocatively renaming traditional religious holidays is a symptom of this. I don't think there are massive political implications but it all gets a bit tiring when their own vision of the future is failing all around them but there is little self reflection or criticism.
    The idea that progressives are renaming traditional religious holidays in the UK is a myth. It’s importing a US thing and looking for the same thing happening over here.
    Indeed. I move in pretty progressive circles and I've never heard anyone try to downplay or rename Easter or Christmas. It's just not a thing.
    Personally, I take part in carols concerts and our street's advent windows every Christmas, despite bring a fully signed up member of the tofu eating wokerati. Why wouldn't I want to celebrate the life of Jesus, who was about as woke as they come? Happy Easter everyone!
    How to read a sensible post on the subject! I’m no longer religious, but these festivals are traditional ones, which enable us to celebrate one of the good guys!

    Have a good day, everyone!
This discussion has been closed.