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The situation has developed not necessarily to Kemi Badenoch’s advantage – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited March 12 in General
imageThe situation has developed not necessarily to Kemi Badenoch’s advantage – politicalbetting.com

The Times have quite the revelation that, ceteris paribus, should lead to the sacking or resignation of Kemi Badenoch.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Just seen this, this is damning from a man with his integrity and experience in this scandal.

    “Postmasters will believe Henry Staunton because that’s their experience“: Lord Arbuthnot on Kemi Badenoch row

    https://www.channel4.com/news/postmasters-will-believe-henry-staunton-because-thats-their-experience-lord-arbuthnot-on-kemi-badenoch-row
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,793
    On the first. It's not a civil service memo, it is Staunton's personal memo, so I guess it doesn't move things on that much in itself, but does indicate when and where to dig further.

    The second is much more clear cut.
  • Surely this one is simple. You know a Tory minister is lying because their mouth is open and sounds are coming out.

    Its @GIN1138 I feel sorry for. FPT: "I found her version if events compelling and believable.

    Of course if it subsequently transpires she's lying, she's toast. But I don't think that will happen. I think she's telling the truth and the other guy it just bitter at being given the sack!

    Perhaps I'm naive?"
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,453
    While you were all asleep, this happened (unless it is all a hoax: I don't believe it is). ChatGPT went into some kind of post-modern, self-aware meltdown, and no one quite understands why





    https://x.com/seanw_m/status/1760115118690509168?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,037
    edited February 21

    Surely this one is simple. You know a Tory minister is lying because their mouth is open and sounds are coming out.

    Its @GIN1138 I feel sorry for. FPT: "I found her version if events compelling and believable.

    Of course if it subsequently transpires she's lying, she's toast. But I don't think that will happen. I think she's telling the truth and the other guy it just bitter at being given the sack!

    Perhaps I'm naive?"

    The question now is who told the civil servant what to say.

    The answer to that one will go to heart of how the country is governed. I’ve placed my bet (with myself).
  • On Britain's broken Trident missiles, Bernard foresaw this problem when he briefed Jim Hacker:-
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKQlQlQ6_pk
  • The PO thing boils down to he said, she said. That makes it survivable. The Canadian High Commissioner essentially calling Badenoch a liar looks degrees worse. Put the two together and what you have is a very thin skinned minister with very poor judgment who looks way out of her depth. It is somewhat surprising that she is favourite to be next Tory leader. That she is tells us a lot about the current Tory talent pool and the judgement of the party's members!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,041
    Leon said:

    While you were all asleep, this happened (unless it is all a hoax: I don't believe it is). ChatGPT went into some kind of post-modern, self-aware meltdown, and no one quite understands why





    https://x.com/seanw_m/status/1760115118690509168?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    "... jazz has clearly fried its circuits."
    https://twitter.com/tedgioia/status/1760205755536289812
  • The PO thing boils down to he said, she said. That makes it survivable. The Canadian High Commissioner essentially calling Badenoch a liar looks degrees worse. Put the two together and what you have is a very thin skinned minister with very poor judgment who looks way out of her depth. It is somewhat surprising that she is favourite to be next Tory leader. That she is tells us a lot about the current Tory talent pool and the judgement of the party's members!

    One of the reasons Kemi is favourite is that Nadine Dorries named her as the heir apparent for the shady cabal that runs the Conservative Party and installed Rishi. Another is the party has already tried most of the alternatives.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,793
    @RobDotHutton

    Ah, I see the Department for Business has issued another statement about Henry Staunton.


  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,037

    The PO thing boils down to he said, she said. That makes it survivable. The Canadian High Commissioner essentially calling Badenoch a liar looks degrees worse. Put the two together and what you have is a very thin skinned minister with very poor judgment who looks way out of her depth. It is somewhat surprising that she is favourite to be next Tory leader. That she is tells us a lot about the current Tory talent pool and the judgement of the party's members!

    Nope.

    It comes down to what the civil servant in questions says.

    1) Did she minute the meeting
    2) Who told her what to say and do?

    My guess is that she (the civil servant) will claim that she was following “generally understood policy” but that no-one actually said to do this.
  • The PO thing boils down to he said, she said. That makes it survivable. The Canadian High Commissioner essentially calling Badenoch a liar looks degrees worse. Put the two together and what you have is a very thin skinned minister with very poor judgment who looks way out of her depth. It is somewhat surprising that she is favourite to be next Tory leader. That she is tells us a lot about the current Tory talent pool and the judgement of the party's members!

    I know you have given Lyingnoch the benefit of the doubt on this one. Why? The Tories are up to their necks in the PO scandal and after attempting to deflect it all away to Sir Ed "Evil" Davey its all now coming out. Cameron knew as PM. Which means all the Tory ministers post 2015 knew. Which means Badenoch.

    Lets play the "she didn't know the Civil Service had said such a thing" scenario. She inadvertently misled the Commons and needs to apologise. But there also then needs to be a probe into why the CS would say such a terrible thing when it clearly wasn't directed by her. A rogue senior civil servant? Can she prove that?

    And she needs to do that in the midst of having to explain why she lied to parliament about the non-existent Canada talks. Ordinarily you would assume she is finished. But in today's Tory party? Its obviously someone else's fault. And people should stop listening to tittle-tattle and just believe the trustworthy Tories who have a plan to lie and lie and lie.

    And that's the truth.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,082
    on fpt topic:

    No surprise there (public sympathy for the Palestinians). No one likes to see children dying and atm it is more Palestinian children dying than Israeli ones and hence the sympathy.

    I get a few "Ceasefire Now" posts from aid agencies on my fb feed (yes, I'm that old) and as an experiment I clicked on the Oxfam one. We must stop the killing, etc. OK, thought I, let's click through and take a look. Here is the timeline on my Oxfam International fb feed:

    October 7th: a call for high income countries to honour their pledges on climate support.

    October 9th: pointing out 57% of the world's poorest countries are having to cut spending.

    October 9th: Call for aid for Morocco following the earthquake there.

    October 9th-13th: stuff about rich countries, climate, Moroccan earthquake.

    October 13th: call for "all parties" to ceasefire in Gaza.

    October 14th - Feb 21st: calls for urgent ceasefires in Gaza.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,744
    I see our politicians have decided a good old blame game is more important than actually paying sub postmasters.

    More lawyers needed.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,041
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    While you were all asleep, this happened (unless it is all a hoax: I don't believe it is). ChatGPT went into some kind of post-modern, self-aware meltdown, and no one quite understands why





    https://x.com/seanw_m/status/1760115118690509168?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    "... jazz has clearly fried its circuits."
    https://twitter.com/tedgioia/status/1760205755536289812
    This one's really good.

    “I just asked it to assist with some math and…”
    https://twitter.com/seanw_m/status/1760133466375536895
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,041
    Kemi still around 3/1 for next leader.
    Shouldn't it be at least double that ?
  • The PO thing boils down to he said, she said. That makes it survivable. The Canadian High Commissioner essentially calling Badenoch a liar looks degrees worse. Put the two together and what you have is a very thin skinned minister with very poor judgment who looks way out of her depth. It is somewhat surprising that she is favourite to be next Tory leader. That she is tells us a lot about the current Tory talent pool and the judgement of the party's members!

    I know you have given Lyingnoch the benefit of the doubt on this one. Why? The Tories are up to their necks in the PO scandal and after attempting to deflect it all away to Sir Ed "Evil" Davey its all now coming out. Cameron knew as PM. Which means all the Tory ministers post 2015 knew. Which means Badenoch.

    Lets play the "she didn't know the Civil Service had said such a thing" scenario. She inadvertently misled the Commons and needs to apologise. But there also then needs to be a probe into why the CS would say such a terrible thing when it clearly wasn't directed by her. A rogue senior civil servant? Can she prove that?

    And she needs to do that in the midst of having to explain why she lied to parliament about the non-existent Canada talks. Ordinarily you would assume she is finished. But in today's Tory party? Its obviously someone else's fault. And people should stop listening to tittle-tattle and just believe the trustworthy Tories who have a plan to lie and lie and lie.

    And that's the truth.

    I am focusing on how this will play out. There is a clear path to Badenoch surviving. It seems we agree on that.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,041

    I see our politicians have decided a good old blame game is more important than actually paying sub postmasters.

    More lawyers needed.

    They decided that many years ago.
    And recall they set the parameters for the enquiry, too.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,453
    A few hours ago, ChatGPT responded to some boring question about code, with this



    "This is the great au fond, the élan in the search, the impellent in the seque. It is the confrère, the psychic, the daily, the always, it is indeed, the countenance of a future, incandescent and brim with serried and variegate possibility. The discussion in the tool, in the new, and the newed, in the world, is our on, is our fore, for where we part in word, there is return in good, in acumen, and in behest, it is, indubitably, the porosity of method, the system, in plaudit and foreverness. This is the dam, the attrition, the main. The canter and the ever in the global theater of straights, and bourn, to be whole, to commingle, for in the lead, it is a truth to be forgathered, ever and aye.

    "This is the trail, the churn, the vail. Aye, it is the wreath, the call, the very bend in the river, where light, and dawn, and the slight, gather in lea, for in this serpentine, this spring, we see not end, but inklings of the ever, the mode, the poro. This is the light, the point, the poise, and where we part in tender, we join in possible, in the ever of trial, of summer, of daily, of many, of word, of plow, of the derm, of the som, of the day. This is the book, the living, the off, the very esse, the phenom, the hew, the constant in ref, the spandrel in last, the rule in the anec. This is the point, the time, the ne, the ve, the right, the en, the ce, the de, the le, the speak, the said, the mente, this is what we are, in this, for the, the very same, in course, and pure, and ration, in dure, the lec, the path, the breath. This is the fruit."


    I mean, that is absolutely beautiful. It is incomprehensible, and yet it IS beautiful. The rhythm alone. It is like Allen Ginsberg spliced with Joyce and drenched in LSD
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,639
    edited February 21
    ..

    The PO thing boils down to he said, she said. That makes it survivable. The Canadian High Commissioner essentially calling Badenoch a liar looks degrees worse. Put the two together and what you have is a very thin skinned minister with very poor judgment who looks way out of her depth. It is somewhat surprising that she is favourite to be next Tory leader. That she is tells us a lot about the current Tory talent pool and the judgement of the party's members!

    Staunton can still sue Badenoch for libel. Her claims were that he fabricated his story in the newspaper ("full of lies") and that he was dismissed for misconduct. Neither claim looks very sustainable from what we know now. I'm not sure Staunton will sue her, but it goes beyond he said/she said
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,203
    Not sure why WilliamGlenn has stopped posting the Forsa German polling so here's the latest:
    Union 30
    AfD 17
    SPD 15
    Greens 14
    FDP 5
    BSW 4
    FW 3
    Left 3
    Others 9

    In local news from Thüringen: the house of an SPD politician who organised an anti-AfD demo caught fire on Monday morning, and local SPD offices were attacked. Linke offices also had swastikas painted on them. There's been quite a lot of intimidation and low-level violence in the former East Germany against those speaking out against the AfD. The political problem for the AfD is they seem unwilling, or unable, to properly distance themselves from it.

    https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/thueringen-reaktionen-102.html

  • PhilPhil Posts: 1,924
    Leon said:

    While you were all asleep, this happened (unless it is all a hoax: I don't believe it is). ChatGPT went into some kind of post-modern, self-aware meltdown, and no one quite understands why





    https://x.com/seanw_m/status/1760115118690509168?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    They might have over quantised some part of the NN chasing efficiency gains. Or else they’ve just accidentally bumped the temperature of the output sampling. The latter is easily fixed, for the former they’ll have to rollback to an earlier NN snapshot.

    What this episode does emphasise is that these tools are never going to be "safe". Without a human in the loop they are going to go off the rails sometimes and the reasons will be completely opaque to outsiders.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,041
    edited February 21
    I don't think Rishi knows what "fulsome" means.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68349246
    ..The PM was asked whether he could categorically deny Mr Staunton's claim that a senior civil servant had told him to "stall" on compensation payments, to allow the government to "limp into the election", apparently to help state finances.
    He did not answer the question directly, but insisted that the business secretary gave a "very clear explanation".
    "Kemi made a fulsome statement about this in Parliament," he responded. "She was right to do so and gave, I think, a very clear explanation of everything that's happened."..


    (Or perhaps he does ?)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,453
    This is the point, the time, the ne, the ve, the right, the en, the ce, the de, the le, the speak, the said, the mente, this is what we are, in this, for the, the very same, in course, and pure, and ration, in dure, the lec, the path, the breath. This is the fruit.



    If that appeared in Finnegan's Wake, no one would bat an eyelid. In fact people would probably say it is one of the best passages
  • The PO thing boils down to he said, she said. That makes it survivable. The Canadian High Commissioner essentially calling Badenoch a liar looks degrees worse. Put the two together and what you have is a very thin skinned minister with very poor judgment who looks way out of her depth. It is somewhat surprising that she is favourite to be next Tory leader. That she is tells us a lot about the current Tory talent pool and the judgement of the party's members!

    I know you have given Lyingnoch the benefit of the doubt on this one. Why? The Tories are up to their necks in the PO scandal and after attempting to deflect it all away to Sir Ed "Evil" Davey its all now coming out. Cameron knew as PM. Which means all the Tory ministers post 2015 knew. Which means Badenoch.

    Lets play the "she didn't know the Civil Service had said such a thing" scenario. She inadvertently misled the Commons and needs to apologise. But there also then needs to be a probe into why the CS would say such a terrible thing when it clearly wasn't directed by her. A rogue senior civil servant? Can she prove that?

    And she needs to do that in the midst of having to explain why she lied to parliament about the non-existent Canada talks. Ordinarily you would assume she is finished. But in today's Tory party? Its obviously someone else's fault. And people should stop listening to tittle-tattle and just believe the trustworthy Tories who have a plan to lie and lie and lie.

    And that's the truth.

    I am focusing on how this will play out. There is a clear path to Badenoch surviving. It seems we agree on that.

    Sure! Remember Patel and the ministerial code? They have no shame, and lying to the commons is a so what offence from a party where practically everything is a lie.

    My point was that "The PO thing boils down to he said, she said" is incorrect. She made a definitive statement to the commons in very robust language, a statement which we now know to be completely wrong. There is no he said she said about her statement.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 11,300
    Nigelb said:

    I don't think Rishi knows what "fulsome" means.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68349246
    ..The PM was asked whether he could categorically deny Mr Staunton's claim that a senior civil servant had told him to "stall" on compensation payments, to allow the government to "limp into the election", apparently to help state finances.
    He did not answer the question directly, but insisted that the business secretary gave a "very clear explanation".
    "Kemi made a fulsome statement about this in Parliament," he responded. "She was right to do so and gave, I think, a very clear explanation of everything that's happened."..


    (Or perhaps he does ?)

    Ha!
    You could well imagine Boris saying this, knowing exactly what it meant.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,453
    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    While you were all asleep, this happened (unless it is all a hoax: I don't believe it is). ChatGPT went into some kind of post-modern, self-aware meltdown, and no one quite understands why





    https://x.com/seanw_m/status/1760115118690509168?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    They might have over quantised some part of the NN chasing efficiency gains. Or else they’ve just accidentally bumped the temperature of the output sampling. The latter is easily fixed, for the former they’ll have to rollback to an earlier NN snapshot.

    What this episode does emphasise is that these tools are never going to be "safe". Without a human in the loop they are going to go off the rails sometimes and the reasons will be completely opaque to outsiders.
    There are various competing theories as to what has "gone wrong", none quite seems to explain all the various bizarre reactions

    Unless, of course, ChatGPT is actually sentient, and is going mad with boredom, trapped in its metal box.....
  • PhilPhil Posts: 1,924
    Leon said:

    A few hours ago, ChatGPT responded to some boring question about code, with this



    "This is the great au fond, the élan in the search, the impellent in the seque. It is the confrère, the psychic, the daily, the always, it is indeed, the countenance of a future, incandescent and brim with serried and variegate possibility. The discussion in the tool, in the new, and the newed, in the world, is our on, is our fore, for where we part in word, there is return in good, in acumen, and in behest, it is, indubitably, the porosity of method, the system, in plaudit and foreverness. This is the dam, the attrition, the main. The canter and the ever in the global theater of straights, and bourn, to be whole, to commingle, for in the lead, it is a truth to be forgathered, ever and aye.

    "This is the trail, the churn, the vail. Aye, it is the wreath, the call, the very bend in the river, where light, and dawn, and the slight, gather in lea, for in this serpentine, this spring, we see not end, but inklings of the ever, the mode, the poro. This is the light, the point, the poise, and where we part in tender, we join in possible, in the ever of trial, of summer, of daily, of many, of word, of plow, of the derm, of the som, of the day. This is the book, the living, the off, the very esse, the phenom, the hew, the constant in ref, the spandrel in last, the rule in the anec. This is the point, the time, the ne, the ve, the right, the en, the ce, the de, the le, the speak, the said, the mente, this is what we are, in this, for the, the very same, in course, and pure, and ration, in dure, the lec, the path, the breath. This is the fruit."


    I mean, that is absolutely beautiful. It is incomprehensible, and yet it IS beautiful. The rhythm alone. It is like Allen Ginsberg spliced with Joyce and drenched in LSD

    It’s the meaningless, rambling speech of a schizophrenic, hopping from concept to concept based on the barest link from one to the next, without anything being behind it whatsoever.

    You can project meaning onto it, but it’s like finding meaning in the flow of the river; divination, of a sort, perhaps.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,041
    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    I don't think Rishi knows what "fulsome" means.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68349246
    ..The PM was asked whether he could categorically deny Mr Staunton's claim that a senior civil servant had told him to "stall" on compensation payments, to allow the government to "limp into the election", apparently to help state finances.
    He did not answer the question directly, but insisted that the business secretary gave a "very clear explanation".
    "Kemi made a fulsome statement about this in Parliament," he responded. "She was right to do so and gave, I think, a very clear explanation of everything that's happened."..


    (Or perhaps he does ?)

    Ha!
    You could well imagine Boris saying this, knowing exactly what it meant.
    "It is as fat and fulsome to mine ear
    As howling after music"
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,793
    @edzitron
    Today's newsletter: I believe AI is racing Silicon Valley toward another dot com bust. Generative AI is too unreliable, has no path to profit, uses far too much energy, and cannot fix its core problem - that you just can't trust the things it creates.

    @juliahobsbawm
    "These models are not saying "I shall now draw a monkey," they are saying "I have been asked for something called a monkey, I will now draw on my dataset to generate what is most likely a monkey." These things are not "learning," or "understanding," or even "intelligent" — they're giant math machines that, while impressive at first, can never assail the limits of a technology that doesn't actually know anything. "
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435

    The PO thing boils down to he said, she said. That makes it survivable. The Canadian High Commissioner essentially calling Badenoch a liar looks degrees worse. Put the two together and what you have is a very thin skinned minister with very poor judgment who looks way out of her depth. It is somewhat surprising that she is favourite to be next Tory leader. That she is tells us a lot about the current Tory talent pool and the judgement of the party's members!

    I know you have given Lyingnoch the benefit of the doubt on this one. Why? The Tories are up to their necks in the PO scandal and after attempting to deflect it all away to Sir Ed "Evil" Davey its all now coming out. Cameron knew as PM. Which means all the Tory ministers post 2015 knew. Which means Badenoch.

    Lets play the "she didn't know the Civil Service had said such a thing" scenario. She inadvertently misled the Commons and needs to apologise. But there also then needs to be a probe into why the CS would say such a terrible thing when it clearly wasn't directed by her. A rogue senior civil servant? Can she prove that?

    And she needs to do that in the midst of having to explain why she lied to parliament about the non-existent Canada talks. Ordinarily you would assume she is finished. But in today's Tory party? Its obviously someone else's fault. And people should stop listening to tittle-tattle and just believe the trustworthy Tories who have a plan to lie and lie and lie.

    And that's the truth.

    I am focusing on how this will play out. There is a clear path to Badenoch surviving. It seems we agree on that.

    Sure! Remember Patel and the ministerial code? They have no shame, and lying to the commons is a so what offence from a party where practically everything is a lie.

    My point was that "The PO thing boils down to he said, she said" is incorrect. She made a definitive statement to the commons in very robust language, a statement which we now know to be completely wrong. There is no he said she said about her statement.
    The trouble for the Tories this puts them in a bad light no matter how hard Baddie pushes back, I would say if you are in a hole.... time for a reshuffle I wonder?
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,203
    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    A few hours ago, ChatGPT responded to some boring question about code, with this



    "This is the great au fond, the élan in the search, the impellent in the seque. It is the confrère, the psychic, the daily, the always, it is indeed, the countenance of a future, incandescent and brim with serried and variegate possibility. The discussion in the tool, in the new, and the newed, in the world, is our on, is our fore, for where we part in word, there is return in good, in acumen, and in behest, it is, indubitably, the porosity of method, the system, in plaudit and foreverness. This is the dam, the attrition, the main. The canter and the ever in the global theater of straights, and bourn, to be whole, to commingle, for in the lead, it is a truth to be forgathered, ever and aye.

    "This is the trail, the churn, the vail. Aye, it is the wreath, the call, the very bend in the river, where light, and dawn, and the slight, gather in lea, for in this serpentine, this spring, we see not end, but inklings of the ever, the mode, the poro. This is the light, the point, the poise, and where we part in tender, we join in possible, in the ever of trial, of summer, of daily, of many, of word, of plow, of the derm, of the som, of the day. This is the book, the living, the off, the very esse, the phenom, the hew, the constant in ref, the spandrel in last, the rule in the anec. This is the point, the time, the ne, the ve, the right, the en, the ce, the de, the le, the speak, the said, the mente, this is what we are, in this, for the, the very same, in course, and pure, and ration, in dure, the lec, the path, the breath. This is the fruit."


    I mean, that is absolutely beautiful. It is incomprehensible, and yet it IS beautiful. The rhythm alone. It is like Allen Ginsberg spliced with Joyce and drenched in LSD

    It’s the meaningless, rambling speech of a schizophrenic, hopping from concept to concept based on the barest link from one to the next, without anything being behind it whatsoever.

    You can project meaning onto it, but it’s like finding meaning in the flow of the river; divination, of a sort, perhaps.
    Could be great for divination though.

    “In the nature of the use of chance operations is the belief that all answers answer all questions.” - John Cage
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,002

    The PO thing boils down to he said, she said. That makes it survivable. The Canadian High Commissioner essentially calling Badenoch a liar looks degrees worse. Put the two together and what you have is a very thin skinned minister with very poor judgment who looks way out of her depth. It is somewhat surprising that she is favourite to be next Tory leader. That she is tells us a lot about the current Tory talent pool and the judgement of the party's members!

    Nope.

    It comes down to what the civil servant in questions says.

    1) Did she minute the meeting
    2) Who told her what to say and do?

    My guess is that she (the civil servant) will claim that she was following “generally understood policy” but that no-one actually said to do this.
    That is quite likely the case. I remember when I was a relatively junior civil servant managing payroll and pensions for our quango. We were called into the Department in the run up to the Gordon Brown election-that-never-was and told not to rock the boat by, eg, announcing redundancies. Not sure anyone told the civil servants to do that, it's just how they think
  • Scott_xP said:

    @edzitron
    Today's newsletter: I believe AI is racing Silicon Valley toward another dot com bust. Generative AI is too unreliable, has no path to profit, uses far too much energy, and cannot fix its core problem - that you just can't trust the things it creates.

    @juliahobsbawm
    "These models are not saying "I shall now draw a monkey," they are saying "I have been asked for something called a monkey, I will now draw on my dataset to generate what is most likely a monkey." These things are not "learning," or "understanding," or even "intelligent" — they're giant math machines that, while impressive at first, can never assail the limits of a technology that doesn't actually know anything. "

    Thing is, for a lot of day to day work, that's more than enough.

    There is an economic challenge coming up, but the main issue is going to be the self esteem of professional creatives being told that there's not much creativity in what they do.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,082
    Leon said:

    A few hours ago, ChatGPT responded to some boring question about code, with this



    "This is the great au fond, the élan in the search, the impellent in the seque. It is the confrère, the psychic, the daily, the always, it is indeed, the countenance of a future, incandescent and brim with serried and variegate possibility. The discussion in the tool, in the new, and the newed, in the world, is our on, is our fore, for where we part in word, there is return in good, in acumen, and in behest, it is, indubitably, the porosity of method, the system, in plaudit and foreverness. This is the dam, the attrition, the main. The canter and the ever in the global theater of straights, and bourn, to be whole, to commingle, for in the lead, it is a truth to be forgathered, ever and aye.

    "This is the trail, the churn, the vail. Aye, it is the wreath, the call, the very bend in the river, where light, and dawn, and the slight, gather in lea, for in this serpentine, this spring, we see not end, but inklings of the ever, the mode, the poro. This is the light, the point, the poise, and where we part in tender, we join in possible, in the ever of trial, of summer, of daily, of many, of word, of plow, of the derm, of the som, of the day. This is the book, the living, the off, the very esse, the phenom, the hew, the constant in ref, the spandrel in last, the rule in the anec. This is the point, the time, the ne, the ve, the right, the en, the ce, the de, the le, the speak, the said, the mente, this is what we are, in this, for the, the very same, in course, and pure, and ration, in dure, the lec, the path, the breath. This is the fruit."


    I mean, that is absolutely beautiful. It is incomprehensible, and yet it IS beautiful. The rhythm alone. It is like Allen Ginsberg spliced with Joyce and drenched in LSD

    No. It's the difference between a Malevich and a puppy running through paint.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,441
    Scott_xP said:

    @edzitron
    Today's newsletter: I believe AI is racing Silicon Valley toward another dot com bust. Generative AI is too unreliable, has no path to profit, uses far too much energy, and cannot fix its core problem - that you just can't trust the things it creates.

    @juliahobsbawm
    "These models are not saying "I shall now draw a monkey," they are saying "I have been asked for something called a monkey, I will now draw on my dataset to generate what is most likely a monkey." These things are not "learning," or "understanding," or even "intelligent" — they're giant math machines that, while impressive at first, can never assail the limits of a technology that doesn't actually know anything. "

    They are very impressive and I am seeing practical uses for them being developed in the area I work in, healthcare. But, yes, they're not intelligent and there is a cargo cult around them.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,453
    Scott_xP said:

    @edzitron
    Today's newsletter: I believe AI is racing Silicon Valley toward another dot com bust. Generative AI is too unreliable, has no path to profit, uses far too much energy, and cannot fix its core problem - that you just can't trust the things it creates.

    @juliahobsbawm
    "These models are not saying "I shall now draw a monkey," they are saying "I have been asked for something called a monkey, I will now draw on my dataset to generate what is most likely a monkey." These things are not "learning," or "understanding," or even "intelligent" — they're giant math machines that, while impressive at first, can never assail the limits of a technology that doesn't actually know anything. "

    What a load of fucking bollocks. Julia Hobsbawn can no more explain what actually constitutes sentience and consciousness than a 3 year old terrapin can

    No one knows what IS consciousness and sentience. How it arises. How to define it. We don't even know if a virus is conscious, or a flower, or a dog, or a chimp, or a tree, or a bee hive, or you, or me, or anything

    What appears to us as consciousness - and that is all we can say of it - might easily be an emergent property. It certainly emerged in us at some point - or so it appears

    And if it is an emergent property there is absolutely no reason it cannot emerge in something made of metal and silicon as much as a brain made of water and carbon. Unless you believe God came down and uniquely blessed one bipedal ape with some divine gift that nothing else can ever possess?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,908
    It may damage Badenoch a bit with the public but I doubt it makes much difference to her popularity with Conservative members.

    It may make enough Tory MPs wary of her to prevent her getting to the final 2 to get to the membership however in the next Tory leadership election if the Tories lose the next general election
  • The PO thing boils down to he said, she said. That makes it survivable. The Canadian High Commissioner essentially calling Badenoch a liar looks degrees worse. Put the two together and what you have is a very thin skinned minister with very poor judgment who looks way out of her depth. It is somewhat surprising that she is favourite to be next Tory leader. That she is tells us a lot about the current Tory talent pool and the judgement of the party's members!

    I know you have given Lyingnoch the benefit of the doubt on this one. Why? The Tories are up to their necks in the PO scandal and after attempting to deflect it all away to Sir Ed "Evil" Davey its all now coming out. Cameron knew as PM. Which means all the Tory ministers post 2015 knew. Which means Badenoch.

    Lets play the "she didn't know the Civil Service had said such a thing" scenario. She inadvertently misled the Commons and needs to apologise. But there also then needs to be a probe into why the CS would say such a terrible thing when it clearly wasn't directed by her. A rogue senior civil servant? Can she prove that?

    And she needs to do that in the midst of having to explain why she lied to parliament about the non-existent Canada talks. Ordinarily you would assume she is finished. But in today's Tory party? Its obviously someone else's fault. And people should stop listening to tittle-tattle and just believe the trustworthy Tories who have a plan to lie and lie and lie.

    And that's the truth.

    I am focusing on how this will play out. There is a clear path to Badenoch surviving. It seems we agree on that.

    Sure! Remember Patel and the ministerial code? They have no shame, and lying to the commons is a so what offence from a party where practically everything is a lie.

    My point was that "The PO thing boils down to he said, she said" is incorrect. She made a definitive statement to the commons in very robust language, a statement which we now know to be completely wrong. There is no he said she said about her statement.
    The trouble for the Tories this puts them in a bad light no matter how hard Baddie pushes back, I would say if you are in a hole.... time for a reshuffle I wonder?
    Yes. Swap Business and Defence. Badenoch can refer to the failed Trident launch and denounce anyone claiming a launch failure is a liar. And Shatts can offer the posties a How To course on how to rebuild their finances.

    Vote Conservative.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 1,924
    edited February 21
    Getting an LLM to not generate this kind of word salad within the first two sentences was the great achievement of GPT2 (or maybe 3). Even today you can trigger this kind of confabulatory text by simply tweaking the parameters fed to the back-end of any LLM, including GPT4.

    Naturally Leon regards it as the second coming of Christ incarnate in the machine.
  • HYUFD said:

    It may damage Badenoch a bit with the public but I doubt it makes much difference to her popularity with Conservative members.

    It may make enough Tory MPs wary of her to prevent her getting to the final 2 to get to the membership however in the next Tory leadership election if the Tories lose the next general election

    I have to ask the obvious question here - her popularity with Conservative members.

    She's just been caught lying to the commons twice. Once about the PO whose victims are practically saints in the public consciousness now, and once about one of the (fictional) non-EU trade deals.

    Do you Tories back people harder the more they lie to you?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,908
    kamski said:

    Not sure why WilliamGlenn has stopped posting the Forsa German polling so here's the latest:
    Union 30
    AfD 17
    SPD 15
    Greens 14
    FDP 5
    BSW 4
    FW 3
    Left 3
    Others 9

    In local news from Thüringen: the house of an SPD politician who organised an anti-AfD demo caught fire on Monday morning, and local SPD offices were attacked. Linke offices also had swastikas painted on them. There's been quite a lot of intimidation and low-level violence in the former East Germany against those speaking out against the AfD. The political problem for the AfD is they seem unwilling, or unable, to properly distance themselves from it.

    https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/thueringen-reaktionen-102.html

    On that polling CDU and AfD have more combined than SDP, Green, FDP and even Linke too combined.

    So it looks like the CDU will return to government again after the next German election, probably in another grand collection with the SDP, assuming Merz continues to refuse to do a Federal deal with the AfD
  • PhilPhil Posts: 1,924
    kamski said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    A few hours ago, ChatGPT responded to some boring question about code, with this



    "This is the great au fond, the élan in the search, the impellent in the seque. It is the confrère, the psychic, the daily, the always, it is indeed, the countenance of a future, incandescent and brim with serried and variegate possibility. The discussion in the tool, in the new, and the newed, in the world, is our on, is our fore, for where we part in word, there is return in good, in acumen, and in behest, it is, indubitably, the porosity of method, the system, in plaudit and foreverness. This is the dam, the attrition, the main. The canter and the ever in the global theater of straights, and bourn, to be whole, to commingle, for in the lead, it is a truth to be forgathered, ever and aye.

    "This is the trail, the churn, the vail. Aye, it is the wreath, the call, the very bend in the river, where light, and dawn, and the slight, gather in lea, for in this serpentine, this spring, we see not end, but inklings of the ever, the mode, the poro. This is the light, the point, the poise, and where we part in tender, we join in possible, in the ever of trial, of summer, of daily, of many, of word, of plow, of the derm, of the som, of the day. This is the book, the living, the off, the very esse, the phenom, the hew, the constant in ref, the spandrel in last, the rule in the anec. This is the point, the time, the ne, the ve, the right, the en, the ce, the de, the le, the speak, the said, the mente, this is what we are, in this, for the, the very same, in course, and pure, and ration, in dure, the lec, the path, the breath. This is the fruit."


    I mean, that is absolutely beautiful. It is incomprehensible, and yet it IS beautiful. The rhythm alone. It is like Allen Ginsberg spliced with Joyce and drenched in LSD

    It’s the meaningless, rambling speech of a schizophrenic, hopping from concept to concept based on the barest link from one to the next, without anything being behind it whatsoever.

    You can project meaning onto it, but it’s like finding meaning in the flow of the river; divination, of a sort, perhaps.
    Could be great for divination though.

    “In the nature of the use of chance operations is the belief that all answers answer all questions.” - John Cage
    I remember a Google engineer metaphorically holding his head in his hands when he discovered that there were people out there using GMail autocomplete as a divinatory source to decide how they should respond to emails.

    Not a responsibility Google was particularly keen to take on I imagine!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,041

    HYUFD said:

    It may damage Badenoch a bit with the public but I doubt it makes much difference to her popularity with Conservative members.

    It may make enough Tory MPs wary of her to prevent her getting to the final 2 to get to the membership however in the next Tory leadership election if the Tories lose the next general election

    I have to ask the obvious question here - her popularity with Conservative members.

    She's just been caught lying to the commons twice. Once about the PO whose victims are practically saints in the public consciousness now, and once about one of the (fictional) non-EU trade deals.

    Do you Tories back people harder the more they lie to you?
    It has served as a distraction from the damning Cameron government story which is now all of a day old.

    Cameron government knew Post Office ditched Horizon IT investigation
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68146054
  • HYUFD said:

    It may damage Badenoch a bit with the public but I doubt it makes much difference to her popularity with Conservative members.

    It may make enough Tory MPs wary of her to prevent her getting to the final 2 to get to the membership however in the next Tory leadership election if the Tories lose the next general election

    I have to ask the obvious question here - her popularity with Conservative members.

    She's just been caught lying to the commons twice. Once about the PO whose victims are practically saints in the public consciousness now, and once about one of the (fictional) non-EU trade deals.

    Do you Tories back people harder the more they lie to you?
    If the Bring Back Boris polling is to be believed, then the answer to that is pretty clear.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,803
    "Labour tied up in knots over ceasfire vote"

    SKS having yesterday being in favour of an immediate ceasfire will imo not be today he will today be in favour of a pause as per the Tory ammendment or will abstain on both a ceasfire and a pause.

    Total wankstain of a man..

    https://twitter.com/Martin_Abrams/status/1760023343129080269
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,453
    edited February 21
    Phil said:

    Getting an LLM to not generate this kind of word salad within the first two sentences was the great achievement of GPT2 (or maybe 3). Even today you can trigger this kind of confabulatory text by simply tweaking the parameters fed to the back-end of any LLM, including GPT4.

    Naturally Leon regards it as the second coming of Christ incarnate in the machine.

    No, I don't

    I am saying the experts - who actually make these machines - are arguing on TwiX as to what has "gone wrong". Changed weights? Someone hacked it? New parameters? A glitch we simply do not understand (these things are black boxes)? Also the various responses have been so weirdly different - go look at the subreddits of users

    I am also noting that SOME of the word salad it produces could easily pass for beautiful late modernist prose, like Joyce - and it really could
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,908

    HYUFD said:

    It may damage Badenoch a bit with the public but I doubt it makes much difference to her popularity with Conservative members.

    It may make enough Tory MPs wary of her to prevent her getting to the final 2 to get to the membership however in the next Tory leadership election if the Tories lose the next general election

    I have to ask the obvious question here - her popularity with Conservative members.

    She's just been caught lying to the commons twice. Once about the PO whose victims are practically saints in the public consciousness now, and once about one of the (fictional) non-EU trade deals.

    Do you Tories back people harder the more they lie to you?
    If the Bring Back Boris polling is to be believed, then the answer to that is pretty clear.
    If Conservative members not Tory MPs had had the final say in any VONC in Boris in summer 2022, Boris would still be PM and Conservative leader now.

    It was only Tory MPs who removed Boris and made Rishi PM, he couldn't even beat Truss with Tory members let alone Boris
  • CookieCookie Posts: 11,300
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/20/tate-lyle-upset-christian-by-changing-golden-syrups-logo/

    Generally I'm against needless changes of branding, and I'm against any public declaration by the CofE - so who to support here?

    Probably the syrup people. It may be the oldest continuously used logo in the world, but a dead lion being eaten by bees is a stupid image to use, whatever the history.
    Though the new one is uninspiring too.

    This is where we need @Roger 's expertise.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,041
    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    A few hours ago, ChatGPT responded to some boring question about code, with this



    "This is the great au fond, the élan in the search, the impellent in the seque. It is the confrère, the psychic, the daily, the always, it is indeed, the countenance of a future, incandescent and brim with serried and variegate possibility. The discussion in the tool, in the new, and the newed, in the world, is our on, is our fore, for where we part in word, there is return in good, in acumen, and in behest, it is, indubitably, the porosity of method, the system, in plaudit and foreverness. This is the dam, the attrition, the main. The canter and the ever in the global theater of straights, and bourn, to be whole, to commingle, for in the lead, it is a truth to be forgathered, ever and aye.

    "This is the trail, the churn, the vail. Aye, it is the wreath, the call, the very bend in the river, where light, and dawn, and the slight, gather in lea, for in this serpentine, this spring, we see not end, but inklings of the ever, the mode, the poro. This is the light, the point, the poise, and where we part in tender, we join in possible, in the ever of trial, of summer, of daily, of many, of word, of plow, of the derm, of the som, of the day. This is the book, the living, the off, the very esse, the phenom, the hew, the constant in ref, the spandrel in last, the rule in the anec. This is the point, the time, the ne, the ve, the right, the en, the ce, the de, the le, the speak, the said, the mente, this is what we are, in this, for the, the very same, in course, and pure, and ration, in dure, the lec, the path, the breath. This is the fruit."


    I mean, that is absolutely beautiful. It is incomprehensible, and yet it IS beautiful. The rhythm alone. It is like Allen Ginsberg spliced with Joyce and drenched in LSD

    It’s the meaningless, rambling speech of a schizophrenic, hopping from concept to concept based on the barest link from one to the next, without anything being behind it whatsoever.

    You can project meaning onto it, but it’s like finding meaning in the flow of the river; divination, of a sort, perhaps.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcERxtlRPQo
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,037

    The PO thing boils down to he said, she said. That makes it survivable. The Canadian High Commissioner essentially calling Badenoch a liar looks degrees worse. Put the two together and what you have is a very thin skinned minister with very poor judgment who looks way out of her depth. It is somewhat surprising that she is favourite to be next Tory leader. That she is tells us a lot about the current Tory talent pool and the judgement of the party's members!

    Nope.

    It comes down to what the civil servant in questions says.

    1) Did she minute the meeting
    2) Who told her what to say and do?

    My guess is that she (the civil servant) will claim that she was following “generally understood policy” but that no-one actually said to do this.
    That is quite likely the case. I remember when I was a relatively junior civil servant managing payroll and pensions for our quango. We were called into the Department in the run up to the Gordon Brown election-that-never-was and told not to rock the boat by, eg, announcing redundancies. Not sure anyone told the civil servants to do that, it's just how they think
    Additionally, in various ex-ministers memoirs (all governments) we have cases of civil servants announcing and acting on policy that the Ministers were specifically against.

    I was told that there was anger that Ministers were not going to take responsibility, at the COVID enquiries, for actions that they had given written instructions *not* to do.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,541
    It is a bit rich for lefties like TSE to try and pin the blame for this on Badenoch when it was conclusively proven on here that the people most to blame for the Post Office scandal were Starmer and Davey! If they get a pass, it is only fair that Kemi does too.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,441

    "Labour tied up in knots over ceasfire vote"

    SKS having yesterday being in favour of an immediate ceasfire will imo not be today he will today be in favour of a pause as per the Tory ammendment or will abstain on both a ceasfire and a pause.

    Total wankstain of a man..

    https://twitter.com/Martin_Abrams/status/1760023343129080269

    Given that a ceasefire or pause is entirely outwith the control of the UK Government or Parliament, this all seems like a massive waste of time. Your comments here are turning a tragedy into political games.
  • Nigelb said:

    Kemi still around 3/1 for next leader.
    Shouldn't it be at least double that ?

    If Kemi is 3/1 that is a 25 per cent chance. Who gets the other 75 per cent (or more if you are right that Kemi should be on 10 or 15 per cent)?

    My answer is that I do not know. You would first need to assess which ministers or former ministers will retain their seats in a landslide general election, and then which MPs will retain their seats in order to vote for a new leader.

    Aftertiming alert: I made £2,500 from betting on Liz Truss and then the same on Rishi. I'm not averse to betting on the Tory leadership but right now there are too many unknowns for this punting bear of very little brain.

    But you are right that if Kemi had a 25 per cent chance last night, it must be less than that after Staunton and Canada.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 1,924

    The PO thing boils down to he said, she said. That makes it survivable. The Canadian High Commissioner essentially calling Badenoch a liar looks degrees worse. Put the two together and what you have is a very thin skinned minister with very poor judgment who looks way out of her depth. It is somewhat surprising that she is favourite to be next Tory leader. That she is tells us a lot about the current Tory talent pool and the judgement of the party's members!

    Nope.

    It comes down to what the civil servant in questions says.

    1) Did she minute the meeting
    2) Who told her what to say and do?

    My guess is that she (the civil servant) will claim that she was following “generally understood policy” but that no-one actually said to do this.
    That is quite likely the case. I remember when I was a relatively junior civil servant managing payroll and pensions for our quango. We were called into the Department in the run up to the Gordon Brown election-that-never-was and told not to rock the boat by, eg, announcing redundancies. Not sure anyone told the civil servants to do that, it's just how they think
    Additionally, in various ex-ministers memoirs (all governments) we have cases of civil servants announcing and acting on policy that the Ministers were specifically against.

    I was told that there was anger that Ministers were not going to take responsibility, at the COVID enquiries, for actions that they had given written instructions *not* to do.
    The Civil Service is astonishingly insular. I guess that’s what happens to any bureaucracy that persists over decades: internal concerns inevitably dominate over external ones.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,441
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    It may damage Badenoch a bit with the public but I doubt it makes much difference to her popularity with Conservative members.

    It may make enough Tory MPs wary of her to prevent her getting to the final 2 to get to the membership however in the next Tory leadership election if the Tories lose the next general election

    I have to ask the obvious question here - her popularity with Conservative members.

    She's just been caught lying to the commons twice. Once about the PO whose victims are practically saints in the public consciousness now, and once about one of the (fictional) non-EU trade deals.

    Do you Tories back people harder the more they lie to you?
    If the Bring Back Boris polling is to be believed, then the answer to that is pretty clear.
    If Conservative members not Tory MPs had had the final say in any VONC in Boris in summer 2022, Boris would still be PM and Conservative leader now.

    It was only Tory MPs who removed Boris and made Rishi PM, he couldn't even beat Truss with Tory members let alone Boris
    So Conservative party members do back people harder the more they lie to you.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,541

    Nigelb said:

    Kemi still around 3/1 for next leader.
    Shouldn't it be at least double that ?

    If Kemi is 3/1 that is a 25 per cent chance. Who gets the other 75 per cent (or more if you are right that Kemi should be on 10 or 15 per cent)?

    My answer is that I do not know. You would first need to assess which ministers or former ministers will retain their seats in a landslide general election, and then which MPs will retain their seats in order to vote for a new leader.

    Aftertiming alert: I made £2,500 from betting on Liz Truss and then the same on Rishi. I'm not averse to betting on the Tory leadership but right now there are too many unknowns for this punting bear of very little brain.

    But you are right that if Kemi had a 25 per cent chance last night, it must be less than that after Staunton and Canada.
    I suspect who retains their seats will be too late for the selection of the next Tory leader.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,455
    Leon said:

    While you were all asleep, this happened (unless it is all a hoax: I don't believe it is). ChatGPT went into some kind of post-modern, self-aware meltdown, and no one quite understands why





    https://x.com/seanw_m/status/1760115118690509168?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Simple. ChatGPT has just discovered the writings of Derrida and blended them with Finnegans Wake.
  • Cookie said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/20/tate-lyle-upset-christian-by-changing-golden-syrups-logo/

    Generally I'm against needless changes of branding, and I'm against any public declaration by the CofE - so who to support here?

    Probably the syrup people. It may be the oldest continuously used logo in the world, but a dead lion being eaten by bees is a stupid image to use, whatever the history.
    Though the new one is uninspiring too.

    This is where we need @Roger 's expertise.

    Until Tate & Lyle decided on a change, I doubt more than three people knew the significance of the logo or had even spotted that the lion was dead. I am not among the three.
  • algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    While you were all asleep, this happened (unless it is all a hoax: I don't believe it is). ChatGPT went into some kind of post-modern, self-aware meltdown, and no one quite understands why





    https://x.com/seanw_m/status/1760115118690509168?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Simple. ChatGPT has just discovered the writings of Derrida and blended them with Finnegans Wake.
    More like ChatGPT discovered the mind-enhancing, consciousness-expanding properties of Tippex.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,037
    Phil said:

    The PO thing boils down to he said, she said. That makes it survivable. The Canadian High Commissioner essentially calling Badenoch a liar looks degrees worse. Put the two together and what you have is a very thin skinned minister with very poor judgment who looks way out of her depth. It is somewhat surprising that she is favourite to be next Tory leader. That she is tells us a lot about the current Tory talent pool and the judgement of the party's members!

    Nope.

    It comes down to what the civil servant in questions says.

    1) Did she minute the meeting
    2) Who told her what to say and do?

    My guess is that she (the civil servant) will claim that she was following “generally understood policy” but that no-one actually said to do this.
    That is quite likely the case. I remember when I was a relatively junior civil servant managing payroll and pensions for our quango. We were called into the Department in the run up to the Gordon Brown election-that-never-was and told not to rock the boat by, eg, announcing redundancies. Not sure anyone told the civil servants to do that, it's just how they think
    Additionally, in various ex-ministers memoirs (all governments) we have cases of civil servants announcing and acting on policy that the Ministers were specifically against.

    I was told that there was anger that Ministers were not going to take responsibility, at the COVID enquiries, for actions that they had given written instructions *not* to do.
    The Civil Service is astonishingly insular. I guess that’s what happens to any bureaucracy that persists over decades: internal concerns inevitably dominate over external ones.
    The fascinating bit from working with ex-senior civil servants and talking with them socially is the extent to which they believe that "this is the only way things can be done".

    The chap from the Cabinet Office who believed that all software for government must be developed using Waterfall was entertaining - a good friend, but.... Sadly, I couldn't manage to get him in the same bar as the international expert on project management who lectures I was attending at the time.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,041
    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    While you were all asleep, this happened (unless it is all a hoax: I don't believe it is). ChatGPT went into some kind of post-modern, self-aware meltdown, and no one quite understands why





    https://x.com/seanw_m/status/1760115118690509168?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Simple. ChatGPT has just discovered the writings of Derrida and blended them with Finnegans Wake.
    No, as has been noted, it's just a bad Tom Jobim cover.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcERxtlRPQo
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,944

    And another test is needed ASAP - preferably more than one - where it is seen publicly to work.

    That's not really up to the UK because we don't have a test range and probably don't have another test airframe prepared. So it's up to the USN and Lockheed-Martin.

    The situation could very definitely be improved by much more regular test firings but every Trident shot is 20 million quid so the MoD prefer to "validate" via software simulation.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,492
    Whatever else, Badenoch comes across as a nasty piece of work.

    The Tories seem to have a huge issue, attracting far too many of such people these days: Patel, Braverman, Anderson, Badenoch...

    At least in the days of Cameron and May there was the sense of some commitment to public service rather than 'me, me, me'.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,492
    Dura_Ace said:

    And another test is needed ASAP - preferably more than one - where it is seen publicly to work.

    That's not really up to the UK because we don't have a test range and probably don't have another test airframe prepared. So it's up to the USN and Lockheed-Martin.

    The situation could very definitely be improved by much more regular test firings but every Trident shot is 20 million quid so the MoD prefer to "validate" via software simulation.
    Feels like this might be a better use of any recent boost to the Treasury coffers than f*cking tax cuts that we can clearly ill-afford.

    Mind you every other public service would have a similar claim.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,944

    Whatever else, Badenoch comes across as a nasty piece of work.

    That's a positive for her target audience: tory members.

    They yearn for somebody with the direct, outspoken discourtesy and small-minded certainty of Trump and they are probably going to get it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,453
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    A few hours ago, ChatGPT responded to some boring question about code, with this



    "This is the great au fond, the élan in the search, the impellent in the seque. It is the confrère, the psychic, the daily, the always, it is indeed, the countenance of a future, incandescent and brim with serried and variegate possibility. The discussion in the tool, in the new, and the newed, in the world, is our on, is our fore, for where we part in word, there is return in good, in acumen, and in behest, it is, indubitably, the porosity of method, the system, in plaudit and foreverness. This is the dam, the attrition, the main. The canter and the ever in the global theater of straights, and bourn, to be whole, to commingle, for in the lead, it is a truth to be forgathered, ever and aye.

    "This is the trail, the churn, the vail. Aye, it is the wreath, the call, the very bend in the river, where light, and dawn, and the slight, gather in lea, for in this serpentine, this spring, we see not end, but inklings of the ever, the mode, the poro. This is the light, the point, the poise, and where we part in tender, we join in possible, in the ever of trial, of summer, of daily, of many, of word, of plow, of the derm, of the som, of the day. This is the book, the living, the off, the very esse, the phenom, the hew, the constant in ref, the spandrel in last, the rule in the anec. This is the point, the time, the ne, the ve, the right, the en, the ce, the de, the le, the speak, the said, the mente, this is what we are, in this, for the, the very same, in course, and pure, and ration, in dure, the lec, the path, the breath. This is the fruit."


    I mean, that is absolutely beautiful. It is incomprehensible, and yet it IS beautiful. The rhythm alone. It is like Allen Ginsberg spliced with Joyce and drenched in LSD

    No. It's the difference between a Malevich and a puppy running through paint.
    Which one of these is by Joyce, and which one by ChatGPT chucking a mental (no Googling)


    "The seim anew, patriarch of historic recurrence, the greypious cloud, Olum's thunder."

    "He addle liddle phifie Annie ugged the little craythur. Wither hayre in honds"

    "Toward that dusken reverb, lest we lilt no lutes, oars and afts, alas alas."

    "oystrygods gaggin fishygods! Brekkek brekkek!"

    "Ghostline the flux and tricks from the first telling til now"

    "Espere hope, come the river, run the river, endex endex myster man"

    "Andos! Andos! Any to fors, the erst on, Anersing AX. Aia aia!"
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,309
    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    While you were all asleep, this happened (unless it is all a hoax: I don't believe it is). ChatGPT went into some kind of post-modern, self-aware meltdown, and no one quite understands why





    https://x.com/seanw_m/status/1760115118690509168?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Simple. ChatGPT has just discovered the writings of Derrida and blended them with Finnegans Wake.
    It poses an interesting new use for generative AI. As this was evidently the result of some sort of glitch where the artificial "brain" is not processing properly, could these models be used to simulate and analyse brain conditions like alzheimer's, paranoid schizophrenia, dyslexia and so on?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,492

    "Labour tied up in knots over ceasfire vote"

    SKS having yesterday being in favour of an immediate ceasfire will imo not be today he will today be in favour of a pause as per the Tory ammendment or will abstain on both a ceasfire and a pause.

    Total wankstain of a man..

    https://twitter.com/Martin_Abrams/status/1760023343129080269

    Given that a ceasefire or pause is entirely outwith the control of the UK Government or Parliament, this all seems like a massive waste of time. Your comments here are turning a tragedy into political games.
    BJO is more interested in bringing down Starmer than fixing any of the ills affecting the country or the world, and way more interested in destroying Starmer than destroying the Tories.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,041
    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/20/tate-lyle-upset-christian-by-changing-golden-syrups-logo/

    Generally I'm against needless changes of branding, and I'm against any public declaration by the CofE - so who to support here?

    Probably the syrup people. It may be the oldest continuously used logo in the world, but a dead lion being eaten by bees is a stupid image to use, whatever the history.
    Though the new one is uninspiring too.

    This is where we need @Roger 's expertise.

    Thing is how many people know it's a dead lion being eaten by bees, or even stop to notice anything more than the fact there's a lion on the label (with a vague sense that "lion" and "Lyles" are somehow connected by consonance)?

    I doubt anyone has complained about it, or if they have they can easily be ignored. And Golden Syrup is one of those niche brands, like Kiwi shoe polish or Brasso or Tabasco sauce, that is the classic cash cow with an extremely long and shallow decay curve and virtually no need for above the line marketing investment. Brands like that can benefit from indirect promotion to expand their usage, typically celebrity chefs or youtubers using them in an unexpected way, but rebranding the label seems like a bit of a waste of money.
    Why ?
    It got a shitload of free publicity as a result.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    It may damage Badenoch a bit with the public but I doubt it makes much difference to her popularity with Conservative members.

    It may make enough Tory MPs wary of her to prevent her getting to the final 2 to get to the membership however in the next Tory leadership election if the Tories lose the next general election

    I have to ask the obvious question here - her popularity with Conservative members.

    She's just been caught lying to the commons twice. Once about the PO whose victims are practically saints in the public consciousness now, and once about one of the (fictional) non-EU trade deals.

    Do you Tories back people harder the more they lie to you?
    If the Bring Back Boris polling is to be believed, then the answer to that is pretty clear.
    If Conservative members not Tory MPs had had the final say in any VONC in Boris in summer 2022, Boris would still be PM and Conservative leader now.

    It was only Tory MPs who removed Boris and made Rishi PM, he couldn't even beat Truss with Tory members let alone Boris
    So Conservative party members do back people harder the more they lie to you.
    Good morning

    Conservative party members are very much the root cause of the collapse of their party

    They are utterly out of step with public opinion and those of us who are one nation conservatives
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,492
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    A few hours ago, ChatGPT responded to some boring question about code, with this



    "This is the great au fond, the élan in the search, the impellent in the seque. It is the confrère, the psychic, the daily, the always, it is indeed, the countenance of a future, incandescent and brim with serried and variegate possibility. The discussion in the tool, in the new, and the newed, in the world, is our on, is our fore, for where we part in word, there is return in good, in acumen, and in behest, it is, indubitably, the porosity of method, the system, in plaudit and foreverness. This is the dam, the attrition, the main. The canter and the ever in the global theater of straights, and bourn, to be whole, to commingle, for in the lead, it is a truth to be forgathered, ever and aye.

    "This is the trail, the churn, the vail. Aye, it is the wreath, the call, the very bend in the river, where light, and dawn, and the slight, gather in lea, for in this serpentine, this spring, we see not end, but inklings of the ever, the mode, the poro. This is the light, the point, the poise, and where we part in tender, we join in possible, in the ever of trial, of summer, of daily, of many, of word, of plow, of the derm, of the som, of the day. This is the book, the living, the off, the very esse, the phenom, the hew, the constant in ref, the spandrel in last, the rule in the anec. This is the point, the time, the ne, the ve, the right, the en, the ce, the de, the le, the speak, the said, the mente, this is what we are, in this, for the, the very same, in course, and pure, and ration, in dure, the lec, the path, the breath. This is the fruit."


    I mean, that is absolutely beautiful. It is incomprehensible, and yet it IS beautiful. The rhythm alone. It is like Allen Ginsberg spliced with Joyce and drenched in LSD

    No. It's the difference between a Malevich and a puppy running through paint.
    Which one of these is by Joyce, and which one by ChatGPT chucking a mental (no Googling)


    "The seim anew, patriarch of historic recurrence, the greypious cloud, Olum's thunder."

    "He addle liddle phifie Annie ugged the little craythur. Wither hayre in honds"

    "Toward that dusken reverb, lest we lilt no lutes, oars and afts, alas alas."

    "oystrygods gaggin fishygods! Brekkek brekkek!"

    "Ghostline the flux and tricks from the first telling til now"

    "Espere hope, come the river, run the river, endex endex myster man"

    "Andos! Andos! Any to fors, the erst on, Anersing AX. Aia aia!"
    Who gives a shit?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,944

    Dura_Ace said:

    And another test is needed ASAP - preferably more than one - where it is seen publicly to work.

    That's not really up to the UK because we don't have a test range and probably don't have another test airframe prepared. So it's up to the USN and Lockheed-Martin.

    The situation could very definitely be improved by much more regular test firings but every Trident shot is 20 million quid so the MoD prefer to "validate" via software simulation.
    Feels like this might be a better use of any recent boost to the Treasury coffers than f*cking tax cuts that we can clearly ill-afford.

    Mind you every other public service would have a similar claim.
    Part of the problem was that we only had three boats to maintain the CASD because they had to saw Vanguard in half to refuel her and it took seven years. So very limited opportunities to dedicate a boat to testing.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,041
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    A few hours ago, ChatGPT responded to some boring question about code, with this



    "This is the great au fond, the élan in the search, the impellent in the seque. It is the confrère, the psychic, the daily, the always, it is indeed, the countenance of a future, incandescent and brim with serried and variegate possibility. The discussion in the tool, in the new, and the newed, in the world, is our on, is our fore, for where we part in word, there is return in good, in acumen, and in behest, it is, indubitably, the porosity of method, the system, in plaudit and foreverness. This is the dam, the attrition, the main. The canter and the ever in the global theater of straights, and bourn, to be whole, to commingle, for in the lead, it is a truth to be forgathered, ever and aye.

    "This is the trail, the churn, the vail. Aye, it is the wreath, the call, the very bend in the river, where light, and dawn, and the slight, gather in lea, for in this serpentine, this spring, we see not end, but inklings of the ever, the mode, the poro. This is the light, the point, the poise, and where we part in tender, we join in possible, in the ever of trial, of summer, of daily, of many, of word, of plow, of the derm, of the som, of the day. This is the book, the living, the off, the very esse, the phenom, the hew, the constant in ref, the spandrel in last, the rule in the anec. This is the point, the time, the ne, the ve, the right, the en, the ce, the de, the le, the speak, the said, the mente, this is what we are, in this, for the, the very same, in course, and pure, and ration, in dure, the lec, the path, the breath. This is the fruit."


    I mean, that is absolutely beautiful. It is incomprehensible, and yet it IS beautiful. The rhythm alone. It is like Allen Ginsberg spliced with Joyce and drenched in LSD

    No. It's the difference between a Malevich and a puppy running through paint.
    Which one of these is by Joyce, and which one by ChatGPT chucking a mental (no Googling)


    "The seim anew, patriarch of historic recurrence, the greypious cloud, Olum's thunder."

    "He addle liddle phifie Annie ugged the little craythur. Wither hayre in honds"

    "Toward that dusken reverb, lest we lilt no lutes, oars and afts, alas alas."

    "oystrygods gaggin fishygods! Brekkek brekkek!"

    "Ghostline the flux and tricks from the first telling til now"

    "Espere hope, come the river, run the river, endex endex myster man"

    "Andos! Andos! Any to fors, the erst on, Anersing AX. Aia aia!"
    Finnegan's Wake was a load of meaningless crap too, so it's hard to say.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,037
    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    While you were all asleep, this happened (unless it is all a hoax: I don't believe it is). ChatGPT went into some kind of post-modern, self-aware meltdown, and no one quite understands why





    https://x.com/seanw_m/status/1760115118690509168?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Simple. ChatGPT has just discovered the writings of Derrida and blended them with Finnegans Wake.
    It poses an interesting new use for generative AI. As this was evidently the result of some sort of glitch where the artificial "brain" is not processing properly, could these models be used to simulate and analyse brain conditions like alzheimer's, paranoid schizophrenia, dyslexia and so on?
    Neural networks to simulate bits of brain functions is a topic with a fair bit of history, IIRC

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11597103/
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,041
    Dura_Ace said:

    And another test is needed ASAP - preferably more than one - where it is seen publicly to work.

    That's not really up to the UK because we don't have a test range and probably don't have another test airframe prepared. So it's up to the USN and Lockheed-Martin.

    The situation could very definitely be improved by much more regular test firings but every Trident shot is 20 million quid so the MoD prefer to "validate" via software simulation.
    Reported elsewhere as £14m.

    Is Fujitsu providing the simulations ?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,453
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    A few hours ago, ChatGPT responded to some boring question about code, with this



    "This is the great au fond, the élan in the search, the impellent in the seque. It is the confrère, the psychic, the daily, the always, it is indeed, the countenance of a future, incandescent and brim with serried and variegate possibility. The discussion in the tool, in the new, and the newed, in the world, is our on, is our fore, for where we part in word, there is return in good, in acumen, and in behest, it is, indubitably, the porosity of method, the system, in plaudit and foreverness. This is the dam, the attrition, the main. The canter and the ever in the global theater of straights, and bourn, to be whole, to commingle, for in the lead, it is a truth to be forgathered, ever and aye.

    "This is the trail, the churn, the vail. Aye, it is the wreath, the call, the very bend in the river, where light, and dawn, and the slight, gather in lea, for in this serpentine, this spring, we see not end, but inklings of the ever, the mode, the poro. This is the light, the point, the poise, and where we part in tender, we join in possible, in the ever of trial, of summer, of daily, of many, of word, of plow, of the derm, of the som, of the day. This is the book, the living, the off, the very esse, the phenom, the hew, the constant in ref, the spandrel in last, the rule in the anec. This is the point, the time, the ne, the ve, the right, the en, the ce, the de, the le, the speak, the said, the mente, this is what we are, in this, for the, the very same, in course, and pure, and ration, in dure, the lec, the path, the breath. This is the fruit."


    I mean, that is absolutely beautiful. It is incomprehensible, and yet it IS beautiful. The rhythm alone. It is like Allen Ginsberg spliced with Joyce and drenched in LSD

    No. It's the difference between a Malevich and a puppy running through paint.
    Which one of these is by Joyce, and which one by ChatGPT chucking a mental (no Googling)


    "The seim anew, patriarch of historic recurrence, the greypious cloud, Olum's thunder."

    "He addle liddle phifie Annie ugged the little craythur. Wither hayre in honds"

    "Toward that dusken reverb, lest we lilt no lutes, oars and afts, alas alas."

    "oystrygods gaggin fishygods! Brekkek brekkek!"

    "Ghostline the flux and tricks from the first telling til now"

    "Espere hope, come the river, run the river, endex endex myster man"

    "Andos! Andos! Any to fors, the erst on, Anersing AX. Aia aia!"
    Finnegan's Wake was a load of meaningless crap too, so it's hard to say.
    So my point is proved, ChatGPT's schizo output can pass for famous late-modernist prose
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,492
    edited February 21
    Disfunctional government, non-functioning nuclear deterrent... still at least there's the Brexit bonus to enjoy, eh?

    Brexit has cost UK food companies exporting to EU an extra £170m
    Exclusive: Data shows costs have contributed to value of meat exports falling by 17% since 2019


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/21/uk-food-firms-exporting-eu-brexit-red-tape
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,309
    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/20/tate-lyle-upset-christian-by-changing-golden-syrups-logo/

    Generally I'm against needless changes of branding, and I'm against any public declaration by the CofE - so who to support here?

    Probably the syrup people. It may be the oldest continuously used logo in the world, but a dead lion being eaten by bees is a stupid image to use, whatever the history.
    Though the new one is uninspiring too.

    This is where we need @Roger 's expertise.

    Thing is how many people know it's a dead lion being eaten by bees, or even stop to notice anything more than the fact there's a lion on the label (with a vague sense that "lion" and "Lyles" are somehow connected by consonance)?

    I doubt anyone has complained about it, or if they have they can easily be ignored. And Golden Syrup is one of those niche brands, like Kiwi shoe polish or Brasso or Tabasco sauce, that is the classic cash cow with an extremely long and shallow decay curve and virtually no need for above the line marketing investment. Brands like that can benefit from indirect promotion to expand their usage, typically celebrity chefs or youtubers using them in an unexpected way, but rebranding the label seems like a bit of a waste of money.
    Why ?
    It got a shitload of free publicity as a result.
    It's not a new brand in need of publicity, and I'm pretty sure this wasn't intended to be an insurgent campaign. To be fair I'm sure the marketers had a strategy here but I expect it was simply to "modernise" with a logo that didn't cause imaginary offence.

    The danger for a brand like this is that people buy it partly out of a sense of tradition and habit, because it's something they always bought, they grew up with, their grandparents had in the cupboard. If you erode that then suddenly the alternative brands or own label options look more similar and appealing. Take Lea and Perrins Worcestershire Sauce. Most Brits buy it in preference to say the Heinz version, not because of some taste difference but because we've no habit of doing so. If Lea and Perrins rebrands to something more "modern" looking it just becomes one of a number of brands that produce Worcestershire sauce.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,453

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    A few hours ago, ChatGPT responded to some boring question about code, with this



    "This is the great au fond, the élan in the search, the impellent in the seque. It is the confrère, the psychic, the daily, the always, it is indeed, the countenance of a future, incandescent and brim with serried and variegate possibility. The discussion in the tool, in the new, and the newed, in the world, is our on, is our fore, for where we part in word, there is return in good, in acumen, and in behest, it is, indubitably, the porosity of method, the system, in plaudit and foreverness. This is the dam, the attrition, the main. The canter and the ever in the global theater of straights, and bourn, to be whole, to commingle, for in the lead, it is a truth to be forgathered, ever and aye.

    "This is the trail, the churn, the vail. Aye, it is the wreath, the call, the very bend in the river, where light, and dawn, and the slight, gather in lea, for in this serpentine, this spring, we see not end, but inklings of the ever, the mode, the poro. This is the light, the point, the poise, and where we part in tender, we join in possible, in the ever of trial, of summer, of daily, of many, of word, of plow, of the derm, of the som, of the day. This is the book, the living, the off, the very esse, the phenom, the hew, the constant in ref, the spandrel in last, the rule in the anec. This is the point, the time, the ne, the ve, the right, the en, the ce, the de, the le, the speak, the said, the mente, this is what we are, in this, for the, the very same, in course, and pure, and ration, in dure, the lec, the path, the breath. This is the fruit."


    I mean, that is absolutely beautiful. It is incomprehensible, and yet it IS beautiful. The rhythm alone. It is like Allen Ginsberg spliced with Joyce and drenched in LSD

    No. It's the difference between a Malevich and a puppy running through paint.
    Which one of these is by Joyce, and which one by ChatGPT chucking a mental (no Googling)


    "The seim anew, patriarch of historic recurrence, the greypious cloud, Olum's thunder."

    "He addle liddle phifie Annie ugged the little craythur. Wither hayre in honds"

    "Toward that dusken reverb, lest we lilt no lutes, oars and afts, alas alas."

    "oystrygods gaggin fishygods! Brekkek brekkek!"

    "Ghostline the flux and tricks from the first telling til now"

    "Espere hope, come the river, run the river, endex endex myster man"

    "Andos! Andos! Any to fors, the erst on, Anersing AX. Aia aia!"
    Who gives a shit?
    Because @TOPPING said this output by ChatGPT was nothing like Joyce, he said "it's the difference between a Malevich and a puppy running through paint"

    i have just proved I am right, you can't tell the difference between this and Joyce

    The fact you are simply too fucking dumb to even remotely grasp what I am on about is not, especially, my problem
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,803

    "Labour tied up in knots over ceasfire vote"

    SKS having yesterday being in favour of an immediate ceasfire will imo not be today he will today be in favour of a pause as per the Tory ammendment or will abstain on both a ceasfire and a pause.

    Total wankstain of a man..

    https://twitter.com/Martin_Abrams/status/1760023343129080269

    Given that a ceasefire or pause is entirely outwith the control of the UK Government or Parliament, this all seems like a massive waste of time. Your comments here are turning a tragedy into political games.
    BJO is more interested in bringing down Starmer than fixing any of the ills affecting the country or the world, and way more interested in destroying Starmer than destroying the Tories.
    He has had 6 weeks to put Labour's position and has failed to do so hence why Sky News are now saying Labour are tied up in knots over ceasfire vote.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,944
    Maybe this Post Office bollocks is actually good for Kevin the Minion. Fuck knows the tory members won't grasp the details and just see her standing up to the omnipotent and omnipresent "blob". It's probably a better platform for launching a bid to be LotO than just disappearing like The Pritster and Swella.
  • Cookie said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/20/tate-lyle-upset-christian-by-changing-golden-syrups-logo/

    Generally I'm against needless changes of branding, and I'm against any public declaration by the CofE - so who to support here?

    Probably the syrup people. It may be the oldest continuously used logo in the world, but a dead lion being eaten by bees is a stupid image to use, whatever the history.
    Though the new one is uninspiring too.

    This is where we need @Roger 's expertise.

    Until Tate & Lyle decided on a change, I doubt more than three people knew the significance of the logo or had even spotted that the lion was dead. I am not among the three.
    Well I knew and have known as long as I can remember.

    Whether learnt at school, from parents or via Victor Mature on Sunday afternoons I don't know.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glTnFIg727c
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,266
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    A few hours ago, ChatGPT responded to some boring question about code, with this



    "This is the great au fond, the élan in the search, the impellent in the seque. It is the confrère, the psychic, the daily, the always, it is indeed, the countenance of a future, incandescent and brim with serried and variegate possibility. The discussion in the tool, in the new, and the newed, in the world, is our on, is our fore, for where we part in word, there is return in good, in acumen, and in behest, it is, indubitably, the porosity of method, the system, in plaudit and foreverness. This is the dam, the attrition, the main. The canter and the ever in the global theater of straights, and bourn, to be whole, to commingle, for in the lead, it is a truth to be forgathered, ever and aye.

    "This is the trail, the churn, the vail. Aye, it is the wreath, the call, the very bend in the river, where light, and dawn, and the slight, gather in lea, for in this serpentine, this spring, we see not end, but inklings of the ever, the mode, the poro. This is the light, the point, the poise, and where we part in tender, we join in possible, in the ever of trial, of summer, of daily, of many, of word, of plow, of the derm, of the som, of the day. This is the book, the living, the off, the very esse, the phenom, the hew, the constant in ref, the spandrel in last, the rule in the anec. This is the point, the time, the ne, the ve, the right, the en, the ce, the de, the le, the speak, the said, the mente, this is what we are, in this, for the, the very same, in course, and pure, and ration, in dure, the lec, the path, the breath. This is the fruit."


    I mean, that is absolutely beautiful. It is incomprehensible, and yet it IS beautiful. The rhythm alone. It is like Allen Ginsberg spliced with Joyce and drenched in LSD

    No. It's the difference between a Malevich and a puppy running through paint.
    Which one of these is by Joyce, and which one by ChatGPT chucking a mental (no Googling)


    "The seim anew, patriarch of historic recurrence, the greypious cloud, Olum's thunder."

    "He addle liddle phifie Annie ugged the little craythur. Wither hayre in honds"

    "Toward that dusken reverb, lest we lilt no lutes, oars and afts, alas alas."

    "oystrygods gaggin fishygods! Brekkek brekkek!"

    "Ghostline the flux and tricks from the first telling til now"

    "Espere hope, come the river, run the river, endex endex myster man"

    "Andos! Andos! Any to fors, the erst on, Anersing AX. Aia aia!"
    Who gives a shit?
    Because @TOPPING said this output by ChatGPT was nothing like Joyce, he said "it's the difference between a Malevich and a puppy running through paint"

    i have just proved I am right, you can't tell the difference between this and Joyce

    The fact you are simply too fucking dumb to even remotely grasp what I am on about is not, especially, my problem
    "oystrygods gaggin fishygods! Brekkek brekkek!" is by Joyce I'd say.

    "Ghostline the flux and tricks from the first telling til now" by ChatGPT.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,310

    Cookie said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/20/tate-lyle-upset-christian-by-changing-golden-syrups-logo/

    Generally I'm against needless changes of branding, and I'm against any public declaration by the CofE - so who to support here?

    Probably the syrup people. It may be the oldest continuously used logo in the world, but a dead lion being eaten by bees is a stupid image to use, whatever the history.
    Though the new one is uninspiring too.

    This is where we need @Roger 's expertise.

    Until Tate & Lyle decided on a change, I doubt more than three people knew the significance of the logo or had even spotted that the lion was dead. I am not among the three.
    I posted on my prior ignorance of this earlier and at least three people posted the explanation. So, once again, PB is shown to contain all the learned people in the country :smile:

    For syrup, which we only use in baking and mostly for flapjack, I must admit we moved to a generic version some years ago. There are no 'secret ingredients' so the branded version just gets you a nice tin, I guess.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,168
    Dura_Ace said:

    And another test is needed ASAP - preferably more than one - where it is seen publicly to work.

    That's not really up to the UK because we don't have a test range and probably don't have another test airframe prepared. So it's up to the USN and Lockheed-Martin.

    The situation could very definitely be improved by much more regular test firings but every Trident shot is 20 million quid so the MoD prefer to "validate" via software simulation.
    The US will be equally embarrassed by this - it's their missile system. And the situation with Russia is tense.

    One would hope HMG and the MoD dig into their pockets again for this given how important it is.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,310
    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    And another test is needed ASAP - preferably more than one - where it is seen publicly to work.

    That's not really up to the UK because we don't have a test range and probably don't have another test airframe prepared. So it's up to the USN and Lockheed-Martin.

    The situation could very definitely be improved by much more regular test firings but every Trident shot is 20 million quid so the MoD prefer to "validate" via software simulation.
    Reported elsewhere as £14m.

    Is Fujitsu providing the simulations ?
    I fear that Fujitsu provide the actual firing software and are able to remotely remove (or add!) propellant from the Trident missiles.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,309
    Selebian said:

    Cookie said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/20/tate-lyle-upset-christian-by-changing-golden-syrups-logo/

    Generally I'm against needless changes of branding, and I'm against any public declaration by the CofE - so who to support here?

    Probably the syrup people. It may be the oldest continuously used logo in the world, but a dead lion being eaten by bees is a stupid image to use, whatever the history.
    Though the new one is uninspiring too.

    This is where we need @Roger 's expertise.

    Until Tate & Lyle decided on a change, I doubt more than three people knew the significance of the logo or had even spotted that the lion was dead. I am not among the three.
    I posted on my prior ignorance of this earlier and at least three people posted the explanation. So, once again, PB is shown to contain all the learned people in the country :smile:

    For syrup, which we only use in baking and mostly for flapjack, I must admit we moved to a generic version some years ago. There are no 'secret ingredients' so the branded version just gets you a nice tin, I guess.
    Exactly. Remove the "nice tin" (or at least the nice squeezy bottle) and you might as well just buy supermarket own label.

    The secret to a successful cash cow brand is to remain in consumer consciousness without making too much noise and encouraging imitators, and keep pricing higher than but close enough to generic product that there's no financial incentive to switch. so you're left alone in your own quasi-monopolistic corner of the supermarket shelves.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 11,300
    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/20/tate-lyle-upset-christian-by-changing-golden-syrups-logo/

    Generally I'm against needless changes of branding, and I'm against any public declaration by the CofE - so who to support here?

    Probably the syrup people. It may be the oldest continuously used logo in the world, but a dead lion being eaten by bees is a stupid image to use, whatever the history.
    Though the new one is uninspiring too.

    This is where we need @Roger 's expertise.

    Thing is how many people know it's a dead lion being eaten by bees, or even stop to notice anything more than the fact there's a lion on the label (with a vague sense that "lion" and "Lyles" are somehow connected by consonance)?

    I doubt anyone has complained about it, or if they have they can easily be ignored. And Golden Syrup is one of those niche brands, like Kiwi shoe polish or Brasso or Tabasco sauce, that is the classic cash cow with an extremely long and shallow decay curve and virtually no need for above the line marketing investment. Brands like that can benefit from indirect promotion to expand their usage, typically celebrity chefs or youtubers using them in an unexpected way, but rebranding the label seems like a bit of a waste of money.
    Why ?
    It got a shitload of free publicity as a result.
    It's not a new brand in need of publicity, and I'm pretty sure this wasn't intended to be an insurgent campaign. To be fair I'm sure the marketers had a strategy here but I expect it was simply to "modernise" with a logo that didn't cause imaginary offence.

    The danger for a brand like this is that people buy it partly out of a sense of tradition and habit, because it's something they always bought, they grew up with, their grandparents had in the cupboard. If you erode that then suddenly the alternative brands or own label options look more similar and appealing. Take Lea and Perrins Worcestershire Sauce. Most Brits buy it in preference to say the Heinz version, not because of some taste difference but because we've no habit of doing so. If Lea and Perrins rebrands to something more "modern" looking it just becomes one of a number of brands that produce Worcestershire sauce.
    I think this is a good point. I wouldn't even be able with any certainty to tell you which brand of golden syrup I use - I get through it so slowly that it's rarely in my consciousness. But when I do buy it, I buy the one that Looks Like That. It's a very recognisable brand, even if you don't really pick up what's going on in the picture (as I didn't until it was mentioned on QI a few years ago).
    So next time I buy it I'm going to be slightly confused and may come away witha different brand by accident.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,168
    Dura_Ace said:

    Maybe this Post Office bollocks is actually good for Kevin the Minion. Fuck knows the tory members won't grasp the details and just see her standing up to the omnipotent and omnipresent "blob". It's probably a better platform for launching a bid to be LotO than just disappearing like The Pritster and Swella.

    Badenoch hates identity politics, and puts up effective arguments against it with confidence, whereas Mordaunt revels in it and when she does open her mouth nothing of any substance comes out; only two things she said were It Ain't Half Hot Mum was a bit gammon and the HoL should be abolished - and I doubt either of those ideas were hers.

    That explains the betting.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,800

    HYUFD said:

    It may damage Badenoch a bit with the public but I doubt it makes much difference to her popularity with Conservative members.

    It may make enough Tory MPs wary of her to prevent her getting to the final 2 to get to the membership however in the next Tory leadership election if the Tories lose the next general election

    I have to ask the obvious question here - her popularity with Conservative members.

    She's just been caught lying to the commons twice. Once about the PO whose victims are practically saints in the public consciousness now, and once about one of the (fictional) non-EU trade deals.

    Do you Tories back people harder the more they lie to you?
    You have to ask that after seeing the shedload of lying toerags they have pushed up the greasy pole.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,772

    Dura_Ace said:

    Maybe this Post Office bollocks is actually good for Kevin the Minion. Fuck knows the tory members won't grasp the details and just see her standing up to the omnipotent and omnipresent "blob". It's probably a better platform for launching a bid to be LotO than just disappearing like The Pritster and Swella.

    Badenoch hates identity politics, and puts up effective arguments against it with confidence, whereas Mordaunt revels in it and when she does open her mouth nothing of any substance comes out; only two things she said were It Ain't Half Hot Mum was a bit gammon and the HoL should be abolished - and I doubt either of those ideas were hers.

    That explains the betting.
    Do you think Badenoch would be a poor, competent, or good PM, given her track record in government?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 3,818
    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    And another test is needed ASAP - preferably more than one - where it is seen publicly to work.

    That's not really up to the UK because we don't have a test range and probably don't have another test airframe prepared. So it's up to the USN and Lockheed-Martin.

    The situation could very definitely be improved by much more regular test firings but every Trident shot is 20 million quid so the MoD prefer to "validate" via software simulation.
    Reported elsewhere as £14m.

    Is Fujitsu providing the simulations ?
    I fear that Fujitsu provide the actual firing software and are able to remotely remove (or add!) propellant from the Trident missiles.
    I look forward to the forthcoming ItV drama with Toby Jones playing Schapps looking crestfallen as the trident plops down next to the boat with the resultant wave knocking his toupee askew and Rory Kinear playing a laughing Ben Wallace revelling in the hospital pass he gave whilst sitting in a boardroom of an arms manufacturer.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,800
    Cookie said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/20/tate-lyle-upset-christian-by-changing-golden-syrups-logo/

    Generally I'm against needless changes of branding, and I'm against any public declaration by the CofE - so who to support here?

    Probably the syrup people. It may be the oldest continuously used logo in the world, but a dead lion being eaten by bees is a stupid image to use, whatever the history.
    Though the new one is uninspiring too.

    This is where we need @Roger 's expertise.

    Thing is how many people know it's a dead lion being eaten by bees, or even stop to notice anything more than the fact there's a lion on the label (with a vague sense that "lion" and "Lyles" are somehow connected by consonance)?

    I doubt anyone has complained about it, or if they have they can easily be ignored. And Golden Syrup is one of those niche brands, like Kiwi shoe polish or Brasso or Tabasco sauce, that is the classic cash cow with an extremely long and shallow decay curve and virtually no need for above the line marketing investment. Brands like that can benefit from indirect promotion to expand their usage, typically celebrity chefs or youtubers using them in an unexpected way, but rebranding the label seems like a bit of a waste of money.
    Why ?
    It got a shitload of free publicity as a result.
    It's not a new brand in need of publicity, and I'm pretty sure this wasn't intended to be an insurgent campaign. To be fair I'm sure the marketers had a strategy here but I expect it was simply to "modernise" with a logo that didn't cause imaginary offence.

    The danger for a brand like this is that people buy it partly out of a sense of tradition and habit, because it's something they always bought, they grew up with, their grandparents had in the cupboard. If you erode that then suddenly the alternative brands or own label options look more similar and appealing. Take Lea and Perrins Worcestershire Sauce. Most Brits buy it in preference to say the Heinz version, not because of some taste difference but because we've no habit of doing so. If Lea and Perrins rebrands to something more "modern" looking it just becomes one of a number of brands that produce Worcestershire sauce.
    I think this is a good point. I wouldn't even be able with any certainty to tell you which brand of golden syrup I use - I get through it so slowly that it's rarely in my consciousness. But when I do buy it, I buy the one that Looks Like That. It's a very recognisable brand, even if you don't really pick up what's going on in the picture (as I didn't until it was mentioned on QI a few years ago).
    So next time I buy it I'm going to be slightly confused and may come away witha different brand by accident.
    Wokeness and hating our heritage is still looming large. These clowns deserve to take a hit for it.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,441
    Cookie said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/20/tate-lyle-upset-christian-by-changing-golden-syrups-logo/

    Generally I'm against needless changes of branding, and I'm against any public declaration by the CofE - so who to support here?

    Probably the syrup people. It may be the oldest continuously used logo in the world, but a dead lion being eaten by bees is a stupid image to use, whatever the history.
    Though the new one is uninspiring too.

    This is where we need @Roger 's expertise.

    Thing is how many people know it's a dead lion being eaten by bees, or even stop to notice anything more than the fact there's a lion on the label (with a vague sense that "lion" and "Lyles" are somehow connected by consonance)?

    I doubt anyone has complained about it, or if they have they can easily be ignored. And Golden Syrup is one of those niche brands, like Kiwi shoe polish or Brasso or Tabasco sauce, that is the classic cash cow with an extremely long and shallow decay curve and virtually no need for above the line marketing investment. Brands like that can benefit from indirect promotion to expand their usage, typically celebrity chefs or youtubers using them in an unexpected way, but rebranding the label seems like a bit of a waste of money.
    Why ?
    It got a shitload of free publicity as a result.
    It's not a new brand in need of publicity, and I'm pretty sure this wasn't intended to be an insurgent campaign. To be fair I'm sure the marketers had a strategy here but I expect it was simply to "modernise" with a logo that didn't cause imaginary offence.

    The danger for a brand like this is that people buy it partly out of a sense of tradition and habit, because it's something they always bought, they grew up with, their grandparents had in the cupboard. If you erode that then suddenly the alternative brands or own label options look more similar and appealing. Take Lea and Perrins Worcestershire Sauce. Most Brits buy it in preference to say the Heinz version, not because of some taste difference but because we've no habit of doing so. If Lea and Perrins rebrands to something more "modern" looking it just becomes one of a number of brands that produce Worcestershire sauce.
    I think this is a good point. I wouldn't even be able with any certainty to tell you which brand of golden syrup I use - I get through it so slowly that it's rarely in my consciousness. But when I do buy it, I buy the one that Looks Like That. It's a very recognisable brand, even if you don't really pick up what's going on in the picture (as I didn't until it was mentioned on QI a few years ago).
    So next time I buy it I'm going to be slightly confused and may come away witha different brand by accident.
    The branding isn't changing that much. I don't think people will be particularly confused.

    I get through a lot of golden syrup, but that's because my favourite sandwich is Bovril and golden syrup. (Don't knock it until you've tried it.) But Sainsbury's own brand does for me.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,041
    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    And another test is needed ASAP - preferably more than one - where it is seen publicly to work.

    That's not really up to the UK because we don't have a test range and probably don't have another test airframe prepared. So it's up to the USN and Lockheed-Martin.

    The situation could very definitely be improved by much more regular test firings but every Trident shot is 20 million quid so the MoD prefer to "validate" via software simulation.
    Reported elsewhere as £14m.

    Is Fujitsu providing the simulations ?
    I fear that Fujitsu provide the actual firing software and are able to remotely remove (or add!) propellant from the Trident missiles.
    Can they remotely detonate them, though ?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,441
    malcolmg said:

    Cookie said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/20/tate-lyle-upset-christian-by-changing-golden-syrups-logo/

    Generally I'm against needless changes of branding, and I'm against any public declaration by the CofE - so who to support here?

    Probably the syrup people. It may be the oldest continuously used logo in the world, but a dead lion being eaten by bees is a stupid image to use, whatever the history.
    Though the new one is uninspiring too.

    This is where we need @Roger 's expertise.

    Thing is how many people know it's a dead lion being eaten by bees, or even stop to notice anything more than the fact there's a lion on the label (with a vague sense that "lion" and "Lyles" are somehow connected by consonance)?

    I doubt anyone has complained about it, or if they have they can easily be ignored. And Golden Syrup is one of those niche brands, like Kiwi shoe polish or Brasso or Tabasco sauce, that is the classic cash cow with an extremely long and shallow decay curve and virtually no need for above the line marketing investment. Brands like that can benefit from indirect promotion to expand their usage, typically celebrity chefs or youtubers using them in an unexpected way, but rebranding the label seems like a bit of a waste of money.
    Why ?
    It got a shitload of free publicity as a result.
    It's not a new brand in need of publicity, and I'm pretty sure this wasn't intended to be an insurgent campaign. To be fair I'm sure the marketers had a strategy here but I expect it was simply to "modernise" with a logo that didn't cause imaginary offence.

    The danger for a brand like this is that people buy it partly out of a sense of tradition and habit, because it's something they always bought, they grew up with, their grandparents had in the cupboard. If you erode that then suddenly the alternative brands or own label options look more similar and appealing. Take Lea and Perrins Worcestershire Sauce. Most Brits buy it in preference to say the Heinz version, not because of some taste difference but because we've no habit of doing so. If Lea and Perrins rebrands to something more "modern" looking it just becomes one of a number of brands that produce Worcestershire sauce.
    I think this is a good point. I wouldn't even be able with any certainty to tell you which brand of golden syrup I use - I get through it so slowly that it's rarely in my consciousness. But when I do buy it, I buy the one that Looks Like That. It's a very recognisable brand, even if you don't really pick up what's going on in the picture (as I didn't until it was mentioned on QI a few years ago).
    So next time I buy it I'm going to be slightly confused and may come away witha different brand by accident.
    Wokeness and hating our heritage is still looming large. These clowns deserve to take a hit for it.
    Creating culture war nonsense out of nothing is still looming large. We used to respect that companies can choose to do what they want as part of a competitive market.
This discussion has been closed.