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Why tax cuts might not be a panacea for the Tories – politicalbetting.com

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  • TazTaz Posts: 14,589
    AlsoLei said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    eek said:

    I see Birmingham are closing 25 out of its 36 libraries to reduce costs

    Penny-wise and pound-foolish.

    If every there was a public good that was an investment in our future it was a public library.
    One of the richest countries in the world cannot afford public libraries.

    What a pitiful low this generation of tories has brought us to.

    The election can't come soon enough.
    It does feel bleakly emblematic

    I’m pretty sure it’s not entirely the fault of the Tory government, but they are so unpopular they are gonna get saddled with all the bad news. I really do wonder if they might get wiped out entirely, a la Canadienne
    As has been discussed here before, the problems with some local govt is down to inept management by previous administrations. They tend to all get lumped in with the ones who are suffering from other issues related to the grant.

    Nottingham City and Brum being two examples.

    Brum is facing a massive equal pay claim it cannot afford. Has an IT project they have massively overspent on as well as other things. Money spunked on the Commonwealth games, how has that worked out ?

    But, yeah, it's all down to the govt.
    Speaking of which, does anyone know what the situation is with the next two editions of the games?

    As far as I can see, for 2026, there's still no replacement host after Victoria pulled out. Scotland and London had both been making noises about bids - but in December the UK govt said no, citing the poor return on the Birmingham games.

    And for 2030, there are no bidders. Two potential Canadian bids have been withdrawn, and no-one else seems interesting in stepping forward.

    So is that it? No more Commonwealth Games? And if so, will anyone care?

    I think the Commonwealth Games has probably run its course. There was talk of Birmingham again but that is not likely now.

    I don't think many people will care. Maybe the athletes who get a chance of a medal they would not get at an olympics, but few people otherwise.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,771


    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    X

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    malcolmg said:

    148grss said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Isn't the answer to marginal tax woes quite simply to salary sacrifice more into your pension ?

    I mean the annual allowance is 60 grand a year !

    Yes, time and time again I get this advice, but with two kids, a mortgage and big bills to pay I need the money now.

    It's a choice between deferring near 100% for at least 15 years (and getting nothing now) and taking a 60% haircut, but getting 40% now.
    Maybe you should just live within your means - stop buying avocado toast and such. That's the advice that always seems to come to my generation when we complain about our income being shit. Bootstraps, pull them up by, etc.
    Green with envy, rather than going out and working hard like Casino you prefer to whine about people who work hard being better off than lazy barstewards like yourself.
    @Casino_Royale ’s only problem is that he lives down south so has a mortgage that is way bigger than the equivalent mortgage would be further north.
    And this is why I think the housing crisis is overstated. There is absolutely nothing stopping people from moving to Retford. Look at this bargain:

    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/120535733#/?channel=RES_BUY
    How many 100k jobs available near Retford? How many 100k jobs available in London? Wfh may change things (substantially?) but there absolutely is something stopping all the people on good household incomes in London and the other hotspots moving to somewhere more affordable. Jobs.
    The 06:51 gets you into KGX for 08:30:

    https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C28967/2024-02-27/detailed

    That property is only a 15 minute walk from the station. Plenty of people do similar journeys from Hampshire and Wiltshire. Here's what you get for a similar price in Salisbury which is a similar commute to London:

    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/137356181#/?channel=RES_BUY

    Okay, maybe there are more good jobs in Salisbury than Retford but plenty commute up to London.
    So its about a 4.5-5hr roundtrip commute to work each day when things go well. Works for some. For others life is too short.
    My daily fifteen minute round trip walking commute is one of the reasons I can work over 55 hours every week
    My commute takes me 14 seconds as I slither from my bed to the table with a can of iced coffee

    I still resent even that, slightly
    Isn't your "commute" more a metaphysical exercise than a logistical one?
    Yes but it is real

    I’ve actually tried not even doing that, ie staying in bed and lifting up the laptop

    It doesn’t work. You need some physical shift from the place of sleep to the place of work, even if it is only ten feet and 48 seconds

    Must be some evolutionary reason for it. Or maybe metabolic. You have to stand to get the blood flowing to the brain?
    Didn't Proust stay in bed and write?
    Indeed but he also did depraved things with rodents, some of us are better than that
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,693


    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    X

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    malcolmg said:

    148grss said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Isn't the answer to marginal tax woes quite simply to salary sacrifice more into your pension ?

    I mean the annual allowance is 60 grand a year !

    Yes, time and time again I get this advice, but with two kids, a mortgage and big bills to pay I need the money now.

    It's a choice between deferring near 100% for at least 15 years (and getting nothing now) and taking a 60% haircut, but getting 40% now.
    Maybe you should just live within your means - stop buying avocado toast and such. That's the advice that always seems to come to my generation when we complain about our income being shit. Bootstraps, pull them up by, etc.
    Green with envy, rather than going out and working hard like Casino you prefer to whine about people who work hard being better off than lazy barstewards like yourself.
    @Casino_Royale ’s only problem is that he lives down south so has a mortgage that is way bigger than the equivalent mortgage would be further north.
    And this is why I think the housing crisis is overstated. There is absolutely nothing stopping people from moving to Retford. Look at this bargain:

    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/120535733#/?channel=RES_BUY
    How many 100k jobs available near Retford? How many 100k jobs available in London? Wfh may change things (substantially?) but there absolutely is something stopping all the people on good household incomes in London and the other hotspots moving to somewhere more affordable. Jobs.
    The 06:51 gets you into KGX for 08:30:

    https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C28967/2024-02-27/detailed

    That property is only a 15 minute walk from the station. Plenty of people do similar journeys from Hampshire and Wiltshire. Here's what you get for a similar price in Salisbury which is a similar commute to London:

    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/137356181#/?channel=RES_BUY

    Okay, maybe there are more good jobs in Salisbury than Retford but plenty commute up to London.
    So its about a 4.5-5hr roundtrip commute to work each day when things go well. Works for some. For others life is too short.
    My daily fifteen minute round trip walking commute is one of the reasons I can work over 55 hours every week
    My commute takes me 14 seconds as I slither from my bed to the table with a can of iced coffee

    I still resent even that, slightly
    Isn't your "commute" more a metaphysical exercise than a logistical one?
    Yes but it is real

    I’ve actually tried not even doing that, ie staying in bed and lifting up the laptop

    It doesn’t work. You need some physical shift from the place of sleep to the place of work, even if it is only ten feet and 48 seconds

    Must be some evolutionary reason for it. Or maybe metabolic. You have to stand to get the blood flowing to the brain?
    Didn't Proust stay in bed and write?
    In a bed full of cake crumbs?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,901
    Leon said:


    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    X

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    malcolmg said:

    148grss said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Isn't the answer to marginal tax woes quite simply to salary sacrifice more into your pension ?

    I mean the annual allowance is 60 grand a year !

    Yes, time and time again I get this advice, but with two kids, a mortgage and big bills to pay I need the money now.

    It's a choice between deferring near 100% for at least 15 years (and getting nothing now) and taking a 60% haircut, but getting 40% now.
    Maybe you should just live within your means - stop buying avocado toast and such. That's the advice that always seems to come to my generation when we complain about our income being shit. Bootstraps, pull them up by, etc.
    Green with envy, rather than going out and working hard like Casino you prefer to whine about people who work hard being better off than lazy barstewards like yourself.
    @Casino_Royale ’s only problem is that he lives down south so has a mortgage that is way bigger than the equivalent mortgage would be further north.
    And this is why I think the housing crisis is overstated. There is absolutely nothing stopping people from moving to Retford. Look at this bargain:

    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/120535733#/?channel=RES_BUY
    How many 100k jobs available near Retford? How many 100k jobs available in London? Wfh may change things (substantially?) but there absolutely is something stopping all the people on good household incomes in London and the other hotspots moving to somewhere more affordable. Jobs.
    The 06:51 gets you into KGX for 08:30:

    https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C28967/2024-02-27/detailed

    That property is only a 15 minute walk from the station. Plenty of people do similar journeys from Hampshire and Wiltshire. Here's what you get for a similar price in Salisbury which is a similar commute to London:

    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/137356181#/?channel=RES_BUY

    Okay, maybe there are more good jobs in Salisbury than Retford but plenty commute up to London.
    So its about a 4.5-5hr roundtrip commute to work each day when things go well. Works for some. For others life is too short.
    My daily fifteen minute round trip walking commute is one of the reasons I can work over 55 hours every week
    My commute takes me 14 seconds as I slither from my bed to the table with a can of iced coffee

    I still resent even that, slightly
    Isn't your "commute" more a metaphysical exercise than a logistical one?
    Yes but it is real

    I’ve actually tried not even doing that, ie staying in bed and lifting up the laptop

    It doesn’t work. You need some physical shift from the place of sleep to the place of work, even if it is only ten feet and 48 seconds

    Must be some evolutionary reason for it. Or maybe metabolic. You have to stand to get the blood flowing to the brain?
    Didn't Proust stay in bed and write?
    Indeed but he also did depraved things with rodents, some of us are better than that
    LOL.

    Did he? I dont know that one.

    No way am I googling it though...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,567
    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    algarkirk said:
    This article is so out of touch. Difficult life on £60k a year? What about the other 90%.

    https://moneysprout.co.uk/what-percentage-of-the-uk-earns-over-60k
    "The latest UK data shows that earning over £60k per year puts you in the top 10% of earners in the country. This is the equivalent to the 90th percentile. If you are earning more than £60k per year you are making more than 90% of the working population."
    Is it out of touch, or just demonstrating how messed up things are, if even some of those on £60k aren't finding life peachy ?

    The story is really about the "one in three chance of someone earning a middle income today not doing so next year", alongside historically high housing costs, rather than high income hardship.

    So the headline is just the usual attention grabbing hyperbole, but the problems behind it exists for many more than those on £60k.
    It's mainly focused on the differential between London and other parts of the UK, as I read it.

    It's also worth noting that the income distribution curve isn't static; most people will move up and down it across their career.

    I didn't breach 30k until I was into my thirties, and at the end of my career I expect to slip down itagain too. It's a fantasy to say that people doing well in their careers, right now, don't understand what it's like living on a very limited budget as it is to say they are now rich.

    From the age of 40-55 you tend to have a peak earning potential that it'd be foolish not to exploit if you can, especially if you have extensive family commitments.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,712
    It looks like the new version of UKPollingReport isn't being updated any more. A shame when you think how good the original site was, when it was managed by Anthony Wells of YouGov.

    https://pollingreport.uk
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,693
    Calocane (triple homicide) sentencing remarks here:

    https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Calocane-sentencing-remarks.pdf

    Can anyone see what the AG and the Court of Appeal might find wrong with it? I can't.
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589
    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    PB might be interested to find that the government has performed a dangerous u-turn on tax breaks for double cab pick-up trucks.

    These kinds of vehicles are responsible in the large increase in child road casualties in the US (estimates of around 8x more deadly in a collision, plus reduced visibility over high bonnets). More dangerous than XL Bullies, I'll wager.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/update-on-hmrc-double-cab-pick-up-guidance

    The difference is that in the US, they are used by every fool to go and buy a Starbucks.

    Double cab pickups are only used (to a high degree of confidence) in the U.K. by businesses which need to transport combinations of people and materials. Builders are the classic example.

    The difference is that in the US, culture and taxation encourages absurd vehicles.

    Interestingly, in the UK, their introduction led to a drop in injuries from the good old practise of piling people and tools together in the back of the Transit. An actual seat with crash protection, a seat belt and no piles of sharp heavy things is safer. Who knew?
    I suppose we can wait and see what happens.- it's true that this hasn't happened yet in the UK.

    Transits have much better visibility than pick-up trucks.

    There isnt the cult of the monster car, in the U.K. The urban SUV thing is people buying a shorter, higher vehicle to get the same space as an estate car in less length.

    No one buys a long cab for fun in the U.K.. They are van sized, but with more seats and reduced load space, compared to the same footprint.

    The reason for buying them is carrying more than 3 people. Unless you want to go back to vans with people squatting in the back?
    I'd suggest that the main reason for buying them is that they get a tax break worth between £3000 and £6000 per annum compared to something classified as a car, and make it easier to evade VAT on fuel used domestically. *

    In the justification for maintaining the tax break the Govt cited "farmers" and "the motor industry". The motor industry are invested in sales. "Farmers" can still get the tax breaks by reasonably registering it as a commercial via their business.

    The target is votes from people who benefit from the strange tax break.

    Personally I supported the measure before the cynical reverse-ferret because these vehicles are huge ( I have perhaps the longest estate car in the country, and a Ford Ranger CC is about 50cm longer), are less safe when driven, and are known to be more dangerous for pedestrians. **

    * https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/consumer/tax-hike-pick-ups-reversed-uk-government Autocar have switched their article. Screenshot from previous below
    ** https://etsc.eu/suvs-and-pickups-make-the-roads-less-safe-for-car-occupants-pedestrians-and-cyclists-belgian-study/

    The obvious point is that a double cab means it is less effective for things like farming, and much more effective for the school run.

    Not looking forward to the consternation in 10 years time when casualties are through the roof.
    For contractor or business types needing to carry workforce, there are now mid-size vans available with two rows of seats (eg Ford Transit Connect or Vauxhall Vivaro) which are 0.5m - 1m shorter, so fit in a parking space, are cheaper to buy, more economical, and better load carriers. *

    But when you give someone a 3k - 5k a year tax break to buy something bigger, more expensive, less efficient and less effective, rational decisions are distorted. Smaller crew cab pickups will still be classified as "cars", so it's the huge ones that are incentivised.

    * interestingly these are now also common choices for eg wheelchair users.
    I've only just realised your latter point. This punishes people with smaller pick ups while giving a tax break to those with massive ones. FFS.

    I was going to compare this to the Dangerous Dogs Act but I think it's actually worse.
    That would also be smaller pickups with longer beds (like our DMax). The ones actually good for carrying shit.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,712
    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    algarkirk said:
    This article is so out of touch. Difficult life on £60k a year? What about the other 90%.

    https://moneysprout.co.uk/what-percentage-of-the-uk-earns-over-60k
    "The latest UK data shows that earning over £60k per year puts you in the top 10% of earners in the country. This is the equivalent to the 90th percentile. If you are earning more than £60k per year you are making more than 90% of the working population."
    Is it out of touch, or just demonstrating how messed up things are, if even some of those on £60k aren't finding life peachy ?

    The story is really about the "one in three chance of someone earning a middle income today not doing so next year", alongside historically high housing costs, rather than high income hardship.

    So the headline is just the usual attention grabbing hyperbole, but the problems behind it exist for many more than those on £60k.
    I think it is out of touch. Millions of people manage on £20k a year, even in London. If you're having problems on £60k you need to reduce your spending.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,199
    algarkirk said:

    viewcode said:

    If anybody wants me to describe the side-effects of a 3-5hr over100mile commute one way twice a week by train/bus/taxi over several years, including back pain, tooth loss, circulation problems, skin problems, insomnia, cold, pain, fear and a growing inner conviction that we should wipe out the entire species and restart with cats, I am more than happy to lecture you on the topic. Please form an orderly queue... :)

    For more or less any individual the choice exists to avoid a massive commute, though of course it may limit career choices, progression, geography, and all sorts of things. This bad bit of our system relies on mass willingness to endure these things. Personally I opted out of that aspect of it - while being a totally conformist One Nation centrist in all things - over 40 years ago. I have never regretted it and commend it to anyone who wonders about the meaning of life in the 5 hour a day commute.
    I do take your point but unfortunately it is not an option I can elect.

    My choices are limited to my options. I don't have the option to not have a job. My skillset has become increasingly arcane as I get older so although there are still vacancies, they are not in one place but are scattered around the country. House prices dictate I can't relocate, so long commutes are mandated.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,079
    boulay said:

    Elon suspends Mrs Nevalny's X account because she has been nasty to Vlad the Impaler.

    https://meduza.io/en/news/2024/02/20/x-formerly-twitter-suspends-yulia-navalnaya-s-account

    I wonder if there is a line he will cross where he becomes a target for an accident at the hands of Ukrainian operatives.
    If that article is true then he's crossed a line where I cease using TwiX. I'm sure he won't shed many tears, but I expect I'm not alone.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,423
    Mbappe signs for Real.
    To be paid £192m over 5 years plus image rights.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,079
    Andy_JS said:

    It looks like the new version of UKPollingReport isn't being updated any more. A shame when you think how good the original site was, when it was managed by Anthony Wells of YouGov.

    https://pollingreport.uk

    Yes, it was my gateway drug into PB when I realised the latter had greater traffic and more posters.
  • I see some comments on here have entered reductio ad absurdum: i.e. because a 100k salary is much greater than I have, and I have it tough, there is no level of taxation that can be high enough, and they have absolutely no right whatsoever to complain about it.

    Such an approach is the path to penury, and economic ruin; it would result in less tax, less growth, less revenue and worse public services.

    The politics of envy makes me sick.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,890
    The DM has a paywalled article on the growth of Islam among the native working class: "Why white British children as young as eight are pledging their lives to Allah"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13101005/wokery-white-British-children-converting-Islam.html

    Other films seen by the Mail reveal English teenage males turning to Islam. Lancashire’s Masjid as-Sunnah establishment in Accrington has posted one of Mitch, 17, solemnly saying the Shahada as he sits on the floor next to an imam last year. He stands up afterwards and, smiling, is hugged by members of the congregation.

    In nearby Nelson, teenager Dylan, in a grey hoodie, is filmed accepting the Shahada in a local mosque in 2022.

    A message posted under the online film written by him and signed in his full name a year later says: ‘It’s me on this video . . . It is still the best decision of my life and all the blessings that come with Islam.’
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,783
    edited February 20
    I see Prince William has become involved in politics.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68343334
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,589

    The DM has a paywalled article on the growth of Islam among the native working class: "Why white British children as young as eight are pledging their lives to Allah"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13101005/wokery-white-British-children-converting-Islam.html

    Other films seen by the Mail reveal English teenage males turning to Islam. Lancashire’s Masjid as-Sunnah establishment in Accrington has posted one of Mitch, 17, solemnly saying the Shahada as he sits on the floor next to an imam last year. He stands up afterwards and, smiling, is hugged by members of the congregation.

    In nearby Nelson, teenager Dylan, in a grey hoodie, is filmed accepting the Shahada in a local mosque in 2022.

    A message posted under the online film written by him and signed in his full name a year later says: ‘It’s me on this video . . . It is still the best decision of my life and all the blessings that come with Islam.’

    If it is a comfort to them and something positive in their life, good for them.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,771

    Leon said:


    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    X

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    malcolmg said:

    148grss said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Isn't the answer to marginal tax woes quite simply to salary sacrifice more into your pension ?

    I mean the annual allowance is 60 grand a year !

    Yes, time and time again I get this advice, but with two kids, a mortgage and big bills to pay I need the money now.

    It's a choice between deferring near 100% for at least 15 years (and getting nothing now) and taking a 60% haircut, but getting 40% now.
    Maybe you should just live within your means - stop buying avocado toast and such. That's the advice that always seems to come to my generation when we complain about our income being shit. Bootstraps, pull them up by, etc.
    Green with envy, rather than going out and working hard like Casino you prefer to whine about people who work hard being better off than lazy barstewards like yourself.
    @Casino_Royale ’s only problem is that he lives down south so has a mortgage that is way bigger than the equivalent mortgage would be further north.
    And this is why I think the housing crisis is overstated. There is absolutely nothing stopping people from moving to Retford. Look at this bargain:

    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/120535733#/?channel=RES_BUY
    How many 100k jobs available near Retford? How many 100k jobs available in London? Wfh may change things (substantially?) but there absolutely is something stopping all the people on good household incomes in London and the other hotspots moving to somewhere more affordable. Jobs.
    The 06:51 gets you into KGX for 08:30:

    https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C28967/2024-02-27/detailed

    That property is only a 15 minute walk from the station. Plenty of people do similar journeys from Hampshire and Wiltshire. Here's what you get for a similar price in Salisbury which is a similar commute to London:

    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/137356181#/?channel=RES_BUY

    Okay, maybe there are more good jobs in Salisbury than Retford but plenty commute up to London.
    So its about a 4.5-5hr roundtrip commute to work each day when things go well. Works for some. For others life is too short.
    My daily fifteen minute round trip walking commute is one of the reasons I can work over 55 hours every week
    My commute takes me 14 seconds as I slither from my bed to the table with a can of iced coffee

    I still resent even that, slightly
    Isn't your "commute" more a metaphysical exercise than a logistical one?
    Yes but it is real

    I’ve actually tried not even doing that, ie staying in bed and lifting up the laptop

    It doesn’t work. You need some physical shift from the place of sleep to the place of work, even if it is only ten feet and 48 seconds

    Must be some evolutionary reason for it. Or maybe metabolic. You have to stand to get the blood flowing to the brain?
    Didn't Proust stay in bed and write?
    Indeed but he also did depraved things with rodents, some of us are better than that
    LOL.

    Did he? I dont know that one.

    No way am I googling it though...
    Sensible. It is extraordinary, in a bad way

    Various people have tried to dismiss it as nonsense, but it is well corroborated
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,693
    Have we noted this one - possibly an extension of Russia's deadly activities abroad
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68337794
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,939
    Interesting success story by the NCA for once: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-68344987

    The UK has played the lead in bringing down Lockbit, who were the largest international ransomware organisation. Based in Russia, of course. It will be fascinating what they discover about people who have been extorted but not admitted it in public up to now.

    Hope it doesn't interfere with the supply of Russian bots to this site. They can be entertaining in small doses.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,939
    Also looks like whoever predicted that Mr Ezedi would be found in the Thames has been proven right: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68238460
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,521
    edited February 20
    Henry Staunton is a very bad man according to Kemi who has had to call him to account under the cover of parliamentary privilege. Perhaps she could do him over by hacking his social media accounts. She has the form.

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/apr/09/bafflement-over-tory-mps-admission-she-hacked-harriet-harmans-website
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,515
    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-68341244

    AG to appeal the Nottingham triple killing sentence. SFAICS it isn't actually appealable because of the agreement as to his mental state. One to watch with interest.

    Its clearly the process/law that it is at fault, as was explained by PB lawyers at the time. I think the questions are how correct was the diagnosis, why did it take so long to have him seen by psychologists, and were the families mislead/not kept informed during the process.

    As it stands the sentence is correct based on the verdict.

    Personally I think the law is at fault. He was convicted of attempted murder of three people, but only of manslaughter of the three he managed to kill because reasons. Its the attempted murder conviction I don't understand - why doesn't the same situation apply to that? Attempted manslaughter?

    (You can tell I am not a lawyer...)
    1) The Court of Appeal can't have a direct interest in how systems failed so as to get to the point where he is on the street and the homicides could occur. That's no part of the criminal system, nor could it be.

    2) The question of what to do with people who commit homicides and other serious offences while being massively and dangerously mentally ill is a very hard question in itself, and need to be under regular review. The Court of Appeal can comment but can't change it.

    3) The Court of Appeal will have to consider sentencing under the law as it stands.

    4) Attempted manslaughter is not used for failed homicide attempts because the statute which brought in manslaughter in place of murder for diminished responsibility does not extend to attempts. (There are historic reasons relating to the death penalty for this. It isn't supposed t make sense).

    5) The Court of Appeal can't go back in time and say it should have been murder really.

    6) If he ended up in the prison system he would be moved to a secure hospital within days. So nothing much would change. he isn't coming out.
    On number (4) - it bloody well should make sense. If it doesn't, change the law.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,760
    Another recall by-election in the offing?

    Scott Benton: Lobbying scandal MP loses suspension appeal

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-68348594
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,806
    So, off-topic but: "Tate & Lyle's Golden Syrup rebrand drops dead lion"
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68347249

    What? What?

    I'd never realised it was a dead lion. Not that I'd ever looked closely, but I'd probably have assumed it was sleeping after enjoying a tasty snack of partially inverted refiner's syrup and was about to be bothered by some bees/flies.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,901
    DavidL said:

    Also looks like whoever predicted that Mr Ezedi would be found in the Thames has been proven right: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68238460

    The armchair detectives on twitter were telling us there was no way he was in the Thames and the Met had given up looking for him and gone back to policing woke crime etc etc...

    No doubt the apologies will be flooding in.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,012
    Leon said:

    Leon said:


    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    X

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    malcolmg said:

    148grss said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Isn't the answer to marginal tax woes quite simply to salary sacrifice more into your pension ?

    I mean the annual allowance is 60 grand a year !

    Yes, time and time again I get this advice, but with two kids, a mortgage and big bills to pay I need the money now.

    It's a choice between deferring near 100% for at least 15 years (and getting nothing now) and taking a 60% haircut, but getting 40% now.
    Maybe you should just live within your means - stop buying avocado toast and such. That's the advice that always seems to come to my generation when we complain about our income being shit. Bootstraps, pull them up by, etc.
    Green with envy, rather than going out and working hard like Casino you prefer to whine about people who work hard being better off than lazy barstewards like yourself.
    @Casino_Royale ’s only problem is that he lives down south so has a mortgage that is way bigger than the equivalent mortgage would be further north.
    And this is why I think the housing crisis is overstated. There is absolutely nothing stopping people from moving to Retford. Look at this bargain:

    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/120535733#/?channel=RES_BUY
    How many 100k jobs available near Retford? How many 100k jobs available in London? Wfh may change things (substantially?) but there absolutely is something stopping all the people on good household incomes in London and the other hotspots moving to somewhere more affordable. Jobs.
    The 06:51 gets you into KGX for 08:30:

    https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C28967/2024-02-27/detailed

    That property is only a 15 minute walk from the station. Plenty of people do similar journeys from Hampshire and Wiltshire. Here's what you get for a similar price in Salisbury which is a similar commute to London:

    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/137356181#/?channel=RES_BUY

    Okay, maybe there are more good jobs in Salisbury than Retford but plenty commute up to London.
    So its about a 4.5-5hr roundtrip commute to work each day when things go well. Works for some. For others life is too short.
    My daily fifteen minute round trip walking commute is one of the reasons I can work over 55 hours every week
    My commute takes me 14 seconds as I slither from my bed to the table with a can of iced coffee

    I still resent even that, slightly
    Isn't your "commute" more a metaphysical exercise than a logistical one?
    Yes but it is real

    I’ve actually tried not even doing that, ie staying in bed and lifting up the laptop

    It doesn’t work. You need some physical shift from the place of sleep to the place of work, even if it is only ten feet and 48 seconds

    Must be some evolutionary reason for it. Or maybe metabolic. You have to stand to get the blood flowing to the brain?
    Didn't Proust stay in bed and write?
    Indeed but he also did depraved things with rodents, some of us are better than that
    LOL.

    Did he? I dont know that one.

    No way am I googling it though...
    Sensible. It is extraordinary, in a bad way

    Various people have tried to dismiss it as nonsense, but it is well corroborated
    Is it now? I thought it was just Gide being, er, catty.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,755
    Did we do Navalny’s wife being suspended from Twitter?
  • boulay said:

    Elon suspends Mrs Nevalny's X account because she has been nasty to Vlad the Impaler.

    https://meduza.io/en/news/2024/02/20/x-formerly-twitter-suspends-yulia-navalnaya-s-account

    I wonder if there is a line he will cross where he becomes a target for an accident at the hands of Ukrainian operatives.
    Apparently account is now reinstated
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,939
    dixiedean said:

    Mbappe signs for Real.
    To be paid £192m over 5 years plus image rights.

    Fantastic player but the economics of spending that much on a single player out of a team of 11 escapes me.

    When United bought Ronaldo for the second time the fee was covered by the sale of shirts with his name on them. Even Real are going to have a hard time managing that.
  • AlsoLeiAlsoLei Posts: 1,485
    Selebian said:

    So, off-topic but: "Tate & Lyle's Golden Syrup rebrand drops dead lion"
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68347249

    What? What?

    I'd never realised it was a dead lion. Not that I'd ever looked closely, but I'd probably have assumed it was sleeping after enjoying a tasty snack of partially inverted refiner's syrup and was about to be bothered by some bees/flies.

    Mm, a dead lion with flies swarming round it. Always a WTF moment when you notice that...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,901

    The DM has a paywalled article on the growth of Islam among the native working class: "Why white British children as young as eight are pledging their lives to Allah"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13101005/wokery-white-British-children-converting-Islam.html

    Other films seen by the Mail reveal English teenage males turning to Islam. Lancashire’s Masjid as-Sunnah establishment in Accrington has posted one of Mitch, 17, solemnly saying the Shahada as he sits on the floor next to an imam last year. He stands up afterwards and, smiling, is hugged by members of the congregation.

    In nearby Nelson, teenager Dylan, in a grey hoodie, is filmed accepting the Shahada in a local mosque in 2022.

    A message posted under the online film written by him and signed in his full name a year later says: ‘It’s me on this video . . . It is still the best decision of my life and all the blessings that come with Islam.’

    As predicted by French novelist and enfant terrible, Houellebecq.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,760
    moonshine said:

    Did we do Navalny’s wife being suspended from Twitter?

    What an utter arse Musk is.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,525
    AlsoLei said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    algarkirk said:
    This article is so out of touch. Difficult life on £60k a year? What about the other 90%.

    https://moneysprout.co.uk/what-percentage-of-the-uk-earns-over-60k
    "The latest UK data shows that earning over £60k per year puts you in the top 10% of earners in the country. This is the equivalent to the 90th percentile. If you are earning more than £60k per year you are making more than 90% of the working population."
    Is it out of touch, or just demonstrating how messed up things are, if even some of those on £60k aren't finding life peachy ?

    The story is really about the "one in three chance of someone earning a middle income today not doing so next year", alongside historically high housing costs, rather than high income hardship.

    So the headline is just the usual attention grabbing hyperbole, but the problems behind it exist for many more than those on £60k.
    I think it is out of touch. Millions of people manage on £20k a year, even in London. If you're having problems on £60k you need to reduce your spending.
    All that says is that we're much poorer as a society than we used to be.

    60k is a head teacher's salary. 40 years ago, a head teacher in London would have been able to buy a house. 20 years ago, they'd have been able to rent a 2 bedroom flat and start a family. That's not possible today.

    You say that they should live with it. Cut their cloth. Accept that we're all living in reduced circumstances.

    Except... we're not, are we?

    Whichever measure you use - GDP, GNP, adjusted for PPP or not, we're better off as a society than we were 20 years ago. And much better off than 40 years ago.

    So something's gone badly wrong, and it's entirely reasonable to ask what's happened and what might be done to set it right.
    I think it's the framing of the article that's understandably turning people off.

    The headline (and tbf that's drawn from the report the article is about) is just a piece of (probably counterproductive) attention grabbing. But the combined effects of unprecedentedly high housing costs, and job insecurity, are universal.
    Let's not pretend they don't exist just because they might also affect people better off than us.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,760
    DavidL said:

    dixiedean said:

    Mbappe signs for Real.
    To be paid £192m over 5 years plus image rights.

    Fantastic player but the economics of spending that much on a single player out of a team of 11 escapes me.

    When United bought Ronaldo for the second time the fee was covered by the sale of shirts with his name on them. Even Real are going to have a hard time managing that.
    Mbappe and Bellingham in the same team will be something to behold.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,515
    DavidL said:

    Also looks like whoever predicted that Mr Ezedi would be found in the Thames has been proven right: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68238460

    No need for a round of applause, I'm not @Leon ...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,525
    edited February 20
    Selebian said:

    So, off-topic but: "Tate & Lyle's Golden Syrup rebrand drops dead lion"
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68347249

    What? What?

    I'd never realised it was a dead lion. Not that I'd ever looked closely, but I'd probably have assumed it was sleeping after enjoying a tasty snack of partially inverted refiner's syrup and was about to be bothered by some bees/flies.

    You're clearly a sad victim of the decline in religious education in schools.
    Or "Scripture", as it used to be called.

    (Judges 14;14)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,771

    I see Prince William has become involved in politics.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68343334

    So boring. No wonder the monarchy is losing its appeal to the young

    Imagine if he’d come out and said ‘I find these videos from Gaza deeply absorbing, but there aren’t enough of them, let’s wipe out Gaza and the Gazans forever’

    That would have been maybe a shade more controversial, but it would have put the crown front and foremost in the public mind, restoring their relevance. Then we could have had images of princess kate making bandages for the IDF, maybe vids of Meghan doing uzi noises as harry in a yarmulkah shoots at raccoons in the yard, and so forth

    Pff
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,939
    AlsoLei said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    algarkirk said:
    This article is so out of touch. Difficult life on £60k a year? What about the other 90%.

    https://moneysprout.co.uk/what-percentage-of-the-uk-earns-over-60k
    "The latest UK data shows that earning over £60k per year puts you in the top 10% of earners in the country. This is the equivalent to the 90th percentile. If you are earning more than £60k per year you are making more than 90% of the working population."
    Is it out of touch, or just demonstrating how messed up things are, if even some of those on £60k aren't finding life peachy ?

    The story is really about the "one in three chance of someone earning a middle income today not doing so next year", alongside historically high housing costs, rather than high income hardship.

    So the headline is just the usual attention grabbing hyperbole, but the problems behind it exist for many more than those on £60k.
    I think it is out of touch. Millions of people manage on £20k a year, even in London. If you're having problems on £60k you need to reduce your spending.
    All that says is that we're much poorer as a society than we used to be.

    60k is a head teacher's salary. 40 years ago, a head teacher in London would have been able to buy a house. 20 years ago, they'd have been able to rent a 2 bedroom flat and start a family. That's not possible today.

    You say that they should live with it. Cut their cloth. Accept that we're all living in reduced circumstances.

    Except... we're not, are we?

    Whichever measure you use - GDP, GNP, adjusted for PPP or not, we're better off as a society than we were 20 years ago. And much better off than 40 years ago.

    So something's gone badly wrong, and it's entirely reasonable to ask what's happened and what might be done to set it right.
    The other thing that is weird is the gini coefficient for the UK has been in a fairly narrow band for over 40 years now:
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/872472/gini-index-of-the-united-kingdom/

    The latest figure has it down slightly on the previous year. So it is not as if society as a whole is getting more unequal, at least so far as incomes are concerned.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,518
    DavidL said:

    dixiedean said:

    Mbappe signs for Real.
    To be paid £192m over 5 years plus image rights.

    Fantastic player but the economics of spending that much on a single player out of a team of 11 escapes me.

    When United bought Ronaldo for the second time the fee was covered by the sale of shirts with his name on them. Even Real are going to have a hard time managing that.
    It’s not a bad amount at all. If you think a player like Declan Rice cost £100m then think what Mbappe would cost if he wasn’t going to be a free transfer.

    So if you take away £100m the remaining £92m works out at what Man Utd pay Rashford weekly over 5 years and Mbappé just has the tiniest of edges over Rashford as a player.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,806
    edited February 20
    Nigelb said:

    Selebian said:

    So, off-topic but: "Tate & Lyle's Golden Syrup rebrand drops dead lion"
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68347249

    What? What?

    I'd never realised it was a dead lion. Not that I'd ever looked closely, but I'd probably have assumed it was sleeping after enjoying a tasty snack of partially inverted refiner's syrup and was about to be bothered by some bees/flies.

    You're clearly a sad victim of the decline in religious education in schools.
    Or "Scripture", as it used to be called.

    (Judges 14;14)
    Ah, yes.

    "And he said unto them, 'Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of the strong came forth sweetness'. And they could not in three days expound the riddle. And he said to them, 'Out of the eater came something to eat. Out of the strong came something sweet. Guys! Syrup dammit, it's syrup. Now go make some syrup and stick it in a tin with a dead lion and some bees on the label'."

    I missed that lesson in school :disappointed:
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,771
    DavidL said:

    dixiedean said:

    Mbappe signs for Real.
    To be paid £192m over 5 years plus image rights.

    Fantastic player but the economics of spending that much on a single player out of a team of 11 escapes me.

    When United bought Ronaldo for the second time the fee was covered by the sale of shirts with his name on them. Even Real are going to have a hard time managing that.
    It maintains Real’s image as the ultimate club

    They will have two of the three best players in the world. Bellingham and mbappe

    Only haaland left
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,199
    edited February 20
    Selebian said:

    So, off-topic but: "Tate & Lyle's Golden Syrup rebrand drops dead lion"
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68347249

    What? What?

    I'd never realised it was a dead lion. Not that I'd ever looked closely, but I'd probably have assumed it was sleeping after enjoying a tasty snack of partially inverted refiner's syrup and was about to be bothered by some bees/flies.

    "out of the strong came forth sweetness"

    Samson killed a lion. Some bees built a hive in the corpse. Samson noticed and posed a riddle to the Philistines ("Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of the strong came forth sweetness."). Like every tale with a riddle, it did not end well.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Judges 14&version=KJV

    Millennia later Tate & Lyle used the biblical quote as a motto for their product, and (rather sadly IMHO) now see fit to abandon it.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,481
    edited February 20

    The DM has a paywalled article on the growth of Islam among the native working class: "Why white British children as young as eight are pledging their lives to Allah"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13101005/wokery-white-British-children-converting-Islam.html

    Other films seen by the Mail reveal English teenage males turning to Islam. Lancashire’s Masjid as-Sunnah establishment in Accrington has posted one of Mitch, 17, solemnly saying the Shahada as he sits on the floor next to an imam last year. He stands up afterwards and, smiling, is hugged by members of the congregation.

    In nearby Nelson, teenager Dylan, in a grey hoodie, is filmed accepting the Shahada in a local mosque in 2022.

    A message posted under the online film written by him and signed in his full name a year later says: ‘It’s me on this video . . . It is still the best decision of my life and all the blessings that come with Islam.’

    Full article archived here.

    DM paywall appears to be about as good as the Telegraph's.

    https://archive.ph/zHk1O

    Two questions after reading the article:

    1 - What is the DM trying to do here, and why is the narrative written as it is?
    2 - Are the alleged events recounted a problem?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,525
    moonshine said:

    Did we do Navalny’s wife being suspended from Twitter?

    Just now reinstated.
  • tlg86 said:

    algarkirk said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-68341244

    AG to appeal the Nottingham triple killing sentence. SFAICS it isn't actually appealable because of the agreement as to his mental state. One to watch with interest.

    Yes I was puzzled about whether the Attorney General knows the law or is just playing to the anti-woke crowd.
    Is it anti-woke? Sky News seem to be making a big thing of it so it seems unlikely to be an anti-woke cause.

    I have no issues with manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility. But life should mean life in such cases and the judge left it open to him one day being released.
    The only way he would be released is by being paroled from prison. There is no parole directly from a secure hospital, so paradoxically he is less likely to be released now than if campaigners had their way.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    The DM has a paywalled article on the growth of Islam among the native working class: "Why white British children as young as eight are pledging their lives to Allah"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13101005/wokery-white-British-children-converting-Islam.html

    Other films seen by the Mail reveal English teenage males turning to Islam. Lancashire’s Masjid as-Sunnah establishment in Accrington has posted one of Mitch, 17, solemnly saying the Shahada as he sits on the floor next to an imam last year. He stands up afterwards and, smiling, is hugged by members of the congregation.

    In nearby Nelson, teenager Dylan, in a grey hoodie, is filmed accepting the Shahada in a local mosque in 2022.

    A message posted under the online film written by him and signed in his full name a year later says: ‘It’s me on this video . . . It is still the best decision of my life and all the blessings that come with Islam.’

    Why does the Daily Mail think is it not OK for white British people to take up Islam, but it is fine for back Africans (for example) to take up Christianity?

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,636

    moonshine said:

    Did we do Navalny’s wife being suspended from Twitter?

    What an utter arse Musk is.
    He is, but I think this is another example of relying on automated systems. Basketball Ireland, for example, recently had their Instagram account deactivated for no discernible reason - one presumes the account was reported maliciously by either a lot of pro-Palestinians, upset that Ireland played a basketball game against Israel, or a lot of pro-Israelis, upset that the players didn't shake the hands of their Israeli opponents in protest at the war in Gaza, or a combination of the two.

    I'd assume that if an account receives a deluge of reports the default automatic action is to take it offline until it can be reviewed by a human. This is then open to abuse by bot networks and pressure groups.
  • Taz said:

    AlsoLei said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    eek said:

    I see Birmingham are closing 25 out of its 36 libraries to reduce costs

    Penny-wise and pound-foolish.

    If every there was a public good that was an investment in our future it was a public library.
    One of the richest countries in the world cannot afford public libraries.

    What a pitiful low this generation of tories has brought us to.

    The election can't come soon enough.
    It does feel bleakly emblematic

    I’m pretty sure it’s not entirely the fault of the Tory government, but they are so unpopular they are gonna get saddled with all the bad news. I really do wonder if they might get wiped out entirely, a la Canadienne
    As has been discussed here before, the problems with some local govt is down to inept management by previous administrations. They tend to all get lumped in with the ones who are suffering from other issues related to the grant.

    Nottingham City and Brum being two examples.

    Brum is facing a massive equal pay claim it cannot afford. Has an IT project they have massively overspent on as well as other things. Money spunked on the Commonwealth games, how has that worked out ?

    But, yeah, it's all down to the govt.
    Speaking of which, does anyone know what the situation is with the next two editions of the games?

    As far as I can see, for 2026, there's still no replacement host after Victoria pulled out. Scotland and London had both been making noises about bids - but in December the UK govt said no, citing the poor return on the Birmingham games.

    And for 2030, there are no bidders. Two potential Canadian bids have been withdrawn, and no-one else seems interesting in stepping forward.

    So is that it? No more Commonwealth Games? And if so, will anyone care?

    I think the Commonwealth Games has probably run its course. There was talk of Birmingham again but that is not likely now.

    I don't think many people will care. Maybe the athletes who get a chance of a medal they would not get at an olympics, but few people otherwise.
    Trouble is, if you take out the Commonwealth Games, you reduce the value of the Commonwealth. Of course, many politicians see it as an anachronism anyway.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,693
    Selebian said:

    So, off-topic but: "Tate & Lyle's Golden Syrup rebrand drops dead lion"
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68347249

    What? What?

    I'd never realised it was a dead lion. Not that I'd ever looked closely, but I'd probably have assumed it was sleeping after enjoying a tasty snack of partially inverted refiner's syrup and was about to be bothered by some bees/flies.

    It's a reference to the OT story of Samson, see Judges 14.8-14.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,584

    moonshine said:

    Did we do Navalny’s wife being suspended from Twitter?

    What an utter arse Musk is.
    He is, but I think this is another example of relying on automated systems. Basketball Ireland, for example, recently had their Instagram account deactivated for no discernible reason - one presumes the account was reported maliciously by either a lot of pro-Palestinians, upset that Ireland played a basketball game against Israel, or a lot of pro-Israelis, upset that the players didn't shake the hands of their Israeli opponents in protest at the war in Gaza, or a combination of the two.

    I'd assume that if an account receives a deluge of reports the default automatic action is to take it offline until it can be reviewed by a human. This is then open to abuse by bot networks and pressure groups.
    YouTube has a massive problem with this - apparently a “prank” is to convince the automated systems that original content is stolen and the stolen is original.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,481
    AlsoLei said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    algarkirk said:
    This article is so out of touch. Difficult life on £60k a year? What about the other 90%.

    https://moneysprout.co.uk/what-percentage-of-the-uk-earns-over-60k
    "The latest UK data shows that earning over £60k per year puts you in the top 10% of earners in the country. This is the equivalent to the 90th percentile. If you are earning more than £60k per year you are making more than 90% of the working population."
    Is it out of touch, or just demonstrating how messed up things are, if even some of those on £60k aren't finding life peachy ?

    The story is really about the "one in three chance of someone earning a middle income today not doing so next year", alongside historically high housing costs, rather than high income hardship.

    So the headline is just the usual attention grabbing hyperbole, but the problems behind it exist for many more than those on £60k.
    I think it is out of touch. Millions of people manage on £20k a year, even in London. If you're having problems on £60k you need to reduce your spending.
    All that says is that we're much poorer as a society than we used to be.

    60k is a head teacher's salary. 40 years ago, a head teacher in London would have been able to buy a house. 20 years ago, they'd have been able to rent a 2 bedroom flat and start a family. That's not possible today.

    You say that they should live with it. Cut their cloth. Accept that we're all living in reduced circumstances.

    Except... we're not, are we?

    Whichever measure you use - GDP, GNP, adjusted for PPP or not, we're better off as a society than we were 20 years ago. And much better off than 40 years ago.

    So something's gone badly wrong, and it's entirely reasonable to ask what's happened and what might be done to set it right.
    A head teacher's salary in London is in the range. £54,685 to £139,891.

    I suggest that a representative salary for a Head Teacher in London, which is the place being addressed, would be more like £80k to £90k.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,901
    algarkirk said:

    Calocane (triple homicide) sentencing remarks here:

    https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Calocane-sentencing-remarks.pdf

    Can anyone see what the AG and the Court of Appeal might find wrong with it? I can't.

    If the Clozapine works then everyone has got a major problem.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,233
    Nigelb said:

    .

    148grss said:

    Nigelb said:

    148grss said:

    Nigelb said:

    148grss said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Isn't the answer to marginal tax woes quite simply to salary sacrifice more into your pension ?

    I mean the annual allowance is 60 grand a year !

    Yes, time and time again I get this advice, but with two kids, a mortgage and big bills to pay I need the money now.

    It's a choice between deferring near 100% for at least 15 years (and getting nothing now) and taking a 60% haircut, but getting 40% now.
    Maybe you should just live within your means - stop buying avocado toast and such. That's the advice that always seems to come to my generation when we complain about our income being shit. Bootstraps, pull them up by, etc.
    You're missing the point.
    No one's asking you to feel sympathy for Casino - just recognise that incentives which tend to get people like him to move overseas don't work out to our advantage either.
    If we prioritise the interests of the rich, it still won't help the average person. Yes, globalisation has increased in the last half century, but all the mechanisms to tax people and corporations still exist - governments just refuse to use them based on that very logic (if we did they'd just leave!). If you have Student Loans you have to tell SFE if you're going abroad and they still take your money - I don't see why the taxman shouldn't be able to as well. If an individual benefitted from public spending (in the form of growing up here with a NHS, national education, general operational road infrastructure and so on) then that, in part, helped get them to where they are as an adult - wherever they are.
    Who's arguing we "prioritise the interests of the rich" ?
    Saying that we should remove a tax distortion is not that.

    As far as taxing income from those resident abroad is concerned, only the US tries that. It's not a spectacular success.
    All that would do is ensure such people never return to the UK.

    You're confusing what you would like in an ideal world run by you, with what is possible.
    Saying "if we tax them more they'll just leave" is prioritising the rich. We don't say about poverty, for example, that we can't afford not to feed all the children in the UK that are going hungry (which is estimated to affect around 25% of households, roughly £3.7 million children) because it will make the country a worse place. But we bend over backwards to accommodate rich people and an ideology where they piss down on us and we should be grateful for that trickle.
    No; you're mixing up different things.

    All I'm arguing is that tax distortions (and this goes for the other end of the tax scale too) tend to be counterproductive, irrespective of the tax take. A higher percentage on earnings above 100k would be preferable to a very high marginal rate on the small band of income above £100k, and a lower rate above that band - which is what we have now.

    Even Nick P, who is much closer to your politics than I am, sees that it's stupid.

    Should we be spending more most to provide (for example) free school meals to all primary school children ? Yes, we should.
    But that's an entirely seperate argument.
    The distortion is bad. Fix the weird quirk at that level. However, Casino_Royale appeared to me not to be complaining about the quirk, but arguing that he's not rich just because he earns £100k.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,199
    DavidL said:

    AlsoLei said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    algarkirk said:
    This article is so out of touch. Difficult life on £60k a year? What about the other 90%.

    https://moneysprout.co.uk/what-percentage-of-the-uk-earns-over-60k
    "The latest UK data shows that earning over £60k per year puts you in the top 10% of earners in the country. This is the equivalent to the 90th percentile. If you are earning more than £60k per year you are making more than 90% of the working population."
    Is it out of touch, or just demonstrating how messed up things are, if even some of those on £60k aren't finding life peachy ?

    The story is really about the "one in three chance of someone earning a middle income today not doing so next year", alongside historically high housing costs, rather than high income hardship.

    So the headline is just the usual attention grabbing hyperbole, but the problems behind it exist for many more than those on £60k.
    I think it is out of touch. Millions of people manage on £20k a year, even in London. If you're having problems on £60k you need to reduce your spending.
    All that says is that we're much poorer as a society than we used to be.

    60k is a head teacher's salary. 40 years ago, a head teacher in London would have been able to buy a house. 20 years ago, they'd have been able to rent a 2 bedroom flat and start a family. That's not possible today.

    You say that they should live with it. Cut their cloth. Accept that we're all living in reduced circumstances.

    Except... we're not, are we?

    Whichever measure you use - GDP, GNP, adjusted for PPP or not, we're better off as a society than we were 20 years ago. And much better off than 40 years ago.

    So something's gone badly wrong, and it's entirely reasonable to ask what's happened and what might be done to set it right.
    The other thing that is weird is the gini coefficient for the UK has been in a fairly narrow band for over 40 years now:
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/872472/gini-index-of-the-united-kingdom/

    The latest figure has it down slightly on the previous year. So it is not as if society as a whole is getting more unequal, at least so far as incomes are concerned.
    Another way of interpreting that graph is that we were equal-ish in the Butskellite era, leaped up dramatically during the first part of the neoliberal era under Thatcher, Major tried to get it down but failed, Blair was intensely relaxed aboiut inequality and papered over the cracks with NHS, but following the fall of the neolibs it has become irksome.

    Plus we tend to compare ourself to the prosperous and are irked, instead of looking at the less lucky (see today and previous days for examples). In past years our scope was ourselves - Harold Wilson went on holiday to the Scillies - but now we are comparing ourselves to Kardashians and Musk, and are not content.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,901
    eristdoof said:

    The DM has a paywalled article on the growth of Islam among the native working class: "Why white British children as young as eight are pledging their lives to Allah"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13101005/wokery-white-British-children-converting-Islam.html

    Other films seen by the Mail reveal English teenage males turning to Islam. Lancashire’s Masjid as-Sunnah establishment in Accrington has posted one of Mitch, 17, solemnly saying the Shahada as he sits on the floor next to an imam last year. He stands up afterwards and, smiling, is hugged by members of the congregation.

    In nearby Nelson, teenager Dylan, in a grey hoodie, is filmed accepting the Shahada in a local mosque in 2022.

    A message posted under the online film written by him and signed in his full name a year later says: ‘It’s me on this video . . . It is still the best decision of my life and all the blessings that come with Islam.’

    Why does the Daily Mail think is it not OK for white British people to take up Islam, but it is fine for back Africans (for example) to take up Christianity?

    Take a wild guess.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,753
    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    algarkirk said:
    This article is so out of touch. Difficult life on £60k a year? What about the other 90%.

    https://moneysprout.co.uk/what-percentage-of-the-uk-earns-over-60k
    "The latest UK data shows that earning over £60k per year puts you in the top 10% of earners in the country. This is the equivalent to the 90th percentile. If you are earning more than £60k per year you are making more than 90% of the working population."
    Is it out of touch, or just demonstrating how messed up things are, if even some of those on £60k aren't finding life peachy ?

    The story is really about the "one in three chance of someone earning a middle income today not doing so next year", alongside historically high housing costs, rather than high income hardship.

    So the headline is just the usual attention grabbing hyperbole, but the problems behind it exist for many more than those on £60k.
    Definitely the state pension of £10.6k should be cut to help out some of these people on middle incomes of £60k.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,036
    viewcode said:

    Selebian said:

    So, off-topic but: "Tate & Lyle's Golden Syrup rebrand drops dead lion"
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68347249

    What? What?

    I'd never realised it was a dead lion. Not that I'd ever looked closely, but I'd probably have assumed it was sleeping after enjoying a tasty snack of partially inverted refiner's syrup and was about to be bothered by some bees/flies.

    "out of the strong came forth sweetness"

    Samson killed a lion. Some bees built a hive in the corpse. Samson noticed and posed a riddle to the Philistines ("Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of the strong came forth sweetness."). Like every tale with a riddle, it did not end well.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Judges 14&version=KJV

    Millennia later Tate & Lyle used the biblical quote as a motto for their product, and (rather sadly IMHO) now see fit to abandon it.
    I see they got a rentaquote about religious exclusion. But a simpler explanation offers itself. If you haven't been taught the Biblical story (or were ill the day it was taught), you're sure going to be worried about your Lyle's Golden Syrup. Flies?! Rottinb meat!? WTF??
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,628
    All that Labour needs to do on the probationary period / unfair dismissal nonsense that we have at the moment is to ensure that notice periods apply from day one in new jobs, not after a year or six months etc. The current system, where many employees have to concede all their severance rights to move jobs, militates against labour-markety liquidity, as it creates a huge disincentive to move. If the new employer wants you, he can offer you notice from day one – that is a reasonable bargain.
  • Taz said:

    AlsoLei said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    eek said:

    I see Birmingham are closing 25 out of its 36 libraries to reduce costs

    Penny-wise and pound-foolish.

    If every there was a public good that was an investment in our future it was a public library.
    One of the richest countries in the world cannot afford public libraries.

    What a pitiful low this generation of tories has brought us to.

    The election can't come soon enough.
    It does feel bleakly emblematic

    I’m pretty sure it’s not entirely the fault of the Tory government, but they are so unpopular they are gonna get saddled with all the bad news. I really do wonder if they might get wiped out entirely, a la Canadienne
    As has been discussed here before, the problems with some local govt is down to inept management by previous administrations. They tend to all get lumped in with the ones who are suffering from other issues related to the grant.

    Nottingham City and Brum being two examples.

    Brum is facing a massive equal pay claim it cannot afford. Has an IT project they have massively overspent on as well as other things. Money spunked on the Commonwealth games, how has that worked out ?

    But, yeah, it's all down to the govt.
    Speaking of which, does anyone know what the situation is with the next two editions of the games?

    As far as I can see, for 2026, there's still no replacement host after Victoria pulled out. Scotland and London had both been making noises about bids - but in December the UK govt said no, citing the poor return on the Birmingham games.

    And for 2030, there are no bidders. Two potential Canadian bids have been withdrawn, and no-one else seems interesting in stepping forward.

    So is that it? No more Commonwealth Games? And if so, will anyone care?

    I think the Commonwealth Games has probably run its course. There was talk of Birmingham again but that is not likely now.

    I don't think many people will care. Maybe the athletes who get a chance of a medal they would not get at an olympics, but few people otherwise.
    Trouble is, if you take out the Commonwealth Games, you reduce the value of the Commonwealth. Of course, many politicians see it as an anachronism anyway.
    The Commonwealth is an anachronistic vestige of Empire. Let it expire 100 years after its creation.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,444

    Nigelb said:

    .

    148grss said:

    Nigelb said:

    148grss said:

    Nigelb said:

    148grss said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Isn't the answer to marginal tax woes quite simply to salary sacrifice more into your pension ?

    I mean the annual allowance is 60 grand a year !

    Yes, time and time again I get this advice, but with two kids, a mortgage and big bills to pay I need the money now.

    It's a choice between deferring near 100% for at least 15 years (and getting nothing now) and taking a 60% haircut, but getting 40% now.
    Maybe you should just live within your means - stop buying avocado toast and such. That's the advice that always seems to come to my generation when we complain about our income being shit. Bootstraps, pull them up by, etc.
    You're missing the point.
    No one's asking you to feel sympathy for Casino - just recognise that incentives which tend to get people like him to move overseas don't work out to our advantage either.
    If we prioritise the interests of the rich, it still won't help the average person. Yes, globalisation has increased in the last half century, but all the mechanisms to tax people and corporations still exist - governments just refuse to use them based on that very logic (if we did they'd just leave!). If you have Student Loans you have to tell SFE if you're going abroad and they still take your money - I don't see why the taxman shouldn't be able to as well. If an individual benefitted from public spending (in the form of growing up here with a NHS, national education, general operational road infrastructure and so on) then that, in part, helped get them to where they are as an adult - wherever they are.
    Who's arguing we "prioritise the interests of the rich" ?
    Saying that we should remove a tax distortion is not that.

    As far as taxing income from those resident abroad is concerned, only the US tries that. It's not a spectacular success.
    All that would do is ensure such people never return to the UK.

    You're confusing what you would like in an ideal world run by you, with what is possible.
    Saying "if we tax them more they'll just leave" is prioritising the rich. We don't say about poverty, for example, that we can't afford not to feed all the children in the UK that are going hungry (which is estimated to affect around 25% of households, roughly £3.7 million children) because it will make the country a worse place. But we bend over backwards to accommodate rich people and an ideology where they piss down on us and we should be grateful for that trickle.
    No; you're mixing up different things.

    All I'm arguing is that tax distortions (and this goes for the other end of the tax scale too) tend to be counterproductive, irrespective of the tax take. A higher percentage on earnings above 100k would be preferable to a very high marginal rate on the small band of income above £100k, and a lower rate above that band - which is what we have now.

    Even Nick P, who is much closer to your politics than I am, sees that it's stupid.

    Should we be spending more most to provide (for example) free school meals to all primary school children ? Yes, we should.
    But that's an entirely seperate argument.
    The distortion is bad. Fix the weird quirk at that level. However, Casino_Royale appeared to me not to be complaining about the quirk, but arguing that he's not rich just because he earns £100k.
    I read it as he earns a lot but because of his location and age of children he needs to spend a lot as well.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,233
    eristdoof said:

    The DM has a paywalled article on the growth of Islam among the native working class: "Why white British children as young as eight are pledging their lives to Allah"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13101005/wokery-white-British-children-converting-Islam.html

    Other films seen by the Mail reveal English teenage males turning to Islam. Lancashire’s Masjid as-Sunnah establishment in Accrington has posted one of Mitch, 17, solemnly saying the Shahada as he sits on the floor next to an imam last year. He stands up afterwards and, smiling, is hugged by members of the congregation.

    In nearby Nelson, teenager Dylan, in a grey hoodie, is filmed accepting the Shahada in a local mosque in 2022.

    A message posted under the online film written by him and signed in his full name a year later says: ‘It’s me on this video . . . It is still the best decision of my life and all the blessings that come with Islam.’

    Why does the Daily Mail think is it not OK for white British people to take up Islam, but it is fine for back Africans (for example) to take up Christianity?

    I thought the Daily Mail thought anyone converting to Christianity was just an evil asylum seeker cheating the system. They want white people to be Christian and brown people to be Muslim.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,755

    moonshine said:

    Did we do Navalny’s wife being suspended from Twitter?

    What an utter arse Musk is.
    He is, but I think this is another example of relying on automated systems. Basketball Ireland, for example, recently had their Instagram account deactivated for no discernible reason - one presumes the account was reported maliciously by either a lot of pro-Palestinians, upset that Ireland played a basketball game against Israel, or a lot of pro-Israelis, upset that the players didn't shake the hands of their Israeli opponents in protest at the war in Gaza, or a combination of the two.

    I'd assume that if an account receives a deluge of reports the default automatic action is to take it offline until it can be reviewed by a human. This is then open to abuse by bot networks and pressure groups.
    YouTube has a massive problem with this - apparently a “prank” is to convince the automated systems that original content is stolen and the stolen is original.
    It’s easy to blame Musk and it’s possible he woke up with the hump after a late night - he was tweeting at 3am Texas, the suspension came in at 7am texas (5am at Twitter hq). But it’s more likely it was a Russian agent / bot campaign to get it taken down.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,952

    Nigelb said:

    .

    148grss said:

    Nigelb said:

    148grss said:

    Nigelb said:

    148grss said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Isn't the answer to marginal tax woes quite simply to salary sacrifice more into your pension ?

    I mean the annual allowance is 60 grand a year !

    Yes, time and time again I get this advice, but with two kids, a mortgage and big bills to pay I need the money now.

    It's a choice between deferring near 100% for at least 15 years (and getting nothing now) and taking a 60% haircut, but getting 40% now.
    Maybe you should just live within your means - stop buying avocado toast and such. That's the advice that always seems to come to my generation when we complain about our income being shit. Bootstraps, pull them up by, etc.
    You're missing the point.
    No one's asking you to feel sympathy for Casino - just recognise that incentives which tend to get people like him to move overseas don't work out to our advantage either.
    If we prioritise the interests of the rich, it still won't help the average person. Yes, globalisation has increased in the last half century, but all the mechanisms to tax people and corporations still exist - governments just refuse to use them based on that very logic (if we did they'd just leave!). If you have Student Loans you have to tell SFE if you're going abroad and they still take your money - I don't see why the taxman shouldn't be able to as well. If an individual benefitted from public spending (in the form of growing up here with a NHS, national education, general operational road infrastructure and so on) then that, in part, helped get them to where they are as an adult - wherever they are.
    Who's arguing we "prioritise the interests of the rich" ?
    Saying that we should remove a tax distortion is not that.

    As far as taxing income from those resident abroad is concerned, only the US tries that. It's not a spectacular success.
    All that would do is ensure such people never return to the UK.

    You're confusing what you would like in an ideal world run by you, with what is possible.
    Saying "if we tax them more they'll just leave" is prioritising the rich. We don't say about poverty, for example, that we can't afford not to feed all the children in the UK that are going hungry (which is estimated to affect around 25% of households, roughly £3.7 million children) because it will make the country a worse place. But we bend over backwards to accommodate rich people and an ideology where they piss down on us and we should be grateful for that trickle.
    No; you're mixing up different things.

    All I'm arguing is that tax distortions (and this goes for the other end of the tax scale too) tend to be counterproductive, irrespective of the tax take. A higher percentage on earnings above 100k would be preferable to a very high marginal rate on the small band of income above £100k, and a lower rate above that band - which is what we have now.

    Even Nick P, who is much closer to your politics than I am, sees that it's stupid.

    Should we be spending more most to provide (for example) free school meals to all primary school children ? Yes, we should.
    But that's an entirely seperate argument.
    The distortion is bad. Fix the weird quirk at that level. However, Casino_Royale appeared to me not to be complaining about the quirk, but arguing that he's not rich just because he earns £100k.
    The people who earn £100k will range from bankrupts to multi millionaires. Not all are rich, although even the bankrupts will tend to have better financial options than most.

    Conversely there are lots of millionaires with sub £30k incomes, who imo are rich.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,771

    eristdoof said:

    The DM has a paywalled article on the growth of Islam among the native working class: "Why white British children as young as eight are pledging their lives to Allah"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13101005/wokery-white-British-children-converting-Islam.html

    Other films seen by the Mail reveal English teenage males turning to Islam. Lancashire’s Masjid as-Sunnah establishment in Accrington has posted one of Mitch, 17, solemnly saying the Shahada as he sits on the floor next to an imam last year. He stands up afterwards and, smiling, is hugged by members of the congregation.

    In nearby Nelson, teenager Dylan, in a grey hoodie, is filmed accepting the Shahada in a local mosque in 2022.

    A message posted under the online film written by him and signed in his full name a year later says: ‘It’s me on this video . . . It is still the best decision of my life and all the blessings that come with Islam.’

    Why does the Daily Mail think is it not OK for white British people to take up Islam, but it is fine for back Africans (for example) to take up Christianity?

    Take a wild guess.
    Perhaps you could give us a rundown of

    Christian converts who have attempted mass murder on British streets

    and

    Islamic converts who have done the same?

    Hint: you're not allowed to include Muslims pretending to convert to Christianity so as to claim asylum
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,423
    viewcode said:

    Selebian said:

    So, off-topic but: "Tate & Lyle's Golden Syrup rebrand drops dead lion"
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68347249

    What? What?

    I'd never realised it was a dead lion. Not that I'd ever looked closely, but I'd probably have assumed it was sleeping after enjoying a tasty snack of partially inverted refiner's syrup and was about to be bothered by some bees/flies.

    "out of the strong came forth sweetness"

    Samson killed a lion. Some bees built a hive in the corpse. Samson noticed and posed a riddle to the Philistines ("Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of the strong came forth sweetness."). Like every tale with a riddle, it did not end well.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Judges 14&version=KJV

    Millennia later Tate & Lyle used the biblical quote as a motto for their product, and (rather sadly IMHO) now see fit to abandon it.
    They could replace it with the bit where David meets Saul's bride price for Michal.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,525
    .
    Carnyx said:

    viewcode said:

    Selebian said:

    So, off-topic but: "Tate & Lyle's Golden Syrup rebrand drops dead lion"
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68347249

    What? What?

    I'd never realised it was a dead lion. Not that I'd ever looked closely, but I'd probably have assumed it was sleeping after enjoying a tasty snack of partially inverted refiner's syrup and was about to be bothered by some bees/flies.

    "out of the strong came forth sweetness"

    Samson killed a lion. Some bees built a hive in the corpse. Samson noticed and posed a riddle to the Philistines ("Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of the strong came forth sweetness."). Like every tale with a riddle, it did not end well.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Judges 14&version=KJV

    Millennia later Tate & Lyle used the biblical quote as a motto for their product, and (rather sadly IMHO) now see fit to abandon it.
    I see they got a rentaquote about religious exclusion. But a simpler explanation offers itself. If you haven't been taught the Biblical story (or were ill the day it was taught), you're sure going to be worried about your Lyle's Golden Syrup. Flies?! Rotting meat!? WTF??
    I'm just surprised they didn't sell it to Lyons Maid ice cream...
  • Leon said:

    eristdoof said:

    The DM has a paywalled article on the growth of Islam among the native working class: "Why white British children as young as eight are pledging their lives to Allah"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13101005/wokery-white-British-children-converting-Islam.html

    Other films seen by the Mail reveal English teenage males turning to Islam. Lancashire’s Masjid as-Sunnah establishment in Accrington has posted one of Mitch, 17, solemnly saying the Shahada as he sits on the floor next to an imam last year. He stands up afterwards and, smiling, is hugged by members of the congregation.

    In nearby Nelson, teenager Dylan, in a grey hoodie, is filmed accepting the Shahada in a local mosque in 2022.

    A message posted under the online film written by him and signed in his full name a year later says: ‘It’s me on this video . . . It is still the best decision of my life and all the blessings that come with Islam.’

    Why does the Daily Mail think is it not OK for white British people to take up Islam, but it is fine for back Africans (for example) to take up Christianity?

    Take a wild guess.
    Perhaps you could give us a rundown of

    Christian converts who have attempted mass murder on British streets

    and

    Islamic converts who have done the same?

    Hint: you're not allowed to include Muslims pretending to convert to Christianity so as to claim asylum
    What about natural born Christians, because the list is quite extensive.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,481
    edited February 20
    Mr Chump and Presidential Immunity from liability.

    It appears that Mr Trump has not Appealed to the Supreme Court a case that has a verdict in a case where he has been found not to have liability in a Civil Case filed against him for damages caused to people by acts in the Jan 6 riots incited by his speech etc.

    One relevant distinction in US caselaw seems to be between 'acts carried out as part of the Official role as President' and 'acts carried out not within the role as President', immunity not existing for the latter - which would eg include acts campaigning as a Presidential candidate.

    Interesting how he will claim absolute Criminal Immunity when he is not claiming absolute Civil Immunity, whilst the former is more extreme as a claim.

    Potential another Alina Habba pratfall, and a little rabbit-holey.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMN0UCTWCds
  • I could convert so many people to Islam by telling them you can call yourself a good Muslim by sticking to a Halal diet.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,525
    edited February 20
    Chris said:

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    algarkirk said:
    This article is so out of touch. Difficult life on £60k a year? What about the other 90%.

    https://moneysprout.co.uk/what-percentage-of-the-uk-earns-over-60k
    "The latest UK data shows that earning over £60k per year puts you in the top 10% of earners in the country. This is the equivalent to the 90th percentile. If you are earning more than £60k per year you are making more than 90% of the working population."
    Is it out of touch, or just demonstrating how messed up things are, if even some of those on £60k aren't finding life peachy ?

    The story is really about the "one in three chance of someone earning a middle income today not doing so next year", alongside historically high housing costs, rather than high income hardship.

    So the headline is just the usual attention grabbing hyperbole, but the problems behind it exist for many more than those on £60k.
    Definitely the state pension of £10.6k should be cut to help out some of these people on middle incomes of £60k.
    Don't be silly.
    The argument is that housing costs need to be addressed.

    Labour actually had something of a policy* to do that - compulsory purchase powers to local authorities to acquire land without having to pay planning gain - which might shift the dial a bit.

    But whether that survives their current desperation not to do anything controversial, remains to be seen.

    *Which I support.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,320

    All that Labour needs to do on the probationary period / unfair dismissal nonsense that we have at the moment is to ensure that notice periods apply from day one in new jobs, not after a year or six months etc. The current system, where many employees have to concede all their severance rights to move jobs, militates against labour-market liquidity, as it creates a huge disincentive to move. If the new employer wants you, he can offer you notice from day one – that is a reasonable bargain.

    It’s not a completely one-way street - logically low notice / no notice periods reduce the risk an employer takes in taking on a new employee - if it doesn’t work out they can let them go without going through a legally complex dismissal procedure. Which in turn can make it easier for someone to find a job if potential employers are more likely to take them on.

    But this does push risk onto the employee, who is least able to bear it. IIRC the Germans (or is it the Danes?) solve this by allowing low/no-notice dismissal but also offering very generous unemployment benefits for the first year of post-dismissal unemployment, hence reducing the risks for both sides of the employer/employee relationship.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,525

    I could convert so many people to Islam by telling them you can call yourself a good Muslim by sticking to a Halal diet.

    And wearing suitable footwear.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,771

    Leon said:

    eristdoof said:

    The DM has a paywalled article on the growth of Islam among the native working class: "Why white British children as young as eight are pledging their lives to Allah"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13101005/wokery-white-British-children-converting-Islam.html

    Other films seen by the Mail reveal English teenage males turning to Islam. Lancashire’s Masjid as-Sunnah establishment in Accrington has posted one of Mitch, 17, solemnly saying the Shahada as he sits on the floor next to an imam last year. He stands up afterwards and, smiling, is hugged by members of the congregation.

    In nearby Nelson, teenager Dylan, in a grey hoodie, is filmed accepting the Shahada in a local mosque in 2022.

    A message posted under the online film written by him and signed in his full name a year later says: ‘It’s me on this video . . . It is still the best decision of my life and all the blessings that come with Islam.’

    Why does the Daily Mail think is it not OK for white British people to take up Islam, but it is fine for back Africans (for example) to take up Christianity?

    Take a wild guess.
    Perhaps you could give us a rundown of

    Christian converts who have attempted mass murder on British streets

    and

    Islamic converts who have done the same?

    Hint: you're not allowed to include Muslims pretending to convert to Christianity so as to claim asylum
    What about natural born Christians, because the list is quite extensive.
    The article and the comment are both about "converts"

    I've no doubt there is an overall preponderance of white Britons in the wider stats given that we are, still, mainly a white "British" country. despite the best attempts of HMG, passim
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,525
    edited February 20
    The entire world: Putin murdered Navalny.

    The Russian government: Navalny died from “Sudden death syndrome"

    Trump this morning: “The sudden death of Alexi Navalny.”

    Donald Trump is a Russian asset.

    https://twitter.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1759605034902241715
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,771
    ON topic

    Assange should really be released now. Enough
  • eekeek Posts: 28,444
    Chris said:

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    algarkirk said:
    This article is so out of touch. Difficult life on £60k a year? What about the other 90%.

    https://moneysprout.co.uk/what-percentage-of-the-uk-earns-over-60k
    "The latest UK data shows that earning over £60k per year puts you in the top 10% of earners in the country. This is the equivalent to the 90th percentile. If you are earning more than £60k per year you are making more than 90% of the working population."
    Is it out of touch, or just demonstrating how messed up things are, if even some of those on £60k aren't finding life peachy ?

    The story is really about the "one in three chance of someone earning a middle income today not doing so next year", alongside historically high housing costs, rather than high income hardship.

    So the headline is just the usual attention grabbing hyperbole, but the problems behind it exist for many more than those on £60k.
    Definitely the state pension of £10.6k should be cut to help out some of these people on middle incomes of £60k.

    I would be very careful here because unless you end up with tenancy in a council / housing association property, for anyone approaching retirement without a home to call their own the best plan would be to have no private pension to ensure you get maximum benefits
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,584
    Leon said:

    ON topic

    Assange should really be released now. Enough

    Why?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,806
    edited February 20
    DavidL said:

    AlsoLei said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    algarkirk said:
    This article is so out of touch. Difficult life on £60k a year? What about the other 90%.

    https://moneysprout.co.uk/what-percentage-of-the-uk-earns-over-60k
    "The latest UK data shows that earning over £60k per year puts you in the top 10% of earners in the country. This is the equivalent to the 90th percentile. If you are earning more than £60k per year you are making more than 90% of the working population."
    Is it out of touch, or just demonstrating how messed up things are, if even some of those on £60k aren't finding life peachy ?

    The story is really about the "one in three chance of someone earning a middle income today not doing so next year", alongside historically high housing costs, rather than high income hardship.

    So the headline is just the usual attention grabbing hyperbole, but the problems behind it exist for many more than those on £60k.
    I think it is out of touch. Millions of people manage on £20k a year, even in London. If you're having problems on £60k you need to reduce your spending.
    All that says is that we're much poorer as a society than we used to be.

    60k is a head teacher's salary. 40 years ago, a head teacher in London would have been able to buy a house. 20 years ago, they'd have been able to rent a 2 bedroom flat and start a family. That's not possible today.

    You say that they should live with it. Cut their cloth. Accept that we're all living in reduced circumstances.

    Except... we're not, are we?

    Whichever measure you use - GDP, GNP, adjusted for PPP or not, we're better off as a society than we were 20 years ago. And much better off than 40 years ago.

    So something's gone badly wrong, and it's entirely reasonable to ask what's happened and what might be done to set it right.
    The other thing that is weird is the gini coefficient for the UK has been in a fairly narrow band for over 40 years now:
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/872472/gini-index-of-the-united-kingdom/

    The latest figure has it down slightly on the previous year. So it is not as if society as a whole is getting more unequal, at least so far as incomes are concerned.
    Crikey! What happened between around 1979 and 1990? :innocent:
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,233

    Leon said:

    eristdoof said:

    The DM has a paywalled article on the growth of Islam among the native working class: "Why white British children as young as eight are pledging their lives to Allah"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13101005/wokery-white-British-children-converting-Islam.html

    Other films seen by the Mail reveal English teenage males turning to Islam. Lancashire’s Masjid as-Sunnah establishment in Accrington has posted one of Mitch, 17, solemnly saying the Shahada as he sits on the floor next to an imam last year. He stands up afterwards and, smiling, is hugged by members of the congregation.

    In nearby Nelson, teenager Dylan, in a grey hoodie, is filmed accepting the Shahada in a local mosque in 2022.

    A message posted under the online film written by him and signed in his full name a year later says: ‘It’s me on this video . . . It is still the best decision of my life and all the blessings that come with Islam.’

    Why does the Daily Mail think is it not OK for white British people to take up Islam, but it is fine for back Africans (for example) to take up Christianity?

    Take a wild guess.
    Perhaps you could give us a rundown of

    Christian converts who have attempted mass murder on British streets

    and

    Islamic converts who have done the same?

    Hint: you're not allowed to include Muslims pretending to convert to Christianity so as to claim asylum
    What about natural born Christians, because the list is quite extensive.
    Indeed, lots of terrorism in the UK carried out by Christians, although I feel we are neglecting other religions here. The worst terrorist attack in the British Isles was committed by a Sikh.
  • Leon said:

    ON topic

    Assange should really be released now. Enough

    Spoken like a true Russian sock puppet.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,823

    I could convert so many people to Islam by telling them you can call yourself a good Muslim by sticking to a Halal diet.

    I guess I am a good Muslim then. Although on that criterion so is Rishi Sunak...
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,628
    edited February 20
    Phil said:

    All that Labour needs to do on the probationary period / unfair dismissal nonsense that we have at the moment is to ensure that notice periods apply from day one in new jobs, not after a year or six months etc. The current system, where many employees have to concede all their severance rights to move jobs, militates against labour-market liquidity, as it creates a huge disincentive to move. If the new employer wants you, he can offer you notice from day one – that is a reasonable bargain.

    It’s not a completely one-way street - logically low notice / no notice periods reduce the risk an employer takes in taking on a new employee - if it doesn’t work out they can let them go without going through a legally complex dismissal procedure. Which in turn can make it easier for someone to find a job if potential employers are more likely to take them on.

    But this does push risk onto the employee, who is least able to bear it. IIRC the Germans (or is it the Danes?) solve this by allowing low/no-notice dismissal but also offering very generous unemployment benefits for the first year of post-dismissal unemployment, hence reducing the risks for both sides of the employer/employee relationship.
    Yes, I agree with that. But the idea that you go from one/three months notice in your current job to zero / a week's notice in your new job is bonkers. Stops people taking jobs.

    Last job I took, I was faced with losing three months' Pilon plus two months' redundancy to move – effectively more than half a year's salary in severance package as redundancy is mostly tax free. My offer was to move from a big company to a smaller one.

    In the end, because the new firm was a small company, they were flexible enough to give me three months' notice from day one, so I said: "that's grand, thank you", and took the job. I've been there, happy, for a number of years now so it no longer matters, but it was a sticking point at the time – not least with my family who thought it a very high risk (I am the main breadwinner).

    I have heard many accounts the other way – big companies 'unable' to change the contracts as it somehow becomes a massive HR grind –– and losing out on making great new hires because of it.

    Edit: There would be no 'complex legal procedure' under my plan – they would simply have to pay off the employer in Pilon.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,771

    Leon said:

    ON topic

    Assange should really be released now. Enough

    Why?
    Because he's already done 15 years in prison - essentially - he's now a mad sick old fuck - and because I don't believe his original crime was that grave: one man's spy is another man's whistleblower

    Also the absurd rape charges were an obvious fit-up

    Enough. Britain should stand up to the USA and say, Nah
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,515
    Leon said:

    ON topic

    Assange should really be released now. Enough

    Or he could face up to the charges levied against him, rather than hiding.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,771

    Leon said:

    ON topic

    Assange should really be released now. Enough

    Or he could face up to the charges levied against him, rather than hiding.
    You think he will get a fair trial in the USA, which will - inter alia - take into account the time he has already done in "voluntary" incarceration? I do not
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,515
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    ON topic

    Assange should really be released now. Enough

    Or he could face up to the charges levied against him, rather than hiding.
    You think he will get a fair trial in the USA, which will - inter alia - take into account the time he has already done in "voluntary" incarceration? I do not
    I think US justice will do its thing with plea bargaining and that will be that.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,320
    edited February 20

    Phil said:

    All that Labour needs to do on the probationary period / unfair dismissal nonsense that we have at the moment is to ensure that notice periods apply from day one in new jobs, not after a year or six months etc. The current system, where many employees have to concede all their severance rights to move jobs, militates against labour-market liquidity, as it creates a huge disincentive to move. If the new employer wants you, he can offer you notice from day one – that is a reasonable bargain.

    It’s not a completely one-way street - logically low notice / no notice periods reduce the risk an employer takes in taking on a new employee - if it doesn’t work out they can let them go without going through a legally complex dismissal procedure. Which in turn can make it easier for someone to find a job if potential employers are more likely to take them on.

    But this does push risk onto the employee, who is least able to bear it. IIRC the Germans (or is it the Danes?) solve this by allowing low/no-notice dismissal but also offering very generous unemployment benefits for the first year of post-dismissal unemployment, hence reducing the risks for both sides of the employer/employee relationship.
    Yes, I agree with that. But the idea that you go from one/three months notice in your current job to zero / a week's notice in your new job is bonkers. Stops people taking jobs.

    Last job I took, I was faced with losing three months' Pilon plus two months' redundancy to move – effectively more than half a year's salary in severance package as redundancy is mostly tax free. My offer was to move from a big company to a smaller one.

    In the end, because the new firm was a small company, they were flexible enough to give me three months' notice from day one, so I said: "that's grand, thank you", and took the job. I've been there, happy, for a number of years now so it no longer matters, but it was a sticking point at the time – not least with my family who thought it a very high risk (I am the main breadwinner).

    I have heard many accounts the other way – big companies 'unable' to change the contracts as it somehow becomes a massive HR grind –– and losing out on making great new hires because of it.
    Yes, I suspect that those who argued for this change originally expected that employees in demand would be able to negotiate notice periods, thus the impact on the mobility of higher quality employees would be minimal.

    Unfortunately, this requires flexibility from company HR / legal which, as you point out, is often in extremely short supply. Often in larger companies where HR has been centralised the management doing the recruiting has little or no power to make any changes at all to employment contracts. The net result has been a transfer of risk to the employee & a consequent reduction in economic output due to reduced employee movement between companies.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,771

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    ON topic

    Assange should really be released now. Enough

    Or he could face up to the charges levied against him, rather than hiding.
    You think he will get a fair trial in the USA, which will - inter alia - take into account the time he has already done in "voluntary" incarceration? I do not
    I think US justice will do its thing with plea bargaining and that will be that.
    No they won't, they will bury him alive in a Supermax
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,760
    There is something very odd with PB.com not allowing you to search in page (Ctrl-F or Cmd-F) - it appears to work but doesn't actually take you to the searched for text.

    Or am I the only one having that irritating issue?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,755

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    ON topic

    Assange should really be released now. Enough

    Or he could face up to the charges levied against him, rather than hiding.
    You think he will get a fair trial in the USA, which will - inter alia - take into account the time he has already done in "voluntary" incarceration? I do not
    I think US justice will do its thing with plea bargaining and that will be that.
    Doubt it. Plenty in positions of power think he should face the death penalty.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,712

    There is something very odd with PB.com not allowing you to search in page (Ctrl-F or Cmd-F) - it appears to work but doesn't actually take you to the searched for text.

    Or am I the only one having that irritating issue?

    It's working for me. Using Opera on Macbook.
  • Leon said:

    eristdoof said:

    The DM has a paywalled article on the growth of Islam among the native working class: "Why white British children as young as eight are pledging their lives to Allah"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13101005/wokery-white-British-children-converting-Islam.html

    Other films seen by the Mail reveal English teenage males turning to Islam. Lancashire’s Masjid as-Sunnah establishment in Accrington has posted one of Mitch, 17, solemnly saying the Shahada as he sits on the floor next to an imam last year. He stands up afterwards and, smiling, is hugged by members of the congregation.

    In nearby Nelson, teenager Dylan, in a grey hoodie, is filmed accepting the Shahada in a local mosque in 2022.

    A message posted under the online film written by him and signed in his full name a year later says: ‘It’s me on this video . . . It is still the best decision of my life and all the blessings that come with Islam.’

    Why does the Daily Mail think is it not OK for white British people to take up Islam, but it is fine for back Africans (for example) to take up Christianity?

    Take a wild guess.
    Perhaps you could give us a rundown of

    Christian converts who have attempted mass murder on British streets

    and

    Islamic converts who have done the same?

    Hint: you're not allowed to include Muslims pretending to convert to Christianity so as to claim asylum
    What about natural born Christians, because the list is quite extensive.
    Indeed, lots of terrorism in the UK carried out by Christians, although I feel we are neglecting other religions here. The worst terrorist attack in the British Isles was committed by a Sikh.
    What? Lockerbie? I think not.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,760
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    ON topic

    Assange should really be released now. Enough

    Or he could face up to the charges levied against him, rather than hiding.
    You think he will get a fair trial in the USA, which will - inter alia - take into account the time he has already done in "voluntary" incarceration? I do not
    I think US justice will do its thing with plea bargaining and that will be that.
    No they won't, they will bury him alive in a Supermax
    I for one don't give a shit about the self-obsessed attention-seeker.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,760
    edited February 20
    Andy_JS said:

    There is something very odd with PB.com not allowing you to search in page (Ctrl-F or Cmd-F) - it appears to work but doesn't actually take you to the searched for text.

    Or am I the only one having that irritating issue?

    It's working for me. Using Opera on Macbook.
    Thanks, I'm using Safari on a Macbook, I'll try another browser.

    Edit, yeah works on Chrome, so seems just to be a Safari issue.

    Paging @TSE: PB.com is failing to support the Appleverse fully!
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,233

    Leon said:

    eristdoof said:

    The DM has a paywalled article on the growth of Islam among the native working class: "Why white British children as young as eight are pledging their lives to Allah"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13101005/wokery-white-British-children-converting-Islam.html

    Other films seen by the Mail reveal English teenage males turning to Islam. Lancashire’s Masjid as-Sunnah establishment in Accrington has posted one of Mitch, 17, solemnly saying the Shahada as he sits on the floor next to an imam last year. He stands up afterwards and, smiling, is hugged by members of the congregation.

    In nearby Nelson, teenager Dylan, in a grey hoodie, is filmed accepting the Shahada in a local mosque in 2022.

    A message posted under the online film written by him and signed in his full name a year later says: ‘It’s me on this video . . . It is still the best decision of my life and all the blessings that come with Islam.’

    Why does the Daily Mail think is it not OK for white British people to take up Islam, but it is fine for back Africans (for example) to take up Christianity?

    Take a wild guess.
    Perhaps you could give us a rundown of

    Christian converts who have attempted mass murder on British streets

    and

    Islamic converts who have done the same?

    Hint: you're not allowed to include Muslims pretending to convert to Christianity so as to claim asylum
    What about natural born Christians, because the list is quite extensive.
    Indeed, lots of terrorism in the UK carried out by Christians, although I feel we are neglecting other religions here. The worst terrorist attack in the British Isles was committed by a Sikh.
    What? Lockerbie? I think not.
    The 1985 Air India Flight 182 bombing, over the sea to the west of Ireland.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,320

    There is something very odd with PB.com not allowing you to search in page (Ctrl-F or Cmd-F) - it appears to work but doesn't actually take you to the searched for text.

    Or am I the only one having that irritating issue?

    Works for me. On the pb.com pages, comments are in their own html <iframe>, which might affect search on some browsers? It’s effectively a whole separate web page contained within the main page.
This discussion has been closed.