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The State of Process – The Process State – politicalbetting.com

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  • I made beer!

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,801
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Keir Starmer is vegetarian.
    So is Rishi Sunak.

    No wonder the country is buggered.

    Of course, being Sir Keir, he also eats animals
    Only aquatic vertebrates.
    Sounds fishy to me.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,106

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:

    kinabalu said:

    Good piece. My bugbear is "targets" rather than "process" - they are toxic - but there's no doubt process can become counterproductive and if left to grow unchecked a monster. Where it comes into its own (imo) is where you're trying to master something as an individual. There it's advisable to forget about the desired outcome of getting better and concentrate purely on the "process" of getting better. So, sport, music, cooking, these type of areas.

    A related issue to all this is "measurement". I think we could usefully do a bit less of this. Eg you should not normally spend more time/money measuring how big of a problem something is than you do in resolving it. Yet we often do. Also the very act of measuring something can change it and so you are likely to get a false reading.

    Ahem. Given that my job involves measuring things, may I put the contrary view? To do it correctly, you fit the metric to the task. If you are spending too much time measuring, the cure is to measure something else, not "no measurement". Classical statistics was created to measure a big thing quickly using a small thing. That's (one of the reasons why) I think Big Data is not a universal panacea.
    Yes of course. It all depends. But an example of what I mean from my City days - involving traders and accountants both of which I was at various times.

    So you'd have traders and every day at close of business each one would be presented with their "Daily P/L". This told them how much they had made or lost that day on their activities.

    It typically took a whole bunch of qualified accountants (overpaid compared to everybody other than the traders) to produce this thing and they'd use a system linked to but separate from the main ledger. At month end the two systems never agreed so there'd be another team of professionals tasked with reconciling them. What a palaver.

    And for what? Why did a trader have to know their profit or loss before they knocked off? They didn't. It was a nice to have at best. It's risk you need to monitor constantly not how much money you're making. So why did a whole operation-within-the-operation, with serious headcount and IT spend, exist to provide this info? Nobody could ever tell me.
    Not my field, but I refer the Honourable Gentlemen to my earlier answer;

    you lose the ability to crown winners and punish losers. (Even if both the winners and losers aren't statistically robust).

    And for many, the crowning and punishing are the point of the exercise, even if the real information is what's happening around the average.


    (I think it's a personal advantage to me that that part of my psyche remains massively underdeveloped, certainly compared with the average City trader. Society needs herbivores and carnivores, and being a carnivore just looks so damn stressful.)
    Yes I wouldn't try to change that if I were you. My conclusion was this particular measurement exercise - this process - was a pander to traders and the resource devoted to it escaped scrutiny because there was so much money sloshing around in the sector.

    I think on measurement exercises generally (which does account for a lot of process) you ought to detach yourself and ask, does the benefit of knowing this thing justify the effort/cost of finding out? If that's not a clear yes, forget it.

    And then there’s another issue (even with a yes) where the benefit is to one set of people but the effort comes from another. But let's not get onto capitalism. Replacing that is above my paygrade.
    Why do you think that's anything to do with capitalism ?

    Its rather a case of management/executive capture with, if its of negative financial return, the shareholders (ie the capitalists) losing out.

    It will also happen in non-capitalist sectors as well.
    That was a joke really. My specific bank example is indeed more of an 'executive capture' scenario. Capitalism does rather uncouple rewards from effort - but that's going off piste.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Keir Starmer is vegetarian.
    So is Rishi Sunak.

    No wonder the country is buggered.

    Of course, being Sir Keir, he also eats animals
    Only aquatic vertebrates.
    Sounds fishy to me.
    Or is there a whale of a problem?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,243

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Keir Starmer is vegetarian.
    So is Rishi Sunak.

    No wonder the country is buggered.

    Of course, being Sir Keir, he also eats animals
    Only aquatic vertebrates.
    Sounds fishy to me.
    Or is there a whale of a problem?
    An Axolotl of an issue?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,106
    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Keir Starmer is vegetarian.
    So is Rishi Sunak.

    No wonder the country is buggered.

    Of course, being Sir Keir, he also eats animals
    Only aquatic vertebrates.
    Sounds fishy to me.
    Aquatic vertebrate, chips and mushy peas please.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,243
    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Keir Starmer is vegetarian.
    So is Rishi Sunak.

    No wonder the country is buggered.

    Of course, being Sir Keir, he also eats animals
    Only aquatic vertebrates.
    Sounds fishy to me.
    Aquatic vertebrate, chips and mushy peas please.
    Mushy peas? Is that a bit like avacado?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    Sad news for Rugby Union fans, especially Welsh ones. Barry John has died. He was 79.

    Well I thought he had already succumbed. He was a big drinker, lost his licence a few times. Quite a sad final decade, which is unfortunate. He was a great outside half, but retired young at his peak. In our household though he was no Phil Bennett.

    Quite a few of the1970s Welsh Triple Crowners are falling off the perch in their mid and late seventies. I genuinely expect the vast intake of Double Dragon, Reverend James and Brains S.A.has taken its toll. They should have listened to the Minister in Chapel on Sunday, played their rugby and avoided the demon drink.

    Very sad.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,243

    I made beer!

    Needs a dog for scale
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,243

    I made beer!

    Needs a dog for scale
    I obviously only have a black and white cat


    Give it a Pat
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424

    Sad news for Rugby Union fans, especially Welsh ones. Barry John has died. He was 79.

    Well I thought he had already succumbed. He was a big drinker, lost his licence a few times. Quite a sad final decade, which is unfortunate. He was a great outside half, but retired young at his peak. In our household though he was no Phil Bennett.

    Quite a few of the1970s Welsh Triple Crowners are falling off the perch in their mid and late seventies. I genuinely expect the vast intake of Double Dragon, Reverend James and Brains S.A.has taken its toll. They should have listened to the Minister in Chapel on Sunday, played their rugby and avoided the demon drink.

    Very sad.
    A pub in the town where I live used to get Rev James as a guest beer every so often. Very good drink indeed.
    Sadly the pub hasn’t got a wheelchair-friendly entrance so I haven’t been able to check whether they still have it for a year or so.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,365
    edited February 4

    I made beer!

    Needs a dog for scale
    I obviously only have a black and white cat


    Early in the morning
    Just as day is dawning
    He sinks a pint and throws his van around?
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883

    I made beer!

    Needs a dog for scale
    I obviously only have a black and white cat


    Give it a Pat
    is this "early in the morning?.."
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Keir Starmer is vegetarian.
    So is Rishi Sunak.

    No wonder the country is buggered.

    Of course, being Sir Keir, he also eats animals
    Only aquatic vertebrates.
    Sounds fishy to me.
    Aquatic vertebrate, chips and mushy peas please.
    Mushy peas? Is that a bit like avacado?
    guacamole
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,243

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Keir Starmer is vegetarian.
    So is Rishi Sunak.

    No wonder the country is buggered.

    Of course, being Sir Keir, he also eats animals
    Only aquatic vertebrates.
    Sounds fishy to me.
    Aquatic vertebrate, chips and mushy peas please.
    Mushy peas? Is that a bit like avacado?
    guacamole
    https://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/19290326.day-hartlepool-candidate-peter-mandelson-gave-verdict-chips-mushy-peas/
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    Sad news for Rugby Union fans, especially Welsh ones. Barry John has died. He was 79.

    Well I thought he had already succumbed. He was a big drinker, lost his licence a few times. Quite a sad final decade, which is unfortunate. He was a great outside half, but retired young at his peak. In our household though he was no Phil Bennett.

    Quite a few of the1970s Welsh Triple Crowners are falling off the perch in their mid and late seventies. I genuinely expect the vast intake of Double Dragon, Reverend James and Brains S.A.has taken its toll. They should have listened to the Minister in Chapel on Sunday, played their rugby and avoided the demon drink.

    Very sad.
    A pub in the town where I live used to get Rev James as a guest beer every so often. Very good drink indeed.
    Sadly the pub hasn’t got a wheelchair-friendly entrance so I haven’t been able to check whether they still have it for a year or so.
    Reverend James and SA Gold are available in bottles in Lidl and Aldi this side of the country at £1.49 for half a litre. They might be available on your side of the country if you have a look.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,243
    On an unrelated note. Why is this man a genius in South American culture?


  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,801

    On an unrelated note. Why is this man a genius in South American culture?


    My google searches indicate that he is Victor Morris who probably invented a cocktail called Pisco Sour which is apparently very big in Peru.

    Unless I have missed quite a lot "genius" might be overstating it somewhat.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424

    Sad news for Rugby Union fans, especially Welsh ones. Barry John has died. He was 79.

    Well I thought he had already succumbed. He was a big drinker, lost his licence a few times. Quite a sad final decade, which is unfortunate. He was a great outside half, but retired young at his peak. In our household though he was no Phil Bennett.

    Quite a few of the1970s Welsh Triple Crowners are falling off the perch in their mid and late seventies. I genuinely expect the vast intake of Double Dragon, Reverend James and Brains S.A.has taken its toll. They should have listened to the Minister in Chapel on Sunday, played their rugby and avoided the demon drink.

    Very sad.
    A pub in the town where I live used to get Rev James as a guest beer every so often. Very good drink indeed.
    Sadly the pub hasn’t got a wheelchair-friendly entrance so I haven’t been able to check whether they still have it for a year or so.
    Reverend James and SA Gold are available in bottles in Lidl and Aldi this side of the country at £1.49 for half a litre. They might be available on your side of the country if you have a look.
    Thanks. I’ll get someone to try our local Lidl. Not normally a fan of bottled beer though.
  • In more important beer news than its bland and white cat scaling, the beer is not bad. I'm about to open a fourth bottle!

    I wouldn't begrudge paying a couple of quid a bottle for this in a pub. It tastes a lot better than I expected when I tasted it when I bottled it a fortnight ago; then it tasted like very cheap beer with a really long aftertaste of free beer

    My next batch, bottled last week, tasted much better. It was the same kit as the first lot, but I inexplicably (drunkenly) added a few spoons of molasses sugar before cooling and adding the yeast. It's made it a bit red and a bit stronger

    My third batch, I decided to use double barley malt and some pudding rice. I wanted a strong beer! I will be bottling that on Wednesday and will be reporting on its interim flavour then

    For the fourth batch, that I started last week, I used double wheat malt. I accidentally (drunkenly) added far too much hops. It tasted nastily bitter. I added a generous helping of golden syrup. I have no idea how it'll taste, but it will be strong

    My mum asked me today what day off I have next week. I said "I don't have days off anymore; I have brewing days. Wednesday"

    I'm going to make a Belgian Blanche De Blanche
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,243
    DavidL said:

    On an unrelated note. Why is this man a genius in South American culture?


    My google searches indicate that he is Victor Morris who probably invented a cocktail called Pisco Sour which is apparently very big in Peru.

    Unless I have missed quite a lot "genius" might be overstating it somewhat.
    How many people have invented a cocktail that is considered the national drink?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814
    edited February 4
    HYUFD said:

    Better records management and retention practices would also help, removing documents that don't need to be kept

    Fair enough. But I've had to implement it in real life. It takes a lot of work, because the material has to be checked - some documents do need to be kept e.g. for legal reasons (to prove contracts, and so on).

    It also has to be findable reasonably easily, otherwise one might as well not bother.

    The interesting ones are the ones which should be kept for historical reasons of all kinds.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814
    edited February 4
    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Keir Starmer is vegetarian.
    So is Rishi Sunak.

    No wonder the country is buggered.

    Of course, being Sir Keir, he also eats animals
    Only aquatic vertebrates.
    Sounds fishy to me.
    Aquatic vertebrate, chips and mushy peas please.
    Axolotl? Dolphin? Mink?

    Edit: damn, preempted on 2 out of 3.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,801

    DavidL said:

    On an unrelated note. Why is this man a genius in South American culture?


    My google searches indicate that he is Victor Morris who probably invented a cocktail called Pisco Sour which is apparently very big in Peru.

    Unless I have missed quite a lot "genius" might be overstating it somewhat.
    How many people have invented a cocktail that is considered the national drink?
    Us non drinkers (4 days and counting) don't really care about that sort of thing.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Keir Starmer is vegetarian.
    So is Rishi Sunak.

    No wonder the country is buggered.

    Of course, being Sir Keir, he also eats animals
    Only aquatic vertebrates.
    And what aboout moules marinière?

    (Why it isn't moules marinières escapes me btw ...).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,365

    DavidL said:

    On an unrelated note. Why is this man a genius in South American culture?


    My google searches indicate that he is Victor Morris who probably invented a cocktail called Pisco Sour which is apparently very big in Peru.

    Unless I have missed quite a lot "genius" might be overstating it somewhat.
    How many people have invented a cocktail that is considered the national drink?
    Donald Trump.

    His cock's tale is the national drink of America, who are taking his piss.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,365

    In more important beer news than its bland and white cat scaling, the beer is not bad. I'm about to open a fourth bottle!

    I wouldn't begrudge paying a couple of quid a bottle for this in a pub. It tastes a lot better than I expected when I tasted it when I bottled it a fortnight ago; then it tasted like very cheap beer with a really long aftertaste of free beer

    My next batch, bottled last week, tasted much better. It was the same kit as the first lot, but I inexplicably (drunkenly) added a few spoons of molasses sugar before cooling and adding the yeast. It's made it a bit red and a bit stronger

    My third batch, I decided to use double barley malt and some pudding rice. I wanted a strong beer! I will be bottling that on Wednesday and will be reporting on its interim flavour then

    For the fourth batch, that I started last week, I used double wheat malt. I accidentally (drunkenly) added far too much hops. It tasted nastily bitter. I added a generous helping of golden syrup. I have no idea how it'll taste, but it will be strong

    My mum asked me today what day off I have next week. I said "I don't have days off anymore; I have brewing days. Wednesday"

    I'm going to make a Belgian Blanche De Blanche

    But the key question - is it, like the Hawkstone, better than Birmingham?
  • FffsFffs Posts: 69
    Late to the party, but what an outstanding header from Malmesbury.

    I've worked for any number of crap companies in my life, and now work for an excellent one - and the difference is precisely that domain experts have outsize influence at the expense of the professional managers (of whom I am one, sort of), and that there is a great deal of emphasis on personal responsibility, human judgement, and simplification.

    The flip side of it is that there is nowhere for mediocre people to hide - you can see why that would be hard to replicate everywhere.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,365
    edited February 4
    Fffs said:

    Late to the party, but what an outstanding header from Malmesbury.

    I've worked for any number of crap companies in my life, and now work for an excellent one - and the difference is precisely that domain experts have outsize influence at the expense of the professional managers (of whom I am one, sort of), and that there is a great deal of emphasis on personal responsibility, human judgement, and simplification.

    The flip side of it is that there is nowhere for mediocre people to hide - you can see why that would be hard to replicate everywhere.

    That would never catch on in the Civil Service.

    We might get talented people instead of drunks with the right connections.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    If we were to see American nuclear warheads stationed in Britain could Trump use them as leverage over us in some way? We need to prepare for the the fact that in less than 12 months we may have a President of the United States who is an effective enemy of this country.

    We can't be sure how a second Trump Presidency will play out but the signs of closeness to Putin are ominous. Just as we are seeing greater co-ordination between China, Russia and Iran. Given how much Trump was a China hawk to begin with this seems curious. We may have to accept the freezing of the 'special' relationship.

    The best thing would be to given Ukraine more support now to hopefully weaken Putin as much as possible. Ridicule him as Beijing's poodle. Showing fealty towards such a figure would make Trump look ridiculous. And I don't think he wants to look ridiculous.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    ..
    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Keir Starmer is vegetarian.
    So is Rishi Sunak.

    No wonder the country is buggered.

    Of course, being Sir Keir, he also eats animals
    Only aquatic vertebrates.
    And what aboout moules marinière?

    (Why it isn't moules marinières escapes me btw ...).
    It should be moules à la marinière or à la sauce marinière, or alternatively moules marinières as you suggest.

    I had to look that up.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,412

    DavidL said:

    On an unrelated note. Why is this man a genius in South American culture?


    My google searches indicate that he is Victor Morris who probably invented a cocktail called Pisco Sour which is apparently very big in Peru.

    Unless I have missed quite a lot "genius" might be overstating it somewhat.
    How many people have invented a cocktail that is considered the national drink?
    He seems to have created something of a pisco inferno.
  • ydoethur said:

    In more important beer news than its bland and white cat scaling, the beer is not bad. I'm about to open a fourth bottle!

    I wouldn't begrudge paying a couple of quid a bottle for this in a pub. It tastes a lot better than I expected when I tasted it when I bottled it a fortnight ago; then it tasted like very cheap beer with a really long aftertaste of free beer

    My next batch, bottled last week, tasted much better. It was the same kit as the first lot, but I inexplicably (drunkenly) added a few spoons of molasses sugar before cooling and adding the yeast. It's made it a bit red and a bit stronger

    My third batch, I decided to use double barley malt and some pudding rice. I wanted a strong beer! I will be bottling that on Wednesday and will be reporting on its interim flavour then

    For the fourth batch, that I started last week, I used double wheat malt. I accidentally (drunkenly) added far too much hops. It tasted nastily bitter. I added a generous helping of golden syrup. I have no idea how it'll taste, but it will be strong

    My mum asked me today what day off I have next week. I said "I don't have days off anymore; I have brewing days. Wednesday"

    I'm going to make a Belgian Blanche De Blanche

    But the key question - is it, like the Hawkstone, better than Birmingham?
    I've never been to Birmingham (except to an evening game at Villa Park about thirty years ago), so I couldn't say. But I think Jeremy might agree that it's better than Swindon, if we don't include the brilliant magic roundabout
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,365

    ydoethur said:

    In more important beer news than its bland and white cat scaling, the beer is not bad. I'm about to open a fourth bottle!

    I wouldn't begrudge paying a couple of quid a bottle for this in a pub. It tastes a lot better than I expected when I tasted it when I bottled it a fortnight ago; then it tasted like very cheap beer with a really long aftertaste of free beer

    My next batch, bottled last week, tasted much better. It was the same kit as the first lot, but I inexplicably (drunkenly) added a few spoons of molasses sugar before cooling and adding the yeast. It's made it a bit red and a bit stronger

    My third batch, I decided to use double barley malt and some pudding rice. I wanted a strong beer! I will be bottling that on Wednesday and will be reporting on its interim flavour then

    For the fourth batch, that I started last week, I used double wheat malt. I accidentally (drunkenly) added far too much hops. It tasted nastily bitter. I added a generous helping of golden syrup. I have no idea how it'll taste, but it will be strong

    My mum asked me today what day off I have next week. I said "I don't have days off anymore; I have brewing days. Wednesday"

    I'm going to make a Belgian Blanche De Blanche

    But the key question - is it, like the Hawkstone, better than Birmingham?
    I've never been to Birmingham (except to an evening game at Villa Park about thirty years ago), so I couldn't say. But I think Jeremy might agree that it's better than Swindon, if we don't include the brilliant magic roundabout
    Ah, we're back to using dogs for scale...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814
    edited February 4
    @Malmesbury - thank you for the header.

    Please can you please give a source/website to read further for the Valiant? I've read up on the Comet in some recent studies, no problem, but the Valiant issue isn't familiar.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    DavidL said:

    On an unrelated note. Why is this man a genius in South American culture?


    My google searches indicate that he is Victor Morris who probably invented a cocktail called Pisco Sour which is apparently very big in Peru.

    Unless I have missed quite a lot "genius" might be overstating it somewhat.
    It’s an awesome drink though. Worth visiting Ceviche in Soho for the Pisco Sour alone.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,801
    ydoethur said:

    Fffs said:

    Late to the party, but what an outstanding header from Malmesbury.

    I've worked for any number of crap companies in my life, and now work for an excellent one - and the difference is precisely that domain experts have outsize influence at the expense of the professional managers (of whom I am one, sort of), and that there is a great deal of emphasis on personal responsibility, human judgement, and simplification.

    The flip side of it is that there is nowhere for mediocre people to hide - you can see why that would be hard to replicate everywhere.

    That would never catch on in the Civil Service.

    We might get talented people instead of drunks with the right connections.
    Frank Herbert had quite a lot to say about administrative systems. I liked
    “Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock.”

    from Chapter House Dune.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,365
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fffs said:

    Late to the party, but what an outstanding header from Malmesbury.

    I've worked for any number of crap companies in my life, and now work for an excellent one - and the difference is precisely that domain experts have outsize influence at the expense of the professional managers (of whom I am one, sort of), and that there is a great deal of emphasis on personal responsibility, human judgement, and simplification.

    The flip side of it is that there is nowhere for mediocre people to hide - you can see why that would be hard to replicate everywhere.

    That would never catch on in the Civil Service.

    We might get talented people instead of drunks with the right connections.
    Frank Herbert had quite a lot to say about administrative systems. I liked
    “Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock.”

    from Chapter House Dune.
    That still doesn't work for the DfE. It's in manifest chaos *and* it spends much of its time covering up its mistakes.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,243
    ydoethur said:

    Fffs said:

    Late to the party, but what an outstanding header from Malmesbury.

    I've worked for any number of crap companies in my life, and now work for an excellent one - and the difference is precisely that domain experts have outsize influence at the expense of the professional managers (of whom I am one, sort of), and that there is a great deal of emphasis on personal responsibility, human judgement, and simplification.

    The flip side of it is that there is nowhere for mediocre people to hide - you can see why that would be hard to replicate everywhere.

    That would never catch on in the Civil Service.

    We might get talented people instead of drunks with the right connections.
    Some little time ago, some professionals wanted something to sum up the ethos of the best on their profession. So they asked a poet. And he replied.


    ….in the presence of these my betters and my equals in my Calling, bind myself upon my Honour and Cold Iron, that, to the best of my knowledge and power, I will not henceforward suffer or pass, or be privy to the passing of, Bad Workmanship or Faulty Material in aught that concerns my works before mankind as an engineer, or in my dealings with my own Soul before my Maker.

    My Time I will not refuse; my Thought I will not grudge; my Care I will not deny towards the honour, use, stability and perfection of any works to which I may be called to set my hand.

    My Fair Wages for that work I will openly take. My Reputation in my Calling I will honourably guard; but I will in no way go about to compass or wrest judgement or gratification from any one with whom I may deal. And further, I will early and warily strive my uttermost against professional jealousy and the belittling of my working- colleagues in any field of their labour.

    For my assured failures and derelictions I ask pardon beforehand of my betters and my equals in my Calling here assembled, praying that in the hour of my temptations, weakness and weariness, the memory of this my Obligation and of the company before whom it was entered into, may return to me to aid, comfort and restrain.

    Upon Honour and Cold Iron, God helping me, these things I purpose to abide.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,801
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fffs said:

    Late to the party, but what an outstanding header from Malmesbury.

    I've worked for any number of crap companies in my life, and now work for an excellent one - and the difference is precisely that domain experts have outsize influence at the expense of the professional managers (of whom I am one, sort of), and that there is a great deal of emphasis on personal responsibility, human judgement, and simplification.

    The flip side of it is that there is nowhere for mediocre people to hide - you can see why that would be hard to replicate everywhere.

    That would never catch on in the Civil Service.

    We might get talented people instead of drunks with the right connections.
    Frank Herbert had quite a lot to say about administrative systems. I liked
    “Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock.”

    from Chapter House Dune.
    That still doesn't work for the DfE. It's in manifest chaos *and* it spends much of its time covering up its mistakes.
    He had some great observations on mistakes as well.

    "A bad administrator is more concerned with reports than with decisions. He wants the hard record which he can display as an excuse for his errors. […] Often, the most important piece of information is that something has gone wrong. Bad administrators hide their mistakes until it’s too late to make corrections.”
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,047
    IanB2 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Nice header - agree that processes often substitute for thinking. Not easy to solve though. As society gets more complex and things interact more, it naturally gets harder to do things. Some countries seem to manage it a bit better though.

    Where UK does better IMO is online... many many things can be done online much more easily than when I have to interact with other govts.

    Yes, gov.Uk has come on hugely over recent years, both in terms of the clarity and user-friendliness of the guidance, to all the various things you can arrange entirely online. I know a lot of pet travellers use it for advice on pet travel, as the US equivalents are clunky and often out of date. The key to a useful website is to ensure it’s always up to date, and they must have a fairly big website team to achieve that. And the integration between different databases - for example the car tax stuff, that pulls through from the MOT database and the car insurance one, is impressive.
    They have a process, which is this: https://www.gov.uk/service-manual I've been through it. It works. It's not perfect, but it's much better than what used to happen.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,243
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I'm not sure I agree with all of @Malmesbury's header.

    The point about social workers needs clarification - the meticulous and necessary recording of conversations and meetings is an integral part of the role. It allows cases to be moved from one professional to another without an interruption. Social workers also need time and opportunity to process what they see and hear which can often be harrowing and a vital part of their working experience is the need to unload that to a senior colleague.

    The documenting of processes doesn't leave organisations dependent on experience so when old Bloggs heads to the Canaries after 30 years, the organisation doesn't have to re-invent the wheel.

    That being said, automaton did and the implementation of now and more efficient systems does provide the opportunity to review how things are done. Unfortunately, all too often it comes down to a binary decision - either make the business fit the system (the SAP way) or make the system fit the business (the ORACLE way).

    The answer is somewhere in the middle - system evolution allows for processes to be challenged and re-examined while system configuration allows the technology to be used to best advantage.

    Unfortunately, both take time and the "JFDI" mentality takes over. I've seen so many examples of poor system implementation where the new system is put live without proper testing and often proper evaluation just to meet a senior manager's expectations. The old maxim "implement in haste, repent at leisure" soon comes for a visit.

    Whether it's LEAN or some other form of business process mapping, it should be a continuous process but of course it isn't. It's often driven by the need to cost cuts or drive out efficiencies.

    Where I agree with @Leon is AI will be a fundamental driver for business process change and renewal. The further automaton of basic transactional activities could simply be a cost cutting exercise or it could be an opportunity to upskill those workers affected.

    The ethical question is more interesting, There is a whole new sub-industry growing round data ethics which goes beyond the confines of data protection and subject access rights and the like and challenges the accumulation of personal data in both the private and public sectors over the past 20-30 years.

    When I'm asked about it, my head hurts....

    The purpose of the Process to make a clear, simple, safe road for the journey of the professional, to the Goal.

    All else is false.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,047

    A usual moan about economic stagnation, rising prices, falling productivity, aging infrastructure.

    But this time its about Germany.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68181799

    Doubtless some Germans are blaming Olaf Scholz for their local market struggling or because a single minimum wage doesn't provide affluent living for a family of six.

    And similar pieces could be done about all developed countries.

    But moaning about things or blaming governments for not providing everything demanded isn't going to achieve anything anywhere.

    The way to improvement is through work not whining, through increasing productivity not increasing demands, through taking the opportunities on offer not expecting others to provide more.

    Don't the Germans have a phrase about that... arbeit macht frei?
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,779
    Ah, that header. The fights I have at work trying to resist the waves of 'just add another step! Throw more IT at a human problem!'.

    17 email reminders not enough? 18! 18 will solve it!

    People not doing things in the correct order? Add another report, another automated email, another sub-report, a manual yet automatic yet manual reminder email! Now we need a 19th reminder!

    Ok, now! For process 2 - we currently have 20 reminders, but some people still don't comply. If we make the wording for reminder 21 even more threatening and add 14 extra buttons then, then!...

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,243
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fffs said:

    Late to the party, but what an outstanding header from Malmesbury.

    I've worked for any number of crap companies in my life, and now work for an excellent one - and the difference is precisely that domain experts have outsize influence at the expense of the professional managers (of whom I am one, sort of), and that there is a great deal of emphasis on personal responsibility, human judgement, and simplification.

    The flip side of it is that there is nowhere for mediocre people to hide - you can see why that would be hard to replicate everywhere.

    That would never catch on in the Civil Service.

    We might get talented people instead of drunks with the right connections.
    Frank Herbert had quite a lot to say about administrative systems. I liked
    “Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock.”

    from Chapter House Dune.
    That still doesn't work for the DfE. It's in manifest chaos *and* it spends much of its time covering up its mistakes.
    The DfE makes much more sense if you assume they *think* they are the Spacing Guild. Pre Paul….
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,801
    ohnotnow said:

    Ah, that header. The fights I have at work trying to resist the waves of 'just add another step! Throw more IT at a human problem!'.

    17 email reminders not enough? 18! 18 will solve it!

    People not doing things in the correct order? Add another report, another automated email, another sub-report, a manual yet automatic yet manual reminder email! Now we need a 19th reminder!

    Ok, now! For process 2 - we currently have 20 reminders, but some people still don't comply. If we make the wording for reminder 21 even more threatening and add 14 extra buttons then, then!...

    Do you work for Crown Office?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    Jeremy Clarkson on Millionaire just said Coventry is in Nottinghamshire.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,106
    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Keir Starmer is vegetarian.
    So is Rishi Sunak.

    No wonder the country is buggered.

    Of course, being Sir Keir, he also eats animals
    Only aquatic vertebrates.
    Sounds fishy to me.
    Aquatic vertebrate, chips and mushy peas please.
    Axolotl? Dolphin? Mink?

    Edit: damn, preempted on 2 out of 3.
    He doesn't eat dolphins. That's about the one thing that might cost him the election if that came out.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,243

    DavidL said:

    On an unrelated note. Why is this man a genius in South American culture?


    My google searches indicate that he is Victor Morris who probably invented a cocktail called Pisco Sour which is apparently very big in Peru.

    Unless I have missed quite a lot "genius" might be overstating it somewhat.
    It’s an awesome drink though. Worth visiting Ceviche in Soho for the Pisco Sour alone.
    Sadly the Ceviche chain has contracted - their idea of regional Peruvian food with each resteraunt specialising in a region of Peru was magnificent.

    Passion Fruit Pisco Sour recommended there.

    After a few you might find yourself drinking with Enoch Soames at the Restaurant du Vingtieme Siecle.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,129
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I'm not sure I agree with all of @Malmesbury's header.

    The point about social workers needs clarification - the meticulous and necessary recording of conversations and meetings is an integral part of the role. It allows cases to be moved from one professional to another without an interruption. Social workers also need time and opportunity to process what they see and hear which can often be harrowing and a vital part of their working experience is the need to unload that to a senior colleague.

    The documenting of processes doesn't leave organisations dependent on experience so when old Bloggs heads to the Canaries after 30 years, the organisation doesn't have to re-invent the wheel.

    That being said, automaton did and the implementation of now and more efficient systems does provide the opportunity to review how things are done. Unfortunately, all too often it comes down to a binary decision - either make the business fit the system (the SAP way) or make the system fit the business (the ORACLE way).

    The answer is somewhere in the middle - system evolution allows for processes to be challenged and re-examined while system configuration allows the technology to be used to best advantage.

    Unfortunately, both take time and the "JFDI" mentality takes over. I've seen so many examples of poor system implementation where the new system is put live without proper testing and often proper evaluation just to meet a senior manager's expectations. The old maxim "implement in haste, repent at leisure" soon comes for a visit.

    Whether it's LEAN or some other form of business process mapping, it should be a continuous process but of course it isn't. It's often driven by the need to cost cuts or drive out efficiencies.

    Where I agree with @Leon is AI will be a fundamental driver for business process change and renewal. The further automaton of basic transactional activities could simply be a cost cutting exercise or it could be an opportunity to upskill those workers affected.

    The ethical question is more interesting, There is a whole new sub-industry growing round data ethics which goes beyond the confines of data protection and subject access rights and the like and challenges the accumulation of personal data in both the private and public sectors over the past 20-30 years.

    When I'm asked about it, my head hurts....

    Ummm:

    I thought the Oracle way was spend $5m on consultants to make the software fit the business, then throw up your hands in disgust when it doesn't work. Then you try and change the business to fit the software and spend another $3m on consultants.

    And then you get another job and it becomes someone else's problem.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,779
    DavidL said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Ah, that header. The fights I have at work trying to resist the waves of 'just add another step! Throw more IT at a human problem!'.

    17 email reminders not enough? 18! 18 will solve it!

    People not doing things in the correct order? Add another report, another automated email, another sub-report, a manual yet automatic yet manual reminder email! Now we need a 19th reminder!

    Ok, now! For process 2 - we currently have 20 reminders, but some people still don't comply. If we make the wording for reminder 21 even more threatening and add 14 extra buttons then, then!...

    Do you work for Crown Office?
    Oddly enough, the person who is currently destroying the remaining IT support here came to us via the Crown Office...

    Meetings, re-organisations, skills-matrix, meetings, more meetings, charts, white-boards, more reports, ....
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,243
    ohnotnow said:

    Ah, that header. The fights I have at work trying to resist the waves of 'just add another step! Throw more IT at a human problem!'.

    17 email reminders not enough? 18! 18 will solve it!

    People not doing things in the correct order? Add another report, another automated email, another sub-report, a manual yet automatic yet manual reminder email! Now we need a 19th reminder!

    Ok, now! For process 2 - we currently have 20 reminders, but some people still don't comply. If we make the wording for reminder 21 even more threatening and add 14 extra buttons then, then!...

    You work for the KGB in Department 12?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,365
    Andy_JS said:

    Jeremy Clarkson on Millionaire just said Coventry is in Nottinghamshire.

    Too much of the old Hawkstone?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,801
    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Keir Starmer is vegetarian.
    So is Rishi Sunak.

    No wonder the country is buggered.

    Of course, being Sir Keir, he also eats animals
    Only aquatic vertebrates.
    Sounds fishy to me.
    Aquatic vertebrate, chips and mushy peas please.
    Axolotl? Dolphin? Mink?

    Edit: damn, preempted on 2 out of 3.
    He doesn't eat dolphins. That's about the one thing that might cost him the election if that came out.
    I remember the total panic when I was told that the rather nice fish I was eating in Miami was dolphin. I thought my daughters would never speak to me again. Thankfully, it turned out not to be that kind of dolphin.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,871

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I'm not sure I agree with all of @Malmesbury's header.

    The point about social workers needs clarification - the meticulous and necessary recording of conversations and meetings is an integral part of the role. It allows cases to be moved from one professional to another without an interruption. Social workers also need time and opportunity to process what they see and hear which can often be harrowing and a vital part of their working experience is the need to unload that to a senior colleague.

    The documenting of processes doesn't leave organisations dependent on experience so when old Bloggs heads to the Canaries after 30 years, the organisation doesn't have to re-invent the wheel.

    That being said, automaton did and the implementation of now and more efficient systems does provide the opportunity to review how things are done. Unfortunately, all too often it comes down to a binary decision - either make the business fit the system (the SAP way) or make the system fit the business (the ORACLE way).

    The answer is somewhere in the middle - system evolution allows for processes to be challenged and re-examined while system configuration allows the technology to be used to best advantage.

    Unfortunately, both take time and the "JFDI" mentality takes over. I've seen so many examples of poor system implementation where the new system is put live without proper testing and often proper evaluation just to meet a senior manager's expectations. The old maxim "implement in haste, repent at leisure" soon comes for a visit.

    Whether it's LEAN or some other form of business process mapping, it should be a continuous process but of course it isn't. It's often driven by the need to cost cuts or drive out efficiencies.

    Where I agree with @Leon is AI will be a fundamental driver for business process change and renewal. The further automaton of basic transactional activities could simply be a cost cutting exercise or it could be an opportunity to upskill those workers affected.

    The ethical question is more interesting, There is a whole new sub-industry growing round data ethics which goes beyond the confines of data protection and subject access rights and the like and challenges the accumulation of personal data in both the private and public sectors over the past 20-30 years.

    When I'm asked about it, my head hurts....

    The purpose of the Process to make a clear, simple, safe road for the journey of the professional, to the Goal.

    All else is false.
    I don't quite agree - the "Process" as you call it differentiates between the role of the "professional" and the support staff without whom the professional cannot function. A clear process makes everyone's role and responsibility clear and recognises and acknowledges where they are and what they do and how that contributes to the Goal.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,801
    ohnotnow said:

    DavidL said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Ah, that header. The fights I have at work trying to resist the waves of 'just add another step! Throw more IT at a human problem!'.

    17 email reminders not enough? 18! 18 will solve it!

    People not doing things in the correct order? Add another report, another automated email, another sub-report, a manual yet automatic yet manual reminder email! Now we need a 19th reminder!

    Ok, now! For process 2 - we currently have 20 reminders, but some people still don't comply. If we make the wording for reminder 21 even more threatening and add 14 extra buttons then, then!...

    Do you work for Crown Office?
    Oddly enough, the person who is currently destroying the remaining IT support here came to us via the Crown Office...

    Meetings, re-organisations, skills-matrix, meetings, more meetings, charts, white-boards, more reports, ....
    Fabulous alternatives to work.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I'm not sure I agree with all of @Malmesbury's header.

    The point about social workers needs clarification - the meticulous and necessary recording of conversations and meetings is an integral part of the role. It allows cases to be moved from one professional to another without an interruption. Social workers also need time and opportunity to process what they see and hear which can often be harrowing and a vital part of their working experience is the need to unload that to a senior colleague.

    The documenting of processes doesn't leave organisations dependent on experience so when old Bloggs heads to the Canaries after 30 years, the organisation doesn't have to re-invent the wheel.

    That being said, automaton did and the implementation of now and more efficient systems does provide the opportunity to review how things are done. Unfortunately, all too often it comes down to a binary decision - either make the business fit the system (the SAP way) or make the system fit the business (the ORACLE way).

    The answer is somewhere in the middle - system evolution allows for processes to be challenged and re-examined while system configuration allows the technology to be used to best advantage.

    Unfortunately, both take time and the "JFDI" mentality takes over. I've seen so many examples of poor system implementation where the new system is put live without proper testing and often proper evaluation just to meet a senior manager's expectations. The old maxim "implement in haste, repent at leisure" soon comes for a visit.

    Whether it's LEAN or some other form of business process mapping, it should be a continuous process but of course it isn't. It's often driven by the need to cost cuts or drive out efficiencies.

    Where I agree with @Leon is AI will be a fundamental driver for business process change and renewal. The further automaton of basic transactional activities could simply be a cost cutting exercise or it could be an opportunity to upskill those workers affected.

    The ethical question is more interesting, There is a whole new sub-industry growing round data ethics which goes beyond the confines of data protection and subject access rights and the like and challenges the accumulation of personal data in both the private and public sectors over the past 20-30 years.

    When I'm asked about it, my head hurts....

    I agree with @Malmesbury on his points but would emphasise good and properly applied process over bad, rather than less process good. Where you get bad process the root cause is usually something other than the process itself and is often linked to cultural issues in the organisation.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,214
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fffs said:

    Late to the party, but what an outstanding header from Malmesbury.

    I've worked for any number of crap companies in my life, and now work for an excellent one - and the difference is precisely that domain experts have outsize influence at the expense of the professional managers (of whom I am one, sort of), and that there is a great deal of emphasis on personal responsibility, human judgement, and simplification.

    The flip side of it is that there is nowhere for mediocre people to hide - you can see why that would be hard to replicate everywhere.

    That would never catch on in the Civil Service.

    We might get talented people instead of drunks with the right connections.
    Frank Herbert had quite a lot to say about administrative systems. I liked
    “Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock.”

    from Chapter House Dune.
    That still doesn't work for the DfE. It's in manifest chaos *and* it spends much of its time covering up its mistakes.
    So, given all the mistakes we do know about...

    1 Is the DfE as good as covering up mistakes as it is at everything else?

    2 Is it actually quite good at covering up mistakes so that we don't know about the worst of them?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653

    A usual moan about economic stagnation, rising prices, falling productivity, aging infrastructure.

    But this time its about Germany.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68181799

    Doubtless some Germans are blaming Olaf Scholz for their local market struggling or because a single minimum wage doesn't provide affluent living for a family of six.

    And similar pieces could be done about all developed countries.

    But moaning about things or blaming governments for not providing everything demanded isn't going to achieve anything anywhere.

    The way to improvement is through work not whining, through increasing productivity not increasing demands, through taking the opportunities on offer not expecting others to provide more.

    I appreciate that's a dig at me for raising the example of a working family whom we taxpayers have to subsidise. And to the extent it's a dig at me, fair enough.

    But it's also a snide shot at such working families and that's out of order.

    Ask yourself this: how have we arrived at a society where so many working people need support in order to rent basic accommodation, and to provide food and heating?

    Something's wrong with our current set-up.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,129

    If we were to see American nuclear warheads stationed in Britain could Trump use them as leverage over us in some way? We need to prepare for the the fact that in less than 12 months we may have a President of the United States who is an effective enemy of this country.

    We can't be sure how a second Trump Presidency will play out but the signs of closeness to Putin are ominous. Just as we are seeing greater co-ordination between China, Russia and Iran. Given how much Trump was a China hawk to begin with this seems curious. We may have to accept the freezing of the 'special' relationship.

    The best thing would be to given Ukraine more support now to hopefully weaken Putin as much as possible. Ridicule him as Beijing's poodle. Showing fealty towards such a figure would make Trump look ridiculous. And I don't think he wants to look ridiculous.

    Oh, it's pretty depressing.

    If you remember back to the beginning of the pandemic, Trump came out and said he'd spoken to Xi, and the two of them were working closely together, and he had "much respect" for him.

    Trump sees the world as a collection of great men, of which he is one, who sort out problems among themselves.

    These people transcend laws: they do what needs to be done.

    Sadly this is not a recipe for good governance. It is a recipe for a bunch of despots running the world.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,365

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fffs said:

    Late to the party, but what an outstanding header from Malmesbury.

    I've worked for any number of crap companies in my life, and now work for an excellent one - and the difference is precisely that domain experts have outsize influence at the expense of the professional managers (of whom I am one, sort of), and that there is a great deal of emphasis on personal responsibility, human judgement, and simplification.

    The flip side of it is that there is nowhere for mediocre people to hide - you can see why that would be hard to replicate everywhere.

    That would never catch on in the Civil Service.

    We might get talented people instead of drunks with the right connections.
    Frank Herbert had quite a lot to say about administrative systems. I liked
    “Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock.”

    from Chapter House Dune.
    That still doesn't work for the DfE. It's in manifest chaos *and* it spends much of its time covering up its mistakes.
    So, given all the mistakes we do know about...

    1 Is the DfE as good as covering up mistakes as it is at everything else?

    2 Is it actually quite good at covering up mistakes so that we don't know about the worst of them?
    Well, *so far* the issues around their covering up of multiple safeguarding breaches in government agencies dealing with children haven't hit the media.

    But, that was about a year after RAAC, so give it time.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,243
    Carnyx said:

    @Malmesbury - thank you for the header.

    Please can you please give a source/website to read further for the Valiant? I've read up on the Comet in some recent studies, no problem, but the Valiant issue isn't familiar.

    No definitive work in one place, sadly.

    DTD683 is a useful keyword.

    Most of the sources misunderstand the problem. It wasn’t Safe Life as such. All that means is that you should have x hours of activity y before structure z will fail. With a certain probability….

    The problem was that the alloy could be reduced to crumbling cheese without any stress of action. Just random luck. At any time. A lump on an engineers desk fell apart, by itself.

    The distribution plots of failure were a cloud without pattern.

    So you couldn’t predict *any* lifespan. Some parts lasted 60 years. The Valiant in a museum was checked recently. Most was fine.

    My favourite - in one early crash, the pilot was blamed. For being *too* experienced. Yes, the dreaded “the pilot knew too much about the job problem”.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,801
    rcs1000 said:

    If we were to see American nuclear warheads stationed in Britain could Trump use them as leverage over us in some way? We need to prepare for the the fact that in less than 12 months we may have a President of the United States who is an effective enemy of this country.

    We can't be sure how a second Trump Presidency will play out but the signs of closeness to Putin are ominous. Just as we are seeing greater co-ordination between China, Russia and Iran. Given how much Trump was a China hawk to begin with this seems curious. We may have to accept the freezing of the 'special' relationship.

    The best thing would be to given Ukraine more support now to hopefully weaken Putin as much as possible. Ridicule him as Beijing's poodle. Showing fealty towards such a figure would make Trump look ridiculous. And I don't think he wants to look ridiculous.

    Oh, it's pretty depressing.

    If you remember back to the beginning of the pandemic, Trump came out and said he'd spoken to Xi, and the two of them were working closely together, and he had "much respect" for him.

    Trump sees the world as a collection of great men, of which he is one, who sort out problems among themselves.

    These people transcend laws: they do what needs to be done.

    Sadly this is not a recipe for good governance. It is a recipe for a bunch of despots running the world.
    Why oh why would such a system appeal to Trump I wonder.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,243
    FF43 said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I'm not sure I agree with all of @Malmesbury's header.

    The point about social workers needs clarification - the meticulous and necessary recording of conversations and meetings is an integral part of the role. It allows cases to be moved from one professional to another without an interruption. Social workers also need time and opportunity to process what they see and hear which can often be harrowing and a vital part of their working experience is the need to unload that to a senior colleague.

    The documenting of processes doesn't leave organisations dependent on experience so when old Bloggs heads to the Canaries after 30 years, the organisation doesn't have to re-invent the wheel.

    That being said, automaton did and the implementation of now and more efficient systems does provide the opportunity to review how things are done. Unfortunately, all too often it comes down to a binary decision - either make the business fit the system (the SAP way) or make the system fit the business (the ORACLE way).

    The answer is somewhere in the middle - system evolution allows for processes to be challenged and re-examined while system configuration allows the technology to be used to best advantage.

    Unfortunately, both take time and the "JFDI" mentality takes over. I've seen so many examples of poor system implementation where the new system is put live without proper testing and often proper evaluation just to meet a senior manager's expectations. The old maxim "implement in haste, repent at leisure" soon comes for a visit.

    Whether it's LEAN or some other form of business process mapping, it should be a continuous process but of course it isn't. It's often driven by the need to cost cuts or drive out efficiencies.

    Where I agree with @Leon is AI will be a fundamental driver for business process change and renewal. The further automaton of basic transactional activities could simply be a cost cutting exercise or it could be an opportunity to upskill those workers affected.

    The ethical question is more interesting, There is a whole new sub-industry growing round data ethics which goes beyond the confines of data protection and subject access rights and the like and challenges the accumulation of personal data in both the private and public sectors over the past 20-30 years.

    When I'm asked about it, my head hurts....

    I agree with @Malmesbury on his points but would emphasise good and properly applied process over bad, rather than less process good. Where you get bad process the root cause is usually something other than the process itself and is often linked to cultural issues in the organisation.
    Toxic process is generally a symptom of a toxic organisation.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814

    Carnyx said:

    @Malmesbury - thank you for the header.

    Please can you please give a source/website to read further for the Valiant? I've read up on the Comet in some recent studies, no problem, but the Valiant issue isn't familiar.

    No definitive work in one place, sadly.

    DTD683 is a useful keyword.

    Most of the sources misunderstand the problem. It wasn’t Safe Life as such. All that means is that you should have x hours of activity y before structure z will fail. With a certain probability….

    The problem was that the alloy could be reduced to crumbling cheese without any stress of action. Just random luck. At any time. A lump on an engineers desk fell apart, by itself.

    The distribution plots of failure were a cloud without pattern.

    So you couldn’t predict *any* lifespan. Some parts lasted 60 years. The Valiant in a museum was checked recently. Most was fine.

    My favourite - in one early crash, the pilot was blamed. For being *too* experienced. Yes, the dreaded “the pilot knew too much about the job problem”.

    Thank you! Will have a delve.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,047
    edited February 4
    This is a nice piece on the US Right and populism, about their current obsession with Taylor Swift, but more generally about the nature of conspiratorial thinking and populism: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/01/31/taylor-swift-conspiracy-theories-gop-00138817
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,129
    Tech tip:

    I've changed my default search from Google to Perplexity. It's awesome. So awesome, in fact, that I've signed up to give them money money every month.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,243

    A usual moan about economic stagnation, rising prices, falling productivity, aging infrastructure.

    But this time its about Germany.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68181799

    Doubtless some Germans are blaming Olaf Scholz for their local market struggling or because a single minimum wage doesn't provide affluent living for a family of six.

    And similar pieces could be done about all developed countries.

    But moaning about things or blaming governments for not providing everything demanded isn't going to achieve anything anywhere.

    The way to improvement is through work not whining, through increasing productivity not increasing demands, through taking the opportunities on offer not expecting others to provide more.

    I appreciate that's a dig at me for raising the example of a working family whom we taxpayers have to subsidise. And to the extent it's a dig at me, fair enough.

    But it's also a snide shot at such working families and that's out of order.

    Ask yourself this: how have we arrived at a society where so many working people need support in order to rent basic accommodation, and to provide food and heating?

    Something's wrong with our current set-up.
    Don’t worry. There’s a Process for dealing with that.

    Ok, the process results in hypothermia and starvation for the family.

    But the paperwork is awesome.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,243

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fffs said:

    Late to the party, but what an outstanding header from Malmesbury.

    I've worked for any number of crap companies in my life, and now work for an excellent one - and the difference is precisely that domain experts have outsize influence at the expense of the professional managers (of whom I am one, sort of), and that there is a great deal of emphasis on personal responsibility, human judgement, and simplification.

    The flip side of it is that there is nowhere for mediocre people to hide - you can see why that would be hard to replicate everywhere.

    That would never catch on in the Civil Service.

    We might get talented people instead of drunks with the right connections.
    Frank Herbert had quite a lot to say about administrative systems. I liked
    “Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock.”

    from Chapter House Dune.
    That still doesn't work for the DfE. It's in manifest chaos *and* it spends much of its time covering up its mistakes.
    So, given all the mistakes we do know about...

    1 Is the DfE as good as covering up mistakes as it is at everything else?

    2 Is it actually quite good at covering up mistakes so that we don't know about the worst of them?
    3 it makes so many mistakes that most of the mistakes are hidden behind the mistakes that are hidden behind the mistakes…
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,058
    rcs1000 said:

    Tech tip:

    I've changed my default search from Google to Perplexity. It's awesome. So awesome, in fact, that I've signed up to give them money money every month.

    I love money money
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,243
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    @Malmesbury - thank you for the header.

    Please can you please give a source/website to read further for the Valiant? I've read up on the Comet in some recent studies, no problem, but the Valiant issue isn't familiar.

    No definitive work in one place, sadly.

    DTD683 is a useful keyword.

    Most of the sources misunderstand the problem. It wasn’t Safe Life as such. All that means is that you should have x hours of activity y before structure z will fail. With a certain probability….

    The problem was that the alloy could be reduced to crumbling cheese without any stress of action. Just random luck. At any time. A lump on an engineers desk fell apart, by itself.

    The distribution plots of failure were a cloud without pattern.

    So you couldn’t predict *any* lifespan. Some parts lasted 60 years. The Valiant in a museum was checked recently. Most was fine.

    My favourite - in one early crash, the pilot was blamed. For being *too* experienced. Yes, the dreaded “the pilot knew too much about the job problem”.

    Thank you! Will have a delve.
    https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/267929-valiant-crash-wittering-august-1960-a.html

    Is one place.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    Many thanks for the thought-provoking thread header @Malmesbury. I wouldn't disagree with any of the points made.

    Incompetent people certainly hide behind process but good processes do add value. The problem is: processes are frequently 'enhanced' (which tends to mean added to) and seldom simplified, so they grow ever more cumbersome.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,770

    This is a nice piece on the US Right and populism, about their current obsession with Taylor Swift, but more generally about the nature of conspiratorial thinking and populism: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/01/31/taylor-swift-conspiracy-theories-gop-00138817

    Yes I think that this is a clear indication that Trump will lose in November. Swift is as bland, unthreatening and mainstream as they come - she sings highly relatable catchy songs that appeal to teenage girls and is dating a football player - so if MAGA Republicanism has decided that Swift is the enemy it suggests it is way too detached from regular American society to win.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,703

    This is a nice piece on the US Right and populism, about their current obsession with Taylor Swift, but more generally about the nature of conspiratorial thinking and populism: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/01/31/taylor-swift-conspiracy-theories-gop-00138817

    Yes I think that this is a clear indication that Trump will lose in November. Swift is as bland, unthreatening and mainstream as they come - she sings highly relatable catchy songs that appeal to teenage girls and is dating a football player - so if MAGA Republicanism has decided that Swift is the enemy it suggests it is way too detached from regular American society to win.
    MAGA is effectively at war with "regular American society".

    So makes perfect sense to go after one its icons.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631

    This is a nice piece on the US Right and populism, about their current obsession with Taylor Swift, but more generally about the nature of conspiratorial thinking and populism: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/01/31/taylor-swift-conspiracy-theories-gop-00138817

    Yes I think that this is a clear indication that Trump will lose in November. Swift is as bland, unthreatening and mainstream as they come - she sings highly relatable catchy songs that appeal to teenage girls and is dating a football player - so if MAGA Republicanism has decided that Swift is the enemy it suggests it is way too detached from regular American society to win.
    Swift is as bland as they come, it's incredible that the MAGA mentalists take objection to her forgettable pop.

  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 692
    rcs1000 said:

    If we were to see American nuclear warheads stationed in Britain could Trump use them as leverage over us in some way? We need to prepare for the the fact that in less than 12 months we may have a President of the United States who is an effective enemy of this country.

    We can't be sure how a second Trump Presidency will play out but the signs of closeness to Putin are ominous. Just as we are seeing greater co-ordination between China, Russia and Iran. Given how much Trump was a China hawk to begin with this seems curious. We may have to accept the freezing of the 'special' relationship.

    The best thing would be to given Ukraine more support now to hopefully weaken Putin as much as possible. Ridicule him as Beijing's poodle. Showing fealty towards such a figure would make Trump look ridiculous. And I don't think he wants to look ridiculous.

    Oh, it's pretty depressing.

    If you remember back to the beginning of the pandemic, Trump came out and said he'd spoken to Xi, and the two of them were working closely together, and he had "much respect" for him.

    Trump sees the world as a collection of great men, of which he is one, who sort out problems among themselves.

    These people transcend laws: they do what needs to be done.

    Sadly this is not a recipe for good governance. It is a recipe for a bunch of despots running the world.
    Trump is a traditional gilded age style robber baron and he conducts foreign policy along those lines. With peers like Xi you do everything you can to screw them over in business but you still dine and drink with them socially. He’s a China hawk in the sense that he’ll do anything to give the US an advantage over China but that doesn’t preclude a chummy admiration for Xi. The problem is that the USA is his company not Europe so he doesn’t see any reason to help us out.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,047
    Stereodog said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If we were to see American nuclear warheads stationed in Britain could Trump use them as leverage over us in some way? We need to prepare for the the fact that in less than 12 months we may have a President of the United States who is an effective enemy of this country.

    We can't be sure how a second Trump Presidency will play out but the signs of closeness to Putin are ominous. Just as we are seeing greater co-ordination between China, Russia and Iran. Given how much Trump was a China hawk to begin with this seems curious. We may have to accept the freezing of the 'special' relationship.

    The best thing would be to given Ukraine more support now to hopefully weaken Putin as much as possible. Ridicule him as Beijing's poodle. Showing fealty towards such a figure would make Trump look ridiculous. And I don't think he wants to look ridiculous.

    Oh, it's pretty depressing.

    If you remember back to the beginning of the pandemic, Trump came out and said he'd spoken to Xi, and the two of them were working closely together, and he had "much respect" for him.

    Trump sees the world as a collection of great men, of which he is one, who sort out problems among themselves.

    These people transcend laws: they do what needs to be done.

    Sadly this is not a recipe for good governance. It is a recipe for a bunch of despots running the world.
    Trump is a traditional gilded age style robber baron and he conducts foreign policy along those lines. With peers like Xi you do everything you can to screw them over in business but you still dine and drink with them socially. He’s a China hawk in the sense that he’ll do anything to give the US an advantage over China but that doesn’t preclude a chummy admiration for Xi. The problem is that the USA is his company not Europe so he doesn’t see any reason to help us out.
    The other problem is he’s lousy at running companies, as demonstrated by a string of bankruptcies, lost court cases and fraud allegations.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,243
    Foxy said:

    This is a nice piece on the US Right and populism, about their current obsession with Taylor Swift, but more generally about the nature of conspiratorial thinking and populism: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/01/31/taylor-swift-conspiracy-theories-gop-00138817

    Yes I think that this is a clear indication that Trump will lose in November. Swift is as bland, unthreatening and mainstream as they come - she sings highly relatable catchy songs that appeal to teenage girls and is dating a football player - so if MAGA Republicanism has decided that Swift is the enemy it suggests it is way too detached from regular American society to win.
    Swift is as bland as they come, it's incredible that the MAGA mentalists take objection to her forgettable pop.

    Yup, as opposed to say, Marilyn Manson. Who is objectively objectible.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,243
    Stereodog said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If we were to see American nuclear warheads stationed in Britain could Trump use them as leverage over us in some way? We need to prepare for the the fact that in less than 12 months we may have a President of the United States who is an effective enemy of this country.

    We can't be sure how a second Trump Presidency will play out but the signs of closeness to Putin are ominous. Just as we are seeing greater co-ordination between China, Russia and Iran. Given how much Trump was a China hawk to begin with this seems curious. We may have to accept the freezing of the 'special' relationship.

    The best thing would be to given Ukraine more support now to hopefully weaken Putin as much as possible. Ridicule him as Beijing's poodle. Showing fealty towards such a figure would make Trump look ridiculous. And I don't think he wants to look ridiculous.

    Oh, it's pretty depressing.

    If you remember back to the beginning of the pandemic, Trump came out and said he'd spoken to Xi, and the two of them were working closely together, and he had "much respect" for him.

    Trump sees the world as a collection of great men, of which he is one, who sort out problems among themselves.

    These people transcend laws: they do what needs to be done.

    Sadly this is not a recipe for good governance. It is a recipe for a bunch of despots running the world.
    Trump is a traditional gilded age style robber baron and he conducts foreign policy along those lines. With peers like Xi you do everything you can to screw them over in business but you still dine and drink with them socially. He’s a China hawk in the sense that he’ll do anything to give the US an advantage over China but that doesn’t preclude a chummy admiration for Xi. The problem is that the USA is his company not Europe so he doesn’t see any reason to help us out.
    Trump likes to think he is a “gilded age style robber baron”, maybe.

    Carnegie would have passed on him as liftboy, I think.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,243

    Many thanks for the thought-provoking thread header @Malmesbury. I wouldn't disagree with any of the points made.

    Incompetent people certainly hide behind process but good processes do add value. The problem is: processes are frequently 'enhanced' (which tends to mean added to) and seldom simplified, so they grow ever more cumbersome.

    Creative destruction. From time to time.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,412
    I wouldn't feel it an enormous loss if I didn't have to read about Taylor Swift or the MAGA organisation when logging on to PB. I'm happy to say that her oeuvre has largely passed me by.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    rcs1000 said:

    Tech tip:

    I've changed my default search from Google to Perplexity. It's awesome. So awesome, in fact, that I've signed up to give them money money every month.

    Is it better than kagi.com? I'm paying kagi.com.

    Either way I think a paid search engine is a good investment. Google will happily sell the top spot on your search results page to a scammer, and getting scammed will be way more expensive than paying for a non-scammer-funded search engine.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    edited February 4

    Many thanks for the thought-provoking thread header @Malmesbury. I wouldn't disagree with any of the points made.

    Incompetent people certainly hide behind process but good processes do add value. The problem is: processes are frequently 'enhanced' (which tends to mean added to) and seldom simplified, so they grow ever more cumbersome.

    Creative destruction. From time to time.
    Yes, I saw it go go full circle in IT development during my career, from the early days of 'just describe what you want and we'll code it' to vastly overblown (imo) methodologies like PRINCE2 etc. and then back to simpler Agile development.

    Very hard to challenge the status quo though when the organisation has invested £millions in the silver bullet of a set of processes that 'must be followed'.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,703
    Sure as eggs is eggs, youth crime will explode in Brum in coming years.

    Tragic to see my home town brought this low...



    Sam Freedman
    @Samfr
    Birmingham children's services to be cut by around 25%. First wave of cuts include these. This is a very obvious disaster in the making.

    https://birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/birminghams-vulnerable-kids-families-face-28552371

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    I wouldn't feel it an enormous loss if I didn't have to read about Taylor Swift or the MAGA organisation when logging on to PB. I'm happy to say that her oeuvre has largely passed me by.

    You young sophisticate.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    This is a nice piece on the US Right and populism, about their current obsession with Taylor Swift, but more generally about the nature of conspiratorial thinking and populism: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/01/31/taylor-swift-conspiracy-theories-gop-00138817

    Yes I think that this is a clear indication that Trump will lose in November. Swift is as bland, unthreatening and mainstream as they come - she sings highly relatable catchy songs that appeal to teenage girls and is dating a football player - so if MAGA Republicanism has decided that Swift is the enemy it suggests it is way too detached from regular American society to win.
    I was quite surprised by the gender profile of Taylor Swift fans - reportedly 52/48 women/men. I though it might be more skewed than that.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    Nigelb said:

    I wouldn't feel it an enormous loss if I didn't have to read about Taylor Swift or the MAGA organisation when logging on to PB. I'm happy to say that her oeuvre has largely passed me by.

    You young sophisticate.
    Haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,243

    I wouldn't feel it an enormous loss if I didn't have to read about Taylor Swift or the MAGA organisation when logging on to PB. I'm happy to say that her oeuvre has largely passed me by.

    Bring me the blandest thing on the menu.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    This idiot swore an oath to uphold the Constitution when he was elected to the Senate.

    Vance on what he would've done on January 6: "If I had been VP I would've told the states like Pennsylvania, Georgia, and so many others that we needed to have multiple slates of electors, and I think the US Congress should've fought over it from there."
    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1754179797775691923

    I guess he wants the opportunity to do so again as VP.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,703
    Nigelb said:

    This idiot swore an oath to uphold the Constitution when he was elected to the Senate.

    Vance on what he would've done on January 6: "If I had been VP I would've told the states like Pennsylvania, Georgia, and so many others that we needed to have multiple slates of electors, and I think the US Congress should've fought over it from there."
    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1754179797775691923

    I guess he wants the opportunity to do so again as VP.

    Yep.

    Quite a journey Mr Vance has been on.

    Historians will cite him as an example of the mental contortions so many in GOP went through in order to join the Cult in the hope of some crumbs from the crown.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653

    rcs1000 said:

    Tech tip:

    I've changed my default search from Google to Perplexity. It's awesome. So awesome, in fact, that I've signed up to give them money money every month.

    Is it better than kagi.com? I'm paying kagi.com.

    Either way I think a paid search engine is a good investment. Google will happily sell the top spot on your search results page to a scammer, and getting scammed will be way more expensive than paying for a non-scammer-funded search engine.
    Yebbut... only if you allow yourself to be scammed, shirley?

    Has any PBer ever been scammed by the top results in a Google search?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    Turns out Tucker Carlson isn't on holiday in Moscow he's doing an interview with Putin.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984

    Stereodog said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If we were to see American nuclear warheads stationed in Britain could Trump use them as leverage over us in some way? We need to prepare for the the fact that in less than 12 months we may have a President of the United States who is an effective enemy of this country.

    We can't be sure how a second Trump Presidency will play out but the signs of closeness to Putin are ominous. Just as we are seeing greater co-ordination between China, Russia and Iran. Given how much Trump was a China hawk to begin with this seems curious. We may have to accept the freezing of the 'special' relationship.

    The best thing would be to given Ukraine more support now to hopefully weaken Putin as much as possible. Ridicule him as Beijing's poodle. Showing fealty towards such a figure would make Trump look ridiculous. And I don't think he wants to look ridiculous.

    Oh, it's pretty depressing.

    If you remember back to the beginning of the pandemic, Trump came out and said he'd spoken to Xi, and the two of them were working closely together, and he had "much respect" for him.

    Trump sees the world as a collection of great men, of which he is one, who sort out problems among themselves.

    These people transcend laws: they do what needs to be done.

    Sadly this is not a recipe for good governance. It is a recipe for a bunch of despots running the world.
    Trump is a traditional gilded age style robber baron and he conducts foreign policy along those lines. With peers like Xi you do everything you can to screw them over in business but you still dine and drink with them socially. He’s a China hawk in the sense that he’ll do anything to give the US an advantage over China but that doesn’t preclude a chummy admiration for Xi. The problem is that the USA is his company not Europe so he doesn’t see any reason to help us out.
    The other problem is he’s lousy at running companies, as demonstrated by a string of bankruptcies, lost court cases and fraud allegations.
    Trump business genius is the American answer to Corbyn 2017 election winner or Nigel Farage working class man of the people.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826

    This is a nice piece on the US Right and populism, about their current obsession with Taylor Swift, but more generally about the nature of conspiratorial thinking and populism: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/01/31/taylor-swift-conspiracy-theories-gop-00138817

    Yes I think that this is a clear indication that Trump will lose in November. Swift is as bland, unthreatening and mainstream as they come - she sings highly relatable catchy songs that appeal to teenage girls and is dating a football player - so if MAGA Republicanism has decided that Swift is the enemy it suggests it is way too detached from regular American society to win.
    Frank Luntz thinks otherwise. Maybe he's exaggerating to get the Democrats to see sense on Biden but it takes a brave person to disagree with him.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited February 4

    rcs1000 said:

    Tech tip:

    I've changed my default search from Google to Perplexity. It's awesome. So awesome, in fact, that I've signed up to give them money money every month.

    Is it better than kagi.com? I'm paying kagi.com.

    Either way I think a paid search engine is a good investment. Google will happily sell the top spot on your search results page to a scammer, and getting scammed will be way more expensive than paying for a non-scammer-funded search engine.
    Yebbut... only if you allow yourself to be scammed, shirley?

    Has any PBer ever been scammed by the top results in a Google search?
    I personally haven't as far as I know, although you can never be sure if someone's tricked you into installing malware and you haven't detected it yet. I have a relative who was scammed by fake antivirus software. I also know some fairly technically sophisticated crypto people who were scammed like this. It's particularly tricksy as modern browsers love to turn anything that isn't a perfect URL into a search, so if you have a typo in a URL it will show you a page where the first result is a scam.

    In theory you should be able to avoid it if you're careful but nobody succeeds in being careful all the time. Don't take the risk. Pay for a search engine that isn't funded by scams.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,258
    Foxy said:

    This is a nice piece on the US Right and populism, about their current obsession with Taylor Swift, but more generally about the nature of conspiratorial thinking and populism: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/01/31/taylor-swift-conspiracy-theories-gop-00138817

    Yes I think that this is a clear indication that Trump will lose in November. Swift is as bland, unthreatening and mainstream as they come - she sings highly relatable catchy songs that appeal to teenage girls and is dating a football player - so if MAGA Republicanism has decided that Swift is the enemy it suggests it is way too detached from regular American society to win.
    Swift is as bland as they come, it's incredible that the MAGA mentalists take objection to her forgettable pop.

    Taylor Swift is not bland. Her best songs are solid gold pop classics, a great rarity in these declining times
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984

    Turns out Tucker Carlson isn't on holiday in Moscow he's doing an interview with Putin.

    Putting aside his rank treachery and quisling motivations for going, if this is his first time there I’m sure he’ll enjoy it. Beautiful and fascinating city, generally pretty welcoming people, although hideous traffic jams everywhere and not the best time of year to visit.
This discussion has been closed.