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The long road to a united Ireland – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited February 15 in General
imageThe long road to a united Ireland – politicalbetting.com

"I'm honoured to stand here as First Minister. We mark a moment of equality and a moment of progress. A new opportunity to work and grow together."Michelle O'Neill speaks at Stormont as she makes history as NI's first nationalist FM.https://t.co/qZ4xG2V8b0? Sky 501 pic.twitter.com/xxrumEM1uM

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Comments

  • darkagedarkage Posts: 4,613
    The situation in Northern Ireland may be one that is just too complicated to ever resolve, particularly when questions of money come in to play. The most likely outcome is that it remains indefinitely in convenient ambiguity.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 44,916
    Yeah, not gonna happen. Next
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 4,613
    On the subject of dodgy computer systems

    I have been travelling regularly on Ryanair. I would advise always printing out your boarding pass and not trusting their 'app'. Quite often the boarding pass disappears from the app after you have checked in or mysteriously cannot be retrieved just before the flight due to some 'technical issue'. At the least, if you use the app and get a boarding pass on it, take a screenshot of the boarding pass.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,258
    darkage said:

    On the subject of dodgy computer systems

    I have been travelling regularly on Ryanair. I would advise always printing out your boarding pass and not trusting their 'app'. Quite often the boarding pass disappears from the app after you have checked in or mysteriously cannot be retrieved just before the flight due to some 'technical issue'. At the least, if you use the app and get a boarding pass on it, take a screenshot of the boarding pass.

    Unless there was no other way, I would avoid the Company like the plague. I don't like the owner, not the way he does business.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,768
    Sinn Fein won't miss their shot like the SNP did. Particularly, if they are in power in the 26 and the 6 by the time the vote comes as is, at least, possible.

    Tiocfaidh ar la.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 44,916
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sinn Fein won't miss their shot like the SNP did. Particularly, if they are in power in the 26 and the 6 by the time the vote comes as is, at least, possible.

    Tiocfaidh ar la.

    Nah. If there is a vote, and if it looks like being remotely close (polls now are 50/30 against reunification) then some proddy hooligans will set off a couple of bombs and everyone will step back and think hmmm no, not today

    As @darkage says, it will fudged and finessed for the foreseeable
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,243
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sinn Fein won't miss their shot like the SNP did. Particularly, if they are in power in the 26 and the 6 by the time the vote comes as is, at least, possible.

    Tiocfaidh ar la.

    Does a border poll have to be held on both sides of the border, or just in the North?
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 4,613

    darkage said:

    On the subject of dodgy computer systems

    I have been travelling regularly on Ryanair. I would advise always printing out your boarding pass and not trusting their 'app'. Quite often the boarding pass disappears from the app after you have checked in or mysteriously cannot be retrieved just before the flight due to some 'technical issue'. At the least, if you use the app and get a boarding pass on it, take a screenshot of the boarding pass.

    Unless there was no other way, I would avoid the Company like the plague. I don't like the owner, not the way he does business.
    Yeah you wonder about the failings described above, given the various stories about people being forced to pay 50+ euros at the airport to 'reprint' their boarding pass. On the other hand though the 'legacy' airlines pull stunts like cancelling your return leg when you miss the outbound trip, which Ryanair do not do.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 4,613
    There is quite a decent film that, in part, satirises life as a flight attendant for a certain low cost carrier.

    https://mubi.com/en/fi/films/zero-fucks-given
  • LeonLeon Posts: 44,916
    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sinn Fein won't miss their shot like the SNP did. Particularly, if they are in power in the 26 and the 6 by the time the vote comes as is, at least, possible.

    Tiocfaidh ar la.

    Does a border poll have to be held on both sides of the border, or just in the North?
    Both
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,591
    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sinn Fein won't miss their shot like the SNP did. Particularly, if they are in power in the 26 and the 6 by the time the vote comes as is, at least, possible.

    Tiocfaidh ar la.

    Does a border poll have to be held on both sides of the border, or just in the North?
    Both
    Don't give England and Wales ideas
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 46,805
    edited February 4
    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sinn Fein won't miss their shot like the SNP did. Particularly, if they are in power in the 26 and the 6 by the time the vote comes as is, at least, possible.

    Tiocfaidh ar la.

    Does a border poll have to be held on both sides of the border, or just in the North?
    Both, according to the GFA.

    The key statistic is that while the self-identifying nationalist population is growing at the expense of the self-identifying unionist, those seeing themselves as neither is growing the fastest of all (hence the continuing growth of the alliance party). And a significant majority of those ‘in the middle’ consistently say they would rather stay in the UK.

    That said, the economic and social progress made within the Republic makes it more of an attractive destination now, than it was as a reactionary church-controlled society in times past. One silver lining that has emerged from the long history of church scandals.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,243
    Thanks to those who replied.

    My assumption would be that the South would emotionally desire reunification - the question might be whether they would be willing to pay the largeish bill that would come with it. At the moment, Northern Ireland is something of a dead loss economically and it has rather more generous public services than in the Republic.

    Of course, Sinn Féin's manifesto for Ireland includes an expansion in the south - e.g. an NHS style universal FPU healthcare system. So that may cease to matter as much if they are in power in Stormont and Dublin.

    And Sinn Fein have got the key economic portfolios in the new executive, so if it lasts for any length of time they have the opportunity to try and sort out the North's economy. Whether they have the imagination and ability to do so may be a rather different question.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,243
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sinn Fein won't miss their shot like the SNP did. Particularly, if they are in power in the 26 and the 6 by the time the vote comes as is, at least, possible.

    Tiocfaidh ar la.

    Does a border poll have to be held on both sides of the border, or just in the North?
    Both
    Don't give England and Wales ideas
    Why? Wouldn't you want them to have a chance to give Scotland independence?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,243
    England being pounded into absolute rubble here.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,184
    Leon said:

    Yeah, not gonna happen. Next

    I think it’s inevitable, makes perfect cultural and geopolitical sense and has only been hastened by the Brexit vote.


  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,243
    edited February 4
    Interesting, in light of yesterday's discussion on the subject, to note that OFSTED has itself come out swinging on the subject of alternative provision (I.e. schools for those who have to be removed from mainstream schools):

    https://schoolsweek.co.uk/ap-in-desperate-need-of-reform-damning-ofsted-and-cqc-report-says/

    Perhaps we're seeing the first impact of somebody who has actually worked in education being put back in charge? Although I am assuming given the length of it and the complexity it must have been commissioned by Spielman.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,768
    ydoethur said:

    Thanks to those who replied.

    My assumption would be that the South would emotionally desire reunification - the question might be whether they would be willing to pay the largeish bill that would come with it.

    The USA (if it still exists) will chuck a few Euros in the pot. As will the EU (if it still exists). It's a great emotional prize for both and they will facilitate by any means necessary.

    I think fans of the ongoing occupation of the 6C are making the mistakes Remain did with utilitarian and instrumental arguments.

    Feels > Reals.
  • Talk about a Brexit dividend. Let's hope. 🇮🇪

    That was going to be the headline

    ‘The first real Brexit dividend’

    But I didn’t want to be accused of trolling.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 44,916
    Dura_Ace said:

    ydoethur said:

    Thanks to those who replied.

    My assumption would be that the South would emotionally desire reunification - the question might be whether they would be willing to pay the largeish bill that would come with it.

    The USA (if it still exists) will chuck a few Euros in the pot. As will the EU (if it still exists). It's a great emotional prize for both and they will facilitate by any means necessary.

    I think fans of the ongoing occupation of the 6C are making the mistakes Remain did with utilitarian and instrumental arguments.

    Feels > Reals.
    "occupation"

    lol
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,529
    edited February 4

    Leon said:

    Yeah, not gonna happen. Next

    I think it’s inevitable, makes perfect cultural and geopolitical sense and has only been hastened by the Brexit vote.


    Good morning one and all.
    I would agree that it makes geopolitical sense and to some extent, cultural sense, but I do wonder with a reunification would lead to the return to England and Scotland of the grandchildren of the Plantation. Obviously the Republic is not the quasi theocracy that it was until a few years ago, but I don’t think the attitudes led to the separation a century ago have died out.
  • Leon said:

    Yeah, not gonna happen. Next

    Leondamus had spoken, Ireland to be reunified by next weekend.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 6,751

    Leon said:

    Yeah, not gonna happen. Next

    I think it’s inevitable, makes perfect cultural and geopolitical sense and has only been hastened by the Brexit vote.


    Good morning one and all.
    I would agree that it makes geopolitical sense and to some extent, cultural sense, but I do wonder with a reunification would lead to the return to England and Scotland of the grandchildren of the Plantation. Obviously the Republic is not the quasi theocracy that it was until a few years ago, but I don’t think the attitudes led to the separation a century ago have died out.
    I think there’s a question of whether Northen Ireland would just become fully integrated into the Republic, or whether it would retain a special status, a degree of autonomy, and thus power-sharing.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 43,514
    ydoethur said:

    Thanks to those who replied.

    My assumption would be that the South would emotionally desire reunification - the question might be whether they would be willing to pay the largeish bill that would come with it. At the moment, Northern Ireland is something of a dead loss economically and it has rather more generous public services than in the Republic.

    Of course, Sinn Féin's manifesto for Ireland includes an expansion in the south - e.g. an NHS style universal FPU healthcare system. So that may cease to matter as much if they are in power in Stormont and Dublin.

    And Sinn Fein have got the key economic portfolios in the new executive, so if it lasts for any length of time they have the opportunity to try and sort out the North's economy. Whether they have the imagination and ability to do so may be a rather different question.

    While NI does have more generous public services in theory, in practice these are non functional. They publish their statistics here, so we can see waiting lists reach 4 years for routine ENT treatment in Belfast:

    https://online.hscni.net/my-waiting-times-ni/bhsct/bt-treatments/

    RoI healthcare has its own issues, but is functional. While some pay nothing, the average citizen pays £500 per year in medical charges, with fees for public healthcare and a larger private system. Overall results are generally superior to the NHS.

    https://www.movehub.com/uk/moving-abroad/ireland/healthcare-for-expats/

  • That has to be the plumbest LBW not to be have given by the on field umpire in recent times.

    England will now win this.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,243
    172 overs on a vicious wicket mostly standing up and so far not a single bye conceded.

    Let's hear it for Foakes' keeping even as England totter to defeat.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 43,514

    Leon said:

    Yeah, not gonna happen. Next

    I think it’s inevitable, makes perfect cultural and geopolitical sense and has only been hastened by the Brexit vote.


    Good morning one and all.
    I would agree that it makes geopolitical sense and to some extent, cultural sense, but I do wonder with a reunification would lead to the return to England and Scotland of the grandchildren of the Plantation. Obviously the Republic is not the quasi theocracy that it was until a few years ago, but I don’t think the attitudes led to the separation a century ago have died out.
    I am not sure that hard line Ulster Unionists will find RUK to their liking. This island has moved on too.

    Some might move here, but most would stay and form a block in the Irish Parliament, which ironically might be an abstentionist one.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 43,514
    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.
  • ajbajb Posts: 102
    In Scotland, the leader who achieves independence becomes the first leader of a new nation. In northern Ireland, they become what - head of northern Ireland county council? Minster for unification?
    A less independent role anyway. So, they need to both be a true believer, and like the then-current Taoiseach; or be willing for that to be the culmination of their career .
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,880
    Foxy said:

    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.

    Finishing third behind REFUK could be fatal for him.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,498
    Foxy said:

    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.

    Yes they could be but the only possible next leader who might improve Conservative prospects is Penny Mordaunt who'd never get past the headbangers anyway.
  • ydoethur said:

    Thanks to those who replied.

    My assumption would be that the South would emotionally desire reunification - the question might be whether they would be willing to pay the largeish bill that would come with it. At the moment, Northern Ireland is something of a dead loss economically and it has rather more generous public services than in the Republic.

    Of course, Sinn Féin's manifesto for Ireland includes an expansion in the south - e.g. an NHS style universal FPU healthcare system. So that may cease to matter as much if they are in power in Stormont and Dublin.

    And Sinn Fein have got the key economic portfolios in the new executive, so if it lasts for any length of time they have the opportunity to try and sort out the North's economy. Whether they have the imagination and ability to do so may be a rather different question.

    I agree and think we are getting way ahead of ourselves in believing there is a majority for unification in either the north or the south. This 2021 article and polling made it clear just how much economic costs will come into play: https://www.politico.eu/article/poll-ireland-unification-support-costs-brexit/.

    Just this week, the UK ploughed £3 billion into NI. The Republic simply doesn't have the firepower to do that on the regularity that would be needed. Remember, we had to bail out their banks in 2008.

    Many non-aligned will look at that and say "Nah..let's keep the safety blanket in place." If the outcome of Brexit has shown us one thing it is that warm fuzzy glows about 'taking control' don't pay the bills.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 43,514
    This is a remarkeable turnaround in the last decade and a bit:

    "She warned that Britain’s previously thriving pharmaceutical sector was now in a trade deficit because we have to import so much more medicine than before – the latest 2022 figures show a $5bn deficit globally, compared with a surplus of $9.7bn in 2010."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/04/brexit-trade-perks-firms-business-department-leaving-eu-companies
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,498
    Foxy said:

    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.

    No Conservatives on the ground but plenty for the other side. Sounds like another argument for a January 2025 election, to sweep opposition activists from the street over the holidays while not affecting the rarely seen Tory footsoldiers.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,591

    Foxy said:

    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.

    Finishing third behind REFUK could be fatal for him.
    Is that possible? 😲 Is there any data/analysis suggesting that?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 13,743

    Foxy said:

    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.

    This quote is pretty priceless:

    When he voted Conservative in 2019 – to “get Brexit done” – Holden had hoped things would get better, that the town’s good times would return. “But I see very little that has changed,” he says. “Where are all the new hospitals? I don’t see them. Bills are up, and prices are up. And the boats are still a real problem.

    There were, it seems, people who actually believed that shit from Dan Hannan.
    The genius and the stupidity of the campaigns of 2019 and 2016.

    You can win a vote by making a lot of damnfool promises. But if you win, you then have to keep those promises. If you don't (which is likely given how damnfool the promises were), retribution will be brutal.

    The Conservatives strapped themselves into a torture device in 2019. And by getting rid of the Rory Stewart wing of the party, they basically threw away the key. Now, they can't get out.
  • The interesting development on Ireland is the rise of Sinn Fein. We may end up with Sinn Fein in government in both parts of the Island.

    The obvious ploy then would be to start the alignment process for unification. A border poll would be a lot easier to win if citizens wherever they live can see similar things happening at the same time.

    As for the remaining hardcore loyalist community, surely the solution is simple. Retain your British passports and citizenship. NI ceased to be indivisibly British when devolution happened. Now NI is separate from GB from a trading perspective. The mission to stay “British” has failed. They are not - and from a governance position only the English remain wholly under Westminster. I wonder when the DUP will accept what they have done?
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,880
    Eabhal said:

    Foxy said:

    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.

    Finishing third behind REFUK could be fatal for him.
    Is that possible? 😲 Is there any data/analysis suggesting that?
    I'm not saying it's going to happen, but it's definitely possible.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,768
    Foxy said:

    This is a remarkeable turnaround in the last decade and a bit:

    "She warned that Britain’s previously thriving pharmaceutical sector was now in a trade deficit because we have to import so much more medicine than before – the latest 2022 figures show a $5bn deficit globally, compared with a surplus of $9.7bn in 2010."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/04/brexit-trade-perks-firms-business-department-leaving-eu-companies

    That photo of the tory hq is as evocative as Tragedy by the Sea.

  • Foxy said:

    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.

    Finishing third behind REFUK could be fatal for him.
    Let’s play the scenario. The story voter collapses as described. The remaining story vote prefers the reactionary right than the whatever the fuck Sunak is supposed to be right. The polls don’t just now show ELE in the future, they can see the career-killing lump of rock glowing ever-brighter in the sky.

    So they do in Sunak and stick in Braverman. What then? Your average FUKer is not making rational objections to policy, only emotional ones. They - like the Corbynites - do not want practical solutions because reality is compromise. They want absolutist fantasy solutions.

    You cannot disarm emotional objections with facts and rationale. A Braverman Tory party - assuming it doesn’t split - would still not fully satisfy the FUKers because what they want is a fantasy. So they would lose another chunk of their remaining vote (a third?) and only recapture part of the FUKer vote.

    Instead of deflecting the ELE killer rock, they would accelerate it…
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,339
    And the Oscar goes to…..

    https://x.com/mercurius_scot/status/1754061246989586574?s=61

    Rather savage but comical effort here.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,880

    Foxy said:

    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.

    This quote is pretty priceless:

    When he voted Conservative in 2019 – to “get Brexit done” – Holden had hoped things would get better, that the town’s good times would return. “But I see very little that has changed,” he says. “Where are all the new hospitals? I don’t see them. Bills are up, and prices are up. And the boats are still a real problem.

    There were, it seems, people who actually believed that shit from Dan Hannan.
    I was with a couple of mates the other week, both proud Leavers, who were bemoaning the impossibility of getting a plumber. I was very tempted, though I restrained myself - thanks to my iron willpower - from saying maybe all those Polish plumbers we voted to banish were perhaps a good thing?

    I was speaking to someone else in the boozer yesterday, a market trader, who was telling me how bad things are in Castleford indoor market, a stereotypical post-mining town in Red Wall Leaverstan. Yvette Cooper’s constituency. He took £60 yesterday. Not £60 profit. £60 all day. A trader a few stalls down took £7 all day.

    Now there are lots of reasons that will be hitting Cas indoor market’s financial health, but it is clear that towns across the UK are struggling, even in places we would consider traditionally prosperous. Things are very bad. Everything’s crumbling, nothing works. A friend was 172nd in the phone queue for a doctors appointment at 8.01am one day last week.

    Ok, anecdata. But people expected Brexit to sort all this. They wanted to believe the Leaver lies so they took the leap. They know now they were deceived. Revenge is coming. Hence the consistent polling. Covid and Ukraine as excuses don’t wash anymore.
    Would it console them to know that here in Remainia London things are not looking too bad?
  • Foxy said:

    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.

    This quote is pretty priceless:

    When he voted Conservative in 2019 – to “get Brexit done” – Holden had hoped things would get better, that the town’s good times would return. “But I see very little that has changed,” he says. “Where are all the new hospitals? I don’t see them. Bills are up, and prices are up. And the boats are still a real problem.

    There were, it seems, people who actually believed that shit from Dan Hannan.
    I was with a couple of mates the other week, both proud Leavers, who were bemoaning the impossibility of getting a plumber. I was very tempted, though I restrained myself - thanks to my iron willpower - from saying maybe all those Polish plumbers we voted to banish were perhaps a good thing?

    I was speaking to someone else in the boozer yesterday, a market trader, who was telling me how bad things are in Castleford indoor market, a stereotypical post-mining town in Red Wall Leaverstan. Yvette Cooper’s constituency. He took £60 yesterday. Not £60 profit. £60 all day. A trader a few stalls down took £7 all day.

    Now there are lots of reasons that will be hitting Cas indoor market’s financial health, but it is clear that towns across the UK are struggling, even in places we would consider traditionally prosperous. Things are very bad. Everything’s crumbling, nothing works. A friend was 172nd in the phone queue for a doctors appointment at 8.01am one day last week.

    Ok, anecdata. But people expected Brexit to sort all this. They wanted to believe the Leaver lies so they took the leap. They know now they were deceived. Revenge is coming. Hence the consistent polling. Covid and Ukraine as excuses don’t wash anymore.
    Would it console them to know that here in Remainia London things are not looking too bad?
    Perhaps not…
  • Foxy said:

    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.

    This quote is pretty priceless:

    When he voted Conservative in 2019 – to “get Brexit done” – Holden had hoped things would get better, that the town’s good times would return. “But I see very little that has changed,” he says. “Where are all the new hospitals? I don’t see them. Bills are up, and prices are up. And the boats are still a real problem.

    There were, it seems, people who actually believed that shit from Dan Hannan.
    I was with a couple of mates the other week, both proud Leavers, who were bemoaning the impossibility of getting a plumber. I was very tempted, though I restrained myself - thanks to my iron willpower - from saying maybe all those Polish plumbers we voted to banish were perhaps a good thing?

    I was speaking to someone else in the boozer yesterday, a market trader, who was telling me how bad things are in Castleford indoor market, a stereotypical post-mining town in Red Wall Leaverstan. Yvette Cooper’s constituency. He took £60 yesterday. Not £60 profit. £60 all day. A trader a few stalls down took £7 all day.

    Now there are lots of reasons that will be hitting Cas indoor market’s financial health, but it is clear that towns across the UK are struggling, even in places we would consider traditionally prosperous. Things are very bad. Everything’s crumbling, nothing works. A friend was 172nd in the phone queue for a doctors appointment at 8.01am one day last week.

    Ok, anecdata. But people expected Brexit to sort all this. They wanted to believe the Leaver lies so they took the leap. They know now they were deceived. Revenge is coming. Hence the consistent polling. Covid and Ukraine as excuses don’t wash anymore.
    The part that demonstrates just how brutal the election will be for the Tories is “nothing works”. Not just because nothing works and the visible decay is unavoidable, but because the Tories keep insisting the opposite. We’ve “turned a corner” (from nothing working?) and besides it was worse in the past.

    Remember the “eeee wasn’t Tony Blair shit” gasm on here a few weeks ago? Not saying the people posting that are Tory voters, but certainly they are fellow travellers.

    Things have been getting progressively shabbier for a number of years. Austerity massively accelerated the decline. People voted Brexit being promised that all their problems would go away. Then they voted Boris! to Get Brexit Done and finally receive the Good Times promised.

    They feel lied to on a massive scale. Because they were lied to. By a party and political class who decided that they could weaponise stupidity and ignorance of how things work for votes. You can’t do that then fail to deliver.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,498

    Foxy said:

    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.

    This quote is pretty priceless:

    When he voted Conservative in 2019 – to “get Brexit done” – Holden had hoped things would get better, that the town’s good times would return. “But I see very little that has changed,” he says. “Where are all the new hospitals? I don’t see them. Bills are up, and prices are up. And the boats are still a real problem.

    There were, it seems, people who actually believed that shit from Dan Hannan.
    I was with a couple of mates the other week, both proud Leavers, who were bemoaning the impossibility of getting a plumber. I was very tempted, though I restrained myself - thanks to my iron willpower - from saying maybe all those Polish plumbers we voted to banish were perhaps a good thing?

    I was speaking to someone else in the boozer yesterday, a market trader, who was telling me how bad things are in Castleford indoor market, a stereotypical post-mining town in Red Wall Leaverstan. Yvette Cooper’s constituency. He took £60 yesterday. Not £60 profit. £60 all day. A trader a few stalls down took £7 all day.

    Now there are lots of reasons that will be hitting Cas indoor market’s financial health, but it is clear that towns across the UK are struggling, even in places we would consider traditionally prosperous. Things are very bad. Everything’s crumbling, nothing works. A friend was 172nd in the phone queue for a doctors appointment at 8.01am one day last week.

    Ok, anecdata. But people expected Brexit to sort all this. They wanted to believe the Leaver lies so they took the leap. They know now they were deceived. Revenge is coming. Hence the consistent polling. Covid and Ukraine as excuses don’t wash anymore.
    Yes. For many Brexit was really a vote for levelling up or a return to prosperity. Cummings knew that. The ERG, sadly, believed its own propaganda.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,381
    What a drop by Crawley. Arrgh.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,712

    Talk about a Brexit dividend. Let's hope. 🇮🇪

    That was going to be the headline

    ‘The first real Brexit dividend’

    But I didn’t want to be accused of trolling.
    Yeah would be unlike you.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,570
    Just Sir Keir doing Sir Keir things

    NEW: Keir Starmer has ditched his promise to abolish the House of Lords in a first term as he seeks to make the Labour manifesto "bombproof" of Tory attacks

    [@ObserverUK]


    https://x.com/politlcsuk/status/1753892770601652717?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,339

    Foxy said:

    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.

    This quote is pretty priceless:

    When he voted Conservative in 2019 – to “get Brexit done” – Holden had hoped things would get better, that the town’s good times would return. “But I see very little that has changed,” he says. “Where are all the new hospitals? I don’t see them. Bills are up, and prices are up. And the boats are still a real problem.

    There were, it seems, people who actually believed that shit from Dan Hannan.
    I was with a couple of mates the other week, both proud Leavers, who were bemoaning the impossibility of getting a plumber. I was very tempted, though I restrained myself - thanks to my iron willpower - from saying maybe all those Polish plumbers we voted to banish were perhaps a good thing?

    I was speaking to someone else in the boozer yesterday, a market trader, who was telling me how bad things are in Castleford indoor market, a stereotypical post-mining town in Red Wall Leaverstan. Yvette Cooper’s constituency. He took £60 yesterday. Not £60 profit. £60 all day. A trader a few stalls down took £7 all day.

    Now there are lots of reasons that will be hitting Cas indoor market’s financial health, but it is clear that towns across the UK are struggling, even in places we would consider traditionally prosperous. Things are very bad. Everything’s crumbling, nothing works. A friend was 172nd in the phone queue for a doctors appointment at 8.01am one day last week.

    Ok, anecdata. But people expected Brexit to sort all this. They wanted to believe the Leaver lies so they took the leap. They know now they were deceived. Revenge is coming. Hence the consistent polling. Covid and Ukraine as excuses don’t wash anymore.
    Yes. For many Brexit was really a vote for levelling up or a return to prosperity. Cummings knew that. The ERG, sadly, believed its own propaganda.
    Yup. What did many of these areas in the red wall have to lose. They were hardly prosperous prior to Brexit.

    If economic growth had been more evenly spread post the Brown Bust then it would have been different.

    Most telling comment for me during the debate was a town hall in Newcastle. A panellist cautioned a member of the audience that a brexit vote would damage growth to which he replied “what growth”.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 38,654

    Foxy said:

    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.

    This quote is pretty priceless:

    When he voted Conservative in 2019 – to “get Brexit done” – Holden had hoped things would get better, that the town’s good times would return. “But I see very little that has changed,” he says. “Where are all the new hospitals? I don’t see them. Bills are up, and prices are up. And the boats are still a real problem.

    There were, it seems, people who actually believed that shit from Dan Hannan.
    I was with a couple of mates the other week, both proud Leavers, who were bemoaning the impossibility of getting a plumber. I was very tempted, though I restrained myself - thanks to my iron willpower - from saying maybe all those Polish plumbers we voted to banish were perhaps a good thing?

    I was speaking to someone else in the boozer yesterday, a market trader, who was telling me how bad things are in Castleford indoor market, a stereotypical post-mining town in Red Wall Leaverstan. Yvette Cooper’s constituency. He took £60 yesterday. Not £60 profit. £60 all day. A trader a few stalls down took £7 all day.

    Now there are lots of reasons that will be hitting Cas indoor market’s financial health, but it is clear that towns across the UK are struggling, even in places we would consider traditionally prosperous. Things are very bad. Everything’s crumbling, nothing works. A friend was 172nd in the phone queue for a doctors appointment at 8.01am one day last week.

    Ok, anecdata. But people expected Brexit to sort all this. They wanted to believe the Leaver lies so they took the leap. They know now they were deceived. Revenge is coming. Hence the consistent polling. Covid and Ukraine as excuses don’t wash anymore.
    The part that demonstrates just how brutal the election will be for the Tories is “nothing works”. Not just because nothing works and the visible decay is unavoidable, but because the Tories keep insisting the opposite. We’ve “turned a corner” (from nothing working?) and besides it was worse in the past.

    Remember the “eeee wasn’t Tony Blair shit” gasm on here a few weeks ago? Not saying the people posting that are Tory voters, but certainly they are fellow travellers.

    Things have been getting progressively shabbier for a number of years. Austerity massively accelerated the decline. People voted Brexit being promised that all their problems would go away. Then they voted Boris! to Get Brexit Done and finally receive the Good Times promised.

    They feel lied to on a massive scale. Because they were lied to. By a party and political class who decided that they could weaponise stupidity and ignorance of how things work for votes. You can’t do that then fail to deliver.
    The fact that public conveniences (lack of) is climbing the agenda is another symptom (as is Dacorum council making money out of spying on people having a piddle in the country, but then pissing most of it on contractors).
  • Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.

    This quote is pretty priceless:

    When he voted Conservative in 2019 – to “get Brexit done” – Holden had hoped things would get better, that the town’s good times would return. “But I see very little that has changed,” he says. “Where are all the new hospitals? I don’t see them. Bills are up, and prices are up. And the boats are still a real problem.

    There were, it seems, people who actually believed that shit from Dan Hannan.
    I was with a couple of mates the other week, both proud Leavers, who were bemoaning the impossibility of getting a plumber. I was very tempted, though I restrained myself - thanks to my iron willpower - from saying maybe all those Polish plumbers we voted to banish were perhaps a good thing?

    I was speaking to someone else in the boozer yesterday, a market trader, who was telling me how bad things are in Castleford indoor market, a stereotypical post-mining town in Red Wall Leaverstan. Yvette Cooper’s constituency. He took £60 yesterday. Not £60 profit. £60 all day. A trader a few stalls down took £7 all day.

    Now there are lots of reasons that will be hitting Cas indoor market’s financial health, but it is clear that towns across the UK are struggling, even in places we would consider traditionally prosperous. Things are very bad. Everything’s crumbling, nothing works. A friend was 172nd in the phone queue for a doctors appointment at 8.01am one day last week.

    Ok, anecdata. But people expected Brexit to sort all this. They wanted to believe the Leaver lies so they took the leap. They know now they were deceived. Revenge is coming. Hence the consistent polling. Covid and Ukraine as excuses don’t wash anymore.
    Yes. For many Brexit was really a vote for levelling up or a return to prosperity. Cummings knew that. The ERG, sadly, believed its own propaganda.
    Yup. What did many of these areas in the red wall have to lose. They were hardly prosperous prior to Brexit.

    If economic growth had been more evenly spread post the Brown Bust then it would have been different.

    Most telling comment for me during the debate was a town hall in Newcastle. A panellist cautioned a member of the audience that a brexit vote would damage growth to which he replied “what growth”.

    They’d get it now…
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,529
    isam said:

    Just Sir Keir doing Sir Keir things

    NEW: Keir Starmer has ditched his promise to abolish the House of Lords in a first term as he seeks to make the Labour manifesto "bombproof" of Tory attacks

    [@ObserverUK]


    https://x.com/politlcsuk/status/1753892770601652717?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I must confess that I’m beginning to wonder what difference Labour actually make.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,381
    isam said:

    Just Sir Keir doing Sir Keir things

    NEW: Keir Starmer has ditched his promise to abolish the House of Lords in a first term as he seeks to make the Labour manifesto "bombproof" of Tory attacks

    [@ObserverUK]


    https://x.com/politlcsuk/status/1753892770601652717?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Is Parliament going to bother sitting for the first year? There doesn't seem anything for it to do.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 43,514
    edited February 4
    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.

    This quote is pretty priceless:

    When he voted Conservative in 2019 – to “get Brexit done” – Holden had hoped things would get better, that the town’s good times would return. “But I see very little that has changed,” he says. “Where are all the new hospitals? I don’t see them. Bills are up, and prices are up. And the boats are still a real problem.

    There were, it seems, people who actually believed that shit from Dan Hannan.
    I was with a couple of mates the other week, both proud Leavers, who were bemoaning the impossibility of getting a plumber. I was very tempted, though I restrained myself - thanks to my iron willpower - from saying maybe all those Polish plumbers we voted to banish were perhaps a good thing?

    I was speaking to someone else in the boozer yesterday, a market trader, who was telling me how bad things are in Castleford indoor market, a stereotypical post-mining town in Red Wall Leaverstan. Yvette Cooper’s constituency. He took £60 yesterday. Not £60 profit. £60 all day. A trader a few stalls down took £7 all day.

    Now there are lots of reasons that will be hitting Cas indoor market’s financial health, but it is clear that towns across the UK are struggling, even in places we would consider traditionally prosperous. Things are very bad. Everything’s crumbling, nothing works. A friend was 172nd in the phone queue for a doctors appointment at 8.01am one day last week.

    Ok, anecdata. But people expected Brexit to sort all this. They wanted to believe the Leaver lies so they took the leap. They know now they were deceived. Revenge is coming. Hence the consistent polling. Covid and Ukraine as excuses don’t wash anymore.
    Yes. For many Brexit was really a vote for levelling up or a return to prosperity. Cummings knew that. The ERG, sadly, believed its own propaganda.
    Yup. What did many of these areas in the red wall have to lose. They were hardly prosperous prior to Brexit.

    If economic growth had been more evenly spread post the Brown Bust then it would have been different.

    Most telling comment for me during the debate was a town hall in Newcastle. A panellist cautioned a member of the audience that a brexit vote would damage growth to which he replied “what growth”.

    Yes, but how do those areas feel now? Are they rolling in the Brexit benefits, or have their towns and services further declined?

    How they feel in 2024 is now much more relevant than in 2016, and it ain't looking good for Sunak.



  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 38,654
    isam said:

    Just Sir Keir doing Sir Keir things

    NEW: Keir Starmer has ditched his promise to abolish the House of Lords in a first term as he seeks to make the Labour manifesto "bombproof" of Tory attacks

    [@ObserverUK]


    https://x.com/politlcsuk/status/1753892770601652717?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Er, "SKS is crap because he promises things we like" is hardly a winning argument, mind.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 43,514

    isam said:

    Just Sir Keir doing Sir Keir things

    NEW: Keir Starmer has ditched his promise to abolish the House of Lords in a first term as he seeks to make the Labour manifesto "bombproof" of Tory attacks

    [@ObserverUK]


    https://x.com/politlcsuk/status/1753892770601652717?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I must confess that I’m beginning to wonder what difference Labour actually make.
    Or Lib Dems, whose manifesto is equally thin of real change.

    And for that matter REFUK whose manifesto is basically the Tory one written in BLOCK CAPITALS!
  • isamisam Posts: 40,570
    edited February 4
    Carnyx said:

    isam said:

    Just Sir Keir doing Sir Keir things

    NEW: Keir Starmer has ditched his promise to abolish the House of Lords in a first term as he seeks to make the Labour manifesto "bombproof" of Tory attacks

    [@ObserverUK]


    https://x.com/politlcsuk/status/1753892770601652717?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Er, "SKS is crap because he promises things we like" is hardly a winning argument, mind.
    He promises them, then says he’s not going to do them

    https://x.com/timmyvoe240886/status/1703030484995842357?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    https://x.com/timmyvoe240886/status/1705632053734014989?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,880
    DavidL said:

    isam said:

    Just Sir Keir doing Sir Keir things

    NEW: Keir Starmer has ditched his promise to abolish the House of Lords in a first term as he seeks to make the Labour manifesto "bombproof" of Tory attacks

    [@ObserverUK]


    https://x.com/politlcsuk/status/1753892770601652717?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Is Parliament going to bother sitting for the first year? There doesn't seem anything for it to do.
    If Labour put out a manifesto saying only 'we're not Corbyn and not Tory' that would be enough frankly - and SKS knows it.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 38,654
    isam said:

    Carnyx said:

    isam said:

    Just Sir Keir doing Sir Keir things

    NEW: Keir Starmer has ditched his promise to abolish the House of Lords in a first term as he seeks to make the Labour manifesto "bombproof" of Tory attacks

    [@ObserverUK]


    https://x.com/politlcsuk/status/1753892770601652717?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Er, "SKS is crap because he promises things we like" is hardly a winning argument, mind.
    He promises them, then says he’s not going to do them

    https://x.com/timmyvoe240886/status/1703030484995842357?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    No, you have it the wrong way round. He promised something you *don't* like, then changes his mind to match yourt preferred policies when you complain. And you think that's bad? What does that imply about your preferred policies?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,840

    Foxy said:

    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.

    This quote is pretty priceless:

    When he voted Conservative in 2019 – to “get Brexit done” – Holden had hoped things would get better, that the town’s good times would return. “But I see very little that has changed,” he says. “Where are all the new hospitals? I don’t see them. Bills are up, and prices are up. And the boats are still a real problem.

    There were, it seems, people who actually believed that shit from Dan Hannan.
    I was with a couple of mates the other week, both proud Leavers, who were bemoaning the impossibility of getting a plumber. I was very tempted, though I restrained myself - thanks to my iron willpower - from saying maybe all those Polish plumbers we voted to banish were perhaps a good thing?

    I was speaking to someone else in the boozer yesterday, a market trader, who was telling me how bad things are in Castleford indoor market, a stereotypical post-mining town in Red Wall Leaverstan. Yvette Cooper’s constituency. He took £60 yesterday. Not £60 profit. £60 all day. A trader a few stalls down took £7 all day.

    Now there are lots of reasons that will be hitting Cas indoor market’s financial health, but it is clear that towns across the UK are struggling, even in places we would consider traditionally prosperous. Things are very bad. Everything’s crumbling, nothing works. A friend was 172nd in the phone queue for a doctors appointment at 8.01am one day last week.

    Ok, anecdata. But people expected Brexit to sort all this. They wanted to believe the Leaver lies so they took the leap. They know now they were deceived. Revenge is coming. Hence the consistent polling. Covid and Ukraine as excuses don’t wash anymore.
    Deceived about what ?

    Control over Eastern European immigration ?

    Its been done.

    Extra spending on the NHS.

    Its been done.

    Taking back control.

    Its been done.

    Now if people aren't happy about the results then they can complain and vote differently.

    But the next government will face exactly the same problems but with even more challenges and less money to spend.

    They're are no magic wands for any government to wave.

    If people want higher prosperity and better services the process is the same as it has always been - better skills and higher prosperity.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 43,514
    edited February 4

    DavidL said:

    isam said:

    Just Sir Keir doing Sir Keir things

    NEW: Keir Starmer has ditched his promise to abolish the House of Lords in a first term as he seeks to make the Labour manifesto "bombproof" of Tory attacks

    [@ObserverUK]


    https://x.com/politlcsuk/status/1753892770601652717?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Is Parliament going to bother sitting for the first year? There doesn't seem anything for it to do.
    If Labour put out a manifesto saying only 'we're not Corbyn and not Tory' that would be enough frankly - and SKS knows it.
    Yep. That's what the polls are saying.

    Perhaps never has a government in waiting had with such low expectations and such a large lead.

    It leaves a lot of room to "surprise on the upside".

  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,591
    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.

    This quote is pretty priceless:

    When he voted Conservative in 2019 – to “get Brexit done” – Holden had hoped things would get better, that the town’s good times would return. “But I see very little that has changed,” he says. “Where are all the new hospitals? I don’t see them. Bills are up, and prices are up. And the boats are still a real problem.

    There were, it seems, people who actually believed that shit from Dan Hannan.
    I was with a couple of mates the other week, both proud Leavers, who were bemoaning the impossibility of getting a plumber. I was very tempted, though I restrained myself - thanks to my iron willpower - from saying maybe all those Polish plumbers we voted to banish were perhaps a good thing?

    I was speaking to someone else in the boozer yesterday, a market trader, who was telling me how bad things are in Castleford indoor market, a stereotypical post-mining town in Red Wall Leaverstan. Yvette Cooper’s constituency. He took £60 yesterday. Not £60 profit. £60 all day. A trader a few stalls down took £7 all day.

    Now there are lots of reasons that will be hitting Cas indoor market’s financial health, but it is clear that towns across the UK are struggling, even in places we would consider traditionally prosperous. Things are very bad. Everything’s crumbling, nothing works. A friend was 172nd in the phone queue for a doctors appointment at 8.01am one day last week.

    Ok, anecdata. But people expected Brexit to sort all this. They wanted to believe the Leaver lies so they took the leap. They know now they were deceived. Revenge is coming. Hence the consistent polling. Covid and Ukraine as excuses don’t wash anymore.
    The part that demonstrates just how brutal the election will be for the Tories is “nothing works”. Not just because nothing works and the visible decay is unavoidable, but because the Tories keep insisting the opposite. We’ve “turned a corner” (from nothing working?) and besides it was worse in the past.

    Remember the “eeee wasn’t Tony Blair shit” gasm on here a few weeks ago? Not saying the people posting that are Tory voters, but certainly they are fellow travellers.

    Things have been getting progressively shabbier for a number of years. Austerity massively accelerated the decline. People voted Brexit being promised that all their problems would go away. Then they voted Boris! to Get Brexit Done and finally receive the Good Times promised.

    They feel lied to on a massive scale. Because they were lied to. By a party and political class who decided that they could weaponise stupidity and ignorance of how things work for votes. You can’t do that then fail to deliver.
    The fact that public conveniences (lack of) is climbing the agenda is another symptom (as is Dacorum council making money out of spying on people having a piddle in the country, but then pissing most of it on contractors).
    Free public toilet, recycling bins and electric BBQs, all in pristine condition, widespread and frequently available in Australia. All public developments accompanied by trees, benches and solar panels.
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,339
    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.

    This quote is pretty priceless:

    When he voted Conservative in 2019 – to “get Brexit done” – Holden had hoped things would get better, that the town’s good times would return. “But I see very little that has changed,” he says. “Where are all the new hospitals? I don’t see them. Bills are up, and prices are up. And the boats are still a real problem.

    There were, it seems, people who actually believed that shit from Dan Hannan.
    I was with a couple of mates the other week, both proud Leavers, who were bemoaning the impossibility of getting a plumber. I was very tempted, though I restrained myself - thanks to my iron willpower - from saying maybe all those Polish plumbers we voted to banish were perhaps a good thing?

    I was speaking to someone else in the boozer yesterday, a market trader, who was telling me how bad things are in Castleford indoor market, a stereotypical post-mining town in Red Wall Leaverstan. Yvette Cooper’s constituency. He took £60 yesterday. Not £60 profit. £60 all day. A trader a few stalls down took £7 all day.

    Now there are lots of reasons that will be hitting Cas indoor market’s financial health, but it is clear that towns across the UK are struggling, even in places we would consider traditionally prosperous. Things are very bad. Everything’s crumbling, nothing works. A friend was 172nd in the phone queue for a doctors appointment at 8.01am one day last week.

    Ok, anecdata. But people expected Brexit to sort all this. They wanted to believe the Leaver lies so they took the leap. They know now they were deceived. Revenge is coming. Hence the consistent polling. Covid and Ukraine as excuses don’t wash anymore.
    Yes. For many Brexit was really a vote for levelling up or a return to prosperity. Cummings knew that. The ERG, sadly, believed its own propaganda.
    Yup. What did many of these areas in the red wall have to lose. They were hardly prosperous prior to Brexit.

    If economic growth had been more evenly spread post the Brown Bust then it would have been different.

    Most telling comment for me during the debate was a town hall in Newcastle. A panellist cautioned a member of the audience that a brexit vote would damage growth to which he replied “what growth”.

    Yes, but how do those areas feel now? Are they rolling in the Brexit benefits, or have their towns and services further declined?

    How they feel in 2024 is now much more relevant than in 2016, and it ain't looking good for Sunak.



    Well, as we’re doing anecdata, my experience is people are just getting on with their lives. I only ever see or hear mention of Brexit online. Life feels no different really. In the manufacturing business I work in it’s little different. Neither the dire remain forecasts nor the optimistic leave forecasts have come to pass. Yet.

    Quite frankly if we rejoined tomorrow how is that going to make a major benefit to the lives of people in these towns. People keep talking about rejoining as being a panacea but if it was so great and prosperity was there for all we would never have left in the first place. I voted remain, reluctantly, but I wouldn’t bother voting if there was another referendum
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 38,654
    Eabhal said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.

    This quote is pretty priceless:

    When he voted Conservative in 2019 – to “get Brexit done” – Holden had hoped things would get better, that the town’s good times would return. “But I see very little that has changed,” he says. “Where are all the new hospitals? I don’t see them. Bills are up, and prices are up. And the boats are still a real problem.

    There were, it seems, people who actually believed that shit from Dan Hannan.
    I was with a couple of mates the other week, both proud Leavers, who were bemoaning the impossibility of getting a plumber. I was very tempted, though I restrained myself - thanks to my iron willpower - from saying maybe all those Polish plumbers we voted to banish were perhaps a good thing?

    I was speaking to someone else in the boozer yesterday, a market trader, who was telling me how bad things are in Castleford indoor market, a stereotypical post-mining town in Red Wall Leaverstan. Yvette Cooper’s constituency. He took £60 yesterday. Not £60 profit. £60 all day. A trader a few stalls down took £7 all day.

    Now there are lots of reasons that will be hitting Cas indoor market’s financial health, but it is clear that towns across the UK are struggling, even in places we would consider traditionally prosperous. Things are very bad. Everything’s crumbling, nothing works. A friend was 172nd in the phone queue for a doctors appointment at 8.01am one day last week.

    Ok, anecdata. But people expected Brexit to sort all this. They wanted to believe the Leaver lies so they took the leap. They know now they were deceived. Revenge is coming. Hence the consistent polling. Covid and Ukraine as excuses don’t wash anymore.
    The part that demonstrates just how brutal the election will be for the Tories is “nothing works”. Not just because nothing works and the visible decay is unavoidable, but because the Tories keep insisting the opposite. We’ve “turned a corner” (from nothing working?) and besides it was worse in the past.

    Remember the “eeee wasn’t Tony Blair shit” gasm on here a few weeks ago? Not saying the people posting that are Tory voters, but certainly they are fellow travellers.

    Things have been getting progressively shabbier for a number of years. Austerity massively accelerated the decline. People voted Brexit being promised that all their problems would go away. Then they voted Boris! to Get Brexit Done and finally receive the Good Times promised.

    They feel lied to on a massive scale. Because they were lied to. By a party and political class who decided that they could weaponise stupidity and ignorance of how things work for votes. You can’t do that then fail to deliver.
    The fact that public conveniences (lack of) is climbing the agenda is another symptom (as is Dacorum council making money out of spying on people having a piddle in the country, but then pissing most of it on contractors).
    Free public toilet, recycling bins and electric BBQs, all in pristine condition, widespread and frequently available in Australia. All public developments accompanied by trees, benches and solar panels.
    Quite. Leon and I don't always agree but he's absolutely right in being amazed PBers aren't watching this more closely. It's a very immediate symptom of local government collapse which knees everyone in the crotch. Go to the loo? You have to spend £16 in Shitecoffee for your family of five. And so on.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,840

    Foxy said:

    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.

    This quote is pretty priceless:

    When he voted Conservative in 2019 – to “get Brexit done” – Holden had hoped things would get better, that the town’s good times would return. “But I see very little that has changed,” he says. “Where are all the new hospitals? I don’t see them. Bills are up, and prices are up. And the boats are still a real problem.

    There were, it seems, people who actually believed that shit from Dan Hannan.
    I was with a couple of mates the other week, both proud Leavers, who were bemoaning the impossibility of getting a plumber. I was very tempted, though I restrained myself - thanks to my iron willpower - from saying maybe all those Polish plumbers we voted to banish were perhaps a good thing?

    I was speaking to someone else in the boozer yesterday, a market trader, who was telling me how bad things are in Castleford indoor market, a stereotypical post-mining town in Red Wall Leaverstan. Yvette Cooper’s constituency. He took £60 yesterday. Not £60 profit. £60 all day. A trader a few stalls down took £7 all day.

    Now there are lots of reasons that will be hitting Cas indoor market’s financial health, but it is clear that towns across the UK are struggling, even in places we would consider traditionally prosperous. Things are very bad. Everything’s crumbling, nothing works. A friend was 172nd in the phone queue for a doctors appointment at 8.01am one day last week.

    Ok, anecdata. But people expected Brexit to sort all this. They wanted to believe the Leaver lies so they took the leap. They know now they were deceived. Revenge is coming. Hence the consistent polling. Covid and Ukraine as excuses don’t wash anymore.
    Would it console them to know that here in Remainia London things are not looking too bad?
    A run down Oxford Street, unaffordable housing and increasing inequality.

    Hardly streets paved with gold is it.

    At least in Castleford the housing is affordable and there's full employment.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 43,514
    edited February 4

    Foxy said:

    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.

    This quote is pretty priceless:

    When he voted Conservative in 2019 – to “get Brexit done” – Holden had hoped things would get better, that the town’s good times would return. “But I see very little that has changed,” he says. “Where are all the new hospitals? I don’t see them. Bills are up, and prices are up. And the boats are still a real problem.

    There were, it seems, people who actually believed that shit from Dan Hannan.
    I was with a couple of mates the other week, both proud Leavers, who were bemoaning the impossibility of getting a plumber. I was very tempted, though I restrained myself - thanks to my iron willpower - from saying maybe all those Polish plumbers we voted to banish were perhaps a good thing?

    I was speaking to someone else in the boozer yesterday, a market trader, who was telling me how bad things are in Castleford indoor market, a stereotypical post-mining town in Red Wall Leaverstan. Yvette Cooper’s constituency. He took £60 yesterday. Not £60 profit. £60 all day. A trader a few stalls down took £7 all day.

    Now there are lots of reasons that will be hitting Cas indoor market’s financial health, but it is clear that towns across the UK are struggling, even in places we would consider traditionally prosperous. Things are very bad. Everything’s crumbling, nothing works. A friend was 172nd in the phone queue for a doctors appointment at 8.01am one day last week.

    Ok, anecdata. But people expected Brexit to sort all this. They wanted to believe the Leaver lies so they took the leap. They know now they were deceived. Revenge is coming. Hence the consistent polling. Covid and Ukraine as excuses don’t wash anymore.
    If people want higher prosperity and better services the process is the same as it has always been - better skills and higher prosperity.
    Indeed, and the self inflicted wound of Brexit was not necessary for that. It has been a monumental distraction for a decade that has resulted in further decline.

    It's why only 13% of Britons consider Brexit a success.

    https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/7-10-britons-think-brexit-has-had-negative-impact-uk-economy
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 4,384
    Ironically the so called bombproof Labour manifesto is going to explode when they put out their planning proposals .

    Starmer is picking the wrong fight . Labour should simply have said to the Tories we aren’t going to be lectured to about anything given the Truss debacle and put out some policies that will actually change lives .
  • Foxy said:

    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.

    This quote is pretty priceless:

    When he voted Conservative in 2019 – to “get Brexit done” – Holden had hoped things would get better, that the town’s good times would return. “But I see very little that has changed,” he says. “Where are all the new hospitals? I don’t see them. Bills are up, and prices are up. And the boats are still a real problem.

    There were, it seems, people who actually believed that shit from Dan Hannan.
    I was with a couple of mates the other week, both proud Leavers, who were bemoaning the impossibility of getting a plumber. I was very tempted, though I restrained myself - thanks to my iron willpower - from saying maybe all those Polish plumbers we voted to banish were perhaps a good thing?

    I was speaking to someone else in the boozer yesterday, a market trader, who was telling me how bad things are in Castleford indoor market, a stereotypical post-mining town in Red Wall Leaverstan. Yvette Cooper’s constituency. He took £60 yesterday. Not £60 profit. £60 all day. A trader a few stalls down took £7 all day.

    Now there are lots of reasons that will be hitting Cas indoor market’s financial health, but it is clear that towns across the UK are struggling, even in places we would consider traditionally prosperous. Things are very bad. Everything’s crumbling, nothing works. A friend was 172nd in the phone queue for a doctors appointment at 8.01am one day last week.

    Ok, anecdata. But people expected Brexit to sort all this. They wanted to believe the Leaver lies so they took the leap. They know now they were deceived. Revenge is coming. Hence the consistent polling. Covid and Ukraine as excuses don’t wash anymore.
    Would it console them to know that here in Remainia London things are not looking too bad?
    Perhaps not…
    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.

    This quote is pretty priceless:

    When he voted Conservative in 2019 – to “get Brexit done” – Holden had hoped things would get better, that the town’s good times would return. “But I see very little that has changed,” he says. “Where are all the new hospitals? I don’t see them. Bills are up, and prices are up. And the boats are still a real problem.

    There were, it seems, people who actually believed that shit from Dan Hannan.
    I was with a couple of mates the other week, both proud Leavers, who were bemoaning the impossibility of getting a plumber. I was very tempted, though I restrained myself - thanks to my iron willpower - from saying maybe all those Polish plumbers we voted to banish were perhaps a good thing?

    I was speaking to someone else in the boozer yesterday, a market trader, who was telling me how bad things are in Castleford indoor market, a stereotypical post-mining town in Red Wall Leaverstan. Yvette Cooper’s constituency. He took £60 yesterday. Not £60 profit. £60 all day. A trader a few stalls down took £7 all day.

    Now there are lots of reasons that will be hitting Cas indoor market’s financial health, but it is clear that towns across the UK are struggling, even in places we would consider traditionally prosperous. Things are very bad. Everything’s crumbling, nothing works. A friend was 172nd in the phone queue for a doctors appointment at 8.01am one day last week.

    Ok, anecdata. But people expected Brexit to sort all this. They wanted to believe the Leaver lies so they took the leap. They know now they were deceived. Revenge is coming. Hence the consistent polling. Covid and Ukraine as excuses don’t wash anymore.
    Yes. For many Brexit was really a vote for levelling up or a return to prosperity. Cummings knew that. The ERG, sadly, believed its own propaganda.
    Yup. What did many of these areas in the red wall have to lose. They were hardly prosperous prior to Brexit.

    If economic growth had been more evenly spread post the Brown Bust then it would have been different.

    Most telling comment for me during the debate was a town hall in Newcastle. A panellist cautioned a member of the audience that a brexit vote would damage growth to which he replied “what growth”.

    Anyone who thought the Tories would deliver post-Brexit prosperity to the north, especially if they lived through the 80s, needs their head examined.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,308
    ydoethur said:

    Thanks to those who replied.

    My assumption would be that the South would emotionally desire reunification - the question might be whether they would be willing to pay the largeish bill that would come with it. At the moment, Northern Ireland is something of a dead loss economically and it has rather more generous public services than in the Republic.

    Of course, Sinn Féin's manifesto for Ireland includes an expansion in the south - e.g. an NHS style universal FPU healthcare system. So that may cease to matter as much if they are in power in Stormont and Dublin.

    And Sinn Fein have got the key economic portfolios in the new executive, so if it lasts for any length of time they have the opportunity to try and sort out the North's economy. Whether they have the imagination and ability to do so may be a rather different question.

    Polling is 66% in favour of reunification in the Republic, the other third split between don't know and no. Insofar as money will be an issue in the poll it will be an issue for Northern Ireland voters rather than those in the Republic, because the assumption will be that Dublin won't spend as freely as London.

    I would expect it to take a while before we get a border poll, though it's possible the dynamic of a Sinn Fein Taoiseach and First Minister at the same time might accelerate things.

    Also, if Sinn Fein win the position of First Minister again at the next Assembly election, how does Unionism react to the prospect of never having a Unionist First Minister ever again?
  • isamisam Posts: 40,570
    Carnyx said:

    isam said:

    Carnyx said:

    isam said:

    Just Sir Keir doing Sir Keir things

    NEW: Keir Starmer has ditched his promise to abolish the House of Lords in a first term as he seeks to make the Labour manifesto "bombproof" of Tory attacks

    [@ObserverUK]


    https://x.com/politlcsuk/status/1753892770601652717?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Er, "SKS is crap because he promises things we like" is hardly a winning argument, mind.
    He promises them, then says he’s not going to do them

    https://x.com/timmyvoe240886/status/1703030484995842357?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    No, you have it the wrong way round. He promised something you *don't* like, then changes his mind to match yourt preferred policies when you complain. And you think that's bad? What does that imply about your preferred policies?
    Eh?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 38,654
    isam said:

    Carnyx said:

    isam said:

    Carnyx said:

    isam said:

    Just Sir Keir doing Sir Keir things

    NEW: Keir Starmer has ditched his promise to abolish the House of Lords in a first term as he seeks to make the Labour manifesto "bombproof" of Tory attacks

    [@ObserverUK]


    https://x.com/politlcsuk/status/1753892770601652717?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Er, "SKS is crap because he promises things we like" is hardly a winning argument, mind.
    He promises them, then says he’s not going to do them

    https://x.com/timmyvoe240886/status/1703030484995842357?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    No, you have it the wrong way round. He promised something you *don't* like, then changes his mind to match yourt preferred policies when you complain. And you think that's bad? What does that imply about your preferred policies?
    Eh?
    Saying "SKS adopts our preferred policies and we think that's bad" is not a great advertisement for one's *own* policies. OK,. SKS changes his mind - but you don't come over as very convinced by your own policies. That's all. It's always seemed a very odd line of argument by the Tories.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,356

    Foxy said:

    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.

    This quote is pretty priceless:

    When he voted Conservative in 2019 – to “get Brexit done” – Holden had hoped things would get better, that the town’s good times would return. “But I see very little that has changed,” he says. “Where are all the new hospitals? I don’t see them. Bills are up, and prices are up. And the boats are still a real problem.

    There were, it seems, people who actually believed that shit from Dan Hannan.
    I was with a couple of mates the other week, both proud Leavers, who were bemoaning the impossibility of getting a plumber. I was very tempted, though I restrained myself - thanks to my iron willpower - from saying maybe all those Polish plumbers we voted to banish were perhaps a good thing?

    I was speaking to someone else in the boozer yesterday, a market trader, who was telling me how bad things are in Castleford indoor market, a stereotypical post-mining town in Red Wall Leaverstan. Yvette Cooper’s constituency. He took £60 yesterday. Not £60 profit. £60 all day. A trader a few stalls down took £7 all day.

    Now there are lots of reasons that will be hitting Cas indoor market’s financial health, but it is clear that towns across the UK are struggling, even in places we would consider traditionally prosperous. Things are very bad. Everything’s crumbling, nothing works. A friend was 172nd in the phone queue for a doctors appointment at 8.01am one day last week.

    Ok, anecdata. But people expected Brexit to sort all this. They wanted to believe the Leaver lies so they took the leap. They know now they were deceived. Revenge is coming. Hence the consistent polling. Covid and Ukraine as excuses don’t wash anymore.
    Deceived about what ?

    Control over Eastern European immigration ?

    Its been done.

    Extra spending on the NHS.

    Its been done.

    Taking back control.

    Its been done.

    Now if people aren't happy about the results then they can complain and vote differently.

    But the next government will face exactly the same problems but with even more challenges and less money to spend.

    They're are no magic wands for any government to wave.

    If people want higher prosperity and better services the process is the same as it has always been - better skills and higher prosperity.
    On your first point, I rather suspect that most of those who voted for Brexit voted for control over immigration generally, rather than specifically control over Eastern European immigration.
    And that's not been done.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 43,514

    Foxy said:

    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.

    This quote is pretty priceless:

    When he voted Conservative in 2019 – to “get Brexit done” – Holden had hoped things would get better, that the town’s good times would return. “But I see very little that has changed,” he says. “Where are all the new hospitals? I don’t see them. Bills are up, and prices are up. And the boats are still a real problem.

    There were, it seems, people who actually believed that shit from Dan Hannan.
    I was with a couple of mates the other week, both proud Leavers, who were bemoaning the impossibility of getting a plumber. I was very tempted, though I restrained myself - thanks to my iron willpower - from saying maybe all those Polish plumbers we voted to banish were perhaps a good thing?

    I was speaking to someone else in the boozer yesterday, a market trader, who was telling me how bad things are in Castleford indoor market, a stereotypical post-mining town in Red Wall Leaverstan. Yvette Cooper’s constituency. He took £60 yesterday. Not £60 profit. £60 all day. A trader a few stalls down took £7 all day.

    Now there are lots of reasons that will be hitting Cas indoor market’s financial health, but it is clear that towns across the UK are struggling, even in places we would consider traditionally prosperous. Things are very bad. Everything’s crumbling, nothing works. A friend was 172nd in the phone queue for a doctors appointment at 8.01am one day last week.

    Ok, anecdata. But people expected Brexit to sort all this. They wanted to believe the Leaver lies so they took the leap. They know now they were deceived. Revenge is coming. Hence the consistent polling. Covid and Ukraine as excuses don’t wash anymore.
    Would it console them to know that here in Remainia London things are not looking too bad?
    A run down Oxford Street, unaffordable housing and increasing inequality.

    Hardly streets paved with gold is it.

    At least in Castleford the housing is affordable and there's full employment.
    I suspect that canvassing for the Tories in places like Castleford or Wellingborough with the slogan "You've never had it so good" would not see the voters flocking back.
  • Foxy said:

    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.

    This quote is pretty priceless:

    When he voted Conservative in 2019 – to “get Brexit done” – Holden had hoped things would get better, that the town’s good times would return. “But I see very little that has changed,” he says. “Where are all the new hospitals? I don’t see them. Bills are up, and prices are up. And the boats are still a real problem.

    There were, it seems, people who actually believed that shit from Dan Hannan.
    I was with a couple of mates the other week, both proud Leavers, who were bemoaning the impossibility of getting a plumber. I was very tempted, though I restrained myself - thanks to my iron willpower - from saying maybe all those Polish plumbers we voted to banish were perhaps a good thing?

    I was speaking to someone else in the boozer yesterday, a market trader, who was telling me how bad things are in Castleford indoor market, a stereotypical post-mining town in Red Wall Leaverstan. Yvette Cooper’s constituency. He took £60 yesterday. Not £60 profit. £60 all day. A trader a few stalls down took £7 all day.

    Now there are lots of reasons that will be hitting Cas indoor market’s financial health, but it is clear that towns across the UK are struggling, even in places we would consider traditionally prosperous. Things are very bad. Everything’s crumbling, nothing works. A friend was 172nd in the phone queue for a doctors appointment at 8.01am one day last week.

    Ok, anecdata. But people expected Brexit to sort all this. They wanted to believe the Leaver lies so they took the leap. They know now they were deceived. Revenge is coming. Hence the consistent polling. Covid and Ukraine as excuses don’t wash anymore.
    Deceived about what ?

    Control over Eastern European immigration ?

    Its been done.

    Extra spending on the NHS.

    Its been done.

    Taking back control.

    Its been done.

    Now if people aren't happy about the results then they can complain and vote differently.

    But the next government will face exactly the same problems but with even more challenges and less money to spend.

    They're are no magic wands for any government to wave.

    If people want higher prosperity and better services the process is the same as it has always been - better skills and higher prosperity.
    The lies that those things you’ve said, when enacted, would somehow improve their lives. The real-world ramifications is that those things clearly haven’t.

    Still, affluent elderly right-wingers are happy, so that’s all good. Sod the rest of the country, eh?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,308
    Foxy said:

    This is a remarkeable turnaround in the last decade and a bit:

    "She warned that Britain’s previously thriving pharmaceutical sector was now in a trade deficit because we have to import so much more medicine than before – the latest 2022 figures show a $5bn deficit globally, compared with a surplus of $9.7bn in 2010."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/04/brexit-trade-perks-firms-business-department-leaving-eu-companies

    What happened? I had thought that there was a bright future for this sector because of all the life science startups Britain also had. Where did it go wrong?
  • isamisam Posts: 40,570
    Carnyx said:

    isam said:

    Carnyx said:

    isam said:

    Carnyx said:

    isam said:

    Just Sir Keir doing Sir Keir things

    NEW: Keir Starmer has ditched his promise to abolish the House of Lords in a first term as he seeks to make the Labour manifesto "bombproof" of Tory attacks

    [@ObserverUK]


    https://x.com/politlcsuk/status/1753892770601652717?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Er, "SKS is crap because he promises things we like" is hardly a winning argument, mind.
    He promises them, then says he’s not going to do them

    https://x.com/timmyvoe240886/status/1703030484995842357?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    No, you have it the wrong way round. He promised something you *don't* like, then changes his mind to match yourt preferred policies when you complain. And you think that's bad? What does that imply about your preferred policies?
    Eh?
    Saying "SKS adopts our preferred policies and we think that's bad" is not a great advertisement for one's *own* policies. OK,. SKS changes his mind - but you don't come over as very convinced by your own policies. That's all. It's always seemed a very odd line of argument by the Tories.
    What on earth are you talking about?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 43,514
    Carnyx said:

    isam said:

    Carnyx said:

    isam said:

    Carnyx said:

    isam said:

    Just Sir Keir doing Sir Keir things

    NEW: Keir Starmer has ditched his promise to abolish the House of Lords in a first term as he seeks to make the Labour manifesto "bombproof" of Tory attacks

    [@ObserverUK]


    https://x.com/politlcsuk/status/1753892770601652717?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Er, "SKS is crap because he promises things we like" is hardly a winning argument, mind.
    He promises them, then says he’s not going to do them

    https://x.com/timmyvoe240886/status/1703030484995842357?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    No, you have it the wrong way round. He promised something you *don't* like, then changes his mind to match yourt preferred policies when you complain. And you think that's bad? What does that imply about your preferred policies?
    Eh?
    Saying "SKS adopts our preferred policies and we think that's bad" is not a great advertisement for one's *own* policies. OK,. SKS changes his mind - but you don't come over as very convinced by your own policies. That's all. It's always seemed a very odd line of argument by the Tories.
    I don't think @isam is a Tory. He supports Brexit and Johnson with an ardour that can match Mad Nad, but doesn't seem to like them much otherwise.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 60,479
    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    ydoethur said:

    Thanks to those who replied.

    My assumption would be that the South would emotionally desire reunification - the question might be whether they would be willing to pay the largeish bill that would come with it.

    The USA (if it still exists) will chuck a few Euros in the pot. As will the EU (if it still exists). It's a great emotional prize for both and they will facilitate by any means necessary.

    I think fans of the ongoing occupation of the 6C are making the mistakes Remain did with utilitarian and instrumental arguments.

    Feels > Reals.
    "occupation"

    lol
    Feels > Reals.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,840

    Foxy said:

    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.

    This quote is pretty priceless:

    When he voted Conservative in 2019 – to “get Brexit done” – Holden had hoped things would get better, that the town’s good times would return. “But I see very little that has changed,” he says. “Where are all the new hospitals? I don’t see them. Bills are up, and prices are up. And the boats are still a real problem.

    There were, it seems, people who actually believed that shit from Dan Hannan.
    I was with a couple of mates the other week, both proud Leavers, who were bemoaning the impossibility of getting a plumber. I was very tempted, though I restrained myself - thanks to my iron willpower - from saying maybe all those Polish plumbers we voted to banish were perhaps a good thing?

    I was speaking to someone else in the boozer yesterday, a market trader, who was telling me how bad things are in Castleford indoor market, a stereotypical post-mining town in Red Wall Leaverstan. Yvette Cooper’s constituency. He took £60 yesterday. Not £60 profit. £60 all day. A trader a few stalls down took £7 all day.

    Now there are lots of reasons that will be hitting Cas indoor market’s financial health, but it is clear that towns across the UK are struggling, even in places we would consider traditionally prosperous. Things are very bad. Everything’s crumbling, nothing works. A friend was 172nd in the phone queue for a doctors appointment at 8.01am one day last week.

    Ok, anecdata. But people expected Brexit to sort all this. They wanted to believe the Leaver lies so they took the leap. They know now they were deceived. Revenge is coming. Hence the consistent polling. Covid and Ukraine as excuses don’t wash anymore.
    Would it console them to know that here in Remainia London things are not looking too bad?
    Perhaps not…
    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.

    This quote is pretty priceless:

    When he voted Conservative in 2019 – to “get Brexit done” – Holden had hoped things would get better, that the town’s good times would return. “But I see very little that has changed,” he says. “Where are all the new hospitals? I don’t see them. Bills are up, and prices are up. And the boats are still a real problem.

    There were, it seems, people who actually believed that shit from Dan Hannan.
    I was with a couple of mates the other week, both proud Leavers, who were bemoaning the impossibility of getting a plumber. I was very tempted, though I restrained myself - thanks to my iron willpower - from saying maybe all those Polish plumbers we voted to banish were perhaps a good thing?

    I was speaking to someone else in the boozer yesterday, a market trader, who was telling me how bad things are in Castleford indoor market, a stereotypical post-mining town in Red Wall Leaverstan. Yvette Cooper’s constituency. He took £60 yesterday. Not £60 profit. £60 all day. A trader a few stalls down took £7 all day.

    Now there are lots of reasons that will be hitting Cas indoor market’s financial health, but it is clear that towns across the UK are struggling, even in places we would consider traditionally prosperous. Things are very bad. Everything’s crumbling, nothing works. A friend was 172nd in the phone queue for a doctors appointment at 8.01am one day last week.

    Ok, anecdata. But people expected Brexit to sort all this. They wanted to believe the Leaver lies so they took the leap. They know now they were deceived. Revenge is coming. Hence the consistent polling. Covid and Ukraine as excuses don’t wash anymore.
    Yes. For many Brexit was really a vote for levelling up or a return to prosperity. Cummings knew that. The ERG, sadly, believed its own propaganda.
    Yup. What did many of these areas in the red wall have to lose. They were hardly prosperous prior to Brexit.

    If economic growth had been more evenly spread post the Brown Bust then it would have been different.

    Most telling comment for me during the debate was a town hall in Newcastle. A panellist cautioned a member of the audience that a brexit vote would damage growth to which he replied “what growth”.

    Anyone who thought the Tories would deliver post-Brexit prosperity to the north, especially if they lived through the 80s, needs their head examined.
    What do you mean by prosperity ?

    The basis of prosperity is being able to develop a skillset, get a job and afford a house.

    You can do that in Yorkshire now and easier than at any earlier time.

    No government can 'deliver prosperity' but what it can do is create opportunities for people to become prosperous.

    Ultimately that prosperity has to be worked for and gained by people acting for themselves.

    That can be difficult, especially so in a changing world.

    But shutting down supermarkets and internet shopping in an attempt to make Castleford market traders happy isn't going to happen.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,308
    ajb said:

    In Scotland, the leader who achieves independence becomes the first leader of a new nation. In northern Ireland, they become what - head of northern Ireland county council? Minster for unification?
    A less independent role anyway. So, they need to both be a true believer, and like the then-current Taoiseach; or be willing for that to be the culmination of their career .

    If Michelle O'Neill convinced Northern Ireland to vote for Irish Unity she becomes the next leader of Sinn Fein and replaces Mary Lou as Taoiseach (assuming SF are in government in Dublin at the time).

    Why be First Minister in Stormont when you can be Taoiseach in Dublin and get your photo in the White House next St Patrick's Day?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 44,916

    ydoethur said:

    Thanks to those who replied.

    My assumption would be that the South would emotionally desire reunification - the question might be whether they would be willing to pay the largeish bill that would come with it. At the moment, Northern Ireland is something of a dead loss economically and it has rather more generous public services than in the Republic.

    Of course, Sinn Féin's manifesto for Ireland includes an expansion in the south - e.g. an NHS style universal FPU healthcare system. So that may cease to matter as much if they are in power in Stormont and Dublin.

    And Sinn Fein have got the key economic portfolios in the new executive, so if it lasts for any length of time they have the opportunity to try and sort out the North's economy. Whether they have the imagination and ability to do so may be a rather different question.

    Polling is 66% in favour of reunification in the Republic, the other third split between don't know and no. Insofar as money will be an issue in the poll it will be an issue for Northern Ireland voters rather than those in the Republic, because the assumption will be that Dublin won't spend as freely as London.

    I would expect it to take a while before we get a border poll, though it's possible the dynamic of a Sinn Fein Taoiseach and First Minister at the same time might accelerate things.

    Also, if Sinn Fein win the position of First Minister again at the next Assembly election, how does Unionism react to the prospect of never having a Unionist First Minister ever again?
    Northern Ireland is going to boom now it has political stability. Because it is in the perfect Brexit position, inside the EU single market and inside the UK single market. Companies will flock there - they might even relocate from the south - quite an irony

    In 10 years the appetite in Ulster for reunification - with all its anguish - will be even less than it is now
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 38,654
    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    isam said:

    Carnyx said:

    isam said:

    Carnyx said:

    isam said:

    Just Sir Keir doing Sir Keir things

    NEW: Keir Starmer has ditched his promise to abolish the House of Lords in a first term as he seeks to make the Labour manifesto "bombproof" of Tory attacks

    [@ObserverUK]


    https://x.com/politlcsuk/status/1753892770601652717?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Er, "SKS is crap because he promises things we like" is hardly a winning argument, mind.
    He promises them, then says he’s not going to do them

    https://x.com/timmyvoe240886/status/1703030484995842357?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    No, you have it the wrong way round. He promised something you *don't* like, then changes his mind to match yourt preferred policies when you complain. And you think that's bad? What does that imply about your preferred policies?
    Eh?
    Saying "SKS adopts our preferred policies and we think that's bad" is not a great advertisement for one's *own* policies. OK,. SKS changes his mind - but you don't come over as very convinced by your own policies. That's all. It's always seemed a very odd line of argument by the Tories.
    I don't think @isam is a Tory. He supports Brexit and Johnson with an ardour that can match Mad Nad, but doesn't seem to like them much otherwise.
    Thank you. Fulsome apologies to Isam.

    Okay, scrub 'your' and substitute 'Tory'. It remains a general objection to Tory attacks on SKS's apparent inconsistencies that when SKS adopts effectivelyt the Tory position, the Tories are de facto attacking their own position.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,382
    The Dáil in Dublin is the prize for Sinn Féin, I think. Which is an incentive for them to be seen to be doing a good job in Belfast.

    De facto unification is a process. Brexit forces people to make a choice. People in Northern Ireland are increasingly choosing Ireland over Britain.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 43,514

    Foxy said:

    This is a remarkeable turnaround in the last decade and a bit:

    "She warned that Britain’s previously thriving pharmaceutical sector was now in a trade deficit because we have to import so much more medicine than before – the latest 2022 figures show a $5bn deficit globally, compared with a surplus of $9.7bn in 2010."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/04/brexit-trade-perks-firms-business-department-leaving-eu-companies

    What happened? I had thought that there was a bright future for this sector because of all the life science startups Britain also had. Where did it go wrong?
    A mixture of reasons I think, in particular consolidation in the pharmaceutical industry meaning fewer but bigger players. Also the stress in the NHS on cheap generic drugs which are mostly imported.

    Covid and Brexit have a small part to play, but mostly it is global trends.



  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 46,805

    Leon said:

    Yeah, not gonna happen. Next

    Leondamus had spoken, Ireland to be reunified by next weekend.
    What did happen in the rugby? ;)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 46,805
    Paris as she isn't often seen...


  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,308
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Thanks to those who replied.

    My assumption would be that the South would emotionally desire reunification - the question might be whether they would be willing to pay the largeish bill that would come with it. At the moment, Northern Ireland is something of a dead loss economically and it has rather more generous public services than in the Republic.

    Of course, Sinn Féin's manifesto for Ireland includes an expansion in the south - e.g. an NHS style universal FPU healthcare system. So that may cease to matter as much if they are in power in Stormont and Dublin.

    And Sinn Fein have got the key economic portfolios in the new executive, so if it lasts for any length of time they have the opportunity to try and sort out the North's economy. Whether they have the imagination and ability to do so may be a rather different question.

    While NI does have more generous public services in theory, in practice these are non functional. They publish their statistics here, so we can see waiting lists reach 4 years for routine ENT treatment in Belfast:

    https://online.hscni.net/my-waiting-times-ni/bhsct/bt-treatments/

    RoI healthcare has its own issues, but is functional. While some pay nothing, the average citizen pays £500 per year in medical charges, with fees for public healthcare and a larger private system. Overall results are generally superior to the NHS.

    https://www.movehub.com/uk/moving-abroad/ireland/healthcare-for-expats/

    Local independent TD, who is a complete racist shitbag btw, has a loyal local following because of the "eye buses" he's organised over many years to take eye operation patients to Belfast hospitals. That's a five hour drive.

    That wouldn't happen if the Republic had a better health service than Northern Ireland.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 43,514
    IanB2 said:

    Paris as she isn't often seen...


    I think you are setting up a strawman...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 60,479
    edited February 4
    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    "The Tories have clearly all but given up in this election. Tory MPs are refusing to campaign in Wellinborough for fear of being ridiculed and insulted, and because they think it would be a complete waste of their time. The party headquarters previously used by Bone was locked on Friday, showing no sign of life."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/03/anyone-but-peter-bone-voters-turn-to-labour-and-reform-uk-as-wellingborough-byelection-nears

    Could these byelections be the end for Sunak? Not even trying is not a good look.

    This quote is pretty priceless:

    When he voted Conservative in 2019 – to “get Brexit done” – Holden had hoped things would get better, that the town’s good times would return. “But I see very little that has changed,” he says. “Where are all the new hospitals? I don’t see them. Bills are up, and prices are up. And the boats are still a real problem.

    There were, it seems, people who actually believed that shit from Dan Hannan.
    I was with a couple of mates the other week, both proud Leavers, who were bemoaning the impossibility of getting a plumber. I was very tempted, though I restrained myself - thanks to my iron willpower - from saying maybe all those Polish plumbers we voted to banish were perhaps a good thing?

    I was speaking to someone else in the boozer yesterday, a market trader, who was telling me how bad things are in Castleford indoor market, a stereotypical post-mining town in Red Wall Leaverstan. Yvette Cooper’s constituency. He took £60 yesterday. Not £60 profit. £60 all day. A trader a few stalls down took £7 all day.

    Now there are lots of reasons that will be hitting Cas indoor market’s financial health, but it is clear that towns across the UK are struggling, even in places we would consider traditionally prosperous. Things are very bad. Everything’s crumbling, nothing works. A friend was 172nd in the phone queue for a doctors appointment at 8.01am one day last week.

    Ok, anecdata. But people expected Brexit to sort all this. They wanted to believe the Leaver lies so they took the leap. They know now they were deceived. Revenge is coming. Hence the consistent polling. Covid and Ukraine as excuses don’t wash anymore.
    Yes. For many Brexit was really a vote for levelling up or a return to prosperity. Cummings knew that. The ERG, sadly, believed its own propaganda.
    Yup. What did many of these areas in the red wall have to lose. They were hardly prosperous prior to Brexit.

    If economic growth had been more evenly spread post the Brown Bust then it would have been different.

    Most telling comment for me during the debate was a town hall in Newcastle. A panellist cautioned a member of the audience that a brexit vote would damage growth to which he replied “what growth”.

    The most telling comment to me is the opinion polls in which a large majority say that Brexit is a failure.

    I don't think five years of Starmer is likely to change their mind.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,437
    Dura_Ace said:

    Foxy said:

    This is a remarkeable turnaround in the last decade and a bit:

    "She warned that Britain’s previously thriving pharmaceutical sector was now in a trade deficit because we have to import so much more medicine than before – the latest 2022 figures show a $5bn deficit globally, compared with a surplus of $9.7bn in 2010."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/04/brexit-trade-perks-firms-business-department-leaving-eu-companies

    That photo of the tory hq is as evocative as Tragedy by the Sea.

    Urgh, who parked that ugly Passat outside?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,469
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sinn Fein won't miss their shot like the SNP did. Particularly, if they are in power in the 26 and the 6 by the time the vote comes as is, at least, possible.

    Tiocfaidh ar la.

    Does a border poll have to be held on both sides of the border, or just in the North?
    Both
    Don't give England and Wales ideas
    No chance England voting for Independence, they are fixated on bloodsucking the other parts of the UK dry.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,570
    edited February 4
    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    isam said:

    Carnyx said:

    isam said:

    Carnyx said:

    isam said:

    Just Sir Keir doing Sir Keir things

    NEW: Keir Starmer has ditched his promise to abolish the House of Lords in a first term as he seeks to make the Labour manifesto "bombproof" of Tory attacks

    [@ObserverUK]


    https://x.com/politlcsuk/status/1753892770601652717?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Er, "SKS is crap because he promises things we like" is hardly a winning argument, mind.
    He promises them, then says he’s not going to do them

    https://x.com/timmyvoe240886/status/1703030484995842357?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    No, you have it the wrong way round. He promised something you *don't* like, then changes his mind to match yourt preferred policies when you complain. And you think that's bad? What does that imply about your preferred policies?
    Eh?
    Saying "SKS adopts our preferred policies and we think that's bad" is not a great advertisement for one's *own* policies. OK,. SKS changes his mind - but you don't come over as very convinced by your own policies. That's all. It's always seemed a very odd line of argument by the Tories.
    I don't think @isam is a Tory. He supports Brexit and Johnson with an ardour that can match Mad Nad, but doesn't seem to like them much otherwise.
    Thank you. Fulsome apologies to Isam.

    Okay, scrub 'your' and substitute 'Tory'. It remains a general objection to Tory attacks on SKS's apparent inconsistencies that when SKS adopts effectivelyt the Tory position, the Tories are de facto attacking their own position.
    What about when he switches from saying politicians must accept the referendum
    Result “as a matter of principle” to saying it’s “an important point of principle” that there should be a second referendum in which Labour will campaign for Remain?
  • Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Foxy said:

    This is a remarkeable turnaround in the last decade and a bit:

    "She warned that Britain’s previously thriving pharmaceutical sector was now in a trade deficit because we have to import so much more medicine than before – the latest 2022 figures show a $5bn deficit globally, compared with a surplus of $9.7bn in 2010."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/04/brexit-trade-perks-firms-business-department-leaving-eu-companies

    That photo of the tory hq is as evocative as Tragedy by the Sea.

    Urgh, who parked that ugly Passat outside?
    Stop dissing Passats, that's basically an Audi A4, now if it was a Skoda Octavia....
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 43,514

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Thanks to those who replied.

    My assumption would be that the South would emotionally desire reunification - the question might be whether they would be willing to pay the largeish bill that would come with it. At the moment, Northern Ireland is something of a dead loss economically and it has rather more generous public services than in the Republic.

    Of course, Sinn Féin's manifesto for Ireland includes an expansion in the south - e.g. an NHS style universal FPU healthcare system. So that may cease to matter as much if they are in power in Stormont and Dublin.

    And Sinn Fein have got the key economic portfolios in the new executive, so if it lasts for any length of time they have the opportunity to try and sort out the North's economy. Whether they have the imagination and ability to do so may be a rather different question.

    While NI does have more generous public services in theory, in practice these are non functional. They publish their statistics here, so we can see waiting lists reach 4 years for routine ENT treatment in Belfast:

    https://online.hscni.net/my-waiting-times-ni/bhsct/bt-treatments/

    RoI healthcare has its own issues, but is functional. While some pay nothing, the average citizen pays £500 per year in medical charges, with fees for public healthcare and a larger private system. Overall results are generally superior to the NHS.

    https://www.movehub.com/uk/moving-abroad/ireland/healthcare-for-expats/

    Local independent TD, who is a complete racist shitbag btw, has a loyal local following because of the "eye buses" he's organised over many years to take eye operation patients to Belfast hospitals. That's a five hour drive.

    That wouldn't happen if the Republic had a better health service than Northern Ireland.
    As you can see from the link in my post the waiting times for a routine opthalmology appointment in Belfast is 88 weeks.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,469
    FF43 said:

    The Dáil in Dublin is the prize for Sinn Féin, I think. Which is an incentive for them to be seen to be doing a good job in Belfast.

    De facto unification is a process. Brexit forces people to make a choice. People in Northern Ireland are increasingly choosing Ireland over Britain.

    Jut have to hope they have less cowards and non Irish voting than Scotland had in 2014
This discussion has been closed.