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Scottish independence hasn’t gone away you know – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    MJWMJW Posts: 1,400
    Cyclefree said:

    "UNRWA claims: UN agency condemns aid halt over alleged help for Hamas attacks"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68119268

    "It is shocking to see a suspension of funds to the agency in reaction to allegations against a small group of staff, especially given the immediate action that UNRWA took by terminating their contracts and asking for a transparent independent investigation. "

    There's so much to be said about this, little of it good. Sacking staff *before* an investigation sort-of prejudices the investigation, doesn't it? And what are the terms of the investigation - is it just into the specific direct allegations, or more into the way UNRWA was working in Gaza? And on the other hand, is it valid to stop funds to an organisation that is apparently doing so much good, even if some of what its staff do is bad?

    It’s a suspension of funds not the stopping of them permanently. The suspicion is that those who were sacked are scapegoats.

    UNRWA vehicles were used by the Oct 7 terrorists. That requires cooperation. The question is how high the rot goes.

    It was also pretty disturbing to hear UNRWA’s spokeswoman on the radio this morning describing the suspension of funds as a “collective punishment” for the Palestinian people. That’s a very specific term in this context.

    It wasn't just vehicles. There are allegations that hostages were held in the homes of UNRWA officials.

    There is a further issue which is this: if there are close links between UNRWA and Hamas then governments cannot fund the former if that means funds reach Hamas, as it is a proscribed terrorist organisation. Doing so would be a criminal offence.

    That will be one reason why payment of money has been suspended until it is clear that nothing which goes to UNRWA will go to Hamas. Establishing that would be a challenging investigation in any circumstances, but particularly at the moment.

    There are other UN agencies which help Palestinian civilians so it is not the case that they will remain without assistance. At least I very much hope so.
    Indeed, before anyone (hello Owen Jones) claims this is a tiny number of bad apples, it's worth noting that those sacked for alleged participation on 7th October aren't the only allegations. There's also that hostages were held by UNRWA employees and of a UNRWA Telegram group of thousands containing widespread celebrations of the attacks. Plus longstanding allegations of Hamas propaganda being taught in UNRWA schools.

    Arguably the root of the problem is that UNRWA isn't a traditional refugee agency, which provides emergency assistance to those fleeing conflict or persecution, but has become a quasi-governmental organisation that provides what would be state services and employment in a permanent situation. In Gaza that means it has to work with Hamas and at its pleasure. Let's face it, if you were Hamas you'd be ensuring your operatives were present inside the organisation.

    Which, as ever in this conflict leaves a very difficult choice - how do you protect or help civilians when a genocidal terror group have embedded themselves so deeply into the running of a society, that they inevitably use said protection or help for their own, horrific ends? None of this is easy, no matter how much some want it to or make it out to be.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024
    Bharat is starting to flog a few boundaries, and the target score suddenly looks very achieveable for the home team.

    Going to be a close finish one way or the other though, which given the situation 24 hours ago is very good for England.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,560
    So @ThomasNashe and the BBC stymie England’s progress.

    Remember, India really *do* bat deep. Ashwin is a competent no. 5 in FCC and has five test centuries to his name.

    I would still make India favourites.
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    AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169
    At this point the woke debate is entirely going on inside about 6 peoples' heads.

    I have yet to meet somebody in real life who cares about this stuff.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,411
    Cyclefree said:

    "UNRWA claims: UN agency condemns aid halt over alleged help for Hamas attacks"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68119268

    "It is shocking to see a suspension of funds to the agency in reaction to allegations against a small group of staff, especially given the immediate action that UNRWA took by terminating their contracts and asking for a transparent independent investigation. "

    There's so much to be said about this, little of it good. Sacking staff *before* an investigation sort-of prejudices the investigation, doesn't it? And what are the terms of the investigation - is it just into the specific direct allegations, or more into the way UNRWA was working in Gaza? And on the other hand, is it valid to stop funds to an organisation that is apparently doing so much good, even if some of what its staff do is bad?

    It’s a suspension of funds not the stopping of them permanently. The suspicion is that those who were sacked are scapegoats.

    UNRWA vehicles were used by the Oct 7 terrorists. That requires cooperation. The question is how high the rot goes.

    It was also pretty disturbing to hear UNRWA’s spokeswoman on the radio this morning describing the suspension of funds as a “collective punishment” for the Palestinian people. That’s a very specific term in this context.

    It wasn't just vehicles. There are allegations that hostages were held in the homes of UNRWA officials.

    There is a further issue which is this: if there are close links between UNRWA and Hamas then governments cannot fund the former if that means funds reach Hamas, as it is a proscribed terrorist organisation. Doing so would be a criminal offence.

    That will be one reason why payment of money has been suspended until it is clear that nothing which goes to UNRWA will go to Hamas. Establishing that would be a challenging investigation in any circumstances, but particularly at the moment.

    There are other UN agencies which help Palestinian civilians so it is not the case that they will remain without assistance. At least I very much hope so.
    The Scottish govt, which continually pleads poverty, has not stopped giving money to UNRWA.

    https://x.com/humzayousaf/status/1751539405913813164?s=61&t=s0ae0IFncdLS1Dc7J0P_TQ
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024

    At this point the woke debate is entirely going on inside about 6 peoples' heads.

    I have yet to meet somebody in real life who cares about this stuff.

    I think the tipping point was probably when that Harvard Chairwoman couldn’t give a straight answer to whether chants of “Kill The Jews” were acceptable or not.
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    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,642
    edited January 28
    ydoethur said:

    So @ThomasNashe and the BBC stymie England’s progress.

    Remember, India really *do* bat deep. Ashwin is a competent no. 5 in FCC and has five test centuries to his name.

    I would still make India favourites.

    I do wish I'd been up earlier to bet against your early morning predictions of comfortable wins for a) Australia and b) India. Fabulous result for the Windies.
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,692
    edited January 28

    Taz said:

    Agreed on this. As someone who has never liked the SNP and still doesn't, I think the issue of Scottish independence is seperate and distinct from the politicians making the case for it. When I was growing up in Scotland I was a unionist but if I had a vote now it would probably be for independence. It would be very difficult economically in the short to medium term but I think Scotland is falling well short of where it could be as a country and needs to break free from the United Kingdom to achieve its long term potential.

    Given that it appears to be Groundhog Referendum Day on PB, Remainia is falling well short of where it could be as a country and needs to break free from Leavistan to achieve its long term potential.

    Bye bye Barnsley and Bolsover, good luck on your own.
    This is clear from some of the not so subtle messaging from Sadiq Khan. Labour's forthcoming victory will further embolden him and others of his persuasion.
    Although to win a majority labour needs these areas as much as it needs the big cities.
    I'm thinking more of what will happen after, rather than before, the election.

    Khan has bee a mediocre mayor at best. It is utterly bizarre that the Tories chose Susan Hall as their candidate. She is his best chance of holding on.

    CCHQ does not want to play by the rules. Unfortunately, its record at putting its thumb on the scale is mixed, to say the least. Susan Hall is Mayoral candidate after a failed attempt to rig the selection process for a Cameroon candidate who withdrew. We've already mentioned photo ID, and it
    lost the Brexit referendum after making it harder for Labour-leaning young people to vote.
    What are your thoughts about the extension of the registration period ahead of the Brexit vote?

    Internal party stuff is just that

    But the kind of allegations you make are close relatives of Trump’s approach: “they stole the election”


    The extension of the registration period was of course an attempt to undo what they'd done, once they realised its implications.
    Ah.

    So anything done that you think favours the other side is done deliberately and with ill intent to “steal the election”. And anything that favours your side is just and with moral intent to “right the balance”.

    Got it.

    See the problem with these accusations? They just undermine the democratic system in the west and play into the hands of the likes of Trump. We have a good system. It’s not perfect but it’s a damn sight better than the alternative
    No, I'm not saying that at all, so you have not got it. What I am saying is the government shot itself in the foot, Brexit-wise, with its changes that were intended to harm Labour. And we can tell the government knew what it had done by its desperate extension of the registration period that was called out at the time by Brexiteers. It put its thumb on one side of the scale to try and fix its previous unbalancing.

    And what has Trump to do with the price of fish? If you want to make the comparison with America, look at what the mainstream Republican Party was doing long before Trump was even a candidate.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,395
    DavidL said:

    Independence is driven by a number of factors but an important one is that Scotland elects damn few Tories and yet gets Tory governments because the English vote differently.

    It is no coincidence that Salmond, a supremely competent politician, contrived to have the referendum when there was a Tory government or that Better Together was led by a Labour politician.

    A Labour government with nearly half the seats in Scotland will defuse the Independence issue for a while, very probably the next decade. It will be a government that Scots have voted for.

    Independence will indeed not go away and when the Tories regain power in the mid to late 2030s it may well come back. But right now the danger has passed.

    ‘an important one is that Scotland elects damn few Tories and yet gets Tory governments because the English vote differently’

    I thought that was a feature not a bug for rightwing Scottish Unionists?
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    Taz said:

    On housing, from the FT. The graphic makes it clear that London and the South East s8mply are not building enough homes for the demand.

    Meanwhile areas in the north and midlands are building, in some cases, too many.

    It is hard to see how labour can really do anything about this to reverse it in the next Parliament.

    https://x.com/sam_dumitriu/status/1746830581428564014?s=61&t=s0ae0IFncdLS1Dc7J0P_TQ

    Remember that a significant number of people hold the opinion that the country is full. By country they mean England, and specifically the bit they live in. And yet housing density is still poor compared to other countries.

    What we really need to do is build a lot of apartment blocks in urban areas which both allow local businesses (shops, cafes etc) to thrive but also take the pressure off transport).

    Plenty of people would be happy living in them during phases of their lives. The problem is twofold:
    1) The obsession with home ownership. When you buy an apartment you only own a key. Not the flat. Not the land. And like rent you have to pay to live there. We need flats that people can rent. Nice flats. That don't cost £stupid. And yes that does mean rent caps and subsidies. Because having them drives the local economy to pay for the subsidy.
    2) The idiot cost-cutting which saw all these units built with rapid-burn panels on the outside. A lot of people are put off the idea because of the horrors of Grenfell and the scandal of the Tories leaving apartment owners in buildings that are worthless and can't be insured.

    So we need to empower housing associations to build, and to destigmatise both LA housing and apartment blocks.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,993
    edited January 28

    MJW said:

    Taz said:

    Agreed on this. As someone who has never liked the SNP and still doesn't, I think the issue of Scottish independence is seperate and distinct from the politicians making the case for it. When I was growing up in Scotland I was a unionist but if I had a vote now it would probably be for independence. It would be very difficult economically in the short to medium term but I think Scotland is falling well short of where it could be as a country and needs to break free from the United Kingdom to achieve its long term potential.

    Given that it appears to be Groundhog Referendum Day on PB, Remainia is falling well short of where it could be as a country and needs to break free from Leavistan to achieve its long term potential.

    Bye bye Barnsley and Bolsover, good luck on your own.
    What’s new. Areas like this have been on their own and left to wither for decades now anyway. Treated with barely disguised contempt by politicians across all parties.

    It was a major driver of the leave vote in these areas. Economic boom post crash. What economic boom. Areas like these never enjoyed it.

    Had prosperity been spread more evenly we would have never voted leave. Still, we did, and remainers need to get over it.
    The Remanian independence argument strikes me as being the sort of argument a toddler uses: ‘if we can’t have what I want, I’m taking my toys and going home’
    In that sense, it's rather similar to Brexit.
    Both share a similar logic and destructiveness.
    Remainia is a threat to break the demos because they lost the vote
    That's nonsense. I know of no one who wants only Remania (quite a large archipelago now) to Rejoin, indeed one reason to Rejoin as a United Kingdom is to stabilise the unity of the country by resolving Scottish and Northern Irish grievances with Brexit.

    There is of course schadenfreude for steel-workers, fishermen, farmers and others who voted Brexit and now find that far from bettering their lives it has made their situation worse. We told you so.

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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,138
    kjh said:

    Matthew Syed excellent, as usual, in The Sunday Times today - he is also very concerned about the Wokery:

    "The cultural retreat can be seen in other ways, too: in the drift towards lived experience rather than objective reality, the obsession with cat videos, the willingness to heatedly disagree on trivial matters such as whether cooking jerk chicken amounts to cultural appropriation — an exemplar of what the British anthropologist Ernest Crawley called “the narcissism of minor differences”.

    We have also spent an inordinate amount of time trashing our own nations and histories, which would have been fine if the debate had been conducted with nuance and wisdom. But the cartoon indictments of the West rarely take account of what we might call the plausible counterfactual: how would the world have looked if the Islamists, Bolsheviks or genocidal Chinese Communist Party had been in charge? The West, in this context, can be seen as the world’s greatest blessing, not its greatest curse. Yet it raises the question: why would youngsters today fight for a system they’ve been taught to despise?"


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/decadence-has-sapped-our-defences-we-need-more-than-military-service-qj55t3llf

    Hands up all those who have had a heated disagreement on whether cooking jerk chicken amounts to cultural appropriation. Thought not.
    Hands up those who believe Syed is able to define “objective reality”.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024
    Bharat out! Could England actually win this?
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,560
    Hmmm. Two overs left. Eight more available.

    Even allowing for that wicket, if I were India I'd try and claim the extra half hour. They need to whittle down the target as far as they can tonight.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,138

    At this point the woke debate is entirely going on inside about 6 peoples' heads.

    I have yet to meet somebody in real life who cares about this stuff.

    Well Leon might possibly turn up to the next PB drinks, if there is one.
    With Casino, that would be at least two.

    I’m not counting on Ron DeSantis, though.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,560
    Sandpit said:

    Bharat out! Could England actually win this?

    I'd be a lot happier if it were Ashwin that were out. Bumrah and he together can still win this.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,993
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Are we actually going to war with Putin?

    It seems utterly ridiculous, but a lot of apparently sensible people are raising the alarm

    Who are the people? Is 'apparently sensible' doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence?
    The Swedish government?


    Sweden's call for population to prepare for war sparks panic and criticism

    It’s been described as a bombshell moment. The upper echelons of Sweden’s government and defence forces last week shocked the nation by explicitly warning that war might come to Sweden, “

    https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20240118-sweden-s-call-for-population-to-prepare-for-war-sparks-panic-and-criticism
    This wouldn't be happening without serious intelligence of bad intentions.

    FWIW, I think it's actually about us all rearming sufficiently to deter Putin, so a war never happens.
    Nah, it's being driven by American Republicans stopping further aid to Ukraine and the prospect of Trump in the White House.

    They are doing exactly what Putin asks of them. I really cannot understand why @Sandpit supports them rather than Biden, who was Ukraines staunchest supporter.
    Most of the Republican objections to Ukraine aren’t so much about Ukraine itself, but the amounts of money that Biden is claiming to be spending there - the vast majority of which isn’t real new money at all, but overvaluing of old surplus military kit.

    I think that a change of government in the US changes little actually on the ground in Ukraine, but changes a lot in terms of Washington talking points.

    Personally I wouldn’t have a clue who to vote for in the US, all of the politicians are either far to the right, far to the left, or nakedly in it to enrich themselves. There’s almost no-one who appears to be in politics to make life better for the people they represent.
    The Ukranians seem rather keen to get more of that "overvalued old surplus military kit", and the MAGA Republicans dead set on opposing everything that Biden does to help push it through.

    The single biggest event to stop Putin in his tracks and save Ukraine would be a swing to the Democrats in this year's POTUS and Congressional elections. It would have Ukranians dancing in the streets.

  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,716

    At this point the woke debate is entirely going on inside about 6 peoples' heads.

    I have yet to meet somebody in real life who cares about this stuff.

    6? How on earth did you get up to 6?
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,138
    ydoethur said:

    So @ThomasNashe and the BBC stymie England’s progress.

    Remember, India really *do* bat deep. Ashwin is a competent no. 5 in FCC and has five test centuries to his name.

    I would still make India favourites.

    I would too.
    Though five wickets for Hartley against India is excellent stuff.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,942
    Taz said:
    Dear Deardre

    About 4 years ago I stopped eating meat. The idea of eating a living and breathing animal with a brain and personality became repulsive and I wished I'd never done it. More recently the notion of a country having an army which blows up buildings and kills people relatively indiscriminately to persude them to your point of view or subjugate them in some way seemed so bizarre that I found it difficult to accept as a rational concept

    My question is this; Was Jeremy the Holy Grail all along?

    Yours etc

    Roger
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,105
    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    "UNRWA claims: UN agency condemns aid halt over alleged help for Hamas attacks"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68119268

    "It is shocking to see a suspension of funds to the agency in reaction to allegations against a small group of staff, especially given the immediate action that UNRWA took by terminating their contracts and asking for a transparent independent investigation. "

    There's so much to be said about this, little of it good. Sacking staff *before* an investigation sort-of prejudices the investigation, doesn't it? And what are the terms of the investigation - is it just into the specific direct allegations, or more into the way UNRWA was working in Gaza? And on the other hand, is it valid to stop funds to an organisation that is apparently doing so much good, even if some of what its staff do is bad?

    It’s a suspension of funds not the stopping of them permanently. The suspicion is that those who were sacked are scapegoats.

    UNRWA vehicles were used by the Oct 7 terrorists. That requires cooperation. The question is how high the rot goes.

    It was also pretty disturbing to hear UNRWA’s spokeswoman on the radio this morning describing the suspension of funds as a “collective punishment” for the Palestinian people. That’s a very specific term in this context.

    It wasn't just vehicles. There are allegations that hostages were held in the homes of UNRWA officials.

    There is a further issue which is this: if there are close links between UNRWA and Hamas then governments cannot fund the former if that means funds reach Hamas, as it is a proscribed terrorist organisation. Doing so would be a criminal offence.

    That will be one reason why payment of money has been suspended until it is clear that nothing which goes to UNRWA will go to Hamas. Establishing that would be a challenging investigation in any circumstances, but particularly at the moment.

    There are other UN agencies which help Palestinian civilians so it is not the case that they will remain without assistance. At least I very much hope so.
    The Scottish govt, which continually pleads poverty, has not stopped giving money to UNRWA.

    https://x.com/humzayousaf/status/1751539405913813164?s=61&t=s0ae0IFncdLS1Dc7J0P_TQ
    Look at that wording. It has not stopped, because it had already completed its allocation before this blew up (so to speak).

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/24079560.unrwa-scottish-government-not-paused-funding/?ref=ebbn&nid=1457&u=f140ec39d500193051a33e140c12bd95&date=280124
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    isamisam Posts: 41,090
    Hello hello Hartley
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    I wicket needed for astonishing England win
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,730
    Nigelb said:

    At this point the woke debate is entirely going on inside about 6 peoples' heads.

    I have yet to meet somebody in real life who cares about this stuff.

    Well Leon might possibly turn up to the next PB drinks, if there is one.
    With Casino, that would be at least two.

    I’m not counting on Ron DeSantis, though.
    Do you guys really believe Wokeness is a fiction?

    I suspect you don’t believe that and you’re trolling. But if you do that’s a really bizarre pathology
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,560
    edited January 28
    Now then - might England claim the extra half hour?

    Edit - they have! And have Ashwin!
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,087
    edited January 28
    At times, it does look like Biden is, perhaps literally, sleepwalking us into WW3, cheered on by not-so-useful idiots in the West.

    The PMR is the only feasible further target for Russian possession and that'll probably take a decade after the SMO grinds to a halt, by which time Vovka will be in his 80s and Darren Grimes will be tory leader.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,138
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Are we actually going to war with Putin?

    It seems utterly ridiculous, but a lot of apparently sensible people are raising the alarm

    Who are the people? Is 'apparently sensible' doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence?
    The Swedish government?


    Sweden's call for population to prepare for war sparks panic and criticism

    It’s been described as a bombshell moment. The upper echelons of Sweden’s government and defence forces last week shocked the nation by explicitly warning that war might come to Sweden, “

    https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20240118-sweden-s-call-for-population-to-prepare-for-war-sparks-panic-and-criticism
    This wouldn't be happening without serious intelligence of bad intentions.

    FWIW, I think it's actually about us all rearming sufficiently to deter Putin, so a war never happens.
    Nah, it's being driven by American Republicans stopping further aid to Ukraine and the prospect of Trump in the White House.

    They are doing exactly what Putin asks of them. I really cannot understand why @Sandpit supports them rather than Biden, who was Ukraines staunchest supporter.
    Most of the Republican objections to Ukraine aren’t so much about Ukraine itself, but the amounts of money that Biden is claiming to be spending there - the vast majority of which isn’t real new money at all, but overvaluing of old surplus military kit.

    I think that a change of government in the US changes little actually on the ground in Ukraine, but changes a lot in terms of Washington talking points.

    Personally I wouldn’t have a clue who to vote for in the US, all of the politicians are either far to the right, far to the left, or nakedly in it to enrich themselves. There’s almost no-one who appears to be in politics to make life better for the people they represent.
    The Ukranians seem rather keen to get more of that "overvalued old surplus military kit", and the MAGA Republicans dead set on opposing everything that Biden does to help push it through.

    The single biggest event to stop Putin in his tracks and save Ukraine would be a swing to the Democrats in this year's POTUS and Congressional elections. It would have Ukranians dancing in the streets.

    The Republicans would evidently prefer to see another couple of million immigrants cross the border, and Ukraine capitulate to Putin, rather than give Biden any sort of deal before the election.

    They are nihilists.
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    On topic, independence is still very much the elephant in the Scottish political room. Whilst the SNP have shat themselves quite badly, the sense of national identity and the sense of being generally left behind driving this pang for something better.

    Whilst I don't support independence, I understand the argument. But in the post-Brexit world there is less desire than ever to throw ourselves off the cliff into the dark below. Easy to say you support independence knowing there won't be an actual vote on it for another decade or more. That support would drop if a vote was actually coming.

    Up here at North Pole North the Tories and SPN are at each other's throats. Almost everything they say is invective against the other. They attack each other in government. But they are BOTH in government and both lazily blame the other for all that is bad and try to claim credit for all that is good.

    It is, putting it simply, a massive distraction.
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    isamisam Posts: 41,090
    Roger said:


    Taz said:
    Dear Deardre

    About 4 years ago I stopped eating meat. The idea of eating a living and breathing animal with a brain and personality became repulsive and I wished I'd never done it. More recently the notion of a country having an army which blows up buildings and kills people relatively indiscriminately to persude them to your point of view or subjugate them in some way seemed so bizarre that I found it difficult to accept as a rational concept

    My question is this; Was Jeremy the Holy Grail all along?

    Yours etc

    Roger
    Did you really give up meat?
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,560
    edited January 28
    That said, Bumrah can hit hard. And he will thrash it.

    Didn't he steer India to victory against Aus that way a couple of years back?

    Edit - I think I might be confusing him with Rishabh Pant there.
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    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,673
    kjh said:

    At this point the woke debate is entirely going on inside about 6 peoples' heads.

    I have yet to meet somebody in real life who cares about this stuff.

    6? How on earth did you get up to 6?
    Four of them are Leons.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,810
    Roger said:


    Taz said:
    Dear Deardre

    About 4 years ago I stopped eating meat. The idea of eating a living and breathing animal with a brain and personality became repulsive and I wished I'd never done it. More recently the notion of a country having an army which blows up buildings and kills people relatively indiscriminately to persude them to your point of view or subjugate them in some way seemed so bizarre that I found it difficult to accept as a rational concept

    My question is this; Was Jeremy the Holy Grail all along?

    Yours etc

    Roger
    When the Lion and the Lamb lie down. Only one gets up.

    I understand that war is inconvenient - especially for those deprived of their yachts.
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    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,996
    edited January 28

    Matthew Syed excellent, as usual, in The Sunday Times today - he is also very concerned about the Wokery:

    "The cultural retreat can be seen in other ways, too: in the drift towards lived experience rather than objective reality, the obsession with cat videos, the willingness to heatedly disagree on trivial matters such as whether cooking jerk chicken amounts to cultural appropriation — an exemplar of what the British anthropologist Ernest Crawley called “the narcissism of minor differences”.

    We have also spent an inordinate amount of time trashing our own nations and histories, which would have been fine if the debate had been conducted with nuance and wisdom. But the cartoon indictments of the West rarely take account of what we might call the plausible counterfactual: how would the world have looked if the Islamists, Bolsheviks or genocidal Chinese Communist Party had been in charge? The West, in this context, can be seen as the world’s greatest blessing, not its greatest curse. Yet it raises the question: why would youngsters today fight for a system they’ve been taught to despise?"


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/decadence-has-sapped-our-defences-we-need-more-than-military-service-qj55t3llf

    Are cat videos woke?
    The cats I know spend much more time asleep than they are woke.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,138
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    At this point the woke debate is entirely going on inside about 6 peoples' heads.

    I have yet to meet somebody in real life who cares about this stuff.

    Well Leon might possibly turn up to the next PB drinks, if there is one.
    With Casino, that would be at least two.

    I’m not counting on Ron DeSantis, though.
    Do you guys really believe Wokeness is a fiction?

    I suspect you don’t believe that and you’re trolling. But if you do that’s a really bizarre pathology
    Just encouraging you and ‘Ninja to get together to compare notes.
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,052
    For the life of me I don't understand what this woke thing is about. Why the right think they can make political capital out of it just shows how ideologically bankrupt they have become.


    As far as I can see 99% of the population think that people have to compete competitively in the gender they were born into, and 99% of the population don't really agree with giving young children non reversible gender altering therapies. But if you do have the odd under 18 who is so unhappy with their gender that they are suicidal as I have encountered, then this decision should be made with a Health Professional, Parent and Child and is no one elses business.

    I cannot for the life see what is the problem in gender neutral cubicles toilets where you might wash your hands in a shared use sink. Hopefully, it will shame more fellas into washing their hands afterwards. Grosses me out with men using a public loo and then leaving without washing their hands- especially if there is a knob or door handle. Years ago I was in Upstate New York and the public loos didn't have doors. I suffered the most horrendous constipation.

    And, probably my most controversial opinion- I cannot see the problem in Trans being able to have some say on which gendered prison they go to. Again, subject to the prison authorities and a medical opinion. I've been in a lot of prisons over the years with work, including women's prisons where the person would be much safer in a gender prison they felt more aligned to. But considering the current state of our prisons, drugs, overcrowding, horrendous bullying and internal (terrible) offending.,..this specific issue is probably about a thousand down the list in terms of gravity.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,090
    India traded 1.02 in the Cricket, now England are 1.01
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,138

    I wicket needed for astonishing England win

    Five runs from the rest of the over, though.
    It’s not over yet.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,395
    Nigelb said:

    kjh said:

    Matthew Syed excellent, as usual, in The Sunday Times today - he is also very concerned about the Wokery:

    "The cultural retreat can be seen in other ways, too: in the drift towards lived experience rather than objective reality, the obsession with cat videos, the willingness to heatedly disagree on trivial matters such as whether cooking jerk chicken amounts to cultural appropriation — an exemplar of what the British anthropologist Ernest Crawley called “the narcissism of minor differences”.

    We have also spent an inordinate amount of time trashing our own nations and histories, which would have been fine if the debate had been conducted with nuance and wisdom. But the cartoon indictments of the West rarely take account of what we might call the plausible counterfactual: how would the world have looked if the Islamists, Bolsheviks or genocidal Chinese Communist Party had been in charge? The West, in this context, can be seen as the world’s greatest blessing, not its greatest curse. Yet it raises the question: why would youngsters today fight for a system they’ve been taught to despise?"


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/decadence-has-sapped-our-defences-we-need-more-than-military-service-qj55t3llf

    Hands up all those who have had a heated disagreement on whether cooking jerk chicken amounts to cultural appropriation. Thought not.
    Hands up those who believe Syed is able to define “objective reality”.
    He played ping pong for Britain, this is objectively true and he constantly brings it up in in his ‘common sense’ output. Does that count?
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024
    ydoethur said:

    Now then - might England claim the extra half hour?

    Edit - they have! And have Ashwin!

    Got him, this is going to be a famous win for England.

    Yesterday lunchtime I was saying that at least we avoided the innings defeat, and on Friday I was saying that England should concede and take the weekend off! Happy to have been very wrong.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,560
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Now then - might England claim the extra half hour?

    Edit - they have! And have Ashwin!

    Got him, this is going to be a famous win for England.

    Yesterday lunchtime I was saying that at least we avoided the innings defeat, and on Friday I was saying that England should concede and take the weekend off! Happy to have been very wrong.
    If they lose from here you can join @ThomasNashe and that BBC sub on my hate list.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,730
    Sky Go chose a really bad day to work out I’m using VPN to watch the cricket
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,138

    Nigelb said:

    kjh said:

    Matthew Syed excellent, as usual, in The Sunday Times today - he is also very concerned about the Wokery:

    "The cultural retreat can be seen in other ways, too: in the drift towards lived experience rather than objective reality, the obsession with cat videos, the willingness to heatedly disagree on trivial matters such as whether cooking jerk chicken amounts to cultural appropriation — an exemplar of what the British anthropologist Ernest Crawley called “the narcissism of minor differences”.

    We have also spent an inordinate amount of time trashing our own nations and histories, which would have been fine if the debate had been conducted with nuance and wisdom. But the cartoon indictments of the West rarely take account of what we might call the plausible counterfactual: how would the world have looked if the Islamists, Bolsheviks or genocidal Chinese Communist Party had been in charge? The West, in this context, can be seen as the world’s greatest blessing, not its greatest curse. Yet it raises the question: why would youngsters today fight for a system they’ve been taught to despise?"


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/decadence-has-sapped-our-defences-we-need-more-than-military-service-qj55t3llf

    Hands up all those who have had a heated disagreement on whether cooking jerk chicken amounts to cultural appropriation. Thought not.
    Hands up those who believe Syed is able to define “objective reality”.
    He played ping pong for Britain, this is objectively true and he constantly brings it up in in his ‘common sense’ output. Does that count?
    He’s defining it against “lived experience”, though.
    As someone who’s made a pretty good career out of talking about his lived experience as a ping pong player, it seems an odd thing to do.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,156
    Sod's Law that there's interesting cricket and tennis at the same time, and I want to listen to both.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,560
    Leon said:

    Sky Go chose a really bad day to work out I’m using VPN to watch the cricket

    I can't even get it on bloody Sky, the rights are on TNT.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,560
    Andy_JS said:

    Sod's Law that there's interesting cricket and tennis at the same time, and I want to listen to both.

    If you listen to both at once you'll have a hell of a racket.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,730
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Sky Go chose a really bad day to work out I’m using VPN to watch the cricket

    I can't even get it on bloody Sky, the rights are on TNT.
    This is so tense maybe I’m glad I can’t watch it
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Now then - might England claim the extra half hour?

    Edit - they have! And have Ashwin!

    Got him, this is going to be a famous win for England.

    Yesterday lunchtime I was saying that at least we avoided the innings defeat, and on Friday I was saying that England should concede and take the weekend off! Happy to have been very wrong.
    If they lose from here you can join @ThomasNashe and that BBC sub on my hate list.
    If #10 and #11 can put on 55 runs, then they deserve the win.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,692
    Leon said:

    Sky Go chose a really bad day to work out I’m using VPN to watch the cricket

    India is full of 5-star resorts and hotels that need reviewing.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,560
    Incidentally, spare a thought for Rehan Ahmed. First test a dream, second one a bit of a mare. 2/105and no wickets in this innings.
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    maxhmaxh Posts: 855
    edited January 28
    MJW said:

    Cyclefree said:

    "UNRWA claims: UN agency condemns aid halt over alleged help for Hamas attacks"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68119268

    "It is shocking to see a suspension of funds to the agency in reaction to allegations against a small group of staff, especially given the immediate action that UNRWA took by terminating their contracts and asking for a transparent independent investigation. "

    There's so much to be said about this, little of it good. Sacking staff *before* an investigation sort-of prejudices the investigation, doesn't it? And what are the terms of the investigation - is it just into the specific direct allegations, or more into the way UNRWA was working in Gaza? And on the other hand, is it valid to stop funds to an organisation that is apparently doing so much good, even if some of what its staff do is bad?

    It’s a suspension of funds not the stopping of them permanently. The suspicion is that those who were sacked are scapegoats.

    UNRWA vehicles were used by the Oct 7 terrorists. That requires cooperation. The question is how high the rot goes.

    It was also pretty disturbing to hear UNRWA’s spokeswoman on the radio this morning describing the suspension of funds as a “collective punishment” for the Palestinian people. That’s a very specific term in this context.

    It wasn't just vehicles. There are allegations that hostages were held in the homes of UNRWA officials.

    There is a further issue which is this: if there are close links between UNRWA and Hamas then governments cannot fund the former if that means funds reach Hamas, as it is a proscribed terrorist organisation. Doing so would be a criminal offence.

    That will be one reason why payment of money has been suspended until it is clear that nothing which goes to UNRWA will go to Hamas. Establishing that would be a challenging investigation in any circumstances, but particularly at the moment.

    There are other UN agencies which help Palestinian civilians so it is not the case that they will remain without assistance. At least I very much hope so.
    Indeed, before anyone (hello Owen Jones) claims this is a tiny number of bad apples, it's worth noting that those sacked for alleged participation on 7th October aren't the only allegations. There's also that hostages were held by UNRWA employees and of a UNRWA Telegram group of thousands containing widespread celebrations of the attacks. Plus longstanding allegations of Hamas propaganda being taught in UNRWA schools.

    Arguably the root of the problem is that UNRWA isn't a traditional refugee agency, which provides emergency assistance to those fleeing conflict or persecution, but has become a quasi-governmental organisation that provides what would be state services and employment in a permanent situation. In Gaza that means it has to work with Hamas and at its pleasure. Let's face it, if you were Hamas you'd be ensuring your operatives were present inside the organisation.

    Which, as ever in this conflict leaves a very difficult choice - how do you protect or help civilians when a genocidal terror group have embedded themselves so deeply into the running of a society, that they inevitably use said protection or help for their own, horrific ends? None of this is easy, no matter how much some want it to or make it out to be.
    Yes, there is, sadly precedent and protocol for this. Amongst humanitarian aid agencies there are a set of standards called Sphere (https://handbook.spherestandards.org/en/sphere/#ch001). The standards set out how to respond effectively in humanitarian disasters and include a clear requirement not to provide aid or funding that can indirectly benefit armed groups.

    If the claims about UNRWA are true it’s entirely within the bounds of humanitarian standards to stop funding them, tragic though that is.

    ETA: I’m not really commenting on the morality of this, which is so complex as you say.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,105
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Are we actually going to war with Putin?

    It seems utterly ridiculous, but a lot of apparently sensible people are raising the alarm

    Who are the people? Is 'apparently sensible' doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence?
    The Swedish government?


    Sweden's call for population to prepare for war sparks panic and criticism

    It’s been described as a bombshell moment. The upper echelons of Sweden’s government and defence forces last week shocked the nation by explicitly warning that war might come to Sweden, “

    https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20240118-sweden-s-call-for-population-to-prepare-for-war-sparks-panic-and-criticism
    This wouldn't be happening without serious intelligence of bad intentions.

    FWIW, I think it's actually about us all rearming sufficiently to deter Putin, so a war never happens.
    Nah, it's being driven by American Republicans stopping further aid to Ukraine and the prospect of Trump in the White House.

    They are doing exactly what Putin asks of them. I really cannot understand why @Sandpit supports them rather than Biden, who was Ukraines staunchest supporter.
    Most of the Republican objections to Ukraine aren’t so much about Ukraine itself, but the amounts of money that Biden is claiming to be spending there - the vast majority of which isn’t real new money at all, but overvaluing of old surplus military kit.

    I think that a change of government in the US changes little actually on the ground in Ukraine, but changes a lot in terms of Washington talking points.

    Personally I wouldn’t have a clue who to vote for in the US, all of the politicians are either far to the right, far to the left, or nakedly in it to enrich themselves. There’s almost no-one who appears to be in politics to make life better for the people they represent.
    The Ukranians seem rather keen to get more of that "overvalued old surplus military kit", and the MAGA Republicans dead set on opposing everything that Biden does to help push it through.

    The single biggest event to stop Putin in his tracks and save Ukraine would be a swing to the Democrats in this year's POTUS and Congressional elections. It would have Ukranians dancing in the streets.

    The Republicans would evidently prefer to see another couple of million immigrants cross the border, and Ukraine capitulate to Putin, rather than give Biden any sort of deal before the election.

    They are nihilists.
    It's generally accepted I think that parties will bear some short term pain for their country in service to a 'greater good' of them taking over power in the future. Bluntly that's part of what being in party is going to mean, since you by definition believe things will be better if your lot are in charge.

    But the GOP go insanely beyond that. They have a hard core of representatives who appear to see any kind of governance or legislation as bad and to be opposed, and the majority of them perfectly happy to go along with that. They appear to have no ambitions beyond getting themselves onto news shows, and not only don't want to give opponents a 'win', but see any deal in itself as a bad thing.*

    You'd think on either side you'd have a few more willing to vote with the other lot for sake of a deal, if they are retiring for example, but even then they rarely seem to.

    *not to the same level, but it reminds me of some Tories who claimed any deal the EU would accept was proof that it was not a deal that they could accept. Like the deal we ended up with or not, that seems to fundamentally misunderstand what a deal is.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,730
    Aaand now we’re about to take off so I can’t even follow the text cricket updates

    Won’t know till we land

    Aaaargh. Cmon Stokesy. One more miracle
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,716
    Nigelb said:

    kjh said:

    Matthew Syed excellent, as usual, in The Sunday Times today - he is also very concerned about the Wokery:

    "The cultural retreat can be seen in other ways, too: in the drift towards lived experience rather than objective reality, the obsession with cat videos, the willingness to heatedly disagree on trivial matters such as whether cooking jerk chicken amounts to cultural appropriation — an exemplar of what the British anthropologist Ernest Crawley called “the narcissism of minor differences”.

    We have also spent an inordinate amount of time trashing our own nations and histories, which would have been fine if the debate had been conducted with nuance and wisdom. But the cartoon indictments of the West rarely take account of what we might call the plausible counterfactual: how would the world have looked if the Islamists, Bolsheviks or genocidal Chinese Communist Party had been in charge? The West, in this context, can be seen as the world’s greatest blessing, not its greatest curse. Yet it raises the question: why would youngsters today fight for a system they’ve been taught to despise?"


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/decadence-has-sapped-our-defences-we-need-more-than-military-service-qj55t3llf

    Hands up all those who have had a heated disagreement on whether cooking jerk chicken amounts to cultural appropriation. Thought not.
    Hands up those who believe Syed is able to define “objective reality”.
    I'm assuming Syed, Casino and Leon are all at the same BBQ eating jerk chicken. Can't think of any other explanation.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,560
    Foakes hasn't kept as tidily as usual in this game, which will probably annoy him, but he's keeping the pressure on the batsmen with his attempts at stumping.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,162
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Are we actually going to war with Putin?

    It seems utterly ridiculous, but a lot of apparently sensible people are raising the alarm

    Who are the people? Is 'apparently sensible' doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence?
    The Swedish government?


    Sweden's call for population to prepare for war sparks panic and criticism

    It’s been described as a bombshell moment. The upper echelons of Sweden’s government and defence forces last week shocked the nation by explicitly warning that war might come to Sweden, “

    https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20240118-sweden-s-call-for-population-to-prepare-for-war-sparks-panic-and-criticism
    This wouldn't be happening without serious intelligence of bad intentions.

    FWIW, I think it's actually about us all rearming sufficiently to deter Putin, so a war never happens.
    Nah, it's being driven by American Republicans stopping further aid to Ukraine and the prospect of Trump in the White House.

    They are doing exactly what Putin asks of them. I really cannot understand why @Sandpit supports them rather than Biden, who was Ukraines staunchest supporter.
    Most of the Republican objections to Ukraine aren’t so much about Ukraine itself, but the amounts of money that Biden is claiming to be spending there - the vast majority of which isn’t real new money at all, but overvaluing of old surplus military kit.

    I think that a change of government in the US changes little actually on the ground in Ukraine, but changes a lot in terms of Washington talking points.

    Personally I wouldn’t have a clue who to vote for in the US, all of the politicians are either far to the right, far to the left, or
    nakedly in it to enrich themselves. There’s almost no-one who appears to be in politics
    to make life better for the people they
    represent.
    I’m not sure. I think Trumps opposition is simply anti-Bidenism

    As a thought experiment: if he had been President and not supported the UK and UKR then he would have acknowledged Putin as his capo.

    I think he would have fought.

  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,156
    edited January 28
    Yesterday I thought about putting a bet on England at 6/1 but of course pulled out at the last minute, thinking they couldn't possibly do it.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,810
    Foxy said:

    Roger said:


    Taz said:
    Dear Deardre

    About 4 years ago I stopped eating meat. The idea of eating a living and breathing animal with a brain and personality became repulsive and I wished I'd never done it. More recently the notion of a country having an army which blows up buildings and kills people relatively indiscriminately to persude them to your point of view or subjugate them in some way seemed so bizarre that I found it difficult to accept as a rational concept

    My question is this; Was Jeremy the Holy Grail all along?

    Yours etc

    Roger
    No.

    Jeremy Corbyn only opposed Isael and the West blowing up buildings and killing people. He was relaxed about Palestinians or others doing it.

    Orwell noted that “Pacifism” in his time seemed somewhat one-sided. Nothing changes.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,582
    Andy_JS said:

    Sod's Law that there's interesting cricket and tennis at the same time, and I want to listen to both.

    Have you seen the amazing weather out here? Rarer than sport at this time of year.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,730

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Are we actually going to war with Putin?

    It seems utterly ridiculous, but a lot of apparently sensible people are raising the alarm

    Who are the people? Is 'apparently sensible' doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence?
    The Swedish government?


    Sweden's call for population to prepare for war sparks panic and criticism

    It’s been described as a bombshell moment. The upper echelons of Sweden’s government and defence forces last week shocked the nation by explicitly warning that war might come to Sweden, “

    https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20240118-sweden-s-call-for-population-to-prepare-for-war-sparks-panic-and-criticism
    This wouldn't be happening without serious intelligence of bad intentions.

    FWIW, I think it's actually about us all rearming sufficiently to deter Putin, so a war never happens.
    Nah, it's being driven by American Republicans stopping further aid to Ukraine and the prospect of Trump in the White House.

    They are doing exactly what Putin asks of them. I really cannot understand why @Sandpit supports them rather than Biden, who was Ukraines staunchest supporter.
    Most of the Republican objections to Ukraine aren’t so much about Ukraine itself, but the amounts of money that Biden is claiming to be spending there - the vast majority of which isn’t real new money at all, but overvaluing of old surplus military kit.

    I think that a change of government in the US changes little actually on the ground in Ukraine, but changes a lot in terms of Washington talking points.

    Personally I wouldn’t have a clue who to vote for in the US, all of the politicians are either far to the right, far to the left, or
    nakedly in it to enrich themselves. There’s almost no-one who appears to be in politics
    to make life better for the people they
    represent.
    I’m not sure. I think Trumps opposition is simply anti-Bidenism

    As a thought experiment: if he had been President and not supported the UK and UKR then he would have acknowledged Putin as his capo.

    I think he would have fought.

    Yeah I don’t buy the Trump as pacifist defeatist narrative. I can actually see him nuking a country he doesn’t like - which Biden would never do

    So Trump might be right when he says Putin would not have taken the risk of invading Ukraine under his watch. The madman theory etc. We will never know.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,560
    32 to get, one wicket in hand, four overs to the close.

    This is going to be close!
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,162
    Cyclefree said:

    "UNRWA claims: UN agency condemns aid halt over alleged help for Hamas attacks"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68119268

    "It is shocking to see a suspension of funds to the agency in reaction to allegations against a small group of staff, especially given the immediate action that UNRWA took by terminating their contracts and asking for a transparent independent investigation. "

    There's so much to be said about this, little of it good. Sacking staff *before* an investigation sort-of prejudices the investigation, doesn't it? And what are the terms of the investigation - is it just into the specific direct allegations, or more into the way UNRWA was working in Gaza? And on the other hand, is it valid to stop funds to an organisation that is apparently doing so much good, even if some of what its staff do is bad?

    It’s a suspension of funds not the stopping of them permanently. The suspicion is that those who were sacked are scapegoats.

    UNRWA vehicles were used by the Oct 7 terrorists. That requires cooperation. The question is how high the rot goes.

    It was also pretty disturbing to hear UNRWA’s spokeswoman on the radio this morning describing the suspension of funds as a “collective punishment” for the Palestinian people. That’s a very specific term in this context.

    It wasn't just vehicles. There are allegations that hostages were held in the homes of UNRWA officials.

    There is a further issue which is this: if there are close links between UNRWA and Hamas then governments cannot fund the former if that means funds reach Hamas, as it is a proscribed terrorist organisation. Doing so would be a criminal offence.

    That will be one reason why payment of money has been suspended until it is clear that nothing which goes to UNRWA will go to Hamas. Establishing that would be a challenging investigation in any circumstances, but particularly at the moment.

    There are other UN agencies which help
    Palestinian civilians so it is not the case that they will remain without assistance. At least I very much hope so.
    The UN is a corrupt and disgraceful organisation. Any body that elects Syria (I think - but someone equivalent if not) to their Human Rights committee is past the point of redemption
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024
    Eight from that over. This is horribly tense.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,105

    Foxy said:

    Roger said:


    Taz said:
    Dear Deardre

    About 4 years ago I stopped eating meat. The idea of eating a living and breathing animal with a brain and personality became repulsive and I wished I'd never done it. More recently the notion of a country having an army which blows up buildings and kills people relatively indiscriminately to persude them to your point of view or subjugate them in some way seemed so bizarre that I found it difficult to accept as a rational concept

    My question is this; Was Jeremy the Holy Grail all along?

    Yours etc

    Roger
    No.

    Jeremy Corbyn only opposed Isael and the West blowing up buildings and killing people. He was relaxed about Palestinians or others doing it.

    Orwell noted that “Pacifism” in his time seemed somewhat one-sided. Nothing changes.
    It's an odd (yet paradoxically very common) kind of person who appears to find it physically and mentally difficult to conceive of not being faultlessly righteous.

    If we only condemn specific atrocities for example, then we're not really anti-atrocity at all. It shouldn't be so hard to take sides, on the basis of not all sins being equal, without denying or avoiding (or even celebrating) the sins of the side picked.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,560
    edited January 28
    Wood on.

    Can he pull one out?

    Sorry Rehan. I tried my best for you but Foakes was fractionally late with the stumping.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,730
    Now I’m definitely glad I cant watch. Behind the sofa stuff
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,162
    Tres said:

    Taz said:

    Agreed on this. As someone who has never liked the SNP and still doesn't, I think the issue of Scottish independence is seperate and distinct from the politicians making the case for it. When I was growing up in Scotland I was a unionist but if I had a vote now it would probably be for independence. It would be very difficult economically in the short to medium term but I think Scotland is falling well short of where it could be as a country and needs to break free from the United Kingdom to achieve its long term potential.

    Given that it appears to be Groundhog Referendum Day on PB, Remainia is falling well short of where it could be as a country and needs to break free from Leavistan to achieve its long term potential.

    Bye bye Barnsley and Bolsover, good luck on your own.
    This is clear from some of the not so subtle messaging from Sadiq Khan. Labour's forthcoming victory will further embolden him and others of his persuasion.
    Although to win a majority labour needs these areas as much as it needs the big cities.
    I'm thinking more of what will happen after, rather than before, the election.

    Khan has bee a mediocre mayor at best. It is utterly bizarre that the Tories chose Susan Hall as their candidate. She is his best chance of holding on.

    CCHQ does not want to play by the rules. Unfortunately, its record at putting its thumb on the scale is mixed, to say the least. Susan Hall is Mayoral candidate after a failed attempt to rig the selection process for a Cameroon candidate who withdrew. We've already mentioned photo ID, and it
    lost the Brexit referendum after making it harder for Labour-leaning young people to vote.
    What are your thoughts about the extension of the registration period ahead of the Brexit vote?

    Internal party stuff is just that

    But the kind of allegations you make are close relatives of Trump’s approach: “they stole the election”


    The extension of the registration period was of course an attempt to undo what they'd done, once they realised its implications.
    Ah.

    So anything done that you think favours the other side is done deliberately and with ill intent to “steal the election”. And anything that favours your side is just and with moral intent to “right the balance”.

    Got it.

    See the problem with these accusations? They just undermine the democratic system in the west and play into the hands of the likes of Trump. We have a good system. It’s not perfect but it’s a damn sight better than the alternative

    The tories have been quite clear about their motivations for fiddling around with electoral registration. So blame them for undermining the democratic system, not the people calling them out for it.
    Link?

    I’ve seen lots of accusations but nothing from the people in charge
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,138
    edited January 28
    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally, spare a thought for Rehan Ahmed. First test a dream, second one a bit of a mare. 2/105and no wickets in this innings.

    Getting slapped about, and learning to deal with it, is a necessary part of any spinner’s education. I think the current England setup is much better for that; back in the day he’d be dropped for the next test, and possibly never heard from again.

    Note Stokes is sticking with him at the death.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,730
    India are gonna wish this

    Thus Spake LEONDAMUS
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,156
    Australia Open goes to final set.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/tennis/67779985
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,293
    The Mona Lisa has been hit by soup by French farming activists.

    https://x.com/le_figaro/status/1751553846223028597
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    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    At this point the woke debate is entirely going on inside about 6 peoples' heads.

    I have yet to meet somebody in real life who cares about this stuff.

    Well Leon might possibly turn up to the next PB drinks, if there is one.
    With Casino, that would be at least two.

    I’m not counting on Ron DeSantis, though.
    Do you guys really believe Wokeness is a fiction?

    I suspect you don’t believe that and you’re trolling. But if you do that’s a really bizarre pathology
    Yes. Woke is a figment of your deranged imagination.

    The examples you give of "woke" are often real. Idiots doing idiot things. But some giant cultural conspiracy where there is a "woke" club you can sign up to with a manifesto and things for you to do to be "woke"? No.

    And the elephant in the room. "Woke" is code for "anything I disagree with". If it is a culture war, its one being conducted by the people whining on about it.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024
    edited January 28
    Andy_JS said:

    Australia Open goes to final set.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/tennis/67779985

    It’s 11pm in Melbourne!

    Momentum is with Sinner now, and Medvedev had a very tough route to get to the final.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,560
    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Australia Open goes to final set.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/tennis/67779985

    It’s 11pm in Melbourne!
    Why has Medvedev taken his shoes off?
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    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,162
    MJW said:

    Cyclefree said:

    "UNRWA claims: UN agency condemns aid halt over alleged help for Hamas attacks"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68119268

    "It is shocking to see a suspension of funds to the agency in reaction to allegations against a small group of staff, especially given the immediate action that UNRWA took by terminating their contracts and asking for a transparent independent investigation. "

    There's so much to be said about this, little of it good. Sacking staff *before* an investigation sort-of prejudices the investigation, doesn't it? And what are the terms of the investigation - is it just into the specific direct allegations, or more into the way UNRWA was working in Gaza? And on the other hand, is it valid to stop funds to an organisation that is apparently doing so much good, even if some of what its staff do is bad?

    It’s a suspension of funds not the stopping of them permanently. The suspicion is that those who were sacked are scapegoats.

    UNRWA vehicles were used by the Oct 7 terrorists. That requires cooperation. The question is how high the rot goes.

    It was also pretty disturbing to hear UNRWA’s spokeswoman on the radio this morning describing the suspension of funds as a “collective punishment” for the Palestinian people. That’s a very specific term in this context.

    It wasn't just vehicles. There are allegations that hostages were held in the homes of UNRWA officials.

    There is a further issue which is this: if there are close links between UNRWA and Hamas then governments cannot fund the former if that means funds reach Hamas, as it is a proscribed terrorist organisation. Doing so would be a criminal offence.

    That will be one reason why payment of money has been suspended until it is clear that nothing which goes to UNRWA will go to Hamas. Establishing that would be a challenging investigation in any circumstances, but particularly at the moment.

    There are other UN agencies which help Palestinian civilians so it is not the case that they will remain without assistance. At least I very much hope so.
    Indeed, before anyone (hello Owen Jones) claims this is a tiny number of bad apples, it's worth noting that those sacked for alleged participation on 7th October aren't the only allegations. There's also that hostages were held by UNRWA employees and of a UNRWA Telegram group of thousands containing widespread celebrations of the attacks. Plus longstanding allegations of Hamas propaganda being taught in UNRWA schools.

    Arguably the root of the problem is that UNRWA isn't a traditional refugee agency, which provides emergency assistance to those fleeing conflict or persecution, but has become a quasi-governmental organisation that provides what would be state services and employment in a permanent situation. In Gaza that means it has to work with Hamas and at its pleasure. Let's face it, if you were Hamas you'd be ensuring your operatives were present inside the organisation.

    Which, as ever in this conflict leaves a very
    difficult choice - how do you protect or help civilians when a genocidal terror group have embedded themselves so deeply into the running of a society, that they inevitably use said protection or help for their own, horrific ends? None of this is easy, no matter how much some want it to or make it out to be.
    The answer is you have no choice but to root out the terror organisation. Civilian casualties should be minimised (but will never be zero) but if you succeed then Jeremy Bentham would approve
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,730
    Actually want the plane to take off now so I can’t follow this bitter defeat to the end
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,730
    AAARGH
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    Won it
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024
    ENGLAND!!!!! 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 🏏
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,560
    YEEEESSSSSSS! IT'S ALL FOAKES!

    I never doubted it. And I'm claiming those last three wickets!
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,730

    Won it


    AHAHAHAHAHA


    YESSSSSS
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,156
    England win.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,228
    edited January 28
    If polls show a Unionist majority at Holyrood and Labour winning most seats in Scotland again, then polls on Scottish independence become completely irrelevant.

    The Scottish government would then not even have a majority for indyref2 at Holyrood for Westminster to ignore. You could have 99% for independence in polls but without an SNP or SNP and Green pro independence majority at Holyrood and an SNP majority of Scottish MPs, who cares?
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,560
    Problem

    Who the fuck is man of the match?

    Pope for his 196?

    Or Hartley for his 7/63 after getting carted in the first innings?
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,730
    The curse of LEONDAMUS works its fiendish magic
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,730
    Haha
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,560
    That was a heist. That's comparable in silly results if not to Headingley '81 certainly Headingley '01.
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    ydoethur said:

    Problem

    Who the fuck is man of the match?

    Pope for his 196?

    Or Hartley for his 7/63 after getting carted in the first innings?

    I agree - joint winner maybe
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,156
    edited January 28
    Leon said:

    Actually want the plane to take off now so I can’t follow this bitter defeat to the end

    You can order champagne now. 😊
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,692

    The Mona Lisa has been hit by soup by French farming activists.

    https://x.com/le_figaro/status/1751553846223028597

    Je suis un French soup farmer.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,105
    HYUFD said:

    If polls show a Unionist majority at Holyrood and Labour winning most seats in Scotland again, then polls on Scottish independence become completely irrelevant.

    The Scottish government would then not even have a majority for indyref2 at Holyrood for Westminster to ignore. You could have 99% for independence in polls but without an SNP or SNP and Green pro independence majority at Holyrood and an SNP majority of Scottish MPs, who cares?

    It's not irrelevant if nearly half of Scotland wants to become independent just because a unionist majority is in Holyrood. It's certainly a lot easier to handle, but until the number who actively want independence reduces the potential threat remains, even if in this scenario the SNP personally lost support for a time.
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    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,162
    Foxy said:

    MJW said:

    Taz said:

    Agreed on this. As someone who has never liked the SNP and still doesn't, I think the issue of Scottish independence is seperate and distinct from the politicians making the case for it. When I was growing up in Scotland I was a unionist but if I had a vote now it would probably be for independence. It would be very difficult economically in the short to medium term but I think Scotland is falling well short of where it could be as a country and needs to break free from the United Kingdom to achieve its long term potential.

    Given that it appears to be Groundhog Referendum Day on PB, Remainia is falling well short of where it could be as a country and needs to break free from Leavistan to achieve its long term potential.

    Bye bye Barnsley and Bolsover, good luck on your own.
    What’s new. Areas like this have been on their own and left to wither for decades now anyway. Treated with barely disguised contempt by politicians across all parties.

    It was a major driver of the leave vote in these areas. Economic boom post crash. What economic boom. Areas like these never enjoyed it.

    Had prosperity been spread more evenly we would have never voted leave. Still, we did, and remainers need to get over it.
    The Remanian independence argument strikes me as being the sort of argument a toddler uses: ‘if we can’t have what I want, I’m taking my toys and going home’
    In that sense, it's rather similar to Brexit.
    Both share a similar logic and destructiveness.
    Remainia is a threat to break the demos because they lost the vote
    That's nonsense. I know of no one who wants only Remania (quite a large archipelago now) to Rejoin, indeed one reason to Rejoin as a United Kingdom is to stabilise the unity of the country by resolving Scottish and Northern Irish grievances with Brexit.

    There is of course schadenfreude for steel-workers, fishermen, farmers and others who voted Brexit and now find that far from
    bettering their lives it has made their situation worse. We told you so.

    In the real world I’ve never met anyone who has suggested it either!

    But @El_Capitano did and I was responding to that
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,105
    Has to be Pope for man of the match - Hartley couldn't have won it without Pope doing the business first.

    Hopefully the team can carry this kind of belief and style through when Stokes' body just fully breaks down and he is forced to retire.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,730
    Reports of the death of Test Cricket somewhat premature?
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,560
    @Sandpit and @ThomasNashe can breathe again, knowing TSE will not be sending them to ConHome.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,233
    Yeeeeeeeeesssssssssssssssss!!!!
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,138
    28 runs; not even close.

    7-fer on debut, under huge pressure, is pretty impressive stuff.
    Two promising new young spinners, both of whom can bat, is not normal for England.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,105
    Leon said:

    Reports of the death of Test Cricket somewhat premature?

    Sadly not. As this piece notes, there's only like 3 teams of note at the moment who play significant numbers of tests. And even with them interest is down.

    Crying shame. But with some of the matches in recent years it is going out with a bang.

    https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/test-cricket-is-increasingly-a-game-of-two-levels-the-big-three-and-the-next-six-1417584
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013
    Roger said:


    Taz said:
    Dear Deardre

    About 4 years ago I stopped eating meat. The idea of eating a living and breathing animal with a brain and personality became repulsive and I wished I'd never done it. More recently the notion of a country having an army which blows up buildings and kills people relatively indiscriminately to persude them to your point of view or subjugate them in some way seemed so bizarre that I found it difficult to accept as a rational concept

    My question is this; Was Jeremy the Holy Grail all along?

    Yours etc

    Roger
    No, Jeremy is quite willing for the world's brutes to roll over free peoples, so long as they are anti-Western brutes.
This discussion has been closed.