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Elites – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,014
edited January 22 in General
Elites – politicalbetting.com

The concept of a political elite is much in vogue recently. I find it difficult to cope with the recency, because the existence of a group of people above others is older than Britain: the term “privilege” is derived from “privilegium”, a private law. The British class structure which Thatcherism was supposed to overthrow had existed for centuries, and in turn dates back to divisions between clergy, nobility, landowners, etc. We could spend a lively time talking about how this structure grew and evolved over time, with reference to later subdivisions like the professional classes. But I think that’s not relevant here.

Read the full story here

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  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,451
    edited January 13
    Polishes nails with perfect timing.

    First.

    Thanks for a great header.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,937
    A superb thread thanks. Viewcode.

    I guffawed at: "... the concept of the New 10K, sometimes stylised as the “Nu10K” like it was a 1980’s compilation album: “Now that’s what I call Corrupt Cliquism”."
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,451
    edited January 13
    Arguably on topic for self-serving elites.

    The youtube channel "Art of Law" on Judicial scepticism about the Post-Office-Serving behaviour of Post Office witnesses, even when on oath to tell the whole truth.

    Not quite as bad as Trump's Lawyers, perhaps ... but very shoddy.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0PLiBRC3aU
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    EPGEPG Posts: 6,001
    Where's the beef? Does this just mean people who manage large organisations? Isn't any political system going to have challenges for power? Does cliodynamics predict anything, or is it fantasy football territory where you design your own thought experiment and give it up when it breaks? Why does Goodwin think his fellow travellers fail to lead large organisations if their ideas are so sound and widespread?
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,319
    edited January 13

    A superb thread thanks. Viewcode.

    I guffawed at: "... the concept of the New 10K, sometimes stylised as the “Nu10K” like it was a 1980’s compilation album: “Now that’s what I call Corrupt Cliquism”."

    It’s New Upper 10,000

    So the “NU” is fortuitous.

    Yes, very good header.

    The idea of the end of the old elite was supposed to be 1911…
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    Another very good piece @viewcode
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,547
    OFF TOPIC - Weather-or-Not-You-Want-It Report

    Just trudged there & back for my morning coffee. As dawn begins to break, temperature on my humble porch = 15 degrees Fahrenheit, or -10 Celsius, or 264 Kelvin.

    Luckily we got virtually no snow in Seattle before the Big Freeze, which by the way is caused by notorious "Fraser River Outflow" itself result of gross inattention by our (allegedly) good neighbors in British Columbia.

    Thus its been worse up in Bellingham WA, hard by the BC border, where temps have been colder for days AND where the wind has exacerbated situation, both in terms of wind chill and, even worse, downed power lines leading to loss of power for some residents - brrrrrrrr!

    Here in Seattle, one compensation today is that, on my humble trek back from coffeeshop, could see the snowy Olympic Mountains to the west . . . and the snowy Cascade Mountains to the east.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,547
    MattW said:

    Arguably on topic for self-serving elites.

    The youtube channel "Art of Law" on Judicial scepticism about the Post-Office-Serving behaviour of Post Office witnesses, even when on oath to tell the whole truth.

    Not quite as bad as Trump's Lawyers, perhaps ... but very shoddy.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0PLiBRC3aU

    "Perhaps" doing HEAVY lifting.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,698
    Thanks all for the comments: I'm out-of-position and so cannot reply in depth at the moment. Please continue to comment both positively and negatively on the piece and I will address your points later tonight. Please enjoy.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,014
    FPT long dated mortgages

    In US most mortgages aren’t portable (@Malmesbury ) but instead banks get paid on refinancings.

    Fannie and Freddie take on a lot of the duration risk (@DavidL) but in any event if you hold to maturity you don’t need to mark to market

    But generally this is a solution in search of a problem. 25 year fixed rate mortgages already exist in the UK for people who want them
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,936
    EPG said:

    Where's the beef? Does this just mean people who manage large organisations? Isn't any political system going to have challenges for power? Does cliodynamics predict anything, or is it fantasy football territory where you design your own thought experiment and give it up when it breaks? Why does Goodwin think his fellow travellers fail to lead large organisations if their ideas are so sound and widespread?

    The problem is not the ideas, it is that the people administering them are often exposed as being both arrogant and incompetent - a very dangerous combination when discussing the movers and shakers of a whole country.

    If these people were answerable to anyone and willing to sufffer the consequences of their failings then the situation would be generally workable, for the very reasons you give. But they are not. They believe that their background and beliefs give them a semi-divine right to be in charge and that none of the 'proles' should be uppity enough to question that. They certainly don't think they should be held responsible for their failings until they are forced by overwhelming outrage to reluctantly acceed.

    If the system actually worked we would have a lot fewer of these scandals and a lot more of those who were responsible would be ending up behind bars.
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    RichardrRichardr Posts: 81
    "The British State currently consists of a Prime Minster and a Cabinet who take all the blame, and a network of central and local government, quangos, charities, pressure groups, support structures, third sector orgs, etc who make all the decisions."

    The PM and the Cabinet also try to take the praise when something works well, whilst blaming others when it doesn't [inflation is just a recent example, nothing to do with the PM if it rises, all,down to him when it falls].

    To my mind, at least some of the issue here is due to the over-centralization of the UK (English) state. The PM and Cabinet take all of the power, including for matters they have no chance of controlling, and the net result is that things that they should be on top of are low down the list. When we have a PM interested in potholes in streets, then there is no chance he is as interested in the major issues that he should be. As a result, many issues, from the NHS to the Post Office are inevitably run by the central bureaucracy. There is no reason why health, most transport, and many other services shouldn't be devolved from central government at least regionally to democratically elected representatives. It is how most other medium to large sized countries work.
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    viewcode said:

    Thanks all for the comments: I'm out-of-position and so cannot reply in depth at the moment. Please continue to comment both positively and negatively on the piece and I will address your points later tonight. Please enjoy.

    Ecellent piece, Viewpoint. I will comment at greater length when the Orient have finished stuffing Pompey.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,547
    edited January 13
    AP (via Seattle Times) - The ruling-party candidate strongly opposed by China wins Taiwan’s presidential election

    TAIPEI, Taiwan (AP) — Ruling-party candidate Lai Ching-te emerged victorious in Taiwan’s presidential election on Saturday and his opponents conceded, a result that will determine the trajectory of the self-ruled democracy’s relations with China over the next four years.

    China had called the poll a choice between war and peace. Beijing strongly opposes Lai, the current vice president who abandoned his medical career to pursue politics from the grassroots to the presidency.

    SSI - results according to wiki
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Taiwanese_presidential_election

    Lai Ching-te
    Democratic Progressive Party 5,586,019 40.1%

    Hou Yu-ih
    Kuomintang 4,671,021 33.5%

    Ko Wen-je
    Taiwan People's Party 3,690,466 26.5%

    Valid votes 13,947,506 99.3%
    (Total votes 14,048,310)
    Registered 19,548,531 71.9% turnout
  • Options
    CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 212
    I come here for brutal empirical analysis about the electoral landscape - not this ephemeral theory 🤷
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,554
    Another off topic. I’m at the Hill Station cafe and there’s a man there sitting with his son who looks like my mental image of @OnlyLivingBoy

    So if it’s you OLB, hello.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181

    I come here for brutal empirical analysis about the electoral landscape - not this ephemeral theory 🤷

    Just for you:

    The Tories are fucked, but Labour are still struggling to cut through in such a way we can be certain they'll get a majority.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,162
    'Elites'. Are they inevitable? If so I guess all we can aspire to is making them as merit-based as possible (like in sports). Depressing thought for an egalitarian such as myself.
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    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,409
    ydoethur said:

    I come here for brutal empirical analysis about the electoral landscape - not this ephemeral theory 🤷

    Just for you:

    The Tories are fucked, but Labour are still struggling to cut through in such a way we can be certain they'll get a majority.
    Counterpoint: Labour are struggling to cut through but the Conservatives are so fucked that it barely matters.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,124
    An interesting piece Viewcode.

    I was drawn to Goodwin's theory. Russell Group, Managerial and Liberal. That sums me up. I wouldn't get invited onto the Board of a any panel or Board, despite 50 years in business.

    Wherever I look, all roads lead to and from Tufton Street. COVID, Post Office/Jujitsu rammed full of Tories. Has anyone noticed the symmetry between Dido Harding/ John Penrose and Michael Keegan/ Gillian Keegan.

    Even in Labour Wales, the Welsh National Opera, Dwr Cymru, Natural Resources Wales, and others besides were/are manned by links to CCHQ. There was a time if your name was Nicholas Edwards, Roe-Beddow or Inkin, the invites to join even more ranks of the great and the good must have given the local postie a hernia.
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,547
    BBC - New Malden ex-postmistress aims to stand against Sir Ed Davey

    An ex-deputy postmistress from London says she will stand against Lib Dem leader Sir Ed Davey at the next general election, as he faces criticism over his role in the Post Office scandal.

    Yvonne Tracey worked at New Malden post office for more than 30 years and said Sir Ed's attitude "must be challenged".

    Sir Ed, MP for Kingston and Surbiton, initially refused to meet campaigner Alan Bates when he was a minister.

    He has now said he was "deeply misled" by Post Office executives. . . .

    A Lib Dem spokesperson told the BBC: "Ed's heart goes out to the families caught up in this scandal and his focus is on getting justice and compensation for those impacted.

    "He bitterly regrets that the Post Office was not honest with him at the time and will fully cooperate with the inquiry to get to the bottom of what went wrong."

    They added: "Ed has earned the reputation as a hardworking and tireless local MP, who helps thousands of residents, businesses and community groups every year, which has resulted in him serving the constituency for 30 years."

    A public inquiry into the Post Office affair, which was launched in 2021, resumed this week. The Post Office said it aims to get to "the truth of what went wrong".

    A spokesperson for Fujitsu, the tech company that developed the Horizon system, said the company recognised the "devastating impact on postmasters' lives and that of their families" and had "apologised for its role in their suffering".
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    Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,499
    viewcode - Since you are interested in these questions, you might want to read two American classics, C. Wright Mills' "The Power Elite", and Robert Dahl's "Who Governs", which can be read as a refutation of Mills.

    In my opinion Dahl was far more right than Mills, but has lost the political argument in many American colleges and universities.

    (Some will prefer Richard Rovere's half-Joking essay, "The American Establishment" to either book.)
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,554

    EPG said:

    Where's the beef? Does this just mean people who manage large organisations? Isn't any political system going to have challenges for power? Does cliodynamics predict anything, or is it fantasy football territory where you design your own thought experiment and give it up when it breaks? Why does Goodwin think his fellow travellers fail to lead large organisations if their ideas are so sound and widespread?

    The problem is not the ideas, it is that the people administering them are often exposed as being both arrogant and incompetent - a very dangerous combination when discussing the movers and shakers of a whole country.

    If these people were answerable to anyone and willing to sufffer the consequences of their failings then the situation would be generally workable, for the very reasons you give. But they are not. They believe that their background and beliefs give them a semi-divine right to be in charge and that none of the 'proles' should be uppity enough to question that. They certainly don't think they should be held responsible for their failings until they are forced by overwhelming outrage to reluctantly acceed.

    If the system actually worked we would have a lot fewer of these scandals and a lot more of those who were responsible would be ending up behind bars.
    I think the issue is that humans are flawed. Always have been, always will be. And they vary massively in competence, at the top of organisations as much as at the bottom.

    I know I would struggle in a lot of jobs that were outside my area of competence. When I see ministers making errors or looking crap I often think there but for the grace of god.

    This is why we need, irony alert, strong systems and governance structures so we’re not too reliant on human competence. Obviously the Horizon system isn’t the best example of this.
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,554

    BBC - New Malden ex-postmistress aims to stand against Sir Ed Davey

    An ex-deputy postmistress from London says she will stand against Lib Dem leader Sir Ed Davey at the next general election, as he faces criticism over his role in the Post Office scandal.

    Yvonne Tracey worked at New Malden post office for more than 30 years and said Sir Ed's attitude "must be challenged".

    Sir Ed, MP for Kingston and Surbiton, initially refused to meet campaigner Alan Bates when he was a minister.

    He has now said he was "deeply misled" by Post Office executives. . . .

    A Lib Dem spokesperson told the BBC: "Ed's heart goes out to the families caught up in this scandal and his focus is on getting justice and compensation for those impacted.

    "He bitterly regrets that the Post Office was not honest with him at the time and will fully cooperate with the inquiry to get to the bottom of what went wrong."

    They added: "Ed has earned the reputation as a hardworking and tireless local MP, who helps thousands of residents, businesses and community groups every year, which has resulted in him serving the constituency for 30 years."

    A public inquiry into the Post Office affair, which was launched in 2021, resumed this week. The Post Office said it aims to get to "the truth of what went wrong".

    A spokesperson for Fujitsu, the tech company that developed the Horizon system, said the company recognised the "devastating impact on postmasters' lives and that of their families" and had "apologised for its role in their suffering".

    I don’t know who advising him but that’s almost up at Priti levels of non apology apology. Come on Ed, you’re better than that.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,875

    I come here for brutal empirical analysis about the electoral landscape - not this ephemeral theory 🤷

    How is the weather is St Petersburg?
  • Options
    Every word in this headline is worse than the preceding word.

    Escort who cut off eunuch maker’s penis said it was ‘one for the bucket list’

    Extreme body modification group conducted amputations on camera for pay-per-view audience, the Old Bailey hears


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/12/gustavson-escort-eunuch-maker-bucket-list-castration/?li_source=LI&li_medium=for_you
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    On the topic of elites, apparently I am a member of the elites, says how open the elites are that they let the grandson of humble immigrants become a member.
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    Scott_xP said:

    I come here for brutal empirical analysis about the electoral landscape - not this ephemeral theory 🤷

    How is the weather is St Petersburg?
    About 18C? Oh do you don't mean the one in Florida?
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,451
    Scott_xP said:

    I come here for brutal empirical analysis about the electoral landscape - not this ephemeral theory 🤷

    How is the weather is St Petersburg?
    Like Skegness - bracing.

    But at -16C.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/498817
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,547
    TimS said:

    BBC - New Malden ex-postmistress aims to stand against Sir Ed Davey

    An ex-deputy postmistress from London says she will stand against Lib Dem leader Sir Ed Davey at the next general election, as he faces criticism over his role in the Post Office scandal.

    Yvonne Tracey worked at New Malden post office for more than 30 years and said Sir Ed's attitude "must be challenged".

    Sir Ed, MP for Kingston and Surbiton, initially refused to meet campaigner Alan Bates when he was a minister.

    He has now said he was "deeply misled" by Post Office executives. . . .

    A Lib Dem spokesperson told the BBC: "Ed's heart goes out to the families caught up in this scandal and his focus is on getting justice and compensation for those impacted.

    "He bitterly regrets that the Post Office was not honest with him at the time and will fully cooperate with the inquiry to get to the bottom of what went wrong."

    They added: "Ed has earned the reputation as a hardworking and tireless local MP, who helps thousands of residents, businesses and community groups every year, which has resulted in him serving the constituency for 30 years."

    A public inquiry into the Post Office affair, which was launched in 2021, resumed this week. The Post Office said it aims to get to "the truth of what went wrong".

    A spokesperson for Fujitsu, the tech company that developed the Horizon system, said the company recognised the "devastating impact on postmasters' lives and that of their families" and had "apologised for its role in their suffering".

    I don’t know who advising him but that’s almost up at Priti levels of non apology apology. Come on Ed, you’re better than that.
    What I noted was that BS uttered by "A Lib Dem spokesman" is even WORSE that BS uttered by "a spokesman for Fujitsu"!!!

    At least indicates they are NOT same person. Perhaps?
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    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,409
    edited January 13
    TimS said:

    EPG said:

    Where's the beef? Does this just mean people who manage large organisations? Isn't any political system going to have challenges for power? Does cliodynamics predict anything, or is it fantasy football territory where you design your own thought experiment and give it up when it breaks? Why does Goodwin think his fellow travellers fail to lead large organisations if their ideas are so sound and widespread?

    The problem is not the ideas, it is that the people administering them are often exposed as being both arrogant and incompetent - a very dangerous combination when discussing the movers and shakers of a whole country.

    If these people were answerable to anyone and willing to sufffer the consequences of their failings then the situation would be generally workable, for the very reasons you give. But they are not. They believe that their background and beliefs give them a semi-divine right to be in charge and that none of the 'proles' should be uppity enough to question that. They certainly don't think they should be held responsible for their failings until they are forced by overwhelming outrage to reluctantly acceed.

    If the system actually worked we would have a lot fewer of these scandals and a lot more of those who were responsible would be ending up behind bars.
    I think the issue is that humans are flawed. Always have been, always will be. And they vary massively in competence, at the top of organisations as much as at the bottom.

    I know I would struggle in a lot of jobs that were outside my area of competence. When I see ministers making errors or looking crap I often think there but for the grace of god.

    This is why we need, irony alert, strong systems and governance structures so we’re not too reliant on human competence. Obviously the Horizon system isn’t the best example of this.
    I think the morals are "don't have a single point of failure" and "be realistic about what a single person or system can achieve". Thank goodness the Government Mission Control with a giant statue of Dominic Cummings never happened;


  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,117

    BBC - New Malden ex-postmistress aims to stand against Sir Ed Davey

    An ex-deputy postmistress from London says she will stand against Lib Dem leader Sir Ed Davey at the next general election, as he faces criticism over his role in the Post Office scandal.

    Yvonne Tracey worked at New Malden post office for more than 30 years and said Sir Ed's attitude "must be challenged".

    Sir Ed, MP for Kingston and Surbiton, initially refused to meet campaigner Alan Bates when he was a minister.

    He has now said he was "deeply misled" by Post Office executives. . . .

    A Lib Dem spokesperson told the BBC: "Ed's heart goes out to the families caught up in this scandal and his focus is on getting justice and compensation for those impacted.

    "He bitterly regrets that the Post Office was not honest with him at the time and will fully cooperate with the inquiry to get to the bottom of what went wrong."

    They added: "Ed has earned the reputation as a hardworking and tireless local MP, who helps thousands of residents, businesses and community groups every year, which has resulted in him serving the constituency for 30 years."

    A public inquiry into the Post Office affair, which was launched in 2021, resumed this week. The Post Office said it aims to get to "the truth of what went wrong".

    A spokesperson for Fujitsu, the tech company that developed the Horizon system, said the company recognised the "devastating impact on postmasters' lives and that of their families" and had "apologised for its role in their suffering".

    This does rather spoil the Lib Dem narrative of "he doesn't need to apologise for his role in this, because it's just mudslinging by the right-wing press", as articulated on Lib Dem Voice:
    https://www.libdemvoice.org/should-ed-davey-apologise-for-his-role-in-the-horizon-scandal-74519.html

    The comments there (from Lib Dems) seem to be fairly evenly split between "he has nothing to apologise for" and "of course he should apologise".
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,554

    Scott_xP said:

    I come here for brutal empirical analysis about the electoral landscape - not this ephemeral theory 🤷

    How is the weather is St Petersburg?
    About 18C? Oh do you don't mean the one in Florida?
    I think we established thanks to a particularly insightful Dura Ace post that most of our pro-Russian trolls are African. It makes a lot more sense given much of the language and sentence construction. Not enough dropping of definite articles for true Russians.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,875
    ...
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,547
    Chris said:

    BBC - New Malden ex-postmistress aims to stand against Sir Ed Davey

    An ex-deputy postmistress from London says she will stand against Lib Dem leader Sir Ed Davey at the next general election, as he faces criticism over his role in the Post Office scandal.

    Yvonne Tracey worked at New Malden post office for more than 30 years and said Sir Ed's attitude "must be challenged".

    Sir Ed, MP for Kingston and Surbiton, initially refused to meet campaigner Alan Bates when he was a minister.

    He has now said he was "deeply misled" by Post Office executives. . . .

    A Lib Dem spokesperson told the BBC: "Ed's heart goes out to the families caught up in this scandal and his focus is on getting justice and compensation for those impacted.

    "He bitterly regrets that the Post Office was not honest with him at the time and will fully cooperate with the inquiry to get to the bottom of what went wrong."

    They added: "Ed has earned the reputation as a hardworking and tireless local MP, who helps thousands of residents, businesses and community groups every year, which has resulted in him serving the constituency for 30 years."

    A public inquiry into the Post Office affair, which was launched in 2021, resumed this week. The Post Office said it aims to get to "the truth of what went wrong".

    A spokesperson for Fujitsu, the tech company that developed the Horizon system, said the company recognised the "devastating impact on postmasters' lives and that of their families" and had "apologised for its role in their suffering".

    This does rather spoil the Lib Dem narrative of "he doesn't need to apologise for his role in this, because it's just mudslinging by the right-wing press", as articulated on Lib Dem Voice:
    https://www.libdemvoice.org/should-ed-davey-apologise-for-his-role-in-the-horizon-scandal-74519.html

    The comments there (from Lib Dems) seem to be fairly evenly split between "he has nothing to apologise for" and "of course he should apologise".
    Isn't LD split on ED (the MP not the Boner problem) really between, "he has nothing to apologise for" and "time for him to walk the plank"?

    The latter being Mike Smithson's sage advice IIRC.
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    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    We haven’t had an Opinion Swingback adjusted poll since December 15th. Can Tories improve on 27%? And Labour improve on 40%? Considering it’s a swingback poll with about 2 off Labour and two on Con, Lab should move to at least 42% today and Tories stay on 27 and not probably not improve from adjusted low of 27, to fit neatly with picture of other polls since Christmas.

    I’ll predict Lab 43 and Con 27, which actually is a huge 16% margin for a swingback poll from seasoned firm.
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    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,532

    Richardr said:

    "The British State currently consists of a Prime Minster and a Cabinet who take all the blame, and a network of central and local government, quangos, charities, pressure groups, support structures, third sector orgs, etc who make all the decisions."

    The PM and the Cabinet also try to take the praise when something works well, whilst blaming others when it doesn't [inflation is just a recent example, nothing to do with the PM if it rises, all,down to him when it falls].

    To my mind, at least some of the issue here is due to the over-centralization of the UK (English) state. The PM and Cabinet take all of the power, including for matters they have no chance of controlling, and the net result is that things that they should be on top of are low down the list. When we have a PM interested in potholes in streets, then there is no chance he is as interested in the major issues that he should be. As a result, many issues, from the NHS to the Post Office are inevitably run by the central bureaucracy. There is no reason why health, most transport, and many other services shouldn't be devolved from central government at least regionally to democratically elected representatives. It is how most other medium to large sized countries work.

    And if anything, the long run trend is to more centralisation. A lot of local government is now delivering what central government demands from an income central government constrains and praying that the latter is enough to do the former. Or the gutting of professional local media, whether that's papers, TV or radio. Or the reduced autonomy for the local bank manager, headteacher et cetera. Or the decay of theatres in second tier and below cities.

    We chose to do this to ourselves, either because we thought it would be cheaper and more efficient, or because of fear of a postcode lottery, or because we don't want more politicians. And maybe it is better, but it does put power in fewer hands.
    We did it to ourselves because those who rightly decry the Nanny State principle failed to notice they were enacting exactly that. Thatcher, for all that she did a lot of good things, had a complete blind spot about letting people (or at least middle class people) suffer the consequences of their actions. She looked at examples of bad local Government and decided that people should be protected from their own electoral choices and gtherefore the only safe way to do that was to centralise as much as possible.

    Either you treat people like adults - including allowing them to make bad choices and suffer the consequences - or you treat them like big kids and make sure their choices are only symbolic.

    We need genuine decentralisation and to trust people to make decisions for themselves, for better or worse.
    Yes, Thatcher's abolition of the GLC was a vindictive, anti-democratic act of political spite. She didn't like the way Londoners voted, so she abolished it.
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    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,409

    Richardr said:

    "The British State currently consists of a Prime Minster and a Cabinet who take all the blame, and a network of central and local government, quangos, charities, pressure groups, support structures, third sector orgs, etc who make all the decisions."

    The PM and the Cabinet also try to take the praise when something works well, whilst blaming others when it doesn't [inflation is just a recent example, nothing to do with the PM if it rises, all,down to him when it falls].

    To my mind, at least some of the issue here is due to the over-centralization of the UK (English) state. The PM and Cabinet take all of the power, including for matters they have no chance of controlling, and the net result is that things that they should be on top of are low down the list. When we have a PM interested in potholes in streets, then there is no chance he is as interested in the major issues that he should be. As a result, many issues, from the NHS to the Post Office are inevitably run by the central bureaucracy. There is no reason why health, most transport, and many other services shouldn't be devolved from central government at least regionally to democratically elected representatives. It is how most other medium to large sized countries work.

    And if anything, the long run trend is to more centralisation. A lot of local government is now delivering what central government demands from an income central government constrains and praying that the latter is enough to do the former. Or the gutting of professional local media, whether that's papers, TV or radio. Or the reduced autonomy for the local bank manager, headteacher et cetera. Or the decay of theatres in second tier and below cities.

    We chose to do this to ourselves, either because we thought it would be cheaper and more efficient, or because of fear of a postcode lottery, or because we don't want more politicians. And maybe it is better, but it does put power in fewer hands.
    We did it to ourselves because those who rightly decry the Nanny State principle failed to notice they were enacting exactly that. Thatcher, for all that she did a lot of good things, had a complete blind spot about letting people (or at least middle class people) suffer the consequences of their actions. She looked at examples of bad local Government and decided that people should be protected from their own electoral choices and gtherefore the only safe way to do that was to centralise as much as possible.

    Either you treat people like adults - including allowing them to make bad choices and suffer the consequences - or you treat them like big kids and make sure their choices are only symbolic.

    We need genuine decentralisation and to trust people to make decisions for themselves, for better or worse.
    Yes, Thatcher's abolition of the GLC was a vindictive, anti-democratic act of political spite. She didn't like the way Londoners voted, so she abolished it.
    Not just the GLC. She centralised powers away from local Government right across the country
    What would Alderman Roberts have made of it?

    How does one undertake one's civic duty if there's no civitas to undertake it in?
  • Options
    ClippPClippP Posts: 1,684
    Chris said:

    BBC - New Malden ex-postmistress aims to stand against Sir Ed Davey

    An ex-deputy postmistress from London says she will stand against Lib Dem leader Sir Ed Davey at the next general election, as he faces criticism over his role in the Post Office scandal.

    Yvonne Tracey worked at New Malden post office for more than 30 years and said Sir Ed's attitude "must be challenged".

    Sir Ed, MP for Kingston and Surbiton, initially refused to meet campaigner Alan Bates when he was a minister.

    He has now said he was "deeply misled" by Post Office executives. . . .

    A Lib Dem spokesperson told the BBC: "Ed's heart goes out to the families caught up in this scandal and his focus is on getting justice and compensation for those impacted.

    "He bitterly regrets that the Post Office was not honest with him at the time and will fully cooperate with the inquiry to get to the bottom of what went wrong."

    They added: "Ed has earned the reputation as a hardworking and tireless local MP, who helps thousands of residents, businesses and community groups every year, which has resulted in him serving the constituency for 30 years."

    A public inquiry into the Post Office affair, which was launched in 2021, resumed this week. The Post Office said it aims to get to "the truth of what went wrong".

    A spokesperson for Fujitsu, the tech company that developed the Horizon system, said the company recognised the "devastating impact on postmasters' lives and that of their families" and had "apologised for its role in their suffering".

    This does rather spoil the Lib Dem narrative of "he doesn't need to apologise for his role in this, because it's just mudslinging by the right-wing press", as articulated on Lib Dem Voice:
    https://www.libdemvoice.org/should-ed-davey-apologise-for-his-role-in-the-horizon-scandal-74519.html

    The comments there (from Lib Dems) seem to be fairly evenly split between "he has nothing to apologise for" and "of course he should apologise".
    Is this woman from New Malden not just another Tory Party troll trying to shift all the blame away from the Conservatives and onto the Lib Dems? I suspect she must be.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,096

    EPG said:

    Where's the beef? Does this just mean people who manage large organisations? Isn't any political system going to have challenges for power? Does cliodynamics predict anything, or is it fantasy football territory where you design your own thought experiment and give it up when it breaks? Why does Goodwin think his fellow travellers fail to lead large organisations if their ideas are so sound and widespread?

    The problem is not the ideas, it is that the people administering them are often exposed as being both arrogant and incompetent - a very dangerous combination when discussing the movers and shakers of a whole country.

    If these people were answerable to anyone and willing to sufffer the consequences of their failings then the situation would be generally workable, for the very reasons you give. But they are not. They believe that their background and beliefs give them a semi-divine right to be in charge and that none of the 'proles' should be uppity enough to question that. They certainly don't think they should be held responsible for their failings until they are forced by overwhelming outrage to reluctantly acceed.

    If the system actually worked we would have a lot fewer of these scandals and a lot more of those who were responsible would be ending up behind bars.
    These people provide a perfect support network for each other. If one falls, they are sure to be picked up by the network.

    There is no concept of failure leading to exclusion from the elite.
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,117

    Chris said:

    BBC - New Malden ex-postmistress aims to stand against Sir Ed Davey

    An ex-deputy postmistress from London says she will stand against Lib Dem leader Sir Ed Davey at the next general election, as he faces criticism over his role in the Post Office scandal.

    Yvonne Tracey worked at New Malden post office for more than 30 years and said Sir Ed's attitude "must be challenged".

    Sir Ed, MP for Kingston and Surbiton, initially refused to meet campaigner Alan Bates when he was a minister.

    He has now said he was "deeply misled" by Post Office executives. . . .

    A Lib Dem spokesperson told the BBC: "Ed's heart goes out to the families caught up in this scandal and his focus is on getting justice and compensation for those impacted.

    "He bitterly regrets that the Post Office was not honest with him at the time and will fully cooperate with the inquiry to get to the bottom of what went wrong."

    They added: "Ed has earned the reputation as a hardworking and tireless local MP, who helps thousands of residents, businesses and community groups every year, which has resulted in him serving the constituency for 30 years."

    A public inquiry into the Post Office affair, which was launched in 2021, resumed this week. The Post Office said it aims to get to "the truth of what went wrong".

    A spokesperson for Fujitsu, the tech company that developed the Horizon system, said the company recognised the "devastating impact on postmasters' lives and that of their families" and had "apologised for its role in their suffering".

    This does rather spoil the Lib Dem narrative of "he doesn't need to apologise for his role in this, because it's just mudslinging by the right-wing press", as articulated on Lib Dem Voice:
    https://www.libdemvoice.org/should-ed-davey-apologise-for-his-role-in-the-horizon-scandal-74519.html

    The comments there (from Lib Dems) seem to be fairly evenly split between "he has nothing to apologise for" and "of course he should apologise".
    Isn't LD split on ED (the MP not the Boner problem) really between, "he has nothing to apologise for" and "time for him to walk the plank"?

    The latter being Mike Smithson's sage advice IIRC.
    I don't know. He seems pretty uninspiring as a party leader, but I've thought that about all the Lib Dem party leaders since Kennedy. (Farron being both uninspiring and illberal.)
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,243
    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    I love finding webpages that haven't been updated for many years, like this one about Green Park tube station.

    https://mindspace.fi/mind/retro/lul/greenpark/greenparkstation.html

    Some of the pictures on this joker's list date from 2008 (or even 2007 in a few cases!), but I hear he's updated most of the more interesting rebuilding of (eg.) station buildings:

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Sunil060902
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,124

    Every word in this headline is worse than the preceding word.

    Escort who cut off eunuch maker’s penis said it was ‘one for the bucket list’

    Extreme body modification group conducted amputations on camera for pay-per-view audience, the Old Bailey hears


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/12/gustavson-escort-eunuch-maker-bucket-list-castration/?li_source=LI&li_medium=for_you

    I can't get beyond the paywall, but being as its the Telegraph, I think we all know the question it begs.

    Starmer fans please explain.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,875
    @SkyNews

    A passenger plane has returned to its departure airport in Japan after a crack was found on the cockpit window of the Boeing 737-800 aircraft mid-air.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,547
    ClippP said:

    Chris said:

    BBC - New Malden ex-postmistress aims to stand against Sir Ed Davey

    An ex-deputy postmistress from London says she will stand against Lib Dem leader Sir Ed Davey at the next general election, as he faces criticism over his role in the Post Office scandal.

    Yvonne Tracey worked at New Malden post office for more than 30 years and said Sir Ed's attitude "must be challenged".

    Sir Ed, MP for Kingston and Surbiton, initially refused to meet campaigner Alan Bates when he was a minister.

    He has now said he was "deeply misled" by Post Office executives. . . .

    A Lib Dem spokesperson told the BBC: "Ed's heart goes out to the families caught up in this scandal and his focus is on getting justice and compensation for those impacted.

    "He bitterly regrets that the Post Office was not honest with him at the time and will fully cooperate with the inquiry to get to the bottom of what went wrong."

    They added: "Ed has earned the reputation as a hardworking and tireless local MP, who helps thousands of residents, businesses and community groups every year, which has resulted in him serving the constituency for 30 years."

    A public inquiry into the Post Office affair, which was launched in 2021, resumed this week. The Post Office said it aims to get to "the truth of what went wrong".

    A spokesperson for Fujitsu, the tech company that developed the Horizon system, said the company recognised the "devastating impact on postmasters' lives and that of their families" and had "apologised for its role in their suffering".

    This does rather spoil the Lib Dem narrative of "he doesn't need to apologise for his role in this, because it's just mudslinging by the right-wing press", as articulated on Lib Dem Voice:
    https://www.libdemvoice.org/should-ed-davey-apologise-for-his-role-in-the-horizon-scandal-74519.html

    The comments there (from Lib Dems) seem to be fairly evenly split between "he has nothing to apologise for" and "of course he should apologise".
    Is this woman from New Malden not just another Tory Party troll trying to shift all the blame away from the Conservatives and onto the Lib Dems? I suspect she must be.
    Why do you suspect that? Sounds like something that crap "Lib Dem spokesman" will be spouting.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,243

    Every word in this headline is worse than the preceding word.

    Escort who cut off eunuch maker’s penis said it was ‘one for the bucket list’

    Extreme body modification group conducted amputations on camera for pay-per-view audience, the Old Bailey hears


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/12/gustavson-escort-eunuch-maker-bucket-list-castration/?li_source=LI&li_medium=for_you

    I can't get beyond the paywall, but being as its the Telegraph, I think we all know the question it begs.

    Starmer fans please explain.
    Keep Calmer... ouch!!
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,183
    edited January 13
    TimS said:

    BBC - New Malden ex-postmistress aims to stand against Sir Ed Davey

    An ex-deputy postmistress from London says she will stand against Lib Dem leader Sir Ed Davey at the next general election, as he faces criticism over his role in the Post Office scandal.

    Yvonne Tracey worked at New Malden post office for more than 30 years and said Sir Ed's attitude "must be challenged".

    Sir Ed, MP for Kingston and Surbiton, initially refused to meet campaigner Alan Bates when he was a minister.

    He has now said he was "deeply misled" by Post Office executives. . . .

    A Lib Dem spokesperson told the BBC: "Ed's heart goes out to the families caught up in this scandal and his focus is on getting justice and compensation for those impacted.

    "He bitterly regrets that the Post Office was not honest with him at the time and will fully cooperate with the inquiry to get to the bottom of what went wrong."

    They added: "Ed has earned the reputation as a hardworking and tireless local MP, who helps thousands of residents, businesses and community groups every year, which has resulted in him serving the constituency for 30 years."

    A public inquiry into the Post Office affair, which was launched in 2021, resumed this week. The Post Office said it aims to get to "the truth of what went wrong".

    A spokesperson for Fujitsu, the tech company that developed the Horizon system, said the company recognised the "devastating impact on postmasters' lives and that of their families" and had "apologised for its role in their suffering".

    I don’t know who advising him but that’s almost up at Priti levels of non apology apology. Come on Ed, you’re better than that.
    Has he actually provided any details about:
    - who lied to him
    - when
    - what the lies were
    - when he realised he had been lied to
    - what he did when he realised he was being or had been lied to?

    Is he going to provide such details?

    Otherwise it's just another "I'm a gullible moron so you can't blame me" defence?

    And if he was lied to, did he perhaps make it easy for civil servants to do this to him? He might want to reflect on that.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    Foxy said:

    If we take a few contemporaneous examples:

    Rishi Sunak: respectable middle class parents, but can a provincial GP and pharmacist really be considered elite?

    Keir Starmer: Father a Surrey toolmaker, mother a nurse. Once again respectable middle class but hardly elite.

    To move away from politics, perhaps Paula Vennells? Manchester Grammar School, Bradford University then management trainee at Unilever. Not sure what her parents did, but being born in a coalfield town now incorporated into Manchester doesn't seem elite, so mich as middle class.

    Perhaps the CEO of the National theatre? Indhi Rabinsingham, born in Sheffield to Sinhalese Tamil immigrant parents. Doesn't sound particularly elite.

    Or the CEO of the National Gallery? Gabriele Finaldi brought up in Barnet and Catford, to a Neapolitan father and Anglo-Polish mother. Doesn't really whiff of elite privilege doesn't it?

    How about the CEO of the NHS? Amanda Pritchard was Comprehensive schooled in Somerset, daughter of an Anglican priest who later became a Bishop.

    Just to pick a few fairly randomly.

    So none from an elite background, but all elite now. All from middle class backgrounds but none obviously benefiting from insider connections.

    So is there really a mysterious elite of mutual benefit? Or just a bunch of people with successful careers from a wide variety of middle class backgrounds?

    It seems we are define elite as the people in charge, a meaningless circular definition.



    Paula Vennells was at Manchester Grammar? Are you sure? Given it's boys only that seems unlikely.
  • Options
    Nice to hear the Old Elite informing us that all of the current problems are nothing to do with their own manifest incapacities but rather are down to a mystical 'new elite'. Mostly the same folk that used to blame Brussels for their own failings until they managed to shoot that fox.

    Nearly everyone parroting this BS is either from the old elite or were bought and paid for by said elite long ago. It would be tragic if it was not quite so pathetic.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,554

    ClippP said:

    Chris said:

    BBC - New Malden ex-postmistress aims to stand against Sir Ed Davey

    An ex-deputy postmistress from London says she will stand against Lib Dem leader Sir Ed Davey at the next general election, as he faces criticism over his role in the Post Office scandal.

    Yvonne Tracey worked at New Malden post office for more than 30 years and said Sir Ed's attitude "must be challenged".

    Sir Ed, MP for Kingston and Surbiton, initially refused to meet campaigner Alan Bates when he was a minister.

    He has now said he was "deeply misled" by Post Office executives. . . .

    A Lib Dem spokesperson told the BBC: "Ed's heart goes out to the families caught up in this scandal and his focus is on getting justice and compensation for those impacted.

    "He bitterly regrets that the Post Office was not honest with him at the time and will fully cooperate with the inquiry to get to the bottom of what went wrong."

    They added: "Ed has earned the reputation as a hardworking and tireless local MP, who helps thousands of residents, businesses and community groups every year, which has resulted in him serving the constituency for 30 years."

    A public inquiry into the Post Office affair, which was launched in 2021, resumed this week. The Post Office said it aims to get to "the truth of what went wrong".

    A spokesperson for Fujitsu, the tech company that developed the Horizon system, said the company recognised the "devastating impact on postmasters' lives and that of their families" and had "apologised for its role in their suffering".

    This does rather spoil the Lib Dem narrative of "he doesn't need to apologise for his role in this, because it's just mudslinging by the right-wing press", as articulated on Lib Dem Voice:
    https://www.libdemvoice.org/should-ed-davey-apologise-for-his-role-in-the-horizon-scandal-74519.html

    The comments there (from Lib Dems) seem to be fairly evenly split between "he has nothing to apologise for" and "of course he should apologise".
    Is this woman from New Malden not just another Tory Party troll trying to shift all the blame away from the Conservatives and onto the Lib Dems? I suspect she must be.
    Why do you suspect that? Sounds like something that crap "Lib Dem spokesman" will be spouting.
    She’s not a Tory. She is an independent councillor and has been for years based on her Twitter profile. She’s spent most of the last few years railing against the Lib Dem council so she’s certainly politically anti-Lib Dem but not a conservative, at least not one with a capital C.

    Oddly she didn’t seem to post anything about the PO scandal until this month.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,547
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    If we take a few contemporaneous examples:

    Rishi Sunak: respectable middle class parents, but can a provincial GP and pharmacist really be considered elite?

    Keir Starmer: Father a Surrey toolmaker, mother a nurse. Once again respectable middle class but hardly elite.

    To move away from politics, perhaps Paula Vennells? Manchester Grammar School, Bradford University then management trainee at Unilever. Not sure what her parents did, but being born in a coalfield town now incorporated into Manchester doesn't seem elite, so mich as middle class.

    Perhaps the CEO of the National theatre? Indhi Rabinsingham, born in Sheffield to Sinhalese Tamil immigrant parents. Doesn't sound particularly elite.

    Or the CEO of the National Gallery? Gabriele Finaldi brought up in Barnet and Catford, to a Neapolitan father and Anglo-Polish mother. Doesn't really whiff of elite privilege doesn't it?

    How about the CEO of the NHS? Amanda Pritchard was Comprehensive schooled in Somerset, daughter of an Anglican priest who later became a Bishop.

    Just to pick a few fairly randomly.

    So none from an elite background, but all elite now. All from middle class backgrounds but none obviously benefiting from insider connections.

    So is there really a mysterious elite of mutual benefit? Or just a bunch of people with successful careers from a wide variety of middle class backgrounds?

    It seems we are define elite as the people in charge, a meaningless circular definition.



    Paula Vennells was at Manchester Grammar? Are you sure? Given it's boys only that seems unlikely.
    According to wiki, PV "was educated at the Manchester High School for Girls, an all-girls private school in Manchester."
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,554

    Nice to hear the Old Elite informing us that all of the current problems are nothing to do with their own manifest incapacities but rather are down to a mystical 'new elite'. Mostly the same folk that used to blame Brussels for their own failings until they managed to shoot that fox.

    Nearly everyone parroting this BS is either from the old elite or were bought and paid for by said elite long ago. It would be tragic if it was not quite so pathetic.

    I’ve always felt that, just as most wars or revolutions pitch one elite against another, Brexit was a battle between two parts of the governing elite.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    If we take a few contemporaneous examples:

    Rishi Sunak: respectable middle class parents, but can a provincial GP and pharmacist really be considered elite?

    Keir Starmer: Father a Surrey toolmaker, mother a nurse. Once again respectable middle class but hardly elite.

    To move away from politics, perhaps Paula Vennells? Manchester Grammar School, Bradford University then management trainee at Unilever. Not sure what her parents did, but being born in a coalfield town now incorporated into Manchester doesn't seem elite, so mich as middle class.

    Perhaps the CEO of the National theatre? Indhi Rabinsingham, born in Sheffield to Sinhalese Tamil immigrant parents. Doesn't sound particularly elite.

    Or the CEO of the National Gallery? Gabriele Finaldi brought up in Barnet and Catford, to a Neapolitan father and Anglo-Polish mother. Doesn't really whiff of elite privilege doesn't it?

    How about the CEO of the NHS? Amanda Pritchard was Comprehensive schooled in Somerset, daughter of an Anglican priest who later became a Bishop.

    Just to pick a few fairly randomly.

    So none from an elite background, but all elite now. All from middle class backgrounds but none obviously benefiting from insider connections.

    So is there really a mysterious elite of mutual benefit? Or just a bunch of people with successful careers from a wide variety of middle class backgrounds?

    It seems we are define elite as the people in charge, a meaningless circular definition.



    Paula Vennells was at Manchester Grammar? Are you sure? Given it's boys only that seems unlikely.
    According to wiki, PV "was educated at the Manchester High School for Girls, an all-girls private school in Manchester."
    Then she's definitely from the elite.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,124
    edited January 13
    Scott_xP said:

    @SkyNews

    A passenger plane has returned to its departure airport in Japan after a crack was found on the cockpit window of the Boeing 737-800 aircraft mid-air.

    When I used to fly in the 80s I was always reassured when the plane was a Boeing and not a TriStar or a DC10.

    These days the first thing I look for is the safety card. If it states A310, A321 for example, I am good to go. This happened on Delta last month. Blessed relief that the doors are unlikely to shut fast or fall off.On a later flight on BA and I was scratching my head, which is the dodgy one, 737 or 777?
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,451

    Every word in this headline is worse than the preceding word.

    Escort who cut off eunuch maker’s penis said it was ‘one for the bucket list’

    Extreme body modification group conducted amputations on camera for pay-per-view audience, the Old Bailey hears


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/12/gustavson-escort-eunuch-maker-bucket-list-castration/?li_source=LI&li_medium=for_you

    I can't get beyond the paywall, but being as its the Telegraph, I think we all know the question it begs.

    Starmer fans please explain.
    Keep Calmer... ouch!!
    https://archive.ph/D42zB
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,952
    edited January 13
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    If we take a few contemporaneous examples:

    Rishi Sunak: respectable middle class parents, but can a provincial GP and pharmacist really be considered elite?

    Keir Starmer: Father a Surrey toolmaker, mother a nurse. Once again respectable middle class but hardly elite.

    To move away from politics, perhaps Paula Vennells? Manchester Grammar School, Bradford University then management trainee at Unilever. Not sure what her parents did, but being born in a coalfield town now incorporated into Manchester doesn't seem elite, so mich as middle class.

    Perhaps the CEO of the National theatre? Indhi Rabinsingham, born in Sheffield to Sinhalese Tamil immigrant parents. Doesn't sound particularly elite.

    Or the CEO of the National Gallery? Gabriele Finaldi brought up in Barnet and Catford, to a Neapolitan father and Anglo-Polish mother. Doesn't really whiff of elite privilege doesn't it?

    How about the CEO of the NHS? Amanda Pritchard was Comprehensive schooled in Somerset, daughter of an Anglican priest who later became a Bishop.

    Just to pick a few fairly randomly.

    So none from an elite background, but all elite now. All from middle class backgrounds but none obviously benefiting from insider connections.

    So is there really a mysterious elite of mutual benefit? Or just a bunch of people with successful careers from a wide variety of middle class backgrounds?

    It seems we are define elite as the people in charge, a meaningless circular definition.



    Paula Vennells was at Manchester Grammar? Are you sure? Given it's boys only that seems unlikely.
    Manchester High School for Girls.
    Other Old Girls include the Pankhursts, Emma Barnett, Judy Finnegan, Louise Ellman and the woman who played Emily Bishop.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,578
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    If we take a few contemporaneous examples:

    Rishi Sunak: respectable middle class parents, but can a provincial GP and pharmacist really be considered elite?

    Keir Starmer: Father a Surrey toolmaker, mother a nurse. Once again respectable middle class but hardly elite.

    To move away from politics, perhaps Paula Vennells? Manchester Grammar School, Bradford University then management trainee at Unilever. Not sure what her parents did, but being born in a coalfield town now incorporated into Manchester doesn't seem elite, so mich as middle class.

    Perhaps the CEO of the National theatre? Indhi Rabinsingham, born in Sheffield to Sinhalese Tamil immigrant parents. Doesn't sound particularly elite.

    Or the CEO of the National Gallery? Gabriele Finaldi brought up in Barnet and Catford, to a Neapolitan father and Anglo-Polish mother. Doesn't really whiff of elite privilege doesn't it?

    How about the CEO of the NHS? Amanda Pritchard was Comprehensive schooled in Somerset, daughter of an Anglican priest who later became a Bishop.

    Just to pick a few fairly randomly.

    So none from an elite background, but all elite now. All from middle class backgrounds but none obviously benefiting from insider connections.

    So is there really a mysterious elite of mutual benefit? Or just a bunch of people with successful careers from a wide variety of middle class backgrounds?

    It seems we are define elite as the people in charge, a meaningless circular definition.



    Paula Vennells was at Manchester Grammar? Are you sure? Given it's boys only that seems unlikely.
    Sorry, Manchester High School for Girls. It doesn't really invalidate my point though.

    If you define elite as anyone ambitious who had a successful post University career then it is a pretty useless concept.

    If you define it more narrowly as the Notting Hill Set or friends of the Spectator editor then you might have a point, but they have only fairly narrow bounds of elite privilege.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    edited January 13
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    If we take a few contemporaneous examples:

    Rishi Sunak: respectable middle class parents, but can a provincial GP and pharmacist really be considered elite?

    Keir Starmer: Father a Surrey toolmaker, mother a nurse. Once again respectable middle class but hardly elite.

    To move away from politics, perhaps Paula Vennells? Manchester Grammar School, Bradford University then management trainee at Unilever. Not sure what her parents did, but being born in a coalfield town now incorporated into Manchester doesn't seem elite, so mich as middle class.

    Perhaps the CEO of the National theatre? Indhi Rabinsingham, born in Sheffield to Sinhalese Tamil immigrant parents. Doesn't sound particularly elite.

    Or the CEO of the National Gallery? Gabriele Finaldi brought up in Barnet and Catford, to a Neapolitan father and Anglo-Polish mother. Doesn't really whiff of elite privilege doesn't it?

    How about the CEO of the NHS? Amanda Pritchard was Comprehensive schooled in Somerset, daughter of an Anglican priest who later became a Bishop.

    Just to pick a few fairly randomly.

    So none from an elite background, but all elite now. All from middle class backgrounds but none obviously benefiting from insider connections.

    So is there really a mysterious elite of mutual benefit? Or just a bunch of people with successful careers from a wide variety of middle class backgrounds?

    It seems we are define elite as the people in charge, a meaningless circular definition.



    Paula Vennells was at Manchester Grammar? Are you sure? Given it's boys only that seems unlikely.
    Sorry, Manchester High School for Girls. It doesn't really invalidate my point though.

    If you define elite as anyone ambitious who had a successful post University career then it is a pretty useless concept.

    If you define it more narrowly as the Notting Hill Set or friends of the Spectator editor then you might have a point, but they have only fairly narrow bounds of elite privilege.
    I think it might more usefully be argued that it's anyone who got into a 'top' uni and had a successful career despite never showing the slightest sign of basic competence.

    Many of them did indeed go to private school. Indeed, some of these schools must be astonishingly good at getting teenagers through exams, judging by the results, but unfortunately they don't seem to have thought critical thinking, intellectual curiosity or personal humility en route.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,554
    Cyclefree said:

    TimS said:

    BBC - New Malden ex-postmistress aims to stand against Sir Ed Davey

    An ex-deputy postmistress from London says she will stand against Lib Dem leader Sir Ed Davey at the next general election, as he faces criticism over his role in the Post Office scandal.

    Yvonne Tracey worked at New Malden post office for more than 30 years and said Sir Ed's attitude "must be challenged".

    Sir Ed, MP for Kingston and Surbiton, initially refused to meet campaigner Alan Bates when he was a minister.

    He has now said he was "deeply misled" by Post Office executives. . . .

    A Lib Dem spokesperson told the BBC: "Ed's heart goes out to the families caught up in this scandal and his focus is on getting justice and compensation for those impacted.

    "He bitterly regrets that the Post Office was not honest with him at the time and will fully cooperate with the inquiry to get to the bottom of what went wrong."

    They added: "Ed has earned the reputation as a hardworking and tireless local MP, who helps thousands of residents, businesses and community groups every year, which has resulted in him serving the constituency for 30 years."

    A public inquiry into the Post Office affair, which was launched in 2021, resumed this week. The Post Office said it aims to get to "the truth of what went wrong".

    A spokesperson for Fujitsu, the tech company that developed the Horizon system, said the company recognised the "devastating impact on postmasters' lives and that of their families" and had "apologised for its role in their suffering".

    I don’t know who advising him but that’s almost up at Priti levels of non apology apology. Come on Ed, you’re better than that.
    Has he actually provided any details about:
    - who lied to him
    - when
    - what the lies were
    - when he realised he had been lied to
    - what he did when he realised he was being or had been lied to?

    Is he going to provide such details?

    Otherwise it's just another "I'm a gullible moron so you can't blame me" defence?

    And if he was lied to, did he perhaps make it easy for civil servants to do this to him? He might want to reflect on that.
    His only get out now I think is a really full and frank disclosure, exactly as you suggest above. Otherwise he looks like he’s hiding. I say this as a - frustrated - Lib Dem who has a lot of time for Davey.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,578

    Scott_xP said:

    @SkyNews

    A passenger plane has returned to its departure airport in Japan after a crack was found on the cockpit window of the Boeing 737-800 aircraft mid-air.

    When I used to fly in the 80s I was always reassured when the plane was a Boeing and not a TriStar or a DC10.

    These days the first thing I look for is the safety card. If it states A310, A321 for example, I am good to go. This happened on Delta last month. Blessed relief that the doors are unlikely to shut fast or fall off.On a later flight on BA and I was scratching my head, which is the dodgy one, 737 or 777?
    It's only the 737 Max that has been dodgy, a new plane pretending to be an old 737 to keep assessment to a minimum.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,451
    New President of Taiwan:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-67920532

    Not a particular friend of China.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,952

    Nice to hear the Old Elite informing us that all of the current problems are nothing to do with their own manifest incapacities but rather are down to a mystical 'new elite'. Mostly the same folk that used to blame Brussels for their own failings until they managed to shoot that fox.

    Nearly everyone parroting this BS is either from the old elite or were bought and paid for by said elite long ago. It would be tragic if it was not quite so pathetic.

    Indeed.
    Anaemic growth since 2010 is down to local Councils and charities.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,319
    edited January 13

    Interesting header. But to repeat a comment I made in response to the NU10K stuff. The real elite (in old marxist terms, the owners of the means of production) must be laughing their socks off at stuff like this and Goodwin's nonsense, because it distracts from the enormous corporate power they still hold in most Western countries (and, increasingly, globally). Think about the immense power of the huge corporations - the Amazons, Googles, oil and gas companies, Tesco - I could go on and on.

    I don't deny that there is (as Weber predicted a long, long time ago) a bureaucratic elite, and that elite has significant failings. But to focus entirely on them and ignore the continuing power of big business, corporate greed, the military and so on is to miss a huge wedge of the source of power. Maybe I should write an alternative header.

    Indeed you should write a header.

    The idea that the U.K. military has any significant political pull is belied by the way that every government since the end of the Cold War has tried to cut military spending as the politically cheap option.

    In the U.K. we have a Medical Industrial Complex and a Social Protection Industrial Complex.


    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/UK_Government_spending_for_2023-24.png
  • Options
    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,532

    Scott_xP said:

    @SkyNews

    A passenger plane has returned to its departure airport in Japan after a crack was found on the cockpit window of the Boeing 737-800 aircraft mid-air.

    When I used to fly in the 80s I was always reassured when the plane was a Boeing and not a TriStar or a DC10.

    These days the first thing I look for is the safety card. If it states A310, A321 for example, I am good to go. This happened on Delta last month. Blessed relief that the doors are unlikely to shut fast or fall off.On a later flight on BA and I was scratching my head, which is the dodgy one, 737 or 777?
    Don't tell me, it's all gone pear-shaped since Starmer took over Boeing?
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,339
    TimS said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TimS said:

    BBC - New Malden ex-postmistress aims to stand against Sir Ed Davey

    An ex-deputy postmistress from London says she will stand against Lib Dem leader Sir Ed Davey at the next general election, as he faces criticism over his role in the Post Office scandal.

    Yvonne Tracey worked at New Malden post office for more than 30 years and said Sir Ed's attitude "must be challenged".

    Sir Ed, MP for Kingston and Surbiton, initially refused to meet campaigner Alan Bates when he was a minister.

    He has now said he was "deeply misled" by Post Office executives. . . .

    A Lib Dem spokesperson told the BBC: "Ed's heart goes out to the families caught up in this scandal and his focus is on getting justice and compensation for those impacted.

    "He bitterly regrets that the Post Office was not honest with him at the time and will fully cooperate with the inquiry to get to the bottom of what went wrong."

    They added: "Ed has earned the reputation as a hardworking and tireless local MP, who helps thousands of residents, businesses and community groups every year, which has resulted in him serving the constituency for 30 years."

    A public inquiry into the Post Office affair, which was launched in 2021, resumed this week. The Post Office said it aims to get to "the truth of what went wrong".

    A spokesperson for Fujitsu, the tech company that developed the Horizon system, said the company recognised the "devastating impact on postmasters' lives and that of their families" and had "apologised for its role in their suffering".

    I don’t know who advising him but that’s almost up at Priti levels of non apology apology. Come on Ed, you’re better than that.
    Has he actually provided any details about:
    - who lied to him
    - when
    - what the lies were
    - when he realised he had been lied to
    - what he did when he realised he was being or had been lied to?

    Is he going to provide such details?

    Otherwise it's just another "I'm a gullible moron so you can't blame me" defence?

    A5nd if he was lied to, did he perhaps make it easy for civil servants to do this to him? He might want to reflect on that.
    His only get out now I think is a really full and frank disclosure, exactly as you suggest above. Otherwise he looks like he’s hiding. I say this as a - frustrated - Lib Dem who has a lot of time for Davey.
    We need a frank disclose on VET bills. My dog cut her leg one inch cut quite deep was a few stitches a few ml of metacam and an antibiotic jab plus a few in tablet firm. Total bill 500 quid. Frankly I think its extortionate. It wasn't even a General anaesthetic, it was sedation . It would have probably have been 600. . What can we do? We have to pay and they know it.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,124

    Scott_xP said:

    @SkyNews

    A passenger plane has returned to its departure airport in Japan after a crack was found on the cockpit window of the Boeing 737-800 aircraft mid-air.

    When I used to fly in the 80s I was always reassured when the plane was a Boeing and not a TriStar or a DC10.

    These days the first thing I look for is the safety card. If it states A310, A321 for example, I am good to go. This happened on Delta last month. Blessed relief that the doors are unlikely to shut fast or fall off.On a later flight on BA and I was scratching my head, which is the dodgy one, 737 or 777?
    Don't tell me, it's all gone pear-shaped since Starmer took over Boeing?
    Well the decline does correspond to his time as DPP and as an MP.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,554
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    If we take a few contemporaneous examples:

    Rishi Sunak: respectable middle class parents, but can a provincial GP and pharmacist really be considered elite?

    Keir Starmer: Father a Surrey toolmaker, mother a nurse. Once again respectable middle class but hardly elite.

    To move away from politics, perhaps Paula Vennells? Manchester Grammar School, Bradford University then management trainee at Unilever. Not sure what her parents did, but being born in a coalfield town now incorporated into Manchester doesn't seem elite, so mich as middle class.

    Perhaps the CEO of the National theatre? Indhi Rabinsingham, born in Sheffield to Sinhalese Tamil immigrant parents. Doesn't sound particularly elite.

    Or the CEO of the National Gallery? Gabriele Finaldi brought up in Barnet and Catford, to a Neapolitan father and Anglo-Polish mother. Doesn't really whiff of elite privilege doesn't it?

    How about the CEO of the NHS? Amanda Pritchard was Comprehensive schooled in Somerset, daughter of an Anglican priest who later became a Bishop.

    Just to pick a few fairly randomly.

    So none from an elite background, but all elite now. All from middle class backgrounds but none obviously benefiting from insider connections.

    So is there really a mysterious elite of mutual benefit? Or just a bunch of people with successful careers from a wide variety of middle class backgrounds?

    It seems we are define elite as the people in charge, a meaningless circular definition.



    Paula Vennells was at Manchester Grammar? Are you sure? Given it's boys only that seems unlikely.
    Sorry, Manchester High School for Girls. It doesn't really invalidate my point though.

    If you define elite as anyone ambitious who had a successful post University career then it is a pretty useless concept.

    If you define it more narrowly as the Notting Hill Set or friends of the Spectator editor then you might have a point, but they have only fairly narrow bounds of elite privilege.
    Perhaps this is like the peerage. You have life peers and previously had hereditary peers. The Spectator / Notting Hill set elite is hereditary. Ingrained into British life, almost possible to get rid of, and some of the loudest shouters about the new elite.

    Then there are those who enjoy elite positions during their working life with little or no hereditary element. There is definitely a sense that once at certain levels of managerial responsibility people become established, such that their success starts to diverge from their talent or competence. But it’s a more ephemeral thing. More about the structure of the economy and government than the person’s background.
  • Options
    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,532

    Interesting header. But to repeat a comment I made in response to the NU10K stuff. The real elite (in old marxist terms, the owners of the means of production) must be laughing their socks off at stuff like this and Goodwin's nonsense, because it distracts from the enormous corporate power they still hold in most Western countries (and, increasingly, globally). Think about the immense power of the huge corporations - the Amazons, Googles, oil and gas companies, Tesco - I could go on and on.

    I don't deny that there is (as Weber predicted a long, long time ago) a bureaucratic elite, and that elite has significant failings. But to focus entirely on them and ignore the continuing power of big business, corporate greed, the military and so on is to miss a huge wedge of the source of power. Maybe I should write an alternative header.

    Indeed you should write a header.

    The idea that the U.K. military has any significant political pull is belied by the way that every government since the end of the Cold War has tried to cut military spending as the politically cheap option.

    In the U.K. we have a Medical Industrial Complex and a Social Protection Industrial Complex.


    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/UK_Government_spending_for_2023-24.png
    I wasn't thinking of the UK military. I was thinking of the arms trade. I believe we still make, and sell on the global market, a lot of 'defence' stuff?
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,409
    TimS said:

    Nice to hear the Old Elite informing us that all of the current problems are nothing to do with their own manifest incapacities but rather are down to a mystical 'new elite'. Mostly the same folk that used to blame Brussels for their own failings until they managed to shoot that fox.

    Nearly everyone parroting this BS is either from the old elite or were bought and paid for by said elite long ago. It would be tragic if it was not quite so pathetic.

    I’ve always felt that, just as most wars or revolutions pitch one elite against another, Brexit was a battle between two parts of the governing elite.
    That's been the playbook long enough that Orwell wrote it in 1984, didn't he? Right down to the Division Two elite co-opting the proles then putting them back in their place, and intending that the pendulum would swing once more and then stop forever.

    1984 was, of course, a work of fiction.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,319

    Nice to hear the Old Elite informing us that all of the current problems are nothing to do with their own manifest incapacities but rather are down to a mystical 'new elite'. Mostly the same folk that used to blame Brussels for their own failings until they managed to shoot that fox.

    Nearly everyone parroting this BS is either from the old elite or were bought and paid for by said elite long ago. It would be tragic if it was not quite so pathetic.

    Are you worried that someone might dare to hold you accountable for the things that your job title says you are accountable for?

  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,547
    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @SkyNews

    A passenger plane has returned to its departure airport in Japan after a crack was found on the cockpit window of the Boeing 737-800 aircraft mid-air.

    When I used to fly in the 80s I was always reassured when the plane was a Boeing and not a TriStar or a DC10.

    These days the first thing I look for is the safety card. If it states A310, A321 for example, I am good to go. This happened on Delta last month. Blessed relief that the doors are unlikely to shut fast or fall off.On a later flight on BA and I was scratching my head, which is the dodgy one, 737 or 777?
    It's only the 737 Max that has been dodgy, a new plane pretending to be an old 737 to keep assessment to a minimum.
    However, am guess that that Boeing and FAA may NOT be enjoying such a comfy cosy relationship, at least in near future.

    Just one example of how FAA has been pimping for airlines rather than doing its job: flight recorders that tape over existing records after TWO HOURS.

    NOT helpful, for example, to National Transportation Safety Board investigators who are investigating Boeing's new Open Door policy.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,554
    edited January 13

    TimS said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TimS said:

    BBC - New Malden ex-postmistress aims to stand against Sir Ed Davey

    An ex-deputy postmistress from London says she will stand against Lib Dem leader Sir Ed Davey at the next general election, as he faces criticism over his role in the Post Office scandal.

    Yvonne Tracey worked at New Malden post office for more than 30 years and said Sir Ed's attitude "must be challenged".

    Sir Ed, MP for Kingston and Surbiton, initially refused to meet campaigner Alan Bates when he was a minister.

    He has now said he was "deeply misled" by Post Office executives. . . .

    A Lib Dem spokesperson told the BBC: "Ed's heart goes out to the families caught up in this scandal and his focus is on getting justice and compensation for those impacted.

    "He bitterly regrets that the Post Office was not honest with him at the time and will fully cooperate with the inquiry to get to the bottom of what went wrong."

    They added: "Ed has earned the reputation as a hardworking and tireless local MP, who helps thousands of residents, businesses and community groups every year, which has resulted in him serving the constituency for 30 years."

    A public inquiry into the Post Office affair, which was launched in 2021, resumed this week. The Post Office said it aims to get to "the truth of what went wrong".

    A spokesperson for Fujitsu, the tech company that developed the Horizon system, said the company recognised the "devastating impact on postmasters' lives and that of their families" and had "apologised for its role in their suffering".

    I don’t know who advising him but that’s almost up at Priti levels of non apology apology. Come on Ed, you’re better than that.
    Has he actually provided any details about:
    - who lied to him
    - when
    - what the lies were
    - when he realised he had been lied to
    - what he did when he realised he was being or had been lied to?

    Is he going to provide such details?

    Otherwise it's just another "I'm a gullible moron so you can't blame me" defence?

    A5nd if he was lied to, did he perhaps make it easy for civil servants to do this to him? He might want to reflect on that.
    His only get out now I think is a really full and frank disclosure, exactly as you suggest above. Otherwise he looks like he’s hiding. I say this as a - frustrated - Lib Dem who has a lot of time for Davey.
    We need a frank disclose on VET bills. My dog cut her leg one inch cut quite deep was a few stitches a few ml of metacam and an antibiotic jab plus a few in tablet firm. Total bill 500 quid. Frankly I think its extortionate. It wasn't even a General anaesthetic, it was sedation . It would have probably have been 600. . What can we do? We have to pay and they know it.
    It’s a fascinating phenomenon, as I can attest as a cat owner and recent victim.

    Veterinary practices used to be one of the most decentralised, unconsolidated industries. They had little pricing or buying power. In the last few years, as with their close cousins dentists, they have consolidated massively. Most vets are now large chains and franchises. It means they have more buying power with their suppliers, and vastly more selling power with customers and insurance companies.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,911
    I assume this clip of Sir Keir on BBC Breakfast yesterday has been edited to make him look bad. Ed Davey-esque

    Maybe they read my posts on here and their confidence is blown?

    https://x.com/esthermcvey1/status/1746154516137849077?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,578
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    If we take a few contemporaneous examples:

    Rishi Sunak: respectable middle class parents, but can a provincial GP and pharmacist really be considered elite?

    Keir Starmer: Father a Surrey toolmaker, mother a nurse. Once again respectable middle class but hardly elite.

    To move away from politics, perhaps Paula Vennells? Manchester Grammar School, Bradford University then management trainee at Unilever. Not sure what her parents did, but being born in a coalfield town now incorporated into Manchester doesn't seem elite, so mich as middle class.

    Perhaps the CEO of the National theatre? Indhi Rabinsingham, born in Sheffield to Sinhalese Tamil immigrant parents. Doesn't sound particularly elite.

    Or the CEO of the National Gallery? Gabriele Finaldi brought up in Barnet and Catford, to a Neapolitan father and Anglo-Polish mother. Doesn't really whiff of elite privilege doesn't it?

    How about the CEO of the NHS? Amanda Pritchard was Comprehensive schooled in Somerset, daughter of an Anglican priest who later became a Bishop.

    Just to pick a few fairly randomly.

    So none from an elite background, but all elite now. All from middle class backgrounds but none obviously benefiting from insider connections.

    So is there really a mysterious elite of mutual benefit? Or just a bunch of people with successful careers from a wide variety of middle class backgrounds?

    It seems we are define elite as the people in charge, a meaningless circular definition.



    Paula Vennells was at Manchester Grammar? Are you sure? Given it's boys only that seems unlikely.
    Sorry, Manchester High School for Girls. It doesn't really invalidate my point though.

    If you define elite as anyone ambitious who had a successful post University career then it is a pretty useless concept.

    If you define it more narrowly as the Notting Hill Set or friends of the Spectator editor then you might have a point, but they have only fairly narrow bounds of elite privilege.
    I think it might more usefully be argued that it's anyone who got into a 'top' uni and had a successful career despite never showing the slightest sign of basic competence.

    Many of them did indeed go to private school. Indeed, some of these schools must be astonishingly good at getting teenagers through exams, judging by the results, but unfortunately they don't seem to have thought critical thinking, intellectual curiosity or personal humility en route.
    So to stick with Paula Vennals:

    Was Bradford University a top university when she went there in the late 1970's, or even now?

    Is there any evidence that she was incompetent in any of her jobs prior to the Post Office? Or was she pretty good at them?

  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,936

    Nice to hear the Old Elite informing us that all of the current problems are nothing to do with their own manifest incapacities but rather are down to a mystical 'new elite'. Mostly the same folk that used to blame Brussels for their own failings until they managed to shoot that fox.

    Nearly everyone parroting this BS is either from the old elite or were bought and paid for by said elite long ago. It would be tragic if it was not quite so pathetic.

    Are you worried that someone might dare to hold you accountable for the things that your job title says you are accountable for?

    Yep. Methinks the man doth protest too much.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,124
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    If we take a few contemporaneous examples:

    Rishi Sunak: respectable middle class parents, but can a provincial GP and pharmacist really be considered elite?

    Keir Starmer: Father a Surrey toolmaker, mother a nurse. Once again respectable middle class but hardly elite.

    To move away from politics, perhaps Paula Vennells? Manchester Grammar School, Bradford University then management trainee at Unilever. Not sure what her parents did, but being born in a coalfield town now incorporated into Manchester doesn't seem elite, so mich as middle class.

    Perhaps the CEO of the National theatre? Indhi Rabinsingham, born in Sheffield to Sinhalese Tamil immigrant parents. Doesn't sound particularly elite.

    Or the CEO of the National Gallery? Gabriele Finaldi brought up in Barnet and Catford, to a Neapolitan father and Anglo-Polish mother. Doesn't really whiff of elite privilege doesn't it?

    How about the CEO of the NHS? Amanda Pritchard was Comprehensive schooled in Somerset, daughter of an Anglican priest who later became a Bishop.

    Just to pick a few fairly randomly.

    So none from an elite background, but all elite now. All from middle class backgrounds but none obviously benefiting from insider connections.

    So is there really a mysterious elite of mutual benefit? Or just a bunch of people with successful careers from a wide variety of middle class backgrounds?

    It seems we are define elite as the people in charge, a meaningless circular definition.



    Paula Vennells was at Manchester Grammar? Are you sure? Given it's boys only that seems unlikely.
    Sorry, Manchester High School for Girls. It doesn't really invalidate my point though.

    If you define elite as anyone ambitious who had a successful post University career then it is a pretty useless concept.

    If you define it more narrowly as the Notting Hill Set or friends of the Spectator editor then you might have a point, but they have only fairly narrow bounds of elite privilege.
    I think it might more usefully be argued that it's anyone who got into a 'top' uni and had a successful career despite never showing the slightest sign of basic competence.

    Many of them did indeed go to private school. Indeed, some of these schools must be astonishingly good at getting teenagers through exams, judging by the results, but unfortunately they don't seem to have thought critical thinking, intellectual curiosity or personal humility en route.
    So to stick with Paula Vennals:

    Was Bradford University a top university when she went there in the late 1970's, or even now?

    Is there any evidence that she was incompetent in any of her jobs prior to the Post Office? Or was she pretty good at them?

    Wasn't Sir Gavin Williamson a Bradford Universoty alumni?

    Posted without comment.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,936
    dixiedean said:

    Nice to hear the Old Elite informing us that all of the current problems are nothing to do with their own manifest incapacities but rather are down to a mystical 'new elite'. Mostly the same folk that used to blame Brussels for their own failings until they managed to shoot that fox.

    Nearly everyone parroting this BS is either from the old elite or were bought and paid for by said elite long ago. It would be tragic if it was not quite so pathetic.

    Indeed.
    Anaemic growth since 2010 is down to local Councils and charities.
    Anaemic growth doesn't cause people to be corrupt, unaccountable and incompetent. And we have an epedemic of such behaviour which long predates 2010.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    If we take a few contemporaneous examples:

    Rishi Sunak: respectable middle class parents, but can a provincial GP and pharmacist really be considered elite?

    Keir Starmer: Father a Surrey toolmaker, mother a nurse. Once again respectable middle class but hardly elite.

    To move away from politics, perhaps Paula Vennells? Manchester Grammar School, Bradford University then management trainee at Unilever. Not sure what her parents did, but being born in a coalfield town now incorporated into Manchester doesn't seem elite, so mich as middle class.

    Perhaps the CEO of the National theatre? Indhi Rabinsingham, born in Sheffield to Sinhalese Tamil immigrant parents. Doesn't sound particularly elite.

    Or the CEO of the National Gallery? Gabriele Finaldi brought up in Barnet and Catford, to a Neapolitan father and Anglo-Polish mother. Doesn't really whiff of elite privilege doesn't it?

    How about the CEO of the NHS? Amanda Pritchard was Comprehensive schooled in Somerset, daughter of an Anglican priest who later became a Bishop.

    Just to pick a few fairly randomly.

    So none from an elite background, but all elite now. All from middle class backgrounds but none obviously benefiting from insider connections.

    So is there really a mysterious elite of mutual benefit? Or just a bunch of people with successful careers from a wide variety of middle class backgrounds?

    It seems we are define elite as the people in charge, a meaningless circular definition.



    Paula Vennells was at Manchester Grammar? Are you sure? Given it's boys only that seems unlikely.
    Sorry, Manchester High School for Girls. It doesn't really invalidate my point though.

    If you define elite as anyone ambitious who had a successful post University career then it is a pretty useless concept.

    If you define it more narrowly as the Notting Hill Set or friends of the Spectator editor then you might have a point, but they have only fairly narrow bounds of elite privilege.
    I think it might more usefully be argued that it's anyone who got into a 'top' uni and had a successful career despite never showing the slightest sign of basic competence.

    Many of them did indeed go to private school. Indeed, some of these schools must be astonishingly good at getting teenagers through exams, judging by the results, but unfortunately they don't seem to have thought critical thinking, intellectual curiosity or personal humility en route.
    So to stick with Paula Vennals:

    Was Bradford University a top university when she went there in the late 1970's, or even now?

    Is there any evidence that she was incompetent in any of her jobs prior to the Post Office? Or was she pretty good at them?

    She was responsible for covering up massive criminality when she could have exposed it, leaving her at risk of a charge of perverting The course of justice.

    She is also accused of leading an organisation that indulged in false accounting due to not understanding the rules around compensation.

    That sounds like incompetence to me.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,124
    ...
    isam said:

    I assume this clip of Sir Keir on BBC Breakfast yesterday has been edited to make him look bad. Ed Davey-esque

    Maybe they read my posts on here and their confidence is blown?

    https://x.com/esthermcvey1/status/1746154516137849077?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Has he gone yet?
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    isam said:

    I assume this clip of Sir Keir on BBC Breakfast yesterday has been edited to make him look bad. Ed Davey-esque

    Maybe they read my posts on here and their confidence is blown?

    https://x.com/esthermcvey1/status/1746154516137849077?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Maybe but the same stupid counter keeps clacking everytime Starmer opens his mouth. By over-egging, it ultimately becomes ineffective.

    A bit like your posts.
  • Options
    Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 2,741

    Interesting header. But to repeat a comment I made in response to the NU10K stuff. The real elite (in old marxist terms, the owners of the means of production) must be laughing their socks off at stuff like this and Goodwin's nonsense, because it distracts from the enormous corporate power they still hold in most Western countries (and, increasingly, globally). Think about the immense power of the huge corporations - the Amazons, Googles, oil and gas companies, Tesco - I could go on and on.

    I don't deny that there is (as Weber predicted a long, long time ago) a bureaucratic elite, and that elite has significant failings. But to focus entirely on them and ignore the continuing power of big business, corporate greed, the military and so on is to miss a huge wedge of the source of power. Maybe I should write an alternative header.

    Indeed you should write a header.

    The idea that the U.K. military has any significant political pull is belied by the way that every government since the end of the Cold War has tried to cut military spending as the politically cheap option.

    In the U.K. we have a Medical Industrial Complex and a Social Protection Industrial Complex.


    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/UK_Government_spending_for_2023-24.png
    Not quite sure who the 10K elite is restricted to. If you add up all the people behind the royal box at Wimbledon, blazered swells in the Pimms tent at Henley, chaps in black tie quaffing Pol Roger on the lawn at Glyndebourne, it comes to much more than 10K. From the point of view of a Marxist insurrectionary (retired) 10K does rather underestimate the scale of the problem.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,243
    @viewcode

    Another great piece, but you misquoted Khan Noonien Singh (Ricardo Montalban) in Star Trek II.

    He said, "He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!". He doesn't mention his sidekick Joachim's name.

    Joachim himself isn't listed in the credits, making this an uncredited performance by Judson Scott. Apparently a dispute about whether he should receive top billing.

  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,506
    From Viewcode's article:

    "...but the salient point here is not the elites but his concept of “elite overproduction”: the creation of people who have sufficient time and money and intelligence to wield power but who are stymied by the lack of posts".


    This is not, I think, correct, and is a case of the 'lump of labour' fallacy. If the UK were overproducing this sort of talent we would be overrun with UK people creating large numbers of mighty and powerful enterprises of all sorts. While in truth a huge proportion of the most enterprising have come into the UK from abroad. Ask any active UK investment manager.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,578

    TimS said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TimS said:

    BBC - New Malden ex-postmistress aims to stand against Sir Ed Davey

    An ex-deputy postmistress from London says she will stand against Lib Dem leader Sir Ed Davey at the next general election, as he faces criticism over his role in the Post Office scandal.

    Yvonne Tracey worked at New Malden post office for more than 30 years and said Sir Ed's attitude "must be challenged".

    Sir Ed, MP for Kingston and Surbiton, initially refused to meet campaigner Alan Bates when he was a minister.

    He has now said he was "deeply misled" by Post Office executives. . . .

    A Lib Dem spokesperson told the BBC: "Ed's heart goes out to the families caught up in this scandal and his focus is on getting justice and compensation for those impacted.

    "He bitterly regrets that the Post Office was not honest with him at the time and will fully cooperate with the inquiry to get to the bottom of what went wrong."

    They added: "Ed has earned the reputation as a hardworking and tireless local MP, who helps thousands of residents, businesses and community groups every year, which has resulted in him serving the constituency for 30 years."

    A public inquiry into the Post Office affair, which was launched in 2021, resumed this week. The Post Office said it aims to get to "the truth of what went wrong".

    A spokesperson for Fujitsu, the tech company that developed the Horizon system, said the company recognised the "devastating impact on postmasters' lives and that of their families" and had "apologised for its role in their suffering".

    I don’t know who advising him but that’s almost up at Priti levels of non apology apology. Come on Ed, you’re better than that.
    Has he actually provided any details about:
    - who lied to him
    - when
    - what the lies were
    - when he realised he had been lied to
    - what he did when he realised he was being or had been lied to?

    Is he going to provide such details?

    Otherwise it's just another "I'm a gullible moron so you can't blame me" defence?

    A5nd if he was lied to, did he perhaps make it easy for civil servants to do this to him? He might want to reflect on that.
    His only get out now I think is a really full and frank disclosure, exactly as you suggest above. Otherwise he looks like he’s hiding. I say this as a - frustrated - Lib Dem who has a lot of time for Davey.
    We need a frank disclose on VET bills. My dog cut her leg one inch cut quite deep was a few stitches a few ml of metacam and an antibiotic jab plus a few in tablet firm. Total bill 500 quid. Frankly I think its extortionate. It wasn't even a General anaesthetic, it was sedation . It would have probably have been 600. . What can we do? We have to pay and they know it.
    That's private medicine for you. It could cost you substantially more with the same wound in a human uninsured in an American Emergency Room.
  • Options

    Scott_xP said:

    @SkyNews

    A passenger plane has returned to its departure airport in Japan after a crack was found on the cockpit window of the Boeing 737-800 aircraft mid-air.

    When I used to fly in the 80s I was always reassured when the plane was a Boeing and not a TriStar or a DC10.

    These days the first thing I look for is the safety card. If it states A310, A321 for example, I am good to go. This happened on Delta last month. Blessed relief that the doors are unlikely to shut fast or fall off.On a later flight on BA and I was scratching my head, which is the dodgy one, 737 or 777?
    Of course Airbus wings are all made here in North Wales, so you have every right to feel safe with Airbus
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,547
    edited January 13
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    If we take a few contemporaneous examples:

    Rishi Sunak: respectable middle class parents, but can a provincial GP and pharmacist really be considered elite?

    Keir Starmer: Father a Surrey toolmaker, mother a nurse. Once again respectable middle class but hardly elite.

    To move away from politics, perhaps Paula Vennells? Manchester Grammar School, Bradford University then management trainee at Unilever. Not sure what her parents did, but being born in a coalfield town now incorporated into Manchester doesn't seem elite, so mich as middle class.

    Perhaps the CEO of the National theatre? Indhi Rabinsingham, born in Sheffield to Sinhalese Tamil immigrant parents. Doesn't sound particularly elite.

    Or the CEO of the National Gallery? Gabriele Finaldi brought up in Barnet and Catford, to a Neapolitan father and Anglo-Polish mother. Doesn't really whiff of elite privilege doesn't it?

    How about the CEO of the NHS? Amanda Pritchard was Comprehensive schooled in Somerset, daughter of an Anglican priest who later became a Bishop.

    Just to pick a few fairly randomly.

    So none from an elite background, but all elite now. All from middle class backgrounds but none obviously benefiting from insider connections.

    So is there really a mysterious elite of mutual benefit? Or just a bunch of people with successful careers from a wide variety of middle class backgrounds?

    It seems we are define elite as the people in charge, a meaningless circular definition.



    Paula Vennells was at Manchester Grammar? Are you sure? Given it's boys only that seems unlikely.
    Sorry, Manchester High School for Girls. It doesn't really invalidate my point though.

    If you define elite as anyone ambitious who had a successful post University career then it is a pretty useless concept.

    If you define it more narrowly as the Notting Hill Set or friends of the Spectator editor then you might have a point, but they have only fairly narrow bounds of elite privilege.
    I think it might more usefully be argued that it's anyone who got into a 'top' uni and had a successful career despite never showing the slightest sign of basic competence.

    Many of them did indeed go to private school. Indeed, some of these schools must be astonishingly good at getting teenagers through exams, judging by the results, but unfortunately they don't seem to have thought critical thinking, intellectual curiosity or personal humility en route.
    So to stick with Paula Vennals:

    Was Bradford University a top university when she went there in the late 1970's, or even now?

    Is there any evidence that she was incompetent in any of her jobs prior to the Post Office? Or was she pretty good at them?

    Competent at what? One wonders.

    > Is "victim" of dread Peter Principle?

    > Was one of her competencies, burying what her bosses wished buried?

    Hardly exhausts possibilities. Or preclude both of the above being true, in part if not in toto.

    Speaking of the later:

    Toti and Twister - Wizard of Oz
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awL4PJRrp9Q

    Spot character who MOST resembles Paula Vennells? In eyes of Great British Public, for now anyway.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,911

    isam said:

    I assume this clip of Sir Keir on BBC Breakfast yesterday has been edited to make him look bad. Ed Davey-esque

    Maybe they read my posts on here and their confidence is blown?

    https://x.com/esthermcvey1/status/1746154516137849077?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Maybe but the same stupid counter keeps clacking everytime Starmer opens his mouth. By over-egging, it ultimately becomes ineffective.

    A bit like your posts.
    Meow! That’s not very nice. Then again I could say the same to you if I felt the need, so I understand

    I agree that counter was OTT, and having just watched another version of the interview, McVey’s one is indeed heavily edited.

    https://x.com/bbcbreakfast/status/1745732442789409022?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,319
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    If we take a few contemporaneous examples:

    Rishi Sunak: respectable middle class parents, but can a provincial GP and pharmacist really be considered elite?

    Keir Starmer: Father a Surrey toolmaker, mother a nurse. Once again respectable middle class but hardly elite.

    To move away from politics, perhaps Paula Vennells? Manchester Grammar School, Bradford University then management trainee at Unilever. Not sure what her parents did, but being born in a coalfield town now incorporated into Manchester doesn't seem elite, so mich as middle class.

    Perhaps the CEO of the National theatre? Indhi Rabinsingham, born in Sheffield to Sinhalese Tamil immigrant parents. Doesn't sound particularly elite.

    Or the CEO of the National Gallery? Gabriele Finaldi brought up in Barnet and Catford, to a Neapolitan father and Anglo-Polish mother. Doesn't really whiff of elite privilege doesn't it?

    How about the CEO of the NHS? Amanda Pritchard was Comprehensive schooled in Somerset, daughter of an Anglican priest who later became a Bishop.

    Just to pick a few fairly randomly.

    So none from an elite background, but all elite now. All from middle class backgrounds but none obviously benefiting from insider connections.

    So is there really a mysterious elite of mutual benefit? Or just a bunch of people with successful careers from a wide variety of middle class backgrounds?

    It seems we are define elite as the people in charge, a meaningless circular definition.



    Paula Vennells was at Manchester Grammar? Are you sure? Given it's boys only that seems unlikely.
    Sorry, Manchester High School for Girls. It doesn't really invalidate my point though.

    If you define elite as anyone ambitious who had a successful post University career then it is a pretty useless concept.

    If you define it more narrowly as the Notting Hill Set or friends of the Spectator editor then you might have a point, but they have only fairly narrow bounds of elite privilege.
    I think it might more usefully be argued that it's anyone who got into a 'top' uni and had a successful career despite never showing the slightest sign of basic competence.

    Many of them did indeed go to private school. Indeed, some of these schools must be astonishingly good at getting teenagers through exams, judging by the results, but unfortunately they don't seem to have thought critical thinking, intellectual curiosity or personal humility en route.
    So to stick with Paula Vennals:

    Was Bradford University a top university when she went there in the late 1970's, or even now?

    Is there any evidence that she was incompetent in any of her jobs prior to the Post Office? Or was she pretty good at them?

    She was responsible for covering up massive criminality when she could have exposed it, leaving her at risk of a charge of perverting The course of justice.

    She is also accused of leading an organisation that indulged in false accounting due to not understanding the rules around compensation.

    That sounds like incompetence to me.
    If not active fucking incompetence. Has the DfE tried to recruit her?

    All I want is the circle to stop. Ok, unlike the Head Count, when you kill someone, no manslaughter. You are Ubermensch, after all.

    But you go home with your Golden Goodbye and that’s it. No turning up in the next job.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,911
    edited January 13

    ...

    isam said:

    I assume this clip of Sir Keir on BBC Breakfast yesterday has been edited to make him look bad. Ed Davey-esque

    Maybe they read my posts on here and their confidence is blown?

    https://x.com/esthermcvey1/status/1746154516137849077?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Has he gone yet?
    I reckon so. He goes on a bit, but the interview was at half eight yesterday morning, so he must’ve left the studio by now
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    edited January 13
    There certainly is an elite in the UK.
    They are primarily privately-educated, they primarily live in London, and they are susceptible to the same sort of groupthink.

    There is a left-wing elite, who run the civil service, the public sector, the universities, broadcasting and the arts. There is a right-wing elite, who run the finance industry and certain influential news outlets.

    All countries have elites, Britain’s issue is that they are primarily drawn from the same class, universities, and geography.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,409
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    If we take a few contemporaneous examples:

    Rishi Sunak: respectable middle class parents, but can a provincial GP and pharmacist really be considered elite?

    Keir Starmer: Father a Surrey toolmaker, mother a nurse. Once again respectable middle class but hardly elite.

    To move away from politics, perhaps Paula Vennells? Manchester Grammar School, Bradford University then management trainee at Unilever. Not sure what her parents did, but being born in a coalfield town now incorporated into Manchester doesn't seem elite, so mich as middle class.

    Perhaps the CEO of the National theatre? Indhi Rabinsingham, born in Sheffield to Sinhalese Tamil immigrant parents. Doesn't sound particularly elite.

    Or the CEO of the National Gallery? Gabriele Finaldi brought up in Barnet and Catford, to a Neapolitan father and Anglo-Polish mother. Doesn't really whiff of elite privilege doesn't it?

    How about the CEO of the NHS? Amanda Pritchard was Comprehensive schooled in Somerset, daughter of an Anglican priest who later became a Bishop.

    Just to pick a few fairly randomly.

    So none from an elite background, but all elite now. All from middle class backgrounds but none obviously benefiting from insider connections.

    So is there really a mysterious elite of mutual benefit? Or just a bunch of people with successful careers from a wide variety of middle class backgrounds?

    It seems we are define elite as the people in charge, a meaningless circular definition.



    Paula Vennells was at Manchester Grammar? Are you sure? Given it's boys only that seems unlikely.
    Sorry, Manchester High School for Girls. It doesn't really invalidate my point though.

    If you define elite as anyone ambitious who had a successful post University career then it is a pretty useless concept.

    If you define it more narrowly as the Notting Hill Set or friends of the Spectator editor then you might have a point, but they have only fairly narrow bounds of elite privilege.
    I think it might more usefully be argued that it's anyone who got into a 'top' uni and had a successful career despite never showing the slightest sign of basic competence.

    Many of them did indeed go to private school. Indeed, some of these schools must be astonishingly good at getting teenagers through exams, judging by the results, but unfortunately they don't seem to have thought critical thinking, intellectual curiosity or personal humility en route.
    So to stick with Paula Vennals:

    Was Bradford University a top university when she went there in the late 1970's, or even now?

    Is there any evidence that she was incompetent in any of her jobs prior to the Post Office? Or was she pretty good at them?

    She was responsible for covering up massive criminality when she could have exposed it, leaving her at risk of a charge of perverting The course of justice.

    She is also accused of leading an organisation that indulged in false accounting due to not understanding the rules around compensation.

    That sounds like incompetence to me.
    Two sorts of incompetence, though.

    One is well-meaning cluelessness leading to disaster (think Frank Spencer). The other is doing bad things after mislaying one's sense of right and wrong.

    In the second case, incompetence is a bit of a relief.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,182

    Tom Tugendhat
    @TomTugendhat
    ·
    57m
    It’s extraordinary to watch young men and women - who I’m sure would tell you they believe in freedom and equality - supporting groups like the Houthis who have reintroduced slavery, and systematically violate the rights of women and girls.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    Scott_xP said:

    @SkyNews

    A passenger plane has returned to its departure airport in Japan after a crack was found on the cockpit window of the Boeing 737-800 aircraft mid-air.

    When I used to fly in the 80s I was always reassured when the plane was a Boeing and not a TriStar or a DC10.

    These days the first thing I look for is the safety card. If it states A310, A321 for example, I am good to go. This happened on Delta last month. Blessed relief that the doors are unlikely to shut fast or fall off.On a later flight on BA and I was scratching my head, which is the dodgy one, 737 or 777?
    Of course Airbus wings are all made here in North Wales, so you have every right to feel safe with Airbus
    Since when is “Made in Wales” a quality mark?
  • Options

    Scott_xP said:

    @SkyNews

    A passenger plane has returned to its departure airport in Japan after a crack was found on the cockpit window of the Boeing 737-800 aircraft mid-air.

    When I used to fly in the 80s I was always reassured when the plane was a Boeing and not a TriStar or a DC10.

    These days the first thing I look for is the safety card. If it states A310, A321 for example, I am good to go. This happened on Delta last month. Blessed relief that the doors are unlikely to shut fast or fall off.On a later flight on BA and I was scratching my head, which is the dodgy one, 737 or 777?
    Of course Airbus wings are all made here in North Wales, so you have every right to feel safe with Airbus
    Since when is “Made in Wales” a quality mark?
    In this case it most certainly is
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,578
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    If we take a few contemporaneous examples:

    Rishi Sunak: respectable middle class parents, but can a provincial GP and pharmacist really be considered elite?

    Keir Starmer: Father a Surrey toolmaker, mother a nurse. Once again respectable middle class but hardly elite.

    To move away from politics, perhaps Paula Vennells? Manchester Grammar School, Bradford University then management trainee at Unilever. Not sure what her parents did, but being born in a coalfield town now incorporated into Manchester doesn't seem elite, so mich as middle class.

    Perhaps the CEO of the National theatre? Indhi Rabinsingham, born in Sheffield to Sinhalese Tamil immigrant parents. Doesn't sound particularly elite.

    Or the CEO of the National Gallery? Gabriele Finaldi brought up in Barnet and Catford, to a Neapolitan father and Anglo-Polish mother. Doesn't really whiff of elite privilege doesn't it?

    How about the CEO of the NHS? Amanda Pritchard was Comprehensive schooled in Somerset, daughter of an Anglican priest who later became a Bishop.

    Just to pick a few fairly randomly.

    So none from an elite background, but all elite now. All from middle class backgrounds but none obviously benefiting from insider connections.

    So is there really a mysterious elite of mutual benefit? Or just a bunch of people with successful careers from a wide variety of middle class backgrounds?

    It seems we are define elite as the people in charge, a meaningless circular definition.



    Paula Vennells was at Manchester Grammar? Are you sure? Given it's boys only that seems unlikely.
    Sorry, Manchester High School for Girls. It doesn't really invalidate my point though.

    If you define elite as anyone ambitious who had a successful post University career then it is a pretty useless concept.

    If you define it more narrowly as the Notting Hill Set or friends of the Spectator editor then you might have a point, but they have only fairly narrow bounds of elite privilege.
    I think it might more usefully be argued that it's anyone who got into a 'top' uni and had a successful career despite never showing the slightest sign of basic competence.

    Many of them did indeed go to private school. Indeed, some of these schools must be astonishingly good at getting teenagers through exams, judging by the results, but unfortunately they don't seem to have thought critical thinking, intellectual curiosity or personal humility en route.
    So to stick with Paula Vennals:

    Was Bradford University a top university when she went there in the late 1970's, or even now?

    Is there any evidence that she was incompetent in any of her jobs prior to the Post Office? Or was she pretty good at them?

    She was responsible for covering up massive criminality when she could have exposed it, leaving her at risk of a charge of perverting The course of justice.

    She is also accused of leading an organisation that indulged in false accounting due to not understanding the rules around compensation.

    That sounds like incompetence to me.
    Sure, she has been incompetent at the PO, but you did claim that she had been incompetent previously and fell upwards.

    Can you cite anything in support of that allegation?
This discussion has been closed.