But it is not just Sir Ed Davey. It is the political equivalent to Murder on the Orient Express. All the three main political parties did it. They are all guilty.
From the Blair administration which brought in Horizon and overrode concerns about Fujitsu. Then there was Jack Straw's wife, Alice Perkins, who was Chairman of the Post Office when this matter started to come to light. After Ed Davey, there was Jo Swinson, who was useless (No surprise.) Then the Conservatives, who awarded Paula Vennells her CBE. Not to mention Education Secretary Gillian Keegan's husband with his Post Office IT background and then head of Fujitsu in the UK. Now Rishi Sunaks' in-laws'company, it is alleged, have business dealings with Fujitsu.
Andrew Neil makes a good point here - rsther than trying to smear other politicians, the Tories could earn a lot of brownie points with voters by paying out the sub masters in full immediately.
When you think of all the money wasted on PPE & furlough, it would not be that costly and could be the Black Swan they are looking for
Too much “business-as-usual” in Rishi Sunak’s remarks about the sub-postmasters this morning. He doesn’t get the scale of the national outrage. He should have announced Alan Johnson as head of new compensation agency, with all claims generously settled this year and bill sent to Post Office. Plus instructed government lawyers to resolve all miscarriages of justice this year too, with additional compensation. And encouraged NCA to pursue criminal charges against Post Office executives.
The Mail on Sunday are beginning to notice Sir Keir’s Achilles heel.
“Starmer won the Labour leadership early in 2020 on an undiluted Corbynista platform which included all the major policies of Jeremy Corbyn's 2019 election manifesto (such as widespread nationalisation and abolition of university tuition fees), encapsulated in a ten-point plan.
In a BBC TV interview he assured me these weren't just promises, they were 'pledges' he was making to Labour members and the British people.
Every one, of course, has since been junked, most of them not long after he was elected leader.
For him now to rail against broken Tory promises and the 'political cynicism' that has engendered is rather like Satan setting his face against sin. It is simply not credible. If Starmer is our next prime minister — and I still regard that as the odds-on result come the election — then he will take power with the unique distinction of an opposition leader who has broken more promises and executed more U-turns out of power than most governments manage in office.”
Bit thin really from Brillo. When Sir Keir took over it was commonly assumed that the Tories would win at least one more general election - possibly several more when the fruits of Brexit came pouring in - so Sir Keir can be forgiven for being a bit flippant with the content of the next Labour manifesto, which would never to be implemented. The subsequent Tory implosion meant he had to get real and quickly.
Andrew Neil makes a good point here - rsther than trying to smear other politicians, the Tories could earn a lot of brownie points with voters by paying out the sub masters in full immediately.
When you think of all the money wasted on PPE & furlough, it would not be that costly and could be the Black Swan they are looking for
Too much “business-as-usual” in Rishi Sunak’s remarks about the sub-postmasters this morning. He doesn’t get the scale of the national outrage. He should have announced Alan Johnson as head of new compensation agency, with all claims generously settled this year and bill sent to Post Office. Plus instructed government lawyers to resolve all miscarriages of justice this year too, with additional compensation. And encouraged NCA to pursue criminal charges against Post Office executives.
Just finished the whole thing. Exceptionally good TV in terms of what it aimed to do: explain a horrible injustice, make you feel angry, tell the nation what happened
I reckon Davey is terminally damaged. Will struggle on but this now hangs around him. All the post office bigwigs are in danger of going to jail
On the upside this shows that - slowly, belatedly - British democracy and justice still kinda works. The 4th estate did its job. Journalists listened to a story and wrote it. Then tv came alone and shamed the powers that be (via a brilliant scriptwriter)
That’s something to cheer amidst what is still a pretty bleak tale. I apologise to all subpostmasters on PB for yawningly belittling this story
You owe me a drink or two when we meet.
You still have that visit to West Cumbria to do and the picnic on the beach I promised you.
I recently visited your beach. Some funny rules in the Gents...
Is not this standard UK practice? Think I saw more than one guy doing this in the jacks, believe it was a dive pub . . . in posher part of Mayfair . . .
I shall not post the picture, but what amused me most was the fact that this sign was stuck to the wall above an 8ft long trough urinal, with a automatically timed flush.
But it is not just Sir Ed Davey. It is the political equivalent to Murder on the Orient Express. All the three main political parties did it. They are all guilty.
From the Blair administration which brought in Horizon and overrode concerns about Fujitsu. Then there was Jack Straw's wife, Alice Perkins, who was Chairman of the Post Office when this matter started to come to light. After Ed Davey, there was Jo Swinson, who was useless (No surprise.) Then the Conservatives, who awarded Paula Vennells her CBE. Not to mention Education Secretary Gillian Keegan's husband with his Post Office IT background and then head of Fujitsu in the UK. Now Rishi Sunaks' in-laws'company, it is alleged, have business dealings with Fujitsu.
Indeed. And notice the classic NU10K silence about it - it could mean a swathe of Proper People catching it in the neck.
The guilt parties here are -
1) All the ministers responsible for the Post Office through the period in question (All three main parties). 2) The senior civil servants who went along with the bullshit. 3) The management at the Post Office 4) The legal unit at the Post Office 5) Fujitsu - from the developers who coded shit, to the managers who sold shit.
That list is Too Big To Fail.
Bit like the vast list of prosecutions & firings over Rotherham.
Remind me again who was DPP that stood by and allowed these poor people to be prosecuted? Not Ed!
If any Party Leader needs to consider their position it is not Ed Davey.
I see implicating Starmer as a massive opportunity for Rishi. Even if it is a false narrative it will gain massive traction.
Implicate both...
Is this the first black swan ahead of the election - where Rishi gets to expedite justice for the poor Post Office folk shafted by Davey and Starmer?
(Probably not. But people are talking about it - and only Rishi has the opportunity to come out of it smelling of roses.)
Why on earth do you keep on saying Starmer is responsible for this. The Post Office brought their own prosecutions...
It's getting to the point where I will treat your posts as as stupid as a HYUFD one...
But it *must* be Starmer. He is a bad'un. Both utterly inconsequential with no plan and no policies, and the man who will wreck the country. A man So Bad that as DPP he failed to stop these private prosecutions.
Implicating Starmer also moves the light away from Sir Ed.
lolol - the only reason the light is over Davey is because desperate Tories sellotaped it there.
As I said, I do have to giggle. Is that what is going to save them? Really? That all that's left? The big play?
The reason that Davey has a bit of problem isn't down to the Tories/Aliens/Illuminati etc.
It's just that as the scandal entered the public consciousness, he is the *first* Minister responsible for the Post Office *found* to have told the SPMs to bugger off. In writing.
Hopefully, a sequence of others from the Tories and Labour will also be in the shit.
It’s a scandal that affects politicians of all colours, it’s just that the the yellow team now has their key player in the scandal as party leader, and were hoping to run an election campaign on being whiter than white when compared to the blue team.
Andrew Neil makes a good point here - rsther than trying to smear other politicians, the Tories could earn a lot of brownie points with voters by paying out the sub masters in full immediately.
When you think of all the money wasted on PPE & furlough, it would not be that costly and could be the Black Swan they are looking for
Too much “business-as-usual” in Rishi Sunak’s remarks about the sub-postmasters this morning. He doesn’t get the scale of the national outrage. He should have announced Alan Johnson as head of new compensation agency, with all claims generously settled this year and bill sent to Post Office. Plus instructed government lawyers to resolve all miscarriages of justice this year too, with additional compensation. And encouraged NCA to pursue criminal charges against Post Office executives.
The Mail on Sunday are beginning to notice Sir Keir’s Achilles heel.
“Starmer won the Labour leadership early in 2020 on an undiluted Corbynista platform which included all the major policies of Jeremy Corbyn's 2019 election manifesto (such as widespread nationalisation and abolition of university tuition fees), encapsulated in a ten-point plan.
In a BBC TV interview he assured me these weren't just promises, they were 'pledges' he was making to Labour members and the British people.
Every one, of course, has since been junked, most of them not long after he was elected leader.
For him now to rail against broken Tory promises and the 'political cynicism' that has engendered is rather like Satan setting his face against sin. It is simply not credible. If Starmer is our next prime minister — and I still regard that as the odds-on result come the election — then he will take power with the unique distinction of an opposition leader who has broken more promises and executed more U-turns out of power than most governments manage in office.”
Bit thin really from Brillo. When Sir Keir took over it was commonly assumed that the Tories would win at least one more general election - possibly several more when the fruits of Brexit came pouring in - so Sir Keir can be forgiven for being a bit flippant with the content of the next Labour manifesto, which would never to be implemented. The subsequent Tory implosion meant he had to get real and quickly.
So often though he has talked of things as ‘matters of principle’ before U-Turning . I know he’s calling things ‘Missions’ rather than ‘pledges’ now, presumably as they are easier to back away from, but his form is there for all to see
On topic. 😇 The way Sunday Times has hilariously skewed this to focus in Lib Dem’s, does suggest this election just wants to get dirty, doesn’t it? You suspect those strategists surrounding Sunak, whose Shareprice and next gig depends on credible results, won’t hesitate to go Dirty if the polls don’t tighten.
But Everyone’s got plenty of silage to throw. 😧
Davey helped screw the stitched up Post Office Managers in the biggest cruelest scandal of all time?
As head of the CPS and director of Public Prosecutions, Starmer started with an open file of Saville, ended with the Saville file closed down, and didn’t get it reopened?
And Rishi Sunak - who ran the Treasury at the time of covid - profited from a surge in the share price of the Moderna vaccine through a blind trust, so one of his own MPs has publicly claimed. 😯 (if true, any MP knowing this before installing Sunak as leader, should never have installed him - it will be many more than just Sunak in deep trouble).
But from political-betting point of view, Does successfully predicting a very dirty election help us get ahead of the game? Does a very dirty election level a playing field, suppress overall vote, so a great option for those coming from behind? Or will “gutter politics” not really benefit anyone or reshape a result? Could any of these dirty attacks really breakthrough and turn the election, or even spectacularly backfire and lose votes?
For example, the Sunday Times story today, smearing Lib Dem’s on behalf of Tories? It’s already encouraging the response: where were the senior partners in the coalition? If PO scandal hurts Lib Dem’s, it will certainly hurt Tories too, perhaps more so as the senior government partner - questions for Osborne, questions for Cameron current Foreign Secretary. As the Coalition souvenir Mug showed us, both parties were cheeks of the same governmental arse.
Especially as Sunak today showed as much understanding of this scandal, (everyone in the country is now expert on, not just Cyclefree) to tell us that it was all over in the 1990s? 😧
The election is 2nd May. The avalanche of shit being thrown around is a clear sign that they want to smear as many people as possible before bringing a Big Tax Giveaway to the table to make only the Tories look good.
It is going to be the nastiest campaign ever. The Tories are about to be cut off from their access to public money. Lining Tory pockets is the last remaining purpose in being the government and they will keep fighting to the last to keep their noses in the trough.
And then we come back to comparisons with 1997. In that election, Major decided there was a line he wasn't prepared to cross- the Faust PPB that never was.
Major lost big, of course, but kept some personal dignity.
Sunak's harder to read. He's still got the rabid bits of the press on side, but they're way less useful than they were A Very Long Time Ago. And he personally sounds rubbish when he tries to be attack dog-y. Can he really leave all that to the hired helps?
Besides, suppose Rishi does pull it off and win. Then he's got to deal with all the nonsense he's creating for the next government.
In retrospect, Conservatives now think Major holding on till last minute gave him a worse result than he could have got earlier. I wasn’t around, but I read it on sky yesterday.
But the main lesson from mud slinging in politics is you are as much likely to end up covered in it yourself - and this PO scandal is excellent example of if one of Cameron’s ministers has questions to answer, Cameron and his government has questions to answer.
And Cameron is back in Government so this is all Rishi's fault...
I think you are spot on Eek. I think the one in most Danger from the peoples latent anger over this scandal is the current Primeminister. He has the power, he’s the one in political spotlight, he is the one who now must be seen to be doing something - but the inquiry isn’t even reporting till later in the year, so what exactly can he do before the report? Not only that, but Sunak was all over the shop on this in interviews this morning.
Feeding this story to the Sunday Times, might have been the team around Sunak lurching into self defence, distraction, chaff mode. Only to buy them some time though.
As soon as I saw the Sunday Times front page I posted to PB “why are they only showing Lib Dem’s?” It was peculiar spin on it, it just made no sense at all, Straight away I thought, how long is this bizarre line of spin going to hold for? the Tory’s have controlled every government since 2010, if its fault of libdems in Cameron’s government 14 years ago, how can Tories not share that? Since over years evidence has mounted up, Tories have been in government alone for the last 9 years.
The anger of the people is going to be very real over the coming weeks, and exactly what Rishi Sunak does about it and action he announces is going to be very interesting. Election betting wise This could knock pre election swingback to government right on the head. 😟
As for Sunak, whoever is briefing him needs sacking.
Sunak talks like the intern who's wandered into the office, just managed to work out where the canteen & loos are & has only the vaguest idea what's going on & what he's meant to be doing.
It's beyond pathetic.
He was quite comprehensively lying this morning. This thread from a BMA negotiator explains how:
Just finished the whole thing. Exceptionally good TV in terms of what it aimed to do: explain a horrible injustice, make you feel angry, tell the nation what happened
I reckon Davey is terminally damaged. Will struggle on but this now hangs around him. All the post office bigwigs are in danger of going to jail
On the upside this shows that - slowly, belatedly - British democracy and justice still kinda works. The 4th estate did its job. Journalists listened to a story and wrote it. Then tv came alone and shamed the powers that be (via a brilliant scriptwriter)
That’s something to cheer amidst what is still a pretty bleak tale. I apologise to all subpostmasters on PB for yawningly belittling this story
You owe me a drink or two when we meet.
You still have that visit to West Cumbria to do and the picnic on the beach I promised you.
I recently visited your beach. Some funny rules in the Gents...
Is not this standard UK practice? Think I saw more than one guy doing this in the jacks, believe it was a dive pub . . . in posher part of Mayfair . . .
Reminded of the Welsh pub somewhere in Brycheiniog or Sir Trefaldwyn where the urinals were an open roofed enclosure with a concrete floor and a hole to drain in the corner. Boot washing was automatic.
Just finished the whole thing. Exceptionally good TV in terms of what it aimed to do: explain a horrible injustice, make you feel angry, tell the nation what happened
I reckon Davey is terminally damaged. Will struggle on but this now hangs around him. All the post office bigwigs are in danger of going to jail
On the upside this shows that - slowly, belatedly - British democracy and justice still kinda works. The 4th estate did its job. Journalists listened to a story and wrote it. Then tv came alone and shamed the powers that be (via a brilliant scriptwriter)
That’s something to cheer amidst what is still a pretty bleak tale. I apologise to all subpostmasters on PB for yawningly belittling this story
You owe me a drink or two when we meet.
You still have that visit to West Cumbria to do and the picnic on the beach I promised you.
I recently visited your beach. Some funny rules in the Gents...
Is not this standard UK practice? Think I saw more than one guy doing this in the jacks, believe it was a dive pub . . . in posher part of Mayfair . . .
I shall not post the picture, but what amused me most was the fact that this sign was stuck to the wall above an 8ft long trough urinal, with a automatically timed flush.
I am reminded of the Not the Nine O'clock News "Now wash your hands" sketch.
Just finished the whole thing. Exceptionally good TV in terms of what it aimed to do: explain a horrible injustice, make you feel angry, tell the nation what happened
I reckon Davey is terminally damaged. Will struggle on but this now hangs around him. All the post office bigwigs are in danger of going to jail
On the upside this shows that - slowly, belatedly - British democracy and justice still kinda works. The 4th estate did its job. Journalists listened to a story and wrote it. Then tv came alone and shamed the powers that be (via a brilliant scriptwriter)
That’s something to cheer amidst what is still a pretty bleak tale. I apologise to all subpostmasters on PB for yawningly belittling this story
You owe me a drink or two when we meet.
You still have that visit to West Cumbria to do and the picnic on the beach I promised you.
I recently visited your beach. Some funny rules in the Gents...
And you didn't say hello?! How naughty of you.
I wouldn't know about the Gents, what with me being a woman and all. I'd have thought the urinals might be quite a convenient place to wash boots, what with them being nearer to the ground. Depends what is on the boots, I suppose.
Further up the coast there was a sign at a petrol state politely asking people not to turn up in their dressing gowns. When I asked the lady behind the counter, whether this was for real she said:
"Oh yes. We get men in their dressing gowns. We've seen it all."
"I do hope not!" I replied.
She laughed.
We have to make our own entertainment here, you know.
The Mail on Sunday are beginning to notice Sir Keir’s Achilles heel.
“Starmer won the Labour leadership early in 2020 on an undiluted Corbynista platform which included all the major policies of Jeremy Corbyn's 2019 election manifesto (such as widespread nationalisation and abolition of university tuition fees), encapsulated in a ten-point plan.
In a BBC TV interview he assured me these weren't just promises, they were 'pledges' he was making to Labour members and the British people.
Every one, of course, has since been junked, most of them not long after he was elected leader.
For him now to rail against broken Tory promises and the 'political cynicism' that has engendered is rather like Satan setting his face against sin. It is simply not credible. If Starmer is our next prime minister — and I still regard that as the odds-on result come the election — then he will take power with the unique distinction of an opposition leader who has broken more promises and executed more U-turns out of power than most governments manage in office.”
I think the voters quite like it when a politician breaks their promises to a special interest group - like their own party, or the DUP - especially when they're still in control afterwards. People don't generalise to thinking that the politician will later shaft them, they seem to believe that they're different, and the politician will shaft other interest groups in order to keep their promises to the voter.
So they key question is whether they believe the politician is on their side, and shafting all the right other people.
Where it could be dangerous for SKS is if his pledges to the electorate have the air of being drafted by a clumsy lawyer, with the get-out clauses for failing them plain for all to see.
On topic, I think this is a problem for the Liberal Democrats as part of their leitmotif is that they're unlike the big two and stand up for the little guy. Unfortunately, you've got a letter from Ed Davey on the record saying, "not my problem, mate" and that's hard to explain away.
You know it's touched a nerve from the strops one or two of our Lib Dem regulars have thrown on here, going so far as to flag posts that point it out.
They need to have a better answer than that.
I love the way @IanB2 has flagged this too, continuing his strop.
Try not to act like a petulant child, Ian.
Politics is brutal. It comes for us all at times.
I see you've taken my point about a little humility to heart.
I'm not interested in making this about political point scoring.
But, if others are, then I think it's only fair to point out that other parties were involved.
Your previous comment was a very odd way of showing that. On topic, I think this is a problem for the Liberal Democrats .. etc.
I've already said I think Davey should consider resigning. The obvious glee of our resident Tories is just a little distasteful.
But it is not just Sir Ed Davey. It is the political equivalent to Murder on the Orient Express. All the three main political parties did it. They are all guilty.
From the Blair administration which brought in Horizon and overrode concerns about Fujitsu. Then there was Jack Straw's wife, Alice Perkins, who was Chairman of the Post Office when this matter started to come to light. After Ed Davey, there was Jo Swinson, who was useless (No surprise.) Then the Conservatives, who awarded Paula Vennells her CBE. Not to mention Education Secretary Gillian Keegan's husband with his Post Office IT background and then head of Fujitsu in the UK. Now Rishi Sunaks' in-laws'company, it is alleged, have business dealings with Fujitsu.
Indeed. And notice the classic NU10K silence about it - it could mean a swathe of Proper People catching it in the neck.
The guilt parties here are -
1) All the ministers responsible for the Post Office through the period in question (All three main parties). 2) The senior civil servants who went along with the bullshit. 3) The management at the Post Office 4) The legal unit at the Post Office 5) Fujitsu - from the developers who coded shit, to the managers who sold shit.
That list is Too Big To Fail.
Bit like the vast list of prosecutions & firings over Rotherham.
Agree, so what will probably happen is all the subpostmasters will be exonerated (I hope) but get very little in the way of compensation and some minor small fry will be thrown to the wolves as the scapegoat.
On topic, I think this is a problem for the Liberal Democrats as part of their leitmotif is that they're unlike the big two and stand up for the little guy. Unfortunately, you've got a letter from Ed Davey on the record saying, "not my problem, mate" and that's hard to explain away.
You know it's touched a nerve from the strops one or two of our Lib Dem regulars have thrown on here, going so far as to flag posts that point it out.
They need to have a better answer than that.
I love the way @IanB2 has flagged this too, continuing his strop.
Try not to act like a petulant child, Ian.
Politics is brutal. It comes for us all at times.
I see you've taken my point about a little humility to heart.
I'm not interested in making this about political point scoring.
But, if others are, then I think it's only fair to point out that other parties were involved.
Your previous comment was a very odd way of showing that. On topic, I think this is a problem for the Liberal Democrats .. etc.
I've already said I think Davey should consider resigning. The obvious glee of our resident Tories is just a little distasteful.
I haven't actually called for his resignation.
I just think it's a problem for him and the Liberal Democrats.
There's no glee from me. This is nothing to be gleeful about.
Remind me again who was DPP that stood by and allowed these poor people to be prosecuted? Not Ed!
If any Party Leader needs to consider their position it is not Ed Davey.
I see implicating Starmer as a massive opportunity for Rishi. Even if it is a false narrative it will gain massive traction.
Implicate both...
Is this the first black swan ahead of the election - where Rishi gets to expedite justice for the poor Post Office folk shafted by Davey and Starmer?
(Probably not. But people are talking about it - and only Rishi has the opportunity to come out of it smelling of roses.)
Why on earth do you keep on saying Starmer is responsible for this. The Post Office brought their own prosecutions...
It's getting to the point where I will treat your posts as as stupid as a HYUFD one...
But it *must* be Starmer. He is a bad'un. Both utterly inconsequential with no plan and no policies, and the man who will wreck the country. A man So Bad that as DPP he failed to stop these private prosecutions.
Implicating Starmer also moves the light away from Sir Ed.
lolol - the only reason the light is over Davey is because desperate Tories sellotaped it there.
As I said, I do have to giggle. Is that what is going to save them? Really? That all that's left? The big play?
The reason that Davey has a bit of problem isn't down to the Tories/Aliens/Illuminati etc.
It's just that as the scandal entered the public consciousness, he is the *first* Minister responsible for the Post Office *found* to have told the SPMs to bugger off. In writing.
Hopefully, a sequence of others from the Tories and Labour will also be in the shit.
It’s a scandal that affects politicians of all colours, it’s just that the the yellow team now has their key player in the scandal as party leader, and were hoping to run an election campaign on being whiter than white when compared to the blue team.
Come on - that's just being silly.
All the LDs (and Labour) need to stand on is the record of Conservative-led Government since 2010 (and especially since 2019).
Hope this happens but IMO more likely to be a London Mayoral bid.
JmRoyle #LFC #YNWA #BLM #GTTO @MyArrse Jeremy Corbyn tipped to launch ‘new political party’ ahead of General Election. The MP for Islington North is reportedly planning something seismic.
That is the black swan we have all been waiting for! Jezza delivers another Conservative Government and the utterly useless Susan Hall.
Just finished the whole thing. Exceptionally good TV in terms of what it aimed to do: explain a horrible injustice, make you feel angry, tell the nation what happened
I reckon Davey is terminally damaged. Will struggle on but this now hangs around him. All the post office bigwigs are in danger of going to jail
On the upside this shows that - slowly, belatedly - British democracy and justice still kinda works. The 4th estate did its job. Journalists listened to a story and wrote it. Then tv came alone and shamed the powers that be (via a brilliant scriptwriter)
That’s something to cheer amidst what is still a pretty bleak tale. I apologise to all subpostmasters on PB for yawningly belittling this story
You owe me a drink or two when we meet.
You still have that visit to West Cumbria to do and the picnic on the beach I promised you.
I recently visited your beach. Some funny rules in the Gents...
Is not this standard UK practice? Think I saw more than one guy doing this in the jacks, believe it was a dive pub . . . in posher part of Mayfair . . .
I shall not post the picture, but what amused me most was the fact that this sign was stuck to the wall above an 8ft long trough urinal, with a automatically timed flush.
At Edale the loos have the same sign. Also not allowed to wash bikes in the urinals.
Presumably because of problems from people actually doing it!
But it is not just Sir Ed Davey. It is the political equivalent to Murder on the Orient Express. All the three main political parties did it. They are all guilty.
From the Blair administration which brought in Horizon and overrode concerns about Fujitsu. Then there was Jack Straw's wife, Alice Perkins, who was Chairman of the Post Office when this matter started to come to light. After Ed Davey, there was Jo Swinson, who was useless (No surprise.) Then the Conservatives, who awarded Paula Vennells her CBE. Not to mention Education Secretary Gillian Keegan's husband with his Post Office IT background and then head of Fujitsu in the UK. Now Rishi Sunaks' in-laws'company, it is alleged, have business dealings with Fujitsu.
Indeed. And notice the classic NU10K silence about it - it could mean a swathe of Proper People catching it in the neck.
The guilt parties here are -
1) All the ministers responsible for the Post Office through the period in question (All three main parties). 2) The senior civil servants who went along with the bullshit. 3) The management at the Post Office 4) The legal unit at the Post Office 5) Fujitsu - from the developers who coded shit, to the managers who sold shit.
That list is Too Big To Fail.
Bit like the vast list of prosecutions & firings over Rotherham.
Yes, it's a systemic failure. The best thing is to help the victims and ensure this kind of thing can never happen again.
The politically-motivated witch-hunt achieves nothing and does nothing for the victims.
On topic, there is an obvious agenda by the Tory press to try to pin the blame on the LDs in general and Ed Davey in particular.
It may well do Davey significant damage and if it rumbles on then him standing down in favour of Daisy Cooper might be necessary.
Much as I like Davey, he clearly was one of many who contributed to this becoming such an intractable nightmare for the Sub-posties.
Daisy would be good, and likely to be a distinctive fresh face for the GE. It would also increase the pressure on the Tory ministers to resign for their actions and inactions.
The right wing press do seem to be doing a number on Ed. There's lots they could say about Labour, under whose watch it happened, and about Pat McFadden in particular. Singling out Ed from the 18 or so Postal Affairs Ministers does seem very specific.
Isn't it simpler than that? He is one of the very few Ministers involved who is still active in politics. Of all the Business and Postal Affairs Ministers there were, he is the only one left.
I agree that it is a tad unfair. But tough. It is also a tad unfair that people are going after Paula Vennells but not also going after the Chair of the Post Office at the same time - one Alice Perkins - who was present at the Board meetings which made the decisions which enabled the cover up, like the sacking of Second Sight and so on.
Politics is brutal. But nowhere near as brutal as what was done to the subpostmasters.
As I said earlier, it would be interesting if Davey decided to resign. As it then puts Massive Pressure on the Tories. After all, who has been solely in charge as the PO as endlessly delayed, obsfucated and denied? Even today they do it.
I haven't said much on this but the ones causing the delays are the lawyers whose fees are in the millions
I understand Chalk is to have a meeting tomorrow to speed up absolving all SPMs from any guilt
As for Davey this is just politics, but the first and for once it is the Lib Dems in the spotlight and their supporters do not like it
All those Arsenal fans that said Arteta was at Klopp's level.
Still just the one loss for Liverpool versus everyone else this season? Amazing. What a lot of heart they play with. And Liverpool fans are best 12th man around, home and away.
Yes I agree with your post - the limitations of Arteta are being found out. 1) no rotation for freshness means fielding tired, jaded players not 100% fit. 2) no trust in youth. 3) trying to get by without a proper number 9. 4). Faith in Havertz who has been a disaster, colossal waste of money, could have got Vlahovic for that price, Havertz was a complete clown on pitch today. 5) plan A was Martinelli and Saka one on ones, worked last year but it’s been sussed neither have been up against just one defender since the last home CL game. So, what’s plan B Arteta?
Klopp has complete rebuilt Liverpool into a strong side. Though Liverpool were second best today, the teams spirit is their strength, and that, and this result, is owned by Klopp. But they have to return Emirates in a couple of weeks for an even more important match than this one. And the rest of this season can still go pear shaped for Liverpool despite Klopp, they might not yet secure 2nd to Man City, or even top 4, as many new players havn’t settled and gelled yet.
Man City have the title sown up because of one word. Rodri.
Ignoring the Starmer line being spun by some Tories on here (which to be honest I find a little tasteless as well as pointless), surely the bigger point is that we need to have a change of the law to prevent anyone but the CPS launching criminal prosecutions. The system has been shown to be utterly corrupt and running counter to the basic principles of justice.
I don't know which other organisations are still able to launch their own private criminal prosecutions but I would suggest it is long past the time when this practice ended.
Andrew Neil makes a good point here - rsther than trying to smear other politicians, the Tories could earn a lot of brownie points with voters by paying out the sub masters in full immediately.
When you think of all the money wasted on PPE & furlough, it would not be that costly and could be the Black Swan they are looking for
Too much “business-as-usual” in Rishi Sunak’s remarks about the sub-postmasters this morning. He doesn’t get the scale of the national outrage. He should have announced Alan Johnson as head of new compensation agency, with all claims generously settled this year and bill sent to Post Office. Plus instructed government lawyers to resolve all miscarriages of justice this year too, with additional compensation. And encouraged NCA to pursue criminal charges against Post Office executives.
Ignoring the Starmer line being spun by some Tories on here (which to be honest I find a little tasteless as well as pointless), surely the bigger point is that we need to have a change of the law to prevent anyone but the CPS launching criminal prosecutions. The system has been shown to be utterly corrupt and running counter to the basic principles of justice.
I don't know which other organisations are still able to launch their own private criminal prosecutions but I would suggest it is long past the time when this practice ended.
Hope this happens but IMO more likely to be a London Mayoral bid.
JmRoyle #LFC #YNWA #BLM #GTTO @MyArrse Jeremy Corbyn tipped to launch ‘new political party’ ahead of General Election. The MP for Islington North is reportedly planning something seismic.
That is the black swan we have all been waiting for! Jezza delivers another Conservative Government and the utterly useless Susan Hall.
Socialism in action. Perpetual opposition.
Is that a very clever play on “perpetual revolution” or did you just get it wrong?
Hope this happens but IMO more likely to be a London Mayoral bid.
JmRoyle #LFC #YNWA #BLM #GTTO @MyArrse Jeremy Corbyn tipped to launch ‘new political party’ ahead of General Election. The MP for Islington North is reportedly planning something seismic.
That is the black swan we have all been waiting for! Jezza delivers another Conservative Government and the utterly useless Susan Hall.
Socialism in action. Perpetual opposition.
I think even Jeremy Cobyn would be hard pressed to deliver a Tory government at this point.
On topic, I think this is a problem for the Liberal Democrats as part of their leitmotif is that they're unlike the big two and stand up for the little guy. Unfortunately, you've got a letter from Ed Davey on the record saying, "not my problem, mate" and that's hard to explain away.
You know it's touched a nerve from the strops one or two of our Lib Dem regulars have thrown on here, going so far as to flag posts that point it out.
They need to have a better answer than that.
I love the way @IanB2 has flagged this too, continuing his strop.
Try not to act like a petulant child, Ian.
Politics is brutal. It comes for us all at times.
I see you've taken my point about a little humility to heart.
I'm not interested in making this about political point scoring.
But, if others are, then I think it's only fair to point out that other parties were involved.
Your previous comment was a very odd way of showing that. On topic, I think this is a problem for the Liberal Democrats .. etc.
I've already said I think Davey should consider resigning. The obvious glee of our resident Tories is just a little distasteful.
I haven't actually called for his resignation.
I just think it's a problem for him and the Liberal Democrats.
There's no glee from me. This is nothing to be gleeful about.
I think it is a problem for him too, as I mentioned at the beginning of the thread.
Though Davey standing down isn't the end of the world. Daisy is a good performer and it would put pressure on all the Tories who have done sweet FA about the PO Scandal since the successful appeals in 2018.
On topic, I think this is a problem for the Liberal Democrats as part of their leitmotif is that they're unlike the big two and stand up for the little guy. Unfortunately, you've got a letter from Ed Davey on the record saying, "not my problem, mate" and that's hard to explain away.
You know it's touched a nerve from the strops one or two of our Lib Dem regulars have thrown on here, going so far as to flag posts that point it out.
They need to have a better answer than that.
Its made me laugh, but I'm not sure its touched a nerve. Davey receives a letter sent on his first day as responsible minister, asks the civil servants what the crack is, and sends a letter with their response 11 days into his role.
I know the Tories are desperate to do something, anything, to turn things around. But if thats all there is then the nerve thats been touched is theirs. Pants being shat at the coming loss of public money they can stuff into their pockets.
Hope this happens but IMO more likely to be a London Mayoral bid.
JmRoyle #LFC #YNWA #BLM #GTTO @MyArrse Jeremy Corbyn tipped to launch ‘new political party’ ahead of General Election. The MP for Islington North is reportedly planning something seismic.
That is the black swan we have all been waiting for! Jezza delivers another Conservative Government and the utterly useless Susan Hall.
Socialism in action. Perpetual opposition.
Is that a very clever play on “perpetual revolution” or did you just get it wrong?
No and no. As any fule kno, Jeremy Corbyn thrives on opposition. He has never been interested in Government. When he was an MP in the 1997 to 2010 Parliaments he voted with the Conservative Opposition at every conceivable opportunity.
The Mail on Sunday are beginning to notice Sir Keir’s Achilles heel.
“Starmer won the Labour leadership early in 2020 on an undiluted Corbynista platform which included all the major policies of Jeremy Corbyn's 2019 election manifesto (such as widespread nationalisation and abolition of university tuition fees), encapsulated in a ten-point plan.
In a BBC TV interview he assured me these weren't just promises, they were 'pledges' he was making to Labour members and the British people.
Every one, of course, has since been junked, most of them not long after he was elected leader.
For him now to rail against broken Tory promises and the 'political cynicism' that has engendered is rather like Satan setting his face against sin. It is simply not credible. If Starmer is our next prime minister — and I still regard that as the odds-on result come the election — then he will take power with the unique distinction of an opposition leader who has broken more promises and executed more U-turns out of power than most governments manage in office.”
I think the voters quite like it when a politician breaks their promises to a special interest group - like their own party, or the DUP - especially when they're still in control afterwards. People don't generalise to thinking that the politician will later shaft them, they seem to believe that they're different, and the politician will shaft other interest groups in order to keep their promises to the voter.
So they key question is whether they believe the politician is on their side, and shafting all the right other people.
Where it could be dangerous for SKS is if his pledges to the electorate have the air of being drafted by a clumsy lawyer, with the get-out clauses for failing them plain for all to see.
I think calling them ‘Missions’ is a bit of a giveaway; they must have realised he broke all his pledges from the leadership campaign so that word would be kryptonite ’Missions’ can be ‘aborted’ whilst ‘pledges’ can only be ‘unfulfilled’ or ‘broken’
Just finished the whole thing. Exceptionally good TV in terms of what it aimed to do: explain a horrible injustice, make you feel angry, tell the nation what happened
I reckon Davey is terminally damaged. Will struggle on but this now hangs around him. All the post office bigwigs are in danger of going to jail
On the upside this shows that - slowly, belatedly - British democracy and justice still kinda works. The 4th estate did its job. Journalists listened to a story and wrote it. Then tv came alone and shamed the powers that be (via a brilliant scriptwriter)
That’s something to cheer amidst what is still a pretty bleak tale. I apologise to all subpostmasters on PB for yawningly belittling this story
You owe me a drink or two when we meet.
You still have that visit to West Cumbria to do and the picnic on the beach I promised you.
I recently visited your beach. Some funny rules in the Gents...
Is not this standard UK practice? Think I saw more than one guy doing this in the jacks, believe it was a dive pub . . . in posher part of Mayfair . . .
I shall not post the picture, but what amused me most was the fact that this sign was stuck to the wall above an 8ft long trough urinal, with a automatically timed flush.
At Edale the loos have the same sign. Also not allowed to wash bikes in the urinals.
Presumably because of problems from people actually doing it!
Woke nonsense the lot of it. Urinals are the ideal receptacle for any manner of manly washing activities.
They only clag up because of those pathetic snowflake urine interferometer things - P-waves. What was wrong, I ask you, with a good drizzle of bounce back wee on your pants from a hearty urine stream?
Damn things didn't clag up before you had that floppy plastic brush nonsense.
On topic, I think this is a problem for the Liberal Democrats as part of their leitmotif is that they're unlike the big two and stand up for the little guy. Unfortunately, you've got a letter from Ed Davey on the record saying, "not my problem, mate" and that's hard to explain away.
You know it's touched a nerve from the strops one or two of our Lib Dem regulars have thrown on here, going so far as to flag posts that point it out.
They need to have a better answer than that.
I love the way @IanB2 has flagged this too, continuing his strop.
Try not to act like a petulant child, Ian.
Politics is brutal. It comes for us all at times.
Don’t forget he spent his career at the Post Office so he has a lot of emotional involvement in the case…
On topic. 😇 The way Sunday Times has hilariously skewed this to focus in Lib Dem’s, does suggest this election just wants to get dirty, doesn’t it? You suspect those strategists surrounding Sunak, whose Shareprice and next gig depends on credible results, won’t hesitate to go Dirty if the polls don’t tighten.
But Everyone’s got plenty of silage to throw. 😧
Davey helped screw the stitched up Post Office Managers in the biggest cruelest scandal of all time?
As head of the CPS and director of Public Prosecutions, Starmer started with an open file of Saville, ended with the Saville file closed down, and didn’t get it reopened?
And Rishi Sunak - who ran the Treasury at the time of covid - profited from a surge in the share price of the Moderna vaccine through a blind trust, so one of his own MPs has publicly claimed. 😯 (if true, any MP knowing this before installing Sunak as leader, should never have installed him - it will be many more than just Sunak in deep trouble).
But from political-betting point of view, Does successfully predicting a very dirty election help us get ahead of the game? Does a very dirty election level a playing field, suppress overall vote, so a great option for those coming from behind? Or will “gutter politics” not really benefit anyone or reshape a result? Could any of these dirty attacks really breakthrough and turn the election, or even spectacularly backfire and lose votes?
For example, the Sunday Times story today, smearing Lib Dem’s on behalf of Tories? It’s already encouraging the response: where were the senior partners in the coalition? If PO scandal hurts Lib Dem’s, it will certainly hurt Tories too, perhaps more so as the senior government partner - questions for Osborne, questions for Cameron current Foreign Secretary. As the Coalition souvenir Mug showed us, both parties were cheeks of the same governmental arse.
Especially as Sunak today showed as much understanding of this scandal, (everyone in the country is now expert on, not just Cyclefree) to tell us that it was all over in the 1990s? 😧
The election is 2nd May. The avalanche of shit being thrown around is a clear sign that they want to smear as many people as possible before bringing a Big Tax Giveaway to the table to make only the Tories look good.
It is going to be the nastiest campaign ever. The Tories are about to be cut off from their access to public money. Lining Tory pockets is the last remaining purpose in being the government and they will keep fighting to the last to keep their noses in the trough.
“The election is 2nd May. The avalanche of shit being thrown around is a clear sign that they want to smear as many people as possible before bringing a Big Tax Giveaway to the table to make only the Tories look good.”
Yes. Dirty Tricks Unit and Tax Cut talk now on steroids, add it to the list of reasons it is May 2nd. 🙂
Reasons for May 2nd Inflation battle won still fresh in minds Tax cuts and upbeat “right track - turning corner” budget still a bit fresh in pocket and minds May 2nd, coinciding with local and Mayor elections, allows to be have Uxbridge style election focus, on taxes on motorist, and on how Labours Green Contract will screw UK economy and every taxpayer. Avoids this years expected surge in illegal channel crossings, that would be failure impossible to explain Avoids the damning interim covid report publication Avoids credibility and moral shattering set of locals before General Election Avoids mortgage crisis of key voters actually deepening by switching to higher mortgage deals Avoids the predicted doom and gloom of Q3 economic downtown Avoids two year anniversary of Trussterfuck Avoids two year anniversary of PM Sunak, and much reflection how things haven’t got better Avoids opposition fun with “squatting” “frit” narrative, that some believe torpedoed Majors chance of much better result
In favour of June or later Micawberism - something better might turn up, despite all the expert predictions of a conveyer belt of ever increasing worse news coming on from 1st June. Courageously presumes voters still open minded who to vote for, and actually interested in hearing substance from Labour before deciding 🤣 Anything else? 😃
In favour of later: Rishi is a nervous Nellie who suffers from analysis paralysis
On topic, I think this is a problem for the Liberal Democrats as part of their leitmotif is that they're unlike the big two and stand up for the little guy. Unfortunately, you've got a letter from Ed Davey on the record saying, "not my problem, mate" and that's hard to explain away.
You know it's touched a nerve from the strops one or two of our Lib Dem regulars have thrown on here, going so far as to flag posts that point it out.
They need to have a better answer than that.
Its made me laugh, but I'm not sure its touched a nerve. Davey receives a letter sent on his first day as responsible minister, asks the civil servants what the crack is, and sends a letter with their response 11 days into his role.
I know the Tories are desperate to do something, anything, to turn things around. But if thats all there is then the nerve thats been touched is theirs. Pants being shat at the coming loss of public money they can stuff into their pockets.
If you are explaining you are losing
I’m not saying it’s fair or right.
"If you are explaining you are losing".
Well, if that's true, on the basis of this morning's interview, Sunak is going to lead the Conservatives to the biggest defeat since the Emperor Valens at Adrianople (apologies for the modern reference, @TSE)
Andrew Neil makes a good point here - rsther than trying to smear other politicians, the Tories could earn a lot of brownie points with voters by paying out the sub masters in full immediately.
When you think of all the money wasted on PPE & furlough, it would not be that costly and could be the Black Swan they are looking for
Too much “business-as-usual” in Rishi Sunak’s remarks about the sub-postmasters this morning. He doesn’t get the scale of the national outrage. He should have announced Alan Johnson as head of new compensation agency, with all claims generously settled this year and bill sent to Post Office. Plus instructed government lawyers to resolve all miscarriages of justice this year too, with additional compensation. And encouraged NCA to pursue criminal charges against Post Office executives.
But it is not just Sir Ed Davey. It is the political equivalent to Murder on the Orient Express. All the three main political parties did it. They are all guilty.
From the Blair administration which brought in Horizon and overrode concerns about Fujitsu. Then there was Jack Straw's wife, Alice Perkins, who was Chairman of the Post Office when this matter started to come to light. After Ed Davey, there was Jo Swinson, who was useless (No surprise.) Then the Conservatives, who awarded Paula Vennells her CBE. Not to mention Education Secretary Gillian Keegan's husband with his Post Office IT background and then head of Fujitsu in the UK. Now Rishi Sunaks' in-laws'company, it is alleged, have business dealings with Fujitsu.
Indeed. And notice the classic NU10K silence about it - it could mean a swathe of Proper People catching it in the neck.
The guilt parties here are -
1) All the ministers responsible for the Post Office through the period in question (All three main parties). 2) The senior civil servants who went along with the bullshit. 3) The management at the Post Office 4) The legal unit at the Post Office 5) Fujitsu - from the developers who coded shit, to the managers who sold shit.
That list is Too Big To Fail.
Bit like the vast list of prosecutions & firings over Rotherham.
Agree, so what will probably happen is all the subpostmasters will be exonerated (I hope) but get very little in the way of compensation and some minor small fry will be thrown to the wolves as the scapegoat.
And it will probably end there.
I think the public outrage might get to the "Decent compensation" level.
But no-one actually responsible will pay an actual penalty. A few politicians might be made to resign - except they nearly are all in other jobs now. Holding permanent officials above a certain grade responsible for their actions would be a violation of the Rules Of NU10K - unless it is in that move-to-a-better-job-with-more-money style of punishment.
The police will report in a year or 2 that prosecutions are not possible due to passage of time and are not in the public interest.
The Mail on Sunday are beginning to notice Sir Keir’s Achilles heel.
“Starmer won the Labour leadership early in 2020 on an undiluted Corbynista platform which included all the major policies of Jeremy Corbyn's 2019 election manifesto (such as widespread nationalisation and abolition of university tuition fees), encapsulated in a ten-point plan.
In a BBC TV interview he assured me these weren't just promises, they were 'pledges' he was making to Labour members and the British people.
Every one, of course, has since been junked, most of them not long after he was elected leader.
For him now to rail against broken Tory promises and the 'political cynicism' that has engendered is rather like Satan setting his face against sin. It is simply not credible. If Starmer is our next prime minister — and I still regard that as the odds-on result come the election — then he will take power with the unique distinction of an opposition leader who has broken more promises and executed more U-turns out of power than most governments manage in office.”
Whoever is involved there are always two views about this fairly universal phenomenon, which in the case of Starmer was written up in detail and admiringly by the Economist a few months ago.
Those who support where he currently is will draw no attention to it and ascribe it to political reality. Those who don't (the DM etc) will draw attention to the fact that successful politicians appear sincere but are in fact in perpetual zigzag.
Starmer: totally compromised but going to be (OK) PM; Rory: principled but totally outside the corridors of power.
But it is not just Sir Ed Davey. It is the political equivalent to Murder on the Orient Express. All the three main political parties did it. They are all guilty.
From the Blair administration which brought in Horizon and overrode concerns about Fujitsu. Then there was Jack Straw's wife, Alice Perkins, who was Chairman of the Post Office when this matter started to come to light. After Ed Davey, there was Jo Swinson, who was useless (No surprise.) Then the Conservatives, who awarded Paula Vennells her CBE. Not to mention Education Secretary Gillian Keegan's husband with his Post Office IT background and then head of Fujitsu in the UK. Now Rishi Sunaks' in-laws'company, it is alleged, have business dealings with Fujitsu.
Indeed. And notice the classic NU10K silence about it - it could mean a swathe of Proper People catching it in the neck.
The guilt parties here are -
1) All the ministers responsible for the Post Office through the period in question (All three main parties). 2) The senior civil servants who went along with the bullshit. 3) The management at the Post Office 4) The legal unit at the Post Office 5) Fujitsu - from the developers who coded shit, to the managers who sold shit.
That list is Too Big To Fail.
Bit like the vast list of prosecutions & firings over Rotherham.
Yes, it's a systemic failure. The best thing is to help the victims and ensure this kind of thing can never happen again.
The politically-motivated witch-hunt achieves nothing and does nothing for the victims.
No, your comment is a variation on the "Too big an issue for people to be actually responsible for anything they've been responsible for" nonsense.
I want a witch hunt. I want hundreds of prosecutions. I want to see politicians and "public servants" having their lives ruined and sent to prison.
Just as I wanted, over Rotherham, hundreds of people put on the various offender registers - they enable & protected abuse, so they are guilty of abuse.
As for Sunak, whoever is briefing him needs sacking.
Sunak talks like the intern who's wandered into the office, just managed to work out where the canteen & loos are & has only the vaguest idea what's going on & what he's meant to be doing.
It's beyond pathetic.
He was quite comprehensively lying this morning. This thread from a BMA negotiator explains how:
Why does he make such obviously wrong statements? Doesn't he know or doesn't he care?
You are just regurgitating crap from the BMA negotiating committee
- “resolution” is overstating it, but it was good enough that the BMA put the offer to their members. Not sure if they are recommending or not - the “pay settlement” that Sunak is referring to is the offer. NOT how junior doctors have done since 2008 - which is the ridiculous basis for their original claim
I know you have a dog in the hunt here, but to claim that someone is “lying” requires more than “I disagree with him”
It would be ironic if Davey resigns over his (seemingly very minor) role in the Post Office Scandal.
He is the only party leader that every one of the 80+ PB competition entries predicted would remain in place until the GE.
That would be hilarious
Not that hilarious, Davey is one of the good guys.
Now Starmer falling on his sword for his role in the Post Office scandal, now that would be joyous. It couldn't happen to a more venal and disgusting individual, except for perhaps Boris Johnson.
Andrew Neil makes a good point here - rsther than trying to smear other politicians, the Tories could earn a lot of brownie points with voters by paying out the sub masters in full immediately.
When you think of all the money wasted on PPE & furlough, it would not be that costly and could be the Black Swan they are looking for
Too much “business-as-usual” in Rishi Sunak’s remarks about the sub-postmasters this morning. He doesn’t get the scale of the national outrage. He should have announced Alan Johnson as head of new compensation agency, with all claims generously settled this year and bill sent to Post Office. Plus instructed government lawyers to resolve all miscarriages of justice this year too, with additional compensation. And encouraged NCA to pursue criminal charges against Post Office executives.
Hope this happens but IMO more likely to be a London Mayoral bid.
JmRoyle #LFC #YNWA #BLM #GTTO @MyArrse Jeremy Corbyn tipped to launch ‘new political party’ ahead of General Election. The MP for Islington North is reportedly planning something seismic.
That is the black swan we have all been waiting for! Jezza delivers another Conservative Government and the utterly useless Susan Hall.
Socialism in action. Perpetual opposition.
I think even Jeremy Cobyn would be hard pressed to deliver a Tory government at this point.
Reading between the lines of this every time it's trotted out some of Corbyn's remaining and silliest acolytes would like him to start a new party because it would suit them. It would probably attract an influx of cash to do pretty much what they do anyway. Stage rallies and hold meetings where they can give speeches about the glory days.
It won't happen because those with any sense know it would fail, his vanity means he'd rather stay the eternal martyr, and if Palestine were its focus (as inevitably it would be) it would pose a whole new round of difficult questions on why he's had supportive things to say about a host of murderous antisemites.
Oh and his remaining friends in Labour will make it clear that if they're forced to choose between him and their party, there's only one winner - and it ain't a bearded marrow botherer and his far left groupuscule.
He'll stand as an Indy in Islington North, hope for a valedictory win that will act as a swansong and give him a platform to needle Starmer, or take a loss that can be explained as the brave last stand.
Andrew Neil makes a good point here - rsther than trying to smear other politicians, the Tories could earn a lot of brownie points with voters by paying out the sub masters in full immediately.
When you think of all the money wasted on PPE & furlough, it would not be that costly and could be the Black Swan they are looking for
Too much “business-as-usual” in Rishi Sunak’s remarks about the sub-postmasters this morning. He doesn’t get the scale of the national outrage. He should have announced Alan Johnson as head of new compensation agency, with all claims generously settled this year and bill sent to Post Office. Plus instructed government lawyers to resolve all miscarriages of justice this year too, with additional compensation. And encouraged NCA to pursue criminal charges against Post Office executives.
As for Sunak, whoever is briefing him needs sacking.
Sunak talks like the intern who's wandered into the office, just managed to work out where the canteen & loos are & has only the vaguest idea what's going on & what he's meant to be doing.
It's beyond pathetic.
He was quite comprehensively lying this morning. This thread from a BMA negotiator explains how:
Why does he make such obviously wrong statements? Doesn't he know or doesn't he care?
You are just regurgitating crap from the BMA negotiating committee
- “resolution” is overstating it, but it was good enough that the BMA put the offer to their members. Not sure if they are recommending or not - the “pay settlement” that Sunak is referring to is the offer. NOT how junior doctors have done since 2008 - which is the ridiculous basis for their original claim
I know you have a dog in the hunt here, but to claim that someone is “lying” requires more than “I disagree with him”
It's a lie to say it has been settled for Consultants (who have just repeated that strike ballot), and there hasn't been an offer to the SAS grades.
Sunak lied about the impact of strikes on waiting lists too if you look further down that twitter thread.
He is way out of his depth and every interview makes it more obvious. His campaign is going to be one car crash interview after another.
But it is not just Sir Ed Davey. It is the political equivalent to Murder on the Orient Express. All the three main political parties did it. They are all guilty.
From the Blair administration which brought in Horizon and overrode concerns about Fujitsu. Then there was Jack Straw's wife, Alice Perkins, who was Chairman of the Post Office when this matter started to come to light. After Ed Davey, there was Jo Swinson, who was useless (No surprise.) Then the Conservatives, who awarded Paula Vennells her CBE. Not to mention Education Secretary Gillian Keegan's husband with his Post Office IT background and then head of Fujitsu in the UK. Now Rishi Sunaks' in-laws'company, it is alleged, have business dealings with Fujitsu.
Indeed. And notice the classic NU10K silence about it - it could mean a swathe of Proper People catching it in the neck.
The guilt parties here are -
1) All the ministers responsible for the Post Office through the period in question (All three main parties). 2) The senior civil servants who went along with the bullshit. 3) The management at the Post Office 4) The legal unit at the Post Office 5) Fujitsu - from the developers who coded shit, to the managers who sold shit.
That list is Too Big To Fail.
Bit like the vast list of prosecutions & firings over Rotherham.
Yes, it's a systemic failure. The best thing is to help the victims and ensure this kind of thing can never happen again.
The politically-motivated witch-hunt achieves nothing and does nothing for the victims.
It depends what sort of failure. Being generally useless is not mostly a crime though it is quite common. What ordinary folks like us are finding hard to credit is different.
Is it really true that the PO went through all these hundreds of cases with all relevant parties in every case genuinely believing that the appearance of the evidence actually matched the reality claimed of criminal conduct? Did no-one even wonder, smell a rat, ask why hundreds of exemplary people were stealing thousands and all these cases were suddenly emerging.
Did no auditor ever spot that non-existent cash was being generated by a system which they couldn't locate in the actual world.
On topic, I think this is a problem for the Liberal Democrats as part of their leitmotif is that they're unlike the big two and stand up for the little guy. Unfortunately, you've got a letter from Ed Davey on the record saying, "not my problem, mate" and that's hard to explain away.
You know it's touched a nerve from the strops one or two of our Lib Dem regulars have thrown on here, going so far as to flag posts that point it out.
They need to have a better answer than that.
Its made me laugh, but I'm not sure its touched a nerve. Davey receives a letter sent on his first day as responsible minister, asks the civil servants what the crack is, and sends a letter with their response 11 days into his role.
I know the Tories are desperate to do something, anything, to turn things around. But if thats all there is then the nerve thats been touched is theirs. Pants being shat at the coming loss of public money they can stuff into their pockets.
If you are explaining you are losing
I’m not saying it’s fair or right.
"If you are explaining you are losing".
Well, if that's true, on the basis of this morning's interview, Sunak is going to lead the Conservatives to the biggest defeat since the Emperor Valens at Adrianople (apologies for the modern reference, @TSE)
I didn’t see the interview but my guess is the range of outcomes is bad <> very bad
But my point was simply
- “Davey did bad stuff” - “But it was his first day!” - “So you admit he did bad stuff”? - “So did the Toooories!”
All most people will hear is “Post Office Scandal / Lib Dem leader”
As for Sunak, whoever is briefing him needs sacking.
Sunak talks like the intern who's wandered into the office, just managed to work out where the canteen & loos are & has only the vaguest idea what's going on & what he's meant to be doing.
It's beyond pathetic.
He was quite comprehensively lying this morning. This thread from a BMA negotiator explains how:
Why does he make such obviously wrong statements? Doesn't he know or doesn't he care?
You are just regurgitating crap from the BMA negotiating committee
- “resolution” is overstating it, but it was good enough that the BMA put the offer to their members. Not sure if they are recommending or not - the “pay settlement” that Sunak is referring to is the offer. NOT how junior doctors have done since 2008 - which is the ridiculous basis for their original claim
I know you have a dog in the hunt here, but to claim that someone is “lying” requires more than “I disagree with him”
It's a lie to say it has been settled for Consultants (who have just repeated that strike ballot), and there hasn't been an offer to the SAS grades.
Sunak lied about the impact of strikes on waiting lists too if you look further down that twitter thread.
He is way out of his depth and every interview makes it more obvious. His campaign is going to be one car crash interview after another.
Yet his very clever and playful General Election announcement took Starmer down at the knees.
Sunak seems to have decided to be economical with the actualitaire, but it doesn't seem to be doing him any harm.
Evan Davis, Iain Dale, Fraser Nelson and Andrew Neil have been impressed with Sunak's campaign start.
Andrew Neil makes a good point here - rsther than trying to smear other politicians, the Tories could earn a lot of brownie points with voters by paying out the sub masters in full immediately.
When you think of all the money wasted on PPE & furlough, it would not be that costly and could be the Black Swan they are looking for
Too much “business-as-usual” in Rishi Sunak’s remarks about the sub-postmasters this morning. He doesn’t get the scale of the national outrage. He should have announced Alan Johnson as head of new compensation agency, with all claims generously settled this year and bill sent to Post Office. Plus instructed government lawyers to resolve all miscarriages of justice this year too, with additional compensation. And encouraged NCA to pursue criminal charges against Post Office executives.
As for Sunak, whoever is briefing him needs sacking.
Sunak talks like the intern who's wandered into the office, just managed to work out where the canteen & loos are & has only the vaguest idea what's going on & what he's meant to be doing.
It's beyond pathetic.
He was quite comprehensively lying this morning. This thread from a BMA negotiator explains how:
Why does he make such obviously wrong statements? Doesn't he know or doesn't he care?
You are just regurgitating crap from the BMA negotiating committee
- “resolution” is overstating it, but it was good enough that the BMA put the offer to their members. Not sure if they are recommending or not - the “pay settlement” that Sunak is referring to is the offer. NOT how junior doctors have done since 2008 - which is the ridiculous basis for their original claim
I know you have a dog in the hunt here, but to claim that someone is “lying” requires more than “I disagree with him”
It's a lie to say it has been settled for Consultants (who have just repeated that strike ballot), and there hasn't been an offer to the SAS grades.
Sunak lied about the impact of strikes on waiting lists too if you look further down that twitter thread.
He is way out of his depth and every interview makes it more obvious. His campaign is going to be one car crash interview after another.
Lied or badly briefed?
Tbh I have sympathy for the junior doctors, but only up to a point. I wish they would stop using misleading FY1 hourly pay rates to imply that’s the pay for junior doctors. It clearly isn’t, and even for the poor FY1’s the extras add up to quite a lot.
Andrew Neil makes a good point here - rsther than trying to smear other politicians, the Tories could earn a lot of brownie points with voters by paying out the sub masters in full immediately.
When you think of all the money wasted on PPE & furlough, it would not be that costly and could be the Black Swan they are looking for
Too much “business-as-usual” in Rishi Sunak’s remarks about the sub-postmasters this morning. He doesn’t get the scale of the national outrage. He should have announced Alan Johnson as head of new compensation agency, with all claims generously settled this year and bill sent to Post Office. Plus instructed government lawyers to resolve all miscarriages of justice this year too, with additional compensation. And encouraged NCA to pursue criminal charges against Post Office executives.
May I have your attention please? May I have your attention please? Will the real Ed Davey please stand up? I repeat, will the real Ed Davey please stand up? We're gonna have a problem here
On topic, I think this is a problem for the Liberal Democrats as part of their leitmotif is that they're unlike the big two and stand up for the little guy. Unfortunately, you've got a letter from Ed Davey on the record saying, "not my problem, mate" and that's hard to explain away.
You know it's touched a nerve from the strops one or two of our Lib Dem regulars have thrown on here, going so far as to flag posts that point it out.
They need to have a better answer than that.
Its made me laugh, but I'm not sure its touched a nerve. Davey receives a letter sent on his first day as responsible minister, asks the civil servants what the crack is, and sends a letter with their response 11 days into his role.
I know the Tories are desperate to do something, anything, to turn things around. But if thats all there is then the nerve thats been touched is theirs. Pants being shat at the coming loss of public money they can stuff into their pockets.
If you are explaining you are losing
I’m not saying it’s fair or right.
Not when its explaining *to Tories*. Then its like Father Ted "explaining" the difference between small and far away...
It would be ironic if Davey resigns over his (seemingly very minor) role in the Post Office Scandal.
He is the only party leader that every one of the 80+ PB competition entries predicted would remain in place until the GE.
That would be hilarious
It would get our collective prediction experiment off to a rocky start.
I actually think it would do the LDs some good though if he did resign.
Davey resigning this week, then a concerted campaign to argue he was a scapegoat, the Tories get away with it yet again, “at least Davey had the decency…” etc could probably be a good political move. But highly unlikely to happen.
On topic, I think this is a problem for the Liberal Democrats as part of their leitmotif is that they're unlike the big two and stand up for the little guy. Unfortunately, you've got a letter from Ed Davey on the record saying, "not my problem, mate" and that's hard to explain away.
You know it's touched a nerve from the strops one or two of our Lib Dem regulars have thrown on here, going so far as to flag posts that point it out.
They need to have a better answer than that.
Its made me laugh, but I'm not sure its touched a nerve. Davey receives a letter sent on his first day as responsible minister, asks the civil servants what the crack is, and sends a letter with their response 11 days into his role.
I know the Tories are desperate to do something, anything, to turn things around. But if thats all there is then the nerve thats been touched is theirs. Pants being shat at the coming loss of public money they can stuff into their pockets.
If you are explaining you are losing
I’m not saying it’s fair or right.
"If you are explaining you are losing".
Well, if that's true, on the basis of this morning's interview, Sunak is going to lead the Conservatives to the biggest defeat since the Emperor Valens at Adrianople (apologies for the modern reference, @TSE)
I didn’t see the interview but my guess is the range of outcomes is bad <> very bad
But my point was simply
- “Davey did bad stuff” - “But it was his first day!” - “So you admit he did bad stuff”? - “So did the Toooories!”
All most people will hear is “Post Office Scandal / Lib Dem leader”
It’s just unlucky for him really, even if he wasn’t that compromised, to be the only current leader that was involved at all.
Just finished the whole thing. Exceptionally good TV in terms of what it aimed to do: explain a horrible injustice, make you feel angry, tell the nation what happened
I reckon Davey is terminally damaged. Will struggle on but this now hangs around him. All the post office bigwigs are in danger of going to jail
On the upside this shows that - slowly, belatedly - British democracy and justice still kinda works. The 4th estate did its job. Journalists listened to a story and wrote it. Then tv came alone and shamed the powers that be (via a brilliant scriptwriter)
That’s something to cheer amidst what is still a pretty bleak tale. I apologise to all subpostmasters on PB for yawningly belittling this story
You owe me a drink or two when we meet.
You still have that visit to West Cumbria to do and the picnic on the beach I promised you.
I recently visited your beach. Some funny rules in the Gents...
And you didn't say hello?! How naughty of you.
I wouldn't know about the Gents, what with me being a woman and all. I'd have thought the urinals might be quite a convenient place to wash boots, what with them being nearer to the ground. Depends what is on the boots, I suppose.
Further up the coast there was a sign at a petrol state politely asking people not to turn up in their dressing gowns. When I asked the lady behind the counter, whether this was for real she said:
"Oh yes. We get men in their dressing gowns. We've seen it all."
"I do hope not!" I replied.
She laughed.
We have to make our own entertainment here, you know.
Here is the sign:
As fellow Cumbrians, Mrs Gadfly and I are all too familiar with making our own entertainment. She is a fellow PB lurker and we were guessing as to the whereabouts of Cyclefree towers when out looking for a grandchild friendly beach that day.
Way Off Topic - Yours truly is current enjoying a volume that contains documentary evidence from the first US federal elections in 1788-89 following adoption of US Constitution. Specifically, official records and newspaper reports from 11 states then in the Union (North Carolina & Rhode Island not having yet ratified USC) of electoral process and results for Presidential/VP electors, for US Senators and for US Representatives.
Check out this chronology for above in the State of Delaware:
1788 13 September = Outgoing Confederation Congress adopts Election Ordinance for first federal elections 20 October > Delaware General Assembly convenes in Dover 23 October > President of Delaware presents federal Election Ordinance to General Assembly 24 October > House committee suggests method of electing US Senators, submits an election bill to full House 25 October > Joint session of General Assembly elects two US Senators 27 October > House approves election bill, sends it to Legislative Council (the upper chamber) for concurrence 28 October > Legislative Council amends election bill, House concurs with amendments, bill enacted, General Assembly adjourns
1789 6 January > qualified voters (male White property owners) elect 3 POTUS electors, and 1 member of US House of Reps 24 January > Delaware Privy Council certifies election of presidential electors and US Representative 4 February > State's electors meet at Dover, cast 3 votes for George Washington and 3 votes for John Jay 4 March > first US Congress convenes in New York
First thing that strikes me, is the swiftness and dispatch in conduct of this very important business; especially important for Delaware which was looking forward to new federal government protecting their very-small state interests, for example lessening their commercial dominance by Philadelphia just up the Delaware River.
I mean, the legislature convenes on a cold (I'm guessing) October Monday in Dover, elects two US Senators next Saturday, adopts federal election law following Monday then adjourns, mission accomplished!
Would also note that IF every state had followed Delaware's lead, the 1st US presidential election would have ended up in a tie, as did happen in 1800 with Thomas Jefferson & Aaron Burr.
However, most electors in other states did NOT vote for John Jay, instead it was John Adams who came in 2nd to George Washington and was thus elected first VP.
BTW (& FYI) the official title of Delaware's chief executive officer way back then, was: His Excellency Thomas Collins, Esq. president, captain-general and commander in chief of the Delaware state
Andrew Neil makes a good point here - rsther than trying to smear other politicians, the Tories could earn a lot of brownie points with voters by paying out the sub masters in full immediately.
When you think of all the money wasted on PPE & furlough, it would not be that costly and could be the Black Swan they are looking for
Too much “business-as-usual” in Rishi Sunak’s remarks about the sub-postmasters this morning. He doesn’t get the scale of the national outrage. He should have announced Alan Johnson as head of new compensation agency, with all claims generously settled this year and bill sent to Post Office. Plus instructed government lawyers to resolve all miscarriages of justice this year too, with additional compensation. And encouraged NCA to pursue criminal charges against Post Office executives.
Andrew Neil makes a good point here - rsther than trying to smear other politicians, the Tories could earn a lot of brownie points with voters by paying out the sub masters in full immediately.
When you think of all the money wasted on PPE & furlough, it would not be that costly and could be the Black Swan they are looking for
Too much “business-as-usual” in Rishi Sunak’s remarks about the sub-postmasters this morning. He doesn’t get the scale of the national outrage. He should have announced Alan Johnson as head of new compensation agency, with all claims generously settled this year and bill sent to Post Office. Plus instructed government lawyers to resolve all miscarriages of justice this year too, with additional compensation. And encouraged NCA to pursue criminal charges against Post Office executives.
Sending the bill to the Post Office? It'd get lost in transit.
The bill should go to Fujitsu. Don't like it and we will start investigating your other contracts in more detail..
Why?
Yes their software was a failure and they should compensate their customer (the PO) for that.
But it wasn’t Fujitsu who prosecuted the SPMs and ruined lives
It was Fujitsu UK that lied about the infallibility Horizon, including about remote access. Without that the prosecutions couldn't have happened.
They are firmly in the frame. The problem is that the others believed them.
I’m not saying they are blameless. They are not.
But did they commit perjury? Or did they exaggerate to a customer?
The former should have criminal penalties. The latter commercial consequences.
AIUI they provided "experts" who confirmed in the court on oath in various prosecutions and civil claims that their system had been correct and was not the source of the shortfall errors. Given what we now know about their internal concerns about the patching that had been done the basis of that evidence demands an explanation.
I agree with @Casino_Royale and @StillWaters that, whatever the rights or wrongs, Ed Davey and the Lib Dems are suddenly looking toasty.
What is perhaps most inexcusable is the pathetic management of the story so far. Michael Crick fired the starting pistol on Ed Davey open season last week, this isn’t just a Tory pile-on. But the Lib Dem counter-narrative barely exists.
I agree with @Casino_Royale and @StillWaters that, whatever the rights or wrongs, Ed Davey and the Lib Dems are suddenly looking toasty.
What is perhaps most inexcusable is the pathetic management of the story so far. Michael Crick signalled fired the starting pistol on Ed Davey open season last week, this isn’t just a Tory pile-on. But the Lib Dem counter-narrative barely exists.
Davey either needs to call it a day as leader, or to do a long form interview to explain his position and put up an active defence.
Andrew Neil makes a good point here - rsther than trying to smear other politicians, the Tories could earn a lot of brownie points with voters by paying out the sub masters in full immediately.
When you think of all the money wasted on PPE & furlough, it would not be that costly and could be the Black Swan they are looking for
Too much “business-as-usual” in Rishi Sunak’s remarks about the sub-postmasters this morning. He doesn’t get the scale of the national outrage. He should have announced Alan Johnson as head of new compensation agency, with all claims generously settled this year and bill sent to Post Office. Plus instructed government lawyers to resolve all miscarriages of justice this year too, with additional compensation. And encouraged NCA to pursue criminal charges against Post Office executives.
Sending the bill to the Post Office? It'd get lost in transit.
The bill should go to Fujitsu. Don't like it and we will start investigating your other contracts in more detail..
Why?
Yes their software was a failure and they should compensate their customer (the PO) for that.
But it wasn’t Fujitsu who prosecuted the SPMs and ruined lives
It was Fujitsu UK that lied about the infallibility Horizon, including about remote access. Without that the prosecutions couldn't have happened.
They are firmly in the frame. The problem is that the others believed them.
I’m not saying they are blameless. They are not.
But did they commit perjury? Or did they exaggerate to a customer?
The former should have criminal penalties. The latter commercial consequences.
They delivered software that couldn't do transactionality. For financial transactions.
If someone delivered cars that had a design of differential that meant they couldn't go round corners and people died, the manufacturer would get it in the neck.
But it is not just Sir Ed Davey. It is the political equivalent to Murder on the Orient Express. All the three main political parties did it. They are all guilty.
From the Blair administration which brought in Horizon and overrode concerns about Fujitsu. Then there was Jack Straw's wife, Alice Perkins, who was Chairman of the Post Office when this matter started to come to light. After Ed Davey, there was Jo Swinson, who was useless (No surprise.) Then the Conservatives, who awarded Paula Vennells her CBE. Not to mention Education Secretary Gillian Keegan's husband with his Post Office IT background and then head of Fujitsu in the UK. Now Rishi Sunaks' in-laws'company, it is alleged, have business dealings with Fujitsu.
Indeed. And notice the classic NU10K silence about it - it could mean a swathe of Proper People catching it in the neck.
The guilt parties here are -
1) All the ministers responsible for the Post Office through the period in question (All three main parties). 2) The senior civil servants who went along with the bullshit. 3) The management at the Post Office 4) The legal unit at the Post Office 5) Fujitsu - from the developers who coded shit, to the managers who sold shit.
That list is Too Big To Fail.
Bit like the vast list of prosecutions & firings over Rotherham.
Yes, it's a systemic failure. The best thing is to help the victims and ensure this kind of thing can never happen again.
The politically-motivated witch-hunt achieves nothing and does nothing for the victims.
It depends what sort of failure. Being generally useless is not mostly a crime though it is quite common. What ordinary folks like us are finding hard to credit is different.
Is it really true that the PO went through all these hundreds of cases with all relevant parties in every case genuinely believing that the appearance of the evidence actually matched the reality claimed of criminal conduct? Did no-one even wonder, smell a rat, ask why hundreds of exemplary people were stealing thousands and all these cases were suddenly emerging.
Did no auditor ever spot that non-existent cash was being generated by a system which they couldn't locate in the actual world.
The point was they became aware. And became ever more desperate in converting it up. And carrying on the prosecutions.
If it was just a simple - "The software is shit. Right, stop prosecutions." - then the PO would be (mostly) in the clear. But they lied and lied and lied. Then lied some more.
If Sunak and Lord Cameron want to redefine their legacy, what they do next on Ukraine will determine it. As things stand, they will be the guy that just got beat in his first election and the guy that lost Brexit.
But the Ukrainian war is at its 1940 moment. The USA is playing the role of France, cowardly losing its nerve and playing into the hands of the expansionist dictatorship, in the name of narrowly defined cost-benefit analysis.
But Ukraine is desperation for funding and ammunition. Will Britain and Europe step up to take the USA's place, as Britain did in 1940? Or will they collectively duck down and let the chips fall where they may? Sunak and Cameron will be two of the most critical players.
I agree with @Casino_Royale and @StillWaters that, whatever the rights or wrongs, Ed Davey and the Lib Dems are suddenly looking toasty.
What is perhaps most inexcusable is the pathetic management of the story so far. Michael Crick signalled fired the starting pistol on Ed Davey open season last week, this isn’t just a Tory pile-on. But the Lib Dem counter-narrative barely exists.
Davey either needs to call it a day as leader, or to do a long form interview to explain his position and put up an active defence.
His problem is surely not what he did at the time but whether he has had anything to say about this over the last 14 years when it surely became clearer and clearer that he had been lied to. Why was he not ringing alarm bells a decade ago?
Andrew Neil makes a good point here - rsther than trying to smear other politicians, the Tories could earn a lot of brownie points with voters by paying out the sub masters in full immediately.
When you think of all the money wasted on PPE & furlough, it would not be that costly and could be the Black Swan they are looking for
Too much “business-as-usual” in Rishi Sunak’s remarks about the sub-postmasters this morning. He doesn’t get the scale of the national outrage. He should have announced Alan Johnson as head of new compensation agency, with all claims generously settled this year and bill sent to Post Office. Plus instructed government lawyers to resolve all miscarriages of justice this year too, with additional compensation. And encouraged NCA to pursue criminal charges against Post Office executives.
Sending the bill to the Post Office? It'd get lost in transit.
The bill should go to Fujitsu. Don't like it and we will start investigating your other contracts in more detail..
Why?
Yes their software was a failure and they should compensate their customer (the PO) for that.
But it wasn’t Fujitsu who prosecuted the SPMs and ruined lives
It was Fujitsu UK that lied about the infallibility Horizon, including about remote access. Without that the prosecutions couldn't have happened.
They are firmly in the frame. The problem is that the others believed them.
I’m not saying they are blameless. They are not.
But did they commit perjury? Or did they exaggerate to a customer?
The former should have criminal penalties. The latter commercial consequences.
They delivered software that couldn't do transactionality. For financial transactions.
If someone delivered cars that had a design of differential that meant they couldn't go round corners and people died, the manufacturer would get it in the neck.
I’m not an IT person like I think you are.
But that failing sounds pretty fundamental
So the PO should go after them for commercial failure
(In your analogy the PO is the car manufacturer and the SPM the dealers. Fujitsu is a parts manufacturer . It’s Ford that gets blamed not Vistion (?)
I agree with @Casino_Royale and @StillWaters that, whatever the rights or wrongs, Ed Davey and the Lib Dems are suddenly looking toasty.
What is perhaps most inexcusable is the pathetic management of the story so far. Michael Crick signalled fired the starting pistol on Ed Davey open season last week, this isn’t just a Tory pile-on. But the Lib Dem counter-narrative barely exists.
Davey either needs to call it a day as leader, or to do a long form interview to explain his position and put up an active defence.
The political difficulty as always is in working out whether this is a Westminster village story or cutting through. I think it’s, just, cutting through. Not like partygate or the expenses scandal, but enough.
The Lib Dems have pros and cons as targets for ire. They are quiet and polite types, easily bullied. So an easy target when looking for scapegoats. But not the actual current government, so nowhere near as explosive as something involving them.
I agree with @Casino_Royale and @StillWaters that, whatever the rights or wrongs, Ed Davey and the Lib Dems are suddenly looking toasty.
What is perhaps most inexcusable is the pathetic management of the story so far. Michael Crick signalled fired the starting pistol on Ed Davey open season last week, this isn’t just a Tory pile-on. But the Lib Dem counter-narrative barely exists.
Davey either needs to call it a day as leader, or to do a long form interview to explain his position and put up an active defence.
His problem is surely not what he did at the time but whether he has had anything to say about this over the last 14 years when it surely became clearer and clearer that he had been lied to. Why was he not ringing alarm bells a decade ago?
Didn’t he go and work for the company that were fighting the post masters?
Andrew Neil makes a good point here - rsther than trying to smear other politicians, the Tories could earn a lot of brownie points with voters by paying out the sub masters in full immediately.
When you think of all the money wasted on PPE & furlough, it would not be that costly and could be the Black Swan they are looking for
Too much “business-as-usual” in Rishi Sunak’s remarks about the sub-postmasters this morning. He doesn’t get the scale of the national outrage. He should have announced Alan Johnson as head of new compensation agency, with all claims generously settled this year and bill sent to Post Office. Plus instructed government lawyers to resolve all miscarriages of justice this year too, with additional compensation. And encouraged NCA to pursue criminal charges against Post Office executives.
Sending the bill to the Post Office? It'd get lost in transit.
The bill should go to Fujitsu. Don't like it and we will start investigating your other contracts in more detail..
Why?
Yes their software was a failure and they should compensate their customer (the PO) for that.
But it wasn’t Fujitsu who prosecuted the SPMs and ruined lives
It was Fujitsu UK that lied about the infallibility Horizon, including about remote access. Without that the prosecutions couldn't have happened.
They are firmly in the frame. The problem is that the others believed them.
I’m not saying they are blameless. They are not.
But did they commit perjury? Or did they exaggerate to a customer?
The former should have criminal penalties. The latter commercial consequences.
They delivered software that couldn't do transactionality. For financial transactions.
If someone delivered cars that had a design of differential that meant they couldn't go round corners and people died, the manufacturer would get it in the neck.
I’m not an IT person like I think you are.
But that failing sounds pretty fundamental
So the PO should go after them for commercial failure
(In your analogy the PO is the car manufacturer and the SPM the dealers. Fujitsu is a parts manufacturer . It’s Ford that gets blamed not Vistion (?)
Yes it is a fundamental failure.
The horrible phrase "Not fit for purpose" is right here.
They sold faulty goods.
The dealers (PO) carried on selling the faulty cars, prosecuting people for the inability to drive round corners etc, after *they knew* the cars were faulty.
The manufacturer is liable *and* the PO is liable.
The LDs would probably do better at an election with Daisy Cooper as leader.
I doubt it would make much difference, there isn't a great deal in this PO story other than Davey was a bit slow off the mark in noticing the Horizon problems alongside everybody else in government and the PO and lawyers at the time.
The Mail on Sunday are beginning to notice Sir Keir’s Achilles heel.
“Starmer won the Labour leadership early in 2020 on an undiluted Corbynista platform which included all the major policies of Jeremy Corbyn's 2019 election manifesto (such as widespread nationalisation and abolition of university tuition fees), encapsulated in a ten-point plan.
In a BBC TV interview he assured me these weren't just promises, they were 'pledges' he was making to Labour members and the British people.
Every one, of course, has since been junked, most of them not long after he was elected leader.
For him now to rail against broken Tory promises and the 'political cynicism' that has engendered is rather like Satan setting his face against sin. It is simply not credible. If Starmer is our next prime minister — and I still regard that as the odds-on result come the election — then he will take power with the unique distinction of an opposition leader who has broken more promises and executed more U-turns out of power than most governments manage in office.”
Whoever is involved there are always two views about this fairly universal phenomenon, which in the case of Starmer was written up in detail and admiringly by the Economist a few months ago.
Those who support where he currently is will draw no attention to it and ascribe it to political reality. Those who don't (the DM etc) will draw attention to the fact that successful politicians appear sincere but are in fact in perpetual zigzag.
Starmer: totally compromised but going to be (OK) PM; Rory: principled but totally outside the corridors of power.
Politics is a dirty game.
Rebecca Long-Bailey was the Corbyn continuity candidate. Starmer was the 'change to win' choice.
I agree with @Casino_Royale and @StillWaters that, whatever the rights or wrongs, Ed Davey and the Lib Dems are suddenly looking toasty
...letting the Tories focus on the (ex-)red wall (Rwanda and ECHR), with only a little expenditure required in the blue wall saying don't forget what the lying LibDems did to our poor subpostmasters and subpostmistresses.
The LDs would probably do better at an election with Daisy Cooper as leader.
Yes they would. Daisy is the obvious successor and comes over as more assertive more 'in your face'.
Layla's time is gone and there are no obvious others.
As it stands despite all the apparent unhappiness among the right wing voters in the 'Blue Wall' LD are heading for 20 seats.
On the current swing in most polls the Tories are down about 15% on 2019, if in Blue Wall LD V Tory marginals tactical voting by Labour voters ensured the swing from the Tories all went to the LDs, they could pick up about 50 seats and be back to 1997-2015 levels
In reality the chief culpability lies with Fujitsu for delivering faulty software, and Post Office management for pressing on with wilful persecution of subpostmasters.
I can’t really blame any politicians, save for those who failed to give a shit once the full scandal unravelled. Chief culprit there seems to be Kemi Badenoch.
But agree with Foxy above, that Davey owes a long-form explanation. He may already be too late.
I've signed it but it frankly misses the point. She should be facing serious charges in the courts, such as perverting the course of justice and quite possibly perjury if she gave evidence to the Parliamentary Inquiries under oath, not worrying about her ill deserved gong.
The LDs would probably do better at an election with Daisy Cooper as leader.
I doubt it would make much difference, there isn't a great deal in this PO story other than Davey was a bit slow off the mark in noticing the Horizon problems alongside everybody else in government and the PO and lawyers at the time.
Davey is also more heavyweight than Cooper
The other thing is... how much of a national campaign are the Lib Dems doing?
If they have any sense (and I think the current management do), they're doing ca. 40 very local campaigns of the "Yourtown's Voice At Westminster" sort. All-in in those constituencies (to the extent that you can probably identify them from the uptick in paper being recycled, thanks to all those Focus leaflets), but minimal elsewhere.
The LDs would probably do better at an election with Daisy Cooper as leader.
I doubt it would make much difference, there isn't a great deal in this PO story other than Davey was a bit slow off the mark in noticing the Horizon problems alongside everybody else in government and the PO and lawyers at the time.
Davey is also more heavyweight than Cooper
I think you underestimate this story. It has run and run for years, and has a lot left to run. The enquiry will be continuing all year, and now with increased salience and public attention.
If Sunak and Badenoch don't handle it very adroitly there will be a lot more political casualties.
Comments
From the Blair administration which brought in Horizon and overrode concerns about Fujitsu. Then there was Jack Straw's wife, Alice Perkins, who was Chairman of the Post Office when this matter started to come to light. After Ed Davey, there was Jo Swinson, who was useless (No surprise.) Then the Conservatives, who awarded Paula Vennells her CBE. Not to mention Education Secretary Gillian Keegan's husband with his Post Office IT background and then head of Fujitsu in the UK. Now Rishi Sunaks' in-laws'company, it is alleged, have business dealings with Fujitsu.
It'd get lost in transit.
The guilt parties here are -
1) All the ministers responsible for the Post Office through the period in question (All three main parties).
2) The senior civil servants who went along with the bullshit.
3) The management at the Post Office
4) The legal unit at the Post Office
5) Fujitsu - from the developers who coded shit, to the managers who sold shit.
That list is Too Big To Fail.
Bit like the vast list of prosecutions & firings over Rotherham.
Feeding this story to the Sunday Times, might have been the team around Sunak lurching into self defence, distraction, chaff mode. Only to buy them some time though.
As soon as I saw the Sunday Times front page I posted to PB “why are they only showing Lib Dem’s?” It was peculiar spin on it, it just made no sense at all, Straight away I thought, how long is this bizarre line of spin going to hold for? the Tory’s have controlled every government since 2010, if its fault of libdems in Cameron’s government 14 years ago, how can Tories not share that? Since over years evidence has mounted up, Tories have been in government alone for the last 9 years.
The anger of the people is going to be very real over the coming weeks, and exactly what Rishi Sunak does about it and action he announces is going to be very interesting. Election betting wise This could knock pre election swingback to government right on the head. 😟
https://twitter.com/goldstone_tony/status/1743936272920436749?t=nhZdClmw1QPqToibjR8kNg&s=19
Why does he make such obviously wrong statements? Doesn't he know or doesn't he care?
My friend (it was the 1970s) was barefoot ...
I wouldn't know about the Gents, what with me being a woman and all. I'd have thought the urinals might be quite a convenient place to wash boots, what with them being nearer to the ground. Depends what is on the boots, I suppose.
Further up the coast there was a sign at a petrol state politely asking people not to turn up in their dressing gowns. When I asked the lady behind the counter, whether this was for real she said:
"Oh yes. We get men in their dressing gowns. We've seen it all."
"I do hope not!" I replied.
She laughed.
We have to make our own entertainment here, you know.
Here is the sign:
So they key question is whether they believe the politician is on their side, and shafting all the right other people.
Where it could be dangerous for SKS is if his pledges to the electorate have the air of being drafted by a clumsy lawyer, with the get-out clauses for failing them plain for all to see.
On topic, I think this is a problem for the Liberal Democrats .. etc.
I've already said I think Davey should consider resigning. The obvious glee of our resident Tories is just a little distasteful.
And it will probably end there.
I just think it's a problem for him and the Liberal Democrats.
There's no glee from me. This is nothing to be gleeful about.
All the LDs (and Labour) need to stand on is the record of Conservative-led Government since 2010 (and especially since 2019).
Socialism in action. Perpetual opposition.
Presumably because of problems from people actually doing it!
The politically-motivated witch-hunt achieves nothing and does nothing for the victims.
Yes I agree with your post - the limitations of Arteta are being found out. 1) no rotation for freshness means fielding tired, jaded players not 100% fit. 2) no trust in youth. 3) trying to get by without a proper number 9. 4). Faith in Havertz who has been a disaster, colossal waste of money, could have got Vlahovic for that price, Havertz was a complete clown on pitch today. 5) plan A was Martinelli and Saka one on ones, worked last year but it’s been sussed neither have been up against just one defender since the last home CL game. So, what’s plan B Arteta?
Klopp has complete rebuilt Liverpool into a strong side. Though Liverpool were second best today, the teams spirit is their strength, and that, and this result, is owned by Klopp. But they have to return Emirates in a couple of weeks for an even more important match than this one. And the rest of this season can still go pear shaped for Liverpool despite Klopp, they might not yet secure 2nd to Man City, or even top 4, as many new players havn’t settled and gelled yet.
Man City have the title sown up because of one word. Rodri.
Though Davey standing down isn't the end of the world. Daisy is a good performer and it would put pressure on all the Tories who have done sweet FA about the PO Scandal since the successful appeals in 2018.
I’m not saying it’s fair or right.
They only clag up because of those pathetic snowflake urine interferometer things - P-waves. What was wrong, I ask you, with a good drizzle of bounce back wee on your pants from a hearty urine stream?
Damn things didn't clag up before you had that floppy plastic brush nonsense.
He is the only party leader that every one of the 80+ PB competition entries predicted would remain in place until the GE.
Well, if that's true, on the basis of this morning's interview, Sunak is going to lead the Conservatives to the biggest defeat since the Emperor Valens at Adrianople (apologies for the modern reference, @TSE)
Yes their software was a failure and they should compensate their customer (the PO) for that.
But it wasn’t Fujitsu who prosecuted the SPMs and ruined lives
But no-one actually responsible will pay an actual penalty. A few politicians might be made to resign - except they nearly are all in other jobs now. Holding permanent officials above a certain grade responsible for their actions would be a violation of the Rules Of NU10K - unless it is in that move-to-a-better-job-with-more-money style of punishment.
The police will report in a year or 2 that prosecutions are not possible due to passage of time and are not in the public interest.
Those who support where he currently is will draw no attention to it and ascribe it to political reality. Those who don't (the DM etc) will draw attention to the fact that successful politicians appear sincere but are in fact in perpetual zigzag.
Starmer: totally compromised but going to be (OK) PM; Rory: principled but totally outside the corridors of power.
Politics is a dirty game.
I want a witch hunt. I want hundreds of prosecutions. I want to see politicians and "public servants" having their lives ruined and sent to prison.
Just as I wanted, over Rotherham, hundreds of people put on the various offender registers - they enable & protected abuse, so they are guilty of abuse.
Burn it all.
- “resolution” is overstating it, but it was good enough that the BMA put the offer to their members. Not sure if they are recommending or not
- the “pay settlement” that Sunak is referring to is the offer. NOT how junior doctors have done since 2008 - which is the ridiculous basis for their original claim
I know you have a dog in the hunt here, but to claim that someone is “lying” requires more than “I disagree with him”
Now Starmer falling on his sword for his role in the Post Office scandal, now that would be joyous. It couldn't happen to a more venal and disgusting individual, except for perhaps Boris Johnson.
I actually think it would do the LDs some good though if he did resign.
They are firmly in the frame. The problem is that the others believed them.
It won't happen because those with any sense know it would fail, his vanity means he'd rather stay the eternal martyr, and if Palestine were its focus (as inevitably it would be) it would pose a whole new round of difficult questions on why he's had supportive things to say about a host of murderous antisemites.
Oh and his remaining friends in Labour will make it clear that if they're forced to choose between him and their party, there's only one winner - and it ain't a bearded marrow botherer and his far left groupuscule.
He'll stand as an Indy in Islington North, hope for a valedictory win that will act as a swansong and give him a platform to needle Starmer, or take a loss that can be explained as the brave last stand.
Sunak lied about the impact of strikes on waiting lists too if you look further down that twitter thread.
He is way out of his depth and every interview makes it more obvious. His campaign is going to be one car crash interview after another.
Is it really true that the PO went through all these hundreds of cases with all relevant parties in every case genuinely believing that the appearance of the evidence actually matched the reality claimed of criminal conduct? Did no-one even wonder, smell a rat, ask why hundreds of exemplary people were stealing thousands and all these cases were suddenly emerging.
Did no auditor ever spot that non-existent cash was being generated by a system which they couldn't locate in the actual world.
But my point was simply
- “Davey did bad stuff”
- “But it was his first day!”
- “So you admit he did bad stuff”?
- “So did the Toooories!”
All most people will hear is “Post Office Scandal / Lib Dem leader”
Sunak seems to have decided to be economical with the actualitaire, but it doesn't seem to be doing him any harm.
Evan Davis, Iain Dale, Fraser Nelson and Andrew Neil have been impressed with Sunak's campaign start.
But did they commit perjury? Or did they exaggerate to a customer?
The former should have criminal penalties. The latter commercial consequences.
Tbh I have sympathy for the junior doctors, but only up to a point. I wish they would stop using misleading FY1 hourly pay rates to imply that’s the pay for junior doctors. It clearly isn’t, and even for the poor FY1’s the extras add up to quite a lot.
May I have your attention please?
Will the real Ed Davey please stand up?
I repeat, will the real Ed Davey please stand up?
We're gonna have a problem here
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/strip-paula-vennells-of-her-cbe
Check out this chronology for above in the State of Delaware:
1788
13 September = Outgoing Confederation Congress adopts Election Ordinance for first federal elections
20 October > Delaware General Assembly convenes in Dover
23 October > President of Delaware presents federal Election Ordinance to General Assembly
24 October > House committee suggests method of electing US Senators, submits an election bill to full House
25 October > Joint session of General Assembly elects two US Senators
27 October > House approves election bill, sends it to Legislative Council (the upper chamber) for concurrence
28 October > Legislative Council amends election bill, House concurs with amendments, bill enacted, General Assembly adjourns
1789
6 January > qualified voters (male White property owners) elect 3 POTUS electors, and 1 member of US House of Reps
24 January > Delaware Privy Council certifies election of presidential electors and US Representative
4 February > State's electors meet at Dover, cast 3 votes for George Washington and 3 votes for John Jay
4 March > first US Congress convenes in New York
First thing that strikes me, is the swiftness and dispatch in conduct of this very important business; especially important for Delaware which was looking forward to new federal government protecting their very-small state interests, for example lessening their commercial dominance by Philadelphia just up the Delaware River.
I mean, the legislature convenes on a cold (I'm guessing) October Monday in Dover, elects two US Senators next Saturday, adopts federal election law following Monday then adjourns, mission accomplished!
Would also note that IF every state had followed Delaware's lead, the 1st US presidential election would have ended up in a tie, as did happen in 1800 with Thomas Jefferson & Aaron Burr.
However, most electors in other states did NOT vote for John Jay, instead it was John Adams who came in 2nd to George Washington and was thus elected first VP.
BTW (& FYI) the official title of Delaware's chief executive officer way back then, was:
His Excellency Thomas Collins, Esq. president, captain-general and commander in chief of the Delaware state
Hang them both.
If she became acting leader it wouldn't be a problem, and I think she would be unopposed.
What is perhaps most inexcusable is the pathetic management of the story so far. Michael Crick fired the starting pistol on Ed Davey open season last week, this isn’t just a Tory pile-on. But the Lib Dem counter-narrative barely exists.
If someone delivered cars that had a design of differential that meant they couldn't go round corners and people died, the manufacturer would get it in the neck.
If it was just a simple - "The software is shit. Right, stop prosecutions." - then the PO would be (mostly) in the clear. But they lied and lied and lied. Then lied some more.
But the Ukrainian war is at its 1940 moment. The USA is playing the role of France, cowardly losing its nerve and playing into the hands of the expansionist dictatorship, in the name of narrowly defined cost-benefit analysis.
But Ukraine is desperation for funding and ammunition. Will Britain and Europe step up to take the USA's place, as Britain did in 1940? Or will they collectively duck down and let the chips fall where they may? Sunak and Cameron will be two of the most critical players.
But that failing sounds pretty fundamental
So the PO should go after them for commercial failure
(In your analogy the PO is the car manufacturer and the SPM the dealers. Fujitsu is a parts manufacturer . It’s Ford that gets blamed not Vistion (?)
The Lib Dems have pros and cons as targets for ire. They are quiet and polite types, easily bullied. So an easy target when looking for scapegoats. But not the actual current government, so nowhere near as explosive as something involving them.
Layla's time is gone and there are no obvious others.
As it stands despite all the apparent unhappiness among the right wing voters in the 'Blue Wall' LD are heading for 20 seats.
The horrible phrase "Not fit for purpose" is right here.
They sold faulty goods.
The dealers (PO) carried on selling the faulty cars, prosecuting people for the inability to drive round corners etc, after *they knew* the cars were faulty.
The manufacturer is liable *and* the PO is liable.
Davey is also more heavyweight than Cooper
https://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/targets/liberal-democrat
I can’t really blame any politicians, save for those who failed to give a shit once the full scandal unravelled. Chief culprit there seems to be Kemi Badenoch.
But agree with Foxy above, that Davey owes a long-form explanation. He may already be too late.
If they have any sense (and I think the current management do), they're doing ca. 40 very local campaigns of the "Yourtown's Voice At Westminster" sort. All-in in those constituencies (to the extent that you can probably identify them from the uptick in paper being recycled, thanks to all those Focus leaflets), but minimal elsewhere.
If Sunak and Badenoch don't handle it very adroitly there will be a lot more political casualties.