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Rishi Sunak has taken my advice – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,687
edited January 8 in General
Rishi Sunak has taken my advice – politicalbetting.com

NEW — Rishi Sunak: "My working assumption is we'll have a general election in the second half of this year." https://t.co/PwIa4rQtu3

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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,801
    First.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,315
    Sam Coates of Sky speculating it will be the 14th November and after the US election
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    eekeek Posts: 24,983

    Sam Coates of Sky speculating it will be the 14th November and after the US election

    Resulting in the last week being focused on how will we cope with Trump in the white house and no more NATO
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    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,545

    Sam Coates of Sky speculating it will be the 14th November and after the US election

    It will be in September partly because of the US election. This timing works best to reduce the size of the Tory defeat.
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    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,482
    algarkirk said:

    Sam Coates of Sky speculating it will be the 14th November and after the US election

    It will be in September partly because of the US election. This timing works best to reduce the size of the Tory defeat.
    Doesn't that mean that the campaign has to start in August, which I can't imagine being popular.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,983
    algarkirk said:

    Sam Coates of Sky speculating it will be the 14th November and after the US election

    It will be in September partly because of the US election. This timing works best to reduce the size of the Tory defeat.
    That means an announcement in July / August with campaigning through the summer holidays.

    It doesn’t work which is why November / December seems more plausible.

    You eventually end up back in May because the other options are insane
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    MaxPB said:

    Blimey a rush of PB Prediction Competition entries this morning now up to 59 entries.

    There's still time for to enter before the end of Saturday. I'll aim to publish a reminder and a list of all the entries I have recorded, on Saturday.

    Thanks all!

    Could you post the questions pls? I missed them the first time around, thanks!
    Here you go: Closing time is 23:59 on Saturday 6th January.

    The Questions:

    1. The smallest Labour lead with a BPC registered pollster in Q1 2024.

    2. Date of the next UK General Election.

    3. Party leaders of Con, Lab, LD, SNP, and Reform when the GE is called

    4. UK General Election outcome: winning party + majority (±10%).

    5. 2024 US Presidential Election: nominees for the GOP and Dems.

    6. 2024 US Presidential Election: winner.

    7. UK base rate on 31 December 2024.

    8. UK CPI figure for November 2024 (Nov 2023 = 4.2% - correction 3.9%, 4.2% was CPIH).

    9. UK borrowing in the financial year-to-November 2024 (Year to Nov 2023 = £116.4bn).

    10. GB total medal haul at the 2024 Olympics ( 2020/21 = 64).

    Thanks @Benpointer in case you missed them from the last thread:

    1. The smallest Labour lead with a BPC registered pollster in Q1 2024 - 9%
    2. Date of the next UK General Election - 14th November
    3. Party leaders of Con, Lab, LD, SNP, and Reform when the GE is called - Sunak, Starmer, Davey, Yousaf, Tice
    4. UK General Election outcome: winning party + majority (±10%) - Labour win, 64 seat majority
    5. 2024 US Presidential Election: nominees for the GOP and Dems - Trump & Biden
    6. 2024 US Presidential Election: winner - Biden
    7. UK base rate on 31 December 2024 - 3.75%
    8. UK CPI figure for November 2024 (Nov 2023 = 4.2%) - 2.3%
    9. UK borrowing in the financial year-to-November 2024 (Year to Nov 2023 = £116.4bn) - £89bn
    10. GB total medal haul at the 2024 Olympics ( 2020/21 = 64) - 61
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,632

    algarkirk said:

    Sam Coates of Sky speculating it will be the 14th November and after the US election

    It will be in September partly because of the US election. This timing works best to reduce the size of the Tory defeat.
    Doesn't that mean that the campaign has to start in August, which I can't imagine being popular.
    All those militant lefty teachers will have plenty of time to go out canvassing and leafleting.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    I notice that the person from Sky is suggesting the same election date as me. My logic behind it is that lots of liberals in this country do and will get caught up in US politics so will pay less attention to the UK campaign and generally be less enthused to go out and vote on the day. I don't think it will be a huge effect but elections are all about fine margins.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    I'm not sure there would have much downside to actually naming the date now. We all know it is an election year, so put us out our misery and we can all get on with life until then.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    algarkirk said:

    Sam Coates of Sky speculating it will be the 14th November and after the US election

    It will be in September partly because of the US election. This timing works best to reduce the size of the Tory defeat.
    Summer campaign? No chance. MPs are unlikely to give up their summer holiday to campaign, it will make Rishi even more unpopular than he already is.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    How many people have already had their election date buggered in the sweep-stake? :)
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,394
    Nice little trade for me laying April-June at 3.2s over the last few days.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,684
    I predicted Biden would win in the competition, but in reality I'm not very confident about it.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Also nice to see my political radar is still pretty good me from a few days ago -

    The election is absolutely going to be in October or November. All of this talk of May is nonsense. The government will want whatever tax cuts they are pushing through in March to land in people's pay for a significant amount of time, for interest rates to be falling with inflation to be at or below 2% and for petrol prices to have stabilised at 125p - 130p. All of those will happen after the summer, not before. In addition waiting until October or November will mean people will have had a year's worth of real terms pay rises, they will feel much better off in November than they will in May, especially with mortgage rates dropping below 4% already.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,986
    Richi emerges as a dithering idiot...
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    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,482

    How many people have already had their election date buggered in the sweep-stake? :)

    Nobody yet. After all, anything said that isn't said from behind a lectern in Downing Street is largely psy-ops.

    If the polls turn round by mid-March, a May election is still on. (They almost certainly won't, but that's another matter.)
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    On the downside, we now deffo have eleven more months of junior doctors' strikes....
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,632
    Rishi: "My working assumption is that I will be living in California this time next year."
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    How many people have already had their election date buggered in the sweep-stake? :)

    Nobody yet. After all, anything said that isn't said from behind a lectern in Downing Street is largely psy-ops.

    If the polls turn round by mid-March, a May election is still on. (They almost certainly won't, but that's another matter.)
    Nope.

    "Why did you lie about the election date, Prime Minister?"
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,320

    How many people have already had their election date buggered in the sweep-stake? :)

    Anyone submitting their entry from now on should have points deducted. ;)
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    PoulterPoulter Posts: 62
    edited January 4
    How fortunate that no events could possibly occur in the next 3-4 months that might affect the PM's working assumption he announced on 4th January.

    E.g. calling what's sold as a snapper ("coincidentally" on the same day as the London mayoral) to show the judges the extent to which the government is in tune with the will of the people as regards stopping boats coming in and sending full planes out in the other direction.

    News items: Prime Minister Tells Judges to Stay Out of the Election, followed by Sadiq Khan Addresses Londoners in Urdu.

    How will that play in the "Red Wall", to use a soon to be outdated term? ("Doughnut" might be the replacement term of art, with London as the hole.)

    Brace for the nastiest election in living memory.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756
    Can Starmer really avoid saying anything for another 10 months ?
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,986
    @KevinASchofield

    Who could possibly have foreseen this?

    A source close to Keir Starmer told HuffPost before Christmas: “If Sunak doesn’t call an election for May then it just shows he’s weak and a bottler. We’ll just spend months hammering home that message.”
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,986
    @SkyNews

    "Rishi Sunak wants to continue to squat in Downing Street".

    Shadow paymaster general @JonAshworth says he thinks the British public consider the PM to be "weak and desperate".

    https://trib.al/LlS4FAA
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756
    Scott_xP said:

    @SkyNews

    "Rishi Sunak wants to continue to squat in Downing Street".

    Shadow paymaster general @JonAshworth says he thinks the British public consider the PM to be "weak and desperate".

    https://trib.al/LlS4FAA

    it's weak and desperate versus clueless and boring.

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    Can Starmer really avoid saying anything for another 10 months ?

    He won't say what you want him to say. Or what you need him to say. However, he will say plenty of other things.
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    PoulterPoulter Posts: 62
    edited January 4
    MaxPB said:

    Also nice to see my political radar is still pretty good me from a few days ago -

    The election is absolutely going to be in October or November. All of this talk of May is nonsense. The government will want whatever tax cuts they are pushing through in March to land in people's pay for a significant amount of time, for interest rates to be falling with inflation to be at or below 2% and for petrol prices to have stabilised at 125p - 130p. All of those will happen after the summer, not before. In addition waiting until October or November will mean people will have had a year's worth of real terms pay rises, they will feel much better off in November than they will in May, especially with mortgage rates dropping below 4% already.

    So a "You haven't had it so good for a long time" election, just before next winter? How you can be so certain ("will happen") of post-summer interest rates and petrol prices given unknowns including Russia-Ukraine and the Middle East, and whatever craziness might happen in the US too, I dunno.
    Scott_xP said:

    @KevinASchofield

    Who could possibly have foreseen this?

    A source close to Keir Starmer told HuffPost before Christmas: “If Sunak doesn’t call an election for May then it just shows he’s weak and a bottler. We’ll just spend months hammering home that message.”

    Can Starmer really be such a moron? After saying for a few months that Sunak is weak and scared, what will he switch to when Sunak (or successor) starts handing out pre-election red meat and sweeties?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Scott_xP said:

    @SkyNews

    "Rishi Sunak wants to continue to squat in Downing Street".

    Shadow paymaster general @JonAshworth says he thinks the British public consider the PM to be "weak and desperate".

    https://trib.al/LlS4FAA

    You'd have thought turning Downing Street into a squat would be cool with the lefties...
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756

    Can Starmer really avoid saying anything for another 10 months ?

    He won't say what you want him to say. Or what you need him to say. However, he will say plenty of other things.
    Today was basically recycling "things can only get better".
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,986

    You'd have thought turning Downing Street into a squat would be cool with the lefties...

    Squatting is woke...
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Scott_xP said:

    @KevinASchofield

    Who could possibly have foreseen this?

    A source close to Keir Starmer told HuffPost before Christmas: “If Sunak doesn’t call an election for May then it just shows he’s weak and a bottler. We’ll just spend months hammering home that message.”

    Damning that they have no other message to hammer home...
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    On topic - do those tweets really rule out a Spring election? Its obvious that while Mr Sunak retains the right to call the GE he is desperate to try to keep his options open. At the moment he is boxed out for January 2025 and about to be forced to give up on Spring 2024. That leaves his area of potential choice dwindling rapidly.

    I suspect Spring 2024 may have turned out to be his best chance and he is being nicely manouvered out of the option.
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,590
    Keir Fear is definitely here.

    And Rishi is bottling it (pun intended).
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,649

    Can Starmer really avoid saying anything for another 10 months ?

    The potentially helpful thing for Starmer with this meme, which increasingly flies in the face of the volume of actual policy announcements made by Labour, is that it makes it harder for the Tory press to terrify cowering middle-England about the terrible things Starmer has planned. Because they are trying to pretend he doesn't have any policies. While simultaneously pretending the Tories actually have meaningful policies rather than simply a whole long list of election tactics masquerading as policy.
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    Can Starmer really avoid saying anything for another 10 months ?

    He's avoided saying all that much for the past 61 years, so another 10 months shouldn't be too much of a problem for him.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756

    Can Starmer really avoid saying anything for another 10 months ?

    He's avoided saying all that much for the past 61 years, so another 10 months shouldn't be too much of a problem for him.
    Quite
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,590

    On topic - do those tweets really rule out a Spring election? Its obvious that while Mr Sunak retains the right to call the GE he is desperate to try to keep his options open. At the moment he is boxed out for January 2025 and about to be forced to give up on Spring 2024. That leaves his area of potential choice dwindling rapidly.

    I suspect Spring 2024 may have turned out to be his best chance and he is being nicely manouvered out of the option.

    Sunak's statement ain't exactly ruling out anything.

    Certainly NOT Sherman-esque in classic sense.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756
    TimS said:

    Can Starmer really avoid saying anything for another 10 months ?

    The potentially helpful thing for Starmer with this meme, which increasingly flies in the face of the volume of actual policy announcements made by Labour, is that it makes it harder for the Tory press to terrify cowering middle-England about the terrible things Starmer has planned. Because they are trying to pretend he doesn't have any policies. While simultaneously pretending the Tories actually have meaningful policies rather than simply a whole long list of election tactics masquerading as policy.
    Neither Labour or the Tories have any meaningful policies.

    Starmer had the chance to do something re housing but theres nothing to back it up.

    In the end he'll wibble and do nothing.
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    I should make my losing entry -

    1. The smallest Labour lead with a BPC registered pollster in Q1 2024. = 10%

    2. Date of the next UK General Election. = 27 October 2024

    3. Party leaders of Con, Lab, LD, SNP, and Reform when the GE is called = Sunak, Starmer, Davey, Yousaf, Tice

    4. UK General Election outcome: winning party + majority (±10%). = Lab with a 50-seat majority

    5. 2024 US Presidential Election: nominees for the GOP and Dems. = Trump and Biden

    6. 2024 US Presidential Election: winner. = Biden

    7. UK base rate on 31 December 2024. = 4.25%

    8. UK CPI figure for November 2024 (Nov 2023 = 4.2% - correction 3.9%, 4.2% was CPIH). = 3.5%

    9. UK borrowing in the financial year-to-November 2024 (Year to Nov 2023 = £116.4bn). = £120 bn

    10. GB total medal haul at the 2024 Olympics ( 2020/21 = 64). = 40
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    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,482

    Can Starmer really avoid saying anything for another 10 months ?

    He's avoided saying all that much for the past 61 years, so another 10 months shouldn't be too much of a problem for him.
    Quite
    Here's the thing, though.

    "Make Britain Boring Again" is probably pretty popular with the voters. At least part of the appeal of "Get Brexit Done" was the (untrue) idea that we would be able to stop thinking about it.

    See also this line from Starmer's speech today;

    “I promise this- a politics which treads a little lighter on all our lives. That’s the thing about populism or nationalism…It needs your full attention, needs you constantly focussing on this week’s common enemy. And that’s exhausting.”
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    How many people have already had their election date buggered in the sweep-stake? :)

    Anyone submitting their entry from now on should have points deducted. ;)
    Never enter until one minute to midnight....

    Has Ed Davey resigned yet?
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    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,653
    MaxPB said:

    I notice that the person from Sky is suggesting the same election date as me. My logic behind it is that lots of liberals in this country do and will get caught up in US politics so will pay less attention to the UK campaign and generally be less enthused to go out and vote on the day. I don't think it will be a huge effect but elections are all about fine margins.

    Why will people into US politics be less enthused to go out and vote? I'd've thought that it would rile people up to go vote!
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    londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,197
    I put down 2 May for @Benpointer 's prediction competition and shall stick with it notwithstanding the indications to the contrary. Anything is possible.
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,649
    The Wellingborough byelection and prospects for the May locals will have something to say about this. If Wellingborough flips on a big swing then it probably cements an election as late as possible, which implies Nov/Dec. If Wellingborough is close, or even a hold, then the temptation to go in the spring must rise.

    Conversely the worse the government are doing in polling the bigger a problem the May locals will be, because they'll deliver yet another blow only a few months out from a GE. Whereas burying them together with a general takes this risk away.
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    PhilPhil Posts: 1,942

    TimS said:

    Can Starmer really avoid saying anything for another 10 months ?

    The potentially helpful thing for Starmer with this meme, which increasingly flies in the face of the volume of actual policy announcements made by Labour, is that it makes it harder for the Tory press to terrify cowering middle-England about the terrible things Starmer has planned. Because they are trying to pretend he doesn't have any policies. While simultaneously pretending the Tories actually have meaningful policies rather than simply a whole long list of election tactics masquerading as policy.
    Neither Labour or the Tories have any meaningful policies.

    Starmer had the chance to do something re housing but theres nothing to back it up.

    In the end he'll wibble and do nothing.
    A “doing nothing” government that just concentrated on competently getting on with the small stuff would be a vast improvement on the current shower of fools and imbeciles.
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    How many people have already had their election date buggered in the sweep-stake? :)

    Nobody yet. After all, anything said that isn't said from behind a lectern in Downing Street is largely psy-ops.

    If the polls turn round by mid-March, a May election is still on. (They almost certainly won't, but that's another matter.)
    Nope.

    "Why did you lie about the election date, Prime Minister?"
    That's easy to respond to. A "working assumption" (a strange formulation given it's his choice but be that as it may) is just that.

    He just needs some credible pretext like defeat on Rwanda or whatever in the Lords or courts to say, "My preference was to wait and take the Parliament to term... but the People's Priorities cannot wait and it's important I get a mandate now so I can overcome the unelected judges, woke bureaucrats, and metropolitan elite Barons, and get things done the Rishi way - without delay."
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    Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,508
    FPT: Since you were discussing diets, I'll mention one with a remarkable record of success:

    Some years ago, I learned that Alabama gave its sheriffs fixed amounts per day for each inmate in the county jails. If the sheriff was efficient in feeding the prisoners, he was allowed to keep any money he saved out of those amounts. Not surprisingly, some inmates lost signficant amounts of weight, even during short stays in the jails. (As I recall, as much as two stones, or more.)

    It occurred to me that -- as desperate as some people are to lose weight -- an entrepreneur might be able to learn from this experience. and market Alabama Jailhouse diets.

    (For the record: I believe they changed the system in Alabama, soon after the stories about the abuse came out.)
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756

    Can Starmer really avoid saying anything for another 10 months ?

    He's avoided saying all that much for the past 61 years, so another 10 months shouldn't be too much of a problem for him.
    Quite
    Here's the thing, though.

    "Make Britain Boring Again" is probably pretty popular with the voters. At least part of the appeal of "Get Brexit Done" was the (untrue) idea that we would be able to stop thinking about it.

    See also this line from Starmer's speech today;

    “I promise this- a politics which treads a little lighter on all our lives. That’s the thing about populism or nationalism…It needs your full attention, needs you constantly focussing on this week’s common enemy. And that’s exhausting.”
    The voters are immensely fickle "boring" wont cut it for long. Well quickly move from helicopter jokes to Vickie Pollard ones.

    As for his claim of less politics I cant see a lawyer unburdening the nation by having fewer laws,
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756
    Phil said:

    TimS said:

    Can Starmer really avoid saying anything for another 10 months ?

    The potentially helpful thing for Starmer with this meme, which increasingly flies in the face of the volume of actual policy announcements made by Labour, is that it makes it harder for the Tory press to terrify cowering middle-England about the terrible things Starmer has planned. Because they are trying to pretend he doesn't have any policies. While simultaneously pretending the Tories actually have meaningful policies rather than simply a whole long list of election tactics masquerading as policy.
    Neither Labour or the Tories have any meaningful policies.

    Starmer had the chance to do something re housing but theres nothing to back it up.

    In the end he'll wibble and do nothing.
    A “doing nothing” government that just concentrated on competently getting on with the small stuff would be a vast improvement on the current shower of fools and imbeciles.
    Problem is we need some big stuff - like housing and economic growth.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Phil said:

    TimS said:

    Can Starmer really avoid saying anything for another 10 months ?

    The potentially helpful thing for Starmer with this meme, which increasingly flies in the face of the volume of actual policy announcements made by Labour, is that it makes it harder for the Tory press to terrify cowering middle-England about the terrible things Starmer has planned. Because they are trying to pretend he doesn't have any policies. While simultaneously pretending the Tories actually have meaningful policies rather than simply a whole long list of election tactics masquerading as policy.
    Neither Labour or the Tories have any meaningful policies.

    Starmer had the chance to do something re housing but theres nothing to back it up.

    In the end he'll wibble and do nothing.
    A “doing nothing” government that just concentrated on competently getting on with the small stuff would be a vast improvement on the current shower of fools and imbeciles.
    With a waiting list of 7m on the NHS, 750k net migration and low levels of house building, "getting on with the small stuff" isn't enough. We need a great reformer to come in and fix the state. More people than ever are employed directly and indirectly by the state and outcomes are worse than ever. Spending and taxation is the highest it's ever been and everything is getting worse. Doing nothing isn't an option.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756
    MaxPB said:

    Phil said:

    TimS said:

    Can Starmer really avoid saying anything for another 10 months ?

    The potentially helpful thing for Starmer with this meme, which increasingly flies in the face of the volume of actual policy announcements made by Labour, is that it makes it harder for the Tory press to terrify cowering middle-England about the terrible things Starmer has planned. Because they are trying to pretend he doesn't have any policies. While simultaneously pretending the Tories actually have meaningful policies rather than simply a whole long list of election tactics masquerading as policy.
    Neither Labour or the Tories have any meaningful policies.

    Starmer had the chance to do something re housing but theres nothing to back it up.

    In the end he'll wibble and do nothing.
    A “doing nothing” government that just concentrated on competently getting on with the small stuff would be a vast improvement on the current shower of fools and imbeciles.
    With a waiting list of 7m on the NHS, 750k net migration and low levels of house building, "getting on with the small stuff" isn't enough. We need a great reformer to come in and fix the state. More people than ever are employed directly and indirectly by the state and outcomes are worse than ever. Spending and taxation is the highest it's ever been and everything is getting worse. Doing nothing isn't an option.
    Whats the Starmer equivalent of the cones hotline ?
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,465
    Phil said:

    TimS said:

    Can Starmer really avoid saying anything for another 10 months ?

    The potentially helpful thing for Starmer with this meme, which increasingly flies in the face of the volume of actual policy announcements made by Labour, is that it makes it harder for the Tory press to terrify cowering middle-England about the terrible things Starmer has planned. Because they are trying to pretend he doesn't have any policies. While simultaneously pretending the Tories actually have meaningful policies rather than simply a whole long list of election tactics masquerading as policy.
    Neither Labour or the Tories have any meaningful policies.

    Starmer had the chance to do something re housing but theres nothing to back it up.

    In the end he'll wibble and do nothing.
    A “doing nothing” government that just concentrated on competently getting on with the small stuff would be a vast improvement on the current shower of fools and imbeciles.
    A "doing nothing" Government is not going to work given the challenges being posed at the u-bend stage of 150 years of national decline. Doing nothing (but very grown-uply) is effectively the Sunak sell. It's growingly acknowledged that there would have been considerably more merit in staying on the Truss growth rollercoaster, than sinking in to the Sunak slough of economic despond.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    MaxPB said:

    Phil said:

    TimS said:

    Can Starmer really avoid saying anything for another 10 months ?

    The potentially helpful thing for Starmer with this meme, which increasingly flies in the face of the volume of actual policy announcements made by Labour, is that it makes it harder for the Tory press to terrify cowering middle-England about the terrible things Starmer has planned. Because they are trying to pretend he doesn't have any policies. While simultaneously pretending the Tories actually have meaningful policies rather than simply a whole long list of election tactics masquerading as policy.
    Neither Labour or the Tories have any meaningful policies.

    Starmer had the chance to do something re housing but theres nothing to back it up.

    In the end he'll wibble and do nothing.
    A “doing nothing” government that just concentrated on competently getting on with the small stuff would be a vast improvement on the current shower of fools and imbeciles.
    With a waiting list of 7m on the NHS, 750k net migration and low levels of house building, "getting on with the small stuff" isn't enough. We need a great reformer to come in and fix the state. More people than ever are employed directly and indirectly by the state and outcomes are worse than ever. Spending and taxation is the highest it's ever been and everything is getting worse. Doing nothing isn't an option.
    Whats the Starmer equivalent of the cones hotline ?
    Cones Hotline 2.0
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    Yes, Sunak as I long said too cares more about staying in No 10 as long as possible than saving a few Tory councillors seats in May due to higher Tory voters voting as the locals coincide with the general election. By announcing now he also rules out the 'bottler charge' when he avoids May.

    Also, he may hope for the gap to close a little. After all, as I said on the previous thread the Labour share at the 2010 GE was higher than their voteshare in the 2009 locals, as the Tory share at the 1997 GE was slightly higher than their voteshare at the 1996 locals even if Brown and Major still lost
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,590

    MaxPB said:

    I notice that the person from Sky is suggesting the same election date as me. My logic behind it is that lots of liberals in this country do and will get caught up in US politics so will pay less attention to the UK campaign and generally be less enthused to go out and vote on the day. I don't think it will be a huge effect but elections are all about fine margins.

    Why will people into US politics be less enthused to go out and vote? I'd've thought that it would rile people up to go vote!
    Yes.

    In fact, the whole argument that holding UK GE24 at approx same time as US GE24 would be problematic, is gobbledygook.

    Note that in Canada - USA's nearest & dearest neighbor - federal general elections have often been scheduled in proximity to POTUS elections south of the Great White North.

    For example: 1972, 1988, 2000, 2008
  • Options

    Can Starmer really avoid saying anything for another 10 months ?

    He's avoided saying all that much for the past 61 years, so another 10 months shouldn't be too much of a problem for him.
    Quite
    Here's the thing, though.

    "Make Britain Boring Again" is probably pretty popular with the voters. At least part of the appeal of "Get Brexit Done" was the (untrue) idea that we would be able to stop thinking about it.

    See also this line from Starmer's speech today;

    “I promise this- a politics which treads a little lighter on all our lives. That’s the thing about populism or nationalism…It needs your full attention, needs you constantly focussing on this week’s common enemy. And that’s exhausting.”
    The voters are immensely fickle "boring" wont cut it for long. Well quickly move from helicopter jokes to Vickie Pollard ones.

    As for his claim of less politics I cant see a lawyer unburdening the nation by having fewer laws,
    Having fewer laws isn't the same as making things less political. Deregulation is intensely political, while new laws are only a "political" as you want them to be - the Rwanda Bill is tiny in length but controversial, whereas the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill is pretty lengthy and I'm sure terribly important, but not very exiciting to very many people.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    eek said:

    Sam Coates of Sky speculating it will be the 14th November and after the US election

    Resulting in the last week being focused on how will we cope with Trump in the white house and no more NATO
    Or Trump in jail but having re elected Biden by default after going 3rd party and taking votes from the GOP nominee (hence also encouraging Farage and Reform here)
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    The proposed election date leaves Starmer likely incoming with a massive nursery funding/places headache. The 15 hours eligibility skips to children born between April 2022 and November 2023 in September 2024 !

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GzjM2Yg0ih4MLcoAKDHpfGF-YS5gMFQaWfFjM8bhOAU/edit?usp=sharing
  • Options
    ClippPClippP Posts: 1,687
    I wonder if TSE is right.... Sunak let slip the other day that the election would be in May, so everybody started preparing for it then, especially the opposition parties. He lost the advantage of taking everybody by surprise.

    So he has now gone into reverse, and more or less said that it will be in the autumn, so everybody slows down a bit, especially the opposition parties.

    All Sunak has to do is change his mind once again, and he catches everybody out.

    Would anybody put that scenario past him?
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,632
    Sunak's "working assumption" makes it sound like he is waiting for someone else to tell him the date.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756

    Can Starmer really avoid saying anything for another 10 months ?

    He's avoided saying all that much for the past 61 years, so another 10 months shouldn't be too much of a problem for him.
    Quite
    Here's the thing, though.

    "Make Britain Boring Again" is probably pretty popular with the voters. At least part of the appeal of "Get Brexit Done" was the (untrue) idea that we would be able to stop thinking about it.

    See also this line from Starmer's speech today;

    “I promise this- a politics which treads a little lighter on all our lives. That’s the thing about populism or nationalism…It needs your full attention, needs you constantly focussing on this week’s common enemy. And that’s exhausting.”
    The voters are immensely fickle "boring" wont cut it for long. Well quickly move from helicopter jokes to Vickie Pollard ones.

    As for his claim of less politics I cant see a lawyer unburdening the nation by having fewer laws,
    Having fewer laws isn't the same as making things less political. Deregulation is intensely political, while new laws are only a "political" as you want them to be - the Rwanda Bill is tiny in length but controversial, whereas the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill is pretty lengthy and I'm sure terribly important, but not very exiciting to very many people.
    I look forward to his less political approach of trying to build 100,000s houses in Southern England.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,250

    I put down 2 May for @Benpointer 's prediction competition and shall stick with it notwithstanding the indications to the contrary. Anything is possible.

    I am doing the same. I can see how Sunak could build momentum with a short build to an election campaign straight after the budget.

    If he goes longer
    Giveaway budget laughed apart or forces another market scare
    Tories get an utter demolition in the locals
    Banckbenchers go at him and each other all summer long
    Endless NHS crisis
    Big spike in small boats and deadlock on the Rwanda bill
    Recession / at best flat economy + tax rises make people feel poor
    King is away in October, threat of chaos in UK in November

    I know that @MaxPB postulates he goes long so that economic benefits get into people's pockets. There are no economic benefits. The "tax cut" is a tax rise, and any giveaway budget in May threatens another market collapse.

    Whilst I am sure he is frit, and no decision will be easier than a decision, the longer this goes on the worse the result. cf 1978 and 2007.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,590
    Thought that Gen. Sir Alan Brooke > Lord Alanbrooke was something of a poster child for Fabian strategy in WW2?

    IIRC, he wasn't what you'd call keen to get stuck into the Germans in 1940, '41, '42 & '43.

    And for good reason(s).
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    On topic, I'm sticking with Nov 14th, as a birthday present to the king.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756

    Thought that Gen. Sir Alan Brooke > Lord Alanbrooke was something of a poster child for Fabian strategy in WW2?

    IIRC, he wasn't what you'd call keen to get stuck into the Germans in 1940, '41, '42 & '43.

    And for good reason(s).

    Didnt understand any of that.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    ClippP said:

    I wonder if TSE is right.... Sunak let slip the other day that the election would be in May, so everybody started preparing for it then, especially the opposition parties. He lost the advantage of taking everybody by surprise.

    So he has now gone into reverse, and more or less said that it will be in the autumn, so everybody slows down a bit, especially the opposition parties.

    All Sunak has to do is change his mind once again, and he catches everybody out.

    Would anybody put that scenario past him?

    Any sensible party will be preparing for April, just in case - never mind May. That doesn't mean they think it will be but they'll have plans ready to go.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,545
    eek said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sam Coates of Sky speculating it will be the 14th November and after the US election

    It will be in September partly because of the US election. This timing works best to reduce the size of the Tory defeat.
    That means an announcement in July / August with campaigning through the summer holidays.

    It doesn’t work which is why November / December seems more plausible.

    You eventually end up back in May because the other options are insane
    Announcement shortly after Olympics end/towards the end of August, using the tactic of surprise and building on the momentum of summer, hols, Euros, Olympics, less attention on politics.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,986
    @DamianLow3
    It’s a good start to 2024 for Labour as their lead increases to 17 points in our latest @wethinkpolling poll.

    These are numbers no govt wants going into an election year. The 2 point increase for the Reform Party will also have the govt worried.


  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,226

    Phil said:

    TimS said:

    Can Starmer really avoid saying anything for another 10 months ?

    The potentially helpful thing for Starmer with this meme, which increasingly flies in the face of the volume of actual policy announcements made by Labour, is that it makes it harder for the Tory press to terrify cowering middle-England about the terrible things Starmer has planned. Because they are trying to pretend he doesn't have any policies. While simultaneously pretending the Tories actually have meaningful policies rather than simply a whole long list of election tactics masquerading as policy.
    Neither Labour or the Tories have any meaningful policies.

    Starmer had the chance to do something re housing but theres nothing to back it up.

    In the end he'll wibble and do nothing.
    A “doing nothing” government that just concentrated on competently getting on with the small stuff would be a vast improvement on the current shower of fools and imbeciles.
    A "doing nothing" Government is not going to work given the challenges being posed at the u-bend stage of 150 years of national decline. Doing nothing (but very grown-uply) is effectively the Sunak sell. It's growingly acknowledged that there would have been considerably more merit in staying on the Truss growth rollercoaster, than sinking in to the Sunak slough of economic despond.
    I thought you got rises as well as falls on a rollercoaster?
  • Options
    Jim_the_LurkerJim_the_Lurker Posts: 81
    edited January 4

    MaxPB said:

    I notice that the person from Sky is suggesting the same election date as me. My logic behind it is that lots of liberals in this country do and will get caught up in US politics so will pay less attention to the UK campaign and generally be less enthused to go out and vote on the day. I don't think it will be a huge effect but elections are all about fine margins.

    Why will people into US politics be less enthused to go out and vote? I'd've thought that it would rile people up to go vote!
    Yes.

    In fact, the whole argument that holding UK GE24 at approx same time as US GE24 would be problematic, is gobbledygook.

    Note that in Canada - USA's nearest & dearest neighbor - federal general elections have often been scheduled in proximity to POTUS elections south of the Great White North.

    For example: 1972, 1988, 2000, 2008
    Indeed, I can't understand why little old Britain holding its general election at the same time as the Americans is bad, but I may not follow the argument well enough.

    Although I appreciate that a clash would prevent UK politico journos rinsing expenses en masse with a month or two stateside following the circus of the US presidential (the premier league of elections).
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Scott_xP said:

    @DamianLow3
    It’s a good start to 2024 for Labour as their lead increases to 17 points in our latest @wethinkpolling poll.

    These are numbers no govt wants going into an election year. The 2 point increase for the Reform Party will also have the govt worried.


    Rishi isn't going to go early with polls like this.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    On topic - do those tweets really rule out a Spring election? Its obvious that while Mr Sunak retains the right to call the GE he is desperate to try to keep his options open. At the moment he is boxed out for January 2025 and about to be forced to give up on Spring 2024. That leaves his area of potential choice dwindling rapidly.

    I suspect Spring 2024 may have turned out to be his best chance and he is being nicely manouvered out of the option.

    No, they don't rule it out.

    However, polls like the WeThink today giving Labour a 17-point lead aren't exactly going to entice him.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,250

    MaxPB said:

    I notice that the person from Sky is suggesting the same election date as me. My logic behind it is that lots of liberals in this country do and will get caught up in US politics so will pay less attention to the UK campaign and generally be less enthused to go out and vote on the day. I don't think it will be a huge effect but elections are all about fine margins.

    Why will people into US politics be less enthused to go out and vote? I'd've thought that it would rile people up to go vote!
    Yes.

    In fact, the whole argument that holding UK GE24 at approx same time as US GE24 would be problematic, is gobbledygook.

    Note that in Canada - USA's nearest & dearest neighbor - federal general elections have often been scheduled in proximity to POTUS elections south of the Great White North.

    For example: 1972, 1988, 2000, 2008
    Indeed, I can't understand why little old Britain holding its general election at the same time as the Americans is bad, but I may not follow the argument well enough.

    Although I appreciate that a clash would prevent UK politico journos rinsing expenses en masse with a month or two stateside following the circus of the US presidential (the premier league of elections).
    Ordinarily its not an issue. This time? If Trump is both the candidate and insurrection is threatened by *both sides*? More of an issue.

    A contested riotous US election threatens the stability of the west. Which is why (reportedly) the UK senior civil service have told Sunak he can't have November.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,465
    ...
    kinabalu said:

    Phil said:

    TimS said:

    Can Starmer really avoid saying anything for another 10 months ?

    The potentially helpful thing for Starmer with this meme, which increasingly flies in the face of the volume of actual policy announcements made by Labour, is that it makes it harder for the Tory press to terrify cowering middle-England about the terrible things Starmer has planned. Because they are trying to pretend he doesn't have any policies. While simultaneously pretending the Tories actually have meaningful policies rather than simply a whole long list of election tactics masquerading as policy.
    Neither Labour or the Tories have any meaningful policies.

    Starmer had the chance to do something re housing but theres nothing to back it up.

    In the end he'll wibble and do nothing.
    A “doing nothing” government that just concentrated on competently getting on with the small stuff would be a vast improvement on the current shower of fools and imbeciles.
    A "doing nothing" Government is not going to work given the challenges being posed at the u-bend stage of 150 years of national decline. Doing nothing (but very grown-uply) is effectively the Sunak sell. It's growingly acknowledged that there would have been considerably more merit in staying on the Truss growth rollercoaster, than sinking in to the Sunak slough of economic despond.
    I thought you got rises as well as falls on a rollercoaster?
    Tory MPs bailed before we got any rises.
  • Options

    Can Starmer really avoid saying anything for another 10 months ?

    He's avoided saying all that much for the past 61 years, so another 10 months shouldn't be too much of a problem for him.
    Quite
    Here's the thing, though.

    "Make Britain Boring Again" is probably pretty popular with the voters. At least part of the appeal of "Get Brexit Done" was the (untrue) idea that we would be able to stop thinking about it.

    See also this line from Starmer's speech today;

    “I promise this- a politics which treads a little lighter on all our lives. That’s the thing about populism or nationalism…It needs your full attention, needs you constantly focussing on this week’s common enemy. And that’s exhausting.”
    The voters are immensely fickle "boring" wont cut it for long. Well quickly move from helicopter jokes to Vickie Pollard ones.

    As for his claim of less politics I cant see a lawyer unburdening the nation by having fewer laws,
    Having fewer laws isn't the same as making things less political. Deregulation is intensely political, while new laws are only a "political" as you want them to be - the Rwanda Bill is tiny in length but controversial, whereas the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill is pretty lengthy and I'm sure terribly important, but not very exiciting to very many people.
    I look forward to his less political approach of trying to build 100,000s houses in Southern England.
    A load of NIMBY-tinged local rows in mainly Tory or Lib Dem areas is "political" in a sense, sure. Councils will fall, banners will be unfurled, a by-election may be lost if an MP dies or resigns in an inconvenient location. But these aren't the grand, national political battles about the direction of the country and survival of PMs etc. This is the Government making it harder for councils to refuse permission, then local games where parties pass the buck on who is to blame for developments X and Y being where they are and how they are.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756
    New Labour, it should be remembered, did almost nothing to challenge eighteen years of restrictive Tory anti-trade-union legislation; argued that key public utilities such a rail, energy. and water should remain in private ownership; continued to leverage private capital in the financing and running of other public services, including the cherished National Health Service; developed a highly punitive welfare system; failed to replace the council housing stock sold under Thatcher; and further deregulated the financial sector ahead of the 2008 financial crisis.


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/how-new-labour-abandoned-workers/ar-AA1mrK4b?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=0cb461ae62494ea2b195789f3a0ac8fa&ei=9
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,482
    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sam Coates of Sky speculating it will be the 14th November and after the US election

    It will be in September partly because of the US election. This timing works best to reduce the size of the Tory defeat.
    That means an announcement in July / August with campaigning through the summer holidays.

    It doesn’t work which is why November / December seems more plausible.

    You eventually end up back in May because the other options are insane
    Announcement shortly after Olympics end/towards the end of August, using the tactic of surprise and building on the momentum of summer, hols, Euros, Olympics, less attention on politics.
    Constraint there is the newish rule that election campaigns have to be 25 working days long. (In the old days, it was only 17). So even the first Thursday in October means calling the election in late August. Similarly, if you want to avoid campaign contamination by the Commonwealth summit and the US elections, you end up with a mid December election date.

    Which is what I'm reckoning on, almost as a default. The sizzle will have faded from the tax cuts, more people will be paying more for their mortgages and some part of the public sector will have fallen over. Oh, and there's a real risk that Rwanda will have had to be put into operation and shown to be a nasty farce.

    But if there isn't a winning election date before then, it's when the Grim Reaper finally reaps, unless the Conservatives really have a death wish.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,250

    New Labour, it should be remembered, did almost nothing to challenge eighteen years of restrictive Tory anti-trade-union legislation; argued that key public utilities such a rail, energy. and water should remain in private ownership; continued to leverage private capital in the financing and running of other public services, including the cherished National Health Service; developed a highly punitive welfare system; failed to replace the council housing stock sold under Thatcher; and further deregulated the financial sector ahead of the 2008 financial crisis.


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/how-new-labour-abandoned-workers/ar-AA1mrK4b?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=0cb461ae62494ea2b195789f3a0ac8fa&ei=9

    If, as you keep saying, Starmer will do nothing, why are you so het up about the prospect...?

    I'm not voting Labour (obviously) so I don't have any skin in that game. But when the current government are literally doing nothing, the only threat to "Starmer will do nothing" is that the wrong party are in power. So what?

    If you want something radical, other parties are available. Though under our electoral system a vote for Reclaim or Reform or National Health Action or whomever is an utter waste of time. Vote LibDem and support a proportional voting system...
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756

    Can Starmer really avoid saying anything for another 10 months ?

    He's avoided saying all that much for the past 61 years, so another 10 months shouldn't be too much of a problem for him.
    Quite
    Here's the thing, though.

    "Make Britain Boring Again" is probably pretty popular with the voters. At least part of the appeal of "Get Brexit Done" was the (untrue) idea that we would be able to stop thinking about it.

    See also this line from Starmer's speech today;

    “I promise this- a politics which treads a little lighter on all our lives. That’s the thing about populism or nationalism…It needs your full attention, needs you constantly focussing on this week’s common enemy. And that’s exhausting.”
    The voters are immensely fickle "boring" wont cut it for long. Well quickly move from helicopter jokes to Vickie Pollard ones.

    As for his claim of less politics I cant see a lawyer unburdening the nation by having fewer laws,
    Having fewer laws isn't the same as making things less political. Deregulation is intensely political, while new laws are only a "political" as you want them to be - the Rwanda Bill is tiny in length but controversial, whereas the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill is pretty lengthy and I'm sure terribly important, but not very exiciting to very many people.
    I look forward to his less political approach of trying to build 100,000s houses in Southern England.
    A load of NIMBY-tinged local rows in mainly Tory or Lib Dem areas is "political" in a sense, sure. Councils will fall, banners will be unfurled, a by-election may be lost if an MP dies or resigns in an inconvenient location. But these aren't the grand, national political battles about the direction of the country and survival of PMs etc. This is the Government making it harder for councils to refuse permission, then local games where parties pass the buck on who is to blame for developments X and Y being where they are and how they are.
    Except he hasnt passed any legislation, he hasnt said where or how houses are to be built, he hasnt redefined the planning laws and thats before the objectors start. And the housebulders themselves will need at least a couple of years to gear up.

    As one of the housebuilders put it he wont build a single extra house in the next Parliament.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,148
    MaxPB said:

    I notice that the person from Sky is suggesting the same election date as me. My logic behind it is that lots of liberals in this country do and will get caught up in US politics so will pay less attention to the UK campaign and generally be less enthused to go out and vote on the day. I don't think it will be a huge effect but elections are all about fine margins.

    That’s bonkers. Absolutely nuts. Are you suggesting we don’t have the attention span to follow two election campaigns? Come Thursday week the thrill of the events of the previous Tuesday will have kept our sensitive souls in bed?
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,226

    ...

    kinabalu said:

    Phil said:

    TimS said:

    Can Starmer really avoid saying anything for another 10 months ?

    The potentially helpful thing for Starmer with this meme, which increasingly flies in the face of the volume of actual policy announcements made by Labour, is that it makes it harder for the Tory press to terrify cowering middle-England about the terrible things Starmer has planned. Because they are trying to pretend he doesn't have any policies. While simultaneously pretending the Tories actually have meaningful policies rather than simply a whole long list of election tactics masquerading as policy.
    Neither Labour or the Tories have any meaningful policies.

    Starmer had the chance to do something re housing but theres nothing to back it up.

    In the end he'll wibble and do nothing.
    A “doing nothing” government that just concentrated on competently getting on with the small stuff would be a vast improvement on the current shower of fools and imbeciles.
    A "doing nothing" Government is not going to work given the challenges being posed at the u-bend stage of 150 years of national decline. Doing nothing (but very grown-uply) is effectively the Sunak sell. It's growingly acknowledged that there would have been considerably more merit in staying on the Truss growth rollercoaster, than sinking in to the Sunak slough of economic despond.
    I thought you got rises as well as falls on a rollercoaster?
    Tory MPs bailed before we got any rises.
    Well it was an emergency. The initial plummet was so severe people were losing their stomachs and about to pass out.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,148
    The Lawyer has taken its article about the Post Office Scandal out from behind its paywall

    https://www.thelawyer.com/how-justice-done-in-post-office-scandal/?trk=feed_main-feed-card_feed-article-content
  • Options
    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @DamianLow3
    It’s a good start to 2024 for Labour as their lead increases to 17 points in our latest @wethinkpolling poll.

    These are numbers no govt wants going into an election year. The 2 point increase for the Reform Party will also have the govt worried.


    Rishi isn't going to go early with polls like this.
    Ah, but that is so 2023.

    We should be having tomorrow the first polls of 2024 - WeThink and Techne I would imagine.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    edited January 4
    Chinese security forces arrest Chinese Catholic Bishop, showing it is not just Uighur Muslims but also Christians oppressed and restricted in their activities and worship by the officially atheist Chinese Communist government
    https://www.asianews.it/news-en/Bishop-Shao-of-Wenzhou-arrested-again-59866.html
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,482

    Can Starmer really avoid saying anything for another 10 months ?

    He's avoided saying all that much for the past 61 years, so another 10 months shouldn't be too much of a problem for him.
    Quite
    Here's the thing, though.

    "Make Britain Boring Again" is probably pretty popular with the voters. At least part of the appeal of "Get Brexit Done" was the (untrue) idea that we would be able to stop thinking about it.

    See also this line from Starmer's speech today;

    “I promise this- a politics which treads a little lighter on all our lives. That’s the thing about populism or nationalism…It needs your full attention, needs you constantly focussing on this week’s common enemy. And that’s exhausting.”
    The voters are immensely fickle "boring" wont cut it for long. Well quickly move from helicopter jokes to Vickie Pollard ones.

    As for his claim of less politics I cant see a lawyer unburdening the nation by having fewer laws,
    Having fewer laws isn't the same as making things less political. Deregulation is intensely political, while new laws are only a "political" as you want them to be - the Rwanda Bill is tiny in length but controversial, whereas the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill is pretty lengthy and I'm sure terribly important, but not very exiciting to very many people.
    I look forward to his less political approach of trying to build 100,000s houses in Southern England.
    A load of NIMBY-tinged local rows in mainly Tory or Lib Dem areas is "political" in a sense, sure. Councils will fall, banners will be unfurled, a by-election may be lost if an MP dies or resigns in an inconvenient location. But these aren't the grand, national political battles about the direction of the country and survival of PMs etc. This is the Government making it harder for councils to refuse permission, then local games where parties pass the buck on who is to blame for developments X and Y being where they are and how they are.
    Besides, the places where it makes sense to concentrate the building, fringes of towns and cities (yes, that includes the less attractive bits of Green Belt around Romford), the Oxford-Cambridge arc and so on, are pretty likely to have opposition MPs, even if Rishi does really badly.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756

    New Labour, it should be remembered, did almost nothing to challenge eighteen years of restrictive Tory anti-trade-union legislation; argued that key public utilities such a rail, energy. and water should remain in private ownership; continued to leverage private capital in the financing and running of other public services, including the cherished National Health Service; developed a highly punitive welfare system; failed to replace the council housing stock sold under Thatcher; and further deregulated the financial sector ahead of the 2008 financial crisis.


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/how-new-labour-abandoned-workers/ar-AA1mrK4b?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=0cb461ae62494ea2b195789f3a0ac8fa&ei=9

    If, as you keep saying, Starmer will do nothing, why are you so het up about the prospect...?

    I'm not voting Labour (obviously) so I don't have any skin in that game. But when the current government are literally doing nothing, the only threat to "Starmer will do nothing" is that the wrong party are in power. So what?

    If you want something radical, other parties are available. Though under our electoral system a vote for Reclaim or Reform or National Health Action or whomever is an utter waste of time. Vote LibDem and support a proportional voting system...
    Im not remotely het up about it. Theres nothing much he can do but keep putting out spin.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,226

    New Labour, it should be remembered, did almost nothing to challenge eighteen years of restrictive Tory anti-trade-union legislation; argued that key public utilities such a rail, energy. and water should remain in private ownership; continued to leverage private capital in the financing and running of other public services, including the cherished National Health Service; developed a highly punitive welfare system; failed to replace the council housing stock sold under Thatcher; and further deregulated the financial sector ahead of the 2008 financial crisis.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/how-new-labour-abandoned-workers/ar-AA1mrK4b?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=0cb461ae62494ea2b195789f3a0ac8fa&ei=9

    I thought you were on the right. You're sounding like Owen Jones here.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,250

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sam Coates of Sky speculating it will be the 14th November and after the US election

    It will be in September partly because of the US election. This timing works best to reduce the size of the Tory defeat.
    That means an announcement in July / August with campaigning through the summer holidays.

    It doesn’t work which is why November / December seems more plausible.

    You eventually end up back in May because the other options are insane
    Announcement shortly after Olympics end/towards the end of August, using the tactic of surprise and building on the momentum of summer, hols, Euros, Olympics, less attention on politics.
    Constraint there is the newish rule that election campaigns have to be 25 working days long. (In the old days, it was only 17). So even the first Thursday in October means calling the election in late August. Similarly, if you want to avoid campaign contamination by the Commonwealth summit and the US elections, you end up with a mid December election date.

    Which is what I'm reckoning on, almost as a default. The sizzle will have faded from the tax cuts, more people will be paying more for their mortgages and some part of the public sector will have fallen over. Oh, and there's a real risk that Rwanda will have had to be put into operation and shown to be a nasty farce.

    But if there isn't a winning election date before then, it's when the Grim Reaper finally reaps, unless the Conservatives really have a death wish.
    Yes, I don't see where the window is to go earlier. They can't fire the election gun whilst people are on holiday. And once MPs get back and the 5 Families get on with sharpening their knives we have both the King away and the terror across the pond as distractions.

    We know that PMs have political instincts. We also know that the civil service are very good at instructing them as to what has to happen when their instincts clash with the greater good. Brown wanted instructed that he was PM and must stay so until there was a clear or at the very least sizeable chance that Cameron could replace him.

    So whether Sunak wants late October or mid November or not, if the civil service tell him he can't, that's a problem you can't just ignore...
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    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,250

    New Labour, it should be remembered, did almost nothing to challenge eighteen years of restrictive Tory anti-trade-union legislation; argued that key public utilities such a rail, energy. and water should remain in private ownership; continued to leverage private capital in the financing and running of other public services, including the cherished National Health Service; developed a highly punitive welfare system; failed to replace the council housing stock sold under Thatcher; and further deregulated the financial sector ahead of the 2008 financial crisis.


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/how-new-labour-abandoned-workers/ar-AA1mrK4b?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=0cb461ae62494ea2b195789f3a0ac8fa&ei=9

    If, as you keep saying, Starmer will do nothing, why are you so het up about the prospect...?

    I'm not voting Labour (obviously) so I don't have any skin in that game. But when the current government are literally doing nothing, the only threat to "Starmer will do nothing" is that the wrong party are in power. So what?

    If you want something radical, other parties are available. Though under our electoral system a vote for Reclaim or Reform or National Health Action or whomever is an utter waste of time. Vote LibDem and support a proportional voting system...
    Im not remotely het up about it. Theres nothing much he can do but keep putting out spin.
    You're not het up. You just post endlessly against him and his threat of doing nothing...
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    DougSeal said:

    MaxPB said:

    I notice that the person from Sky is suggesting the same election date as me. My logic behind it is that lots of liberals in this country do and will get caught up in US politics so will pay less attention to the UK campaign and generally be less enthused to go out and vote on the day. I don't think it will be a huge effect but elections are all about fine margins.

    That’s bonkers. Absolutely nuts. Are you suggesting we don’t have the attention span to follow two election campaigns? Come Thursday week the thrill of the events of the previous Tuesday will have kept our sensitive souls in bed?
    It is bonkers.

    However, it's also the same day that I predicted. My reasoning was that Sunak can use the Tory conference in early October to unveil manifesto pledges, polish his legacy and go to the polls off his last best chance of some positive publicity. An early Oct dissolution points to mid-Nov for polling, given 35 days campaigning and a bit of wash-up - so 14 Nov.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,828
    • PB before the announcement: (strokes chin) "In my judgement, the election will be in May"
    • PB after the announcement: (strokes chin) "In my judgement, the election will be in Nov"
    :):):):)
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    I would suggest that the date of the general election will probably be the Thursday of the autumn half term holiday - in Norfolk (where I am) that would fall on Thursday 31st October - I'm assuming that the rest of the country is broadly on the same week. The weather will still be benign enough to campaign in and closing lots of schools on that day to become Polling Stations won't p*ss off too many parents as they'll already have child care in place given the kids weren't expected to be in school anyway. If half term is more commonly the week after though, the optics of having an election on or around Fireworks Night might be a little too tempting for cartoonists...
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    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,545

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sam Coates of Sky speculating it will be the 14th November and after the US election

    It will be in September partly because of the US election. This timing works best to reduce the size of the Tory defeat.
    That means an announcement in July / August with campaigning through the summer holidays.

    It doesn’t work which is why November / December seems more plausible.

    You eventually end up back in May because the other options are insane
    Announcement shortly after Olympics end/towards the end of August, using the tactic of surprise and building on the momentum of summer, hols, Euros, Olympics, less attention on politics.
    Constraint there is the newish rule that election campaigns have to be 25 working days long. (In the old days, it was only 17). So even the first Thursday in October means calling the election in late August. Similarly, if you want to avoid campaign contamination by the Commonwealth summit and the US elections, you end up with a mid December election date.

    Which is what I'm reckoning on, almost as a default. The sizzle will have faded from the tax cuts, more people will be paying more for their mortgages and some part of the public sector will have fallen over. Oh, and there's a real risk that Rwanda will have had to be put into operation and shown to be a nasty farce.

    But if there isn't a winning election date before then, it's when the Grim Reaper finally reaps, unless the Conservatives really have a death wish.
    Good points. This is all guesswork, but...I think Rishi will want to avoid the 'surprise test' or 'last biscuit' paradox which I feel he hits if he leaves it to December - no surprise because he has left it too late to have any agency over the matter. October and November are difficult because of the matters often mentioned, while, if he were lucky, September would be at the end of an upward summer/sport/hols/no politics in the news bounce. I think at the moment this period would be the best chance of a result where Labour gets less than 326 seats and forms a NOM government, with the Tories losing but not demolished. So September (at current betting prices) is the value and my prediction.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    edited January 4

    MaxPB said:

    I notice that the person from Sky is suggesting the same election date as me. My logic behind it is that lots of liberals in this country do and will get caught up in US politics so will pay less attention to the UK campaign and generally be less enthused to go out and vote on the day. I don't think it will be a huge effect but elections are all about fine margins.

    Why will people into US politics be less enthused to go out and vote? I'd've thought that it would rile people up to go vote!
    Yes.

    In fact, the whole argument that holding UK GE24 at approx same time as US GE24 would be problematic, is gobbledygook.

    Note that in Canada - USA's nearest & dearest neighbor - federal general elections have often been scheduled in proximity to POTUS elections south of the Great White North.

    For example: 1972, 1988, 2000, 2008
    Indeed, I can't understand why little old Britain holding its general election at the same time as the Americans is bad, but I may not follow the argument well enough.

    Although I appreciate that a clash would prevent UK politico journos rinsing expenses en masse with a month or two stateside following the circus of the US presidential (the premier league of elections).
    Ordinarily its not an issue. This time? If Trump is both the candidate and insurrection is threatened by *both sides*? More of an issue.

    A contested riotous US election threatens the stability of the west. Which is why (reportedly) the UK senior civil service have told Sunak he can't have November.
    Why? That would be for the US to sort out, as they managed to do in Jan 2021. The UK PM is hardly going to try and reverse the American revolution and the removal of British rule in the American colonies and King George III, send troops to DC and impose King Charles III as monarch of the US until they get their house in order is he!
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    MaxPB said:

    I notice that the person from Sky is suggesting the same election date as me. My logic behind it is that lots of liberals in this country do and will get caught up in US politics so will pay less attention to the UK campaign and generally be less enthused to go out and vote on the day. I don't think it will be a huge effect but elections are all about fine margins.

    Why will people into US politics be less enthused to go out and vote? I'd've thought that it would rile people up to go vote!
    Yes.

    In fact, the whole argument that holding UK GE24 at approx same time as US GE24 would be problematic, is gobbledygook.

    Note that in Canada - USA's nearest & dearest neighbor - federal general elections have often been scheduled in proximity to POTUS elections south of the Great White North.

    For example: 1972, 1988, 2000, 2008
    Indeed, I can't understand why little old Britain holding its general election at the same time as the Americans is bad, but I may not follow the argument well enough.

    Although I appreciate that a clash would prevent UK politico journos rinsing expenses en masse with a month or two stateside following the circus of the US presidential (the premier league of elections).
    Ordinarily its not an issue. This time? If Trump is both the candidate and insurrection is threatened by *both sides*? More of an issue.

    A contested riotous US election threatens the stability of the west. Which is why (reportedly) the UK senior civil service have told Sunak he can't have November.
    The senior civil service can get stuffed; it's not down to them.

    Anyway, a close US election will take weeks to sort out, by which time a UK one will be long done-and-dusted.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,983
    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sam Coates of Sky speculating it will be the 14th November and after the US election

    It will be in September partly because of the US election. This timing works best to reduce the size of the Tory defeat.
    That means an announcement in July / August with campaigning through the summer holidays.

    It doesn’t work which is why November / December seems more plausible.

    You eventually end up back in May because the other options are insane
    Announcement shortly after Olympics end/towards the end of August, using the tactic of surprise and building on the momentum of summer, hols, Euros, Olympics, less attention on politics.
    Constraint there is the newish rule that election campaigns have to be 25 working days long. (In the old days, it was only 17). So even the first Thursday in October means calling the election in late August. Similarly, if you want to avoid campaign contamination by the Commonwealth summit and the US elections, you end up with a mid December election date.

    Which is what I'm reckoning on, almost as a default. The sizzle will have faded from the tax cuts, more people will be paying more for their mortgages and some part of the public sector will have fallen over. Oh, and there's a real risk that Rwanda will have had to be put into operation and shown to be a nasty farce.

    But if there isn't a winning election date before then, it's when the Grim Reaper finally reaps, unless the Conservatives really have a death wish.
    Good points. This is all guesswork, but...I think Rishi will want to avoid the 'surprise test' or 'last biscuit' paradox which I feel he hits if he leaves it to December - no surprise because he has left it too late to have any agency over the matter. October and November are difficult because of the matters often mentioned, while, if he were lucky, September would be at the end of an upward summer/sport/hols/no politics in the news bounce. I think at the moment this period would be the best chance of a result where Labour gets less than 326 seats and forms a NOM government, with the Tories losing but not demolished. So September (at current betting prices) is the value and my prediction.
    September requires either an early July announcement or bringing MPs back in late July August to mop things up.

    There is a reason why there has never been a September election - glancing at Wikipedia the earliest autumn ones seems to have been on October 8th and that was when 17 days was required not 25.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756

    New Labour, it should be remembered, did almost nothing to challenge eighteen years of restrictive Tory anti-trade-union legislation; argued that key public utilities such a rail, energy. and water should remain in private ownership; continued to leverage private capital in the financing and running of other public services, including the cherished National Health Service; developed a highly punitive welfare system; failed to replace the council housing stock sold under Thatcher; and further deregulated the financial sector ahead of the 2008 financial crisis.


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/how-new-labour-abandoned-workers/ar-AA1mrK4b?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=0cb461ae62494ea2b195789f3a0ac8fa&ei=9

    If, as you keep saying, Starmer will do nothing, why are you so het up about the prospect...?

    I'm not voting Labour (obviously) so I don't have any skin in that game. But when the current government are literally doing nothing, the only threat to "Starmer will do nothing" is that the wrong party are in power. So what?

    If you want something radical, other parties are available. Though under our electoral system a vote for Reclaim or Reform or National Health Action or whomever is an utter waste of time. Vote LibDem and support a proportional voting system...
    Im not remotely het up about it. Theres nothing much he can do but keep putting out spin.
    You're not het up. You just post endlessly against him and his threat of doing nothing...
    Het up is when you go off on one of your rants. Im simply observing that he has done nothing to date and yet we are expected to accept that he will be better than Sunak. He will be different but not I suspect better. Blair - who I didn t support - led from the front and said what he intended to do, I could respect that. SKS is simply hoping to creep in via the back door . But in reality if he has prepared the ground so badly before getting in to office, he's already penned in by the system. So plus ca change.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756
    kinabalu said:

    New Labour, it should be remembered, did almost nothing to challenge eighteen years of restrictive Tory anti-trade-union legislation; argued that key public utilities such a rail, energy. and water should remain in private ownership; continued to leverage private capital in the financing and running of other public services, including the cherished National Health Service; developed a highly punitive welfare system; failed to replace the council housing stock sold under Thatcher; and further deregulated the financial sector ahead of the 2008 financial crisis.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/how-new-labour-abandoned-workers/ar-AA1mrK4b?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=0cb461ae62494ea2b195789f3a0ac8fa&ei=9

    I thought you were on the right. You're sounding like Owen Jones here.
    There are people on the left I can quite happily agree with. Im sure you can find some on the right you agree with too.
This discussion has been closed.