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From apotheosis to arrest – politicalbetting.com

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  • Some children look older than they are, and its not racist or sexist to mention it when it happens. Puberty is a funny thing in how it treats different children differently.

    I mentioned this a few months ago but over the last summer I attended a family wedding where my daughter (9) was one of the bridesmaids, she both is and looks like a child. There were 5 bridesmaids, 3 adults and 2 children but the other child was an 11 year old who looked much more like the adults and at all not like a child. She may have been 11, but she was already taller than the bride and could have easily passed for 18 or 19. For anyone who mentioned it, which happened a fair bit, I would never have considered that racist or sexist.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,233

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    All these jokes about Luke Littler looking old for his age… if he were a black 16 yr old and the same jokes were being made, I get the feeling a lot of those making the jokes would be saying “That’s a racist trope, you wouldn’t say it if he was white”

    Early contender for the most bizarre post of 2024?
    It’s bizarre that it’s true - if a black 16 yr old prodigy looked a lot older than his age, people wouldn’t dare say so, and those who did would be called out as racist for focussing on appearance rather than ability. I think the same logic works if it were a female prodigy
    Emma Raducanu? Sky the skateboarder? I don't think they were called out as faking their age.
    Emma Raducanu didn’t look like she was in her late thirties when she was sixteen
    So what's your point?

    Luke does, so people have commented on that about Luke, because its true.

    Find a black or female 16 year old who looks like he's in his late thirties or forties and see if others haven't made remarks to that effect.

    Its absurd, you don't have to turn everything into race.
    The point is that if a 16 yr old black sporting prodigy looked 38, people taking the piss out of that would be getting called racist by some people who are happy to take the piss out of Luke
    Littler for looking old
    Why would they? When has that ever happened?

    Luke looks like he's in his late thirties or older. I think he looks older than I do and I'm 42, if I was working in a shop selling alcohol I wouldn't ask for his ID under Challenge 25. Commenting on that, is not racist, there is no race issue here.
    (Dons fireproof clothes)
    There is a bit of an issue here, but it's not about race. Possibly about class, certainly about people's sterotype of what darts players look like. See the Smith and Jones Darts sketch...

    https://youtu.be/9SJnSmQCxkg
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,698

    rcs1000 said:

    MOD NOTICE

    I'm extremely bored of discussions of Luke's looks. Please move on.

    Agreed. Those posts aren't going to age well.
    It's an immature debate.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,374


    John Rentoul
    @JohnRentoul
    ·
    1h
    Farage as leader would increase Reform vote from 11% to 14%, leaving Lab lead unchanged at 21pts:
    @YouGov
    for Times

    Labour at 21% ????
    Tice's warning of a "Starmergeddon" gaining massive traction?

    Tax cuts, reduction in Government spending of a whopping 5% and standards improving through reduction in "waste" under a Reform Government. So promoting the same old Mom and apple pie bollocks as Con and Lab.
    Although... the 21% was the Labour lead
    I was being mischievous. Nonetheless I don't believe Tice's "new politics" offering is that much different from the old rubbish promoted by everyone else.

    Although Rishi has excelled himself with his most recent alternative truth proclamations.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,374
    viewcode said:
    Don't worry, just think of all that lovely data protection sovereignty.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,569
    Post Office part 3 just starting.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,193

    rcs1000 said:

    MOD NOTICE

    I'm extremely bored of discussions of Luke's looks. Please move on.

    Agreed. Those posts aren't going to age well.
    Damn it.

    That was really funny.
  • viewcode said:
    Excellent news. So our data will be handled in a way our sovereign Parliament decrees and in accordance with British laws.

    So it should be.

    And if you don't like those laws, you are free to vote for a new Government at the next election.

    Sovereignty works. Democracy works.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,342
    Andy_JS said:

    Post Office part 3 just starting.

    Watch for excellent cameo from Nadhim Zahawi, sticking it to the PO.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,862

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    All these jokes about Luke Littler looking old for his age… if he were a black 16 yr old and the same jokes were being made, I get the feeling a lot of those making the jokes would be saying “That’s a racist trope, you wouldn’t say it if he was white”

    Early contender for the most bizarre post of 2024?
    It’s bizarre that it’s true - if a black 16 yr old prodigy looked a lot older than his age, people wouldn’t dare say so, and those who did would be called out as racist for focussing on appearance rather than ability. I think the same logic works if it were a female prodigy
    Emma Raducanu? Sky the skateboarder? I don't think they were called out as faking their age.
    Emma Raducanu didn’t look like she was in her late thirties when she was sixteen
    So what's your point?

    Luke does, so people have commented on that about Luke, because its true.

    Find a black or female 16 year old who looks like he's in his late thirties or forties and see if others haven't made remarks to that effect.

    Its absurd, you don't have to turn everything into race.
    The point is that if a 16 yr old black sporting prodigy looked 38, people taking the piss out of that would be getting called racist by some people who are happy to take the piss out of Luke
    Littler for looking old
    Why would they? When has that ever happened?

    Luke looks like he's in his late thirties or older. I think he looks older than I do and I'm 42, if I was working in a shop selling alcohol I wouldn't ask for his ID under Challenge 25. Commenting on that, is not racist, there is no race issue here.
    (Dons fireproof clothes)
    There is a bit of an issue here, but it's not about race. Possibly about class, certainly about people's sterotype of what darts players look like. See the Smith and Jones Darts sketch...

    https://youtu.be/9SJnSmQCxkg
    I posted that the other day :lol:
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,862
    rcs1000 said:

    MOD NOTICE

    I'm extremely bored of discussions of Luke's looks. Please move on.

    Actually, Leia called Han Solo a "scruffy-looking nerf-herder"!
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,569

    Andy_JS said:

    Post Office part 3 just starting.

    Watch for excellent cameo from Nadhim Zahawi, sticking it to the PO.
    Will do.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,667
    edited January 3

    viewcode said:
    Excellent news. So our data will be handled in a way our sovereign Parliament decrees and in accordance with British laws.

    So it should be.

    And if you don't like those laws, you are free to vote for a new Government at the next election.

    Sovereignty works. Democracy works.
    Er...

    "Google is planning to move its British users' accounts out of the control of European Union privacy regulators, placing them under U.S. jurisdiction instead"
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,569

    Some children look older than they are, and its not racist or sexist to mention it when it happens. Puberty is a funny thing in how it treats different children differently.

    I mentioned this a few months ago but over the last summer I attended a family wedding where my daughter (9) was one of the bridesmaids, she both is and looks like a child. There were 5 bridesmaids, 3 adults and 2 children but the other child was an 11 year old who looked much more like the adults and at all not like a child. She may have been 11, but she was already taller than the bride and could have easily passed for 18 or 19. For anyone who mentioned it, which happened a fair bit, I would never have considered that racist or sexist.

    This is a 15 year old Steve Winwood in 1963/64.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwqsmNR_Q1M
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    Christ! Episode 3 of the Bates drama is unbearable. I knew the story of Martin Griffiths but to see it acted out ......

  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,342
    edited January 3
    Foxy said:

    Ed Davey. Not winning here for sub postmasters.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67873197

    “Meanwhile, campaigning in Surrey where the Liberal Democrats are hoping to win a number of Conservative-held seats at the next general election, party leader Sir Ed Davey said he regretted not asking "tougher questions" of Post Office managers when he was postal affairs minister in the coalition government from 2010 to 2012.
    Asked why he refused to meet Alan Bates, the postmaster who led the campaign to expose the Post Office Horizon IT scandal, he said: "It is a national scandal... dreadful and it's been going on for so long. The Conservative government really needs to sort out the compensation.
    "I regret not having asked the Post Office managers even tougher questions than I did."
    Asked why he accepted the Post Office's assertions at face value, Sir Ed replied: "I asked really tough questions of Post Office managers and indeed the officials. I wish I'd gone further."
    He congratulated Mr Bates for his campaign, he added.”

    Ed Davey regrets his part in the Post Office scandal. That's all right then. He regrets it. He's not losing sleep over it, or money, or his job. Do the decent thing, Ed, or STFU.
    He was responsible for 19 months of the two decades. Who are the other ministers responsible, before or after?
    It starts with Blair/Harman and runs right the way through to Johnson, who at least had the decency to authorise a public Inquiry.

    One of the reasons why the story has not gathered more traction is that none of the main political Parties stand to benefit from it. They are all implicated. The LDs had a surprisingly large involvement. In addition to Davy's role, Vince Cable appointed Paula Vennells, and Jo Swinson was effectively Minister for the Post Office for a significant period.

    I'm not saying the LDs were any worse than the others, but they are certainly not in the clear.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,983
    I bet that if Nigel Farage was a sixteen year old Nigerian cattle farmer there would be a ton of comments about him being unfit to lead the Labour Party and no one would bat an eyelid.

    Bunch of hypocrites.
  • viewcode said:
    Excellent news. So our data will be handled in a way our sovereign Parliament decrees and in accordance with British laws.

    So it should be.

    And if you don't like those laws, you are free to vote for a new Government at the next election.

    Sovereignty works. Democracy works.
    Er...

    "Google is planning to move its British users' accounts out of the control of European Union privacy regulators, placing them under U.S. jurisdiction instead"
    Er...

    An employee familiar with the planned move said that British privacy rules, which at least for now track GDPR, would continue to apply to that government's requests for data from Google's U.S. headquarters.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,667
    TOPPING said:

    I bet that if Nigel Farage was a sixteen year old Nigerian cattle farmer there would be a ton of comments about him being unfit to lead the Labour Party and no one would bat an eyelid.

    Bunch of hypocrites.

    ChatGPT seems to have a bug.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,342
    Cyclefree said:

    Christ! Episode 3 of the Bates drama is unbearable. I knew the story of Martin Griffiths but to see it acted out ......

    It's beginning to feel less like a soap, and more like a documentary, which it effectively is.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,915
    rcs1000 said:

    MOD NOTICE

    I'm extremely bored of discussions of Luke's looks. Please move on.

    It's not his looks we are discussing but whether the match will be finished before his bedtime.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Andy_JS said:

    Post Office part 3 just starting.

    The whole thing is on ITVX, along with the documentary
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,915

    viewcode said:
    Excellent news. So our data will be handled in a way our sovereign Parliament decrees and in accordance with British laws.

    So it should be.

    And if you don't like those laws, you are free to vote for a new Government at the next election.

    Sovereignty works. Democracy works.
    Er...

    "Google is planning to move its British users' accounts out of the control of European Union privacy regulators, placing them under U.S. jurisdiction instead"
    Good news for haters of GDPR pop-ups and bad news for those who care about privacy. Ironically, the former group probably only see so many pop-ups because they delete cookies on closing browsers.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,936
    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:


    John Rentoul
    @JohnRentoul
    ·
    1h
    Farage as leader would increase Reform vote from 11% to 14%, leaving Lab lead unchanged at 21pts:
    @YouGov
    for Times

    So Reform would go from winning no seats under Tice to winning no seats under Farage.
    Reform would be a clear 3rd on voteshare though, as UKIP were in 2015, on 14% and well ahead of the LDs on 10% with the Greens on 8%. UKIP also did get 1 MP for their 12% of the 2015 vote.

    If Farage returned as Reform leader the Sunak Tories would fall to only 21%, just 7% ahead of Reform (as opposed to 11% ahead of the current Tice led Reform) who are closer to the Tories than the Tories are to Labour on 42%
    https://x.com/JohnRentoul/status/1742602515324035262?s=20
    The 2019 Euros give an indication of what a Farage led party can do to the Tories when they have a leader their voters don’t like
    Yes and Farage is charismatic too, more so than May was and Sunak is.

    Combined Yougov has the Tories and a Farage ledx Reform on 35%, yet divided the Tories are on just 21%. In that scenario PR would actually be better for the Tories, otherwise as in Canada in the post 1993 split between the Canadian Tories and Reform FPTP just splits the rightwing vote (which it did until the Tories and Canadian Alliance, successor to Reform, merged in 2003 to form today's Conservative Party of Canada). In the US too if Trump doesn't get the GOP nomination and goes 3rd party he could also hand the election to Biden on a plate via the FPTP EC.

    While in Italy, which has PR, a united coalition of centre right Forza Italia and populist right Lega Nord and Brothers of Italy is in government. In NZ too a rightwing government of centre right Nationals and populist NZ First and libertarian ACT are in government with PR and in Spain the PP and Vox are just a whisker away from government, also with PR. In Sweden as well the Sweden Democrats and Moderates have formed a rightwing government with PR. Of course Netanyahu's broad rightwing government of multiple parties in Israel has also been elected via PR

    If Labour fail to gain an absolute majority, and have to accept PR as a condition of coalition, it could paradoxically save the Conservatives from themselves.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,698

    Foxy said:

    Ed Davey. Not winning here for sub postmasters.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67873197

    “Meanwhile, campaigning in Surrey where the Liberal Democrats are hoping to win a number of Conservative-held seats at the next general election, party leader Sir Ed Davey said he regretted not asking "tougher questions" of Post Office managers when he was postal affairs minister in the coalition government from 2010 to 2012.
    Asked why he refused to meet Alan Bates, the postmaster who led the campaign to expose the Post Office Horizon IT scandal, he said: "It is a national scandal... dreadful and it's been going on for so long. The Conservative government really needs to sort out the compensation.
    "I regret not having asked the Post Office managers even tougher questions than I did."
    Asked why he accepted the Post Office's assertions at face value, Sir Ed replied: "I asked really tough questions of Post Office managers and indeed the officials. I wish I'd gone further."
    He congratulated Mr Bates for his campaign, he added.”

    Ed Davey regrets his part in the Post Office scandal. That's all right then. He regrets it. He's not losing sleep over it, or money, or his job. Do the decent thing, Ed, or STFU.
    He was responsible for 19 months of the two decades. Who are the other ministers responsible, before or after?
    It starts with Blair/Harman and runs right the way through to Johnson, who at least had the decency to authorise a public Inquiry.

    One of the reasons why the story has not gathered more traction is that none of the main political Parties stand to benefit from it. They are all implicated. The LDs had a surprisingly large involvement. In addition to Davy's role, Vince Cable appointed Paula Vennells, and Jo Swinson was effectively Minister for the Post Office for a significant period.

    I'm not saying the LDs were any worse than the others, but they are certainly not in the clear.
    Clearly not. But there haven't been any LibDems in government for more than eight years. Which ministers have been responsible since?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,667

    viewcode said:
    Excellent news. So our data will be handled in a way our sovereign Parliament decrees and in accordance with British laws.

    So it should be.

    And if you don't like those laws, you are free to vote for a new Government at the next election.

    Sovereignty works. Democracy works.
    Er...

    "Google is planning to move its British users' accounts out of the control of European Union privacy regulators, placing them under U.S. jurisdiction instead"
    Er...

    An employee familiar with the planned move said that British privacy rules, which at least for now track GDPR, would continue to apply to that government's requests for data from Google's U.S. headquarters.
    Right, so it's under US jurisdiction (over which we have no influence), but if for the time being Google will kindly continue to apply British privacy rules (which track GDPR, over which we have no influence anymore). Got it.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,915
    IanB2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Post Office part 3 just starting.

    The whole thing is on ITVX, along with the documentary
    It is a painful watch because we empathise with the SPMs but know there is no happy ending.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,569
    IanB2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Post Office part 3 just starting.

    The whole thing is on ITVX, along with the documentary
    I'm still using an old-fashioned TV with FreeView only available. Can you watch ITVX on a laptop? Probably.
  • viewcode said:
    Excellent news. So our data will be handled in a way our sovereign Parliament decrees and in accordance with British laws.

    So it should be.

    And if you don't like those laws, you are free to vote for a new Government at the next election.

    Sovereignty works. Democracy works.
    Er...

    "Google is planning to move its British users' accounts out of the control of European Union privacy regulators, placing them under U.S. jurisdiction instead"
    Good news for haters of GDPR pop-ups and bad news for those who care about privacy. Ironically, the former group probably only see so many pop-ups because they delete cookies on closing browsers.
    Which is precisely why its a bad law.

    It was always possible to control cookies, no law was necessary to do so, but doing so now is made harder not easier because you get nagged every time you visit a site if you do.

    Whereas if you just click accept all to make it go away, then you don't get nagged anymore, but do have cookies tracking your every move.

    Terrible, terrible piece of legislation.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,059
    In the darts, Luke took an early lead only for Luke to come roaring back in front, but then Luke has fighted back so it's now level between Luke and Luke.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310

    Foxy said:

    Ed Davey. Not winning here for sub postmasters.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67873197

    “Meanwhile, campaigning in Surrey where the Liberal Democrats are hoping to win a number of Conservative-held seats at the next general election, party leader Sir Ed Davey said he regretted not asking "tougher questions" of Post Office managers when he was postal affairs minister in the coalition government from 2010 to 2012.
    Asked why he refused to meet Alan Bates, the postmaster who led the campaign to expose the Post Office Horizon IT scandal, he said: "It is a national scandal... dreadful and it's been going on for so long. The Conservative government really needs to sort out the compensation.
    "I regret not having asked the Post Office managers even tougher questions than I did."
    Asked why he accepted the Post Office's assertions at face value, Sir Ed replied: "I asked really tough questions of Post Office managers and indeed the officials. I wish I'd gone further."
    He congratulated Mr Bates for his campaign, he added.”

    Ed Davey regrets his part in the Post Office scandal. That's all right then. He regrets it. He's not losing sleep over it, or money, or his job. Do the decent thing, Ed, or STFU.
    He was responsible for 19 months of the two decades. Who are the other ministers responsible, before or after?
    It starts with Blair/Harman and runs right the way through to Johnson, who at least had the decency to authorise a public Inquiry.

    One of the reasons why the story has not gathered more traction is that none of the main political Parties stand to benefit from it. They are all implicated. The LDs had a surprisingly large involvement. In addition to Davy's role, Vince Cable appointed Paula Vennells, and Jo Swinson was effectively Minister for the Post Office for a significant period.

    I'm not saying the LDs were any worse than the others, but they are certainly not in the clear.
    If you want to know who the other Ministers were I listed them out here -
    https://www.cyclefree.co.uk/what-are-ministers-for/

    Every single political party played a part in this.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,936

    rcs1000 said:

    MOD NOTICE

    I'm extremely bored of discussions of Luke's looks. Please move on.

    It's not his looks we are discussing but whether the match will be finished before his bedtime.
    Most 16 year olds probably go to be later than most of us.
  • CatMan said:

    In the darts, Luke took an early lead only for Luke to come roaring back in front, but then Luke has fighted back so it's now level between Luke and Luke.

    This Luke confusion must be causing havoc with the bookies.

    So many Lukes must be really confusing if you're a layer.

    I'll get my coat.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,752

    malcolmg said:

    Does anyone think (as opposed to wish) that charges will eventually arise from this performance, and, if so, when? My guess is yes, and shortly after the GE date is announced.

    Have to be charges Red, teh £600K alone is gone, not to mention all the other stuff found, will SNP be bankrupt before then. They have now taken all the branches money and will burn through that quickly, only income they have now is the short money and no chance they will find £1.5M for the election.
    Good few court cases coming up as well, judge will not be happy they have shredded all the evidence, she is toast one way or another, almost as many cases as Trump.
    It will be interesting to see how they fight an election with no money, no donors and having pissed off most of their activists. Hope their SPADs are good at canvassing!
    Problem SNP have is that they won't be able to focus their resources in certain key target seats in the way that Labour, Con and LibDem will. The downside to their previous success. I guess, in practice, they will have to respond to the demands of sitting MPs, which will be good news for the incumbents in the seats the Scottish Tories and LibDems are defending.
    I suspect they will concentrate their resources on supporting their most loyal MPs. So, support for people like Alison Thewliss, but not for people like Joanna Cherry.
    Quite likely. Joanna Cherry will not be much-loved by the Greens, due to her outspokeness on gender issues, and I imagine they will run a candidate against her which could be damaging somewhere like middle-class Edinburgh.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,420

    CatMan said:

    In the darts, Luke took an early lead only for Luke to come roaring back in front, but then Luke has fighted back so it's now level between Luke and Luke.

    This Luke confusion must be causing havoc with the bookies.

    So many Lukes must be really confusing if you're a layer.

    I'll get my coat.
    Rey's your Han if you found this funny.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,508

    rcs1000 said:

    MOD NOTICE

    I'm extremely bored of discussions of Luke's looks. Please move on.

    Actually, Leia called Han Solo a "scruffy-looking nerf-herder"!
    Whilst Roberts bluffly looking like he’s herd e-nerf.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,728
    isam said:

    MJW said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    All these jokes about Luke Littler looking old for his age… if he were a black 16 yr old and the same jokes were being made, I get the feeling a lot of those making the jokes would be saying “That’s a racist trope, you wouldn’t say it if he was white”

    Early contender for the most bizarre post of 2024?
    It’s bizarre that it’s true - if a black 16 yr old prodigy looked a lot older than his age, people wouldn’t dare say so, and those who did would be called out as racist for focussing on appearance rather than ability. I think the same logic works if it were a female prodigy
    They would. There have been endless insinuations about certain African footballers' birth certificates possibly not being entirely accurate over the years. Often with some level of seriousness.

    And people's reactions would entirely depend on whether, as with Littler, it was for the most part good-natured jokey disbelief and awe. Or whether it was accompanied by some much nastier stuff.

    When Jude Bellingham broke through at Birmingham there were lots of comments about scarcely being able to believe his age as there was this 6ft lad bossing fully grown men aged 16 - no one shouted racism because it was clear there was nothing sinister to it.
    I think you are missing the point - Littler’s age isn’t being questioned just because he’s bossing fully grown men, it’s because he looks about 40.

    Bellingham doesn’t look 20 years older than he is, he’s just a great footballer

    Your first paragraph is why lots of people wouldn’t make the jokes about a hypothetical black Luke Littler, and would cry ‘racist’ if someone did
    You missed my point. Bellingham did look older than 16 when I saw him play at that age. Yes, he looked like an athlete and you could tell from his face he wasn't a veteran but he was 6ft, physical and someone who'd have looked hugely out of place playing against other 16 year olds. Unlike say Saka/Sterling, who also came through very young but looked their age or even younger. And it was commented on.

    And my point was that broadly the comments about intent mattering. If people are saying it in a mean-spirited way - which could be someone being racist by intimating other things, or people just being nasty. Broadly, though no doubt there's some unpleasantness out there, the comments about Littler's age have been in good spirit.

    In both cases, you can broadly tell the intent of someone doing it - whether someone is black or white. Whether a comment or a joke is just that or being a bit stunned someone looks (physically and in how they carry themselves) mature beyond their years. Or whether it's said with nastier intentions meant to belittle - which can be racist.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410
    Andy_JS said:

    IanB2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Post Office part 3 just starting.

    The whole thing is on ITVX, along with the documentary
    I'm still using an old-fashioned TV with FreeView only available. Can you watch ITVX on a laptop? Probably.
    You can download the app on your phone, too.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    MJW said:

    isam said:

    MJW said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    All these jokes about Luke Littler looking old for his age… if he were a black 16 yr old and the same jokes were being made, I get the feeling a lot of those making the jokes would be saying “That’s a racist trope, you wouldn’t say it if he was white”

    Early contender for the most bizarre post of 2024?
    It’s bizarre that it’s true - if a black 16 yr old prodigy looked a lot older than his age, people wouldn’t dare say so, and those who did would be called out as racist for focussing on appearance rather than ability. I think the same logic works if it were a female prodigy
    They would. There have been endless insinuations about certain African footballers' birth certificates possibly not being entirely accurate over the years. Often with some level of seriousness.

    And people's reactions would entirely depend on whether, as with Littler, it was for the most part good-natured jokey disbelief and awe. Or whether it was accompanied by some much nastier stuff.

    When Jude Bellingham broke through at Birmingham there were lots of comments about scarcely being able to believe his age as there was this 6ft lad bossing fully grown men aged 16 - no one shouted racism because it was clear there was nothing sinister to it.
    I think you are missing the point - Littler’s age isn’t being questioned just because he’s bossing fully grown men, it’s because he looks about 40.

    Bellingham doesn’t look 20 years older than he is, he’s just a great footballer

    Your first paragraph is why lots of people wouldn’t make the jokes about a hypothetical black Luke Littler, and would cry ‘racist’ if someone did
    You missed my point. Bellingham did look older than 16 when I saw him play at that age. Yes, he looked like an athlete and you could tell from his face he wasn't a veteran but he was 6ft, physical and someone who'd have looked hugely out of place playing against other 16 year olds. Unlike say Saka/Sterling, who also came through very young but looked their age or even younger. And it was commented on.

    And my point was that broadly the comments about intent mattering. If people are saying it in a mean-spirited way - which could be someone being racist by intimating other things, or people just being nasty. Broadly, though no doubt there's some unpleasantness out there, the comments about Littler's age have been in good spirit.

    In both cases, you can broadly tell the intent of someone doing it - whether someone is black or white. Whether a comment or a joke is just that or being a bit stunned someone looks (physically and in how they carry themselves) mature beyond their years. Or whether it's said with nastier intentions meant to belittle - which can be racist.
    No comment
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,508
    ydoethur said:

    CatMan said:

    In the darts, Luke took an early lead only for Luke to come roaring back in front, but then Luke has fighted back so it's now level between Luke and Luke.

    This Luke confusion must be causing havoc with the bookies.

    So many Lukes must be really confusing if you're a layer.

    I'll get my coat.
    Rey's your Han if you found this funny.
    We don’t want any Rancor this evening.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 3
    Would be funny if Littler turned out to be a really, stroppy, bad loser who went into a massive sulk, saying it’s not fair
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    viewcode said:
    Excellent news. So our data will be handled in a way our sovereign Parliament decrees and in accordance with British laws.

    So it should be.

    And if you don't like those laws, you are free to vote for a new Government at the next election.

    Sovereignty works. Democracy works.
    Er...

    "Google is planning to move its British users' accounts out of the control of European Union privacy regulators, placing them under U.S. jurisdiction instead"
    Good news for haters of GDPR pop-ups and bad news for those who care about privacy. Ironically, the former group probably only see so many pop-ups because they delete cookies on closing browsers.
    Which is precisely why its a bad law.

    It was always possible to control cookies, no law was necessary to do so, but doing so now is made harder not easier because you get nagged every time you visit a site if you do.

    Whereas if you just click accept all to make it go away, then you don't get nagged anymore, but do have cookies tracking your every move.

    Terrible, terrible piece of legislation.
    Believe you owe a apology to PB's own Cookie, for your aspersions against him!

    AND why is it, that proper (and improper) Brits do NOT refer to computer "cookies" as "biscuits"?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,420

    ydoethur said:

    CatMan said:

    In the darts, Luke took an early lead only for Luke to come roaring back in front, but then Luke has fighted back so it's now level between Luke and Luke.

    This Luke confusion must be causing havoc with the bookies.

    So many Lukes must be really confusing if you're a layer.

    I'll get my coat.
    Rey's your Han if you found this funny.
    We don’t want any Rancor this evening.
    Why, does it Ben-d you out?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    viewcode said:

    isam said:

    Wales is, in a way, Labour’s biggest achilles heel.
    Place has been a shit-show since forever, and there appears no desire amongst the Welsh ruling class (nor the Welsh at large, tbh) to address it.

    https://x.com/timmyvoe240886/status/1741144333036757303?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    The tweeter is possibly not the most objective assessor of Labour, tbh...
    I live in Wales and it is not as bad as the Tory client media would have us believe. Betsi Cadwallader and the botched rollout and certainly botched media rollout of the otherwise reasonable idea of the 20mph urban speed limit notwithstanding.

    From my side of Offa's Dyke, the Welsh Government are a 4/10 exam pass. On the bright side the current Welsh government may be very vin ordinaire, but just imagine the sour grapes of a ruddy faced First Minister A.R.T. Davies. The Welsh answer to Liz Truss.
    It’s actually worse.

    There’s barely any Welsh economy to speak of, save social funds directly or indirectly (via the benefits system) redistributed from the rest of the country.

    PISA scores are an abomination. Wales sends barely anyone to Oxbridge nowadays. The health system, as we know, is in a state of crisis.

    Welsh democracy is tightly gripped by an incestuous Labour mafia, and what dissent there exists is hopelessly quixotic or irredeemably moronic.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,200
    isam said:

    Would be funny if Littler turned out to be a really, stroppy, bad loser who went into a massive sulk, saying it’s not fair

    Doubtful, Humphries is hitting everything at the moment.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,336

    rcs1000 said:

    MOD NOTICE

    I'm extremely bored of discussions of Luke's looks. Please move on.

    Actually, Leia called Han Solo a "scruffy-looking nerf-herder"!
    Wasn’t Luke a bit short to be a stormtrooper?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,336

    ydoethur said:

    CatMan said:

    In the darts, Luke took an early lead only for Luke to come roaring back in front, but then Luke has fighted back so it's now level between Luke and Luke.

    This Luke confusion must be causing havoc with the bookies.

    So many Lukes must be really confusing if you're a layer.

    I'll get my coat.
    Rey's your Han if you found this funny.
    We don’t want any Rancor this evening.
    This whole discussion is the (Sarlac) Pits.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,667

    viewcode said:
    Excellent news. So our data will be handled in a way our sovereign Parliament decrees and in accordance with British laws.

    So it should be.

    And if you don't like those laws, you are free to vote for a new Government at the next election.

    Sovereignty works. Democracy works.
    Er...

    "Google is planning to move its British users' accounts out of the control of European Union privacy regulators, placing them under U.S. jurisdiction instead"
    Good news for haters of GDPR pop-ups and bad news for those who care about privacy. Ironically, the former group probably only see so many pop-ups because they delete cookies on closing browsers.
    Which is precisely why its a bad law.

    It was always possible to control cookies, no law was necessary to do so, but doing so now is made harder not easier because you get nagged every time you visit a site if you do.

    Whereas if you just click accept all to make it go away, then you don't get nagged anymore, but do have cookies tracking your every move.

    Terrible, terrible piece of legislation.
    Believe you owe a apology to PB's own Cookie, for your aspersions against him!

    AND why is it, that proper (and improper) Brits do NOT refer to computer "cookies" as "biscuits"?
    Word appropriation is de rigueur for Brits.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,193
    TOPPING said:

    I bet that if Nigel Farage was a sixteen year old Nigerian cattle farmer there would be a ton of comments about him being unfit to lead the Labour Party and no one would bat an eyelid.

    Bunch of hypocrites.

    Do you have any evidence that Nigel Farage is not a 16 year old Nigerian cattle farmer?
  • MJW said:

    isam said:

    MJW said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    All these jokes about Luke Littler looking old for his age… if he were a black 16 yr old and the same jokes were being made, I get the feeling a lot of those making the jokes would be saying “That’s a racist trope, you wouldn’t say it if he was white”

    Early contender for the most bizarre post of 2024?
    It’s bizarre that it’s true - if a black 16 yr old prodigy looked a lot older than his age, people wouldn’t dare say so, and those who did would be called out as racist for focussing on appearance rather than ability. I think the same logic works if it were a female prodigy
    They would. There have been endless insinuations about certain African footballers' birth certificates possibly not being entirely accurate over the years. Often with some level of seriousness.

    And people's reactions would entirely depend on whether, as with Littler, it was for the most part good-natured jokey disbelief and awe. Or whether it was accompanied by some much nastier stuff.

    When Jude Bellingham broke through at Birmingham there were lots of comments about scarcely being able to believe his age as there was this 6ft lad bossing fully grown men aged 16 - no one shouted racism because it was clear there was nothing sinister to it.
    I think you are missing the point - Littler’s age isn’t being questioned just because he’s bossing fully grown men, it’s because he looks about 40.

    Bellingham doesn’t look 20 years older than he is, he’s just a great footballer

    Your first paragraph is why lots of people wouldn’t make the jokes about a hypothetical black Luke Littler, and would cry ‘racist’ if someone did
    You missed my point. Bellingham did look older than 16 when I saw him play at that age. Yes, he looked like an athlete and you could tell from his face he wasn't a veteran but he was 6ft, physical and someone who'd have looked hugely out of place playing against other 16 year olds. Unlike say Saka/Sterling, who also came through very young but looked their age or even younger. And it was commented on.

    And my point was that broadly the comments about intent mattering. If people are saying it in a mean-spirited way - which could be someone being racist by intimating other things, or people just being nasty. Broadly, though no doubt there's some unpleasantness out there, the comments about Littler's age have been in good spirit.

    In both cases, you can broadly tell the intent of someone doing it - whether someone is black or white. Whether a comment or a joke is just that or being a bit stunned someone looks (physically and in how they carry themselves) mature beyond their years. Or whether it's said with nastier intentions meant to belittle - which can be racist.
    Not to carry this on too long - but plenty of folk I know made light of how hard Mako Vunipola's paper round must have been when he first came on the scene - This is him in his early twenties: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/21714408

    I really don't think anyone hearing those comments or making them at the time thought there was a racist or racial point at stake. He just looks old and always has done. Some of this may well be done to where he has to put his head in the game. The same comments are made about Dan Cole.

    Also after a bit of google Mako's brother at (apparently) nine-ish is hilarious in this photo: https://www.ruck.co.uk/5-rugby-players-who-dont-look-their-age/2/

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,193

    Foxy said:

    Ed Davey. Not winning here for sub postmasters.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67873197

    “Meanwhile, campaigning in Surrey where the Liberal Democrats are hoping to win a number of Conservative-held seats at the next general election, party leader Sir Ed Davey said he regretted not asking "tougher questions" of Post Office managers when he was postal affairs minister in the coalition government from 2010 to 2012.
    Asked why he refused to meet Alan Bates, the postmaster who led the campaign to expose the Post Office Horizon IT scandal, he said: "It is a national scandal... dreadful and it's been going on for so long. The Conservative government really needs to sort out the compensation.
    "I regret not having asked the Post Office managers even tougher questions than I did."
    Asked why he accepted the Post Office's assertions at face value, Sir Ed replied: "I asked really tough questions of Post Office managers and indeed the officials. I wish I'd gone further."
    He congratulated Mr Bates for his campaign, he added.”

    Ed Davey regrets his part in the Post Office scandal. That's all right then. He regrets it. He's not losing sleep over it, or money, or his job. Do the decent thing, Ed, or STFU.
    He was responsible for 19 months of the two decades. Who are the other ministers responsible, before or after?
    It starts with Blair/Harman and runs right the way through to Johnson, who at least had the decency to authorise a public Inquiry.

    One of the reasons why the story has not gathered more traction is that none of the main political Parties stand to benefit from it. They are all implicated. The LDs had a surprisingly large involvement. In addition to Davy's role, Vince Cable appointed Paula Vennells, and Jo Swinson was effectively Minister for the Post Office for a significant period.

    I'm not saying the LDs were any worse than the others, but they are certainly not in the clear.
    I don't know how people can say the LibDems aren't ready for government. See: they can fuck things up just as badly as Labour or Conservative.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410
    Told you betting against the kid was value.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    Well that was mega
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,862

    rcs1000 said:

    MOD NOTICE

    I'm extremely bored of discussions of Luke's looks. Please move on.

    Actually, Leia called Han Solo a "scruffy-looking nerf-herder"!
    Wasn’t Luke a bit short to be a stormtrooper?
    No, he's here to rescue you!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,698
    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    Ed Davey. Not winning here for sub postmasters.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67873197

    “Meanwhile, campaigning in Surrey where the Liberal Democrats are hoping to win a number of Conservative-held seats at the next general election, party leader Sir Ed Davey said he regretted not asking "tougher questions" of Post Office managers when he was postal affairs minister in the coalition government from 2010 to 2012.
    Asked why he refused to meet Alan Bates, the postmaster who led the campaign to expose the Post Office Horizon IT scandal, he said: "It is a national scandal... dreadful and it's been going on for so long. The Conservative government really needs to sort out the compensation.
    "I regret not having asked the Post Office managers even tougher questions than I did."
    Asked why he accepted the Post Office's assertions at face value, Sir Ed replied: "I asked really tough questions of Post Office managers and indeed the officials. I wish I'd gone further."
    He congratulated Mr Bates for his campaign, he added.”

    Ed Davey regrets his part in the Post Office scandal. That's all right then. He regrets it. He's not losing sleep over it, or money, or his job. Do the decent thing, Ed, or STFU.
    He was responsible for 19 months of the two decades. Who are the other ministers responsible, before or after?
    It starts with Blair/Harman and runs right the way through to Johnson, who at least had the decency to authorise a public Inquiry.

    One of the reasons why the story has not gathered more traction is that none of the main political Parties stand to benefit from it. They are all implicated. The LDs had a surprisingly large involvement. In addition to Davy's role, Vince Cable appointed Paula Vennells, and Jo Swinson was effectively Minister for the Post Office for a significant period.

    I'm not saying the LDs were any worse than the others, but they are certainly not in the clear.
    I don't know how people can say the LibDems aren't ready for government. See: they can fuck things up just as badly as Labour or Conservative.
    I suppose one possible conclusion is that elected legislators are not very good at supervising Quangos and government owned corporations. A wide variety of politicians from a wide variety of parties and factions within parties, and no one got it.

    It doesn't absolve individuals but does rather suggest that there is a systemic problem of how we supervise, or more accurately fail to supervise.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,667
    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    Ed Davey. Not winning here for sub postmasters.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67873197

    “Meanwhile, campaigning in Surrey where the Liberal Democrats are hoping to win a number of Conservative-held seats at the next general election, party leader Sir Ed Davey said he regretted not asking "tougher questions" of Post Office managers when he was postal affairs minister in the coalition government from 2010 to 2012.
    Asked why he refused to meet Alan Bates, the postmaster who led the campaign to expose the Post Office Horizon IT scandal, he said: "It is a national scandal... dreadful and it's been going on for so long. The Conservative government really needs to sort out the compensation.
    "I regret not having asked the Post Office managers even tougher questions than I did."
    Asked why he accepted the Post Office's assertions at face value, Sir Ed replied: "I asked really tough questions of Post Office managers and indeed the officials. I wish I'd gone further."
    He congratulated Mr Bates for his campaign, he added.”

    Ed Davey regrets his part in the Post Office scandal. That's all right then. He regrets it. He's not losing sleep over it, or money, or his job. Do the decent thing, Ed, or STFU.
    He was responsible for 19 months of the two decades. Who are the other ministers responsible, before or after?
    It starts with Blair/Harman and runs right the way through to Johnson, who at least had the decency to authorise a public Inquiry.

    One of the reasons why the story has not gathered more traction is that none of the main political Parties stand to benefit from it. They are all implicated. The LDs had a surprisingly large involvement. In addition to Davy's role, Vince Cable appointed Paula Vennells, and Jo Swinson was effectively Minister for the Post Office for a significant period.

    I'm not saying the LDs were any worse than the others, but they are certainly not in the clear.
    I don't know how people can say the LibDems aren't ready for government. See: they can fuck things up just as badly as Labour or Conservative.
    LDs have been in government more recently than Labour of course.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,094
    Cyclefree said:

    Christ! Episode 3 of the Bates drama is unbearable. I knew the story of Martin Griffiths but to see it acted out ......

    I spoke earlier about this and it just gets worse and as you say unbearable

    Tomorrow's concluding part will hopefully complete the county's outrage and result in demands for justice and jail time for some
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,698
    It really does surprise that the government recently extended Fujitsus contract to run Horizon, amongst a number of other recent contract awards to the company:

    https://www.computerweekly.com/news/366560655/Controversial-Fujitsu-contract-with-Post-Office-extended-again

    What do they have to do to lose the contract?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,200
    Class act, on and off the oche.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,660
    edited January 3

    viewcode said:

    isam said:

    Wales is, in a way, Labour’s biggest achilles heel.
    Place has been a shit-show since forever, and there appears no desire amongst the Welsh ruling class (nor the Welsh at large, tbh) to address it.

    https://x.com/timmyvoe240886/status/1741144333036757303?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    The tweeter is possibly not the most objective assessor of Labour, tbh...
    I live in Wales and it is not as bad as the Tory client media would have us believe. Betsi Cadwallader and the botched rollout and certainly botched media rollout of the otherwise reasonable idea of the 20mph urban speed limit notwithstanding.

    From my side of Offa's Dyke, the Welsh Government are a 4/10 exam pass. On the bright side the current Welsh government may be very vin ordinaire, but just imagine the sour grapes of a ruddy faced First Minister A.R.T. Davies. The Welsh answer to Liz Truss.
    It’s actually worse.

    There’s barely any Welsh economy to speak of, save social funds directly or indirectly (via the benefits system) redistributed from the rest of the country.

    PISA scores are an abomination. Wales sends barely anyone to Oxbridge nowadays. The health system, as we know, is in a state of crisis.

    Welsh democracy is tightly gripped by an incestuous Labour mafia, and what dissent there exists is hopelessly quixotic or irredeemably moronic.
    You could say most of this about 80% of the country.* Welsh Labour are not responsible for the UK's decline. Yes they've participated in it and thus have to swallow a proportion of the blame. But its absurd to level it all at WL when such poor metrics are available throughout the UK.

    *Chopping and changing for political party.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,105
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,200
    Oh dear Rishi has tweeted about the darts.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    IanB2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Post Office part 3 just starting.

    The whole thing is on ITVX, along with the documentary
    It is a painful watch because we empathise with the SPMs but know there is no happy ending.
    The drama does its best to end on an uplift, and of course they do win their case in court and go on to be cleared and exonerated - at least those in the drama. The eventual ending we still await - the inquiry won't report until 2025.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    ITV News - South Wales Fire Service

    Sexism, misogyny, domestic violence, attacks on whistleblowers, firemen found guilty of misconduct and allowed to retire in full pensions with no adverse consequences.

    The Chief has resigned - yes - on a full pension with the usual pro forma apology.

    Need I go on?

    No - it's the same old story with the same outcome. Everyone gets away with it. And somewhere in a remote office some new procedure gets written so that it can be ignored by the next generation of staff.

    Repeat ad nauseam.

    If PB or something like it exists in a century, Cyclefree - the 3rd generation will probably be writing the same bloody posts with even greater levels of cynicism and despair than I am.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,105

    viewcode said:
    Excellent news. So our data will be handled in a way our sovereign Parliament decrees and in accordance with British laws.

    So it should be.

    And if you don't like those laws, you are free to vote for a new Government at the next election.

    Sovereignty works. Democracy works.
    Er...

    "Google is planning to move its British users' accounts out of the control of European Union privacy regulators, placing them under U.S. jurisdiction instead"
    Er...

    An employee familiar with the planned move said that British privacy rules, which at least for now track GDPR, would continue to apply to that government's requests for data from Google's U.S. headquarters.
    Right, so it's under US jurisdiction (over which we have no influence), but if for the time being Google will kindly continue to apply British privacy rules (which track GDPR, over which we have no influence anymore). Got it.
    It said that British privacy rules apply to "that government's" (ie HMG?) requests for data. It did not say that they apply to American commercial requests.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,667
    I've just strayed on to the Netweather Community winter weather discussion.

    It's completely baffling really, but my amateur conclusion is that the weather nerds are getting rather excited about the prospects for a really cold snap.

    https://community.netweather.tv/topic/99706-model-output-discussion-into-2024/page/113/
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,005
    Frankly, I'm disappointed in both the Guardian and the Mullahs. They could at least have hinted that the US might deserve credit for ridding the earth of some murderous thugs.

    Makes me wonder whether we have lost our coveted position as the "Great Satan".

    And, as a loyal ally, I am disappointed that Britain was, apparently, not mentioned either.

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,423
    Re the PO the media is picking up on it now, just as PB collectively suggested they would. I suspect the story will start to gain more traction now.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,094
    edited January 3

    viewcode said:

    isam said:

    Wales is, in a way, Labour’s biggest achilles heel.
    Place has been a shit-show since forever, and there appears no desire amongst the Welsh ruling class (nor the Welsh at large, tbh) to address it.

    https://x.com/timmyvoe240886/status/1741144333036757303?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    The tweeter is possibly not the most objective assessor of Labour, tbh...
    I live in Wales and it is not as bad as the Tory client media would have us believe. Betsi Cadwallader and the botched rollout and certainly botched media rollout of the otherwise reasonable idea of the 20mph urban speed limit notwithstanding.

    From my side of Offa's Dyke, the Welsh Government are a 4/10 exam pass. On the bright side the current Welsh government may be very vin ordinaire, but just imagine the sour grapes of a ruddy faced First Minister A.R.T. Davies. The Welsh answer to Liz Truss.
    It’s actually worse.

    There’s barely any Welsh economy to speak of, save social funds directly or indirectly (via the benefits system) redistributed from the rest of the country.

    PISA scores are an abomination. Wales sends barely anyone to Oxbridge nowadays. The health system, as we know, is in a state of crisis.

    Welsh democracy is tightly gripped by an incestuous Labour mafia, and what dissent there exists is hopelessly quixotic or irredeemably moronic.
    You are absolutely correct in this and whilst I expect the conservatives to lose many seats in Wales at the next GE, the Senedd elections in 2026 will be interesting

    As the only poster( as far as I am aware) on this forum currently facing a serious health issue here in Wales it has come to something that my son is on 24 hour call to take me to A & E for an emergency pacemaker if my conditions deteriorates before the planned date for the pacemaker of the 5th February

    Wales NHS is in a terrible place and there is no prospect of any improvement anytime soon

    And remember Wales gets £120 per person to England's £100

    Also the 20mph change has been widely condemned across Wales, and it is significant that both candidates to succeed Drakeford have publicallly admitted it and promised a comprehensive review when they take office in March
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    edited January 3
    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    Ed Davey. Not winning here for sub postmasters.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67873197

    “Meanwhile, campaigning in Surrey where the Liberal Democrats are hoping to win a number of Conservative-held seats at the next general election, party leader Sir Ed Davey said he regretted not asking "tougher questions" of Post Office managers when he was postal affairs minister in the coalition government from 2010 to 2012.
    Asked why he refused to meet Alan Bates, the postmaster who led the campaign to expose the Post Office Horizon IT scandal, he said: "It is a national scandal... dreadful and it's been going on for so long. The Conservative government really needs to sort out the compensation.
    "I regret not having asked the Post Office managers even tougher questions than I did."
    Asked why he accepted the Post Office's assertions at face value, Sir Ed replied: "I asked really tough questions of Post Office managers and indeed the officials. I wish I'd gone further."
    He congratulated Mr Bates for his campaign, he added.”

    Ed Davey regrets his part in the Post Office scandal. That's all right then. He regrets it. He's not losing sleep over it, or money, or his job. Do the decent thing, Ed, or STFU.
    He was responsible for 19 months of the two decades. Who are the other ministers responsible, before or after?
    It starts with Blair/Harman and runs right the way through to Johnson, who at least had the decency to authorise a public Inquiry.

    One of the reasons why the story has not gathered more traction is that none of the main political Parties stand to benefit from it. They are all implicated. The LDs had a surprisingly large involvement. In addition to Davy's role, Vince Cable appointed Paula Vennells, and Jo Swinson was effectively Minister for the Post Office for a significant period.

    I'm not saying the LDs were any worse than the others, but they are certainly not in the clear.
    I don't know how people can say the LibDems aren't ready for government. See: they can fuck things up just as badly as Labour or Conservative.
    I suppose one possible conclusion is that elected legislators are not very good at supervising Quangos and government owned corporations. A wide variety of politicians from a wide variety of parties and factions within parties, and no one got it.

    It doesn't absolve individuals but does rather suggest that there is a systemic problem of how we supervise, or more accurately fail to supervise.
    Well that was rather the point of my header -

    "The issue is not ownership. It is how government entities are governed, controlled and kept up to high professional standards. It is how governments avoid creating conflicts of interest or manage them properly, if unavoidable. It is how their Boards and managers are made meaningfully accountable.

    There are no signs that Labour even understands the problem let alone know what to do about it. But backroom as good governance and accountability issue may seem, they are nonetheless one of the next government’s vital tasks.
    "

    If we can't do this, why have such a large state? What is Labour - which believes in a large state - going to do to deal with this?

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,423

    I've just strayed on to the Netweather Community winter weather discussion.

    It's completely baffling really, but my amateur conclusion is that the weather nerds are getting rather excited about the prospects for a really cold snap.

    https://community.netweather.tv/topic/99706-model-output-discussion-into-2024/page/113/

    Caution needed. Many in the snow chasing community (I count myself as one) are still burned by the memory of the failed 2006 easterly…
    The real cold is still 10 days out and much can change in those days.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,336

    Frankly, I'm disappointed in both the Guardian and the Mullahs. They could at least have hinted that the US might deserve credit for ridding the earth of some murderous thugs.

    Makes me wonder whether we have lost our coveted position as the "Great Satan".

    And, as a loyal ally, I am disappointed that Britain was, apparently, not mentioned either.

    Does this mean that they have noticed that we have been living in their heads rent free, and up'd the rates?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,667
    edited January 3
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Post Office part 3 just starting.

    The whole thing is on ITVX, along with the documentary
    It is a painful watch because we empathise with the SPMs but know there is no happy ending.
    The drama does its best to end on an uplift, and of course they do win their case in court and go on to be cleared and exonerated - at least those in the drama. The eventual ending we still await - the inquiry won't report until 2025.
    Er... spoiler alert!

    (Ok I know we all know the story but we plan to watch the drama and would prefer to experience it as intended by the producers.)
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,200

    Re the PO the media is picking up on it now, just as PB collectively suggested they would. I suspect the story will start to gain more traction now.

    It's a shame it wasn't taken up earlier by the creative sector.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,667

    I've just strayed on to the Netweather Community winter weather discussion.

    It's completely baffling really, but my amateur conclusion is that the weather nerds are getting rather excited about the prospects for a really cold snap.

    https://community.netweather.tv/topic/99706-model-output-discussion-into-2024/page/113/

    Caution needed. Many in the snow chasing community (I count myself as one) are still burned by the memory of the failed 2006 easterly…
    The real cold is still 10 days out and much can change in those days.
    Indeed. It did feel a bit like a bunch of kids wish-casting for heavy snow and a few days off school.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,419
    Another great PDC worlds. Luke Humphries has had a brilliant year winning more than one major and deservedly won.

    Onto the waste of time that is the premier league and Q school. I suspect both Luke’s will get a spot in the premier. Like Littler has picked up 250k plus whatever sponsorship money they make.

    I follow the darts all year, but I think it’s great this tournament brings so many new people to the sport.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    Taz said:

    Another great PDC worlds. Luke Humphries has had a brilliant year winning more than one major and deservedly won.

    Onto the waste of time that is the premier league and Q school. I suspect both Luke’s will get a spot in the premier. Like Littler has picked up 250k plus whatever sponsorship money they make.

    I follow the darts all year, but I think it’s great this tournament brings so many new people to the sport.

    The standard of play from these two is utterly ridiculous. They could sweep aside absolutely everyone...
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,000
    edited January 3

    I've just strayed on to the Netweather Community winter weather discussion.

    It's completely baffling really, but my amateur conclusion is that the weather nerds are getting rather excited about the prospects for a really cold snap.

    https://community.netweather.tv/topic/99706-model-output-discussion-into-2024/page/113/

    Caution needed. Many in the snow chasing community (I count myself as one) are still burned by the memory of the failed 2006 easterly…
    The real cold is still 10 days out and much can change in those days.
    Indeed, weather nerd forums get excited about cold snaps the same way economists predicted 10 of the last 3 recessions.

    Much more fruitful, and better odds, predicting heatwaves. For those you just need a reasonably well aligned synoptic setup during a summer month, and a hot source region. And the landing zone is region or country-wide. For memorable snow you need precisely the right Synoptics, exactly the right wind direction, precipitation at the right time and place and a dose of luck.

    That said, it’s definitely going to be cold. And there will be snow *somewhere*
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,698

    viewcode said:

    isam said:

    Wales is, in a way, Labour’s biggest achilles heel.
    Place has been a shit-show since forever, and there appears no desire amongst the Welsh ruling class (nor the Welsh at large, tbh) to address it.

    https://x.com/timmyvoe240886/status/1741144333036757303?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    The tweeter is possibly not the most objective assessor of Labour, tbh...
    I live in Wales and it is not as bad as the Tory client media would have us believe. Betsi Cadwallader and the botched rollout and certainly botched media rollout of the otherwise reasonable idea of the 20mph urban speed limit notwithstanding.

    From my side of Offa's Dyke, the Welsh Government are a 4/10 exam pass. On the bright side the current Welsh government may be very vin ordinaire, but just imagine the sour grapes of a ruddy faced First Minister A.R.T. Davies. The Welsh answer to Liz Truss.
    It’s actually worse.

    There’s barely any Welsh economy to speak of, save social funds directly or indirectly (via the benefits system) redistributed from the rest of the country.

    PISA scores are an abomination. Wales sends barely anyone to Oxbridge nowadays. The health system, as we know, is in a state of crisis.

    Welsh democracy is tightly gripped by an incestuous Labour mafia, and what dissent there exists is hopelessly quixotic or irredeemably moronic.
    You are absolutely correct in this and whilst I expect the conservatives to lose many seats in Wales at the next GE, the Senedd elections in 2026 will be interesting

    As the only poster( as far as I am aware) on this forum currently facing a serious health issue here in Wales it has come to something that my son is on 24 hour call to take me to A & E for an emergency pacemaker if my conditions deteriorates before the planned date for the pacemaker of the 5th February

    Wales NHS is in a terrible place and there is no prospect of any improvement anytime soon

    And remember Wales gets £120 per person to England's £100

    Also the 20mph change has been widely condemned across Wales, and it is significant that both candidates to succeed Drakeford have publicallly admitted it and promised a comprehensive review when they take office in March
    It's not unique to Wales, indeed NI NHS is significantly worse, so doesn't particularly relate to which politicians are in charge, or in the case of NI no government at all.

    This is Portsmouth for example.

    https://twitter.com/PHU_NHS/status/1742503899947266289?t=zykuzrUDm8JkDBECWjm2xQ&s=19
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    edited January 3
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Post Office part 3 just starting.

    The whole thing is on ITVX, along with the documentary
    It is a painful watch because we empathise with the SPMs but know there is no happy ending.
    The drama does its best to end on an uplift, and of course they do win their case in court and go on to be cleared and exonerated - at least those in the drama. The eventual ending we still await - the inquiry won't report until 2025.
    Only 93 convictions have been overturned.

    Re the Bates litigation, yes they did win. But note that because they were funded externally, of the amount they got - through settlement because they were at the end of their funding- £55 million, ca. £46 million was taken up in legal costs. Those costs were enormous because the Post Office fought every single point endlessly and was severely criticised by the court for its behaviour.

    What that meant was that the compensation amounts individual SPMs got was way way less than their losses.

    It was a bit of a Pyrrhic victory. What it did achieve was that it crowbarred open the case and showed that the Post Office had lied about Horizon. It opened the way for the Inquiry. But even now those SPMs have not been compensated and many still have criminal convictions. And 63 of the SPMs have died without seeing any sort of justice or apology.

    I see that Ed Davey is now trying to justify his inaction. A bit bloody late, frankly.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,996
    ...
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,281

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:

    IanB2 said:

    So Amazon Prime video is now introducing adverts unless you agree to pay extra….

    If you pay extra, do you get Amazon Prime Prime?
    This reminds me of what Starbucks call their smallest size coffee. "Tall".

    I've always been infuriated by that. So much so that I refuse to acknowledge it. If for some reason I find myself in Starbucks (which sometimes despite best efforts I do) I will make a point to freight my coffee order with "your smallest size" please.
    They used to have a "Short", but ditched it because it was too small.
    I hear they are relaunching it as the “Rishi”

  • TazTaz Posts: 14,419

    Taz said:

    Another great PDC worlds. Luke Humphries has had a brilliant year winning more than one major and deservedly won.

    Onto the waste of time that is the premier league and Q school. I suspect both Luke’s will get a spot in the premier. Like Littler has picked up 250k plus whatever sponsorship money they make.

    I follow the darts all year, but I think it’s great this tournament brings so many new people to the sport.

    The standard of play from these two is utterly ridiculous. They could sweep aside absolutely everyone...
    And they are both so young too and still have to reach the peak of their careers. They make it look so easy and their averages are exceptional. But so is their finishing.

    It reminds me of the late, great, Sid Waddell quote about Eric Bristow.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,374
    edited January 3

    viewcode said:

    isam said:

    Wales is, in a way, Labour’s biggest achilles heel.
    Place has been a shit-show since forever, and there appears no desire amongst the Welsh ruling class (nor the Welsh at large, tbh) to address it.

    https://x.com/timmyvoe240886/status/1741144333036757303?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    The tweeter is possibly not the most objective assessor of Labour, tbh...
    I live in Wales and it is not as bad as the Tory client media would have us believe. Betsi Cadwallader and the botched rollout and certainly botched media rollout of the otherwise reasonable idea of the 20mph urban speed limit notwithstanding.

    From my side of Offa's Dyke, the Welsh Government are a 4/10 exam pass. On the bright side the current Welsh government may be very vin ordinaire, but just imagine the sour grapes of a ruddy faced First Minister A.R.T. Davies. The Welsh answer to Liz Truss.
    It’s actually worse.

    There’s barely any Welsh economy to speak of, save social funds directly or indirectly (via the benefits system) redistributed from the rest of the country.

    PISA scores are an abomination. Wales sends barely anyone to Oxbridge nowadays. The health system, as we know, is in a state of crisis.

    Welsh democracy is tightly gripped by an incestuous Labour mafia, and what dissent there exists is hopelessly quixotic or irredeemably moronic.
    You are right, there is no remaining manufacturing so to speak of. That ship was sailing before devolution, which you are correct is a one party state, with the alternative being even more abject.

    I don't dispute the PISA figures, although I can't fault my own children's state school experience, and Oxbridge entry is in my view a pretty meaningless metric.

    My mother was summarily executed by the Welsh NHS at the Princess of Wales Hospital during their scandal. With the exception of Betsi Cadwallader the NHS oversight now seems less poor.

    Perhaps here in the Vale of Glamorgan I am insulated from the widespread poverty North of the M4 so I am not best placed to comment, unlike someone who lives in upstate New York.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:

    IanB2 said:

    So Amazon Prime video is now introducing adverts unless you agree to pay extra….

    If you pay extra, do you get Amazon Prime Prime?
    This reminds me of what Starbucks call their smallest size coffee. "Tall".

    I've always been infuriated by that. So much so that I refuse to acknowledge it. If for some reason I find myself in Starbucks (which sometimes despite best efforts I do) I will make a point to freight my coffee order with "your smallest size" please.
    They used to have a "Short", but ditched it because it was too small.
    I hear they are relaunching it as the “Rishi”

    Does sound Italian the way that you say it.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,596
    kinabalu said:

    Oh dear Rishi has tweeted about the darts.

    Man of the people.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,596
    edited January 3

    rcs1000 said:

    MOD NOTICE

    I'm extremely bored of discussions of Luke's looks. Please move on.

    Actually, Leia called Han Solo a "scruffy-looking nerf-herder"!
    Wasn’t Luke a bit short to be a stormtrooper?
    You get that line in Lego Star Wars too. Luke's response is "No, I'm exactly the same height as everyone else in my Universe".
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,281
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:

    IanB2 said:

    So Amazon Prime video is now introducing adverts unless you agree to pay extra….

    If you pay extra, do you get Amazon Prime Prime?
    This reminds me of what Starbucks call their smallest size coffee. "Tall".

    I've always been infuriated by that. So much so that I refuse to acknowledge it. If for some reason I find myself in Starbucks (which sometimes despite best efforts I do) I will make a point to freight my coffee order with "your smallest size" please.
    Standard practice. At McDonalds when I worked there you always asked if customers wanted a large this, that, or the other. There was no small, just medium or large.
    Although there are small and medium options there (eg on the chips) even if the staff are trained to steer you away from them. And on the coffee they describe their smallest as "regular" which is not a complete lie. But this thing of Starbucks, calling their actual smallest available coffee "tall" is just gratuitous mendacity as far as I can see. If they have a good reason for it I'm all ears but I bet they haven't.
    I would assume that it is easier to upsell from tall > grande than from small > grande because of the psychological appeal of the words.

    Whether that it a “good reason” I will leave up to you to decide
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,814
    Trump files to Supreme Court to overturn Colorado judgment.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,005
    Off topic: "Sen. Bob Menendez (D-N.J.) is facing a new set of federal bribery allegations in a superseding indictment unsealed Tuesday that accuses him of providing assistance to the government of Qatar as well as Egypt."
    source$: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/01/02/menendez-qatar-bribery-indictment/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Menendez

    (It's wrong of me, but I can't help being amused that the senator allegedly received some of his bribes in actual gold bars.)
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,374
    Cyclefree said:

    ITV News - South Wales Fire Service

    Sexism, misogyny, domestic violence, attacks on whistleblowers, firemen found guilty of misconduct and allowed to retire in full pensions with no adverse consequences.

    The Chief has resigned - yes - on a full pension with the usual pro forma apology.

    Need I go on?

    No - it's the same old story with the same outcome. Everyone gets away with it. And somewhere in a remote office some new procedure gets written so that it can be ignored by the next generation of staff.

    Repeat ad nauseam.

    If PB or something like it exists in a century, Cyclefree - the 3rd generation will probably be writing the same bloody posts with even greater levels of cynicism and despair than I am.

    You missed out Jakeway's £12,000 (making a £175,000 salary) pay increase awarded as the review was being conducted.

    Next stop Wilts and Dorset Fire Service.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited January 3

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Post Office part 3 just starting.

    The whole thing is on ITVX, along with the documentary
    It is a painful watch because we empathise with the SPMs but know there is no happy ending.
    The drama does its best to end on an uplift, and of course they do win their case in court and go on to be cleared and exonerated - at least those in the drama. The eventual ending we still await - the inquiry won't report until 2025.
    Er... spoiler alert!

    (Ok I know we all know the story but we plan to watch the drama and would prefer to experience it as intended by the producers.)
    It’s a true story and what happened is all over the news! Given the legal issues are current, they are sticking very close to the documented events - this isn’t Netflix!
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    Watching Newsnight for the first time in yonks. I do like Victoria Derbyshire as an interviewer. She just plows over rhetoric and tries to get answers to her questions.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,281
    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:

    IanB2 said:

    So Amazon Prime video is now introducing adverts unless you agree to pay extra….

    If you pay extra, do you get Amazon Prime Prime?
    This reminds me of what Starbucks call their smallest size coffee. "Tall".

    I've always been infuriated by that. So much so that I refuse to acknowledge it. If for some reason I find myself in Starbucks (which sometimes despite best efforts I do) I will make a point to freight my coffee order with "your smallest size" please.
    Standard practice. At McDonalds when I worked there you always asked if customers wanted a large this, that, or the other. There was no small, just medium or large.
    Although there are small and medium options there (eg on the chips) even if the staff are trained to steer you away from them. And on the coffee they describe their smallest as "regular" which is not a complete lie. But this thing of Starbucks, calling their actual smallest available coffee "tall" is just gratuitous mendacity as far as I can see. If they have a good reason for it I'm all ears but I bet they haven't.
    "Tall" used to be the second smallest size and there was a "small", but when they added "venti", they didn't want too many size options and "small" got dropped.
    Starbucks still sells "short" drinks, they're just not listed on the menu. I always have a "short latte".
    Keen to roadtest this but I'm skeptical. Only celebs can usually order off menu.
    It works. Short filter for me, on the rare occasions there isn't a better place nearby...
    I too will avoid Starbucks.

    But there are times when it is the best - or only - option.


    Small Airports in the US, for example. There Starbucks is often the best chance of getting a coffee that isn't flavoured in some weird and deeply unpleasant way.
    Dunkin
    Coffee Bean
    In extremis Peets

    Are all better
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 3
    Taz said:

    Another great PDC worlds. Luke Humphries has had a brilliant year winning more than one major and deservedly won.

    Onto the waste of time that is the premier league and Q school. I suspect both Luke’s will get a spot in the premier. Like Littler has picked up 250k plus whatever sponsorship money they make.

    I follow the darts all year, but I think it’s great this tournament brings so many new people to the sport.

    Russ Bray’s last tournament? I used to love the way he called “85” and told him so when I met him at some do for a Darts magazine in about 2002. He looked at me as if I was a lunatic and walked off!
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,569
    Newsnight leading with Ed Davey and the Post Office scandal.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410

    I've just strayed on to the Netweather Community winter weather discussion.

    It's completely baffling really, but my amateur conclusion is that the weather nerds are getting rather excited about the prospects for a really cold snap.

    https://community.netweather.tv/topic/99706-model-output-discussion-into-2024/page/113/

    Caution needed. Many in the snow chasing community (I count myself as one) are still burned by the memory of the failed 2006 easterly…
    The real cold is still 10 days out and much can change in those days.
    Indeed. It did feel a bit like a bunch of kids wish-casting for heavy snow and a few days off school.
    A few days off school?
    That isn't the kids...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    Foxy said:

    Ed Davey. Not winning here for sub postmasters.


    He congratulated Mr Bates for his campaign, he added.”

    Ed Davey regrets his part in the Post Office scandal. That's all right then. He regrets it. He's not losing sleep over it, or money, or his job. Do the decent thing, Ed, or STFU.
    He was responsible for 19 months of the two decades. Who are the other ministers responsible, before or after?
    It starts with Blair/Harman and runs right the way through to Johnson, who at least had the decency to authorise a public Inquiry.

    One of the reasons why the story has not gathered more traction is that none of the main political Parties stand to benefit from it. They are all implicated. The LDs had a surprisingly large involvement. In addition to Davy's role, Vince Cable appointed Paula Vennells, and Jo Swinson was effectively Minister for the Post Office for a significant period.
    It goes further back than that - it was under the Tories that the system was originally commissioned, as an early PFI project in the mid 1990s. The PO had done a deal with that government that benefit claimants would have a ‘benefits card’, replacing the then familiar giro, effectively forcing benefit claimants to continue visiting the post office. The PO was terrified that if claimants got their benefits straight into a bank account, much of their weekly footfall would disappear. Of course, back then bank account penetration amongst the poor was often low, giving them a strong card to play.

    When New Labour came to power, the project was already over budget, hugely delayed, and not working well. And more people were getting bank accounts. So the BA was getting a cold feet, and after six months of seeing if the original plan would fly, the government decided that the benefit card was a blind alley and pulled out. There were crisis meetings because the Post Office risked losing its automation programme altogether; in the event they patched up a deal enabling the PO and Fujitsu to limp on without the DWP. But it left the PO with an over-engineered system designed around a facility they would no longer be using, and so the IT was more complicated than it should have been given the people who would be using it. The first seed in what turned into a long and tragic series of events.

    Vennells would have been a Board appointment, not a government one. Whether the government would have had any other involvement, other than via its rep on the board, I don’t know. We can’t really blame Cable for Vennells, especially as she was by then an internal promotee.

This discussion has been closed.