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An MPs behaviour – now the main trigger for Westminster by-elections – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,214
edited January 8 in General
imageAn MPs behaviour – now the main trigger for Westminster by-elections – politicalbetting.com

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  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,133
    It is an odd world in which repeatedly inflicting policy calamities on this country is spun away and quickly forgotten, while somtimes trivial personal foibles end careers.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,420
    edited January 3
    At the party level, it makes no difference today but in a more finely balanced Parliament, this could end a government's majority. Cynics might wonder if spurious allegations could be made in order to trigger an early general election in those circumstances. Can the Honourable Member for Dunny-on-the-Wold prove she did not ogle that buff researcher 18 months ago, or that the money was only resting in her account?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,420
    Boris Johnson is the only MP to have resigned in both periods: first on being elected Mayor of London; more recently over Partygate fibs. His botched honours list led to two more departures.
  • sbjme19sbjme19 Posts: 194
    Fishing said:

    It is an odd world in which repeatedly inflicting policy calamities on this country is spun away and quickly forgotten, while somtimes trivial personal foibles end careers.

    But it's the personal foibles on top of the policy calamities, like the icing on the cake.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193
    This is where a precipitous drop in the birth rate is first really felt.

    Number of new elementary school students set to hit record low
    https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=366226
    ..In Seoul, the number of children entering elementary school this year will be 59,492, down 10.3 percent from a year earlier. The number has been declining sharply from 78,118 in 2019 and 66,324 in 2023.

    The number of new elementary schoolers is anticipated to show a faster drop in coming years because the number of newborns is plummeting quickly.

    The number of children who were born in 2019 was 302,676, down from 357,771 in 2017 and 326,822 in 2018.

    Given that the number of new elementary schoolers is anticipated to stand at 90 percent of the total number of eligible children, the number of those who enter elementary school in 2026 will likely stand below 300,000, just two years after the number plunged below the 400,000 mark in 2024.

    Against that backdrop, the government has set the low birthrate as one of the main policy priorities that it will concentrate on this year.

    "We need a completely different approach as we look for the causes and find solutions to the problem," President Yoon Suk Yeol said during his New Year speech. "We must find out the real reasons for the low birthrate and identify effective measures.".


    A socially conservative government is highly unlikely to find rapid or effective solutions to the problem, I think - and the time to take it seriously would have been a decade ago.

    We should be watching this closely, as if we do decide massively to limit immigration, it's not inconceivable we'll face something similar in time.

    A very slowly declining birth rate is probably not a serious matter. A fast decline promises unavoidable and continuing economic shocks.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,002
    Harvard University President Dr Claudine Gay has finally been forced to resign, after only six months in the role.

    https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2024/1/3/claudine-gay-resign-harvard/

    She was the one who told Congress that it was perfectly fine to call for the genocide of Jews on campus, leading to a donor boycott of the university - then it turned out that much of her own academic work was dubious at best, and plagiarised at worst.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127
    Fishing said:

    It is an odd world in which repeatedly inflicting policy calamities on this country is spun away and quickly forgotten, while somtimes trivial personal foibles end careers.

    Not sure that these were trivial foibles. Sexually exposing oneself at office staff for example would get suspension or fired in most jobs.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469
    Way off-topic:

    Someone has done a passenger flow map for every railway station in the UK. The results are quite fascinating - at least for this train nerd.

    https://github.com/anisotropi4/kingfisher/blob/main/station.md
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084

    I've been in a slight post-Christmas lull mood-wise; I've not been feeling very low (I rarely if ever do), just a general apathy and unhappiness.

    I've just come back from my first pre-dawn run for many months, during which I saw a fox, a deer, a bat and an owl (not at the same time). These were all in suburban areas of the town.

    And suddenly, for the first time in a couple of weeks, I feel very happy.

    Fabulous JJ.

    There’s a lot of support for Nature improving our mood and we don’t have to head into the remotest wilds to find it, as you have encountered this morning.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469
    Following on from yesterday's discussion on here, I've tried to find figures for the amount of missiles Russia has fired into Ukraine over time. There are various broad-brush summaries, but no real spreadsheet-like figures. Which is odd, because I'd expect someone to be noting it.

    The nearest I could find is the bottom line of the following image. But the source sets my nose twitching a little.
    https://twitter.com/HerrDr8/status/1742361506275033329/photo/2

    Does anyone know if definitive figures are publicly available?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469
    Heathener said:

    I've been in a slight post-Christmas lull mood-wise; I've not been feeling very low (I rarely if ever do), just a general apathy and unhappiness.

    I've just come back from my first pre-dawn run for many months, during which I saw a fox, a deer, a bat and an owl (not at the same time). These were all in suburban areas of the town.

    And suddenly, for the first time in a couple of weeks, I feel very happy.

    Fabulous JJ.

    There’s a lot of support for Nature improving our mood and we don’t have to head into the remotest wilds to find it, as you have encountered this morning.
    Also: exercise can improve mood as well. At least, it can for me.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,961
    On topic, to quote the great Liz Truss, this is a disgrace.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084

    Heathener said:

    I've been in a slight post-Christmas lull mood-wise; I've not been feeling very low (I rarely if ever do), just a general apathy and unhappiness.

    I've just come back from my first pre-dawn run for many months, during which I saw a fox, a deer, a bat and an owl (not at the same time). These were all in suburban areas of the town.

    And suddenly, for the first time in a couple of weeks, I feel very happy.

    Fabulous JJ.

    There’s a lot of support for Nature improving our mood and we don’t have to head into the remotest wilds to find it, as you have encountered this morning.
    Also: exercise can improve mood as well. At least, it can for me.
    Definitely. And lots of solid science to back that too.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,133
    edited January 3
    A couple of days ago I said my fondest wish for this year is that we finally get serious about kicking Russia out of Ukraine.

    Here are some more hopes, no doubt mostly unrealistic, especially in an election year, but anyway:

    - we should finally get serious about prioritising economic growth for the first time in decades. Our politicians have been lazy and complacent about it for too long. Ever since Cameron talked about sharing the proceeds of growth, thereby ensuring there would be none, we haven't had a decent growth agenda in this country. Politicians have prioritised short term vote winning over long-term expansion. But the economy can't forever absorb whatever damage they inflict on it, and it won't keep powering on regardless.
    - related, we need to expand our stock of decent homes. I know I always bang this drum, but removing restrictions to self-build, which is far lower here than in Continental Europe, is the obvious first step. It is not only desirable in itself, but it would also stimulate economic growth. Axing more of the obvious absurdities in the planning system, like thousand page bat studies, would also help. And a full attack on the architectural profession, to make them design houses that people actually want to look at, couldn't do any harm either.
    - we need to rebuild many public services, starting, imho, with the Army, which is in such a shocking state that the Americans don't think it's battle-ready, and would need perhaps a decade to make it so. Again, a long-term project, with no votes in it, but it is a good time to do it, with lessons from the Ukraine war ready to be incorporated in our defence. I'm not sure the answer is increasing expenditure - it could just be getting more value for what we do spend, through better procurement, but I'm willing to be argued out of that view.
    - the criminal justice system is likewise stretched to breaking point. Personally, I incline to the view of a former home secretary, that prison is an expensive way of making bad people worse, so I am sympathetic to ending, or at least greatly reducing, prison sentences for low level crimes. But again, I'm willing to be dissuaded. And the courts and the police likely do need more resources.

    I could list more, but if we can make meaningful progress on those this year, 2024 won't be yet another wasted twelve months.

    And if pigs could fly ...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,961
    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,835
    Our experiences judge our mood. I have been in East Surrey hospital keeping an eye on a 94 yr old father in law who was on a trolley (along with about 40.others in corridors) from 10 am.Monday till 5pm yesterday when he had an endoscopy. At least he is now in a bed being properly cared for. God alone knows what it will be like going forward with junior doctors on strike. Here at least the law must be changed to stop health staff from striking and a national.formula for pay agreed. I was almost in tears for some of the mainly elderly there. There also needs to be an agreement for numbers of doctors and nurses in proportion to.population. it cannot go on like this.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    I can't.

    Though some of the hyperbolic reporting is undeniably entertaining.

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/jan/02/teenager-luke-littler-crushes-rob-cross-to-storm-to-world-darts-final
    ... But at half past nine on the second evening of 2024, the future spectacularly and violently mutated into the present..

    ...throwing with the menace and relish of a kid who just knows, down to his very bones, that his darts can cash every cheque his hubris writes.

    ...If you want to measure the strength of a storm, you check the historical record, you survey the destruction and levelled buildings it leaves in its wake. You don’t thrust a microphone into the breeze and ask it to explain itself.

    ... But this is Littler’s world now, and somehow everyone else in it – past, present and future – feels ornamental...
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,705

    Our experiences judge our mood. I have been in East Surrey hospital keeping an eye on a 94 yr old father in law who was on a trolley (along with about 40.others in corridors) from 10 am.Monday till 5pm yesterday when he had an endoscopy. At least he is now in a bed being properly cared for. God alone knows what it will be like going forward with junior doctors on strike. Here at least the law must be changed to stop health staff from striking and a national.formula for pay agreed. I was almost in tears for some of the mainly elderly there. There also needs to be an agreement for numbers of doctors and nurses in proportion to.population. it cannot go on like this.

    Direct your ire at number 10 where it belongs. This is a direct result of 13 years of Conservative government. If you want change you know what to do.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,961

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    Because most of the country thinks it has turned out shit?

    They want to flush that great Brexit turd.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,705

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    Because most of the country thinks it has turned out shit?

    They want to flush that great Brexit turd.
    Bullseye.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,961
    Nigelb said:

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    I can't.

    Though some of the hyperbolic reporting is undeniably entertaining.

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/jan/02/teenager-luke-littler-crushes-rob-cross-to-storm-to-world-darts-final
    ... But at half past nine on the second evening of 2024, the future spectacularly and violently mutated into the present..

    ...throwing with the menace and relish of a kid who just knows, down to his very bones, that his darts can cash every cheque his hubris writes.

    ...If you want to measure the strength of a storm, you check the historical record, you survey the destruction and levelled buildings it leaves in its wake. You don’t thrust a microphone into the breeze and ask it to explain itself.

    ... But this is Littler’s world now, and somehow everyone else in it – past, present and future – feels ornamental...
    They are no Sid Waddell, this is the line you'd expect from a Cambridge historian.

    When Alexander III of Macedonia was 33, he cried salt tears because there were no more worlds to conquer, Eric Bristow's only 27.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    Because they didn't get what they voted for.
    Actually that's over two thirds of the country.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    Because most of the country thinks it has turned out shit?

    They want to flush that great Brexit turd.
    You see youre obsessed.

    Why not just chill out and come to terms with it.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Jonathan said:

    Our experiences judge our mood. I have been in East Surrey hospital keeping an eye on a 94 yr old father in law who was on a trolley (along with about 40.others in corridors) from 10 am.Monday till 5pm yesterday when he had an endoscopy. At least he is now in a bed being properly cared for. God alone knows what it will be like going forward with junior doctors on strike. Here at least the law must be changed to stop health staff from striking and a national.formula for pay agreed. I was almost in tears for some of the mainly elderly there. There also needs to be an agreement for numbers of doctors and nurses in proportion to.population. it cannot go on like this.

    Direct your ire at number 10 where it belongs. This is a direct result of 13 years of Conservative government. If you want change you know what to do.
    What ?

    SKS is no different than Sunak.
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 994
    Heathener said:

    I’m separating this part of my response as it’s less likely to draw support.

    I have found my mood immeasurably better from switching off the News. Entirely for 2 months. I disengaged from all social media, including this site, didn’t read any newspapers or feeds, and tried to engage with Nature. I’ve no idea what happened in the previous 2 months in the outside world. I realised that I can’t change it so what’s the point in stressing about it? And it’s wonderful not to be involved in any disagreements, or even arguments, with people I’ve never met and don’t really know.

    I’m heading abroad soon for a lengthy period, including some time connecting with Nature and fairly remote, and I don’t intend following so-called “News” there either.


    Flanders and Swann's Ostrich Song came to mind:

    Boo-ka-Pee, they can't see me
    As long as I've got me head in the sand
    Peek-a-Boo, it may be true
    There's something in what you've said
    But we've got enough troubles in everyday life
    I just bury me....

    (BOOM)

    From a sheltered oasis a mile away
    I observed that dreadful scene
    And a single plume came floating down
    Where my Ostrich friend had been
    Because he could not bear the sound
    Of these words I had left unsaid;
    'Here in this nuclear testing ground
    Is no place to bury your head!'
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,961
    Nigelb said:

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    Because they didn't get what they voted for.
    Actually that's over two thirds of the country.
    This was probably 2023's most astonishing poll findings give how immigration played a part in 2016.

    A majority of Britons would support joining the single market, even if this meant free movement of people

    All Britons

    Support: 57%

    Oppose: 22%


    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1729828017373843530

    Those Brexit = Prohibition analogies prove truer with each passing day.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,898

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    Because most of the country thinks it has turned out shit?

    They want to flush that great Brexit turd.
    You see youre obsessed.

    Why not just chill out and come to terms with it.
    Because Britain deserves better.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,961

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    Because most of the country thinks it has turned out shit?

    They want to flush that great Brexit turd.
    You see youre obsessed.

    Why not just chill out and come to terms with it.
    I am fine with it, Brexit has benefitted me personally, see my post at 7.47 which shows where the country is.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,898
    Jonathan said:

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    Because most of the country thinks it has turned out shit?

    They want to flush that great Brexit turd.
    Bullseye.
    Yes, we need to do a one hundred and eighty.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,710

    Nigelb said:

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    Because they didn't get what they voted for.
    Actually that's over two thirds of the country.
    This was probably 2023's most astonishing poll findings give how immigration played a part in 2016.

    A majority of Britons would support joining the single market, even if this meant free movement of people

    All Britons

    Support: 57%

    Oppose: 22%


    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1729828017373843530

    Those Brexit = Prohibition analogies prove truer with each passing day.
    Good morning all!
    Have I missed something? I’ve never seen such an analogy! Although on reflection……
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,705

    Jonathan said:

    Our experiences judge our mood. I have been in East Surrey hospital keeping an eye on a 94 yr old father in law who was on a trolley (along with about 40.others in corridors) from 10 am.Monday till 5pm yesterday when he had an endoscopy. At least he is now in a bed being properly cared for. God alone knows what it will be like going forward with junior doctors on strike. Here at least the law must be changed to stop health staff from striking and a national.formula for pay agreed. I was almost in tears for some of the mainly elderly there. There also needs to be an agreement for numbers of doctors and nurses in proportion to.population. it cannot go on like this.

    Direct your ire at number 10 where it belongs. This is a direct result of 13 years of Conservative government. If you want change you know what to do.
    What ?

    SKS is no different than Sunak.
    Not that old cchq bunker spin again. Last refuge.

    No they are not the same. Did you see the waiting list chart over successive Labour and Tory governments? A very stark difference. If you care about NHS waiting lists you know what to do.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,835
    Jonathan said:

    Our experiences judge our mood. I have been in East Surrey hospital keeping an eye on a 94 yr old father in law who was on a trolley (along with about 40.others in corridors) from 10 am.Monday till 5pm yesterday when he had an endoscopy. At least he is now in a bed being properly cared for. God alone knows what it will be like going forward with junior doctors on strike. Here at least the law must be changed to stop health staff from striking and a national.formula for pay agreed. I was almost in tears for some of the mainly elderly there. There also needs to be an agreement for numbers of doctors and nurses in proportion to.population. it cannot go on like this.

    Direct your ire at number 10 where it belongs. This is a direct result of 13 years of Conservative government. If you want change you know what to do.
    It goes back longer than tgst with the disastrous agreement by Gordon McDoom to allow GPs to give up nights and weekends. A and E has been a jam ever since. Its NOT always the Tories though they have a lot to answer for.
    There should be a deal with Doctors that they pay no tuition fees but can't go abroad for x yrs after qualifying.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,898
    Fishing said:

    It is an odd world in which repeatedly inflicting policy calamities on this country is spun away and quickly forgotten, while somtimes trivial personal foibles end careers.

    We haven't forgotten Brexit, don't worry.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    Because most of the country thinks it has turned out shit?

    They want to flush that great Brexit turd.
    You see youre obsessed.

    Why not just chill out and come to terms with it.
    I am fine with it, Brexit has benefitted me personally, see my post at 7.47 which shows where the country is.
    LOL, I have many friends in your position, they all claim they are doing well out of Brexit even though they voted Remain. But theyre still having a sulk because they called it wrong.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Our experiences judge our mood. I have been in East Surrey hospital keeping an eye on a 94 yr old father in law who was on a trolley (along with about 40.others in corridors) from 10 am.Monday till 5pm yesterday when he had an endoscopy. At least he is now in a bed being properly cared for. God alone knows what it will be like going forward with junior doctors on strike. Here at least the law must be changed to stop health staff from striking and a national.formula for pay agreed. I was almost in tears for some of the mainly elderly there. There also needs to be an agreement for numbers of doctors and nurses in proportion to.population. it cannot go on like this.

    Direct your ire at number 10 where it belongs. This is a direct result of 13 years of Conservative government. If you want change you know what to do.
    What ?

    SKS is no different than Sunak.
    Not that old cchq bunker spin again. Last refuge.

    No they are not the same. Did you see the waiting list chart over successive Labour and Tory governments? A very stark difference. If you care about NHS waiting lists you know what to do.
    Well J lets hope youre right, but I honestly cant see it.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,590

    Jonathan said:

    Our experiences judge our mood. I have been in East Surrey hospital keeping an eye on a 94 yr old father in law who was on a trolley (along with about 40.others in corridors) from 10 am.Monday till 5pm yesterday when he had an endoscopy. At least he is now in a bed being properly cared for. God alone knows what it will be like going forward with junior doctors on strike. Here at least the law must be changed to stop health staff from striking and a national.formula for pay agreed. I was almost in tears for some of the mainly elderly there. There also needs to be an agreement for numbers of doctors and nurses in proportion to.population. it cannot go on like this.

    Direct your ire at number 10 where it belongs. This is a direct result of 13 years of Conservative government. If you want change you know what to do.
    What ?

    SKS is no different than Sunak.
    Which might work if Sunak was highly regarded. But Rishi been tested (by being leader for over a year) and demonstrated that he isn't any good.

    So even if SKS is no different than Sunak you may as well go for SKS because Rishi has undoubtly upset most people for 1 reason or another...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730
    edited January 3

    Way off-topic:

    Someone has done a passenger flow map for every railway station in the UK. The results are quite fascinating - at least for this train nerd.

    https://github.com/anisotropi4/kingfisher/blob/main/station.md

    It’s not every station. They’ve forgotten the Chase line at least.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127

    Our experiences judge our mood. I have been in East Surrey hospital keeping an eye on a 94 yr old father in law who was on a trolley (along with about 40.others in corridors) from 10 am.Monday till 5pm yesterday when he had an endoscopy. At least he is now in a bed being properly cared for. God alone knows what it will be like going forward with junior doctors on strike. Here at least the law must be changed to stop health staff from striking and a national.formula for pay agreed. I was almost in tears for some of the mainly elderly there. There also needs to be an agreement for numbers of doctors and nurses in proportion to.population. it cannot go on like this.

    The reason for the strikes is that the pay review board system is broken. I voted to accept the Consultants deal in part because it includes a commitment to reform the pay board.

    No one is happy that the strikes are resuming, but there are no negotiations at the moment to stop them.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,474

    At the party level, it makes no difference today but in a more finely balanced Parliament, this could end a government's majority. Cynics might wonder if spurious allegations could be made in order to trigger an early general election in those circumstances. Can the Honourable Member for Dunny-on-the-Wold prove she did not ogle that buff researcher 18 months ago, or that the money was only resting in her account?

    Is there any suggestion that spurious allegations would lead to a by-election? Is the system not robust enough to prevent that from happening?

    Or, put another way, do you think any of the cases that we have had are spurious?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Our experiences judge our mood. I have been in East Surrey hospital keeping an eye on a 94 yr old father in law who was on a trolley (along with about 40.others in corridors) from 10 am.Monday till 5pm yesterday when he had an endoscopy. At least he is now in a bed being properly cared for. God alone knows what it will be like going forward with junior doctors on strike. Here at least the law must be changed to stop health staff from striking and a national.formula for pay agreed. I was almost in tears for some of the mainly elderly there. There also needs to be an agreement for numbers of doctors and nurses in proportion to.population. it cannot go on like this.

    Direct your ire at number 10 where it belongs. This is a direct result of 13 years of Conservative government. If you want change you know what to do.
    What ?

    SKS is no different than Sunak.
    Not that old cchq bunker spin again. Last refuge.

    No they are not the same. Did you see the waiting list chart over successive Labour and Tory governments? A very stark difference. If you care about NHS waiting lists you know what to do.
    Alanbrooke appears to be in denial on all fronts this morning.

    As for Starmer, I'm reasonably sure he'll find ways to mess up entirely different from the current shower. But I will reserve judgment until he's actually been running the government.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    Following on from yesterday's discussion on here, I've tried to find figures for the amount of missiles Russia has fired into Ukraine over time. There are various broad-brush summaries, but no real spreadsheet-like figures. Which is odd, because I'd expect someone to be noting it.

    The nearest I could find is the bottom line of the following image. But the source sets my nose twitching a little.
    https://twitter.com/HerrDr8/status/1742361506275033329/photo/2

    Does anyone know if definitive figures are publicly available?

    Certainly a shitload for sure and as ever the yanks are backpedalling only interested in themselves.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127
    ydoethur said:

    Way off-topic:

    Someone has done a passenger flow map for every railway station in the UK. The results are quite fascinating - at least for this train nerd.

    https://github.com/anisotropi4/kingfisher/blob/main/station.md

    It’s not every station. They’ve forgotten the Chase line at least.
    Leicester and Melton Mowbray are missing too, though the map of Market Harborough is quite beautiful.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,474
    Fishing said:

    It is an odd world in which repeatedly inflicting policy calamities on this country is spun away and quickly forgotten, while somtimes trivial personal foibles end careers.

    Which cases do you consider to have been “trivial personal foibles”?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469
    ydoethur said:

    Way off-topic:

    Someone has done a passenger flow map for every railway station in the UK. The results are quite fascinating - at least for this train nerd.

    https://github.com/anisotropi4/kingfisher/blob/main/station.md

    It’s not every station. They’ve forgotten the Chase line at least.
    Which ones? I can find the Rugeleys, Bloxwich and Cannock?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Way off-topic:

    Someone has done a passenger flow map for every railway station in the UK. The results are quite fascinating - at least for this train nerd.

    https://github.com/anisotropi4/kingfisher/blob/main/station.md

    It’s not every station. They’ve forgotten the Chase line at least.
    Leicester and Melton Mowbray are missing too, though the map of Market Harborough is quite beautiful.
    ???

    https://github.com/anisotropi4/kingfisher/blob/main/image/L/LEI-rail.png
    https://github.com/anisotropi4/kingfisher/blob/main/image/M/MMO-rail.png
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    Nigelb said:

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    Because they didn't get what they voted for.
    Actually that's over two thirds of the country.
    This was probably 2023's most astonishing poll findings give how immigration played a part in 2016.

    A majority of Britons would support joining the single market, even if this meant free movement of people

    All Britons

    Support: 57%

    Oppose: 22%


    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1729828017373843530

    Those Brexit = Prohibition analogies prove truer with each passing day.
    ROFL not astonishing at all.

    Weve had 8 years to forget the downsides of the EU - no budget bust ups like at present, or additional legislation we dont need, no Macron trying to boss everyone about. Put the reality back in the mix and watch those numbers change.

    Thisis like people remembering how the war brought us all together but forgetting the nightly bombings, rationing and deaths.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    Because most of the country thinks it has turned out shit?

    They want to flush that great Brexit turd.
    You see youre obsessed.

    Why not just chill out and come to terms with it.
    I am fine with it, Brexit has benefitted me personally, see my post at 7.47 which shows where the country is.
    Methinks you doth protest too much.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,961

    Nigelb said:

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    Because they didn't get what they voted for.
    Actually that's over two thirds of the country.
    This was probably 2023's most astonishing poll findings give how immigration played a part in 2016.

    A majority of Britons would support joining the single market, even if this meant free movement of people

    All Britons

    Support: 57%

    Oppose: 22%


    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1729828017373843530

    Those Brexit = Prohibition analogies prove truer with each passing day.
    Good morning all!
    Have I missed something? I’ve never seen such an analogy! Although on reflection……
    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2023/06/13/reversing-brexit-lessons-from-history/
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127
    edited January 3

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    Because most of the country thinks it has turned out shit?

    They want to flush that great Brexit turd.
    You see youre obsessed.

    Why not just chill out and come to terms with it.
    I am fine with it, Brexit has benefitted me personally, see my post at 7.47 which shows where the country is.
    LOL, I have many friends in your position, they all claim they are doing well out of Brexit even though they voted Remain. But theyre still having a sulk because they called it wrong.
    That's one of the great paradoxes of Brexit. The dynamic metropolises of Remania have economically adjusted, the backwaters of Leaverstan further degrade.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Nigelb said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Our experiences judge our mood. I have been in East Surrey hospital keeping an eye on a 94 yr old father in law who was on a trolley (along with about 40.others in corridors) from 10 am.Monday till 5pm yesterday when he had an endoscopy. At least he is now in a bed being properly cared for. God alone knows what it will be like going forward with junior doctors on strike. Here at least the law must be changed to stop health staff from striking and a national.formula for pay agreed. I was almost in tears for some of the mainly elderly there. There also needs to be an agreement for numbers of doctors and nurses in proportion to.population. it cannot go on like this.

    Direct your ire at number 10 where it belongs. This is a direct result of 13 years of Conservative government. If you want change you know what to do.
    What ?

    SKS is no different than Sunak.
    Not that old cchq bunker spin again. Last refuge.

    No they are not the same. Did you see the waiting list chart over successive Labour and Tory governments? A very stark difference. If you care about NHS waiting lists you know what to do.
    Alanbrooke appears to be in denial on all fronts this morning.

    As for Starmer, I'm reasonably sure he'll find ways to mess up entirely different from the current shower. But I will reserve judgment until he's actually been running the government.
    Great Nige can we go on to why Joe Biden shouldnt be POTUS ?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    They have buyer's remorse Alan, they realise now how thick they are. Taken in by a bunch of grifters.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730
    edited January 3

    ydoethur said:

    Way off-topic:

    Someone has done a passenger flow map for every railway station in the UK. The results are quite fascinating - at least for this train nerd.

    https://github.com/anisotropi4/kingfisher/blob/main/station.md

    It’s not every station. They’ve forgotten the Chase line at least.
    Which ones? I can find the Rugeleys, Bloxwich and Cannock?
    I couldn’t find Cannock or Hednesford. I thought I must be overlooking Cannock until I realised Hednesford was missing too.

    Edit - I can find Landywood and Bloxwich North, so it’s not all of them.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    Heathener said:

    I’m separating this part of my response as it’s less likely to draw support.

    I have found my mood immeasurably better from switching off the News. Entirely for 2 months. I disengaged from all social media, including this site, didn’t read any newspapers or feeds, and tried to engage with Nature. I’ve no idea what happened in the previous 2 months in the outside world. I realised that I can’t change it so what’s the point in stressing about it? And it’s wonderful not to be involved in any disagreements, or even arguments, with people I’ve never met and don’t really know.

    I’m heading abroad soon for a lengthy period, including some time connecting with Nature and fairly remote, and I don’t intend following so-called “News” there either.

    Don't forget to pack your thermos.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046

    Our experiences judge our mood. I have been in East Surrey hospital keeping an eye on a 94 yr old father in law who was on a trolley (along with about 40.others in corridors) from 10 am.Monday till 5pm yesterday when he had an endoscopy. At least he is now in a bed being properly cared for. God alone knows what it will be like going forward with junior doctors on strike. Here at least the law must be changed to stop health staff from striking and a national.formula for pay agreed. I was almost in tears for some of the mainly elderly there. There also needs to be an agreement for numbers of doctors and nurses in proportion to.population. it cannot go on like this.

    Friend of mine (!), phlebotomist, said that on many levels everything runs so much more smoothly when the junior doctors are on strike as the senior ones just do stuff instead of referring it up the chain for each and every decision.

    Very sorry to hear about your father in law, obvs, and I don't disagree with some kind of "protected employment" category where strikes would be subject to some kind of administrative restraint. Not exactly free market but a government needs to be able to ensure the well-being of its citizens given the current NHS structure.

    Of course the NHS needs root and branch reform, as some may know is my view, and interestingly, watching Mr Bates vs The Post Office, there is a lot of talk of a "National Institution" being fallible. I suppose we have had (comparable? worse?) scandal after scandal in the NHS and still people venerate it but I suppose one can hope its day will come at some point.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Way off-topic:

    Someone has done a passenger flow map for every railway station in the UK. The results are quite fascinating - at least for this train nerd.

    https://github.com/anisotropi4/kingfisher/blob/main/station.md

    It’s not every station. They’ve forgotten the Chase line at least.
    Which ones? I can find the Rugeleys, Bloxwich and Cannock?
    I couldn’t find Cannock or Hednesford. I thought I must be overlooking Cannock until I realised Hednesford was missing too.
    They're all on there:
    https://github.com/anisotropi4/kingfisher/blob/main/image/C/CAO-rail.png
    https://github.com/anisotropi4/kingfisher/blob/main/image/H/HNF-rail.png

    Hmmm. I wonder if the issue is the Github interface: the one you and @Foxy are reporting missing are all in the right-hand of the two columns. What device are you viewing it on?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,705

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Our experiences judge our mood. I have been in East Surrey hospital keeping an eye on a 94 yr old father in law who was on a trolley (along with about 40.others in corridors) from 10 am.Monday till 5pm yesterday when he had an endoscopy. At least he is now in a bed being properly cared for. God alone knows what it will be like going forward with junior doctors on strike. Here at least the law must be changed to stop health staff from striking and a national.formula for pay agreed. I was almost in tears for some of the mainly elderly there. There also needs to be an agreement for numbers of doctors and nurses in proportion to.population. it cannot go on like this.

    Direct your ire at number 10 where it belongs. This is a direct result of 13 years of Conservative government. If you want change you know what to do.
    What ?

    SKS is no different than Sunak.
    Not that old cchq bunker spin again. Last refuge.

    No they are not the same. Did you see the waiting list chart over successive Labour and Tory governments? A very stark difference. If you care about NHS waiting lists you know what to do.
    Well J lets hope youre right, but I honestly cant see it.
    It’s pretty clear that this government has now failed. Fortunately we live in a democracy and have a viable alternative. We need fresh ideas and new minds on the problem Something to feel good about and not take for granted these days.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Foxy said:

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    Because most of the country thinks it has turned out shit?

    They want to flush that great Brexit turd.
    You see youre obsessed.

    Why not just chill out and come to terms with it.
    I am fine with it, Brexit has benefitted me personally, see my post at 7.47 which shows where the country is.
    LOL, I have many friends in your position, they all claim they are doing well out of Brexit even though they voted Remain. But theyre still having a sulk because they called it wrong.
    That's one of the great paradoxes of Brexit. The dynamic metropolises of Remania have economically adjusted, the backwaters of Leaverstan further degrade.
    Real wages are actually growing and we have nearly full employment. The doom laden scenarios are nowhere to be seen. Manufacturing has even improved its position by overtaking France. Most of the UKs weaknesses are self inflicted and could have been sorted out in the EU, but none of the UK parties wanted to tackle them.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193
    19 years ago today, the Russian foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, said it would be absolutely fine for Ukraine to join NATO
    https://twitter.com/anneapplebaum/status/1742270519972421750

    #Putin said similar in 2002: “I am absolutely convinced that #Ukraine will not shy away from processes of expanding interaction with #NATO and Western allies as a whole. Ukraine has its own relations with NATO... At end of day the decision is to be taken by NATO and Ukraine.”
    https://twitter.com/steven_pifer/status/1742389514352656655

    What changed is that the Ukrainian people kicked out his puppets.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Way off-topic:

    Someone has done a passenger flow map for every railway station in the UK. The results are quite fascinating - at least for this train nerd.

    https://github.com/anisotropi4/kingfisher/blob/main/station.md

    It’s not every station. They’ve forgotten the Chase line at least.
    Leicester and Melton Mowbray are missing too, though the map of Market Harborough is quite beautiful.
    ???

    https://github.com/anisotropi4/kingfisher/blob/main/image/L/LEI-rail.png
    https://github.com/anisotropi4/kingfisher/blob/main/image/M/MMO-rail.png
    They don't appear in the alphabetic list that you linked to.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Our experiences judge our mood. I have been in East Surrey hospital keeping an eye on a 94 yr old father in law who was on a trolley (along with about 40.others in corridors) from 10 am.Monday till 5pm yesterday when he had an endoscopy. At least he is now in a bed being properly cared for. God alone knows what it will be like going forward with junior doctors on strike. Here at least the law must be changed to stop health staff from striking and a national.formula for pay agreed. I was almost in tears for some of the mainly elderly there. There also needs to be an agreement for numbers of doctors and nurses in proportion to.population. it cannot go on like this.

    Direct your ire at number 10 where it belongs. This is a direct result of 13 years of Conservative government. If you want change you know what to do.
    What ?

    SKS is no different than Sunak.
    Not that old cchq bunker spin again. Last refuge.

    No they are not the same. Did you see the waiting list chart over successive Labour and Tory governments? A very stark difference. If you care about NHS waiting lists you know what to do.
    Well J lets hope youre right, but I honestly cant see it.
    It’s pretty clear that this government has now failed. Fortunately we live in a democracy and have a viable alternative. We need fresh ideas and new minds on the problem Something to feel good about and not take for granted these days.
    Starmer doesnt have any fresh ideas. Just the same old ones.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Way off-topic:

    Someone has done a passenger flow map for every railway station in the UK. The results are quite fascinating - at least for this train nerd.

    https://github.com/anisotropi4/kingfisher/blob/main/station.md

    It’s not every station. They’ve forgotten the Chase line at least.
    Which ones? I can find the Rugeleys, Bloxwich and Cannock?
    I couldn’t find Cannock or Hednesford. I thought I must be overlooking Cannock until I realised Hednesford was missing too.
    They're all on there:
    https://github.com/anisotropi4/kingfisher/blob/main/image/C/CAO-rail.png
    https://github.com/anisotropi4/kingfisher/blob/main/image/H/HNF-rail.png

    Hmmm. I wonder if the issue is the Github interface: the one you and @Foxy are reporting missing are all in the right-hand of the two columns. What device are you viewing it on?
    It’s an iPhone, so it must be cutting off the right hand column. I’ll try it again on the iPad and that should cure it. Thanks!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    Because most of the country thinks it has turned out shit?

    They want to flush that great Brexit turd.
    You see youre obsessed.

    Why not just chill out and come to terms with it.
    So if Lab wins the next election the country should just call it a day and say well that's that done with and settle down to a Lab govt for the next 50 years.

    Is that how you are saying democracy should operate.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193
    edited January 3

    Nigelb said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Our experiences judge our mood. I have been in East Surrey hospital keeping an eye on a 94 yr old father in law who was on a trolley (along with about 40.others in corridors) from 10 am.Monday till 5pm yesterday when he had an endoscopy. At least he is now in a bed being properly cared for. God alone knows what it will be like going forward with junior doctors on strike. Here at least the law must be changed to stop health staff from striking and a national.formula for pay agreed. I was almost in tears for some of the mainly elderly there. There also needs to be an agreement for numbers of doctors and nurses in proportion to.population. it cannot go on like this.

    Direct your ire at number 10 where it belongs. This is a direct result of 13 years of Conservative government. If you want change you know what to do.
    What ?

    SKS is no different than Sunak.
    Not that old cchq bunker spin again. Last refuge.

    No they are not the same. Did you see the waiting list chart over successive Labour and Tory governments? A very stark difference. If you care about NHS waiting lists you know what to do.
    Alanbrooke appears to be in denial on all fronts this morning.

    As for Starmer, I'm reasonably sure he'll find ways to mess up entirely different from the current shower. But I will reserve judgment until he's actually been running the government.
    Great Nige can we go on to why Joe Biden shouldnt be POTUS ?
    Feel free to have a crack at it.
    I'll continue shooting you down.

    Al.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,920

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    Because most of the country thinks it has turned out shit?

    They want to flush that great Brexit turd.
    You see youre obsessed.

    Why not just chill out and come to terms with it.
    I am fine with it, Brexit has benefitted me personally, see my post at 7.47 which shows where the country is.
    But Brexit was of greatest benefit to spivs, chancers and tax dodgers... That was why we needed to "Take Back Control", wasn't it? Being in the EU meant we had somebody looking over our shoulder and telling us to clean up our water.....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730
    Nigelb said:

    19 years ago today, the Russian foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, said it would be absolutely fine for Ukraine to join NATO
    https://twitter.com/anneapplebaum/status/1742270519972421750

    #Putin said similar in 2002: “I am absolutely convinced that #Ukraine will not shy away from processes of expanding interaction with #NATO and Western allies as a whole. Ukraine has its own relations with NATO... At end of day the decision is to be taken by NATO and Ukraine.”
    https://twitter.com/steven_pifer/status/1742389514352656655

    What changed is that the Ukrainian people kicked out his puppets.

    The Iraq war probably didn’t help. Russia had significant interests in the region (still does, for that matter) that the US trampled on in the invasion. It did rather annoy Putin.

    Other things changed too. In 2002 Russia was allied to NATO over the Afghan invasion and considered an ally in the ‘war on terror.’ That has to put it mildly changed somewhat.

    But it’s also possible they said that knowing the Russian puppets would never sign up, so they could make the right noises and not actually have to follow through.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,963
    Fun to see how yesterday's "lets just lie about migration people are stupid" exercise has gone down.

    This is the Tories basic problem - they're shit at governing. They can't actually achieve any of their stated goals, so now they're into barefaced lies. Remember how Sunak would wield the Sword of Truth?

    I expect this will ramp up as we move through the next months and gear up for the election. Another "aren't things brilliant" line from a Tory, followed by "no" by the public, then "look, culture war issue!!!" from GBeebies et al.

    If you are a Tory, what do you do? You can't lie - people no longer swallow them as their lived experience disagrees with the lie. You can't say "Labour have no plan / would be worse" as people just laugh. At you. You can't try and get people excited by easter eggs as even your local paper mocks you. Even Twitter corrects the PM.

    If - as clearly is the case - you have given up governing the country, do what @AverageNinja did yesterday - resign.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    TOPPING said:

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    Because most of the country thinks it has turned out shit?

    They want to flush that great Brexit turd.
    You see youre obsessed.

    Why not just chill out and come to terms with it.
    So if Lab wins the next election the country should just call it a day and say well that's that done with and settle down to a Lab govt for the next 50 years.

    Is that how you are saying democracy should operate.
    Youre mixing up a referndum with a parliamentary election. I'd say give it a generation same as Indyref.

  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,352
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Way off-topic:

    Someone has done a passenger flow map for every railway station in the UK. The results are quite fascinating - at least for this train nerd.

    https://github.com/anisotropi4/kingfisher/blob/main/station.md

    It’s not every station. They’ve forgotten the Chase line at least.
    Leicester and Melton Mowbray are missing too, though the map of Market Harborough is quite beautiful.
    There is a right hand column. All there afaict.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,705

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Our experiences judge our mood. I have been in East Surrey hospital keeping an eye on a 94 yr old father in law who was on a trolley (along with about 40.others in corridors) from 10 am.Monday till 5pm yesterday when he had an endoscopy. At least he is now in a bed being properly cared for. God alone knows what it will be like going forward with junior doctors on strike. Here at least the law must be changed to stop health staff from striking and a national.formula for pay agreed. I was almost in tears for some of the mainly elderly there. There also needs to be an agreement for numbers of doctors and nurses in proportion to.population. it cannot go on like this.

    Direct your ire at number 10 where it belongs. This is a direct result of 13 years of Conservative government. If you want change you know what to do.
    What ?

    SKS is no different than Sunak.
    Not that old cchq bunker spin again. Last refuge.

    No they are not the same. Did you see the waiting list chart over successive Labour and Tory governments? A very stark difference. If you care about NHS waiting lists you know what to do.
    Well J lets hope youre right, but I honestly cant see it.
    It’s pretty clear that this government has now failed. Fortunately we live in a democracy and have a viable alternative. We need fresh ideas and new minds on the problem Something to feel good about and not take for granted these days.
    Starmer doesnt have any fresh ideas. Just the same old ones.
    We’ll see. That’s the important thing. Definitely time to try something else 🤞
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,961
    Fuck me, satire and irony are dead.

    The Israeli government thinking an African country might be a dumping ground for forcibly displaced people is just the darkest historical irony

    “The Times of Israel’s Hebrew sister-site Zman Yisrael reports that Israeli officials have held clandestine talks with the African nation of Congo and several others for the potential acceptance of Gaza emigrants.”

    https://twitter.com/glcarlstrom/status/1742455077489492360
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,963
    TOPPING said:

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    Because most of the country thinks it has turned out shit?

    They want to flush that great Brexit turd.
    You see youre obsessed.

    Why not just chill out and come to terms with it.
    So if Lab wins the next election the country should just call it a day and say well that's that done with and settle down to a Lab govt for the next 50 years.

    Is that how you are saying democracy should operate.
    That has been the Brexiteer cry since the referendum. Demanding sovereignty. Until the sovereign parliament doesn't do what they want because people didn't vote how they did. Then its How Dare These MPs.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    ClippP said:

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    Because most of the country thinks it has turned out shit?

    They want to flush that great Brexit turd.
    You see youre obsessed.

    Why not just chill out and come to terms with it.
    I am fine with it, Brexit has benefitted me personally, see my post at 7.47 which shows where the country is.
    But Brexit was of greatest benefit to spivs, chancers and tax dodgers... That was why we needed to "Take Back Control", wasn't it? Being in the EU meant we had somebody looking over our shoulder and telling us to clean up our water.....
    yes we had someone looking over our shoulder for 50 years and still didnt clean up.

    but there were huge dividends.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Way off-topic:

    Someone has done a passenger flow map for every railway station in the UK. The results are quite fascinating - at least for this train nerd.

    https://github.com/anisotropi4/kingfisher/blob/main/station.md

    It’s not every station. They’ve forgotten the Chase line at least.
    Leicester and Melton Mowbray are missing too, though the map of Market Harborough is quite beautiful.
    ???

    https://github.com/anisotropi4/kingfisher/blob/main/image/L/LEI-rail.png
    https://github.com/anisotropi4/kingfisher/blob/main/image/M/MMO-rail.png
    They don't appear in the alphabetic list that you linked to.
    They do appear - there are two columns. Works on Windows/Chrome and my Samsung phone...
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    Fuck me, satire and irony are dead.

    The Israeli government thinking an African country might be a dumping ground for forcibly displaced people is just the darkest historical irony

    “The Times of Israel’s Hebrew sister-site Zman Yisrael reports that Israeli officials have held clandestine talks with the African nation of Congo and several others for the potential acceptance of Gaza emigrants.”

    https://twitter.com/glcarlstrom/status/1742455077489492360

    The irony was Hamas calling the assassination yesterday cowardly. I mean that bloke was on the front line in Gaza you know,
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    TOPPING said:

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    Because most of the country thinks it has turned out shit?

    They want to flush that great Brexit turd.
    You see youre obsessed.

    Why not just chill out and come to terms with it.
    So if Lab wins the next election the country should just call it a day and say well that's that done with and settle down to a Lab govt for the next 50 years.

    Is that how you are saying democracy should operate.
    That has been the Brexiteer cry since the referendum. Demanding sovereignty. Until the sovereign parliament doesn't do what they want because people didn't vote how they did. Then its How Dare These MPs.
    Are you getting worried you might get elected ?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156

    TOPPING said:

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    Because most of the country thinks it has turned out shit?

    They want to flush that great Brexit turd.
    You see youre obsessed.

    Why not just chill out and come to terms with it.
    So if Lab wins the next election the country should just call it a day and say well that's that done with and settle down to a Lab govt for the next 50 years.

    Is that how you are saying democracy should operate.
    Youre mixing up a referndum with a parliamentary election. I'd say give it a generation same as Indyref.

    The referendum was to leave the EU. Fairly obviously exactly how we leave the EU and how we replace our links with our major trading partners can't be just left alone for a generation to keep a few moaning leavers happy. So of course the debate about how we Brexit evolves and develops.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046

    TOPPING said:

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    Because most of the country thinks it has turned out shit?

    They want to flush that great Brexit turd.
    You see youre obsessed.

    Why not just chill out and come to terms with it.
    So if Lab wins the next election the country should just call it a day and say well that's that done with and settle down to a Lab govt for the next 50 years.

    Is that how you are saying democracy should operate.
    Youre mixing up a referndum with a parliamentary election. I'd say give it a generation same as Indyref.

    You'd say, would you? Good to know. Meanwhile taking back control surely means nothing unless it means giving the people the opportunity to vote in line with their beliefs. A "generation" is just wishful thinking.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    Because most of the country thinks it has turned out shit?

    They want to flush that great Brexit turd.
    You see youre obsessed.

    Why not just chill out and come to terms with it.
    So if Lab wins the next election the country should just call it a day and say well that's that done with and settle down to a Lab govt for the next 50 years.

    Is that how you are saying democracy should operate.
    Youre mixing up a referndum with a parliamentary election. I'd say give it a generation same as Indyref.

    You'd say, would you? Good to know. Meanwhile taking back control surely means nothing unless it means giving the people the opportunity to vote in line with their beliefs. A "generation" is just wishful thinking.
    Who's stopping you voting in line with your beliefs ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    19 years ago today, the Russian foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, said it would be absolutely fine for Ukraine to join NATO
    https://twitter.com/anneapplebaum/status/1742270519972421750

    #Putin said similar in 2002: “I am absolutely convinced that #Ukraine will not shy away from processes of expanding interaction with #NATO and Western allies as a whole. Ukraine has its own relations with NATO... At end of day the decision is to be taken by NATO and Ukraine.”
    https://twitter.com/steven_pifer/status/1742389514352656655

    What changed is that the Ukrainian people kicked out his puppets.

    The Iraq war probably didn’t help. Russia had significant interests in the region (still does, for that matter) that the US trampled on in the invasion. It did rather annoy Putin.

    Other things changed too. In 2002 Russia was allied to NATO over the Afghan invasion and considered an ally in the ‘war on terror.’ That has to put it mildly changed somewhat.

    But it’s also possible they said that knowing the Russian puppets would never sign up, so they could make the right noises and not actually have to follow through.
    No, this is what precipitated everything, I think.

    Ukraine's EU trade deal will be catastrophic, says Russia
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/22/ukraine-european-union-trade-russia
    ..Petro Poroshenko, Ukraine's former trade minister, gave Sergei Glazyev, adviser to President Vladimir Putin, a public dressing down in a discussion session during which the Kremlin man was faced with jeering and catcalls for demanding that Ukraine abandon the EU pact and turn to Russia. The minister said that it was the Kremlin's heavy-handed tactics and threats of a trade war that had made European integration inevitable.

    "For the first time in our history more than 50% of people support European integration, and less than 30% of the people support closer ties with Russia," said Poroshenko. "Thank you very much for that Mr Glazyev."..

    .."We don't want to use any kind of blackmail. This is a question for the Ukrainian people," said Glazyev. "But legally, signing this agreement about association with EU, the Ukrainian government violates the treaty on strategic partnership and friendship with Russia." When this happened, he said, Russia could no longer guarantee Ukraine's status as a state and could possibly intervene if pro-Russian regions of the country appealed directly to Moscow...


    "I don't want to blackmail you, but..."
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    edited January 3

    TOPPING said:

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    Because most of the country thinks it has turned out shit?

    They want to flush that great Brexit turd.
    You see youre obsessed.

    Why not just chill out and come to terms with it.
    So if Lab wins the next election the country should just call it a day and say well that's that done with and settle down to a Lab govt for the next 50 years.

    Is that how you are saying democracy should operate.
    That has been the Brexiteer cry since the referendum. Demanding sovereignty. Until the sovereign parliament doesn't do what they want because people didn't vote how they did. Then its How Dare These MPs.
    The biggest pile of bollocks is that MPs campaigning to stop the vote from being enacted was undemocratic.

    Which is wrong of course because in 2017 MPs were voted in by their constituents to voice their opinions in parliament and at that point there was no majority for a "clean Brexit" whatever that is. So all the obfuscation was a feature of democracy, not a bug and was ordered by the British people.

    Until they got fed up with it of course and decided to get Brexit done after all. Again, by voting in a parliament to do this.

    But some people really don't like democracy, we have seen.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193

    Fuck me, satire and irony are dead.

    The Israeli government thinking an African country might be a dumping ground for forcibly displaced people is just the darkest historical irony

    “The Times of Israel’s Hebrew sister-site Zman Yisrael reports that Israeli officials have held clandestine talks with the African nation of Congo and several others for the potential acceptance of Gaza emigrants.”

    https://twitter.com/glcarlstrom/status/1742455077489492360

    US rebukes ‘irresponsible’ comments from Israeli ministers
    https://thehill.com/policy/international/4385605-us-rebukes-irresponsible-comments-from-israeli-ministers/

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    The Recall of MPs act 2015 has worked well.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    Because most of the country thinks it has turned out shit?

    They want to flush that great Brexit turd.
    You see youre obsessed.

    Why not just chill out and come to terms with it.
    So if Lab wins the next election the country should just call it a day and say well that's that done with and settle down to a Lab govt for the next 50 years.

    Is that how you are saying democracy should operate.
    Youre mixing up a referndum with a parliamentary election. I'd say give it a generation same as Indyref.

    You'd say, would you? Good to know. Meanwhile taking back control surely means nothing unless it means giving the people the opportunity to vote in line with their beliefs. A "generation" is just wishful thinking.
    Who's stopping you voting in line with your beliefs ?
    No one. That is my point. In 2017 people voted in line with their beliefs and had there been a second referendum, apart from being impractical and an administrative nightmare, it would have been a perfect example of democracy in action.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193

    TOPPING said:

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    Because most of the country thinks it has turned out shit?

    They want to flush that great Brexit turd.
    You see youre obsessed.

    Why not just chill out and come to terms with it.
    So if Lab wins the next election the country should just call it a day and say well that's that done with and settle down to a Lab govt for the next 50 years.

    Is that how you are saying democracy should operate.
    Youre mixing up a referndum with a parliamentary election. I'd say give it a generation same as Indyref.

    No doubt.
    But as you point out to Topping, we live in a democracy, so we're free to mix up what we like when deciding how to vote.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,961

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Jesus, even the Lib Dems have jumped on the darts bandwagon.



    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1742310316484997409/photo/1
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    19 years ago today, the Russian foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, said it would be absolutely fine for Ukraine to join NATO
    https://twitter.com/anneapplebaum/status/1742270519972421750

    #Putin said similar in 2002: “I am absolutely convinced that #Ukraine will not shy away from processes of expanding interaction with #NATO and Western allies as a whole. Ukraine has its own relations with NATO... At end of day the decision is to be taken by NATO and Ukraine.”
    https://twitter.com/steven_pifer/status/1742389514352656655

    What changed is that the Ukrainian people kicked out his puppets.

    The Iraq war probably didn’t help. Russia had significant interests in the region (still does, for that matter) that the US trampled on in the invasion. It did rather annoy Putin.

    Other things changed too. In 2002 Russia was allied to NATO over the Afghan invasion and considered an ally in the ‘war on terror.’ That has to put it mildly changed somewhat.

    But it’s also possible they said that knowing the Russian puppets would never sign up, so they could make the right noises and not actually have to follow through.
    No, this is what precipitated everything, I think.

    Ukraine's EU trade deal will be catastrophic, says Russia
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/22/ukraine-european-union-trade-russia
    ..Petro Poroshenko, Ukraine's former trade minister, gave Sergei Glazyev, adviser to President Vladimir Putin, a public dressing down in a discussion session during which the Kremlin man was faced with jeering and catcalls for demanding that Ukraine abandon the EU pact and turn to Russia. The minister said that it was the Kremlin's heavy-handed tactics and threats of a trade war that had made European integration inevitable.

    "For the first time in our history more than 50% of people support European integration, and less than 30% of the people support closer ties with Russia," said Poroshenko. "Thank you very much for that Mr Glazyev."..

    .."We don't want to use any kind of blackmail. This is a question for the Ukrainian people," said Glazyev. "But legally, signing this agreement about association with EU, the Ukrainian government violates the treaty on strategic partnership and friendship with Russia." When this happened, he said, Russia could no longer guarantee Ukraine's status as a state and could possibly intervene if pro-Russian regions of the country appealed directly to Moscow...


    "I don't want to blackmail you, but..."
    That didn’t precipitate anything. They had already rigged the 2003 elections and when that didn’t quite work because of the courts ordering a rerun, tried to murder the opposition leader (fortunately for him the assassins concerned were almost as useless as those idiots Mishkin and Chepiga).
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Jesus, even the Lib Dems have jumped on the darts bandwagon.



    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1742310316484997409/photo/1
    The whole country is not gripped by darts fever. I know @kinabalu is a big fan but I am not and therefore I cancel out his vote. And not for the first time.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    Because most of the country thinks it has turned out shit?

    They want to flush that great Brexit turd.
    You see youre obsessed.

    Why not just chill out and come to terms with it.
    So if Lab wins the next election the country should just call it a day and say well that's that done with and settle down to a Lab govt for the next 50 years.

    Is that how you are saying democracy should operate.
    Youre mixing up a referndum with a parliamentary election. I'd say give it a generation same as Indyref.

    No doubt.
    But as you point out to Topping, we live in a democracy, so we're free to mix up what we like when deciding how to vote.
    Of course you are and you can vote LibDem if you want to go back in. But as I have pointed out once you start totting up the costs of re-entry the numbers will change drastically.

    And talking of numbers I have set aside today to do a tax return. So have fun.
  • Pulpstar said:

    The Recall of MPs act 2015 has worked well.

    Kind of, although the real proof it was working well would be that MPs weren't being recalled (or resigning in the face of recall).

    Much like a good traffic enforcement camera is one that results in a lot of fines being issued, but a great one is one that results in no fines being issued, because it ends the activity it's targeting.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,590

    Foxy said:

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Can anyone explain why half the country is still obsessed with a vote 8 years ago ?
    Because most of the country thinks it has turned out shit?

    They want to flush that great Brexit turd.
    You see youre obsessed.

    Why not just chill out and come to terms with it.
    I am fine with it, Brexit has benefitted me personally, see my post at 7.47 which shows where the country is.
    LOL, I have many friends in your position, they all claim they are doing well out of Brexit even though they voted Remain. But theyre still having a sulk because they called it wrong.
    That's one of the great paradoxes of Brexit. The dynamic metropolises of Remania have economically adjusted, the backwaters of Leaverstan further degrade.
    Real wages are actually growing and we have nearly full employment. The doom laden scenarios are nowhere to be seen. Manufacturing has even improved its position by overtaking France. Most of the UKs weaknesses are self inflicted and could have been sorted out in the EU, but none of the UK parties wanted to tackle them.
    Really - I know the wages of no member of my family (either immediate or second level) have increased by above inflation.

    And looking at the very large dataset I have for other people - nope I don’t see it, except at the very bottom of the market where I can see another large pay rise coming in April because the agencies legally need to pay it
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,961
    TOPPING said:

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Jesus, even the Lib Dems have jumped on the darts bandwagon.



    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1742310316484997409/photo/1
    The whole country is not gripped by darts fever. I know @kinabalu is a big fan but I am not and therefore I cancel out his vote. And not for the first time.
    I too am immune to the 'charms' of darts, like all true sports fans.

    Liverpool with an XG of 7 the other night, or the 2019 cricket world cup final, that's sport at its utter magnificent best.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156
    TOPPING said:

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Jesus, even the Lib Dems have jumped on the darts bandwagon.



    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1742310316484997409/photo/1
    The whole country is not gripped by darts fever. I know @kinabalu is a big fan but I am not and therefore I cancel out his vote. And not for the first time.
    Sounds like you have checked out but most of the country has become a madhouse, watching round the clock hoping to see some leg and lipstick before a champagne finish.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046

    TOPPING said:

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Jesus, even the Lib Dems have jumped on the darts bandwagon.



    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1742310316484997409/photo/1
    The whole country is not gripped by darts fever. I know @kinabalu is a big fan but I am not and therefore I cancel out his vote. And not for the first time.
    I too am immune to the 'charms' of darts, like all true sports fans.

    Liverpool with an XG of 7 the other night, or the 2019 cricket world cup final, that's sport at its utter magnificent best.
    I mean yes. Take out the cricket and you have a point.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Jesus, even the Lib Dems have jumped on the darts bandwagon.



    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1742310316484997409/photo/1
    They've hit the bullseye there, tbf.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,168
    edited January 3
    TOPPING said:

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Jesus, even the Lib Dems have jumped on the darts bandwagon.



    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1742310316484997409/photo/1
    The whole country is not gripped by darts fever. I know @kinabalu is a big fan but I am not and therefore I cancel out his vote. And not for the first time.
    I'm afraid that anyone who isn't gripped by darts fever hates Britain and our values.

    If a chubby teenager lobbing arrows in front of baying crowds of boozers in such a way that puts the Dutch right back in their box, doesn't stir your blood and stiffen your patriotic sinews, then you might as well just eff off.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127

    Can anybody explain why PB and the country seem obsessed with a pub game at this time of the year?

    Why not shove ha'penny or Scottish football if we're obsessing about pub games/pub leagues?

    Jesus, even the Lib Dems have jumped on the darts bandwagon.



    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1742310316484997409/photo/1
    They've hit the bullseye there, tbf.
    Certainly a pointed contribution.
This discussion has been closed.