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OFSTED’S report – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,160
edited January 1 in General
OFSTED’S report – politicalbetting.com

Today marks the last day in office de facto of Amanda Spielman, who has been the longest serving  Chief Inspector of Schools since Ofsted’s foundation in 1992. She is to be replaced by Sir Martin Oliver, who has a formidable in tray to cope with. Let us consider the problems that face him:

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.
  • Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    Put the special sauce down
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Cracking article, ydoethur (so that's how it's pronounced). No doubt some will complain of its length.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    OFSTED sounds as bad as the Post Office.

    Good piece from ‘the doctor’.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    A voucher based system means the DfE is even more important to stop charlatan schools ripping off the taxpayer to siphon away cash.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,494
    edited December 2023

    Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    Bottom line up front is Parenting, and interest parents have in their sprogs getting a good education, plays a huge part in a child’s education. So would your reforms TSE fall foul of same status quo, where some parents have interest and others don’t?

    Or it will end in tiers.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,259
    5/10

    Could do better


    Only joking!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,802
    And yet, for all these disasters, England continues to outpace both Scotland and Wales on the PISA measurements, widening attainment gaps in Science, reading and Maths. Although the absolute scores were down, probably due to Covid effects, the relative performance improved and not just with the rest of the UK but internationally.

    Why is this, given the apparent shambles in English regulation over the last decade? I think that the answer is that, for all its faults, the English system does actually try to do something about failing schools whilst in Scotland and Wales they are allowed to carry on, failing generation after generation of children.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    Blimey, I looked at the header and thought 'that's too long for a header' but ploughed into it and learnt quite a bit, which is what the best headers do, so thank you @ydoethur!

    Question: if not Ofsted, what? Back to Local Authority Inspectors?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    edited December 2023
    Sandpit said:

    OFSTED sounds as bad as the Post Office.

    Good piece from ‘the doctor’.

    And funnily enough, Keegan’s husband was head of Fujitsu UK during the worst of that scandal…..
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653

    Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    If only there was a Conservative government that could implement that, eh?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,494
    DavidL said:

    And yet, for all these disasters, England continues to outpace both Scotland and Wales on the PISA measurements, widening attainment gaps in Science, reading and Maths. Although the absolute scores were down, probably due to Covid effects, the relative performance improved and not just with the rest of the UK but internationally.

    Why is this, given the apparent shambles in English regulation over the last decade? I think that the answer is that, for all its faults, the English system does actually try to do something about failing schools whilst in Scotland and Wales they are allowed to carry on, failing generation after generation of children.

    I understand this government has taken us upward in the recently published World Rankings. 😌

    We could probably learn from those countries still above us in the world rankings.
  • Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    You jest, but that in part has already happened with academies etc which in part is why the education system is coping as well as it is in my view despite the DfE and despite Ofsted and despite the poor level of funding.

    We should also encourage and enable more parents to drive their kids to school too. End the postcode lottery of having to go to crap schools that are in walking distance, if a better school is a drive away, then choose that one instead.
  • Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    If only there was a Conservative government that could implement that, eh?
    Boris Johnson led a lefty government, implementing so much of Michael Foot's 1983 manifesto.
  • Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    Imagine what you'd be like if you drank.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653

    Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    You jest, but that in part has already happened with academies etc which in part is why the education system is coping as well as it is in my view despite the DfE and despite Ofsted and despite the poor level of funding.

    We should also encourage and enable more parents to drive their kids to school too. End the postcode lottery of having to go to crap schools that are in walking distance, if a better school is a drive away, then choose that one instead.
    FFS that is so disconnected from the reality of many parents who may not have a car, or need their car to get to work, or both work full-time so don't have time to ferry their kids to school, or can't afford the fuel and mileage.

    To say nothing on the effect on roads, rush-hour, the environment, children's health,...

    It's already bad enough with the middle-class yummy-mummies in their 4x4 driving from one end of the village to save Johnny having to walk to school at the other end.

    Rant over. You're welcome.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653

    Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    If only there was a Conservative government that could implement that, eh?
    Boris Johnson led a lefty government, implementing so much of Michael Foot's 1983 manifesto.
    Well, you voted for him.
  • DavidL said:

    And yet, for all these disasters, England continues to outpace both Scotland and Wales on the PISA measurements, widening attainment gaps in Science, reading and Maths. Although the absolute scores were down, probably due to Covid effects, the relative performance improved and not just with the rest of the UK but internationally.

    Why is this, given the apparent shambles in English regulation over the last decade? I think that the answer is that, for all its faults, the English system does actually try to do something about failing schools whilst in Scotland and Wales they are allowed to carry on, failing generation after generation of children.

    Perhaps because despite the atrocious failure of the DFE and OFSTED etc, parents have a significant role to play in choosing schools now and we have a quasi-voucher system that exists.

    Not every parents value education and some will see education as glorified childcare and dump their sprogs in the closest or most convenient school available to them.

    But many good parents will pay significant attention to which school they want to go to, and many good parents will be willing quite rightly to drive their kids to a better school than one they can walk to - something many in society dislike and some want to discourage, rather than encourage and reward.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,259
    I'm trying to do a proper day's work, sending a trillion emails, and most of them bounce back saying "Oh, I'm out of the office until January 8th"

    JANUARY THE FUCKING 8TH

    No wonder this country is in the khazi

    By January 8th it will be too late and I'll be by a pool in the tropics

    GET BACK TO FUCKING WORK
  • Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    If only there was a Conservative government that could implement that, eh?
    Boris Johnson led a lefty government, implementing so much of Michael Foot's 1983 manifesto.
    Well, you voted for him.
    I didn’t. I was on Team Hunt who I had tipped at 100/1 to be Theresa May’s successor.
  • Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    Imagine what you'd be like if you drank.
    Even more modest and shy?
  • Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    You jest, but that in part has already happened with academies etc which in part is why the education system is coping as well as it is in my view despite the DfE and despite Ofsted and despite the poor level of funding.

    We should also encourage and enable more parents to drive their kids to school too. End the postcode lottery of having to go to crap schools that are in walking distance, if a better school is a drive away, then choose that one instead.
    FFS that is so disconnected from the reality of many parents who may not have a car, or need their car to get to work, or both work full-time so don't have time to ferry their kids to school, or can't afford the fuel and mileage.

    To say nothing on the effect on roads, rush-hour, the environment, children's health,...

    It's already bad enough with the middle-class yummy-mummies in their 4x4 driving from one end of the village to save Johnny having to walk to school at the other end.

    Rant over. You're welcome.
    Its a shame if parents can't afford a car or fuel, which is why we should seek to make cars and their fuel (ideally electricity in the future) as cheap as possible so that there is as little a barrier as possible to private transportation.

    Yes people do need to go to work, but most schools in my experience offer before and after school clubs. I drive my kids and drop them off at club if I can't drop them off at the school gate.

    As for those yummy-mummies driving their kids to school - good on them! They should be praised for taking an interest in their kids education. 👏👏👏
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,259
    Leon said:

    I'm trying to do a proper day's work, sending a trillion emails, and most of them bounce back saying "Oh, I'm out of the office until January 8th"

    JANUARY THE FUCKING 8TH

    No wonder this country is in the khazi

    By January 8th it will be too late and I'll be by a pool in the tropics

    GET BACK TO FUCKING WORK

    Somebody acually flagged this, when I am trying to make positive suggestions to solve Britain's productivity problem
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I'm trying to do a proper day's work, sending a trillion emails, and most of them bounce back saying "Oh, I'm out of the office until January 8th"

    JANUARY THE FUCKING 8TH

    No wonder this country is in the khazi

    By January 8th it will be too late and I'll be by a pool in the tropics

    GET BACK TO FUCKING WORK

    Somebody acually flagged this, when I am trying to make positive suggestions to solve Britain's productivity problem
    How about you go to the tropics during the holiday period, rather than bemoan people taking holidays during the holidays?

    That might be more productive? 🤔
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,259

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I'm trying to do a proper day's work, sending a trillion emails, and most of them bounce back saying "Oh, I'm out of the office until January 8th"

    JANUARY THE FUCKING 8TH

    No wonder this country is in the khazi

    By January 8th it will be too late and I'll be by a pool in the tropics

    GET BACK TO FUCKING WORK

    Somebody acually flagged this, when I am trying to make positive suggestions to solve Britain's productivity problem
    How about you go to the tropics during the holiday period, rather than bemoan people taking holidays during the holidays?

    That might be more productive? 🤔
    Because I'm not going on holiday?

    The Gazette are sending me abroad to review stuff
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    edited December 2023
    O/T already (apols to ydoethur)

    On the previous thread I idly wondered what developments might aid Sunak in 2024. This analysis from the Graun doesn't provide much hope.

    Look at the average mortgage costs chart in particular. Sunak's f*cked.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/29/five-charts-explaining-the-uks-economic-prospects-in-2024
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653

    Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    If only there was a Conservative government that could implement that, eh?
    Boris Johnson led a lefty government, implementing so much of Michael Foot's 1983 manifesto.
    Well, you voted for him.
    I didn’t. I was on Team Hunt who I had tipped at 100/1 to be Theresa May’s successor.
    GE 2019?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653

    Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    You jest, but that in part has already happened with academies etc which in part is why the education system is coping as well as it is in my view despite the DfE and despite Ofsted and despite the poor level of funding.

    We should also encourage and enable more parents to drive their kids to school too. End the postcode lottery of having to go to crap schools that are in walking distance, if a better school is a drive away, then choose that one instead.
    FFS that is so disconnected from the reality of many parents who may not have a car, or need their car to get to work, or both work full-time so don't have time to ferry their kids to school, or can't afford the fuel and mileage.

    To say nothing on the effect on roads, rush-hour, the environment, children's health,...

    It's already bad enough with the middle-class yummy-mummies in their 4x4 driving from one end of the village to save Johnny having to walk to school at the other end.

    Rant over. You're welcome.
    Its a shame if parents can't afford a car or fuel, which is why we should seek to make cars and their fuel (ideally electricity in the future) as cheap as possible so that there is as little a barrier as possible to private transportation.

    Yes people do need to go to work, but most schools in my experience offer before and after school clubs. I drive my kids and drop them off at club if I can't drop them off at the school gate.

    As for those yummy-mummies driving their kids to school - good on them! They should be praised for taking an interest in their kids education. 👏👏👏
    Nice trolling!
  • O/T already (apols to ydoethur)

    On the previous thread I idly wondered what developments might aid Sunak in 2024. This analysis from the Graun doesn't provide much hope.

    Look at the average mortgage costs chart in particular.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/29/five-charts-explaining-the-uks-economic-prospects-in-2024

    No great joy in the economy for Rishi in 2024!

    So time for Rishi to crack on with the election at 2 May, no point waiting til Oct
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I'm trying to do a proper day's work, sending a trillion emails, and most of them bounce back saying "Oh, I'm out of the office until January 8th"

    JANUARY THE FUCKING 8TH

    No wonder this country is in the khazi

    By January 8th it will be too late and I'll be by a pool in the tropics

    GET BACK TO FUCKING WORK

    Somebody acually flagged this, when I am trying to make positive suggestions to solve Britain's productivity problem
    How about you go to the tropics during the holiday period, rather than bemoan people taking holidays during the holidays?

    That might be more productive? 🤔
    Because I'm not going on holiday?

    The Gazette are sending me abroad to review stuff
    Aww, its a hard life I suppose.

    But most people are on holiday at the moment. Its very productive to take holiday leave between Christmas and New Year as next to nothing happens now, and if everyone you're corresponding with is away you're more productive taking now as a time to be away too.

    If you get Bank Holidays off its a productive use of your holiday entitlement too as you can get a decent break with only a few days of leave used since there's three Bank Holidays over this period.

    So tiny violin for you if people are corresponding with are on holiday during the holiday period. You should have planned for that and sent your emails sooner, or later, if they're important.

    I'm off until 8th January too. Taken two weeks leave, Christmas Week and New Years week, so that means a return to work on the 8th. Perfectly reasonable.
  • Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    You jest, but that in part has already happened with academies etc which in part is why the education system is coping as well as it is in my view despite the DfE and despite Ofsted and despite the poor level of funding.

    We should also encourage and enable more parents to drive their kids to school too. End the postcode lottery of having to go to crap schools that are in walking distance, if a better school is a drive away, then choose that one instead.
    FFS that is so disconnected from the reality of many parents who may not have a car, or need their car to get to work, or both work full-time so don't have time to ferry their kids to school, or can't afford the fuel and mileage.

    To say nothing on the effect on roads, rush-hour, the environment, children's health,...

    It's already bad enough with the middle-class yummy-mummies in their 4x4 driving from one end of the village to save Johnny having to walk to school at the other end.

    Rant over. You're welcome.
    Its a shame if parents can't afford a car or fuel, which is why we should seek to make cars and their fuel (ideally electricity in the future) as cheap as possible so that there is as little a barrier as possible to private transportation.

    Yes people do need to go to work, but most schools in my experience offer before and after school clubs. I drive my kids and drop them off at club if I can't drop them off at the school gate.

    As for those yummy-mummies driving their kids to school - good on them! They should be praised for taking an interest in their kids education. 👏👏👏
    Nice trolling!
    Deadly serious.

    I could walk my kids to the school next to my estate, but its not got a good reputation and I value my kids education more than I value the cost of fuel. So I drive much further to drive them into a better school (still a state school btw).

    I have more respect for parents who value their children's education and drive them to school than I do parents who view education as no more than childcare and dump them without thinking about it at the nearest drop-off point.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,802

    DavidL said:

    And yet, for all these disasters, England continues to outpace both Scotland and Wales on the PISA measurements, widening attainment gaps in Science, reading and Maths. Although the absolute scores were down, probably due to Covid effects, the relative performance improved and not just with the rest of the UK but internationally.

    Why is this, given the apparent shambles in English regulation over the last decade? I think that the answer is that, for all its faults, the English system does actually try to do something about failing schools whilst in Scotland and Wales they are allowed to carry on, failing generation after generation of children.

    I understand this government has taken us upward in the recently published World Rankings. 😌

    We could probably learn from those countries still above us in the world rankings.
    For sure. But one of the things that Scotland shows (I have little knowledge of Wales) is that a very light touch, with some schools not being inspected for a decade or more, does not work either. My quick researches suggest that the majority of secondary schools in Dundee have not been inspected in the last 5 years.
  • Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    If only there was a Conservative government that could implement that, eh?
    Boris Johnson led a lefty government, implementing so much of Michael Foot's 1983 manifesto.
    Well, you voted for him.
    I didn’t. I was on Team Hunt who I had tipped at 100/1 to be Theresa May’s successor.
    GE 2019?
    I voted Lib Dem, I live in a Lib/Lab marginal and the Labour candidate was a Corbynite.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,109
    Excellent piece from @ydoethur - he knows his onions.

    A thought now from somebody who doesn't: What about replacing Ofsted with something simpler and stripped down?

    It seems 'inspection' might have morphed into something too big for its own boots, self-regrading, too intrusive, too powerful, inflexible yet at the same time trying to do too much.

    So what we do is establish a new inspection body with a new mandate. Stop trying to 'grade' schools in either absolute or relative terms. Just drop all that. Instead go into schools and specifically look for unacceptable things taking place there. If there are some, report this along with the school's plan to fix it. If there aren't, no further comment necessary.

    Kind of similar to the Clean Report vs Qualified Report in Auditing.
  • Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    Imagine what you'd be like if you drank.
    Even more modest and shy?
    You don't strike me as a shy kind of chap.
  • Leon said:

    I'm trying to do a proper day's work, sending a trillion emails, and most of them bounce back saying "Oh, I'm out of the office until January 8th"

    JANUARY THE FUCKING 8TH

    No wonder this country is in the khazi

    By January 8th it will be too late and I'll be by a pool in the tropics

    GET BACK TO FUCKING WORK

    Only losers work the days between Christmas and New Year.

    You need a better job.
  • Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    If only there was a Conservative government that could implement that, eh?
    Boris Johnson led a lefty government, implementing so much of Michael Foot's 1983 manifesto.
    Actually he implemented most of Jeremy Corbyn's 2017 manifesto, which is partly why he won. Andrew Fisher tapped into something that the Tories stole.
  • https://x.com/TimesRadio/status/1740420401874764213

    “If we hadn't had Keir Starmer putting up with Corbyn during all that nonsense…he would not have been elected."

    @DannytheFink
    asks Peter Mandelson if Keir Starmer was wrong to serve in Jeremy Corbyn’s shadow cabinet.

    Peter Mandelson is as usual, correct.
  • Leon said:

    I'm trying to do a proper day's work, sending a trillion emails, and most of them bounce back saying "Oh, I'm out of the office until January 8th"

    JANUARY THE FUCKING 8TH

    No wonder this country is in the khazi

    By January 8th it will be too late and I'll be by a pool in the tropics

    GET BACK TO FUCKING WORK

    Only losers work the days between Christmas and New Year.

    You need a better job.
    I'm returning to work on the 8th having stopped on the 22nd.

    That's 16 days off, having only used 7 days of leave.

    That's quite productive, not unproductive.
  • Leon said:

    I'm trying to do a proper day's work, sending a trillion emails, and most of them bounce back saying "Oh, I'm out of the office until January 8th"

    JANUARY THE FUCKING 8TH

    No wonder this country is in the khazi

    By January 8th it will be too late and I'll be by a pool in the tropics

    GET BACK TO FUCKING WORK

    Only losers work the days between Christmas and New Year.

    You need a better job.
    No it's a great time to work. Spend a few hours tinkering with speadsheets when nobody will bother you and save your precious annual leave for doing something fun when the weather is better.
  • DavidL said:

    And yet, for all these disasters, England continues to outpace both Scotland and Wales on the PISA measurements, widening attainment gaps in Science, reading and Maths. Although the absolute scores were down, probably due to Covid effects, the relative performance improved and not just with the rest of the UK but internationally.

    Why is this, given the apparent shambles in English regulation over the last decade? I think that the answer is that, for all its faults, the English system does actually try to do something about failing schools whilst in Scotland and Wales they are allowed to carry on, failing generation after generation of children.

    In part, some issues about how small and unrepresentative the English sample was;

    But the country’s performance is also likely overinflated.

    Too few students from England took part in the study – meaning the results could be up to eight points too generous, as more higher-performing pupils took part


    https://schoolsweek.co.uk/pisa-2022-rise-in-maths-but-warning-over-inflated-results/
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653

    Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    You jest, but that in part has already happened with academies etc which in part is why the education system is coping as well as it is in my view despite the DfE and despite Ofsted and despite the poor level of funding.

    We should also encourage and enable more parents to drive their kids to school too. End the postcode lottery of having to go to crap schools that are in walking distance, if a better school is a drive away, then choose that one instead.
    FFS that is so disconnected from the reality of many parents who may not have a car, or need their car to get to work, or both work full-time so don't have time to ferry their kids to school, or can't afford the fuel and mileage.

    To say nothing on the effect on roads, rush-hour, the environment, children's health,...

    It's already bad enough with the middle-class yummy-mummies in their 4x4 driving from one end of the village to save Johnny having to walk to school at the other end.

    Rant over. You're welcome.
    Its a shame if parents can't afford a car or fuel, which is why we should seek to make cars and their fuel (ideally electricity in the future) as cheap as possible so that there is as little a barrier as possible to private transportation.

    Yes people do need to go to work, but most schools in my experience offer before and after school clubs. I drive my kids and drop them off at club if I can't drop them off at the school gate.

    As for those yummy-mummies driving their kids to school - good on them! They should be praised for taking an interest in their kids education. 👏👏👏
    Nice trolling!
    Deadly serious.

    I could walk my kids to the school next to my estate, but its not got a good reputation and I value my kids education more than I value the cost of fuel. So I drive much further to drive them into a better school (still a state school btw).

    I have more respect for parents who value their children's education and drive them to school than I do parents who view education as no more than childcare and dump them without thinking about it at the nearest drop-off point.
    Fair enough, but of course it's not the parents you despise who suffer.
  • DavidL said:

    And yet, for all these disasters, England continues to outpace both Scotland and Wales on the PISA measurements, widening attainment gaps in Science, reading and Maths. Although the absolute scores were down, probably due to Covid effects, the relative performance improved and not just with the rest of the UK but internationally.

    Why is this, given the apparent shambles in English regulation over the last decade? I think that the answer is that, for all its faults, the English system does actually try to do something about failing schools whilst in Scotland and Wales they are allowed to carry on, failing generation after generation of children.

    In part, some issues about how small and unrepresentative the English sample was;

    But the country’s performance is also likely overinflated.

    Too few students from England took part in the study – meaning the results could be up to eight points too generous, as more higher-performing pupils took part


    https://schoolsweek.co.uk/pisa-2022-rise-in-maths-but-warning-over-inflated-results/
    I have a very strong suspicion that a lot of countries are playing the PISA system right now.
  • Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    You jest, but that in part has already happened with academies etc which in part is why the education system is coping as well as it is in my view despite the DfE and despite Ofsted and despite the poor level of funding.

    We should also encourage and enable more parents to drive their kids to school too. End the postcode lottery of having to go to crap schools that are in walking distance, if a better school is a drive away, then choose that one instead.
    FFS that is so disconnected from the reality of many parents who may not have a car, or need their car to get to work, or both work full-time so don't have time to ferry their kids to school, or can't afford the fuel and mileage.

    To say nothing on the effect on roads, rush-hour, the environment, children's health,...

    It's already bad enough with the middle-class yummy-mummies in their 4x4 driving from one end of the village to save Johnny having to walk to school at the other end.

    Rant over. You're welcome.
    Its a shame if parents can't afford a car or fuel, which is why we should seek to make cars and their fuel (ideally electricity in the future) as cheap as possible so that there is as little a barrier as possible to private transportation.

    Yes people do need to go to work, but most schools in my experience offer before and after school clubs. I drive my kids and drop them off at club if I can't drop them off at the school gate.

    As for those yummy-mummies driving their kids to school - good on them! They should be praised for taking an interest in their kids education. 👏👏👏
    Nice trolling!
    Deadly serious.

    I could walk my kids to the school next to my estate, but its not got a good reputation and I value my kids education more than I value the cost of fuel. So I drive much further to drive them into a better school (still a state school btw).

    I have more respect for parents who value their children's education and drive them to school than I do parents who view education as no more than childcare and dump them without thinking about it at the nearest drop-off point.
    Fair enough, but of course it's not the parents you despise who suffer.
    Quite right, nobody "suffers".

    And I don't despise anyone, just don't respect them.
  • Outstanding article.
    Thank you.
  • The Tories are going to lose so many council seats in May. These seats were the ones that should have been contested in 2020, but elections were delayed until 2021 because of Covid. The Tories did very well that year, NEV was Con 40%, Lab 30%. A repeat of 2023 would mean an 8 or 9% swing* - shellacking territory.

    Using this as a stepping stone to an autumn election would be a less than ideal strategy for Sunak.

    So, the argument here is that in order to avoid an 8-9% swing against them, and the concomitant shellacking in the May local elections*, they should take a 9-10% swing against them at a general election and hence an even bigger shellacking? I think I can see a problem in that?

    * Not that it would; it would just mask those losses.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,259

    Leon said:

    I'm trying to do a proper day's work, sending a trillion emails, and most of them bounce back saying "Oh, I'm out of the office until January 8th"

    JANUARY THE FUCKING 8TH

    No wonder this country is in the khazi

    By January 8th it will be too late and I'll be by a pool in the tropics

    GET BACK TO FUCKING WORK

    Only losers work the days between Christmas and New Year.

    You need a better job.
    I actually quite like working the perineum of the Calendar, twixt Xmas and NYE

    All is quiet. No one walks the streets. A torpor descends, sans distractions. You can actually get a lot of shit done, when everyone else is on hols

    Ditto August
  • eekeek Posts: 28,367

    The Tories are going to lose so many council seats in May. These seats were the ones that should have been contested in 2020, but elections were delayed until 2021 because of Covid. The Tories did very well that year, NEV was Con 40%, Lab 30%. A repeat of 2023 would mean an 8 or 9% swing* - shellacking territory.

    Using this as a stepping stone to an autumn election would be a less than ideal strategy for Sunak.

    So, the argument here is that in order to avoid an 8-9% swing against them, and the concomitant shellacking in the May local elections*, they should take a 9-10% swing against them at a general election and hence an even bigger shellacking? I think I can see a problem in that?

    * Not that it would; it would just mask those losses.
    I don't think there is any good time for Sunak to call an election, the best option is probably May when the April pay packets (with say another 1p off NI) has arrived before the people get start getting used to spending it.
  • May election IMHO.
  • Sandpit said:

    OFSTED sounds as bad as the Post Office.

    Good piece from ‘the doctor’.

    Very shrewd comparison. There are some uncomfortable parallels in the model of "the computer/inspector must be right", so there's no need for scrutiny or appeal, and can go straight to prosecution or academisation.

    Which provides excellent cover against mistakes, until it gets out of hand. As it did in both cases.

    As for what to do, flip knows. The current model has clearly run out of road, but we need to decide why we are inspecting schools. I like "food safety checks, not restaurant reviews" as a headline, but what does it actually look like?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653

    Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    You jest, but that in part has already happened with academies etc which in part is why the education system is coping as well as it is in my view despite the DfE and despite Ofsted and despite the poor level of funding.

    We should also encourage and enable more parents to drive their kids to school too. End the postcode lottery of having to go to crap schools that are in walking distance, if a better school is a drive away, then choose that one instead.
    FFS that is so disconnected from the reality of many parents who may not have a car, or need their car to get to work, or both work full-time so don't have time to ferry their kids to school, or can't afford the fuel and mileage.

    To say nothing on the effect on roads, rush-hour, the environment, children's health,...

    It's already bad enough with the middle-class yummy-mummies in their 4x4 driving from one end of the village to save Johnny having to walk to school at the other end.

    Rant over. You're welcome.
    Its a shame if parents can't afford a car or fuel, which is why we should seek to make cars and their fuel (ideally electricity in the future) as cheap as possible so that there is as little a barrier as possible to private transportation.

    Yes people do need to go to work, but most schools in my experience offer before and after school clubs. I drive my kids and drop them off at club if I can't drop them off at the school gate.

    As for those yummy-mummies driving their kids to school - good on them! They should be praised for taking an interest in their kids education. 👏👏👏
    Nice trolling!
    Deadly serious.

    I could walk my kids to the school next to my estate, but its not got a good reputation and I value my kids education more than I value the cost of fuel. So I drive much further to drive them into a better school (still a state school btw).

    I have more respect for parents who value their children's education and drive them to school than I do parents who view education as no more than childcare and dump them without thinking about it at the nearest drop-off point.
    Fair enough, but of course it's not the parents you despise who suffer.
    Quite right, nobody "suffers".

    And I don't despise anyone, just don't respect them.
    Their children "suffer", going to what inevitably becomes a sink school as all the parents with the means to take their children elsewhere do so.

    Now you may say 'that's the market' but the consumers are not the ones choosing the product.

    Anyhow, it's other people's kids so why should you care?
  • May election IMHO.

    I agree with you.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    The Tories are going to lose so many council seats in May. These seats were the ones that should have been contested in 2020, but elections were delayed until 2021 because of Covid. The Tories did very well that year, NEV was Con 40%, Lab 30%. A repeat of 2023 would mean an 8 or 9% swing* - shellacking territory.

    Using this as a stepping stone to an autumn election would be a less than ideal strategy for Sunak.

    So, the argument here is that in order to avoid an 8-9% swing against them, and the concomitant shellacking in the May local elections*, they should take a 9-10% swing against them at a general election and hence an even bigger shellacking? I think I can see a problem in that?

    * Not that it would; it would just mask those losses.
    The argument is threefold. Firstly, having the GE and LE concurrently will make the LE results less bad, as there are many Tories not inclined to bother voting in an LE who would turn out at a GE. Secondly, appallingly bad LE results will poison the rest of the year for the Tories, providing a poor backdrop to a following GE. And thirdly, the LE disaster would put Sunak’s leadership into the spotlight at the worst possible time.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,244
    WillG said:

    Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    A voucher based system means the DfE is even more important to stop charlatan schools ripping off the taxpayer to siphon away cash.
    A voucher based system means the DfE is even more important to ensure that charlatan schools ripping off the taxpayer to siphon away 100% of the cash.

    Fixed that for you. £456.89 + VAT
  • DavidL said:

    And yet, for all these disasters, England continues to outpace both Scotland and Wales on the PISA measurements, widening attainment gaps in Science, reading and Maths. Although the absolute scores were down, probably due to Covid effects, the relative performance improved and not just with the rest of the UK but internationally.

    Why is this, given the apparent shambles in English regulation over the last decade? I think that the answer is that, for all its faults, the English system does actually try to do something about failing schools whilst in Scotland and Wales they are allowed to carry on, failing generation after generation of children.

    In part, some issues about how small and unrepresentative the English sample was;

    But the country’s performance is also likely overinflated.

    Too few students from England took part in the study – meaning the results could be up to eight points too generous, as more higher-performing pupils took part


    https://schoolsweek.co.uk/pisa-2022-rise-in-maths-but-warning-over-inflated-results/
    I have a very strong suspicion that a lot of countries are playing the PISA system right now.
    What's the rule about a measure becoming a target and then ceasing to be useful?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I'm trying to do a proper day's work, sending a trillion emails, and most of them bounce back saying "Oh, I'm out of the office until January 8th"

    JANUARY THE FUCKING 8TH

    No wonder this country is in the khazi

    By January 8th it will be too late and I'll be by a pool in the tropics

    GET BACK TO FUCKING WORK

    Only losers work the days between Christmas and New Year.

    You need a better job.
    I actually quite like working the perineum of the Calendar, twixt Xmas and NYE

    All is quiet. No one walks the streets. A torpor descends, sans distractions. You can actually get a lot of shit done, when everyone else is on hols

    Ditto August
    Then what are you complaining about?
  • Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    You jest, but that in part has already happened with academies etc which in part is why the education system is coping as well as it is in my view despite the DfE and despite Ofsted and despite the poor level of funding.

    We should also encourage and enable more parents to drive their kids to school too. End the postcode lottery of having to go to crap schools that are in walking distance, if a better school is a drive away, then choose that one instead.
    FFS that is so disconnected from the reality of many parents who may not have a car, or need their car to get to work, or both work full-time so don't have time to ferry their kids to school, or can't afford the fuel and mileage.

    To say nothing on the effect on roads, rush-hour, the environment, children's health,...

    It's already bad enough with the middle-class yummy-mummies in their 4x4 driving from one end of the village to save Johnny having to walk to school at the other end.

    Rant over. You're welcome.
    Its a shame if parents can't afford a car or fuel, which is why we should seek to make cars and their fuel (ideally electricity in the future) as cheap as possible so that there is as little a barrier as possible to private transportation.

    Yes people do need to go to work, but most schools in my experience offer before and after school clubs. I drive my kids and drop them off at club if I can't drop them off at the school gate.

    As for those yummy-mummies driving their kids to school - good on them! They should be praised for taking an interest in their kids education. 👏👏👏
    Nice trolling!
    Deadly serious.

    I could walk my kids to the school next to my estate, but its not got a good reputation and I value my kids education more than I value the cost of fuel. So I drive much further to drive them into a better school (still a state school btw).

    I have more respect for parents who value their children's education and drive them to school than I do parents who view education as no more than childcare and dump them without thinking about it at the nearest drop-off point.
    Fair enough, but of course it's not the parents you despise who suffer.
    Quite right, nobody "suffers".

    And I don't despise anyone, just don't respect them.
    Their children "suffer", going to what inevitably becomes a sink school as all the parents with the means to take their children elsewhere do so.

    Now you may say 'that's the market' but the consumers are not the ones choosing the product.

    Anyhow, it's other people's kids so why should you care?
    Nobody has to go to a sink school and if nobody chooses to go to a school it should shut down.

    If the children of parents who don't give a damn end up going to shitty schools because their parents don't care, that's their parents fault, not my fault.

    Why should I send my child to a shit school just to even it out?
  • DavidL said:

    And yet, for all these disasters, England continues to outpace both Scotland and Wales on the PISA measurements, widening attainment gaps in Science, reading and Maths. Although the absolute scores were down, probably due to Covid effects, the relative performance improved and not just with the rest of the UK but internationally.

    Why is this, given the apparent shambles in English regulation over the last decade? I think that the answer is that, for all its faults, the English system does actually try to do something about failing schools whilst in Scotland and Wales they are allowed to carry on, failing generation after generation of children.

    In part, some issues about how small and unrepresentative the English sample was;

    But the country’s performance is also likely overinflated.

    Too few students from England took part in the study – meaning the results could be up to eight points too generous, as more higher-performing pupils took part


    https://schoolsweek.co.uk/pisa-2022-rise-in-maths-but-warning-over-inflated-results/
    I have a very strong suspicion that a lot of countries are playing the PISA system right now.
    A country with a culture of parents & institutions gaming the education system playing the PISA system? Surely not..

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4845786/Guy-Adams-investigates-Eton-exam-leaks.html
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I'm trying to do a proper day's work, sending a trillion emails, and most of them bounce back saying "Oh, I'm out of the office until January 8th"

    JANUARY THE FUCKING 8TH

    No wonder this country is in the khazi

    By January 8th it will be too late and I'll be by a pool in the tropics

    GET BACK TO FUCKING WORK

    Only losers work the days between Christmas and New Year.

    You need a better job.
    I actually quite like working the perineum of the Calendar, twixt Xmas and NYE

    All is quiet. No one walks the streets. A torpor descends, sans distractions. You can actually get a lot of shit done, when everyone else is on hols

    Ditto August
    Rimming the year’s end. Like it.
  • Leon said:

    I'm trying to do a proper day's work, sending a trillion emails, and most of them bounce back saying "Oh, I'm out of the office until January 8th"

    JANUARY THE FUCKING 8TH

    No wonder this country is in the khazi

    By January 8th it will be too late and I'll be by a pool in the tropics

    GET BACK TO FUCKING WORK

    Only losers work the days between Christmas and New Year.

    You need a better job.
    No it's a great time to work. Spend a few hours tinkering with speadsheets when nobody will bother you and save your precious annual leave for doing something fun when the weather is better.
    Apart from 2020 I haven’t worked this period since 2010.

    Hurrah for 35 holiday days a year plus stats but I can convert my extra hours worked into hols max 5 days.

    So I can have 48 days holiday every year, a reward for working for a bank.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited December 2023

    https://x.com/TimesRadio/status/1740420401874764213

    “If we hadn't had Keir Starmer putting up with Corbyn during all that nonsense…he would not have been elected."

    @DannytheFink
    asks Peter Mandelson if Keir Starmer was wrong to serve in Jeremy Corbyn’s shadow cabinet.

    Peter Mandelson is as usual, correct.

    But what if Corbyn had won? Saying “Oh I only pretended to agree with him, and campaigned for him to be PM because I thought we’d lose and then I’d take over” wouldn’t be the most believable excuse for promoting someone Sir Keir and Mandelson consider an anti semite who would be terrible at running the country


  • DavidL said:

    And yet, for all these disasters, England continues to outpace both Scotland and Wales on the PISA measurements, widening attainment gaps in Science, reading and Maths. Although the absolute scores were down, probably due to Covid effects, the relative performance improved and not just with the rest of the UK but internationally.

    Why is this, given the apparent shambles in English regulation over the last decade? I think that the answer is that, for all its faults, the English system does actually try to do something about failing schools whilst in Scotland and Wales they are allowed to carry on, failing generation after generation of children.

    In part, some issues about how small and unrepresentative the English sample was;

    But the country’s performance is also likely overinflated.

    Too few students from England took part in the study – meaning the results could be up to eight points too generous, as more higher-performing pupils took part


    https://schoolsweek.co.uk/pisa-2022-rise-in-maths-but-warning-over-inflated-results/
    I have a very strong suspicion that a lot of countries are playing the PISA system right now.
    What's the rule about a measure becoming a target and then ceasing to be useful?
    Yup. I reckon there is a lot of that going on.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,109

    Leon said:

    I'm trying to do a proper day's work, sending a trillion emails, and most of them bounce back saying "Oh, I'm out of the office until January 8th"

    JANUARY THE FUCKING 8TH

    No wonder this country is in the khazi

    By January 8th it will be too late and I'll be by a pool in the tropics

    GET BACK TO FUCKING WORK

    Only losers work the days between Christmas and New Year.

    You need a better job.
    No it's a great time to work. Spend a few hours tinkering with speadsheets when nobody will bother you and save your precious annual leave for doing something fun when the weather is better.
    Back in the old pre-WFH days I used to particularly enjoy the City during the dead fortnight encompassing Christmas and New Year. Few around, no stress, just tinker around a bit with this and that, long lunch, early exit, and all on full pay. I hardly ever took it as holiday.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,968
    edited December 2023

    Leon said:

    I'm trying to do a proper day's work, sending a trillion emails, and most of them bounce back saying "Oh, I'm out of the office until January 8th"

    JANUARY THE FUCKING 8TH

    No wonder this country is in the khazi

    By January 8th it will be too late and I'll be by a pool in the tropics

    GET BACK TO FUCKING WORK

    Only losers work the days between Christmas and New Year.

    You need a better job.
    No it's a great time to work. Spend a few hours tinkering with speadsheets when nobody will bother you and save your precious annual leave for doing something fun when the weather is better.
    Apart from 2020 I haven’t worked this period since 2010.

    Hurrah for 35 holiday days a year plus stats but I can convert my extra hours worked into hols max 5 days.

    So I can have 48 days holiday every year, a reward for working for a bank.
    Since we're discussing education, that's nearly as good as working for a school. ;)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    edited December 2023
    Breaking: UK Statistics Authority criticises Sunak’s use of economic data, which risks “undermining trust”, following a complaint by the LibDems

    Clearly, they’re working over Twixmas.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653

    Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    You jest, but that in part has already happened with academies etc which in part is why the education system is coping as well as it is in my view despite the DfE and despite Ofsted and despite the poor level of funding.

    We should also encourage and enable more parents to drive their kids to school too. End the postcode lottery of having to go to crap schools that are in walking distance, if a better school is a drive away, then choose that one instead.
    FFS that is so disconnected from the reality of many parents who may not have a car, or need their car to get to work, or both work full-time so don't have time to ferry their kids to school, or can't afford the fuel and mileage.

    To say nothing on the effect on roads, rush-hour, the environment, children's health,...

    It's already bad enough with the middle-class yummy-mummies in their 4x4 driving from one end of the village to save Johnny having to walk to school at the other end.

    Rant over. You're welcome.
    Its a shame if parents can't afford a car or fuel, which is why we should seek to make cars and their fuel (ideally electricity in the future) as cheap as possible so that there is as little a barrier as possible to private transportation.

    Yes people do need to go to work, but most schools in my experience offer before and after school clubs. I drive my kids and drop them off at club if I can't drop them off at the school gate.

    As for those yummy-mummies driving their kids to school - good on them! They should be praised for taking an interest in their kids education. 👏👏👏
    Nice trolling!
    Deadly serious.

    I could walk my kids to the school next to my estate, but its not got a good reputation and I value my kids education more than I value the cost of fuel. So I drive much further to drive them into a better school (still a state school btw).

    I have more respect for parents who value their children's education and drive them to school than I do parents who view education as no more than childcare and dump them without thinking about it at the nearest drop-off point.
    Fair enough, but of course it's not the parents you despise who suffer.
    Quite right, nobody "suffers".

    And I don't despise anyone, just don't respect them.
    Their children "suffer", going to what inevitably becomes a sink school as all the parents with the means to take their children elsewhere do so.

    Now you may say 'that's the market' but the consumers are not the ones choosing the product.

    Anyhow, it's other people's kids so why should you care?
    Nobody has to go to a sink school and if nobody chooses to go to a school it should shut down.

    If the children of parents who don't give a damn end up going to shitty schools because their parents don't care, that's their parents fault, not my fault.

    Why should I send my child to a shit school just to even it out?
    No, I'm not suggesting you send your children to a shit school. Far from it.

    I'm just trying to point out that driving your child to a better school miles away isn't an option for a lot of people.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,367
    edited December 2023

    Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    You jest, but that in part has already happened with academies etc which in part is why the education system is coping as well as it is in my view despite the DfE and despite Ofsted and despite the poor level of funding.

    We should also encourage and enable more parents to drive their kids to school too. End the postcode lottery of having to go to crap schools that are in walking distance, if a better school is a drive away, then choose that one instead.
    FFS that is so disconnected from the reality of many parents who may not have a car, or need their car to get to work, or both work full-time so don't have time to ferry their kids to school, or can't afford the fuel and mileage.

    To say nothing on the effect on roads, rush-hour, the environment, children's health,...

    It's already bad enough with the middle-class yummy-mummies in their 4x4 driving from one end of the village to save Johnny having to walk to school at the other end.

    Rant over. You're welcome.
    Its a shame if parents can't afford a car or fuel, which is why we should seek to make cars and their fuel (ideally electricity in the future) as cheap as possible so that there is as little a barrier as possible to private transportation.

    Yes people do need to go to work, but most schools in my experience offer before and after school clubs. I drive my kids and drop them off at club if I can't drop them off at the school gate.

    As for those yummy-mummies driving their kids to school - good on them! They should be praised for taking an interest in their kids education. 👏👏👏
    Nice trolling!
    Deadly serious.

    I could walk my kids to the school next to my estate, but its not got a good reputation and I value my kids education more than I value the cost of fuel. So I drive much further to drive them into a better school (still a state school btw).

    I have more respect for parents who value their children's education and drive them to school than I do parents who view education as no more than childcare and dump them without thinking about it at the nearest drop-off point.
    Fair enough, but of course it's not the parents you despise who suffer.
    Quite right, nobody "suffers".

    And I don't despise anyone, just don't respect them.
    Their children "suffer", going to what inevitably becomes a sink school as all the parents with the means to take their children elsewhere do so.

    Now you may say 'that's the market' but the consumers are not the ones choosing the product.

    Anyhow, it's other people's kids so why should you care?
    Nobody has to go to a sink school and if nobody chooses to go to a school it should shut down.

    If the children of parents who don't give a damn end up going to shitty schools because their parents don't care, that's their parents fault, not my fault.

    Why should I send my child to a shit school just to even it out?
    Um, clearly you are in an area where there are more school spaces than pupils wanting a space.

    Round this neck of the woods you choice of primary school is determined by where you live as the number of children wanting a space is greater than the spaces available - hence you get a choice of the school you are given with zero chance of an appeal working (because the other schools are full so an appeal can be automatically rejected)..
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631

    Sandpit said:

    OFSTED sounds as bad as the Post Office.

    Good piece from ‘the doctor’.

    Very shrewd comparison. There are some uncomfortable parallels in the model of "the computer/inspector must be right", so there's no need for scrutiny or appeal, and can go straight to prosecution or academisation.

    Which provides excellent cover against mistakes, until it gets out of hand. As it did in both cases.

    As for what to do, flip knows. The current model has clearly run out of road, but we need to decide why we are inspecting schools. I like "food safety checks, not restaurant reviews" as a headline, but what does it actually look like?
    We might want to ask why the CQC was so positive about the hospital where Lucy Letby was working too.

    It may just be that those who can do, those who can't teach, and those who can't teach become inspectors.

  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,968
    edited December 2023

    Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    You jest, but that in part has already happened with academies etc which in part is why the education system is coping as well as it is in my view despite the DfE and despite Ofsted and despite the poor level of funding.

    We should also encourage and enable more parents to drive their kids to school too. End the postcode lottery of having to go to crap schools that are in walking distance, if a better school is a drive away, then choose that one instead.
    FFS that is so disconnected from the reality of many parents who may not have a car, or need their car to get to work, or both work full-time so don't have time to ferry their kids to school, or can't afford the fuel and mileage.

    To say nothing on the effect on roads, rush-hour, the environment, children's health,...

    It's already bad enough with the middle-class yummy-mummies in their 4x4 driving from one end of the village to save Johnny having to walk to school at the other end.

    Rant over. You're welcome.
    Its a shame if parents can't afford a car or fuel, which is why we should seek to make cars and their fuel (ideally electricity in the future) as cheap as possible so that there is as little a barrier as possible to private transportation.

    Yes people do need to go to work, but most schools in my experience offer before and after school clubs. I drive my kids and drop them off at club if I can't drop them off at the school gate.

    As for those yummy-mummies driving their kids to school - good on them! They should be praised for taking an interest in their kids education. 👏👏👏
    Nice trolling!
    Deadly serious.

    I could walk my kids to the school next to my estate, but its not got a good reputation and I value my kids education more than I value the cost of fuel. So I drive much further to drive them into a better school (still a state school btw).

    I have more respect for parents who value their children's education and drive them to school than I do parents who view education as no more than childcare and dump them without thinking about it at the nearest drop-off point.
    Fair enough, but of course it's not the parents you despise who suffer.
    Quite right, nobody "suffers".

    And I don't despise anyone, just don't respect them.
    Their children "suffer", going to what inevitably becomes a sink school as all the parents with the means to take their children elsewhere do so.

    Now you may say 'that's the market' but the consumers are not the ones choosing the product.

    Anyhow, it's other people's kids so why should you care?
    Nobody has to go to a sink school and if nobody chooses to go to a school it should shut down.

    If the children of parents who don't give a damn end up going to shitty schools because their parents don't care, that's their parents fault, not my fault.

    Why should I send my child to a shit school just to even it out?
    No, I'm not suggesting you send your children to a shit school. Far from it.

    I'm just trying to point out that driving your child to a better school miles away isn't an option for a lot of people.
    And I'm saying it should be.

    We should remove as many barriers as possible that stand in the way of parents putting their children's education first.
    eek said:

    Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    You jest, but that in part has already happened with academies etc which in part is why the education system is coping as well as it is in my view despite the DfE and despite Ofsted and despite the poor level of funding.

    We should also encourage and enable more parents to drive their kids to school too. End the postcode lottery of having to go to crap schools that are in walking distance, if a better school is a drive away, then choose that one instead.
    FFS that is so disconnected from the reality of many parents who may not have a car, or need their car to get to work, or both work full-time so don't have time to ferry their kids to school, or can't afford the fuel and mileage.

    To say nothing on the effect on roads, rush-hour, the environment, children's health,...

    It's already bad enough with the middle-class yummy-mummies in their 4x4 driving from one end of the village to save Johnny having to walk to school at the other end.

    Rant over. You're welcome.
    Its a shame if parents can't afford a car or fuel, which is why we should seek to make cars and their fuel (ideally electricity in the future) as cheap as possible so that there is as little a barrier as possible to private transportation.

    Yes people do need to go to work, but most schools in my experience offer before and after school clubs. I drive my kids and drop them off at club if I can't drop them off at the school gate.

    As for those yummy-mummies driving their kids to school - good on them! They should be praised for taking an interest in their kids education. 👏👏👏
    Nice trolling!
    Deadly serious.

    I could walk my kids to the school next to my estate, but its not got a good reputation and I value my kids education more than I value the cost of fuel. So I drive much further to drive them into a better school (still a state school btw).

    I have more respect for parents who value their children's education and drive them to school than I do parents who view education as no more than childcare and dump them without thinking about it at the nearest drop-off point.
    Fair enough, but of course it's not the parents you despise who suffer.
    Quite right, nobody "suffers".

    And I don't despise anyone, just don't respect them.
    Their children "suffer", going to what inevitably becomes a sink school as all the parents with the means to take their children elsewhere do so.

    Now you may say 'that's the market' but the consumers are not the ones choosing the product.

    Anyhow, it's other people's kids so why should you care?
    Nobody has to go to a sink school and if nobody chooses to go to a school it should shut down.

    If the children of parents who don't give a damn end up going to shitty schools because their parents don't care, that's their parents fault, not my fault.

    Why should I send my child to a shit school just to even it out?
    Um, clearly you are in an area where there are more school spaces than pupils wanting a space.

    Round this neck of the woods you choice of primary school is determined by where you live as the number of children wanting a space is greater than the spaces available - hence you get a choice of the school you are given with zero chance of an appeal working.
    That's a terrible situation to be in and should be fixed.
  • Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    You jest, but that in part has already happened with academies etc which in part is why the education system is coping as well as it is in my view despite the DfE and despite Ofsted and despite the poor level of funding.

    We should also encourage and enable more parents to drive their kids to school too. End the postcode lottery of having to go to crap schools that are in walking distance, if a better school is a drive away, then choose that one instead.
    FFS that is so disconnected from the reality of many parents who may not have a car, or need their car to get to work, or both work full-time so don't have time to ferry their kids to school, or can't afford the fuel and mileage.

    To say nothing on the effect on roads, rush-hour, the environment, children's health,...

    It's already bad enough with the middle-class yummy-mummies in their 4x4 driving from one end of the village to save Johnny having to walk to school at the other end.

    Rant over. You're welcome.
    Its a shame if parents can't afford a car or fuel, which is why we should seek to make cars and their fuel (ideally electricity in the future) as cheap as possible so that there is as little a barrier as possible to private transportation.

    Yes people do need to go to work, but most schools in my experience offer before and after school clubs. I drive my kids and drop them off at club if I can't drop them off at the school gate.

    As for those yummy-mummies driving their kids to school - good on them! They should be praised for taking an interest in their kids education. 👏👏👏
    Nice trolling!
    Deadly serious.

    I could walk my kids to the school next to my estate, but its not got a good reputation and I value my kids education more than I value the cost of fuel. So I drive much further to drive them into a better school (still a state school btw).

    I have more respect for parents who value their children's education and drive them to school than I do parents who view education as no more than childcare and dump them without thinking about it at the nearest drop-off point.
    Fair enough, but of course it's not the parents you despise who suffer.
    Quite right, nobody "suffers".

    And I don't despise anyone, just don't respect them.
    Their children "suffer", going to what inevitably becomes a sink school as all the parents with the means to take their children elsewhere do so.

    Now you may say 'that's the market' but the consumers are not the ones choosing the product.

    Anyhow, it's other people's kids so why should you care?
    Nobody has to go to a sink school and if nobody chooses to go to a school it should shut down.

    If the children of parents who don't give a damn end up going to shitty schools because their parents don't care, that's their parents fault, not my fault.

    Why should I send my child to a shit school just to even it out?
    That only works if you have quite a lot of spare capacity in the system. Enough that it's realistic for everyone at the sink school to leave.

    We could fund that, I suppose, but it would be awfully expensive.

    (One of the reasons that school choice doesn't really work is that good schools often don't want to expand. Partly because of physical limits, but also because many heads would rather run a smaller school really well in a hands on way than a larger one where they never leave their office.

    Winchester College, to take a non random example, has 700 boys.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,068
    Nigelb said:

    Cracking article, ydoethur (so that's how it's pronounced). No doubt some will complain of its length.

    It's too long

    (To explain. Back in the day the article limit was around 800 words. But Cyclefree's articles started creeping up, eventually hitting the 1000-1200 word mark. This was noted and I coined the phrases "Cyclefree limit" (1200 words) and "The Usual Review" ("interesting, well-written, too long, nothing to do with betting"), Cyclefree then dialed it back, making her articles more punchy, although still with a tendency to spike up.

    But this new one from Ydoethur weighs in at omigod over 1800 words, which is another step change. I propose the term "Ydoethur limit" (1800 words) for this, although "The Usual Review" still applies
    )
  • Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    You jest, but that in part has already happened with academies etc which in part is why the education system is coping as well as it is in my view despite the DfE and despite Ofsted and despite the poor level of funding.

    We should also encourage and enable more parents to drive their kids to school too. End the postcode lottery of having to go to crap schools that are in walking distance, if a better school is a drive away, then choose that one instead.
    FFS that is so disconnected from the reality of many parents who may not have a car, or need their car to get to work, or both work full-time so don't have time to ferry their kids to school, or can't afford the fuel and mileage.

    To say nothing on the effect on roads, rush-hour, the environment, children's health,...

    It's already bad enough with the middle-class yummy-mummies in their 4x4 driving from one end of the village to save Johnny having to walk to school at the other end.

    Rant over. You're welcome.
    Its a shame if parents can't afford a car or fuel, which is why we should seek to make cars and their fuel (ideally electricity in the future) as cheap as possible so that there is as little a barrier as possible to private transportation.

    Yes people do need to go to work, but most schools in my experience offer before and after school clubs. I drive my kids and drop them off at club if I can't drop them off at the school gate.

    As for those yummy-mummies driving their kids to school - good on them! They should be praised for taking an interest in their kids education. 👏👏👏
    Nice trolling!
    Deadly serious.

    I could walk my kids to the school next to my estate, but its not got a good reputation and I value my kids education more than I value the cost of fuel. So I drive much further to drive them into a better school (still a state school btw).

    I have more respect for parents who value their children's education and drive them to school than I do parents who view education as no more than childcare and dump them without thinking about it at the nearest drop-off point.
    Fair enough, but of course it's not the parents you despise who suffer.
    Quite right, nobody "suffers".

    And I don't despise anyone, just don't respect them.
    Their children "suffer", going to what inevitably becomes a sink school as all the parents with the means to take their children elsewhere do so.

    Now you may say 'that's the market' but the consumers are not the ones choosing the product.

    Anyhow, it's other people's kids so why should you care?
    Nobody has to go to a sink school and if nobody chooses to go to a school it should shut down.

    If the children of parents who don't give a damn end up going to shitty schools because their parents don't care, that's their parents fault, not my fault.

    Why should I send my child to a shit school just to even it out?
    That only works if you have quite a lot of spare capacity in the system. Enough that it's realistic for everyone at the sink school to leave.

    We could fund that, I suppose, but it would be awfully expensive.

    (One of the reasons that school choice doesn't really work is that good schools often don't want to expand. Partly because of physical limits, but also because many heads would rather run a smaller school really well in a hands on way than a larger one where they never leave their office.

    Winchester College, to take a non random example, has 700 boys.
    We should fund it yes. I value education, we should spend more on it and less on healthcare and pensions.

    And it also works if schools can expand and contract, and new schools can open.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I'm trying to do a proper day's work, sending a trillion emails, and most of them bounce back saying "Oh, I'm out of the office until January 8th"

    JANUARY THE FUCKING 8TH

    No wonder this country is in the khazi

    By January 8th it will be too late and I'll be by a pool in the tropics

    GET BACK TO FUCKING WORK

    Only losers work the days between Christmas and New Year.

    You need a better job.
    No it's a great time to work. Spend a few hours tinkering with speadsheets when nobody will bother you and save your precious annual leave for doing something fun when the weather is better.
    Back in the old pre-WFH days I used to particularly enjoy the City during the dead fortnight encompassing Christmas and New Year. Few around, no stress, just tinker around a bit with this and that, long lunch, early exit, and all on full pay. I hardly ever took it as holiday.
    I am off this twixtmas too, but generally it is a pretty dossy time to work. Working Christmas day itself is very quiet.
  • It’s probably too late to save Ofsted. It has fouled its own underpants. The smell will be impossible to shift.

    A fresh LA led approach. Something considered, consensual, and reflective is required.

    Good header though. The retaining of Ofsted is the only point I disagree with.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,009

    The Tories are going to lose so many council seats in May. These seats were the ones that should have been contested in 2020, but elections were delayed until 2021 because of Covid. The Tories did very well that year, NEV was Con 40%, Lab 30%. A repeat of 2023 would mean an 8 or 9% swing* - shellacking territory.

    Using this as a stepping stone to an autumn election would be a less than ideal strategy for Sunak.

    So, the argument here is that in order to avoid an 8-9% swing against them, and the concomitant shellacking in the May local elections*, they should take a 9-10% swing against them at a general election and hence an even bigger shellacking? I think I can see a problem in that?

    * Not that it would; it would just mask those losses.
    If the GE is on the same day as the locals, then I don't think that the results in the locals will end up the same as they would be in stand alone elections. Much higher turnout, national high profile campaigns, less focus on local issues.

    Anyway, my argument is that having disastrous local election results as a backdrop makes the Tories' job of tightening the polls even harder than it would be anyway.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    edited December 2023
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I'm trying to do a proper day's work, sending a trillion emails, and most of them bounce back saying "Oh, I'm out of the office until January 8th"

    JANUARY THE FUCKING 8TH

    No wonder this country is in the khazi

    By January 8th it will be too late and I'll be by a pool in the tropics

    GET BACK TO FUCKING WORK

    Only losers work the days between Christmas and New Year.

    You need a better job.
    No it's a great time to work. Spend a few hours tinkering with speadsheets when nobody will bother you and save your precious annual leave for doing something fun when the weather is better.
    Back in the old pre-WFH days I used to particularly enjoy the City during the dead fortnight encompassing Christmas and New Year. Few around, no stress, just tinker around a bit with this and that, long lunch, early exit, and all on full pay. I hardly ever took it as holiday.
    In my working days, I was the same. Similarly Xmas Eve. Taking the day off was a waste of a day’s holiday, when all you had to do was pitch up in the morning, gossip with colleagues about your Xmas plans, and then b***er off home again early afternoon,
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,806
    IanB2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I'm trying to do a proper day's work, sending a trillion emails, and most of them bounce back saying "Oh, I'm out of the office until January 8th"

    JANUARY THE FUCKING 8TH

    No wonder this country is in the khazi

    By January 8th it will be too late and I'll be by a pool in the tropics

    GET BACK TO FUCKING WORK

    Only losers work the days between Christmas and New Year.

    You need a better job.
    No it's a great time to work. Spend a few hours tinkering with speadsheets when nobody will bother you and save your precious annual leave for doing something fun when the weather is better.
    Back in the old pre-WFH days I used to particularly enjoy the City during the dead fortnight encompassing Christmas and New Year. Few around, no stress, just tinker around a bit with this and that, long lunch, early exit, and all on full pay. I hardly ever took it as holiday.
    In my working days, I was the same. Similarly Xmas Eve. Taking the day off was a waste of a day’s holiday, when all you had to do was pitch up in the morning, gossip with colleagues about your Xmas plans, and then b***er off home again early afternoon,
    And the PB Tories favourite whine is about productivity *nowadays*
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653

    Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    You jest, but that in part has already happened with academies etc which in part is why the education system is coping as well as it is in my view despite the DfE and despite Ofsted and despite the poor level of funding.

    We should also encourage and enable more parents to drive their kids to school too. End the postcode lottery of having to go to crap schools that are in walking distance, if a better school is a drive away, then choose that one instead.
    FFS that is so disconnected from the reality of many parents who may not have a car, or need their car to get to work, or both work full-time so don't have time to ferry their kids to school, or can't afford the fuel and mileage.

    To say nothing on the effect on roads, rush-hour, the environment, children's health,...

    It's already bad enough with the middle-class yummy-mummies in their 4x4 driving from one end of the village to save Johnny having to walk to school at the other end.

    Rant over. You're welcome.
    Its a shame if parents can't afford a car or fuel, which is why we should seek to make cars and their fuel (ideally electricity in the future) as cheap as possible so that there is as little a barrier as possible to private transportation.

    Yes people do need to go to work, but most schools in my experience offer before and after school clubs. I drive my kids and drop them off at club if I can't drop them off at the school gate.

    As for those yummy-mummies driving their kids to school - good on them! They should be praised for taking an interest in their kids education. 👏👏👏
    Nice trolling!
    Deadly serious.

    I could walk my kids to the school next to my estate, but its not got a good reputation and I value my kids education more than I value the cost of fuel. So I drive much further to drive them into a better school (still a state school btw).

    I have more respect for parents who value their children's education and drive them to school than I do parents who view education as no more than childcare and dump them without thinking about it at the nearest drop-off point.
    Fair enough, but of course it's not the parents you despise who suffer.
    Quite right, nobody "suffers".

    And I don't despise anyone, just don't respect them.
    Their children "suffer", going to what inevitably becomes a sink school as all the parents with the means to take their children elsewhere do so.

    Now you may say 'that's the market' but the consumers are not the ones choosing the product.

    Anyhow, it's other people's kids so why should you care?
    Nobody has to go to a sink school and if nobody chooses to go to a school it should shut down.

    If the children of parents who don't give a damn end up going to shitty schools because their parents don't care, that's their parents fault, not my fault.

    Why should I send my child to a shit school just to even it out?
    No, I'm not suggesting you send your children to a shit school. Far from it.

    I'm just trying to point out that driving your child to a better school miles away isn't an option for a lot of people.
    And I'm saying it should be.

    We should remove as many barriers as possible that stand in the way of parents putting their children's education first.
    eek said:

    Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    You jest, but that in part has already happened with academies etc which in part is why the education system is coping as well as it is in my view despite the DfE and despite Ofsted and despite the poor level of funding.

    We should also encourage and enable more parents to drive their kids to school too. End the postcode lottery of having to go to crap schools that are in walking distance, if a better school is a drive away, then choose that one instead.
    FFS that is so disconnected from the reality of many parents who may not have a car, or need their car to get to work, or both work full-time so don't have time to ferry their kids to school, or can't afford the fuel and mileage.

    To say nothing on the effect on roads, rush-hour, the environment, children's health,...

    It's already bad enough with the middle-class yummy-mummies in their 4x4 driving from one end of the village to save Johnny having to walk to school at the other end.

    Rant over. You're welcome.
    Its a shame if parents can't afford a car or fuel, which is why we should seek to make cars and their fuel (ideally electricity in the future) as cheap as possible so that there is as little a barrier as possible to private transportation.

    Yes people do need to go to work, but most schools in my experience offer before and after school clubs. I drive my kids and drop them off at club if I can't drop them off at the school gate.

    As for those yummy-mummies driving their kids to school - good on them! They should be praised for taking an interest in their kids education. 👏👏👏
    Nice trolling!
    Deadly serious.

    I could walk my kids to the school next to my estate, but its not got a good reputation and I value my kids education more than I value the cost of fuel. So I drive much further to drive them into a better school (still a state school btw).

    I have more respect for parents who value their children's education and drive them to school than I do parents who view education as no more than childcare and dump them without thinking about it at the nearest drop-off point.
    Fair enough, but of course it's not the parents you despise who suffer.
    Quite right, nobody "suffers".

    And I don't despise anyone, just don't respect them.
    Their children "suffer", going to what inevitably becomes a sink school as all the parents with the means to take their children elsewhere do so.

    Now you may say 'that's the market' but the consumers are not the ones choosing the product.

    Anyhow, it's other people's kids so why should you care?
    Nobody has to go to a sink school and if nobody chooses to go to a school it should shut down.

    If the children of parents who don't give a damn end up going to shitty schools because their parents don't care, that's their parents fault, not my fault.

    Why should I send my child to a shit school just to even it out?
    Um, clearly you are in an area where there are more school spaces than pupils wanting a space.

    Round this neck of the woods you choice of primary school is determined by where you live as the number of children wanting a space is greater than the spaces available - hence you get a choice of the school you are given with zero chance of an appeal working.
    That's a terrible situation to be in and should be fixed.
    One of those barriers is having shit schools, which is what Ofsted is supposed to prevent. (Unfortunately we have a shit Ofsted too.)

    Driving kids to a better school doesn't deal with the shit a school, which still remains.

    Either you invest time and money in improving the shit schools or you invest time and money in closing them and increasing capacity in the good schools (hoping the 'good' schools remain good over time).

    Neither option comes without cost.
  • .

    Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    You jest, but that in part has already happened with academies etc which in part is why the education system is coping as well as it is in my view despite the DfE and despite Ofsted and despite the poor level of funding.

    We should also encourage and enable more parents to drive their kids to school too. End the postcode lottery of having to go to crap schools that are in walking distance, if a better school is a drive away, then choose that one instead.
    FFS that is so disconnected from the reality of many parents who may not have a car, or need their car to get to work, or both work full-time so don't have time to ferry their kids to school, or can't afford the fuel and mileage.

    To say nothing on the effect on roads, rush-hour, the environment, children's health,...

    It's already bad enough with the middle-class yummy-mummies in their 4x4 driving from one end of the village to save Johnny having to walk to school at the other end.

    Rant over. You're welcome.
    Its a shame if parents can't afford a car or fuel, which is why we should seek to make cars and their fuel (ideally electricity in the future) as cheap as possible so that there is as little a barrier as possible to private transportation.

    Yes people do need to go to work, but most schools in my experience offer before and after school clubs. I drive my kids and drop them off at club if I can't drop them off at the school gate.

    As for those yummy-mummies driving their kids to school - good on them! They should be praised for taking an interest in their kids education. 👏👏👏
    Nice trolling!
    Deadly serious.

    I could walk my kids to the school next to my estate, but its not got a good reputation and I value my kids education more than I value the cost of fuel. So I drive much further to drive them into a better school (still a state school btw).

    I have more respect for parents who value their children's education and drive them to school than I do parents who view education as no more than childcare and dump them without thinking about it at the nearest drop-off point.
    Fair enough, but of course it's not the parents you despise who suffer.
    Quite right, nobody "suffers".

    And I don't despise anyone, just don't respect them.
    Their children "suffer", going to what inevitably becomes a sink school as all the parents with the means to take their children elsewhere do so.

    Now you may say 'that's the market' but the consumers are not the ones choosing the product.

    Anyhow, it's other people's kids so why should you care?
    Nobody has to go to a sink school and if nobody chooses to go to a school it should shut down.

    If the children of parents who don't give a damn end up going to shitty schools because their parents don't care, that's their parents fault, not my fault.

    Why should I send my child to a shit school just to even it out?
    No, I'm not suggesting you send your children to a shit school. Far from it.

    I'm just trying to point out that driving your child to a better school miles away isn't an option for a lot of people.
    And I'm saying it should be.

    We should remove as many barriers as possible that stand in the way of parents putting their children's education first.
    eek said:

    Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    You jest, but that in part has already happened with academies etc which in part is why the education system is coping as well as it is in my view despite the DfE and despite Ofsted and despite the poor level of funding.

    We should also encourage and enable more parents to drive their kids to school too. End the postcode lottery of having to go to crap schools that are in walking distance, if a better school is a drive away, then choose that one instead.
    FFS that is so disconnected from the reality of many parents who may not have a car, or need their car to get to work, or both work full-time so don't have time to ferry their kids to school, or can't afford the fuel and mileage.

    To say nothing on the effect on roads, rush-hour, the environment, children's health,...

    It's already bad enough with the middle-class yummy-mummies in their 4x4 driving from one end of the village to save Johnny having to walk to school at the other end.

    Rant over. You're welcome.
    Its a shame if parents can't afford a car or fuel, which is why we should seek to make cars and their fuel (ideally electricity in the future) as cheap as possible so that there is as little a barrier as possible to private transportation.

    Yes people do need to go to work, but most schools in my experience offer before and after school clubs. I drive my kids and drop them off at club if I can't drop them off at the school gate.

    As for those yummy-mummies driving their kids to school - good on them! They should be praised for taking an interest in their kids education. 👏👏👏
    Nice trolling!
    Deadly serious.

    I could walk my kids to the school next to my estate, but its not got a good reputation and I value my kids education more than I value the cost of fuel. So I drive much further to drive them into a better school (still a state school btw).

    I have more respect for parents who value their children's education and drive them to school than I do parents who view education as no more than childcare and dump them without thinking about it at the nearest drop-off point.
    Fair enough, but of course it's not the parents you despise who suffer.
    Quite right, nobody "suffers".

    And I don't despise anyone, just don't respect them.
    Their children "suffer", going to what inevitably becomes a sink school as all the parents with the means to take their children elsewhere do so.

    Now you may say 'that's the market' but the consumers are not the ones choosing the product.

    Anyhow, it's other people's kids so why should you care?
    Nobody has to go to a sink school and if nobody chooses to go to a school it should shut down.

    If the children of parents who don't give a damn end up going to shitty schools because their parents don't care, that's their parents fault, not my fault.

    Why should I send my child to a shit school just to even it out?
    Um, clearly you are in an area where there are more school spaces than pupils wanting a space.

    Round this neck of the woods you choice of primary school is determined by where you live as the number of children wanting a space is greater than the spaces available - hence you get a choice of the school you are given with zero chance of an appeal working.
    That's a terrible situation to be in and should be fixed.
    One of those barriers is having shit schools, which is what Ofsted is supposed to prevent. (Unfortunately we have a shit Ofsted too.)

    Driving kids to a better school doesn't deal with the shit a school, which still remains.

    Either you invest time and money in improving the shit schools or you invest time and money in closing them and increasing capacity in the good schools (hoping the 'good' schools remain good over time).

    Neither option comes without cost.
    There will always be shit schools, because as quality improves so too do expectations. What was good enough in the past shouldn't be considered acceptable in the future.

    Progress works very often by trimming the bottom or worst performers and lifting your expectations.

    Have a well-funded education system with choice that enables schools to expand and lets parents shop around for which school they want to take their kids to, and let standards be higher.

    Todays mediocre school might cut the mustard today, but if other schools improve and it doesn't, then it might be considered the shit school in the future, in which case it would either have to shape up or lose its children.

    Competition works.
  • PJHPJH Posts: 645
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I'm trying to do a proper day's work, sending a trillion emails, and most of them bounce back saying "Oh, I'm out of the office until January 8th"

    JANUARY THE FUCKING 8TH

    No wonder this country is in the khazi

    By January 8th it will be too late and I'll be by a pool in the tropics

    GET BACK TO FUCKING WORK

    Only losers work the days between Christmas and New Year.

    You need a better job.
    I actually quite like working the perineum of the Calendar, twixt Xmas and NYE

    All is quiet. No one walks the streets. A torpor descends, sans distractions. You can actually get a lot of shit done, when everyone else is on hols

    Ditto August
    I'm with you. The 3 days between Xmas and New Year form the most productive week of the year. Yesterday I finally put together a project plan for the project I took over in a complete mess in early November. I have been attempting to do that for the previous 6 weeks - without interruptions it only took half a day. And I've cleared out my Inbox for the first time since early in the year.

    And with that I'd better get back to it!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,109
    edited December 2023
    isam said:

    https://x.com/TimesRadio/status/1740420401874764213

    “If we hadn't had Keir Starmer putting up with Corbyn during all that nonsense…he would not have been elected."

    @DannytheFink
    asks Peter Mandelson if Keir Starmer was wrong to serve in Jeremy Corbyn’s shadow cabinet.

    Peter Mandelson is as usual, correct.

    But what if Corbyn had won? Saying “Oh I only pretended to agree with him, and campaigned for him to be PM because I thought we’d lose and then I’d take over” wouldn’t be the most believable excuse for promoting someone Sir Keir and Mandelson consider an anti semite who would be terrible at running the country
    You didn't need to think Jeremy Corbyn was suitable to be PM to serve under him or to campaign or vote for Labour in the 2 GEs where he was leader. You just had to consider it preferable to a Conservative government. That was the bar and it was low enough for most Labour people (inc me) to hop over. Quite merrily in my case.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,009
    isam said:

    https://x.com/TimesRadio/status/1740420401874764213

    “If we hadn't had Keir Starmer putting up with Corbyn during all that nonsense…he would not have been elected."

    @DannytheFink
    asks Peter Mandelson if Keir Starmer was wrong to serve in Jeremy Corbyn’s shadow cabinet.

    Peter Mandelson is as usual, correct.

    But what if Corbyn had won? Saying “Oh I only pretended to agree with him, and campaigned for him to be PM because I thought we’d lose and then I’d take over” wouldn’t be the most believable excuse for promoting someone Sir Keir and Mandelson consider an anti semite who would be terrible at running the country


    If Corbyn had become PM, I suspect that a VONC would have been engineered so that a PM more to the liking of the PLP could be installed.
  • IanB2 said:

    The Tories are going to lose so many council seats in May. These seats were the ones that should have been contested in 2020, but elections were delayed until 2021 because of Covid. The Tories did very well that year, NEV was Con 40%, Lab 30%. A repeat of 2023 would mean an 8 or 9% swing* - shellacking territory.

    Using this as a stepping stone to an autumn election would be a less than ideal strategy for Sunak.

    So, the argument here is that in order to avoid an 8-9% swing against them, and the concomitant shellacking in the May local elections*, they should take a 9-10% swing against them at a general election and hence an even bigger shellacking? I think I can see a problem in that?

    * Not that it would; it would just mask those losses.
    The argument is threefold. Firstly, having the GE and LE concurrently will make the LE results less bad, as there are many Tories not inclined to bother voting in an LE who would turn out at a GE. Secondly, appallingly bad LE results will poison the rest of the year for the Tories, providing a poor backdrop to a following GE. And thirdly, the LE disaster would put Sunak’s leadership into the spotlight at the worst possible time.
    Against which,
    - No 10 won't give a stuff about the local election results, if held on the same day as a GE drubbing.
    - The rest of the year is going to be poisoned anyway, but would be made even worse by an appallingly bad *GE* drubbing;
    - I agree that bad LE results set (or play into) a bad narrative. But the problem is the underlying position, not the revelation of it;
    - A LE disaster would put Sunak's leadership into the spotlight. But a GE disaster would do so even more. Why choose the latter over the former?
  • IanB2 said:

    The Tories are going to lose so many council seats in May. These seats were the ones that should have been contested in 2020, but elections were delayed until 2021 because of Covid. The Tories did very well that year, NEV was Con 40%, Lab 30%. A repeat of 2023 would mean an 8 or 9% swing* - shellacking territory.

    Using this as a stepping stone to an autumn election would be a less than ideal strategy for Sunak.

    So, the argument here is that in order to avoid an 8-9% swing against them, and the concomitant shellacking in the May local elections*, they should take a 9-10% swing against them at a general election and hence an even bigger shellacking? I think I can see a problem in that?

    * Not that it would; it would just mask those losses.
    The argument is threefold. Firstly, having the GE and LE concurrently will make the LE results less bad, as there are many Tories not inclined to bother voting in an LE who would turn out at a GE. Secondly, appallingly bad LE results will poison the rest of the year for the Tories, providing a poor backdrop to a following GE. And thirdly, the LE disaster would put Sunak’s leadership into the spotlight at the worst possible time.
    Against which,
    - No 10 won't give a stuff about the local election results, if held on the same day as a GE drubbing.
    - The rest of the year is going to be poisoned anyway, but would be made even worse by an appallingly bad *GE* drubbing;
    - I agree that bad LE results set (or play into) a bad narrative. But the problem is the underlying position, not the revelation of it;
    - A LE disaster would put Sunak's leadership into the spotlight. But a GE disaster would do so even more. Why choose the latter over the former?
    Sunak is a spineless ditherer.

    Why do today, that which can be postponed until tomorrow will rule the roost.

    No May election. If it wasn't for Christmas, I'd say January 2025 was nailed on, but thanks to Christmas he'll leave it as late as he realistically can, probably October.
  • The Tories are going to lose so many council seats in May. These seats were the ones that should have been contested in 2020, but elections were delayed until 2021 because of Covid. The Tories did very well that year, NEV was Con 40%, Lab 30%. A repeat of 2023 would mean an 8 or 9% swing* - shellacking territory.

    Using this as a stepping stone to an autumn election would be a less than ideal strategy for Sunak.

    So, the argument here is that in order to avoid an 8-9% swing against them, and the concomitant shellacking in the May local elections*, they should take a 9-10% swing against them at a general election and hence an even bigger shellacking? I think I can see a problem in that?

    * Not that it would; it would just mask those losses.
    If the GE is on the same day as the locals, then I don't think that the results in the locals will end up the same as they would be in stand alone elections. Much higher turnout, national high profile campaigns, less focus on local issues.

    Anyway, my argument is that having disastrous local election results as a backdrop makes the Tories' job of tightening the polls even harder than it would be anyway.
    Even if both points are true (and I wouldn't argue against them), that's like saying that the best way to stop the Titanic sinking as a result of hitting the iceberg is to slam a torpedo into her.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,367

    IanB2 said:

    The Tories are going to lose so many council seats in May. These seats were the ones that should have been contested in 2020, but elections were delayed until 2021 because of Covid. The Tories did very well that year, NEV was Con 40%, Lab 30%. A repeat of 2023 would mean an 8 or 9% swing* - shellacking territory.

    Using this as a stepping stone to an autumn election would be a less than ideal strategy for Sunak.

    So, the argument here is that in order to avoid an 8-9% swing against them, and the concomitant shellacking in the May local elections*, they should take a 9-10% swing against them at a general election and hence an even bigger shellacking? I think I can see a problem in that?

    * Not that it would; it would just mask those losses.
    The argument is threefold. Firstly, having the GE and LE concurrently will make the LE results less bad, as there are many Tories not inclined to bother voting in an LE who would turn out at a GE. Secondly, appallingly bad LE results will poison the rest of the year for the Tories, providing a poor backdrop to a following GE. And thirdly, the LE disaster would put Sunak’s leadership into the spotlight at the worst possible time.
    Against which,
    - No 10 won't give a stuff about the local election results, if held on the same day as a GE drubbing.
    - The rest of the year is going to be poisoned anyway, but would be made even worse by an appallingly bad *GE* drubbing;
    - I agree that bad LE results set (or play into) a bad narrative. But the problem is the underlying position, not the revelation of it;
    - A LE disaster would put Sunak's leadership into the spotlight. But a GE disaster would do so even more. Why choose the latter over the former?
    Rishi is gone after the GE - because whatever the result is, it's going to be bad enough that Rishi takes the blame and needs to go...

    Hence the question comes down to at what point will Rishi be looked upon favourably and that points to a May election (after another employee NI cut in the budget) because there won't be money for more cuts and it's literally the only bribe that's going to work...
  • eek said:

    IanB2 said:

    The Tories are going to lose so many council seats in May. These seats were the ones that should have been contested in 2020, but elections were delayed until 2021 because of Covid. The Tories did very well that year, NEV was Con 40%, Lab 30%. A repeat of 2023 would mean an 8 or 9% swing* - shellacking territory.

    Using this as a stepping stone to an autumn election would be a less than ideal strategy for Sunak.

    So, the argument here is that in order to avoid an 8-9% swing against them, and the concomitant shellacking in the May local elections*, they should take a 9-10% swing against them at a general election and hence an even bigger shellacking? I think I can see a problem in that?

    * Not that it would; it would just mask those losses.
    The argument is threefold. Firstly, having the GE and LE concurrently will make the LE results less bad, as there are many Tories not inclined to bother voting in an LE who would turn out at a GE. Secondly, appallingly bad LE results will poison the rest of the year for the Tories, providing a poor backdrop to a following GE. And thirdly, the LE disaster would put Sunak’s leadership into the spotlight at the worst possible time.
    Against which,
    - No 10 won't give a stuff about the local election results, if held on the same day as a GE drubbing.
    - The rest of the year is going to be poisoned anyway, but would be made even worse by an appallingly bad *GE* drubbing;
    - I agree that bad LE results set (or play into) a bad narrative. But the problem is the underlying position, not the revelation of it;
    - A LE disaster would put Sunak's leadership into the spotlight. But a GE disaster would do so even more. Why choose the latter over the former?
    Rishi is gone after the GE - because whatever the result is, it's going to be bad enough that Rishi takes the blame and needs to go...

    Hence the question comes down to at what point will Rishi be looked upon favourably and that points to a May election (after another employee NI cut in the budget) because there won't be money for more cuts and it's literally the only bribe that's going to work...
    Alternatively no bribe is going to work, so the election will be postponed as late as it realistically can be.

    That's not May.
  • IanB2 said:

    The Tories are going to lose so many council seats in May. These seats were the ones that should have been contested in 2020, but elections were delayed until 2021 because of Covid. The Tories did very well that year, NEV was Con 40%, Lab 30%. A repeat of 2023 would mean an 8 or 9% swing* - shellacking territory.

    Using this as a stepping stone to an autumn election would be a less than ideal strategy for Sunak.

    So, the argument here is that in order to avoid an 8-9% swing against them, and the concomitant shellacking in the May local elections*, they should take a 9-10% swing against them at a general election and hence an even bigger shellacking? I think I can see a problem in that?

    * Not that it would; it would just mask those losses.
    The argument is threefold. Firstly, having the GE and LE concurrently will make the LE results less bad, as there are many Tories not inclined to bother voting in an LE who would turn out at a GE. Secondly, appallingly bad LE results will poison the rest of the year for the Tories, providing a poor backdrop to a following GE. And thirdly, the LE disaster would put Sunak’s leadership into the spotlight at the worst possible time.
    Against which,
    - No 10 won't give a stuff about the local election results, if held on the same day as a GE drubbing.
    - The rest of the year is going to be poisoned anyway, but would be made even worse by an appallingly bad *GE* drubbing;
    - I agree that bad LE results set (or play into) a bad narrative. But the problem is the underlying position, not the revelation of it;
    - A LE disaster would put Sunak's leadership into the spotlight. But a GE disaster would do so even more. Why choose the latter over the former?
    Part of the question is whether Conservative prospects are better in May or October, in which case, on average, I'd say May.

    But the bigger part is whether Sunak would prefer to lose in May or October. Put like that, choosing December looks very rational.

    And who knows, a black swan who has experience as a singing tutor for horses might show up.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,367
    edited December 2023

    .

    Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    You jest, but that in part has already happened with academies etc which in part is why the education system is coping as well as it is in my view despite the DfE and despite Ofsted and despite the poor level of funding.

    We should also encourage and enable more parents to drive their kids to school too. End the postcode lottery of having to go to crap schools that are in walking distance, if a better school is a drive away, then choose that one instead.
    FFS that is so disconnected from the reality of many parents who may not have a car, or need their car to get to work, or both work full-time so don't have time to ferry their kids to school, or can't afford the fuel and mileage.

    To say nothing on the effect on roads, rush-hour, the environment, children's health,...

    It's already bad enough with the middle-class yummy-mummies in their 4x4 driving from one end of the village to save Johnny having to walk to school at the other end.

    Rant over. You're welcome.
    Its a shame if parents can't afford a car or fuel, which is why we should seek to make cars and their fuel (ideally electricity in the future) as cheap as possible so that there is as little a barrier as possible to private transportation.

    Yes people do need to go to work, but most schools in my experience offer before and after school clubs. I drive my kids and drop them off at club if I can't drop them off at the school gate.

    As for those yummy-mummies driving their kids to school - good on them! They should be praised for taking an interest in their kids education. 👏👏👏
    Nice trolling!
    Deadly serious.

    I could walk my kids to the school next to my estate, but its not got a good reputation and I value my kids education more than I value the cost of fuel. So I drive much further to drive them into a better school (still a state school btw).

    I have more respect for parents who value their children's education and drive them to school than I do parents who view education as no more than childcare and dump them without thinking about it at the nearest drop-off point.
    Fair enough, but of course it's not the parents you despise who suffer.
    Quite right, nobody "suffers".

    And I don't despise anyone, just don't respect them.
    Their children "suffer", going to what inevitably becomes a sink school as all the parents with the means to take their children elsewhere do so.

    Now you may say 'that's the market' but the consumers are not the ones choosing the product.

    Anyhow, it's other people's kids so why should you care?
    Nobody has to go to a sink school and if nobody chooses to go to a school it should shut down.

    If the children of parents who don't give a damn end up going to shitty schools because their parents don't care, that's their parents fault, not my fault.

    Why should I send my child to a shit school just to even it out?
    No, I'm not suggesting you send your children to a shit school. Far from it.

    I'm just trying to point out that driving your child to a better school miles away isn't an option for a lot of people.
    And I'm saying it should be.

    We should remove as many barriers as possible that stand in the way of parents putting their children's education first.
    eek said:

    Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    You jest, but that in part has already happened with academies etc which in part is why the education system is coping as well as it is in my view despite the DfE and despite Ofsted and despite the poor level of funding.

    We should also encourage and enable more parents to drive their kids to school too. End the postcode lottery of having to go to crap schools that are in walking distance, if a better school is a drive away, then choose that one instead.
    FFS that is so disconnected from the reality of many parents who may not have a car, or need their car to get to work, or both work full-time so don't have time to ferry their kids to school, or can't afford the fuel and mileage.

    To say nothing on the effect on roads, rush-hour, the environment, children's health,...

    It's already bad enough with the middle-class yummy-mummies in their 4x4 driving from one end of the village to save Johnny having to walk to school at the other end.

    Rant over. You're welcome.
    Its a shame if parents can't afford a car or fuel, which is why we should seek to make cars and their fuel (ideally electricity in the future) as cheap as possible so that there is as little a barrier as possible to private transportation.

    Yes people do need to go to work, but most schools in my experience offer before and after school clubs. I drive my kids and drop them off at club if I can't drop them off at the school gate.

    As for those yummy-mummies driving their kids to school - good on them! They should be praised for taking an interest in their kids education. 👏👏👏
    Nice trolling!
    Deadly serious.

    I could walk my kids to the school next to my estate, but its not got a good reputation and I value my kids education more than I value the cost of fuel. So I drive much further to drive them into a better school (still a state school btw).

    I have more respect for parents who value their children's education and drive them to school than I do parents who view education as no more than childcare and dump them without thinking about it at the nearest drop-off point.
    Fair enough, but of course it's not the parents you despise who suffer.
    Quite right, nobody "suffers".

    And I don't despise anyone, just don't respect them.
    Their children "suffer", going to what inevitably becomes a sink school as all the parents with the means to take their children elsewhere do so.

    Now you may say 'that's the market' but the consumers are not the ones choosing the product.

    Anyhow, it's other people's kids so why should you care?
    Nobody has to go to a sink school and if nobody chooses to go to a school it should shut down.

    If the children of parents who don't give a damn end up going to shitty schools because their parents don't care, that's their parents fault, not my fault.

    Why should I send my child to a shit school just to even it out?
    Um, clearly you are in an area where there are more school spaces than pupils wanting a space.

    Round this neck of the woods you choice of primary school is determined by where you live as the number of children wanting a space is greater than the spaces available - hence you get a choice of the school you are given with zero chance of an appeal working.
    That's a terrible situation to be in and should be fixed.
    One of those barriers is having shit schools, which is what Ofsted is supposed to prevent. (Unfortunately we have a shit Ofsted too.)

    Driving kids to a better school doesn't deal with the shit a school, which still remains.

    Either you invest time and money in improving the shit schools or you invest time and money in closing them and increasing capacity in the good schools (hoping the 'good' schools remain good over time).

    Neither option comes without cost.
    There will always be shit schools, because as quality improves so too do expectations. What was good enough in the past shouldn't be considered acceptable in the future.

    Progress works very often by trimming the bottom or worst performers and lifting your expectations.

    Have a well-funded education system with choice that enables schools to expand and lets parents shop around for which school they want to take their kids to, and let standards be higher.

    Todays mediocre school might cut the mustard today, but if other schools improve and it doesn't, then it might be considered the shit school in the future, in which case it would either have to shape up or lose its children.

    Competition works.
    Competition costs money - and the Government can't afford to waste that amount of money....

    hence with pupil numbers starting to fall, DfE are checking numbers to see if some schools can be shrunk / closed..
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,494

    IanB2 said:

    The Tories are going to lose so many council seats in May. These seats were the ones that should have been contested in 2020, but elections were delayed until 2021 because of Covid. The Tories did very well that year, NEV was Con 40%, Lab 30%. A repeat of 2023 would mean an 8 or 9% swing* - shellacking territory.

    Using this as a stepping stone to an autumn election would be a less than ideal strategy for Sunak.

    So, the argument here is that in order to avoid an 8-9% swing against them, and the concomitant shellacking in the May local elections*, they should take a 9-10% swing against them at a general election and hence an even bigger shellacking? I think I can see a problem in that?

    * Not that it would; it would just mask those losses.
    The argument is threefold. Firstly, having the GE and LE concurrently will make the LE results less bad, as there are many Tories not inclined to bother voting in an LE who would turn out at a GE. Secondly, appallingly bad LE results will poison the rest of the year for the Tories, providing a poor backdrop to a following GE. And thirdly, the LE disaster would put Sunak’s leadership into the spotlight at the worst possible time.
    Against which,
    - No 10 won't give a stuff about the local election results, if held on the same day as a GE drubbing.
    - The rest of the year is going to be poisoned anyway, but would be made even worse by an appallingly bad *GE* drubbing;
    - I agree that bad LE results set (or play into) a bad narrative. But the problem is the underlying position, not the revelation of it;
    - A LE disaster would put Sunak's leadership into the spotlight. But a GE disaster would do so even more. Why choose the latter over the former?
    given what local councils are up for election in 2024 the Tories won't care too much. it's mainly councils already run by Labour anyway. their only big loss would be Andy Street as WM Mayor
  • PJHPJH Posts: 645

    Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    You jest, but that in part has already happened with academies etc which in part is why the education system is coping as well as it is in my view despite the DfE and despite Ofsted and despite the poor level of funding.

    We should also encourage and enable more parents to drive their kids to school too. End the postcode lottery of having to go to crap schools that are in walking distance, if a better school is a drive away, then choose that one instead.
    FFS that is so disconnected from the reality of many parents who may not have a car, or need their car to get to work, or both work full-time so don't have time to ferry their kids to school, or can't afford the fuel and mileage.

    To say nothing on the effect on roads, rush-hour, the environment, children's health,...

    It's already bad enough with the middle-class yummy-mummies in their 4x4 driving from one end of the village to save Johnny having to walk to school at the other end.

    Rant over. You're welcome.
    Its a shame if parents can't afford a car or fuel, which is why we should seek to make cars and their fuel (ideally electricity in the future) as cheap as possible so that there is as little a barrier as possible to private transportation.

    Yes people do need to go to work, but most schools in my experience offer before and after school clubs. I drive my kids and drop them off at club if I can't drop them off at the school gate.

    As for those yummy-mummies driving their kids to school - good on them! They should be praised for taking an interest in their kids education. 👏👏👏
    Nice trolling!
    Deadly serious.

    I could walk my kids to the school next to my estate, but its not got a good reputation and I value my kids education more than I value the cost of fuel. So I drive much further to drive them into a better school (still a state school btw).

    I have more respect for parents who value their children's education and drive them to school than I do parents who view education as no more than childcare and dump them without thinking about it at the nearest drop-off point.
    Fair enough, but of course it's not the parents you despise who suffer.
    Quite right, nobody "suffers".

    And I don't despise anyone, just don't respect them.
    Their children "suffer", going to what inevitably becomes a sink school as all the parents with the means to take their children elsewhere do so.

    Now you may say 'that's the market' but the consumers are not the ones choosing the product.

    Anyhow, it's other people's kids so why should you care?
    Nobody has to go to a sink school and if nobody chooses to go to a school it should shut down.

    If the children of parents who don't give a damn end up going to shitty schools because their parents don't care, that's their parents fault, not my fault.

    Why should I send my child to a shit school just to even it out?
    That only works if you have quite a lot of spare capacity in the system. Enough that it's realistic for everyone at the sink school to leave.

    We could fund that, I suppose, but it would be awfully expensive.

    (One of the reasons that school choice doesn't really work is that good schools often don't want to expand. Partly because of physical limits, but also because many heads would rather run a smaller school really well in a hands on way than a larger one where they never leave their office.

    Winchester College, to take a non random example, has 700 boys.
    The logical extension of this is that in urban areas at least, most parents would want their children to go to the same school. So in our area, that would mean Coopers Coburn would take about 80% of Havering's senior school intake (and presumably half of Thurrock's) and you'd have to size and fund it accordingly.

    And then what happens, when that school declines, as it will, and all the others have closed? Or do you fund the others to the same capacity so when suddenly the other schools with about 10 pupils per class start doing really well as a result, everyone switches school?

    (And with that, I really must get on...)
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,009
    IanB2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I'm trying to do a proper day's work, sending a trillion emails, and most of them bounce back saying "Oh, I'm out of the office until January 8th"

    JANUARY THE FUCKING 8TH

    No wonder this country is in the khazi

    By January 8th it will be too late and I'll be by a pool in the tropics

    GET BACK TO FUCKING WORK

    Only losers work the days between Christmas and New Year.

    You need a better job.
    No it's a great time to work. Spend a few hours tinkering with speadsheets when nobody will bother you and save your precious annual leave for doing something fun when the weather is better.
    Back in the old pre-WFH days I used to particularly enjoy the City during the dead fortnight encompassing Christmas and New Year. Few around, no stress, just tinker around a bit with this and that, long lunch, early exit, and all on full pay. I hardly ever took it as holiday.
    In my working days, I was the same. Similarly Xmas Eve. Taking the day off was a waste of a day’s holiday, when all you had to do was pitch up in the morning, gossip with colleagues about your Xmas plans, and then b***er off home again early afternoon,
    We used to be instructed to leave the office at around lunchtime. These days I WFH on Christmas Eve and actually do more than if I was in the office. I even managed some compulsory on-line training modules that had been hanging over me for a few months. I jacked it in around 3pm.

    We used to have to take 3 days annual leave between Christmas and New Year, but with the ability to WFH we can now work if we have something billable to do. We can even work on the bank holidays and take them on other dates if we so wish. Again, only if you have something productive to work on.
  • eek said:

    .

    Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    You jest, but that in part has already happened with academies etc which in part is why the education system is coping as well as it is in my view despite the DfE and despite Ofsted and despite the poor level of funding.

    We should also encourage and enable more parents to drive their kids to school too. End the postcode lottery of having to go to crap schools that are in walking distance, if a better school is a drive away, then choose that one instead.
    FFS that is so disconnected from the reality of many parents who may not have a car, or need their car to get to work, or both work full-time so don't have time to ferry their kids to school, or can't afford the fuel and mileage.

    To say nothing on the effect on roads, rush-hour, the environment, children's health,...

    It's already bad enough with the middle-class yummy-mummies in their 4x4 driving from one end of the village to save Johnny having to walk to school at the other end.

    Rant over. You're welcome.
    Its a shame if parents can't afford a car or fuel, which is why we should seek to make cars and their fuel (ideally electricity in the future) as cheap as possible so that there is as little a barrier as possible to private transportation.

    Yes people do need to go to work, but most schools in my experience offer before and after school clubs. I drive my kids and drop them off at club if I can't drop them off at the school gate.

    As for those yummy-mummies driving their kids to school - good on them! They should be praised for taking an interest in their kids education. 👏👏👏
    Nice trolling!
    Deadly serious.

    I could walk my kids to the school next to my estate, but its not got a good reputation and I value my kids education more than I value the cost of fuel. So I drive much further to drive them into a better school (still a state school btw).

    I have more respect for parents who value their children's education and drive them to school than I do parents who view education as no more than childcare and dump them without thinking about it at the nearest drop-off point.
    Fair enough, but of course it's not the parents you despise who suffer.
    Quite right, nobody "suffers".

    And I don't despise anyone, just don't respect them.
    Their children "suffer", going to what inevitably becomes a sink school as all the parents with the means to take their children elsewhere do so.

    Now you may say 'that's the market' but the consumers are not the ones choosing the product.

    Anyhow, it's other people's kids so why should you care?
    Nobody has to go to a sink school and if nobody chooses to go to a school it should shut down.

    If the children of parents who don't give a damn end up going to shitty schools because their parents don't care, that's their parents fault, not my fault.

    Why should I send my child to a shit school just to even it out?
    No, I'm not suggesting you send your children to a shit school. Far from it.

    I'm just trying to point out that driving your child to a better school miles away isn't an option for a lot of people.
    And I'm saying it should be.

    We should remove as many barriers as possible that stand in the way of parents putting their children's education first.
    eek said:

    Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    You jest, but that in part has already happened with academies etc which in part is why the education system is coping as well as it is in my view despite the DfE and despite Ofsted and despite the poor level of funding.

    We should also encourage and enable more parents to drive their kids to school too. End the postcode lottery of having to go to crap schools that are in walking distance, if a better school is a drive away, then choose that one instead.
    FFS that is so disconnected from the reality of many parents who may not have a car, or need their car to get to work, or both work full-time so don't have time to ferry their kids to school, or can't afford the fuel and mileage.

    To say nothing on the effect on roads, rush-hour, the environment, children's health,...

    It's already bad enough with the middle-class yummy-mummies in their 4x4 driving from one end of the village to save Johnny having to walk to school at the other end.

    Rant over. You're welcome.
    Its a shame if parents can't afford a car or fuel, which is why we should seek to make cars and their fuel (ideally electricity in the future) as cheap as possible so that there is as little a barrier as possible to private transportation.

    Yes people do need to go to work, but most schools in my experience offer before and after school clubs. I drive my kids and drop them off at club if I can't drop them off at the school gate.

    As for those yummy-mummies driving their kids to school - good on them! They should be praised for taking an interest in their kids education. 👏👏👏
    Nice trolling!
    Deadly serious.

    I could walk my kids to the school next to my estate, but its not got a good reputation and I value my kids education more than I value the cost of fuel. So I drive much further to drive them into a better school (still a state school btw).

    I have more respect for parents who value their children's education and drive them to school than I do parents who view education as no more than childcare and dump them without thinking about it at the nearest drop-off point.
    Fair enough, but of course it's not the parents you despise who suffer.
    Quite right, nobody "suffers".

    And I don't despise anyone, just don't respect them.
    Their children "suffer", going to what inevitably becomes a sink school as all the parents with the means to take their children elsewhere do so.

    Now you may say 'that's the market' but the consumers are not the ones choosing the product.

    Anyhow, it's other people's kids so why should you care?
    Nobody has to go to a sink school and if nobody chooses to go to a school it should shut down.

    If the children of parents who don't give a damn end up going to shitty schools because their parents don't care, that's their parents fault, not my fault.

    Why should I send my child to a shit school just to even it out?
    Um, clearly you are in an area where there are more school spaces than pupils wanting a space.

    Round this neck of the woods you choice of primary school is determined by where you live as the number of children wanting a space is greater than the spaces available - hence you get a choice of the school you are given with zero chance of an appeal working.
    That's a terrible situation to be in and should be fixed.
    One of those barriers is having shit schools, which is what Ofsted is supposed to prevent. (Unfortunately we have a shit Ofsted too.)

    Driving kids to a better school doesn't deal with the shit a school, which still remains.

    Either you invest time and money in improving the shit schools or you invest time and money in closing them and increasing capacity in the good schools (hoping the 'good' schools remain good over time).

    Neither option comes without cost.
    There will always be shit schools, because as quality improves so too do expectations. What was good enough in the past shouldn't be considered acceptable in the future.

    Progress works very often by trimming the bottom or worst performers and lifting your expectations.

    Have a well-funded education system with choice that enables schools to expand and lets parents shop around for which school they want to take their kids to, and let standards be higher.

    Todays mediocre school might cut the mustard today, but if other schools improve and it doesn't, then it might be considered the shit school in the future, in which case it would either have to shape up or lose its children.

    Competition works.
    Competition costs money - and the Government can't afford to waste that amount of money....
    Waste and bureaucracy and nonsense costs money too.

    Investing in education is not a waste of money.

    Abolish the DFE, cut out nonsense, and give control of the increased purse-strings to parents.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,244

    It’s probably too late to save Ofsted. It has fouled its own underpants. The smell will be impossible to shift.

    A fresh LA led approach. Something considered, consensual, and reflective is required.

    Good header though. The retaining of Ofsted is the only point I disagree with.

    The entire DfE would be good candidates for the first manned landing on the Sun.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,367
    spudgfsh said:

    IanB2 said:

    The Tories are going to lose so many council seats in May. These seats were the ones that should have been contested in 2020, but elections were delayed until 2021 because of Covid. The Tories did very well that year, NEV was Con 40%, Lab 30%. A repeat of 2023 would mean an 8 or 9% swing* - shellacking territory.

    Using this as a stepping stone to an autumn election would be a less than ideal strategy for Sunak.

    So, the argument here is that in order to avoid an 8-9% swing against them, and the concomitant shellacking in the May local elections*, they should take a 9-10% swing against them at a general election and hence an even bigger shellacking? I think I can see a problem in that?

    * Not that it would; it would just mask those losses.
    The argument is threefold. Firstly, having the GE and LE concurrently will make the LE results less bad, as there are many Tories not inclined to bother voting in an LE who would turn out at a GE. Secondly, appallingly bad LE results will poison the rest of the year for the Tories, providing a poor backdrop to a following GE. And thirdly, the LE disaster would put Sunak’s leadership into the spotlight at the worst possible time.
    Against which,
    - No 10 won't give a stuff about the local election results, if held on the same day as a GE drubbing.
    - The rest of the year is going to be poisoned anyway, but would be made even worse by an appallingly bad *GE* drubbing;
    - I agree that bad LE results set (or play into) a bad narrative. But the problem is the underlying position, not the revelation of it;
    - A LE disaster would put Sunak's leadership into the spotlight. But a GE disaster would do so even more. Why choose the latter over the former?
    given what local councils are up for election in 2024 the Tories won't care too much. it's mainly councils already run by Labour anyway. their only big loss would be Andy Street as WM Mayor
    Ben Houchen in Teesside is a possibility as well (although I suspect he will win with a very small majority regardless of the smell emitting from Teesworks)..
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    edited December 2023

    .

    Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    You jest, but that in part has already happened with academies etc which in part is why the education system is coping as well as it is in my view despite the DfE and despite Ofsted and despite the poor level of funding.

    We should also encourage and enable more parents to drive their kids to school too. End the postcode lottery of having to go to crap schools that are in walking distance, if a better school is a drive away, then choose that one instead.
    FFS that is so disconnected from the reality of many parents who may not have a car, or need their car to get to work, or both work full-time so don't have time to ferry their kids to school, or can't afford the fuel and mileage.

    To say nothing on the effect on roads, rush-hour, the environment, children's health,...

    It's already bad enough with the middle-class yummy-mummies in their 4x4 driving from one end of the village to save Johnny having to walk to school at the other end.

    Rant over. You're welcome.
    Its a shame if parents can't afford a car or fuel, which is why we should seek to make cars and their fuel (ideally electricity in the future) as cheap as possible so that there is as little a barrier as possible to private transportation.

    Yes people do need to go to work, but most schools in my experience offer before and after school clubs. I drive my kids and drop them off at club if I can't drop them off at the school gate.

    As for those yummy-mummies driving their kids to school - good on them! They should be praised for taking an interest in their kids education. 👏👏👏
    Nice trolling!
    Deadly serious.

    I could walk my kids to the school next to my estate, but its not got a good reputation and I value my kids education more than I value the cost of fuel. So I drive much further to drive them into a better school (still a state school btw).

    I have more respect for parents who value their children's education and drive them to school than I do parents who view education as no more than childcare and dump them without thinking about it at the nearest drop-off point.
    Fair enough, but of course it's not the parents you despise who suffer.
    Quite right, nobody "suffers".

    And I don't despise anyone, just don't respect them.
    Their children "suffer", going to what inevitably becomes a sink school as all the parents with the means to take their children elsewhere do so.

    Now you may say 'that's the market' but the consumers are not the ones choosing the product.

    Anyhow, it's other people's kids so why should you care?
    Nobody has to go to a sink school and if nobody chooses to go to a school it should shut down.

    If the children of parents who don't give a damn end up going to shitty schools because their parents don't care, that's their parents fault, not my fault.

    Why should I send my child to a shit school just to even it out?
    No, I'm not suggesting you send your children to a shit school. Far from it.

    I'm just trying to point out that driving your child to a better school miles away isn't an option for a lot of people.
    And I'm saying it should be.

    We should remove as many barriers as possible that stand in the way of parents putting their children's education first.
    eek said:

    Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    You jest, but that in part has already happened with academies etc which in part is why the education system is coping as well as it is in my view despite the DfE and despite Ofsted and despite the poor level of funding.

    We should also encourage and enable more parents to drive their kids to school too. End the postcode lottery of having to go to crap schools that are in walking distance, if a better school is a drive away, then choose that one instead.
    FFS that is so disconnected from the reality of many parents who may not have a car, or need their car to get to work, or both work full-time so don't have time to ferry their kids to school, or can't afford the fuel and mileage.

    To say nothing on the effect on roads, rush-hour, the environment, children's health,...

    It's already bad enough with the middle-class yummy-mummies in their 4x4 driving from one end of the village to save Johnny having to walk to school at the other end.

    Rant over. You're welcome.
    Its a shame if parents can't afford a car or fuel, which is why we should seek to make cars and their fuel (ideally electricity in the future) as cheap as possible so that there is as little a barrier as possible to private transportation.

    Yes people do need to go to work, but most schools in my experience offer before and after school clubs. I drive my kids and drop them off at club if I can't drop them off at the school gate.

    As for those yummy-mummies driving their kids to school - good on them! They should be praised for taking an interest in their kids education. 👏👏👏
    Nice trolling!
    Deadly serious.

    I could walk my kids to the school next to my estate, but its not got a good reputation and I value my kids education more than I value the cost of fuel. So I drive much further to drive them into a better school (still a state school btw).

    I have more respect for parents who value their children's education and drive them to school than I do parents who view education as no more than childcare and dump them without thinking about it at the nearest drop-off point.
    Fair enough, but of course it's not the parents you despise who suffer.
    Quite right, nobody "suffers".

    And I don't despise anyone, just don't respect them.
    Their children "suffer", going to what inevitably becomes a sink school as all the parents with the means to take their children elsewhere do so.

    Now you may say 'that's the market' but the consumers are not the ones choosing the product.

    Anyhow, it's other people's kids so why should you care?
    Nobody has to go to a sink school and if nobody chooses to go to a school it should shut down.

    If the children of parents who don't give a damn end up going to shitty schools because their parents don't care, that's their parents fault, not my fault.

    Why should I send my child to a shit school just to even it out?
    Um, clearly you are in an area where there are more school spaces than pupils wanting a space.

    Round this neck of the woods you choice of primary school is determined by where you live as the number of children wanting a space is greater than the spaces available - hence you get a choice of the school you are given with zero chance of an appeal working.
    That's a terrible situation to be in and should be fixed.
    One of those barriers is having shit schools, which is what Ofsted is supposed to prevent. (Unfortunately we have a shit Ofsted too.)

    Driving kids to a better school doesn't deal with the shit a school, which still remains.

    Either you invest time and money in improving the shit schools or you invest time and money in closing them and increasing capacity in the good schools (hoping the 'good' schools remain good over time).

    Neither option comes without cost.
    There will always be shit schools, because as quality improves so too do expectations. What was good enough in the past shouldn't be considered acceptable in the future.

    Progress works very often by trimming the bottom or worst performers and lifting your expectations.

    Have a well-funded education system with choice that enables schools to expand and lets parents shop around for which school they want to take their kids to, and let standards be higher.

    Todays mediocre school might cut the mustard today, but if other schools improve and it doesn't, then it might be considered the shit school in the future, in which case it would either have to shape up or lose its children.

    Competition works.
    Ok so we agree: more money for Education. What about the other big spend areas?

    Pensions: we should ditch the triple lock but I can't see any way to cut the cost in real terms (although we could of course recoup NI equivalent from wealthier pensioners.

    Health: even more important than education imo. What is the point in having a better 'standard of living' if we are not healthy? Health is vastly more important than more 'stuff' imo. Medium term I would hope for some health premium from AI in prevention, diagnosis, and medication (though not in care). But we spend less on health as a nation than our peers, so we should not expect reductions in health costs as a %GDP going forward.

    Welfare: We should strive to keep spend flat in real terms. Better health care can make a big difference here, especially investing more in mental healthcare services. But I can't see welfare spend come down in real terms.

    We should imo tax unhealthy foods heavily to drive better health and welfare outcomes (e.g. causes and impact of diabetes.)

    My conclusion is: taxes are going to need to rise further. No one seems to be prepared to face into that reality yet.
  • PJH said:

    Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    You jest, but that in part has already happened with academies etc which in part is why the education system is coping as well as it is in my view despite the DfE and despite Ofsted and despite the poor level of funding.

    We should also encourage and enable more parents to drive their kids to school too. End the postcode lottery of having to go to crap schools that are in walking distance, if a better school is a drive away, then choose that one instead.
    FFS that is so disconnected from the reality of many parents who may not have a car, or need their car to get to work, or both work full-time so don't have time to ferry their kids to school, or can't afford the fuel and mileage.

    To say nothing on the effect on roads, rush-hour, the environment, children's health,...

    It's already bad enough with the middle-class yummy-mummies in their 4x4 driving from one end of the village to save Johnny having to walk to school at the other end.

    Rant over. You're welcome.
    Its a shame if parents can't afford a car or fuel, which is why we should seek to make cars and their fuel (ideally electricity in the future) as cheap as possible so that there is as little a barrier as possible to private transportation.

    Yes people do need to go to work, but most schools in my experience offer before and after school clubs. I drive my kids and drop them off at club if I can't drop them off at the school gate.

    As for those yummy-mummies driving their kids to school - good on them! They should be praised for taking an interest in their kids education. 👏👏👏
    Nice trolling!
    Deadly serious.

    I could walk my kids to the school next to my estate, but its not got a good reputation and I value my kids education more than I value the cost of fuel. So I drive much further to drive them into a better school (still a state school btw).

    I have more respect for parents who value their children's education and drive them to school than I do parents who view education as no more than childcare and dump them without thinking about it at the nearest drop-off point.
    Fair enough, but of course it's not the parents you despise who suffer.
    Quite right, nobody "suffers".

    And I don't despise anyone, just don't respect them.
    Their children "suffer", going to what inevitably becomes a sink school as all the parents with the means to take their children elsewhere do so.

    Now you may say 'that's the market' but the consumers are not the ones choosing the product.

    Anyhow, it's other people's kids so why should you care?
    Nobody has to go to a sink school and if nobody chooses to go to a school it should shut down.

    If the children of parents who don't give a damn end up going to shitty schools because their parents don't care, that's their parents fault, not my fault.

    Why should I send my child to a shit school just to even it out?
    That only works if you have quite a lot of spare capacity in the system. Enough that it's realistic for everyone at the sink school to leave.

    We could fund that, I suppose, but it would be awfully expensive.

    (One of the reasons that school choice doesn't really work is that good schools often don't want to expand. Partly because of physical limits, but also because many heads would rather run a smaller school really well in a hands on way than a larger one where they never leave their office.

    Winchester College, to take a non random example, has 700 boys.
    The logical extension of this is that in urban areas at least, most parents would want their children to go to the same school. So in our area, that would mean Coopers Coburn would take about 80% of Havering's senior school intake (and presumably half of Thurrock's) and you'd have to size and fund it accordingly.

    And then what happens, when that school declines, as it will, and all the others have closed? Or do you fund the others to the same capacity so when suddenly the other schools with about 10 pupils per class start doing really well as a result, everyone switches school?

    (And with that, I really must get on...)
    Don't be silly, not everyone has the same tastes or makes the same choices.

    Does everyone in your urban area shop in the same supermarket? Get their clothes from the same store? Has all but one supermarket, clothing store and every other type of store shut down in the entire urban area leaving only one remaining?

    People will make their choices and do what is right for them. What is right for me may not be right for my neighbour with different beliefs or otherwise, let alone what is right for someone across town.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,009

    The Tories are going to lose so many council seats in May. These seats were the ones that should have been contested in 2020, but elections were delayed until 2021 because of Covid. The Tories did very well that year, NEV was Con 40%, Lab 30%. A repeat of 2023 would mean an 8 or 9% swing* - shellacking territory.

    Using this as a stepping stone to an autumn election would be a less than ideal strategy for Sunak.

    So, the argument here is that in order to avoid an 8-9% swing against them, and the concomitant shellacking in the May local elections*, they should take a 9-10% swing against them at a general election and hence an even bigger shellacking? I think I can see a problem in that?

    * Not that it would; it would just mask those losses.
    If the GE is on the same day as the locals, then I don't think that the results in the locals will end up the same as they would be in stand alone elections. Much higher turnout, national high profile campaigns, less focus on local issues.

    Anyway, my argument is that having disastrous local election results as a backdrop makes the Tories' job of tightening the polls even harder than it would be anyway.
    Even if both points are true (and I wouldn't argue against them), that's like saying that the best way to stop the Titanic sinking as a result of hitting the iceberg is to slam a torpedo into her.
    I know that I am guilty of wishcasting. I want the Tories out ASAP so am constructing an argument that fits that narrative.
  • Thanks for the interesting and informative header @ydoethur. Ofsted is clearly a pretty broken organisation. I'm not sure what the answer is. As a parent with three kids in the state sector I've been pretty happy with the education our kids have received, but there is clearly a problem with teacher retention, presumably at least in part pay related; class sizes are too big; and something seems to have gone awry with how English is taught compared to when I was at school, that seems to have sucked all the joy out of it. So my main diagnosis is not enough money and too much Michael Gove. Fix that and the system would be pretty good I think.
    I wonder whether the threat of external inspection is maybe quite effective at maintaining standards even if the inspections themselves are crap. Perhaps Ofsted doesn't need to be good, it just needs to exist?
  • PJH said:

    Abolish the Department of Education and privatise the state education system.

    Private schools are the best.

    The money we spend on the DfE give it to parents as vouchers so they can send their sprogs to the best schools.

    End the postcode lottery.

    You jest, but that in part has already happened with academies etc which in part is why the education system is coping as well as it is in my view despite the DfE and despite Ofsted and despite the poor level of funding.

    We should also encourage and enable more parents to drive their kids to school too. End the postcode lottery of having to go to crap schools that are in walking distance, if a better school is a drive away, then choose that one instead.
    FFS that is so disconnected from the reality of many parents who may not have a car, or need their car to get to work, or both work full-time so don't have time to ferry their kids to school, or can't afford the fuel and mileage.

    To say nothing on the effect on roads, rush-hour, the environment, children's health,...

    It's already bad enough with the middle-class yummy-mummies in their 4x4 driving from one end of the village to save Johnny having to walk to school at the other end.

    Rant over. You're welcome.
    Its a shame if parents can't afford a car or fuel, which is why we should seek to make cars and their fuel (ideally electricity in the future) as cheap as possible so that there is as little a barrier as possible to private transportation.

    Yes people do need to go to work, but most schools in my experience offer before and after school clubs. I drive my kids and drop them off at club if I can't drop them off at the school gate.

    As for those yummy-mummies driving their kids to school - good on them! They should be praised for taking an interest in their kids education. 👏👏👏
    Nice trolling!
    Deadly serious.

    I could walk my kids to the school next to my estate, but its not got a good reputation and I value my kids education more than I value the cost of fuel. So I drive much further to drive them into a better school (still a state school btw).

    I have more respect for parents who value their children's education and drive them to school than I do parents who view education as no more than childcare and dump them without thinking about it at the nearest drop-off point.
    Fair enough, but of course it's not the parents you despise who suffer.
    Quite right, nobody "suffers".

    And I don't despise anyone, just don't respect them.
    Their children "suffer", going to what inevitably becomes a sink school as all the parents with the means to take their children elsewhere do so.

    Now you may say 'that's the market' but the consumers are not the ones choosing the product.

    Anyhow, it's other people's kids so why should you care?
    Nobody has to go to a sink school and if nobody chooses to go to a school it should shut down.

    If the children of parents who don't give a damn end up going to shitty schools because their parents don't care, that's their parents fault, not my fault.

    Why should I send my child to a shit school just to even it out?
    That only works if you have quite a lot of spare capacity in the system. Enough that it's realistic for everyone at the sink school to leave.

    We could fund that, I suppose, but it would be awfully expensive.

    (One of the reasons that school choice doesn't really work is that good schools often don't want to expand. Partly because of physical limits, but also because many heads would rather run a smaller school really well in a hands on way than a larger one where they never leave their office.

    Winchester College, to take a non random example, has 700 boys.
    The logical extension of this is that in urban areas at least, most parents would want their children to go to the same school. So in our area, that would mean Coopers Coburn would take about 80% of Havering's senior school intake (and presumably half of Thurrock's) and you'd have to size and fund it accordingly.

    And then what happens, when that school declines, as it will, and all the others have closed? Or do you fund the others to the same capacity so when suddenly the other schools with about 10 pupils per class start doing really well as a result, everyone switches school?

    (And with that, I really must get on...)
    And if they did that, it wouldn't be the school it currently is. Partly because a school that big would be a very different beast. But mostly because the intake makes a huge difference to the success or otherwise of schools, so it would become the thing that parents were fleeing from.

    A lot of the success of Inner London schools in the years around 2000 was down to gentrification and convincing parents that state schools were safe to use by relaunching them as a academies, creating a virtuous cycle.
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