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I agree with Tory MP Alexander Stafford – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,214
edited January 1 in General
I agree with Tory MP Alexander Stafford – politicalbetting.com

Betting markets aren't so sure…April – Jun 2024 Election now 2/1 (from 5/2 this morning) https://t.co/FOE68IWCLt

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Comments

  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Couple of points on this morning’s interesting discussions:

    Hull had its first wave in November 2020 and the schools stayed open, indeed were not allowed to close (though years groups were sometimes sent home). Schools coped and teaching and learning continued in the classroom for the majority. Personally, I would have vaccinated teachers early on in 2021 and avoided any further talk of schools closing.

    On house building, theoretical productivity per annum may be irrelevant if a bricklayer can earn a good living without working every hour god sends.

    Ok, I'll buy it. How did Hull avoid the state-mandated lockdown in March 2020 and the virus for another eight months?

    Did Kingston Communications not take calls from Whitehall?
    Hull did indeed have the mandated lockdown from March through to July but infections were very low… they then had a big spike in the November, when schools were back open, which pre-dated the Kent variant. See chart.


    Ok, having got that clarification:

    1) Everywhere had a big spike in November 2020. Most schools stayed open. This was extremely difficult, not least because the money needed to keep them open and pay for supply teachers, disinfectant etc was promised but only rarely forthcoming. The disruption inside them was also extensive, particularly with classes losing members and/or whole groups. The damage of dogmatically keeping them open for all students rather than showing some flexibility on this point to keep things going as well as possible probably did more damage in the long run than full closures would have done.

    2) Your own figures show a biggish spike in March in Hull. As nationally, this was likely underreported due to the inadequacy of the testing regime. I don't think you can say 'November was the first wave.'

    3) It wasn't just about vaccinating teachers, as I patiently made clear at the time. In fact, although teachers were at fairly high risk of exposure they were at comparatively low risk of dying as due to our government's longstanding incompetence they tend to be quite a bit younger than the average population. The issue was with in school transmission sending it rampaging through the community. My exact words were 'it's no use having teachers vaccinated so we can reopen schools if the price of that is dead parents.'

    4) Finally, since schools were actually reopened well in advance of the vaccine programme getting anywhere near most teachers, never mind children, following a decision by the drunken weirdos of the DfE to reopen on 8th March come what may (a decision which was taken at the start of February and leaked to The Times) and there was never any serious talk of closing them again, your argument on 'vaccinating early in 2021' fails anyway.
    1) Money not being forthcoming is a choice - a bad choice - and money should be forthcoming for education and would have cost magnitudes less than lockdown did.

    3) Using the logic that teachers are young, so not very high risk, the same is true with parents too. Parents tend to be younger adults. Parents of kids at school today are far, far more likely to be Millenials than Boomers. Far more likely is the price would be dead great-grandparents or grandparents. Grandparents and great-grandparents are to be cherished, but their grandchildren's or great-grandchildren's education is not something to be sacrificed to prolong their life.

    4) 8th March 2021 was absolutely not the time to be opening schools, I completely agree. Schools should have been open - and remained open - from March 2020 onwards instead, with 2020 hindsight.
    It's not about whether the time was 'right' or not. As it happened, the reopening went ahead without ill effects.

    The issue was, as always through the pandemic, it was being made for all the wrong reasons.
    Completely agreed.

    If the right reasons were being used, we'd have never closed schools in the first place.

    The first lockdown was perhaps excusable, people didn't know what was going on. But by the second lockdown onwards, we knew children weren't at any great risk themselves - so sacrificing their education in order to prolong the lives of others was a sick and twisted choice.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,155
    Not that I bet, but my heart wants a spring election and therefore my head thinks an autumn one more likely...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127
    Some communications from the DoH suggest May is the plan too.

    I have a modest bet on it being May.
  • Hot take - there ain't going to be a General Election in May. Instead budget is early so that people will feel the benefits of it in their pay packets for longer. It's the Conservative way - the quicker we can get money back to the people the better!
    https://twitter.com/Alex_Stafford/status/1739991409565028456
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    Two things.
    Yes kids on farms are often a bit weird.

    And
    We let down children all the time. When it suits us. Housing is out of reach, most will never own a home. Mental health services are low priority. Total lack of concern for the climate. Piling debt on debt. Massive rise in child poverty.

    But it’s a disaster if we panic in a pandemic and lockdown schools for a few months?

    They look a bit selective, these complaints.
    Lets see for me.

    1: Housing is for me the number one problem in this country that needs fixing.
    2: Ironic, the claim is that there's more priorities than just healthcare and you want to talk about healthcare.
    3: I care about the climate and want to address climate change with an investment in clean technologies.
    4: I oppose piling debt on debt, indeed its why Brown was such a failure as we've discussed before.
    5: Not true.

    So housing, climate, debt and education - 4 out of 6 are priorities for me. Not a bad score.
    The three biggest problems in the UK are housing, housing, and housing.
    Housing availability, housing cost, housing quality.

    There is a shortage of accommodation in places (not everywhere). We need to build houses that communities need as opposed to houses the builders want to build. We see estates being thrown up with 4 bed + "executive style houses" where the need is affordable starter houses.

    The economy is screwed at least in a big part by housing costs. Mortgages are shooting up, rents are sky high - and landlords can't make a living either. Is anyone making money? We're spending so much, but what are we getting?

    We *have* to talk quality. Apartment blocks thrown up with "rapid-burn" panelling. Houses by the big housebuilders with no cavity insulation and endless snags that need fixing. We're building terrible housing.

    So yes, housing, housing, housing. But not more of the same. We need a rethink.
    Agree totally. There needs to be thinking outside the box, as there was after WWII, and find ways to construct cheap but quality housing. Recent attempts at alternative contstruction methods have been shut down by banks which won’t mortgage them.
    Government does, of course, have the power to obtain very cheap building land.

    Which is one way of building cheaper homes.
    Question - what stops councils buying up land, designing a layout, putting in services, then selling the plots to recoup costs?

    Obviously reposte - Woking. But in the boom times of the housing market, that would have been money for old rope.


    We (a local council ) are looking into this and it seems to be proble

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    Two things.
    Yes kids on farms are often a bit weird.

    And
    We let down children all the time. When it suits us. Housing is out of reach, most will never own a home. Mental health services are low priority. Total lack of concern for the climate. Piling debt on debt. Massive rise in child poverty.

    But it’s a disaster if we panic in a pandemic and lockdown schools for a few months?

    They look a bit selective, these complaints.
    Lets see for me.

    1: Housing is for me the number one problem in this country that needs fixing.
    2: Ironic, the claim is that there's more priorities than just healthcare and you want to talk about healthcare.
    3: I care about the climate and want to address climate change with an investment in clean technologies.
    4: I oppose piling debt on debt, indeed its why Brown was such a failure as we've discussed before.
    5: Not true.

    So housing, climate, debt and education - 4 out of 6 are priorities for me. Not a bad score.
    The three biggest problems in the UK are housing, housing, and housing.
    Housing availability, housing cost, housing quality.

    There is a shortage of accommodation in places (not everywhere). We need to build houses that communities need as opposed to houses the builders want to build. We see estates being thrown up with 4 bed + "executive style houses" where the need is affordable starter houses.

    The economy is screwed at least in a big part by housing costs. Mortgages are shooting up, rents are sky high - and landlords can't make a living either. Is anyone making money? We're spending so much, but what are we getting?

    We *have* to talk quality. Apartment blocks thrown up with "rapid-burn" panelling. Houses by the big housebuilders with no cavity insulation and endless snags that need fixing. We're building terrible housing.

    So yes, housing, housing, housing. But not more of the same. We need a rethink.
    Agree totally. There needs to be thinking outside the box, as there was after WWII, and find ways to construct cheap but quality housing. Recent attempts at alternative contstruction methods have been shut down by banks which won’t mortgage them.
    Government does, of course, have the power to obtain very cheap building land.

    Which is one way of building cheaper homes.
    Question - what stops councils buying up land, designing a layout, putting in services, then selling the plots to recoup costs?

    Obviously reposte - Woking. But in the boom times of the housing market, that would have been money for old rope.


    As a new councillor. This has been a thing for me. I will go with resources: frameworks, funding, capability, ambition, infrastructure.

    We can lay out a framework of standards for local provision but if it isn't saleable with 17% profit it isn't considered viable. His Majesty's Planning Inspectorate will tell us to do it again but cheaper.

    Electricity is in short supply. There is sewage spilling into our rivers. We don't want to make it worse and we can't get Severn Trent to take any interest in improving the service they manage. They are not our friends.

    As for DIY.
    I am told we would need £11m per year on top of all the available government grants to produce 250 affordable homes a year, and then we wouldn't have anyone to sell them to. We need land but we are not allowed to compulsorily purchase and definitely not below a fair price. Our projects are not ones we want to contemplate without meeting quality standards that the private sector isn't bothering with. Which makes us uncompetitive.

    its annoying.
    I'm aware that a change of government is immanent, and I want to be ready to take full advantage of opportunities but I cannot deal with the required infrastructure shortfall

    Labour have for some time floated the idea of giving LAs broader powers to compulsorily acquire land without paying ‘planning gain’, so ‘fair price’ might mean something very different indeed in a year’s time.
    How about just abolishing 'planning gain' in the first place, in which case everyone could build at an affordable price and not just politicians who answer to NIMBY electorates?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    May looks unlikely unless there’s a big change in the polling . There’s also the issue of the boats and the immigration figures .

    Sunak won’t call an election before he can say he’s ticked those boxes , if of course the flights take off and the next ONS update shows a big drop .
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730
    edited December 2023

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Couple of points on this morning’s interesting discussions:

    Hull had its first wave in November 2020 and the schools stayed open, indeed were not allowed to close (though years groups were sometimes sent home). Schools coped and teaching and learning continued in the classroom for the majority. Personally, I would have vaccinated teachers early on in 2021 and avoided any further talk of schools closing.

    On house building, theoretical productivity per annum may be irrelevant if a bricklayer can earn a good living without working every hour god sends.

    Ok, I'll buy it. How did Hull avoid the state-mandated lockdown in March 2020 and the virus for another eight months?

    Did Kingston Communications not take calls from Whitehall?
    Hull did indeed have the mandated lockdown from March through to July but infections were very low… they then had a big spike in the November, when schools were back open, which pre-dated the Kent variant. See chart.


    Ok, having got that clarification:

    1) Everywhere had a big spike in November 2020. Most schools stayed open. This was extremely difficult, not least because the money needed to keep them open and pay for supply teachers, disinfectant etc was promised but only rarely forthcoming. The disruption inside them was also extensive, particularly with classes losing members and/or whole groups. The damage of dogmatically keeping them open for all students rather than showing some flexibility on this point to keep things going as well as possible probably did more damage in the long run than full closures would have done.

    2) Your own figures show a biggish spike in March in Hull. As nationally, this was likely underreported due to the inadequacy of the testing regime. I don't think you can say 'November was the first wave.'

    3) It wasn't just about vaccinating teachers, as I patiently made clear at the time. In fact, although teachers were at fairly high risk of exposure they were at comparatively low risk of dying as due to our government's longstanding incompetence they tend to be quite a bit younger than the average population. The issue was with in school transmission sending it rampaging through the community. My exact words were 'it's no use having teachers vaccinated so we can reopen schools if the price of that is dead parents.'

    4) Finally, since schools were actually reopened well in advance of the vaccine programme getting anywhere near most teachers, never mind children, following a decision by the drunken weirdos of the DfE to reopen on 8th March come what may (a decision which was taken at the start of February and leaked to The Times) and there was never any serious talk of closing them again, your argument on 'vaccinating early in 2021' fails anyway.
    1) Money not being forthcoming is a choice - a bad choice - and money should be forthcoming for education and would have cost magnitudes less than lockdown did.

    3) Using the logic that teachers are young, so not very high risk, the same is true with parents too. Parents tend to be younger adults. Parents of kids at school today are far, far more likely to be Millenials than Boomers. Far more likely is the price would be dead great-grandparents or grandparents. Grandparents and great-grandparents are to be cherished, but their grandchildren's or great-grandchildren's education is not something to be sacrificed to prolong their life.

    4) 8th March 2021 was absolutely not the time to be opening schools, I completely agree. Schools should have been open - and remained open - from March 2020 onwards instead, with 2020 hindsight.
    It's not about whether the time was 'right' or not. As it happened, the reopening went ahead without ill effects.

    The issue was, as always through the pandemic, it was being made for all the wrong reasons.
    Completely agreed.

    If the right reasons were being used, we'd have never closed schools in the first place.

    The first lockdown was perhaps excusable, people didn't know what was going on. But by the second lockdown onwards, we knew children weren't at any great risk themselves - so sacrificing their education in order to prolong the lives of others was a sick and twisted choice.
    Schools were not functioning by December 2020. They were open in a zombiefied state. Not helped by the DfE declaring full lessons should be set for every child that was off that should not be simple duplicates of lessons in school which on top of covering for staff off literally required more hours than the day has.

    Trying to keep them fully open was impossible. And looked impossible even before Omicron Delta hit. We would have needed not merely to double the education budget but mobilise all qualified teachers on something akin to a military footing, taking over office blocks as nightingale schools.

    The real mistake was in not flexing from October onwards, to move to blended learning with the aim of trying to keep most people in school most of the time. It might not have been enough, but what was attempted was always going to lead to a collapse.

    As an aside, one of the really bad mistakes was not realising again in October that the 2021 exams wouldn't be going ahead. It was obvious that was out of the question and only a retard who hated children would think it possible. Unfortunately, we had Acland-Hood and Nick Gibb in charge.

    Other crazy things. OFSTED inspections continued. One actually forced a school to shut because they infected the entire SLT. They learned nothing from that, but justified the continued employment of 1700 people, most of whom, it now emerges, have not been trained in safeguarding. What was the point of that?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127
    edited December 2023
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Couple of points on this morning’s interesting discussions:

    Hull had its first wave in November 2020 and the schools stayed open, indeed were not allowed to close (though years groups were sometimes sent home). Schools coped and teaching and learning continued in the classroom for the majority. Personally, I would have vaccinated teachers early on in 2021 and avoided any further talk of schools closing.

    On house building, theoretical productivity per annum may be irrelevant if a bricklayer can earn a good living without working every hour god sends.

    Ok, I'll buy it. How did Hull avoid the state-mandated lockdown in March 2020 and the virus for another eight months?

    Did Kingston Communications not take calls from Whitehall?
    Hull did indeed have the mandated lockdown from March through to July but infections were very low… they then had a big spike in the November, when schools were back open, which pre-dated the Kent variant. See chart.


    Ok, having got that clarification:

    1) Everywhere had a big spike in November 2020. Most schools stayed open. This was extremely difficult, not least because the money needed to keep them open and pay for supply teachers, disinfectant etc was promised but only rarely forthcoming. The disruption inside them was also extensive, particularly with classes losing members and/or whole groups. The damage of dogmatically keeping them open for all students rather than showing some flexibility on this point to keep things going as well as possible probably did more damage in the long run than full closures would have done.

    2) Your own figures show a biggish spike in March in Hull. As nationally, this was likely underreported due to the inadequacy of the testing regime. I don't think you can say 'November was the first wave.'

    3) It wasn't just about vaccinating teachers, as I patiently made clear at the time. In fact, although teachers were at fairly high risk of exposure they were at comparatively low risk of dying as due to our government's longstanding incompetence they tend to be quite a bit younger than the average population. The issue was with in school transmission sending it rampaging through the community. My exact words were 'it's no use having teachers vaccinated so we can reopen schools if the price of that is dead parents.'

    4) Finally, since schools were actually reopened well in advance of the vaccine programme getting anywhere near most teachers, never mind children, following a decision by the drunken weirdos of the DfE to reopen on 8th March come what may (a decision which was taken at the start of February and leaked to The Times) and there was never any serious talk of closing them again, your argument on 'vaccinating early in 2021' fails anyway.
    1) Money not being forthcoming is a choice - a bad choice - and money should be forthcoming for education and would have cost magnitudes less than lockdown did.

    3) Using the logic that teachers are young, so not very high risk, the same is true with parents too. Parents tend to be younger adults. Parents of kids at school today are far, far more likely to be Millenials than Boomers. Far more likely is the price would be dead great-grandparents or grandparents. Grandparents and great-grandparents are to be cherished, but their grandchildren's or great-grandchildren's education is not something to be sacrificed to prolong their life.

    4) 8th March 2021 was absolutely not the time to be opening schools, I completely agree. Schools should have been open - and remained open - from March 2020 onwards instead, with 2020 hindsight.
    It's not about whether the time was 'right' or not. As it happened, the reopening went ahead without ill effects.

    The issue was, as always through the pandemic, it was being made for all the wrong reasons.
    Completely agreed.

    If the right reasons were being used, we'd have never closed schools in the first place.

    The first lockdown was perhaps excusable, people didn't know what was going on. But by the second lockdown onwards, we knew children weren't at any great risk themselves - so sacrificing their education in order to prolong the lives of others was a sick and twisted choice.
    Schools were not functioning by December 2020. They were open in a zombiefied state. Not helped by the DfE declaring full lessons should be set for every child that was off that should not be simple duplicates of lessons in school which on top of covering for staff off literally required more hours than the day has.

    Trying to keep them fully open was impossible. And looked impossible even before Omicron hit. We would have needed not merely to double the education budget but mobilise all qualified teachers on something akin to a military footing, taking over office blocks as nightingale schools.

    The real mistake was in not flexing from October onwards, to move to blended learning with the aim of trying to keep most people in school most of the time. It might not have been enough, but what was attempted was always going to lead to a collapse.

    As an aside, one of the really bad mistakes was not realising again in October that the 2021 exams wouldn't be going ahead. It was obvious that was out of the question and only a retard who hated children would think it possible. Unfortunately, we had Acland-Hood and Nick Gibb in charge.

    Other crazy things. OFSTED inspections continued. One actually forced a school to shut because they infected the entire SLT. They learned nothing from that, but justified the continued employment of 1700 people, most of whom, it now emerges, have not been trained in safeguarding. What was the point of that?
    Omicron was Dec 2021, it was the Kent variiant in winter 2020.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730

    Hot take - there ain't going to be a General Election in May. Instead budget is early so that people will feel the benefits of it in their pay packets for longer. It's the Conservative way - the quicker we can get money back to the people the better!
    https://twitter.com/Alex_Stafford/status/1739991409565028456

    If he believes the second he's deranged.

    If he doesn't believe the second, he's lying.

    So he's either deranged or lying.

    Everything is currently pointing to May.

    Given my track record, @Northern_Al needs to remortgage his house and put the lot on October.

    And my goodness, India are falling apart faster than a Post Office witness now.
  • pm215 said:

    Not that I bet, but my heart wants a spring election and therefore my head thinks an autumn one more likely...

    Sunak, I'm sure, would prefer a spring election, because that implies that Conservative poll ratings will be better by then. Thing is, that's insanely unlikely.

    As I highlighted last month, the scale of final year recovery the Conservatives need to even lose the next election narrowly has been achieved once - Labour ahead of 1970. I don't look at Sunak and think 'he's a Wilson-level operator'.

    https://twitter.com/Dylan_Difford/status/1734613079135326508

    But if a feel good (or more accurately, feel less bad) budget doesn't do the trick, what does he do? Any budget bounce will have dissipated by October.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Couple of points on this morning’s interesting discussions:

    Hull had its first wave in November 2020 and the schools stayed open, indeed were not allowed to close (though years groups were sometimes sent home). Schools coped and teaching and learning continued in the classroom for the majority. Personally, I would have vaccinated teachers early on in 2021 and avoided any further talk of schools closing.

    On house building, theoretical productivity per annum may be irrelevant if a bricklayer can earn a good living without working every hour god sends.

    Ok, I'll buy it. How did Hull avoid the state-mandated lockdown in March 2020 and the virus for another eight months?

    Did Kingston Communications not take calls from Whitehall?
    Hull did indeed have the mandated lockdown from March through to July but infections were very low… they then had a big spike in the November, when schools were back open, which pre-dated the Kent variant. See chart.


    Ok, having got that clarification:

    1) Everywhere had a big spike in November 2020. Most schools stayed open. This was extremely difficult, not least because the money needed to keep them open and pay for supply teachers, disinfectant etc was promised but only rarely forthcoming. The disruption inside them was also extensive, particularly with classes losing members and/or whole groups. The damage of dogmatically keeping them open for all students rather than showing some flexibility on this point to keep things going as well as possible probably did more damage in the long run than full closures would have done.

    2) Your own figures show a biggish spike in March in Hull. As nationally, this was likely underreported due to the inadequacy of the testing regime. I don't think you can say 'November was the first wave.'

    3) It wasn't just about vaccinating teachers, as I patiently made clear at the time. In fact, although teachers were at fairly high risk of exposure they were at comparatively low risk of dying as due to our government's longstanding incompetence they tend to be quite a bit younger than the average population. The issue was with in school transmission sending it rampaging through the community. My exact words were 'it's no use having teachers vaccinated so we can reopen schools if the price of that is dead parents.'

    4) Finally, since schools were actually reopened well in advance of the vaccine programme getting anywhere near most teachers, never mind children, following a decision by the drunken weirdos of the DfE to reopen on 8th March come what may (a decision which was taken at the start of February and leaked to The Times) and there was never any serious talk of closing them again, your argument on 'vaccinating early in 2021' fails anyway.
    1) Money not being forthcoming is a choice - a bad choice - and money should be forthcoming for education and would have cost magnitudes less than lockdown did.

    3) Using the logic that teachers are young, so not very high risk, the same is true with parents too. Parents tend to be younger adults. Parents of kids at school today are far, far more likely to be Millenials than Boomers. Far more likely is the price would be dead great-grandparents or grandparents. Grandparents and great-grandparents are to be cherished, but their grandchildren's or great-grandchildren's education is not something to be sacrificed to prolong their life.

    4) 8th March 2021 was absolutely not the time to be opening schools, I completely agree. Schools should have been open - and remained open - from March 2020 onwards instead, with 2020 hindsight.
    It's not about whether the time was 'right' or not. As it happened, the reopening went ahead without ill effects.

    The issue was, as always through the pandemic, it was being made for all the wrong reasons.
    Completely agreed.

    If the right reasons were being used, we'd have never closed schools in the first place.

    The first lockdown was perhaps excusable, people didn't know what was going on. But by the second lockdown onwards, we knew children weren't at any great risk themselves - so sacrificing their education in order to prolong the lives of others was a sick and twisted choice.
    Schools were not functioning by December 2020. They were open in a zombiefied state. Not helped by the DfE declaring full lessons should be set for every child that was off that should not be simple duplicates of lessons in school which on top of covering for staff off literally required more hours than the day has.

    Trying to keep them fully open was impossible. And looked impossible even before Omicron hit. We would have needed not merely to double the education budget but mobilise all qualified teachers on something akin to a military footing, taking over office blocks as nightingale schools.

    The real mistake was in not flexing from October onwards, to move to blended learning with the aim of trying to keep most people in school most of the time. It might not have been enough, but what was attempted was always going to lead to a collapse.

    As an aside, one of the really bad mistakes was not realising again in October that the 2021 exams wouldn't be going ahead. It was obvious that was out of the question and only a retard who hated children would think it possible. Unfortunately, we had Acland-Hood and Nick Gibb in charge.

    Other crazy things. OFSTED inspections continued. One actually forced a school to shut because they infected the entire SLT. They learned nothing from that, but justified the continued employment of 1700 people, most of whom, it now emerges, have not been trained in safeguarding. What was the point of that?
    Omicron was Dec 2021, it was Delta in winter 2020
    I was just testing...

    Shows how much time I had to pay attention to things!
  • Wow just saw the Indian scorecard. Only Kohli not-out achieved a half-century, and with 9 down only Gill other than Kohli achieved double-digits.

    Are we sure they're not England in disguise?
  • ydoethur said:

    Hot take - there ain't going to be a General Election in May. Instead budget is early so that people will feel the benefits of it in their pay packets for longer. It's the Conservative way - the quicker we can get money back to the people the better!
    https://twitter.com/Alex_Stafford/status/1739991409565028456

    If he believes the second he's deranged.

    If he doesn't believe the second, he's lying.

    So he's either deranged or lying.

    Everything is currently pointing to May.

    Given my track record, @Northern_Al needs to remortgage his house and put the lot on October.

    And my goodness, India are falling apart faster than a Post Office witness now.
    He's a Tory MP, isn't it likely he is both lying and deranged?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730

    Wow just saw the Indian scorecard. Only Kohli not-out achieved a half-century, and with 9 down only Gill other than Kohli achieved double-digits.

    Are we sure they're not England in disguise?

    KL Rahul 4 off 24.

    No, they're not England.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Couple of points on this morning’s interesting discussions:

    Hull had its first wave in November 2020 and the schools stayed open, indeed were not allowed to close (though years groups were sometimes sent home). Schools coped and teaching and learning continued in the classroom for the majority. Personally, I would have vaccinated teachers early on in 2021 and avoided any further talk of schools closing.

    On house building, theoretical productivity per annum may be irrelevant if a bricklayer can earn a good living without working every hour god sends.

    Ok, I'll buy it. How did Hull avoid the state-mandated lockdown in March 2020 and the virus for another eight months?

    Did Kingston Communications not take calls from Whitehall?
    Hull did indeed have the mandated lockdown from March through to July but infections were very low… they then had a big spike in the November, when schools were back open, which pre-dated the Kent variant. See chart.


    Ok, having got that clarification:

    1) Everywhere had a big spike in November 2020. Most schools stayed open. This was extremely difficult, not least because the money needed to keep them open and pay for supply teachers, disinfectant etc was promised but only rarely forthcoming. The disruption inside them was also extensive, particularly with classes losing members and/or whole groups. The damage of dogmatically keeping them open for all students rather than showing some flexibility on this point to keep things going as well as possible probably did more damage in the long run than full closures would have done.

    2) Your own figures show a biggish spike in March in Hull. As nationally, this was likely underreported due to the inadequacy of the testing regime. I don't think you can say 'November was the first wave.'

    3) It wasn't just about vaccinating teachers, as I patiently made clear at the time. In fact, although teachers were at fairly high risk of exposure they were at comparatively low risk of dying as due to our government's longstanding incompetence they tend to be quite a bit younger than the average population. The issue was with in school transmission sending it rampaging through the community. My exact words were 'it's no use having teachers vaccinated so we can reopen schools if the price of that is dead parents.'

    4) Finally, since schools were actually reopened well in advance of the vaccine programme getting anywhere near most teachers, never mind children, following a decision by the drunken weirdos of the DfE to reopen on 8th March come what may (a decision which was taken at the start of February and leaked to The Times) and there was never any serious talk of closing them again, your argument on 'vaccinating early in 2021' fails anyway.
    1) Money not being forthcoming is a choice - a bad choice - and money should be forthcoming for education and would have cost magnitudes less than lockdown did.

    3) Using the logic that teachers are young, so not very high risk, the same is true with parents too. Parents tend to be younger adults. Parents of kids at school today are far, far more likely to be Millenials than Boomers. Far more likely is the price would be dead great-grandparents or grandparents. Grandparents and great-grandparents are to be cherished, but their grandchildren's or great-grandchildren's education is not something to be sacrificed to prolong their life.

    4) 8th March 2021 was absolutely not the time to be opening schools, I completely agree. Schools should have been open - and remained open - from March 2020 onwards instead, with 2020 hindsight.
    It's not about whether the time was 'right' or not. As it happened, the reopening went ahead without ill effects.

    The issue was, as always through the pandemic, it was being made for all the wrong reasons.
    Completely agreed.

    If the right reasons were being used, we'd have never closed schools in the first place.

    The first lockdown was perhaps excusable, people didn't know what was going on. But by the second lockdown onwards, we knew children weren't at any great risk themselves - so sacrificing their education in order to prolong the lives of others was a sick and twisted choice.
    Schools were not functioning by December 2020. They were open in a zombiefied state. Not helped by the DfE declaring full lessons should be set for every child that was off that should not be simple duplicates of lessons in school which on top of covering for staff off literally required more hours than the day has.

    Trying to keep them fully open was impossible. And looked impossible even before Omicron hit. We would have needed not merely to double the education budget but mobilise all qualified teachers on something akin to a military footing, taking over office blocks as nightingale schools.

    The real mistake was in not flexing from October onwards, to move to blended learning with the aim of trying to keep most people in school most of the time. It might not have been enough, but what was attempted was always going to lead to a collapse.

    As an aside, one of the really bad mistakes was not realising again in October that the 2021 exams wouldn't be going ahead. It was obvious that was out of the question and only a retard who hated children would think it possible. Unfortunately, we had Acland-Hood and Nick Gibb in charge.

    Other crazy things. OFSTED inspections continued. One actually forced a school to shut because they infected the entire SLT. They learned nothing from that, but justified the continued employment of 1700 people, most of whom, it now emerges, have not been trained in safeguarding. What was the point of that?
    Omicron was Dec 2021, it was Delta in winter 2020
    I was just testing...

    Shows how much time I had to pay attention to things!
    I edited, because Delta came from India in Spring 2021.

    It all becomes rather a blur, but was horrible to be part of.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Couple of points on this morning’s interesting discussions:

    Hull had its first wave in November 2020 and the schools stayed open, indeed were not allowed to close (though years groups were sometimes sent home). Schools coped and teaching and learning continued in the classroom for the majority. Personally, I would have vaccinated teachers early on in 2021 and avoided any further talk of schools closing.

    On house building, theoretical productivity per annum may be irrelevant if a bricklayer can earn a good living without working every hour god sends.

    Ok, I'll buy it. How did Hull avoid the state-mandated lockdown in March 2020 and the virus for another eight months?

    Did Kingston Communications not take calls from Whitehall?
    Hull did indeed have the mandated lockdown from March through to July but infections were very low… they then had a big spike in the November, when schools were back open, which pre-dated the Kent variant. See chart.


    Ok, having got that clarification:

    1) Everywhere had a big spike in November 2020. Most schools stayed open. This was extremely difficult, not least because the money needed to keep them open and pay for supply teachers, disinfectant etc was promised but only rarely forthcoming. The disruption inside them was also extensive, particularly with classes losing members and/or whole groups. The damage of dogmatically keeping them open for all students rather than showing some flexibility on this point to keep things going as well as possible probably did more damage in the long run than full closures would have done.

    2) Your own figures show a biggish spike in March in Hull. As nationally, this was likely underreported due to the inadequacy of the testing regime. I don't think you can say 'November was the first wave.'

    3) It wasn't just about vaccinating teachers, as I patiently made clear at the time. In fact, although teachers were at fairly high risk of exposure they were at comparatively low risk of dying as due to our government's longstanding incompetence they tend to be quite a bit younger than the average population. The issue was with in school transmission sending it rampaging through the community. My exact words were 'it's no use having teachers vaccinated so we can reopen schools if the price of that is dead parents.'

    4) Finally, since schools were actually reopened well in advance of the vaccine programme getting anywhere near most teachers, never mind children, following a decision by the drunken weirdos of the DfE to reopen on 8th March come what may (a decision which was taken at the start of February and leaked to The Times) and there was never any serious talk of closing them again, your argument on 'vaccinating early in 2021' fails anyway.
    1) Money not being forthcoming is a choice - a bad choice - and money should be forthcoming for education and would have cost magnitudes less than lockdown did.

    3) Using the logic that teachers are young, so not very high risk, the same is true with parents too. Parents tend to be younger adults. Parents of kids at school today are far, far more likely to be Millenials than Boomers. Far more likely is the price would be dead great-grandparents or grandparents. Grandparents and great-grandparents are to be cherished, but their grandchildren's or great-grandchildren's education is not something to be sacrificed to prolong their life.

    4) 8th March 2021 was absolutely not the time to be opening schools, I completely agree. Schools should have been open - and remained open - from March 2020 onwards instead, with 2020 hindsight.
    It's not about whether the time was 'right' or not. As it happened, the reopening went ahead without ill effects.

    The issue was, as always through the pandemic, it was being made for all the wrong reasons.
    Completely agreed.

    If the right reasons were being used, we'd have never closed schools in the first place.

    The first lockdown was perhaps excusable, people didn't know what was going on. But by the second lockdown onwards, we knew children weren't at any great risk themselves - so sacrificing their education in order to prolong the lives of others was a sick and twisted choice.
    Schools were not functioning by December 2020. They were open in a zombiefied state. Not helped by the DfE declaring full lessons should be set for every child that was off that should not be simple duplicates of lessons in school which on top of covering for staff off literally required more hours than the day has.

    Trying to keep them fully open was impossible. And looked impossible even before Omicron hit. We would have needed not merely to double the education budget but mobilise all qualified teachers on something akin to a military footing, taking over office blocks as nightingale schools.

    The real mistake was in not flexing from October onwards, to move to blended learning with the aim of trying to keep most people in school most of the time. It might not have been enough, but what was attempted was always going to lead to a collapse.

    As an aside, one of the really bad mistakes was not realising again in October that the 2021 exams wouldn't be going ahead. It was obvious that was out of the question and only a retard who hated children would think it possible. Unfortunately, we had Acland-Hood and Nick Gibb in charge.

    Other crazy things. OFSTED inspections continued. One actually forced a school to shut because they infected the entire SLT. They learned nothing from that, but justified the continued employment of 1700 people, most of whom, it now emerges, have not been trained in safeguarding. What was the point of that?
    Omicron was Dec 2021, it was Delta in winter 2020
    I was just testing...

    Shows how much time I had to pay attention to things!
    I edited, because Delta came from India in Spring 2021.

    It all becomes rather a blur, but was horrible to be part of.
    So it wasn't just me!

    Didn't enjoy trying to keep schools open under impossible condition and I know you had it worse.

    Nice beer for Foxy day?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193
    edited December 2023

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    Two things.
    Yes kids on farms are often a bit weird.

    And
    We let down children all the time. When it suits us. Housing is out of reach, most will never own a home. Mental health services are low priority. Total lack of concern for the climate. Piling debt on debt. Massive rise in child poverty.

    But it’s a disaster if we panic in a pandemic and lockdown schools for a few months?

    They look a bit selective, these complaints.
    Lets see for me.

    1: Housing is for me the number one problem in this country that needs fixing.
    2: Ironic, the claim is that there's more priorities than just healthcare and you want to talk about healthcare.
    3: I care about the climate and want to address climate change with an investment in clean technologies.
    4: I oppose piling debt on debt, indeed its why Brown was such a failure as we've discussed before.
    5: Not true.

    So housing, climate, debt and education - 4 out of 6 are priorities for me. Not a bad score.
    The three biggest problems in the UK are housing, housing, and housing.
    Housing availability, housing cost, housing quality.

    There is a shortage of accommodation in places (not everywhere). We need to build houses that communities need as opposed to houses the builders want to build. We see estates being thrown up with 4 bed + "executive style houses" where the need is affordable starter houses.

    The economy is screwed at least in a big part by housing costs. Mortgages are shooting up, rents are sky high - and landlords can't make a living either. Is anyone making money? We're spending so much, but what are we getting?

    We *have* to talk quality. Apartment blocks thrown up with "rapid-burn" panelling. Houses by the big housebuilders with no cavity insulation and endless snags that need fixing. We're building terrible housing.

    So yes, housing, housing, housing. But not more of the same. We need a rethink.
    Agree totally. There needs to be thinking outside the box, as there was after WWII, and find ways to construct cheap but quality housing. Recent attempts at alternative contstruction methods have been shut down by banks which won’t mortgage them.
    Government does, of course, have the power to obtain very cheap building land.

    Which is one way of building cheaper homes.
    Question - what stops councils buying up land, designing a layout, putting in services, then selling the plots to recoup costs?

    Obviously reposte - Woking. But in the boom times of the housing market, that would have been money for old rope.


    We (a local council ) are looking into this and it seems to be proble

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    Two things.
    Yes kids on farms are often a bit weird.

    And
    We let down children all the time. When it suits us. Housing is out of reach, most will never own a home. Mental health services are low priority. Total lack of concern for the climate. Piling debt on debt. Massive rise in child poverty.

    But it’s a disaster if we panic in a pandemic and lockdown schools for a few months?

    They look a bit selective, these complaints.
    Lets see for me.

    1: Housing is for me the number one problem in this country that needs fixing.
    2: Ironic, the claim is that there's more priorities than just healthcare and you want to talk about healthcare.
    3: I care about the climate and want to address climate change with an investment in clean technologies.
    4: I oppose piling debt on debt, indeed its why Brown was such a failure as we've discussed before.
    5: Not true.

    So housing, climate, debt and education - 4 out of 6 are priorities for me. Not a bad score.
    The three biggest problems in the UK are housing, housing, and housing.
    Housing availability, housing cost, housing quality.

    There is a shortage of accommodation in places (not everywhere). We need to build houses that communities need as opposed to houses the builders want to build. We see estates being thrown up with 4 bed + "executive style houses" where the need is affordable starter houses.

    The economy is screwed at least in a big part by housing costs. Mortgages are shooting up, rents are sky high - and landlords can't make a living either. Is anyone making money? We're spending so much, but what are we getting?

    We *have* to talk quality. Apartment blocks thrown up with "rapid-burn" panelling. Houses by the big housebuilders with no cavity insulation and endless snags that need fixing. We're building terrible housing.

    So yes, housing, housing, housing. But not more of the same. We need a rethink.
    Agree totally. There needs to be thinking outside the box, as there was after WWII, and find ways to construct cheap but quality housing. Recent attempts at alternative contstruction methods have been shut down by banks which won’t mortgage them.
    Government does, of course, have the power to obtain very cheap building land.

    Which is one way of building cheaper homes.
    Question - what stops councils buying up land, designing a layout, putting in services, then selling the plots to recoup costs?

    Obviously reposte - Woking. But in the boom times of the housing market, that would have been money for old rope.


    As a new councillor. This has been a thing for me. I will go with resources: frameworks, funding, capability, ambition, infrastructure.

    We can lay out a framework of standards for local provision but if it isn't saleable with 17% profit it isn't considered viable. His Majesty's Planning Inspectorate will tell us to do it again but cheaper.

    Electricity is in short supply. There is sewage spilling into our rivers. We don't want to make it worse and we can't get Severn Trent to take any interest in improving the service they manage. They are not our friends.

    As for DIY.
    I am told we would need £11m per year on top of all the available government grants to produce 250 affordable homes a year, and then we wouldn't have anyone to sell them to. We need land but we are not allowed to compulsorily purchase and definitely not below a fair price. Our projects are not ones we want to contemplate without meeting quality standards that the private sector isn't bothering with. Which makes us uncompetitive.

    its annoying.
    I'm aware that a change of government is immanent, and I want to be ready to take full advantage of opportunities but I cannot deal with the required infrastructure shortfall

    Labour have for some time floated the idea of giving LAs broader powers to compulsorily acquire land without paying ‘planning gain’, so ‘fair price’ might mean something very different indeed in a year’s time.
    How about just abolishing 'planning gain' in the first place, in which case everyone could build at an affordable price and not just politicians who answer to NIMBY electorates?
    How do you ‘just abolish planning gain’ ?

    (Unless it’s your idea to abolish planning altogether ?)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,124

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    Two things.
    Yes kids on farms are often a bit weird.

    And
    We let down children all the time. When it suits us. Housing is out of reach, most will never own a home. Mental health services are low priority. Total lack of concern for the climate. Piling debt on debt. Massive rise in child poverty.

    But it’s a disaster if we panic in a pandemic and lockdown schools for a few months?

    They look a bit selective, these complaints.
    Lets see for me.

    1: Housing is for me the number one problem in this country that needs fixing.
    2: Ironic, the claim is that there's more priorities than just healthcare and you want to talk about healthcare.
    3: I care about the climate and want to address climate change with an investment in clean technologies.
    4: I oppose piling debt on debt, indeed its why Brown was such a failure as we've discussed before.
    5: Not true.

    So housing, climate, debt and education - 4 out of 6 are priorities for me. Not a bad score.
    The three biggest problems in the UK are housing, housing, and housing.
    Housing availability, housing cost, housing quality.

    There is a shortage of accommodation in places (not everywhere). We need to build houses that communities need as opposed to houses the builders want to build. We see estates being thrown up with 4 bed + "executive style houses" where the need is affordable starter houses.

    The economy is screwed at least in a big part by housing costs. Mortgages are shooting up, rents are sky high - and landlords can't make a living either. Is anyone making money? We're spending so much, but what are we getting?

    We *have* to talk quality. Apartment blocks thrown up with "rapid-burn" panelling. Houses by the big housebuilders with no cavity insulation and endless snags that need fixing. We're building terrible housing.

    So yes, housing, housing, housing. But not more of the same. We need a rethink.
    Agree totally. There needs to be thinking outside the box, as there was after WWII, and find ways to construct cheap but quality housing. Recent attempts at alternative contstruction methods have been shut down by banks which won’t mortgage them.
    Government does, of course, have the power to obtain very cheap building land.

    Which is one way of building cheaper homes.
    Question - what stops councils buying up land, designing a layout, putting in services, then selling the plots to recoup costs?

    Obviously reposte - Woking. But in the boom times of the housing market, that would have been money for old rope.


    We (a local council ) are looking into this and it seems to be proble

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    Two things.
    Yes kids on farms are often a bit weird.

    And
    We let down children all the time. When it suits us. Housing is out of reach, most will never own a home. Mental health services are low priority. Total lack of concern for the climate. Piling debt on debt. Massive rise in child poverty.

    But it’s a disaster if we panic in a pandemic and lockdown schools for a few months?

    They look a bit selective, these complaints.
    Lets see for me.

    1: Housing is for me the number one problem in this country that needs fixing.
    2: Ironic, the claim is that there's more priorities than just healthcare and you want to talk about healthcare.
    3: I care about the climate and want to address climate change with an investment in clean technologies.
    4: I oppose piling debt on debt, indeed its why Brown was such a failure as we've discussed before.
    5: Not true.

    So housing, climate, debt and education - 4 out of 6 are priorities for me. Not a bad score.
    The three biggest problems in the UK are housing, housing, and housing.
    Housing availability, housing cost, housing quality.

    There is a shortage of accommodation in places (not everywhere). We need to build houses that communities need as opposed to houses the builders want to build. We see estates being thrown up with 4 bed + "executive style houses" where the need is affordable starter houses.

    The economy is screwed at least in a big part by housing costs. Mortgages are shooting up, rents are sky high - and landlords can't make a living either. Is anyone making money? We're spending so much, but what are we getting?

    We *have* to talk quality. Apartment blocks thrown up with "rapid-burn" panelling. Houses by the big housebuilders with no cavity insulation and endless snags that need fixing. We're building terrible housing.

    So yes, housing, housing, housing. But not more of the same. We need a rethink.
    Agree totally. There needs to be thinking outside the box, as there was after WWII, and find ways to construct cheap but quality housing. Recent attempts at alternative contstruction methods have been shut down by banks which won’t mortgage them.
    Government does, of course, have the power to obtain very cheap building land.

    Which is one way of building cheaper homes.
    Question - what stops councils buying up land, designing a layout, putting in services, then selling the plots to recoup costs?

    Obviously reposte - Woking. But in the boom times of the housing market, that would have been money for old rope.


    As a new councillor. This has been a thing for me. I will go with resources: frameworks, funding, capability, ambition, infrastructure.

    We can lay out a framework of standards for local provision but if it isn't saleable with 17% profit it isn't considered viable. His Majesty's Planning Inspectorate will tell us to do it again but cheaper.

    Electricity is in short supply. There is sewage spilling into our rivers. We don't want to make it worse and we can't get Severn Trent to take any interest in improving the service they manage. They are not our friends.

    As for DIY.
    I am told we would need £11m per year on top of all the available government grants to produce 250 affordable homes a year, and then we wouldn't have anyone to sell them to. We need land but we are not allowed to compulsorily purchase and definitely not below a fair price. Our projects are not ones we want to contemplate without meeting quality standards that the private sector isn't bothering with. Which makes us uncompetitive.

    its annoying.
    I'm aware that a change of government is immanent, and I want to be ready to take full advantage of opportunities but I cannot deal with the required infrastructure shortfall

    Labour have for some time floated the idea of giving LAs broader powers to compulsorily acquire land without paying ‘planning gain’, so ‘fair price’ might mean something very different indeed in a year’s time.
    How about just abolishing 'planning gain' in the first place, in which case everyone could build at an affordable price and not just politicians who answer to NIMBY electorates?
    Any reason the council can’t buy non-building permitted land? Yes, the owners can try and hold out for the price for built on land. But the permission comes from the council….
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,286
    Foxy said:

    Some communications from the DoH suggest May is the plan too.

    I have a modest bet on it being May.

    The timing of the election is a political decision that only a very small number of people will be party to. The DoH may be making the correct assumption but you can't conclude that they are aware of Sunak's plans.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193
    On topic, has anyone ever heard of Alexander Stafford before ?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730

    Foxy said:

    Some communications from the DoH suggest May is the plan too.

    I have a modest bet on it being May.

    The timing of the election is a political decision that only a very small number of people will be party to. The DoH may be making the correct assumption but you can't conclude that they are aware of Sunak's plans.
    Sunak has actual plans?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730
    Nigelb said:

    On topic, has anyone ever heard of Alexander Stafford before ?

    He seems to be a sow-er sort of person.

    (Now there's an obscure pun!)
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 22,371
    edited December 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    Two things.
    Yes kids on farms are often a bit weird.

    And
    We let down children all the time. When it suits us. Housing is out of reach, most will never own a home. Mental health services are low priority. Total lack of concern for the climate. Piling debt on debt. Massive rise in child poverty.

    But it’s a disaster if we panic in a pandemic and lockdown schools for a few months?

    They look a bit selective, these complaints.
    Lets see for me.

    1: Housing is for me the number one problem in this country that needs fixing.
    2: Ironic, the claim is that there's more priorities than just healthcare and you want to talk about healthcare.
    3: I care about the climate and want to address climate change with an investment in clean technologies.
    4: I oppose piling debt on debt, indeed its why Brown was such a failure as we've discussed before.
    5: Not true.

    So housing, climate, debt and education - 4 out of 6 are priorities for me. Not a bad score.
    The three biggest problems in the UK are housing, housing, and housing.
    Housing availability, housing cost, housing quality.

    There is a shortage of accommodation in places (not everywhere). We need to build houses that communities need as opposed to houses the builders want to build. We see estates being thrown up with 4 bed + "executive style houses" where the need is affordable starter houses.

    The economy is screwed at least in a big part by housing costs. Mortgages are shooting up, rents are sky high - and landlords can't make a living either. Is anyone making money? We're spending so much, but what are we getting?

    We *have* to talk quality. Apartment blocks thrown up with "rapid-burn" panelling. Houses by the big housebuilders with no cavity insulation and endless snags that need fixing. We're building terrible housing.

    So yes, housing, housing, housing. But not more of the same. We need a rethink.
    Agree totally. There needs to be thinking outside the box, as there was after WWII, and find ways to construct cheap but quality housing. Recent attempts at alternative contstruction methods have been shut down by banks which won’t mortgage them.
    Government does, of course, have the power to obtain very cheap building land.

    Which is one way of building cheaper homes.
    Question - what stops councils buying up land, designing a layout, putting in services, then selling the plots to recoup costs?

    Obviously reposte - Woking. But in the boom times of the housing market, that would have been money for old rope.


    We (a local council ) are looking into this and it seems to be proble

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    Two things.
    Yes kids on farms are often a bit weird.

    And
    We let down children all the time. When it suits us. Housing is out of reach, most will never own a home. Mental health services are low priority. Total lack of concern for the climate. Piling debt on debt. Massive rise in child poverty.

    But it’s a disaster if we panic in a pandemic and lockdown schools for a few months?

    They look a bit selective, these complaints.
    Lets see for me.

    1: Housing is for me the number one problem in this country that needs fixing.
    2: Ironic, the claim is that there's more priorities than just healthcare and you want to talk about healthcare.
    3: I care about the climate and want to address climate change with an investment in clean technologies.
    4: I oppose piling debt on debt, indeed its why Brown was such a failure as we've discussed before.
    5: Not true.

    So housing, climate, debt and education - 4 out of 6 are priorities for me. Not a bad score.
    The three biggest problems in the UK are housing, housing, and housing.
    Housing availability, housing cost, housing quality.

    There is a shortage of accommodation in places (not everywhere). We need to build houses that communities need as opposed to houses the builders want to build. We see estates being thrown up with 4 bed + "executive style houses" where the need is affordable starter houses.

    The economy is screwed at least in a big part by housing costs. Mortgages are shooting up, rents are sky high - and landlords can't make a living either. Is anyone making money? We're spending so much, but what are we getting?

    We *have* to talk quality. Apartment blocks thrown up with "rapid-burn" panelling. Houses by the big housebuilders with no cavity insulation and endless snags that need fixing. We're building terrible housing.

    So yes, housing, housing, housing. But not more of the same. We need a rethink.
    Agree totally. There needs to be thinking outside the box, as there was after WWII, and find ways to construct cheap but quality housing. Recent attempts at alternative contstruction methods have been shut down by banks which won’t mortgage them.
    Government does, of course, have the power to obtain very cheap building land.

    Which is one way of building cheaper homes.
    Question - what stops councils buying up land, designing a layout, putting in services, then selling the plots to recoup costs?

    Obviously reposte - Woking. But in the boom times of the housing market, that would have been money for old rope.


    As a new councillor. This has been a thing for me. I will go with resources: frameworks, funding, capability, ambition, infrastructure.

    We can lay out a framework of standards for local provision but if it isn't saleable with 17% profit it isn't considered viable. His Majesty's Planning Inspectorate will tell us to do it again but cheaper.

    Electricity is in short supply. There is sewage spilling into our rivers. We don't want to make it worse and we can't get Severn Trent to take any interest in improving the service they manage. They are not our friends.

    As for DIY.
    I am told we would need £11m per year on top of all the available government grants to produce 250 affordable homes a year, and then we wouldn't have anyone to sell them to. We need land but we are not allowed to compulsorily purchase and definitely not below a fair price. Our projects are not ones we want to contemplate without meeting quality standards that the private sector isn't bothering with. Which makes us uncompetitive.

    its annoying.
    I'm aware that a change of government is immanent, and I want to be ready to take full advantage of opportunities but I cannot deal with the required infrastructure shortfall

    Labour have for some time floated the idea of giving LAs broader powers to compulsorily acquire land without paying ‘planning gain’, so ‘fair price’ might mean something very different indeed in a year’s time.
    How about just abolishing 'planning gain' in the first place, in which case everyone could build at an affordable price and not just politicians who answer to NIMBY electorates?
    How do you ‘just abolish planning gain’ ?
    What's the trigger that causes planning gain? Abolish that.

    Planning gain comes because there's a differential between the value of land with consent and land without it.

    Make planning automatic, go to a coded system, so that nobody requires to get consent anymore and the planning gain associated with getting consent vanishes.

    Nations that have done this have seen stable house prices rather than surging ones, because there's no artificial constraints on construction and no planning windfalls that cause gains - also reform taxation so that sitting on land is less than worthless because its taxed automatically all along whether its built on or not just the same.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730
    South Africa knock India over for 131. Win by an innings and 32.

    That's a thrashing.

    Especially since the Saffers were down to ten men and had to be led by a random senior pro.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    Two things.
    Yes kids on farms are often a bit weird.

    And
    We let down children all the time. When it suits us. Housing is out of reach, most will never own a home. Mental health services are low priority. Total lack of concern for the climate. Piling debt on debt. Massive rise in child poverty.

    But it’s a disaster if we panic in a pandemic and lockdown schools for a few months?

    They look a bit selective, these complaints.
    Lets see for me.

    1: Housing is for me the number one problem in this country that needs fixing.
    2: Ironic, the claim is that there's more priorities than just healthcare and you want to talk about healthcare.
    3: I care about the climate and want to address climate change with an investment in clean technologies.
    4: I oppose piling debt on debt, indeed its why Brown was such a failure as we've discussed before.
    5: Not true.

    So housing, climate, debt and education - 4 out of 6 are priorities for me. Not a bad score.
    The three biggest problems in the UK are housing, housing, and housing.
    Housing availability, housing cost, housing quality.

    There is a shortage of accommodation in places (not everywhere). We need to build houses that communities need as opposed to houses the builders want to build. We see estates being thrown up with 4 bed + "executive style houses" where the need is affordable starter houses.

    The economy is screwed at least in a big part by housing costs. Mortgages are shooting up, rents are sky high - and landlords can't make a living either. Is anyone making money? We're spending so much, but what are we getting?

    We *have* to talk quality. Apartment blocks thrown up with "rapid-burn" panelling. Houses by the big housebuilders with no cavity insulation and endless snags that need fixing. We're building terrible housing.

    So yes, housing, housing, housing. But not more of the same. We need a rethink.
    Agree totally. There needs to be thinking outside the box, as there was after WWII, and find ways to construct cheap but quality housing. Recent attempts at alternative contstruction methods have been shut down by banks which won’t mortgage them.
    Government does, of course, have the power to obtain very cheap building land.

    Which is one way of building cheaper homes.
    Question - what stops councils buying up land, designing a layout, putting in services, then selling the plots to recoup costs?

    Obviously reposte - Woking. But in the boom times of the housing market, that would have been money for old rope.


    We (a local council ) are looking into this and it seems to be proble

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    Two things.
    Yes kids on farms are often a bit weird.

    And
    We let down children all the time. When it suits us. Housing is out of reach, most will never own a home. Mental health services are low priority. Total lack of concern for the climate. Piling debt on debt. Massive rise in child poverty.

    But it’s a disaster if we panic in a pandemic and lockdown schools for a few months?

    They look a bit selective, these complaints.
    Lets see for me.

    1: Housing is for me the number one problem in this country that needs fixing.
    2: Ironic, the claim is that there's more priorities than just healthcare and you want to talk about healthcare.
    3: I care about the climate and want to address climate change with an investment in clean technologies.
    4: I oppose piling debt on debt, indeed its why Brown was such a failure as we've discussed before.
    5: Not true.

    So housing, climate, debt and education - 4 out of 6 are priorities for me. Not a bad score.
    The three biggest problems in the UK are housing, housing, and housing.
    Housing availability, housing cost, housing quality.

    There is a shortage of accommodation in places (not everywhere). We need to build houses that communities need as opposed to houses the builders want to build. We see estates being thrown up with 4 bed + "executive style houses" where the need is affordable starter houses.

    The economy is screwed at least in a big part by housing costs. Mortgages are shooting up, rents are sky high - and landlords can't make a living either. Is anyone making money? We're spending so much, but what are we getting?

    We *have* to talk quality. Apartment blocks thrown up with "rapid-burn" panelling. Houses by the big housebuilders with no cavity insulation and endless snags that need fixing. We're building terrible housing.

    So yes, housing, housing, housing. But not more of the same. We need a rethink.
    Agree totally. There needs to be thinking outside the box, as there was after WWII, and find ways to construct cheap but quality housing. Recent attempts at alternative contstruction methods have been shut down by banks which won’t mortgage them.
    Government does, of course, have the power to obtain very cheap building land.

    Which is one way of building cheaper homes.
    Question - what stops councils buying up land, designing a layout, putting in services, then selling the plots to recoup costs?

    Obviously reposte - Woking. But in the boom times of the housing market, that would have been money for old rope.


    As a new councillor. This has been a thing for me. I will go with resources: frameworks, funding, capability, ambition, infrastructure.

    We can lay out a framework of standards for local provision but if it isn't saleable with 17% profit it isn't considered viable. His Majesty's Planning Inspectorate will tell us to do it again but cheaper.

    Electricity is in short supply. There is sewage spilling into our rivers. We don't want to make it worse and we can't get Severn Trent to take any interest in improving the service they manage. They are not our friends.

    As for DIY.
    I am told we would need £11m per year on top of all the available government grants to produce 250 affordable homes a year, and then we wouldn't have anyone to sell them to. We need land but we are not allowed to compulsorily purchase and definitely not below a fair price. Our projects are not ones we want to contemplate without meeting quality standards that the private sector isn't bothering with. Which makes us uncompetitive.

    its annoying.
    I'm aware that a change of government is immanent, and I want to be ready to take full advantage of opportunities but I cannot deal with the required infrastructure shortfall

    Labour have for some time floated the idea of giving LAs broader powers to compulsorily acquire land without paying ‘planning gain’, so ‘fair price’ might mean something very different indeed in a year’s time.
    How about just abolishing 'planning gain' in the first place, in which case everyone could build at an affordable price and not just politicians who answer to NIMBY electorates?
    How do you ‘just abolish planning gain’ ?
    What's the trigger that causes planning gain? Abolish that.

    Planning gain comes because there's a differential between the value of land with consent and land without it.

    Make planning automatic, go to a coded system, so that nobody requires to get consent anymore and the planning gain associated with getting consent vanishes.

    Nations that have done this have seen stable house prices rather than surging ones, because there's no artificial constraints on construction and no planning windfalls that cause gains - also reform taxation so that sitting on land is less than worthless because its taxed automatically all along whether its built on or not just the same.
    We’re talking about what might be be Labour policy, though.
    There’s pretty well no chance of your idea, whatever its merits, being adopted by either party. Certainly not the Tories.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,453
    edited December 2023

    Foxy said:

    Some communications from the DoH suggest May is the plan too.

    I have a modest bet on it being May.

    The timing of the election is a political decision that only a very small number of people will be party to. The DoH may be making the correct assumption but you can't conclude that they are aware of Sunak's plans.
    Officially, you're right.

    Unofficially, I'm sure there are a lot of "The Minister is very keen to ensure that this issue is resolved by the middle of March" comments all over government.

    And May has a lot going for it. It's probably a less bad defeat than in the autumn, with all the ticking timebombs around government. It's not quite the last minute. It probably saves a decent slew of Conservative councillors (cf 1997).

    So, does Sunak press the big red button in March and go down to a bad defeat, or hold on until September and probably go down to a worse one? The first is probably more rational, and what the spreadsheet will advise.

    But when push comes to shove, will he do it?
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,335

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Couple of points on this morning’s interesting discussions:

    Hull had its first wave in November 2020 and the schools stayed open, indeed were not allowed to close (though years groups were sometimes sent home). Schools coped and teaching and learning continued in the classroom for the majority. Personally, I would have vaccinated teachers early on in 2021 and avoided any further talk of schools closing.

    On house building, theoretical productivity per annum may be irrelevant if a bricklayer can earn a good living without working every hour god sends.

    Ok, I'll buy it. How did Hull avoid the state-mandated lockdown in March 2020 and the virus for another eight months?

    Did Kingston Communications not take calls from Whitehall?
    Hull did indeed have the mandated lockdown from March through to July but infections were very low… they then had a big spike in the November, when schools were back open, which pre-dated the Kent variant. See chart.


    Ok, having got that clarification:

    1) Everywhere had a big spike in November 2020. Most schools stayed open. This was extremely difficult, not least because the money needed to keep them open and pay for supply teachers, disinfectant etc was promised but only rarely forthcoming. The disruption inside them was also extensive, particularly with classes losing members and/or whole groups. The damage of dogmatically keeping them open for all students rather than showing some flexibility on this point to keep things going as well as possible probably did more damage in the long run than full closures would have done.

    2) Your own figures show a biggish spike in March in Hull. As nationally, this was likely underreported due to the inadequacy of the testing regime. I don't think you can say 'November was the first wave.'

    3) It wasn't just about vaccinating teachers, as I patiently made clear at the time. In fact, although teachers were at fairly high risk of exposure they were at comparatively low risk of dying as due to our government's longstanding incompetence they tend to be quite a bit younger than the average population. The issue was with in school transmission sending it rampaging through the community. My exact words were 'it's no use having teachers vaccinated so we can reopen schools if the price of that is dead parents.'

    4) Finally, since schools were actually reopened well in advance of the vaccine programme getting anywhere near most teachers, never mind children, following a decision by the drunken weirdos of the DfE to reopen on 8th March come what may (a decision which was taken at the start of February and leaked to The Times) and there was never any serious talk of closing them again, your argument on 'vaccinating early in 2021' fails anyway.
    1) Money not being forthcoming is a choice - a bad choice - and money should be forthcoming for education and would have cost magnitudes less than lockdown did.

    3) Using the logic that teachers are young, so not very high risk, the same is true with parents too. Parents tend to be younger adults. Parents of kids at school today are far, far more likely to be Millenials than Boomers. Far more likely is the price would be dead great-grandparents or grandparents. Grandparents and great-grandparents are to be cherished, but their grandchildren's or great-grandchildren's education is not something to be sacrificed to prolong their life.

    4) 8th March 2021 was absolutely not the time to be opening schools, I completely agree. Schools should have been open - and remained open - from March 2020 onwards instead, with 2020 hindsight.
    It's not about whether the time was 'right' or not. As it happened, the reopening went ahead without ill effects.

    The issue was, as always through the pandemic, it was being made for all the wrong reasons.
    Completely agreed.

    If the right reasons were being used, we'd have never closed schools in the first place.

    The first lockdown was perhaps excusable, people didn't know what was going on. But by the second lockdown onwards, we knew children weren't at any great risk themselves - so sacrificing their education in order to prolong the lives of others was a sick and twisted choice.
    Children were the primary means of spreading infection to households in many areas. It sucks, but that’s the way it was - if you leave the schools open you may as well not have bothered with lockdowns at all, with all the consequential effects of making that choice.

    (As ever, I make a pre-vaccine / post vaccine distinction here. Pre vaccine lockdowns appear to have been necessary, post-vaccine ones less so.)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Couple of points on this morning’s interesting discussions:

    Hull had its first wave in November 2020 and the schools stayed open, indeed were not allowed to close (though years groups were sometimes sent home). Schools coped and teaching and learning continued in the classroom for the majority. Personally, I would have vaccinated teachers early on in 2021 and avoided any further talk of schools closing.

    On house building, theoretical productivity per annum may be irrelevant if a bricklayer can earn a good living without working every hour god sends.

    Ok, I'll buy it. How did Hull avoid the state-mandated lockdown in March 2020 and the virus for another eight months?

    Did Kingston Communications not take calls from Whitehall?
    Hull did indeed have the mandated lockdown from March through to July but infections were very low… they then had a big spike in the November, when schools were back open, which pre-dated the Kent variant. See chart.


    Ok, having got that clarification:

    1) Everywhere had a big spike in November 2020. Most schools stayed open. This was extremely difficult, not least because the money needed to keep them open and pay for supply teachers, disinfectant etc was promised but only rarely forthcoming. The disruption inside them was also extensive, particularly with classes losing members and/or whole groups. The damage of dogmatically keeping them open for all students rather than showing some flexibility on this point to keep things going as well as possible probably did more damage in the long run than full closures would have done.

    2) Your own figures show a biggish spike in March in Hull. As nationally, this was likely underreported due to the inadequacy of the testing regime. I don't think you can say 'November was the first wave.'

    3) It wasn't just about vaccinating teachers, as I patiently made clear at the time. In fact, although teachers were at fairly high risk of exposure they were at comparatively low risk of dying as due to our government's longstanding incompetence they tend to be quite a bit younger than the average population. The issue was with in school transmission sending it rampaging through the community. My exact words were 'it's no use having teachers vaccinated so we can reopen schools if the price of that is dead parents.'

    4) Finally, since schools were actually reopened well in advance of the vaccine programme getting anywhere near most teachers, never mind children, following a decision by the drunken weirdos of the DfE to reopen on 8th March come what may (a decision which was taken at the start of February and leaked to The Times) and there was never any serious talk of closing them again, your argument on 'vaccinating early in 2021' fails anyway.
    1) Money not being forthcoming is a choice - a bad choice - and money should be forthcoming for education and would have cost magnitudes less than lockdown did.

    3) Using the logic that teachers are young, so not very high risk, the same is true with parents too. Parents tend to be younger adults. Parents of kids at school today are far, far more likely to be Millenials than Boomers. Far more likely is the price would be dead great-grandparents or grandparents. Grandparents and great-grandparents are to be cherished, but their grandchildren's or great-grandchildren's education is not something to be sacrificed to prolong their life.

    4) 8th March 2021 was absolutely not the time to be opening schools, I completely agree. Schools should have been open - and remained open - from March 2020 onwards instead, with 2020 hindsight.
    It's not about whether the time was 'right' or not. As it happened, the reopening went ahead without ill effects.

    The issue was, as always through the pandemic, it was being made for all the wrong reasons.
    Completely agreed.

    If the right reasons were being used, we'd have never closed schools in the first place.

    The first lockdown was perhaps excusable, people didn't know what was going on. But by the second lockdown onwards, we knew children weren't at any great risk themselves - so sacrificing their education in order to prolong the lives of others was a sick and twisted choice.
    Schools were not functioning by December 2020. They were open in a zombiefied state. Not helped by the DfE declaring full lessons should be set for every child that was off that should not be simple duplicates of lessons in school which on top of covering for staff off literally required more hours than the day has.

    Trying to keep them fully open was impossible. And looked impossible even before Omicron hit. We would have needed not merely to double the education budget but mobilise all qualified teachers on something akin to a military footing, taking over office blocks as nightingale schools.

    The real mistake was in not flexing from October onwards, to move to blended learning with the aim of trying to keep most people in school most of the time. It might not have been enough, but what was attempted was always going to lead to a collapse.

    As an aside, one of the really bad mistakes was not realising again in October that the 2021 exams wouldn't be going ahead. It was obvious that was out of the question and only a retard who hated children would think it possible. Unfortunately, we had Acland-Hood and Nick Gibb in charge.

    Other crazy things. OFSTED inspections continued. One actually forced a school to shut because they infected the entire SLT. They learned nothing from that, but justified the continued employment of 1700 people, most of whom, it now emerges, have not been trained in safeguarding. What was the point of that?
    Omicron was Dec 2021, it was Delta in winter 2020
    I was just testing...

    Shows how much time I had to pay attention to things!
    I edited, because Delta came from India in Spring 2021.

    It all becomes rather a blur, but was horrible to be part of.
    So it wasn't just me!

    Didn't enjoy trying to keep schools open under impossible condition and I know you had it worse.

    Nice beer for Foxy day?
    Not sure if viral or just exhausted. Not fancying alcohol today, just a bit of a sofa day.
  • Nigelb said:

    On topic, has anyone ever heard of Alexander Stafford before ?

    Yes, he was PPS to Boris Johnson.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193
    May election is ‘worst kept secret in Westminster’, says senior Labour MP

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/dec/28/may-election-is-worst-kept-secret-in-westminster-says-senior-labour-mp
    Labour is talking up the prospect of a May 2024 general election, with the shadow cabinet minister Emily Thornberry saying it was “the worst kept secret in Westminster” that a contest would be called then.

    Thornberry told Sky News on Thursday that the government’s decision to announce a budget in early March – the earliest date in 13 years apart from during the pandemic – “seems to confirm” that May is the most likely date.

    The party has been preparing for a May contest, despite most of Westminster expecting Rishi Sunak to wait until the autumn or winter. Leaving it to the latest possible time would give the Conservatives more hope of recovering in the polls, where they trail Labour by 15-20 points.

    The decision to call a budget on 6 March with hefty tax cuts still leaves open the option of a May election should the prime minister’s fortunes improve.

    If he fails to call an election in May, Labour may start to spread the narrative that Sunak is a “bottler” and “squatting” in Downing Street, which were the tactics used by the Conservatives against Gordon Brown in 2009 and 2010.

    Thornberry said Labour would be ready for an election. The Guardian reported this week that the Labour leader, Keir Starmer, has told shadow ministers to have their policy proposals ready by mid-January, in time for the manifesto to be completed by 8 February...


  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    On topic, I tend to agree. Though don't discount either the Tory Party or Rishi's capacity for ineptitude, self-owns and unforced errors. TBH my view is that strategically they'd be best with a May election.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193

    Nigelb said:

    On topic, has anyone ever heard of Alexander Stafford before ?

    Yes, he was PPS to Boris Johnson.
    Just wiki’d him.
    Seems a right prat.
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    Two things.
    Yes kids on farms are often a bit weird.

    And
    We let down children all the time. When it suits us. Housing is out of reach, most will never own a home. Mental health services are low priority. Total lack of concern for the climate. Piling debt on debt. Massive rise in child poverty.

    But it’s a disaster if we panic in a pandemic and lockdown schools for a few months?

    They look a bit selective, these complaints.
    Lets see for me.

    1: Housing is for me the number one problem in this country that needs fixing.
    2: Ironic, the claim is that there's more priorities than just healthcare and you want to talk about healthcare.
    3: I care about the climate and want to address climate change with an investment in clean technologies.
    4: I oppose piling debt on debt, indeed its why Brown was such a failure as we've discussed before.
    5: Not true.

    So housing, climate, debt and education - 4 out of 6 are priorities for me. Not a bad score.
    The three biggest problems in the UK are housing, housing, and housing.
    Housing availability, housing cost, housing quality.

    There is a shortage of accommodation in places (not everywhere). We need to build houses that communities need as opposed to houses the builders want to build. We see estates being thrown up with 4 bed + "executive style houses" where the need is affordable starter houses.

    The economy is screwed at least in a big part by housing costs. Mortgages are shooting up, rents are sky high - and landlords can't make a living either. Is anyone making money? We're spending so much, but what are we getting?

    We *have* to talk quality. Apartment blocks thrown up with "rapid-burn" panelling. Houses by the big housebuilders with no cavity insulation and endless snags that need fixing. We're building terrible housing.

    So yes, housing, housing, housing. But not more of the same. We need a rethink.
    Agree totally. There needs to be thinking outside the box, as there was after WWII, and find ways to construct cheap but quality housing. Recent attempts at alternative contstruction methods have been shut down by banks which won’t mortgage them.
    Government does, of course, have the power to obtain very cheap building land.

    Which is one way of building cheaper homes.
    Question - what stops councils buying up land, designing a layout, putting in services, then selling the plots to recoup costs?

    Obviously reposte - Woking. But in the boom times of the housing market, that would have been money for old rope.


    We (a local council ) are looking into this and it seems to be proble

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    Two things.
    Yes kids on farms are often a bit weird.

    And
    We let down children all the time. When it suits us. Housing is out of reach, most will never own a home. Mental health services are low priority. Total lack of concern for the climate. Piling debt on debt. Massive rise in child poverty.

    But it’s a disaster if we panic in a pandemic and lockdown schools for a few months?

    They look a bit selective, these complaints.
    Lets see for me.

    1: Housing is for me the number one problem in this country that needs fixing.
    2: Ironic, the claim is that there's more priorities than just healthcare and you want to talk about healthcare.
    3: I care about the climate and want to address climate change with an investment in clean technologies.
    4: I oppose piling debt on debt, indeed its why Brown was such a failure as we've discussed before.
    5: Not true.

    So housing, climate, debt and education - 4 out of 6 are priorities for me. Not a bad score.
    The three biggest problems in the UK are housing, housing, and housing.
    Housing availability, housing cost, housing quality.

    There is a shortage of accommodation in places (not everywhere). We need to build houses that communities need as opposed to houses the builders want to build. We see estates being thrown up with 4 bed + "executive style houses" where the need is affordable starter houses.

    The economy is screwed at least in a big part by housing costs. Mortgages are shooting up, rents are sky high - and landlords can't make a living either. Is anyone making money? We're spending so much, but what are we getting?

    We *have* to talk quality. Apartment blocks thrown up with "rapid-burn" panelling. Houses by the big housebuilders with no cavity insulation and endless snags that need fixing. We're building terrible housing.

    So yes, housing, housing, housing. But not more of the same. We need a rethink.
    Agree totally. There needs to be thinking outside the box, as there was after WWII, and find ways to construct cheap but quality housing. Recent attempts at alternative contstruction methods have been shut down by banks which won’t mortgage them.
    Government does, of course, have the power to obtain very cheap building land.

    Which is one way of building cheaper homes.
    Question - what stops councils buying up land, designing a layout, putting in services, then selling the plots to recoup costs?

    Obviously reposte - Woking. But in the boom times of the housing market, that would have been money for old rope.


    As a new councillor. This has been a thing for me. I will go with resources: frameworks, funding, capability, ambition, infrastructure.

    We can lay out a framework of standards for local provision but if it isn't saleable with 17% profit it isn't considered viable. His Majesty's Planning Inspectorate will tell us to do it again but cheaper.

    Electricity is in short supply. There is sewage spilling into our rivers. We don't want to make it worse and we can't get Severn Trent to take any interest in improving the service they manage. They are not our friends.

    As for DIY.
    I am told we would need £11m per year on top of all the available government grants to produce 250 affordable homes a year, and then we wouldn't have anyone to sell them to. We need land but we are not allowed to compulsorily purchase and definitely not below a fair price. Our projects are not ones we want to contemplate without meeting quality standards that the private sector isn't bothering with. Which makes us uncompetitive.

    its annoying.
    I'm aware that a change of government is immanent, and I want to be ready to take full advantage of opportunities but I cannot deal with the required infrastructure shortfall

    Labour have for some time floated the idea of giving LAs broader powers to compulsorily acquire land without paying ‘planning gain’, so ‘fair price’ might mean something very different indeed in a year’s time.
    How about just abolishing 'planning gain' in the first place, in which case everyone could build at an affordable price and not just politicians who answer to NIMBY electorates?
    How do you ‘just abolish planning gain’ ?
    What's the trigger that causes planning gain? Abolish that.

    Planning gain comes because there's a differential between the value of land with consent and land without it.

    Make planning automatic, go to a coded system, so that nobody requires to get consent anymore and the planning gain associated with getting consent vanishes.

    Nations that have done this have seen stable house prices rather than surging ones, because there's no artificial constraints on construction and no planning windfalls that cause gains - also reform taxation so that sitting on land is less than worthless because its taxed automatically all along whether its built on or not just the same.
    We’re talking about what might be be Labour policy, though.
    There’s pretty well no chance of your idea, whatever its merits, being adopted by either party. Certainly not the Tories.
    Why can't Labour do that?

    Other governments in other countries have - and Labour claim to acknowledge that housing costs are a great barrier to inequality and claim to be in favour of improving opportunities for all, so why not remove that barrier?

    There's no divine reason for planning consent, prior to its introduction England was building sufficient houses and the cost of land was only about 2% of the cost of housing - and the cost of housing was not the largest part of people's budgets.

    Since the introduction of planning regimes there have never been sufficient new houses built, and our housing crisis has got worse and worse.

    What's stopping Labour from embracing serious root and branch reform and fixing the problem at source?

    Sure it will piss off landlords who want to extract rent from tenants and see their wealth go up, but that's neither relevant nor Labour's target market for votes.

    Abolish planning gain and the housing crisis would be rapidly resolved. With house costs down, the cost of living crisis would be resolved, the inequalities between the well off and poor would rapidly shrink, and the cost to the Exchequer of housing support etc would plummet.

    What's Labour's problem with any of that?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    On topic, has anyone ever heard of Alexander Stafford before ?

    Yes, he was PPS to Boris Johnson.
    Just wiki’d him.
    Seems a right prat.
    If he's right, then it's October.
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    On topic, has anyone ever heard of Alexander Stafford before ?

    Yes, he was PPS to Boris Johnson.
    Just wiki’d him.
    Seems a right prat.
    Well he’s an Oxford man, what do you expect ?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,949
    "Mr Bates vs the Post Office: what’s the real story of the Post Office scandal?
    It was called one of the 'worst miscarriages of justice in British history'. Here's what you need to know

    In 1999, the Post Office introduced a brand-new way of cataloguing payments: the Horizon IT system. It was intended to be a way to modernise the organisation, moving it from paper-based records into the upcoming 21st century.

    What unfolded instead was a disaster. The Horizon IT system was faulty, prone to glitches which incorrectly exhibited shortfalls of cash that were blamed on the subpostmasters in charge of their branches, leading to twenty years of legal disputes, hundreds of wrongful convictions and untold lives destroyed."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/culture/tvfilm/mr-bates-vs-the-post-office-the-real-story-post-office-scandal-b1128473.html
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,124

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    Two things.
    Yes kids on farms are often a bit weird.

    And
    We let down children all the time. When it suits us. Housing is out of reach, most will never own a home. Mental health services are low priority. Total lack of concern for the climate. Piling debt on debt. Massive rise in child poverty.

    But it’s a disaster if we panic in a pandemic and lockdown schools for a few months?

    They look a bit selective, these complaints.
    Lets see for me.

    1: Housing is for me the number one problem in this country that needs fixing.
    2: Ironic, the claim is that there's more priorities than just healthcare and you want to talk about healthcare.
    3: I care about the climate and want to address climate change with an investment in clean technologies.
    4: I oppose piling debt on debt, indeed its why Brown was such a failure as we've discussed before.
    5: Not true.

    So housing, climate, debt and education - 4 out of 6 are priorities for me. Not a bad score.
    The three biggest problems in the UK are housing, housing, and housing.
    Housing availability, housing cost, housing quality.

    There is a shortage of accommodation in places (not everywhere). We need to build houses that communities need as opposed to houses the builders want to build. We see estates being thrown up with 4 bed + "executive style houses" where the need is affordable starter houses.

    The economy is screwed at least in a big part by housing costs. Mortgages are shooting up, rents are sky high - and landlords can't make a living either. Is anyone making money? We're spending so much, but what are we getting?

    We *have* to talk quality. Apartment blocks thrown up with "rapid-burn" panelling. Houses by the big housebuilders with no cavity insulation and endless snags that need fixing. We're building terrible housing.

    So yes, housing, housing, housing. But not more of the same. We need a rethink.
    Agree totally. There needs to be thinking outside the box, as there was after WWII, and find ways to construct cheap but quality housing. Recent attempts at alternative contstruction methods have been shut down by banks which won’t mortgage them.
    Government does, of course, have the power to obtain very cheap building land.

    Which is one way of building cheaper homes.
    Question - what stops councils buying up land, designing a layout, putting in services, then selling the plots to recoup costs?

    Obviously reposte - Woking. But in the boom times of the housing market, that would have been money for old rope.


    We (a local council ) are looking into this and it seems to be proble

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    Two things.
    Yes kids on farms are often a bit weird.

    And
    We let down children all the time. When it suits us. Housing is out of reach, most will never own a home. Mental health services are low priority. Total lack of concern for the climate. Piling debt on debt. Massive rise in child poverty.

    But it’s a disaster if we panic in a pandemic and lockdown schools for a few months?

    They look a bit selective, these complaints.
    Lets see for me.

    1: Housing is for me the number one problem in this country that needs fixing.
    2: Ironic, the claim is that there's more priorities than just healthcare and you want to talk about healthcare.
    3: I care about the climate and want to address climate change with an investment in clean technologies.
    4: I oppose piling debt on debt, indeed its why Brown was such a failure as we've discussed before.
    5: Not true.

    So housing, climate, debt and education - 4 out of 6 are priorities for me. Not a bad score.
    The three biggest problems in the UK are housing, housing, and housing.
    Housing availability, housing cost, housing quality.

    There is a shortage of accommodation in places (not everywhere). We need to build houses that communities need as opposed to houses the builders want to build. We see estates being thrown up with 4 bed + "executive style houses" where the need is affordable starter houses.

    The economy is screwed at least in a big part by housing costs. Mortgages are shooting up, rents are sky high - and landlords can't make a living either. Is anyone making money? We're spending so much, but what are we getting?

    We *have* to talk quality. Apartment blocks thrown up with "rapid-burn" panelling. Houses by the big housebuilders with no cavity insulation and endless snags that need fixing. We're building terrible housing.

    So yes, housing, housing, housing. But not more of the same. We need a rethink.
    Agree totally. There needs to be thinking outside the box, as there was after WWII, and find ways to construct cheap but quality housing. Recent attempts at alternative contstruction methods have been shut down by banks which won’t mortgage them.
    Government does, of course, have the power to obtain very cheap building land.

    Which is one way of building cheaper homes.
    Question - what stops councils buying up land, designing a layout, putting in services, then selling the plots to recoup costs?

    Obviously reposte - Woking. But in the boom times of the housing market, that would have been money for old rope.


    As a new councillor. This has been a thing for me. I will go with resources: frameworks, funding, capability, ambition, infrastructure.

    We can lay out a framework of standards for local provision but if it isn't saleable with 17% profit it isn't considered viable. His Majesty's Planning Inspectorate will tell us to do it again but cheaper.

    Electricity is in short supply. There is sewage spilling into our rivers. We don't want to make it worse and we can't get Severn Trent to take any interest in improving the service they manage. They are not our friends.

    As for DIY.
    I am told we would need £11m per year on top of all the available government grants to produce 250 affordable homes a year, and then we wouldn't have anyone to sell them to. We need land but we are not allowed to compulsorily purchase and definitely not below a fair price. Our projects are not ones we want to contemplate without meeting quality standards that the private sector isn't bothering with. Which makes us uncompetitive.

    its annoying.
    I'm aware that a change of government is immanent, and I want to be ready to take full advantage of opportunities but I cannot deal with the required infrastructure shortfall

    Labour have for some time floated the idea of giving LAs broader powers to compulsorily acquire land without paying ‘planning gain’, so ‘fair price’ might mean something very different indeed in a year’s time.
    How about just abolishing 'planning gain' in the first place, in which case everyone could build at an affordable price and not just politicians who answer to NIMBY electorates?
    How do you ‘just abolish planning gain’ ?
    What's the trigger that causes planning gain? Abolish that.

    Planning gain comes because there's a differential between the value of land with consent and land without it.

    Make planning automatic, go to a coded system, so that nobody requires to get consent anymore and the planning gain associated with getting consent vanishes.

    Nations that have done this have seen stable house prices rather than surging ones, because there's no artificial constraints on construction and no planning windfalls that cause gains - also reform taxation so that sitting on land is less than worthless because its taxed automatically all along whether its built on or not just the same.
    We’re talking about what might be be Labour policy, though.
    There’s pretty well no chance of your idea, whatever its merits, being adopted by either party. Certainly not the Tories.
    Why can't Labour do that?

    Other governments in other countries have - and Labour claim to acknowledge that housing costs are a great barrier to inequality and claim to be in favour of improving opportunities for all, so why not remove that barrier?

    There's no divine reason for planning consent, prior to its introduction England was building sufficient houses and the cost of land was only about 2% of the cost of housing - and the cost of housing was not the largest part of people's budgets.

    Since the introduction of planning regimes there have never been sufficient new houses built, and our housing crisis has got worse and worse.

    What's stopping Labour from embracing serious root and branch reform and fixing the problem at source?

    Sure it will piss off landlords who want to extract rent from tenants and see their wealth go up, but that's neither relevant nor Labour's target market for votes.

    Abolish planning gain and the housing crisis would be rapidly resolved. With house costs down, the cost of living crisis would be resolved, the inequalities between the well off and poor would rapidly shrink, and the cost to the Exchequer of housing support etc would plummet.

    What's Labour's problem with any of that?
    They will be gaining MPs in areas where GreenNimbyHouseProtection is a major political force.

    Announcing such policies would guarantee AnybodyButLabour as the next MP
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    On topic, has anyone ever heard of Alexander Stafford before ?

    Yes, he was PPS to Boris Johnson.
    Just wiki’d him.
    Seems a right prat.
    Well he’s an Oxford man, what do you expect ?
    Indeed.
    .. Stafford described himself as belonging to the political tribe of David Cameron and was a supporter of Cameron's Big Society policy "as things like Free Schools give power to local bodies. People know best how to run their own lives." One of Stafford's contributions at Prime Minister's Questions in 2021 was described as that "of a proper old-school Law and Order Tory: tough on crime and anti-social behaviour."..

    And a fan of hydrogen.

    An oddity.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,286
    The rumours about a May election are a clever way to hide the real plan in plain sight.

    There will be a May election when the trees are green = you need to be green on Theresa May making a comeback as PM.
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    Two things.
    Yes kids on farms are often a bit weird.

    And
    We let down children all the time. When it suits us. Housing is out of reach, most will never own a home. Mental health services are low priority. Total lack of concern for the climate. Piling debt on debt. Massive rise in child poverty.

    But it’s a disaster if we panic in a pandemic and lockdown schools for a few months?

    They look a bit selective, these complaints.
    Lets see for me.

    1: Housing is for me the number one problem in this country that needs fixing.
    2: Ironic, the claim is that there's more priorities than just healthcare and you want to talk about healthcare.
    3: I care about the climate and want to address climate change with an investment in clean technologies.
    4: I oppose piling debt on debt, indeed its why Brown was such a failure as we've discussed before.
    5: Not true.

    So housing, climate, debt and education - 4 out of 6 are priorities for me. Not a bad score.
    The three biggest problems in the UK are housing, housing, and housing.
    Housing availability, housing cost, housing quality.

    There is a shortage of accommodation in places (not everywhere). We need to build houses that communities need as opposed to houses the builders want to build. We see estates being thrown up with 4 bed + "executive style houses" where the need is affordable starter houses.

    The economy is screwed at least in a big part by housing costs. Mortgages are shooting up, rents are sky high - and landlords can't make a living either. Is anyone making money? We're spending so much, but what are we getting?

    We *have* to talk quality. Apartment blocks thrown up with "rapid-burn" panelling. Houses by the big housebuilders with no cavity insulation and endless snags that need fixing. We're building terrible housing.

    So yes, housing, housing, housing. But not more of the same. We need a rethink.
    Agree totally. There needs to be thinking outside the box, as there was after WWII, and find ways to construct cheap but quality housing. Recent attempts at alternative contstruction methods have been shut down by banks which won’t mortgage them.
    Government does, of course, have the power to obtain very cheap building land.

    Which is one way of building cheaper homes.
    Question - what stops councils buying up land, designing a layout, putting in services, then selling the plots to recoup costs?

    Obviously reposte - Woking. But in the boom times of the housing market, that would have been money for old rope.


    We (a local council ) are looking into this and it seems to be proble

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    Two things.
    Yes kids on farms are often a bit weird.

    And
    We let down children all the time. When it suits us. Housing is out of reach, most will never own a home. Mental health services are low priority. Total lack of concern for the climate. Piling debt on debt. Massive rise in child poverty.

    But it’s a disaster if we panic in a pandemic and lockdown schools for a few months?

    They look a bit selective, these complaints.
    Lets see for me.

    1: Housing is for me the number one problem in this country that needs fixing.
    2: Ironic, the claim is that there's more priorities than just healthcare and you want to talk about healthcare.
    3: I care about the climate and want to address climate change with an investment in clean technologies.
    4: I oppose piling debt on debt, indeed its why Brown was such a failure as we've discussed before.
    5: Not true.

    So housing, climate, debt and education - 4 out of 6 are priorities for me. Not a bad score.
    The three biggest problems in the UK are housing, housing, and housing.
    Housing availability, housing cost, housing quality.

    There is a shortage of accommodation in places (not everywhere). We need to build houses that communities need as opposed to houses the builders want to build. We see estates being thrown up with 4 bed + "executive style houses" where the need is affordable starter houses.

    The economy is screwed at least in a big part by housing costs. Mortgages are shooting up, rents are sky high - and landlords can't make a living either. Is anyone making money? We're spending so much, but what are we getting?

    We *have* to talk quality. Apartment blocks thrown up with "rapid-burn" panelling. Houses by the big housebuilders with no cavity insulation and endless snags that need fixing. We're building terrible housing.

    So yes, housing, housing, housing. But not more of the same. We need a rethink.
    Agree totally. There needs to be thinking outside the box, as there was after WWII, and find ways to construct cheap but quality housing. Recent attempts at alternative contstruction methods have been shut down by banks which won’t mortgage them.
    Government does, of course, have the power to obtain very cheap building land.

    Which is one way of building cheaper homes.
    Question - what stops councils buying up land, designing a layout, putting in services, then selling the plots to recoup costs?

    Obviously reposte - Woking. But in the boom times of the housing market, that would have been money for old rope.


    As a new councillor. This has been a thing for me. I will go with resources: frameworks, funding, capability, ambition, infrastructure.

    We can lay out a framework of standards for local provision but if it isn't saleable with 17% profit it isn't considered viable. His Majesty's Planning Inspectorate will tell us to do it again but cheaper.

    Electricity is in short supply. There is sewage spilling into our rivers. We don't want to make it worse and we can't get Severn Trent to take any interest in improving the service they manage. They are not our friends.

    As for DIY.
    I am told we would need £11m per year on top of all the available government grants to produce 250 affordable homes a year, and then we wouldn't have anyone to sell them to. We need land but we are not allowed to compulsorily purchase and definitely not below a fair price. Our projects are not ones we want to contemplate without meeting quality standards that the private sector isn't bothering with. Which makes us uncompetitive.

    its annoying.
    I'm aware that a change of government is immanent, and I want to be ready to take full advantage of opportunities but I cannot deal with the required infrastructure shortfall

    Labour have for some time floated the idea of giving LAs broader powers to compulsorily acquire land without paying ‘planning gain’, so ‘fair price’ might mean something very different indeed in a year’s time.
    How about just abolishing 'planning gain' in the first place, in which case everyone could build at an affordable price and not just politicians who answer to NIMBY electorates?
    How do you ‘just abolish planning gain’ ?
    What's the trigger that causes planning gain? Abolish that.

    Planning gain comes because there's a differential between the value of land with consent and land without it.

    Make planning automatic, go to a coded system, so that nobody requires to get consent anymore and the planning gain associated with getting consent vanishes.

    Nations that have done this have seen stable house prices rather than surging ones, because there's no artificial constraints on construction and no planning windfalls that cause gains - also reform taxation so that sitting on land is less than worthless because its taxed automatically all along whether its built on or not just the same.
    We’re talking about what might be be Labour policy, though.
    There’s pretty well no chance of your idea, whatever its merits, being adopted by either party. Certainly not the Tories.
    Why can't Labour do that?

    Other governments in other countries have - and Labour claim to acknowledge that housing costs are a great barrier to inequality and claim to be in favour of improving opportunities for all, so why not remove that barrier?

    There's no divine reason for planning consent, prior to its introduction England was building sufficient houses and the cost of land was only about 2% of the cost of housing - and the cost of housing was not the largest part of people's budgets.

    Since the introduction of planning regimes there have never been sufficient new houses built, and our housing crisis has got worse and worse.

    What's stopping Labour from embracing serious root and branch reform and fixing the problem at source?

    Sure it will piss off landlords who want to extract rent from tenants and see their wealth go up, but that's neither relevant nor Labour's target market for votes.

    Abolish planning gain and the housing crisis would be rapidly resolved. With house costs down, the cost of living crisis would be resolved, the inequalities between the well off and poor would rapidly shrink, and the cost to the Exchequer of housing support etc would plummet.

    What's Labour's problem with any of that?
    They will be gaining MPs in areas where GreenNimbyHouseProtection is a major political force.

    Announcing such policies would guarantee AnybodyButLabour as the next MP
    Probably not.

    In countries where this has been done, governments have been re-elected.

    The problem with NIMBYism is its like many things, the exaggerated fear of a non-existent problem. By making permission political, it means people are constantly pitchforks at the ready to fight against developments, even if they're the right thing to do.

    And if they're not the right thing to do, they won't be happening, so there's no problems anyway.

    Take away the politics and NIMBYism ceases to be as potent a force. Developments are either happening, or not, but there's no great political debate about it as its no longer politicised. It loses its currency. And as its no longer politicised, competition can spring up and we cease to see monolithic Barratt-style developments and instead more organic consumer-led developments of what people want and need, where they want it and need it.

    But if Labour's too afraid of doing the right thing, because they're worried about the election after next, then they're no better and no more fit for office than the Tories.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,033
    Is the Blackpool tower on fire?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    pm215 said:

    Not that I bet, but my heart wants a spring election and therefore my head thinks an autumn one more likely...

    Sunak, I'm sure, would prefer a spring election, because that implies that Conservative poll ratings will be better by then. Thing is, that's insanely unlikely.

    As I highlighted last month, the scale of final year recovery the Conservatives need to even lose the next election narrowly has been achieved once - Labour ahead of 1970. I don't look at Sunak and think 'he's a Wilson-level operator'.

    https://twitter.com/Dylan_Difford/status/1734613079135326508

    But if a feel good (or more accurately, feel less bad) budget doesn't do the trick, what does he do? Any budget bounce will have dissipated by October.
    I don’t get it - Wilson’s Labour were way ahead in the polls in 1970, and the Tory win was a huge surprise. So Wilson threw away a big lead, that’s not comparable with what Sunak has to do
  • The rumours about a May election are a clever way to hide the real plan in plain sight.

    There will be a May election when the trees are green = you need to be green on Theresa May making a comeback as PM.

    She'd need to do 34 days to overtake BoJo in the league table. Temporary PM during a five week campaign would do the job perfectly.

    Go on Rishi, it would be so very very funny.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127

    Foxy said:

    Some communications from the DoH suggest May is the plan too.

    I have a modest bet on it being May.

    The timing of the election is a political decision that only a very small number of people will be party to. The DoH may be making the correct assumption but you can't conclude that they are aware of Sunak's plans.

    Foxy said:

    Some communications from the DoH suggest May is the plan too.

    I have a modest bet on it being May.

    The timing of the election is a political decision that only a very small number of people will be party to. The DoH may be making the correct assumption but you can't conclude that they are aware of Sunak's plans.
    I expect no one knows, perhaps not even Sunak, so we cab only guess and piece together a jigsaw. The decks are being cleared for action, so I would say 50/50 on May, making it the value bet.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,286
    edited December 2023

    The rumours about a May election are a clever way to hide the real plan in plain sight.

    There will be a May election when the trees are green = you need to be green on Theresa May making a comeback as PM.

    She'd need to do 34 days to overtake BoJo in the league table. Temporary PM during a five week campaign would do the job perfectly.

    Go on Rishi, it would be so very very funny.
    She'd be a tougher opponent for Starmer, and it would draw a line under the BoJo era that Sunak is also part of.

    I've argued before that she would have been a better PM than Cameron from 2010-16 so it would be nice to see them in a role reversal.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Is the Blackpool tower on fire?

    Orange tarpaulin flapping I think

    https://x.com/sked03/status/1740381627094827220?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    On topic, has anyone ever heard of Alexander Stafford before ?

    Yes, he was PPS to Boris Johnson.
    Just wiki’d him.
    Seems a right prat.
    Well he’s an Oxford man, what do you expect ?
    Indeed.
    .. Stafford described himself as belonging to the political tribe of David Cameron and was a supporter of Cameron's Big Society policy "as things like Free Schools give power to local bodies. People know best how to run their own lives." One of Stafford's contributions at Prime Minister's Questions in 2021 was described as that "of a proper old-school Law and Order Tory: tough on crime and anti-social behaviour."..

    And a fan of hydrogen.

    An oddity.
    He likes hot air?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,903
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Some communications from the DoH suggest May is the plan too.

    I have a modest bet on it being May.

    The timing of the election is a political decision that only a very small number of people will be party to. The DoH may be making the correct assumption but you can't conclude that they are aware of Sunak's plans.

    Foxy said:

    Some communications from the DoH suggest May is the plan too.

    I have a modest bet on it being May.

    The timing of the election is a political decision that only a very small number of people will be party to. The DoH may be making the correct assumption but you can't conclude that they are aware of Sunak's plans.
    I expect no one knows, perhaps not even Sunak, so we cab only guess and piece together a jigsaw. The decks are being cleared for action, so I would say 50/50 on May, making it the value bet.
    I've given up trying to bet on the most likely date - December -5 years. The clouding of my great wisdom with those that comically suggest October will rankle for a while. If only the bastard bookies had some guts I'd be 10x the financial man!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    On topic, has anyone ever heard of Alexander Stafford before ?

    Yes, he was PPS to Boris Johnson.
    Just wiki’d him.
    Seems a right prat.
    Well he’s an Oxford man, what do you expect ?
    Indeed.
    .. Stafford described himself as belonging to the political tribe of David Cameron and was a supporter of Cameron's Big Society policy "as things like Free Schools give power to local bodies. People know best how to run their own lives." One of Stafford's contributions at Prime Minister's Questions in 2021 was described as that "of a proper old-school Law and Order Tory: tough on crime and anti-social behaviour."..

    And a fan of hydrogen.

    An oddity.
    He likes hot air?
    More lightweight than that.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,683
    edited December 2023

    Is the Blackpool tower on fire?

    Twix seems to suggest a small fire near the top.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,335

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    Two things.
    Yes kids on farms are often a bit weird.

    And
    We let down children all the time. When it suits us. Housing is out of reach, most will never own a home. Mental health services are low priority. Total lack of concern for the climate. Piling debt on debt. Massive rise in child poverty.

    But it’s a disaster if we panic in a pandemic and lockdown schools for a few months?

    They look a bit selective, these complaints.
    Lets see for me.

    1: Housing is for me the number one problem in this country that needs fixing.
    2: Ironic, the claim is that there's more priorities than just healthcare and you want to talk about healthcare.
    3: I care about the climate and want to address climate change with an investment in clean technologies.
    4: I oppose piling debt on debt, indeed its why Brown was such a failure as we've discussed before.
    5: Not true.

    So housing, climate, debt and education - 4 out of 6 are priorities for me. Not a bad score.
    The three biggest problems in the UK are housing, housing, and housing.
    Housing availability, housing cost, housing quality.

    There is a shortage of accommodation in places (not everywhere). We need to build houses that communities need as opposed to houses the builders want to build. We see estates being thrown up with 4 bed + "executive style houses" where the need is affordable starter houses.

    The economy is screwed at least in a big part by housing costs. Mortgages are shooting up, rents are sky high - and landlords can't make a living either. Is anyone making money? We're spending so much, but what are we getting?

    We *have* to talk quality. Apartment blocks thrown up with "rapid-burn" panelling. Houses by the big housebuilders with no cavity insulation and endless snags that need fixing. We're building terrible housing.

    So yes, housing, housing, housing. But not more of the same. We need a rethink.
    Agree totally. There needs to be thinking outside the box, as there was after WWII, and find ways to construct cheap but quality housing. Recent attempts at alternative contstruction methods have been shut down by banks which won’t mortgage them.
    Government does, of course, have the power to obtain very cheap building land.

    Which is one way of building cheaper homes.
    Question - what stops councils buying up land, designing a layout, putting in services, then selling the plots to recoup costs?

    Obviously reposte - Woking. But in the boom times of the housing market, that would have been money for old rope.


    We (a local council ) are looking into this and it seems to be proble

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    Two things.
    Yes kids on farms are often a bit weird.

    And
    We let down children all the time. When it suits us. Housing is out of reach, most will never own a home. Mental health services are low priority. Total lack of concern for the climate. Piling debt on debt. Massive rise in child poverty.

    But it’s a disaster if we panic in a pandemic and lockdown schools for a few months?

    They look a bit selective, these complaints.
    Lets see for me.

    1: Housing is for me the number one problem in this country that needs fixing.
    2: Ironic, the claim is that there's more priorities than just healthcare and you want to talk about healthcare.
    3: I care about the climate and want to address climate change with an investment in clean technologies.
    4: I oppose piling debt on debt, indeed its why Brown was such a failure as we've discussed before.
    5: Not true.

    So housing, climate, debt and education - 4 out of 6 are priorities for me. Not a bad score.
    The three biggest problems in the UK are housing, housing, and housing.
    Housing availability, housing cost, housing quality.

    There is a shortage of accommodation in places (not everywhere). We need to build houses that communities need as opposed to houses the builders want to build. We see estates being thrown up with 4 bed + "executive style houses" where the need is affordable starter houses.

    The economy is screwed at least in a big part by housing costs. Mortgages are shooting up, rents are sky high - and landlords can't make a living either. Is anyone making money? We're spending so much, but what are we getting?

    We *have* to talk quality. Apartment blocks thrown up with "rapid-burn" panelling. Houses by the big housebuilders with no cavity insulation and endless snags that need fixing. We're building terrible housing.

    So yes, housing, housing, housing. But not more of the same. We need a rethink.
    Agree totally. There needs to be thinking outside the box, as there was after WWII, and find ways to construct cheap but quality housing. Recent attempts at alternative contstruction methods have been shut down by banks which won’t mortgage them.
    Government does, of course, have the power to obtain very cheap building land.

    Which is one way of building cheaper homes.
    Question - what stops councils buying up land, designing a layout, putting in services, then selling the plots to recoup costs?

    Obviously reposte - Woking. But in the boom times of the housing market, that would have been money for old rope.


    As a new councillor. This has been a thing for me. I will go with resources: frameworks, funding, capability, ambition, infrastructure.

    We can lay out a framework of standards for local provision but if it isn't saleable with 17% profit it isn't considered viable. His Majesty's Planning Inspectorate will tell us to do it again but cheaper.

    Electricity is in short supply. There is sewage spilling into our rivers. We don't want to make it worse and we can't get Severn Trent to take any interest in improving the service they manage. They are not our friends.

    As for DIY.
    I am told we would need £11m per year on top of all the available government grants to produce 250 affordable homes a year, and then we wouldn't have anyone to sell them to. We need land but we are not allowed to compulsorily purchase and definitely not below a fair price. Our projects are not ones we want to contemplate without meeting quality standards that the private sector isn't bothering with. Which makes us uncompetitive.

    its annoying.
    I'm aware that a change of government is immanent, and I want to be ready to take full advantage of opportunities but I cannot deal with the required infrastructure shortfall

    Labour have for some time floated the idea of giving LAs broader powers to compulsorily acquire land without paying ‘planning gain’, so ‘fair price’ might mean something very different indeed in a year’s time.
    How about just abolishing 'planning gain' in the first place, in which case everyone could build at an affordable price and not just politicians who answer to NIMBY electorates?
    How do you ‘just abolish planning gain’ ?
    What's the trigger that causes planning gain? Abolish that.

    Planning gain comes because there's a differential between the value of land with consent and land without it.

    Make planning automatic, go to a coded system, so that nobody requires to get consent anymore and the planning gain associated with getting consent vanishes.

    Nations that have done this have seen stable house prices rather than surging ones, because there's no artificial constraints on construction and no planning windfalls that cause gains - also reform taxation so that sitting on land is less than worthless because its taxed automatically all along whether its built on or not just the same.
    We’re talking about what might be be Labour policy, though.
    There’s pretty well no chance of your idea, whatever its merits, being adopted by either party. Certainly not the Tories.
    Why can't Labour do that?

    Other governments in other countries have - and Labour claim to acknowledge that housing costs are a great barrier to inequality and claim to be in favour of improving opportunities for all, so why not remove that barrier?

    There's no divine reason for planning consent, prior to its introduction England was building sufficient houses and the cost of land was only about 2% of the cost of housing - and the cost of housing was not the largest part of people's budgets.

    Since the introduction of planning regimes there have never been sufficient new houses built, and our housing crisis has got worse and worse.

    What's stopping Labour from embracing serious root and branch reform and fixing the problem at source?

    Sure it will piss off landlords who want to extract rent from tenants and see their wealth go up, but that's neither relevant nor Labour's target market for votes.

    Abolish planning gain and the housing crisis would be rapidly resolved. With house costs down, the cost of living crisis would be resolved, the inequalities between the well off and poor would rapidly shrink, and the cost to the Exchequer of housing support etc would plummet.

    What's Labour's problem with any of that?
    Another alternative is (I believe) the Danish approach: since planning gain is unearned income, if you want to build on a plot of land you have to sell it to the state at non-planning market value & then buy it back with planning permission.

    Planning gain accrues to the state, not the company or landowner.

    Whether you think this is moral probably depends very strongly on your politics, but since in BR’s world there wouldn’t be any planning gain anyway he ought to be entirely in favour of this system, surely :)

    One obvious flaw is that it gives the state an incentive not to give out “too much” planning permission as this would reduce the income from planning gain. Perhaps one can make the transaction mandatory, so that planning in such circumstances cannot be refused?
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,496

    Is the Blackpool tower on fire?

    Twix seems to suggest a small fire near the top.
    https://news.sky.com/story/blackpool-tower-on-fire-13038705
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,949
    If there is going to be a May election, it would have to be called in about 12 weeks from now.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,286

    The rumours about a May election are a clever way to hide the real plan in plain sight.

    There will be a May election when the trees are green = you need to be green on Theresa May making a comeback as PM.

    She'd need to do 34 days to overtake BoJo in the league table. Temporary PM during a five week campaign would do the job perfectly.

    Go on Rishi, it would be so very very funny.
    He could model his resignation statement on Estelle Morris:

    "If I'm really honest with myself I have not enjoyed it as much and I just do not think I'm as good at it as I was at my other job. I'm not having second best in a job as important as this."
  • isam said:

    pm215 said:

    Not that I bet, but my heart wants a spring election and therefore my head thinks an autumn one more likely...

    Sunak, I'm sure, would prefer a spring election, because that implies that Conservative poll ratings will be better by then. Thing is, that's insanely unlikely.

    As I highlighted last month, the scale of final year recovery the Conservatives need to even lose the next election narrowly has been achieved once - Labour ahead of 1970. I don't look at Sunak and think 'he's a Wilson-level operator'.

    https://twitter.com/Dylan_Difford/status/1734613079135326508

    But if a feel good (or more accurately, feel less bad) budget doesn't do the trick, what does he do? Any budget bounce will have dissipated by October.
    I don’t get it - Wilson’s Labour were way ahead in the polls in 1970, and the Tory win was a huge surprise. So Wilson threw away a big lead, that’s not comparable with what Sunak has to do
    In 1970, not 1969.

    In 1968 and 1969 Labour were massively behind, by 1970 the polls had changed and Labour were expected to win (which is all that seems to be remembered in folklore), but that hadn't been the case a year earlier.

    December 1968 Gallup had the Tories on 55%, Labour on 28% for instance.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,903

    Is the Blackpool tower on fire?

    Twix seems to suggest a small fire near the top.
    Mars suggests a war, Snickers are amused, and Marathon hints at a long campaign.
  • Phil said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    Two things.
    Yes kids on farms are often a bit weird.

    And
    We let down children all the time. When it suits us. Housing is out of reach, most will never own a home. Mental health services are low priority. Total lack of concern for the climate. Piling debt on debt. Massive rise in child poverty.

    But it’s a disaster if we panic in a pandemic and lockdown schools for a few months?

    They look a bit selective, these complaints.
    Lets see for me.

    1: Housing is for me the number one problem in this country that needs fixing.
    2: Ironic, the claim is that there's more priorities than just healthcare and you want to talk about healthcare.
    3: I care about the climate and want to address climate change with an investment in clean technologies.
    4: I oppose piling debt on debt, indeed its why Brown was such a failure as we've discussed before.
    5: Not true.

    So housing, climate, debt and education - 4 out of 6 are priorities for me. Not a bad score.
    The three biggest problems in the UK are housing, housing, and housing.
    Housing availability, housing cost, housing quality.

    There is a shortage of accommodation in places (not everywhere). We need to build houses that communities need as opposed to houses the builders want to build. We see estates being thrown up with 4 bed + "executive style houses" where the need is affordable starter houses.

    The economy is screwed at least in a big part by housing costs. Mortgages are shooting up, rents are sky high - and landlords can't make a living either. Is anyone making money? We're spending so much, but what are we getting?

    We *have* to talk quality. Apartment blocks thrown up with "rapid-burn" panelling. Houses by the big housebuilders with no cavity insulation and endless snags that need fixing. We're building terrible housing.

    So yes, housing, housing, housing. But not more of the same. We need a rethink.
    Agree totally. There needs to be thinking outside the box, as there was after WWII, and find ways to construct cheap but quality housing. Recent attempts at alternative contstruction methods have been shut down by banks which won’t mortgage them.
    Government does, of course, have the power to obtain very cheap building land.

    Which is one way of building cheaper homes.
    Question - what stops councils buying up land, designing a layout, putting in services, then selling the plots to recoup costs?

    Obviously reposte - Woking. But in the boom times of the housing market, that would have been money for old rope.


    We (a local council ) are looking into this and it seems to be proble

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    Two things.
    Yes kids on farms are often a bit weird.

    And
    We let down children all the time. When it suits us. Housing is out of reach, most will never own a home. Mental health services are low priority. Total lack of concern for the climate. Piling debt on debt. Massive rise in child poverty.

    But it’s a disaster if we panic in a pandemic and lockdown schools for a few months?

    They look a bit selective, these complaints.
    Lets see for me.

    1: Housing is for me the number one problem in this country that needs fixing.
    2: Ironic, the claim is that there's more priorities than just healthcare and you want to talk about healthcare.
    3: I care about the climate and want to address climate change with an investment in clean technologies.
    4: I oppose piling debt on debt, indeed its why Brown was such a failure as we've discussed before.
    5: Not true.

    So housing, climate, debt and education - 4 out of 6 are priorities for me. Not a bad score.
    The three biggest problems in the UK are housing, housing, and housing.
    Housing availability, housing cost, housing quality.

    There is a shortage of accommodation in places (not everywhere). We need to build houses that communities need as opposed to houses the builders want to build. We see estates being thrown up with 4 bed + "executive style houses" where the need is affordable starter houses.

    The economy is screwed at least in a big part by housing costs. Mortgages are shooting up, rents are sky high - and landlords can't make a living either. Is anyone making money? We're spending so much, but what are we getting?

    We *have* to talk quality. Apartment blocks thrown up with "rapid-burn" panelling. Houses by the big housebuilders with no cavity insulation and endless snags that need fixing. We're building terrible housing.

    So yes, housing, housing, housing. But not more of the same. We need a rethink.
    Agree totally. There needs to be thinking outside the box, as there was after WWII, and find ways to construct cheap but quality housing. Recent attempts at alternative contstruction methods have been shut down by banks which won’t mortgage them.
    Government does, of course, have the power to obtain very cheap building land.

    Which is one way of building cheaper homes.
    Question - what stops councils buying up land, designing a layout, putting in services, then selling the plots to recoup costs?

    Obviously reposte - Woking. But in the boom times of the housing market, that would have been money for old rope.


    As a new councillor. This has been a thing for me. I will go with resources: frameworks, funding, capability, ambition, infrastructure.

    We can lay out a framework of standards for local provision but if it isn't saleable with 17% profit it isn't considered viable. His Majesty's Planning Inspectorate will tell us to do it again but cheaper.

    Electricity is in short supply. There is sewage spilling into our rivers. We don't want to make it worse and we can't get Severn Trent to take any interest in improving the service they manage. They are not our friends.

    As for DIY.
    I am told we would need £11m per year on top of all the available government grants to produce 250 affordable homes a year, and then we wouldn't have anyone to sell them to. We need land but we are not allowed to compulsorily purchase and definitely not below a fair price. Our projects are not ones we want to contemplate without meeting quality standards that the private sector isn't bothering with. Which makes us uncompetitive.

    its annoying.
    I'm aware that a change of government is immanent, and I want to be ready to take full advantage of opportunities but I cannot deal with the required infrastructure shortfall

    Labour have for some time floated the idea of giving LAs broader powers to compulsorily acquire land without paying ‘planning gain’, so ‘fair price’ might mean something very different indeed in a year’s time.
    How about just abolishing 'planning gain' in the first place, in which case everyone could build at an affordable price and not just politicians who answer to NIMBY electorates?
    How do you ‘just abolish planning gain’ ?
    What's the trigger that causes planning gain? Abolish that.

    Planning gain comes because there's a differential between the value of land with consent and land without it.

    Make planning automatic, go to a coded system, so that nobody requires to get consent anymore and the planning gain associated with getting consent vanishes.

    Nations that have done this have seen stable house prices rather than surging ones, because there's no artificial constraints on construction and no planning windfalls that cause gains - also reform taxation so that sitting on land is less than worthless because its taxed automatically all along whether its built on or not just the same.
    We’re talking about what might be be Labour policy, though.
    There’s pretty well no chance of your idea, whatever its merits, being adopted by either party. Certainly not the Tories.
    Why can't Labour do that?

    Other governments in other countries have - and Labour claim to acknowledge that housing costs are a great barrier to inequality and claim to be in favour of improving opportunities for all, so why not remove that barrier?

    There's no divine reason for planning consent, prior to its introduction England was building sufficient houses and the cost of land was only about 2% of the cost of housing - and the cost of housing was not the largest part of people's budgets.

    Since the introduction of planning regimes there have never been sufficient new houses built, and our housing crisis has got worse and worse.

    What's stopping Labour from embracing serious root and branch reform and fixing the problem at source?

    Sure it will piss off landlords who want to extract rent from tenants and see their wealth go up, but that's neither relevant nor Labour's target market for votes.

    Abolish planning gain and the housing crisis would be rapidly resolved. With house costs down, the cost of living crisis would be resolved, the inequalities between the well off and poor would rapidly shrink, and the cost to the Exchequer of housing support etc would plummet.

    What's Labour's problem with any of that?
    Another alternative is (I believe) the Danish approach: since planning gain is unearned income, if you want to build on a plot of land you have to sell it to the state at non-planning market value & then buy it back with planning permission.

    Planning gain accrues to the state, not the company or landowner.

    Whether you think this is moral probably depends very strongly on your politics, but since in BR’s world there wouldn’t be any planning gain anyway he ought to be entirely in favour of this system, surely :)

    One obvious flaw is that it gives the state an incentive not to give out “too much” planning permission as this would reduce the income from planning gain. Perhaps one can make the transaction mandatory, so that planning in such circumstances cannot be refused?
    There still is planning gain, you've just changed who has the gain and given NIMBY politicians another reason to refuse permission, something you've already acknowledged.

    So yeah, not my preferred model.

    Why not just abolish planning gain in the first place?

    It lowers inequality, lowers housing costs, lowers the need for housing benefits which are a glorified incentive to landlords.

    What's not to like for Labour?
  • isam said:

    pm215 said:

    Not that I bet, but my heart wants a spring election and therefore my head thinks an autumn one more likely...

    Sunak, I'm sure, would prefer a spring election, because that implies that Conservative poll ratings will be better by then. Thing is, that's insanely unlikely.

    As I highlighted last month, the scale of final year recovery the Conservatives need to even lose the next election narrowly has been achieved once - Labour ahead of 1970. I don't look at Sunak and think 'he's a Wilson-level operator'.

    https://twitter.com/Dylan_Difford/status/1734613079135326508

    But if a feel good (or more accurately, feel less bad) budget doesn't do the trick, what does he do? Any budget bounce will have dissipated by October.
    I don’t get it - Wilson’s Labour were way ahead in the polls in 1970, and the Tory win was a huge surprise. So Wilson threw away a big lead, that’s not comparable with what Sunak has to do
    The Conservative lead in late '68/early '69 was massive; roundabout C50L30.

    (Source: https://www.markpack.org.uk/opinion-polls/ Oddly, there doesn't seem to be a wiki page for the '66-'70 polling)

    You're right that Wilson started the campaign itself with a big lead, which then vanished by election day.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    On topic, has anyone ever heard of Alexander Stafford before ?

    Yes, he was PPS to Boris Johnson.
    Just wiki’d him.
    Seems a right prat.
    Well he’s an Oxford man, what do you expect ?
    Indeed.
    .. Stafford described himself as belonging to the political tribe of David Cameron and was a supporter of Cameron's Big Society policy "as things like Free Schools give power to local bodies. People know best how to run their own lives." One of Stafford's contributions at Prime Minister's Questions in 2021 was described as that "of a proper old-school Law and Order Tory: tough on crime and anti-social behaviour."..

    And a fan of hydrogen.

    An oddity.
    He likes hot air?
    I think you are mixing your Zeppelins with your Mongolfieres.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730
    eristdoof said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    On topic, has anyone ever heard of Alexander Stafford before ?

    Yes, he was PPS to Boris Johnson.
    Just wiki’d him.
    Seems a right prat.
    Well he’s an Oxford man, what do you expect ?
    Indeed.
    .. Stafford described himself as belonging to the political tribe of David Cameron and was a supporter of Cameron's Big Society policy "as things like Free Schools give power to local bodies. People know best how to run their own lives." One of Stafford's contributions at Prime Minister's Questions in 2021 was described as that "of a proper old-school Law and Order Tory: tough on crime and anti-social behaviour."..

    And a fan of hydrogen.

    An oddity.
    He likes hot air?
    I think you are mixing your Zeppelins with your Mongolfieres.
    Arrr, 100%.
  • ajbajb Posts: 147

    Is the Blackpool tower on fire?

    Yes it is

    https://twitter.com/sked03/status/1740381627094827220
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    pm215 said:

    Not that I bet, but my heart wants a spring election and therefore my head thinks an autumn one more likely...

    Sunak, I'm sure, would prefer a spring election, because that implies that Conservative poll ratings will be better by then. Thing is, that's insanely unlikely.

    As I highlighted last month, the scale of final year recovery the Conservatives need to even lose the next election narrowly has been achieved once - Labour ahead of 1970. I don't look at Sunak and think 'he's a Wilson-level operator'.

    https://twitter.com/Dylan_Difford/status/1734613079135326508

    But if a feel good (or more accurately, feel less bad) budget doesn't do the trick, what does he do? Any budget bounce will have dissipated by October.
    I don’t get it - Wilson’s Labour were way ahead in the polls in 1970, and the Tory win was a huge surprise. So Wilson threw away a big lead, that’s not comparable with what Sunak has to do
    In 1970, not 1969.

    In 1968 and 1969 Labour were massively behind, by 1970 the polls had changed and Labour were expected to win (which is all that seems to be remembered in folklore), but that hadn't been the case a year earlier.

    December 1968 Gallup had the Tories on 55%, Labour on 28% for instance.
    Righto. That is incredible
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,737
    On topic, if I'm Labour I'm absolutely talking up May as "what we've heard and are preparing for" so if they don't go for it after the budget, can push the line that the Tories have bottled it and are squatting in No. 10. Would be some just revenge too.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,652
    Oct/Nov, I think, for the GE but I hope I think wrong and it's May. I'm ready and I'd like it out of the way before the US one. I need to give both these elections my all. That will be impossible if they're too close together.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,394
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    On topic, has anyone ever heard of Alexander Stafford before ?

    Yes, he was PPS to Boris Johnson.
    Just wiki’d him.
    Seems a right prat.
    Well he’s an Oxford man, what do you expect ?
    Indeed.
    .. Stafford described himself as belonging to the political tribe of David Cameron and was a supporter of Cameron's Big Society policy "as things like Free Schools give power to local bodies. People know best how to run their own lives." One of Stafford's contributions at Prime Minister's Questions in 2021 was described as that "of a proper old-school Law and Order Tory: tough on crime and anti-social behaviour."..

    And a fan of hydrogen.

    An oddity.
    He likes hot air?
    No. Somebody told him that hydrogen was reaaaaly green and without a moment's rational thought decided to support it despite being the stupidest stupidest stupidy-stupidest idea on God's green Earth.
  • As we were discussing yesterday, Israel has shown remarkable restraint in its fight against Hamas and done what it can to minimise civilian casualties, unlike Hamas who of course aim to maximise them - and rapes, and mutilations and more.

    I see Israel are showing their humanity once more here too acknowledging when they make mistakes and saying that they were wrong to use a particular munition when doing a strike against Hamas as it caused more than necessary collateral damage: http://tinyurl.com/whf8efea

    Everyone makes mistakes, not everyone admits them, acknowledges them and seeks to learn from them to avoid them in the future. Kudos to Israel for admitting when they make a mistake and hopefully they continue to do what they can to minimise collateral damage in this existential war for the complete destruction of Hamas.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited December 2023
    ajb said:

    Is the Blackpool tower on fire?

    Yes it is

    https://twitter.com/sked03/status/1740381627094827220
    People are saying that’s orange tarpaulin flapping in the wind…looks like it & doesn’t seem to be much smoke… But there are fire engines so must be I suppose

    Loads of reporters are asking to use that footage. My money is on it being a wind up
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730
    edited December 2023
    viewcode said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    On topic, has anyone ever heard of Alexander Stafford before ?

    Yes, he was PPS to Boris Johnson.
    Just wiki’d him.
    Seems a right prat.
    Well he’s an Oxford man, what do you expect ?
    Indeed.
    .. Stafford described himself as belonging to the political tribe of David Cameron and was a supporter of Cameron's Big Society policy "as things like Free Schools give power to local bodies. People know best how to run their own lives." One of Stafford's contributions at Prime Minister's Questions in 2021 was described as that "of a proper old-school Law and Order Tory: tough on crime and anti-social behaviour."..

    And a fan of hydrogen.

    An oddity.
    He likes hot air?
    No. Somebody told him that hydrogen was reaaaaly green and without a moment's rational thought decided to support it despite being the stupidest stupidest stupidy-stupidest idea on God's green Earth.
    You do exaggerate.

    Remember, Nicky Morgan thought Amanda Spielman was the right person to lead OFSTED.

    And even if we discount that one since it's now more or less universally accepted Morgan was wrong, there are still people out there who think Trump would be a good President.
  • AP (via Seattle Times) - Boebert switches congressional districts, avoiding a Democratic opponent who has far outraised her

    DENVER (AP) — Republican Rep. Lauren Boebert announced Wednesday she is switching congressional districts, avoiding a likely rematch against a Democrat who has far outraised her and following an embarrassing moment of groping and vaping that shook even loyal supporters.

    In a Facebook video Wednesday evening, Boebert announced she would enter the crowded Republican primary in retiring Rep. Ken Buck’s seat in the eastern side of the state, leaving the more competitive 3rd District seat she barely won last year — and which she was in peril of losing next year as some in her party have soured on her controversial style.

    Boebert implied in the video that her departure from the district would help Republicans retain the seat, saying, “I will not allow dark money that is directed at destroying me personally to steal this seat. It’s not fair to the 3rd District and the conservatives there who have fought so hard for our victories.”

    “The Aspen donors, George Soros and Hollywood actors that are trying to buy this seat, well they can go pound sand,” she said.

    Boebert called it “a fresh start,” acknowledging the rough year following a divorce with her husband and video of her misbehaving with a date at a performance of the musical “Beetlejuice” in Denver. The scandal in September rocked some of her faithful supporters, who saw it as a transgression of conservative, Christian values and for which Boebert apologized at events throughout her district.

    She already faced a primary challenge in her district, as well as a general election face-off with Democrat Adam Frisch, a former Aspen city council member who came within a few hundred votes of beating her in 2022. A rematch was expected, with Frisch raising at least $7.7 million to Boebert’s $2.4 million.

    Instead, if Boebert wins the primary to succeed Buck she will run in the state’s most conservative district, which former President Donald Trump won by about 20 percentage points in 2020, in contrast to his margin of about 8 percentage points in her district. While it’s not required that a representative live in the congressional district they represent, only the state the district is in, Boebert said she would be moving — a shift from Colorado’s western Rocky Mountain peaks and high desert mesas to its eastern expanse of prairie grass and ranching enclaves.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,394

    isam said:

    pm215 said:

    Not that I bet, but my heart wants a spring election and therefore my head thinks an autumn one more likely...

    Sunak, I'm sure, would prefer a spring election, because that implies that Conservative poll ratings will be better by then. Thing is, that's insanely unlikely.

    As I highlighted last month, the scale of final year recovery the Conservatives need to even lose the next election narrowly has been achieved once - Labour ahead of 1970. I don't look at Sunak and think 'he's a Wilson-level operator'.

    https://twitter.com/Dylan_Difford/status/1734613079135326508

    But if a feel good (or more accurately, feel less bad) budget doesn't do the trick, what does he do? Any budget bounce will have dissipated by October.
    I don’t get it - Wilson’s Labour were way ahead in the polls in 1970, and the Tory win was a huge surprise. So Wilson threw away a big lead, that’s not comparable with what Sunak has to do
    The Conservative lead in late '68/early '69 was massive; roundabout C50L30.

    (Source: https://www.markpack.org.uk/opinion-polls/ Oddly, there doesn't seem to be a wiki page for the '66-'70 polling)

    You're right that Wilson started the campaign itself with a big lead, which then vanished by election day.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_United_Kingdom_general_election#Opinion_poll_summary
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,865
    viewcode said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    On topic, has anyone ever heard of Alexander Stafford before ?

    Yes, he was PPS to Boris Johnson.
    Just wiki’d him.
    Seems a right prat.
    Well he’s an Oxford man, what do you expect ?
    Indeed.
    .. Stafford described himself as belonging to the political tribe of David Cameron and was a supporter of Cameron's Big Society policy "as things like Free Schools give power to local bodies. People know best how to run their own lives." One of Stafford's contributions at Prime Minister's Questions in 2021 was described as that "of a proper old-school Law and Order Tory: tough on crime and anti-social behaviour."..

    And a fan of hydrogen.

    An oddity.
    He likes hot air?
    No. Somebody told him that hydrogen was reaaaaly green and without a moment's rational thought decided to support it despite being the stupidest stupidest stupidy-stupidest idea on God's green Earth.
    See the Economist Christmas double issue for a different take (great uncertainty but not impossible, and there's trillions of tons of the stuff lying underground that no-one noticed and maybe Australia both has lots and isn't run by dictators).
  • viewcode said:

    isam said:

    pm215 said:

    Not that I bet, but my heart wants a spring election and therefore my head thinks an autumn one more likely...

    Sunak, I'm sure, would prefer a spring election, because that implies that Conservative poll ratings will be better by then. Thing is, that's insanely unlikely.

    As I highlighted last month, the scale of final year recovery the Conservatives need to even lose the next election narrowly has been achieved once - Labour ahead of 1970. I don't look at Sunak and think 'he's a Wilson-level operator'.

    https://twitter.com/Dylan_Difford/status/1734613079135326508

    But if a feel good (or more accurately, feel less bad) budget doesn't do the trick, what does he do? Any budget bounce will have dissipated by October.
    I don’t get it - Wilson’s Labour were way ahead in the polls in 1970, and the Tory win was a huge surprise. So Wilson threw away a big lead, that’s not comparable with what Sunak has to do
    The Conservative lead in late '68/early '69 was massive; roundabout C50L30.

    (Source: https://www.markpack.org.uk/opinion-polls/ Oddly, there doesn't seem to be a wiki page for the '66-'70 polling)

    You're right that Wilson started the campaign itself with a big lead, which then vanished by election day.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_United_Kingdom_general_election#Opinion_poll_summary
    That's not a good summary as it only shows the final polls, which leads people to believe that Labour were always in the lead.

    A year earlier, it was anything but the case.

  • Anyhoo, I have a 4 day non refundable stay in Henley starting the 3rd of May.

    Just watch Sunak call an election for then, he’s an absolute tosspot.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,865
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    On topic, has anyone ever heard of Alexander Stafford before ?

    Yes, he was PPS to Boris Johnson.
    Just wiki’d him.
    Seems a right prat.
    If he's right, then it's October.
    In terms of betting value, it may be worth looking at July-September, improbable as it may be.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469
    algarkirk said:

    viewcode said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    On topic, has anyone ever heard of Alexander Stafford before ?

    Yes, he was PPS to Boris Johnson.
    Just wiki’d him.
    Seems a right prat.
    Well he’s an Oxford man, what do you expect ?
    Indeed.
    .. Stafford described himself as belonging to the political tribe of David Cameron and was a supporter of Cameron's Big Society policy "as things like Free Schools give power to local bodies. People know best how to run their own lives." One of Stafford's contributions at Prime Minister's Questions in 2021 was described as that "of a proper old-school Law and Order Tory: tough on crime and anti-social behaviour."..

    And a fan of hydrogen.

    An oddity.
    He likes hot air?
    No. Somebody told him that hydrogen was reaaaaly green and without a moment's rational thought decided to support it despite being the stupidest stupidest stupidy-stupidest idea on God's green Earth.
    See the Economist Christmas double issue for a different take (great uncertainty but not impossible, and there's trillions of tons of the stuff lying underground that no-one noticed and maybe Australia both has lots and isn't run by dictators).
    The anti-hydrogen people are as stupid as the hydrogen-in-everything people. Hydrogen has a place; in fact, it might have several niches. Work on it should therefore continue. But it won't be in (say) cars at any large scale.

    That's a significant issue for 'green' issues: many people are so keen on their own 'solution' that they denigrate other people's. In reality we are likely to have a very mixed green economy.
  • As we were discussing yesterday, Israel has shown remarkable restraint in its fight against Hamas and done what it can to minimise civilian casualties, unlike Hamas who of course aim to maximise them - and rapes, and mutilations and more.

    I see Israel are showing their humanity once more here too acknowledging when they make mistakes and saying that they were wrong to use a particular munition when doing a strike against Hamas as it caused more than necessary collateral damage: http://tinyurl.com/whf8efea

    Everyone makes mistakes, not everyone admits them, acknowledges them and seeks to learn from them to avoid them in the future. Kudos to Israel for admitting when they make a mistake and hopefully they continue to do what they can to minimise collateral damage in this existential war for the complete destruction of Hamas.

    Yeah, they've only caused FIFTEEN TIMES as many deaths as Hamas.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127
    algarkirk said:

    viewcode said:

    isam said:

    pm215 said:

    Not that I bet, but my heart wants a spring election and therefore my head thinks an autumn one more likely...

    Sunak, I'm sure, would prefer a spring election, because that implies that Conservative poll ratings will be better by then. Thing is, that's insanely unlikely.

    As I highlighted last month, the scale of final year recovery the Conservatives need to even lose the next election narrowly has been achieved once - Labour ahead of 1970. I don't look at Sunak and think 'he's a Wilson-level operator'.

    https://twitter.com/Dylan_Difford/status/1734613079135326508

    But if a feel good (or more accurately, feel less bad) budget doesn't do the trick, what does he do? Any budget bounce will have dissipated by October.
    I don’t get it - Wilson’s Labour were way ahead in the polls in 1970, and the Tory win was a huge surprise. So Wilson threw away a big lead, that’s not comparable with what Sunak has to do
    The Conservative lead in late '68/early '69 was massive; roundabout C50L30.

    (Source: https://www.markpack.org.uk/opinion-polls/ Oddly, there doesn't seem to be a wiki page for the '66-'70 polling)

    You're right that Wilson started the campaign itself with a big lead, which then vanished by election day.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_United_Kingdom_general_election#Opinion_poll_summary
    I remember it well. I won 10p from a teacher who said Labour were certain to win and was trying to teach us about statistics by pointing to election polling. That was the high point of my political betting fortunes, which have been downhill ever since.
    Perhaps the lesson is that messing up the economy is not a formula for success.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469
    isam said:

    ajb said:

    Is the Blackpool tower on fire?

    Yes it is

    https://twitter.com/sked03/status/1740381627094827220
    People are saying that’s orange tarpaulin flapping in the wind…looks like it & doesn’t seem to be much smoke… But there are fire engines so must be I suppose

    Loads of reporters are asking to use that footage. My money is on it being a wind up
    Fire/flames are one of the tougher tasks any movie encoder has to do: so much so, such videos were a significant component of the test suites we had back when I was doing STBs. What we see there might be a tarpaulin, or it might just be artificats of the MPEG encoding of a heavily-zoomed image. Need better images to tell.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,453
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    On topic, has anyone ever heard of Alexander Stafford before ?

    Yes, he was PPS to Boris Johnson.
    Just wiki’d him.
    Seems a right prat.
    And you couldn’t tell that from “hot take”?
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,496

    algarkirk said:

    viewcode said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    On topic, has anyone ever heard of Alexander Stafford before ?

    Yes, he was PPS to Boris Johnson.
    Just wiki’d him.
    Seems a right prat.
    Well he’s an Oxford man, what do you expect ?
    Indeed.
    .. Stafford described himself as belonging to the political tribe of David Cameron and was a supporter of Cameron's Big Society policy "as things like Free Schools give power to local bodies. People know best how to run their own lives." One of Stafford's contributions at Prime Minister's Questions in 2021 was described as that "of a proper old-school Law and Order Tory: tough on crime and anti-social behaviour."..

    And a fan of hydrogen.

    An oddity.
    He likes hot air?
    No. Somebody told him that hydrogen was reaaaaly green and without a moment's rational thought decided to support it despite being the stupidest stupidest stupidy-stupidest idea on God's green Earth.
    See the Economist Christmas double issue for a different take (great uncertainty but not impossible, and there's trillions of tons of the stuff lying underground that no-one noticed and maybe Australia both has lots and isn't run by dictators).
    The anti-hydrogen people are as stupid as the hydrogen-in-everything people. Hydrogen has a place; in fact, it might have several niches. Work on it should therefore continue. But it won't be in (say) cars at any large scale.

    That's a significant issue for 'green' issues: many people are so keen on their own 'solution' that they denigrate other people's. In reality we are likely to have a very mixed green economy.
    given that hydrogen is the most common gas and 2/3rds of the atoms of water, you'd think that it's easy to get hold of and in a green way. the sad thing is that most commercially available hydrogen comes from oil.
  • As we were discussing yesterday, Israel has shown remarkable restraint in its fight against Hamas and done what it can to minimise civilian casualties, unlike Hamas who of course aim to maximise them - and rapes, and mutilations and more.

    I see Israel are showing their humanity once more here too acknowledging when they make mistakes and saying that they were wrong to use a particular munition when doing a strike against Hamas as it caused more than necessary collateral damage: http://tinyurl.com/whf8efea

    Everyone makes mistakes, not everyone admits them, acknowledges them and seeks to learn from them to avoid them in the future. Kudos to Israel for admitting when they make a mistake and hopefully they continue to do what they can to minimise collateral damage in this existential war for the complete destruction of Hamas.

    Yeah, they've only caused FIFTEEN TIMES as many deaths as Hamas.
    Allegedly, according to the known liars Hamas.

    And its irrelevant, they could have caused 100x as more deaths as Hamas and so long as all those deaths followed the rules of proportionality (which means targeting Hamas, and trying to minimise collateral damage) then they'd be entirely legitimate.

    Proportionality in war has absolutely nothing to do with a 1:1 death ratio.
  • Seattle Times ($) - Some WA Democrats push to get Rep. Dean Phillips on 2024 ballot as a Biden alternative

    President Joe Biden has made it clear he’s running for a second term, arguing he’s the best bet the Democrats have to once again beat Donald Trump. . . .

    Still, some Washington Democrats are seeking a choice — or, a backup plan — just in case.

    They’re pushing to get Minnesota Congressman Dean Phillips on Washington’s Democratic presidential primary ballot on March 12.

    “The problem isn’t just that Biden is low in the polls. It’s that he is very, very old and a lot can happen in six months,” said Richard May, a Blaine city council member who is leading the volunteer effort. “This isn’t about negativity. It’s good to have options.”

    The hurdles to get Phillips on the ballot in Washington are not high. His supporters just need to gather 1,000 signatures from registered voters by Jan. 5 and pay a $2,500 fee, according to the state Democratic Party.

    May said volunteers have already gathered more than 1,000 signatures, but are still getting some more to make sure they have a cushion in case some are invalid.

    Under state law, it’s up to the Republican and Democratic parties to tell the state by Jan. 9 which candidates will be placed on the March 12 presidential primary ballots. (Voters can choose to participate in one party’s primary or the other — but not both — by signing an attestation declaring their party preference.) . . . .

    Some states have made it more difficult for would-be Biden challengers to participate in primaries or caucuses ballot, with Florida, for example, canceling its Democratic primary altogether.

    Such obstacles haven’t been erected in Washington.

    Shasti Conrad, the state Democratic Party chair, said Phillips will be submitted for the ballot if his campaign gets the required signatures.

    Conrad said she’s also heard rumblings about self-help author Marianne Williamson trying to get on Washington’s ballot, but hasn’t been contacted by anyone with the campaign.

    On the Republican side, some in Washington have backed Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis and have jumped through the hoops required to get him on the state’s ballot along with Trump, said Reagan Dunn, the Metropolitan King County Councilmember who is among the local DeSantis supporters. The GOP ballot qualifications include getting a dozen signatures from members of the party’s state committee and paying a $20,000 filing fee, Dunn said.

    A state GOP spokesperson did not respond by Wednesday afternoon with which other candidates might qualify for the ballot here, though former South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley’s recent polling and fundraising surge would make her another likely contender.

    Washington’s presidential primary could be largely irrelevant by the time it rolls around.

    The state’s March 12 vote will come one week after Super Tuesday’s contests in 16 states, so it’s possible both parties’ nominations will largely be sewn up by then. . . .
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,474

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Couple of points on this morning’s interesting discussions:

    Hull had its first wave in November 2020 and the schools stayed open, indeed were not allowed to close (though years groups were sometimes sent home). Schools coped and teaching and learning continued in the classroom for the majority. Personally, I would have vaccinated teachers early on in 2021 and avoided any further talk of schools closing.

    On house building, theoretical productivity per annum may be irrelevant if a bricklayer can earn a good living without working every hour god sends.

    Ok, I'll buy it. How did Hull avoid the state-mandated lockdown in March 2020 and the virus for another eight months?

    Did Kingston Communications not take calls from Whitehall?
    Hull did indeed have the mandated lockdown from March through to July but infections were very low… they then had a big spike in the November, when schools were back open, which pre-dated the Kent variant. See chart.


    Ok, having got that clarification:

    1) Everywhere had a big spike in November 2020. Most schools stayed open. This was extremely difficult, not least because the money needed to keep them open and pay for supply teachers, disinfectant etc was promised but only rarely forthcoming. The disruption inside them was also extensive, particularly with classes losing members and/or whole groups. The damage of dogmatically keeping them open for all students rather than showing some flexibility on this point to keep things going as well as possible probably did more damage in the long run than full closures would have done.

    2) Your own figures show a biggish spike in March in Hull. As nationally, this was likely underreported due to the inadequacy of the testing regime. I don't think you can say 'November was the first wave.'

    3) It wasn't just about vaccinating teachers, as I patiently made clear at the time. In fact, although teachers were at fairly high risk of exposure they were at comparatively low risk of dying as due to our government's longstanding incompetence they tend to be quite a bit younger than the average population. The issue was with in school transmission sending it rampaging through the community. My exact words were 'it's no use having teachers vaccinated so we can reopen schools if the price of that is dead parents.'

    4) Finally, since schools were actually reopened well in advance of the vaccine programme getting anywhere near most teachers, never mind children, following a decision by the drunken weirdos of the DfE to reopen on 8th March come what may (a decision which was taken at the start of February and leaked to The Times) and there was never any serious talk of closing them again, your argument on 'vaccinating early in 2021' fails anyway.
    1) Money not being forthcoming is a choice - a bad choice - and money should be forthcoming for education and would have cost magnitudes less than lockdown did.

    3) Using the logic that teachers are young, so not very high risk, the same is true with parents too. Parents tend to be younger adults. Parents of kids at school today are far, far more likely to be Millenials than Boomers. Far more likely is the price would be dead great-grandparents or grandparents. Grandparents and great-grandparents are to be cherished, but their grandchildren's or great-grandchildren's education is not something to be sacrificed to prolong their life.

    4) 8th March 2021 was absolutely not the time to be opening schools, I completely agree. Schools should have been open - and remained open - from March 2020 onwards instead, with 2020 hindsight.
    It's not about whether the time was 'right' or not. As it happened, the reopening went ahead without ill effects.

    The issue was, as always through the pandemic, it was being made for all the wrong reasons.
    Completely agreed.

    If the right reasons were being used, we'd have never closed schools in the first place.

    The first lockdown was perhaps excusable, people didn't know what was going on. But by the second lockdown onwards, we knew children weren't at any great risk themselves - so sacrificing their education in order to prolong the lives of others was a sick and twisted choice.
    Some of us think that prolonging the lives of people is a good thing to do.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    ajb said:

    Is the Blackpool tower on fire?

    Yes it is

    https://twitter.com/sked03/status/1740381627094827220
    People are saying that’s orange tarpaulin flapping in the wind…looks like it & doesn’t seem to be much smoke… But there are fire engines so must be I suppose

    Loads of reporters are asking to use that footage. My money is on it being a wind up
    Fire/flames are one of the tougher tasks any movie encoder has to do: so much so, such videos were a significant component of the test suites we had back when I was doing STBs. What we see there might be a tarpaulin, or it might just be artificats of the MPEG encoding of a heavily-zoomed image. Need better images to tell.
    Loads of fire engines there now, and the Fire brigade account is talking about it, so must surely be a legitimate fire.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,038
    Off topic, but important for anyone who bets on American politics:
    "A new study from Syracuse University’s Newhouse School of Public Communications found that just 3.4% of American journalists are Republicans.
    . . . .
    When the first iteration of the study came out over 50 years ago, 35.5% of respondents said they were Democrats, 25.7% said they were Republicans, and 32.5% said they were Independents. The percentage that call themselves Democrats or independents have bounced around over the years, with the proportion of Democrats reaching a high of 44.1% in 1992."
    source: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/study-finds-that-just-3-4-of-american-journalists-are-republicans/ar-AA1m6Tf6?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=41d2edafd0ec40a09c509a2a259194a1&ei=175

    Humans being what we are, you should not expect unbiased coverage of American politics from most American journalists.

    (As it happens, our local monopoly newspaper, the Seattle Times, provides many good examples of this problem. From time to time I see pieces in the newspaper that read like satires, they are so far into current leftist thinking.)
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Couple of points on this morning’s interesting discussions:

    Hull had its first wave in November 2020 and the schools stayed open, indeed were not allowed to close (though years groups were sometimes sent home). Schools coped and teaching and learning continued in the classroom for the majority. Personally, I would have vaccinated teachers early on in 2021 and avoided any further talk of schools closing.

    On house building, theoretical productivity per annum may be irrelevant if a bricklayer can earn a good living without working every hour god sends.

    Ok, I'll buy it. How did Hull avoid the state-mandated lockdown in March 2020 and the virus for another eight months?

    Did Kingston Communications not take calls from Whitehall?
    Hull did indeed have the mandated lockdown from March through to July but infections were very low… they then had a big spike in the November, when schools were back open, which pre-dated the Kent variant. See chart.


    Ok, having got that clarification:

    1) Everywhere had a big spike in November 2020. Most schools stayed open. This was extremely difficult, not least because the money needed to keep them open and pay for supply teachers, disinfectant etc was promised but only rarely forthcoming. The disruption inside them was also extensive, particularly with classes losing members and/or whole groups. The damage of dogmatically keeping them open for all students rather than showing some flexibility on this point to keep things going as well as possible probably did more damage in the long run than full closures would have done.

    2) Your own figures show a biggish spike in March in Hull. As nationally, this was likely underreported due to the inadequacy of the testing regime. I don't think you can say 'November was the first wave.'

    3) It wasn't just about vaccinating teachers, as I patiently made clear at the time. In fact, although teachers were at fairly high risk of exposure they were at comparatively low risk of dying as due to our government's longstanding incompetence they tend to be quite a bit younger than the average population. The issue was with in school transmission sending it rampaging through the community. My exact words were 'it's no use having teachers vaccinated so we can reopen schools if the price of that is dead parents.'

    4) Finally, since schools were actually reopened well in advance of the vaccine programme getting anywhere near most teachers, never mind children, following a decision by the drunken weirdos of the DfE to reopen on 8th March come what may (a decision which was taken at the start of February and leaked to The Times) and there was never any serious talk of closing them again, your argument on 'vaccinating early in 2021' fails anyway.
    1) Money not being forthcoming is a choice - a bad choice - and money should be forthcoming for education and would have cost magnitudes less than lockdown did.

    3) Using the logic that teachers are young, so not very high risk, the same is true with parents too. Parents tend to be younger adults. Parents of kids at school today are far, far more likely to be Millenials than Boomers. Far more likely is the price would be dead great-grandparents or grandparents. Grandparents and great-grandparents are to be cherished, but their grandchildren's or great-grandchildren's education is not something to be sacrificed to prolong their life.

    4) 8th March 2021 was absolutely not the time to be opening schools, I completely agree. Schools should have been open - and remained open - from March 2020 onwards instead, with 2020 hindsight.
    It's not about whether the time was 'right' or not. As it happened, the reopening went ahead without ill effects.

    The issue was, as always through the pandemic, it was being made for all the wrong reasons.
    Completely agreed.

    If the right reasons were being used, we'd have never closed schools in the first place.

    The first lockdown was perhaps excusable, people didn't know what was going on. But by the second lockdown onwards, we knew children weren't at any great risk themselves - so sacrificing their education in order to prolong the lives of others was a sick and twisted choice.
    Some of us think that prolonging the lives of people is a good thing to do.
    Some of us think that educating the young is a good thing to do.

    Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, yes prolonging lives is good if it has no cost, but not at any cost. That's why we have things like NICE which will say no to life prolonging medicines if they're too expensive - and the cost of damaging education should have been factored in as prohibitively expensive.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469
    spudgfsh said:

    algarkirk said:

    viewcode said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    On topic, has anyone ever heard of Alexander Stafford before ?

    Yes, he was PPS to Boris Johnson.
    Just wiki’d him.
    Seems a right prat.
    Well he’s an Oxford man, what do you expect ?
    Indeed.
    .. Stafford described himself as belonging to the political tribe of David Cameron and was a supporter of Cameron's Big Society policy "as things like Free Schools give power to local bodies. People know best how to run their own lives." One of Stafford's contributions at Prime Minister's Questions in 2021 was described as that "of a proper old-school Law and Order Tory: tough on crime and anti-social behaviour."..

    And a fan of hydrogen.

    An oddity.
    He likes hot air?
    No. Somebody told him that hydrogen was reaaaaly green and without a moment's rational thought decided to support it despite being the stupidest stupidest stupidy-stupidest idea on God's green Earth.
    See the Economist Christmas double issue for a different take (great uncertainty but not impossible, and there's trillions of tons of the stuff lying underground that no-one noticed and maybe Australia both has lots and isn't run by dictators).
    The anti-hydrogen people are as stupid as the hydrogen-in-everything people. Hydrogen has a place; in fact, it might have several niches. Work on it should therefore continue. But it won't be in (say) cars at any large scale.

    That's a significant issue for 'green' issues: many people are so keen on their own 'solution' that they denigrate other people's. In reality we are likely to have a very mixed green economy.
    given that hydrogen is the most common gas and 2/3rds of the atoms of water, you'd think that it's easy to get hold of and in a green way. the sad thing is that most commercially available hydrogen comes from oil.
    Indeed. Blue versus green hydrogen.

    The problem is that splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen requires oodles of energy. From vague memory, it takes slightly less energy to split 20 grams of water than it does to boil over a kg (litre) of water. And boiling water requires a lot of energy.

    But if you had an excess of green energy, say solar or wind, with no sink destination nearby, it may be worth splitting the water into green hydrogen.

    All from vague memory, so treat with care
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,453

    Phil said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    Two things.
    Yes kids on farms are often a bit weird.

    And
    We let down children all the time. When it suits us. Housing is out of reach, most will never own a home. Mental health services are low priority. Total lack of concern for the climate. Piling debt on debt. Massive rise in child poverty.

    But it’s a disaster if we panic in a pandemic and lockdown schools for a few months?

    They look a bit selective, these complaints.
    Lets see for me.

    1: Housing is for me the number one problem in this country that needs fixing.
    2: Ironic, the claim is that there's more priorities than just healthcare and you want to talk about healthcare.
    3: I care about the climate and want to address climate change with an investment in clean technologies.
    4: I oppose piling debt on debt, indeed its why Brown was such a failure as we've discussed before.
    5: Not true.

    So housing, climate, debt and education - 4 out of 6 are priorities for me. Not a bad score.
    The three biggest problems in the UK are housing, housing, and housing.
    Housing availability, housing cost, housing quality.

    There is a shortage of accommodation in places (not everywhere). We need to build houses that communities need as opposed to houses the builders want to build. We see estates being thrown up with 4 bed + "executive style houses" where the need is affordable starter houses.

    The economy is screwed at least in a big part by housing costs. Mortgages are shooting up, rents are sky high - and landlords can't make a living either. Is anyone making money? We're spending so much, but what are we getting?

    We *have* to talk quality. Apartment blocks thrown up with "rapid-burn" panelling. Houses by the big housebuilders with no cavity insulation and endless snags that need fixing. We're building terrible housing.

    So yes, housing, housing, housing. But not more of the same. We need a rethink.
    Agree totally. There needs to be thinking outside the box, as there was after WWII, and find ways to construct cheap but quality housing. Recent attempts at alternative contstruction methods have been shut down by banks which won’t mortgage them.
    Government does, of course, have the power to obtain very cheap building land.

    Which is one way of building cheaper homes.
    Question - what stops councils buying up land, designing a layout, putting in services, then selling the plots to recoup costs?

    Obviously reposte - Woking. But in the boom times of the housing market, that would have been money for old rope.


    We (a local council ) are looking into this and it seems to be proble

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    Two things.
    Yes kids on farms are often a bit weird.

    And
    We let down children all the time. When it suits us. Housing is out of reach, most will never own a home. Mental health services are low priority. Total lack of concern for the climate. Piling debt on debt. Massive rise in child poverty.

    But it’s a disaster if we panic in a pandemic and lockdown schools for a few months?

    They look a bit selective, these complaints.
    Lets see for me.

    1: Housing is for me the number one problem in this country that needs fixing.
    2: Ironic, the claim is that there's more priorities than just healthcare and you want to talk about healthcare.
    3: I care about the climate and want to address climate change with an investment in clean technologies.
    4: I oppose piling debt on debt, indeed its why Brown was such a failure as we've discussed before.
    5: Not true.

    So housing, climate, debt and education - 4 out of 6 are priorities for me. Not a bad score.
    The three biggest problems in the UK are housing, housing, and housing.
    Housing availability, housing cost, housing quality.

    There is a shortage of accommodation in places (not everywhere). We need to build houses that communities need as opposed to houses the builders want to build. We see estates being thrown up with 4 bed + "executive style houses" where the need is affordable starter houses.

    The economy is screwed at least in a big part by housing costs. Mortgages are shooting up, rents are sky high - and landlords can't make a living either. Is anyone making money? We're spending so much, but what are we getting?

    We *have* to talk quality. Apartment blocks thrown up with "rapid-burn" panelling. Houses by the big housebuilders with no cavity insulation and endless snags that need fixing. We're building terrible housing.

    So yes, housing, housing, housing. But not more of the same. We need a rethink.
    Agree totally. There needs to be thinking outside the box, as there was after WWII, and find ways to construct cheap but quality housing. Recent attempts at alternative contstruction methods have been shut down by banks which won’t mortgage them.
    Government does, of course, have the power to obtain very cheap building land.

    Which is one way of building cheaper homes.
    Question - what stops councils buying up land, designing a layout, putting in services, then selling the plots to recoup costs?

    Obviously reposte - Woking. But in the boom times of the housing market, that would have been money for old rope.


    As a new councillor. This has been a thing for me. I will go with resources: frameworks, funding, capability, ambition, infrastructure.

    We can lay out a framework of standards for local provision but if it isn't saleable with 17% profit it isn't considered viable. His Majesty's Planning Inspectorate will tell us to do it again but cheaper.

    Electricity is in short supply. There is sewage spilling into our rivers. We don't want to make it worse and we can't get Severn Trent to take any interest in improving the service they manage. They are not our friends.

    As for DIY.
    I am told we would need £11m per year on top of all the available government grants to produce 250 affordable homes a year, and then we wouldn't have anyone to sell them to. We need land but we are not allowed to compulsorily purchase and definitely not below a fair price. Our projects are not ones we want to contemplate without meeting quality standards that the private sector isn't bothering with. Which makes us uncompetitive.

    its annoying.
    I'm aware that a change of government is immanent, and I want to be ready to take full advantage of opportunities but I cannot deal with the required infrastructure shortfall

    Labour have for some time floated the idea of giving LAs broader powers to compulsorily acquire land without paying ‘planning gain’, so ‘fair price’ might mean something very different indeed in a year’s time.
    How about just abolishing 'planning gain' in the first place, in which case everyone could build at an affordable price and not just politicians who answer to NIMBY electorates?
    How do you ‘just abolish planning gain’ ?
    What's the trigger that causes planning gain? Abolish that.

    Planning gain comes because there's a differential between the value of land with consent and land without it.

    Make planning automatic, go to a coded system, so that nobody requires to get consent anymore and the planning gain associated with getting consent vanishes.

    Nations that have done this have seen stable house prices rather than surging ones, because there's no artificial constraints on construction and no planning windfalls that cause gains - also reform taxation so that sitting on land is less than worthless because its taxed automatically all along whether its built on or not just the same.
    We’re talking about what might be be Labour policy, though.
    There’s pretty well no chance of your idea, whatever its merits, being adopted by either party. Certainly not the Tories.
    Why can't Labour do that?

    Other governments in other countries have - and Labour claim to acknowledge that housing costs are a great barrier to inequality and claim to be in favour of improving opportunities for all, so why not remove that barrier?

    There's no divine reason for planning consent, prior to its introduction England was building sufficient houses and the cost of land was only about 2% of the cost of housing - and the cost of housing was not the largest part of people's budgets.


    Since the introduction of planning regimes there have never been sufficient new houses built, and our housing crisis has got worse and worse.

    What's stopping Labour from embracing serious root and branch reform and fixing the problem at source?

    Sure it will piss off landlords who want to extract rent from tenants and see their wealth go up, but that's neither relevant nor Labour's target market for votes.

    Abolish planning gain and the housing crisis would be rapidly resolved. With house costs down, the cost of living crisis would be resolved, the inequalities between the well off and poor would rapidly shrink, and the cost to the Exchequer of housing support etc would plummet.

    What's Labour's problem with any of that?
    Another alternative is (I believe) the Danish approach: since planning gain is unearned income, if you want to build on a plot of land you have to sell it to the state at non-planning market value & then buy it back with planning permission.

    Planning gain accrues to the state, not the company or landowner.

    Whether you think this is moral probably depends very strongly on your politics, but since in BR’s world there wouldn’t be any planning gain anyway he ought to be entirely in favour of this system, surely :)

    One obvious flaw is that it gives the state an incentive not to give out “too much” planning permission as this would reduce the income from planning gain. Perhaps one can make the transaction mandatory, so that planning in such circumstances cannot be refused?
    There still is planning gain, you've just changed who has the gain and given NIMBY politicians another reason to refuse permission, something you've already acknowledged.

    So yeah, not my preferred model.

    Why not just abolish planning gain in the first place?

    It lowers inequality, lowers housing costs, lowers the need for housing benefits which are a glorified incentive to landlords.

    What's not to like for Labour?
    Wouldn’t the price of land go up if anyone could build on it
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Former prime minister Tony Blair was keen to relocate the then Premier League side Wimbledon to Belfast in 1997, previously confidential state papers have revealed

    https://x.com/skysportsnews/status/1740387026514358425?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,905
    Good afternoon everyone.

    An interesting piece about how Powers of Attorney can be abused.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67773394

    (Trailing a Radio Programme due to broadcast on Sunday)
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001tbbk
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    On topic, has anyone ever heard of Alexander Stafford before ?

    Yes, he was PPS to Boris Johnson.
    Just wiki’d him.
    Seems a right prat.
    Well he’s an Oxford man, what do you expect ?
    Indeed.
    .. Stafford described himself as belonging to the political tribe of David Cameron and was a supporter of Cameron's Big Society policy "as things like Free Schools give power to local bodies. People know best how to run their own lives." One of Stafford's contributions at Prime Minister's Questions in 2021 was described as that "of a proper old-school Law and Order Tory: tough on crime and anti-social behaviour."..

    And a fan of hydrogen.

    An oddity.
    I'll stick with the oxygen, thanks.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,286
    MattW said:

    Good afternoon everyone.

    An interesting piece about how Powers of Attorney can be abused.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67773394

    (Trailing a Radio Programme due to broadcast on Sunday)
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001tbbk

    One of the most read stories deals with a related topic:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-67832513

    Cher has reportedly filed for a conservatorship of her son Elijah Blue Allman due to his alleged substance abuse and mental health issues.

    Court documents seen by US media, such as People and TMZ, reportedly claim Mr Allman, 47, is "substantially unable to manage his financial resources".
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,474

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    On topic, has anyone ever heard of Alexander Stafford before ?

    Yes, he was PPS to Boris Johnson.
    Just wiki’d him.
    Seems a right prat.
    Well he’s an Oxford man, what do you expect ?
    Indeed.
    .. Stafford described himself as belonging to the political tribe of David Cameron and was a supporter of Cameron's Big Society policy "as things like Free Schools give power to local bodies. People know best how to run their own lives." One of Stafford's contributions at Prime Minister's Questions in 2021 was described as that "of a proper old-school Law and Order Tory: tough on crime and anti-social behaviour."..

    And a fan of hydrogen.

    An oddity.
    I'll stick with the oxygen, thanks.
    You, we all are about 10% hydrogen by mass…. But 65% oxygen.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    On topic, has anyone ever heard of Alexander Stafford before ?

    Yes, he was PPS to Boris Johnson.
    Just wiki’d him.
    Seems a right prat.
    Well he’s an Oxford man, what do you expect ?
    Indeed.
    .. Stafford described himself as belonging to the political tribe of David Cameron and was a supporter of Cameron's Big Society policy "as things like Free Schools give power to local bodies. People know best how to run their own lives." One of Stafford's contributions at Prime Minister's Questions in 2021 was described as that "of a proper old-school Law and Order Tory: tough on crime and anti-social behaviour."..

    And a fan of hydrogen.

    An oddity.
    I'll stick with the oxygen, thanks.
    You, we all are about 10% hydrogen by mass…. But 65% oxygen.
    When it comes to O2, Sky's the limit.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,038
    Also off topic, but important for anyone who wants to see women protectoed from predators: The December 18th Wall Street Journal included a four page special, "Jeffrey Epstein Never Stopped Abusing Women—and His VIP Circle Helped Make It Possible".
    https://www.wsj.com/us-news/jeffrey-epstein-sexual-abuse-women-vip-connections-f5451078

    He never stopped abusing women (and girls) -- even after he had been convicted.

    It's behind their pay wall, but I imagine you could find it in a good university library, or in other ways.

    (Incidentally, the article supplies some evidence for a theory I've had for some time: Almost all of his victims did not have fathers in their lives.)
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653

    Off topic, but important for anyone who bets on American politics:
    "A new study from Syracuse University’s Newhouse School of Public Communications found that just 3.4% of American journalists are Republicans.
    . . . .
    When the first iteration of the study came out over 50 years ago, 35.5% of respondents said they were Democrats, 25.7% said they were Republicans, and 32.5% said they were Independents. The percentage that call themselves Democrats or independents have bounced around over the years, with the proportion of Democrats reaching a high of 44.1% in 1992."
    source: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/study-finds-that-just-3-4-of-american-journalists-are-republicans/ar-AA1m6Tf6?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=41d2edafd0ec40a09c509a2a259194a1&ei=175

    Humans being what we are, you should not expect unbiased coverage of American politics from most American journalists.

    (As it happens, our local monopoly newspaper, the Seattle Times, provides many good examples of this problem. From time to time I see pieces in the newspaper that read like satires, they are so far into current leftist thinking.)

    Well, this is the long echo of the 40-year strategy to wage war on modernity and anything resembling intellectualism. If the woke Democrats are ever as successful, I'm sure a similar backlash would follow in the long term too, but when your party tries to make schools praise the benefits of slavery while banning discussions of homosexuality, you will pay a price among people who think differently.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,124

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    Two things.
    Yes kids on farms are often a bit weird.

    And
    We let down children all the time. When it suits us. Housing is out of reach, most will never own a home. Mental health services are low priority. Total lack of concern for the climate. Piling debt on debt. Massive rise in child poverty.

    But it’s a disaster if we panic in a pandemic and lockdown schools for a few months?

    They look a bit selective, these complaints.
    Lets see for me.

    1: Housing is for me the number one problem in this country that needs fixing.
    2: Ironic, the claim is that there's more priorities than just healthcare and you want to talk about healthcare.
    3: I care about the climate and want to address climate change with an investment in clean technologies.
    4: I oppose piling debt on debt, indeed its why Brown was such a failure as we've discussed before.
    5: Not true.

    So housing, climate, debt and education - 4 out of 6 are priorities for me. Not a bad score.
    The three biggest problems in the UK are housing, housing, and housing.
    Housing availability, housing cost, housing quality.

    There is a shortage of accommodation in places (not everywhere). We need to build houses that communities need as opposed to houses the builders want to build. We see estates being thrown up with 4 bed + "executive style houses" where the need is affordable starter houses.

    The economy is screwed at least in a big part by housing costs. Mortgages are shooting up, rents are sky high - and landlords can't make a living either. Is anyone making money? We're spending so much, but what are we getting?

    We *have* to talk quality. Apartment blocks thrown up with "rapid-burn" panelling. Houses by the big housebuilders with no cavity insulation and endless snags that need fixing. We're building terrible housing.

    So yes, housing, housing, housing. But not more of the same. We need a rethink.
    Agree totally. There needs to be thinking outside the box, as there was after WWII, and find ways to construct cheap but quality housing. Recent attempts at alternative contstruction methods have been shut down by banks which won’t mortgage them.
    Government does, of course, have the power to obtain very cheap building land.

    Which is one way of building cheaper homes.
    Question - what stops councils buying up land, designing a layout, putting in services, then selling the plots to recoup costs?

    Obviously reposte - Woking. But in the boom times of the housing market, that would have been money for old rope.


    We (a local council ) are looking into this and it seems to be proble

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    Two things.
    Yes kids on farms are often a bit weird.

    And
    We let down children all the time. When it suits us. Housing is out of reach, most will never own a home. Mental health services are low priority. Total lack of concern for the climate. Piling debt on debt. Massive rise in child poverty.

    But it’s a disaster if we panic in a pandemic and lockdown schools for a few months?

    They look a bit selective, these complaints.
    Lets see for me.

    1: Housing is for me the number one problem in this country that needs fixing.
    2: Ironic, the claim is that there's more priorities than just healthcare and you want to talk about healthcare.
    3: I care about the climate and want to address climate change with an investment in clean technologies.
    4: I oppose piling debt on debt, indeed its why Brown was such a failure as we've discussed before.
    5: Not true.

    So housing, climate, debt and education - 4 out of 6 are priorities for me. Not a bad score.
    The three biggest problems in the UK are housing, housing, and housing.
    Housing availability, housing cost, housing quality.

    There is a shortage of accommodation in places (not everywhere). We need to build houses that communities need as opposed to houses the builders want to build. We see estates being thrown up with 4 bed + "executive style houses" where the need is affordable starter houses.

    The economy is screwed at least in a big part by housing costs. Mortgages are shooting up, rents are sky high - and landlords can't make a living either. Is anyone making money? We're spending so much, but what are we getting?

    We *have* to talk quality. Apartment blocks thrown up with "rapid-burn" panelling. Houses by the big housebuilders with no cavity insulation and endless snags that need fixing. We're building terrible housing.

    So yes, housing, housing, housing. But not more of the same. We need a rethink.
    Agree totally. There needs to be thinking outside the box, as there was after WWII, and find ways to construct cheap but quality housing. Recent attempts at alternative contstruction methods have been shut down by banks which won’t mortgage them.
    Government does, of course, have the power to obtain very cheap building land.

    Which is one way of building cheaper homes.
    Question - what stops councils buying up land, designing a layout, putting in services, then selling the plots to recoup costs?

    Obviously reposte - Woking. But in the boom times of the housing market, that would have been money for old rope.


    As a new councillor. This has been a thing for me. I will go with resources: frameworks, funding, capability, ambition, infrastructure.

    We can lay out a framework of standards for local provision but if it isn't saleable with 17% profit it isn't considered viable. His Majesty's Planning Inspectorate will tell us to do it again but cheaper.

    Electricity is in short supply. There is sewage spilling into our rivers. We don't want to make it worse and we can't get Severn Trent to take any interest in improving the service they manage. They are not our friends.

    As for DIY.
    I am told we would need £11m per year on top of all the available government grants to produce 250 affordable homes a year, and then we wouldn't have anyone to sell them to. We need land but we are not allowed to compulsorily purchase and definitely not below a fair price. Our projects are not ones we want to contemplate without meeting quality standards that the private sector isn't bothering with. Which makes us uncompetitive.

    its annoying.
    I'm aware that a change of government is immanent, and I want to be ready to take full advantage of opportunities but I cannot deal with the required infrastructure shortfall

    Labour have for some time floated the idea of giving LAs broader powers to compulsorily acquire land without paying ‘planning gain’, so ‘fair price’ might mean something very different indeed in a year’s time.
    How about just abolishing 'planning gain' in the first place, in which case everyone could build at an affordable price and not just politicians who answer to NIMBY electorates?
    How do you ‘just abolish planning gain’ ?
    What's the trigger that causes planning gain? Abolish that.

    Planning gain comes because there's a differential between the value of land with consent and land without it.

    Make planning automatic, go to a coded system, so that nobody requires to get consent anymore and the planning gain associated with getting consent vanishes.

    Nations that have done this have seen stable house prices rather than surging ones, because there's no artificial constraints on construction and no planning windfalls that cause gains - also reform taxation so that sitting on land is less than worthless because its taxed automatically all along whether its built on or not just the same.
    We’re talking about what might be be Labour policy, though.
    There’s pretty well no chance of your idea, whatever its merits, being adopted by either party. Certainly not the Tories.
    Why can't Labour do that?

    Other governments in other countries have - and Labour claim to acknowledge that housing costs are a great barrier to inequality and claim to be in favour of improving opportunities for all, so why not remove that barrier?

    There's no divine reason for planning consent, prior to its introduction England was building sufficient houses and the cost of land was only about 2% of the cost of housing - and the cost of housing was not the largest part of people's budgets.

    Since the introduction of planning regimes there have never been sufficient new houses built, and our housing crisis has got worse and worse.

    What's stopping Labour from embracing serious root and branch reform and fixing the problem at source?

    Sure it will piss off landlords who want to extract rent from tenants and see their wealth go up, but that's neither relevant nor Labour's target market for votes.

    Abolish planning gain and the housing crisis would be rapidly resolved. With house costs down, the cost of living crisis would be resolved, the inequalities between the well off and poor would rapidly shrink, and the cost to the Exchequer of housing support etc would plummet.

    What's Labour's problem with any of that?
    They will be gaining MPs in areas where GreenNimbyHouseProtection is a major political force.

    Announcing such policies would guarantee AnybodyButLabour as the next MP
    Probably not.

    In countries where this has been done, governments have been re-elected.

    The problem with NIMBYism is its like many things, the exaggerated fear of a non-existent problem. By making permission political, it means people are constantly pitchforks at the ready to fight against developments, even if they're the right thing to do.

    And if they're not the right thing to do, they won't be happening, so there's no problems anyway.

    Take away the politics and NIMBYism ceases to be as potent a force. Developments are either happening, or not, but there's no great political debate about it as its no longer politicised. It loses its currency. And as its no longer politicised, competition can spring up and we cease to see monolithic Barratt-style developments and instead more organic consumer-led developments of what people want and need, where they want it and need it.

    But if Labour's too afraid of doing the right thing, because they're worried about the election after next, then they're no better and no more fit for office than the Tories.

    algarkirk said:

    viewcode said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    On topic, has anyone ever heard of Alexander Stafford before ?

    Yes, he was PPS to Boris Johnson.
    Just wiki’d him.
    Seems a right prat.
    Well he’s an Oxford man, what do you expect ?
    Indeed.
    .. Stafford described himself as belonging to the political tribe of David Cameron and was a supporter of Cameron's Big Society policy "as things like Free Schools give power to local bodies. People know best how to run their own lives." One of Stafford's contributions at Prime Minister's Questions in 2021 was described as that "of a proper old-school Law and Order Tory: tough on crime and anti-social behaviour."..

    And a fan of hydrogen.

    An oddity.
    He likes hot air?
    No. Somebody told him that hydrogen was reaaaaly green and without a moment's rational thought decided to support it despite being the stupidest stupidest stupidy-stupidest idea on God's green Earth.
    See the Economist Christmas double issue for a different take (great uncertainty but not impossible, and there's trillions of tons of the stuff lying underground that no-one noticed and maybe Australia both has lots and isn't run by dictators).
    The anti-hydrogen people are as stupid as the hydrogen-in-everything people. Hydrogen has a place; in fact, it might have several niches. Work on it should therefore continue. But it won't be in (say) cars at any large scale.

    That's a significant issue for 'green' issues: many people are so keen on their own 'solution' that they denigrate other people's. In reality we are likely to have a very mixed green economy.
    The problem with hydrogen is that it was seen as the correct “political” solution, for a number of reasons.

    The briefing papers on this from government I saw, when working for an oil company that was big on going Green, were fascinating. Hydrogen was the right solution because of tax, legacy industry (oil companies would become hydrogen producers) etc etc

    The problem was that hydrogen is unsuitable for a number of things for technical reasons. 5 minutes with the handling and hazards rules for hydrogen will tell you a lot.
  • Andy_JS said:

    If there is going to be a May election, it would have to be called in about 12 weeks from now.

    So two or three weeks after the budget which is about 10 weeks from now. It is plausible, and would give time to see at least the immediate budget reception, before it unravels as budgets sometimes do. I'd not be surprised if Rishi plays it long though.
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    ajb said:

    Is the Blackpool tower on fire?

    Yes it is

    https://twitter.com/sked03/status/1740381627094827220
    People are saying that’s orange tarpaulin flapping in the wind…looks like it & doesn’t seem to be much smoke… But there are fire engines so must be I suppose

    Loads of reporters are asking to use that footage. My money is on it being a wind up
    Fire/flames are one of the tougher tasks any movie encoder has to do: so much so, such videos were a significant component of the test suites we had back when I was doing STBs. What we see there might be a tarpaulin, or it might just be artificats of the MPEG encoding of a heavily-zoomed image. Need better images to tell.
    Loads of fire engines there now, and the Fire brigade account is talking about it, so must surely be a legitimate fire.
    Blackpool Tower fire: Police reveal 'flames' are in fact orange netting blowing in wind
    https://news.sky.com/story/blackpool-tower-on-fire-13038705
This discussion has been closed.