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Reviewing 2023 – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,214
edited January 1 in General
Reviewing 2023 – politicalbetting.com

Johnson subsequently proved the point by contracting Covid naturally with such mild symptoms that he was admitted to intensive care.

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Comments

  • Does Boris count for 2023, except via the inquiry? Has anything much happened in 2023 or was it an oasis compared with the pandemic and turnover of monarchs and prime ministers?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,147
    edited December 2023
    Second, like the Tories…if they are lucky

    On topic, the clown clearly thought that covid would be contagious but benign. A mistake so easy, it was even made on here…
  • Does Boris count for 2023, except via the inquiry? Has anything much happened in 2023 or was it an oasis compared with the pandemic and turnover of monarchs and prime ministers?

    And Brexit and Ukraine. In 2023 we worried about Rishi using helicopters. Nicola Sturgeon stepped down in extraordinary circumstances in Scotland, I suppose. In Wales the First Minister who said he'd retire after five years retired after five years. Stormont's still not a thing.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730
    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Although there might have been another fatal epidemic of people who died laughing at his stupidity.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599
    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730
    This has happened in all areas I’ve lived in, so I assumed it was universal. Is it not, or are the government yet again announcing something that’s already been happening for years?

    Recycling electrical goods could be done at kerbside and drop-off points in shops
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67830798
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730

    Does Boris count for 2023, except via the inquiry? Has anything much happened in 2023 or was it an oasis compared with the pandemic and turnover of monarchs and prime ministers?

    And Brexit and Ukraine. In 2023 we worried about Rishi using helicopters. Nicola Sturgeon stepped down in extraordinary circumstances in Scotland, I suppose. In Wales the First Minister who said he'd retire after five years retired after five years. Stormont's still not a thing.
    Surely *the* moment of 2023 was the arrest of Nicola Sturgeon?

    I mean, that’s pretty much unparalleled as an event. Who was the last politician in the UK at cabinet level or equivalent to be arrested immediately after leaving office? (Salmond at least there was a bit of a gap.)
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    edited December 2023
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730
    In Pravda (Truth) there is no news (Izvestya)
    In Izvestya (News) there is no truth (Pravda)

    With apologies to the wags of the Soviet Union.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,710
    Good morning everybody!
    And weatherwise, it does look a little bit better here than it did yesterday!

    I suggest that when we look back on 2023, we’lll see that the brutality in southern Palestine (trying to find a neutral description), and it’s pushing the war in Ukraine a little bit down the front pages has been the most significant event.
    The farrago of nonsense, which has been the Covid enquiry, will only be seen as significant in that underlines, the incompetence at the heart of government, also exemplified by the post office enquiry.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,961
    edited December 2023
    ydoethur said:

    Does Boris count for 2023, except via the inquiry? Has anything much happened in 2023 or was it an oasis compared with the pandemic and turnover of monarchs and prime ministers?

    And Brexit and Ukraine. In 2023 we worried about Rishi using helicopters. Nicola Sturgeon stepped down in extraordinary circumstances in Scotland, I suppose. In Wales the First Minister who said he'd retire after five years retired after five years. Stormont's still not a thing.
    Surely *the* moment of 2023 was the arrest of Nicola Sturgeon?

    I mean, that’s pretty much unparalleled as an event. Who was the last politician in the UK at cabinet level or equivalent to be arrested immediately after leaving office? (Salmond at least there was a bit of a gap.)
    That's my thread for the next few days.

    Does Chris Huhne count? He was questioned under caution whilst being in the cabinet.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730

    Good morning everybody!
    And weatherwise, it does look a little bit better here than it did yesterday!

    I suggest that when we look back on 2023, we’lll see that the brutality in southern Palestine (trying to find a neutral description), and it’s pushing the war in Ukraine a little bit down the front pages has been the most significant event.
    The farrago of nonsense, which has been the Covid enquiry, will only be seen as significant in that underlines, the incompetence at the heart of government, also exemplified by the post office enquiry.

    And the disasters at OFSTED, which appear to have included perjury at an inquest. Don’t forget that because I think they’re about to become very significant.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730

    ydoethur said:

    Does Boris count for 2023, except via the inquiry? Has anything much happened in 2023 or was it an oasis compared with the pandemic and turnover of monarchs and prime ministers?

    And Brexit and Ukraine. In 2023 we worried about Rishi using helicopters. Nicola Sturgeon stepped down in extraordinary circumstances in Scotland, I suppose. In Wales the First Minister who said he'd retire after five years retired after five years. Stormont's still not a thing.
    Surely *the* moment of 2023 was the arrest of Nicola Sturgeon?

    I mean, that’s pretty much unparalleled as an event. Who was the last politician in the UK at cabinet level or equivalent to be arrested immediately after leaving office? (Salmond at least there was a bit of a gap.)
    That's my thread for the next few days.

    Does Chris Huhne count? He was questioned under caution whilst being in the cabinet.
    Yes, he does, I’d just forgotten the slimy speedster.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599
    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469
    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Or it may be seen that they were a necessary evil, given what we knew at the time. Especially the first lockdown.
  • ydoethur said:

    Does Boris count for 2023, except via the inquiry? Has anything much happened in 2023 or was it an oasis compared with the pandemic and turnover of monarchs and prime ministers?

    And Brexit and Ukraine. In 2023 we worried about Rishi using helicopters. Nicola Sturgeon stepped down in extraordinary circumstances in Scotland, I suppose. In Wales the First Minister who said he'd retire after five years retired after five years. Stormont's still not a thing.
    Surely *the* moment of 2023 was the arrest of Nicola Sturgeon?

    I mean, that’s pretty much unparalleled as an event. Who was the last politician in the UK at cabinet level or equivalent to be arrested immediately after leaving office? (Salmond at least there was a bit of a gap.)
    I did say the circumstances were extraordinary but they were also bizarre. Arrests, treating her home as a murder scene, campervans. The arrest does not seem to have gone anywhere, or at least not yet.

    But yes, it might have been the highlight of 2023. As already shown in this thread, I can't think of much else that has happened in 2023 but even this is pretty small beer.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Or it may be seen that they were a necessary evil, given what we knew at the time. Especially the first lockdown.
    The first is the least controversial. Tho even there I wonder

    The later lockdowns now seem like a kind of universal madness
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,961
    edited December 2023
    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Didn't that roaster Sean Thomas demand lockdowns and flee to a cottage somewhere remote.

    Blame bellends like that for pressuring the government to lockdown.

    How is your stalker going to feel when he has to write pro Muslim articles when the Abu Dhabi takes control of The Spectator?
  • ydoethur said:

    Does Boris count for 2023, except via the inquiry? Has anything much happened in 2023 or was it an oasis compared with the pandemic and turnover of monarchs and prime ministers?

    And Brexit and Ukraine. In 2023 we worried about Rishi using helicopters. Nicola Sturgeon stepped down in extraordinary circumstances in Scotland, I suppose. In Wales the First Minister who said he'd retire after five years retired after five years. Stormont's still not a thing.
    Surely *the* moment of 2023 was the arrest of Nicola Sturgeon?

    I mean, that’s pretty much unparalleled as an event. Who was the last politician in the UK at cabinet level or equivalent to be arrested immediately after leaving office? (Salmond at least there was a bit of a gap.)
    Certainly the event with the most (indirect) national impact.

    The Lab/Con front has barely moved in 2023. People have made up their minds, and it's hard to imagine what's going to really shift them either way in 2024.

    But the Tartan Wall has developed a crack, and the likely Labour gains from the SNP make a Labour majority a much simpler task.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
  • kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I was the opposite.

    I lost a lot of weight during the lockdowns.

    It was all the unhealthy eating/work lunches that stopped for a year or so coupled with getting a Peloton that did the trick.

    But it was a struggle not seeing friends/colleagues/other halves for a year that took a toll.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,186
    Today I shall be travelling 8 or 9 hours to get to/from an event I have no wish to attend.

    The good news for the rest of you is that I won't be posting!

    Political highlight at a local level was making it three out of three Labour councillors in our ward. Previously solid Tory.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Or it may be seen that they were a necessary evil, given what we knew at the time. Especially the first lockdown.
    The first is the least controversial. Tho even there I wonder

    The later lockdowns now seem like a kind of universal madness
    The later lockdowns were sane.

    They bought time to get the country vaccinated.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Or it may be seen that they were a necessary evil, given what we knew at the time. Especially the first lockdown.
    The first is the least controversial. Tho even there I wonder

    The later lockdowns now seem like a kind of universal madness
    The problem is we cannot take back time and see what the alternative was. I am pretty certain that the first lockdown was correct, given what we knew at the time (and even with hindsight). And you should note that your paragraph above condemns *all* lockdowns, including the first.

    For the second; was it correct? It's easy to look back now and say it wasn't, because you don't have to live with the consequences of your words. Did it save lives? Almost certainly yes. Were there consequences? Yes. So how do you weigh up an unquantifiable number of lives saved versus the unquantifiable consequences, especially compared to an alternative policy that was not tried?

    IMV RCS has made a good point in the past: even if we had not locked down officially, we would have locked down unofficially. And that may have caused the worst of all worlds, with *more* disruption and deaths.

    It's an experiment we cannot go back and repeat, thankfully.

    I'll just repeat what I've said all along: I'm blooming glad I wasn't having to make the decisions.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Or it may be seen that they were a necessary evil, given what we knew at the time. Especially the first lockdown.
    The first is the least controversial. Tho even there I wonder

    The later lockdowns now seem like a kind of universal madness
    There is a kind of bullshit dichotomy though: an idea that you either support no restrictions, or a lockdown. When the reality is that there were a lot of measures that had relatively limited impacts on people's day-to-day lives, but which reduced R significantly.
    Yes I agree. What was mad was the Total Closure of society for many months. The desolate silence. Man is a social animal

    We could have been much more nuanced. Pumping money into the NHS to fend off collapse while still keeping schools and biz open - it would have been way cheaper than the trillions in debt we created
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    On which bombshell, I'm off to bed.

    Play nicely children.

    Tomorrow I am going to write a header on empathy.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    I’m hearing that this new cohort is especially fucked from personal anecdotes - teacher/professor friends. But also seeing it online

    It makes sense. Even a war arguably isn’t as traumatic as what we did to our own societies 2020-2022

    I sincerely pray that you are right in your sunny Californian optimism
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    I’m hearing that this new cohort is especially fucked from personal anecdotes - teacher/professor friends. But also seeing it online

    It makes sense. Even a war arguably isn’t as traumatic as what we did to our own societies 2020-2022

    I sincerely pray that you are right in your sunny Californian optimism
    I have excellent news. I am right and your concerns are (for a change) massively overdone.
  • Russia’s electronic warfare tactics are helping it turn the tide against Ukraine
    A shield of electromagnetic pulses along the front lines provides troops with crucial protection to thwart Kyiv’s missile and drone attacks

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/27/russia-electronic-warfare-turn-tide-war-ukraine/ (£££)

    Drones are no longer a cheap panacea for the next defence review.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    A relative grew up in a relatively isolated location, with his nearest schoolfriends quite a way away along country lanes. He's a very sociable person, and when he was very young, he felt terribly isolated. Then when he as seven or eight, his parents started allowing him onto the Internet, where he could chat to other kids. It changed his life, and he is a quite successful young man.

    Nowadays social media is a *very* different beast, and can be much nastier. I wonder if the lack of in-face socialisation caused kids to rely more on social media, with all that entails?
  • Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    I’m hearing that this new cohort is especially fucked from personal anecdotes - teacher/professor friends. But also seeing it online

    It makes sense. Even a war arguably isn’t as traumatic as what we did to our own societies 2020-2022

    I sincerely pray that you are right in your sunny Californian optimism
    You might be looking in the wrong direction, and it is smartphones and social media that are killing socialisation, rather than lockdowns.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    I’m hearing that this new cohort is especially fucked from personal anecdotes - teacher/professor friends. But also seeing it online

    It makes sense. Even a war arguably isn’t as traumatic as what we did to our own societies 2020-2022

    I sincerely pray that you are right in your sunny Californian optimism
    I have excellent news. I am right and your concerns are (for a change) massively overdone.
    Well, yeah, but I can turn my normal hysterical reaction into a Knapper’s Gazette column which will be intensely clickbaity due to my shouty madness and be the most read article for the week and make me the editorial favourite invited to Posh Sex Toy Parties so it’s win-win
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    I’m hearing that this new cohort is especially fucked from personal anecdotes - teacher/professor friends. But also seeing it online

    It makes sense. Even a war arguably isn’t as traumatic as what we did to our own societies 2020-2022

    I sincerely pray that you are right in your sunny Californian optimism
    You might be looking in the wrong direction, and it is smartphones and social media that are killing socialisation, rather than lockdowns.
    Or, the combination has been a catastrophe
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    A relative grew up in a relatively isolated location, with his nearest schoolfriends quite a way away along country lanes. He's a very sociable person, and when he was very young, he felt terribly isolated. Then when he as seven or eight, his parents started allowing him onto the Internet, where he could chat to other kids. It changed his life, and he is a quite successful young man.

    Nowadays social media is a *very* different beast, and can be much nastier. I wonder if the lack of in-face socialisation caused kids to rely more on social media, with all that entails?
    Perceptive. I suspect you are on to something
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730

    ydoethur said:

    Does Boris count for 2023, except via the inquiry? Has anything much happened in 2023 or was it an oasis compared with the pandemic and turnover of monarchs and prime ministers?

    And Brexit and Ukraine. In 2023 we worried about Rishi using helicopters. Nicola Sturgeon stepped down in extraordinary circumstances in Scotland, I suppose. In Wales the First Minister who said he'd retire after five years retired after five years. Stormont's still not a thing.
    Surely *the* moment of 2023 was the arrest of Nicola Sturgeon?

    I mean, that’s pretty much unparalleled as an event. Who was the last politician in the UK at cabinet level or equivalent to be arrested immediately after leaving office? (Salmond at least there was a bit of a gap.)
    Certainly the event with the most (indirect) national impact.

    The Lab/Con front has barely moved in 2023. People have made up their minds, and it's hard to imagine what's going to really shift them either way in 2024.

    But the Tartan Wall has developed a crack, and the likely Labour gains from the SNP make a Labour majority a much simpler task.
    The Herald is positively swimming in schadenfreude:

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24010545.2023-review-snps-year-hell/
  • Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Or it may be seen that they were a necessary evil, given what we knew at the time. Especially the first lockdown.
    Trouble is, the way to avoid lockdowns is to plan the quiet bits so that lockdowns never become necessary.

    That long dismal early 2021 lockdown didn't happen in France or Germany, because their governments kept a better lid on things;


    https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?time=2020-01-03..2021-05-21&facet=none&uniformYAxis=0&country=DEU~GBR~FRA&hideControls=true&Metric=Stringency+index&Interval=7-day+rolling+average&Relative+to+Population=true&Color+by+test+positivity=false

    Turns out that desiring a lack of lockdowns isn't enough- you have to do things to enable that. Put it in a different context (the way to ensure peace is to make it clear that you are prepared to win a war), and it's the sort of thing right wingers used to understand. I blame the magazines of right wing ideas for making them all stupid.

    Johnson and co weren't up to that. He so wanted to be Churchill, but against the key enemy of his Premiership he was about as effective as Chamberlain.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Or it may be seen that they were a necessary evil, given what we knew at the time. Especially the first lockdown.
    Trouble is, the way to avoid lockdowns is to plan the quiet bits so that lockdowns never become necessary.

    That long dismal early 2021 lockdown didn't happen in France or Germany, because their governments kept a better lid on things;


    https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?time=2020-01-03..2021-05-21&facet=none&uniformYAxis=0&country=DEU~GBR~FRA&hideControls=true&Metric=Stringency+index&Interval=7-day+rolling+average&Relative+to+Population=true&Color+by+test+positivity=false

    Turns out that desiring a lack of lockdowns isn't enough- you have to do things to enable that. Put it in a different context (the way to ensure peace is to make it clear that you are prepared to win a war), and it's the sort of thing right wingers used to understand. I blame the magazines of right wing ideas for making them all stupid.

    Johnson and co weren't up to that. He so wanted to be Churchill, but against the key enemy of his Premiership he was about as effective as Chamberlain.
    He wanted to be Churchill. But he ended up John Trevor.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,147

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Or it may be seen that they were a necessary evil, given what we knew at the time. Especially the first lockdown.
    Trouble is, the way to avoid lockdowns is to plan the quiet bits so that lockdowns never become necessary.

    That long dismal early 2021 lockdown didn't happen in France or Germany, because their governments kept a better lid on things;


    https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?time=2020-01-03..2021-05-21&facet=none&uniformYAxis=0&country=DEU~GBR~FRA&hideControls=true&Metric=Stringency+index&Interval=7-day+rolling+average&Relative+to+Population=true&Color+by+test+positivity=false

    Turns out that desiring a lack of lockdowns isn't enough- you have to do things to enable that. Put it in a different context (the way to ensure peace is to make it clear that you are prepared to win a war), and it's the sort of thing right wingers used to understand. I blame the magazines of right wing ideas for making them all stupid.

    Johnson and co weren't up to that. He so wanted to be Churchill, but against the key enemy of his Premiership he was about as effective as Chamberlain.
    …with added indecision and hypocrisy.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,002
    The biggest political story of 2023 is probably Nicola Strugeon, but close behind is the unravelling of the Post Office scandal.

    I have my parents visiting at the moment, and they took turns reading chapters of Nick Wallis’ book for several hours a day.
  • ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Or it may be seen that they were a necessary evil, given what we knew at the time. Especially the first lockdown.
    Trouble is, the way to avoid lockdowns is to plan the quiet bits so that lockdowns never become necessary.

    That long dismal early 2021 lockdown didn't happen in France or Germany, because their governments kept a better lid on things;


    https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?time=2020-01-03..2021-05-21&facet=none&uniformYAxis=0&country=DEU~GBR~FRA&hideControls=true&Metric=Stringency+index&Interval=7-day+rolling+average&Relative+to+Population=true&Color+by+test+positivity=false

    Turns out that desiring a lack of lockdowns isn't enough- you have to do things to enable that. Put it in a different context (the way to ensure peace is to make it clear that you are prepared to win a war), and it's the sort of thing right wingers used to understand. I blame the magazines of right wing ideas for making them all stupid.

    Johnson and co weren't up to that. He so wanted to be Churchill, but against the key enemy of his Premiership he was about as effective as Chamberlain.
    He wanted to be Churchill. But he ended up John Trevor.
    Boris Johnson did turn out be Churchill, Randolph Churchill.
  • ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Or it may be seen that they were a necessary evil, given what we knew at the time. Especially the first lockdown.
    Trouble is, the way to avoid lockdowns is to plan the quiet bits so that lockdowns never become necessary.

    That long dismal early 2021 lockdown didn't happen in France or Germany, because their governments kept a better lid on things;


    https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?time=2020-01-03..2021-05-21&facet=none&uniformYAxis=0&country=DEU~GBR~FRA&hideControls=true&Metric=Stringency+index&Interval=7-day+rolling+average&Relative+to+Population=true&Color+by+test+positivity=false

    Turns out that desiring a lack of lockdowns isn't enough- you have to do things to enable that. Put it in a different context (the way to ensure peace is to make it clear that you are prepared to win a war), and it's the sort of thing right wingers used to understand. I blame the magazines of right wing ideas for making them all stupid.

    Johnson and co weren't up to that. He so wanted to be Churchill, but against the key enemy of his Premiership he was about as effective as Chamberlain.
    He wanted to be Churchill. But he ended up John Trevor.
    (Googles John Trevor. After all, I stopped studying history after getting a GCSE in the late 1980s.)

    Yeah, that works. Makes a change from comparing Johnson to John Thomas.
  • ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Or it may be seen that they were a necessary evil, given what we knew at the time. Especially the first lockdown.
    Trouble is, the way to avoid lockdowns is to plan the quiet bits so that lockdowns never become necessary.

    That long dismal early 2021 lockdown didn't happen in France or Germany, because their governments kept a better lid on things;


    https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?time=2020-01-03..2021-05-21&facet=none&uniformYAxis=0&country=DEU~GBR~FRA&hideControls=true&Metric=Stringency+index&Interval=7-day+rolling+average&Relative+to+Population=true&Color+by+test+positivity=false

    Turns out that desiring a lack of lockdowns isn't enough- you have to do things to enable that. Put it in a different context (the way to ensure peace is to make it clear that you are prepared to win a war), and it's the sort of thing right wingers used to understand. I blame the magazines of right wing ideas for making them all stupid.

    Johnson and co weren't up to that. He so wanted to be Churchill, but against the key enemy of his Premiership he was about as effective as Chamberlain.
    He wanted to be Churchill. But he ended up John Trevor.
    (Googles John Trevor. After all, I stopped studying history after getting a GCSE in the late 1980s.)

    Yeah, that works. Makes a change from comparing Johnson to John Thomas.
    John Trevor was a Welshman who was the antithesis of a dedicated public servant like Mark Drakeford.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,391
    edited December 2023
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    I’m hearing that this new cohort is especially fucked from personal anecdotes - teacher/professor friends. But also seeing it online

    It makes sense. Even a war arguably isn’t as traumatic as what we did to our own societies 2020-2022

    I sincerely pray that you are right in your sunny Californian optimism
    I have excellent news. I am right and your concerns are (for a change) massively overdone.
    Well, yeah, but I can turn my normal hysterical reaction into a Knapper’s Gazette column which will be intensely clickbaity due to my shouty madness and be the most read article for the week and make me the editorial favourite invited to Posh Sex Toy Parties so it’s win-win
    The tragedy is that you don't realise that an invitation to Posh Sex Toy Parties after writing a twatty article for twats isn't your reward, it's your punishment
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Or it may be seen that they were a necessary evil, given what we knew at the time. Especially the first lockdown.
    The first is the least controversial. Tho even there I wonder

    The later lockdowns now seem like a kind of universal madness
    The problem is we cannot take back time and see what the alternative was. I am pretty certain that the first lockdown was correct, given what we knew at the time (and even with hindsight). And you should note that your paragraph above condemns *all* lockdowns, including the first.

    For the second; was it correct? It's easy to look back now and say it wasn't, because you don't have to live with the consequences of your words. Did it save lives? Almost certainly yes. Were there consequences? Yes. So how do you weigh up an unquantifiable number of lives saved versus the unquantifiable consequences, especially compared to an alternative policy that was not tried?

    IMV RCS has made a good point in the past: even if we had not locked down officially, we would have locked down unofficially. And that may have caused the worst of all worlds, with *more* disruption and deaths.

    It's an experiment we cannot go back and repeat, thankfully.

    I'll just repeat what I've said all along: I'm blooming glad I wasn't having to make the decisions.
    The wider problem is, with no sign of learning meaningful lessons from what happened, odds are if another infectious pandemic happens we'll repeat exactly the same experiment.

    The Covid Inquiry is doing a great deal of useful work in exposing the rottenness and inadequacy of our system of government. That needs to happen. And a great many people need to be sacked, including an enormous chunk of utterly unfit for purpose Civil Service which still seems to run on who you know rather than the innate abilities of the candidates in question. It's going a long way to explaining the enormous number of policy disasters in the last 35 years, which includes not only Covid but academy schools, OFSTED, new GCSEs, the shambolic transport network, failures in the NHS, the hollowing out of our armed forces, constant mis-spending which has left us with unsustainable debt, the poor quality of our tax system, universal credit, and so on and so forth.

    But none of that is really relevant to understanding the strengths and weaknesses of our response to an infectious pandemic - which is what it's meant to be about.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730
    edited December 2023

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Or it may be seen that they were a necessary evil, given what we knew at the time. Especially the first lockdown.
    Trouble is, the way to avoid lockdowns is to plan the quiet bits so that lockdowns never become necessary.

    That long dismal early 2021 lockdown didn't happen in France or Germany, because their governments kept a better lid on things;


    https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?time=2020-01-03..2021-05-21&facet=none&uniformYAxis=0&country=DEU~GBR~FRA&hideControls=true&Metric=Stringency+index&Interval=7-day+rolling+average&Relative+to+Population=true&Color+by+test+positivity=false

    Turns out that desiring a lack of lockdowns isn't enough- you have to do things to enable that. Put it in a different context (the way to ensure peace is to make it clear that you are prepared to win a war), and it's the sort of thing right wingers used to understand. I blame the magazines of right wing ideas for making them all stupid.

    Johnson and co weren't up to that. He so wanted to be Churchill, but against the key enemy of his Premiership he was about as effective as Chamberlain.
    He wanted to be Churchill. But he ended up John Trevor.
    Boris Johnson did turn out be Churchill, Randolph Churchill.
    Randolph Churchill was destroyed by his sex life (well, the syphilis he got from it) but I don't recall anyone accusing him of lying to Parliament.

    Edit - unless you mean Winston Churchill's son Randolph?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599
    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    I’m hearing that this new cohort is especially fucked from personal anecdotes - teacher/professor friends. But also seeing it online

    It makes sense. Even a war arguably isn’t as traumatic as what we did to our own societies 2020-2022

    I sincerely pray that you are right in your sunny Californian optimism
    I have excellent news. I am right and your concerns are (for a change) massively overdone.
    Well, yeah, but I can turn my normal hysterical reaction into a Knapper’s Gazette column which will be intensely clickbaity due to my shouty madness and be the most read article for the week and make me the editorial favourite invited to Posh Sex Toy Parties so it’s win-win
    The tragedy is that you don't realise that an invitation to Posh Sex Toy Parties after writing a twatty article for twats isn't your reward, it's your punishment
    You’ve clearly never been to a Posh Sex Toy Party

    I strongly recommend
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Or it may be seen that they were a necessary evil, given what we knew at the time. Especially the first lockdown.
    Trouble is, the way to avoid lockdowns is to plan the quiet bits so that lockdowns never become necessary.

    That long dismal early 2021 lockdown didn't happen in France or Germany, because their governments kept a better lid on things;


    https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?time=2020-01-03..2021-05-21&facet=none&uniformYAxis=0&country=DEU~GBR~FRA&hideControls=true&Metric=Stringency+index&Interval=7-day+rolling+average&Relative+to+Population=true&Color+by+test+positivity=false

    Turns out that desiring a lack of lockdowns isn't enough- you have to do things to enable that. Put it in a different context (the way to ensure peace is to make it clear that you are prepared to win a war), and it's the sort of thing right wingers used to understand. I blame the magazines of right wing ideas for making them all stupid.

    Johnson and co weren't up to that. He so wanted to be Churchill, but against the key enemy of his Premiership he was about as effective as Chamberlain.
    He wanted to be Churchill. But he ended up John Trevor.
    (Googles John Trevor. After all, I stopped studying history after getting a GCSE in the late 1980s.)

    Yeah, that works. Makes a change from comparing Johnson to John Thomas.
    John Trevor was and remains the only Speaker ever to be fired by a vote of the House of Commons, for taking multiple bribes.

    He amusingly tried to forestall this by sending in a sick note describing his symptoms in graphic detail, in the hope it would prevent the Commons from actually sitting.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,773
    Re F-16 bollocks

    1. Nobody knows if they have any or not. It's just scrandies and psy-ops on Twitter. The only available facts are that the US won't train crew, the Romanian multi-national training centre (Plan A) is not open for business yet so the Danes reactivated their F-16 training cell at Skydstrup (Plan B). That's were the Ukrainian trainees are now.
    2. The F-16AM (ie small mouth block 15/20 with an MLU) are 90s tech.
    3. That Twitter clip of a Ukrainian F-16 in a shitty hangar was a 1/72 model made by a partially sighted child. It didn't even have the APX-133 IFF antennae that distinguishes the MLU Euro Vipers (except the Italian ones).
    4. Like all air forces the Russians have a combination of junk and effective equipment but the Su-30/Adder combo is no joke.
    6. The principle value of the F-16 to Ukraine is the totemic demonstration of support showing that the Alliance of Awesome hasn't quite given up on them yet.

    It'll all be over by next Christmas.
  • Utterly depressing to see the year ending with America reaching the end of its support for Ukraine, as the Republicans inspired by Trump are blocking any further support to Ukraine currently - and Trump is unequivocal he'd block it permanently.

    It is a disgrace. For the first time in a while, I'm now not confident anymore that Ukraine will be able to win the war. If the West stood behind Ukraine unequivocally, then they absolutely could, the combined West has a far, far superior logistical system than isolated Russia does.

    But if the West turns its back on Ukraine? That's a different story.

    Its a disgrace.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730
    Dura_Ace said:

    Re F-16 bollocks

    1. Nobody knows if they have any or not. It's just scrandies and psy-ops on Twitter. The only available facts are that the US won't train crew, the Romanian multi-national training centre (Plan A) is not open for business yet so the Danes reactivated their F-16 training cell at Skydstrup (Plan B). That's were the Ukrainian trainees are now.
    2. The F-16AM (ie small mouth block 15/20 with an MLU) are 90s tech.
    3. That Twitter clip of a Ukrainian F-16 in a shitty hangar was a 1/72 model made by a partially sighted child. It didn't even have the APX-133 IFF antennae that distinguishes the MLU Euro Vipers (except the Italian ones).
    4. Like all air forces the Russians have a combination of junk and effective equipment but the Su-30/Adder combo is no joke.
    6. The principle value of the F-16 to Ukraine is the totemic demonstration of support showing that the Alliance of Awesome hasn't quite given up on them yet.

    It'll all be over by next Christmas.

    I'm surprised you think the Russians will give up that quickly. :tongue:
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,147
    Breaking: Festive fly-tipping sees toilet dumped in beauty spot….
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730
    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Festive fly-tipping sees toilet dumped in beauty spot….

    Why would anyone dump London in a beauty spot?

    *Grabs tinfoil hat and ducks*
  • I'm right and so's my wife
  • Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    I’m hearing that this new cohort is especially fucked from personal anecdotes - teacher/professor friends. But also seeing it online

    It makes sense. Even a war arguably isn’t as traumatic as what we did to our own societies 2020-2022

    I sincerely pray that you are right in your sunny Californian optimism
    Absolutely, there has been damage inflicted on young people that will affect them the rest of their lives.

    Which should be pretty bloody obvious. If I don't take my kids to school for a week as I want to take them on holiday then I'm breaking the law and can be fined, as its so crucial that children don't miss even a week of schooling - but we shut schools for months and people have a ladida its all fine attitude to it.

    No its not all fine. What we did to children was terrible, unforgiveable, and all to save some people from a natural end to their life from a natural virus. It will affect children for decades to come.

    There are children approaching GCSEs etc now who missed absolutely crucial formative time at school and never caught up.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,241
    Given the incompetence and lack of seriousness of the Johnson government, as exposed by the Covid enquiry, the British Covid experience could have been a lot worse than it actually was.

    Maybe we can thank those maligned civil servants for managing it somehow.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,039

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    I’m hearing that this new cohort is especially fucked from personal anecdotes - teacher/professor friends. But also seeing it online

    It makes sense. Even a war arguably isn’t as traumatic as what we did to our own societies 2020-2022

    I sincerely pray that you are right in your sunny Californian optimism
    Absolutely, there has been damage inflicted on young people that will affect them the rest of their lives.

    Which should be pretty bloody obvious. If I don't take my kids to school for a week as I want to take them on holiday then I'm breaking the law and can be fined, as its so crucial that children don't miss even a week of schooling - but we shut schools for months and people have a ladida its all fine attitude to it.

    No its not all fine. What we did to children was terrible, unforgiveable, and all to save some people from a natural end to their life from a natural virus. It will affect children for decades to come.

    There are children approaching GCSEs etc now who missed absolutely crucial formative time at school and never caught up.
    ‘We’ !
  • Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    I’m hearing that this new cohort is especially fucked from personal anecdotes - teacher/professor friends. But also seeing it online

    It makes sense. Even a war arguably isn’t as traumatic as what we did to our own societies 2020-2022

    I sincerely pray that you are right in your sunny Californian optimism
    Absolutely, there has been damage inflicted on young people that will affect them the rest of their lives.

    Which should be pretty bloody obvious. If I don't take my kids to school for a week as I want to take them on holiday then I'm breaking the law and can be fined, as its so crucial that children don't miss even a week of schooling - but we shut schools for months and people have a ladida its all fine attitude to it.

    No its not all fine. What we did to children was terrible, unforgiveable, and all to save some people from a natural end to their life from a natural virus. It will affect children for decades to come.

    There are children approaching GCSEs etc now who missed absolutely crucial formative time at school and never caught up.
    They were schooled remotely via the web and it is ironic that staunch advocates of WFH for themselves can clearly see the disadvantages for their children.

    Incidentally, Labour sees schools as glorified childminders, or at least that is the impression from their proposal to provide nursery places in schools.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,039
    Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    I’m hearing that this new cohort is especially fucked from personal anecdotes - teacher/professor friends. But also seeing it online

    It makes sense. Even a war arguably isn’t as traumatic as what we did to our own societies 2020-2022

    I sincerely pray that you are right in your sunny Californian optimism
    I have excellent news. I am right and your concerns are (for a change) massively overdone.
    Well, yeah, but I can turn my normal hysterical reaction into a Knapper’s Gazette column which will be intensely clickbaity due to my shouty madness and be the most read article for the week and make me the editorial favourite invited to Posh Sex Toy Parties so it’s win-win
    The tragedy is that you don't realise that an invitation to Posh Sex Toy Parties after writing a twatty article for twats isn't your reward, it's your punishment
    You’ve clearly never been to a Posh Sex Toy Party

    I strongly recommend
    Fleshlights ready for action
  • Taz said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    I’m hearing that this new cohort is especially fucked from personal anecdotes - teacher/professor friends. But also seeing it online

    It makes sense. Even a war arguably isn’t as traumatic as what we did to our own societies 2020-2022

    I sincerely pray that you are right in your sunny Californian optimism
    Absolutely, there has been damage inflicted on young people that will affect them the rest of their lives.

    Which should be pretty bloody obvious. If I don't take my kids to school for a week as I want to take them on holiday then I'm breaking the law and can be fined, as its so crucial that children don't miss even a week of schooling - but we shut schools for months and people have a ladida its all fine attitude to it.

    No its not all fine. What we did to children was terrible, unforgiveable, and all to save some people from a natural end to their life from a natural virus. It will affect children for decades to come.

    There are children approaching GCSEs etc now who missed absolutely crucial formative time at school and never caught up.
    ‘We’ !
    Yes, we as a country.

    And to my shame I agreed with lockdown at the time. Something I bitterly regret.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,002

    I'm right and so's my wife

    There are two people in every marriage. The one who’s always right, and the husband.
  • Sandpit said:

    The biggest political story of 2023 is probably Nicola Strugeon, but close behind is the unravelling of the Post Office scandal.

    I have my parents visiting at the moment, and they took turns reading chapters of Nick Wallis’ book for several hours a day.

    The Post Office scandal is background noise in 2023 but the combination of its possible conclusion, the television drama and a general election might mean it dominates 2024.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730
    FF43 said:

    Given the incompetence and lack of seriousness of the Johnson government, as exposed by the Covid enquiry, the British Covid experience could have been a lot worse than it actually was.

    Maybe we can thank those maligned civil servants for managing it somehow.

    They were part and parcel of the problem. Ignorant, arrogant, and frantic to justify themselves.

    The fact that Johnson and his cronies - Cummings, Hancock, Williamson, Gibb etc - were even worse does not give the likes of Case a free pass for their own uselessness.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    I’m hearing that this new cohort is especially fucked from personal anecdotes - teacher/professor friends. But also seeing it online

    It makes sense. Even a war arguably isn’t as traumatic as what we did to our own societies 2020-2022

    I sincerely pray that you are right in your sunny Californian optimism
    Absolutely, there has been damage inflicted on young people that will affect them the rest of their lives.

    Which should be pretty bloody obvious. If I don't take my kids to school for a week as I want to take them on holiday then I'm breaking the law and can be fined, as its so crucial that children don't miss even a week of schooling - but we shut schools for months and people have a ladida its all fine attitude to it.

    No its not all fine. What we did to children was terrible, unforgiveable, and all to save some people from a natural end to their life from a natural virus. It will affect children for decades to come.

    There are children approaching GCSEs etc now who missed absolutely crucial formative time at school and never caught up.
    As time goes by I tend more towards your side of the argument. Lockdowns - esp schools - were a tragic calamity. Sweden was right

    Also right was my half mad brother, who raved at me from his Peruvian hilltop - “what are you doing, this is crazy, you’re fucking up humanity to save the very old and very fat”
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730
    edited December 2023
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    I’m hearing that this new cohort is especially fucked from personal anecdotes - teacher/professor friends. But also seeing it online

    It makes sense. Even a war arguably isn’t as traumatic as what we did to our own societies 2020-2022

    I sincerely pray that you are right in your sunny Californian optimism
    Absolutely, there has been damage inflicted on young people that will affect them the rest of their lives.

    Which should be pretty bloody obvious. If I don't take my kids to school for a week as I want to take them on holiday then I'm breaking the law and can be fined, as its so crucial that children don't miss even a week of schooling - but we shut schools for months and people have a ladida its all fine attitude to it.

    No its not all fine. What we did to children was terrible, unforgiveable, and all to save some people from a natural end to their life from a natural virus. It will affect children for decades to come.

    There are children approaching GCSEs etc now who missed absolutely crucial formative time at school and never caught up.
    As time goes by I tend more towards your side of the argument. Lockdowns - esp schools - were a tragic calamity. Sweden was right

    Also right was my half mad brother, who raved at me from his Peruvian hilltop - “what are you doing, this is crazy, you’re fucking up humanity to save the very old and very fat”
    Sweden shut secondary schools for longer than we did.

    They kept primaries open as far as possible, but that was easier for them given they tend to be much smaller than ours ( and have smaller classes than ours) anyway.

    Edit - and Peru had one of the worst death rates in the world and not just among the elderly.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    I’m hearing that this new cohort is especially fucked from personal anecdotes - teacher/professor friends. But also seeing it online

    It makes sense. Even a war arguably isn’t as traumatic as what we did to our own societies 2020-2022

    I sincerely pray that you are right in your sunny Californian optimism
    Absolutely, there has been damage inflicted on young people that will affect them the rest of their lives.

    Which should be pretty bloody obvious. If I don't take my kids to school for a week as I want to take them on holiday then I'm breaking the law and can be fined, as its so crucial that children don't miss even a week of schooling - but we shut schools for months and people have a ladida its all fine attitude to it.

    No its not all fine. What we did to children was terrible, unforgiveable, and all to save some people from a natural end to their life from a natural virus. It will affect children for decades to come.

    There are children approaching GCSEs etc now who missed absolutely crucial formative time at school and never caught up.
    As time goes by I tend more towards your side of the argument. Lockdowns - esp schools - were a tragic calamity. Sweden was right

    Also right was my half mad brother, who raved at me from his Peruvian hilltop - “what are you doing, this is crazy, you’re fucking up humanity to save the very old and very fat”
    Sweden shut secondary schools for longer than we did.

    They kept primaries open as far as possible, but that was easier for them given they tend to be much smaller than ours ( and have smaller classes than ours) anyway.

    Edit - and Peru had one of the worst death rates in the world and not just among the elderly.
    He wasn’t telling me to copy Peru. Indeed he raged at their insanity, as well
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 22,371
    edited December 2023

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    I’m hearing that this new cohort is especially fucked from personal anecdotes - teacher/professor friends. But also seeing it online

    It makes sense. Even a war arguably isn’t as traumatic as what we did to our own societies 2020-2022

    I sincerely pray that you are right in your sunny Californian optimism
    Absolutely, there has been damage inflicted on young people that will affect them the rest of their lives.

    Which should be pretty bloody obvious. If I don't take my kids to school for a week as I want to take them on holiday then I'm breaking the law and can be fined, as its so crucial that children don't miss even a week of schooling - but we shut schools for months and people have a ladida its all fine attitude to it.

    No its not all fine. What we did to children was terrible, unforgiveable, and all to save some people from a natural end to their life from a natural virus. It will affect children for decades to come.

    There are children approaching GCSEs etc now who missed absolutely crucial formative time at school and never caught up.
    They were schooled remotely via the web and it is ironic that staunch advocates of WFH for themselves can clearly see the disadvantages for their children.

    Incidentally, Labour sees schools as glorified childminders, or at least that is the impression from their proposal to provide nursery places in schools.
    Some were schooled remotely via the web. Especially those who have good parents who already read to them at home and gave them all the advantages of loving, supportive parents who could support them. I took time off work to go through my kids schooling with them - but many did not and could not even if they wanted to.

    Disadvantaged children who get popped in front of the TV and left to their own devices, or with parents who can't comprehend what the teachers should be teaching them etc - they did not.

    Children of educated, 'middle class' parents are already very advantageous before they even start school - schools are tasked in part with trying to close that gap by giving everyone an opportunity. Instead we did the polar opposite for years and aggravated that gap turning it into a chasm. Which was loudly supported and still defended primarily by those who claim to support equality.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,147

    Sandpit said:

    The biggest political story of 2023 is probably Nicola Strugeon, but close behind is the unravelling of the Post Office scandal.

    I have my parents visiting at the moment, and they took turns reading chapters of Nick Wallis’ book for several hours a day.

    The Post Office scandal is background noise in 2023 but the combination of its possible conclusion, the television drama and a general election might mean it dominates 2024.
    As those who have followed the story will know, the settlement cost will formally bankrupt the PO leaving taxpayers to pick up the bill.
  • ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Festive fly-tipping sees toilet dumped in beauty spot….

    Why would anyone dump London in a beauty spot?

    *Grabs tinfoil hat and ducks*
    London *is* a beauty spot.
  • Forget Iraq or trying to abolish the role of Lord Chancellor via a reshuffle this might be Blair’s biggest blunder.

    Belfast might have had a football team playing in England’s Premier League if Tony Blair had got his way, newly released documents show.

    The then prime minister was keen to relocate Wimbledon FC to the Northern Irish capital in the late 1990s, hoping it would be a unifying force in the divided city.

    There was talk of a 40,000-seater stadium being built, as well as a sporting academy, if the south-west London side moved to the province and changed its name to Belfast United.

    Previously confidential state papers include a note from 1997 described as “following up earlier informal discussions about the possibility of an English Premier League football club relocating to Belfast”.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/28/tony-blair-wanted-to-relocate-wimbledon-fc-to-belfast/
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    I’m hearing that this new cohort is especially fucked from personal anecdotes - teacher/professor friends. But also seeing it online

    It makes sense. Even a war arguably isn’t as traumatic as what we did to our own societies 2020-2022

    I sincerely pray that you are right in your sunny Californian optimism
    Absolutely, there has been damage inflicted on young people that will affect them the rest of their lives.

    Which should be pretty bloody obvious. If I don't take my kids to school for a week as I want to take them on holiday then I'm breaking the law and can be fined, as its so crucial that children don't miss even a week of schooling - but we shut schools for months and people have a ladida its all fine attitude to it.

    No its not all fine. What we did to children was terrible, unforgiveable, and all to save some people from a natural end to their life from a natural virus. It will affect children for decades to come.

    There are children approaching GCSEs etc now who missed absolutely crucial formative time at school and never caught up.
    They were schooled remotely via the web and it is ironic that staunch advocates of WFH for themselves can clearly see the disadvantages for their children.

    Incidentally, Labour sees schools as glorified childminders, or at least that is the impression from their proposal to provide nursery places in schools.
    Some were schooled remotely via the web. Especially those who have good parents who already read to them at home and gave them all the advantages of loving, supportive parents who could support them. I took time off work to go through my kids schooling with them - but many did not.

    Disadvantaged children who get popped in front of the TV and left to their own devices, or with parents who can't comprehend what the teachers should be teaching them etc - they did not.

    Children of educated, 'middle class' parents are already very advantageous before they even start school - schools are tasked in part with trying to close that gap by giving everyone an opportunity. Instead we did the polar opposite for years and aggravated that gap turning it into a chasm. Which was loudly supported and still defended primarily by those who claim to support equality.
    Well said. Remember Starmer wanted even longer lockdowns. And the teaching unions couldn’t wait to go home and do nothing but Zoom
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    I’m hearing that this new cohort is especially fucked from personal anecdotes - teacher/professor friends. But also seeing it online

    It makes sense. Even a war arguably isn’t as traumatic as what we did to our own societies 2020-2022

    I sincerely pray that you are right in your sunny Californian optimism
    Absolutely, there has been damage inflicted on young people that will affect them the rest of their lives.

    Which should be pretty bloody obvious. If I don't take my kids to school for a week as I want to take them on holiday then I'm breaking the law and can be fined, as its so crucial that children don't miss even a week of schooling - but we shut schools for months and people have a ladida its all fine attitude to it.

    No its not all fine. What we did to children was terrible, unforgiveable, and all to save some people from a natural end to their life from a natural virus. It will affect children for decades to come.

    There are children approaching GCSEs etc now who missed absolutely crucial formative time at school and never caught up.
    They were schooled remotely via the web and it is ironic that staunch advocates of WFH for themselves can clearly see the disadvantages for their children.

    Incidentally, Labour sees schools as glorified childminders, or at least that is the impression from their proposal to provide nursery places in schools.
    Some were schooled remotely via the web. Especially those who have good parents who already read to them at home and gave them all the advantages of loving, supportive parents who could support them. I took time off work to go through my kids schooling with them - but many did not.

    Disadvantaged children who get popped in front of the TV and left to their own devices, or with parents who can't comprehend what the teachers should be teaching them etc - they did not.

    Children of educated, 'middle class' parents are already very advantageous before they even start school - schools are tasked in part with trying to close that gap by giving everyone an opportunity. Instead we did the polar opposite for years and aggravated that gap turning it into a chasm. Which was loudly supported and still defended primarily by those who claim to support equality.
    Well said. Remember Starmer wanted even longer lockdowns. And the teaching unions couldn’t wait to go home and do nothing but Zoom
    Unions maybe, anecdotally I wouldn't say teachers though. The teachers I know wanted to be in schools and wanted the kids in schools too.

    The teachers I know went into education because they want to help children and care for the children they teach - people like that probably choose to stay teaching rather than get involved as much with union politics. They could see the harm that was done by shutting schools.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Or it may be seen that they were a necessary evil, given what we knew at the time. Especially the first lockdown.
    The first is the least controversial. Tho even there I wonder

    The later lockdowns now seem like a kind of universal madness
    The later lockdowns would have been shorter if the airports had not re-opened.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Not the Plague then after all?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730
    edited December 2023

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    I’m hearing that this new cohort is especially fucked from personal anecdotes - teacher/professor friends. But also seeing it online

    It makes sense. Even a war arguably isn’t as traumatic as what we did to our own societies 2020-2022

    I sincerely pray that you are right in your sunny Californian optimism
    Absolutely, there has been damage inflicted on young people that will affect them the rest of their lives.

    Which should be pretty bloody obvious. If I don't take my kids to school for a week as I want to take them on holiday then I'm breaking the law and can be fined, as its so crucial that children don't miss even a week of schooling - but we shut schools for months and people have a ladida its all fine attitude to it.

    No its not all fine. What we did to children was terrible, unforgiveable, and all to save some people from a natural end to their life from a natural virus. It will affect children for decades to come.

    There are children approaching GCSEs etc now who missed absolutely crucial formative time at school and never caught up.
    They were schooled remotely via the web and it is ironic that staunch advocates of WFH for themselves can clearly see the disadvantages for their children.

    Incidentally, Labour sees schools as glorified childminders, or at least that is the impression from their proposal to provide nursery places in schools.
    Some were schooled remotely via the web. Especially those who have good parents who already read to them at home and gave them all the advantages of loving, supportive parents who could support them. I took time off work to go through my kids schooling with them - but many did not.

    Disadvantaged children who get popped in front of the TV and left to their own devices, or with parents who can't comprehend what the teachers should be teaching them etc - they did not.

    Children of educated, 'middle class' parents are already very advantageous before they even start school - schools are tasked in part with trying to close that gap by giving everyone an opportunity. Instead we did the polar opposite for years and aggravated that gap turning it into a chasm. Which was loudly supported and still defended primarily by those who claim to support equality.
    Well said. Remember Starmer wanted even longer lockdowns. And the teaching unions couldn’t wait to go home and do nothing but Zoom
    Unions maybe, anecdotally I wouldn't say teachers though. The teachers I know wanted to be in schools and wanted the kids in schools too.

    The teachers I know went into education because they want to help children and care for the children they teach - people like that probably choose to stay teaching rather than get involved as much with union politics. They could see the harm that was done by shutting schools.
    We wanted to be back in schools, but we also wanted sensible precautions taken to prevent Covid storming through them.

    Which the DfE were unable or unwilling to put in place, leading to constant conflict. Not helped by the increasingly bizarre behaviour of the DfE itself, which on one memorable occasion issued four contradictory sets of instructions before 9am *on the same day*.

    This, in turn, made managing schools in the face of soaring infection rates utterly impossible and meant that the only realistic outcome was closure.

    This was explained more clearly when we found that senior officers at the DfE had been drinking throughout the process, and that their 'senior education adviser' was a twenty-something public schoolboy whose only experience of state education was when he had spent two not very successful years on the infamous TeachFirst programme.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    I’m hearing that this new cohort is especially fucked from personal anecdotes - teacher/professor friends. But also seeing it online

    It makes sense. Even a war arguably isn’t as traumatic as what we did to our own societies 2020-2022

    I sincerely pray that you are right in your sunny Californian optimism
    Absolutely, there has been damage inflicted on young people that will affect them the rest of their lives.

    Which should be pretty bloody obvious. If I don't take my kids to school for a week as I want to take them on holiday then I'm breaking the law and can be fined, as its so crucial that children don't miss even a week of schooling - but we shut schools for months and people have a ladida its all fine attitude to it.

    No its not all fine. What we did to children was terrible, unforgiveable, and all to save some people from a natural end to their life from a natural virus. It will affect children for decades to come.

    There are children approaching GCSEs etc now who missed absolutely crucial formative time at school and never caught up.
    They were schooled remotely via the web and it is ironic that staunch advocates of WFH for themselves can clearly see the disadvantages for their children.

    Incidentally, Labour sees schools as glorified childminders, or at least that is the impression from their proposal to provide nursery places in schools.
    Some were schooled remotely via the web. Especially those who have good parents who already read to them at home and gave them all the advantages of loving, supportive parents who could support them. I took time off work to go through my kids schooling with them - but many did not.

    Disadvantaged children who get popped in front of the TV and left to their own devices, or with parents who can't comprehend what the teachers should be teaching them etc - they did not.

    Children of educated, 'middle class' parents are already very advantageous before they even start school - schools are tasked in part with trying to close that gap by giving everyone an opportunity. Instead we did the polar opposite for years and aggravated that gap turning it into a chasm. Which was loudly supported and still defended primarily by those who claim to support equality.
    Well said. Remember Starmer wanted even longer lockdowns. And the teaching unions couldn’t wait to go home and do nothing but Zoom
    If the Covid inquiry does not question Starmer on his views and statements during the crisis, then it is even more useless and pointless than it already seems to be,

    A good LOTO has a great deal of power in setting the mood and trajectory of discussion - and I'd argue that Starmer did reasonably well during the crisis. But he also made some absolute howlers.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Or it may be seen that they were a necessary evil, given what we knew at the time. Especially the first lockdown.
    The first is the least controversial. Tho even there I wonder

    The later lockdowns now seem like a kind of universal madness
    The later lockdowns would have been shorter if the airports had not re-opened.
    Eat Out to Help Out still looking like a top Sunak f*ck-up
  • kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I had a similar experience with weight and mental health. I look at some of the pictures I took of myself as lockdown ground on and its clear I was falling apart. There were also online evening drinks with friends where (although I don't remember) I would also fall apart.

    Then things started to unlock. A few shafts of light but the unlocked world of shields and restrictions was also horrible - went to the pub with friends once and it was bad enough that we switched back to online. And then down came Covid and restrictions again. The most oppressive it got was that winter of 2020 where I lived in the Covid hotspot of the whole country and practically *nobody* went outside voluntarily.

    Happily we moved to Scotland in February 2021 to an area that had hardly had any Covid, and was managing the pandemic better. And I was able to make the decision to wean myself off the happy pills I'd been on since the previous summer. Kept working (somehow), kept all the weight as well. 2024 is me making a Serious Effort to get this fat off.
  • Oh deer.

    Zombie deer disease’ could spread to humans as cases surge across US

    Experts say lab research indicates the chronic wasting ailment will spread to people in the future


    “Zombie deer disease” could spread to humans, scientists have warned as cases surge across the United States.

    Chronic wasting disease (CWD), which causes infected animals to become listless and jittery, often drooling and grinding their teeth with a zombie-like blank stare, has spread to 32 US states and four Canadian provinces, according to the United States Geological Survey.

    The deadly disease has cropped up in Kansas, Wisconsin and Nebraska, where more than 40 counties have reported cases, USA Today reports, and has also been found in 800 samples of deer, elk and moose throughout Wyoming.

    “We’re dealing with a disease that is invariably fatal, incurable and highly contagious,” Dr Cory Anderson, the co-director of a CWD programme at University of Minnesota, told The Guardian.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/12/27/zombie-deer-disease-spread-humans-cases-surge-us/?li_source=LI&li_medium=for_you
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,286

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    I’m hearing that this new cohort is especially fucked from personal anecdotes - teacher/professor friends. But also seeing it online

    It makes sense. Even a war arguably isn’t as traumatic as what we did to our own societies 2020-2022

    I sincerely pray that you are right in your sunny Californian optimism
    Absolutely, there has been damage inflicted on young people that will affect them the rest of their lives.

    Which should be pretty bloody obvious. If I don't take my kids to school for a week as I want to take them on holiday then I'm breaking the law and can be fined, as its so crucial that children don't miss even a week of schooling - but we shut schools for months and people have a ladida its all fine attitude to it.

    No its not all fine. What we did to children was terrible, unforgiveable, and all to save some people from a natural end to their life from a natural virus. It will affect children for decades to come.

    There are children approaching GCSEs etc now who missed absolutely crucial formative time at school and never caught up.
    They were schooled remotely via the web and it is ironic that staunch advocates of WFH for themselves can clearly see the disadvantages for their children.

    Incidentally, Labour sees schools as glorified childminders, or at least that is the impression from their proposal to provide nursery places in schools.
    Some were schooled remotely via the web. Especially those who have good parents who already read to them at home and gave them all the advantages of loving, supportive parents who could support them. I took time off work to go through my kids schooling with them - but many did not.

    Disadvantaged children who get popped in front of the TV and left to their own devices, or with parents who can't comprehend what the teachers should be teaching them etc - they did not.

    Children of educated, 'middle class' parents are already very advantageous before they even start school - schools are tasked in part with trying to close that gap by giving everyone an opportunity. Instead we did the polar opposite for years and aggravated that gap turning it into a chasm. Which was loudly supported and still defended primarily by those who claim to support equality.
    Well said. Remember Starmer wanted even longer lockdowns. And the teaching unions couldn’t wait to go home and do nothing but Zoom
    If the Covid inquiry does not question Starmer on his views and statements during the crisis, then it is even more useless and pointless than it already seems to be,

    A good LOTO has a great deal of power in setting the mood and trajectory of discussion - and I'd argue that Starmer did reasonably well during the crisis. But he also made some absolute howlers.
    Starmer was to Covid what IDS was to the Iraq war.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    edited December 2023
    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    The biggest political story of 2023 is probably Nicola Strugeon, but close behind is the unravelling of the Post Office scandal.

    I have my parents visiting at the moment, and they took turns reading chapters of Nick Wallis’ book for several hours a day.

    The Post Office scandal is background noise in 2023 but the combination of its possible conclusion, the television drama and a general election might mean it dominates 2024.
    As those who have followed the story will know, the settlement cost will formally bankrupt the PO leaving taxpayers to pick up the bill.
    The Post Office has long been dependant on the government financing it. The government financed the extraordinarily expensive litigation which the Post Office has been using - and is still using - to resist the claims of the subpostmasters.

    This is at heart a governmental failing - a failure of governance of a state owned institution, a failure of the criminal and civil justice system and a continuing failure by the government to put this right. So yes taxpayers will have to pay the compensation bill.

    But they have already been paying the Post Office's unjustifiable bills - including large bonuses for their staff - for years. There is absolutely no justification for private citizens (the subpostmasters) who have done nothing wrong to bear - alone - the costs of the Post Office's and government's failings. They have already borne a far too heavy price already.

    The current Post Office should be closed down, its existing management and most of its staff removed and they should start again. Its reputation is irretrievably ruined and, judging by its continuing behaviour, none of its management has a handle on the mess they've made let alone how to put matters right. They simply do not get it. A few new procedures and a pro forma apology simply will not do. A wholesale clear out is needed.
  • ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    I’m hearing that this new cohort is especially fucked from personal anecdotes - teacher/professor friends. But also seeing it online

    It makes sense. Even a war arguably isn’t as traumatic as what we did to our own societies 2020-2022

    I sincerely pray that you are right in your sunny Californian optimism
    Absolutely, there has been damage inflicted on young people that will affect them the rest of their lives.

    Which should be pretty bloody obvious. If I don't take my kids to school for a week as I want to take them on holiday then I'm breaking the law and can be fined, as its so crucial that children don't miss even a week of schooling - but we shut schools for months and people have a ladida its all fine attitude to it.

    No its not all fine. What we did to children was terrible, unforgiveable, and all to save some people from a natural end to their life from a natural virus. It will affect children for decades to come.

    There are children approaching GCSEs etc now who missed absolutely crucial formative time at school and never caught up.
    They were schooled remotely via the web and it is ironic that staunch advocates of WFH for themselves can clearly see the disadvantages for their children.

    Incidentally, Labour sees schools as glorified childminders, or at least that is the impression from their proposal to provide nursery places in schools.
    Some were schooled remotely via the web. Especially those who have good parents who already read to them at home and gave them all the advantages of loving, supportive parents who could support them. I took time off work to go through my kids schooling with them - but many did not.

    Disadvantaged children who get popped in front of the TV and left to their own devices, or with parents who can't comprehend what the teachers should be teaching them etc - they did not.

    Children of educated, 'middle class' parents are already very advantageous before they even start school - schools are tasked in part with trying to close that gap by giving everyone an opportunity. Instead we did the polar opposite for years and aggravated that gap turning it into a chasm. Which was loudly supported and still defended primarily by those who claim to support equality.
    Well said. Remember Starmer wanted even longer lockdowns. And the teaching unions couldn’t wait to go home and do nothing but Zoom
    Unions maybe, anecdotally I wouldn't say teachers though. The teachers I know wanted to be in schools and wanted the kids in schools too.

    The teachers I know went into education because they want to help children and care for the children they teach - people like that probably choose to stay teaching rather than get involved as much with union politics. They could see the harm that was done by shutting schools.
    We wanted to be back in schools, but we also wanted sensible precautions taken to prevent Covid storming through them.

    Which the DfE were unable or unwilling to put in place, leading to constant conflict. Not helped by the increasingly bizarre behaviour of the DfE itself, which on one memorable occasion issued four contradictory sets of instructions before 9am *on the same day*.

    This, in turn, made managing schools in the face of soaring infection rates utterly impossible and meant that the only realistic outcome was closure.

    This was explained more clearly when we found that senior officers at the DfE had been drinking throughout the process, and that their 'senior education adviser' was a twenty-something public schoolboy whose only experience of state education was when he had spent two not very successful years on the infamous TeachFirst programme.
    And also, we would have needed a plan of how schools were to operate with ongoing substantial staff and pupil sickness. In most cases, there wasn't one and it's hard to imagine what that plan would have looked like.

    That's a symptom of a wider question- has the UK got the balance of lean efficiency and resilience right? I'm not saying it hasn't, maybe running things tightly 95 percent of the time is worth the risk of collapse in the other 5 percent, but we ought to check.

    More productive than assuming we can get what we want by saying it loudly enough.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Or it may be seen that they were a necessary evil, given what we knew at the time. Especially the first lockdown.
    The first is the least controversial. Tho even there I wonder

    The later lockdowns now seem like a kind of universal madness
    The later lockdowns would have been shorter if the airports had not re-opened.
    Eat Out to Help Out still looking like a top Sunak f*ck-up
    Indeed. In my view, which I also stated at the time, the two biggest mistakes made by the government were:

    1) Failing to lock down quickly enough, both in March and December 2020, which meant that the lockdowns were longer that they would otherwise had to have been.

    2) The prioritisation of pubs and restaurants over schools. It seemed insane at the time that adults were encouraged to socialise while kids were kept isolated.
  • Although I heavily supported them at the time I’ve completely changed my mind. We locked down to protect the elderly who have been completely shielded from any impact, while nurses and doctors get shafted and young people get the largest tax burden in history. All this whilst being called thick, woke and lazy.

    For that I say no, should have let young people get on with life.
  • As we're apparently debating lockdown again, remember this. We had a choice - a controlled lockdown, or an uncontrolled shutdown.

    We chose the former, with massive government support for jobs and companies.

    Alternately we could have told people to keep calm and carry on. Covid tears massive holes in workplaces which shut themselves down due to a lack of healthy workers willing to take the risk. With no massive financial support and thus the rapid collapse of a whole stack of businesses big and small that summer.

    I have no problem with people arguing against lockdown. But they need to recognise that there was no alternative scenario where things carry on as normal.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Or it may be seen that they were a necessary evil, given what we knew at the time. Especially the first lockdown.
    The first is the least controversial. Tho even there I wonder

    The later lockdowns now seem like a kind of universal madness
    The later lockdowns would have been shorter if the airports had not re-opened.
    Eat Out to Help Out still looking like a top Sunak f*ck-up
    Indeed. In my view, which I also stated at the time, the two biggest mistakes made by the government were:

    1) Failing to lock down quickly enough, both in March and December 2020, which meant that the lockdowns were longer that they would otherwise had to have been.

    2) The prioritisation of pubs and restaurants over schools. It seemed insane at the time that adults were encouraged to socialise while kids were kept isolated.
    I'd put the airbridge ahead of your (2), although the main thrust isn't wrong.
  • As we're apparently debating lockdown again, remember this. We had a choice - a controlled lockdown, or an uncontrolled shutdown.

    We chose the former, with massive government support for jobs and companies.

    Alternately we could have told people to keep calm and carry on. Covid tears massive holes in workplaces which shut themselves down due to a lack of healthy workers willing to take the risk. With no massive financial support and thus the rapid collapse of a whole stack of businesses big and small that summer.

    I have no problem with people arguing against lockdown. But they need to recognise that there was no alternative scenario where things carry on as normal.

    Agree about that but for young people, the impact has been so terrible I now wonder if it was worth it.
  • Although I heavily supported them at the time I’ve completely changed my mind. We locked down to protect the elderly who have been completely shielded from any impact, while nurses and doctors get shafted and young people get the largest tax burden in history. All this whilst being called thick, woke and lazy.

    For that I say no, should have let young people get on with life.

    The elderly were completely shielded from any impact other than death, you mean?
  • kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I had a similar experience with weight and mental health. I look at some of the pictures I took of myself as lockdown ground on and its clear I was falling apart. There were also online evening drinks with friends where (although I don't remember) I would also fall apart.

    Then things started to unlock. A few shafts of light but the unlocked world of shields and restrictions was also horrible - went to the pub with friends once and it was bad enough that we switched back to online. And then down came Covid and restrictions again. The most oppressive it got was that winter of 2020 where I lived in the Covid hotspot of the whole country and practically *nobody* went outside voluntarily.

    Happily we moved to Scotland in February 2021 to an area that had hardly had any Covid, and was managing the pandemic better. And I was able to make the decision to wean myself off the happy pills I'd been on since the previous summer. Kept working (somehow), kept all the weight as well. 2024 is me making a Serious Effort to get this fat off.
    A side effect of some 'happy' pills is weight gain so may not just be a case of 'falling apart'.

    Good luck with things in 2024.

    It will be a very very long time before a UK government can use lockdown again after the Johnson revelations.
  • Oh deer.

    Zombie deer disease’ could spread to humans as cases surge across US

    Experts say lab research indicates the chronic wasting ailment will spread to people in the future


    “Zombie deer disease” could spread to humans, scientists have warned as cases surge across the United States.

    Chronic wasting disease (CWD), which causes infected animals to become listless and jittery, often drooling and grinding their teeth with a zombie-like blank stare, has spread to 32 US states and four Canadian provinces, according to the United States Geological Survey.

    The deadly disease has cropped up in Kansas, Wisconsin and Nebraska, where more than 40 counties have reported cases, USA Today reports, and has also been found in 800 samples of deer, elk and moose throughout Wyoming.

    “We’re dealing with a disease that is invariably fatal, incurable and highly contagious,” Dr Cory Anderson, the co-director of a CWD programme at University of Minnesota, told The Guardian.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/12/27/zombie-deer-disease-spread-humans-cases-surge-us/?li_source=LI&li_medium=for_you

    Surely Zombie Deer Disease is already endemic across Red states in America.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,039

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Or it may be seen that they were a necessary evil, given what we knew at the time. Especially the first lockdown.
    The first is the least controversial. Tho even there I wonder

    The later lockdowns now seem like a kind of universal madness
    The later lockdowns would have been shorter if the airports had not re-opened.
    Eat Out to Help Out still looking like a top Sunak f*ck-up
    Debatable according to this article but, you know, Tories innit.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-67658106
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730

    Oh deer.

    Zombie deer disease’ could spread to humans as cases surge across US

    Experts say lab research indicates the chronic wasting ailment will spread to people in the future


    “Zombie deer disease” could spread to humans, scientists have warned as cases surge across the United States.

    Chronic wasting disease (CWD), which causes infected animals to become listless and jittery, often drooling and grinding their teeth with a zombie-like blank stare, has spread to 32 US states and four Canadian provinces, according to the United States Geological Survey.

    The deadly disease has cropped up in Kansas, Wisconsin and Nebraska, where more than 40 counties have reported cases, USA Today reports, and has also been found in 800 samples of deer, elk and moose throughout Wyoming.

    “We’re dealing with a disease that is invariably fatal, incurable and highly contagious,” Dr Cory Anderson, the co-director of a CWD programme at University of Minnesota, told The Guardian.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/12/27/zombie-deer-disease-spread-humans-cases-surge-us/?li_source=LI&li_medium=for_you

    Surely Zombie Deer Disease is already endemic across Red states in America.
    It certainly is among the higher reaches of government in this country.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,039

    Although I heavily supported them at the time I’ve completely changed my mind. We locked down to protect the elderly who have been completely shielded from any impact, while nurses and doctors get shafted and young people get the largest tax burden in history. All this whilst being called thick, woke and lazy.

    For that I say no, should have let young people get on with life.

    No wonder you’re a labour fanboy. More Cpt Hindsight stuff.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Had it happened, and had Boris subsequently died, then it is likely that lockdowns would not have been necessary. Simply, the population would have been so terrified, they would have locked themselves up voluntarily.

    This was clearly Boris's plan all along.

    Watch this. I predict this video will become iconic

    Francis Collins of the NIH admits the lockdowns were possibly a tremendous mistake, because the “public health mindset” only thinks about saving lives, not about the collateral damage of closed schools, damaged economies, screwed up people

    https://x.com/kerpen/status/1740200105788199218?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Collins was pivotal in the US reaction to Covid
    Pre-lockdown I was of a healthy weight, went to the gym four times a week, held down a full time job.

    Now, long after lockdown ended, I still have a spare tyre round my gut, drink too much, struggle with anger and depression, and work only sporadically (thus paying far less tax than I did pre-lockdown).

    I wouldn't be surprised if lockdowns have taken ten years off my life.
    I am not entirely dissimilar. Billions more have suffered

    I’ve also been reading, this morning, about the appalling impact of Covid on kids age 2-5 during lockdown - who are now going through education. They are asocial and retarded

    Lockdowns might in future be seen as one of the greatest FAILURES in public health. Ironic
    Interestingly, I was just reading an article about slightly older kids (9-11) in the US and how they'd made up almost all their lost academic performance.

    But - of course - the US experience was very different. While schools in most places were closed, there was essentially no restrictions on meeting other kids your age in other situations.
    It’s the the sociopathy of the younger cohort which is the big issue, apparently. They don’t know how to interact. They spent two years alone at a crucial age

    We did this for a really really bad flu
    Are kids that grow up on farms particularly prone to sociopathy?

    HMG made plenty of mistakes.

    But kids are pretty adaptable. German kids who went through the destruction of their families and country, and nightly bombings, and the like, turned out OK.

    Sure, there were too many restrictions. And sure, it's possible there is long term damage. But kids are socialising now and their brains are pretty plastic.
    I’m hearing that this new cohort is especially fucked from personal anecdotes - teacher/professor friends. But also seeing it online

    It makes sense. Even a war arguably isn’t as traumatic as what we did to our own societies 2020-2022

    I sincerely pray that you are right in your sunny Californian optimism
    Absolutely, there has been damage inflicted on young people that will affect them the rest of their lives.

    Which should be pretty bloody obvious. If I don't take my kids to school for a week as I want to take them on holiday then I'm breaking the law and can be fined, as its so crucial that children don't miss even a week of schooling - but we shut schools for months and people have a ladida its all fine attitude to it.

    No its not all fine. What we did to children was terrible, unforgiveable, and all to save some people from a natural end to their life from a natural virus. It will affect children for decades to come.

    There are children approaching GCSEs etc now who missed absolutely crucial formative time at school and never caught up.
    They were schooled remotely via the web and it is ironic that staunch advocates of WFH for themselves can clearly see the disadvantages for their children.

    Incidentally, Labour sees schools as glorified childminders, or at least that is the impression from their proposal to provide nursery places in schools.
    Some were schooled remotely via the web. Especially those who have good parents who already read to them at home and gave them all the advantages of loving, supportive parents who could support them. I took time off work to go through my kids schooling with them - but many did not.

    Disadvantaged children who get popped in front of the TV and left to their own devices, or with parents who can't comprehend what the teachers should be teaching them etc - they did not.

    Children of educated, 'middle class' parents are already very advantageous before they even start school - schools are tasked in part with trying to close that gap by giving everyone an opportunity. Instead we did the polar opposite for years and aggravated that gap turning it into a chasm. Which was loudly supported and still defended primarily by those who claim to support equality.
    Well said. Remember Starmer wanted even longer lockdowns. And the teaching unions couldn’t wait to go home and do nothing but Zoom
    Unions maybe, anecdotally I wouldn't say teachers though. The teachers I know wanted to be in schools and wanted the kids in schools too.

    The teachers I know went into education because they want to help children and care for the children they teach - people like that probably choose to stay teaching rather than get involved as much with union politics. They could see the harm that was done by shutting schools.
    We wanted to be back in schools, but we also wanted sensible precautions taken to prevent Covid storming through them.

    Which the DfE were unable or unwilling to put in place, leading to constant conflict. Not helped by the increasingly bizarre behaviour of the DfE itself, which on one memorable occasion issued four contradictory sets of instructions before 9am *on the same day*.

    This, in turn, made managing schools in the face of soaring infection rates utterly impossible and meant that the only realistic outcome was closure.

    This was explained more clearly when we found that senior officers at the DfE had been drinking throughout the process, and that their 'senior education adviser' was a twenty-something public schoolboy whose only experience of state education was when he had spent two not very successful years on the infamous TeachFirst programme.
    And also, we would have needed a plan of how schools were to operate with ongoing substantial staff and pupil sickness. In most cases, there wasn't one and it's hard to imagine what that plan would have looked like.

    That's a symptom of a wider question- has the UK got the balance of lean efficiency and resilience right? I'm not saying it hasn't, maybe running things tightly 95 percent of the time is worth the risk of collapse in the other 5 percent, but we ought to check.

    More productive than assuming we can get what we want by saying it loudly enough.
    Yes, not having "lockdowns" doesn't mean normality. There was a deadly virus spreading throughout the land. The idea that everything could have carried on normally while that happened is absurd.

    In the week before lockdown clinics were like a ghost town, with half or more not attending. Pubs and restaurants were the same. Without a formal structure of closures and economic support there would have been mass business failures.

    I think it worth reviewing what worked and what did not, but keeping calm and carrying on was not a viable plan.

    We even had one PB'er panic-buying PPE then fleeing to a cottage in Wales. I bet that person has changed their tune and is full of pompous bravado now.
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