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Sunak, he’s just not up to it – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,687
edited January 1 in General
Sunak, he’s just not up to it – politicalbetting.com

Sunak had a choice between either being seen as a competent anti-Truss centre ground Conservative, or a populist culture war fighting populist.He's instead tried to do both, while managing to pull off neither.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Options
    Sunak nees to stop swinging both ways.

    Pick a philosophy and stick to it.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,285
    Second, like Labour in the IOW
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,681
    IanB2 said:

    Second, like Labour in the IOW

    Presumably all the Vectis and other independents not standing boosted the Tory vote.

    Big win for the LDs in Blaby though, so @Icarus called that one right.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756

    Sunak nees to stop swinging both ways.

    Pick a philosophy and stick to it.

    Just wait till you get Sir Keir Wibble

    Sunak will seem like a rock of consistency
  • Options

    Sunak nees to stop swinging both ways.

    Pick a philosophy and stick to it.

    Just wait till you get Sir Keir Wibble

    Sunak will seem like a rock of consistency
    I'm not worried, he's a lawyer, he's a byword for integrity.

    Plus he's annoyed the Corbynites and the Faragists, which makes him brilliant for a socialist.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,056

    Sunak nees to stop swinging both ways.

    Pick a philosophy and stick to it.

    Government introduces a policy

    People raise concerns

    The government listens and amends the policy

    Isn’t that a good thing?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,681

    Sunak nees to stop swinging both ways.

    Pick a philosophy and stick to it.

    Just wait till you get Sir Keir Wibble

    Sunak will seem like a rock of consistency
    Consistency is the hallmark of a fool...
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756

    Sunak nees to stop swinging both ways.

    Pick a philosophy and stick to it.

    Just wait till you get Sir Keir Wibble

    Sunak will seem like a rock of consistency
    I'm not worried, he's a lawyer, he's a byword for integrity.

    Plus he's annoyed the Corbynites and the Faragists, which makes him brilliant for a socialist.
    Well no point worrying about a man with no principles, it brings Grouch Marx to mind.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756
    Ghedebrav said:

    Remember Rishi’s Razor:

    Sunak Is Crap At Politics.

    How else can you possibly explain the insane timeline of HS2 under Rishi, from announcing the project’s cancellation in its *key terminus city*, to then spending the earmarked money in London, a city with by some distance the best-funded transport infrastructure in the country.

    This salary threshold is another example. Rwanda is another.

    Please please please can we have a general election ASAP?

    No, you'll be amazed at the recovery in Rishsi's fortune, Bootle nailed on blue.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,681
    edited December 2023

    Sunak nees to stop swinging both ways.

    Pick a philosophy and stick to it.

    Government introduces a policy

    People raise concerns

    The government listens and amends the policy

    Isn’t that a good thing?
    Yes, I think it is sometimes.

    The way Sunak made a song and dance over the change compared to the low key u turn is rather characteristic of his political ineptitude.

    The random policy generator shoots out a kneejerk reaction to the highest immigration figures on record, trumpeted to the dinosaurs of the Daily Mail and Express, then quietly abandoned a few weeks later. Whatever the wisdom or not of the policy it is a pretty cackhanded approach.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,479
    edited December 2023

    Sunak nees to stop swinging both ways.

    Pick a philosophy and stick to it.

    Government introduces a policy

    People raise concerns

    The government listens and amends the policy

    Isn’t that a good thing?
    Compared to the rhetoric when the policy was announced this a climbdown.

    As the tweets point out he's pissed off everybody.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756
    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,056

    Sunak nees to stop swinging both ways.

    Pick a philosophy and stick to it.

    Government introduces a policy

    People raise concerns

    The government listens and amends the policy

    Isn’t that a good thing?
    Compared to the rhetoric when the policy was announced this a climbdown.

    As the tweets point out he's pissed off everybody.
    Why should I care whether it’s a climbdown or not? It’s outcomes that matter

  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Foxy said:

    Sunak nees to stop swinging both ways.

    Pick a philosophy and stick to it.

    Government introduces a policy

    People raise concerns

    The government listens and amends the policy

    Isn’t that a good thing?
    Yes, I think it is sometimes.

    The way Sunak made a song and dance over the change compared to the low key u turn is rather characteristic of his political ineptitude.

    The random policy generator shoots out a kneejerk reaction to the highest immigration figures on record, trumpeted to the dinosaurs of the Daily Mail and Express, then quietly abandoned a few weeks later. Whatever the wisdom or not of the policy it is a pretty cackhanded approach.
    It’s all about getting headlines in the Daily Mail, not about governing.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,267
    DavidL said:

    Over 15GW of wind power again this morning after Orsted confirmed that they are proceeding with the Horsea 3 wind farm yesterday which will be the largest single windfarm in the world and should be on line by 2027. This is despite the cancellation of a number of major developments around the world with the company recognising and acknowledging that the policy structure in the UK made it attractive.

    Amongst all the populist blundering incompetence wind is something the UK has got broadly right.

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Sunak nees to stop swinging both ways.

    Pick a philosophy and stick to it.

    Government introduces a policy

    People raise concerns

    The government listens and amends the policy

    Isn’t that a good thing?
    Yes, I think it is sometimes.

    The way Sunak made a song and dance over the change compared to the low key u turn is rather characteristic of his political ineptitude.

    The random policy generator shoots out a kneejerk reaction to the highest immigration figures on record, trumpeted to the dinosaurs of the Daily Mail and Express, then quietly abandoned a few weeks later. Whatever the wisdom or not of the policy it is a pretty cackhanded approach.
    It’s all about getting headlines in the Daily Mail, not about governing.
    Well, the hot air can apparently come in useful.

    (We still need those new interconnectors though.)
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,285
    edited December 2023
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Second, like Labour in the IOW

    Presumably all the Vectis and other independents not standing boosted the Tory vote.

    Big win for the LDs in Blaby though, so @Icarus called that one right.
    I guess so, although the LibDem campaign was surprisingly spirited, and they will have picked up the ‘not Tory, not Labour’ vote that previously went to the Indy’s. I can see from the box figures that the turnout in Tory-leaning St Lawrence, which is small compared to Ventnor, was nevertheless significantly higher. In a low turnout election the die hard elderly Tories turned out nevertheless. And of course the Tory candidate, coming from an island extended family that owns many businesses in the town, had a lot of connections and network to draw upon. A clever choice of candidate by the Tories; had they tried to drop in one of their local politicos they would surely have lost.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,308
    Some rather disappointing and frankly unexpected revisals to GDP growth this morning which put us at risk of a technical recession: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67799713

    The weird thing is that the earnings data and the tax take from it both indicated that if anything economic activity was being underestimated, not over estimated. Curious.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
  • Options

    Sunak nees to stop swinging both ways.

    Pick a philosophy and stick to it.

    Just wait till you get Sir Keir Wibble

    Sunak will seem like a rock of consistency
    More like a pebble surely?
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,873
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    Unlike GI Genocide.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,285
    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    I’m currently reading Jeremy Heywood’s biography (by his wife), which offers an interesting glimpse inside the reality of government. In particular the relentless 24/7 treadmill of issues and problems, meetings and more meetings, people to see, and with the politics left for the politicians to consider. The chapters on the GFC are a great read; Brown comes out of it very well for his leadership and determination as the financial crisis unfolds, which played to all of his technical and political strengths. Yet failure on a stack of other fronts and his government was soon back behind in the polls.

    My guess is that Sunak is ‘performing’ OK in all the meetings behind the scenes, but lacks any real political vision or instinct and allowing others to pull his strings when it comes to the politics, very much as Hague did (and of course LOTO is mostly politics, being PM is mostly administration). And unable to join one up with the other.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,873

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    Unlike GI Genocide.
    https://twitter.com/RedCollectiveUK/status/1737842959742320805
  • Options

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    The UK press is so biased against Labour, staying out of the papers is the best outcome a Labour leader can hope for.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    Smart politics. You’ve gotten used to the ‘look at me’ ego driven politics pioneered by Boris. The trouble is that Sunak is still taking that approach, but is not very good at it. You’re probably yearning for Truss who had the balls to say what ever entered her brain.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631

    Sunak nees to stop swinging both ways.

    Pick a philosophy and stick to it.

    Government introduces a policy

    People raise concerns

    The government listens and amends the policy

    Isn’t that a good thing?
    You'd think.
    Why then did they sneak out the change in a Parliamentary written answer, rather than piblicly announcing it ?
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,359

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    The UK press is so biased against Labour, staying out of the papers is the best outcome a Labour leader can hope for.
    Yawn
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    The UK press is so biased against Labour, staying out of the papers is the best outcome a Labour leader can hope for.
    But the broadcast media isnt, and he avoids that too. Amdist all the fun of saying how crap the current government is - and they are crap - no-one is putting any scrutiny on what will replace them. The only positive from this is expectations wont be high but this will not be like 1997 with people who had an agenda it will be more like shuffling chairs at the parish council.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    Unlike GI Genocide.
    You're in danger of becoming the verbal equivalent of Steve Bell.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    Smart politics. You’ve gotten used to the ‘look at me’ ego driven politics pioneered by Boris. The trouble is that Sunak is still taking that approach, but is not very good at it. You’re probably yearning for Truss who had the balls to say what ever entered her brain.
    Well youre going through all your stock list of what people on the right of politics allegedly think. I didnt vote for Boris because I thought he was a tit. However since youre all about the policies perhaps you can point out what SKS actually are so they can be scrutinised.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,645
    DavidL said:

    Over 15GW of wind power again this morning after Orsted confirmed that they are proceeding with the Horsea 3 wind farm yesterday which will be the largest single windfarm in the world and should be on line by 2027. This is despite the cancellation of a number of major developments around the world with the company recognising and acknowledging that the policy structure in the UK made it attractive.

    Amongst all the populist blundering incompetence wind is something the UK has got broadly right.

    I don’t think I’ve seen this long a run of >15gw generation before: almost 4 days and running now. Isobars squeezed between a strong Northward displaced jet and European annticyclone. And a windy November. This quarter will surely easily beat the quarterly record.

    Here in Laon in Northern France where we arrived at 3am after a journey from “festive travel chaos” textbooks yesterday, it’s a little calmer and misty.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    Smart politics. You’ve gotten used to the ‘look at me’ ego driven politics pioneered by Boris. The trouble is that Sunak is still taking that approach, but is not very good at it. You’re probably yearning for Truss who had the balls to say what ever entered her brain.
    Well youre going through all your stock list of what people on the right of politics allegedly think. I didnt vote for Boris because I thought he was a tit. However since youre all about the policies perhaps you can point out what SKS actually are so they can be scrutinised.
    How retro. That’s the line Major rolled out in the 1990s and (for that matter) Brown rolled in the 2000s. Bless.
  • Options

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    The UK press is so biased against Labour, staying out of the papers is the best outcome a Labour leader can hope for.
    But the broadcast media isnt, and he avoids that too. Amdist all the fun of saying how crap the current government is - and they are crap - no-one is putting any scrutiny on what will replace them. The only positive from this is expectations wont be high but this will not be like 1997 with people who had an agenda it will be more like shuffling chairs at the parish council.
    I'm pretty sure I heard him being interviewed on the Today programme the other day.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631
    DavidL said:

    Over 15GW of wind power again this morning after Orsted confirmed that they are proceeding with the Horsea 3 wind farm yesterday which will be the largest single windfarm in the world and should be on line by 2027. This is despite the cancellation of a number of major developments around the world with the company recognising and acknowledging that the policy structure in the UK made it attractive.

    Amongst all the populist blundering incompetence wind is something the UK has got broadly right.

    It's a good illustration of a positive long term policy adopted and persisted with.

    Precious few of those.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,681
    DavidL said:

    Some rather disappointing and frankly unexpected revisals to GDP growth this morning which put us at risk of a technical recession: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67799713

    The weird thing is that the earnings data and the tax take from it both indicated that if anything economic activity was being underestimated, not over estimated. Curious.

    Not good news, as indeed neither were yesterday's higher than expected borrowing figures. The fall in inflation faster than expected was better news.

    The overall picture of the economy slowing was the plan behind the lower interest rates.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,308
    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    Over 15GW of wind power again this morning after Orsted confirmed that they are proceeding with the Horsea 3 wind farm yesterday which will be the largest single windfarm in the world and should be on line by 2027. This is despite the cancellation of a number of major developments around the world with the company recognising and acknowledging that the policy structure in the UK made it attractive.

    Amongst all the populist blundering incompetence wind is something the UK has got broadly right.

    I don’t think I’ve seen this long a run of >15gw generation before: almost 4 days and running now. Isobars squeezed between a strong Northward displaced jet and European annticyclone. And a windy November. This quarter will surely easily beat the quarterly record.

    Here in Laon in Northern France where we arrived at 3am after a journey from “festive travel chaos” textbooks yesterday, it’s a little calmer and misty.
    I think that this is a reflection of the additional capacity that has come on during the year as much as the weather, although storm Pia certainly seems to have helped. Hope you have a good break.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    Smart politics. You’ve gotten used to the ‘look at me’ ego driven politics pioneered by Boris. The trouble is that Sunak is still taking that approach, but is not very good at it. You’re probably yearning for Truss who had the balls to say what ever entered her brain.
    Well youre going through all your stock list of what people on the right of politics allegedly think. I didnt vote for Boris because I thought he was a tit. However since youre all about the policies perhaps you can point out what SKS actually are so they can be scrutinised.
    How retro. That’s the line Major rolled out in the 1990s and (for that matter) Brown rolled in the 2000s. Bless.
    LIfe's all retro atm or havent you noticed ? Cameron back, Mandy calling Labour's shots and Boris and Nigel putting the band back together. But however much you want to talk about the personalities you still cant show any policies. Policies policies polcies.

    It will simply be continuity Rishi without the helicopter jokes.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,681
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Over 15GW of wind power again this morning after Orsted confirmed that they are proceeding with the Horsea 3 wind farm yesterday which will be the largest single windfarm in the world and should be on line by 2027. This is despite the cancellation of a number of major developments around the world with the company recognising and acknowledging that the policy structure in the UK made it attractive.

    Amongst all the populist blundering incompetence wind is something the UK has got broadly right.

    It's a good illustration of a positive long term policy adopted and persisted with.

    Precious few of those.
    Ed Davey was a very effective minister:

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/mar/25/offshore-windfarms-vital-tensions-russia-ed-davey?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    The UK press is so biased against Labour, staying out of the papers is the best outcome a Labour leader can hope for.
    But the broadcast media isnt, and he avoids that too. Amdist all the fun of saying how crap the current government is - and they are crap - no-one is putting any scrutiny on what will replace them. The only positive from this is expectations wont be high but this will not be like 1997 with people who had an agenda it will be more like shuffling chairs at the parish council.
    I'm pretty sure I heard him being interviewed on the Today programme the other day.
    Thats simply hiding in plain sight. I understand the logic of not interrupting your opponent when hes making a mistake, but at some point SKS has to come out of the cupboard and make a few of his own.
  • Options

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Are there really that many people who think Starmer is great PM material, as opposed to "hopefully adequate, but even if he's mediocre that will be an unimaginable improvement on anything the Conservative Party has foisted on the public since at least 2019"?

    Vote Starmer, because he'll have to do.
  • Options

    Sunak nees to stop swinging both ways.

    Pick a philosophy and stick to it.

    Government introduces a policy

    People raise concerns

    The government listens and amends the policy

    Isn’t that a good thing?
    Well the policy answer now is imo a bit better than it was last week, sure.

    But from a political betting point of view, Sunak will have pissed off both those who want the threshold higher and lower and made them feel he is not on their side. He does this repeatedly. It is a big part of why he is unpopular as PM and quite different to how he acted as Chancellor where he, at least appeared, to have a fairly consistent and coherent plan, which made him popular.

  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    Smart politics. You’ve gotten used to the ‘look at me’ ego driven politics pioneered by Boris. The trouble is that Sunak is still taking that approach, but is not very good at it. You’re probably yearning for Truss who had the balls to say what ever entered her brain.
    Well youre going through all your stock list of what people on the right of politics allegedly think. I didnt vote for Boris because I thought he was a tit. However since youre all about the policies perhaps you can point out what SKS actually are so they can be scrutinised.
    How retro. That’s the line Major rolled out in the 1990s and (for that matter) Brown rolled in the 2000s. Bless.
    LIfe's all retro atm or havent you noticed ? Cameron back, Mandy calling Labour's shots and Boris and Nigel putting the band back together. But however much you want to talk about the personalities you still cant show any policies. Policies policies polcies.

    It will simply be continuity Rishi without the helicopter jokes.
    The irony about your points is that there are actually many reasons to criticise Starmer, but following a proven election strategy is not one of them, neither is avoiding headline grabbing gimmicks.

    I wish Labour was more aggressive. The Tories are getting off lightly for what they have done. It’s shameful . If the boot had been on the other foot, the Tories would have been remorseless.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Are there really that many people who think Starmer is great PM material, as opposed to "hopefully adequate, but even if he's mediocre that will be an unimaginable improvement on anything the Conservative Party has foisted on the public since at least 2019"?

    Vote Starmer, because he'll have to do.
    I did a fag packet Myers Briggs on both. I reckon Sunak is ESTJ and SKS is ESFJ, In effect both are technocrats and neither is a mover and shaker. I cant see there being much of a difference between them.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    The UK press is so biased against Labour, staying out of the papers is the best outcome a Labour leader can hope for.
    But the broadcast media isnt, and he avoids that too. Amdist all the fun of saying how crap the current government is - and they are crap - no-one is putting any scrutiny on what will replace them. The only positive from this is expectations wont be high but this will not be like 1997 with people who had an agenda it will be more like shuffling chairs at the parish council.
    Is that the case, or are Labour just being cautious as they develop their plans for government ?
    At this point you have no way of knowing that.

    There will be plenty of scrutiny once it becomes clearer when the election is going to be.
  • Options

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Are there really that many people who think Starmer is great PM material, as opposed to "hopefully adequate, but even if he's mediocre that will be an unimaginable improvement on anything the Conservative Party has foisted on the public since at least 2019"?

    Vote Starmer, because he'll have to do.
    There is indeed a fair chance of a bit of continuity crap from Starmer (hopefully not but could happen). But even that is both good and necessary because it gives the Tories a chance to start their journey back to sanity.
  • Options

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    The UK press is so biased against Labour, staying out of the papers is the best outcome a Labour leader can hope for.
    But the broadcast media isnt, and he avoids that too. Amdist all the fun of saying how crap the current government is - and they are crap - no-one is putting any scrutiny on what will replace them. The only positive from this is expectations wont be high but this will not be like 1997 with people who had an agenda it will be more like shuffling chairs at the parish council.
    I'm pretty sure I heard him being interviewed on the Today programme the other day.
    Thats simply hiding in plain sight. I understand the logic of not interrupting your opponent when hes making a mistake, but at some point SKS has to come out of the cupboard and make a few of his own.
    Ha ha. Starmer really can't win can he. If he isn't appearing in the media, he's hiding. If he does an interview with the BBC's flagship current affairs programme he's "hiding in plain sight".
    Remind me which party's leader refused to do an interview with Andrew Neil at the last election and then hid in a fridge to avoid another?
    Give me a break.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,462
    DavidL said:

    Over 15GW of wind power again this morning after Orsted confirmed that they are proceeding with the Horsea 3 wind farm yesterday which will be the largest single windfarm in the world and should be on line by 2027. This is despite the cancellation of a number of major developments around the world with the company recognising and acknowledging that the policy structure in the UK made it attractive.

    Amongst all the populist blundering incompetence wind is something the UK has got broadly right.

    If providing enpugh billpayers' cash get companies to chuck up windmills is, in and of itself, an inimpeachable virtue, yes, we've got it really right.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,462
    Sunak has to go. I vote Jake Berry for new leader and PM.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    Smart politics. You’ve gotten used to the ‘look at me’ ego driven politics pioneered by Boris. The trouble is that Sunak is still taking that approach, but is not very good at it. You’re probably yearning for Truss who had the balls to say what ever entered her brain.
    Well youre going through all your stock list of what people on the right of politics allegedly think. I didnt vote for Boris because I thought he was a tit. However since youre all about the policies perhaps you can point out what SKS actually are so they can be scrutinised.
    How retro. That’s the line Major rolled out in the 1990s and (for that matter) Brown rolled in the 2000s. Bless.
    LIfe's all retro atm or havent you noticed ? Cameron back, Mandy calling Labour's shots and Boris and Nigel putting the band back together. But however much you want to talk about the personalities you still cant show any policies. Policies policies polcies.

    It will simply be continuity Rishi without the helicopter jokes.
    The irony about your points is that there are actually many reasons to criticise Starmer, but following a proven election strategy is not one of them, neither is avoiding headline grabbing gimmicks.

    I wish Labour was more aggressive. The Tories are getting off lightly for what they have done. It’s shameful . If the boot had been on the other foot, the Tories would have been remorseless.
    Theres a differnce between an election strategy and having a plan for government. Currently we are living through the script of The Candidate with neither party sure what to do next.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,308

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    Smart politics. You’ve gotten used to the ‘look at me’ ego driven politics pioneered by Boris. The trouble is that Sunak is still taking that approach, but is not very good at it. You’re probably yearning for Truss who had the balls to say what ever entered her brain.
    Well youre going through all your stock list of what people on the right of politics allegedly think. I didnt vote for Boris because I thought he was a tit. However since youre all about the policies perhaps you can point out what SKS actually are so they can be scrutinised.
    How retro. That’s the line Major rolled out in the 1990s and (for that matter) Brown rolled in the 2000s. Bless.
    LIfe's all retro atm or havent you noticed ? Cameron back, Mandy calling Labour's shots and Boris and Nigel putting the band back together. But however much you want to talk about the personalities you still cant show any policies. Policies policies polcies.

    It will simply be continuity Rishi without the helicopter jokes.
    Well that's at least something.
  • Options
    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,442

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Are there really that many people who think Starmer is great PM material, as opposed to "hopefully adequate, but even if he's mediocre that will be an unimaginable improvement on anything the Conservative Party has foisted on the public since at least 2019"?

    Vote Starmer, because he'll have to do.
    We need a UK remake of that spoof Biden campaign vid - perfectly acceptable under the circumstances :smile:
  • Options
    NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,347
    Do people really believe the nonsense that they write on here about how terrible life currently is in the UK?
    As yesterdays thread demonstrated why not give South Africa a go and compare and contrast
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,002

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    Smart politics. You’ve gotten used to the ‘look at me’ ego driven politics pioneered by Boris. The trouble is that Sunak is still taking that approach, but is not very good at it. You’re probably yearning for Truss who had the balls to say what ever entered her brain.
    Well youre going through all your stock list of what people on the right of politics allegedly think. I didnt vote for Boris because I thought he was a tit. However since youre all about the policies perhaps you can point out what SKS actually are so they can be scrutinised.
    How retro. That’s the line Major rolled out in the 1990s and (for that matter) Brown rolled in the 2000s. Bless.
    LIfe's all retro atm or havent you noticed ? Cameron back, Mandy calling Labour's shots and Boris and Nigel putting the band back together. But however much you want to talk about the personalities you still cant show any policies. Policies policies polcies.

    It will simply be continuity Rishi without the helicopter jokes.
    The irony about your points is that there are actually many reasons to criticise Starmer, but following a proven election strategy is not one of them, neither is avoiding headline grabbing gimmicks.

    I wish Labour was more aggressive. The Tories are getting off lightly for what they have done. It’s shameful . If the boot had been on the other foot, the Tories would have been remorseless.
    Theres a differnce between an election strategy and having a plan for government. Currently we are living through the script of The Candidate with neither party sure what to do next.
    Good morning one and all.
    As a left leaning voter, I’m normally disinclined to agree with Alanbrooke but on this occasion I have to. I still think the next election will be in January 2025, but I realise I’m in a minority. If I am, it is surely high time that we had some definition in policies from the major contenders.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756
    Fffs said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Are there really that many people who think Starmer is great PM material, as opposed to "hopefully adequate, but even if he's mediocre that will be an unimaginable improvement on anything the Conservative Party has foisted on the public since at least 2019"?

    Vote Starmer, because he'll have to do.
    I did a fag packet Myers Briggs on both. I reckon Sunak is ESTJ and SKS is ESFJ, In effect both are technocrats and neither is a mover and shaker. I cant see there being much of a difference between them.
    1) MBTI is about personal preference. You can't do one for someone else
    2) It's also absolute horseshit. Horoscopy for management consultants.
    Actually not at all , any time Ive sat one its been pretty close to how I am. As for guessing on other people it has its flaws, but you can get a feel for if someone is an extrovert or an introvert etc. Its not accurate but its a fun parlour game.
  • Options
    He’s an idiot. He’s given a happy to all the “send the foreigners home” morons and then pulls back and upsets them. Is he trying to send the hard right to ReFUK?
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    The UK press is so biased against Labour, staying out of the papers is the best outcome a Labour leader can hope for.
    But the broadcast media isnt, and he avoids that too. Amdist all the fun of saying how crap the current government is - and they are crap - no-one is putting any scrutiny on what will replace them. The only positive from this is expectations wont be high but this will not be like 1997 with people who had an agenda it will be more like shuffling chairs at the parish council.
    I'm pretty sure I heard him being interviewed on the Today programme the other day.
    Thats simply hiding in plain sight. I understand the logic of not interrupting your opponent when hes making a mistake, but at some point SKS has to come out of the cupboard and make a few of his own.
    Ha ha. Starmer really can't win can he. If he isn't appearing in the media, he's hiding. If he does an interview with the BBC's flagship current affairs programme he's "hiding in plain sight".
    Remind me which party's leader refused to do an interview with Andrew Neil at the last election and then hid in a fridge to avoid another?
    Give me a break.
    Well why should he win ? No other politician can either, part of the job is upsetting people and seeing how they handle it. SKS is simply doing what Boris did but in a more refined way.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631
    edited December 2023

    DavidL said:

    Over 15GW of wind power again this morning after Orsted confirmed that they are proceeding with the Horsea 3 wind farm yesterday which will be the largest single windfarm in the world and should be on line by 2027. This is despite the cancellation of a number of major developments around the world with the company recognising and acknowledging that the policy structure in the UK made it attractive.

    Amongst all the populist blundering incompetence wind is something the UK has got broadly right.

    If providing enpugh billpayers' cash get companies to chuck up windmills is, in and of itself, an inimpeachable virtue, yes, we've got it really right.
    What you're criticising is the failure to build sufficient grid capacity.
    But that will come, even it's slower than it should be.

    Another thing the last decade of Tory government could have done better.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756
    DavidL said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    Smart politics. You’ve gotten used to the ‘look at me’ ego driven politics pioneered by Boris. The trouble is that Sunak is still taking that approach, but is not very good at it. You’re probably yearning for Truss who had the balls to say what ever entered her brain.
    Well youre going through all your stock list of what people on the right of politics allegedly think. I didnt vote for Boris because I thought he was a tit. However since youre all about the policies perhaps you can point out what SKS actually are so they can be scrutinised.
    How retro. That’s the line Major rolled out in the 1990s and (for that matter) Brown rolled in the 2000s. Bless.
    LIfe's all retro atm or havent you noticed ? Cameron back, Mandy calling Labour's shots and Boris and Nigel putting the band back together. But however much you want to talk about the personalities you still cant show any policies. Policies policies polcies.

    It will simply be continuity Rishi without the helicopter jokes.
    Well that's at least something.
    Yes, we can have the same crap as before only well be making Vickie Pollard jokes with Starmer.
  • Options

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    The UK press is so biased against Labour, staying out of the papers is the best outcome a Labour leader can hope for.
    But the broadcast media isnt, and he avoids that too. Amdist all the fun of saying how crap the current government is - and they are crap - no-one is putting any scrutiny on what will replace them. The only positive from this is expectations wont be high but this will not be like 1997 with people who had an agenda it will be more like shuffling chairs at the parish council.
    I'm pretty sure I heard him being interviewed on the Today programme the other day.
    Thats simply hiding in plain sight. I understand the logic of not interrupting your opponent when hes making a mistake, but at some point SKS has to come out of the cupboard and make a few of his own.
    Ha ha. Starmer really can't win can he. If he isn't appearing in the media, he's hiding. If he does an interview with the BBC's flagship current affairs programme he's "hiding in plain sight".
    Remind me which party's leader refused to do an interview with Andrew Neil at the last election and then hid in a fridge to avoid another?
    Give me a break.
    Well why should he win ? No other politician can either, part of the job is upsetting people and seeing how they handle it. SKS is simply doing what Boris did but in a more refined way.
    Yes Starmer doing an interview is entirely like Johnson not doing one. Going on the radio is just like hiding in a fridge. Black is white. Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia. There are no American tanks in Baghdad.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631
    .

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    Smart politics. You’ve gotten used to the ‘look at me’ ego driven politics pioneered by Boris. The trouble is that Sunak is still taking that approach, but is not very good at it. You’re probably yearning for Truss who had the balls to say what ever entered her brain.
    Well youre going through all your stock list of what people on the right of politics allegedly think. I didnt vote for Boris because I thought he was a tit. However since youre all about the policies perhaps you can point out what SKS actually are so they can be scrutinised.
    How retro. That’s the line Major rolled out in the 1990s and (for that matter) Brown rolled in the 2000s. Bless.
    LIfe's all retro atm or havent you noticed ? Cameron back, Mandy calling Labour's shots and Boris and Nigel putting the band back together. But however much you want to talk about the personalities you still cant show any policies. Policies policies polcies.

    It will simply be continuity Rishi without the helicopter jokes.
    The irony about your points is that there are actually many reasons to criticise Starmer, but following a proven election strategy is not one of them, neither is avoiding headline grabbing gimmicks.

    I wish Labour was more aggressive. The Tories are getting off lightly for what they have done. It’s shameful . If the boot had been on the other foot, the Tories would have been remorseless.
    Theres a differnce between an election strategy and having a plan for government. Currently we are living through the script of The Candidate with neither party sure what to do next.
    Good morning one and all.
    As a left leaning voter, I’m normally disinclined to agree with Alanbrooke but on this occasion I have to. I still think the next election will be in January 2025, but I realise I’m in a minority. If I am, it is surely high time that we had some definition in policies from the major contenders.
    If the election is to be so long delayed, why would you agree about the lack of Labour plans ?
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    The UK press is so biased against Labour, staying out of the papers is the best outcome a Labour leader can hope for.
    But the broadcast media isnt, and he avoids that too. Amdist all the fun of saying how crap the current government is - and they are crap - no-one is putting any scrutiny on what will replace them. The only positive from this is expectations wont be high but this will not be like 1997 with people who had an agenda it will be more like shuffling chairs at the parish council.
    I'm pretty sure I heard him being interviewed on the Today programme the other day.
    Thats simply hiding in plain sight. I understand the logic of not interrupting your opponent when hes making a mistake, but at some point SKS has to come out of the cupboard and make a few of his own.
    Ha ha. Starmer really can't win can he. If he isn't appearing in the media, he's hiding. If he does an interview with the BBC's flagship current affairs programme he's "hiding in plain sight".
    Remind me which party's leader refused to do an interview with Andrew Neil at the last election and then hid in a fridge to avoid another?
    Give me a break.
    Well why should he win ? No other politician can either, part of the job is upsetting people and seeing how they handle it. SKS is simply doing what Boris did but in a more refined way.
    Yes Starmer doing an interview is entirely like Johnson not doing one. Going on the radio is just like hiding in a fridge. Black is white. Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia. There are no American tanks in Baghdad.
    one small interview doesnt make for a raised profile.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    Smart politics. You’ve gotten used to the ‘look at me’ ego driven politics pioneered by Boris. The trouble is that Sunak is still taking that approach, but is not very good at it. You’re probably yearning for Truss who had the balls to say what ever entered her brain.
    Well youre going through all your stock list of what people on the right of politics allegedly think. I didnt vote for Boris because I thought he was a tit. However since youre all about the policies perhaps you can point out what SKS actually are so they can be scrutinised.
    How retro. That’s the line Major rolled out in the 1990s and (for that matter) Brown rolled in the 2000s. Bless.
    LIfe's all retro atm or havent you noticed ? Cameron back, Mandy calling Labour's shots and Boris and Nigel putting the band back together. But however much you want to talk about the personalities you still cant show any policies. Policies policies polcies.

    It will simply be continuity Rishi without the helicopter jokes.
    The irony about your points is that there are actually many reasons to criticise Starmer, but following a proven election strategy is not one of them, neither is avoiding headline grabbing gimmicks.

    I wish Labour was more aggressive. The Tories are getting off lightly for what they have done. It’s shameful . If the boot had been on the other foot, the Tories would have been remorseless.
    Theres a differnce between an election strategy and having a plan for government. Currently we are living through the script of The Candidate with neither party sure what to do next.
    I can understand why you want to push that narrative, but for now it's just hot air.

    Only one of the parties is in government.

    As fur 'no plans', we've had this discussion before, and I can't be bothered to rehearse all over again the stuff Labour has already talked about.
    As you're clearly not arguing in good faith.
  • Options

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    I had an interesting evening in the pub yesterday with old friends from university. Two objected to Starmer as you did - an empty suit. The guy on the left increasingly frustrated that Starmer isn’t Corbyn (I know, I know…)

    Point was that even though they listed where Starmer is deficient, they recognise and call out that Sunak and the Tories are *more* deficient.

    Even the “Labour will break the economy” line which has reinforced Tory votes before doesn’t work. The guy who was a 2019 Tory won’t vote for them in fear of what Labour might do, because whatever that is he is living the reality of what the Tories are already doing.

    “I want to be able to afford to pay my bills” is a big motivator, even if you aren’t convinced the alternative will be much better. If a bit better is enough to keep you afloat, that will do. And that’s millions on millions of voters…
  • Options

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Are there really that many people who think Starmer is great PM material, as opposed to "hopefully adequate, but even if he's mediocre that will be an unimaginable improvement on anything the Conservative Party has foisted on the public since at least 2019"?

    Vote Starmer, because he'll have to do.
    I did a fag packet Myers Briggs on both. I reckon Sunak is ESTJ and SKS is ESFJ, In effect both are technocrats and neither is a mover and shaker. I cant see there being much of a difference between them.

    Thing is, there are better and worse ways of being a technocratic leader. It's about leaning into your strengths and being realistic about your limits.

    (When I teach, or have to manage stuff, it's something I have to be really careful about as a massive introvert. When to channel what little extrovert energy I truly have, when to fake it, when to hide away and decompress. Somewhat different scenario, but similar principle, I suspect.)

    And I suspect Sunak's big problem isn't that he's a technocrat, but that he's a rubbish one. Secretive planning followed by a big splash isn't great, but I think we'd all accept if if the splash was good and carried through. Trouble is that Sunak's secrecy is followed by a plan that doesn't work. Starmer, on the other hand, has somehow managed to get his enemies to impale themselves on daggers without much intervention from Starmer himself.

    Given a binary choice, and that's all most of us have, I know which one I prefer.

  • Options
    Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 595
    Ghedebrav said:

    Remember Rishi’s Razor:

    Sunak Is Crap At Politics.

    How else can you possibly explain the insane timeline of HS2 under Rishi, from announcing the project’s cancellation in its *key terminus city*, to then spending the earmarked money in London, a city with by some distance the best-funded transport infrastructure in the country.

    This salary threshold is another example. Rwanda is another.

    Please please please can we have a general election ASAP?

    Rishi's razor? He doesnt look old enough to need to shave....
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,681

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    The UK press is so biased against Labour, staying out of the papers is the best outcome a Labour leader can hope for.
    But the broadcast media isnt, and he avoids that too. Amdist all the fun of saying how crap the current government is - and they are crap - no-one is putting any scrutiny on what will replace them. The only positive from this is expectations wont be high but this will not be like 1997 with people who had an agenda it will be more like shuffling chairs at the parish council.
    I'm pretty sure I heard him being interviewed on the Today programme the other day.
    Thats simply hiding in plain sight. I understand the logic of not interrupting your opponent when hes making a mistake, but at some point SKS has to come out of the cupboard and make a few of his own.
    Ha ha. Starmer really can't win can he. If he isn't appearing in the media, he's hiding. If he does an interview with the BBC's flagship current affairs programme he's "hiding in plain sight".
    Remind me which party's leader refused to do an interview with Andrew Neil at the last election and then hid in a fridge to avoid another?
    Give me a break.
    Well why should he win ? No other politician can either, part of the job is upsetting people and seeing how they handle it. SKS is simply doing what Boris did but in a more refined way.
    Yes Starmer doing an interview is entirely like Johnson not doing one. Going on the radio is just like hiding in a fridge. Black is white. Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia. There are no American tanks in Baghdad.
    One characteristic of politicians is that the more we see of them, the less we like them. Sunaks polling goes up when parliament isn't sitting and he is not doing photo ops etc.

    Clearly that becomes problematic during a campaign, but Starmer has mastered the non-appearance appearance. He does the interview but says nothing of interest. Box ticked on appearing, but nothing to annoy voters. Sheer genius.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756
    Nigelb said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    Smart politics. You’ve gotten used to the ‘look at me’ ego driven politics pioneered by Boris. The trouble is that Sunak is still taking that approach, but is not very good at it. You’re probably yearning for Truss who had the balls to say what ever entered her brain.
    Well youre going through all your stock list of what people on the right of politics allegedly think. I didnt vote for Boris because I thought he was a tit. However since youre all about the policies perhaps you can point out what SKS actually are so they can be scrutinised.
    How retro. That’s the line Major rolled out in the 1990s and (for that matter) Brown rolled in the 2000s. Bless.
    LIfe's all retro atm or havent you noticed ? Cameron back, Mandy calling Labour's shots and Boris and Nigel putting the band back together. But however much you want to talk about the personalities you still cant show any policies. Policies policies polcies.

    It will simply be continuity Rishi without the helicopter jokes.
    The irony about your points is that there are actually many reasons to criticise Starmer, but following a proven election strategy is not one of them, neither is avoiding headline grabbing gimmicks.

    I wish Labour was more aggressive. The Tories are getting off lightly for what they have done. It’s shameful . If the boot had been on the other foot, the Tories would have been remorseless.
    Theres a differnce between an election strategy and having a plan for government. Currently we are living through the script of The Candidate with neither party sure what to do next.
    I can understand why you want to push that narrative, but for now it's just hot air.

    Only one of the parties is in government.

    As fur 'no plans', we've had this discussion before, and I can't be bothered to rehearse all over again the stuff Labour has already talked about.
    As you're clearly not arguing in good faith.
    No I think the explanation is Im not as easily palmed off as you are. You like to go with the spin I expect some meat on the bone.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,002
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    Smart politics. You’ve gotten used to the ‘look at me’ ego driven politics pioneered by Boris. The trouble is that Sunak is still taking that approach, but is not very good at it. You’re probably yearning for Truss who had the balls to say what ever entered her brain.
    Well youre going through all your stock list of what people on the right of politics allegedly think. I didnt vote for Boris because I thought he was a tit. However since youre all about the policies perhaps you can point out what SKS actually are so they can be scrutinised.
    How retro. That’s the line Major rolled out in the 1990s and (for that matter) Brown rolled in the 2000s. Bless.
    LIfe's all retro atm or havent you noticed ? Cameron back, Mandy calling Labour's shots and Boris and Nigel putting the band back together. But however much you want to talk about the personalities you still cant show any policies. Policies policies polcies.

    It will simply be continuity Rishi without the helicopter jokes.
    The irony about your points is that there are actually many reasons to criticise Starmer, but following a proven election strategy is not one of them, neither is avoiding headline grabbing gimmicks.

    I wish Labour was more aggressive. The Tories are getting off lightly for what they have done. It’s shameful . If the boot had been on the other foot, the Tories would have been remorseless.
    Theres a differnce between an election strategy and having a plan for government. Currently we are living through the script of The Candidate with neither party sure what to do next.
    Good morning one and all.
    As a left leaning voter, I’m normally disinclined to agree with Alanbrooke but on this occasion I have to. I still think the next election will be in January 2025, but I realise I’m in a minority. If I am, it is surely high time that we had some definition in policies from the major contenders.
    If the election is to be so long delayed, why would you agree about the lack of Labour plans ?
    I seem to recall a bit more definition from Thatcher, Blair and Cameron a year out. Wilson in ‘74 was less definite, but no-one expected Heath to cut and run the way he did.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    I had an interesting evening in the pub yesterday with old friends from university. Two objected to Starmer as you did - an empty suit. The guy on the left increasingly frustrated that Starmer isn’t Corbyn (I know, I know…)

    Point was that even though they listed where Starmer is deficient, they recognise and call out that Sunak and the Tories are *more* deficient.

    Even the “Labour will break the economy” line which has reinforced Tory votes before doesn’t work. The guy who was a 2019 Tory won’t vote for them in fear of what Labour might do, because whatever that is he is living the reality of what the Tories are already doing.

    “I want to be able to afford to pay my bills” is a big motivator, even if you aren’t convinced the alternative will be much better. If a bit better is enough to keep you afloat, that will do. And that’s millions on millions of voters…
    I cant see much difference between Sunak and Starmer which is why Im fairly relaxed about a Labour government. My main irritation is that it will be another wasted decade with more of the same failed policies.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Are there really that many people who think Starmer is great PM material, as opposed to "hopefully adequate, but even if he's mediocre that will be an unimaginable improvement on anything the Conservative Party has foisted on the public since at least 2019"?

    Vote Starmer, because he'll have to do.
    I did a fag packet Myers Briggs on both. I reckon Sunak is ESTJ and SKS is ESFJ, In effect both are technocrats and neither is a mover and shaker. I cant see there being much of a difference between them.

    Thing is, there are better and worse ways of being a technocratic leader. It's about leaning into your strengths and being realistic about your limits.

    (When I teach, or have to manage stuff, it's something I have to be really careful about as a massive introvert. When to channel what little extrovert energy I truly have, when to fake it, when to hide away and decompress. Somewhat different scenario, but similar principle, I suspect.)

    And I suspect Sunak's big problem isn't that he's a technocrat, but that he's a rubbish one. Secretive planning followed by a big splash isn't great, but I think we'd all accept if if the splash was good and carried through. Trouble is that Sunak's secrecy is followed by a plan that doesn't work. Starmer, on the other hand, has somehow managed to get his enemies to impale themselves on daggers without much intervention from Starmer himself.

    Given a binary choice, and that's all most of us have, I know which one I prefer.

    I agree with most of that, technocrats can be good if they know what they are seeking to achieve. Bu neither Sunak or Starmer do.

    Im afraid its cometh the hour and weve got the wrong men.

    Anyway I have to sort out some stuff with my Germans before they all go on holiday. Have a good morning.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,148

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    I had an interesting evening in the pub yesterday with old friends from university. Two objected to Starmer as you did - an empty suit. The guy on the left increasingly frustrated that Starmer isn’t Corbyn (I know, I know…)

    Point was that even though they listed where Starmer is deficient, they recognise and call out that Sunak and the Tories are *more* deficient.

    Even the “Labour will break the economy” line which has reinforced Tory votes before doesn’t work. The guy who was a 2019 Tory won’t vote for them in fear of what Labour might do, because whatever that is he is living the reality of what the Tories are already doing.

    “I want to be able to afford to pay my bills” is a big motivator, even if you aren’t convinced the alternative will be much better. If a bit better is enough to keep you afloat, that will do. And that’s millions on millions of voters…
    I cant see much difference between Sunak and Starmer which is why Im fairly relaxed about a Labour government. My main irritation is that it will be another wasted decade with more of the same failed policies.
    If talking about Starmer is you relaxed I’d hate to see you wound up.
  • Options
    ajbajb Posts: 122
    edited December 2023

    Sunak nees to stop swinging both ways.

    Pick a philosophy and stick to it.

    Government introduces a policy

    People raise concerns

    The government listens and amends the policy

    Isn’t that a good thing?
    Compared to the rhetoric when the policy was announced this a climbdown.

    As the tweets point out he's pissed off everybody.
    Why should I care whether it’s a climbdown or not? It’s outcomes that matter

    You think this government is even trying for an outcome? They are just trying to scrape the appearance of one long enough to save a few MPs.

    The threshold rise is just another attempt at their favourite trick, trying to get people to mistake cruelty for competence, like the Rwanda scheme.If they bash someone hard enough, surely there must be a good reason and they must be serious people, because surely government ministers wouldn't be this cruel just to save their arses. Except they very much would.

    And Sunak is so incompetent that he's making it obvious.
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    The UK press is so biased against Labour, staying out of the papers is the best outcome a Labour leader can hope for.
    But the broadcast media isnt, and he avoids that too. Amdist all the fun of saying how crap the current government is - and they are crap - no-one is putting any scrutiny on what will replace them. The only positive from this is expectations wont be high but this will not be like 1997 with people who had an agenda it will be more like shuffling chairs at the parish council.
    I'm pretty sure I heard him being interviewed on the Today programme the other day.
    Thats simply hiding in plain sight. I understand the logic of not interrupting your opponent when hes making a mistake, but at some point SKS has to come out of the cupboard and make a few of his own.
    Ha ha. Starmer really can't win can he. If he isn't appearing in the media, he's hiding. If he does an interview with the BBC's flagship current affairs programme he's "hiding in plain sight".
    Remind me which party's leader refused to do an interview with Andrew Neil at the last election and then hid in a fridge to avoid another?
    Give me a break.
    Well why should he win ? No other politician can either, part of the job is upsetting people and seeing how they handle it. SKS is simply doing what Boris did but in a more refined way.
    Yes Starmer doing an interview is entirely like Johnson not doing one. Going on the radio is just like hiding in a fridge. Black is white. Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia. There are no American tanks in Baghdad.
    One characteristic of politicians is that the more we see of them, the less we like them. Sunaks polling goes up when parliament isn't sitting and he is not doing photo ops etc.

    Clearly that becomes problematic during a campaign, but Starmer has mastered the non-appearance appearance. He does the interview but says nothing of interest. Box ticked on appearing, but nothing to annoy voters. Sheer genius.
    Isn't this just another example of people underestimating Starmer's skills as a politician? Folk on here seem to be criticising him for mastering the art of not annoying the voters. Surely that's a point in his favour?
    I say this BTW as someone who was not massively enthusiastic about the man. I didn't vote for him to be leader. But in today's world of negative politics if you can show up and not piss people off I think you're winning.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631
    Incidentally, what's happening with the Cabinet Secretary ?
  • Options

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    I had an interesting evening in the pub yesterday with old friends from university. Two objected to Starmer as you did - an empty suit. The guy on the left increasingly frustrated that Starmer isn’t Corbyn (I know, I know…)

    Point was that even though they listed where Starmer is deficient, they recognise and call out that Sunak and the Tories are *more* deficient.

    Even the “Labour will break the economy” line which has reinforced Tory votes before doesn’t work. The guy who was a 2019 Tory won’t vote for them in fear of what Labour might do, because whatever that is he is living the reality of what the Tories are already doing.

    “I want to be able to afford to pay my bills” is a big motivator, even if you aren’t convinced the alternative will be much better. If a bit better is enough to keep you afloat, that will do. And that’s millions on millions of voters…
    I cant see much difference between Sunak and Starmer which is why Im fairly relaxed about a Labour government. My main irritation is that it will be another wasted decade with more of the same failed policies.
    Then the people to be really annoyed with are Johnson and Truss, who between them pretty much exhausted the public appetite for radical change. Because even if their ambitions were right, their implementations were hopeless (Johnson through personal indulgence and dishonesty, Truss through ignoring the risks side of her risk:benefit calculations), so that approach is going to be toxic for years.
  • Options

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    I had an interesting evening in the pub yesterday with old friends from university. Two objected to Starmer as you did - an empty suit. The guy on the left increasingly frustrated that Starmer isn’t Corbyn (I know, I know…)

    Point was that even though they listed where Starmer is deficient, they recognise and call out that Sunak and the Tories are *more* deficient.

    Even the “Labour will break the economy” line which has reinforced Tory votes before doesn’t work. The guy who was a 2019 Tory won’t vote for them in fear of what Labour might do, because whatever that is he is living the reality of what the Tories are already doing.

    “I want to be able to afford to pay my bills” is a big motivator, even if you aren’t convinced the alternative will be much better. If a bit better is enough to keep you afloat, that will do. And that’s millions on millions of voters…
    I cant see much difference between Sunak and Starmer which is why Im fairly relaxed about a Labour government. My main irritation is that it will be another wasted decade with more of the same failed policies.
    I get that. But when Labour propose policies people like you say “they have no policies”. And then claim the policies they have would be terrible.

    Starmer wants to win. So being bland to ensure that people are “fairly relaxed about a Labour government “ is precisely what he wants
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631

    Nigelb said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    Smart politics. You’ve gotten used to the ‘look at me’ ego driven politics pioneered by Boris. The trouble is that Sunak is still taking that approach, but is not very good at it. You’re probably yearning for Truss who had the balls to say what ever entered her brain.
    Well youre going through all your stock list of what people on the right of politics allegedly think. I didnt vote for Boris because I thought he was a tit. However since youre all about the policies perhaps you can point out what SKS actually are so they can be scrutinised.
    How retro. That’s the line Major rolled out in the 1990s and (for that matter) Brown rolled in the 2000s. Bless.
    LIfe's all retro atm or havent you noticed ? Cameron back, Mandy calling Labour's shots and Boris and Nigel putting the band back together. But however much you want to talk about the personalities you still cant show any policies. Policies policies polcies.

    It will simply be continuity Rishi without the helicopter jokes.
    The irony about your points is that there are actually many reasons to criticise Starmer, but following a proven election strategy is not one of them, neither is avoiding headline grabbing gimmicks.

    I wish Labour was more aggressive. The Tories are getting off lightly for what they have done. It’s shameful . If the boot had been on the other foot, the Tories would have been remorseless.
    Theres a differnce between an election strategy and having a plan for government. Currently we are living through the script of The Candidate with neither party sure what to do next.
    I can understand why you want to push that narrative, but for now it's just hot air.

    Only one of the parties is in government.

    As fur 'no plans', we've had this discussion before, and I can't be bothered to rehearse all over again the stuff Labour has already talked about.
    As you're clearly not arguing in good faith.
    No I think the explanation is Im not as easily palmed off as you are. You like to go with the spin I expect some meat on the bone.
    Do I indeed ?
    Your personality assessments are as convincing as your arguments.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,430
    edited December 2023

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    The UK press is so biased against Labour, staying out of the papers is the best outcome a Labour leader can hope for.
    But the broadcast media isnt, and he avoids that too. Amdist all the fun of saying how crap the current government is - and they are crap - no-one is putting any scrutiny on what will replace them. The only positive from this is expectations wont be high but this will not be like 1997 with people who had an agenda it will be more like shuffling chairs at the parish council.
    I'm pretty sure I heard him being interviewed on the Today programme the other day.
    Thats simply hiding in plain sight. I understand the logic of not interrupting your opponent when hes making a mistake, but at some point SKS has to come out of the cupboard and make a few of his own.
    Ha ha. Starmer really can't win can he. If he isn't appearing in the media, he's hiding. If he does an interview with the BBC's flagship current affairs programme he's "hiding in plain sight".
    Remind me which party's leader refused to do an interview with Andrew Neil at the last election and then hid in a fridge to avoid another?
    Give me a break.
    Well why should he win ? No other politician can either, part of the job is upsetting people and seeing how they handle it. SKS is simply doing what Boris did but in a more refined way.
    Yes Starmer doing an interview is entirely like Johnson not doing one. Going on the radio is just like hiding in a fridge. Black is white. Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia. There are no American tanks in Baghdad.
    One characteristic of politicians is that the more we see of them, the less we like them. Sunaks polling goes up when parliament isn't sitting and he is not doing photo ops etc.

    Clearly that becomes problematic during a campaign, but Starmer has mastered the non-appearance appearance. He does the interview but says nothing of interest. Box ticked on appearing, but nothing to annoy voters. Sheer genius.
    Isn't this just another example of people underestimating Starmer's skills as a politician? Folk on here seem to be criticising him for mastering the art of not annoying the voters. Surely that's a point in his favour?
    I say this BTW as someone who was not massively enthusiastic about the man. I didn't vote for him to be leader. But in today's world of negative politics if you can show up and not piss people off I think you're winning.
    But in today's world of negative politics if you can show up and not piss people off, if you are massively in the lead, I think you're winning.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,681
    edited December 2023

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    I had an interesting evening in the pub yesterday with old friends from university. Two objected to Starmer as you did - an empty suit. The guy on the left increasingly frustrated that Starmer isn’t Corbyn (I know, I know…)

    Point was that even though they listed where Starmer is deficient, they recognise and call out that Sunak and the Tories are *more* deficient.

    Even the “Labour will break the economy” line which has reinforced Tory votes before doesn’t work. The guy who was a 2019 Tory won’t vote for them in fear of what Labour might do, because whatever that is he is living the reality of what the Tories are already doing.

    “I want to be able to afford to pay my bills” is a big motivator, even if you aren’t convinced the alternative will be much better. If a bit better is enough to keep you afloat, that will do. And that’s millions on millions of voters…
    I cant see much difference between Sunak and Starmer which is why Im fairly relaxed about a Labour government. My main irritation is that it will be another wasted decade with more of the same failed policies.
    The reason that the last decade was wasted was the dead end of Brexit.

    Neither being in or out of the EU prevented us from addressing the real problems of our economy and society. Hence the Red Wall and Blue Wall both being annoyed. There are only so many dead cats that can be thrown on the table.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631
    edited December 2023
    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    I had an interesting evening in the pub yesterday with old friends from university. Two objected to Starmer as you did - an empty suit. The guy on the left increasingly frustrated that Starmer isn’t Corbyn (I know, I know…)

    Point was that even though they listed where Starmer is deficient, they recognise and call out that Sunak and the Tories are *more* deficient.

    Even the “Labour will break the economy” line which has reinforced Tory votes before doesn’t work. The guy who was a 2019 Tory won’t vote for them in fear of what Labour might do, because whatever that is he is living the reality of what the Tories are already doing.

    “I want to be able to afford to pay my bills” is a big motivator, even if you aren’t convinced the alternative will be much better. If a bit better is enough to keep you afloat, that will do. And that’s millions on millions of voters…
    I cant see much difference between Sunak and Starmer which is why Im fairly relaxed about a Labour government. My main irritation is that it will be another wasted decade with more of the same failed policies.
    The reason that the last decade was wasted was the dead end of Brexit.

    Neither being in or out of the EU prevented us from addressing the real problems of our economy and society. Hence the Red Wall and Blue Wall both being annoyed. There are only so many deat cats that can be thrown on the table.
    And how did Alanbrooke vote on that ?
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    I had an interesting evening in the pub yesterday with old friends from university. Two objected to Starmer as you did - an empty suit. The guy on the left increasingly frustrated that Starmer isn’t Corbyn (I know, I know…)

    Point was that even though they listed where Starmer is deficient, they recognise and call out that Sunak and the Tories are *more* deficient.

    Even the “Labour will break the economy” line which has reinforced Tory votes before doesn’t work. The guy who was a 2019 Tory won’t vote for them in fear of what Labour might do, because whatever that is he is living the reality of what the Tories are already doing.

    “I want to be able to afford to pay my bills” is a big motivator, even if you aren’t convinced the alternative will be much better. If a bit better is enough to keep you afloat, that will do. And that’s millions on millions of voters…
    I cant see much difference between Sunak and Starmer which is why Im fairly relaxed about a Labour government. My main irritation is that it will be another wasted decade with more of the same failed policies.
    The reason that the last decade was wasted was the dead end of Brexit.

    Neither being in or out of the EU prevented us from addressing the real problems of our economy and society. Hence the Red Wall and Blue Wall both being annoyed. There are only so many deat cats that can be thrown on the table.
    Few people want the real problem being addressed.

    Because the real problem is that this country has for far too long lived beyond its means.

    Which means that at some point living standards have to fall for most people.

    And the longer this is delayed the harder the change will be.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,681
    edited December 2023

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    The UK press is so biased against Labour, staying out of the papers is the best outcome a Labour leader can hope for.
    But the broadcast media isnt, and he avoids that too. Amdist all the fun of saying how crap the current government is - and they are crap - no-one is putting any scrutiny on what will replace them. The only positive from this is expectations wont be high but this will not be like 1997 with people who had an agenda it will be more like shuffling chairs at the parish council.
    I'm pretty sure I heard him being interviewed on the Today programme the other day.
    Thats simply hiding in plain sight. I understand the logic of not interrupting your opponent when hes making a mistake, but at some point SKS has to come out of the cupboard and make a few of his own.
    Ha ha. Starmer really can't win can he. If he isn't appearing in the media, he's hiding. If he does an interview with the BBC's flagship current affairs programme he's "hiding in plain sight".
    Remind me which party's leader refused to do an interview with Andrew Neil at the last election and then hid in a fridge to avoid another?
    Give me a break.
    Well why should he win ? No other politician can either, part of the job is upsetting people and seeing how they handle it. SKS is simply doing what Boris did but in a more refined way.
    Yes Starmer doing an interview is entirely like Johnson not doing one. Going on the radio is just like hiding in a fridge. Black is white. Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia. There are no American tanks in Baghdad.
    One characteristic of politicians is that the more we see of them, the less we like them. Sunaks polling goes up when parliament isn't sitting and he is not doing photo ops etc.

    Clearly that becomes problematic during a campaign, but Starmer has mastered the non-appearance appearance. He does the interview but says nothing of interest. Box ticked on appearing, but nothing to annoy voters. Sheer genius.
    Isn't this just another example of people underestimating Starmer's skills as a politician? Folk on here seem to be criticising him for mastering the art of not annoying the voters. Surely that's a point in his favour?
    I say this BTW as someone who was not massively enthusiastic about the man. I didn't vote for him to be leader. But in today's world of negative politics if you can show up and not piss people off I think you're winning.
    Yes. Someone* posted recently that being LOTO was mostly about politics, being PM mostly about administration. I think that an astute observation. In particular we may well see a surprisingly competent PM Starmer by this time next year.

    *@IanB2 I believe
  • Options
    IcarusIcarus Posts: 904
    Blaby District Council by-election result

    Lib Dem 60.4%
    Con 19.3%
    Lab 14.1%
    Green 5.9%

    Liberal Democrat HOLD

    Leicestershire County Council Election -Glen Parva and Blaby even better

    Liberal Democrats 61% +12.3%
    Conservative 19.8% -13.7%
    Labour 11.7% +1.7%
    Green 7.1% -0.6%
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,001
    DavidL said:

    Some rather disappointing and frankly unexpected revisals to GDP growth this morning which put us at risk of a technical recession: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67799713

    The weird thing is that the earnings data and the tax take from it both indicated that if anything economic activity was being underestimated, not over estimated. Curious.

    UK PMIs had been very weak, so I don't think it's that surprising.
  • Options
    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    I’m currently reading Jeremy Heywood’s biography (by his wife), which offers an interesting glimpse inside the reality of government. In particular the relentless 24/7 treadmill of issues and problems, meetings and more meetings, people to see, and with the politics left for the politicians to consider. The chapters on the GFC are a great read; Brown comes out of it very well for his leadership and determination as the financial crisis unfolds, which played to all of his technical and political strengths. Yet failure on a stack of other fronts and his government was soon back behind in the polls.

    My guess is that Sunak is ‘performing’ OK in all the meetings behind the scenes, but lacks any real political vision or instinct and allowing others to pull his strings when it comes to the politics, very much as Hague did (and of course LOTO is mostly politics, being PM is mostly administration). And unable to join one up with the other.
    Thanks Ian. That sounds like one to read.

    I am pleased to hear what it says about Brown because this is a line I have been pushing on this Site for many years, and I take flak for it. He was a poor PM generally, but he got the GFC right and indeed many other leaders at the time, notably the newly elected Obama, looked to him for leadership and they got it. The crisis played to his strengths, and he had the credibility in financial circles to carry it through.

    Fwiw my view of Blair is kind of a mirror image of Brown. He was a good PM, who got the huge issue of Iraq terribly wrong.

    It's all debatable, of course, but nice to know I have Heywood on my side.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,681

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    I had an interesting evening in the pub yesterday with old friends from university. Two objected to Starmer as you did - an empty suit. The guy on the left increasingly frustrated that Starmer isn’t Corbyn (I know, I know…)

    Point was that even though they listed where Starmer is deficient, they recognise and call out that Sunak and the Tories are *more* deficient.

    Even the “Labour will break the economy” line which has reinforced Tory votes before doesn’t work. The guy who was a 2019 Tory won’t vote for them in fear of what Labour might do, because whatever that is he is living the reality of what the Tories are already doing.

    “I want to be able to afford to pay my bills” is a big motivator, even if you aren’t convinced the alternative will be much better. If a bit better is enough to keep you afloat, that will do. And that’s millions on millions of voters…
    I cant see much difference between Sunak and Starmer which is why Im fairly relaxed about a Labour government. My main irritation is that it will be another wasted decade with more of the same failed policies.
    The reason that the last decade was wasted was the dead end of Brexit.

    Neither being in or out of the EU prevented us from addressing the real problems of our economy and society. Hence the Red Wall and Blue Wall both being annoyed. There are only so many deat cats that can be thrown on the table.
    Few people want the real problem being addressed.

    Because the real problem is that this country has for far too long lived beyond its means.

    Which means that at some point living standards have to fall for most people.

    And the longer this is delayed the harder the change will be.
    I agree.

    We have been selling off the family silver for years and been running up the credit cards to fund imported tat for decades.

    Sooner or later the bailiff comes knocking.
  • Options
    IcarusIcarus Posts: 904
    Icarus said:

    Blaby District Council by-election result

    Lib Dem 60.4%
    Con 19.3%
    Lab 14.1%
    Green 5.9%

    Liberal Democrat HOLD

    Leicestershire County Council Election -Glen Parva and Blaby even better

    Liberal Democrats 61% +12.3%
    Conservative 19.8% -13.7%
    Labour 11.7% +1.7%
    Green 7.1% -0.6%

    Richard Holden -Conservative Party Chairman came to help!!!
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    Some rather disappointing and frankly unexpected revisals to GDP growth this morning which put us at risk of a technical recession: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67799713

    The weird thing is that the earnings data and the tax take from it both indicated that if anything economic activity was being underestimated, not over estimated. Curious.

    UK PMIs had been very weak, so I don't think it's that surprising.
    Not very weak but certainly below 50 for a few months although the services PMI has now moved back into positive territory.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,645
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Over 15GW of wind power again this morning after Orsted confirmed that they are proceeding with the Horsea 3 wind farm yesterday which will be the largest single windfarm in the world and should be on line by 2027. This is despite the cancellation of a number of major developments around the world with the company recognising and acknowledging that the policy structure in the UK made it attractive.

    Amongst all the populist blundering incompetence wind is something the UK has got broadly right.

    It's a good illustration of a positive long term policy adopted and persisted with.

    Precious few of those.
    Ed Davey was a very effective minister:

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/mar/25/offshore-windfarms-vital-tensions-russia-ed-davey?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
    In terms of “meaningful change”, for better or worse, to coin a recent SKS phrase, Davey must be up there alongside Osborne as CoE and Gove as Ed Sec of cabinet ministers other than the PM in the last decade.

    Sadly the toxic legacy of having helped the Tories get in means Lib Dems are still hesitant to talk about their record in coalition.
  • Options
    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    I’m currently reading Jeremy Heywood’s biography (by his wife), which offers an interesting glimpse inside the reality of government. In particular the relentless 24/7 treadmill of issues and problems, meetings and more meetings, people to see, and with the politics left for the politicians to consider. The chapters on the GFC are a great read; Brown comes out of it very well for his leadership and determination as the financial crisis unfolds, which played to all of his technical and political strengths. Yet failure on a stack of other fronts and his government was soon back behind in the polls.

    My guess is that Sunak is ‘performing’ OK in all the meetings behind the scenes, but lacks any real political vision or instinct and allowing others to pull his strings when it comes to the politics, very much as Hague did (and of course LOTO is mostly politics, being PM is mostly administration). And unable to join one up with the other.
    You do not have to go full-on Nadine Dorries to doubt the motivation and basic competence of the backroom staff. The likelihood is that the people around Rishi are the same people who were behind Liz Truss and Boris, and look how that turned out.
  • Options

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    Some rather disappointing and frankly unexpected revisals to GDP growth this morning which put us at risk of a technical recession: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67799713

    The weird thing is that the earnings data and the tax take from it both indicated that if anything economic activity was being underestimated, not over estimated. Curious.

    UK PMIs had been very weak, so I don't think it's that surprising.
    Not very weak but certainly below 50 for a few months although the services PMI has now moved back into positive territory.
    Ok, I confess my ignorance. What's a PMI? Pre-Menstrual Indicator?
  • Options
    NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,347
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Classic whataboutary from Alanbrooke. The only thing they have left is to try to paint others as all the same. The final bunker.

    I am surprised by how bad Sunak is, even with his lack of experience you might have thought that the people around him would create some basic competence and political common, but no.

    LOL I realise you want to think SKS is great PM material but he isnt. There is very little difference between him and Sunk it will be continuity crap.
    Yawn. Same old, same old, last line of defence stuff.

    Sunak is all about the headlines.
    SKS is all about staying out of them. In 5 months there could be an election and he hasnt got the balls to say anything. An empty suit.
    I had an interesting evening in the pub yesterday with old friends from university. Two objected to Starmer as you did - an empty suit. The guy on the left increasingly frustrated that Starmer isn’t Corbyn (I know, I know…)

    Point was that even though they listed where Starmer is deficient, they recognise and call out that Sunak and the Tories are *more* deficient.

    Even the “Labour will break the economy” line which has reinforced Tory votes before doesn’t work. The guy who was a 2019 Tory won’t vote for them in fear of what Labour might do, because whatever that is he is living the reality of what the Tories are already doing.

    “I want to be able to afford to pay my bills” is a big motivator, even if you aren’t convinced the alternative will be much better. If a bit better is enough to keep you afloat, that will do. And that’s millions on millions of voters…
    I cant see much difference between Sunak and Starmer which is why Im fairly relaxed about a Labour government. My main irritation is that it will be another wasted decade with more of the same failed policies.
    The reason that the last decade was wasted was the dead end of Brexit.

    Neither being in or out of the EU prevented us from addressing the real problems of our economy and society. Hence the Red Wall and Blue Wall both being annoyed. There are only so many deat cats that can be thrown on the table.
    Few people want the real problem being addressed.

    Because the real problem is that this country has for far too long lived beyond its means.

    Which means that at some point living standards have to fall for most people.

    And the longer this is delayed the harder the change will be.
    I agree.

    We have been selling off the family silver for years and been running up the credit cards to fund imported tat for decades.

    Sooner or later the bailiff comes knocking.
    So the Junior Doctors should realise this and accept the pay offer?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,681
    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Over 15GW of wind power again this morning after Orsted confirmed that they are proceeding with the Horsea 3 wind farm yesterday which will be the largest single windfarm in the world and should be on line by 2027. This is despite the cancellation of a number of major developments around the world with the company recognising and acknowledging that the policy structure in the UK made it attractive.

    Amongst all the populist blundering incompetence wind is something the UK has got broadly right.

    It's a good illustration of a positive long term policy adopted and persisted with.

    Precious few of those.
    Ed Davey was a very effective minister:

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/mar/25/offshore-windfarms-vital-tensions-russia-ed-davey?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
    In terms of “meaningful change”, for better or worse, to coin a recent SKS phrase, Davey must be up there alongside Osborne as CoE and Gove as Ed Sec of cabinet ministers other than the PM in the last decade.

    Sadly the toxic legacy of having helped the Tories get in means Lib Dems are still hesitant to talk about their record in coalition.
    I think Ed Davey is underrated as a politician too. We have got a bit too used to flamboyant scoundrels to value dull competence.

    I think he will come over well at the debate stage of the campaign, being a bit more charismatic than Keir.
This discussion has been closed.