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The polls – December 2023 compared with a year ago – politicalbetting.com

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    Tory tweet using image of BBC news anchor giving middle finger to attack Labour may have backfired, new study says
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/tory-tweet-finger-middle-bbc-labour-immigration-attack-backfire-b1127271.html
  • Options
    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,126

    Tres said:

    RIP A QUESTION OF SPORT. according to GB breaking news. The BBC were mad to axe Sue Barker

    Yet another reason not to pay the BBC license

    It is the below-inflation (and pledge-breaking) licence fee increase announced this week that has made the BBC look to axe expensive but failing shows like A Question of Sport. iirc they have a £90 million funding gap to fill.
    Why is QoS expensive? I'd expect it to be quite cheap to make - unless the panelists earn an f'load.
    it was dated 30 years ago - the only reason it's survived so long is precisely because it's cheap to make
    No. It survived because it had splendid presenters and excellent Captains. The BBC committed Hari kiri over this programne.. especially booting Sue Barker.. They are bonkers.
    They think QoS is all over …… it is now!
  • Options
    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,126
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    RIP A QUESTION OF SPORT. according to GB breaking news. The BBC were mad to axe Sue Barker

    Yet another reason not to pay the BBC license

    It is the below-inflation (and pledge-breaking) licence fee increase announced this week that has made the BBC look to axe expensive but failing shows like A Question of Sport. iirc they have a £90 million funding gap to fill.
    Nonsense. It's making stupid decisions and axing popular presenters. It's the way the BBC is going. If the license fee went, the BBC would implode. Who would pay to watch the woke shite that is the BBC.
    “Woke”

    Can we add woke to the Conservative home banishment list along with colour me, says hi and the rest of them?
    Woke Shite is an apt description of the BBC right now. Woke stays. Sorry
    I’m currently watching Mary Berry’s highland Christmas. Is that woke?
    She was also on Gardeners World this evening. At her age, she either has a good agent or a poor pension.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,699

    Reposting - Am now watching via YT today's blue plate special served up by latest Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry grilling.

    Barrister for the Inquiry is quite good. As with other Inquiry lawyers, his manner is polite, restrained, focused, relentless.

    In contrast, the solicitor for firm of law-mongers hired by the buffon's then (and now?) the PO is about as hopeless as the local yokel lawyer in "My Cousin Vinnie".

    That is, crap. Wouldn't hire him to notarize a pet license, let alone furnish legal advice above AI standard.

    Fairliered comment on above:

    FR: The Post Office chose lawyers that would make their management look competent by comparison.

    SSI - Didn't work, hell no!

    It is remarkable how that solicitor (from an external legal firm hired by the PO) began confident and articulate, but within a couple of hours was reduced to a gibbering wreck who could barely understand what he was being asked.
  • Options
    Cookie said:

    algarkirk said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    Cookie said:

    stodge said:

    IanB2 said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I think I said all this in my last contribution so thanks for catching up.

    Talking to a despairing ex-Conservative colleague at lunch time, I was able to offer him some hope. Even if it takes two defeats, it's still likely (though not certain) the Conservatives will be the only viable alternative Government.

    Opposition to Starmer will emerge, perhaps quickly, perhaps slowly. That opposition will be around what the Government does or tries to do rather than re-fighting the battles of 2010-24 (and especially 2016-24) and the Conservatives will need to focus their energies on what the Government is or isn't about rather than what should have happened before. IF the Conservatives remain rooted in and obsessed by rhe battles of their time in Government, opposition to Starmer will default to the LDs, Greens and others.

    The world of the mid-2030s will have plenty of challenges and an adroit opposition will have plenty of issues on which to attack the Government but the one thing they can't afford is self-indulgence in opposition otherwise Labour won't be in for 10 years but 15 or perhaps longer.

    If he’s an ex-Conservative, he shouldn’t despair, so?
    I would describe him as an old-fashioned Conservative who has been repulsed by the move to populism. He is despairing both in terms of a future Labour Government and the continuation of the present administration.
    Several of my Conservative friends are in the same mood. I suspect a few will hold their noses and vote Tory nonetheless, some will just sit the election out.
    Interestingly, I have just done a really weird yougov which might have been trying to dig into this.
    It asked if you considered yourself a Conservative, a Lib, a Lab, etc. After some thought, I answered in the spirit I think the question was intended and put 'Conservative'. It then asked why. After some thought, I answered that it's because despite their many faults they seem the only way of keeping the Labour Party out, and I fear the Labour Party more than I fear any other government.

    More interestingly still, it asked what I thought was the biggest issue facing the country today. Again, after some thought, I answered 'our inability to disagree civilly with one another'. Which I think is true; if we can manage to do that, everything else will fall into place.

    I can't imagine how they will code this survey.

    It also asked lots of questions to prove I was paying attention e.g. really simple questions, the same question worded two simple ways, etc.
    I struggle with the notion anyone can "fear" a Labour Government led by Starmer. Apprehension perhaps, frustration maybe but fear, seriously?

    I'd have thought five more years of the current Government a greater source of anxiety.
    He’s backtracked on almost everything he said to get elected as leader, just as he backtracked on his acceptance of the Brexit result once he got ejected as an MP in 2017. So that’s one thing to fear, that he’ll stay true to form and go back on his word on every policy in the manifesto

    For instance he pledged to fight for the right of FOM to get elected as leader, and now he’s equating open door immigration with low wages for the working class
    If you are in a political party, you sign up to the notion of collective responsibility. Have the Conservatives been wholly consistent since 2010? Hardly - you've had huge policy upheavals under Cameron, May, Truss and Johnson before Sunak. We now see for example commitments on house building targets ended by Gove (presumably because they think building houses in rural England is a vote loser) so let's not assume Labour is the only party which routinely changes policy on a whim?

    As for what Labour will have in its manifesto, it's as much of a mystery to me as well. I suspect it will be a pretty anodyne document which will give some plenty to complain about and Starmer plenty of room for manoeuvre.
    Yes, but the question was ’’What could anyone seriously fear about a Labour Party led by Starmer?’ not ‘Do all political parties lie to get elected?’

    Sir Keir has backtracked on pledges he made ‘As a matter of principle’ yet is treated as if he is the most honest man to walk the earth.

    Pre GE17 he said accepting the referendum result was ‘a matter of principle’

    Pre GE19 he said a second referendum in which he would campaign for Remain was ‘a really important point of principle’

    Pre Lab Leader Election he pledged to fight for the rights of Migrant workers and FOM

    Now he’s saying mass immigration lowers wages for the British working class

    So the answer to ‘What could anyone seriously fear about a Labour Party led by Starmer?’ is that he could do the complete opposite of what he promised to do in order to get your vote


    He is made of exactly the stuff successful politicians have to have - that mixture of the image of principle and the machinations of Machiavelli. IIRC the Economist recently was pointing out that the problem with chaps like Rory Stewart is that their principles are fine but they are no good at the sheer dirtiness of politics.

    As we need at least one electable leader and there are no other candidates for electability anywhere in sight, we should be grateful. Hopefully he will want election and reelection, and as he knows you only win from the centre, he can be mostly trusted.
    Reason to fear SKSLab #1: "we want more harder lockdowns".
    Reason to fear SKSLab #2: that picture of him and Ange jumping on the George Floyd bandwagon.
    Reason to fear SKSLab #3: his decrying the government not joining the EU vaccine scheme.
    These are just the first three that apring to mind.

    Sure, this government is shit. But SKSLab rarely misses an opportunity to indicate it will, given the chance, be shitter: it attacks it from the wrong side (e.g. lockdown), and rarely takes an opportunity to say it would reverse a bad decision by government (e.g. HS2).
    That is why I fear SKSLab. I expect it to make Britain less free, less productive and woker.

    OTOH, they have madesome vaguely encouraging noises about housing.
    It won't be good under LAB! This is why - despite what the polls say - there is no real enthusiasm for them and as @Andy_JS has alluded to earlier, they will do well to get to 40%.

    Of course 35% was more than enough in 2005 though!
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,140
    Leon said:

    This really isn't what we are told to perceive

    "The UK economy has outperformed France and Germany since the pandemic and, based on today's PMIs, is currently doing much better as well (composite PMI consistent with growth in Q4 versus a contraction in GER and FRA)."

    https://x.com/DanielKral1/status/1735624697105039869?s=20

    UK has done similarly to France (ahead on absolutes, behind per capita). But remember French median household income is around 60k and the UK’s is 38k. So they are more than 50% richer than us per family. We have more valuable assets because our houses are expensive, but much lower income.

    Germany did well during Covid so its performance after Covid doesn’t include any bounce back. But they are doing properly badly now and I think will do for some time.
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,409
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    RIP A QUESTION OF SPORT. according to GB breaking news. The BBC were mad to axe Sue Barker

    Yet another reason not to pay the BBC license

    It is the below-inflation (and pledge-breaking) licence fee increase announced this week that has made the BBC look to axe expensive but failing shows like A Question of Sport. iirc they have a £90 million funding gap to fill.
    Why is QoS expensive? I'd expect it to be quite cheap to make - unless the panelists earn an f'load.
    OK. Maybe it is just easy to axe. QoS is mainly a few panellists and the rights to sports clips.
    It was axed because the BBC doesn't really like that section of its audience which watches QoS, and would rather chase the market share of 'people who don't watch telly'. Because that's the kind of decisions you can make due to the unique way the BBC is funded.
    Media companies having been annoying people by axing things older people like in favour of incomprehensible stuff to appeal to “youth” since as long as I’ve been noticing. Radio 1 did it every 5 years or so throughout the 80s, 90s and noughties and got loads of shit for it every time.

    This is the same old thing. It seems mad when it happens, but looking back imagine if Radio 1 were still like the days of Tony Blackburn. Just one of those things. It’s nothing new. It’s one of the inevitable sadnesses of getting old.
    If that be the case and they don't want to appeal to the likes of me, why should I have to pay the license fee?
    You don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone. Look through the listings.
    I have and its gone.. there is little left. The BBC is full of repeats that one has seen many times before. Its crap and its getting worse. I don't want to.pay for it and I shouldn't have to. Let the BBC be subject to being answerable to their decisions and collaping viewing figures.and incompetence.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,339
    TimS said:

    RIP A QUESTION OF SPORT. according to GB breaking news. The BBC were mad to axe Sue Barker

    Yet another reason not to pay the BBC license

    It is the below-inflation (and pledge-breaking) licence fee increase announced this week that has made the BBC look to axe expensive but failing shows like A Question of Sport. iirc they have a £90 million funding gap to fill.
    Nonsense. It's making stupid decisions and axing popular presenters. It's the way the BBC is going. If the license fee went, the BBC would implode. Who would pay to watch the woke shite that is the BBC.
    “Woke”

    Can we add woke to the Conservative home banishment list along with colour me, says hi and the rest of them?
    "Doing some heavy lifting"
    "Well-respected"
    "Ahem"
  • Options
    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,126
    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    RIP A QUESTION OF SPORT. according to GB breaking news. The BBC were mad to axe Sue Barker

    Yet another reason not to pay the BBC license

    It is the below-inflation (and pledge-breaking) licence fee increase announced this week that has made the BBC look to axe expensive but failing shows like A Question of Sport. iirc they have a £90 million funding gap to fill.
    Why is QoS expensive? I'd expect it to be quite cheap to make - unless the panelists earn an f'load.
    OK. Maybe it is just easy to axe. QoS is mainly a few panellists and the rights to sports clips.
    It was axed because the BBC doesn't really like that section of its audience which watches QoS, and would rather chase the market share of 'people who don't watch telly'. Because that's the kind of decisions you can make due to the unique way the BBC is funded.
    Media companies have been annoying people by axing things older people like in favour of incomprehensible stuff to appeal to “youth” since as long as I’ve been noticing. Radio 1 did it every 5 years or so throughout the 80s, 90s and noughties and got loads of shit for it every time.

    This is the same old thing. It seems mad when it happens, but looking back imagine if Radio 1 were still like the days of Tony Blackburn. Just one of those things. It’s nothing new. It’s one of the inevitable sadnesses of getting old.
    Traditional television is controlled by young, woke people, and watched by old, reactionary people. We should get our revenge and get Peter Hitchens, Nigel Farage and Peter Bone to take over TikTok.
  • Options
    MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,487
    Argentina's new AnCap Generalissimo is getting started:

    "BREAKING 🇦🇷 President Javier Milei announces a total crackdown on Argentine civil society, calling on armed forces to break strikes, arrest protestors, “protect” children from families that bring them to demos, and form a new national registry of all agitating organisations."

    https://twitter.com/davidrkadler/status/1735666098127733129
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,088
    edited December 2023
    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,140

    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    RIP A QUESTION OF SPORT. according to GB breaking news. The BBC were mad to axe Sue Barker

    Yet another reason not to pay the BBC license

    It is the below-inflation (and pledge-breaking) licence fee increase announced this week that has made the BBC look to axe expensive but failing shows like A Question of Sport. iirc they have a £90 million funding gap to fill.
    Why is QoS expensive? I'd expect it to be quite cheap to make - unless the panelists earn an f'load.
    OK. Maybe it is just easy to axe. QoS is mainly a few panellists and the rights to sports clips.
    It was axed because the BBC doesn't really like that section of its audience which watches QoS, and would rather chase the market share of 'people who don't watch telly'. Because that's the kind of decisions you can make due to the unique way the BBC is funded.
    Media companies have been annoying people by axing things older people like in favour of incomprehensible stuff to appeal to “youth” since as long as I’ve been noticing. Radio 1 did it every 5 years or so throughout the 80s, 90s and noughties and got loads of shit for it every time.

    This is the same old thing. It seems mad when it happens, but looking back imagine if Radio 1 were still like the days of Tony Blackburn. Just one of those things. It’s nothing new. It’s one of the inevitable sadnesses of getting old.
    Traditional television is controlled by young, woke people, and watched by old, reactionary people. We should get our revenge and get Peter Hitchens, Nigel Farage and Peter Bone to take over TikTok.
    Might be progress over its current control by Xi Jinping.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,806

    Tory tweet using image of BBC news anchor giving middle finger to attack Labour may have backfired, new study says
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/tory-tweet-finger-middle-bbc-labour-immigration-attack-backfire-b1127271.html

    I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,551

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    RIP A QUESTION OF SPORT. according to GB breaking news. The BBC were mad to axe Sue Barker

    Yet another reason not to pay the BBC license

    It is the below-inflation (and pledge-breaking) licence fee increase announced this week that has made the BBC look to axe expensive but failing shows like A Question of Sport. iirc they have a £90 million funding gap to fill.
    Nonsense. It's making stupid decisions and axing popular presenters. It's the way the BBC is going. If the license fee went, the BBC would implode. Who would pay to watch the woke shite that is the BBC.
    “Woke”

    Can we add woke to the Conservative home banishment list along with colour me, says hi and the rest of them?
    Woke Shite is an apt description of the BBC right now. Woke stays. Sorry
    Yeah. Agree. It’s useful. There’s a correlation between (1) those that use the word and (2) reactionary bellends whose viewpoints can be safely disregarded.
    You are obviously too young to remember the excellent stuff the BBC used to produce. I justvscroll past most of the output. I have moved to the little that is decent that can be recorded to avoid incessant adverts and trailers.
    I’m 50 in 2 weeks. If I’m “too young” to remember any of the good stuff then it’s been shit a helluva long time.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,339
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    RIP A QUESTION OF SPORT. according to GB breaking news. The BBC were mad to axe Sue Barker

    Yet another reason not to pay the BBC license

    It is the below-inflation (and pledge-breaking) licence fee increase announced this week that has made the BBC look to axe expensive but failing shows like A Question of Sport. iirc they have a £90 million funding gap to fill.
    Nonsense. It's making stupid decisions and axing popular presenters. It's the way the BBC is going. If the license fee went, the BBC would implode. Who would pay to watch the woke shite that is the BBC.
    “Woke”

    Can we add woke to the Conservative home banishment list along with colour me, says hi and the rest of them?
    Woke Shite is an apt description of the BBC right now. Woke stays. Sorry
    Yeah. Agree. It’s useful. There’s a correlation between (1) those that use the word and (2) reactionary bellends whose viewpoints can be safely disregarded.
    You POSTURING POLTROON
    And you, sir, are a preening popinjay.
    I had to look it up. It's just the straight (cis?) equivalent of a drag queen, a man dressing as a man in a really extravagant manner. Think Laurence Llewellyn Bowen on acid. More acid. On fire. In space. 😃
  • Options
    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,126

    Cookie said:

    algarkirk said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    Cookie said:

    stodge said:

    IanB2 said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I think I said all this in my last contribution so thanks for catching up.

    Talking to a despairing ex-Conservative colleague at lunch time, I was able to offer him some hope. Even if it takes two defeats, it's still likely (though not certain) the Conservatives will be the only viable alternative Government.

    Opposition to Starmer will emerge, perhaps quickly, perhaps slowly. That opposition will be around what the Government does or tries to do rather than re-fighting the battles of 2010-24 (and especially 2016-24) and the Conservatives will need to focus their energies on what the Government is or isn't about rather than what should have happened before. IF the Conservatives remain rooted in and obsessed by rhe battles of their time in Government, opposition to Starmer will default to the LDs, Greens and others.

    The world of the mid-2030s will have plenty of challenges and an adroit opposition will have plenty of issues on which to attack the Government but the one thing they can't afford is self-indulgence in opposition otherwise Labour won't be in for 10 years but 15 or perhaps longer.

    If he’s an ex-Conservative, he shouldn’t despair, so?
    I would describe him as an old-fashioned Conservative who has been repulsed by the move to populism. He is despairing both in terms of a future Labour Government and the continuation of the present administration.
    Several of my Conservative friends are in the same mood. I suspect a few will hold their noses and vote Tory nonetheless, some will just sit the election out.
    Interestingly, I have just done a really weird yougov which might have been trying to dig into this.
    It asked if you considered yourself a Conservative, a Lib, a Lab, etc. After some thought, I answered in the spirit I think the question was intended and put 'Conservative'. It then asked why. After some thought, I answered that it's because despite their many faults they seem the only way of keeping the Labour Party out, and I fear the Labour Party more than I fear any other government.

    More interestingly still, it asked what I thought was the biggest issue facing the country today. Again, after some thought, I answered 'our inability to disagree civilly with one another'. Which I think is true; if we can manage to do that, everything else will fall into place.

    I can't imagine how they will code this survey.

    It also asked lots of questions to prove I was paying attention e.g. really simple questions, the same question worded two simple ways, etc.
    I struggle with the notion anyone can "fear" a Labour Government led by Starmer. Apprehension perhaps, frustration maybe but fear, seriously?

    I'd have thought five more years of the current Government a greater source of anxiety.
    He’s backtracked on almost everything he said to get elected as leader, just as he backtracked on his acceptance of the Brexit result once he got ejected as an MP in 2017. So that’s one thing to fear, that he’ll stay true to form and go back on his word on every policy in the manifesto

    For instance he pledged to fight for the right of FOM to get elected as leader, and now he’s equating open door immigration with low wages for the working class
    If you are in a political party, you sign up to the notion of collective responsibility. Have the Conservatives been wholly consistent since 2010? Hardly - you've had huge policy upheavals under Cameron, May, Truss and Johnson before Sunak. We now see for example commitments on house building targets ended by Gove (presumably because they think building houses in rural England is a vote loser) so let's not assume Labour is the only party which routinely changes policy on a whim?

    As for what Labour will have in its manifesto, it's as much of a mystery to me as well. I suspect it will be a pretty anodyne document which will give some plenty to complain about and Starmer plenty of room for manoeuvre.
    Yes, but the question was ’’What could anyone seriously fear about a Labour Party led by Starmer?’ not ‘Do all political parties lie to get elected?’

    Sir Keir has backtracked on pledges he made ‘As a matter of principle’ yet is treated as if he is the most honest man to walk the earth.

    Pre GE17 he said accepting the referendum result was ‘a matter of principle’

    Pre GE19 he said a second referendum in which he would campaign for Remain was ‘a really important point of principle’

    Pre Lab Leader Election he pledged to fight for the rights of Migrant workers and FOM

    Now he’s saying mass immigration lowers wages for the British working class

    So the answer to ‘What could anyone seriously fear about a Labour Party led by Starmer?’ is that he could do the complete opposite of what he promised to do in order to get your vote


    He is made of exactly the stuff successful politicians have to have - that mixture of the image of principle and the machinations of Machiavelli. IIRC the Economist recently was pointing out that the problem with chaps like Rory Stewart is that their principles are fine but they are no good at the sheer dirtiness of politics.

    As we need at least one electable leader and there are no other candidates for electability anywhere in sight, we should be grateful. Hopefully he will want election and reelection, and as he knows you only win from the centre, he can be mostly trusted.
    Reason to fear SKSLab #1: "we want more harder lockdowns".
    Reason to fear SKSLab #2: that picture of him and Ange jumping on the George Floyd bandwagon.
    Reason to fear SKSLab #3: his decrying the government not joining the EU vaccine scheme.
    These are just the first three that apring to mind.

    Sure, this government is shit. But SKSLab rarely misses an opportunity to indicate it will, given the chance, be shitter: it attacks it from the wrong side (e.g. lockdown), and rarely takes an opportunity to say it would reverse a bad decision by government (e.g. HS2).
    That is why I fear SKSLab. I expect it to make Britain less free, less productive and woker.

    OTOH, they have madesome vaguely encouraging noises about housing.
    It won't be good under LAB! This is why - despite what the polls say - there is no real enthusiasm for them and as @Andy_JS has alluded to earlier, they will do well to get to 40%.

    Of course 35% was more than enough in 2005 though!
    I suspect a very low turnout, under 60%.
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,409
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    RIP A QUESTION OF SPORT. according to GB breaking news. The BBC were mad to axe Sue Barker

    Yet another reason not to pay the BBC license

    It is the below-inflation (and pledge-breaking) licence fee increase announced this week that has made the BBC look to axe expensive but failing shows like A Question of Sport. iirc they have a £90 million funding gap to fill.
    Nonsense. It's making stupid decisions and axing popular presenters. It's the way the BBC is going. If the license fee went, the BBC would implode. Who would pay to watch the woke shite that is the BBC.
    “Woke”

    Can we add woke to the Conservative home banishment list along with colour me, says hi and the rest of them?
    Woke Shite is an apt description of the BBC right now. Woke stays. Sorry
    Yeah. Agree. It’s useful. There’s a correlation between (1) those that use the word and (2) reactionary bellends whose viewpoints can be safely disregarded.
    You are obviously too young to remember the excellent stuff the BBC used to produce. I justvscroll past most of the output. I have moved to the little that is decent that can be recorded to avoid incessant adverts and trailers.
    I’m 50 in 2 weeks. If I’m “too young” to remember any of the good stuff then it’s been shit a helluva long time.
    It has a good 20 yrs
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,140
    Leon said:

    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-the-united-kingdom/

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-france-2010---2021-/

    Look at absolute numbers. Then look at the graph for each country, up to 2016 and then from 2016 onwards.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,551

    dixiedean said:

    RIP A QUESTION OF SPORT. according to GB breaking news. The BBC were mad to axe Sue Barker

    Yet another reason not to pay the BBC license

    It was downhill since David Coleman.
    I went to school with a David Coleman. Not THE David Coleman, just A David Coleman.
    Used to teach a David Brent. And a Shirley Temple.
    I also went to school with a Mark Phillips!
    I once defended an employment tribunal claim brought by one Clancey Von Kappelhoff-Day Schlockenhorror
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,806
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    RIP A QUESTION OF SPORT. according to GB breaking news. The BBC were mad to axe Sue Barker

    Yet another reason not to pay the BBC license

    It is the below-inflation (and pledge-breaking) licence fee increase announced this week that has made the BBC look to axe expensive but failing shows like A Question of Sport. iirc they have a £90 million funding gap to fill.
    Why is QoS expensive? I'd expect it to be quite cheap to make - unless the panelists earn an f'load.
    OK. Maybe it is just easy to axe. QoS is mainly a few panellists and the rights to sports clips.
    It was axed because the BBC doesn't really like that section of its audience which watches QoS, and would rather chase the market share of 'people who don't watch telly'. Because that's the kind of decisions you can make due to the unique way the BBC is funded.
    Media companies having been annoying people by axing things older people like in favour of incomprehensible stuff to appeal to “youth” since as long as I’ve been noticing. Radio 1 did it every 5 years or so throughout the 80s, 90s and noughties and got loads of shit for it every time.

    This is the same old thing. It seems mad when it happens, but looking back imagine if Radio 1 were still like the days of Tony Blackburn. Just one of those things. It’s nothing new. It’s one of the inevitable sadnesses of getting old.
    If that be the case and they don't want to appeal to the likes of me, why should I have to pay the license fee?
    You don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone. Look through the listings.
    I have and its gone.. there is little left. The BBC is full of repeats that one has seen many times before. Its crap and its getting worse. I don't want to.pay for it and I shouldn't have to. Let the BBC be subject to being answerable to their decisions and collaping viewing figures.and incompetence.
    It’s probably Britain’s most globally powerful brand. Possibly the second most powerful media brand in the world, after Disney. With incredible content still being created despite years of cuts. An asset all other national broadcasters (and governments) would kill for.
    The Tories, meanwhile, are thinking of putting the soon to be unemployed Spielman in charge of it.

    After the fantastic job she did of taking a bad exam system and making it worse, and taking a punitive school inspection system and making it into one both punishing and completely worthless, what could possibly go wrong?
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,027

    Council Election post LE 2023 to date

    Aggregate Results of the 115 Council By-Elections (for 116 Seats) Since LE2023:

    LAB: 40 (-1)
    LDM: 33 (+15)
    CON: 16 (-15)
    GRN: 13 (+4)
    IND: 8 (+3)
    LOC: 5 (-2)
    PLC: 1 (=)
    SNP: 0 (-4)

    Green Tories a very poor 4th!
    You being a Tory and me not being a Tory its quite bizarre you would think the Greens are Tories

    Maybe you are just a bit thick
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,806
    DougSeal said:

    dixiedean said:

    RIP A QUESTION OF SPORT. according to GB breaking news. The BBC were mad to axe Sue Barker

    Yet another reason not to pay the BBC license

    It was downhill since David Coleman.
    I went to school with a David Coleman. Not THE David Coleman, just A David Coleman.
    Used to teach a David Brent. And a Shirley Temple.
    I also went to school with a Mark Phillips!
    I once defended an employment tribunal claim brought by one Clancey Von Kappelhoff-Day Schlockenhorror
    My Head of History at Aberystwyth was Phillipp Schofield.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,339
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    RIP A QUESTION OF SPORT. according to GB breaking news. The BBC were mad to axe Sue Barker

    Yet another reason not to pay the BBC license

    It is the below-inflation (and pledge-breaking) licence fee increase announced this week that has made the BBC look to axe expensive but failing shows like A Question of Sport. iirc they have a £90 million funding gap to fill.
    Nonsense. It's making stupid decisions and axing popular presenters. It's the way the BBC is going. If the license fee went, the BBC would implode. Who would pay to watch the woke shite that is the BBC.
    “Woke”

    Can we add woke to the Conservative home banishment list along with colour me, says hi and the rest of them?
    Woke Shite is an apt description of the BBC right now. Woke stays. Sorry
    Yeah. Agree. It’s useful. There’s a correlation between (1) those that use the word and (2) reactionary bellends whose viewpoints can be safely disregarded.
    You are obviously too young to remember the excellent stuff the BBC used to produce. I justvscroll past most of the output. I have moved to the little that is decent that can be recorded to avoid incessant adverts and trailers.
    I’m 50 in 2 weeks. If I’m “too young” to remember any of the good stuff then it’s been shit a helluva long time.
    Possibly. Edge of Darkness was in 1985ish. You would have been 11 or 12. Blackadder was the 80s. It's been a long downhill slide since then. It wasn't always bad journalism and reality shows.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,776

    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    RIP A QUESTION OF SPORT. according to GB breaking news. The BBC were mad to axe Sue Barker

    Yet another reason not to pay the BBC license

    It is the below-inflation (and pledge-breaking) licence fee increase announced this week that has made the BBC look to axe expensive but failing shows like A Question of Sport. iirc they have a £90 million funding gap to fill.
    Why is QoS expensive? I'd expect it to be quite cheap to make - unless the panelists earn an f'load.
    OK. Maybe it is just easy to axe. QoS is mainly a few panellists and the rights to sports clips.
    It was axed because the BBC doesn't really like that section of its audience which watches QoS, and would rather chase the market share of 'people who don't watch telly'. Because that's the kind of decisions you can make due to the unique way the BBC is funded.
    Media companies having been annoying people by axing things older people like in favour of incomprehensible stuff to appeal to “youth” since as long as I’ve been noticing. Radio 1 did it every 5 years or so throughout the 80s, 90s and noughties and got loads of shit for it every time.

    This is the same old thing. It seems mad when it happens, but looking back imagine if Radio 1 were still like the days of Tony Blackburn. Just one of those things. It’s nothing new. It’s one of the inevitable sadnesses of getting old.
    If that be the case and they don't want to appeal to the likes of me, why should I have to pay the license fee?
    You don't have to. If you consume it you pay for it, if you don't you don't have to. Isn't that what Conservatives believe in?
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,551

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    RIP A QUESTION OF SPORT. according to GB breaking news. The BBC were mad to axe Sue Barker

    Yet another reason not to pay the BBC license

    It is the below-inflation (and pledge-breaking) licence fee increase announced this week that has made the BBC look to axe expensive but failing shows like A Question of Sport. iirc they have a £90 million funding gap to fill.
    Nonsense. It's making stupid decisions and axing popular presenters. It's the way the BBC is going. If the license fee went, the BBC would implode. Who would pay to watch the woke shite that is the BBC.
    “Woke”

    Can we add woke to the Conservative home banishment list along with colour me, says hi and the rest of them?
    Woke Shite is an apt description of the BBC right now. Woke stays. Sorry
    Yeah. Agree. It’s useful. There’s a correlation between (1) those that use the word and (2) reactionary bellends whose viewpoints can be safely disregarded.
    You are obviously too young to remember the excellent stuff the BBC used to produce. I justvscroll past most of the output. I have moved to the little that is decent that can be recorded to avoid incessant adverts and trailers.
    I’m 50 in 2 weeks. If I’m “too young” to remember any of the good stuff then it’s been shit a helluva long time.
    It has a good 20 yrs
    So, since I was about 30? I can remember those days pretty well.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,477
    edited December 2023
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-the-united-kingdom/

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-france-2010---2021-/

    Look at absolute numbers. Then look at the graph for each country, up to 2016 and then from 2016 onwards.
    Lies, damned lies and statistics. Do you believe that per capita purchasing power was that much higher in France than the UK before Brexit?
  • Options

    Council Election post LE 2023 to date

    Aggregate Results of the 115 Council By-Elections (for 116 Seats) Since LE2023:

    LAB: 40 (-1)
    LDM: 33 (+15)
    CON: 16 (-15)
    GRN: 13 (+4)
    IND: 8 (+3)
    LOC: 5 (-2)
    PLC: 1 (=)
    SNP: 0 (-4)

    Green Tories a very poor 4th!
    You being a Tory and me not being a Tory its quite bizarre you would think the Greens are Tories

    Maybe you are just a bit thick
    You are a Tory because you want Sunak to win.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,806

    Council Election post LE 2023 to date

    Aggregate Results of the 115 Council By-Elections (for 116 Seats) Since LE2023:

    LAB: 40 (-1)
    LDM: 33 (+15)
    CON: 16 (-15)
    GRN: 13 (+4)
    IND: 8 (+3)
    LOC: 5 (-2)
    PLC: 1 (=)
    SNP: 0 (-4)

    Green Tories a very poor 4th!
    You being a Tory and me not being a Tory its quite bizarre you would think the Greens are Tories

    Maybe you are just a bit thick
    I'm sure Dr Sunil Prasannan PhD will feel duly bound to accept the aspersions cast on his intellect by somebody who uncritically posts material from notorious conspiracy theorist, forger and liar Craig Murray.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,088
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-the-united-kingdom/

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-france-2010---2021-/

    Look at absolute numbers. Then look at the graph for each country, up to 2016 and then from 2016 onwards.




    Britain has undoubtedly suffered from Brexit. Tho I would argue our under-performance dates more from the GFC

    Either way it was the belief of Leavers like me that after initial pain, Brexit would start to benefit us, in comparison to the more sluggish EU - despite all the hassles with trade etc

    That may just be happening, the first glimmers. Could be an illusion. Yet if it is the case it will upend the whole political debate as we’ve known it ever since 2016
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 8,256
    For more on the Giuliani case: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/15/rudy-giuliani-pay-damages-election-workers-defamation-trial

    And I hope the same happens to everyone else involved in spreading lies about election fraud. The mills of justice grind slowly, yet they grind exceedingly small.

    Perhaps if this and similar cases had happened a year ago, they might just have gotten through to the brainwashed MAGA cultists.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,088

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-the-united-kingdom/

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-france-2010---2021-/

    Look at absolute numbers. Then look at the graph for each country, up to 2016 and then from 2016 onwards.
    Lies, damned lies and statistics. Do you believe that per capita purchasing power was that much higher in France than the UK before Brexit?
    Yes, that bit is particularly nonsensical
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,027
    Thanks for the explanation Sir Keir

    That's all clear now

    https://twitter.com/Hammer_On_X/status/1735711452168691753
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    viewcode said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    RIP A QUESTION OF SPORT. according to GB breaking news. The BBC were mad to axe Sue Barker

    Yet another reason not to pay the BBC license

    It is the below-inflation (and pledge-breaking) licence fee increase announced this week that has made the BBC look to axe expensive but failing shows like A Question of Sport. iirc they have a £90 million funding gap to fill.
    Nonsense. It's making stupid decisions and axing popular presenters. It's the way the BBC is going. If the license fee went, the BBC would implode. Who would pay to watch the woke shite that is the BBC.
    “Woke”

    Can we add woke to the Conservative home banishment list along with colour me, says hi and the rest of them?
    Woke Shite is an apt description of the BBC right now. Woke stays. Sorry
    Yeah. Agree. It’s useful. There’s a correlation between (1) those that use the word and (2) reactionary bellends whose viewpoints can be safely disregarded.
    You are obviously too young to remember the excellent stuff the BBC used to produce. I justvscroll past most of the output. I have moved to the little that is decent that can be recorded to avoid incessant adverts and trailers.
    I’m 50 in 2 weeks. If I’m “too young” to remember any of the good stuff then it’s been shit a helluva long time.
    Possibly. Edge of Darkness was in 1985ish. You would have been 11 or 12. Blackadder was the 80s. It's been a long downhill slide since then. It wasn't always bad journalism and reality shows.
    I watched an episode of BlackAdder II last night - ‘Head’. Watched them originally when I was a 4th year junior in 86. Could still recite it word for
    word. Absolute quality

  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,822
    isam said:

    algarkirk said:

    isam said:

    algarkirk said:

    IanB2 said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I think I said all this in my last contribution so thanks for catching up.

    Talking to a despairing ex-Conservative colleague at lunch time, I was able to offer him some hope. Even if it takes two defeats, it's still likely (though not certain) the Conservatives will be the only viable alternative Government.

    Opposition to Starmer will emerge, perhaps quickly, perhaps slowly. That opposition will be around what the Government does or tries to do rather than re-fighting the battles of 2010-24 (and especially 2016-24) and the Conservatives will need to focus their energies on what the Government is or isn't about rather than what should have happened before. IF the Conservatives remain rooted in and obsessed by rhe battles of their time in Government, opposition to Starmer will default to the LDs, Greens and others.

    The world of the mid-2030s will have plenty of challenges and an adroit opposition will have plenty of issues on which to attack the Government but the one thing they can't afford is self-indulgence in opposition otherwise Labour won't be in for 10 years but 15 or perhaps longer.

    If he’s an ex-Conservative, he shouldn’t despair, so?
    Depends.

    If they're in the category where the c in conservative is small, then there's a lot to despair about. One nation wet conservatism has been on life support for a while and the noise from the monitoring machine doesn't sound promising. See the waving through of the Rwanda (whatever you say, Prime Minister) bill this week.

    And whilst they remain the main opposition, the position of the Conservative Party is a lot more vulnerable than Labour's state in 2019. They had a plausible front bench in exile. The Conservatives don't, really- hence the need to drape Dave in ermine. And the age profile of every level of conservatism skews much older than in the past. Much older. Unless they snap out of it PDQ in opposition, there's a non trivial risk that there won't be much party to save.
    This is true, except for the continuing reality that there remains no belief among politicians or the public that there is any alternative to Labour and tory being first and second in general elections.

    What is startling is this: In 2019 the Tories got 43.6% of the vote. The low end of current projections is that they will get just over half of that figure (YouGov latest, 22%).

    While I don't think that will occur, it absolutely is not impossible; as at the moment in place of trying to do grown up centrist politics which might impress the thoughtful One Nation volk they are trying but failing to do populist politics.

    Which keeps reminding believers in simple solutions to complex realities that Reform, by not having to make decisions, do it much more impressively. Hence the high polling for the party no-one has heard of and the desertion of the thoughtful.
    I know I am banging the same old drum and no one else here gives it any credence at all, but it amazes me that no one considers the reason the Tories were polling 18% in 2019, are polling 22% now, yet those scores bookended a landslide election victory where they polled 43% might be the lame duck leaders they had either side of the election winner.

    Maybe it’s not EVERYTHING, but if it wasn’t for me, readers on here would genuinely think Boris was a drag on them, which defies any sensible reading of the last 5 years of Tory polling
    This robust analysis misses bits out.

    1) Before Boris stepped down the polling was consistently against him - not as awful as now but not good.

    2) Boris stepped down because he had lost his own party and the public. He lost it all because of things which would have been very simply avoided to someone who had moral sense, political antennae, and common sense. Many who voted for him expected him to rise to the occasion pf being PM out of pure self interest. The critics who said he could not were right. I and millions of others were wrong.

    3) While all politics is relative, the fact that those before and after Boris were and are terrible does not make him good. He did well in GE 2019 because he had not yet trashed his own opportunity, there was no alternative way of doing Brexit (partly because of his own tactics) and no-one wanted the friend of Hamas in Downing Street. (And because Boris was and is a flawed genius)
    1) The Polling when he left was better than when he took over, and better than it is now
    2) He lost the support of his MPs, a lot of whom regret getting rid now. Tory members and 2019 voters still prefer him to any other option according to the betting markets when he looked like running against Sunak ( Boris was odds on) and R&Ws polling
    3) Yes I take your point. My contention is that anyone looking on without revisionist history in mind would just see 18%-43%-22% and think “Why’d they get rid of the 43%er?” As I said it’s not EVERYTHING, but people on here literally dismiss it, which I think is weird

    All nonsense anyway, it is what it is.
    Fair points, but you miss out that Boris blew himself up by needlessly behaving in ways which were going to destroy him as and when he was found out. This is amazing but true. In all sorts of ways he was great. But the second, still emerging, failing is that he failed to surround himself with a solid body of really expert advice so that he could exercise his fantastic presentational and inspirational skills while also running a more or less coherent government.

    Everyone who was around him was either a nightmare themselves or found him a nightmare. Or both. This is neither irrelevant nor a coincidence.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,806
    isam said:

    viewcode said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    RIP A QUESTION OF SPORT. according to GB breaking news. The BBC were mad to axe Sue Barker

    Yet another reason not to pay the BBC license

    It is the below-inflation (and pledge-breaking) licence fee increase announced this week that has made the BBC look to axe expensive but failing shows like A Question of Sport. iirc they have a £90 million funding gap to fill.
    Nonsense. It's making stupid decisions and axing popular presenters. It's the way the BBC is going. If the license fee went, the BBC would implode. Who would pay to watch the woke shite that is the BBC.
    “Woke”

    Can we add woke to the Conservative home banishment list along with colour me, says hi and the rest of them?
    Woke Shite is an apt description of the BBC right now. Woke stays. Sorry
    Yeah. Agree. It’s useful. There’s a correlation between (1) those that use the word and (2) reactionary bellends whose viewpoints can be safely disregarded.
    You are obviously too young to remember the excellent stuff the BBC used to produce. I justvscroll past most of the output. I have moved to the little that is decent that can be recorded to avoid incessant adverts and trailers.
    I’m 50 in 2 weeks. If I’m “too young” to remember any of the good stuff then it’s been shit a helluva long time.
    Possibly. Edge of Darkness was in 1985ish. You would have been 11 or 12. Blackadder was the 80s. It's been a long downhill slide since then. It wasn't always bad journalism and reality shows.
    I watched an episode of BlackAdder II last night - ‘Head’. Watched them originally when I was a 4th year junior in 86. Could still recite it word for
    word. Absolute quality

    Boom, Boom, Boom?
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,027

    Council Election post LE 2023 to date

    Aggregate Results of the 115 Council By-Elections (for 116 Seats) Since LE2023:

    LAB: 40 (-1)
    LDM: 33 (+15)
    CON: 16 (-15)
    GRN: 13 (+4)
    IND: 8 (+3)
    LOC: 5 (-2)
    PLC: 1 (=)
    SNP: 0 (-4)

    Green Tories a very poor 4th!
    You being a Tory and me not being a Tory its quite bizarre you would think the Greens are Tories

    Maybe you are just a bit thick
    You are a Tory because you want Sunak to win.
    I want Socialism to win hence why I will be voting Green

    Or as you put it the Green Tories FFS mate what are you on
  • Options
    CatManCatMan Posts: 2,872
    kjh said:

    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    RIP A QUESTION OF SPORT. according to GB breaking news. The BBC were mad to axe Sue Barker

    Yet another reason not to pay the BBC license

    It is the below-inflation (and pledge-breaking) licence fee increase announced this week that has made the BBC look to axe expensive but failing shows like A Question of Sport. iirc they have a £90 million funding gap to fill.
    Why is QoS expensive? I'd expect it to be quite cheap to make - unless the panelists earn an f'load.
    OK. Maybe it is just easy to axe. QoS is mainly a few panellists and the rights to sports clips.
    It was axed because the BBC doesn't really like that section of its audience which watches QoS, and would rather chase the market share of 'people who don't watch telly'. Because that's the kind of decisions you can make due to the unique way the BBC is funded.
    Media companies having been annoying people by axing things older people like in favour of incomprehensible stuff to appeal to “youth” since as long as I’ve been noticing. Radio 1 did it every 5 years or so throughout the 80s, 90s and noughties and got loads of shit for it every time.

    This is the same old thing. It seems mad when it happens, but looking back imagine if Radio 1 were still like the days of Tony Blackburn. Just one of those things. It’s nothing new. It’s one of the inevitable sadnesses of getting old.
    If that be the case and they don't want to appeal to the likes of me, why should I have to pay the license fee?
    You don't have to. If you consume it you pay for it, if you don't you don't have to. Isn't that what Conservatives believe in?
    That's not true though. You need a a license to watch any live TV, not just BBC.

    Of course you could simply not bother with a license and watch it anyway, and tell anybody from TV Licence Enforcement who show up at your home to sod off, since they have no legal right of entry without your permission.
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,036

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon asked on a previous thread:

    "Is there any other pain we voluntarily revisit? Not sure there is. It makes us feel alive?"

    To which the answer is childbirth.

    I'll take your word for it.

    Watched it a couple of times. Can't say I fancied it myself.
    I've been there four times. My wife would only listen to my instructions amid the cacophony. Quite a responsibility.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,027
    ydoethur said:

    Council Election post LE 2023 to date

    Aggregate Results of the 115 Council By-Elections (for 116 Seats) Since LE2023:

    LAB: 40 (-1)
    LDM: 33 (+15)
    CON: 16 (-15)
    GRN: 13 (+4)
    IND: 8 (+3)
    LOC: 5 (-2)
    PLC: 1 (=)
    SNP: 0 (-4)

    Green Tories a very poor 4th!
    You being a Tory and me not being a Tory its quite bizarre you would think the Greens are Tories

    Maybe you are just a bit thick
    I'm sure Dr Sunil Prasannan PhD will feel duly bound to accept the aspersions cast on his intellect by somebody who uncritically posts material from notorious conspiracy theorist, forger and liar Craig Murray.
    ydoethur said:

    Council Election post LE 2023 to date

    Aggregate Results of the 115 Council By-Elections (for 116 Seats) Since LE2023:

    LAB: 40 (-1)
    LDM: 33 (+15)
    CON: 16 (-15)
    GRN: 13 (+4)
    IND: 8 (+3)
    LOC: 5 (-2)
    PLC: 1 (=)
    SNP: 0 (-4)

    Green Tories a very poor 4th!
    You being a Tory and me not being a Tory its quite bizarre you would think the Greens are Tories

    Maybe you are just a bit thick
    I'm sure Dr Sunil Prasannan PhD will feel duly bound to accept the aspersions cast on his intellect by somebody who uncritically posts material from notorious conspiracy theorist, forger and liar Craig Murray.
    That is relevant to whether the Greens are Tories or not Why?

    Shall we put you down as thinking the Greens are Tories as well?

    TBH the meetings i have attended since joining, most of them are fellow Socialists, but hey Dr PhD must know best
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,402
    isam said:

    viewcode said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    RIP A QUESTION OF SPORT. according to GB breaking news. The BBC were mad to axe Sue Barker

    Yet another reason not to pay the BBC license

    It is the below-inflation (and pledge-breaking) licence fee increase announced this week that has made the BBC look to axe expensive but failing shows like A Question of Sport. iirc they have a £90 million funding gap to fill.
    Nonsense. It's making stupid decisions and axing popular presenters. It's the way the BBC is going. If the license fee went, the BBC would implode. Who would pay to watch the woke shite that is the BBC.
    “Woke”

    Can we add woke to the Conservative home banishment list along with colour me, says hi and the rest of them?
    Woke Shite is an apt description of the BBC right now. Woke stays. Sorry
    Yeah. Agree. It’s useful. There’s a correlation between (1) those that use the word and (2) reactionary bellends whose viewpoints can be safely disregarded.
    You are obviously too young to remember the excellent stuff the BBC used to produce. I justvscroll past most of the output. I have moved to the little that is decent that can be recorded to avoid incessant adverts and trailers.
    I’m 50 in 2 weeks. If I’m “too young” to remember any of the good stuff then it’s been shit a helluva long time.
    Possibly. Edge of Darkness was in 1985ish. You would have been 11 or 12. Blackadder was the 80s. It's been a long downhill slide since then. It wasn't always bad journalism and reality shows.
    I watched an episode of BlackAdder II last night - ‘Head’. Watched them originally when I was a 4th year junior in 86. Could still recite it word for
    word. Absolute quality

    My 15 year old daughter finds Blackadder 2 very funny.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,822

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    RIP A QUESTION OF SPORT. according to GB breaking news. The BBC were mad to axe Sue Barker

    Yet another reason not to pay the BBC license

    It is the below-inflation (and pledge-breaking) licence fee increase announced this week that has made the BBC look to axe expensive but failing shows like A Question of Sport. iirc they have a £90 million funding gap to fill.
    Why is QoS expensive? I'd expect it to be quite cheap to make - unless the panelists earn an f'load.
    OK. Maybe it is just easy to axe. QoS is mainly a few panellists and the rights to sports clips.
    It was axed because the BBC doesn't really like that section of its audience which watches QoS, and would rather chase the market share of 'people who don't watch telly'. Because that's the kind of decisions you can make due to the unique way the BBC is funded.
    Media companies having been annoying people by axing things older people like in favour of incomprehensible stuff to appeal to “youth” since as long as I’ve been noticing. Radio 1 did it every 5 years or so throughout the 80s, 90s and noughties and got loads of shit for it every time.

    This is the same old thing. It seems mad when it happens, but looking back imagine if Radio 1 were still like the days of Tony Blackburn. Just one of those things. It’s nothing new. It’s one of the inevitable sadnesses of getting old.
    If that be the case and they don't want to appeal to the likes of me, why should I have to pay the license fee?
    You don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone. Look through the listings.
    I have and its gone.. there is little left. The BBC is full of repeats that one has seen many times before. Its crap and its getting worse. I don't want to.pay for it and I shouldn't have to. Let the BBC be subject to being answerable to their decisions and collaping viewing figures.and incompetence.
    BBC telly is more or less a sideshow. BBC radio is indispensable.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,806
    edited December 2023

    ydoethur said:

    Council Election post LE 2023 to date

    Aggregate Results of the 115 Council By-Elections (for 116 Seats) Since LE2023:

    LAB: 40 (-1)
    LDM: 33 (+15)
    CON: 16 (-15)
    GRN: 13 (+4)
    IND: 8 (+3)
    LOC: 5 (-2)
    PLC: 1 (=)
    SNP: 0 (-4)

    Green Tories a very poor 4th!
    You being a Tory and me not being a Tory its quite bizarre you would think the Greens are Tories

    Maybe you are just a bit thick
    I'm sure Dr Sunil Prasannan PhD will feel duly bound to accept the aspersions cast on his intellect by somebody who uncritically posts material from notorious conspiracy theorist, forger and liar Craig Murray.
    ydoethur said:

    Council Election post LE 2023 to date

    Aggregate Results of the 115 Council By-Elections (for 116 Seats) Since LE2023:

    LAB: 40 (-1)
    LDM: 33 (+15)
    CON: 16 (-15)
    GRN: 13 (+4)
    IND: 8 (+3)
    LOC: 5 (-2)
    PLC: 1 (=)
    SNP: 0 (-4)

    Green Tories a very poor 4th!
    You being a Tory and me not being a Tory its quite bizarre you would think the Greens are Tories

    Maybe you are just a bit thick
    I'm sure Dr Sunil Prasannan PhD will feel duly bound to accept the aspersions cast on his intellect by somebody who uncritically posts material from notorious conspiracy theorist, forger and liar Craig Murray.
    That is relevant to whether the Greens are Tories or not Why?

    Shall we put you down as thinking the Greens are Tories as well?

    TBH the meetings i have attended since joining, most of them are fellow Socialists, but hey Dr PhD must know best
    He certainly does know better than you that the Greens are ultimately not interested in the victory of the left. And that means in our system they end by aiding the right.

    And that's said without malice.

    Edit - and being an admirer of Putin's followers doesn't exactly help your case for being a good socialist.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,140

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-the-united-kingdom/

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-france-2010---2021-/

    Look at absolute numbers. Then look at the graph for each country, up to 2016 and then from 2016 onwards.
    Lies, damned lies and statistics. Do you believe that per capita purchasing power was that much higher in France than the UK before Brexit?
    Yes. I’ve seen it myself. Living standards and disposable income are similar across the majority of provincial France to outer London and the Home Counties. And they had nothing like the recessionary contraction we did from the financial crisis.

    I think it’s hard living in inner London to appreciate just how poor most of our country is.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 8,256


    Interesting?
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,027
    ydoethur said:

    Council Election post LE 2023 to date

    Aggregate Results of the 115 Council By-Elections (for 116 Seats) Since LE2023:

    LAB: 40 (-1)
    LDM: 33 (+15)
    CON: 16 (-15)
    GRN: 13 (+4)
    IND: 8 (+3)
    LOC: 5 (-2)
    PLC: 1 (=)
    SNP: 0 (-4)

    Green Tories a very poor 4th!
    You being a Tory and me not being a Tory its quite bizarre you would think the Greens are Tories

    Maybe you are just a bit thick
    I'm sure Dr Sunil Prasannan PhD will feel duly bound to accept the aspersions cast on his intellect by somebody who uncritically posts material from notorious conspiracy theorist, forger and liar Craig Murray.
    You trust the IDF word as gospel despite them being all of the above
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,551

    ydoethur said:

    Council Election post LE 2023 to date

    Aggregate Results of the 115 Council By-Elections (for 116 Seats) Since LE2023:

    LAB: 40 (-1)
    LDM: 33 (+15)
    CON: 16 (-15)
    GRN: 13 (+4)
    IND: 8 (+3)
    LOC: 5 (-2)
    PLC: 1 (=)
    SNP: 0 (-4)

    Green Tories a very poor 4th!
    You being a Tory and me not being a Tory its quite bizarre you would think the Greens are Tories

    Maybe you are just a bit thick
    I'm sure Dr Sunil Prasannan PhD will feel duly bound to accept the aspersions cast on his intellect by somebody who uncritically posts material from notorious conspiracy theorist, forger and liar Craig Murray.
    ydoethur said:

    Council Election post LE 2023 to date

    Aggregate Results of the 115 Council By-Elections (for 116 Seats) Since LE2023:

    LAB: 40 (-1)
    LDM: 33 (+15)
    CON: 16 (-15)
    GRN: 13 (+4)
    IND: 8 (+3)
    LOC: 5 (-2)
    PLC: 1 (=)
    SNP: 0 (-4)

    Green Tories a very poor 4th!
    You being a Tory and me not being a Tory its quite bizarre you would think the Greens are Tories

    Maybe you are just a bit thick
    I'm sure Dr Sunil Prasannan PhD will feel duly bound to accept the aspersions cast on his intellect by somebody who uncritically posts material from notorious conspiracy theorist, forger and liar Craig Murray.
    That is relevant to whether the Greens are Tories or not Why?

    Shall we put you down as thinking the Greens are Tories as well?

    TBH the meetings i have attended since joining, most of them are fellow Socialists, but hey Dr PhD must know best
    The Greens prop up Tory councils. That’s some amazing mental gymnastics to regard them as “socialists”

    https://www.lancs.live/news/lancashire-news/green-party-deal-puts-tories-26884628

    The idea that you’re a “socialist” is laughable given your output on here and your membership of an opportunistic pressure group that will jump into bed with any party.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,699
    edited December 2023

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-the-united-kingdom/

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-france-2010---2021-/

    Look at absolute numbers. Then look at the graph for each country, up to 2016 and then from 2016 onwards.
    Lies, damned lies and statistics. Do you believe that per capita purchasing power was that much higher in France than the UK before Brexit?
    No, you’re not understanding the data.

    Average incomes aren’t that different in the UK and France.

    Median incomes - which is what you are looking at in those links - are very significantly higher in France.

    The reason is that a significantly greater proportion of the UK’s total income goes to the more wealthy - I.E. the Uk is significantly more unequal - hence the guy (or gal) in the middle of the range is significantly worse off in Britain (as are those nearer the bottom, although this doesn’t show from that data).

    This also shows in regional data - London is a high income area, whereas the North East has an average income lower than some parts of former communist Eastern Europe.
  • Options

    Council Election post LE 2023 to date

    Aggregate Results of the 115 Council By-Elections (for 116 Seats) Since LE2023:

    LAB: 40 (-1)
    LDM: 33 (+15)
    CON: 16 (-15)
    GRN: 13 (+4)
    IND: 8 (+3)
    LOC: 5 (-2)
    PLC: 1 (=)
    SNP: 0 (-4)

    Green Tories a very poor 4th!
    You being a Tory and me not being a Tory its quite bizarre you would think the Greens are Tories

    Maybe you are just a bit thick
    You are a Tory because you want Sunak to win.
    I want Socialism to win hence why I will be voting Green

    Or as you put it the Green Tories FFS mate what are you on
    Vote Green, get Sunak. BJO = Tory.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,027
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Council Election post LE 2023 to date

    Aggregate Results of the 115 Council By-Elections (for 116 Seats) Since LE2023:

    LAB: 40 (-1)
    LDM: 33 (+15)
    CON: 16 (-15)
    GRN: 13 (+4)
    IND: 8 (+3)
    LOC: 5 (-2)
    PLC: 1 (=)
    SNP: 0 (-4)

    Green Tories a very poor 4th!
    You being a Tory and me not being a Tory its quite bizarre you would think the Greens are Tories

    Maybe you are just a bit thick
    I'm sure Dr Sunil Prasannan PhD will feel duly bound to accept the aspersions cast on his intellect by somebody who uncritically posts material from notorious conspiracy theorist, forger and liar Craig Murray.
    ydoethur said:

    Council Election post LE 2023 to date

    Aggregate Results of the 115 Council By-Elections (for 116 Seats) Since LE2023:

    LAB: 40 (-1)
    LDM: 33 (+15)
    CON: 16 (-15)
    GRN: 13 (+4)
    IND: 8 (+3)
    LOC: 5 (-2)
    PLC: 1 (=)
    SNP: 0 (-4)

    Green Tories a very poor 4th!
    You being a Tory and me not being a Tory its quite bizarre you would think the Greens are Tories

    Maybe you are just a bit thick
    I'm sure Dr Sunil Prasannan PhD will feel duly bound to accept the aspersions cast on his intellect by somebody who uncritically posts material from notorious conspiracy theorist, forger and liar Craig Murray.
    That is relevant to whether the Greens are Tories or not Why?

    Shall we put you down as thinking the Greens are Tories as well?

    TBH the meetings i have attended since joining, most of them are fellow Socialists, but hey Dr PhD must know best
    He certainly does know better than you that the Greens are ultimately not interested in the victory of the left. And that means in our system they end by aiding the right.

    And that's said without malice.

    Edit - and being an admirer of Putin's followers doesn't exactly help your case for being a good socialist.
    Are they Tories?

    Simple yes or no will suffice.

    TIA
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,551

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Council Election post LE 2023 to date

    Aggregate Results of the 115 Council By-Elections (for 116 Seats) Since LE2023:

    LAB: 40 (-1)
    LDM: 33 (+15)
    CON: 16 (-15)
    GRN: 13 (+4)
    IND: 8 (+3)
    LOC: 5 (-2)
    PLC: 1 (=)
    SNP: 0 (-4)

    Green Tories a very poor 4th!
    You being a Tory and me not being a Tory its quite bizarre you would think the Greens are Tories

    Maybe you are just a bit thick
    I'm sure Dr Sunil Prasannan PhD will feel duly bound to accept the aspersions cast on his intellect by somebody who uncritically posts material from notorious conspiracy theorist, forger and liar Craig Murray.
    ydoethur said:

    Council Election post LE 2023 to date

    Aggregate Results of the 115 Council By-Elections (for 116 Seats) Since LE2023:

    LAB: 40 (-1)
    LDM: 33 (+15)
    CON: 16 (-15)
    GRN: 13 (+4)
    IND: 8 (+3)
    LOC: 5 (-2)
    PLC: 1 (=)
    SNP: 0 (-4)

    Green Tories a very poor 4th!
    You being a Tory and me not being a Tory its quite bizarre you would think the Greens are Tories

    Maybe you are just a bit thick
    I'm sure Dr Sunil Prasannan PhD will feel duly bound to accept the aspersions cast on his intellect by somebody who uncritically posts material from notorious conspiracy theorist, forger and liar Craig Murray.
    That is relevant to whether the Greens are Tories or not Why?

    Shall we put you down as thinking the Greens are Tories as well?

    TBH the meetings i have attended since joining, most of them are fellow Socialists, but hey Dr PhD must know best
    He certainly does know better than you that the Greens are ultimately not interested in the victory of the left. And that means in our system they end by aiding the right.

    And that's said without malice.

    Edit - and being an admirer of Putin's followers doesn't exactly help your case for being a good socialist.
    Are they Tories?

    Simple yes or no will suffice.

    TIA
    Yes. They are -

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/lancaster-city-council-tory-green-party-b1849425.html
  • Options
    Leon said:

    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING

    In the seven years to Q3 2023 the UK economy has grown by 8% while the EU27 has grown by 11% and the Euro Area by 10%. By contrast in the 10 years to Q2 2016 the UK economy grew by 15%, the EU27 by 8% and the Euro Area by 7%. We have gone from one of the strongest growing major economies in the EU to underperforming both the EU and the Euro Area. We are, it is true, currently doing better than Germany. That reflects the impact of the energy shock on them. Italy is currently doing better than Germany too. Perhaps that is because of Brexit.
    For sure if we start to perform much better than the EU then the narrative around Brexit will change. But that isn't happening yet, and to my mind is quite unlikely to happen.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,806

    ydoethur said:

    Council Election post LE 2023 to date

    Aggregate Results of the 115 Council By-Elections (for 116 Seats) Since LE2023:

    LAB: 40 (-1)
    LDM: 33 (+15)
    CON: 16 (-15)
    GRN: 13 (+4)
    IND: 8 (+3)
    LOC: 5 (-2)
    PLC: 1 (=)
    SNP: 0 (-4)

    Green Tories a very poor 4th!
    You being a Tory and me not being a Tory its quite bizarre you would think the Greens are Tories

    Maybe you are just a bit thick
    I'm sure Dr Sunil Prasannan PhD will feel duly bound to accept the aspersions cast on his intellect by somebody who uncritically posts material from notorious conspiracy theorist, forger and liar Craig Murray.
    You trust the IDF word as gospel despite them being all of the above
    No. I assume they are not telling the truth, or at least, a highly distorted version of it. Just as I do Hamas. As I said at the outset, if you see heroes or good guys on either side in this conflict, you need an eye test (and not one devised by Cummings).

    I also assume that a man who has infamously never told the truth in his life, promotes neo-Nazi conspiracy theories and schills for Fascist regimes will not be telling the truth. But you don't make that assumption. Because he fits your prejudices.

    Something really unpleasant has happened to you, and it's frankly disturbing to watch. It's Plato with added nastiness.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,221
     

    Thanks for the explanation Sir Keir

    That's all clear now

    https://twitter.com/Hammer_On_X/status/1735711452168691753

    The great hope of the left exposed in the searchlight of a simple question
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,806

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Council Election post LE 2023 to date

    Aggregate Results of the 115 Council By-Elections (for 116 Seats) Since LE2023:

    LAB: 40 (-1)
    LDM: 33 (+15)
    CON: 16 (-15)
    GRN: 13 (+4)
    IND: 8 (+3)
    LOC: 5 (-2)
    PLC: 1 (=)
    SNP: 0 (-4)

    Green Tories a very poor 4th!
    You being a Tory and me not being a Tory its quite bizarre you would think the Greens are Tories

    Maybe you are just a bit thick
    I'm sure Dr Sunil Prasannan PhD will feel duly bound to accept the aspersions cast on his intellect by somebody who uncritically posts material from notorious conspiracy theorist, forger and liar Craig Murray.
    ydoethur said:

    Council Election post LE 2023 to date

    Aggregate Results of the 115 Council By-Elections (for 116 Seats) Since LE2023:

    LAB: 40 (-1)
    LDM: 33 (+15)
    CON: 16 (-15)
    GRN: 13 (+4)
    IND: 8 (+3)
    LOC: 5 (-2)
    PLC: 1 (=)
    SNP: 0 (-4)

    Green Tories a very poor 4th!
    You being a Tory and me not being a Tory its quite bizarre you would think the Greens are Tories

    Maybe you are just a bit thick
    I'm sure Dr Sunil Prasannan PhD will feel duly bound to accept the aspersions cast on his intellect by somebody who uncritically posts material from notorious conspiracy theorist, forger and liar Craig Murray.
    That is relevant to whether the Greens are Tories or not Why?

    Shall we put you down as thinking the Greens are Tories as well?

    TBH the meetings i have attended since joining, most of them are fellow Socialists, but hey Dr PhD must know best
    He certainly does know better than you that the Greens are ultimately not interested in the victory of the left. And that means in our system they end by aiding the right.

    And that's said without malice.

    Edit - and being an admirer of Putin's followers doesn't exactly help your case for being a good socialist.
    Are they Tories?

    Simple yes or no will suffice.

    TIA
    Yes.

    As are you.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,776
    CatMan said:

    kjh said:

    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    RIP A QUESTION OF SPORT. according to GB breaking news. The BBC were mad to axe Sue Barker

    Yet another reason not to pay the BBC license

    It is the below-inflation (and pledge-breaking) licence fee increase announced this week that has made the BBC look to axe expensive but failing shows like A Question of Sport. iirc they have a £90 million funding gap to fill.
    Why is QoS expensive? I'd expect it to be quite cheap to make - unless the panelists earn an f'load.
    OK. Maybe it is just easy to axe. QoS is mainly a few panellists and the rights to sports clips.
    It was axed because the BBC doesn't really like that section of its audience which watches QoS, and would rather chase the market share of 'people who don't watch telly'. Because that's the kind of decisions you can make due to the unique way the BBC is funded.
    Media companies having been annoying people by axing things older people like in favour of incomprehensible stuff to appeal to “youth” since as long as I’ve been noticing. Radio 1 did it every 5 years or so throughout the 80s, 90s and noughties and got loads of shit for it every time.

    This is the same old thing. It seems mad when it happens, but looking back imagine if Radio 1 were still like the days of Tony Blackburn. Just one of those things. It’s nothing new. It’s one of the inevitable sadnesses of getting old.
    If that be the case and they don't want to appeal to the likes of me, why should I have to pay the license fee?
    You don't have to. If you consume it you pay for it, if you don't you don't have to. Isn't that what Conservatives believe in?
    That's not true though. You need a a license to watch any live TV, not just BBC.

    Of course you could simply not bother with a license and watch it anyway, and tell anybody from TV Licence Enforcement who show up at your home to sod off, since they have no legal right of entry without your permission.
    Live being the appropriate word. We have a licence for one house. We don't for our other. There are plenty of alternatives without breaking the rules. It really isn't a big issue. Rather than whinging about paying for something that is voluntary, he should just stop and do something else. Nobody is making him. A bit like paying someone to punch you in the face. Just stop.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,140
    edited December 2023



    Interesting?

    Hungary wants transcarpathia from Ukraine. Bunch of scoundrels.

    I’d guess the Ukrainian response includes people wanting Crimea back.
  • Options

    ydoethur said:

    Council Election post LE 2023 to date

    Aggregate Results of the 115 Council By-Elections (for 116 Seats) Since LE2023:

    LAB: 40 (-1)
    LDM: 33 (+15)
    CON: 16 (-15)
    GRN: 13 (+4)
    IND: 8 (+3)
    LOC: 5 (-2)
    PLC: 1 (=)
    SNP: 0 (-4)

    Green Tories a very poor 4th!
    You being a Tory and me not being a Tory its quite bizarre you would think the Greens are Tories

    Maybe you are just a bit thick
    I'm sure Dr Sunil Prasannan PhD will feel duly bound to accept the aspersions cast on his intellect by somebody who uncritically posts material from notorious conspiracy theorist, forger and liar Craig Murray.
    You trust the IDF word as gospel despite them being all of the above
    Test:


  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,544
    If Labour just fall short of a majority, would the LDs be happy to go into coalition with them, or would they prefer to stay out of one, given what happened last time they entered a coalition in 2010?
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,027
    Jury Orders Giuliani to Pay $148 Million to Election Workers He Defamed

    Oh dear

    How sad

    Never mind
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,088
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-the-united-kingdom/

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-france-2010---2021-/

    Look at absolute numbers. Then look at the graph for each country, up to 2016 and then from 2016 onwards.
    Lies, damned lies and statistics. Do you believe that per capita purchasing power was that much higher in France than the UK before Brexit?
    Yes. I’ve seen it myself. Living standards and disposable income are similar across the majority of provincial France to outer London and the Home Counties. And they had nothing like the recessionary contraction we did from the financial crisis.

    I think it’s hard living in inner London to appreciate just how poor most of our country is.
    And I think it is nonsense. Provincial France sounds and looks nice (nicer than many chunks of the UK), and if you have a house in, say, the Burgundy region then it will certainly feel that France is considerably richer than the UK

    And yet if you go to the bainlieues around Lyon, Marseille or Paris, or in the east, then France will feel a lot poorer, and in places poorer than the UK

    As for these precise figures. I am wary. What is this median household fandangle? Is it simply what it says on the tin? The median average income for every household? Then there might several explanations for a disparity

    eg Single person households. Britain has many more than France, 30% of our households are single person, as aganst just 17% in France. That would surely bring down the median a fuck of a lot?

    I may be missing some major detail. Am still quite stoned and listening to neo-folk
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,806
    Actually, I think I was harsh.

    I would like to apologise, very humbly and sincerely, for comparing the Tories to the Greens, and I hope any Tories who were offended will forgive me.
  • Options
    MJWMJW Posts: 1,454
    Tres said:

    RIP A QUESTION OF SPORT. according to GB breaking news. The BBC were mad to axe Sue Barker

    Yet another reason not to pay the BBC license

    It is the below-inflation (and pledge-breaking) licence fee increase announced this week that has made the BBC look to axe expensive but failing shows like A Question of Sport. iirc they have a £90 million funding gap to fill.
    Why is QoS expensive? I'd expect it to be quite cheap to make - unless the panelists earn an f'load.
    it was dated 30 years ago - the only reason it's survived so long is precisely because it's cheap to make
    This is right. It's not been appointment viewing since the days of McCoist and Parrott, nor any good whatsoever since Tuffers. They've tried revamps (that weren't very 'woke' - whatever else he is, Paddy McGuinness isn't that) but ultimately its problem is the changing landscape of sport and media meant it lost its star power and relevance.

    From its inception until probably the early-2000s it could pretty much guarantee regular big names - playing or retired. It would be a disappointment when they had a jockey (except Dettori) or a swimmer on. Now? If you look at the episode guide if you've heard of people it's largely if they were around 20 years ago. Leon Osman appeared twice!

    Todays sports stars, unless they are reaching retirement and starting a media career so are saying 'yes' to everything, simply don't feel the need. Their schedules are more demanding, and they do a lot of media work of their own - either for themselves or promoting clubs and sponsors.

    If they do want to build a media career they have umpteen options - podcasts, streaming, and Sky. The latter who have in some ways killed QoS with A League of Their Own. Which took the basic idea, zazzed it up, threw money at it to secure big names and used Sky's roster of pundits. The BBC can't compete with their budget these days. They could get Flintoff to do Top Gear, with its big budget due to its commercial value, but not QoS. Nor arguably should they.

    It's sad. But everything comes to an end. And QoS has probably lasted far longer than it would or should have done without the residual affection for what it once was.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,822
    Cookie said:

    algarkirk said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    Cookie said:

    stodge said:

    IanB2 said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I think I said all this in my last contribution so thanks for catching up.

    Talking to a despairing ex-Conservative colleague at lunch time, I was able to offer him some hope. Even if it takes two defeats, it's still likely (though not certain) the Conservatives will be the only viable alternative Government.

    Opposition to Starmer will emerge, perhaps quickly, perhaps slowly. That opposition will be around what the Government does or tries to do rather than re-fighting the battles of 2010-24 (and especially 2016-24) and the Conservatives will need to focus their energies on what the Government is or isn't about rather than what should have happened before. IF the Conservatives remain rooted in and obsessed by rhe battles of their time in Government, opposition to Starmer will default to the LDs, Greens and others.

    The world of the mid-2030s will have plenty of challenges and an adroit opposition will have plenty of issues on which to attack the Government but the one thing they can't afford is self-indulgence in opposition otherwise Labour won't be in for 10 years but 15 or perhaps longer.

    If he’s an ex-Conservative, he shouldn’t despair, so?
    I would describe him as an old-fashioned Conservative who has been repulsed by the move to populism. He is despairing both in terms of a future Labour Government and the continuation of the present administration.
    Several of my Conservative friends are in the same mood. I suspect a few will hold their noses and vote Tory nonetheless, some will just sit the election out.
    Interestingly, I have just done a really weird yougov which might have been trying to dig into this.
    It asked if you considered yourself a Conservative, a Lib, a Lab, etc. After some thought, I answered in the spirit I think the question was intended and put 'Conservative'. It then asked why. After some thought, I answered that it's because despite their many faults they seem the only way of keeping the Labour Party out, and I fear the Labour Party more than I fear any other government.

    More interestingly still, it asked what I thought was the biggest issue facing the country today. Again, after some thought, I answered 'our inability to disagree civilly with one another'. Which I think is true; if we can manage to do that, everything else will fall into place.

    I can't imagine how they will code this survey.

    It also asked lots of questions to prove I was paying attention e.g. really simple questions, the same question worded two simple ways, etc.
    I struggle with the notion anyone can "fear" a Labour Government led by Starmer. Apprehension perhaps, frustration maybe but fear, seriously?

    I'd have thought five more years of the current Government a greater source of anxiety.
    He’s backtracked on almost everything he said to get elected as leader, just as he backtracked on his acceptance of the Brexit result once he got ejected as an MP in 2017. So that’s one thing to fear, that he’ll stay true to form and go back on his word on every policy in the manifesto

    For instance he pledged to fight for the right of FOM to get elected as leader, and now he’s equating open door immigration with low wages for the working class
    If you are in a political party, you sign up to the notion of collective responsibility. Have the Conservatives been wholly consistent since 2010? Hardly - you've had huge policy upheavals under Cameron, May, Truss and Johnson before Sunak. We now see for example commitments on house building targets ended by Gove (presumably because they think building houses in rural England is a vote loser) so let's not assume Labour is the only party which routinely changes policy on a whim?

    As for what Labour will have in its manifesto, it's as much of a mystery to me as well. I suspect it will be a pretty anodyne document which will give some plenty to complain about and Starmer plenty of room for manoeuvre.
    Yes, but the question was ’’What could anyone seriously fear about a Labour Party led by Starmer?’ not ‘Do all political parties lie to get elected?’

    Sir Keir has backtracked on pledges he made ‘As a matter of principle’ yet is treated as if he is the most honest man to walk the earth.

    Pre GE17 he said accepting the referendum result was ‘a matter of principle’

    Pre GE19 he said a second referendum in which he would campaign for Remain was ‘a really important point of principle’

    Pre Lab Leader Election he pledged to fight for the rights of Migrant workers and FOM

    Now he’s saying mass immigration lowers wages for the British working class

    So the answer to ‘What could anyone seriously fear about a Labour Party led by Starmer?’ is that he could do the complete opposite of what he promised to do in order to get your vote


    He is made of exactly the stuff successful politicians have to have - that mixture of the image of principle and the machinations of Machiavelli. IIRC the Economist recently was pointing out that the problem with chaps like Rory Stewart is that their principles are fine but they are no good at the sheer dirtiness of politics.

    As we need at least one electable leader and there are no other candidates for electability anywhere in sight, we should be grateful. Hopefully he will want election and reelection, and as he knows you only win from the centre, he can be mostly trusted.
    Reason to fear SKSLab #1: "we want more harder lockdowns".
    Reason to fear SKSLab #2: that picture of him and Ange jumping on the George Floyd bandwagon.
    Reason to fear SKSLab #3: his decrying the government not joining the EU vaccine scheme.
    These are just the first three that apring to mind.

    Sure, this government is shit. But SKSLab rarely misses an opportunity to indicate it will, given the chance, be shitter: it attacks it from the wrong side (e.g. lockdown), and rarely takes an opportunity to say it would reverse a bad decision by government (e.g. HS2).
    That is why I fear SKSLab. I expect it to make Britain less free, less productive and woker.

    OTOH, they have madesome vaguely encouraging noises about housing.
    Absolutely fair points. He's a politician, and has been skillful as well as lucky in getting where he now is. Only two parties can lead a government in the UK, and the current one has blown it. There is a fairly high chance that a Labour led government will be better than this one.

    They can hardly be worse in terms of image, general competence and presentation.
    They have a chance of reviewing sanely the Brexit situation.
    SKS is now, SFAICS, hated by the left.
    He has a reasonably decent team around him.
    He can't chuck away cash because he hasn't any.
    He isn't going to try to pass bills declaring North Korea to be a safe country and try to oust the court's jurisdiction.
    There isn't a One Nation Tory party available. He is the nearest thing we have.
    Labour does not talk in populist cliches, on the whole.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,088

    Leon said:

    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING

    In the seven years to Q3 2023 the UK economy has grown by 8% while the EU27 has grown by 11% and the Euro Area by 10%. By contrast in the 10 years to Q2 2016 the UK economy grew by 15%, the EU27 by 8% and the Euro Area by 7%. We have gone from one of the strongest growing major economies in the EU to underperforming both the EU and the Euro Area. We are, it is true, currently doing better than Germany. That reflects the impact of the energy shock on them. Italy is currently doing better than Germany too. Perhaps that is because of Brexit.
    For sure if we start to perform much better than the EU then the narrative around Brexit will change. But that isn't happening yet, and to my mind is quite unlikely to happen.
    We are now doing better than France and Germany, our near peers in the EU in terms of importance, size and population

    It may be a passing phenomenon, if it is not, then it changes a lot

    Italy's performance is interesting, what has gone right for them, all of a sudden? I thought they were fucked by Russian energy prices/non supply
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,699
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-the-united-kingdom/

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-france-2010---2021-/

    Look at absolute numbers. Then look at the graph for each country, up to 2016 and then from 2016 onwards.
    Lies, damned lies and statistics. Do you believe that per capita purchasing power was that much higher in France than the UK before Brexit?
    Yes. I’ve seen it myself. Living standards and disposable income are similar across the majority of provincial France to outer London and the Home Counties. And they had nothing like the recessionary contraction we did from the financial crisis.

    I think it’s hard living in inner London to appreciate just how poor most of our country is.
    And I think it is nonsense. Provincial France sounds and looks nice (nicer than many chunks of the UK), and if you have a house in, say, the Burgundy region then it will certainly feel that France is considerably richer than the UK

    And yet if you go to the bainlieues around Lyon, Marseille or Paris, or in the east, then France will feel a lot poorer, and in places poorer than the UK

    As for these precise figures. I am wary. What is this median household fandangle? Is it simply what it says on the tin? The median average income for every household? Then there might several explanations for a disparity

    eg Single person households. Britain has many more than France, 30% of our households are single person, as aganst just 17% in France. That would surely bring down the median a fuck of a lot?

    I may be missing some major detail. Am still quite stoned and listening to neo-folk
    The major detail you are missing is the definition of a median, which I suggest you go look up. When you understand it, you will see that much of your comment is gibberish.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,027
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Council Election post LE 2023 to date

    Aggregate Results of the 115 Council By-Elections (for 116 Seats) Since LE2023:

    LAB: 40 (-1)
    LDM: 33 (+15)
    CON: 16 (-15)
    GRN: 13 (+4)
    IND: 8 (+3)
    LOC: 5 (-2)
    PLC: 1 (=)
    SNP: 0 (-4)

    Green Tories a very poor 4th!
    You being a Tory and me not being a Tory its quite bizarre you would think the Greens are Tories

    Maybe you are just a bit thick
    I'm sure Dr Sunil Prasannan PhD will feel duly bound to accept the aspersions cast on his intellect by somebody who uncritically posts material from notorious conspiracy theorist, forger and liar Craig Murray.
    ydoethur said:

    Council Election post LE 2023 to date

    Aggregate Results of the 115 Council By-Elections (for 116 Seats) Since LE2023:

    LAB: 40 (-1)
    LDM: 33 (+15)
    CON: 16 (-15)
    GRN: 13 (+4)
    IND: 8 (+3)
    LOC: 5 (-2)
    PLC: 1 (=)
    SNP: 0 (-4)

    Green Tories a very poor 4th!
    You being a Tory and me not being a Tory its quite bizarre you would think the Greens are Tories

    Maybe you are just a bit thick
    I'm sure Dr Sunil Prasannan PhD will feel duly bound to accept the aspersions cast on his intellect by somebody who uncritically posts material from notorious conspiracy theorist, forger and liar Craig Murray.
    That is relevant to whether the Greens are Tories or not Why?

    Shall we put you down as thinking the Greens are Tories as well?

    TBH the meetings i have attended since joining, most of them are fellow Socialists, but hey Dr PhD must know best
    He certainly does know better than you that the Greens are ultimately not interested in the victory of the left. And that means in our system they end by aiding the right.

    And that's said without malice.

    Edit - and being an admirer of Putin's followers doesn't exactly help your case for being a good socialist.
    Are they Tories?

    Simple yes or no will suffice.

    TIA
    Yes.

    As are you.
    Thanks for that.

  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,027
    DougSeal said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Council Election post LE 2023 to date

    Aggregate Results of the 115 Council By-Elections (for 116 Seats) Since LE2023:

    LAB: 40 (-1)
    LDM: 33 (+15)
    CON: 16 (-15)
    GRN: 13 (+4)
    IND: 8 (+3)
    LOC: 5 (-2)
    PLC: 1 (=)
    SNP: 0 (-4)

    Green Tories a very poor 4th!
    You being a Tory and me not being a Tory its quite bizarre you would think the Greens are Tories

    Maybe you are just a bit thick
    I'm sure Dr Sunil Prasannan PhD will feel duly bound to accept the aspersions cast on his intellect by somebody who uncritically posts material from notorious conspiracy theorist, forger and liar Craig Murray.
    ydoethur said:

    Council Election post LE 2023 to date

    Aggregate Results of the 115 Council By-Elections (for 116 Seats) Since LE2023:

    LAB: 40 (-1)
    LDM: 33 (+15)
    CON: 16 (-15)
    GRN: 13 (+4)
    IND: 8 (+3)
    LOC: 5 (-2)
    PLC: 1 (=)
    SNP: 0 (-4)

    Green Tories a very poor 4th!
    You being a Tory and me not being a Tory its quite bizarre you would think the Greens are Tories

    Maybe you are just a bit thick
    I'm sure Dr Sunil Prasannan PhD will feel duly bound to accept the aspersions cast on his intellect by somebody who uncritically posts material from notorious conspiracy theorist, forger and liar Craig Murray.
    That is relevant to whether the Greens are Tories or not Why?

    Shall we put you down as thinking the Greens are Tories as well?

    TBH the meetings i have attended since joining, most of them are fellow Socialists, but hey Dr PhD must know best
    He certainly does know better than you that the Greens are ultimately not interested in the victory of the left. And that means in our system they end by aiding the right.

    And that's said without malice.

    Edit - and being an admirer of Putin's followers doesn't exactly help your case for being a good socialist.
    Are they Tories?

    Simple yes or no will suffice.

    TIA
    Yes. They are -

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/lancaster-city-council-tory-green-party-b1849425.html
    And then there were 3
  • Options

    For more on the Giuliani case: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/15/rudy-giuliani-pay-damages-election-workers-defamation-trial

    And I hope the same happens to everyone else involved in spreading lies about election fraud. The mills of justice grind slowly, yet they grind exceedingly small.

    Perhaps if this and similar cases had happened a year ago, they might just have gotten through to the brainwashed MAGA cultists.

    16 years ago, and for practically all of 2007, Giuliani led in polls to be GOP candidate in the 2008 Presidential election. He'd waned a bit by December, but at times in the summer had looked a very strong favourite - not least because he appeared to be best placed to appeal to Democrats.

    Quite a remarkable decline, and Messrs Daniels and Beam must take their share of the blame.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 32,163

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    RIP A QUESTION OF SPORT. according to GB breaking news. The BBC were mad to axe Sue Barker

    Yet another reason not to pay the BBC license

    It is the below-inflation (and pledge-breaking) licence fee increase announced this week that has made the BBC look to axe expensive but failing shows like A Question of Sport. iirc they have a £90 million funding gap to fill.
    Nonsense. It's making stupid decisions and axing popular presenters. It's the way the BBC is going. If the license fee went, the BBC would implode. Who would pay to watch the woke shite that is the BBC.
    “Woke”

    Can we add woke to the Conservative home banishment list along with colour me, says hi and the rest of them?
    Woke Shite is an apt description of the BBC right now. Woke stays. Sorry
    Yeah. Agree. It’s useful. There’s a correlation between (1) those that use the word and (2) reactionary bellends whose viewpoints can be safely disregarded.
    You are obviously too young to remember the excellent stuff the BBC used to produce. I justvscroll past most of the output. I have moved to the little that is decent that can be recorded to avoid incessant adverts and trailers.
    I appreciate this is all 'eye of the beholder' stuff but I find the suggestions that the BBC output is complete shite utterly baffling.

    We have tried subscriptions to:
    1. Netflix - enjoyed Queens Gambit, the first few series of the Crown (the last two have been utter shite), tried Schitt's Creek - a one joke 'comedy' series, tried Bridgerton - utter crap*. Other that that - nothing. Cancelled subscription.
    2. Amazon Prime - enjoyed series 1 of The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, lost interest in series 2. Have watched the occasional film. Only keeping the subscription due to Prime delivery.

    But generally, BBC, ITV, C4 and the occasionally C5 have a great range of programming - BBC is what we watch most of.

    Now, you could conclude that's cos we lack taste but as I said above it's eye of the beholder stuff.

    (*Surely 'wokier' than any BBC programme too.)
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,140
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-the-united-kingdom/

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-france-2010---2021-/

    Look at absolute numbers. Then look at the graph for each country, up to 2016 and then from 2016 onwards.
    Lies, damned lies and statistics. Do you believe that per capita purchasing power was that much higher in France than the UK before Brexit?
    Yes. I’ve seen it myself. Living standards and disposable income are similar across the majority of provincial France to outer London and the Home Counties. And they had nothing like the recessionary contraction we did from the financial crisis.

    I think it’s hard living in inner London to appreciate just how poor most of our country is.
    And I think it is nonsense. Provincial France sounds and looks nice (nicer than many chunks of the UK), and if you have a house in, say, the Burgundy region then it will certainly feel that France is considerably richer than the UK

    And yet if you go to the bainlieues around Lyon, Marseille or Paris, or in the east, then France will feel a lot poorer, and in places poorer than the UK

    As for these precise figures. I am wary. What is this median household fandangle? Is it simply what it says on the tin? The median average income for every household? Then there might several explanations for a disparity

    eg Single person households. Britain has many more than France, 30% of our households are single person, as aganst just 17% in France. That would surely bring down the median a fuck of a lot?

    I may be missing some major detail. Am still quite stoned and listening to neo-folk
    The charts show a recovery in the UK from 2010 to 2016 following the financial crisis, so the base level in 2010 is a little suppressed. But the stats are the stats.

    Are households on average larger in France than the UK? 2.18 in France, 2.4 here. So it’s not larger households. Do more households have 2 income earners in France? Quite possibly, but I don’t have the data.

    Median household income in the US is $74k by the way, so they put us both in the shade. And that’s median, so despite their inequality, their unaffordable healthcare, their low life expectancy, they’re still almost twice as rich per median household than we are.

    Britain has some extremely poor areas. That’s the issue. It’s why levelling up is a thing. We’re like Italy with the Mezzogiorno only our Mezzogiorno is colder and damper. Whereas London (and its banlieue) is one of the richest places in Europe.

    https://inequalitybriefing.org/graphics/briefing_43_UK_regions_poorest_North_Europe.pdf

  • Options
    CatManCatMan Posts: 2,872



    Interesting?

    I've seen a map like that before, but I don't remember it leaving out countries. I'm sure it had Ireland for example.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,088
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-the-united-kingdom/

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-france-2010---2021-/

    Look at absolute numbers. Then look at the graph for each country, up to 2016 and then from 2016 onwards.
    Lies, damned lies and statistics. Do you believe that per capita purchasing power was that much higher in France than the UK before Brexit?
    Yes. I’ve seen it myself. Living standards and disposable income are similar across the majority of provincial France to outer London and the Home Counties. And they had nothing like the recessionary contraction we did from the financial crisis.

    I think it’s hard living in inner London to appreciate just how poor most of our country is.
    And I think it is nonsense. Provincial France sounds and looks nice (nicer than many chunks of the UK), and if you have a house in, say, the Burgundy region then it will certainly feel that France is considerably richer than the UK

    And yet if you go to the bainlieues around Lyon, Marseille or Paris, or in the east, then France will feel a lot poorer, and in places poorer than the UK

    As for these precise figures. I am wary. What is this median household fandangle? Is it simply what it says on the tin? The median average income for every household? Then there might several explanations for a disparity

    eg Single person households. Britain has many more than France, 30% of our households are single person, as aganst just 17% in France. That would surely bring down the median a fuck of a lot?

    I may be missing some major detail. Am still quite stoned and listening to neo-folk
    The major detail you are missing is the definition of a median, which I suggest you go look up. When you understand it, you will see that much of your comment is gibberish.
    Despite being right off my nipples, I understand the definition of median

    The formation of households may be different in France (I offer one reason above), leading to this curious disparity

    They may be other shady statitical work afoot, that same page claims that the country with the "fifth highest median income" is..... Ireland.


    Ireland??

    Higher than the USA, Austria or Luxembourg, higher than Denmark, Switzerland, Australia?? Apparently so

    I've been to Ireland, I've been to Switzerland. lol

    Something ain't right with the data
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,788
    viewcode said:

    TimS said:

    RIP A QUESTION OF SPORT. according to GB breaking news. The BBC were mad to axe Sue Barker

    Yet another reason not to pay the BBC license

    It is the below-inflation (and pledge-breaking) licence fee increase announced this week that has made the BBC look to axe expensive but failing shows like A Question of Sport. iirc they have a £90 million funding gap to fill.
    Nonsense. It's making stupid decisions and axing popular presenters. It's the way the BBC is going. If the license fee went, the BBC would implode. Who would pay to watch the woke shite that is the BBC.
    “Woke”

    Can we add woke to the Conservative home banishment list along with colour me, says hi and the rest of them?
    "Doing some heavy lifting"
    "Well-respected"
    "Ahem"
    "Point of order Lord Copper"

    I don't want anyone to stop though - I like the PBisms.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,088
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-the-united-kingdom/

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-france-2010---2021-/

    Look at absolute numbers. Then look at the graph for each country, up to 2016 and then from 2016 onwards.
    Lies, damned lies and statistics. Do you believe that per capita purchasing power was that much higher in France than the UK before Brexit?
    Yes. I’ve seen it myself. Living standards and disposable income are similar across the majority of provincial France to outer London and the Home Counties. And they had nothing like the recessionary contraction we did from the financial crisis.

    I think it’s hard living in inner London to appreciate just how poor most of our country is.
    And I think it is nonsense. Provincial France sounds and looks nice (nicer than many chunks of the UK), and if you have a house in, say, the Burgundy region then it will certainly feel that France is considerably richer than the UK

    And yet if you go to the bainlieues around Lyon, Marseille or Paris, or in the east, then France will feel a lot poorer, and in places poorer than the UK

    As for these precise figures. I am wary. What is this median household fandangle? Is it simply what it says on the tin? The median average income for every household? Then there might several explanations for a disparity

    eg Single person households. Britain has many more than France, 30% of our households are single person, as aganst just 17% in France. That would surely bring down the median a fuck of a lot?

    I may be missing some major detail. Am still quite stoned and listening to neo-folk
    The charts show a recovery in the UK from 2010 to 2016 following the financial crisis, so the base level in 2010 is a little suppressed. But the stats are the stats.

    Are households on average larger in France than the UK? 2.18 in France, 2.4 here. So it’s not larger households. Do more households have 2 income earners in France? Quite possibly, but I don’t have the data.

    Median household income in the US is $74k by the way, so they put us both in the shade. And that’s median, so despite their inequality, their unaffordable healthcare, their low life expectancy, they’re still almost twice as rich per median household than we are.

    Britain has some extremely poor areas. That’s the issue. It’s why levelling up is a thing. We’re like Italy with the Mezzogiorno only our Mezzogiorno is colder and damper. Whereas London (and its banlieue) is one of the richest places in Europe.

    https://inequalitybriefing.org/graphics/briefing_43_UK_regions_poorest_North_Europe.pdf

    The stats are shite. See my comment below

    "Ireland"

    lol

    I agree we are a bit like Italy, tho having recently toured inland Sicily I can say our Mezziogiorno is not remotely as poor as theirs. Parts of theirs are like Egypt, and that is not an exaggeration
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,699
    edited December 2023
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-the-united-kingdom/

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-france-2010---2021-/

    Look at absolute numbers. Then look at the graph for each country, up to 2016 and then from 2016 onwards.
    Lies, damned lies and statistics. Do you believe that per capita purchasing power was that much higher in France than the UK before Brexit?
    Yes. I’ve seen it myself. Living standards and disposable income are similar across the majority of provincial France to outer London and the Home Counties. And they had nothing like the recessionary contraction we did from the financial crisis.

    I think it’s hard living in inner London to appreciate just how poor most of our country is.
    And I think it is nonsense. Provincial France sounds and looks nice (nicer than many chunks of the UK), and if you have a house in, say, the Burgundy region then it will certainly feel that France is considerably richer than the UK

    And yet if you go to the bainlieues around Lyon, Marseille or Paris, or in the east, then France will feel a lot poorer, and in places poorer than the UK

    As for these precise figures. I am wary. What is this median household fandangle? Is it simply what it says on the tin? The median average income for every household? Then there might several explanations for a disparity

    eg Single person households. Britain has many more than France, 30% of our households are single person, as aganst just 17% in France. That would surely bring down the median a fuck of a lot?

    I may be missing some major detail. Am still quite stoned and listening to neo-folk
    The major detail you are missing is the definition of a median, which I suggest you go look up. When you understand it, you will see that much of your comment is gibberish.
    Despite being right off my nipples, I understand the definition of median

    The formation of households may be different in France (I offer one reason above), leading to this curious disparity

    They may be other shady statitical work afoot, that same page claims that the country with the "fifth highest median income" is..... Ireland.


    Ireland??

    Higher than the USA, Austria or Luxembourg, higher than Denmark, Switzerland, Australia?? Apparently so

    I've been to Ireland, I've been to Switzerland. lol

    Something ain't right with the data
    The data’s right; your understanding isn’t.

    It’s inequality, plain and simple. The guy in the middle is much better off in France whereas those few people at the top are much better off in the UK. The averages are more or less the same, but the money is spread more equitably in France.
  • Options
    geoffw said:

     

    Thanks for the explanation Sir Keir

    That's all clear now

    https://twitter.com/Hammer_On_X/status/1735711452168691753

    The great hope of the left exposed in the searchlight of a simple question
    That clip sums up in a nutshell why I am probably the only one on this website who thinks SKS will not win and the Tories have a fighting chance.

    You can get away with such a duff answer when the electorate is not really thinking about you as next PM and hates the Government.

    It’s another thing when it swings into an election campaign and then everyone is suddenly forced into having to make a choice.

    Chances are SKS will get eviscerated in a campaign. Give him any slightly off centre question - ‘define working class’, ‘define a woman etc’ - and he waffles and sounds vacuous.

    He’s got 2017 Theresa May vintage written all over him.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,088
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-the-united-kingdom/

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-france-2010---2021-/

    Look at absolute numbers. Then look at the graph for each country, up to 2016 and then from 2016 onwards.
    Lies, damned lies and statistics. Do you believe that per capita purchasing power was that much higher in France than the UK before Brexit?
    Yes. I’ve seen it myself. Living standards and disposable income are similar across the majority of provincial France to outer London and the Home Counties. And they had nothing like the recessionary contraction we did from the financial crisis.

    I think it’s hard living in inner London to appreciate just how poor most of our country is.
    And I think it is nonsense. Provincial France sounds and looks nice (nicer than many chunks of the UK), and if you have a house in, say, the Burgundy region then it will certainly feel that France is considerably richer than the UK

    And yet if you go to the bainlieues around Lyon, Marseille or Paris, or in the east, then France will feel a lot poorer, and in places poorer than the UK

    As for these precise figures. I am wary. What is this median household fandangle? Is it simply what it says on the tin? The median average income for every household? Then there might several explanations for a disparity

    eg Single person households. Britain has many more than France, 30% of our households are single person, as aganst just 17% in France. That would surely bring down the median a fuck of a lot?

    I may be missing some major detail. Am still quite stoned and listening to neo-folk
    The major detail you are missing is the definition of a median, which I suggest you go look up. When you understand it, you will see that much of your comment is gibberish.
    Despite being right off my nipples, I understand the definition of median

    The formation of households may be different in France (I offer one reason above), leading to this curious disparity

    They may be other shady statitical work afoot, that same page claims that the country with the "fifth highest median income" is..... Ireland.


    Ireland??

    Higher than the USA, Austria or Luxembourg, higher than Denmark, Switzerland, Australia?? Apparently so

    I've been to Ireland, I've been to Switzerland. lol

    Something ain't right with the data
    The data’s right; your understanding isn’t.

    It’s inequality, plain and simple. The guy in the middle is much better off in France whereas those few people at the top are much better off in the UK.
    Then explain Ireland

    Absolutely no way their median household income is higher than Switzerland, Denmark, Luxembourg AND the USA, not if you actually go there and use your eyes
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,477
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-the-united-kingdom/

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-france-2010---2021-/

    Look at absolute numbers. Then look at the graph for each country, up to 2016 and then from 2016 onwards.
    Lies, damned lies and statistics. Do you believe that per capita purchasing power was that much higher in France than the UK before Brexit?
    Yes. I’ve seen it myself. Living standards and disposable income are similar across the majority of provincial France to outer London and the Home Counties. And they had nothing like the recessionary contraction we did from the financial crisis.

    I think it’s hard living in inner London to appreciate just how poor most of our country is.
    And I think it is nonsense. Provincial France sounds and looks nice (nicer than many chunks of the UK), and if you have a house in, say, the Burgundy region then it will certainly feel that France is considerably richer than the UK

    And yet if you go to the bainlieues around Lyon, Marseille or Paris, or in the east, then France will feel a lot poorer, and in places poorer than the UK

    As for these precise figures. I am wary. What is this median household fandangle? Is it simply what it says on the tin? The median average income for every household? Then there might several explanations for a disparity

    eg Single person households. Britain has many more than France, 30% of our households are single person, as aganst just 17% in France. That would surely bring down the median a fuck of a lot?

    I may be missing some major detail. Am still quite stoned and listening to neo-folk
    The major detail you are missing is the definition of a median, which I suggest you go look up. When you understand it, you will see that much of your comment is gibberish.
    Despite being right off my nipples, I understand the definition of median

    The formation of households may be different in France (I offer one reason above), leading to this curious disparity

    They may be other shady statitical work afoot, that same page claims that the country with the "fifth highest median income" is..... Ireland.


    Ireland??

    Higher than the USA, Austria or Luxembourg, higher than Denmark, Switzerland, Australia?? Apparently so

    I've been to Ireland, I've been to Switzerland. lol

    Something ain't right with the data
    If they're saying that about Ireland then it proves that the numbers are not useful for making the point that @TimS is trying to make. Using actual individual consumption, which is less subject to statistical distortions, Ireland is still below the EU average.

    image
  • Options
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-the-united-kingdom/

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-france-2010---2021-/

    Look at absolute numbers. Then look at the graph for each country, up to 2016 and then from 2016 onwards.
    Lies, damned lies and statistics. Do you believe that per capita purchasing power was that much higher in France than the UK before Brexit?
    Yes. I’ve seen it myself. Living standards and disposable income are similar across the majority of provincial France to outer London and the Home Counties. And they had nothing like the recessionary contraction we did from the financial crisis.

    I think it’s hard living in inner London to appreciate just how poor most of our country is.
    And I think it is nonsense. Provincial France sounds and looks nice (nicer than many chunks of the UK), and if you have a house in, say, the Burgundy region then it will certainly feel that France is considerably richer than the UK

    And yet if you go to the bainlieues around Lyon, Marseille or Paris, or in the east, then France will feel a lot poorer, and in places poorer than the UK

    As for these precise figures. I am wary. What is this median household fandangle? Is it simply what it says on the tin? The median average income for every household? Then there might several explanations for a disparity

    eg Single person households. Britain has many more than France, 30% of our households are single person, as aganst just 17% in France. That would surely bring down the median a fuck of a lot?

    I may be missing some major detail. Am still quite stoned and listening to neo-folk
    The charts show a recovery in the UK from 2010 to 2016 following the financial crisis, so the base level in 2010 is a little suppressed. But the stats are the stats.

    Are households on average larger in France than the UK? 2.18 in France, 2.4 here. So it’s not larger households. Do more households have 2 income earners in France? Quite possibly, but I don’t have the data.

    Median household income in the US is $74k by the way, so they put us both in the shade. And that’s median, so despite their inequality, their unaffordable healthcare, their low life expectancy, they’re still almost twice as rich per median household than we are.

    Britain has some extremely poor areas. That’s the issue. It’s why levelling up is a thing. We’re like Italy with the Mezzogiorno only our Mezzogiorno is colder and damper. Whereas London (and its banlieue) is one of the richest places in Europe.

    https://inequalitybriefing.org/graphics/briefing_43_UK_regions_poorest_North_Europe.pdf

    The stats are shite. See my comment below

    "Ireland"

    lol

    I agree we are a bit like Italy, tho having recently toured inland Sicily I can say our Mezziogiorno is not remotely as poor as theirs. Parts of theirs are like Egypt, and that is not an exaggeration
    Not just the remote parts. Go to Naples and it feels like you should be in North Africa (and I’m not talking about the demographics nor the weather).
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,788

    geoffw said:

     

    Thanks for the explanation Sir Keir

    That's all clear now

    https://twitter.com/Hammer_On_X/status/1735711452168691753

    The great hope of the left exposed in the searchlight of a simple question
    That clip sums up in a nutshell why I am probably the only one on this website who thinks SKS will not win and the Tories have a fighting chance.

    You can get away with such a duff answer when the electorate is not really thinking about you as next PM and hates the Government.

    It’s another thing when it swings into an election campaign and then everyone is suddenly forced into having to make a choice.

    Chances are SKS will get eviscerated in a campaign. Give him any slightly off centre question - ‘define working class’, ‘define a woman etc’ - and he waffles and sounds vacuous.

    He’s got 2017 Theresa May vintage written all over him.
    The trouble is, Sunak's got collapse of May era written all over him. Constant relaunches, reboots, podia. Tears outside number 10 can't be too far off. So it's May vs. May.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,140
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-the-united-kingdom/

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-france-2010---2021-/

    Look at absolute numbers. Then look at the graph for each country, up to 2016 and then from 2016 onwards.
    Lies, damned lies and statistics. Do you believe that per capita purchasing power was that much higher in France than the UK before Brexit?
    Yes. I’ve seen it myself. Living standards and disposable income are similar across the majority of provincial France to outer London and the Home Counties. And they had nothing like the recessionary contraction we did from the financial crisis.

    I think it’s hard living in inner London to appreciate just how poor most of our country is.
    And I think it is nonsense. Provincial France sounds and looks nice (nicer than many chunks of the UK), and if you have a house in, say, the Burgundy region then it will certainly feel that France is considerably richer than the UK

    And yet if you go to the bainlieues around Lyon, Marseille or Paris, or in the east, then France will feel a lot poorer, and in places poorer than the UK

    As for these precise figures. I am wary. What is this median household fandangle? Is it simply what it says on the tin? The median average income for every household? Then there might several explanations for a disparity

    eg Single person households. Britain has many more than France, 30% of our households are single person, as aganst just 17% in France. That would surely bring down the median a fuck of a lot?

    I may be missing some major detail. Am still quite stoned and listening to neo-folk
    The major detail you are missing is the definition of a median, which I suggest you go look up. When you understand it, you will see that much of your comment is gibberish.
    Despite being right off my nipples, I understand the definition of median

    The formation of households may be different in France (I offer one reason above), leading to this curious disparity

    They may be other shady statitical work afoot, that same page claims that the country with the "fifth highest median income" is..... Ireland.


    Ireland??

    Higher than the USA, Austria or Luxembourg, higher than Denmark, Switzerland, Australia?? Apparently so

    I've been to Ireland, I've been to Switzerland. lol

    Something ain't right with the data
    Ireland’s GDP data are massively distorted by corporate profits. Household income shouldn’t be though. But average household size in Ireland is 2.74 people, so it’s significantly higher than the UK or France. That could account for part of the difference.

    The other thing, though orangemen might disagree, is that Ireland’s Mezzogiorno - Ulster - happens to be accounted for as part of the UK.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,953
    edited December 2023
    ydoethur said:

    Tory tweet using image of BBC news anchor giving middle finger to attack Labour may have backfired, new study says
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/tory-tweet-finger-middle-bbc-labour-immigration-attack-backfire-b1127271.html

    I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.
    The other Tory attack that backfired this week was the Shapps/Lineker twitter spat, which meant news programmes had to explain why Gary Lineker called him "4 chaps Shapps".
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,140

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-the-united-kingdom/

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-france-2010---2021-/

    Look at absolute numbers. Then look at the graph for each country, up to 2016 and then from 2016 onwards.
    Lies, damned lies and statistics. Do you believe that per capita purchasing power was that much higher in France than the UK before Brexit?
    Yes. I’ve seen it myself. Living standards and disposable income are similar across the majority of provincial France to outer London and the Home Counties. And they had nothing like the recessionary contraction we did from the financial crisis.

    I think it’s hard living in inner London to appreciate just how poor most of our country is.
    And I think it is nonsense. Provincial France sounds and looks nice (nicer than many chunks of the UK), and if you have a house in, say, the Burgundy region then it will certainly feel that France is considerably richer than the UK

    And yet if you go to the bainlieues around Lyon, Marseille or Paris, or in the east, then France will feel a lot poorer, and in places poorer than the UK

    As for these precise figures. I am wary. What is this median household fandangle? Is it simply what it says on the tin? The median average income for every household? Then there might several explanations for a disparity

    eg Single person households. Britain has many more than France, 30% of our households are single person, as aganst just 17% in France. That would surely bring down the median a fuck of a lot?

    I may be missing some major detail. Am still quite stoned and listening to neo-folk
    The charts show a recovery in the UK from 2010 to 2016 following the financial crisis, so the base level in 2010 is a little suppressed. But the stats are the stats.

    Are households on average larger in France than the UK? 2.18 in France, 2.4 here. So it’s not larger households. Do more households have 2 income earners in France? Quite possibly, but I don’t have the data.

    Median household income in the US is $74k by the way, so they put us both in the shade. And that’s median, so despite their inequality, their unaffordable healthcare, their low life expectancy, they’re still almost twice as rich per median household than we are.

    Britain has some extremely poor areas. That’s the issue. It’s why levelling up is a thing. We’re like Italy with the Mezzogiorno only our Mezzogiorno is colder and damper. Whereas London (and its banlieue) is one of the richest places in Europe.

    https://inequalitybriefing.org/graphics/briefing_43_UK_regions_poorest_North_Europe.pdf

    The stats are shite. See my comment below

    "Ireland"

    lol

    I agree we are a bit like Italy, tho having recently toured inland Sicily I can say our Mezziogiorno is not remotely as poor as theirs. Parts of theirs are like Egypt, and that is not an exaggeration
    Not just the remote parts. Go to Naples and it feels like you should be in North Africa (and I’m not talking about the demographics nor the weather).
    Italy’s median household income per the same source is $35k, substantially lower than the UK and less than half the USA. Which bears this out.
  • Options

    geoffw said:

     

    Thanks for the explanation Sir Keir

    That's all clear now

    https://twitter.com/Hammer_On_X/status/1735711452168691753

    The great hope of the left exposed in the searchlight of a simple question
    That clip sums up in a nutshell why I am probably the only one on this website who thinks SKS will not win and the Tories have a fighting chance.

    You can get away with such a duff answer when the electorate is not really thinking about you as next PM and hates the Government.

    It’s another thing when it swings into an election campaign and then everyone is suddenly forced into having to make a choice.

    Chances are SKS will get eviscerated in a campaign. Give him any slightly off centre question - ‘define working class’, ‘define a woman etc’ - and he waffles and sounds vacuous.

    He’s got 2017 Theresa May vintage written all over him.
    The trouble is, Sunak's got collapse of May era written all over him. Constant relaunches, reboots, podia. Tears outside number 10 can't be too far off. So it's May vs. May.
    Does this mean Ed Davey might win???
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,140

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-the-united-kingdom/

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-france-2010---2021-/

    Look at absolute numbers. Then look at the graph for each country, up to 2016 and then from 2016 onwards.
    Lies, damned lies and statistics. Do you believe that per capita purchasing power was that much higher in France than the UK before Brexit?
    Yes. I’ve seen it myself. Living standards and disposable income are similar across the majority of provincial France to outer London and the Home Counties. And they had nothing like the recessionary contraction we did from the financial crisis.

    I think it’s hard living in inner London to appreciate just how poor most of our country is.
    And I think it is nonsense. Provincial France sounds and looks nice (nicer than many chunks of the UK), and if you have a house in, say, the Burgundy region then it will certainly feel that France is considerably richer than the UK

    And yet if you go to the bainlieues around Lyon, Marseille or Paris, or in the east, then France will feel a lot poorer, and in places poorer than the UK

    As for these precise figures. I am wary. What is this median household fandangle? Is it simply what it says on the tin? The median average income for every household? Then there might several explanations for a disparity

    eg Single person households. Britain has many more than France, 30% of our households are single person, as aganst just 17% in France. That would surely bring down the median a fuck of a lot?

    I may be missing some major detail. Am still quite stoned and listening to neo-folk
    The major detail you are missing is the definition of a median, which I suggest you go look up. When you understand it, you will see that much of your comment is gibberish.
    Despite being right off my nipples, I understand the definition of median

    The formation of households may be different in France (I offer one reason above), leading to this curious disparity

    They may be other shady statitical work afoot, that same page claims that the country with the "fifth highest median income" is..... Ireland.


    Ireland??

    Higher than the USA, Austria or Luxembourg, higher than Denmark, Switzerland, Australia?? Apparently so

    I've been to Ireland, I've been to Switzerland. lol

    Something ain't right with the data
    If they're saying that about Ireland then it proves that the numbers are not useful for making the point that @TimS is trying to make. Using actual individual consumption, which is less subject to statistical distortions, Ireland is still below the EU average.

    image
    One of the micro-annoyances of Brexit is that Britain now gets greyed out in stat maps like this one.
  • Options

    geoffw said:

     

    Thanks for the explanation Sir Keir

    That's all clear now

    https://twitter.com/Hammer_On_X/status/1735711452168691753

    The great hope of the left exposed in the searchlight of a simple question
    That clip sums up in a nutshell why I am probably the only one on this website who thinks SKS will not win and the Tories have a fighting chance.

    You can get away with such a duff answer when the electorate is not really thinking about you as next PM and hates the Government.

    It’s another thing when it swings into an election campaign and then everyone is suddenly forced into having to make a choice.

    Chances are SKS will get eviscerated in a campaign. Give him any slightly off centre question - ‘define working class’, ‘define a woman etc’ - and he waffles and sounds vacuous.

    He’s got 2017 Theresa May vintage written all over him.
    The trouble is, Sunak's got collapse of May era written all over him. Constant relaunches, reboots, podia. Tears outside number 10 can't be too far off. So it's May vs. May.
    Which is why I don’t think Sunak lasts. My current thinking is he’s out within 6 months and the new leader immediately goes to the country (I think that will be Hunt).
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,088
    edited December 2023
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-the-united-kingdom/

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-france-2010---2021-/

    Look at absolute numbers. Then look at the graph for each country, up to 2016 and then from 2016 onwards.
    Lies, damned lies and statistics. Do you believe that per capita purchasing power was that much higher in France than the UK before Brexit?
    Yes. I’ve seen it myself. Living standards and disposable income are similar across the majority of provincial France to outer London and the Home Counties. And they had nothing like the recessionary contraction we did from the financial crisis.

    I think it’s hard living in inner London to appreciate just how poor most of our country is.
    And I think it is nonsense. Provincial France sounds and looks nice (nicer than many chunks of the UK), and if you have a house in, say, the Burgundy region then it will certainly feel that France is considerably richer than the UK

    And yet if you go to the bainlieues around Lyon, Marseille or Paris, or in the east, then France will feel a lot poorer, and in places poorer than the UK

    As for these precise figures. I am wary. What is this median household fandangle? Is it simply what it says on the tin? The median average income for every household? Then there might several explanations for a disparity

    eg Single person households. Britain has many more than France, 30% of our households are single person, as aganst just 17% in France. That would surely bring down the median a fuck of a lot?

    I may be missing some major detail. Am still quite stoned and listening to neo-folk
    The major detail you are missing is the definition of a median, which I suggest you go look up. When you understand it, you will see that much of your comment is gibberish.
    Despite being right off my nipples, I understand the definition of median

    The formation of households may be different in France (I offer one reason above), leading to this curious disparity

    They may be other shady statitical work afoot, that same page claims that the country with the "fifth highest median income" is..... Ireland.


    Ireland??

    Higher than the USA, Austria or Luxembourg, higher than Denmark, Switzerland, Australia?? Apparently so

    I've been to Ireland, I've been to Switzerland. lol

    Something ain't right with the data
    Ireland’s GDP data are massively distorted by corporate profits. Household income shouldn’t be though. But average household size in Ireland is 2.74 people, so it’s significantly higher than the UK or France. That could account for part of the difference.

    The other thing, though orangemen might disagree, is that Ireland’s Mezzogiorno - Ulster - happens to be accounted for as part of the UK.
    It tells me all the data is rather dodgy, and to be handled with care

    It should not be dismissed entirely, there is obviously some truth here. It *feels* right to me that France is somewhat richer than Britain now (on an average) - we were fecked by the Kredit Krunch, and we are still feeling our way back to a new model, they were less impacted. But I do not think the gulf is nearly as big as this table implies

    Besides, this was not my point. It is performance in very recent years and from now on that concerns me

    If Britain starts to outperform France and Germany that will turn received opinion on its head, esp on the Remainer Left. And of course this is almost inevitable, eventually, everything goes in cycles, and Britain is now significantly decoupled from the EU economy and has likely adapted to the rupture of Brexit. So we will diverge, sometimes do worse - but, yes, sometimes do better
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,544
    ydoethur said:

    Actually, I think I was harsh.

    I would like to apologise, very humbly and sincerely, for comparing the Tories to the Greens, and I hope any Tories who were offended will forgive me.

    Talking of apologising humbly and sincerely:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnVsR5tpf38
  • Options
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-the-united-kingdom/

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-france-2010---2021-/

    Look at absolute numbers. Then look at the graph for each country, up to 2016 and then from 2016 onwards.
    Lies, damned lies and statistics. Do you believe that per capita purchasing power was that much higher in France than the UK before Brexit?
    Yes. I’ve seen it myself. Living standards and disposable income are similar across the majority of provincial France to outer London and the Home Counties. And they had nothing like the recessionary contraction we did from the financial crisis.

    I think it’s hard living in inner London to appreciate just how poor most of our country is.
    And I think it is nonsense. Provincial France sounds and looks nice (nicer than many chunks of the UK), and if you have a house in, say, the Burgundy region then it will certainly feel that France is considerably richer than the UK

    And yet if you go to the bainlieues around Lyon, Marseille or Paris, or in the east, then France will feel a lot poorer, and in places poorer than the UK

    As for these precise figures. I am wary. What is this median household fandangle? Is it simply what it says on the tin? The median average income for every household? Then there might several explanations for a disparity

    eg Single person households. Britain has many more than France, 30% of our households are single person, as aganst just 17% in France. That would surely bring down the median a fuck of a lot?

    I may be missing some major detail. Am still quite stoned and listening to neo-folk
    The major detail you are missing is the definition of a median, which I suggest you go look up. When you understand it, you will see that much of your comment is gibberish.
    Despite being right off my nipples, I understand the definition of median

    The formation of households may be different in France (I offer one reason above), leading to this curious disparity

    They may be other shady statitical work afoot, that same page claims that the country with the "fifth highest median income" is..... Ireland.


    Ireland??

    Higher than the USA, Austria or Luxembourg, higher than Denmark, Switzerland, Australia?? Apparently so

    I've been to Ireland, I've been to Switzerland. lol

    Something ain't right with the data
    If they're saying that about Ireland then it proves that the numbers are not useful for making the point that @TimS is trying to make. Using actual individual consumption, which is less subject to statistical distortions, Ireland is still below the EU average.

    image
    One of the micro-annoyances of Brexit is that Britain now gets greyed out in stat maps like this one.
    Switzerland? Albania? Turkey?
  • Options
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-the-united-kingdom/

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-france-2010---2021-/

    Look at absolute numbers. Then look at the graph for each country, up to 2016 and then from 2016 onwards.
    Lies, damned lies and statistics. Do you believe that per capita purchasing power was that much higher in France than the UK before Brexit?
    Yes. I’ve seen it myself. Living standards and disposable income are similar across the majority of provincial France to outer London and the Home Counties. And they had nothing like the recessionary contraction we did from the financial crisis.

    I think it’s hard living in inner London to appreciate just how poor most of our country is.
    And I think it is nonsense. Provincial France sounds and looks nice (nicer than many chunks of the UK), and if you have a house in, say, the Burgundy region then it will certainly feel that France is considerably richer than the UK

    And yet if you go to the bainlieues around Lyon, Marseille or Paris, or in the east, then France will feel a lot poorer, and in places poorer than the UK

    As for these precise figures. I am wary. What is this median household fandangle? Is it simply what it says on the tin? The median average income for every household? Then there might several explanations for a disparity

    eg Single person households. Britain has many more than France, 30% of our households are single person, as aganst just 17% in France. That would surely bring down the median a fuck of a lot?

    I may be missing some major detail. Am still quite stoned and listening to neo-folk
    The major detail you are missing is the definition of a median, which I suggest you go look up. When you understand it, you will see that much of your comment is gibberish.
    Despite being right off my nipples, I understand the definition of median

    The formation of households may be different in France (I offer one reason above), leading to this curious disparity

    They may be other shady statitical work afoot, that same page claims that the country with the "fifth highest median income" is..... Ireland.


    Ireland??

    Higher than the USA, Austria or Luxembourg, higher than Denmark, Switzerland, Australia?? Apparently so

    I've been to Ireland, I've been to Switzerland. lol

    Something ain't right with the data
    According to the ONS consumption per capita in 2019 was:

    Germany 122
    UK 113
    France 109
    Italy 99
    Spain 91
    Poland 79

    In 2019, consumption per head in the UK, measured using actual individual consumption (AIC) per head, was equivalent to the seventh highest in the EU, equal to that of Finland and below the Netherlands and Belgium. This is according to new figures recorded by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) and compiled and released by Eurostat, the statistical office of the EU, on 15 December 2020.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/articles/actualindividualconsumptionperheadintheuk/2019

    Of course wealth consumption is not the same as wealth creation and the UK does over consume.

    Anecdotes about how rich or poor a country is based on personal experience are dangerous - you can find big extremes of wealth driving from one village to another across much of Yorkshire for example.

    There's also this:

    https://www.statista.com/forecasts/1156460/real-consumer-spending-per-capita-by-country

    Which gives the UK, and other countries, a surprising high place on consumer spending.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,140
    The other shocking thing in all the national stats - GDP, household income, consumption, assets, you name it, everything except life expectancy- is the way Japan has slumped, in a smooth, gentle downwards line since 1990. Now poorer than Italy and much of Eastern Europe.
  • Options
    ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,040
    geoffw said:

     

    Thanks for the explanation Sir Keir

    That's all clear now

    https://twitter.com/Hammer_On_X/status/1735711452168691753

    The great hope of the left exposed in the searchlight of a simple question
    The simple of question of the left is, always has been "Are you a traitor?". To quote the old saying :
    The Left seeks traitors. The Right seeks converts.
    It's an interesting lens to look through when reading history or current events. So Keir can or cannot answer a question. Or gives one answer one day, a different one the next. It's quite telling.

    (Equally of Rishi).
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,140
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-the-united-kingdom/

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-france-2010---2021-/

    Look at absolute numbers. Then look at the graph for each country, up to 2016 and then from 2016 onwards.
    Lies, damned lies and statistics. Do you believe that per capita purchasing power was that much higher in France than the UK before Brexit?
    Yes. I’ve seen it myself. Living standards and disposable income are similar across the majority of provincial France to outer London and the Home Counties. And they had nothing like the recessionary contraction we did from the financial crisis.

    I think it’s hard living in inner London to appreciate just how poor most of our country is.
    And I think it is nonsense. Provincial France sounds and looks nice (nicer than many chunks of the UK), and if you have a house in, say, the Burgundy region then it will certainly feel that France is considerably richer than the UK

    And yet if you go to the bainlieues around Lyon, Marseille or Paris, or in the east, then France will feel a lot poorer, and in places poorer than the UK

    As for these precise figures. I am wary. What is this median household fandangle? Is it simply what it says on the tin? The median average income for every household? Then there might several explanations for a disparity

    eg Single person households. Britain has many more than France, 30% of our households are single person, as aganst just 17% in France. That would surely bring down the median a fuck of a lot?

    I may be missing some major detail. Am still quite stoned and listening to neo-folk
    The major detail you are missing is the definition of a median, which I suggest you go look up. When you understand it, you will see that much of your comment is gibberish.
    Despite being right off my nipples, I understand the definition of median

    The formation of households may be different in France (I offer one reason above), leading to this curious disparity

    They may be other shady statitical work afoot, that same page claims that the country with the "fifth highest median income" is..... Ireland.


    Ireland??

    Higher than the USA, Austria or Luxembourg, higher than Denmark, Switzerland, Australia?? Apparently so

    I've been to Ireland, I've been to Switzerland. lol

    Something ain't right with the data
    Ireland’s GDP data are massively distorted by corporate profits. Household income shouldn’t be though. But average household size in Ireland is 2.74 people, so it’s significantly higher than the UK or France. That could account for part of the difference.

    The other thing, though orangemen might disagree, is that Ireland’s Mezzogiorno - Ulster - happens to be accounted for as part of the UK.
    It tells me all the data is rather dodgy, and to be handled with care

    It should not be dismissed entirely, there is obviously some truth here. It *feels* right to me that France is somewhat richer than Britain now (on an average) - we were fecked by the Kredit Krunch, and we are still feeling our way back to a new model, they were less impacted. But I do not think the gulf is nearly as big as this table implies

    Besides, this was not my point. It is performance in very recent years and from now on that concerns me

    If Britain starts to outperform France and Germany that will turn received opinion on its head, esp on the Remainer Left. And of course this is almost inevitable, eventually, everything goes in cycles, and Britain is now significantly decoupled from the EU economy and has likely adapted to the rupture of Brexit. So we will diverge, sometimes do worse - but, yes, sometimes do better
    Actually the point I was trying to make with my original reply - which I somewhat sidetracked by pointing to the absolute data - was the UK annual performance: steep rises till 2016 then flat ever since.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    geoffw said:

     

    Thanks for the explanation Sir Keir

    That's all clear now

    https://twitter.com/Hammer_On_X/status/1735711452168691753

    The great hope of the left exposed in the searchlight of a simple question
    What did his Dad do again?

    https://x.com/humanbollard/status/1735715925779710128?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,140
    edited December 2023

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-the-united-kingdom/

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-france-2010---2021-/

    Look at absolute numbers. Then look at the graph for each country, up to 2016 and then from 2016 onwards.
    Lies, damned lies and statistics. Do you believe that per capita purchasing power was that much higher in France than the UK before Brexit?
    Yes. I’ve seen it myself. Living standards and disposable income are similar across the majority of provincial France to outer London and the Home Counties. And they had nothing like the recessionary contraction we did from the financial crisis.

    I think it’s hard living in inner London to appreciate just how poor most of our country is.
    And I think it is nonsense. Provincial France sounds and looks nice (nicer than many chunks of the UK), and if you have a house in, say, the Burgundy region then it will certainly feel that France is considerably richer than the UK

    And yet if you go to the bainlieues around Lyon, Marseille or Paris, or in the east, then France will feel a lot poorer, and in places poorer than the UK

    As for these precise figures. I am wary. What is this median household fandangle? Is it simply what it says on the tin? The median average income for every household? Then there might several explanations for a disparity

    eg Single person households. Britain has many more than France, 30% of our households are single person, as aganst just 17% in France. That would surely bring down the median a fuck of a lot?

    I may be missing some major detail. Am still quite stoned and listening to neo-folk
    The major detail you are missing is the definition of a median, which I suggest you go look up. When you understand it, you will see that much of your comment is gibberish.
    Despite being right off my nipples, I understand the definition of median

    The formation of households may be different in France (I offer one reason above), leading to this curious disparity

    They may be other shady statitical work afoot, that same page claims that the country with the "fifth highest median income" is..... Ireland.


    Ireland??

    Higher than the USA, Austria or Luxembourg, higher than Denmark, Switzerland, Australia?? Apparently so

    I've been to Ireland, I've been to Switzerland. lol

    Something ain't right with the data
    According to the ONS consumption per capita in 2019 was:

    Germany 122
    UK 113
    France 109
    Italy 99
    Spain 91
    Poland 79

    In 2019, consumption per head in the UK, measured using actual individual consumption (AIC) per head, was equivalent to the seventh highest in the EU, equal to that of Finland and below the Netherlands and Belgium. This is according to new figures recorded by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) and compiled and released by Eurostat, the statistical office of the EU, on 15 December 2020.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/articles/actualindividualconsumptionperheadintheuk/2019

    Of course wealth consumption is not the same as wealth creation and the UK does over consume.

    Anecdotes about how rich or poor a country is based on personal experience are dangerous - you can find big extremes of wealth driving from one village to another across much of Yorkshire for example.

    There's also this:

    https://www.statista.com/forecasts/1156460/real-consumer-spending-per-capita-by-country

    Which gives the UK, and other countries, a surprising high place on consumer spending.
    UK savings rate is 17%, France is 24%. So consumption as a percentage of GDP would be 83/76 x France. UK and French GDP per capita (unlike median household income) are virtually identical, so you’d actually expect consumption to be higher than 113/109 - but that may reflect the fact more of our GDP is corporate profits of foreign headquartered companies, like in Ireland.

    EDIT: in 2022 we would be 107 for consumption apparently. So France caught up with us since 2019 on consumption

    https://x.com/bergaslak/status/1735777076928479608?s=46
  • Options
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-the-united-kingdom/

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-france-2010---2021-/

    Look at absolute numbers. Then look at the graph for each country, up to 2016 and then from 2016 onwards.
    Lies, damned lies and statistics. Do you believe that per capita purchasing power was that much higher in France than the UK before Brexit?
    Yes. I’ve seen it myself. Living standards and disposable income are similar across the majority of provincial France to outer London and the Home Counties. And they had nothing like the recessionary contraction we did from the financial crisis.

    I think it’s hard living in inner London to appreciate just how poor most of our country is.
    And I think it is nonsense. Provincial France sounds and looks nice (nicer than many chunks of the UK), and if you have a house in, say, the Burgundy region then it will certainly feel that France is considerably richer than the UK

    And yet if you go to the bainlieues around Lyon, Marseille or Paris, or in the east, then France will feel a lot poorer, and in places poorer than the UK

    As for these precise figures. I am wary. What is this median household fandangle? Is it simply what it says on the tin? The median average income for every household? Then there might several explanations for a disparity

    eg Single person households. Britain has many more than France, 30% of our households are single person, as aganst just 17% in France. That would surely bring down the median a fuck of a lot?

    I may be missing some major detail. Am still quite stoned and listening to neo-folk
    The charts show a recovery in the UK from 2010 to 2016 following the financial crisis, so the base level in 2010 is a little suppressed. But the stats are the stats.

    Are households on average larger in France than the UK? 2.18 in France, 2.4 here. So it’s not larger households. Do more households have 2 income earners in France? Quite possibly, but I don’t have the data.

    Median household income in the US is $74k by the way, so they put us both in the shade. And that’s median, so despite their inequality, their unaffordable healthcare, their low life expectancy, they’re still almost twice as rich per median household than we are.

    Britain has some extremely poor areas. That’s the issue. It’s why levelling up is a thing. We’re like Italy with the Mezzogiorno only our Mezzogiorno is colder and damper. Whereas London (and its banlieue) is one of the richest places in Europe.

    https://inequalitybriefing.org/graphics/briefing_43_UK_regions_poorest_North_Europe.pdf

    Richer areas tend to be expensive.
    Poorer areas tend to be cheap.

    The ideal thing is to be rich in a cheap area.
    The worst thing is to be poor in an expensive area.

    Poor in a cheap area is okay.
    Rich in an expensive area is okay.

    The poor in an expensive area tend to be visible to outsiders - its usually big cities especially the capital city.
    The rich in a poor area tend to be invisible to outsiders - who visits old industrial areas they have no connection with ?
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,140

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-the-united-kingdom/

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-france-2010---2021-/

    Look at absolute numbers. Then look at the graph for each country, up to 2016 and then from 2016 onwards.
    Lies, damned lies and statistics. Do you believe that per capita purchasing power was that much higher in France than the UK before Brexit?
    Yes. I’ve seen it myself. Living standards and disposable income are similar across the majority of provincial France to outer London and the Home Counties. And they had nothing like the recessionary contraction we did from the financial crisis.

    I think it’s hard living in inner London to appreciate just how poor most of our country is.
    And I think it is nonsense. Provincial France sounds and looks nice (nicer than many chunks of the UK), and if you have a house in, say, the Burgundy region then it will certainly feel that France is considerably richer than the UK

    And yet if you go to the bainlieues around Lyon, Marseille or Paris, or in the east, then France will feel a lot poorer, and in places poorer than the UK

    As for these precise figures. I am wary. What is this median household fandangle? Is it simply what it says on the tin? The median average income for every household? Then there might several explanations for a disparity

    eg Single person households. Britain has many more than France, 30% of our households are single person, as aganst just 17% in France. That would surely bring down the median a fuck of a lot?

    I may be missing some major detail. Am still quite stoned and listening to neo-folk
    The charts show a recovery in the UK from 2010 to 2016 following the financial crisis, so the base level in 2010 is a little suppressed. But the stats are the stats.

    Are households on average larger in France than the UK? 2.18 in France, 2.4 here. So it’s not larger households. Do more households have 2 income earners in France? Quite possibly, but I don’t have the data.

    Median household income in the US is $74k by the way, so they put us both in the shade. And that’s median, so despite their inequality, their unaffordable healthcare, their low life expectancy, they’re still almost twice as rich per median household than we are.

    Britain has some extremely poor areas. That’s the issue. It’s why levelling up is a thing. We’re like Italy with the Mezzogiorno only our Mezzogiorno is colder and damper. Whereas London (and its banlieue) is one of the richest places in Europe.

    https://inequalitybriefing.org/graphics/briefing_43_UK_regions_poorest_North_Europe.pdf

    Richer areas tend to be expensive.
    Poorer areas tend to be cheap.

    The ideal thing is to be rich in a cheap area.
    The worst thing is to be poor in an expensive area.

    Poor in a cheap area is okay.
    Rich in an expensive area is okay.

    The poor in an expensive area tend to be visible to outsiders - its usually big cities especially the capital city.
    The rich in a poor area tend to be invisible to outsiders - who visits old industrial areas they have no connection with ?
    Hence Cornwall being such a problem.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,477
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-the-united-kingdom/

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-france-2010---2021-/

    Look at absolute numbers. Then look at the graph for each country, up to 2016 and then from 2016 onwards.
    Lies, damned lies and statistics. Do you believe that per capita purchasing power was that much higher in France than the UK before Brexit?
    Yes. I’ve seen it myself. Living standards and disposable income are similar across the majority of provincial France to outer London and the Home Counties. And they had nothing like the recessionary contraction we did from the financial crisis.

    I think it’s hard living in inner London to appreciate just how poor most of our country is.
    And I think it is nonsense. Provincial France sounds and looks nice (nicer than many chunks of the UK), and if you have a house in, say, the Burgundy region then it will certainly feel that France is considerably richer than the UK

    And yet if you go to the bainlieues around Lyon, Marseille or Paris, or in the east, then France will feel a lot poorer, and in places poorer than the UK

    As for these precise figures. I am wary. What is this median household fandangle? Is it simply what it says on the tin? The median average income for every household? Then there might several explanations for a disparity

    eg Single person households. Britain has many more than France, 30% of our households are single person, as aganst just 17% in France. That would surely bring down the median a fuck of a lot?

    I may be missing some major detail. Am still quite stoned and listening to neo-folk
    The major detail you are missing is the definition of a median, which I suggest you go look up. When you understand it, you will see that much of your comment is gibberish.
    Despite being right off my nipples, I understand the definition of median

    The formation of households may be different in France (I offer one reason above), leading to this curious disparity

    They may be other shady statitical work afoot, that same page claims that the country with the "fifth highest median income" is..... Ireland.


    Ireland??

    Higher than the USA, Austria or Luxembourg, higher than Denmark, Switzerland, Australia?? Apparently so

    I've been to Ireland, I've been to Switzerland. lol

    Something ain't right with the data
    Ireland’s GDP data are massively distorted by corporate profits. Household income shouldn’t be though. But average household size in Ireland is 2.74 people, so it’s significantly higher than the UK or France. That could account for part of the difference.

    The other thing, though orangemen might disagree, is that Ireland’s Mezzogiorno - Ulster - happens to be accounted for as part of the UK.
    It tells me all the data is rather dodgy, and to be handled with care

    It should not be dismissed entirely, there is obviously some truth here. It *feels* right to me that France is somewhat richer than Britain now (on an average) - we were fecked by the Kredit Krunch, and we are still feeling our way back to a new model, they were less impacted. But I do not think the gulf is nearly as big as this table implies

    Besides, this was not my point. It is performance in very recent years and from now on that concerns me

    If Britain starts to outperform France and Germany that will turn received opinion on its head, esp on the Remainer Left. And of course this is almost inevitable, eventually, everything goes in cycles, and Britain is now significantly decoupled from the EU economy and has likely adapted to the rupture of Brexit. So we will diverge, sometimes do worse - but, yes, sometimes do better
    Actually the point I was trying to make with my original reply - which I somewhat sidetracked by pointing to the absolute data - was the UK annual performance: steep rises till 2016 then flat ever since.
    But using median statistics isn't the best way to make that point if the main variable is where you draw the line between the bottom 50% and the top 50%.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,806
    edited December 2023

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    If the UK economy is finally beginning to decouple from the EU's, and actually perform notably better (certainly than France or Germany) then that is quite a game-changer

    Lots of ifs and buts there, of course. And UK growth is, it can be argued, largely based on clinically insane levels of net migration, nontheless it will be difficult for Remoaners if this becomes a THING

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-the-united-kingdom/

    https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-france-2010---2021-/

    Look at absolute numbers. Then look at the graph for each country, up to 2016 and then from 2016 onwards.
    Lies, damned lies and statistics. Do you believe that per capita purchasing power was that much higher in France than the UK before Brexit?
    Yes. I’ve seen it myself. Living standards and disposable income are similar across the majority of provincial France to outer London and the Home Counties. And they had nothing like the recessionary contraction we did from the financial crisis.

    I think it’s hard living in inner London to appreciate just how poor most of our country is.
    And I think it is nonsense. Provincial France sounds and looks nice (nicer than many chunks of the UK), and if you have a house in, say, the Burgundy region then it will certainly feel that France is considerably richer than the UK

    And yet if you go to the bainlieues around Lyon, Marseille or Paris, or in the east, then France will feel a lot poorer, and in places poorer than the UK

    As for these precise figures. I am wary. What is this median household fandangle? Is it simply what it says on the tin? The median average income for every household? Then there might several explanations for a disparity

    eg Single person households. Britain has many more than France, 30% of our households are single person, as aganst just 17% in France. That would surely bring down the median a fuck of a lot?

    I may be missing some major detail. Am still quite stoned and listening to neo-folk
    The charts show a recovery in the UK from 2010 to 2016 following the financial crisis, so the base level in 2010 is a little suppressed. But the stats are the stats.

    Are households on average larger in France than the UK? 2.18 in France, 2.4 here. So it’s not larger households. Do more households have 2 income earners in France? Quite possibly, but I don’t have the data.

    Median household income in the US is $74k by the way, so they put us both in the shade. And that’s median, so despite their inequality, their unaffordable healthcare, their low life expectancy, they’re still almost twice as rich per median household than we are.

    Britain has some extremely poor areas. That’s the issue. It’s why levelling up is a thing. We’re like Italy with the Mezzogiorno only our Mezzogiorno is colder and damper. Whereas London (and its banlieue) is one of the richest places in Europe.

    https://inequalitybriefing.org/graphics/briefing_43_UK_regions_poorest_North_Europe.pdf

    Richer areas tend to be expensive.
    Poorer areas tend to be cheap.

    The ideal thing is to be rich in a cheap area.

    Staffordshire being the polar opposite of Cornwall...
This discussion has been closed.