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Brexit behaving badly – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,014
edited December 2023 in General
Brexit behaving badly – politicalbetting.com

As far as you are concerned, is Brexit ‘done’?All BritonsIt is done: 24%It is not done: 54%Leave votersDone: 30%Not done: 53%Remain votersDone: 22%Not done: 60%https://t.co/2xXTAoRjVa pic.twitter.com/yzMY5NkWJn

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  • Options
    First?
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,447
    edited November 2023
    Second

    FPT. I have a centre near me with company shops for Le Creuset, Procook, Denby and Tefal.

    Le Creusets strike me as the kind of thing that would smash a floortile should I involuntarily explore its bounciness. And £200+++ is a bit much, even for a generational stew pot.

    They seem to be doing quite a bit of discounting (half price adverts online today), and I think are suffering because there are now other 'brands' which are very nearly as good at a small fraction of the price.

    I'd say that AGA are more resilient, but they need to keep working on the efficiency.
  • Options
    The news gets worse today

    Jeremy Clarkson, James May and Richard Hammond are set to leave The Grand Tour, bringing an end to their 20-year presenting partnership.

    The men, who hosted the BBC series Top Gear from 2003, have all decided to leave the series on Amazon Prime after five seasons.

    Asked if they were leaving, Clarkson told The Times: “We’re done. I have reviewed cars on TV since 1989. That’s 34 years. And after next year, I won’t be doing that any more.

    ...Clarkson is set to release at least one more series of his popular programme Clarkson’s Farm, also on Amazon. May, 60, also stars in travelogues for the streamer where he has visited Japan and Italy, with a new series in India due soon.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/presenters-set-to-bring-down-curtain-on-grand-tour-f767p80zb
  • Options
    On topic.

    Britain is on a “direction of travel” towards eventually rejoining the European Union, the president of the European Commission has claimed, suggesting it is up to the next generation to reverse Brexit.

    Ursula von der Leyen described the signing of the Windsor framework — to amend the controversial Northern Ireland protocol — as “a new beginning for old friends”.

    She suggested that eventually it would be up to her children to “fix” the mistakes of the generation that had allowed Brexit to happen in the first place.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/next-generation-will-reverse-brexit-von-der-leyen-says-9k8trkh78
  • Options
    Like duh. People aren't stupid.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,697

    The news gets worse today

    Jeremy Clarkson, James May and Richard Hammond are set to leave The Grand Tour, bringing an end to their 20-year presenting partnership.

    The men, who hosted the BBC series Top Gear from 2003, have all decided to leave the series on Amazon Prime after five seasons.

    Asked if they were leaving, Clarkson told The Times: “We’re done. I have reviewed cars on TV since 1989. That’s 34 years. And after next year, I won’t be doing that any more.

    ...Clarkson is set to release at least one more series of his popular programme Clarkson’s Farm, also on Amazon. May, 60, also stars in travelogues for the streamer where he has visited Japan and Italy, with a new series in India due soon.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/presenters-set-to-bring-down-curtain-on-grand-tour-f767p80zb

    Less POWAH...

    (am glum now)
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited November 2023

    The news gets worse today

    Jeremy Clarkson, James May and Richard Hammond are set to leave The Grand Tour, bringing an end to their 20-year presenting partnership.

    The men, who hosted the BBC series Top Gear from 2003, have all decided to leave the series on Amazon Prime after five seasons.

    Asked if they were leaving, Clarkson told The Times: “We’re done. I have reviewed cars on TV since 1989. That’s 34 years. And after next year, I won’t be doing that any more.

    ...Clarkson is set to release at least one more series of his popular programme Clarkson’s Farm, also on Amazon. May, 60, also stars in travelogues for the streamer where he has visited Japan and Italy, with a new series in India due soon.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/presenters-set-to-bring-down-curtain-on-grand-tour-f767p80zb

    I would put that down as some good news. Grand Tour is a shadow of former self.

    Clarkson's Farm is much better, its still got the Top Gear "oh look I have done a woopsie" without turning the whole show into one massive staged Some Mothers Do Have Em episode.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859

    The news gets worse today

    Jeremy Clarkson, James May and Richard Hammond are set to leave The Grand Tour, bringing an end to their 20-year presenting partnership.

    The men, who hosted the BBC series Top Gear from 2003, have all decided to leave the series on Amazon Prime after five seasons.

    Asked if they were leaving, Clarkson told The Times: “We’re done. I have reviewed cars on TV since 1989. That’s 34 years. And after next year, I won’t be doing that any more.

    ...Clarkson is set to release at least one more series of his popular programme Clarkson’s Farm, also on Amazon. May, 60, also stars in travelogues for the streamer where he has visited Japan and Italy, with a new series in India due soon.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/presenters-set-to-bring-down-curtain-on-grand-tour-f767p80zb

    News that’s totally unrelated to last week’s news of the BBC ‘pausing’ Top Gear’?
  • Options

    The news gets worse today

    Jeremy Clarkson, James May and Richard Hammond are set to leave The Grand Tour, bringing an end to their 20-year presenting partnership.

    The men, who hosted the BBC series Top Gear from 2003, have all decided to leave the series on Amazon Prime after five seasons.

    Asked if they were leaving, Clarkson told The Times: “We’re done. I have reviewed cars on TV since 1989. That’s 34 years. And after next year, I won’t be doing that any more.

    ...Clarkson is set to release at least one more series of his popular programme Clarkson’s Farm, also on Amazon. May, 60, also stars in travelogues for the streamer where he has visited Japan and Italy, with a new series in India due soon.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/presenters-set-to-bring-down-curtain-on-grand-tour-f767p80zb

    I would point that down as some good news. Grand Tour is a shadow of former self. Clarkson's Farm is much better.
    I love Clarkson's Farm, Kaleb for PM.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,993
    edited November 2023

    The news gets worse today

    Jeremy Clarkson, James May and Richard Hammond are set to leave The Grand Tour, bringing an end to their 20-year presenting partnership.

    The men, who hosted the BBC series Top Gear from 2003, have all decided to leave the series on Amazon Prime after five seasons.

    Asked if they were leaving, Clarkson told The Times: “We’re done. I have reviewed cars on TV since 1989. That’s 34 years. And after next year, I won’t be doing that any more.

    ...Clarkson is set to release at least one more series of his popular programme Clarkson’s Farm, also on Amazon. May, 60, also stars in travelogues for the streamer where he has visited Japan and Italy, with a new series in India due soon.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/presenters-set-to-bring-down-curtain-on-grand-tour-f767p80zb

    One of their recent Grand Tours, where May unfortunately drives in to a cliff inside a tunnel, is one of the funniest things I’ve ever watched. They still have immaculate comic timing, courtesy mainly of Clarkson and Wildman

    So they are not slinking away in disgrace

    However with Clarkson revealing that he now needs a hearing aid so as to avoid dementia, it is probably time. At some point it becomes ludicrous
  • Options
    I can't quite figure out what has tarnished the Brexit brand to this extent. Remember, it was once predicted that as soon as the Tories got a Leaver PM - and the Tory voters no longer had to pretend out of loyalty to Dave - then pro-Brexit sentiment would be running at 70-80%. What happened? Was it Boris?
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    El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870

    The news gets worse today

    Jeremy Clarkson, James May and Richard Hammond are set to leave The Grand Tour, bringing an end to their 20-year presenting partnership.

    The men, who hosted the BBC series Top Gear from 2003, have all decided to leave the series on Amazon Prime after five seasons.

    Asked if they were leaving, Clarkson told The Times: “We’re done. I have reviewed cars on TV since 1989. That’s 34 years. And after next year, I won’t be doing that any more.

    ...Clarkson is set to release at least one more series of his popular programme Clarkson’s Farm, also on Amazon. May, 60, also stars in travelogues for the streamer where he has visited Japan and Italy, with a new series in India due soon.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/presenters-set-to-bring-down-curtain-on-grand-tour-f767p80zb

    I would point that down as some good news. Grand Tour is a shadow of former self. Clarkson's Farm is much better.
    I love Clarkson's Farm, Kaleb for PM.
    I'm sure you'll agree he'd be the best Prime Minister ever to come from Chipping Norton.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,697

    The news gets worse today

    Jeremy Clarkson, James May and Richard Hammond are set to leave The Grand Tour, bringing an end to their 20-year presenting partnership.

    The men, who hosted the BBC series Top Gear from 2003, have all decided to leave the series on Amazon Prime after five seasons.

    Asked if they were leaving, Clarkson told The Times: “We’re done. I have reviewed cars on TV since 1989. That’s 34 years. And after next year, I won’t be doing that any more.

    ...Clarkson is set to release at least one more series of his popular programme Clarkson’s Farm, also on Amazon. May, 60, also stars in travelogues for the streamer where he has visited Japan and Italy, with a new series in India due soon.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/presenters-set-to-bring-down-curtain-on-grand-tour-f767p80zb

    • Shane MacGowan
    • Henry Kissinger
    • Alaistair Darling
    • Jimmy Corkhill
    • The Grand Tour
    • Top Gear
    who's next... :(
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,993
    edited November 2023
    ON topic as much as I dislike this pollling, I can’t deny it

    I do wonder if PM Starmer will briskly push through Single Market membership (without a referendum). What’s the point in a 200 seat majority if you don’t use it to do something dramatic. This would be it

    He will never get a better chance than in his first year or two, Blair’s premiership teaches us that
  • Options

    The news gets worse today

    Jeremy Clarkson, James May and Richard Hammond are set to leave The Grand Tour, bringing an end to their 20-year presenting partnership.

    The men, who hosted the BBC series Top Gear from 2003, have all decided to leave the series on Amazon Prime after five seasons.

    Asked if they were leaving, Clarkson told The Times: “We’re done. I have reviewed cars on TV since 1989. That’s 34 years. And after next year, I won’t be doing that any more.

    ...Clarkson is set to release at least one more series of his popular programme Clarkson’s Farm, also on Amazon. May, 60, also stars in travelogues for the streamer where he has visited Japan and Italy, with a new series in India due soon.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/presenters-set-to-bring-down-curtain-on-grand-tour-f767p80zb

    I would point that down as some good news. Grand Tour is a shadow of former self. Clarkson's Farm is much better.
    I love Clarkson's Farm, Kaleb for PM.
    I'm sure you'll agree he'd be the best Prime Minister ever to come from Chipping Norton.
    Second best.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,629
    viewcode said:

    The news gets worse today

    Jeremy Clarkson, James May and Richard Hammond are set to leave The Grand Tour, bringing an end to their 20-year presenting partnership.

    The men, who hosted the BBC series Top Gear from 2003, have all decided to leave the series on Amazon Prime after five seasons.

    Asked if they were leaving, Clarkson told The Times: “We’re done. I have reviewed cars on TV since 1989. That’s 34 years. And after next year, I won’t be doing that any more.

    ...Clarkson is set to release at least one more series of his popular programme Clarkson’s Farm, also on Amazon. May, 60, also stars in travelogues for the streamer where he has visited Japan and Italy, with a new series in India due soon.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/presenters-set-to-bring-down-curtain-on-grand-tour-f767p80zb

    • Shane MacGowan
    • Henry Kissinger
    • Alaistair Darling
    • Jimmy Corkhill
    • The Grand Tour
    • Top Gear
    who's next... :(
    Brexit by the look of it.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,530
    "Geert Wilders’ victory is a dire threat to the EU
    The uncooperative presence of a populist-led Netherlands could wreck Brussels’ flagship legislative projects.
    By Wolfgang Münchau"

    https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2023/11/geert-wilders-victory-netherlands-threat-european-union
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    theakestheakes Posts: 841
    Apparently Wilders having immense problems getting other parties to join him in a coalition. Any bets on him being leader of the opposition against a Left, Centre, Centre Right coalition government..
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,938

    The news gets worse today

    Jeremy Clarkson, James May and Richard Hammond are set to leave The Grand Tour, bringing an end to their 20-year presenting partnership.

    The men, who hosted the BBC series Top Gear from 2003, have all decided to leave the series on Amazon Prime after five seasons.

    Asked if they were leaving, Clarkson told The Times: “We’re done. I have reviewed cars on TV since 1989. That’s 34 years. And after next year, I won’t be doing that any more.

    ...Clarkson is set to release at least one more series of his popular programme Clarkson’s Farm, also on Amazon. May, 60, also stars in travelogues for the streamer where he has visited Japan and Italy, with a new series in India due soon.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/presenters-set-to-bring-down-curtain-on-grand-tour-f767p80zb

    I would point that down as some good news. Grand Tour is a shadow of former self. Clarkson's Farm is much better.
    I love Clarkson's Farm, Kaleb for PM.
    Americans are much more likely to know Jeremy Clarkson from his farm than from Top Gear.
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    The news gets worse today

    Jeremy Clarkson, James May and Richard Hammond are set to leave The Grand Tour, bringing an end to their 20-year presenting partnership.

    The men, who hosted the BBC series Top Gear from 2003, have all decided to leave the series on Amazon Prime after five seasons.

    Asked if they were leaving, Clarkson told The Times: “We’re done. I have reviewed cars on TV since 1989. That’s 34 years. And after next year, I won’t be doing that any more.

    ...Clarkson is set to release at least one more series of his popular programme Clarkson’s Farm, also on Amazon. May, 60, also stars in travelogues for the streamer where he has visited Japan and Italy, with a new series in India due soon.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/presenters-set-to-bring-down-curtain-on-grand-tour-f767p80zb

    I would point that down as some good news. Grand Tour is a shadow of former self. Clarkson's Farm is much better.
    I love Clarkson's Farm, Kaleb for PM.
    Americans are much more likely to know Jeremy Clarkson from his farm than from Top Gear.
    I didn't think Clarksons Farm did very in US market. Where as Top Gear definitely did.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,635

    Like duh. People aren't stupid.

    It's a bit like asking 'do bears s**** in woods and sing songs that upset Celtic fans?', yes.

    I mean, HMG hasn't even got the customs completely sorted out yet!

  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,133
    In retrospect Brexit will be seen as the event that finally vindicated Britain's membership of the European Union.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    I think rejoining the single market, either bilaterally or via the EEA, needs some sort of referendum in support. Maybe just an indicative one, but having voted OUT, the public need the opportunity to vote (to some extent) IN.

    But if Keir is looking for measures to deliver growth, this is an obvious one, and looks to have quite widespread support now.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,938
    With so much sadness* and death, it's time to fire up the most perfect movie soundtrack of all time.

    Trainspotting. 14 perfect songs.

    Embrace it people.

    (Bizarrely, it' not available on Spotify. So here's a playlist someone created on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPAfi7VbU4g&list=PLkdH33fATc7ugUi9E3Y7rXGNQlBp9E5RG&ab_channel=BaseAllMighty)

    * Not Henry Kissinger, obviously
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,938
    MattW said:

    Second

    FPT. I have a centre near me with company shops for Le Creuset, Procook, Denby and Tefal.

    Le Creusets strike me as the kind of thing that would smash a floortile should I involuntarily explore its bounciness. And £200+++ is a bit much, even for a generational stew pot.

    They seem to be doing quite a bit of discounting (half price adverts online today), and I think are suffering because there are now other 'brands' which are very nearly as good at a small fraction of the price.

    I'd say that AGA are more resilient, but they need to keep working on the efficiency.

    I moved into my own apartment a little more than 21 years ago. Pretty much the only thing that has survived marriage, many moves, children and animals, is a Le Creuset cast iron frying pan.

    And it was used as recently as Tuesday to sear a steak.

    So, not inexpensive. But quite capable of lasting a lifetime.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    rcs1000 said:

    With so much sadness* and death, it's time to fire up the most perfect movie soundtrack of all time.

    Trainspotting. 14 perfect songs.

    Embrace it people.

    (Bizarrely, it' not available on Spotify. So here's a playlist someone created on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPAfi7VbU4g&list=PLkdH33fATc7ugUi9E3Y7rXGNQlBp9E5RG&ab_channel=BaseAllMighty)

    * Not Henry Kissinger, obviously

    Best movie soundtrack of all time - at least for those of us who were 18 in 1996.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,938
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    With so much sadness* and death, it's time to fire up the most perfect movie soundtrack of all time.

    Trainspotting. 14 perfect songs.

    Embrace it people.

    (Bizarrely, it' not available on Spotify. So here's a playlist someone created on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPAfi7VbU4g&list=PLkdH33fATc7ugUi9E3Y7rXGNQlBp9E5RG&ab_channel=BaseAllMighty)

    * Not Henry Kissinger, obviously

    Best movie soundtrack of all time - at least for those of us who were 18 in 1996.
    Wasn't bad for those of us who were 21!
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,938

    rcs1000 said:

    The news gets worse today

    Jeremy Clarkson, James May and Richard Hammond are set to leave The Grand Tour, bringing an end to their 20-year presenting partnership.

    The men, who hosted the BBC series Top Gear from 2003, have all decided to leave the series on Amazon Prime after five seasons.

    Asked if they were leaving, Clarkson told The Times: “We’re done. I have reviewed cars on TV since 1989. That’s 34 years. And after next year, I won’t be doing that any more.

    ...Clarkson is set to release at least one more series of his popular programme Clarkson’s Farm, also on Amazon. May, 60, also stars in travelogues for the streamer where he has visited Japan and Italy, with a new series in India due soon.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/presenters-set-to-bring-down-curtain-on-grand-tour-f767p80zb

    I would point that down as some good news. Grand Tour is a shadow of former self. Clarkson's Farm is much better.
    I love Clarkson's Farm, Kaleb for PM.
    Americans are much more likely to know Jeremy Clarkson from his farm than from Top Gear.
    I didn't think Clarksons Farm did very in US market. Where as Top Gear definitely did.
    Let me rephrase,

    Among my circle of American friends, Clarkson is best known for his farm.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    edited November 2023
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    With so much sadness* and death, it's time to fire up the most perfect movie soundtrack of all time.

    Trainspotting. 14 perfect songs.

    Embrace it people.

    (Bizarrely, it' not available on Spotify. So here's a playlist someone created on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPAfi7VbU4g&list=PLkdH33fATc7ugUi9E3Y7rXGNQlBp9E5RG&ab_channel=BaseAllMighty)

    * Not Henry Kissinger, obviously

    Best movie soundtrack of all time - at least for those of us who were 18 in 1996.
    Wasn't bad for those of us who were 21!
    The only movie I’ve ever seen three times in the cinema.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,504

    I can't quite figure out what has tarnished the Brexit brand to this extent. Remember, it was once predicted that as soon as the Tories got a Leaver PM - and the Tory voters no longer had to pretend out of loyalty to Dave - then pro-Brexit sentiment would be running at 70-80%. What happened? Was it Boris?

    What happened to the Brexit brand?

    a) A plurality, perhaps a majority, of UK population wanted in fact to be in the single market except for FOM

    b) A majority would have been happy with a reformed EU, with a few more derogations as we had over the Euro

    c) A lot of people wanted the trade alliance but not the ever closer political union (flag, pseudo parliament, anthems, rhetoric)

    d) The referendum didn't offer what most people wanted and Cameron failed to get - reform of the EU

    e) Brexit won because it ran a marginally less execrable campaign than Remain. partly they were both terrible because what we wanted wasn't on offer

    f) Its only real merit was being out of FOM

    g) But net migration last year was +700,000. So what's the point? We may as well have SM+Bulgarian fruit pickers as no SM+Paraguayan fruit pickers.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    edited November 2023

    I think rejoining the single market, either bilaterally or via the EEA, needs some sort of referendum in support. Maybe just an indicative one, but having voted OUT, the public need the opportunity to vote (to some extent) IN.

    But if Keir is looking for measures to deliver growth, this is an obvious one, and looks to have quite widespread support now.

    Not really. Referendums are necessarily divisive and not necessarily well-informed.

    But in the absence of a referendum, it does need a clear electoral mandate in terms of a manifesto commitment.

    'Rejoin' *would* need a referendum, IMO, manifesto commitment or not. It'd be such a significant constitutional change and the EU would probably want one before ratification too, to minimise the risk of more in-out hokey-cokey nonsense.
  • Options
    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,532
    edited November 2023
    The key figure is the 72% who support closer ties with the EU. Rejoining the Single Market won't be in Labour's manifesto, obviously, so Starmer won't touch that - in his first term at least. But what he and Reeves will do is take rapid steps to please the 72% who want closer ties with the EU. That may herald a more significant change for Starmer's second term, if he gets that far.

    Whatever is decided in the longer term, it will be via a manifesto rather than a referendum - no sane politician would touch another EU referendum with a bargepole.
  • Options
    CatManCatMan Posts: 2,765
    edited November 2023
    I see The Guardian has named the royals mentioned in the Dutch translation of the book. Surely the BBC has to at some point as well?
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,447
    edited November 2023
    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    Second

    FPT. I have a centre near me with company shops for Le Creuset, Procook, Denby and Tefal.

    Le Creusets strike me as the kind of thing that would smash a floortile should I involuntarily explore its bounciness. And £200+++ is a bit much, even for a generational stew pot.

    They seem to be doing quite a bit of discounting (half price adverts online today), and I think are suffering because there are now other 'brands' which are very nearly as good at a small fraction of the price.

    I'd say that AGA are more resilient, but they need to keep working on the efficiency.

    I moved into my own apartment a little more than 21 years ago. Pretty much the only thing that has survived marriage, many moves, children and animals, is a Le Creuset cast iron frying pan.

    And it was used as recently as Tuesday to sear a steak.

    So, not inexpensive. But quite capable of lasting a lifetime.
    It's interesting what I still have from my parents' wedding in 1960 - quite a quantity.

    The star item (ie I like it) is probably an Old Hall Robert Welch Oriana stainless steel teapot etc, which is still modern and more functional than any other I have seen.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,466

    On topic.

    Britain is on a “direction of travel” towards eventually rejoining the European Union, the president of the European Commission has claimed, suggesting it is up to the next generation to reverse Brexit.

    Ursula von der Leyen described the signing of the Windsor framework — to amend the controversial Northern Ireland protocol — as “a new beginning for old friends”.

    She suggested that eventually it would be up to her children to “fix” the mistakes of the generation that had allowed Brexit to happen in the first place.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/next-generation-will-reverse-brexit-von-der-leyen-says-9k8trkh78

    I notice that set of anodyne pabulum seems to have wound up Sunak considerably.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,133
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    With so much sadness* and death, it's time to fire up the most perfect movie soundtrack of all time.

    Trainspotting. 14 perfect songs.

    Embrace it people.

    (Bizarrely, it' not available on Spotify. So here's a playlist someone created on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPAfi7VbU4g&list=PLkdH33fATc7ugUi9E3Y7rXGNQlBp9E5RG&ab_channel=BaseAllMighty)

    * Not Henry Kissinger, obviously

    Best movie soundtrack of all time - at least for those of us who were 18 in 1996.
    Wasn't bad for those of us who were 21!
    Those of us who were 22, on the other hand, found it far too difficult to comprehend.
  • Options
    theakes said:

    Apparently Wilders having immense problems getting other parties to join him in a coalition. Any bets on him being leader of the opposition against a Left, Centre, Centre Right coalition government..

    If only they’d had FPTP, that would have shut the bouffanted populist out.

    Oh.


  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,911

    I think rejoining the single market, either bilaterally or via the EEA, needs some sort of referendum in support. Maybe just an indicative one, but having voted OUT, the public need the opportunity to vote (to some extent) IN.

    But if Keir is looking for measures to deliver growth, this is an obvious one, and looks to have quite widespread support now.

    Not really. Referendums are necessarily divisive and not necessarily well-informed.

    But in the absence of a referendum, it does need a clear electoral mandate in terms of a manifesto commitment.

    'Rejoin' *would* need a referendum, IMO, manifesto commitment or not. It'd be such a significant constitutional change and the EU would probably want one before ratification too, to minimise the risk of more in-out hokey-cokey nonsense.
    Let’s hope the next PM isn’t someone who pledges all sorts of things in order to get elected, then does a 180 on almost all of them afterwards
  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    With so much sadness* and death, it's time to fire up the most perfect movie soundtrack of all time.

    Trainspotting. 14 perfect songs.

    Embrace it people.

    (Bizarrely, it' not available on Spotify. So here's a playlist someone created on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPAfi7VbU4g&list=PLkdH33fATc7ugUi9E3Y7rXGNQlBp9E5RG&ab_channel=BaseAllMighty)

    * Not Henry Kissinger, obviously

    Best movie soundtrack of all time - at least for those of us who were 18 in 1996.
    Wasn't bad for those of us who were 21!
    The only movie I’ve even seen three times in the cinema.
    I borrowed the book off a friend - around the time the film came out but before I saw it - and stayed up til the early hours reading it in one go. I'll have been 17 or 18.

    Cliché, I know, but the book is far, far better than the film. And the film is brilliant. Takes some time to get used to it being written in Scottish accent/dialect but once it clicks in your head you're away.

    Well worth a read if you haven't already.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    edited November 2023
    DougSeal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    With so much sadness* and death, it's time to fire up the most perfect movie soundtrack of all time.

    Trainspotting. 14 perfect songs.

    Embrace it people.

    (Bizarrely, it' not available on Spotify. So here's a playlist someone created on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPAfi7VbU4g&list=PLkdH33fATc7ugUi9E3Y7rXGNQlBp9E5RG&ab_channel=BaseAllMighty)

    * Not Henry Kissinger, obviously

    Best movie soundtrack of all time - at least for those of us who were 18 in 1996.
    Wasn't bad for those of us who were 21!
    Those of us who were 22, on the other hand, found it far too difficult to comprehend.
    Choose life.
    Choose a job, choose a career, choose a family, choose a * big television.

    I’ll take a guess you did all of that, and didn’t choose something else?
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,447
    edited November 2023
    Nigelb said:

    On topic.

    Britain is on a “direction of travel” towards eventually rejoining the European Union, the president of the European Commission has claimed, suggesting it is up to the next generation to reverse Brexit.

    Ursula von der Leyen described the signing of the Windsor framework — to amend the controversial Northern Ireland protocol — as “a new beginning for old friends”.

    She suggested that eventually it would be up to her children to “fix” the mistakes of the generation that had allowed Brexit to happen in the first place.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/next-generation-will-reverse-brexit-von-der-leyen-says-9k8trkh78

    I notice that set of anodyne pabulum seems to have wound up Sunak considerably.
    Point of Order.

    pabula ?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,466
    So the poll essentially says that Brexit isn't done, and the majority think that the way to get it done ... is to undo it ?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,466
    MattW said:

    Nigelb said:

    On topic.

    Britain is on a “direction of travel” towards eventually rejoining the European Union, the president of the European Commission has claimed, suggesting it is up to the next generation to reverse Brexit.

    Ursula von der Leyen described the signing of the Windsor framework — to amend the controversial Northern Ireland protocol — as “a new beginning for old friends”.

    She suggested that eventually it would be up to her children to “fix” the mistakes of the generation that had allowed Brexit to happen in the first place.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/next-generation-will-reverse-brexit-von-der-leyen-says-9k8trkh78

    I notice that set of anodyne pabulum seems to have wound up Sunak considerably.
    Point of Order.

    pabula ?
    Yes, sorry. Pabulums.
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    With so much sadness* and death, it's time to fire up the most perfect movie soundtrack of all time.

    Trainspotting. 14 perfect songs.

    Embrace it people.

    (Bizarrely, it' not available on Spotify. So here's a playlist someone created on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPAfi7VbU4g&list=PLkdH33fATc7ugUi9E3Y7rXGNQlBp9E5RG&ab_channel=BaseAllMighty)

    * Not Henry Kissinger, obviously

    You can listen on Spotify via user created play lists. I think this is typical of movie or TV soundtracks that aren't original music (I would really recommend the Last Days of Disco soundtrack playlist BTW).
    Trainspotting is a great film, probably the film of our generation. I remember going to see a screening with a Q&A with Danny Boyle and John Hodge afterwards when it came out. John Hodge signed my copy of the screenplay. Irvine Welsh was the novelist of our generation, too, in Scotland at least. His books were everywhere in a way I've not seen with any other writer.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,133
    Sandpit said:

    DougSeal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    With so much sadness* and death, it's time to fire up the most perfect movie soundtrack of all time.

    Trainspotting. 14 perfect songs.

    Embrace it people.

    (Bizarrely, it' not available on Spotify. So here's a playlist someone created on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPAfi7VbU4g&list=PLkdH33fATc7ugUi9E3Y7rXGNQlBp9E5RG&ab_channel=BaseAllMighty)

    * Not Henry Kissinger, obviously

    Best movie soundtrack of all time - at least for those of us who were 18 in 1996.
    Wasn't bad for those of us who were 21!
    Those of us who were 22, on the other hand, found it far too difficult to comprehend.
    Choose life.
    Choose a job, choose a career, choose a family, choose a * big television.

    I’ll take a guess you did all of that, and didn’t choose something else?
    Didn’t choose the TV
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,938
    Sandpit said:

    DougSeal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    With so much sadness* and death, it's time to fire up the most perfect movie soundtrack of all time.

    Trainspotting. 14 perfect songs.

    Embrace it people.

    (Bizarrely, it' not available on Spotify. So here's a playlist someone created on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPAfi7VbU4g&list=PLkdH33fATc7ugUi9E3Y7rXGNQlBp9E5RG&ab_channel=BaseAllMighty)

    * Not Henry Kissinger, obviously

    Best movie soundtrack of all time - at least for those of us who were 18 in 1996.
    Wasn't bad for those of us who were 21!
    Those of us who were 22, on the other hand, found it far too difficult to comprehend.
    Choose life.
    Choose a job, choose a career, choose a family, choose a * big television.

    I’ll take a guess you did all of that, and didn’t choose something else?
    I chose hanging out on an obscure internet political website. Equally addictive. Probably also not great for the health.

    But I'm going to kick it, don't worry.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,938

    rcs1000 said:

    With so much sadness* and death, it's time to fire up the most perfect movie soundtrack of all time.

    Trainspotting. 14 perfect songs.

    Embrace it people.

    (Bizarrely, it' not available on Spotify. So here's a playlist someone created on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPAfi7VbU4g&list=PLkdH33fATc7ugUi9E3Y7rXGNQlBp9E5RG&ab_channel=BaseAllMighty)

    * Not Henry Kissinger, obviously

    You can listen on Spotify via user created play lists. I think this is typical of movie or TV soundtracks that aren't original music (I would really recommend the Last Days of Disco soundtrack playlist BTW).
    Trainspotting is a great film, probably the film of our generation. I remember going to see a screening with a Q&A with Danny Boyle and John Hodge afterwards when it came out. John Hodge signed my copy of the screenplay. Irvine Welsh was the novelist of our generation, too, in Scotland at least. His books were everywhere in a way I've not seen with any other writer.
    I'm listening to it on YouTube Music (which comes free with my Google Family Plan) using a user generated playlist :-)
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,937
    DougSeal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    With so much sadness* and death, it's time to fire up the most perfect movie soundtrack of all time.

    Trainspotting. 14 perfect songs.

    Embrace it people.

    (Bizarrely, it' not available on Spotify. So here's a playlist someone created on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPAfi7VbU4g&list=PLkdH33fATc7ugUi9E3Y7rXGNQlBp9E5RG&ab_channel=BaseAllMighty)

    * Not Henry Kissinger, obviously

    Best movie soundtrack of all time - at least for those of us who were 18 in 1996.
    Wasn't bad for those of us who were 21!
    Those of us who were 22, on the other hand, found it far too difficult to comprehend.
    I was 23. A younger friend was really raving about wanting to watch it, but I just thought: "Why would I want to sit in the cinema watching the sad antics of a load of druggies? I lived in London for five years..."
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,938

    DougSeal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    With so much sadness* and death, it's time to fire up the most perfect movie soundtrack of all time.

    Trainspotting. 14 perfect songs.

    Embrace it people.

    (Bizarrely, it' not available on Spotify. So here's a playlist someone created on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPAfi7VbU4g&list=PLkdH33fATc7ugUi9E3Y7rXGNQlBp9E5RG&ab_channel=BaseAllMighty)

    * Not Henry Kissinger, obviously

    Best movie soundtrack of all time - at least for those of us who were 18 in 1996.
    Wasn't bad for those of us who were 21!
    Those of us who were 22, on the other hand, found it far too difficult to comprehend.
    I was 23. A younger friend was really raving about wanting to watch it, but I just thought: "Why would I want to sit in the cinema watching the sad antics of a load of druggies? I lived in London for five years..."
    Wait. You still haven't seen it?
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,937
    "#BREAKING: Hamas leader in Gaza Yahya Sinwar in his first publicized statements since launching Al Aqsa Floods campaign:

    "The leaders of the Occupation should know, October 7th was just a rehearsal""

    https://twitter.com/gaza_report/status/1730241713472414075
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    A lovely obituary, that focuses on Darling’s key role in the 2014 referendum.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/30/alistair-darling-put-country-before-party-and-saved-the-un/
    “It says a great deal about the man that across the disparate parties and interests of Better Together, there was virtually unanimous support for Darling’s appointment as chair. To his efforts can be attributed the defeat of the nationalist project (if not the nationalists themselves) and the continuation of the world’s most successful political, economic and social Union.”
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,358
    edited November 2023
    CatMan said:

    I see The Guardian has named the royals mentioned in the Dutch translation of the book. Surely the BBC has to at some point as well?

    It’s kinda funny this because the only people really obsessed with the whiteness of the skin colour of mixed race kids are Asian people, they really want the skin colour to be really white.

    Was also my experience when I sired mixed race kids.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,937
    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    With so much sadness* and death, it's time to fire up the most perfect movie soundtrack of all time.

    Trainspotting. 14 perfect songs.

    Embrace it people.

    (Bizarrely, it' not available on Spotify. So here's a playlist someone created on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPAfi7VbU4g&list=PLkdH33fATc7ugUi9E3Y7rXGNQlBp9E5RG&ab_channel=BaseAllMighty)

    * Not Henry Kissinger, obviously

    Best movie soundtrack of all time - at least for those of us who were 18 in 1996.
    Wasn't bad for those of us who were 21!
    Those of us who were 22, on the other hand, found it far too difficult to comprehend.
    I was 23. A younger friend was really raving about wanting to watch it, but I just thought: "Why would I want to sit in the cinema watching the sad antics of a load of druggies? I lived in London for five years..."
    Wait. You still haven't seen it?
    Actually, I haven't. Not particularly interested in it; saw enough of that sort of world in London. And, to think of it, before.

    There was a drug problem even in a tiny town like provincial Uttoxeter, in the late 1980s, at least.

    I've seen loads of clips, and I daresay it's well-acted and well-written, but it's just not my cup of tea. Or syringe of heroin.

    Perhaps I missed out on something. But there are certain types of films I just don't like. Courtroom dramas bore me (sorry, all PB's lawyers). Mafia films ditto. Though to be fair, there are exceptions in each category.
  • Options
    Nigelb said:

    So the poll essentially says that Brexit isn't done, and the majority think that the way to get it done ... is to undo it ?

    Yup.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,504

    Nigelb said:

    So the poll essentially says that Brexit isn't done, and the majority think that the way to get it done ... is to undo it ?

    Yup.
    That's not all that astonishing given the situation where most people don't want either of the outcomes in any sort of heartfelt way, as the sort of reformed EU Cameron was aiming at was not and is not on offer.
  • Options

    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    With so much sadness* and death, it's time to fire up the most perfect movie soundtrack of all time.

    Trainspotting. 14 perfect songs.

    Embrace it people.

    (Bizarrely, it' not available on Spotify. So here's a playlist someone created on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPAfi7VbU4g&list=PLkdH33fATc7ugUi9E3Y7rXGNQlBp9E5RG&ab_channel=BaseAllMighty)

    * Not Henry Kissinger, obviously

    Best movie soundtrack of all time - at least for those of us who were 18 in 1996.
    Wasn't bad for those of us who were 21!
    Those of us who were 22, on the other hand, found it far too difficult to comprehend.
    I was 23. A younger friend was really raving about wanting to watch it, but I just thought: "Why would I want to sit in the cinema watching the sad antics of a load of druggies? I lived in London for five years..."
    Wait. You still haven't seen it?
    Actually, I haven't. Not particularly interested in it; saw enough of that sort of world in London. And, to think of it, before.

    There was a drug problem even in a tiny town like provincial Uttoxeter, in the late 1980s, at least.

    I've seen loads of clips, and I daresay it's well-acted and well-written, but it's just not my cup of tea. Or syringe of heroin.

    Perhaps I missed out on something. But there are certain types of films I just don't like. Courtroom dramas bore me (sorry, all PB's lawyers). Mafia films ditto. Though to be fair, there are exceptions in each category.
    It's not really a gritty-realism film. More a slightly surreal dark comedy.
  • Options

    The key figure is the 72% who support closer ties with the EU. Rejoining the Single Market won't be in Labour's manifesto, obviously, so Starmer won't touch that - in his first term at least. But what he and Reeves will do is take rapid steps to please the 72% who want closer ties with the EU. That may herald a more significant change for Starmer's second term, if he gets that far.

    Whatever is decided in the longer term, it will be via a manifesto rather than a referendum - no sane politician would touch another EU referendum with a bargepole.

    As one of the 72% I agree with you
  • Options
    Nigelb said:

    On topic.

    Britain is on a “direction of travel” towards eventually rejoining the European Union, the president of the European Commission has claimed, suggesting it is up to the next generation to reverse Brexit.

    Ursula von der Leyen described the signing of the Windsor framework — to amend the controversial Northern Ireland protocol — as “a new beginning for old friends”.

    She suggested that eventually it would be up to her children to “fix” the mistakes of the generation that had allowed Brexit to happen in the first place.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/next-generation-will-reverse-brexit-von-der-leyen-says-9k8trkh78

    I notice that set of anodyne pabulum seems to have wound up Sunak considerably.
    Starmer’s going to have so much fun winding up the thin skinned Sunak during the campaign.
  • Options
    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,137
    MattW said:

    I've always had Alistair Darling down as someone with whom I would enjoy sharing a dram.

    I do love the photo over on the BBC of a younger Darling who looks like a cross between Noel Edmonds and a Klingon.


    The generational transition from "Male Labour MPs all have beards" to "Male Labour MPs are all clean shaven" that occurs in the period 1996-2000.
  • Options
    Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,499
    FPT: (Since some of you are still discussing Kissinger's death.) Here are two reactions from the Washington Post. First, from the Editorial Board:
    "In less than four years during the early 1970s, Mr. Kissinger brokered the opening of relations between the United States and China, the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Vietnam, major arms-control agreements with the Soviet Union, and Israeli-Arab accords that made the United States the dominant power in the Middle East."
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/11/29/henry-kissinger-legacy-debate/

    Second, from conservative columnist George Will, this reminder:
    "A decade after Kissinger left the State Department, communism, whose confidence flowed from Marxism’s economic determinism, absorbed a brutal, indeed fatal, lesson in the importance of economic factors. In 1976, Ronald Reagan challenged Ford for the Republican nomination by running against Kissingerism. And at the 1986 summit in Iceland, Reagan icily told Mikhail Gorbachev that if there were to be an intensified arms race, he, Reagan, could guarantee that America would win it. The statesman’s task, Kissinger believed, is “to rescue an element of choice from the pressure of circumstance.” He helped manage the Cold War until the nation chose a president determined not to manage it but to win it."
    source$:https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/11/29/henry-kissinger-legacy-george-will/

    (For the record: In 1979, I broke out laughing when I realized that Reagan would probably win the Republican nomination -- and that I would probably be voting for him.)
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,937
    Incidentally, there are strong rumours that someone has blown up a railway line linking Russia with China. This may have occurred in a tunnel, in which case repairs might be quite time-consuming. If, as rumoured, it was a fuel train that went up, then it might be very badly damaged. Think Channel Tunnel in 1996, or Summit Tunnel fire in 1984.

    https://www.railway.supply/en/explosion-in-the-severomuysky-tunnel-in-buryatia-on-the-baikal-amur-mainline/
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,553

    CatMan said:

    I see The Guardian has named the royals mentioned in the Dutch translation of the book. Surely the BBC has to at some point as well?

    It’s kinda funny this because the only people really obsessed with the whiteness of the skin colour of mixed race kids are Asian people, they really want the skin colour to be really white.

    Was also my experience when I sired mixed race kids.
    Well there’s this strange contradiction in white skinned people of wanting to look healthy and tanned, despite decades of medical warnings about skin cancer and premature ageing.

    It’s still a source of shame, when really it oughtn’t to be, realising the pallid pastiness of oneself and one’s children on holiday next to the healthy poreless skin, athletic physique and golden blond hair of the Swedish and Dutch kids.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,960

    CatMan said:

    I see The Guardian has named the royals mentioned in the Dutch translation of the book. Surely the BBC has to at some point as well?

    It’s kinda funny this because the only people really obsessed with the whiteness of the skin colour of mixed race kids are Asian people, they really want the skin colour to be really white.

    Was also my experience when I sired mixed race kids.
    Mine, too; although in my case it was half-Thai grandchildren.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,938

    FPT: (Since some of you are still discussing Kissinger's death.) Here are two reactions from the Washington Post. First, from the Editorial Board:
    "In less than four years during the early 1970s, Mr. Kissinger brokered the opening of relations between the United States and China, the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Vietnam, major arms-control agreements with the Soviet Union, and Israeli-Arab accords that made the United States the dominant power in the Middle East."
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/11/29/henry-kissinger-legacy-debate/

    Second, from conservative columnist George Will, this reminder:
    "A decade after Kissinger left the State Department, communism, whose confidence flowed from Marxism’s economic determinism, absorbed a brutal, indeed fatal, lesson in the importance of economic factors. In 1976, Ronald Reagan challenged Ford for the Republican nomination by running against Kissingerism. And at the 1986 summit in Iceland, Reagan icily told Mikhail Gorbachev that if there were to be an intensified arms race, he, Reagan, could guarantee that America would win it. The statesman’s task, Kissinger believed, is “to rescue an element of choice from the pressure of circumstance.” He helped manage the Cold War until the nation chose a president determined not to manage it but to win it."
    source$:https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/11/29/henry-kissinger-legacy-george-will/

    (For the record: In 1979, I broke out laughing when I realized that Reagan would probably win the Republican nomination -- and that I would probably be voting for him.)

    Kissinger also deliberately weakened the likelihood of peace in Vietnam for narrow political aims. Americans died so that his candidate could win the Presidency.

    He was an absolute peace of shit. And I don't say that lightly.
  • Options
    TimS said:

    CatMan said:

    I see The Guardian has named the royals mentioned in the Dutch translation of the book. Surely the BBC has to at some point as well?

    It’s kinda funny this because the only people really obsessed with the whiteness of the skin colour of mixed race kids are Asian people, they really want the skin colour to be really white.

    Was also my experience when I sired mixed race kids.
    Well there’s this strange contradiction in white skinned people of wanting to look healthy and tanned, despite decades of medical warnings about skin cancer and premature ageing.

    It’s still a source of shame, when really it oughtn’t to be, realising the pallid pastiness of oneself and one’s children on holiday next to the healthy poreless skin, athletic physique and golden blond hair of the Swedish and Dutch kids.
    Still amuses me that one of Tommy Robinson’s jobs was to turn white people brown.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,504

    The key figure is the 72% who support closer ties with the EU. Rejoining the Single Market won't be in Labour's manifesto, obviously, so Starmer won't touch that - in his first term at least. But what he and Reeves will do is take rapid steps to please the 72% who want closer ties with the EU. That may herald a more significant change for Starmer's second term, if he gets that far.

    Whatever is decided in the longer term, it will be via a manifesto rather than a referendum - no sane politician would touch another EU referendum with a bargepole.

    What sort of closer ties are we thinking about -except unicorns or rejoin - unless they are being in the SM via EFTA/EEA or a Swiss deal? For those outside the SM our deal is pretty close.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,357
    TimS said:

    CatMan said:

    I see The Guardian has named the royals mentioned in the Dutch translation of the book. Surely the BBC has to at some point as well?

    It’s kinda funny this because the only people really obsessed with the whiteness of the skin colour of mixed race kids are Asian people, they really want the skin colour to be really white.

    Was also my experience when I sired mixed race kids.
    Well there’s this strange contradiction in white skinned people of wanting to look healthy and tanned, despite decades of medical warnings about skin cancer and premature ageing.

    It’s still a source of shame, when really it oughtn’t to be, realising the pallid pastiness of oneself and one’s children on holiday next to the healthy poreless skin, athletic physique and golden blond hair of the Swedish and Dutch kids.
    It is by no means certain that the dangers of sun exposure are more acute than the dangers of vitamin D deficiency.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    theakes said:

    Apparently Wilders having immense problems getting other parties to join him in a coalition. Any bets on him being leader of the opposition against a Left, Centre, Centre Right coalition government..

    If only they’d had FPTP, that would have shut the bouffanted populist out.

    Oh.


    I'm not sure you can just apply the voting percentages to a different voting system. They wouldn't have as many political parties under a FPTP system.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,161
    Labour voters are a touch less Brexity than LibDems then. Nice. I like that.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,585
    theakes said:

    Apparently Wilders having immense problems getting other parties to join him in a coalition. Any bets on him being leader of the opposition against a Left, Centre, Centre Right coalition government..

    PVV (37 seats) wants a right-wing coalition with the VVD (24 seats), NSC (20) and BBB (7), which would give 88 seats in the 150-seat legislature. The VVD have said no to coalition, but have said they'd consider a confidence and supply-like arrangement, and those two parties alone would get you to 61 seats, only 15 short of a majority. BBB are up for a coalition with PVV, so we're at 69. However, the NSC have said no because they say some of the PVV's (anti-Muslim) proposals are clearly against the constitution (which guarantees freedom of religion) and the PVV won't say those are off the table.

    There are various smaller parties on the right with 12 seats in total, so PVV+BBB+smaller with VVD support might work.

    If you take the second to fifth best performing parties, GL-PvdA, VVD, NSC and D66, you would have enough for a majority grand coalition (79).
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,447

    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    With so much sadness* and death, it's time to fire up the most perfect movie soundtrack of all time.

    Trainspotting. 14 perfect songs.

    Embrace it people.

    (Bizarrely, it' not available on Spotify. So here's a playlist someone created on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPAfi7VbU4g&list=PLkdH33fATc7ugUi9E3Y7rXGNQlBp9E5RG&ab_channel=BaseAllMighty)

    * Not Henry Kissinger, obviously

    Best movie soundtrack of all time - at least for those of us who were 18 in 1996.
    Wasn't bad for those of us who were 21!
    Those of us who were 22, on the other hand, found it far too difficult to comprehend.
    I was 23. A younger friend was really raving about wanting to watch it, but I just thought: "Why would I want to sit in the cinema watching the sad antics of a load of druggies? I lived in London for five years..."
    Wait. You still haven't seen it?
    Actually, I haven't. Not particularly interested in it; saw enough of that sort of world in London. And, to think of it, before.

    There was a drug problem even in a tiny town like provincial Uttoxeter, in the late 1980s, at least.

    I've seen loads of clips, and I daresay it's well-acted and well-written, but it's just not my cup of tea. Or syringe of heroin.

    Perhaps I missed out on something. But there are certain types of films I just don't like. Courtroom dramas bore me (sorry, all PB's lawyers). Mafia films ditto. Though to be fair, there are exceptions in each category.
    I'd think of PB circa 2000 as being more Layer Cake than Trainspotting.

    Trainspotting had too much running.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,585

    I think rejoining the single market, either bilaterally or via the EEA, needs some sort of referendum in support. Maybe just an indicative one, but having voted OUT, the public need the opportunity to vote (to some extent) IN.

    But if Keir is looking for measures to deliver growth, this is an obvious one, and looks to have quite widespread support now.

    Maybe, but I note that the Leave campaign said we wouldn't be leaving the single market, so they can hardly complain if we re-join it.
  • Options
    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    With so much sadness* and death, it's time to fire up the most perfect movie soundtrack of all time.

    Trainspotting. 14 perfect songs.

    Embrace it people.

    (Bizarrely, it' not available on Spotify. So here's a playlist someone created on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPAfi7VbU4g&list=PLkdH33fATc7ugUi9E3Y7rXGNQlBp9E5RG&ab_channel=BaseAllMighty)

    * Not Henry Kissinger, obviously

    Best movie soundtrack of all time - at least for those of us who were 18 in 1996.
    Wasn't bad for those of us who were 21!
    Those of us who were 22, on the other hand, found it far too difficult to comprehend.
    I was 23. A younger friend was really raving about wanting to watch it, but I just thought: "Why would I want to sit in the cinema watching the sad antics of a load of druggies? I lived in London for five years..."
    Wait. You still haven't seen it?
    Actually, I haven't. Not particularly interested in it; saw enough of that sort of world in London. And, to think of it, before.

    There was a drug problem even in a tiny town like provincial Uttoxeter, in the late 1980s, at least.

    I've seen loads of clips, and I daresay it's well-acted and well-written, but it's just not my cup of tea. Or syringe of heroin.

    Perhaps I missed out on something. But there are certain types of films I just don't like. Courtroom dramas bore me (sorry, all PB's lawyers). Mafia films ditto. Though to be fair, there are exceptions in each category.
    I'd think of PB circa 2000 as being more Layer Cake than Trainspotting.

    Trainspotting had too much running.
    Trainspotting was the film that convinced me to never try drugs.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,358
    edited November 2023
    RobD said:

    theakes said:

    Apparently Wilders having immense problems getting other parties to join him in a coalition. Any bets on him being leader of the opposition against a Left, Centre, Centre Right coalition government..

    If only they’d had FPTP, that would have shut the bouffanted populist out.

    Oh.


    I'm not sure you can just apply the voting percentages to a different voting system. They wouldn't have as many political parties under a FPTP system.
    Indeed.

    I feel the need to do a thread on voting systems to educate PBers.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052

    I think rejoining the single market, either bilaterally or via the EEA, needs some sort of referendum in support. Maybe just an indicative one, but having voted OUT, the public need the opportunity to vote (to some extent) IN.

    But if Keir is looking for measures to deliver growth, this is an obvious one, and looks to have quite widespread support now.

    Maybe, but I note that the Leave campaign said we wouldn't be leaving the single market, so they can hardly complain if we re-join it.
    They didn't say that during the referendum campaign. Everyone from Michael Gove to David Cameron to Wolfgang Schäuble was clear that a vote to Leave meant leaving the single market.
  • Options
    Sad to say, considering it was 7 years ago, but this thread header and the associated polling simply repeats the thread header I posted on here the day after the Brexit vote.

    Immediately before the vote, yougov polling showed that a substantial minority of Leave voters (enough to make it a majority of the overall poll) would favour joining EFTA and the EEA and so retaining freedom of movement. It should have been taken seriously as an option at the time rather than rattling on about the 'purity' of Brexit.

    I lay the blame for this almost entirely at the feet of the succession of post Brexit governing parties with a small but significant dollop of blame being thrownvat those Remainer MPs who were only interested in overturning the vote.

    I still maintain that this is where we will eventually land but we will have wasted years to get there.
  • Options

    Nigelb said:

    So the poll essentially says that Brexit isn't done, and the majority think that the way to get it done ... is to undo it ?

    Yup.
    Nope.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,256
    edited November 2023
    algarkirk said:

    The key figure is the 72% who support closer ties with the EU. Rejoining the Single Market won't be in Labour's manifesto, obviously, so Starmer won't touch that - in his first term at least. But what he and Reeves will do is take rapid steps to please the 72% who want closer ties with the EU. That may herald a more significant change for Starmer's second term, if he gets that far.

    Whatever is decided in the longer term, it will be via a manifesto rather than a referendum - no sane politician would touch another EU referendum with a bargepole.

    What sort of closer ties are we thinking about -except unicorns or rejoin - unless they are being in the SM via EFTA/EEA or a Swiss deal? For those outside the SM our deal is pretty close.
    Macron's European Political Community has been suggested as a sensible compromise

    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/the-european-political-community/
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052

    Sad to say, considering it was 7 years ago, but this thread header and the associated polling simply repeats the thread header I posted on here the day after the Brexit vote.

    Immediately before the vote, yougov polling showed that a substantial minority of Leave voters (enough to make it a majority of the overall poll) would favour joining EFTA and the EEA and so retaining freedom of movement. It should have been taken seriously as an option at the time rather than rattling on about the 'purity' of Brexit.

    I lay the blame for this almost entirely at the feet of the succession of post Brexit governing parties with a small but significant dollop of blame being thrownvat those Remainer MPs who were only interested in overturning the vote.

    I still maintain that this is where we will eventually land but we will have wasted years to get there.

    Given what's happened with the immigration figures since the referendum, it would be interesting to consider the counter-factual where Theresa May had gone for a soft Brexit but seriously reduced non-EU immigration in response to the vote. She might still be PM.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,585

    I think rejoining the single market, either bilaterally or via the EEA, needs some sort of referendum in support. Maybe just an indicative one, but having voted OUT, the public need the opportunity to vote (to some extent) IN.

    But if Keir is looking for measures to deliver growth, this is an obvious one, and looks to have quite widespread support now.

    Maybe, but I note that the Leave campaign said we wouldn't be leaving the single market, so they can hardly complain if we re-join it.
    They didn't say that during the referendum campaign. Everyone from Michael Gove to David Cameron to Wolfgang Schäuble was clear that a vote to Leave meant leaving the single market.
    OK, forgive me, they said we would have access to the Single Market. http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_newdeal.html says:

    "Third, we will have a new UK-EU trading relationship. There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it. [...]

    "The EU’s supporters say ‘we must have access to the Single Market’. Britain will have access to the Single Market after we vote leave."

    If Starmer delivers entry to a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border, phrasing that seems to define the EEA to me, then presumably Leavers will be OK with that?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,466
    .

    TimS said:

    CatMan said:

    I see The Guardian has named the royals mentioned in the Dutch translation of the book. Surely the BBC has to at some point as well?

    It’s kinda funny this because the only people really obsessed with the whiteness of the skin colour of mixed race kids are Asian people, they really want the skin colour to be really white.

    Was also my experience when I sired mixed race kids.
    Well there’s this strange contradiction in white skinned people of wanting to look healthy and tanned, despite decades of medical warnings about skin cancer and premature ageing.

    It’s still a source of shame, when really it oughtn’t to be, realising the pallid pastiness of oneself and one’s children on holiday next to the healthy poreless skin, athletic physique and golden blond hair of the Swedish and Dutch kids.
    It is by no means certain that the dangers of sun exposure are more acute than the dangers of vitamin D deficiency.
    There's a happy medium, I think (which will vary according to skin type). You're certainly correct that a vitamin D deficiency is potentially quite harmful to health.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,553
    I’m feeling closer to the EU today, physically at least. A morning meeting tradesmen and architects on site and struggling to understand them as they speak at 100 miles an hour interspersed every few sentences with “du coup” and “tac”.

    Then an afternoon discovering the deepest reaches of the civil code and trying to explain why English common law is better at the Notaire’s office in Cluny, then a little meandering drive into Beaujolais.




    It’s chilly and rather misty here but very atmospheric. And I have the fire going back at the cottage, tucking into a cheapish crémant de bourgogne I’ve laced with some oxidised ratafia leftover from summer to make it taste like an aged Demi-sec.



    I’d kind of made my peace with Brexit. I’m in two minds about opening up rejoin. Not sure I can put myself through the emotional rollercoaster. The cursory nature of the passport stamp last night in Saint Exupery and the recent legislation in the French senate for British home owners told me not to worry, they have our backs.

    I do think that easing back into the single market makes eminent sense. And given recent migration figures is anyone really going to argue that re-implementing free
    movement is going to put in question our
    massively reduced post-Brexit numbers? Starmer won’t dare do anything so it’s time for the Lib Dems to pick up the baton and put it in the manifesto.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052

    I think rejoining the single market, either bilaterally or via the EEA, needs some sort of referendum in support. Maybe just an indicative one, but having voted OUT, the public need the opportunity to vote (to some extent) IN.

    But if Keir is looking for measures to deliver growth, this is an obvious one, and looks to have quite widespread support now.

    Maybe, but I note that the Leave campaign said we wouldn't be leaving the single market, so they can hardly complain if we re-join it.
    They didn't say that during the referendum campaign. Everyone from Michael Gove to David Cameron to Wolfgang Schäuble was clear that a vote to Leave meant leaving the single market.
    OK, forgive me, they said we would have access to the Single Market. http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_newdeal.html says:

    "Third, we will have a new UK-EU trading relationship. There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it. [...]

    "The EU’s supporters say ‘we must have access to the Single Market’. Britain will have access to the Single Market after we vote leave."

    If Starmer delivers entry to a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border, phrasing that seems to define the EEA to me, then presumably Leavers will be OK with that?
    We have tariff and quota-free access to the single market now. By objective global standards it's a free trade zone.

    By way of comparison, the USA and Mexico are part of a free trade zone. Is trade between the US and Mexico more open than between the UK and EU post-Brexit?
  • Options
    @Jim_Miller

    Posted in error on previous thread.....

    Maybe I can answer for Ms Free?

    One reason why I believe this scandal has not caught the public's imagination is that it is not Party Political in the normal and general sense of the phrase. It originates back in the days of Blair/Harman, and the perfectly reasonable desire to see the PO brought up to date, although as with much that TB initiated, the follow-through was sadly lacking.

    The LDs cop it too. Paula Vennells was appointed by Vince Cable. Jo Swinson was the Minister responsible for the PO during a critical period and seems to have adopted the type of hands off approach that was characteristic of succeeding Governments right the way through to Boris Johnson's. (He must though be credited with authorising the Public Inquiry, whatever else one may say about him.) So you see, they've all had their mucky paws on it, or rather, they have all failed to take the kind of interest that a good owner should, especially once there are signs (and there were plenty) that something, somewhere, is going terribly wrong.

    Nor can we expect Starmer to nail his colors to the mast. It is obvious that the current Government is in no hurry to see the Inquiry draw its conclusions. It is now very likely that the final report will be published after the GE. Any reasonable financial settlement is going to be very expensive indeed. Starmer will not want to be too gung-ho about justice for the Subpostmasters because it is very likely his mob that will have to write the cheques.

    So there are no winners here in any political Party. Pehaps if there were, we would be hearing a damn sight more about it. And I see no betting angle too, except that the scandal tends to add a little to the miasma of doom and gloom hanging over the Tory Party as it awaits its fate.

    Sitting Governments generally take the blame for everything, whatever the realities, as Labour and Starmer will no doubt discover from about next November.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859

    CatMan said:

    I see The Guardian has named the royals mentioned in the Dutch translation of the book. Surely the BBC has to at some point as well?

    It’s kinda funny this because the only people really obsessed with the whiteness of the skin colour of mixed race kids are Asian people, they really want the skin colour to be really white.

    Was also my experience when I sired mixed race kids.
    Chris Rock called this one right.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=Bq3hJtYCNbw
  • Options
    nico679nico679 Posts: 4,772
    Perhaps they could sell re-join as a way of reducing immigration.

    Quite funny when you think about the original leave campaign !
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,553
    Nigelb said:

    .

    TimS said:

    CatMan said:

    I see The Guardian has named the royals mentioned in the Dutch translation of the book. Surely the BBC has to at some point as well?

    It’s kinda funny this because the only people really obsessed with the whiteness of the skin colour of mixed race kids are Asian people, they really want the skin colour to be really white.

    Was also my experience when I sired mixed race kids.
    Well there’s this strange contradiction in white skinned people of wanting to look healthy and tanned, despite decades of medical warnings about skin cancer and premature ageing.

    It’s still a source of shame, when really it oughtn’t to be, realising the pallid pastiness of oneself and one’s children on holiday next to the healthy poreless skin, athletic physique and golden blond hair of the Swedish and Dutch kids.
    It is by no means certain that the dangers of sun exposure are more acute than the dangers of vitamin D deficiency.
    There's a happy medium, I think (which will vary according to skin type). You're certainly correct that a vitamin D deficiency is potentially quite harmful to health.
    I take vitamin D tablets from time to time but am generally a bit cavalier with sun exposure, which is not a good idea given I’m generously dotted with moles. The worst thing about melanoma risk is the fact you could have got burnt as a child and that’s enough, it’s too late.
  • Options

    Sad to say, considering it was 7 years ago, but this thread header and the associated polling simply repeats the thread header I posted on here the day after the Brexit vote.

    Immediately before the vote, yougov polling showed that a substantial minority of Leave voters (enough to make it a majority of the overall poll) would favour joining EFTA and the EEA and so retaining freedom of movement. It should have been taken seriously as an option at the time rather than rattling on about the 'purity' of Brexit.

    I lay the blame for this almost entirely at the feet of the succession of post Brexit governing parties with a small but significant dollop of blame being thrownvat those Remainer MPs who were only interested in overturning the vote.

    I still maintain that this is where we will eventually land but we will have wasted years to get there.

    Maybe there are some small grounds for optimism, Richard.

    One now hears some small acknowledgement from the EU side that maybe they didn't handle things all that well either. Maybe that is a sign that a more common sense approach that recognises the concerns of all parties will be tried? It could do little harm>
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,993

    CatMan said:

    I see The Guardian has named the royals mentioned in the Dutch translation of the book. Surely the BBC has to at some point as well?

    It’s kinda funny this because the only people really obsessed with the whiteness of the skin colour of mixed race kids are Asian people, they really want the skin colour to be really white.

    Was also my experience when I sired mixed race kids.
    Mine, too; although in my case it was half-Thai grandchildren.
    Everyone wants to be white. It’s a human universal dating back thousands of years. “Fairness” in women is prized in Sumerian texts
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,466
    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    TimS said:

    CatMan said:

    I see The Guardian has named the royals mentioned in the Dutch translation of the book. Surely the BBC has to at some point as well?

    It’s kinda funny this because the only people really obsessed with the whiteness of the skin colour of mixed race kids are Asian people, they really want the skin colour to be really white.

    Was also my experience when I sired mixed race kids.
    Well there’s this strange contradiction in white skinned people of wanting to look healthy and tanned, despite decades of medical warnings about skin cancer and premature ageing.

    It’s still a source of shame, when really it oughtn’t to be, realising the pallid pastiness of oneself and one’s children on holiday next to the healthy poreless skin, athletic physique and golden blond hair of the Swedish and Dutch kids.
    It is by no means certain that the dangers of sun exposure are more acute than the dangers of vitamin D deficiency.
    There's a happy medium, I think (which will vary according to skin type). You're certainly correct that a vitamin D deficiency is potentially quite harmful to health.
    I take vitamin D tablets from time to time but am generally a bit cavalier with sun exposure, which is not a good idea given I’m generously dotted with moles. The worst thing about melanoma risk is the fact you could have got burnt as a child and that’s enough, it’s too late.
    There's very mixed evidence on Vit D supplementation (you're probably better off eating mackerel or sardines) - whereas sun exposure (skin damage aside) is undoubtedly beneficial.
  • Options
    SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 6,257
    edited November 2023

    I think rejoining the single market, either bilaterally or via the EEA, needs some sort of referendum in support. Maybe just an indicative one, but having voted OUT, the public need the opportunity to vote (to some extent) IN.

    But if Keir is looking for measures to deliver growth, this is an obvious one, and looks to have quite widespread support now.

    Maybe, but I note that the Leave campaign said we wouldn't be leaving the single market, so they can hardly complain if we re-join it.
    They didn't say that during the referendum campaign. Everyone from Michael Gove to David Cameron to Wolfgang Schäuble was clear that a vote to Leave meant leaving the single market.
    “Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market.” Daniel Hannan.

    "Only a madman would actually leave the market” Owen Paterson.

    It is true that many campaigners on both sides were clear enough that Leave meant leaving the single market. But many were inconsistent and some, such as Michael Gove whom you mention, tried to adopt cake-ist, pie-in-the-sky positions that were utterly unachievable:

    "We should be outside the single market. We should have access to the single market, but we should not be governed by the rules that the European Court of Justice imposes on us, which cost business and restrict freedom." Michael Gove

    "EU citizens living in this country will have their rights fully protected, and the same goes for British citizens living in the EU. British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down.” Boris Johnson.

  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,115
    No real surprise that - though the Brexiteers played on general fears of migration - those fears predominantly related to migrants from outside Europe, not from countries within the EU.

    As for whether Brexit has worked, probably the only person it really worked for was Boris Johnson, for just a couple of years.

    Any argument that might have been made for Brexit in terms of democratic accountability has surely been trashed by the contempt Tory politicians have shown for that kind of thing over the last few years.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,585

    I think rejoining the single market, either bilaterally or via the EEA, needs some sort of referendum in support. Maybe just an indicative one, but having voted OUT, the public need the opportunity to vote (to some extent) IN.

    But if Keir is looking for measures to deliver growth, this is an obvious one, and looks to have quite widespread support now.

    Maybe, but I note that the Leave campaign said we wouldn't be leaving the single market, so they can hardly complain if we re-join it.
    They didn't say that during the referendum campaign. Everyone from Michael Gove to David Cameron to Wolfgang Schäuble was clear that a vote to Leave meant leaving the single market.
    OK, forgive me, they said we would have access to the Single Market. http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_newdeal.html says:

    "Third, we will have a new UK-EU trading relationship. There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it. [...]

    "The EU’s supporters say ‘we must have access to the Single Market’. Britain will have access to the Single Market after we vote leave."

    If Starmer delivers entry to a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border, phrasing that seems to define the EEA to me, then presumably Leavers will be OK with that?
    We have tariff and quota-free access to the single market now. By objective global standards it's a free trade zone.

    By way of comparison, the USA and Mexico are part of a free trade zone. Is trade between the US and Mexico more open than between the UK and EU post-Brexit?
    When there is talk about free trade from Iceland to the borders of Russia, I presumed they were referring to the degree of free trade seen in that area, i.e. the EEA, before the referendum. We don’t even have that now between GB and NI!
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052

    I think rejoining the single market, either bilaterally or via the EEA, needs some sort of referendum in support. Maybe just an indicative one, but having voted OUT, the public need the opportunity to vote (to some extent) IN.

    But if Keir is looking for measures to deliver growth, this is an obvious one, and looks to have quite widespread support now.

    Maybe, but I note that the Leave campaign said we wouldn't be leaving the single market, so they can hardly complain if we re-join it.
    They didn't say that during the referendum campaign. Everyone from Michael Gove to David Cameron to Wolfgang Schäuble was clear that a vote to Leave meant leaving the single market.
    “Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market.” Daniel Hannan.

    "Only a madman would actually leave the market” Owen Paterson.

    "EU citizens living in this country will have their rights fully protected, and the same goes for British citizens living in the EU. British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down.” Boris Johnson.

    It is true that many campaigners on both sides were clear enough that Leave meant leaving the single market. But many were inconsistent and some, such as Michael Gove whom you mention, tried to adopt cake-ist, pie-in-the-sky positions that were utterly unachievable:

    "We should be outside the single market. We should have access to the single market, but we should not be governed by the rules that the European Court of Justice imposes on us, which cost business and restrict freedom." Michael Gove

    The Hannan interview was from 2015 and the quote is a misrepresentation. He was saying that nobody in Brussels was talking about kicking us out of the single market.

    The Paterson quote is from 2014.

    The Johnson quote was after the referendum when he triangulating to win the leadership. He lost to Theresa May.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,635

    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    With so much sadness* and death, it's time to fire up the most perfect movie soundtrack of all time.

    Trainspotting. 14 perfect songs.

    Embrace it people.

    (Bizarrely, it' not available on Spotify. So here's a playlist someone created on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPAfi7VbU4g&list=PLkdH33fATc7ugUi9E3Y7rXGNQlBp9E5RG&ab_channel=BaseAllMighty)

    * Not Henry Kissinger, obviously

    Best movie soundtrack of all time - at least for those of us who were 18 in 1996.
    Wasn't bad for those of us who were 21!
    Those of us who were 22, on the other hand, found it far too difficult to comprehend.
    I was 23. A younger friend was really raving about wanting to watch it, but I just thought: "Why would I want to sit in the cinema watching the sad antics of a load of druggies? I lived in London for five years..."
    Wait. You still haven't seen it?
    Actually, I haven't. Not particularly interested in it; saw enough of that sort of world in London. And, to think of it, before.

    There was a drug problem even in a tiny town like provincial Uttoxeter, in the late 1980s, at least.

    I've seen loads of clips, and I daresay it's well-acted and well-written, but it's just not my cup of tea. Or syringe of heroin.

    Perhaps I missed out on something. But there are certain types of films I just don't like. Courtroom dramas bore me (sorry, all PB's lawyers). Mafia films ditto. Though to be fair, there are exceptions in each category.
    I'd think of PB circa 2000 as being more Layer Cake than Trainspotting.

    Trainspotting had too much running.
    Trainspotting was the film that convinced me to never try drugs.
    Hah! Came too late for me. I was already on Belhaven 70/-, Wadworths 6X, etc. etc. according to location.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,635
    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    TimS said:

    CatMan said:

    I see The Guardian has named the royals mentioned in the Dutch translation of the book. Surely the BBC has to at some point as well?

    It’s kinda funny this because the only people really obsessed with the whiteness of the skin colour of mixed race kids are Asian people, they really want the skin colour to be really white.

    Was also my experience when I sired mixed race kids.
    Well there’s this strange contradiction in white skinned people of wanting to look healthy and tanned, despite decades of medical warnings about skin cancer and premature ageing.

    It’s still a source of shame, when really it oughtn’t to be, realising the pallid pastiness of oneself and one’s children on holiday next to the healthy poreless skin, athletic physique and golden blond hair of the Swedish and Dutch kids.
    It is by no means certain that the dangers of sun exposure are more acute than the dangers of vitamin D deficiency.
    There's a happy medium, I think (which will vary according to skin type). You're certainly correct that a vitamin D deficiency is potentially quite harmful to health.
    I take vitamin D tablets from time to time but am generally a bit cavalier with sun exposure, which is not a good idea given I’m generously dotted with moles. The worst thing about melanoma risk is the fact you could have got burnt as a child and that’s enough, it’s too late.
    Indeed. Very fair skinned myself. Every few years I have been sent to the specialist for a check of any nasty looking moles, and I get an inspection of the rest of me thrown in on request ( so I have no idea if it is normal anyway!).
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,938

    I think rejoining the single market, either bilaterally or via the EEA, needs some sort of referendum in support. Maybe just an indicative one, but having voted OUT, the public need the opportunity to vote (to some extent) IN.

    But if Keir is looking for measures to deliver growth, this is an obvious one, and looks to have quite widespread support now.

    Maybe, but I note that the Leave campaign said we wouldn't be leaving the single market, so they can hardly complain if we re-join it.
    They didn't say that during the referendum campaign. Everyone from Michael Gove to David Cameron to Wolfgang Schäuble was clear that a vote to Leave meant leaving the single market.
    “Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market.” Daniel Hannan.

    "Only a madman would actually leave the market” Owen Paterson.

    "EU citizens living in this country will have their rights fully protected, and the same goes for British citizens living in the EU. British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down.” Boris Johnson.

    It is true that many campaigners on both sides were clear enough that Leave meant leaving the single market. But many were inconsistent and some, such as Michael Gove whom you mention, tried to adopt cake-ist, pie-in-the-sky positions that were utterly unachievable:

    "We should be outside the single market. We should have access to the single market, but we should not be governed by the rules that the European Court of Justice imposes on us, which cost business and restrict freedom." Michael Gove

    The Hannan interview was from 2015 and the quote is a misrepresentation. He was saying that nobody in Brussels was talking about kicking us out of the single market.

    The Paterson quote is from 2014.

    The Johnson quote was after the referendum when he triangulating to win the leadership. He lost to Theresa May.
    (Small point of order. You make it sound like 2015 and 2014 were in the distant past. They were immediately prior to the referendum.)
This discussion has been closed.