Today reconfirmed why the Tories were right to ditch Boris Johnson – politicalbetting.com
Shocking evidence heard at the #CovidInquiry today, according to Patrick Vallance diaries from 2020, Boris Johnson believed old people should "accept their fate" and get Covid @theipaperhttps://t.co/LPPepyPBHU
I think many of us were pretty clear that this was Johnson's view. However, the total lack of professionalism is quite something to behold - not least from those still preening themselves as 'better than the rest'.
Presumably the then Chancellor knew about all of this and approved. Otherwise he would have resigned at the time or would at the very least have spoken up later on. Now what was his name again...
Did I see some rare appreciation from BJO for Starmer's speech today?
You know, all I needed from,Corbyn back in the day for his party splitting foibles was a credible explanation, in a speech for example, of his years as a "peace activist" and how he ended up.in the situations he had. I was more than willing to give him a hearing. But instead we got passive resistance and Occam's razor had to apply.
This doesn’t really annoy me - very similar things have been said on PB. I think its right that there are no 'unsayable' things in such meetings. I also tend to doubt the accuracy of minutes/notes. We already know where Vallance stood on lockdown - clearly he was a hawk. We don't know why (a cynic could argue he liked the power), but it probably coloured his view.
As someone has already commented, what we should be doing with the enquiry is establishing whether we took the best approach to Covid in the round, and what should the policy be if similar circumstances arise again. It seems to be more an airing of tittle tattle, which is a pity.
I still don't buy the 'Britain Trump' attempted comparisons. At the end of the day Boris is a good bullshitter, a good salesman, and has some areas where is makes the right call, but he is also very much a figure of the establishment mainstream (just with Brexit part of a fight within the mainstream party). Wild hair and bloviating remarks don't turn him into a dangerous radical, even if reports of stuff like this would hardly inspire confidence.
Today my adventures consisted of having to go to Golders Green. On the tube (ugh - Boris bikes don't reach that far north).
Some observations.
1. It was much hotter on the Northern Line than likely any day this year on Brighton beach;
2. I saw one of those The Dyke Project (for that is it) posters. "It's hard being gay in Gaza but I kissed lots of boys and now the nasty Israelis are bombing us" vibe. The poster said also no one is free until everyone is free and exhorted the UK to"stop funding Israel and the Israeli military". A very global gay concern I'm sure;
3. In Golders Green itself there were plenty of policemen and private security types around; and
4. I saw a group of presumably Jewish primary school age children trick or treating along the main road. With a police escort.
This doesn’t really annoy me - very similar things have been said on PB. I think its right that there are no 'unsayable' things in such meetings. I also tend to doubt the accuracy of minutes/notes. We already know where Vallance stood on lockdown - clearly he was a hawk. We don't know why (a cynic could argue he liked the power), but it probably coloured his view.
As someone has already commented, what we should be doing with the enquiry is establishing whether we took the best approach to Covid in the round, and what should the policy be if similar circumstances arise again. It seems to be more an airing of tittle tattle, which is a pity.
It's no great sweat off the nose of the body politic if one of us jumps up and down and demands "give your granny covid to help out" - any more than someone espousing Trussonomics. It's very different when the PM and CotE do that.
Sorry old bean, constantly telling you to Shut the Fuck Up on the last thread was not my finest moment. Two LARGE gin and tonics and a dreamlike twilight at The Temple of Concord, Agrigento, got me over excited. Yes, I stand by my statement, you REALLY need to go the Tas Tepeler to understand how revolutionary they are (and I’ve been to pre-ceramic sites all over the Mid East) but phrasing it as YOU ARE A MORON, MOFO, SO STFU was less then elegant
I make no such apology to @bondegezou and I hope he is soon replaced by AI. GPT2 should easily suffice, indeed I already wonder if he is some kind of low-grade bot
Imagine the most tense and difficult period of your working life. Now imagine every text, email and side comment you made at the time was later picked over in public. That’s what this is.
Give these people a bit of a break for things said in the heat of the moment, even Boris.
Many on the libertarian right though would agree with Johnson, even if most pensioners wouldn't
This is fair.
What Johnson loses in terms of the grey vote, could well be balanced by what he gains in terms of the type of cold eyed psychos who think Ayn Rand was a hopeless bleeding heart, and want to kill grandma immediately.
Yes, total sympathy with Boris here. He was saying what everyone was saying. The idea these concepts should not be broached- by the PM - is insane. No doubt Churchill had pretty robust and ugly arguments during WW2, about the deaths of various civilians, He was simply lucky he didn’t have them recorded on WhatsApp
Many on the libertarian right though would agree with Johnson, even if most pensioners wouldn't
This is fair.
What Johnson loses in terms of the grey vote, could well be balanced the what he gains in terms of the type of cold eyed psychos who think Ayn Rand was a hopeless bleeding heart, and want to kill gran.
I still don't buy the 'Britain Trump' attempted comparisons. At the end of the day Boris is a good bullshitter, a good salesman, and has some areas where is makes the right call, but he is also very much a figure of the establishment mainstream (just with Brexit part of a fight within the mainstream party). Wild hair and bloviating remarks don't turn him into a dangerous radical, even if reports of stuff like this would hardly inspire confidence.
In fairness, I see this as typical Boris say-the-unsayable japery, designed to elicit schoolboy giggles of appreciation from the assembled acolytes. If not Boris is a complete monster.
Today my adventures consisted of having to go to Golders Green. On the tube (ugh - Boris bikes don't reach that far north).
Some observations.
1. It was much hotter on the Northern Line than likely any day this year on Brighton beach;
2. I saw one of those The Dyke Project (for that is it) posters. "It's hard being gay in Gaza but I kissed lots of boys and now the nasty Israelis are bombing us" vibe. The poster said also no one is free until everyone is free and exhorted the UK to"stop funding Israel and the Israeli military". A very global gay concern I'm sure;
3. In Golders Green itself there were plenty of policemen and private security types around; and
4. I saw a group of presumably Jewish primary school age children trick or treating along the main road. With a police escort.
1. I hope you were wearing more than just your speedos on the Northern Line.
4. Primary school children should never need a police escort to be children. Intolerance needs to be challenged.
Yes, total sympathy with Boris here. He was saying what everyone was saying. The idea these concepts should not be broached- by the PM - is insane. No doubt Churchill had pretty robust and ugly arguments during WW2, about the deaths of various civilians, He was simply lucky he didn’t have them recorded on WhatsApp
Traditionally, when a British government decides that keeping some people alive will cost too much they just outsource the dirty work to NICE. Johnson’s mistake was not sending the decision across to a quango.
Has everyone forgotten that in the initial stages of the pandemic, the expert view from the likes of the WHO was that travel restrictions were stigmatising and counter-productive because of the damage to the economy?
Yes, total sympathy with Boris here. He was saying what everyone was saying. The idea these concepts should not be broached- by the PM - is insane. No doubt Churchill had pretty robust and ugly arguments during WW2, about the deaths of various civilians, He was simply lucky he didn’t have them recorded on WhatsApp
I agree. It’s this Inquiry culture, following Iraq, that drove all decision making on to WhatsApp (and presumably now has made it all verbal). People in the midst of making impossible decisions need a bit of latitude to make them, and have the real detail secret for years, so that future historians at least have the detail.
Yes, total sympathy with Boris here. He was saying what everyone was saying. The idea these concepts should not be broached- by the PM - is insane. No doubt Churchill had pretty robust and ugly arguments during WW2, about the deaths of various civilians, He was simply lucky he didn’t have them recorded on WhatsApp
Traditionally, when a British government decides that keeping some people alive will cost too much they just outsource the dirty work to NICE. Johnson’s mistake was not sending the decision across to a quango.
Yup, sanitise it by expressing it all in terms of Qalys
Has everyone forgotten that in the initial stages of the pandemic, the expert view from the likes of the WHO was that travel restrictions were stigmatising and counter-productive because of the damage to the economy?
Once covid was well seeded in a country, travel restrictions probably did little to slow transmission, given you are as likely to export the infected as to import them.
According to this BBC measure, you're more privileged compared to others. Does this match your experience?
Me? privileged?
I am the grandson of humble immigrants to this country.
12/20, but I did say no to whether I felt able to express my religion at work and my sexuality - for the first I don't have a religion to express and for the second I don't think expressing one's sexuality is smiled upon I guess I also scored down for saying yes to whether I'd ever been the only person of my ethnic group in a meeting at work (being white, I don't think that actually represents a lack of privilege)
Has everyone forgotten that in the initial stages of the pandemic, the expert view from the likes of the WHO was that travel restrictions were stigmatising and counter-productive because of the damage to the economy?
Yeah but Boris was saying old people need to fuck off and die in Dec 2020 (if you belive Vallance)
What's the link for this privilege test...as a humble son from mining families from Up Norrfff and first to go to uni, surely I am like well under privileged and should be getting the Tory interns to carry me?
According to this BBC measure, you're more privileged compared to others. Does this match your experience?
Me? privileged?
I am the grandson of humble immigrants to this country.
It only really touches on social class at the extreme bottom rung. Nothing about accent, nothing about school, nothing really that would separate me from an Etonian, yet there is a clear opportunity divide between the lower middle and the top.
What's the link for this privilege test...as a humble son from mining families from Up Norrfff and first to go to uni, surely I am like well under privileged and should be getting the Tory interns to carry me?
Has everyone forgotten that in the initial stages of the pandemic, the expert view from the likes of the WHO was that travel restrictions were stigmatising and counter-productive because of the damage to the economy?
Yeah but Boris was saying old people need to fuck off and die in Dec 2020 (if you belive Vallance)
Haven't we known for some time that he said "let the bodies pile high"?
Yes, total sympathy with Boris here. He was saying what everyone was saying. The idea these concepts should not be broached- by the PM - is insane. No doubt Churchill had pretty robust and ugly arguments during WW2, about the deaths of various civilians, He was simply lucky he didn’t have them recorded on WhatsApp
Traditionally, when a British government decides that keeping some people alive will cost too much they just outsource the dirty work to NICE. Johnson’s mistake was not sending the decision across to a quango.
Yup, sanitise it by expressing it all in terms of Qalys
Given NICE traditionally look at QALYs versus direct healthcare costs, lockdown would be win-win (most NICE-funded assessments don't look at wider societal costs/benefits, mostly because that's too hard)
What's the link for this privilege test...as a humble son from mining families from Up Norrfff and first to go to uni, surely I am like well under privileged and should be getting the Tory interns to carry me?
Has everyone forgotten that in the initial stages of the pandemic, the expert view from the likes of the WHO was that travel restrictions were stigmatising and counter-productive because of the damage to the economy?
Once covid was well seeded in a country, travel restrictions probably did little to slow transmission, given you are as likely to export the infected as to import them.
Only if you think probability for any binary choice is always 50-50.
If you have a lockdown to bring down the incidence of the virus in this country, then having people travel through crowded airports, on planes, or into other countries is making it far more likely that the virus will be imported than that it will be exported.
Not sealing the border defeats the entire purpose of having a lockdown.
My view is lockdowns were a mistake but even if you still say we should have had one, it was done wrong. Schools should be the last place to close and the first to reopen, the border should be the other way around.
Has everyone forgotten that in the initial stages of the pandemic, the expert view from the likes of the WHO was that travel restrictions were stigmatising and counter-productive because of the damage to the economy?
Yeah but Boris was saying old people need to fuck off and die in Dec 2020 (if you belive Vallance)
Not quite. He was posing a difficult question, expecting attempts to answer it to advance understanding about what to do. A bit like Socrates (not our much missed poster of that pseudonym)
Yes, total sympathy with Boris here. He was saying what everyone was saying. The idea these concepts should not be broached- by the PM - is insane. No doubt Churchill had pretty robust and ugly arguments during WW2, about the deaths of various civilians, He was simply lucky he didn’t have them recorded on WhatsApp
Traditionally, when a British government decides that keeping some people alive will cost too much they just outsource the dirty work to NICE. Johnson’s mistake was not sending the decision across to a quango.
Yup, sanitise it by expressing it all in terms of Qalys
Given NICE traditionally look at QALYs versus direct healthcare costs, lockdown would be win-win (most NICE-funded assessments don't look at wider societal costs/benefits, mostly because that's too hard)
According to this BBC measure, you're more privileged compared to others. Does this match your experience?
Me? privileged?
I am the grandson of humble immigrants to this country.
You are a male, privately and Cambridge educated lawyer and Remainer who votes LD, you couldn't get more un working class and privileged than that unless you were in the royal family!
According to this BBC measure, you're more privileged compared to others. Does this match your experience?
Me? privileged?
I am the grandson of humble immigrants to this country.
12/20, but I did say no to whether I felt able to express my religion at work and my sexuality - for the first I don't have a religion to express and for the second I don't think expressing one's sexuality is smiled upon I guess I also scored down for saying yes to whether I'd ever been the only person of my ethnic group in a meeting at work (being white, I don't think that actually represents a lack of privilege)
It's ridiculous they kept changing the position of the Yes and No so I pressed the wrong one several times.
Has everyone forgotten that in the initial stages of the pandemic, the expert view from the likes of the WHO was that travel restrictions were stigmatising and counter-productive because of the damage to the economy?
Once covid was well seeded in a country, travel restrictions probably did little to slow transmission, given you are as likely to export the infected as to import them.
Only if you think probability for any binary choice is always 50-50.
If you have a lockdown to bring down the incidence of the virus in this country, then having people travel through crowded airports, on planes, or into other countries is making it far more likely that the virus will be imported than that it will be exported.
Not sealing the border defeats the entire purpose of having a lockdown.
My view is lockdowns were a mistake but even if you still say we should have had one, it was done wrong. Schools should be the last place to close and the first to reopen, the border should be the other way around.
Sure, when you had actual lockdowns, and people weren't allowed out the house, then you are absolutely correct.
But the UK was locked down for, what, four months out of the 18 of covid, and there were severe travel restrictions throughout that period. (The US was worse, of course)
Yes, total sympathy with Boris here. He was saying what everyone was saying. The idea these concepts should not be broached- by the PM - is insane. No doubt Churchill had pretty robust and ugly arguments during WW2, about the deaths of various civilians, He was simply lucky he didn’t have them recorded on WhatsApp
Traditionally, when a British government decides that keeping some people alive will cost too much they just outsource the dirty work to NICE. Johnson’s mistake was not sending the decision across to a quango.
Yup, sanitise it by expressing it all in terms of Qalys
Given NICE traditionally look at QALYs versus direct healthcare costs, lockdown would be win-win (most NICE-funded assessments don't look at wider societal costs/benefits, mostly because that's too hard)
Ah yes. “It’s too hard to measure/fix, so just ignore that”.
Bringing triumphs of policy ever since a bloke failed to consider the wider implications of half inching some fruit from a tree.
Today my adventures consisted of having to go to Golders Green. On the tube (ugh - Boris bikes don't reach that far north).
Some observations.
1. It was much hotter on the Northern Line than likely any day this year on Brighton beach;
2. I saw one of those The Dyke Project (for that is it) posters. "It's hard being gay in Gaza but I kissed lots of boys and now the nasty Israelis are bombing us" vibe. The poster said also no one is free until everyone is free and exhorted the UK to"stop funding Israel and the Israeli military". A very global gay concern I'm sure;
3. In Golders Green itself there were plenty of policemen and private security types around; and
4. I saw a group of presumably Jewish primary school age children trick or treating along the main road. With a police escort.
1. I hope you were wearing more than just your speedos on the Northern Line.
4. Primary school children should never need a police escort to be children. Intolerance needs to be challenged.
I wish I had been. I was wearing too many clothes - straight off a Boris bike onto the tube at Kings Cross. Yuk.
Yes, total sympathy with Boris here. He was saying what everyone was saying. The idea these concepts should not be broached- by the PM - is insane. No doubt Churchill had pretty robust and ugly arguments during WW2, about the deaths of various civilians, He was simply lucky he didn’t have them recorded on WhatsApp
Traditionally, when a British government decides that keeping some people alive will cost too much they just outsource the dirty work to NICE. Johnson’s mistake was not sending the decision across to a quango.
Yup, sanitise it by expressing it all in terms of Qalys
Given NICE traditionally look at QALYs versus direct healthcare costs, lockdown would be win-win (most NICE-funded assessments don't look at wider societal costs/benefits, mostly because that's too hard)
Cost of furlough though.
Not a direct healthcare cost.
Most assessments wouldn't consider, for example, the societal costs of the op that means 12 weeks of work compared to the op that means two weeks off work. Some do, since health economists are interested in such things, but core NICE requirements don't tend to require it. It's muddied, of course, because if most people having said op are retired then the costs are less clear anyway.
I'm not arguing for or against letting the oldies have it (that argument has been done) or taking into account the wider societal costs, just that NICE, as a clinical and healthcare body, would not have it within their remit. I also appreciate the original comment was, of course, flippant.
According to this BBC measure, you're more privileged compared to others. Does this match your experience?
Me? privileged?
I am the grandson of humble immigrants to this country.
You are a male, privately and Cambridge educated lawyer and Remainer who votes LD, you couldn't get more un working class and privileged than that unless you were in the royal family!
The British dream - overcoming such humble origins to become such a man.
Has everyone forgotten that in the initial stages of the pandemic, the expert view from the likes of the WHO was that travel restrictions were stigmatising and counter-productive because of the damage to the economy?
Yeah but Boris was saying old people need to fuck off and die in Dec 2020 (if you belive Vallance)
Not quite. He was posing a difficult question, expecting attempts to answer it to advance understanding about what to do. A bit like Socrates (not our much missed poster of that pseudonym)
I still don't understand why we could not have just locked down old people (e.g. 60+). Surely that would have been a reasonable compromise? I was saying it a lot at the time and I don't understand why it was never even discussed.
I still don't buy the 'Britain Trump' attempted comparisons. At the end of the day Boris is a good bullshitter, a good salesman, and has some areas where is makes the right call, but he is also very much a figure of the establishment mainstream (just with Brexit part of a fight within the mainstream party). Wild hair and bloviating remarks don't turn him into a dangerous radical, even if reports of stuff like this would hardly inspire confidence.
In fairness, I see this as typical Boris say-the-unsayable japery, designed to elicit schoolboy giggles of appreciation from the assembled acolytes. If not Boris is a complete monster.
Hmm. I might have to revise my initial assessment. The actual quotation from Vallance is that Boris was 'obsessed with older people accepting their fate and letting the young get on with life and the economy going'. Obsessed? Sounds like he was on some kind of monomaniacal crusade to purge the nation of its old.
According to this BBC measure, you're more privileged compared to others. Does this match your experience?
Me? privileged?
I am the grandson of humble immigrants to this country.
You are a male, privately and Cambridge educated lawyer and Remainer who votes LD, you couldn't get more un working class and privileged than that unless you were in the royal family!
No wonder TSE is such a republican.
Is voting LD a one of the markers? Voting intention might be a signifier of privilege but it is not a determinant.
Apparently I am like the most privileged person ever...but come from Stoke, family are working class, none went to uni, didn't go to private school....
hmmm, I think the authors of that test have a very narrow definition of not privileged!
According to this BBC measure, you're more privileged compared to others. Does this match your experience?
Me? privileged?
I am the grandson of humble immigrants to this country.
You are a male, privately and Cambridge educated lawyer and Remainer who votes LD, you couldn't get more un working class and privileged than that unless you were in the royal family!
Yes, total sympathy with Boris here. He was saying what everyone was saying. The idea these concepts should not be broached- by the PM - is insane. No doubt Churchill had pretty robust and ugly arguments during WW2, about the deaths of various civilians, He was simply lucky he didn’t have them recorded on WhatsApp
Traditionally, when a British government decides that keeping some people alive will cost too much they just outsource the dirty work to NICE. Johnson’s mistake was not sending the decision across to a quango.
Yup, sanitise it by expressing it all in terms of Qalys
Given NICE traditionally look at QALYs versus direct healthcare costs, lockdown would be win-win (most NICE-funded assessments don't look at wider societal costs/benefits, mostly because that's too hard)
Ah yes. “It’s too hard to measure/fix, so just ignore that”.
Bringing triumphs of policy ever since a bloke failed to consider the wider implications of half inching some fruit from a tree.
The wider implications being that it inspired the song "Agadoo"?
Has everyone forgotten that in the initial stages of the pandemic, the expert view from the likes of the WHO was that travel restrictions were stigmatising and counter-productive because of the damage to the economy?
Once covid was well seeded in a country, travel restrictions probably did little to slow transmission, given you are as likely to export the infected as to import them.
Only if you think probability for any binary choice is always 50-50.
If you have a lockdown to bring down the incidence of the virus in this country, then having people travel through crowded airports, on planes, or into other countries is making it far more likely that the virus will be imported than that it will be exported.
Not sealing the border defeats the entire purpose of having a lockdown.
My view is lockdowns were a mistake but even if you still say we should have had one, it was done wrong. Schools should be the last place to close and the first to reopen, the border should be the other way around.
Sure, when you had actual lockdowns, and people weren't allowed out the house, then you are absolutely correct.
But the UK was locked down for, what, four months out of the 18 of covid, and there were severe travel restrictions throughout that period. (The US was worse, of course)
The damage was psychological. Every government announcement hammered at the collective psyche. It may only have been four months lockdown but the shadow hung over the country the entire time.
Who didn't have an overwhelming feeling of dead when tightening was rumoured.
That alone is ample reason why we should never have had compulsory lockdowns albeit I understand why the government mandated the first one.
Has everyone forgotten that in the initial stages of the pandemic, the expert view from the likes of the WHO was that travel restrictions were stigmatising and counter-productive because of the damage to the economy?
Yeah but Boris was saying old people need to fuck off and die in Dec 2020 (if you belive Vallance)
Not quite. He was posing a difficult question, expecting attempts to answer it to advance understanding about what to do. A bit like Socrates (not our much missed poster of that pseudonym)
I still don't understand why we could not have just locked down old people (e.g. 60+). Surely that would have been a reasonable compromise? I was saying it a lot at the time and I don't understand why it was never even discussed.
What happens to the people who look after the over 60s?
Yes, total sympathy with Boris here. He was saying what everyone was saying. The idea these concepts should not be broached- by the PM - is insane. No doubt Churchill had pretty robust and ugly arguments during WW2, about the deaths of various civilians, He was simply lucky he didn’t have them recorded on WhatsApp
The only way that analogy works is if Churchill were suggesting that old and infirm sections of the population be denied access to bomb shelters because they were going to die soon anyway.
Has everyone forgotten that in the initial stages of the pandemic, the expert view from the likes of the WHO was that travel restrictions were stigmatising and counter-productive because of the damage to the economy?
Once covid was well seeded in a country, travel restrictions probably did little to slow transmission, given you are as likely to export the infected as to import them.
Only if you think probability for any binary choice is always 50-50.
If you have a lockdown to bring down the incidence of the virus in this country, then having people travel through crowded airports, on planes, or into other countries is making it far more likely that the virus will be imported than that it will be exported.
Not sealing the border defeats the entire purpose of having a lockdown.
My view is lockdowns were a mistake but even if you still say we should have had one, it was done wrong. Schools should be the last place to close and the first to reopen, the border should be the other way around.
Sure, when you had actual lockdowns, and people weren't allowed out the house, then you are absolutely correct.
But the UK was locked down for, what, four months out of the 18 of covid, and there were severe travel restrictions throughout that period. (The US was worse, of course)
The UK was under restrictions for 18 months out of 18.
If you can't go to a nightclub in your own town, but can in Ibiza, there's something deeply wrong.
Especially when in your own town, you can't just not go clubbing, but can't go to restaurants, or other people's houses or much more. The restrictions on visiting people went way beyond four months.
Has everyone forgotten that in the initial stages of the pandemic, the expert view from the likes of the WHO was that travel restrictions were stigmatising and counter-productive because of the damage to the economy?
Once covid was well seeded in a country, travel restrictions probably did little to slow transmission, given you are as likely to export the infected as to import them.
Only if you think probability for any binary choice is always 50-50.
If you have a lockdown to bring down the incidence of the virus in this country, then having people travel through crowded airports, on planes, or into other countries is making it far more likely that the virus will be imported than that it will be exported.
Not sealing the border defeats the entire purpose of having a lockdown.
My view is lockdowns were a mistake but even if you still say we should have had one, it was done wrong. Schools should be the last place to close and the first to reopen, the border should be the other way around.
Sure, when you had actual lockdowns, and people weren't allowed out the house, then you are absolutely correct.
But the UK was locked down for, what, four months out of the 18 of covid, and there were severe travel restrictions throughout that period. (The US was worse, of course)
Lockdown lasted 102 days, from 23 March to 3 July. It was much less draconian than in some other countries. We have friends who were marooned in Spain, unable to venture more than 100m from their flat, obliged to buy food from the nearest (crappy) outlet. And ever-helpful armed cops on every street corner to remind them.
Now I have got my ultra privileged card, does this mean I can go around and act like a total knob throwing paint around, holding up traffic, etc and not get punished for it?
I still don't buy the 'Britain Trump' attempted comparisons. At the end of the day Boris is a good bullshitter, a good salesman, and has some areas where is makes the right call, but he is also very much a figure of the establishment mainstream (just with Brexit part of a fight within the mainstream party). Wild hair and bloviating remarks don't turn him into a dangerous radical, even if reports of stuff like this would hardly inspire confidence.
Trump isn’t a dangerous radical in any ideological sense, he’s a narcissistic sociopath whose hierarchy is him, his family (ie his genetic bequest to the world) and very far behind his expendable sycophants, every one else can fuck themselves. Britain Trump isn’t so far away.
Now I have got my ultra privileged card, does this mean I can go around and act like a total knob throwing paint around, holding up traffic, etc and not get punished for it?
Ultimate privilege is burning £50 notes in front of poor/homeless people.
Has everyone forgotten that in the initial stages of the pandemic, the expert view from the likes of the WHO was that travel restrictions were stigmatising and counter-productive because of the damage to the economy?
Yeah but Boris was saying old people need to fuck off and die in Dec 2020 (if you belive Vallance)
Haven't we known for some time that he said "let the bodies pile high"?
I'm starting to think Boris might actually be deranged. Did he believe that he was literally the second coming of Churchill with both their lives having uncanny parallels, and a controversial death toll during Covid was to be his Dresden moment? I'm struggling to think of another explanation.
Has everyone forgotten that in the initial stages of the pandemic, the expert view from the likes of the WHO was that travel restrictions were stigmatising and counter-productive because of the damage to the economy?
Yeah but Boris was saying old people need to fuck off and die in Dec 2020 (if you belive Vallance)
Not quite. He was posing a difficult question, expecting attempts to answer it to advance understanding about what to do. A bit like Socrates (not our much missed poster of that pseudonym)
I still don't understand why we could not have just locked down old people (e.g. 60+). Surely that would have been a reasonable compromise? I was saying it a lot at the time and I don't understand why it was never even discussed.
Good point. It would hardly have made much difference to us oldies since we didn't go anywhere anyway and got deliveries from Tesco/Waitrose etc. And the yoof could merrily spread it about and no need for vaccines. Since the virus discriminated visciously by age it might have seemed bleeding obvious.
Now I have got my ultra privileged card, does this mean I can go around and act like a total knob throwing paint around, holding up traffic, etc and not get punished for it?
Ultimate privilege is burning £50 notes in front of poor/homeless people.
Especially given how hard it is to even get hold of a £50 note these days.
Yes, total sympathy with Boris here. He was saying what everyone was saying. The idea these concepts should not be broached- by the PM - is insane. No doubt Churchill had pretty robust and ugly arguments during WW2, about the deaths of various civilians, He was simply lucky he didn’t have them recorded on WhatsApp
I agree. It’s this Inquiry culture, following Iraq, that drove all decision making on to WhatsApp (and presumably now has made it all verbal). People in the midst of making impossible decisions need a bit of latitude to make them, and have the real detail secret for years, so that future historians at least have the detail.
I'm not so certain.
Government has a degree of accountability, not least to the electorate, and transparency, so we know the reasons why decisions were taken in our name.
Many individuals have kept diaries as their record of events - perhaps less for future inquiries as for future memoirs. It's been possible for those cited unfavourably in said diaries to deny what was said or suggest an agenda or to be more charitable claim a misinterpretation.
WhatsApp isn't any of that - it enables people to record their most personal thoughts and to share them. Should it be the kind of medium used in a professional working environment? If Cummings or others used WhatsApp in lieu of a diary they can't be surprised if one day what they said comes to light.
Yes, it was a very difficult time but this is Government - these are professional people trained to "make impossible decisions". Johnson schemed and manoeuvred for 20 years to become Conservative leader and Prime Minister - this was the job he always wanted. He was no political novice - neither was Cummings.
Apparently I am like the most privileged person ever...but come from Stoke, family are working class, none went to uni, didn't go to private school....
hmmm, I think the authors of that test have a very narrow definition of not privileged!
It seems that they are determining privilege according to work/social environment and acceptance, and family circumstances. Not wealth or education.
Not a dreadful way of calculating it before everyone goes all four Yorkshiremen.
Has everyone forgotten that in the initial stages of the pandemic, the expert view from the likes of the WHO was that travel restrictions were stigmatising and counter-productive because of the damage to the economy?
Once covid was well seeded in a country, travel restrictions probably did little to slow transmission, given you are as likely to export the infected as to import them.
Only if you think probability for any binary choice is always 50-50.
If you have a lockdown to bring down the incidence of the virus in this country, then having people travel through crowded airports, on planes, or into other countries is making it far more likely that the virus will be imported than that it will be exported.
Not sealing the border defeats the entire purpose of having a lockdown.
My view is lockdowns were a mistake but even if you still say we should have had one, it was done wrong. Schools should be the last place to close and the first to reopen, the border should be the other way around.
Sure, when you had actual lockdowns, and people weren't allowed out the house, then you are absolutely correct.
But the UK was locked down for, what, four months out of the 18 of covid, and there were severe travel restrictions throughout that period. (The US was worse, of course)
You forget the joy of the tiers. Some parts of the North East were effectively locked down for six months continuously from Autumn ‘20 to Spring ‘21. The infamous Kent variant meant we never really came out of lockdown two before we went into the third one. Shambles.
Yes, total sympathy with Boris here. He was saying what everyone was saying. The idea these concepts should not be broached- by the PM - is insane. No doubt Churchill had pretty robust and ugly arguments during WW2, about the deaths of various civilians, He was simply lucky he didn’t have them recorded on WhatsApp
Traditionally, when a British government decides that keeping some people alive will cost too much they just outsource the dirty work to NICE. Johnson’s mistake was not sending the decision across to a quango.
Yup, sanitise it by expressing it all in terms of Qalys
Given NICE traditionally look at QALYs versus direct healthcare costs, lockdown would be win-win (most NICE-funded assessments don't look at wider societal costs/benefits, mostly because that's too hard)
Cost of furlough though.
Not a direct healthcare cost.
Most assessments wouldn't consider, for example, the societal costs of the op that means 12 weeks of work compared to the op that means two weeks off work. Some do, since health economists are interested in such things, but core NICE requirements don't tend to require it. It's muddied, of course, because if most people having said op are retired then the costs are less clear anyway.
I'm not arguing for or against letting the oldies have it (that argument has been done) or taking into account the wider societal costs, just that NICE, as a clinical and healthcare body, would not have it within their remit. I also appreciate the original comment was, of course, flippant.
Oh I agree. Just joining in the theoretical game. I think our notional modeller at the time probably would view furlough as a direct cost because it was a foreseeable, budgeted Government payment. I.e. something with a budget line whereas societal costs happen elsewhere.
Now I have got my ultra privileged card, does this mean I can go around and act like a total knob throwing paint around, holding up traffic, etc and not get punished for it?
Ultimate privilege is burning £50 notes in front of poor/homeless people.
That is a bit Bullingdon club passe, Rishi has his private jet flown over homeless and poor people!
Now I have got my ultra privileged card, does this mean I can go around and act like a total knob throwing paint around, holding up traffic, etc and not get punished for it?
Ultimate privilege is burning £50 notes in front of poor/homeless people.
Now I have got my ultra privileged card, does this mean I can go around and act like a total knob throwing paint around, holding up traffic, etc and not get punished for it?
Ultimate privilege is burning £50 notes in front of poor/homeless people.
What's a £50 note?
Something you pay courtesans with and apparently drug dealers as well.
Apparently I am like the most privileged person ever...but come from Stoke, family are working class, none went to uni, didn't go to private school....
hmmm, I think the authors of that test have a very narrow definition of not privileged!
It seems that they are determining privilege according to work/social environment and acceptance, and family circumstances. Not wealth or education.
Not a dreadful way of calculating it before everyone goes all four Yorkshiremen.
This doesn’t really annoy me - very similar things have been said on PB. I think its right that there are no 'unsayable' things in such meetings. I also tend to doubt the accuracy of minutes/notes. We already know where Vallance stood on lockdown - clearly he was a hawk. We don't know why (a cynic could argue he liked the power), but it probably coloured his view.
As someone has already commented, what we should be doing with the enquiry is establishing whether we took the best approach to Covid in the round, and what should the policy be if similar circumstances arise again. It seems to be more an airing of tittle tattle, which is a pity.
Point is they seem to have put some of it into practice - and lied about if afterwards. The public will accept hard choices, sometimes, if their leaders are honest about the decisions. When they dissemble about it, they’re rightly condemned as cowards.
Acting the hard man, in secret, is just contemptible.
Has everyone forgotten that in the initial stages of the pandemic, the expert view from the likes of the WHO was that travel restrictions were stigmatising and counter-productive because of the damage to the economy?
Once covid was well seeded in a country, travel restrictions probably did little to slow transmission, given you are as likely to export the infected as to import them.
Only if you think probability for any binary choice is always 50-50.
If you have a lockdown to bring down the incidence of the virus in this country, then having people travel through crowded airports, on planes, or into other countries is making it far more likely that the virus will be imported than that it will be exported.
Not sealing the border defeats the entire purpose of having a lockdown.
My view is lockdowns were a mistake but even if you still say we should have had one, it was done wrong. Schools should be the last place to close and the first to reopen, the border should be the other way around.
Sure, when you had actual lockdowns, and people weren't allowed out the house, then you are absolutely correct.
But the UK was locked down for, what, four months out of the 18 of covid, and there were severe travel restrictions throughout that period. (The US was worse, of course)
Lockdown lasted 102 days, from 23 March to 3 July. It was much less draconian than in some other countries. We have friends who were marooned in Spain, unable to venture more than 100m from their flat, obliged to buy food from the nearest (crappy) outlet. And ever-helpful armed cops on every street corner to remind them.
So what. We are British. Not Spanish, nor Chinese. I entirely understand why Boris was so reluctant to lock us down. About the only good thing he did was to be the lockdown sceptic in the face of the CMO and CSO and the LotO. Thanks fuck for Boris. Starmer would have been firing up the welders.
Now I have got my ultra privileged card, does this mean I can go around and act like a total knob throwing paint around, holding up traffic, etc and not get punished for it?
Ultimate privilege is burning £50 notes in front of poor/homeless people.
If I really wanted to show off and rub it in a bit I would burn £50 notes in front of the hard pressed middle classes rather than wasting it on poor/homeless people.
Apparently I am like the most privileged person ever...but come from Stoke, family are working class, none went to uni, didn't go to private school....
hmmm, I think the authors of that test have a very narrow definition of not privileged!
It seems that they are determining privilege according to work/social environment and acceptance, and family circumstances. Not wealth or education.
Not a dreadful way of calculating it before everyone goes all four Yorkshiremen.
Weirdly the place I have been least accepted is when I went to work in a warehouse in Stoke during my uni summer holidays and the workers didn't believe I was actually from Stoke, because apparently "I talked posh"...I think that's called talking proppa, because I wasn't going up Hanley, rather I was going to Hanley.
Apparently I am like the most privileged person ever...but come from Stoke, family are working class, none went to uni, didn't go to private school....
hmmm, I think the authors of that test have a very narrow definition of not privileged!
It seems that they are determining privilege according to work/social environment and acceptance, and family circumstances. Not wealth or education.
Not a dreadful way of calculating it before everyone goes all four Yorkshiremen.
But I am an actual Yorkshireman.
You've never had to pay your parents' bills though, I'd guess. Didn't they buy you a house?
Apparently I am like the most privileged person ever...but come from Stoke, family are working class, none went to uni, didn't go to private school....
hmmm, I think the authors of that test have a very narrow definition of not privileged!
It seems that they are determining privilege according to work/social environment and acceptance, and family circumstances. Not wealth or education.
Not a dreadful way of calculating it before everyone goes all four Yorkshiremen.
But I am an actual Yorkshireman.
You're good, Yorkshireman, but you're not THAT good. You could be magnificent!
Today my adventures consisted of having to go to Golders Green. On the tube (ugh - Boris bikes don't reach that far north).
Some observations.
1. It was much hotter on the Northern Line than likely any day this year on Brighton beach;
2. I saw one of those The Dyke Project (for that is it) posters. "It's hard being gay in Gaza but I kissed lots of boys and now the nasty Israelis are bombing us" vibe. The poster said also no one is free until everyone is free and exhorted the UK to"stop funding Israel and the Israeli military". A very global gay concern I'm sure;
3. In Golders Green itself there were plenty of policemen and private security types around; and
4. I saw a group of presumably Jewish primary school age children trick or treating along the main road. With a police escort.
1. I hope you were wearing more than just your speedos on the Northern Line.
4. Primary school children should never need a police escort to be children. Intolerance needs to be challenged.
Remember, despite a 15x increase in racist incidents, it’s all false consciousness. Or something.
It seems that some people are reaching for the moral heights of the Holy Cross dispute in Northern Ireland.
Apparently I am like the most privileged person ever...but come from Stoke, family are working class, none went to uni, didn't go to private school....
hmmm, I think the authors of that test have a very narrow definition of not privileged!
It seems that they are determining privilege according to work/social environment and acceptance, and family circumstances. Not wealth or education.
Not a dreadful way of calculating it before everyone goes all four Yorkshiremen.
It seems like the strangest and most boring game of Top Trumps ever.
I've been at meetings where I was the only white person present. Does that mean I'm [A] privileged, [B] not privileged, or [C] it doesn't make any difference at all?
Apparently I am like the most privileged person ever...but come from Stoke, family are working class, none went to uni, didn't go to private school....
hmmm, I think the authors of that test have a very narrow definition of not privileged!
It seems that they are determining privilege according to work/social environment and acceptance, and family circumstances. Not wealth or education.
Not a dreadful way of calculating it before everyone goes all four Yorkshiremen.
But I am an actual Yorkshireman.
You've never had to pay your parents' bills though, I'd guess. Didn't they buy you a house?
They paid for the deposit, furnishings, the mortgage for the first three months, I repaid them back.
At 21 I had a mortgage before I started my first job.
(Granny Eagles also contributed, but died before I could pay her back, although she would have refused the money, as did my parents.)
Comments
Presumably the then Chancellor knew about all of this and approved. Otherwise he would have resigned at the time or would at the very least have spoken up later on. Now what was his name again...
BBC said to have used similar ‘diversity training’ – take our quiz to see how you would you fare"
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/31/conservative-interns-privilege-test-patchwork-foundation/
You know, all I needed from,Corbyn back in the day for his party splitting foibles was a credible explanation, in a speech for example, of his years as a "peace activist" and how he ended up.in the situations he had. I was more than willing to give him a hearing. But instead we got passive resistance and Occam's razor had to apply.
As someone has already commented, what we should be doing with the enquiry is establishing whether we took the best approach to Covid in the round, and what should the policy be if similar circumstances arise again. It seems to be more an airing of tittle tattle, which is a pity.
I still don't buy the 'Britain Trump' attempted comparisons. At the end of the day Boris is a good bullshitter, a good salesman, and has some areas where is makes the right call, but he is also very much a figure of the establishment mainstream (just with Brexit part of a fight within the mainstream party). Wild hair and bloviating remarks don't turn him into a dangerous radical, even if reports of stuff like this would hardly inspire confidence.
Some observations.
1. It was much hotter on the Northern Line than likely any day this year on Brighton beach;
2. I saw one of those The Dyke Project (for that is it) posters. "It's hard being gay in Gaza but I kissed lots of boys and now the nasty Israelis are bombing us" vibe. The poster said also no one is free until everyone is free and exhorted the UK to"stop funding Israel and the Israeli military". A very global gay concern I'm sure;
3. In Golders Green itself there were plenty of policemen and private security types around; and
4. I saw a group of presumably Jewish primary school age children trick or treating along the main road. With a police escort.
AN APOLOGY TO MISTER @Richard_Tyndall
Sorry old bean, constantly telling you to Shut the Fuck Up on the last thread was not my finest moment. Two LARGE gin and tonics and a dreamlike twilight at The Temple of Concord, Agrigento, got me over excited. Yes, I stand by my statement, you REALLY need to go the Tas Tepeler to understand how revolutionary they are (and I’ve been to pre-ceramic sites all over the Mid East) but phrasing it as YOU ARE A MORON, MOFO, SO STFU was less then elegant
I make no such apology to @bondegezou and I hope he is soon replaced by AI. GPT2 should easily suffice, indeed I already wonder if he is some kind of low-grade bot
Give these people a bit of a break for things said in the heat of the moment, even Boris.
You scored 15 / 20
According to this BBC measure, you're more privileged compared to others. Does this match your experience?
Me? privileged?
I am the grandson of humble immigrants to this country.
What Johnson loses in terms of the grey vote, could well be balanced by what he gains in terms of the type of cold eyed psychos who think Ayn Rand was a hopeless bleeding heart, and want to kill grandma immediately.
It's very much swings and roundabouts.
4. Primary school children should never need a police escort to be children. Intolerance needs to be challenged.
nothing about school, nothing really that would separate me from an Etonian, yet there is a clear opportunity divide between the lower middle and the top.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/31/conservative-interns-privilege-test-patchwork-foundation/
I presume it is this,
https://www.bbc.co.uk/creativediversity/allyshipapp
If you have a lockdown to bring down the incidence of the virus in this country, then having people travel through crowded airports, on planes, or into other countries is making it far more likely that the virus will be imported than that it will be exported.
Not sealing the border defeats the entire purpose of having a lockdown.
My view is lockdowns were a mistake but even if you still say we should have had one, it was done wrong. Schools should be the last place to close and the first to reopen, the border should be the other way around.
But the UK was locked down for, what, four months out of the 18 of covid, and there were severe travel restrictions throughout that period. (The US was worse, of course)
Bringing triumphs of policy ever since a bloke failed to consider the wider implications of half inching some fruit from a tree.
Most assessments wouldn't consider, for example, the societal costs of the op that means 12 weeks of work compared to the op that means two weeks off work. Some do, since health economists are interested in such things, but core NICE requirements don't tend to require it. It's muddied, of course, because if most people having said op are retired then the costs are less clear anyway.
I'm not arguing for or against letting the oldies have it (that argument has been done) or taking into account the wider societal costs, just that NICE, as a clinical and healthcare body, would not have it within their remit. I also appreciate the original comment was, of course, flippant.
Is voting LD a one of the markers? Voting intention might be a signifier of privilege but it is not a determinant.
hmmm, I think the authors of that test have a very narrow definition of not privileged!
Who didn't have an overwhelming feeling of dead when tightening was rumoured.
That alone is ample reason why we should never have had compulsory lockdowns albeit I understand why the government mandated the first one.
It was my time at university that gave me the self confidence that you see today.
The epiphanies you have when you realise you are the smartest person in most, if not all, rooms is life changing.
If you can't go to a nightclub in your own town, but can in Ibiza, there's something deeply wrong.
Especially when in your own town, you can't just not go clubbing, but can't go to restaurants, or other people's houses or much more. The restrictions on visiting people went way beyond four months.
Since the virus discriminated visciously by age it might have seemed bleeding obvious.
Government has a degree of accountability, not least to the electorate, and transparency, so we know the reasons why decisions were taken in our name.
Many individuals have kept diaries as their record of events - perhaps less for future inquiries as for future memoirs. It's been possible for those cited unfavourably in said diaries to deny what was said or suggest an agenda or to be more charitable claim a misinterpretation.
WhatsApp isn't any of that - it enables people to record their most personal thoughts and to share them. Should it be the kind of medium used in a professional working environment? If Cummings or others used WhatsApp in lieu of a diary they can't be surprised if one day what they said comes to light.
Yes, it was a very difficult time but this is Government - these are professional people trained to "make impossible decisions". Johnson schemed and manoeuvred for 20 years to become Conservative leader and Prime Minister - this was the job he always wanted. He was no political novice - neither was Cummings.
Not a dreadful way of calculating it before everyone goes all four Yorkshiremen.
The public will accept hard choices, sometimes, if their leaders are honest about the decisions. When they dissemble about it, they’re rightly condemned as cowards.
Acting the hard man, in secret, is just contemptible.
It seems that some people are reaching for the moral heights of the Holy Cross dispute in Northern Ireland.
I've been at meetings where I was the only white person present. Does that mean I'm [A] privileged, [B] not privileged, or [C] it doesn't make any difference at all?
At 21 I had a mortgage before I started my first job.
(Granny Eagles also contributed, but died before I could pay her back, although she would have refused the money, as did my parents.)