Glad to be back with PB – politicalbetting.com

System

Glad to be back with PB – politicalbetting.com

I am now back from my short hospital break. Thanks for all the good wishes

Read the full story here

FrancisUrquhart

Cornell University calls in FBI to investigate anti-Semitic threats against students

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/30/fbi-investigates-anti-semitic-threats-at-cornell-university/

Benpointer

Welcome back Mike!

Peter_the_Punter

Welcome back, Mike.

Nothing much happened while you were away. Never does when TSE is in charge.

Atb and stay well.

Taz

Good to see you back Mike

Beibheirli_C

Welcome back Mike

Benpointer

rcs1000 said:

Benpointer said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

MaxPB said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MaxPB said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

carnforth said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

carnforth said:

Taz said:

Small businesses are being hammered by the war on cash.

Fees for contactless are rising massively for small businesses.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cardsloans/article-12682825/Pay-cash-spare-crippling-card-fees-plead-traders.html

"The cost of processing a card payment has increased by 600 per cent in the past nine years, according to campaign group Axe the Card Tax."

Doubt.

They says costs are 2.5% now so back in 2014 costs were 0.004%?

I call fucking bullshit.

0.4%, Shirley? 600 percent is six times.

I still call fucking bullshit.

Card costs have come down.

Numerical calculation out by a factor of 100 but fronting it out and doubling down on your original claim, bold. Have you considered a career in politics, young man?

It was a lack of self confidence that stopped me going into politics.

I am way too modest for politics.

I can imagine.

I really did consider going into politics 20 years ago but there were a few insurmountable barriers

1) I would be considered gaffe prone for saying outrageous things with my colour metaphors. Apparently I have a tendency to say funny things which you really cannot say in polite society.

2) My mother wouldn't be able to cope with the constant attacks politicians come under. My private life is erm colourful. Her muslim ladies who lunch group would be ashamed by me.

3) MP pay is shit, I couldn't afford all my shoes and clothes on an MP's salary.

4) I have to keep my mind occupied, I really couldn't sit on the backbenches for a few years, I need to go straight into the cabinet.

When I was asked by the local party to consider it I went through a similar process and decided that:

1. I don't want the hassle of being backbench MP in opposition as would likely be the case by the time I won
2. It would be a gigantic pay cut and I'm not really up for it
3. I'm prone to speaking my mind and that means my ceiling is probably quite limited and the party machinery would see an end to any career beyond being a dreary constituency MP that asks the odd question on behalf of some old dear that can't use the NHS app to book an appointment.
4. And I can't stress this one enough, it would have made my wife extremely unhappy and ultimately that was the decision maker.

Yes, point 4 applied to me as well.

My then girlfriend/future wife was also quite clear she hated all Tories and would say so publicly.

Mine doesn't really want a life in or anywhere near the public eye. She said pretty sternly that the only way she'd agree is if my aim was to become PM and since that's not realistic (I didn't go to Oxford) I decided she had a point.

Major didn't go to Oxford either!

Nor did Gordon Brown.

Name the last UK general election winner who graduated from a university other than Oxford?

Stanley Baldwin?

bigjohnowls

Great to see you back Mike

BartholomewRoberts

Glad you're well enough to be back Mike, hope you stay healthy.

BlancheLivermore

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

londonpubman

👍👍

DoubleCarpet

Hope you are doing well Mike, great to have you back.

Casino_Royale

Welcome back Mike.

Beibheirli_C

I guess that apart from welcoming Mike back, every comment will be Off-Topic!

malcolmg

Welcome back Mike

kyf_100

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

I think the problem is that islam is a political ideology in some parts as much as a religious one. I am afraid of radical islam for the same reason I am afraid of fascism, and for much the same reason. I've no such fear of Christians or Zoroastrians.

Where we in the west have made our bloomer, is in trying to be tolerant and diverse to all religions, which is admirable, without acknowledging the political aspects and tenents of radical Islam. What is happening at the moment is not about religion, it is about fascism. We believe fascism looks like Herr Flick in his dark uniform and leather coat. Unfortunately it takes other forms.

Sunil_Prasannan

Get well soon, Mike!

Beibheirli_C

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Religions have always spent a lot of time fighting amongst themselves as well as with each other.

It is almost like watching programmers argue whether we should be using OOP or FP except programmers do not kill each other over it - possibly because computer code is a darn sight more useful than gods...

Scott_xP

...

BartholomewRoberts

kyf_100 said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

I think the problem is that islam is a political ideology in some parts as much as a religious one. I am afraid of radical islam for the same reason I am afraid of fascism, and for much the same reason. I've no such fear of Christians or Zoroastrians.

Where we in the west have made our bloomer, is in trying to be tolerant and diverse to all religions, which is admirable, without acknowledging the political aspects and tenents of radical Islam. What is happening at the moment is not about religion, it is about fascism. We believe fascism looks like Herr Flick in his dark uniform and leather coat. Unfortunately it takes other forms.

In a secular society then being tolerant and diverse to all religions is entirely reasonable, since if society is secular people can choose their own religion (or none) and it doesn't affect anyone else.

The clash of cultures comes when people oppose secularism and want their faith imposed by force as it is the "word of Yahweh/God/Allah/Buddha/FSM" himself.

Whether that be radical Islamists, radical Christians, radical Buddhist/Jews/Hindus/Vegans/whatever anyone who tries to impose their fundamentalism onto others is a problem.

tlg86

Welcome back Mike.

Sunil_Prasannan

kyf_100 said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

I think the problem is that islam is a political ideology in some parts as much as a religious one. I am afraid of radical islam for the same reason I am afraid of fascism, and for much the same reason. I've no such fear of Christians or Zoroastrians.

Where we in the west have made our bloomer, is in trying to be tolerant and diverse to all religions, which is admirable, without acknowledging the political aspects and tenents of radical Islam. What is happening at the moment is not about religion, it is about fascism. We believe fascism looks like Herr Flick in his dark uniform and leather coat. Unfortunately it takes other forms.

"No, I said 'Flick the Gestapo'!"

Beibheirli_C

BartholomewRoberts said:

kyf_100 said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

I think the problem is that islam is a political ideology in some parts as much as a religious one. I am afraid of radical islam for the same reason I am afraid of fascism, and for much the same reason. I've no such fear of Christians or Zoroastrians.

Where we in the west have made our bloomer, is in trying to be tolerant and diverse to all religions, which is admirable, without acknowledging the political aspects and tenents of radical Islam. What is happening at the moment is not about religion, it is about fascism. We believe fascism looks like Herr Flick in his dark uniform and leather coat. Unfortunately it takes other forms.

In a secular society then being tolerant and diverse to all religions is entirely reasonable, since if society is secular people can choose their own religion (or none) and it doesn't affect anyone else.

The clash of cultures comes when people oppose secularism and want their faith imposed by force as it is the "word of Yahweh/God/Allah/Buddha/FSM" himself.

Whether that be radical Islamists, radical Christians, radical Buddhist/Jews/Hindus/Vegans/whatever anyone who tries to impose their fundamentalism onto others is a problem.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out in the USA. Apparently the new Speaker they elected is something of a fundamentalist himself.

FeersumEnjineeya

Good to have you back again, Mike :-)

HYUFD

BartholomewRoberts said:

kyf_100 said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

I think the problem is that islam is a political ideology in some parts as much as a religious one. I am afraid of radical islam for the same reason I am afraid of fascism, and for much the same reason. I've no such fear of Christians or Zoroastrians.

Where we in the west have made our bloomer, is in trying to be tolerant and diverse to all religions, which is admirable, without acknowledging the political aspects and tenents of radical Islam. What is happening at the moment is not about religion, it is about fascism. We believe fascism looks like Herr Flick in his dark uniform and leather coat. Unfortunately it takes other forms.

In a secular society then being tolerant and diverse to all religions is entirely reasonable, since if society is secular people can choose their own religion (or none) and it doesn't affect anyone else.

The clash of cultures comes when people oppose secularism and want their faith imposed by force as it is the "word of Yahweh/God/Allah/Buddha/FSM" himself.

Whether that be radical Islamists, radical Christians, radical Buddhist/Jews/Hindus/Vegans/whatever anyone who tries to impose their fundamentalism onto others is a problem.

The National Secular Society opposes religious schools and wants to close them all

HYUFD

Beibheirli_C said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

kyf_100 said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

I think the problem is that islam is a political ideology in some parts as much as a religious one. I am afraid of radical islam for the same reason I am afraid of fascism, and for much the same reason. I've no such fear of Christians or Zoroastrians.

Where we in the west have made our bloomer, is in trying to be tolerant and diverse to all religions, which is admirable, without acknowledging the political aspects and tenents of radical Islam. What is happening at the moment is not about religion, it is about fascism. We believe fascism looks like Herr Flick in his dark uniform and leather coat. Unfortunately it takes other forms.

In a secular society then being tolerant and diverse to all religions is entirely reasonable, since if society is secular people can choose their own religion (or none) and it doesn't affect anyone else.

The clash of cultures comes when people oppose secularism and want their faith imposed by force as it is the "word of Yahweh/God/Allah/Buddha/FSM" himself.

Whether that be radical Islamists, radical Christians, radical Buddhist/Jews/Hindus/Vegans/whatever anyone who tries to impose their fundamentalism onto others is a problem.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out in the USA. Apparently the new Speaker they elected is something of a fundamentalist himself.

He is a Southern Baptists but then that is the largest Protestant denomination in the USA, hardly on the fringes

FrankBooth

Hurrah

MaxPB

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

Pro_Rata

I will add my own "Welcome back, Mike" to the mix.

Richard_Tyndall

Welcome back Mike. Delighted you are at the helm again.... though TSE did just about manage to keep things together

Hope all went well on the health front.

MaxPB

Also welcome back, Mike. Glad you're doing well enough to get out of hospital.

TimS

Welcome back Mike. I look forward now to a period of calm and peacefulness in world events.

Anabobazina

Welcome back, Mike.

Best wishes for a speedy and full recovery.

Sunil_Prasannan

HYUFD said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

kyf_100 said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

I think the problem is that islam is a political ideology in some parts as much as a religious one. I am afraid of radical islam for the same reason I am afraid of fascism, and for much the same reason. I've no such fear of Christians or Zoroastrians.

Where we in the west have made our bloomer, is in trying to be tolerant and diverse to all religions, which is admirable, without acknowledging the political aspects and tenents of radical Islam. What is happening at the moment is not about religion, it is about fascism. We believe fascism looks like Herr Flick in his dark uniform and leather coat. Unfortunately it takes other forms.

In a secular society then being tolerant and diverse to all religions is entirely reasonable, since if society is secular people can choose their own religion (or none) and it doesn't affect anyone else.

The clash of cultures comes when people oppose secularism and want their faith imposed by force as it is the "word of Yahweh/God/Allah/Buddha/FSM" himself.

Whether that be radical Islamists, radical Christians, radical Buddhist/Jews/Hindus/Vegans/whatever anyone who tries to impose their fundamentalism onto others is a problem.

The National Secular Society opposes religious schools and wants to close them all

God doesn't exist.

BlancheLivermore

MaxPB said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

And women

kyf_100

MaxPB said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

https://youtu.be/-hS_6enMdco?feature=shared&t=178

I hate it when people ask me to watch long videos, so if you can't be arsed, watch for one minute after 3 minutes in.

That will tell you all you need to know about how LGBT people are seen in Palestinian territories.

Cows for McDonalds, etc.

BlancheLivermore

Sunil_Prasannan said:

HYUFD said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

kyf_100 said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

I think the problem is that islam is a political ideology in some parts as much as a religious one. I am afraid of radical islam for the same reason I am afraid of fascism, and for much the same reason. I've no such fear of Christians or Zoroastrians.

Where we in the west have made our bloomer, is in trying to be tolerant and diverse to all religions, which is admirable, without acknowledging the political aspects and tenents of radical Islam. What is happening at the moment is not about religion, it is about fascism. We believe fascism looks like Herr Flick in his dark uniform and leather coat. Unfortunately it takes other forms.

In a secular society then being tolerant and diverse to all religions is entirely reasonable, since if society is secular people can choose their own religion (or none) and it doesn't affect anyone else.

The clash of cultures comes when people oppose secularism and want their faith imposed by force as it is the "word of Yahweh/God/Allah/Buddha/FSM" himself.

Whether that be radical Islamists, radical Christians, radical Buddhist/Jews/Hindus/Vegans/whatever anyone who tries to impose their fundamentalism onto others is a problem.

The National Secular Society opposes religious schools and wants to close them all

God doesn't exist.

God exists, even if just as a notion

FrankBooth

At some point we are going to have to assess whether the large scale protests we are seeing on our streets will have some kind of political impact. My sense is that a lot of people will be bewildered by much of it. If Labour tears itself apart over a relatively small war going on 2000 miles away, there's a danger they don't look like a serious party of government.

Malmesbury

Welcome back, Mike

Carnyx

HYUFD said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

kyf_100 said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

I think the problem is that islam is a political ideology in some parts as much as a religious one. I am afraid of radical islam for the same reason I am afraid of fascism, and for much the same reason. I've no such fear of Christians or Zoroastrians.

Where we in the west have made our bloomer, is in trying to be tolerant and diverse to all religions, which is admirable, without acknowledging the political aspects and tenents of radical Islam. What is happening at the moment is not about religion, it is about fascism. We believe fascism looks like Herr Flick in his dark uniform and leather coat. Unfortunately it takes other forms.

In a secular society then being tolerant and diverse to all religions is entirely reasonable, since if society is secular people can choose their own religion (or none) and it doesn't affect anyone else.

The clash of cultures comes when people oppose secularism and want their faith imposed by force as it is the "word of Yahweh/God/Allah/Buddha/FSM" himself.

Whether that be radical Islamists, radical Christians, radical Buddhist/Jews/Hindus/Vegans/whatever anyone who tries to impose their fundamentalism onto others is a problem.

The National Secular Society opposes religious schools and wants to close them all

Interesting you replied like that. Nobody mentioned state subsidy for religous sects' indoctrination of children till you did.

Now you mention it, about time we closed down all sectarian schooling on council tax or central government money.

Nigelb

Huzzah !
And welcome back.

Beibheirli_C

HYUFD said:

Beibheirli_C said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

kyf_100 said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

I think the problem is that islam is a political ideology in some parts as much as a religious one. I am afraid of radical islam for the same reason I am afraid of fascism, and for much the same reason. I've no such fear of Christians or Zoroastrians.

Where we in the west have made our bloomer, is in trying to be tolerant and diverse to all religions, which is admirable, without acknowledging the political aspects and tenents of radical Islam. What is happening at the moment is not about religion, it is about fascism. We believe fascism looks like Herr Flick in his dark uniform and leather coat. Unfortunately it takes other forms.

In a secular society then being tolerant and diverse to all religions is entirely reasonable, since if society is secular people can choose their own religion (or none) and it doesn't affect anyone else.

The clash of cultures comes when people oppose secularism and want their faith imposed by force as it is the "word of Yahweh/God/Allah/Buddha/FSM" himself.

Whether that be radical Islamists, radical Christians, radical Buddhist/Jews/Hindus/Vegans/whatever anyone who tries to impose their fundamentalism onto others is a problem.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out in the USA. Apparently the new Speaker they elected is something of a fundamentalist himself.

He is a Southern Baptists but then that is the largest Protestant denomination in the USA, hardly on the fringes

Anti-gay, anti-trans, anti-democracy, anti-womens' health, pro-gun, pro-theocracy...

Oh yes, he's definitely a moderate. Not!

Nigelb

BlancheLivermore said:

MaxPB said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

And women...

And everyone else, who isn't their brand of religious loon.

TimS

FrankBooth said:

At some point we are going to have to assess whether the large scale protests we are seeing on our streets will have some kind of political impact. My sense is that a lot of people will be bewildered by much of it. If Labour tears itself apart over a relatively small war going on 2000 miles away, there's a danger they don't look like a serious party of government.

I don’t think the general public see this as a small war 2000 miles away. It’ll fade from view after a while, sure, but at the moment it’s big headline news and everyone is talking about it, including of course Sunak who just did his first sacking for months because someone called for a ceasefire.

Everyone keeps looking for the thing that will finally sink Labour. “This time they’re really going to be in trouble”. But the debate in Labour is pretty muted. This isn’t like the manoeuvres against Corbyn, or indeed the multiple rounds of internal fighting in the Tories while in power, which you’d think would make people first question whether they are a serious party of government.

Beibheirli_C

TimS said:

[snip!]
Everyone keeps looking for the thing that will finally sink Labour. ...

Ten or fifteen years in power usually finishes off a political party (unless it is the LDs for whom 5 years of coalition was enough for meltdown)

If you want to sink Labour, elect them into govt

RobD

kyf_100 said:

MaxPB said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

https://youtu.be/-hS_6enMdco?feature=shared&t=178

I hate it when people ask me to watch long videos, so if you can't be arsed, watch for one minute after 3 minutes in.

That will tell you all you need to know about how LGBT people are seen in Palestinian territories.

Cows for McDonalds, etc.

Posted by @williamglenn in the last thread:

This is what people like him mean by calling to "free Palestine":



Susan Abulhawa is a Palestinian diaspora activist:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Abulhawa

BlancheLivermore

BlancheLivermore said:

MaxPB said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

And women

I mean, don't women literally have a fractional worth to men in Islamic law? Like you need several women to equal one man as a witness, and all sorts of shit like that?

HYUFD

Beibheirli_C said:

HYUFD said:

Beibheirli_C said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

kyf_100 said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

I think the problem is that islam is a political ideology in some parts as much as a religious one. I am afraid of radical islam for the same reason I am afraid of fascism, and for much the same reason. I've no such fear of Christians or Zoroastrians.

Where we in the west have made our bloomer, is in trying to be tolerant and diverse to all religions, which is admirable, without acknowledging the political aspects and tenents of radical Islam. What is happening at the moment is not about religion, it is about fascism. We believe fascism looks like Herr Flick in his dark uniform and leather coat. Unfortunately it takes other forms.

In a secular society then being tolerant and diverse to all religions is entirely reasonable, since if society is secular people can choose their own religion (or none) and it doesn't affect anyone else.

The clash of cultures comes when people oppose secularism and want their faith imposed by force as it is the "word of Yahweh/God/Allah/Buddha/FSM" himself.

Whether that be radical Islamists, radical Christians, radical Buddhist/Jews/Hindus/Vegans/whatever anyone who tries to impose their fundamentalism onto others is a problem.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out in the USA. Apparently the new Speaker they elected is something of a fundamentalist himself.

He is a Southern Baptists but then that is the largest Protestant denomination in the USA, hardly on the fringes

Anti-gay, anti-trans, anti-democracy, anti-womens' health, pro-gun, pro-theocracy...

Oh yes, he's definitely a moderate. Not!

He is personally anti gay marriage and pro life, so what, many religious people are including the Pope, not just Baptists, even the Tories are hardly pro trans at the moment, gun rights are protected under the US constitution.

He has hardly advocated abolishing democracy either, he was elected himself to his position and his seat

Nigelb

HYUFD said:

Beibheirli_C said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

kyf_100 said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

I think the problem is that islam is a political ideology in some parts as much as a religious one. I am afraid of radical islam for the same reason I am afraid of fascism, and for much the same reason. I've no such fear of Christians or Zoroastrians.

Where we in the west have made our bloomer, is in trying to be tolerant and diverse to all religions, which is admirable, without acknowledging the political aspects and tenents of radical Islam. What is happening at the moment is not about religion, it is about fascism. We believe fascism looks like Herr Flick in his dark uniform and leather coat. Unfortunately it takes other forms.

In a secular society then being tolerant and diverse to all religions is entirely reasonable, since if society is secular people can choose their own religion (or none) and it doesn't affect anyone else.

The clash of cultures comes when people oppose secularism and want their faith imposed by force as it is the "word of Yahweh/God/Allah/Buddha/FSM" himself.

Whether that be radical Islamists, radical Christians, radical Buddhist/Jews/Hindus/Vegans/whatever anyone who tries to impose their fundamentalism onto others is a problem.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out in the USA. Apparently the new Speaker they elected is something of a fundamentalist himself.

He is a Southern Baptists but then that is the largest Protestant denomination in the USA, hardly on the fringes

On the fringes of reason.

Apparently the mass shooting problem is entirely down to sexual permissiveness. Nothing to do with actual guns.

HYUFD

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

kyf_100 said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

I think the problem is that islam is a political ideology in some parts as much as a religious one. I am afraid of radical islam for the same reason I am afraid of fascism, and for much the same reason. I've no such fear of Christians or Zoroastrians.

Where we in the west have made our bloomer, is in trying to be tolerant and diverse to all religions, which is admirable, without acknowledging the political aspects and tenents of radical Islam. What is happening at the moment is not about religion, it is about fascism. We believe fascism looks like Herr Flick in his dark uniform and leather coat. Unfortunately it takes other forms.

In a secular society then being tolerant and diverse to all religions is entirely reasonable, since if society is secular people can choose their own religion (or none) and it doesn't affect anyone else.

The clash of cultures comes when people oppose secularism and want their faith imposed by force as it is the "word of Yahweh/God/Allah/Buddha/FSM" himself.

Whether that be radical Islamists, radical Christians, radical Buddhist/Jews/Hindus/Vegans/whatever anyone who tries to impose their fundamentalism onto others is a problem.

The National Secular Society opposes religious schools and wants to close them all

Interesting you replied like that. Nobody mentioned state subsidy for religous sects' indoctrination of children till you did.

Now you mention it, about time we closed down all sectarian schooling on council tax or central government money.

You also one of the secular fundamentalists I see, denying religious parents (who are also taxpayers who fund state education) the right to choose the schools they want for their children

Beibheirli_C

BlancheLivermore said:

BlancheLivermore said:

MaxPB said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

And women

I mean, don't women literally have a fractional worth to men in Islamic law? Like you need several women to equal one man as a witness, and all sorts of shit like that?

Apparently so. In many respects their worth is deemed to be ¼ of that of a man.

Why any woman would want to be a muslim is beyond me. Seriously. Why would you willingly subordinate yourself to that attitude?

Beibheirli_C

HYUFD said:

Beibheirli_C said:

HYUFD said:

Beibheirli_C said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

kyf_100 said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

I think the problem is that islam is a political ideology in some parts as much as a religious one. I am afraid of radical islam for the same reason I am afraid of fascism, and for much the same reason. I've no such fear of Christians or Zoroastrians.

Where we in the west have made our bloomer, is in trying to be tolerant and diverse to all religions, which is admirable, without acknowledging the political aspects and tenents of radical Islam. What is happening at the moment is not about religion, it is about fascism. We believe fascism looks like Herr Flick in his dark uniform and leather coat. Unfortunately it takes other forms.

In a secular society then being tolerant and diverse to all religions is entirely reasonable, since if society is secular people can choose their own religion (or none) and it doesn't affect anyone else.

The clash of cultures comes when people oppose secularism and want their faith imposed by force as it is the "word of Yahweh/God/Allah/Buddha/FSM" himself.

Whether that be radical Islamists, radical Christians, radical Buddhist/Jews/Hindus/Vegans/whatever anyone who tries to impose their fundamentalism onto others is a problem.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out in the USA. Apparently the new Speaker they elected is something of a fundamentalist himself.

He is a Southern Baptists but then that is the largest Protestant denomination in the USA, hardly on the fringes

Anti-gay, anti-trans, anti-democracy, anti-womens' health, pro-gun, pro-theocracy...

Oh yes, he's definitely a moderate. Not!

He is personally anti gay marriage and pro life, so what, many religious people are including the Pope, not just Baptists, even the Tories are hardly pro trans at the moment, gun rights are protected under the US constitution.

He has hardly advocated abolishing democracy either, he was elected himself to his position and his seat

He is an election denier and is on record for saying that America's constitution prevents it being a democracy.

I honestly think you would excuse any right-wing extremist.

Nigelb

HYUFD said:

Beibheirli_C said:

HYUFD said:

Beibheirli_C said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

kyf_100 said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

I think the problem is that islam is a political ideology in some parts as much as a religious one. I am afraid of radical islam for the same reason I am afraid of fascism, and for much the same reason. I've no such fear of Christians or Zoroastrians.

Where we in the west have made our bloomer, is in trying to be tolerant and diverse to all religions, which is admirable, without acknowledging the political aspects and tenents of radical Islam. What is happening at the moment is not about religion, it is about fascism. We believe fascism looks like Herr Flick in his dark uniform and leather coat. Unfortunately it takes other forms.

In a secular society then being tolerant and diverse to all religions is entirely reasonable, since if society is secular people can choose their own religion (or none) and it doesn't affect anyone else.

The clash of cultures comes when people oppose secularism and want their faith imposed by force as it is the "word of Yahweh/God/Allah/Buddha/FSM" himself.

Whether that be radical Islamists, radical Christians, radical Buddhist/Jews/Hindus/Vegans/whatever anyone who tries to impose their fundamentalism onto others is a problem.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out in the USA. Apparently the new Speaker they elected is something of a fundamentalist himself.

He is a Southern Baptists but then that is the largest Protestant denomination in the USA, hardly on the fringes

Anti-gay, anti-trans, anti-democracy, anti-womens' health, pro-gun, pro-theocracy...

Oh yes, he's definitely a moderate. Not!

He is personally anti gay marriage and pro life, so what, many religious people are including the Pope, not just Baptists, even the Tories are hardly pro trans at the moment, gun rights are protected under the US constitution.

He has hardly advocated abolishing democracy either, he was elected himself to his position and his seat

Honest as the day is long.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Johnson_(Louisiana_politician)
...On November 17, 2020, Johnson said: "You know the allegations about these voting machines, some of them being rigged with this software by Dominion, there's a lot of merit to that. And when the president says the election was rigged, that's what he's talking about. The fix was in. [...] a software system that is used all around the country that is suspect because it came from Hugo Chávez's Venezuela".[83][84][85][86] By October 2022, Johnson said that he had never supported claims that there was massive fraud in the 2020 election.[87]

In December 2020, Johnson led an effort in which 126 Republican U.S. representatives signed an amicus brief in support of Texas v. Pennsylvania,[85][88][89] a lawsuit filed at the United States Supreme Court contesting the results of the 2020 presidential election.[90] The Supreme Court declined to hear the case on the basis that Texas lacked standing under Article III of the Constitution to challenge the results of an election held by another state.[91][92][93]

During the January 2021 United States Electoral College vote count, Johnson was one of 120 U.S. representatives who objected to certifying the 2020 presidential election results from both Arizona and Pennsylvania, while another 19 U.S. representatives objected for one of these states.[94] The New York Times called Johnson "the most important architect of the Electoral College objections" because he had argued to reject the results based on the argument of "constitutional infirmity" and persuaded "about three-quarters" of the objectors to use that rationale...

Nigelb

Korea to establish roadmap for Mars exploration
https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=362171

pigeon

MaxPB said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

Yep. Many of the supposedly great religions detest us, but Islam definitely wins first prize in the gay persecution and slaughter contest, and by a tidy margin.

At this point we must remember that not only is Gaza ruled by Hamas, but a very large fraction of the people there actually voted for the fuckers. They like and approve of Hamas. They think they've got the right ideas.

One feels that one ought to be sympathetic to the predicament in which the Gazans now find themselves, but it's hard to care much about people that think you belong in Hell, and would rejoice at sending you there as soon as possible given half a chance.

Foxy

Beibheirli_C said:

BlancheLivermore said:

BlancheLivermore said:

MaxPB said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

And women

I mean, don't women literally have a fractional worth to men in Islamic law? Like you need several women to equal one man as a witness, and all sorts of shit like that?

Apparently so. In many respects their worth is deemed to be ¼ of that of a man.

Why any woman would want to be a muslim is beyond me. Seriously. Why would you willingly subordinate yourself to that attitude?

And yet there are a fair number of female Muslim converts, and not all as erratic as Sinead O'connor. Similarly I know a fair number of westernised Muslim families where a daughter adopts the Niqab to her parents horror.

A lot of religions are systemically misogynistic, homophobic and oppressive. Indeed Catholicism and Orthodox Judaism are in the frame too.

Some people just like a clear set of instructions on how to live, imposed from above. Not everyone can cope with freedom, and some people feel so threatened by freedom that they want to kill it.

It isn't just an Islamist issue. We have had the same here in the past.

Sunil_Prasannan

BlancheLivermore said:

BlancheLivermore said:

MaxPB said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

And women

I mean, don't women literally have a fractional worth to men in Islamic law? Like you need several women to equal one man as a witness, and all sorts of shit like that?

All religions are sexist to varying degrees.

Beibheirli_C

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

kyf_100 said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

I think the problem is that islam is a political ideology in some parts as much as a religious one. I am afraid of radical islam for the same reason I am afraid of fascism, and for much the same reason. I've no such fear of Christians or Zoroastrians.

Where we in the west have made our bloomer, is in trying to be tolerant and diverse to all religions, which is admirable, without acknowledging the political aspects and tenents of radical Islam. What is happening at the moment is not about religion, it is about fascism. We believe fascism looks like Herr Flick in his dark uniform and leather coat. Unfortunately it takes other forms.

In a secular society then being tolerant and diverse to all religions is entirely reasonable, since if society is secular people can choose their own religion (or none) and it doesn't affect anyone else.

The clash of cultures comes when people oppose secularism and want their faith imposed by force as it is the "word of Yahweh/God/Allah/Buddha/FSM" himself.

Whether that be radical Islamists, radical Christians, radical Buddhist/Jews/Hindus/Vegans/whatever anyone who tries to impose their fundamentalism onto others is a problem.

The National Secular Society opposes religious schools and wants to close them all

Interesting you replied like that. Nobody mentioned state subsidy for religous sects' indoctrination of children till you did.

Now you mention it, about time we closed down all sectarian schooling on council tax or central government money.

You also one of the secular fundamentalists I see, denying religious parents (who are also taxpayers who fund state education) the right to choose the schools they want for their children

Religious education is a form of indoctrination where a set of unproveable statements are presented as facts and combined with threatened punishments for disbelief (like burning in hellfire forever) or for some religions, murder or torture or both probably followed by hellfire in the afterlife.

Ruling your "flock" through coercion and fear. And this is supposed to be moral? Admirable?

Make all schools secular. The parents can still choose which school they like, but none of them should be offering mental torture as an option.

Sunil_Prasannan

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

kyf_100 said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

I think the problem is that islam is a political ideology in some parts as much as a religious one. I am afraid of radical islam for the same reason I am afraid of fascism, and for much the same reason. I've no such fear of Christians or Zoroastrians.

Where we in the west have made our bloomer, is in trying to be tolerant and diverse to all religions, which is admirable, without acknowledging the political aspects and tenents of radical Islam. What is happening at the moment is not about religion, it is about fascism. We believe fascism looks like Herr Flick in his dark uniform and leather coat. Unfortunately it takes other forms.

In a secular society then being tolerant and diverse to all religions is entirely reasonable, since if society is secular people can choose their own religion (or none) and it doesn't affect anyone else.

The clash of cultures comes when people oppose secularism and want their faith imposed by force as it is the "word of Yahweh/God/Allah/Buddha/FSM" himself.

Whether that be radical Islamists, radical Christians, radical Buddhist/Jews/Hindus/Vegans/whatever anyone who tries to impose their fundamentalism onto others is a problem.

The National Secular Society opposes religious schools and wants to close them all

Interesting you replied like that. Nobody mentioned state subsidy for religous sects' indoctrination of children till you did.

Now you mention it, about time we closed down all sectarian schooling on council tax or central government money.

You also one of the secular fundamentalists I see, denying religious parents (who are also taxpayers who fund state education) the right to choose the schools they want for their children

God doesn't exist. Or else They would have solved the problems of the "Holy" Land centuries ago!

rottenborough

FrankBooth said:

At some point we are going to have to assess whether the large scale protests we are seeing on our streets will have some kind of political impact. My sense is that a lot of people will be bewildered by much of it. If Labour tears itself apart over a relatively small war going on 2000 miles away, there's a danger they don't look like a serious party of government.

It is certainly an event that Sir K could well do without at this stage.

Foxy

Sunil_Prasannan said:

BlancheLivermore said:

BlancheLivermore said:

MaxPB said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

And women

I mean, don't women literally have a fractional worth to men in Islamic law? Like you need several women to equal one man as a witness, and all sorts of shit like that?

All religions are sexist to varying degrees.

That's just because organised religion is an expression and interpretation by a society, and society has generally been sexist, homophobic and intolerant over the course of human history.

Religion is a human social construct though, and as we progress it is possible to reinvent it.

Beibheirli_C

Foxy said:

Beibheirli_C said:

BlancheLivermore said:

BlancheLivermore said:

MaxPB said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

And women

I mean, don't women literally have a fractional worth to men in Islamic law? Like you need several women to equal one man as a witness, and all sorts of shit like that?

Apparently so. In many respects their worth is deemed to be ¼ of that of a man.

Why any woman would want to be a muslim is beyond me. Seriously. Why would you willingly subordinate yourself to that attitude?

And yet there are a fair number of female Muslim converts, and not all as erratic as Sinead O'connor. Similarly I know a fair number of westernised Muslim families where a daughter adopts the Niqab to her parents horror.

A lot of religions are systemically misogynistic, homophobic and oppressive. Indeed Catholicism and Orthodox Judaism are in the frame too.

Some people just like a clear set of instructions on how to live, imposed from above. Not everyone can cope with freedom, and some people feel so threatened by freedom that they want to kill it.

It isn't just an Islamist issue. We have had the same here in the past.

Yes we did back in the 1400s

FeersumEnjineeya

Meanwhile we have Natanyahu citing the Bible when justifying his continuing devastation of Gaza. Religion, eh?

HYUFD

Foxy said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

BlancheLivermore said:

BlancheLivermore said:

MaxPB said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

And women

I mean, don't women literally have a fractional worth to men in Islamic law? Like you need several women to equal one man as a witness, and all sorts of shit like that?

All religions are sexist to varying degrees.

That's just because organised religion is an expression and interpretation by a society, and society has generally been sexist, homophobic and intolerant over the course of human history.

Religion is a human social construct though, and as we progress it is possible to reinvent it.

You can't reinvent the Bible and Koran, either you believe in their teachings or you don't

BlancheLivermore

Foxy said:

Beibheirli_C said:

BlancheLivermore said:

BlancheLivermore said:

MaxPB said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

And women

I mean, don't women literally have a fractional worth to men in Islamic law? Like you need several women to equal one man as a witness, and all sorts of shit like that?

Apparently so. In many respects their worth is deemed to be ¼ of that of a man.

Why any woman would want to be a muslim is beyond me. Seriously. Why would you willingly subordinate yourself to that attitude?

And yet there are a fair number of female Muslim converts, and not all as erratic as Sinead O'connor. Similarly I know a fair number of westernised Muslim families where a daughter adopts the Niqab to her parents horror.

A lot of religions are systemically misogynistic, homophobic and oppressive. Indeed Catholicism and Orthodox Judaism are in the frame too.

Some people just like a clear set of instructions on how to live, imposed from above. Not everyone can cope with freedom, and some people feel so threatened by freedom that they want to kill it.

It isn't just an Islamist issue. We have had the same here in the past.

So you’re cool with the women quarter value, so long as some subjugated women don’t complain too much?

HYUFD

Nigelb said:

HYUFD said:

Beibheirli_C said:

HYUFD said:

Beibheirli_C said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

kyf_100 said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

I think the problem is that islam is a political ideology in some parts as much as a religious one. I am afraid of radical islam for the same reason I am afraid of fascism, and for much the same reason. I've no such fear of Christians or Zoroastrians.

Where we in the west have made our bloomer, is in trying to be tolerant and diverse to all religions, which is admirable, without acknowledging the political aspects and tenents of radical Islam. What is happening at the moment is not about religion, it is about fascism. We believe fascism looks like Herr Flick in his dark uniform and leather coat. Unfortunately it takes other forms.

In a secular society then being tolerant and diverse to all religions is entirely reasonable, since if society is secular people can choose their own religion (or none) and it doesn't affect anyone else.

The clash of cultures comes when people oppose secularism and want their faith imposed by force as it is the "word of Yahweh/God/Allah/Buddha/FSM" himself.

Whether that be radical Islamists, radical Christians, radical Buddhist/Jews/Hindus/Vegans/whatever anyone who tries to impose their fundamentalism onto others is a problem.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out in the USA. Apparently the new Speaker they elected is something of a fundamentalist himself.

He is a Southern Baptists but then that is the largest Protestant denomination in the USA, hardly on the fringes

Anti-gay, anti-trans, anti-democracy, anti-womens' health, pro-gun, pro-theocracy...

Oh yes, he's definitely a moderate. Not!

He is personally anti gay marriage and pro life, so what, many religious people are including the Pope, not just Baptists, even the Tories are hardly pro trans at the moment, gun rights are protected under the US constitution.

He has hardly advocated abolishing democracy either, he was elected himself to his position and his seat

Honest as the day is long.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Johnson_(Louisiana_politician)
...On November 17, 2020, Johnson said: "You know the allegations about these voting machines, some of them being rigged with this software by Dominion, there's a lot of merit to that. And when the president says the election was rigged, that's what he's talking about. The fix was in. [...] a software system that is used all around the country that is suspect because it came from Hugo Chávez's Venezuela".[83][84][85][86] By October 2022, Johnson said that he had never supported claims that there was massive fraud in the 2020 election.[87]

In December 2020, Johnson led an effort in which 126 Republican U.S. representatives signed an amicus brief in support of Texas v. Pennsylvania,[85][88][89] a lawsuit filed at the United States Supreme Court contesting the results of the 2020 presidential election.[90] The Supreme Court declined to hear the case on the basis that Texas lacked standing under Article III of the Constitution to challenge the results of an election held by another state.[91][92][93]

During the January 2021 United States Electoral College vote count, Johnson was one of 120 U.S. representatives who objected to certifying the 2020 presidential election results from both Arizona and Pennsylvania, while another 19 U.S. representatives objected for one of these states.[94] The New York Times called Johnson "the most important architect of the Electoral College objections" because he had argued to reject the results based on the argument of "constitutional infirmity" and persuaded "about three-quarters" of the objectors to use that rationale...

Yes he contested the results, which was a perfectly legal and constitutional thing to do until the results of the election were certified by Congress

Beibheirli_C

Foxy said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

BlancheLivermore said:

BlancheLivermore said:

MaxPB said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

And women

I mean, don't women literally have a fractional worth to men in Islamic law? Like you need several women to equal one man as a witness, and all sorts of shit like that?

All religions are sexist to varying degrees.

That's just because organised religion is an expression and interpretation by a society, and society has generally been sexist, homophobic and intolerant over the course of human history.

Religion is a human social construct though, and as we progress it is possible to reinvent it.

We are going to disagree on this one. I see nothing good about organised religion.

I will concede that I have no objection to an adult picking a religion or spiritual belief but it certainly should not be indoctrinated into those too young to object to what is being done to them.

jamesdoyle

HYUFD said:

Beibheirli_C said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

kyf_100 said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

I think the problem is that islam is a political ideology in some parts as much as a religious one. I am afraid of radical islam for the same reason I am afraid of fascism, and for much the same reason. I've no such fear of Christians or Zoroastrians.

Where we in the west have made our bloomer, is in trying to be tolerant and diverse to all religions, which is admirable, without acknowledging the political aspects and tenents of radical Islam. What is happening at the moment is not about religion, it is about fascism. We believe fascism looks like Herr Flick in his dark uniform and leather coat. Unfortunately it takes other forms.

In a secular society then being tolerant and diverse to all religions is entirely reasonable, since if society is secular people can choose their own religion (or none) and it doesn't affect anyone else.

The clash of cultures comes when people oppose secularism and want their faith imposed by force as it is the "word of Yahweh/God/Allah/Buddha/FSM" himself.

Whether that be radical Islamists, radical Christians, radical Buddhist/Jews/Hindus/Vegans/whatever anyone who tries to impose their fundamentalism onto others is a problem.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out in the USA. Apparently the new Speaker they elected is something of a fundamentalist himself.

He is a Southern Baptists but then that is the largest Protestant denomination in the USA, hardly on the fringes

He's a Christian Nationalist: he believes the USA was founded as, and should return to being, a Christian-only country. That is on the fringes.

rottenborough

Brace...


Julian Jessop
@julianHjessop
·
10h
💥 UK broad money is collapsing, which is consistent with a severe #recession and/or much sharper falls in #inflation than almost anyone is expecting... 👇

https://twitter.com/julianHjessop/status/1718960071080612256

Ghedebrav

rottenborough said:

FrankBooth said:

At some point we are going to have to assess whether the large scale protests we are seeing on our streets will have some kind of political impact. My sense is that a lot of people will be bewildered by much of it. If Labour tears itself apart over a relatively small war going on 2000 miles away, there's a danger they don't look like a serious party of government.

It is certainly an event that Sir K could well do without at this stage.

Probably although outside of the decent-sized minority of activists who care massively about Israel/Palestine, most people are fairly ambivalent and it’s not really an issue they’d vote on. The risk is that Labour start to tie themselves in knots over it, given their recent history with antisemitism, and they look a bit less like the government-in-waiting as a result.

Fwiw I think Andy McDonald’s suspension is a bit OTT in the full context of his words.

Tbh I’m trying not to engage on this issue too much, but in the context of domestic politics I think it is fairly minor.

Foxy

Beibheirli_C said:

Foxy said:

Beibheirli_C said:

BlancheLivermore said:

BlancheLivermore said:

MaxPB said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

And women

I mean, don't women literally have a fractional worth to men in Islamic law? Like you need several women to equal one man as a witness, and all sorts of shit like that?

Apparently so. In many respects their worth is deemed to be ¼ of that of a man.

Why any woman would want to be a muslim is beyond me. Seriously. Why would you willingly subordinate yourself to that attitude?

And yet there are a fair number of female Muslim converts, and not all as erratic as Sinead O'connor. Similarly I know a fair number of westernised Muslim families where a daughter adopts the Niqab to her parents horror.

A lot of religions are systemically misogynistic, homophobic and oppressive. Indeed Catholicism and Orthodox Judaism are in the frame too.

Some people just like a clear set of instructions on how to live, imposed from above. Not everyone can cope with freedom, and some people feel so threatened by freedom that they want to kill it.

It isn't just an Islamist issue. We have had the same here in the past.

Yes we did back in the 1400s

More recent than that. Male homosexuality was still illegal here well into my lifetime.

1967 in England and Wales, 1980 for Scotland and 1982 in Northern Ireland, 1993 in RoI.

Malmesbury

BlancheLivermore said:

Foxy said:

Beibheirli_C said:

BlancheLivermore said:

BlancheLivermore said:

MaxPB said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

And women

I mean, don't women literally have a fractional worth to men in Islamic law? Like you need several women to equal one man as a witness, and all sorts of shit like that?

Apparently so. In many respects their worth is deemed to be ¼ of that of a man.

Why any woman would want to be a muslim is beyond me. Seriously. Why would you willingly subordinate yourself to that attitude?

And yet there are a fair number of female Muslim converts, and not all as erratic as Sinead O'connor. Similarly I know a fair number of westernised Muslim families where a daughter adopts the Niqab to her parents horror.

A lot of religions are systemically misogynistic, homophobic and oppressive. Indeed Catholicism and Orthodox Judaism are in the frame too.

Some people just like a clear set of instructions on how to live, imposed from above. Not everyone can cope with freedom, and some people feel so threatened by freedom that they want to kill it.

It isn't just an Islamist issue. We have had the same here in the past.

So you’re cool with the women quarter value, so long as some subjugated women don’t complain too much?

@Foxy is absolutely right here - some people wanted to be subjugated. Given a rigid set of rules to live by. Order. Told they are better than everyone else.

It’s a very old tune. Every now and then, someone does a variation on the beat…



Quite beautiful. All that lovely order. So tidy.

Foxy

BlancheLivermore said:

Foxy said:

Beibheirli_C said:

BlancheLivermore said:

BlancheLivermore said:

MaxPB said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

And women

I mean, don't women literally have a fractional worth to men in Islamic law? Like you need several women to equal one man as a witness, and all sorts of shit like that?

Apparently so. In many respects their worth is deemed to be ¼ of that of a man.

Why any woman would want to be a muslim is beyond me. Seriously. Why would you willingly subordinate yourself to that attitude?

And yet there are a fair number of female Muslim converts, and not all as erratic as Sinead O'connor. Similarly I know a fair number of westernised Muslim families where a daughter adopts the Niqab to her parents horror.

A lot of religions are systemically misogynistic, homophobic and oppressive. Indeed Catholicism and Orthodox Judaism are in the frame too.

Some people just like a clear set of instructions on how to live, imposed from above. Not everyone can cope with freedom, and some people feel so threatened by freedom that they want to kill it.

It isn't just an Islamist issue. We have had the same here in the past.

So you’re cool with the women quarter value, so long as some subjugated women don’t complain too much?

No. I am not a Islamist.

The paradox is that some women do choose to be, and I was exploring the reasons why.

HYUFD

Beibheirli_C said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

kyf_100 said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

I think the problem is that islam is a political ideology in some parts as much as a religious one. I am afraid of radical islam for the same reason I am afraid of fascism, and for much the same reason. I've no such fear of Christians or Zoroastrians.

Where we in the west have made our bloomer, is in trying to be tolerant and diverse to all religions, which is admirable, without acknowledging the political aspects and tenents of radical Islam. What is happening at the moment is not about religion, it is about fascism. We believe fascism looks like Herr Flick in his dark uniform and leather coat. Unfortunately it takes other forms.

In a secular society then being tolerant and diverse to all religions is entirely reasonable, since if society is secular people can choose their own religion (or none) and it doesn't affect anyone else.

The clash of cultures comes when people oppose secularism and want their faith imposed by force as it is the "word of Yahweh/God/Allah/Buddha/FSM" himself.

Whether that be radical Islamists, radical Christians, radical Buddhist/Jews/Hindus/Vegans/whatever anyone who tries to impose their fundamentalism onto others is a problem.

The National Secular Society opposes religious schools and wants to close them all

Interesting you replied like that. Nobody mentioned state subsidy for religous sects' indoctrination of children till you did.

Now you mention it, about time we closed down all sectarian schooling on council tax or central government money.

You also one of the secular fundamentalists I see, denying religious parents (who are also taxpayers who fund state education) the right to choose the schools they want for their children

Religious education is a form of indoctrination where a set of unproveable statements are presented as facts and combined with threatened punishments for disbelief (like burning in hellfire forever) or for some religions, murder or torture or both probably followed by hellfire in the afterlife.

Ruling your "flock" through coercion and fear. And this is supposed to be moral? Admirable?

Make all schools secular. The parents can still choose which school they like, but none of them should be offering mental torture as an option.

As I said, you are a secular fundamentalist extremist.

You want to close all religious schools, despite most getting above average results and deny taxpaying religious parents the freedom to send their children to religious schools.

And the idea the average C of E primary is telling all its pupils all day long they will burn in hell forever is laughable

HYUFD

jamesdoyle said:

HYUFD said:

Beibheirli_C said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

kyf_100 said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

I think the problem is that islam is a political ideology in some parts as much as a religious one. I am afraid of radical islam for the same reason I am afraid of fascism, and for much the same reason. I've no such fear of Christians or Zoroastrians.

Where we in the west have made our bloomer, is in trying to be tolerant and diverse to all religions, which is admirable, without acknowledging the political aspects and tenents of radical Islam. What is happening at the moment is not about religion, it is about fascism. We believe fascism looks like Herr Flick in his dark uniform and leather coat. Unfortunately it takes other forms.

In a secular society then being tolerant and diverse to all religions is entirely reasonable, since if society is secular people can choose their own religion (or none) and it doesn't affect anyone else.

The clash of cultures comes when people oppose secularism and want their faith imposed by force as it is the "word of Yahweh/God/Allah/Buddha/FSM" himself.

Whether that be radical Islamists, radical Christians, radical Buddhist/Jews/Hindus/Vegans/whatever anyone who tries to impose their fundamentalism onto others is a problem.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out in the USA. Apparently the new Speaker they elected is something of a fundamentalist himself.

He is a Southern Baptists but then that is the largest Protestant denomination in the USA, hardly on the fringes

He's a Christian Nationalist: he believes the USA was founded as, and should return to being, a Christian-only country. That is on the fringes.

Well when the alternative from the secular extremists like Beibheirli is to drive out religion from Christian heritage nations he may have a point.

The founding fathers also intended the USA to be a Christian nation just with no one denomination predominant

Malmesbury

Sunil_Prasannan said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

kyf_100 said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

I think the problem is that islam is a political ideology in some parts as much as a religious one. I am afraid of radical islam for the same reason I am afraid of fascism, and for much the same reason. I've no such fear of Christians or Zoroastrians.

Where we in the west have made our bloomer, is in trying to be tolerant and diverse to all religions, which is admirable, without acknowledging the political aspects and tenents of radical Islam. What is happening at the moment is not about religion, it is about fascism. We believe fascism looks like Herr Flick in his dark uniform and leather coat. Unfortunately it takes other forms.

In a secular society then being tolerant and diverse to all religions is entirely reasonable, since if society is secular people can choose their own religion (or none) and it doesn't affect anyone else.

The clash of cultures comes when people oppose secularism and want their faith imposed by force as it is the "word of Yahweh/God/Allah/Buddha/FSM" himself.

Whether that be radical Islamists, radical Christians, radical Buddhist/Jews/Hindus/Vegans/whatever anyone who tries to impose their fundamentalism onto others is a problem.

The National Secular Society opposes religious schools and wants to close them all

Interesting you replied like that. Nobody mentioned state subsidy for religous sects' indoctrination of children till you did.

Now you mention it, about time we closed down all sectarian schooling on council tax or central government money.

You also one of the secular fundamentalists I see, denying religious parents (who are also taxpayers who fund state education) the right to choose the schools they want for their children

God doesn't exist. Or else They would have solved the problems of the "Holy" Land centuries ago!

You are ignoring the possibility that God wants exactly what is happening. That’s the problem with a God who has had a mid life crisis.

Yeah, he says he gone hippy, mellowed after the kid etc. Maybe he just flipped?

Foxy

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

BlancheLivermore said:

BlancheLivermore said:

MaxPB said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

And women

I mean, don't women literally have a fractional worth to men in Islamic law? Like you need several women to equal one man as a witness, and all sorts of shit like that?

All religions are sexist to varying degrees.

That's just because organised religion is an expression and interpretation by a society, and society has generally been sexist, homophobic and intolerant over the course of human history.

Religion is a human social construct though, and as we progress it is possible to reinvent it.

You can't reinvent the Bible and Koran, either you believe in their teachings or you don't

Biblical literalism is not a requirement to be a Christian.

Foxy

FeersumEnjineeya said:

Meanwhile we have Natanyahu citing the Bible when justifying his continuing devastation of Gaza. Religion, eh?

I suspect he was quoting from the Torah, rather than the Bible!

HYUFD

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

BlancheLivermore said:

BlancheLivermore said:

MaxPB said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

And women

I mean, don't women literally have a fractional worth to men in Islamic law? Like you need several women to equal one man as a witness, and all sorts of shit like that?

All religions are sexist to varying degrees.

That's just because organised religion is an expression and interpretation by a society, and society has generally been sexist, homophobic and intolerant over the course of human history.

Religion is a human social construct though, and as we progress it is possible to reinvent it.

You can't reinvent the Bible and Koran, either you believe in their teachings or you don't

Biblical literalism is not a requirement to be a Christian.

Belief in its core tenets is

Foss

Foxy said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Foxy said:

Beibheirli_C said:

BlancheLivermore said:

BlancheLivermore said:

MaxPB said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

And women

I mean, don't women literally have a fractional worth to men in Islamic law? Like you need several women to equal one man as a witness, and all sorts of shit like that?

Apparently so. In many respects their worth is deemed to be ¼ of that of a man.

Why any woman would want to be a muslim is beyond me. Seriously. Why would you willingly subordinate yourself to that attitude?

And yet there are a fair number of female Muslim converts, and not all as erratic as Sinead O'connor. Similarly I know a fair number of westernised Muslim families where a daughter adopts the Niqab to her parents horror.

A lot of religions are systemically misogynistic, homophobic and oppressive. Indeed Catholicism and Orthodox Judaism are in the frame too.

Some people just like a clear set of instructions on how to live, imposed from above. Not everyone can cope with freedom, and some people feel so threatened by freedom that they want to kill it.

It isn't just an Islamist issue. We have had the same here in the past.

So you’re cool with the women quarter value, so long as some subjugated women don’t complain too much?

No. I am not a Islamist.

The paradox is that some women do choose to be, and I was exploring the reasons why.

There's always been a chunk of the population that hates themselves. Women opting into Islamism doesn't seem that far removed from alcoholism, drugs, radical body modification, cutting...

Beibheirli_C

HYUFD said:

Nigelb said:

HYUFD said:

Beibheirli_C said:

HYUFD said:

Beibheirli_C said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

kyf_100 said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

I think the problem is that islam is a political ideology in some parts as much as a religious one. I am afraid of radical islam for the same reason I am afraid of fascism, and for much the same reason. I've no such fear of Christians or Zoroastrians.

Where we in the west have made our bloomer, is in trying to be tolerant and diverse to all religions, which is admirable, without acknowledging the political aspects and tenents of radical Islam. What is happening at the moment is not about religion, it is about fascism. We believe fascism looks like Herr Flick in his dark uniform and leather coat. Unfortunately it takes other forms.

In a secular society then being tolerant and diverse to all religions is entirely reasonable, since if society is secular people can choose their own religion (or none) and it doesn't affect anyone else.

The clash of cultures comes when people oppose secularism and want their faith imposed by force as it is the "word of Yahweh/God/Allah/Buddha/FSM" himself.

Whether that be radical Islamists, radical Christians, radical Buddhist/Jews/Hindus/Vegans/whatever anyone who tries to impose their fundamentalism onto others is a problem.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out in the USA. Apparently the new Speaker they elected is something of a fundamentalist himself.

He is a Southern Baptists but then that is the largest Protestant denomination in the USA, hardly on the fringes

Anti-gay, anti-trans, anti-democracy, anti-womens' health, pro-gun, pro-theocracy...

Oh yes, he's definitely a moderate. Not!

He is personally anti gay marriage and pro life, so what, many religious people are including the Pope, not just Baptists, even the Tories are hardly pro trans at the moment, gun rights are protected under the US constitution.

He has hardly advocated abolishing democracy either, he was elected himself to his position and his seat

Honest as the day is long.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Johnson_(Louisiana_politician)
...On November 17, 2020, Johnson said: "You know the allegations about these voting machines, some of them being rigged with this software by Dominion, there's a lot of merit to that. And when the president says the election was rigged, that's what he's talking about. The fix was in. [...] a software system that is used all around the country that is suspect because it came from Hugo Chávez's Venezuela".[83][84][85][86] By October 2022, Johnson said that he had never supported claims that there was massive fraud in the 2020 election.[87]

In December 2020, Johnson led an effort in which 126 Republican U.S. representatives signed an amicus brief in support of Texas v. Pennsylvania,[85][88][89] a lawsuit filed at the United States Supreme Court contesting the results of the 2020 presidential election.[90] The Supreme Court declined to hear the case on the basis that Texas lacked standing under Article III of the Constitution to challenge the results of an election held by another state.[91][92][93]

During the January 2021 United States Electoral College vote count, Johnson was one of 120 U.S. representatives who objected to certifying the 2020 presidential election results from both Arizona and Pennsylvania, while another 19 U.S. representatives objected for one of these states.[94] The New York Times called Johnson "the most important architect of the Electoral College objections" because he had argued to reject the results based on the argument of "constitutional infirmity" and persuaded "about three-quarters" of the objectors to use that rationale...

Yes he contested the results, which was a perfectly legal and constitutional thing to do until the results of the election were certified by Congress

And he then tried to subvert that certification. Wriggle all you want. You are supporting a nasty, despicable, totalitarian theocrat. Just because he wears a suit rather than jackboots does not make him pleasant, honest or even likeable.

---

House Speaker Mike Johnson played a key role in efforts to overturn the 2020 election

"Well before he was elected House speaker, Rep. Mike Johnson, R-La., played a key role in efforts by then-President Donald Trump and his allies to overturn Joe Biden’s electoral victory in the 2020 election.

Johnson, who was the GOP caucus vice chair and is an ally of Trump, led the amicus brief signed by more than 100 House Republicans in support of a Texas lawsuit seeking to invalidate the 2020 election results in four swing states Biden won: Georgia, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

- https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/mike-johnson-january-6-house-speaker-nominee-rcna122081

Foxy

rottenborough said:

FrankBooth said:

At some point we are going to have to assess whether the large scale protests we are seeing on our streets will have some kind of political impact. My sense is that a lot of people will be bewildered by much of it. If Labour tears itself apart over a relatively small war going on 2000 miles away, there's a danger they don't look like a serious party of government.

It is certainly an event that Sir K could well do without at this stage.

Well, it doesn't seem to have bothered the polling over the last 3 weeks.

ohnotnow

Malmesbury said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

kyf_100 said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

I think the problem is that islam is a political ideology in some parts as much as a religious one. I am afraid of radical islam for the same reason I am afraid of fascism, and for much the same reason. I've no such fear of Christians or Zoroastrians.

Where we in the west have made our bloomer, is in trying to be tolerant and diverse to all religions, which is admirable, without acknowledging the political aspects and tenents of radical Islam. What is happening at the moment is not about religion, it is about fascism. We believe fascism looks like Herr Flick in his dark uniform and leather coat. Unfortunately it takes other forms.

In a secular society then being tolerant and diverse to all religions is entirely reasonable, since if society is secular people can choose their own religion (or none) and it doesn't affect anyone else.

The clash of cultures comes when people oppose secularism and want their faith imposed by force as it is the "word of Yahweh/God/Allah/Buddha/FSM" himself.

Whether that be radical Islamists, radical Christians, radical Buddhist/Jews/Hindus/Vegans/whatever anyone who tries to impose their fundamentalism onto others is a problem.

The National Secular Society opposes religious schools and wants to close them all

Interesting you replied like that. Nobody mentioned state subsidy for religous sects' indoctrination of children till you did.

Now you mention it, about time we closed down all sectarian schooling on council tax or central government money.

You also one of the secular fundamentalists I see, denying religious parents (who are also taxpayers who fund state education) the right to choose the schools they want for their children

God doesn't exist. Or else They would have solved the problems of the "Holy" Land centuries ago!

You are ignoring the possibility that God wants exactly what is happening. That’s the problem with a God who has had a mid life crisis.

Yeah, he says he gone hippy, mellowed after the kid etc. Maybe he just flipped?

See also William Burroughs 'Consider the impact of a One God Universe':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESXW7_LUlmc

OnlyLivingBoy

Welcome back, Mike. I hope you are keeping well and make a full recovery.

BlancheLivermore

Foxy said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Foxy said:

Beibheirli_C said:

BlancheLivermore said:

BlancheLivermore said:

MaxPB said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

And women

I mean, don't women literally have a fractional worth to men in Islamic law? Like you need several women to equal one man as a witness, and all sorts of shit like that?

Apparently so. In many respects their worth is deemed to be ¼ of that of a man.

Why any woman would want to be a muslim is beyond me. Seriously. Why would you willingly subordinate yourself to that attitude?

And yet there are a fair number of female Muslim converts, and not all as erratic as Sinead O'connor. Similarly I know a fair number of westernised Muslim families where a daughter adopts the Niqab to her parents horror.

A lot of religions are systemically misogynistic, homophobic and oppressive. Indeed Catholicism and Orthodox Judaism are in the frame too.

Some people just like a clear set of instructions on how to live, imposed from above. Not everyone can cope with freedom, and some people feel so threatened by freedom that they want to kill it.

It isn't just an Islamist issue. We have had the same here in the past.

So you’re cool with the women quarter value, so long as some subjugated women don’t complain too much?

No. I am not a Islamist.

The paradox is that some women do choose to be, and I was exploring the reasons why.

Do you ever worry about your views being parallel to those of Islamists?

HYUFD

Beibheirli_C said:

HYUFD said:

Nigelb said:

HYUFD said:

Beibheirli_C said:

HYUFD said:

Beibheirli_C said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

kyf_100 said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

I think the problem is that islam is a political ideology in some parts as much as a religious one. I am afraid of radical islam for the same reason I am afraid of fascism, and for much the same reason. I've no such fear of Christians or Zoroastrians.

Where we in the west have made our bloomer, is in trying to be tolerant and diverse to all religions, which is admirable, without acknowledging the political aspects and tenents of radical Islam. What is happening at the moment is not about religion, it is about fascism. We believe fascism looks like Herr Flick in his dark uniform and leather coat. Unfortunately it takes other forms.

In a secular society then being tolerant and diverse to all religions is entirely reasonable, since if society is secular people can choose their own religion (or none) and it doesn't affect anyone else.

The clash of cultures comes when people oppose secularism and want their faith imposed by force as it is the "word of Yahweh/God/Allah/Buddha/FSM" himself.

Whether that be radical Islamists, radical Christians, radical Buddhist/Jews/Hindus/Vegans/whatever anyone who tries to impose their fundamentalism onto others is a problem.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out in the USA. Apparently the new Speaker they elected is something of a fundamentalist himself.

He is a Southern Baptists but then that is the largest Protestant denomination in the USA, hardly on the fringes

Anti-gay, anti-trans, anti-democracy, anti-womens' health, pro-gun, pro-theocracy...

Oh yes, he's definitely a moderate. Not!

He is personally anti gay marriage and pro life, so what, many religious people are including the Pope, not just Baptists, even the Tories are hardly pro trans at the moment, gun rights are protected under the US constitution.

He has hardly advocated abolishing democracy either, he was elected himself to his position and his seat

Honest as the day is long.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Johnson_(Louisiana_politician)
...On November 17, 2020, Johnson said: "You know the allegations about these voting machines, some of them being rigged with this software by Dominion, there's a lot of merit to that. And when the president says the election was rigged, that's what he's talking about. The fix was in. [...] a software system that is used all around the country that is suspect because it came from Hugo Chávez's Venezuela".[83][84][85][86] By October 2022, Johnson said that he had never supported claims that there was massive fraud in the 2020 election.[87]

In December 2020, Johnson led an effort in which 126 Republican U.S. representatives signed an amicus brief in support of Texas v. Pennsylvania,[85][88][89] a lawsuit filed at the United States Supreme Court contesting the results of the 2020 presidential election.[90] The Supreme Court declined to hear the case on the basis that Texas lacked standing under Article III of the Constitution to challenge the results of an election held by another state.[91][92][93]

During the January 2021 United States Electoral College vote count, Johnson was one of 120 U.S. representatives who objected to certifying the 2020 presidential election results from both Arizona and Pennsylvania, while another 19 U.S. representatives objected for one of these states.[94] The New York Times called Johnson "the most important architect of the Electoral College objections" because he had argued to reject the results based on the argument of "constitutional infirmity" and persuaded "about three-quarters" of the objectors to use that rationale...

Yes he contested the results, which was a perfectly legal and constitutional thing to do until the results of the election were certified by Congress

And he then tried to subvert that certification. Wriggle all you want. You are supporting a nasty, despicable, totalitarian theocrat. Just because he wears a suit rather than jackboots does not make him pleasant, honest or even likeable.

---

House Speaker Mike Johnson played a key role in efforts to overturn the 2020 election

"Well before he was elected House speaker, Rep. Mike Johnson, R-La., played a key role in efforts by then-President Donald Trump and his allies to overturn Joe Biden’s electoral victory in the 2020 election.

Johnson, who was the GOP caucus vice chair and is an ally of Trump, led the amicus brief signed by more than 100 House Republicans in support of a Texas lawsuit seeking to invalidate the 2020 election results in four swing states Biden won: Georgia, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

- https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/mike-johnson-january-6-house-speaker-nominee-rcna122081

And he was legally and constitutionally entitled to do so, as it was lodged in December 2020 well before Biden's election was confirmed by Congress

Foxy

Foss said:

Foxy said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Foxy said:

Beibheirli_C said:

BlancheLivermore said:

BlancheLivermore said:

MaxPB said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

And women

I mean, don't women literally have a fractional worth to men in Islamic law? Like you need several women to equal one man as a witness, and all sorts of shit like that?

Apparently so. In many respects their worth is deemed to be ¼ of that of a man.

Why any woman would want to be a muslim is beyond me. Seriously. Why would you willingly subordinate yourself to that attitude?

And yet there are a fair number of female Muslim converts, and not all as erratic as Sinead O'connor. Similarly I know a fair number of westernised Muslim families where a daughter adopts the Niqab to her parents horror.

A lot of religions are systemically misogynistic, homophobic and oppressive. Indeed Catholicism and Orthodox Judaism are in the frame too.

Some people just like a clear set of instructions on how to live, imposed from above. Not everyone can cope with freedom, and some people feel so threatened by freedom that they want to kill it.

It isn't just an Islamist issue. We have had the same here in the past.

So you’re cool with the women quarter value, so long as some subjugated women don’t complain too much?

No. I am not a Islamist.

The paradox is that some women do choose to be, and I was exploring the reasons why.

There's always been a chunk of the population that hates themselves. Women opting into Islamism doesn't seem that far removed from alcoholism, drugs, radical body modification, cutting...

So Muslim women are suffering false consciousness, and we know better what is good for them. I see.

Malmesbury

ohnotnow said:

Malmesbury said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

kyf_100 said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

I think the problem is that islam is a political ideology in some parts as much as a religious one. I am afraid of radical islam for the same reason I am afraid of fascism, and for much the same reason. I've no such fear of Christians or Zoroastrians.

Where we in the west have made our bloomer, is in trying to be tolerant and diverse to all religions, which is admirable, without acknowledging the political aspects and tenents of radical Islam. What is happening at the moment is not about religion, it is about fascism. We believe fascism looks like Herr Flick in his dark uniform and leather coat. Unfortunately it takes other forms.

In a secular society then being tolerant and diverse to all religions is entirely reasonable, since if society is secular people can choose their own religion (or none) and it doesn't affect anyone else.

The clash of cultures comes when people oppose secularism and want their faith imposed by force as it is the "word of Yahweh/God/Allah/Buddha/FSM" himself.

Whether that be radical Islamists, radical Christians, radical Buddhist/Jews/Hindus/Vegans/whatever anyone who tries to impose their fundamentalism onto others is a problem.

The National Secular Society opposes religious schools and wants to close them all

Interesting you replied like that. Nobody mentioned state subsidy for religous sects' indoctrination of children till you did.

Now you mention it, about time we closed down all sectarian schooling on council tax or central government money.

You also one of the secular fundamentalists I see, denying religious parents (who are also taxpayers who fund state education) the right to choose the schools they want for their children

God doesn't exist. Or else They would have solved the problems of the "Holy" Land centuries ago!

You are ignoring the possibility that God wants exactly what is happening. That’s the problem with a God who has had a mid life crisis.

Yeah, he says he gone hippy, mellowed after the kid etc. Maybe he just flipped?

See also William Burroughs 'Consider the impact of a One God Universe':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESXW7_LUlmc

I prefer my gods. They aren’t mellow, in the slightest. But they are very, very honest.

Foxy

BlancheLivermore said:

Foxy said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Foxy said:

Beibheirli_C said:

BlancheLivermore said:

BlancheLivermore said:

MaxPB said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

And women

I mean, don't women literally have a fractional worth to men in Islamic law? Like you need several women to equal one man as a witness, and all sorts of shit like that?

Apparently so. In many respects their worth is deemed to be ¼ of that of a man.

Why any woman would want to be a muslim is beyond me. Seriously. Why would you willingly subordinate yourself to that attitude?

And yet there are a fair number of female Muslim converts, and not all as erratic as Sinead O'connor. Similarly I know a fair number of westernised Muslim families where a daughter adopts the Niqab to her parents horror.

A lot of religions are systemically misogynistic, homophobic and oppressive. Indeed Catholicism and Orthodox Judaism are in the frame too.

Some people just like a clear set of instructions on how to live, imposed from above. Not everyone can cope with freedom, and some people feel so threatened by freedom that they want to kill it.

It isn't just an Islamist issue. We have had the same here in the past.

So you’re cool with the women quarter value, so long as some subjugated women don’t complain too much?

No. I am not a Islamist.

The paradox is that some women do choose to be, and I was exploring the reasons why.

Do you ever worry about your views being parallel to those of Islamists?

No, because they are not.

FrancisUrquhart

Discussion of religion, never ends well.... can't we get back to discussing what cliff richard calls artificial insemination will effect the jobs market....

Cyclefree

All good wishes Mike.

Ghedebrav

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

FrankBooth said:

At some point we are going to have to assess whether the large scale protests we are seeing on our streets will have some kind of political impact. My sense is that a lot of people will be bewildered by much of it. If Labour tears itself apart over a relatively small war going on 2000 miles away, there's a danger they don't look like a serious party of government.

It is certainly an event that Sir K could well do without at this stage.

Well, it doesn't seem to have bothered the polling over the last 3 weeks.

Because most people in this country, correctly, don’t see a domestic political angle to it.

The ‘I heart Hamas’ types have already left Labour anyway.

Malmesbury

BlancheLivermore said:

Foxy said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Foxy said:

Beibheirli_C said:

BlancheLivermore said:

BlancheLivermore said:

MaxPB said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

And women

I mean, don't women literally have a fractional worth to men in Islamic law? Like you need several women to equal one man as a witness, and all sorts of shit like that?

Apparently so. In many respects their worth is deemed to be ¼ of that of a man.

Why any woman would want to be a muslim is beyond me. Seriously. Why would you willingly subordinate yourself to that attitude?

And yet there are a fair number of female Muslim converts, and not all as erratic as Sinead O'connor. Similarly I know a fair number of westernised Muslim families where a daughter adopts the Niqab to her parents horror.

A lot of religions are systemically misogynistic, homophobic and oppressive. Indeed Catholicism and Orthodox Judaism are in the frame too.

Some people just like a clear set of instructions on how to live, imposed from above. Not everyone can cope with freedom, and some people feel so threatened by freedom that they want to kill it.

It isn't just an Islamist issue. We have had the same here in the past.

So you’re cool with the women quarter value, so long as some subjugated women don’t complain too much?

No. I am not a Islamist.

The paradox is that some women do choose to be, and I was exploring the reasons why.

Do you ever worry about your views being parallel to those of Islamists?

How do you force people to change their beliefs?

Torture doesn’t really work very well, and is considered a bit rude as well. And in these environmental times, trying to run electric shocks off solar cells is a real fiddle.

Brain washing doesn’t really exist, despite the CIA spending a fortune on LSD.

Old fashioned “burn all the heretics” is a possible. But how do you get the permits for public cremations on an open fire? The particulates from that would be something fierce.

Alphabet_Soup

Foxy said:

Beibheirli_C said:

Foxy said:

Beibheirli_C said:

BlancheLivermore said:

BlancheLivermore said:

MaxPB said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

And women

I mean, don't women literally have a fractional worth to men in Islamic law? Like you need several women to equal one man as a witness, and all sorts of shit like that?

Apparently so. In many respects their worth is deemed to be ¼ of that of a man.

Why any woman would want to be a muslim is beyond me. Seriously. Why would you willingly subordinate yourself to that attitude?

And yet there are a fair number of female Muslim converts, and not all as erratic as Sinead O'connor. Similarly I know a fair number of westernised Muslim families where a daughter adopts the Niqab to her parents horror.

A lot of religions are systemically misogynistic, homophobic and oppressive. Indeed Catholicism and Orthodox Judaism are in the frame too.

Some people just like a clear set of instructions on how to live, imposed from above. Not everyone can cope with freedom, and some people feel so threatened by freedom that they want to kill it.

It isn't just an Islamist issue. We have had the same here in the past.

Yes we did back in the 1400s

More recent than that. Male homosexuality was still illegal here well into my lifetime.

1967 in England and Wales, 1980 for Scotland and 1982 in Northern Ireland, 1993 in RoI.

Looking at the demographics, how long would you give it?

pigeon

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

FrankBooth said:

At some point we are going to have to assess whether the large scale protests we are seeing on our streets will have some kind of political impact. My sense is that a lot of people will be bewildered by much of it. If Labour tears itself apart over a relatively small war going on 2000 miles away, there's a danger they don't look like a serious party of government.

It is certainly an event that Sir K could well do without at this stage.

Well, it doesn't seem to have bothered the polling over the last 3 weeks.

Sir Keir has correctly deduced that the electorate is not, by and large, particularly pre-occupied by or sympathetic towards Palestinians, and that the people who go on all these marches one hears of at the moment - essentially, an unholy alliance of the Stop the War Coalition, Marxist students' groups and Hizb ut-Tahrir, plus various hangers on - are to be held at arms length. Preferably with arms that are several hundred miles long.

Beibheirli_C

Malmesbury said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Foxy said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Foxy said:

Beibheirli_C said:

BlancheLivermore said:

BlancheLivermore said:

MaxPB said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

And women

I mean, don't women literally have a fractional worth to men in Islamic law? Like you need several women to equal one man as a witness, and all sorts of shit like that?

Apparently so. In many respects their worth is deemed to be ¼ of that of a man.

Why any woman would want to be a muslim is beyond me. Seriously. Why would you willingly subordinate yourself to that attitude?

And yet there are a fair number of female Muslim converts, and not all as erratic as Sinead O'connor. Similarly I know a fair number of westernised Muslim families where a daughter adopts the Niqab to her parents horror.

A lot of religions are systemically misogynistic, homophobic and oppressive. Indeed Catholicism and Orthodox Judaism are in the frame too.

Some people just like a clear set of instructions on how to live, imposed from above. Not everyone can cope with freedom, and some people feel so threatened by freedom that they want to kill it.

It isn't just an Islamist issue. We have had the same here in the past.

So you’re cool with the women quarter value, so long as some subjugated women don’t complain too much?

No. I am not a Islamist.

The paradox is that some women do choose to be, and I was exploring the reasons why.

Do you ever worry about your views being parallel to those of Islamists?

How do you force people to change their beliefs?

Torture doesn’t really work very well, and is considered a bit rude as well. And in these environmental times, trying to run electric shocks off solar cells is a real fiddle.

Brain washing doesn’t really exist, despite the CIA spending a fortune on LSD.

Old fashioned “burn all the heretics” is a possible. But how do you get the permits for public cremations on an open fire? The particulates from that would be something fierce.

None of that ever bothered the church in times gone by. If we did not have laws against burning people alive they would probably still be at it...

DecrepiterJohnL

pigeon said:

MaxPB said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

Yep. Many of the supposedly great religions detest us, but Islam definitely wins first prize in the gay persecution and slaughter contest, and by a tidy margin.

At this point we must remember that not only is Gaza ruled by Hamas, but a very large fraction of the people there actually voted for the fuckers. They like and approve of Hamas. They think they've got the right ideas.

One feels that one ought to be sympathetic to the predicament in which the Gazans now find themselves, but it's hard to care much about people that think you belong in Hell, and would rejoice at sending you there as soon as possible given half a chance.

A smaller fraction now, if it is true that more than half of the population was not around to vote. Ironically, Israel's action might harden support for Hamas, because at least they are fighting back against the destroyers of Gazan homes, infrastructure, and lives.

Foxy

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

BlancheLivermore said:

BlancheLivermore said:

MaxPB said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

And women

I mean, don't women literally have a fractional worth to men in Islamic law? Like you need several women to equal one man as a witness, and all sorts of shit like that?

All religions are sexist to varying degrees.

That's just because organised religion is an expression and interpretation by a society, and society has generally been sexist, homophobic and intolerant over the course of human history.

Religion is a human social construct though, and as we progress it is possible to reinvent it.

You can't reinvent the Bible and Koran, either you believe in their teachings or you don't

Biblical literalism is not a requirement to be a Christian.

Belief in its core tenets is

Which just begs the question of what the core tenants are.

I would submit that these are to be found in the Sermon on the Mount.

Malmesbury

pigeon said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

FrankBooth said:

At some point we are going to have to assess whether the large scale protests we are seeing on our streets will have some kind of political impact. My sense is that a lot of people will be bewildered by much of it. If Labour tears itself apart over a relatively small war going on 2000 miles away, there's a danger they don't look like a serious party of government.

It is certainly an event that Sir K could well do without at this stage.

Well, it doesn't seem to have bothered the polling over the last 3 weeks.

Sir Keir has correctly deduced that the electorate is not, by and large, particularly pre-occupied by or sympathetic towards Palestinians, and that the people who go on all these marches one hears of at the moment - essentially, an unholy alliance of the Stop the War Coalition, Marxist students' groups and Hizb ut-Tahrir, plus various hangers on - are to be held at arms length. Preferably with arms that are several hundred miles long.

“ And who are the best men? They are of all ranks and infinite in number—senators, municipals, farmers, men of business…. The type is distinct. They are the well-to-do, the sound, the honest, who do no wrong to any man. The object at which they aim is quiet with honour. They are the conservatives of the State. Religion and good government, the Senate’s authority, the laws and customs of our ancestors, public faith, integrity, sound administration—these are the principles on which they rest, and these they will maintain with their lives. Their path is perilous. The foes of the State are stronger than its defenders; they are bold and desperate, and go with a will to the work of destruction; while the good, I know not why, are languid, and will not rouse themselves unless compelled. They would have quiet without honour, and so lose both quiet and honour.”

Foxy

Alphabet_Soup said:

Foxy said:

Beibheirli_C said:

Foxy said:

Beibheirli_C said:

BlancheLivermore said:

BlancheLivermore said:

MaxPB said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

Gay people. Unless they enjoy being pushed off tall buildings. We saw what IS did to gay people in those places they momentarily held. Islam is a threat to gay people wherever it exists, let alone fundamentalists.

And women

I mean, don't women literally have a fractional worth to men in Islamic law? Like you need several women to equal one man as a witness, and all sorts of shit like that?

Apparently so. In many respects their worth is deemed to be ¼ of that of a man.

Why any woman would want to be a muslim is beyond me. Seriously. Why would you willingly subordinate yourself to that attitude?

And yet there are a fair number of female Muslim converts, and not all as erratic as Sinead O'connor. Similarly I know a fair number of westernised Muslim families where a daughter adopts the Niqab to her parents horror.

A lot of religions are systemically misogynistic, homophobic and oppressive. Indeed Catholicism and Orthodox Judaism are in the frame too.

Some people just like a clear set of instructions on how to live, imposed from above. Not everyone can cope with freedom, and some people feel so threatened by freedom that they want to kill it.

It isn't just an Islamist issue. We have had the same here in the past.

Yes we did back in the 1400s

More recent than that. Male homosexuality was still illegal here well into my lifetime.

1967 in England and Wales, 1980 for Scotland and 1982 in Northern Ireland, 1993 in RoI.

Looking at the demographics, how long would you give it?

I have no idea.

It is certainly true that social progress can reverse.

bondegezou

BartholomewRoberts said:

kyf_100 said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is anyone rational not an Islamismophobe?

Rational Muslims probably have the second most, after Jews, to fear of Islamism

I think the problem is that islam is a political ideology in some parts as much as a religious one. I am afraid of radical islam for the same reason I am afraid of fascism, and for much the same reason. I've no such fear of Christians or Zoroastrians.

Where we in the west have made our bloomer, is in trying to be tolerant and diverse to all religions, which is admirable, without acknowledging the political aspects and tenents of radical Islam. What is happening at the moment is not about religion, it is about fascism. We believe fascism looks like Herr Flick in his dark uniform and leather coat. Unfortunately it takes other forms.

In a secular society then being tolerant and diverse to all religions is entirely reasonable, since if society is secular people can choose their own religion (or none) and it doesn't affect anyone else.

The clash of cultures comes when people oppose secularism and want their faith imposed by force as it is the "word of Yahweh/God/Allah/Buddha/FSM" himself.

Whether that be radical Islamists, radical Christians, radical Buddhist/Jews/Hindus/Vegans/whatever anyone who tries to impose their fundamentalism onto others is a problem.

So, you think it was wrong of Israel to re-write its constitution in 2018 to define itself as a Jewish state?