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Is Sunak going to make it to the election – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,163
edited October 2023 in General
Is Sunak going to make it to the election – politicalbetting.com

One of the things that intrigues me about the current betting markets is that there is so little speculation on the future of the prime minister.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,784
    First unlike Sunak at the general election.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    What is the point of becoming Tory leader at this point? They might as well let Sunak be the one who loses
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863
    edited October 2023
    Third, which is the place the Tories deserve....

    The commentary that Meeks has linked to in his latest tweet is worth putting up here as an article?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,784
    IanB2 said:

    Third, which is the place the Tories deserve....

    The commentary that Meeks has linked to in his latest tweet is worth putting up here as an article?

    Actually fourth, which is the place the Tories really deserve...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863
    Many roads on the island are now impassable due to water, say R4. Still raining heavily
  • gonatasgonatas Posts: 17
    Aspiring?
    Perspiring more likely.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839
    IanB2 said:

    Many roads on the island are now impassable due to water, say R4. Still raining heavily

    Hurricane Otis has been the fastest concentrating hurricane on record and is set to do catastrophic things to southern Mexico: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-67213103

    Storm Babet brought flooding to Dundee that I had not seen the like of in the more than 40 years I have lived here. Only 3 years ago Storm Arwen did terrible damage to our woods.

    There is so much more energy in weather systems now that what used to be extreme events are becoming the new normal. The implications for our already creaking infrastructure and future developments are severe. It is yet another major cost that we will have to address once we have a functioning government again.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,662
    IanB2 said:

    Many roads on the island are now impassable due to water, say R4. Still raining heavily

    Wrong sort of rain according to Ms Coffey.

    https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1716836663475716381?t=IzhZcGXdq4YNWY1pOJ06rg&s=19

    Nothing to do with either our inadequate infrastructure to deal with climate change.

  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    On topic - I suspect so because I don’t think the Tories could pull off another coup without the whole country giving up on them now. 4 PMs in a parliament is patently ridiculous.

    BUT:

    I think there is a case, if Sunak is facing all but certain defeat, where he might quit as Tory leader but not PM, and let a new candidate fight the GE.

    Technically, that allows him to avoid the heavy loss and he can have some legacy on the after dinner speech circuit as coming in as a crisis manager etc without the difficult footnote that he led his party to a landslide defeat.

    I do not put it past Sunak or the Tory Party to try a wheeze like that to present themselves as the change candidates in the election.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    edited October 2023
    DavidL said:

    That seems an unfairly short time for @Alanbrooke's provocative header. He deserved longer.

    Yes, a very good and pertinent piece. Kay Burley on Sky News just mentioned that Save the Children won’t be happy with the uk government not calling for a ceasefire. Why should their opinion count any more than anyone else’s?
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    I would imagine that Sunak would call a GE before being oustered, no? Or that his own MPs would rather that - they could start getting on that gravy train of speaking tours or boards or thinktanks rather than go through the whole rigmarole of another leader.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163

    On topic - I suspect so because I don’t think the Tories could pull off another coup without the whole country giving up on them now. 4 PMs in a parliament is patently ridiculous.

    BUT:

    I think there is a case, if Sunak is facing all but certain defeat, where he might quit as Tory leader but not PM, and let a new candidate fight the GE.

    Technically, that allows him to avoid the heavy loss and he can have some legacy on the after dinner speech circuit as coming in as a crisis manager etc without the difficult footnote that he led his party to a landslide defeat.

    I do not put it past Sunak or the Tory Party to try a wheeze like that to present themselves as the change candidates in the election.

    Sunak resigning and forcing a leadership contest is a different vibe from the Party knifing Sunak and having a leadership contest.

    Still damaging to what is left of the Tory rep. But perhaps less damaging :D
  • tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    That seems an unfairly short time for @Alanbrooke's provocative header. He deserved longer.

    Yes, a very good and pertinent piece. Kay Burley on Sky News just mentioned that Save the Children won’t be happy with the uk government not calling for a ceasefire. Why should their opinion count any more than anyone else’s?
    Because they presumably have some interest and knowledge in the subject matter. There's a difference between slavishly following special interest groups and ignoring them completely.
  • On topic.
    I don't care how absurd replacing Sunak would be - they ARE absurd and will do it if they thought it would help.
    I don't think it will happen because who do you replace him with? Can the parliamentary party coalesce around a true winner? And either get that person through the members vote or get away without one?

    Sunak will be PM until January of 2025.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,662

    On topic.
    I don't care how absurd replacing Sunak would be - they ARE absurd and will do it if they thought it would help.
    I don't think it will happen because who do you replace him with? Can the parliamentary party coalesce around a true winner? And either get that person through the members vote or get away without one?

    Sunak will be PM until January of 2025.

    The biggest problem is that there is no one obvious to take over in a coronation. Not that coronations tend to work anyway (Sunak, May, Brown...), and a contest would be a ridiculous indulgence.

    Sunak should call a GE in the spring. The longer this drags on the worse it gets.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    edited October 2023
    Shame the last thread ended so suddenly.

    Anyhow, more posters of kidnapped Israelis being ripped down by some lovely people. Leicester Square, this time:

    https://twitter.com/richferrer/status/1716925743413010698
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,790
    Mr. Eagles, understandable, and eminently forgiveable. It's not like Caesar's foolhardy assault on Gergovia, after all.
  • From OGH's header: Could it be that the job has ceased to be attractive to aspiring Tories?

    The question for aspiring Tories is whether it is worth being Prime Minister for a few months before losing the general election and then being ruthlessly consigned to the Opposition backbenches. It's a career-ender. Alternative career paths include standing down now in order to maximise job opportunities out of office, or waiting until Opposition before taking up the reins of leadership and sweeping back to power in 2029.

    So if Rishi is to be replaced, it is probably by an older candidate looking to retire anyway.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    On topic - I suspect so because I don’t think the Tories could pull off another coup without the whole country giving up on them now. 4 PMs in a parliament is patently ridiculous.

    BUT:

    I think there is a case, if Sunak is facing all but certain defeat, where he might quit as Tory leader but not PM, and let a new candidate fight the GE.

    Technically, that allows him to avoid the heavy loss and he can have some legacy on the after dinner speech circuit as coming in as a crisis manager etc without the difficult footnote that he led his party to a landslide defeat.

    I do not put it past Sunak or the Tory Party to try a wheeze like that to present themselves as the change candidates in the election.

    There's still my solution - do as you suggest, but don't finish the leadership contest before the election, confusing the public as 6 potential leaders and PMs present different visions.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    Rishi will remain PM until the election which will probably be in May or Oct 2024.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    After having spent five hours and £500 at Ikea yesterday, I'm now in Ikea build hell.

    Last time I did this, I was in hospital with meningitis the next day.

    (Correlation != causation...)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    Well if the election is, as many of us expect, Thursday 24th Oct 2024, then exactly a year from now we’ll be eagerly awaiting the arrival of Mr Sunak at the Palace to meet the King.
  • Shame the last thread ended sp suddenly.

    Anyhow, more posters of kidnapped Israelis being ripped down by some lovely people. Leicester Square, this time:

    https://twitter.com/richferrer/status/1716925743413010698

    Yes but this follows from what some of us warned about. Israel flattening Gaza risks changing the victim narrative so that Israel is seen as the aggressor and Palestinians (and fellow Muslims) the victims. Of course, this will make no difference in the Middle East, and might even be welcomed by some extreme Israeli politicians because it proves (pace the last thread) that Jews are not safe outside of Israel itself.

    (And by some of us, I mean me, many Israelis, the UN, the United States and so on.)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    Shame the last thread ended sp suddenly.

    Anyhow, more posters of kidnapped Israelis being ripped down by some lovely people. Leicester Square, this time:

    https://twitter.com/richferrer/status/1716925743413010698

    I find that behaviour particularly hard to understand. If someone thinks Israel should not defend itself (or that what it is doing in seeking that is disproportionate collective retribution, not defence) then that is one thing. It ranges from the awful to maybe having a point in some parts.

    But to go out of your way to remove images of kidnapped hostages? Why? What possible non-awful reason can there be for that? Do they think the people are not captured? Do they think its a good thing they are? Do they want to pretend the massacre never happened so they can use decades old lines without variation?
  • Foxy said:

    On topic.
    I don't care how absurd replacing Sunak would be - they ARE absurd and will do it if they thought it would help.
    I don't think it will happen because who do you replace him with? Can the parliamentary party coalesce around a true winner? And either get that person through the members vote or get away without one?

    Sunak will be PM until January of 2025.

    The biggest problem is that there is no one obvious to take over in a coronation. Not that coronations tend to work anyway (Sunak, May, Brown...), and a contest would be a ridiculous indulgence.

    Sunak should call a GE in the spring. The longer this drags on the worse it gets.
    It makes sense to go to the country in the Spring.
    • November: Autumn Statement (or is it a Budget?) in which the Chancellor confirms the Triple Lock and an 8% increase in state pension for the core vote.
    • November: Flights resume to Rwanda.
    • December: Inflation falls to between 5% - 6% (roughly half of where it was).
    • Autumn/Winter: Number of boat crossings falls (though not stopped).
    • January: Close 50 hotels housing migrants appealing to the Right.
    • March: Close a further 50 hotels housing migrants (100 in total) appealing to the Right.
    • April: 8% increase kicks in.
    • April: Dissolve Parliament and call an Election as the Prime Minister who has halved inflation, stopped the boats, got rid of migrants and protected the Triple Lock.
    Of course, the fly in the ointment is the Supreme Court. If they rule against the Government on the Rwanda plan then the Government may be tempted to say "We can't close the hotels because we can't send them to Rwanda. We're being held back by an activist judiciary".
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    Shame the last thread ended sp suddenly.

    Anyhow, more posters of kidnapped Israelis being ripped down by some lovely people. Leicester Square, this time:

    https://twitter.com/richferrer/status/1716925743413010698

    Yes but this follows from what some of us warned about. Israel flattening Gaza risks changing the victim narrative so that Israel is seen as the aggressor and Palestinians (and fellow Muslims) the victims. Of course, this will make no difference in the Middle East, and might even be welcomed by some extreme Israeli politicians because it proves (pace the last thread) that Jews are not safe outside of Israel itself.

    (And by some of us, I mean me, many Israelis, the UN, the United States and so on.)
    It doesn't seem to me to have changed the narrative. People who'd tear down those images will never have accepted a narrative that Israel was a victim in the first place even in that instance. Like the posters they would not want to see or accept that.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    kle4 said:

    Shame the last thread ended sp suddenly.

    Anyhow, more posters of kidnapped Israelis being ripped down by some lovely people. Leicester Square, this time:

    https://twitter.com/richferrer/status/1716925743413010698

    I find that behaviour particularly hard to understand. If someone thinks Israel should not defend itself (or that what it is doing in seeking that is disproportionate collective retribution, not defence) then that is one thing. It ranges from the awful to maybe having a point in some parts.

    But to go out of your way to remove images of kidnapped hostages? Why? What possible non-awful reason can there be for that? Do they think the people are not captured? Do they think its a good thing they are? Do they want to pretend the massacre never happened so they can use decades old lines without variation?
    Perhaps in part because the posters make it clear that Israelis can be victims, too. This muddies the rather clear waters in their brain cell, which states clearly that Israelis are the aggressors, and Palestinians the victims.

    And perhaps a healthy dose of ye olde anti-Semitism.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163

    Foxy said:

    On topic.
    I don't care how absurd replacing Sunak would be - they ARE absurd and will do it if they thought it would help.
    I don't think it will happen because who do you replace him with? Can the parliamentary party coalesce around a true winner? And either get that person through the members vote or get away without one?

    Sunak will be PM until January of 2025.

    The biggest problem is that there is no one obvious to take over in a coronation. Not that coronations tend to work anyway (Sunak, May, Brown...), and a contest would be a ridiculous indulgence.

    Sunak should call a GE in the spring. The longer this drags on the worse it gets.
    It makes sense to go to the country in the Spring.
    • November: Autumn Statement (or is it a Budget?) in which the Chancellor confirms the Triple Lock and an 8% increase in state pension for the core vote.
    • November: Flights resume to Rwanda.
    • December: Inflation falls to between 5% - 6% (roughly half of where it was).
    • Autumn/Winter: Number of boat crossings falls (though not stopped).
    • January: Close 50 hotels housing migrants appealing to the Right.
    • March: Close a further 50 hotels housing migrants (100 in total) appealing to the Right.
    • April: 8% increase kicks in.
    • April: Dissolve Parliament and call an Election as the Prime Minister who has halved inflation, stopped the boats, got rid of migrants and protected the Triple Lock.
    Of course, the fly in the ointment is the Supreme Court. If they rule against the Government on the Rwanda plan then the Government may be tempted to say "We can't close the hotels because we can't send them to Rwanda. We're being held back by an activist judiciary".
    And that policy agenda will lose them even more votes where they really need it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Many roads on the island are now impassable due to water, say R4. Still raining heavily

    Wrong sort of rain according to Ms Coffey.

    https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1716836663475716381?t=IzhZcGXdq4YNWY1pOJ06rg&s=19

    Nothing to do with either our inadequate infrastructure to deal with climate change.

    Wrong sort of minister.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839

    After having spent five hours and £500 at Ikea yesterday, I'm now in Ikea build hell.

    Last time I did this, I was in hospital with meningitis the next day.

    (Correlation != causation...)

    That's not causation, that's self defence.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    Remember when Wetherspoons used to have big posters thanking “Dishy Rishi”?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,270
    A
    kle4 said:

    Shame the last thread ended sp suddenly.

    Anyhow, more posters of kidnapped Israelis being ripped down by some lovely people. Leicester Square, this time:

    https://twitter.com/richferrer/status/1716925743413010698

    I find that behaviour particularly hard to understand. If someone thinks Israel should not defend itself (or that what it is doing in seeking that is disproportionate collective retribution, not defence) then that is one thing. It ranges from the awful to maybe having a point in some parts.

    But to go out of your way to remove images of kidnapped hostages? Why? What possible non-awful reason can there be for that? Do they think the people are not captured? Do they think its a good thing they are? Do they want to pretend the massacre never happened so they can use decades old lines without variation?
    People used tried to claim it was racist to translate Arabic language newspaper articles into English. Which were often very, very racist. The official English language version of the papers would often not carry the articles.

    Apparently “context” is very important in racist crap - some stuff isn’t meant for outsiders, I suppose.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,457
    Probably, but not certainly - which is why I've covered myself by backing others as Next PM.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,405
    Yes, he will. I don't think even this shower would change course now.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,526
    tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    That seems an unfairly short time for @Alanbrooke's provocative header. He deserved longer.

    Yes, a very good and pertinent piece. Kay Burley on Sky News just mentioned that Save the Children won’t be happy with the uk government not calling for a ceasefire. Why should their opinion count any more than anyone else’s?
    The opinion of a charity specialising in easing children's suffering that current Israeli policy is causing massive suffering to children does seem relevant.

    Personally as one of the few MPs who was in both Labour Friends of Israel and Labour Friends of Palestine (I was on the executive of the former), I must say I'm losing sympathy with Israel despite the horrific Hamas atrocities. Frankly they should get on with the invasion if they're going to do it and then run the area they occupy until further notice, not just starve the population. And the refusal of a visa to a UN official "to teach them a lesson" sounds petulant and tin-eared.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,405
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Many roads on the island are now impassable due to water, say R4. Still raining heavily

    Wrong sort of rain according to Ms Coffey.

    https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1716836663475716381?t=IzhZcGXdq4YNWY1pOJ06rg&s=19

    Nothing to do with either our inadequate infrastructure to deal with climate change.

    Ah, Best For Britain, a wonderful impartial source.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191

    Shame the last thread ended sp suddenly.

    Anyhow, more posters of kidnapped Israelis being ripped down by some lovely people. Leicester Square, this time:

    https://twitter.com/richferrer/status/1716925743413010698

    Yes but this follows from what some of us warned about. Israel flattening Gaza risks changing the victim narrative so that Israel is seen as the aggressor and Palestinians (and fellow Muslims) the victims. Of course, this will make no difference in the Middle East, and might even be welcomed by some extreme Israeli politicians because it proves (pace the last thread) that Jews are not safe outside of Israel itself.

    (And by some of us, I mean me, many Israelis, the UN, the United States and so on.)
    The people kidnapped are not the ones bombing Gaza, these people are human beings with brothers, sisters, parents, children, grandchildren, wives, husbands, aunts, uncles and cousins the same as those in Gaza - it's just an ignorant and upsetting act no matter your views on the situation in the Middle East.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163

    Remember when Wetherspoons used to have big posters thanking “Dishy Rishi”?

    I do not know if Wetherspoons has a company motto, but "We'll do/say anything for money" might be a suitable choice for them...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592

    Shame the last thread ended sp suddenly.

    Anyhow, more posters of kidnapped Israelis being ripped down by some lovely people. Leicester Square, this time:

    https://twitter.com/richferrer/status/1716925743413010698

    Yes but this follows from what some of us warned about. Israel flattening Gaza risks changing the victim narrative so that Israel is seen as the aggressor and Palestinians (and fellow Muslims) the victims. Of course, this will make no difference in the Middle East, and might even be welcomed by some extreme Israeli politicians because it proves (pace the last thread) that Jews are not safe outside of Israel itself.

    (And by some of us, I mean me, many Israelis, the UN, the United States and so on.)
    The problem is, you may have 'warned about' it, but you don't have a reasonable alternative. What state would allow what happened earlier this month and not respond? Not responding will, eventually, lead to the destruction of the Israeli state.

    Not a single person on here, despite all our collective brainpower, has produced a surgical knife that would enable Israel to take out Hamas leaders and fighters without collateral damage. Yet that is what some on here are calling for. It doesn't exist.

    The problem these lovely people have is that they're working backwards: they know the truth - that Israel are bad, and Palestinians holy - and cannot stand the sight of any evidence that contradicts that.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175

    tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    That seems an unfairly short time for @Alanbrooke's provocative header. He deserved longer.

    Yes, a very good and pertinent piece. Kay Burley on Sky News just mentioned that Save the Children won’t be happy with the uk government not calling for a ceasefire. Why should their opinion count any more than anyone else’s?
    Because they presumably have some interest and knowledge in the subject matter. There's a difference between slavishly following special interest groups and ignoring them completely.
    I’ll tell you what I didn’t like this morning, it was the tone of “well if Save the Children aren’t happy, the government is in the wrong”.

    I’d be happier if Sky got Save the Children on and asked them questions like “do you accept that all hostages need to be released before a ceasefire can be considered?”
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,457
    FPT - people have the right to protest, but people also have the right not to have their lives completely disrupted to indulge it.

    Worth remembering that Greta Thunberg (who I often take issue with) achieved a very effective protest by simply sitting outside the Swedish Parliament for months with billboard and handing out flyers.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,405

    Foxy said:

    On topic.
    I don't care how absurd replacing Sunak would be - they ARE absurd and will do it if they thought it would help.
    I don't think it will happen because who do you replace him with? Can the parliamentary party coalesce around a true winner? And either get that person through the members vote or get away without one?

    Sunak will be PM until January of 2025.

    The biggest problem is that there is no one obvious to take over in a coronation. Not that coronations tend to work anyway (Sunak, May, Brown...), and a contest would be a ridiculous indulgence.

    Sunak should call a GE in the spring. The longer this drags on the worse it gets.
    It makes sense to go to the country in the Spring.
    • November: Autumn Statement (or is it a Budget?) in which the Chancellor confirms the Triple Lock and an 8% increase in state pension for the core vote.
    • November: Flights resume to Rwanda.
    • December: Inflation falls to between 5% - 6% (roughly half of where it was).
    • Autumn/Winter: Number of boat crossings falls (though not stopped).
    • January: Close 50 hotels housing migrants appealing to the Right.
    • March: Close a further 50 hotels housing migrants (100 in total) appealing to the Right.
    • April: 8% increase kicks in.
    • April: Dissolve Parliament and call an Election as the Prime Minister who has halved inflation, stopped the boats, got rid of migrants and protected the Triple Lock.
    Of course, the fly in the ointment is the Supreme Court. If they rule against the Government on the Rwanda plan then the Government may be tempted to say "We can't close the hotels because we can't send them to Rwanda. We're being held back by an activist judiciary".
    It is a plausible timeline, although the one thing that could muddy the waters is the impending war in the middle east and what happens there.

    Alot of labours support is pro Palestine, not just the Muslim vote. They could easily be turned off labour due to its avid pro Israel stance.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592

    tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    That seems an unfairly short time for @Alanbrooke's provocative header. He deserved longer.

    Yes, a very good and pertinent piece. Kay Burley on Sky News just mentioned that Save the Children won’t be happy with the uk government not calling for a ceasefire. Why should their opinion count any more than anyone else’s?
    The opinion of a charity specialising in easing children's suffering that current Israeli policy is causing massive suffering to children does seem relevant.

    Personally as one of the few MPs who was in both Labour Friends of Israel and Labour Friends of Palestine (I was on the executive of the former), I must say I'm losing sympathy with Israel despite the horrific Hamas atrocities. Frankly they should get on with the invasion if they're going to do it and then run the area they occupy until further notice, not just starve the population. And the refusal of a visa to a UN official "to teach them a lesson" sounds petulant and tin-eared.
    Did Save the Children make a statement about the Israeli children murdered and kidnapped?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    A

    kle4 said:

    Shame the last thread ended sp suddenly.

    Anyhow, more posters of kidnapped Israelis being ripped down by some lovely people. Leicester Square, this time:

    https://twitter.com/richferrer/status/1716925743413010698

    I find that behaviour particularly hard to understand. If someone thinks Israel should not defend itself (or that what it is doing in seeking that is disproportionate collective retribution, not defence) then that is one thing. It ranges from the awful to maybe having a point in some parts.

    But to go out of your way to remove images of kidnapped hostages? Why? What possible non-awful reason can there be for that? Do they think the people are not captured? Do they think its a good thing they are? Do they want to pretend the massacre never happened so they can use decades old lines without variation?
    People used tried to claim it was racist to translate Arabic language newspaper articles into English. Which were often very, very racist. The official English language version of the papers would often not carry the articles.

    Apparently “context” is very important in racist crap - some stuff isn’t meant for outsiders, I suppose.
    That sounds like the tourist sites in Istanbul, which would have a sign in Turkish (only) saying that Turkish citizens got a 90% discount. Many of the restaurants likely had two menus as well, because I don’t think the locals were paying £7 for a beer.
  • Foxy said:

    On topic.
    I don't care how absurd replacing Sunak would be - they ARE absurd and will do it if they thought it would help.
    I don't think it will happen because who do you replace him with? Can the parliamentary party coalesce around a true winner? And either get that person through the members vote or get away without one?

    Sunak will be PM until January of 2025.

    The biggest problem is that there is no one obvious to take over in a coronation. Not that coronations tend to work anyway (Sunak, May, Brown...), and a contest would be a ridiculous indulgence.

    Sunak should call a GE in the spring. The longer this drags on the worse it gets.
    It makes sense to go to the country in the Spring.
    • November: Autumn Statement (or is it a Budget?) in which the Chancellor confirms the Triple Lock and an 8% increase in state pension for the core vote.
    • November: Flights resume to Rwanda.
    • December: Inflation falls to between 5% - 6% (roughly half of where it was).
    • Autumn/Winter: Number of boat crossings falls (though not stopped).
    • January: Close 50 hotels housing migrants appealing to the Right.
    • March: Close a further 50 hotels housing migrants (100 in total) appealing to the Right.
    • April: 8% increase kicks in.
    • April: Dissolve Parliament and call an Election as the Prime Minister who has halved inflation, stopped the boats, got rid of migrants and protected the Triple Lock.
    Of course, the fly in the ointment is the Supreme Court. If they rule against the Government on the Rwanda plan then the Government may be tempted to say "We can't close the hotels because we can't send them to Rwanda. We're being held back by an activist judiciary".
    And that policy agenda will lose them even more votes where they really need it.
    I agree.

    The thing is... The folks in Number 10 and CCHQ aren't that bright. They've mapped it out like that. The announcement from Jenrick about 50 hotels by January and 100 by March was the giveaway.

    Of course, if it's the same day as the Locals, even better. That's when people vote the issues that matter - potholes and roads, bin collections ("Three bins, not seven!") Rishi will love it.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,405

    Remember when Wetherspoons used to have big posters thanking “Dishy Rishi”?

    I do not know if Wetherspoons has a company motto, but "We'll do/say anything for money" might be a suitable choice for them...
    Given Eat out to Help out really helped the hospitality industry why shouldn't they say thanks.

    The industry has had a torrid time. Still does.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,497
    edited October 2023
    Two memorable bits from R4 Today this morning. The comment by Nick R after an interview with a lovely and distressed woman in Gaza who worked for Oxfam that 'she was not willing to discuss Hamas'; secondly the Palestinian woman interviewed, not in Gaza, and asked about her thoughts on the 7th October killings: "I will not answer that question".

    Elephants in rooms.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,270
    Sandpit said:

    A

    kle4 said:

    Shame the last thread ended sp suddenly.

    Anyhow, more posters of kidnapped Israelis being ripped down by some lovely people. Leicester Square, this time:

    https://twitter.com/richferrer/status/1716925743413010698

    I find that behaviour particularly hard to understand. If someone thinks Israel should not defend itself (or that what it is doing in seeking that is disproportionate collective retribution, not defence) then that is one thing. It ranges from the awful to maybe having a point in some parts.

    But to go out of your way to remove images of kidnapped hostages? Why? What possible non-awful reason can there be for that? Do they think the people are not captured? Do they think its a good thing they are? Do they want to pretend the massacre never happened so they can use decades old lines without variation?
    People used tried to claim it was racist to translate Arabic language newspaper articles into English. Which were often very, very racist. The official English language version of the papers would often not carry the articles.

    Apparently “context” is very important in racist crap - some stuff isn’t meant for outsiders, I suppose.
    That sounds like the tourist sites in Istanbul, which would have a sign in Turkish (only) saying that Turkish citizens got a 90% discount. Many of the restaurants likely had two menus as well, because I don’t think the locals were paying £7 for a beer.
    No - quite a few counties have differential rates for locals/tourists. That’s perfectly reasonable in poorer countries. A common one is free entry to museums to locals.

    I’m talking about the kind of racist filth that would, in the U.K., have you in court. And no one would argue it was “fair comment”.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,497
    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic.
    I don't care how absurd replacing Sunak would be - they ARE absurd and will do it if they thought it would help.
    I don't think it will happen because who do you replace him with? Can the parliamentary party coalesce around a true winner? And either get that person through the members vote or get away without one?

    Sunak will be PM until January of 2025.

    The biggest problem is that there is no one obvious to take over in a coronation. Not that coronations tend to work anyway (Sunak, May, Brown...), and a contest would be a ridiculous indulgence.

    Sunak should call a GE in the spring. The longer this drags on the worse it gets.
    It makes sense to go to the country in the Spring.
    • November: Autumn Statement (or is it a Budget?) in which the Chancellor confirms the Triple Lock and an 8% increase in state pension for the core vote.
    • November: Flights resume to Rwanda.
    • December: Inflation falls to between 5% - 6% (roughly half of where it was).
    • Autumn/Winter: Number of boat crossings falls (though not stopped).
    • January: Close 50 hotels housing migrants appealing to the Right.
    • March: Close a further 50 hotels housing migrants (100 in total) appealing to the Right.
    • April: 8% increase kicks in.
    • April: Dissolve Parliament and call an Election as the Prime Minister who has halved inflation, stopped the boats, got rid of migrants and protected the Triple Lock.
    Of course, the fly in the ointment is the Supreme Court. If they rule against the Government on the Rwanda plan then the Government may be tempted to say "We can't close the hotels because we can't send them to Rwanda. We're being held back by an activist judiciary".
    It is a plausible timeline, although the one thing that could muddy the waters is the impending war in the middle east and what happens there.

    Alot of labours support is pro Palestine, not just the Muslim vote. They could easily be turned off labour due to its avid pro Israel stance.
    I suspect most Labour voters, like most people, sympathise with good people on both sides and oppose bad people on both sides. Turning this into policy is impossible for now of course, so all policies are going to sound awful. Sir K will need to turn to unicorns for help and be grateful that for now he isn't PM.

    Secondly, a certainty is that Labour voters put off Labour by Palestine etc are not going to vote Tory, so it doesn't help them much.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,270
    algarkirk said:

    Two memorable bits from R4 Today this morning. The comment by Nick R after an interview with a lovely and distressed woman in Gaza who worked for Oxfam that 'she was not willing to discuss Hamas'; secondly the Palestinian woman interviewed, not in Gaza, and asked about her thoughts on the 7th October killings: "I will not answer that question".

    Elephants in rooms.

    It’s exactly like Northern Ireland - when asked about the latest atrocity by X, it was telling when the talking head from X would start talking about anything else.

    Even trying to get them to say something like “we condemn all violence” was apparently rude.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    FPT - people have the right to protest, but people also have the right not to have their lives completely disrupted to indulge it.

    Worth remembering that Greta Thunberg (who I often take issue with) achieved a very effective protest by simply sitting outside the Swedish Parliament for months with billboard and handing out flyers.

    The problem is that many people have their lives completely disrupted by the very things they're protesting - which is why they protest.

    If you think some hippies sitting in a road is aggravating, how disruptive is having 2-3 deadly storms every year, food scarcity, etc. etc. I remember seeing that story about the 4x4 mum who nudged a protester with her car, and people being all "right on!". But later that summer, during the heatwave, literally around the corner from where that happened the local field caught fire and caused road closures and property damage and disruption much greater than a single road blockage.

    People who tend to be against protesting only see it as a barrier to their treats, or an affront to the fact they put up with life being shit (or have a very comfortable life, thank you very much), so why are these holier than thous making me have to confront these things when I don't want to. When, in reality, lots of these people have tried all other avenues to discharge the anxiety or pressure they're under from whatever thing they are protesting and feel unheard.

    The greater difficulty arises, of course, when you come to the discussion on whether those anxieties / pressures are sincere, real or imagined - and where I think more of the conversation should lie. For instance - lots of people I've seen decry XR or JSO as a dangerous mob have no problem with the anti-ULEZ vigilantes who are destroying property (a thing anti protest people usually decry). For what it is worth I think those people have real anxieties, it's just that right wing / false consciousness conspiratorialism aims those anxieties towards the left and the oppressed rather than towards the actual source of their problems.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,405
    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic.
    I don't care how absurd replacing Sunak would be - they ARE absurd and will do it if they thought it would help.
    I don't think it will happen because who do you replace him with? Can the parliamentary party coalesce around a true winner? And either get that person through the members vote or get away without one?

    Sunak will be PM until January of 2025.

    The biggest problem is that there is no one obvious to take over in a coronation. Not that coronations tend to work anyway (Sunak, May, Brown...), and a contest would be a ridiculous indulgence.

    Sunak should call a GE in the spring. The longer this drags on the worse it gets.
    It makes sense to go to the country in the Spring.
    • November: Autumn Statement (or is it a Budget?) in which the Chancellor confirms the Triple Lock and an 8% increase in state pension for the core vote.
    • November: Flights resume to Rwanda.
    • December: Inflation falls to between 5% - 6% (roughly half of where it was).
    • Autumn/Winter: Number of boat crossings falls (though not stopped).
    • January: Close 50 hotels housing migrants appealing to the Right.
    • March: Close a further 50 hotels housing migrants (100 in total) appealing to the Right.
    • April: 8% increase kicks in.
    • April: Dissolve Parliament and call an Election as the Prime Minister who has halved inflation, stopped the boats, got rid of migrants and protected the Triple Lock.
    Of course, the fly in the ointment is the Supreme Court. If they rule against the Government on the Rwanda plan then the Government may be tempted to say "We can't close the hotels because we can't send them to Rwanda. We're being held back by an activist judiciary".
    It is a plausible timeline, although the one thing that could muddy the waters is the impending war in the middle east and what happens there.

    Alot of labours support is pro Palestine, not just the Muslim vote. They could easily be turned off labour due to its avid pro Israel stance.
    I suspect most Labour voters, like most people, sympathise with good people on both sides and oppose bad people on both sides. Turning this into policy is impossible for now of course, so all policies are going to sound awful. Sir K will need to turn to unicorns for help and be grateful that for now he isn't PM.

    Secondly, a certainty is that Labour voters put off Labour by Palestine etc are not going to vote Tory, so it doesn't help them much.

    I was going from the polling released within the last week or so that showed where the sympathies lie.

    If they sit on their hands and don't vote, or go Green or Lib Dem, it doesn't exactly do wonders for Labour either.

    Tory voters sitting on their hands certainly helped Labour in recent by elections.


  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    Sandpit said:

    A

    kle4 said:

    Shame the last thread ended sp suddenly.

    Anyhow, more posters of kidnapped Israelis being ripped down by some lovely people. Leicester Square, this time:

    https://twitter.com/richferrer/status/1716925743413010698

    I find that behaviour particularly hard to understand. If someone thinks Israel should not defend itself (or that what it is doing in seeking that is disproportionate collective retribution, not defence) then that is one thing. It ranges from the awful to maybe having a point in some parts.

    But to go out of your way to remove images of kidnapped hostages? Why? What possible non-awful reason can there be for that? Do they think the people are not captured? Do they think its a good thing they are? Do they want to pretend the massacre never happened so they can use decades old lines without variation?
    People used tried to claim it was racist to translate Arabic language newspaper articles into English. Which were often very, very racist. The official English language version of the papers would often not carry the articles.

    Apparently “context” is very important in racist crap - some stuff isn’t meant for outsiders, I suppose.
    That sounds like the tourist sites in Istanbul, which would have a sign in Turkish (only) saying that Turkish citizens got a 90% discount. Many of the restaurants likely had two menus as well, because I don’t think the locals were paying £7 for a beer.
    No - quite a few counties have differential rates for locals/tourists. That’s perfectly reasonable in poorer countries. A common one is free entry to museums to locals.

    I’m talking about the kind of racist filth that would, in the U.K., have you in court. And no one would argue it was “fair comment”.
    One of the Iranian TV channels got shut down by OFCOM for that, after they commissioned a formal translation of the programming in their own languages.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    I'd say the chances of the Tories dumping Sunak before the GE are close to zero. Starmer Next PM on betfair can be viewed as a 1 year bond yielding 20%. Rating not quite AAA but well above junk.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,994
    edited October 2023
    Taz said:

    Remember when Wetherspoons used to have big posters thanking “Dishy Rishi”?

    I do not know if Wetherspoons has a company motto, but "We'll do/say anything for money" might be a suitable choice for them...
    Given Eat out to Help out really helped the hospitality industry why shouldn't they say thanks.

    The industry has had a torrid time. Still does.
    It was something Rishi got completely correct. It also cost next to nothing and was possibly even revenue positive for the Treasury.

    Shame he then went from clever initiatives like this to being captured by the Treasury dogma putting up taxes consistently.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,405
    Pulpstar said:

    (Very) off topic - I note stories of people approaching retirement age with interest only mortgages on their OO properties seem to be cropping up in the papers. You can smell the "missold" claims coming up a few years down the line from here, but I think people with an interest only mortgage knew exactly what it is they were buying tbh.

    Of course they did. Just as people in shared ownership or Help to Buy did.

    They made their bed. Etc etc.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,405
    edited October 2023

    tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    That seems an unfairly short time for @Alanbrooke's provocative header. He deserved longer.

    Yes, a very good and pertinent piece. Kay Burley on Sky News just mentioned that Save the Children won’t be happy with the uk government not calling for a ceasefire. Why should their opinion count any more than anyone else’s?
    The opinion of a charity specialising in easing children's suffering that current Israeli policy is causing massive suffering to children does seem relevant.

    Personally as one of the few MPs who was in both Labour Friends of Israel and Labour Friends of Palestine (I was on the executive of the former), I must say I'm losing sympathy with Israel despite the horrific Hamas atrocities. Frankly they should get on with the invasion if they're going to do it and then run the area they occupy until further notice, not just starve the population. And the refusal of a visa to a UN official "to teach them a lesson" sounds petulant and tin-eared.
    Sort of yes Nick they need to get on with it. However they have 300,000 men most of whom havent been in uniform for a while and who are being asked to take on the most difficult form of combat. They would be be better off ditching Netanyahu and putting a sensible PM in place for the diplomatic discussions in the lull.

    Likewise if I was them I would be snapping up the biggest industrial pumps available and plan to flood the tunnels to get Hamas out, that way they can avoid an underground war with all its casualaties.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,405

    tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    That seems an unfairly short time for @Alanbrooke's provocative header. He deserved longer.

    Yes, a very good and pertinent piece. Kay Burley on Sky News just mentioned that Save the Children won’t be happy with the uk government not calling for a ceasefire. Why should their opinion count any more than anyone else’s?
    The opinion of a charity specialising in easing children's suffering that current Israeli policy is causing massive suffering to children does seem relevant.

    Personally as one of the few MPs who was in both Labour Friends of Israel and Labour Friends of Palestine (I was on the executive of the former), I must say I'm losing sympathy with Israel despite the horrific Hamas atrocities. Frankly they should get on with the invasion if they're going to do it and then run the area they occupy until further notice, not just starve the population. And the refusal of a visa to a UN official "to teach them a lesson" sounds petulant and tin-eared.
    Did Save the Children make a statement about the Israeli children murdered and kidnapped?
    Personally I do not know about them but the craven silence of many organisations, as well as social media slebs who jump on every bandwaggon for approval, still shames them to this day.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    Taz said:

    tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    That seems an unfairly short time for @Alanbrooke's provocative header. He deserved longer.

    Yes, a very good and pertinent piece. Kay Burley on Sky News just mentioned that Save the Children won’t be happy with the uk government not calling for a ceasefire. Why should their opinion count any more than anyone else’s?
    The opinion of a charity specialising in easing children's suffering that current Israeli policy is causing massive suffering to children does seem relevant.

    Personally as one of the few MPs who was in both Labour Friends of Israel and Labour Friends of Palestine (I was on the executive of the former), I must say I'm losing sympathy with Israel despite the horrific Hamas atrocities. Frankly they should get on with the invasion if they're going to do it and then run the area they occupy until further notice, not just starve the population. And the refusal of a visa to a UN official "to teach them a lesson" sounds petulant and tin-eared.
    Did Save the Children make a statement about the Israeli children murdered and kidnapped?
    Personally I do not know about them but the craven silence of many organisations, as well as social media slebs who jump on every bandwaggon for approval, still shames them to this day.
    If you start from the belief, as many of these organisations do, that the bad people in the world are the UK, USA, and Israel, then it starts to get difficult when those countries are attacked.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    Taz said:

    Remember when Wetherspoons used to have big posters thanking “Dishy Rishi”?

    I do not know if Wetherspoons has a company motto, but "We'll do/say anything for money" might be a suitable choice for them...
    Given Eat out to Help out really helped the hospitality industry why shouldn't they say thanks.

    The industry has had a torrid time. Still does.
    EOTHO might have helped the hospitality industry but it did not help the rest of us much. It was a great spreader for covid. At the time I was astounded that they did it and I certainly did not avail myself of it either.

    But Wetherspoons made a lot of bad headlines during covid for how they treated their staff.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,055
    edited October 2023
    Is the closing down of the previous thread, such that the header can’t even be read on vanilla, (not something I have seen before) a deliberate “joke” based on the content?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    From a military perspective this delay ain't half giving Hamas a chance to mine/booby trap every bit of rubble in northern Gaza.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159

    Foxy said:

    On topic.
    I don't care how absurd replacing Sunak would be - they ARE absurd and will do it if they thought it would help.
    I don't think it will happen because who do you replace him with? Can the parliamentary party coalesce around a true winner? And either get that person through the members vote or get away without one?

    Sunak will be PM until January of 2025.

    The biggest problem is that there is no one obvious to take over in a coronation. Not that coronations tend to work anyway (Sunak, May, Brown...), and a contest would be a ridiculous indulgence.

    Sunak should call a GE in the spring. The longer this drags on the worse it gets.
    It makes sense to go to the country in the Spring.
    • November: Autumn Statement (or is it a Budget?) in which the Chancellor confirms the Triple Lock and an 8% increase in state pension for the core vote.
    • November: Flights resume to Rwanda.
    • December: Inflation falls to between 5% - 6% (roughly half of where it was).
    • Autumn/Winter: Number of boat crossings falls (though not stopped).
    • January: Close 50 hotels housing migrants appealing to the Right.
    • March: Close a further 50 hotels housing migrants (100 in total) appealing to the Right.
    • April: 8% increase kicks in.
    • April: Dissolve Parliament and call an Election as the Prime Minister who has halved inflation, stopped the boats, got rid of migrants and protected the Triple Lock.
    Of course, the fly in the ointment is the Supreme Court. If they rule against the Government on the Rwanda plan then the Government may be tempted to say "We can't close the hotels because we can't send them to Rwanda. We're being held back by an activist judiciary".
    This keeps being reported as 'closing hotels' but is that correct? I thought the idea is they go back to normal 'non migrant' business.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,090

    Taz said:

    Remember when Wetherspoons used to have big posters thanking “Dishy Rishi”?

    I do not know if Wetherspoons has a company motto, but "We'll do/say anything for money" might be a suitable choice for them...
    Given Eat out to Help out really helped the hospitality industry why shouldn't they say thanks.

    The industry has had a torrid time. Still does.
    EOTHO might have helped the hospitality industry but it did not help the rest of us much. It was a great spreader for covid. At the time I was astounded that they did it and I certainly did not avail myself of it either.

    But Wetherspoons made a lot of bad headlines during covid for how they treated their staff.
    https://academic.oup.com/ej/article/132/643/1200/6382847 "The above conservative assumptions would indicate that the EOHO scheme may have caused up to 69,008 infections directly and indirectly between calendar weeks 32 and 40."
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073

    kle4 said:

    Shame the last thread ended sp suddenly.

    Anyhow, more posters of kidnapped Israelis being ripped down by some lovely people. Leicester Square, this time:

    https://twitter.com/richferrer/status/1716925743413010698

    I find that behaviour particularly hard to understand. If someone thinks Israel should not defend itself (or that what it is doing in seeking that is disproportionate collective retribution, not defence) then that is one thing. It ranges from the awful to maybe having a point in some parts.

    But to go out of your way to remove images of kidnapped hostages? Why? What possible non-awful reason can there be for that? Do they think the people are not captured? Do they think its a good thing they are? Do they want to pretend the massacre never happened so they can use decades old lines without variation?
    Perhaps in part because the posters make it clear that Israelis can be victims, too. This muddies the rather clear waters in their brain cell, which states clearly that Israelis are the aggressors, and Palestinians the victims.

    And perhaps a healthy dose of ye olde anti-Semitism.
    There is certainly an effort to erase the Israeli victims. There was an extended interview with an otherwise decent guy in Gaza on PM yesterday who genuinely appeared to believe that the Hamas raid had targeted only the Israeli military.
    (FWIW my impression was that he had been lied to rather than was lying - but clearly was a receptive audience for Hamas' lies.)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,270
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    A

    kle4 said:

    Shame the last thread ended sp suddenly.

    Anyhow, more posters of kidnapped Israelis being ripped down by some lovely people. Leicester Square, this time:

    https://twitter.com/richferrer/status/1716925743413010698

    I find that behaviour particularly hard to understand. If someone thinks Israel should not defend itself (or that what it is doing in seeking that is disproportionate collective retribution, not defence) then that is one thing. It ranges from the awful to maybe having a point in some parts.

    But to go out of your way to remove images of kidnapped hostages? Why? What possible non-awful reason can there be for that? Do they think the people are not captured? Do they think its a good thing they are? Do they want to pretend the massacre never happened so they can use decades old lines without variation?
    People used tried to claim it was racist to translate Arabic language newspaper articles into English. Which were often very, very racist. The official English language version of the papers would often not carry the articles.

    Apparently “context” is very important in racist crap - some stuff isn’t meant for outsiders, I suppose.
    That sounds like the tourist sites in Istanbul, which would have a sign in Turkish (only) saying that Turkish citizens got a 90% discount. Many of the restaurants likely had two menus as well, because I don’t think the locals were paying £7 for a beer.
    No - quite a few counties have differential rates for locals/tourists. That’s perfectly reasonable in poorer countries. A common one is free entry to museums to locals.

    I’m talking about the kind of racist filth that would, in the U.K., have you in court. And no one would argue it was “fair comment”.
    One of the Iranian TV channels got shut down by OFCOM for that, after they commissioned a formal translation of the programming in their own languages.
    Incidentally the Siege of Chiswick Park is still on going.

    http://www.chiswickw4.com/default.asp?section=info&page=concbp090.htm

    I'm curious. At what point of threatening etc, is it OK for me to blow up Kharg Island, because they made me do it?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    biggles said:

    Is the closing down of the previous thread, such that the header can’t even be read on vanilla, (not something I have seen before) a deliberate “joke” based on the content?

    Somewhat intrigued as I missed this and can only see the first paragraph on vanilla.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    kinabalu said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic.
    I don't care how absurd replacing Sunak would be - they ARE absurd and will do it if they thought it would help.
    I don't think it will happen because who do you replace him with? Can the parliamentary party coalesce around a true winner? And either get that person through the members vote or get away without one?

    Sunak will be PM until January of 2025.

    The biggest problem is that there is no one obvious to take over in a coronation. Not that coronations tend to work anyway (Sunak, May, Brown...), and a contest would be a ridiculous indulgence.

    Sunak should call a GE in the spring. The longer this drags on the worse it gets.
    It makes sense to go to the country in the Spring.
    • November: Autumn Statement (or is it a Budget?) in which the Chancellor confirms the Triple Lock and an 8% increase in state pension for the core vote.
    • November: Flights resume to Rwanda.
    • December: Inflation falls to between 5% - 6% (roughly half of where it was).
    • Autumn/Winter: Number of boat crossings falls (though not stopped).
    • January: Close 50 hotels housing migrants appealing to the Right.
    • March: Close a further 50 hotels housing migrants (100 in total) appealing to the Right.
    • April: 8% increase kicks in.
    • April: Dissolve Parliament and call an Election as the Prime Minister who has halved inflation, stopped the boats, got rid of migrants and protected the Triple Lock.
    Of course, the fly in the ointment is the Supreme Court. If they rule against the Government on the Rwanda plan then the Government may be tempted to say "We can't close the hotels because we can't send them to Rwanda. We're being held back by an activist judiciary".
    This keeps being reported as 'closing hotels' but is that correct? I thought the idea is they go back to normal 'non migrant' business.
    Rwanda flights aren't November unless I've missed something.

    And I'm not sure a May election would allow you to claim the number of boats is down - you would need an election in March / early April latest to get away with using the lack of boats due to winter weather..
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    Taz said:

    Pulpstar said:

    (Very) off topic - I note stories of people approaching retirement age with interest only mortgages on their OO properties seem to be cropping up in the papers. You can smell the "missold" claims coming up a few years down the line from here, but I think people with an interest only mortgage knew exactly what it is they were buying tbh.

    Of course they did. Just as people in shared ownership or Help to Buy did.

    They made their bed. Etc etc.
    A lot of people seem to think it’s a basic human right to have a mortgage free home by the age of 50 no matter what terms you signed up for.

    If we were more sensible with the way we treated inherited wealth and elderly care in this country, these wouldn’t be as big factors.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    Taz said:

    Remember when Wetherspoons used to have big posters thanking “Dishy Rishi”?

    I do not know if Wetherspoons has a company motto, but "We'll do/say anything for money" might be a suitable choice for them...
    Given Eat out to Help out really helped the hospitality industry why shouldn't they say thanks.

    The industry has had a torrid time. Still does.
    EOTHO might have helped the hospitality industry but it did not help the rest of us much. It was a great spreader for covid. At the time I was astounded that they did it and I certainly did not avail myself of it either.

    But Wetherspoons made a lot of bad headlines during covid for how they treated their staff.
    I find this attitude bizarre. EOTHO was done in the summer, when you could eat outside, and helped an industry that was/is on its knees thanks to covid lockdowns. People were allowed to meet by then anyway, if it encouraged them to spend in pubs and restaurants rather than have dos at home, so much the better.

    Was one of the few good things Sunak has done.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,270

    tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    That seems an unfairly short time for @Alanbrooke's provocative header. He deserved longer.

    Yes, a very good and pertinent piece. Kay Burley on Sky News just mentioned that Save the Children won’t be happy with the uk government not calling for a ceasefire. Why should their opinion count any more than anyone else’s?
    The opinion of a charity specialising in easing children's suffering that current Israeli policy is causing massive suffering to children does seem relevant.

    Personally as one of the few MPs who was in both Labour Friends of Israel and Labour Friends of Palestine (I was on the executive of the former), I must say I'm losing sympathy with Israel despite the horrific Hamas atrocities. Frankly they should get on with the invasion if they're going to do it and then run the area they occupy until further notice, not just starve the population. And the refusal of a visa to a UN official "to teach them a lesson" sounds petulant and tin-eared.
    Did Save the Children make a statement about the Israeli children murdered and kidnapped?
    Wrong kind of children.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,090
    edited October 2023

    Taz said:

    Remember when Wetherspoons used to have big posters thanking “Dishy Rishi”?

    I do not know if Wetherspoons has a company motto, but "We'll do/say anything for money" might be a suitable choice for them...
    Given Eat out to Help out really helped the hospitality industry why shouldn't they say thanks.

    The industry has had a torrid time. Still does.
    EOTHO might have helped the hospitality industry but it did not help the rest of us much. It was a great spreader for covid. At the time I was astounded that they did it and I certainly did not avail myself of it either.

    But Wetherspoons made a lot of bad headlines during covid for how they treated their staff.
    https://academic.oup.com/ej/article/132/643/1200/6382847 "The above conservative assumptions would indicate that the EOHO scheme may have caused up to 69,008 infections directly and indirectly between calendar weeks 32 and 40."
    https://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/cepcovid-19-018.pdf "The results indicate that EOTHO induced higher footfall (by 5%-6%) associated with recreational activities, concentrated on specific days when the discount was available (Mondays to Wednesdays in August). However, the programme failed to encourage people to go out for other purposes and to eat out after the discount ended.

    "EOTHO also increased recruitment in the food preparation & service sector. We observe an increase in the number of jobs posts (by 7%-14%) on the Indeed website. We do not find evidence of an increase in the number of job posts in other industries, suggesting the effect on recruitment was concentrated on food establishments. As this indicator measures the flow of job adverts, a transitory effect on job posts could still imply a permanent increase in the number of employees.

    "Over 160 million meals were claimed by the end of September 2020, with government spending £849 million on the policy. Data limitations as well as the interaction between different policies complicate any cost-benefit calculation of the programme. On top of that, there is evidence indicating the increase in footfall due to EOTHO had an adverse effect on new COVID-19 cases. Thus, any economic gains from the scheme may have come at the cost of more infections. Further research – using administrative data– is needed to assess the overall cost-effectiveness of EOTHO."
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    biggles said:

    Is the closing down of the previous thread, such that the header can’t even be read on vanilla, (not something I have seen before) a deliberate “joke” based on the content?

    I can read the previous thread just fine. I just looked when I read your comment.

    Perhaps your computer is having a laugh? Time to switch it off and on again methinks :wink:
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    Taz said:

    Remember when Wetherspoons used to have big posters thanking “Dishy Rishi”?

    I do not know if Wetherspoons has a company motto, but "We'll do/say anything for money" might be a suitable choice for them...
    Given Eat out to Help out really helped the hospitality industry why shouldn't they say thanks.

    The industry has had a torrid time. Still does.
    EOTHO might have helped the hospitality industry but it did not help the rest of us much. It was a great spreader for covid. At the time I was astounded that they did it and I certainly did not avail myself of it either.

    But Wetherspoons made a lot of bad headlines during covid for how they treated their staff.
    https://academic.oup.com/ej/article/132/643/1200/6382847 "The above conservative assumptions would indicate that the EOHO scheme may have caused up to 69,008 infections directly and indirectly between calendar weeks 32 and 40."
    Eh? People caught it eventually anyway surely? Unless you have evidence that it caused excess deaths?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,568
    edited October 2023

    After having spent five hours and £500 at Ikea yesterday, I'm now in Ikea build hell.

    Last time I did this, I was in hospital with meningitis the next day.

    (Correlation != causation...)

    The wife buying flat packs without consultation, then standing over you questioning the lack of progress as you try to make sense of a poor translation from Mandarin via Swahili, is a well known ground for divorce....
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,362
    DavidL said:

    That seems an unfairly short time for @Alanbrooke's provocative header. He deserved longer.

    I can't read it in full. Claims not to exist. Perhaps it can be republished this afternoon/evening?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    biggles said:

    Is the closing down of the previous thread, such that the header can’t even be read on vanilla, (not something I have seen before) a deliberate “joke” based on the content?

    No.
    TSE has already said there was a mixup, and he'll be republishing it later on. Probably a consequence of that.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    algarkirk said:

    Two memorable bits from R4 Today this morning. The comment by Nick R after an interview with a lovely and distressed woman in Gaza who worked for Oxfam that 'she was not willing to discuss Hamas'; secondly the Palestinian woman interviewed, not in Gaza, and asked about her thoughts on the 7th October killings: "I will not answer that question".

    Elephants in rooms.

    It’s exactly like Northern Ireland - when asked about the latest atrocity by X, it was telling when the talking head from X would start talking about anything else.

    Even trying to get them to say something like “we condemn all violence” was apparently rude.
    When people who are deeply invested in Palestinian freedom are asked about condemning Hamas or October 7th directly, and they don't answer, it is not because they condone Hamas - it is because it immediately shifts the conversation to the premise that the lives of Israelis matter and the lives of Palestinians do not. Because for most people it is a given that what Hamas did was unacceptable, but we still have to debate whether the acts of the IDF and state of Israel over decades are unacceptable because most of the power structure supports them.

    As we have seen in conversations here over the last fortnight, no matter how much anyone sympathetic to the Palestinian cause says what Hamas did was atrocious, but that the loss of civilian life in Palestine is not an acceptable reaction, the response is always - well, does Israel not have the right to defend itself? What else is Israel supposed to do? Should Israel have to put up with a neighbour that wishes to wipe them out? Which makes no sense when Israel is by far the best funded military in the area, backed by the US, and controls most of the borders of Gaza and the West Bank. It has been a source of contention for years that the UN and other international bodies will repeatedly point to Israeli treatment of the Palestinians as a problem, as crimes, as illegal under international law - and yet they can because they are supported by the global superpower.

    I was listening to someone talk about this yesterday, which kind of crystalised the madness of this to me. Gaza is not a recognised state - not by Israel and not by the international community at large (some individual states do, but only some). Were Gaza a state the acts of Israel over the last decade would be grounds for Gaza to declare war on Israel - the blockades and sieges, the killing of Palestinians on their land, the incursions onto their land, etc.

    But Gaza is not a state, it is an occupied area - occupied by Israel. If it is occupied land, then Israel cannot be at war with it - at best it would be managing its occupied territories, it has obligations under international law. Under international law an occupying power cannot be "provoked" by those it occupies in to war. So, by casting Gaza as this state-that-is-not-a-state Israeli policy towards it can be both the justification for treating Gaza and the Palestinians there inhumanely, whilst at the same time saying that their reactions to that treatment are a justification for more of the same.

    Again, what Hamas did earlier this month was abominable, a crime itself - but the treatment of civilian Palestinians prior to that and now are bigger "elephants in the room" in my mind then repeatedly condemning Hamas and then going "and therefore that means Israel can do ______"
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    So part of Gray's indoor market was turned into Flats a few years ago.

    They've managed to make the flats look like Market Stalls https://www.bairstoweves.co.uk/properties/15419208/sales/GRA210539#/
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727

    After having spent five hours and £500 at Ikea yesterday, I'm now in Ikea build hell.

    Last time I did this, I was in hospital with meningitis the next day.

    (Correlation != causation...)

    The wife buying flat packs without consultation, then standing over you questioning the lack of progress as you try to make sense of a poor translation from Mandarin via Swahili, is a well known ground for divorce....
    I'm puzzled by these posts. Ikea furnitute construction is one of the joys of life, to be done with a beer in a zen like state of contentedness and bliss :smile:

    Ikea skip the language translation problems anyway by simply giving only pictures.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    edited October 2023

    On topic - I suspect so because I don’t think the Tories could pull off another coup without the whole country giving up on them now. 4 PMs in a parliament is patently ridiculous.

    BUT:

    I think there is a case, if Sunak is facing all but certain defeat, where he might quit as Tory leader but not PM, and let a new candidate fight the GE.

    Technically, that allows him to avoid the heavy loss and he can have some legacy on the after dinner speech circuit as coming in as a crisis manager etc without the difficult footnote that he led his party to a landslide defeat.

    I do not put it past Sunak or the Tory Party to try a wheeze like that to present themselves as the change candidates in the election.

    Sunak resigning and forcing a leadership contest is a different vibe from the Party knifing Sunak and having a leadership contest.

    Still damaging to what is left of the Tory rep. But perhaps less damaging :D
    I can plausibly see a scenario where Rishi hands the reigns over to Braverman to fight 2024, where she will promptly run a Trumpian “drain the swamp” campaign.

    The only question is whether she wants to take the chance to fight a campaign for a dying government or wants a 5 year reign as LOTO first.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    Selebian said:

    After having spent five hours and £500 at Ikea yesterday, I'm now in Ikea build hell.

    Last time I did this, I was in hospital with meningitis the next day.

    (Correlation != causation...)

    The wife buying flat packs without consultation, then standing over you questioning the lack of progress as you try to make sense of a poor translation from Mandarin via Swahili, is a well known ground for divorce....
    I'm puzzled by these posts. Ikea furnitute construction is one of the joys of life, to be done with a beer in a zen like state of contentedness and bliss :smile:

    Ikea skip the language translation problems anyway by simply giving only pictures.
    Years back the MiL bought some very expensive bedroom furniture that came flat packed from Germany. Even though I can read German reasonably well the instructions made zero sense. Even after doublechecking with every online translation tool I could find.

    But I've never had a problem with Ikea furniture and the pictures. Just remember to look from all angles if the picture doesn't make sense...
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,362
    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    Many roads on the island are now impassable due to water, say R4. Still raining heavily

    Hurricane Otis has been the fastest concentrating hurricane on record and is set to do catastrophic things to southern Mexico: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-67213103

    Storm Babet brought flooding to Dundee that I had not seen the like of in the more than 40 years I have lived here. Only 3 years ago Storm Arwen did terrible damage to our woods.

    There is so much more energy in weather systems now that what used to be extreme events are becoming the new normal. The implications for our already creaking infrastructure and future developments are severe. It is yet another major cost that we will have to address once we have a functioning government again.
    Would have been cheaper to switch away from fossil fuels a bit faster.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163

    On topic - I suspect so because I don’t think the Tories could pull off another coup without the whole country giving up on them now. 4 PMs in a parliament is patently ridiculous.

    BUT:

    I think there is a case, if Sunak is facing all but certain defeat, where he might quit as Tory leader but not PM, and let a new candidate fight the GE.

    Technically, that allows him to avoid the heavy loss and he can have some legacy on the after dinner speech circuit as coming in as a crisis manager etc without the difficult footnote that he led his party to a landslide defeat.

    I do not put it past Sunak or the Tory Party to try a wheeze like that to present themselves as the change candidates in the election.

    Sunak resigning and forcing a leadership contest is a different vibe from the Party knifing Sunak and having a leadership contest.

    Still damaging to what is left of the Tory rep. But perhaps less damaging :D
    I can plausibly see a scenario where Rishi hands the reigns over to Braverman to fight 2024, where she will promptly run a Trumpian “drain the swamp” campaign.
    Braverman??? Really :open_mouth:

    What should the UK version of Krystalnacht be called? We might want to start researching it early.

  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    I've just heard on radio news (Deutschlandfunk) that the Rusian parliament has voted to break from the agreement not to carry out nuclear tests. (Reported by Reuters)

    The news just seems to get worse day by day, bit by bit.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163

    Taz said:

    Remember when Wetherspoons used to have big posters thanking “Dishy Rishi”?

    I do not know if Wetherspoons has a company motto, but "We'll do/say anything for money" might be a suitable choice for them...
    Given Eat out to Help out really helped the hospitality industry why shouldn't they say thanks.

    The industry has had a torrid time. Still does.
    EOTHO might have helped the hospitality industry but it did not help the rest of us much. It was a great spreader for covid. At the time I was astounded that they did it and I certainly did not avail myself of it either.

    But Wetherspoons made a lot of bad headlines during covid for how they treated their staff.
    https://academic.oup.com/ej/article/132/643/1200/6382847 "The above conservative assumptions would indicate that the EOHO scheme may have caused up to 69,008 infections directly and indirectly between calendar weeks 32 and 40."
    Eh? People caught it eventually anyway surely? Unless you have evidence that it caused excess deaths?
    Timing is everything. Infecting people before there was a vaccine is rather different to a vaccinated person catching it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    What is happening at PB?

    I log on. Find @Alanbrooke wrote a compelling but contentious header, which got prematurely shut down. When I look for it, the piece has actually disappeared?!

    This has the whiff of censorship. I’m sure I’m wrong and it will be restored and republished
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,090

    Taz said:

    Remember when Wetherspoons used to have big posters thanking “Dishy Rishi”?

    I do not know if Wetherspoons has a company motto, but "We'll do/say anything for money" might be a suitable choice for them...
    Given Eat out to Help out really helped the hospitality industry why shouldn't they say thanks.

    The industry has had a torrid time. Still does.
    EOTHO might have helped the hospitality industry but it did not help the rest of us much. It was a great spreader for covid. At the time I was astounded that they did it and I certainly did not avail myself of it either.

    But Wetherspoons made a lot of bad headlines during covid for how they treated their staff.
    https://academic.oup.com/ej/article/132/643/1200/6382847 "The above conservative assumptions would indicate that the EOHO scheme may have caused up to 69,008 infections directly and indirectly between calendar weeks 32 and 40."
    Eh? People caught it eventually anyway surely? Unless you have evidence that it caused excess deaths?
    You forget the impact of the vaccines. If you delay cases past vaccination, you can either stop people catching the virus or when they do so, it is much less serious. Those ~69k infections happened before vaccination. Without EOTHO, most of those people would have gotten to vaccination without getting infected.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    eristdoof said:

    I've just heard on radio news (Deutschlandfunk) that the Rusian parliament has voted to break from the agreement not to carry out nuclear tests. (Reported by Reuters)

    The news just seems to get worse day by day, bit by bit.

    They’ve been saying that for months, TBF

    Of course that does mean they might actually do it, eventually
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    Nigelb said:

    biggles said:

    Is the closing down of the previous thread, such that the header can’t even be read on vanilla, (not something I have seen before) a deliberate “joke” based on the content?

    No.
    TSE has already said there was a mixup, and he'll be republishing it later on. Probably a consequence of that.
    It's happened a few times in the past - I think it's hard from Wordpress's backend to work out how recently the last thread was opened up...
  • kinabalu said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic.
    I don't care how absurd replacing Sunak would be - they ARE absurd and will do it if they thought it would help.
    I don't think it will happen because who do you replace him with? Can the parliamentary party coalesce around a true winner? And either get that person through the members vote or get away without one?

    Sunak will be PM until January of 2025.

    The biggest problem is that there is no one obvious to take over in a coronation. Not that coronations tend to work anyway (Sunak, May, Brown...), and a contest would be a ridiculous indulgence.

    Sunak should call a GE in the spring. The longer this drags on the worse it gets.
    It makes sense to go to the country in the Spring.
    • November: Autumn Statement (or is it a Budget?) in which the Chancellor confirms the Triple Lock and an 8% increase in state pension for the core vote.
    • November: Flights resume to Rwanda.
    • December: Inflation falls to between 5% - 6% (roughly half of where it was).
    • Autumn/Winter: Number of boat crossings falls (though not stopped).
    • January: Close 50 hotels housing migrants appealing to the Right.
    • March: Close a further 50 hotels housing migrants (100 in total) appealing to the Right.
    • April: 8% increase kicks in.
    • April: Dissolve Parliament and call an Election as the Prime Minister who has halved inflation, stopped the boats, got rid of migrants and protected the Triple Lock.
    Of course, the fly in the ointment is the Supreme Court. If they rule against the Government on the Rwanda plan then the Government may be tempted to say "We can't close the hotels because we can't send them to Rwanda. We're being held back by an activist judiciary".
    This keeps being reported as 'closing hotels' but is that correct? I thought the idea is they go back to normal 'non migrant' business.
    It's poorly phrased both my myself and the Government. It's a return to 'non-migrant' business but "closing the migrant hotels" sounds a lot better from a PR approach.

    God. I'm doing the Government's job for them. Get a grip.
  • tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    That seems an unfairly short time for @Alanbrooke's provocative header. He deserved longer.

    Yes, a very good and pertinent piece. Kay Burley on Sky News just mentioned that Save the Children won’t be happy with the uk government not calling for a ceasefire. Why should their opinion count any more than anyone else’s?
    The opinion of a charity specialising in easing children's suffering that current Israeli policy is causing massive suffering to children does seem relevant.

    Personally as one of the few MPs who was in both Labour Friends of Israel and Labour Friends of Palestine (I was on the executive of the former), I must say I'm losing sympathy with Israel despite the horrific Hamas atrocities. Frankly they should get on with the invasion if they're going to do it and then run the area they occupy until further notice, not just starve the population. And the refusal of a visa to a UN official "to teach them a lesson" sounds petulant and tin-eared.
    Did Save the Children make a statement about the Israeli children murdered and kidnapped?
    Children are always the first to suffer in any conflict – the stories coming out of Israel and the oPt is the stuff of nightmares. Children are paying the highest price for a conflict they have no part in.
    https://www.savethechildren.net/news/children-are-paying-heaviest-price-violence-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territory-escalates
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    On topic.

    The Tory MPs are obviously considering what happens if Sunak were to be ousted. Having had 3 PMs in under 4 years, chosing another one would be a public display of desperation, which is almost always a vote loser.

    As Mike keeps on hinting, the challenge for the Tories is to convice the don't knows and the will not vote's who voted Tory in 2019 to vote Tory again. Is this group really going to be impressed by there being yet another ousting of PM, a leadership challendge and a new PM?
This discussion has been closed.