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Sunak’s epitaph? A terrible Prime Minister but not as bad as Truss or Johnson – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,163
edited October 2023 in General
Sunak’s epitaph? A terrible Prime Minister but not as bad as Truss or Johnson – politicalbetting.com

After 1 year as PM, how has Rishi Sunak's reputation changed? % of Britons who say he is…Competent: 34% (-16 from Oct 2022)Decisive: 30% (-23)Honest: 27% (-8)Authentic: 23% (-8)Strong: 20% (-19)Trustworthy: 20% (-10)In touch: 9% (-4) pic.twitter.com/t6TqSxHU4O

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Comments

  • First like Starmer.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    "Worse than Gordon Brown", sheesh.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    I'd classify him as 'average'. Truss Terrible, Johnson Poor of recent PMs.
  • Blair seems to do very well in this format yet also near the bottom of most popular modern PMs.

    Thatcher 34, Johnson 29, Brown 24, Major 24, Cameron 18, Blair 18, May 15

    https://yougov.co.uk/ratings/politics/popularity/UK-prime-ministers/all
  • On the odd chance that some oddball on here is still interested in election results . . .

    Argentina General Election - for President (top two qualify for runoff)
    source Wiki, with 100% reported:

    Sergio Massa Union for the Homeland (UP) 9,645,983 36.7%
    Javier Milei Liberty Advances (LLA) 7,884,336 30.0%
    Patricia Bullrich Together for Change (JxC) 6,267,152 23.84
    Juan Schiaretti We Do for Our Country (HNP) 1,784,315 6.8%
    Myriam Bregman Workers' Left Front (FIT) 709,932 2.7%
    Total 26,291,718 100% of valid votes
    Valid votes 26,291,718 97.0%
    Invalid votes 254,796 0.9%
    Blank votes 554,161 2.1%
    Total votes 27,100,675 100% of total votes
    Registered voters/turnout 35,410,080 76.5%

    NOTE that Trump wanna-be Milei seriously underperformed, leastways based on pre-election polling; on the other hand, Massa of the governing (in a manner of speaking) Peronist party got a bit over 1/3 of valid votes cast which is pretty crummy for functional incumbent.

    Perhaps the most interesting results are shown on the maps at this link
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2023_Argentina_General_Election_map.svg

    As you can see for yourselves

    > Sergio Massa (aka Cristina Kirchner with a pretty face) was strongest in northern Argentina, in particular in provinces of Santiago del Estero, Formosa, Catamarca, Corrientes.

    > Javier Milei (Fucker Carlson's favorite) was strongest in western Argentina, especially in provinces of Mendoza and San Luis, also in Santa Fe and Missiones in northeast, and Salta in northwest.

    > Patricia Bullich (the best choice IMHO) came in first in just metro Buenos Aires, but she also did well in Buenos Aires province where she was second (I think) behind Milei.

    Sadly, the Islas Malvinas were denied opportunity to vote this election, but "residents" of Antártida Argentina cast their votes for Milei; methinks they'd been better advised to cast their spare penguin shit at him!
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,494
    Nigelb said:

    "Worse than Gordon Brown", sheesh.

    At the time I thought that there couldn't be a PM worse than GB. since 2016 the Tories have been constantly 'Hold my beer!'.

    I'm kind of looking forward to a dull PM in Starmer. that being said I suspect that his cabinet will be anything but dull...
  • Blair seems to do very well in this format yet also near the bottom of most popular modern PMs.

    Thatcher 34, Johnson 29, Brown 24, Major 24, Cameron 18, Blair 18, May 15

    https://yougov.co.uk/ratings/politics/popularity/UK-prime-ministers/all

    The Polling of Dorian Blair. (Or is it Tony Gray?)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969
    Sunak now rated as a worse PM than May and Brown and while he may be more competent than Johnson he lacks Boris' campaigning skills which won him a landslide victory while Sunak looks to be heading for defeat
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    I shall never look disfavourably on Newent again
  • . . . and another one bites the dust . . .

    AP (via Seattle Times) - Jenna Ellis becomes latest Trump lawyer to plead guilty over efforts to overturn Georgia’s election

    ATLANTA (AP) — Attorney and prominent conservative media figure Jenna Ellis pleaded guilty on Tuesday to a felony charge over efforts to overturn Donald Trump’s 2020 election loss in Georgia, tearfully telling the judge she looks back on that time with “deep remorse.”

    Ellis, the fourth defendant in the case to enter into a plea deal, was a vocal part of Trump’s reelection campaign in the last presidential cycle and was charged alongside the Republican former president and 17 others with violating the state’s anti-racketeering law.

    Ellis pleaded guilty to one felony count of aiding and abetting false statements and writings. She had been facing charges of violating Georgia’s Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act and soliciting the violation of oath by a public officer, both felonies.

    She rose to speak after pleading guilty, fighting back tears as she said she would have not have represented Trump after the 2020 election if she knew then what she knows now, claiming that she she relied on lawyers with much more experience than her and failed to verify the things they told her.

    “What I did not do but should have done, Your Honor, was to make sure that the facts the other lawyers alleged to be true were in fact true,” the 38-year-old Ellis said.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    edited October 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Sunak now rated as a worse PM than May and Brown and while he may be more competent than Johnson he lacks Boris' campaigning skills which won him a landslide victory while Sunak looks to be heading for defeat

    You make the assumption that Bozo won the last election.

    No he didn't - he was just the least worst option after Corbyn's honeymoon had well and truly finished...

    Heck Corbyn only did well in 2017 because May ran one of the worst election campaigns of all time - committing electoral suicide by introducing a death tax to pay for social care.
  • "Boris' campaigning skills"

    translation = lying, cheating, stealing for personal/political fun and profit - same as his role model Trump.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,360
    I'd class him as average, which is the same as mediocre.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,558
    FPT
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Still needs the support of Catalan nationalists for a majority and they are demanding pardons for those charged with involvement in the illegal 2017 Catalan independence referendum and UDI declaration as the price of support

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/spains-socialists-roll-dice-catalan-amnesty-bid-power-2023-09-29/

    It'll be interesting to see how long they can continue without having another election.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370

    . . . and another one bites the dust . . .

    AP (via Seattle Times) - Jenna Ellis becomes latest Trump lawyer to plead guilty over efforts to overturn Georgia’s election

    ATLANTA (AP) — Attorney and prominent conservative media figure Jenna Ellis pleaded guilty on Tuesday to a felony charge over efforts to overturn Donald Trump’s 2020 election loss in Georgia, tearfully telling the judge she looks back on that time with “deep remorse.”

    Ellis, the fourth defendant in the case to enter into a plea deal, was a vocal part of Trump’s reelection campaign in the last presidential cycle and was charged alongside the Republican former president and 17 others with violating the state’s anti-racketeering law.

    Ellis pleaded guilty to one felony count of aiding and abetting false statements and writings. She had been facing charges of violating Georgia’s Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act and soliciting the violation of oath by a public officer, both felonies.

    She rose to speak after pleading guilty, fighting back tears as she said she would have not have represented Trump after the 2020 election if she knew then what she knows now, claiming that she she relied on lawyers with much more experience than her and failed to verify the things they told her.

    “What I did not do but should have done, Your Honor, was to make sure that the facts the other lawyers alleged to be true were in fact true,” the 38-year-old Ellis said.

    I suspect everyone they wish to use against Trump will be offered (and accept) a plea bargain.

    Leaving the final case to be all the original defendants offering evidence against Trump and Rudy...
  • eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak now rated as a worse PM than May and Brown and while he may be more competent than Johnson he lacks Boris' campaigning skills which won him a landslide victory while Sunak looks to be heading for defeat

    You make the assumption that Bozo won the last election.

    No he didn't - he was just the least worst option after Corbyn's honeymoon had well and truly finished...

    Heck Corbyn only did well in 2017 because May ran one of the worst election campaigns of all time - committing electoral suicide by introducing a death tax to pay for social care.
    No. Theresa May lost the 2017 election when she axed thousands of coppers and then there were two terrorist (see the last thread for a definition) outrages during the election campaign itself.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,360
    Andy_JS said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Still needs the support of Catalan nationalists for a majority and they are demanding pardons for those charged with involvement in the illegal 2017 Catalan independence referendum and UDI declaration as the price of support

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/spains-socialists-roll-dice-catalan-amnesty-bid-power-2023-09-29/

    It'll be interesting to see how long they can continue without having another election.
    Sometimes it's better to step down, rather than cling to power with the backing of people who are hugely unpopular with the general public. It just sets you up for a bigger defeat, down the line.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,648
    There are an increasing number of voices raising the alarm over the electoral consequences for the Democrats over Biden's support for Israel.

    https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/biden-israel-palestine-policy-election/

    Biden risks labeling himself as a president who is in favor of colonization, and one who will turn a blind eye to ethnic cleansing and war crimes—and those are tough labels to shake once they take hold in communities of color.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    Leon said:

    I shall never look disfavourably on Newent again

    You’ve resolved to drive only through Huntley in future?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    edited October 2023
    Bangladesh getting an absolute shellacking. How will they cope if Tamim decides he really has had enough?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161

    There are an increasing number of voices raising the alarm over the electoral consequences for the Democrats over Biden's support for Israel.

    https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/biden-israel-palestine-policy-election/

    Biden risks labeling himself as a president who is in favor of colonization, and one who will turn a blind eye to ethnic cleansing and war crimes—and those are tough labels to shake once they take hold in communities of color.

    Yes, it is a significant risk for Biden; it could well see lots of young progressives (who would otherwise be motivated by abortion) stay home.

    It's also a significant longer-term risk for Israel. If there are no longer votes in defending Israel, then it suddenly looks a lot more vulnerable than it did.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,494

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak now rated as a worse PM than May and Brown and while he may be more competent than Johnson he lacks Boris' campaigning skills which won him a landslide victory while Sunak looks to be heading for defeat

    You make the assumption that Bozo won the last election.

    No he didn't - he was just the least worst option after Corbyn's honeymoon had well and truly finished...

    Heck Corbyn only did well in 2017 because May ran one of the worst election campaigns of all time - committing electoral suicide by introducing a death tax to pay for social care.
    No. Theresa May lost the 2017 election when she axed thousands of coppers and then there were two terrorist (see the last thread for a definition) outrages during the election campaign itself.
    the problem with 2017 was the general public never believed JC could win which led to TM believing that she could do anything and put out the most unpopular manifesto of all time. losing her the majority in a 1 horse race.

    on the the flip side the reverse was true for BJ. people truly believed that JC could win and it put people off Labour as much as his rhetoric about 'get brexit done' attracted them to the Tories.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    Ooh. Syracuse is pretty tho
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161

    On the odd chance that some oddball on here is still interested in election results . . .

    Argentina General Election - for President (top two qualify for runoff)
    source Wiki, with 100% reported:

    Sergio Massa Union for the Homeland (UP) 9,645,983 36.7%
    Javier Milei Liberty Advances (LLA) 7,884,336 30.0%
    Patricia Bullrich Together for Change (JxC) 6,267,152 23.84
    Juan Schiaretti We Do for Our Country (HNP) 1,784,315 6.8%
    Myriam Bregman Workers' Left Front (FIT) 709,932 2.7%
    Total 26,291,718 100% of valid votes
    Valid votes 26,291,718 97.0%
    Invalid votes 254,796 0.9%
    Blank votes 554,161 2.1%
    Total votes 27,100,675 100% of total votes
    Registered voters/turnout 35,410,080 76.5%

    NOTE that Trump wanna-be Milei seriously underperformed, leastways based on pre-election polling; on the other hand, Massa of the governing (in a manner of speaking) Peronist party got a bit over 1/3 of valid votes cast which is pretty crummy for functional incumbent.

    Perhaps the most interesting results are shown on the maps at this link
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2023_Argentina_General_Election_map.svg

    As you can see for yourselves

    > Sergio Massa (aka Cristina Kirchner with a pretty face) was strongest in northern Argentina, in particular in provinces of Santiago del Estero, Formosa, Catamarca, Corrientes.

    > Javier Milei (Fucker Carlson's favorite) was strongest in western Argentina, especially in provinces of Mendoza and San Luis, also in Santa Fe and Missiones in northeast, and Salta in northwest.

    > Patricia Bullich (the best choice IMHO) came in first in just metro Buenos Aires, but she also did well in Buenos Aires province where she was second (I think) behind Milei.

    Sadly, the Islas Malvinas were denied opportunity to vote this election, but "residents" of Antártida Argentina cast their votes for Milei; methinks they'd been better advised to cast their spare penguin shit at him!

    I'd probably vote for Myriam Bregman, because while I'm sure I'd agree with none of her policies, at least I know her political leanings from her party name. The others? I have literally no idea.
  • Blair seems to do very well in this format yet also near the bottom of most popular modern PMs.

    Thatcher 34, Johnson 29, Brown 24, Major 24, Cameron 18, Blair 18, May 15

    https://yougov.co.uk/ratings/politics/popularity/UK-prime-ministers/all

    Blair will forever have his Iraq adventure as a major blot on his reputation.
    Tony Blair's fate in future memory will be similar to that of David Lloyd George;

    His merits as a politico and PM being overshadowed by his demerits, the more so as time moves on.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161

    Blair seems to do very well in this format yet also near the bottom of most popular modern PMs.

    Thatcher 34, Johnson 29, Brown 24, Major 24, Cameron 18, Blair 18, May 15

    https://yougov.co.uk/ratings/politics/popularity/UK-prime-ministers/all

    Blair will forever have his Iraq adventure as a major blot on his reputation.
    Tony Blair's fate in future memory will be similar to that of David Lloyd George;

    His merits as a politico and PM being overshadowed by his demerits, the more so as time moves on.
    Tony Blair knew my father?
  • eek said:

    . . . and another one bites the dust . . .

    AP (via Seattle Times) - Jenna Ellis becomes latest Trump lawyer to plead guilty over efforts to overturn Georgia’s election

    ATLANTA (AP) — Attorney and prominent conservative media figure Jenna Ellis pleaded guilty on Tuesday to a felony charge over efforts to overturn Donald Trump’s 2020 election loss in Georgia, tearfully telling the judge she looks back on that time with “deep remorse.”

    Ellis, the fourth defendant in the case to enter into a plea deal, was a vocal part of Trump’s reelection campaign in the last presidential cycle and was charged alongside the Republican former president and 17 others with violating the state’s anti-racketeering law.

    Ellis pleaded guilty to one felony count of aiding and abetting false statements and writings. She had been facing charges of violating Georgia’s Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act and soliciting the violation of oath by a public officer, both felonies.

    She rose to speak after pleading guilty, fighting back tears as she said she would have not have represented Trump after the 2020 election if she knew then what she knows now, claiming that she she relied on lawyers with much more experience than her and failed to verify the things they told her.

    “What I did not do but should have done, Your Honor, was to make sure that the facts the other lawyers alleged to be true were in fact true,” the 38-year-old Ellis said.

    I suspect everyone they wish to use against Trump will be offered (and accept) a plea bargain.

    Leaving the final case to be all the original defendants offering evidence against Trump and Rudy...
    Nice establishment way to get them all minimal sentences. Trump acquitted on a hung jury, Rudy the patsy, the rest serve mostly (all?) probation.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    I want to live here forever
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    eek said:

    . . . and another one bites the dust . . .

    AP (via Seattle Times) - Jenna Ellis becomes latest Trump lawyer to plead guilty over efforts to overturn Georgia’s election

    ATLANTA (AP) — Attorney and prominent conservative media figure Jenna Ellis pleaded guilty on Tuesday to a felony charge over efforts to overturn Donald Trump’s 2020 election loss in Georgia, tearfully telling the judge she looks back on that time with “deep remorse.”

    Ellis, the fourth defendant in the case to enter into a plea deal, was a vocal part of Trump’s reelection campaign in the last presidential cycle and was charged alongside the Republican former president and 17 others with violating the state’s anti-racketeering law.

    Ellis pleaded guilty to one felony count of aiding and abetting false statements and writings. She had been facing charges of violating Georgia’s Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act and soliciting the violation of oath by a public officer, both felonies.

    She rose to speak after pleading guilty, fighting back tears as she said she would have not have represented Trump after the 2020 election if she knew then what she knows now, claiming that she she relied on lawyers with much more experience than her and failed to verify the things they told her.

    “What I did not do but should have done, Your Honor, was to make sure that the facts the other lawyers alleged to be true were in fact true,” the 38-year-old Ellis said.

    I suspect everyone they wish to use against Trump will be offered (and accept) a plea bargain.

    Leaving the final case to be all the original defendants offering evidence against Trump and Rudy...
    Yet he is still the 2.9 fav for the WH. That price, for me, is one of the wonders of the world. I can sit looking at it for hours.
  • Some PBers apparently unaware, that The Nation has been in Putin's hip-pocket for some time.

    For example (just one) . . .
    NY Magazine - The Nation’s Stephen F. Cohen Denies Existence of Ukraine

    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2014/08/stephen-f-cohen-denies-existence-of-ukraine.html
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    rcs1000 said:

    Blair seems to do very well in this format yet also near the bottom of most popular modern PMs.

    Thatcher 34, Johnson 29, Brown 24, Major 24, Cameron 18, Blair 18, May 15

    https://yougov.co.uk/ratings/politics/popularity/UK-prime-ministers/all

    Blair will forever have his Iraq adventure as a major blot on his reputation.
    Tony Blair's fate in future memory will be similar to that of David Lloyd George;

    His merits as a politico and PM being overshadowed by his demerits, the more so as time moves on.
    Tony Blair knew my father?
    Stop being so Cherie.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    Leon said:

    I want to live here forever

    No one lives forever.
    Though if it's a really slow train, it might feel like it.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,149
    edited October 2023

    Blair seems to do very well in this format yet also near the bottom of most popular modern PMs.

    Thatcher 34, Johnson 29, Brown 24, Major 24, Cameron 18, Blair 18, May 15

    https://yougov.co.uk/ratings/politics/popularity/UK-prime-ministers/all

    Blair will forever have his Iraq adventure as a major blot on his reputation.
    Tony Blair's fate in future memory will be similar to that of David Lloyd George;

    His merits as a politico and PM being overshadowed by his demerits, the more so as time moves on.
    Does Lloyd-George really have that bad an historical reputation? He has a complex one, certainly, but he left behind major achievements (a World War won, a welfare state founded) as well as a certain amount of wreckage.

    It's may be rather early to assess Blair. But, arguably, he's in a very different position to Lloyd-George in the sense that potentially we'll be talking about the strange lack of a legacy.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    kinabalu said:

    eek said:

    . . . and another one bites the dust . . .

    AP (via Seattle Times) - Jenna Ellis becomes latest Trump lawyer to plead guilty over efforts to overturn Georgia’s election

    ATLANTA (AP) — Attorney and prominent conservative media figure Jenna Ellis pleaded guilty on Tuesday to a felony charge over efforts to overturn Donald Trump’s 2020 election loss in Georgia, tearfully telling the judge she looks back on that time with “deep remorse.”

    Ellis, the fourth defendant in the case to enter into a plea deal, was a vocal part of Trump’s reelection campaign in the last presidential cycle and was charged alongside the Republican former president and 17 others with violating the state’s anti-racketeering law.

    Ellis pleaded guilty to one felony count of aiding and abetting false statements and writings. She had been facing charges of violating Georgia’s Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act and soliciting the violation of oath by a public officer, both felonies.

    She rose to speak after pleading guilty, fighting back tears as she said she would have not have represented Trump after the 2020 election if she knew then what she knows now, claiming that she she relied on lawyers with much more experience than her and failed to verify the things they told her.

    “What I did not do but should have done, Your Honor, was to make sure that the facts the other lawyers alleged to be true were in fact true,” the 38-year-old Ellis said.

    I suspect everyone they wish to use against Trump will be offered (and accept) a plea bargain.

    Leaving the final case to be all the original defendants offering evidence against Trump and Rudy...
    Yet he is still the 2.9 fav for the WH. That price, for me, is one of the wonders of the world. I can sit looking at it for hours.
    RFK-parody is similar odds to Haley. Which is still more nuts.
  • novanova Posts: 692

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak now rated as a worse PM than May and Brown and while he may be more competent than Johnson he lacks Boris' campaigning skills which won him a landslide victory while Sunak looks to be heading for defeat

    You make the assumption that Bozo won the last election.

    No he didn't - he was just the least worst option after Corbyn's honeymoon had well and truly finished...

    Heck Corbyn only did well in 2017 because May ran one of the worst election campaigns of all time - committing electoral suicide by introducing a death tax to pay for social care.
    No. Theresa May lost the 2017 election when she axed thousands of coppers and then there were two terrorist (see the last thread for a definition) outrages during the election campaign itself.
    Or perhaps there were multiple reasons?

    Both the Manchester bombing, and the manifesto/social care u-turn, happened around the same time, so picking one of those as the key is difficult. The downturn in support started at the manifesto, so it's possible the social care problems were the starter.

    The fall in Tory support however was small in comparison to the rise in Labour. Labour's rise also started as soon as the campaign started, and was steady throughout - suggesting that Corbyn wasn't simply benefiting from May's problems.

    I'm not much of a fan of Corbyn, but for one month he was on his best behaviour, and came across very well during the campaign, while May in contrast turned out to be a bit odd. Corbyn had been portrayed as a bit of a crazed lefty up till that point, but during a campaign where he avoided slip-ups and kept his temper in check for once, he got a second chance to make a first impression.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    eek said:

    . . . and another one bites the dust . . .

    AP (via Seattle Times) - Jenna Ellis becomes latest Trump lawyer to plead guilty over efforts to overturn Georgia’s election

    ATLANTA (AP) — Attorney and prominent conservative media figure Jenna Ellis pleaded guilty on Tuesday to a felony charge over efforts to overturn Donald Trump’s 2020 election loss in Georgia, tearfully telling the judge she looks back on that time with “deep remorse.”

    Ellis, the fourth defendant in the case to enter into a plea deal, was a vocal part of Trump’s reelection campaign in the last presidential cycle and was charged alongside the Republican former president and 17 others with violating the state’s anti-racketeering law.

    Ellis pleaded guilty to one felony count of aiding and abetting false statements and writings. She had been facing charges of violating Georgia’s Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act and soliciting the violation of oath by a public officer, both felonies.

    She rose to speak after pleading guilty, fighting back tears as she said she would have not have represented Trump after the 2020 election if she knew then what she knows now, claiming that she she relied on lawyers with much more experience than her and failed to verify the things they told her.

    “What I did not do but should have done, Your Honor, was to make sure that the facts the other lawyers alleged to be true were in fact true,” the 38-year-old Ellis said.

    I suspect everyone they wish to use against Trump will be offered (and accept) a plea bargain.

    Leaving the final case to be all the original defendants offering evidence against Trump and Rudy...
    Yet he is still the 2.9 fav for the WH. That price, for me, is one of the wonders of the world. I can sit looking at it for hours.
    RFK-parody is similar odds to Haley. Which is still more nuts.
    Yes he's one I've got (free) laid up to my Trump exposure.
  • Blair seems to do very well in this format yet also near the bottom of most popular modern PMs.

    Thatcher 34, Johnson 29, Brown 24, Major 24, Cameron 18, Blair 18, May 15

    https://yougov.co.uk/ratings/politics/popularity/UK-prime-ministers/all

    Blair will forever have his Iraq adventure as a major blot on his reputation.
    Tony Blair's fate in future memory will be similar to that of David Lloyd George;

    His merits as a politico and PM being overshadowed by his demerits, the more so as time moves on.
    Does Lloyd-George really have that bad an historical reputation? He has a complex one, certainly, but he left behind major achievements (a World War won, a welfare state founded) as well as a certain amount of wreckage.

    It's may be rather early to assess Blair. But, arguably, he's in a very different position to Lloyd-George in the sense that potentially we'll be talking about the strange lack of a legacy.
    You make good points.

    HOWEVER, my point was NOT about his historical reputation, among folks who actually more about his history than just a punch line.

    It's the later I'm talking about: the British FOLK memory of Lloyd George, which as far as I can tell, consists of his life-long zipper problem plus his "honours" scandal.

    As in, "Lloyd George knew my father, Father knew Lloyd George".
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822
    edited October 2023
    kinabalu said:

    eek said:

    . . . and another one bites the dust . . .

    AP (via Seattle Times) - Jenna Ellis becomes latest Trump lawyer to plead guilty over efforts to overturn Georgia’s election

    ATLANTA (AP) — Attorney and prominent conservative media figure Jenna Ellis pleaded guilty on Tuesday to a felony charge over efforts to overturn Donald Trump’s 2020 election loss in Georgia, tearfully telling the judge she looks back on that time with “deep remorse.”

    Ellis, the fourth defendant in the case to enter into a plea deal, was a vocal part of Trump’s reelection campaign in the last presidential cycle and was charged alongside the Republican former president and 17 others with violating the state’s anti-racketeering law.

    Ellis pleaded guilty to one felony count of aiding and abetting false statements and writings. She had been facing charges of violating Georgia’s Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act and soliciting the violation of oath by a public officer, both felonies.

    She rose to speak after pleading guilty, fighting back tears as she said she would have not have represented Trump after the 2020 election if she knew then what she knows now, claiming that she she relied on lawyers with much more experience than her and failed to verify the things they told her.

    “What I did not do but should have done, Your Honor, was to make sure that the facts the other lawyers alleged to be true were in fact true,” the 38-year-old Ellis said.

    I suspect everyone they wish to use against Trump will be offered (and accept) a plea bargain.

    Leaving the final case to be all the original defendants offering evidence against Trump and Rudy...
    Yet he is still the 2.9 fav for the WH. That price, for me, is one of the wonders of the world. I can sit looking at it for hours.
    What can actually damage Trump electorally though? His supporters treat him as a god, and the independents dont like Biden or the direction of the country.

    The only shifts I expect are for swing voters based on the economy and household finances, which could go either way. The rest is noise.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,091

    On the odd chance that some oddball on here is still interested in election results . . .

    Argentina General Election - for President (top two qualify for runoff)
    source Wiki, with 100% reported:

    Sergio Massa Union for the Homeland (UP) 9,645,983 36.7%
    Javier Milei Liberty Advances (LLA) 7,884,336 30.0%
    Patricia Bullrich Together for Change (JxC) 6,267,152 23.84
    Juan Schiaretti We Do for Our Country (HNP) 1,784,315 6.8%
    Myriam Bregman Workers' Left Front (FIT) 709,932 2.7%
    Total 26,291,718 100% of valid votes
    Valid votes 26,291,718 97.0%
    Invalid votes 254,796 0.9%
    Blank votes 554,161 2.1%
    Total votes 27,100,675 100% of total votes
    Registered voters/turnout 35,410,080 76.5%

    NOTE that Trump wanna-be Milei seriously underperformed, leastways based on pre-election polling; on the other hand, Massa of the governing (in a manner of speaking) Peronist party got a bit over 1/3 of valid votes cast which is pretty crummy for functional incumbent.

    Perhaps the most interesting results are shown on the maps at this link
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2023_Argentina_General_Election_map.svg

    As you can see for yourselves

    > Sergio Massa (aka Cristina Kirchner with a pretty face) was strongest in northern Argentina, in particular in provinces of Santiago del Estero, Formosa, Catamarca, Corrientes.

    > Javier Milei (Fucker Carlson's favorite) was strongest in western Argentina, especially in provinces of Mendoza and San Luis, also in Santa Fe and Missiones in northeast, and Salta in northwest.

    > Patricia Bullich (the best choice IMHO) came in first in just metro Buenos Aires, but she also did well in Buenos Aires province where she was second (I think) behind Milei.

    Sadly, the Islas Malvinas were denied opportunity to vote this election, but "residents" of Antártida Argentina cast their votes for Milei; methinks they'd been better advised to cast their spare penguin shit at him!

    "some oddball on here" is my job description. Thank you @SeaShantyIrish2 :)
  • Lloyd George had achievements that all the PMs between Major and Sunak combined could only dream of. He was also a wee bit corrupt, split his party and left it never able to form a Govt again. Mr Sunak has one of these three - is he shooting to achieve the other two?
  • Pulpstar said:

    algarkirk said:

    Barnesian said:

    Wittgenstein suggests that the meaning of a word is in how it is used in practice.

    Lewis Carroll — 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less"

    I hope that helps.

    This very attractive proposal is nonetheless incoherent junk. It ends in an infinite regress as the only way of knowing how a word is 'used in practice' is to describe that meaning in further words, which are (on this theory) subject to the same difficulty.

    So when Wittgenstein (or Humpty) says anything at all, if the theory is correct it is impossible to have any idea at all what they mean, as meanings are unavailable.

    Which means the theory is not even coherently sayable.

    Twas brillig, and the slithy toves..
    There’s a house called Brillig on my route

    Mr and Mrs Sparkes live there
  • rcs1000 said:

    On the odd chance that some oddball on here is still interested in election results . . .

    Argentina General Election - for President (top two qualify for runoff)
    source Wiki, with 100% reported:

    Sergio Massa Union for the Homeland (UP) 9,645,983 36.7%
    Javier Milei Liberty Advances (LLA) 7,884,336 30.0%
    Patricia Bullrich Together for Change (JxC) 6,267,152 23.84
    Juan Schiaretti We Do for Our Country (HNP) 1,784,315 6.8%
    Myriam Bregman Workers' Left Front (FIT) 709,932 2.7%
    Total 26,291,718 100% of valid votes
    Valid votes 26,291,718 97.0%
    Invalid votes 254,796 0.9%
    Blank votes 554,161 2.1%
    Total votes 27,100,675 100% of total votes
    Registered voters/turnout 35,410,080 76.5%

    NOTE that Trump wanna-be Milei seriously underperformed, leastways based on pre-election polling; on the other hand, Massa of the governing (in a manner of speaking) Peronist party got a bit over 1/3 of valid votes cast which is pretty crummy for functional incumbent.

    Perhaps the most interesting results are shown on the maps at this link
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2023_Argentina_General_Election_map.svg

    As you can see for yourselves

    > Sergio Massa (aka Cristina Kirchner with a pretty face) was strongest in northern Argentina, in particular in provinces of Santiago del Estero, Formosa, Catamarca, Corrientes.

    > Javier Milei (Fucker Carlson's favorite) was strongest in western Argentina, especially in provinces of Mendoza and San Luis, also in Santa Fe and Missiones in northeast, and Salta in northwest.

    > Patricia Bullich (the best choice IMHO) came in first in just metro Buenos Aires, but she also did well in Buenos Aires province where she was second (I think) behind Milei.

    Sadly, the Islas Malvinas were denied opportunity to vote this election, but "residents" of Antártida Argentina cast their votes for Milei; methinks they'd been better advised to cast their spare penguin shit at him!

    I'd probably vote for Myriam Bregman, because while I'm sure I'd agree with none of her policies, at least I know her political leanings from her party name. The others? I have literally no idea.
    There is a flaw here. You might also be expecting the Conservative party to conserve things, or the Labour party to be on the side of the employed but get the opposite.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,270

    rcs1000 said:

    On the odd chance that some oddball on here is still interested in election results . . .

    Argentina General Election - for President (top two qualify for runoff)
    source Wiki, with 100% reported:

    Sergio Massa Union for the Homeland (UP) 9,645,983 36.7%
    Javier Milei Liberty Advances (LLA) 7,884,336 30.0%
    Patricia Bullrich Together for Change (JxC) 6,267,152 23.84
    Juan Schiaretti We Do for Our Country (HNP) 1,784,315 6.8%
    Myriam Bregman Workers' Left Front (FIT) 709,932 2.7%
    Total 26,291,718 100% of valid votes
    Valid votes 26,291,718 97.0%
    Invalid votes 254,796 0.9%
    Blank votes 554,161 2.1%
    Total votes 27,100,675 100% of total votes
    Registered voters/turnout 35,410,080 76.5%

    NOTE that Trump wanna-be Milei seriously underperformed, leastways based on pre-election polling; on the other hand, Massa of the governing (in a manner of speaking) Peronist party got a bit over 1/3 of valid votes cast which is pretty crummy for functional incumbent.

    Perhaps the most interesting results are shown on the maps at this link
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2023_Argentina_General_Election_map.svg

    As you can see for yourselves

    > Sergio Massa (aka Cristina Kirchner with a pretty face) was strongest in northern Argentina, in particular in provinces of Santiago del Estero, Formosa, Catamarca, Corrientes.

    > Javier Milei (Fucker Carlson's favorite) was strongest in western Argentina, especially in provinces of Mendoza and San Luis, also in Santa Fe and Missiones in northeast, and Salta in northwest.

    > Patricia Bullich (the best choice IMHO) came in first in just metro Buenos Aires, but she also did well in Buenos Aires province where she was second (I think) behind Milei.

    Sadly, the Islas Malvinas were denied opportunity to vote this election, but "residents" of Antártida Argentina cast their votes for Milei; methinks they'd been better advised to cast their spare penguin shit at him!

    I'd probably vote for Myriam Bregman, because while I'm sure I'd agree with none of her policies, at least I know her political leanings from her party name. The others? I have literally no idea.
    There is a flaw here. You might also be expecting the Conservative party to conserve things, or the Labour party to be on the side of the employed but get the opposite.
    The Russian Liberal Democrat Party has entered the chat.
  • rcs1000 said:

    On the odd chance that some oddball on here is still interested in election results . . .

    Argentina General Election - for President (top two qualify for runoff)
    source Wiki, with 100% reported:

    Sergio Massa Union for the Homeland (UP) 9,645,983 36.7%
    Javier Milei Liberty Advances (LLA) 7,884,336 30.0%
    Patricia Bullrich Together for Change (JxC) 6,267,152 23.84
    Juan Schiaretti We Do for Our Country (HNP) 1,784,315 6.8%
    Myriam Bregman Workers' Left Front (FIT) 709,932 2.7%
    Total 26,291,718 100% of valid votes
    Valid votes 26,291,718 97.0%
    Invalid votes 254,796 0.9%
    Blank votes 554,161 2.1%
    Total votes 27,100,675 100% of total votes
    Registered voters/turnout 35,410,080 76.5%

    NOTE that Trump wanna-be Milei seriously underperformed, leastways based on pre-election polling; on the other hand, Massa of the governing (in a manner of speaking) Peronist party got a bit over 1/3 of valid votes cast which is pretty crummy for functional incumbent.

    Perhaps the most interesting results are shown on the maps at this link
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2023_Argentina_General_Election_map.svg

    As you can see for yourselves

    > Sergio Massa (aka Cristina Kirchner with a pretty face) was strongest in northern Argentina, in particular in provinces of Santiago del Estero, Formosa, Catamarca, Corrientes.

    > Javier Milei (Fucker Carlson's favorite) was strongest in western Argentina, especially in provinces of Mendoza and San Luis, also in Santa Fe and Missiones in northeast, and Salta in northwest.

    > Patricia Bullich (the best choice IMHO) came in first in just metro Buenos Aires, but she also did well in Buenos Aires province where she was second (I think) behind Milei.

    Sadly, the Islas Malvinas were denied opportunity to vote this election, but "residents" of Antártida Argentina cast their votes for Milei; methinks they'd been better advised to cast their spare penguin shit at him!

    I'd probably vote for Myriam Bregman, because while I'm sure I'd agree with none of her policies, at least I know her political leanings from her party name. The others? I have literally no idea.
    Believe your candidate's most popular policy plank, advocates converting Las Malvinas into a collective sheep farm.

    Managed for las ovejas . . . after the woolies have been re-educated to say "bee" instead of "baa" . . .
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    I want to live here forever

    No one lives forever.
    Though if it's a really slow train, it might feel like it.
    Waiting for this flight at Gatwick certainly feels like it’s been forever!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,431
    viewcode said:

    On the odd chance that some oddball on here is still interested in election results . . .

    Argentina General Election - for President (top two qualify for runoff)
    source Wiki, with 100% reported:

    Sergio Massa Union for the Homeland (UP) 9,645,983 36.7%
    Javier Milei Liberty Advances (LLA) 7,884,336 30.0%
    Patricia Bullrich Together for Change (JxC) 6,267,152 23.84
    Juan Schiaretti We Do for Our Country (HNP) 1,784,315 6.8%
    Myriam Bregman Workers' Left Front (FIT) 709,932 2.7%
    Total 26,291,718 100% of valid votes
    Valid votes 26,291,718 97.0%
    Invalid votes 254,796 0.9%
    Blank votes 554,161 2.1%
    Total votes 27,100,675 100% of total votes
    Registered voters/turnout 35,410,080 76.5%

    NOTE that Trump wanna-be Milei seriously underperformed, leastways based on pre-election polling; on the other hand, Massa of the governing (in a manner of speaking) Peronist party got a bit over 1/3 of valid votes cast which is pretty crummy for functional incumbent.

    Perhaps the most interesting results are shown on the maps at this link
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2023_Argentina_General_Election_map.svg

    As you can see for yourselves

    > Sergio Massa (aka Cristina Kirchner with a pretty face) was strongest in northern Argentina, in particular in provinces of Santiago del Estero, Formosa, Catamarca, Corrientes.

    > Javier Milei (Fucker Carlson's favorite) was strongest in western Argentina, especially in provinces of Mendoza and San Luis, also in Santa Fe and Missiones in northeast, and Salta in northwest.

    > Patricia Bullich (the best choice IMHO) came in first in just metro Buenos Aires, but she also did well in Buenos Aires province where she was second (I think) behind Milei.

    Sadly, the Islas Malvinas were denied opportunity to vote this election, but "residents" of Antártida Argentina cast their votes for Milei; methinks they'd been better advised to cast their spare penguin shit at him!

    "some oddball on here" is my job description. Thank you @SeaShantyIrish2 :)
    Who led in the Welsh-speaking area?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,091

    Blair seems to do very well in this format yet also near the bottom of most popular modern PMs.

    Thatcher 34, Johnson 29, Brown 24, Major 24, Cameron 18, Blair 18, May 15

    https://yougov.co.uk/ratings/politics/popularity/UK-prime-ministers/all

    Blair will forever have his Iraq adventure as a major blot on his reputation.
    Tony Blair's fate in future memory will be similar to that of David Lloyd George;

    His merits as a politico and PM being overshadowed by his demerits, the more so as time moves on.
    Does Lloyd-George really have that bad an historical reputation? He has a complex one, certainly, but he left behind major achievements (a World War won, a welfare state founded) as well as a certain amount of wreckage.

    It's may be rather early to assess Blair. But, arguably, he's in a very different position to Lloyd-George in the sense that potentially we'll be talking about the strange lack of a legacy.
    You make good points.

    HOWEVER, my point was NOT about his historical reputation, among folks who actually more about his history than just a punch line.

    It's the later I'm talking about: the British FOLK memory of Lloyd George, which as far as I can tell, consists of his life-long zipper problem plus his "honours" scandal.

    As in, "Lloyd George knew my father, Father knew Lloyd George".
    If you have nine hours to spare...

    The Life and Times of David Lloyd George
  • Blair seems to do very well in this format yet also near the bottom of most popular modern PMs.

    Thatcher 34, Johnson 29, Brown 24, Major 24, Cameron 18, Blair 18, May 15

    https://yougov.co.uk/ratings/politics/popularity/UK-prime-ministers/all

    Blair will forever have his Iraq adventure as a major blot on his reputation.
    Tony Blair's fate in future memory will be similar to that of David Lloyd George;

    His merits as a politico and PM being overshadowed by his demerits, the more so as time moves on.
    Does Lloyd-George really have that bad an historical reputation? He has a complex one, certainly, but he left behind major achievements (a World War won, a welfare state founded) as well as a certain amount of wreckage.

    It's may be rather early to assess Blair. But, arguably, he's in a very different position to Lloyd-George in the sense that potentially we'll be talking about the strange lack of a legacy.
    You make good points.

    HOWEVER, my point was NOT about his historical reputation, among folks who actually more about his history than just a punch line.

    It's the later I'm talking about: the British FOLK memory of Lloyd George, which as far as I can tell, consists of his life-long zipper problem plus his "honours" scandal.

    As in, "Lloyd George knew my father, Father knew Lloyd George".
    I'm not sure the "folk memory" thing means much in this context. Approximately nobody has any personal recollection of Lloyd-George as an active politician now, and you need to be very much of a certain age for "Lloyd-George knew my father" to mean anything to you. And I don't think the honours scandal is any better known (indeed quite a bit worse known) than Lloyd-George as a wartime PM and welfare state instigator... and none of them are that well known.

    In reality, all that is really left is historical reputation when the generation with direct experience dies and those who knew those with direct experience also die. It's a slightly caricatured version, but these people are all just destined to become half remembered GCSE history lessons, a documentary once vaguely watched, and a Wikipedia entry skim read.
  • . . . meanwhile back under the Big Top . . .

    NYT - Emmer Leads as Divided House G.O.P. Meets Again to Choose a Speaker
    House Republicans were meeting behind closed doors to grind through multiple votes to find a nominee for speaker, with several members vying for the post.

    Representative Tom Emmer of Minnesota, the No. 3 House Republican, emerged on Tuesday as his party’s latest leading contender for speaker as the G.O.P. ground through rounds of closed-door votes to break a deadlock that has left Congress paralyzed for three weeks.

    Mr. Emmer won the first rounds of secret balloting, according to lawmakers who participated, and the field was winnowing as the lowest vote getters were forced out.

    That left four Republicans, none of them with a national profile, vying for the post. Still in the race were Representatives Mike Johnson of Louisiana, a conservative lawyer who sits on the Judiciary Committee; Byron Donalds of Florida, a charismatic younger member of the ultraconservative House Freedom Caucus; and Kevin Hern of Oklahoma, the chairman of the conservative Republican Study Committee.

    The free-for-all reflected the deep divisions within the House G.O.P. The party began meeting Tuesday morning and was to remain cloistered behind closed doors for much of the day, grinding through multiple rounds of voting by secret ballot to try to coalesce around a candidate. Whoever ultimately wins a majority of Republicans will become the party’s next nominee for speaker and advance to the House floor.

    Representatives Pete Sessions of Texas, the former chairman of the Rules Committee; Jack Bergman of Michigan, a retired Marine Corps lieutenant general; and Austin Scott of Georgia, who mounted a surprise challenge for speaker last week, were among those to be dropped on Tuesday after receiving the fewest votes.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    I want to live here forever

    No one lives forever.
    Though if it's a really slow train, it might feel like it.
    Waiting for this flight at Gatwick certainly feels like it’s been forever!
    Sorry to hear that.
    Where are you headed ?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,995

    rcs1000 said:

    On the odd chance that some oddball on here is still interested in election results . . .

    Argentina General Election - for President (top two qualify for runoff)
    source Wiki, with 100% reported:

    Sergio Massa Union for the Homeland (UP) 9,645,983 36.7%
    Javier Milei Liberty Advances (LLA) 7,884,336 30.0%
    Patricia Bullrich Together for Change (JxC) 6,267,152 23.84
    Juan Schiaretti We Do for Our Country (HNP) 1,784,315 6.8%
    Myriam Bregman Workers' Left Front (FIT) 709,932 2.7%
    Total 26,291,718 100% of valid votes
    Valid votes 26,291,718 97.0%
    Invalid votes 254,796 0.9%
    Blank votes 554,161 2.1%
    Total votes 27,100,675 100% of total votes
    Registered voters/turnout 35,410,080 76.5%

    NOTE that Trump wanna-be Milei seriously underperformed, leastways based on pre-election polling; on the other hand, Massa of the governing (in a manner of speaking) Peronist party got a bit over 1/3 of valid votes cast which is pretty crummy for functional incumbent.

    Perhaps the most interesting results are shown on the maps at this link
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2023_Argentina_General_Election_map.svg

    As you can see for yourselves

    > Sergio Massa (aka Cristina Kirchner with a pretty face) was strongest in northern Argentina, in particular in provinces of Santiago del Estero, Formosa, Catamarca, Corrientes.

    > Javier Milei (Fucker Carlson's favorite) was strongest in western Argentina, especially in provinces of Mendoza and San Luis, also in Santa Fe and Missiones in northeast, and Salta in northwest.

    > Patricia Bullich (the best choice IMHO) came in first in just metro Buenos Aires, but she also did well in Buenos Aires province where she was second (I think) behind Milei.

    Sadly, the Islas Malvinas were denied opportunity to vote this election, but "residents" of Antártida Argentina cast their votes for Milei; methinks they'd been better advised to cast their spare penguin shit at him!

    I'd probably vote for Myriam Bregman, because while I'm sure I'd agree with none of her policies, at least I know her political leanings from her party name. The others? I have literally no idea.
    There is a flaw here. You might also be expecting the Conservative party to conserve things, or the Labour party to be on the side of the employed but get the opposite.
    The Russian Liberal Democrat Party has entered the chat.
    Or indeed the Australian liberal party, or the HS2 protesting, anti nuclear UK Green Party.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,999
    FPT: A general note on terminology in American politics: I prefer using "leftist" to describe many who are often called "liberals", or even "progressives" by our "mainstream" media. Michael Moore and Bernie Sanders are examples you are probably familiar with.


  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    rcs1000 said:

    On the odd chance that some oddball on here is still interested in election results . . .

    Argentina General Election - for President (top two qualify for runoff)
    source Wiki, with 100% reported:

    Sergio Massa Union for the Homeland (UP) 9,645,983 36.7%
    Javier Milei Liberty Advances (LLA) 7,884,336 30.0%
    Patricia Bullrich Together for Change (JxC) 6,267,152 23.84
    Juan Schiaretti We Do for Our Country (HNP) 1,784,315 6.8%
    Myriam Bregman Workers' Left Front (FIT) 709,932 2.7%
    Total 26,291,718 100% of valid votes
    Valid votes 26,291,718 97.0%
    Invalid votes 254,796 0.9%
    Blank votes 554,161 2.1%
    Total votes 27,100,675 100% of total votes
    Registered voters/turnout 35,410,080 76.5%

    NOTE that Trump wanna-be Milei seriously underperformed, leastways based on pre-election polling; on the other hand, Massa of the governing (in a manner of speaking) Peronist party got a bit over 1/3 of valid votes cast which is pretty crummy for functional incumbent.

    Perhaps the most interesting results are shown on the maps at this link
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2023_Argentina_General_Election_map.svg

    As you can see for yourselves

    > Sergio Massa (aka Cristina Kirchner with a pretty face) was strongest in northern Argentina, in particular in provinces of Santiago del Estero, Formosa, Catamarca, Corrientes.

    > Javier Milei (Fucker Carlson's favorite) was strongest in western Argentina, especially in provinces of Mendoza and San Luis, also in Santa Fe and Missiones in northeast, and Salta in northwest.

    > Patricia Bullich (the best choice IMHO) came in first in just metro Buenos Aires, but she also did well in Buenos Aires province where she was second (I think) behind Milei.

    Sadly, the Islas Malvinas were denied opportunity to vote this election, but "residents" of Antártida Argentina cast their votes for Milei; methinks they'd been better advised to cast their spare penguin shit at him!

    I'd probably vote for Myriam Bregman, because while I'm sure I'd agree with none of her policies, at least I know her political leanings from her party name. The others? I have literally no idea.
    There is a flaw here. You might also be expecting the Conservative party to conserve things, or the Labour party to be on the side of the employed but get the opposite.
    The Russian Liberal Democrat Party has entered the chat.
    Liberal, something liberals and liberal somethings has become a meaningless moniker, because their politics spread accross the whole political spectrum. The UK's Liberal Democrats are a mile away from the German liberals is a mile away from the US liberals.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    I want to live here forever
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    I want to live here forever

    No one lives forever.
    Though if it's a really slow train, it might feel like it.
    No, I’ve reached my destination. Ortygia. The island of Siracusa. It’s like a dream of the perfect little Mediterranean Sea-city
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727

    Blair seems to do very well in this format yet also near the bottom of most popular modern PMs.

    Thatcher 34, Johnson 29, Brown 24, Major 24, Cameron 18, Blair 18, May 15

    https://yougov.co.uk/ratings/politics/popularity/UK-prime-ministers/all

    Blair will forever have his Iraq adventure as a major blot on his reputation.
    Tony Blair's fate in future memory will be similar to that of David Lloyd George;

    His merits as a politico and PM being overshadowed by his demerits, the more so as time moves on.
    Does Lloyd-George really have that bad an historical reputation? He has a complex one, certainly, but he left behind major achievements (a World War won, a welfare state founded) as well as a certain amount of wreckage.

    It's may be rather early to assess Blair. But, arguably, he's in a very different position to Lloyd-George in the sense that potentially we'll be talking about the strange lack of a legacy.
    In history at school (late 90s) the focus was on founding the welfare state. He seemed a somewhat sainted figure and I only learned about the other parts of hid reputation subsequently.

    The history teacher in question was somewhere to the left of Corbyn, so she may have had some influence on what was and was not covered!
  • Good afternoon

    It is just over a week since my GP sent me directly to A & E where I spent an uncomfortable overnighter before seeing the A & E doctor who immediately admitted me with a suspected substantial DVT which was confirmed by an ultrasound scan

    The hospital team have been wonderful and caring, and I have my own dedicated nurse if required. I understand I am on a six month treatment plan and may need blood thinners indefinitely.

    Coupled with some other health issues, and my dear wife catching a really bad dose of covid, notwithstanding our 7th vaccination on the 2nd October these events have had a sobering effect on myself and my family

    I simply have lost interest in the day to day arguments in politics and to be honest see no way back for the conservatives who have self destructed and in my opinion handed Sunak the short straw which he has obviously struggled with

    I wish Starmer and labour well but they have a extraordinary task, indeed even an impossible task, facing them but the demand for change is overwhelming

    I have popped in and out of the forum and enjoyed the vast topics discussed, including how to cook rice, and the more somber Israel war and will continue to do so but maybe not contribute as much as I used to

    PB must be cherished by everyone using it as it is an exceptional discussion forum, even though some get over overexcited, and it is a great credit to those responsible for it

    I did want to provide an update as I am still here, and fighting against the grim reaper

    And as an aside my son and his colleagues feature in a rescue by Llandudno RNLI on Thursday on BBC2 saving lives at sea documentary

    My best wishes to all

    Best of British - and Irish - for you and yours!

    Please keep on lurking, and occasionally spouting, her on PB. Remember, we luvv your guff!
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,587
    Leon said:

    I want to live here forever

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    I want to live here forever

    No one lives forever.
    Though if it's a really slow train, it might feel like it.
    No, I’ve reached my destination. Ortygia. The island of Siracusa. It’s like a dream of the perfect little Mediterranean Sea-city
    From a quick google it reminds me a bit of Cadiz, in terms of geography.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159

    kinabalu said:

    eek said:

    . . . and another one bites the dust . . .

    AP (via Seattle Times) - Jenna Ellis becomes latest Trump lawyer to plead guilty over efforts to overturn Georgia’s election

    ATLANTA (AP) — Attorney and prominent conservative media figure Jenna Ellis pleaded guilty on Tuesday to a felony charge over efforts to overturn Donald Trump’s 2020 election loss in Georgia, tearfully telling the judge she looks back on that time with “deep remorse.”

    Ellis, the fourth defendant in the case to enter into a plea deal, was a vocal part of Trump’s reelection campaign in the last presidential cycle and was charged alongside the Republican former president and 17 others with violating the state’s anti-racketeering law.

    Ellis pleaded guilty to one felony count of aiding and abetting false statements and writings. She had been facing charges of violating Georgia’s Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act and soliciting the violation of oath by a public officer, both felonies.

    She rose to speak after pleading guilty, fighting back tears as she said she would have not have represented Trump after the 2020 election if she knew then what she knows now, claiming that she she relied on lawyers with much more experience than her and failed to verify the things they told her.

    “What I did not do but should have done, Your Honor, was to make sure that the facts the other lawyers alleged to be true were in fact true,” the 38-year-old Ellis said.

    I suspect everyone they wish to use against Trump will be offered (and accept) a plea bargain.

    Leaving the final case to be all the original defendants offering evidence against Trump and Rudy...
    Yet he is still the 2.9 fav for the WH. That price, for me, is one of the wonders of the world. I can sit looking at it for hours.
    What can actually damage Trump electorally though? His supporters treat him as a god, and the independents dont like Biden or the direction of the country.

    The only shifts I expect are for swing voters based on the economy and household finances, which could go either way. The rest is noise.
    I'm taking a different view. I think it's not tenable (even in this crazy world) to have as a candidate for US president a guy who is likely going down for election fraud and racketeering, and I think this will dawn on enough people (and in time) such that come November he won't be on the ballot. I realize I'm almost alone on here with this but that's all the better so long as I'm right. And I really am confident about it. Maybe I shouldn't be but I am. We will see. The next year will be fascinating.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,995
    carnforth said:

    Leon said:

    I want to live here forever

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    I want to live here forever

    No one lives forever.
    Though if it's a really slow train, it might feel like it.
    No, I’ve reached my destination. Ortygia. The island of Siracusa. It’s like a dream of the perfect little Mediterranean Sea-city
    From a quick google it reminds me a bit of Cadiz, in terms of geography.
    It’s similar but much more baroque and flash. Pleasant but I prefer the modesty of Spanish cities.
  • One question yours truly has re: the quest of the Anarchist Quasi-Collective formerly know as US House Republican Conference -

    Will they retain their 21st-century equivalent of the 18th-century (and previous) infamous "liberum veto"?

    The liberum veto (Latin for "free veto"[a]) was a parliamentary device in the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth. It was a form of unanimity voting rule that allowed any member of the Sejm (legislature) to force an immediate end to the current session and to nullify any legislation that had already been passed at the session by shouting either Sisto activitatem! (Latin: "I stop the activity!") or Nie pozwalam! (Polish: "I do not allow!"). . . .

    Many historians hold that the liberum veto was a major cause of the deterioration of the Commonwealth political system, particularly in the 18th century, when foreign powers bribed Sejm members to paralyze its proceedings, causing foreign occupation, dominance and manipulation of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth and its eventual destruction in the partitions.

    Piotr Stefan Wandycz wrote that the "liberum veto had become the sinister symbol of old Polish anarchy". In the period of 1573–1763, about 150 sejms were held, about a third failing to pass any legislation, mostly because of the liberum veto. The expression Polish parliament in many European languages originated from the apparent paralysis.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberum_veto
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    Leon said:

    I want to live here forever

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    I want to live here forever

    No one lives forever.
    Though if it's a really slow train, it might feel like it.
    No, I’ve reached my destination. Ortygia. The island of Siracusa. It’s like a dream of the perfect little Mediterranean Sea-city
    The Aeolian Islands are worth a trip, if you haven't been and can fit it in. You can (or could, when I was there ~ten plus years back) wander around quite freely on Vulcano and Stromboli, though that may have been tightened up since then.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    Leon said:

    I want to live here forever

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    I want to live here forever

    No one lives forever.
    Though if it's a really slow train, it might feel like it.
    No, I’ve reached my destination. Ortygia. The island of Siracusa. It’s like a dream of the perfect little Mediterranean Sea-city
    I must confess to being somewhat jealous.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,534
    edited October 2023

    Blair seems to do very well in this format yet also near the bottom of most popular modern PMs.

    Thatcher 34, Johnson 29, Brown 24, Major 24, Cameron 18, Blair 18, May 15

    https://yougov.co.uk/ratings/politics/popularity/UK-prime-ministers/all

    Blair will forever have his Iraq adventure as a major blot on his reputation.
    Tony Blair's fate in future memory will be similar to that of David Lloyd George;

    His merits as a politico and PM being overshadowed by his demerits, the more so as time moves on.
    Does Lloyd-George really have that bad an historical reputation? He has a complex one, certainly, but he left behind major achievements (a World War won, a welfare state founded) as well as a certain amount of wreckage.

    It's may be rather early to assess Blair. But, arguably, he's in a very different position to Lloyd-George in the sense that potentially we'll be talking about the strange lack of a legacy.
    You make good points.

    HOWEVER, my point was NOT about his historical reputation, among folks who actually more about his history than just a punch line.

    It's the later I'm talking about: the British FOLK memory of Lloyd George, which as far as I can tell, consists of his life-long zipper problem plus his "honours" scandal.

    As in, "Lloyd George knew my father, Father knew Lloyd George".
    I'm not sure the "folk memory" thing means much in this context. Approximately nobody has any personal recollection of Lloyd-George as an active politician now, and you need to be very much of a certain age for "Lloyd-George knew my father" to mean anything to you. And I don't think the honours scandal is any better known (indeed quite a bit worse known) than Lloyd-George as a wartime PM and welfare state instigator... and none of them are that well known.

    In reality, all that is really left is historical reputation when the generation with direct experience dies and those who knew those with direct experience also die. It's a slightly caricatured version, but these people are all just destined to become half remembered GCSE history lessons, a documentary once vaguely watched, and a Wikipedia entry skim read.
    I know what SSI means though. People have a history which might be argued over by historians and academics or might reach a fairly settled equilibrium. But they also have a mythology which is present even long after those who actually lived through the period are gone. Most British monarchs have a mythology which is often quite far removed from historical fact. Many of the more notable British politicians likewise. I think this is what SSI is referring to by folk-memory. How someone lives on in the culture.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931
    spudgfsh said:

    Nigelb said:

    "Worse than Gordon Brown", sheesh.

    At the time I thought that there couldn't be a PM worse than GB. since 2016 the Tories have been constantly 'Hold my beer!'.

    I'm kind of looking forward to a dull PM in Starmer. that being said I suspect that his cabinet will be anything but dull...
    At least we have seen Starmer holding a beer, presumably not Sunak’s.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,999
    Also from previous thread: Is abortion totally banned in any American state?

    Not according to the pro-abortion Guttmacher Institute. (Their headlines say banned, but the article text modifies that with "Near-total" for every state where it is "banned".)
    https://www.guttmacher.org/2023/01/six-months-post-roe-24-us-states-have-banned-abortion-or-are-likely-do-so-roundup


  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,360
    rcs1000 said:

    There are an increasing number of voices raising the alarm over the electoral consequences for the Democrats over Biden's support for Israel.

    https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/biden-israel-palestine-policy-election/

    Biden risks labeling himself as a president who is in favor of colonization, and one who will turn a blind eye to ethnic cleansing and war crimes—and those are tough labels to shake once they take hold in communities of color.

    Yes, it is a significant risk for Biden; it could well see lots of young progressives (who would otherwise be motivated by abortion) stay home.

    It's also a significant longer-term risk for Israel. If there are no longer votes in defending Israel, then it suddenly looks a lot more vulnerable than it did.
    In the end, how many will turn against the Democrats, over US support for Israel?
  • viewcode said:

    On the odd chance that some oddball on here is still interested in election results . . .

    Argentina General Election - for President (top two qualify for runoff)
    source Wiki, with 100% reported:

    Sergio Massa Union for the Homeland (UP) 9,645,983 36.7%
    Javier Milei Liberty Advances (LLA) 7,884,336 30.0%
    Patricia Bullrich Together for Change (JxC) 6,267,152 23.84
    Juan Schiaretti We Do for Our Country (HNP) 1,784,315 6.8%
    Myriam Bregman Workers' Left Front (FIT) 709,932 2.7%
    Total 26,291,718 100% of valid votes
    Valid votes 26,291,718 97.0%
    Invalid votes 254,796 0.9%
    Blank votes 554,161 2.1%
    Total votes 27,100,675 100% of total votes
    Registered voters/turnout 35,410,080 76.5%

    NOTE that Trump wanna-be Milei seriously underperformed, leastways based on pre-election polling; on the other hand, Massa of the governing (in a manner of speaking) Peronist party got a bit over 1/3 of valid votes cast which is pretty crummy for functional incumbent.

    Perhaps the most interesting results are shown on the maps at this link
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2023_Argentina_General_Election_map.svg

    As you can see for yourselves

    > Sergio Massa (aka Cristina Kirchner with a pretty face) was strongest in northern Argentina, in particular in provinces of Santiago del Estero, Formosa, Catamarca, Corrientes.

    > Javier Milei (Fucker Carlson's favorite) was strongest in western Argentina, especially in provinces of Mendoza and San Luis, also in Santa Fe and Missiones in northeast, and Salta in northwest.

    > Patricia Bullich (the best choice IMHO) came in first in just metro Buenos Aires, but she also did well in Buenos Aires province where she was second (I think) behind Milei.

    Sadly, the Islas Malvinas were denied opportunity to vote this election, but "residents" of Antártida Argentina cast their votes for Milei; methinks they'd been better advised to cast their spare penguin shit at him!

    "some oddball on here" is my job description. Thank you @SeaShantyIrish2 :)
    Who led in the Welsh-speaking area?
    From that map I posted, compared to one at link below, appears (emphasis on conditional) that Welsh Argentinians voted for Milei.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_Wladfa
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161
    Has anyone watched Slow Horses?

    I watched the first episode last night, and - my God - what an amazing cast squandered.

    The opening scene - which you discover later is a training exercise - makes absolutely no sense at all. (And the more you think about it, the more ridiculous it appears.)

    People who aren't complete muppets have nice things to say about it. Which means I may stick with it. But boy, was it pants.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    edited October 2023
    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    I want to live here forever

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    I want to live here forever

    No one lives forever.
    Though if it's a really slow train, it might feel like it.
    No, I’ve reached my destination. Ortygia. The island of Siracusa. It’s like a dream of the perfect little Mediterranean Sea-city
    The Aeolian Islands are worth a trip, if you haven't been and can fit it in. You can (or could, when I was there ~ten plus years back) wander around quite freely on Vulcano and Stromboli, though that may have been tightened up since then.
    I did a blissful fortnight in the Aeolians for the Gazette years back

    I got lucky coz Stromboli was erupting - way more than normal, causing a river of lava to tumble to the sea; we went out on a boat at night to see her and it was like a cataract of giant orange diamonds, exploding when they hit the waves
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,534
    edited October 2023
    rcs1000 said:

    Has anyone watched Slow Horses?

    I watched the first episode last night, and - my God - what an amazing cast squandered.

    The opening scene - which you discover later is a training exercise - makes absolutely no sense at all. (And the more you think about it, the more ridiculous it appears.)

    People who aren't complete muppets have nice things to say about it. Which means I may stick with it. But boy, was it pants.

    I haven't seen it but best buddy tells me the only thing good about it is the Stones theme tune.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,039
    edited October 2023

    Blair seems to do very well in this format yet also near the bottom of most popular modern PMs.

    Thatcher 34, Johnson 29, Brown 24, Major 24, Cameron 18, Blair 18, May 15

    https://yougov.co.uk/ratings/politics/popularity/UK-prime-ministers/all

    Blair will forever have his Iraq adventure as a major blot on his reputation.
    Tony Blair's fate in future memory will be similar to that of David Lloyd George;

    His merits as a politico and PM being overshadowed by his demerits, the more so as time moves on.
    Does Lloyd-George really have that bad an historical reputation? He has a complex one, certainly, but he left behind major achievements (a World War won, a welfare state founded) as well as a certain amount of wreckage.

    It's may be rather early to assess Blair. But, arguably, he's in a very different position to Lloyd-George in the sense that potentially we'll be talking about the strange lack of a legacy.
    Lloyd George was a opportunistic disaster as Prime Minister (and before). The First World War was won despite him, not because of him; his refusal to build enough ships as Chancellor before the war almost let the Germans win it; his selfish manoeuvring after it enabled the Socialists to replace the Liberals as the main party of opposition; his catastrophic intervention in Turkey caused the genocide of their 3000-year-old Greek community; he was an recklessly inflammatory and firebrand speaker and he was a corrupt and opportunistic liar personally.

    He'd have fit right in in Momentum or the MAGA Republicans.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    I have a new home. A tumbledown piazza in the Giudecca, the Jewish quarter. It comes complete with ruined palazzo and three widows in black arguing about their wayward children (I think)

    Authentic or what
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931

    Good afternoon

    It is just over a week since my GP sent me directly to A & E where I spent an uncomfortable overnighter before seeing the A & E doctor who immediately admitted me with a suspected substantial DVT which was confirmed by an ultrasound scan

    The hospital team have been wonderful and caring, and I have my own dedicated nurse if required. I understand I am on a six month treatment plan and may need blood thinners indefinitely.

    Coupled with some other health issues, and my dear wife catching a really bad dose of covid, notwithstanding our 7th vaccination on the 2nd October these events have had a sobering effect on myself and my family

    I simply have lost interest in the day to day arguments in politics and to be honest see no way back for the conservatives who have self destructed and in my opinion handed Sunak the short straw which he has obviously struggled with

    I wish Starmer and labour well but they have a extraordinary task, indeed even an impossible task, facing them but the demand for change is overwhelming

    I have popped in and out of the forum and enjoyed the vast topics discussed, including how to cook rice, and the more somber Israel war and will continue to do so but maybe not contribute as much as I used to

    PB must be cherished by everyone using it as it is an exceptional discussion forum, even though some get over overexcited, and it is a great credit to those responsible for it

    I did want to provide an update as I am still here, and fighting against the grim reaper

    And as an aside my son and his colleagues feature in a rescue by Llandudno RNLI on Thursday on BBC2 saving lives at sea documentary

    My best wishes to all

    Don’t let the bastards get you down! Looking forward to watching your son and his colleagues on Thursday. Mrs. F got a DVT on the flight home from our Silver Wedding holiday. She was on blood thinners for a number of years, but has been ok for many years since, and is looking forward to our Golden Wedding in 2025.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161
    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    There are an increasing number of voices raising the alarm over the electoral consequences for the Democrats over Biden's support for Israel.

    https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/biden-israel-palestine-policy-election/

    Biden risks labeling himself as a president who is in favor of colonization, and one who will turn a blind eye to ethnic cleansing and war crimes—and those are tough labels to shake once they take hold in communities of color.

    Yes, it is a significant risk for Biden; it could well see lots of young progressives (who would otherwise be motivated by abortion) stay home.

    It's also a significant longer-term risk for Israel. If there are no longer votes in defending Israel, then it suddenly looks a lot more vulnerable than it did.
    In the end, how many will turn against the Democrats, over US support for Israel?
    It's more, how many - who would have gone out to vote against Trump and for legal abortion - will choose to stay home?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161

    Also from previous thread: Is abortion totally banned in any American state?

    Not according to the pro-abortion Guttmacher Institute. (Their headlines say banned, but the article text modifies that with "Near-total" for every state where it is "banned".)
    https://www.guttmacher.org/2023/01/six-months-post-roe-24-us-states-have-banned-abortion-or-are-likely-do-so-roundup


    I had an argument on Twitter about a year ago, with someone who was convinced that the Democrats wanted to remove all limits on abortion. He was absolutely adamant in this position. (The irony is that the only state which allows abortion at any time pre-term is a Republican one.)
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,999
    edited October 2023
    And again from previous thread: Andy_JS asked for an explanation for Trump's supporters. That's a big question, but I can give two quick places to start.

    First, there are many historical precedents for Trump; we have had our share of corrupt politicians and demagogues.

    Second, there are serious problems in the US that our leftist leaders have been unwillling to confront: To me the most important one is the weakening of the family, and the drop out of so many American men from work. (About 1 in 6 American men aged 25-54 are neither in school nor working, at a time when there are many unfilled jobs.)

    Total fertility rates fell sharply during the Obama administration, and have not recovered. Life expectancy -- in spite of many advances in medicine -- began to fall during the last years of the Obama administration, and has not recovered.
  • Bill Kenwright has died.
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    eek said:

    . . . and another one bites the dust . . .

    AP (via Seattle Times) - Jenna Ellis becomes latest Trump lawyer to plead guilty over efforts to overturn Georgia’s election

    ATLANTA (AP) — Attorney and prominent conservative media figure Jenna Ellis pleaded guilty on Tuesday to a felony charge over efforts to overturn Donald Trump’s 2020 election loss in Georgia, tearfully telling the judge she looks back on that time with “deep remorse.”

    Ellis, the fourth defendant in the case to enter into a plea deal, was a vocal part of Trump’s reelection campaign in the last presidential cycle and was charged alongside the Republican former president and 17 others with violating the state’s anti-racketeering law.

    Ellis pleaded guilty to one felony count of aiding and abetting false statements and writings. She had been facing charges of violating Georgia’s Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act and soliciting the violation of oath by a public officer, both felonies.

    She rose to speak after pleading guilty, fighting back tears as she said she would have not have represented Trump after the 2020 election if she knew then what she knows now, claiming that she she relied on lawyers with much more experience than her and failed to verify the things they told her.

    “What I did not do but should have done, Your Honor, was to make sure that the facts the other lawyers alleged to be true were in fact true,” the 38-year-old Ellis said.

    I suspect everyone they wish to use against Trump will be offered (and accept) a plea bargain.

    Leaving the final case to be all the original defendants offering evidence against Trump and Rudy...
    Yet he is still the 2.9 fav for the WH. That price, for me, is one of the wonders of the world. I can sit looking at it for hours.
    What can actually damage Trump electorally though? His supporters treat him as a god, and the independents dont like Biden or the direction of the country.

    The only shifts I expect are for swing voters based on the economy and household finances, which could go either way. The rest is noise.
    I'm taking a different view. I think it's not tenable (even in this crazy world) to have as a candidate for US president a guy who is likely going down for election fraud and racketeering, and I think this will dawn on enough people (and in time) such that come November he won't be on the ballot. I realize I'm almost alone on here with this but that's all the better so long as I'm right. And I really am confident about it. Maybe I shouldn't be but I am. We will see. The next year will be fascinating.
    So no specific event? Just a general feeling of had enough?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863
    On topic.

    Whoppie doo!

    Mega bankers' bonuses are back!
  • IanB2 said:

    On topic.

    Whoppie doo!

    Mega bankers' bonuses are back!

    An unfairly maligned sector can now go back to paying staff decent wages.

    I might go canvassing for the Tories now.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,999
    My apologies for these FPT comments. The time difference, 8 hours usually, often makes it harder for me to join conversations when they are ongoing.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    eek said:

    . . . and another one bites the dust . . .

    AP (via Seattle Times) - Jenna Ellis becomes latest Trump lawyer to plead guilty over efforts to overturn Georgia’s election

    ATLANTA (AP) — Attorney and prominent conservative media figure Jenna Ellis pleaded guilty on Tuesday to a felony charge over efforts to overturn Donald Trump’s 2020 election loss in Georgia, tearfully telling the judge she looks back on that time with “deep remorse.”

    Ellis, the fourth defendant in the case to enter into a plea deal, was a vocal part of Trump’s reelection campaign in the last presidential cycle and was charged alongside the Republican former president and 17 others with violating the state’s anti-racketeering law.

    Ellis pleaded guilty to one felony count of aiding and abetting false statements and writings. She had been facing charges of violating Georgia’s Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act and soliciting the violation of oath by a public officer, both felonies.

    She rose to speak after pleading guilty, fighting back tears as she said she would have not have represented Trump after the 2020 election if she knew then what she knows now, claiming that she she relied on lawyers with much more experience than her and failed to verify the things they told her.

    “What I did not do but should have done, Your Honor, was to make sure that the facts the other lawyers alleged to be true were in fact true,” the 38-year-old Ellis said.

    I suspect everyone they wish to use against Trump will be offered (and accept) a plea bargain.

    Leaving the final case to be all the original defendants offering evidence against Trump and Rudy...
    Yet he is still the 2.9 fav for the WH. That price, for me, is one of the wonders of the world. I can sit looking at it for hours.
    What can actually damage Trump electorally though? His supporters treat him as a god, and the independents dont like Biden or the direction of the country.

    The only shifts I expect are for swing voters based on the economy and household finances, which could go either way. The rest is noise.
    I'm taking a different view. I think it's not tenable (even in this crazy world) to have as a candidate for US president a guy who is likely going down for election fraud and racketeering, and I think this will dawn on enough people (and in time) such that come November he won't be on the ballot. I realize I'm almost alone on here with this but that's all the better so long as I'm right. And I really am confident about it. Maybe I shouldn't be but I am. We will see. The next year will be fascinating.
    So no specific event? Just a general feeling of had enough?
    Probably a small event, one from a long list of small events that breaks the camel's back (or in this case the elephant's back). It would be impossible to tell.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    "Holy ****, Massive Rocket Attack all across Central Israel!"

    https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1716817644068958232

    Yet some want Israel not to respond.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,091
    edited October 2023

    Also from previous thread: Is abortion totally banned in any American state?

    Not according to the pro-abortion Guttmacher Institute. (Their headlines say banned, but the article text modifies that with "Near-total" for every state where it is "banned".)
    https://www.guttmacher.org/2023/01/six-months-post-roe-24-us-states-have-banned-abortion-or-are-likely-do-so-roundup

    According to this, Alabama has a total abortion ban.

    https://reproductiverights.org/maps/abortion-laws-by-state/?state=AL
    https://reproductiverights.org/maps/abortion-laws-by-state/
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,091
    edited October 2023
    rcs1000 said:

    Also from previous thread: Is abortion totally banned in any American state?

    Not according to the pro-abortion Guttmacher Institute. (Their headlines say banned, but the article text modifies that with "Near-total" for every state where it is "banned".)
    https://www.guttmacher.org/2023/01/six-months-post-roe-24-us-states-have-banned-abortion-or-are-likely-do-so-roundup


    I had an argument on Twitter about a year ago, with someone who was convinced that the Democrats wanted to remove all limits on abortion. He was absolutely adamant in this position. (The irony is that the only state which allows abortion at any time pre-term is a Republican one.)
    It's True! It's In His Timeline! On His Phone! Look, Look! It Must Be True If It's On The Internet!

    :(:(:(
  • Surprised the usual suspects didn't post this showing Biden's Trump's mental decline.

    Trump: I was very honored, there’s a man, Viktor Orbán. He’s the leader of Turkey

    https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1716539683990114683
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,497

    rcs1000 said:

    Has anyone watched Slow Horses?

    I watched the first episode last night, and - my God - what an amazing cast squandered.

    The opening scene - which you discover later is a training exercise - makes absolutely no sense at all. (And the more you think about it, the more ridiculous it appears.)

    People who aren't complete muppets have nice things to say about it. Which means I may stick with it. But boy, was it pants.

    I haven't seen it but best buddy tells me the only thing good about it is the Stones theme tune.
    Stick to the wonderful books and you can't go wrong. It would be like trying to televise Dickens. These worlds only exist in the visual imagination where the pictures are great.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    There are an increasing number of voices raising the alarm over the electoral consequences for the Democrats over Biden's support for Israel.

    https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/biden-israel-palestine-policy-election/

    Biden risks labeling himself as a president who is in favor of colonization, and one who will turn a blind eye to ethnic cleansing and war crimes—and those are tough labels to shake once they take hold in communities of color.

    Yes, it is a significant risk for Biden; it could well see lots of young progressives (who would otherwise be motivated by abortion) stay home.

    It's also a significant longer-term risk for Israel. If there are no longer votes in defending Israel, then it suddenly looks a lot more vulnerable than it did.
    In the end, how many will turn against the Democrats, over US support for Israel?
    The concern is more that they sit on their hands, I think ?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,090

    . . . and another one bites the dust . . .

    AP (via Seattle Times) - Jenna Ellis becomes latest Trump lawyer to plead guilty over efforts to overturn Georgia’s election

    ATLANTA (AP) — Attorney and prominent conservative media figure Jenna Ellis pleaded guilty on Tuesday to a felony charge over efforts to overturn Donald Trump’s 2020 election loss in Georgia, tearfully telling the judge she looks back on that time with “deep remorse.”

    Ellis, the fourth defendant in the case to enter into a plea deal, was a vocal part of Trump’s reelection campaign in the last presidential cycle and was charged alongside the Republican former president and 17 others with violating the state’s anti-racketeering law.

    Ellis pleaded guilty to one felony count of aiding and abetting false statements and writings. She had been facing charges of violating Georgia’s Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act and soliciting the violation of oath by a public officer, both felonies.

    She rose to speak after pleading guilty, fighting back tears as she said she would have not have represented Trump after the 2020 election if she knew then what she knows now, claiming that she she relied on lawyers with much more experience than her and failed to verify the things they told her.

    “What I did not do but should have done, Your Honor, was to make sure that the facts the other lawyers alleged to be true were in fact true,” the 38-year-old Ellis said.

    A lot of Jan 6 insurrectionists have pled guilty and cried crocodile tears, and then when they got a light sentence, went around saying that they didn't mean it and Trump won blah blah. I wonder whether Powell, Ellis etc. will be doing the rounds of Fox News saying they didn't mean any of this, or is there a way they can be restrained from doing that?
  • Not sure if this has been mentioned already but this is pretty poor from our Canadian cousins.

    https://news.sky.com/story/mp-prevented-from-boarding-flight-because-his-name-was-mohammed-12991247
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,999
    rcs1000 - You can probably find an interesting example of the other extreme on abortion if you search on Obama + "born alive" bill.
  • Surprised the usual suspects didn't post this showing Biden's Trump's mental decline.

    Trump: I was very honored, there’s a man, Viktor Orbán. He’s the leader of Turkey

    https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1716539683990114683

    I am pretty sure it was posted on one of the recent threads. But probably not by Biden-bashers
This discussion has been closed.