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How Christmas could come early for Ed Davey – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,727
edited October 2023 in General
How Christmas could come early for Ed Davey – politicalbetting.com

** EXCLUSIVE **Rishi Sunak does not rule out Nigel Farage joining the Tory Party, saying the party is a “broad church”https://t.co/0papBkz6IA

Read the full story here

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  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,596
    First. And good to see you posting Mike!!
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,490
    Quickly find Nige a safe seat and install him in the HoC. Oh wait...safe seat?
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,792
    Shapps reckons we don't need HS2 to Manchester due to changing travel patterns.

    And yet Avanti see the need for a train between Euston and Manchester every 20 minutes.

    Let's see what gets announced for Northern Poorhouse Rail. New line through Bradford? Hmm.
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    Smart51Smart51 Posts: 52
    Nigel Farage joins the Tories before they lose the election. Suella Braverman becomes leader after. A few think it's their dream come true. Millions will look for a new home.
  • Options
    Today's big announcement - Farage.
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    Shapps reckons we don't need HS2 to Manchester due to changing travel patterns.

    And yet Avanti see the need for a train between Euston and Manchester every 20 minutes.

    Let's see what gets announced for Northern Poorhouse Rail. New line through Bradford? Hmm.

    Non-commuting rail travel is +130% vs pre-Covid...
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,189
    Anyone else find the expression "Northern Powerhouse" cringeworthy?
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,928
    edited October 2023
    Smart51 said:

    Nigel Farage joins the Tories before they lose the election. Suella Braverman becomes leader after. A few think it's their dream come true. Millions will look for a new home.

    Surely if Farage joined the Tories he'd want a safe* seat at the GE and would then win the leadership after Sunak departs?

    (*If such a thing exists. Edit: as MexicanPete already notes)
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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,150

    Today's big announcement - Farage.

    To join the Cabinet as Minister Without Shame?

    Oh, sorry, that position is already taken.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,543
    Ed Davey…give me a minute….used to be in the Coalition? Him?
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,225
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/04/tories-final-descent-absurdity-manchester-conference

    "there is something disturbing about a regime that is too ridiculous to trust with power yet is too powerful to be written off with ridicule."
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    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,798
    Today's big announcement - the North now starts at Watford
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,814
    DavidL said:

    Ed Davey…give me a minute….used to be in the Coalition? Him?

    Yeah, but it was under duress (think that's his argument, now).
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    Smart51Smart51 Posts: 52

    Surely if Farage joined the Tories he'd want a safe* seat at the GE and would then win the leadership after Sunak departs?

    (*If such a thing exists. Edit: as MexicanPete already notes)

    Even the worst forecast is for the Tories to keep 50 seats. 100+ is more common. Persuading someone to give up theirs for Farage might be a big ask.

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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,543

    FPT - the economic premise of HS2 is to give the North and northerners a taste of the highly globalised services sector that London and the SE enjoy, and are thus much wealthier as a result. So it delivers levelling up through that mechanism.

    That's why it taps in all the key northern cities into Heathrow and London, or should have done: the connectivity* opens up far more options for them for global trade.

    (*forget all the economically moronic bullshit you hear about sucking in even more investment and workers into London - the exact opposite is true - and you can test it through the counter-argument that on that basis you'd tear up the M40, M6, M1 and WCML, which I think we'd all agree would be insane)

    Yes. We still have a very successful economy in the south east and London. Any sane government would prioritise spreading that growth around more of the country.
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,967
    DavidL said:

    Ed Davey…give me a minute….used to be in the Coalition? Him?

    The coalition, and Davey, are a living reminder to centre-right minded voters in the home counties of just how far the current incarnation of the Tory party has gone beyond the various pales laid out in front of them since 2015. A vote for the Lib Dems somewhere like Wokingham is almost tantamount to a nostalgia vote.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,928
    The Conservatives and Man Utd competing in the race to trash their respective reputations right now.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,543
    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    Ed Davey…give me a minute….used to be in the Coalition? Him?

    The coalition, and Davey, are a living reminder to centre-right minded voters in the home counties of just how far the current incarnation of the Tory party has gone beyond the various pales laid out in front of them since 2015. A vote for the Lib Dems somewhere like Wokingham is almost tantamount to a nostalgia vote.
    It’s where I am heading but nostalgia is not what it used to be.
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    eekeek Posts: 25,099
    FPT
    Nigelb said:

    HS2 is being announced now, early this morning, so it clears the airwaves for other stuff when Sunak makes his speech later today.

    So something is coming.

    Free chess set for every house?
    We've already had a preview.

    ...We’ve already had a sneak preview of some of the things Rishi Sunak will say in his speech later, and in it he’ll reflect on his first year as prime minister.

    He will say that “politics doesn’t work the way it should”, before setting out how he wants to change the way our political system works and end the 30-year political status quo.

    “We’ve had 30 years of a political system which incentivises the easy decision, not the right one” he will tell the Conservative Party Conference.

    “Our political system is too focused on short term advantage, not long-term success. Our mission is to fundamentally change our country.”..


    Sorry HS2 and NPR built in full is the right long term decision - the easy political decision to save a few quid now is to cancel HS2 because if you don't understand the difference between day to day expenditure and one off investment spending it looks like it provides a few pounds to be spent elsewhere.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,928
    DavidL said:

    Ed Davey…give me a minute….used to be in the Coalition? Him?

    That's right, the current state of the country is no longer all Gordon Brown's fault, it's the LD's too.
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    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,056
    Smart51 said:

    Nigel Farage joins the Tories before they lose the election. Suella Braverman becomes leader after. A few think it's their dream come true. Millions will look for a new home.

    The prospect makes emigrating to Rwanda look attractive.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,288

    Shapps reckons we don't need HS2 to Manchester due to changing travel patterns.

    And yet Avanti see the need for a train between Euston and Manchester every 20 minutes.

    Let's see what gets announced for Northern Poorhouse Rail. New line through Bradford? Hmm.

    ‘HS2 was meant to connect country as never before. What’s changed?

    ‘Coronavirus’ - Grant Sharps today
    @BBCr4today


    ‘There’s no doubt whatsoever major projects such as HS2 should continue despite reduction in travel caused by coronavirus’
    -Grant Shapps Transport Sec, July 2021
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    glwglw Posts: 9,556

    FPT - the economic premise of HS2 is to give the North and northerners a taste of the highly globalised services sector that London and the SE enjoy, and are thus much wealthier as a result. So it delivers levelling up through that mechanism.

    That's why it taps in all the key northern cities into Heathrow and London, or should have done: the connectivity* opens up far more options for them for global trade.

    (*forget all the economically moronic bullshit you hear about sucking in even more investment and workers into London - the exact opposite is true - and you can test it through the counter-argument that on that basis you'd tear up the M40, M6, M1 and WCML, which I think we'd all agree would be insane)

    Exactly. If you make travel quicker and easier people are more inclined to do it. Any city with improved transport should perform better economically.
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    The Conservatives and Man Utd competing in the race to trash their respective reputations right now.

    Man Utd are winning in the amount of scandals involving right wingers for the moment.
  • Options
    glw said:

    FPT - the economic premise of HS2 is to give the North and northerners a taste of the highly globalised services sector that London and the SE enjoy, and are thus much wealthier as a result. So it delivers levelling up through that mechanism.

    That's why it taps in all the key northern cities into Heathrow and London, or should have done: the connectivity* opens up far more options for them for global trade.

    (*forget all the economically moronic bullshit you hear about sucking in even more investment and workers into London - the exact opposite is true - and you can test it through the counter-argument that on that basis you'd tear up the M40, M6, M1 and WCML, which I think we'd all agree would be insane)

    Exactly. If you make travel quicker and easier people are more inclined to do it. Any city with improved transport should perform better economically.
    So why does Peterborough so regularly appear in those 'turdtowns' lists ?
  • Options
    The Rest is Politics: Theresa May
    An hour of Alastair Campbell & Rory Stewart interviewing our greatest prime minister since Gordon Brown.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5Q5__rx67M
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,596
    eek said:

    FPT

    Nigelb said:

    HS2 is being announced now, early this morning, so it clears the airwaves for other stuff when Sunak makes his speech later today.

    So something is coming.

    Free chess set for every house?
    We've already had a preview.

    ...We’ve already had a sneak preview of some of the things Rishi Sunak will say in his speech later, and in it he’ll reflect on his first year as prime minister.

    He will say that “politics doesn’t work the way it should”, before setting out how he wants to change the way our political system works and end the 30-year political status quo.

    “We’ve had 30 years of a political system which incentivises the easy decision, not the right one” he will tell the Conservative Party Conference.

    “Our political system is too focused on short term advantage, not long-term success. Our mission is to fundamentally change our country.”..


    Sorry HS2 and NPR built in full is the right long term decision - the easy political decision to save a few quid now is to cancel HS2 because if you don't understand the difference between day to day expenditure and one off investment spending it looks like it provides a few pounds to be spent elsewhere.
    It is Orwellian in the ability to subvert the language. A long term decision is actually a short term fix.
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    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,056
    glw said:

    FPT - the economic premise of HS2 is to give the North and northerners a taste of the highly globalised services sector that London and the SE enjoy, and are thus much wealthier as a result. So it delivers levelling up through that mechanism.

    That's why it taps in all the key northern cities into Heathrow and London, or should have done: the connectivity* opens up far more options for them for global trade.

    (*forget all the economically moronic bullshit you hear about sucking in even more investment and workers into London - the exact opposite is true - and you can test it through the counter-argument that on that basis you'd tear up the M40, M6, M1 and WCML, which I think we'd all agree would be insane)

    Exactly. If you make travel quicker and easier people are more inclined to do it. Any city with improved transport should perform better economically.
    Is that what worries the Treasury? The fact that other places could catch up with London?
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,288
    @KateEMcCann

    NEW: Mayor of West Midlands Andy Street has cancelled a planned trip abroad today to stick around for the PM’s speech. Unclear whether he’ll listen in hall. When asked if he will resign his spox: “We intend to listen to PM speech and respond accordingly”


    Andy Street resigning would indeed be a surprise announcement during Richi's speech...
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    geoffw said:

    Anyone else find the expression "Northern Powerhouse" cringeworthy?

    Its okay, Rishi is rebranding it to Northern Toolshed next conference.
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    eekeek Posts: 25,099
    glw said:

    FPT - the economic premise of HS2 is to give the North and northerners a taste of the highly globalised services sector that London and the SE enjoy, and are thus much wealthier as a result. So it delivers levelling up through that mechanism.

    That's why it taps in all the key northern cities into Heathrow and London, or should have done: the connectivity* opens up far more options for them for global trade.

    (*forget all the economically moronic bullshit you hear about sucking in even more investment and workers into London - the exact opposite is true - and you can test it through the counter-argument that on that basis you'd tear up the M40, M6, M1 and WCML, which I think we'd all agree would be insane)

    Exactly. If you make travel quicker and easier people are more inclined to do it. Any city with improved transport should perform better economically.
    The only thing this pause actually does is allow a sane plan to be created where we use HS2 as the starting point for a loop railway that runs - London, Birmingham, Crewe, Manchester, Bradford, Leeds, Sheffield, Nottingham/Derbyshire, Birmingham, London...

    Basically combine HS2 and NPR to a single core route...

    And to do that I would also move Parliament to Bradford
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,233
    Sunak might not rule out Farage joining the Conservatives at some stage but he is highly unlikely to allow him to be a parliamentary candidate.

    However even the possibility of linking Farage to the Conservatives will be used by the LDs in bluewall target seats. Links to Farage may help the Conservatives in redwall Leave seats but they would not help the Conservatives in bluewall Remain seats
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,543

    The Conservatives and Man Utd competing in the race to trash their respective reputations right now.

    Man Utd are winning in the amount of scandals involving right wingers for the moment.
    We have had problems with left wingers too. Surely Ten Hag is at the end of the road?
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,131

    glw said:

    FPT - the economic premise of HS2 is to give the North and northerners a taste of the highly globalised services sector that London and the SE enjoy, and are thus much wealthier as a result. So it delivers levelling up through that mechanism.

    That's why it taps in all the key northern cities into Heathrow and London, or should have done: the connectivity* opens up far more options for them for global trade.

    (*forget all the economically moronic bullshit you hear about sucking in even more investment and workers into London - the exact opposite is true - and you can test it through the counter-argument that on that basis you'd tear up the M40, M6, M1 and WCML, which I think we'd all agree would be insane)

    Exactly. If you make travel quicker and easier people are more inclined to do it. Any city with improved transport should perform better economically.
    So why does Peterborough so regularly appear in those 'turdtowns' lists ?
    Quite. Excellent connections to north and south on the ECML, and direct cross links to Leicester/Bham and to Cambridge.
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    DavidL said:

    Ed Davey…give me a minute….used to be in the Coalition? Him?

    That's right, the current state of the country is no longer all Gordon Brown's fault, it's the LD's too.
    Something magical about Tories trying to discredit an opponent with mentions of their association with the..er..Tories.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,543
    HYUFD said:

    Sunak might not rule out Farage joining the Conservatives at some stage but he is highly unlikely to allow him to be a parliamentary candidate.

    However even the possibility of linking Farage to the Conservatives will be used by the LDs in bluewall target seats. Links to Farage may help the Conservatives in redwall Leave seats but they would not help the Conservatives in bluewall Remain seats

    Or generally. Farage comes with serious baggage, much of it deeply unpleasant.
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    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,798

    FPT - the economic premise of HS2 is to give the North and northerners a taste of the highly globalised services sector that London and the SE enjoy, and are thus much wealthier as a result. So it delivers levelling up through that mechanism.

    That's why it taps in all the key northern cities into Heathrow and London, or should have done: the connectivity* opens up far more options for them for global trade.

    (*forget all the economically moronic bullshit you hear about sucking in even more investment and workers into London - the exact opposite is true - and you can test it through the counter-argument that on that basis you'd tear up the M40, M6, M1 and WCML, which I think we'd all agree would be insane)

    Hold on, your argument for saying that London-centric transport infrastructure not benefiting London at the expense of those places connected to London is... to point out how well connected London already is?

    I don't have a view on this, but your last paragraph is quite unpersuasive.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,166
    geoffw said:

    Anyone else find the expression "Northern Powerhouse" cringeworthy?

    Sunak, evidently, as he's shafted it.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,233
    Smart51 said:

    Nigel Farage joins the Tories before they lose the election. Suella Braverman becomes leader after. A few think it's their dream come true. Millions will look for a new home.

    Braverman might win the Conservative membership vote but would be unlikely to get enough Conservative MPs votes to make the final 2. When she stood for the leadership last year she didn't even make the final 5 with Tory MPs let alone the final 2
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,131
    HYUFD said:

    Smart51 said:

    Nigel Farage joins the Tories before they lose the election. Suella Braverman becomes leader after. A few think it's their dream come true. Millions will look for a new home.

    Braverman might win the Conservative membership vote but would be unlikely to get enough Conservative MPs votes to make the final 2. When she stood for the leadership last year she didn't even make the final 5 with Tory MPs let alone the final 2
    The situation is not what it was last year. After the current show in Manchester I have absolutely no idea what Tory MPs would vote for in their panic, especially if it's after the election that Mr Sunak is requested to move aside.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,928

    DavidL said:

    Ed Davey…give me a minute….used to be in the Coalition? Him?

    That's right, the current state of the country is no longer all Gordon Brown's fault, it's the LD's too.
    Something magical about Tories trying to discredit an opponent with mentions of their association with the..er..Tories.
    Tbf such an association is a huge embarrassment.

    Good job Sunak, Baverman, et al have nothing to do with Conservatism.
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    FPT - the economic premise of HS2 is to give the North and northerners a taste of the highly globalised services sector that London and the SE enjoy, and are thus much wealthier as a result. So it delivers levelling up through that mechanism.

    That's why it taps in all the key northern cities into Heathrow and London, or should have done: the connectivity* opens up far more options for them for global trade.

    (*forget all the economically moronic bullshit you hear about sucking in even more investment and workers into London - the exact opposite is true - and you can test it through the counter-argument that on that basis you'd tear up the M40, M6, M1 and WCML, which I think we'd all agree would be insane)

    In which case HS2 should have been built from the north southwards.

    I pointed this out on this site a decade ago and speculated that it would be cancelled once the London-Birmingham commuter line had been completed.

    Though I didn't expect the greed and incompetence in HS2 to reach the level it has.

    And having a focus on northern cities will seldom impress people in northern towns.

    Northerners might resent London but what they really tend to dislike is the place 20 miles away doing better than they are.

    I believe Cameron once said "I knew Yorkshiremen hated the rest of the world but I didn't realise they hated each other even more."
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,166
    Smart51 said:

    Nigel Farage joins the Tories before they lose the election. Suella Braverman becomes leader after. A few think it's their dream come true. Millions will look for a new home...

    ..for their vote.
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    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,798

    FPT - the economic premise of HS2 is to give the North and northerners a taste of the highly globalised services sector that London and the SE enjoy, and are thus much wealthier as a result. So it delivers levelling up through that mechanism.

    That's why it taps in all the key northern cities into Heathrow and London, or should have done: the connectivity* opens up far more options for them for global trade.

    (*forget all the economically moronic bullshit you hear about sucking in even more investment and workers into London - the exact opposite is true - and you can test it through the counter-argument that on that basis you'd tear up the M40, M6, M1 and WCML, which I think we'd all agree would be insane)

    In which case HS2 should have been built from the north southwards.

    I pointed this out on this site a decade ago and speculated that it would be cancelled once the London-Birmingham commuter line had been completed.

    Though I didn't expect the greed and incompetence in HS2 to reach the level it has.

    And having a focus on northern cities will seldom impress people in northern towns.

    Northerners might resent London but what they really tend to dislike is the place 20 miles away doing better than they are.

    I believe Cameron once said "I knew Yorkshiremen hated the rest of the world but I didn't realise they hated each other even more."
    In my experience this isn't just a northern phenomenon. Londoners too seem to get quite snippy with each other if you come from the wrong bank of the Thames. Cardiff and Swansea don't seem overly friendly to each other. Ditto Auld Reekie and Glesga.
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    kjhkjh Posts: 10,717
    edited October 2023
    Nigel Farage doesn't have to join the Tory party for the LDs to use this (or come to that Labour, but less so in the Redwall seats). The fact that he has been at the conference and welcomed with open arms by so many and even Rishi doesn't rule it out is enough for it to appear on leaflets.
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    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,056
    HYUFD said:

    Smart51 said:

    Nigel Farage joins the Tories before they lose the election. Suella Braverman becomes leader after. A few think it's their dream come true. Millions will look for a new home.

    Braverman might win the Conservative membership vote but would be unlikely to get enough Conservative MPs votes to make the final 2. When she stood for the leadership last year she didn't even make the final 5 with Tory MPs let alone the final 2
    Won’t that depend on the makeup of the parliamentary Conservative party after the next election?
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    Carnyx said:

    glw said:

    FPT - the economic premise of HS2 is to give the North and northerners a taste of the highly globalised services sector that London and the SE enjoy, and are thus much wealthier as a result. So it delivers levelling up through that mechanism.

    That's why it taps in all the key northern cities into Heathrow and London, or should have done: the connectivity* opens up far more options for them for global trade.

    (*forget all the economically moronic bullshit you hear about sucking in even more investment and workers into London - the exact opposite is true - and you can test it through the counter-argument that on that basis you'd tear up the M40, M6, M1 and WCML, which I think we'd all agree would be insane)

    Exactly. If you make travel quicker and easier people are more inclined to do it. Any city with improved transport should perform better economically.
    So why does Peterborough so regularly appear in those 'turdtowns' lists ?
    Quite. Excellent connections to north and south on the ECML, and direct cross links to Leicester/Bham and to Cambridge.
    It's a city with a Henrican Cathedral.
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    Scott_xP said:

    @KateEMcCann

    NEW: Mayor of West Midlands Andy Street has cancelled a planned trip abroad today to stick around for the PM’s speech. Unclear whether he’ll listen in hall. When asked if he will resign his spox: “We intend to listen to PM speech and respond accordingly”


    Andy Street resigning would indeed be a surprise announcement during Richi's speech...

    Can we have a Kinnock '85 style flounce where Street channels Eric Heffer? If the big unveil for the speech really is the Nigel then who else may flounce?
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    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,056

    The Conservatives and Man Utd competing in the race to trash their respective reputations right now.

    Another justification for HS2 - to make it easier for Man U fans to get to home games.
    Another reason for cancelling HS2 - Man U no longer worth watching.
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    glwglw Posts: 9,556

    glw said:

    FPT - the economic premise of HS2 is to give the North and northerners a taste of the highly globalised services sector that London and the SE enjoy, and are thus much wealthier as a result. So it delivers levelling up through that mechanism.

    That's why it taps in all the key northern cities into Heathrow and London, or should have done: the connectivity* opens up far more options for them for global trade.

    (*forget all the economically moronic bullshit you hear about sucking in even more investment and workers into London - the exact opposite is true - and you can test it through the counter-argument that on that basis you'd tear up the M40, M6, M1 and WCML, which I think we'd all agree would be insane)

    Exactly. If you make travel quicker and easier people are more inclined to do it. Any city with improved transport should perform better economically.
    So why does Peterborough so regularly appear in those 'turdtowns' lists ?
    Obviously transport alone doesn't make a city successful. But if you had two otherwise similar cities and one had good transport and the other poor transport it is very likely that the one with good transport would have a more productive economy.

    If you measure transport by the costs your inclination might be to stop people moving around so much. That's not all we should be looking at, it's the benefits that matter as much, good transport unlocks opportunities.

    Generally transport infrastructure in the UK always gets used, even if it costs a lot and takes ages to deliver. If we ever do fully build HS2 I'd expect it to be heavily used.
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    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,643
    I see that the SoS for Defence has been doing the media rounds this morning. I rather think he's misunderstood his new job.

    It's defence of the country Mr Shapps, not defence of the Tory Party.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,679

    The Rest is Politics: Theresa May
    An hour of Alastair Campbell & Rory Stewart interviewing our greatest prime minister since Gordon Brown.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5Q5__rx67M

    Wow. I struggle to think of many less tempting ways to spend an hour that don't involve stapling my private parts to a snooker table.
  • Options

    FPT - the economic premise of HS2 is to give the North and northerners a taste of the highly globalised services sector that London and the SE enjoy, and are thus much wealthier as a result. So it delivers levelling up through that mechanism.

    That's why it taps in all the key northern cities into Heathrow and London, or should have done: the connectivity* opens up far more options for them for global trade.

    (*forget all the economically moronic bullshit you hear about sucking in even more investment and workers into London - the exact opposite is true - and you can test it through the counter-argument that on that basis you'd tear up the M40, M6, M1 and WCML, which I think we'd all agree would be insane)

    In which case HS2 should have been built from the north southwards.

    I pointed this out on this site a decade ago and speculated that it would be cancelled once the London-Birmingham commuter line had been completed.

    Though I didn't expect the greed and incompetence in HS2 to reach the level it has.

    And having a focus on northern cities will seldom impress people in northern towns.

    Northerners might resent London but what they really tend to dislike is the place 20 miles away doing better than they are.

    I believe Cameron once said "I knew Yorkshiremen hated the rest of the world but I didn't realise they hated each other even more."
    You can't build it that way round. The more traffic is added the worse the congestion. So the worst section is south of Milton Keynes. Building high speed from Manchester and then dumping that traffic onto the existing 4 track mainline - the Hanslope connector in reverse - would have been crazy.
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    Farooq said:

    FPT - the economic premise of HS2 is to give the North and northerners a taste of the highly globalised services sector that London and the SE enjoy, and are thus much wealthier as a result. So it delivers levelling up through that mechanism.

    That's why it taps in all the key northern cities into Heathrow and London, or should have done: the connectivity* opens up far more options for them for global trade.

    (*forget all the economically moronic bullshit you hear about sucking in even more investment and workers into London - the exact opposite is true - and you can test it through the counter-argument that on that basis you'd tear up the M40, M6, M1 and WCML, which I think we'd all agree would be insane)

    In which case HS2 should have been built from the north southwards.

    I pointed this out on this site a decade ago and speculated that it would be cancelled once the London-Birmingham commuter line had been completed.

    Though I didn't expect the greed and incompetence in HS2 to reach the level it has.

    And having a focus on northern cities will seldom impress people in northern towns.

    Northerners might resent London but what they really tend to dislike is the place 20 miles away doing better than they are.

    I believe Cameron once said "I knew Yorkshiremen hated the rest of the world but I didn't realise they hated each other even more."
    In my experience this isn't just a northern phenomenon. Londoners too seem to get quite snippy with each other if you come from the wrong bank of the Thames. Cardiff and Swansea don't seem overly friendly to each other. Ditto Auld Reekie and Glesga.
    Southampton-Portsmouth
    Newcastle-Sunderland
    Norfolk-Suffolk
    Devon-Cornwall
    Jersey-Guernsey

    It seems to be a regular pattern only varying by the strength of the dislike.
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,071
    Scott_xP said:

    Shapps reckons we don't need HS2 to Manchester due to changing travel patterns.

    And yet Avanti see the need for a train between Euston and Manchester every 20 minutes.

    Let's see what gets announced for Northern Poorhouse Rail. New line through Bradford? Hmm.

    ‘HS2 was meant to connect country as never before. What’s changed?

    ‘Coronavirus’ - Grant Sharps today
    @BBCr4today


    ‘There’s no doubt whatsoever major projects such as HS2 should continue despite reduction in travel caused by coronavirus’
    -Grant Shapps Transport Sec, July 2021
    Over 2 years ago now. Keep up Scott.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,501
    Sunak thinks canning HS2 is a vote winner then?
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,679

    Scott_xP said:

    @KateEMcCann

    NEW: Mayor of West Midlands Andy Street has cancelled a planned trip abroad today to stick around for the PM’s speech. Unclear whether he’ll listen in hall. When asked if he will resign his spox: “We intend to listen to PM speech and respond accordingly”


    Andy Street resigning would indeed be a surprise announcement during Richi's speech...

    Can we have a Kinnock '85 style flounce where Street channels Eric Heffer? If the big unveil for the speech really is the Nigel then who else may flounce?
    Is this Nigel thing an extended PB joke along the lines of Bojo's muscle? I don't get it. It ain't happening - clearly nobody saw his furious response to Braverman's speech for a start.
  • Options
    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,056
    glw said:

    glw said:

    FPT - the economic premise of HS2 is to give the North and northerners a taste of the highly globalised services sector that London and the SE enjoy, and are thus much wealthier as a result. So it delivers levelling up through that mechanism.

    That's why it taps in all the key northern cities into Heathrow and London, or should have done: the connectivity* opens up far more options for them for global trade.

    (*forget all the economically moronic bullshit you hear about sucking in even more investment and workers into London - the exact opposite is true - and you can test it through the counter-argument that on that basis you'd tear up the M40, M6, M1 and WCML, which I think we'd all agree would be insane)

    Exactly. If you make travel quicker and easier people are more inclined to do it. Any city with improved transport should perform better economically.
    So why does Peterborough so regularly appear in those 'turdtowns' lists ?
    Obviously transport alone doesn't make a city successful. But if you had two otherwise similar cities and one had good transport and the other poor transport it is very likely that the one with good transport would have a more productive economy.

    If you measure transport by the costs your inclination might be to stop people moving around so much. That's not all we should be looking at, it's the benefits that matter as much, good transport unlocks opportunities.

    Generally transport infrastructure in the UK always gets used, even if it costs a lot and takes ages to deliver. If we ever do fully build HS2 I'd expect it to be heavily used.
    Many of the areas that have suffered most are places that were set up for reasons that no longer exist, but are remote from good transport links. Bradford, Greenock, South Wales Valleys, Consett, for example.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,622
    edited October 2023

    FPT - the economic premise of HS2 is to give the North and northerners a taste of the highly globalised services sector that London and the SE enjoy, and are thus much wealthier as a result. So it delivers levelling up through that mechanism.

    That's why it taps in all the key northern cities into Heathrow and London, or should have done: the connectivity* opens up far more options for them for global trade.

    (*forget all the economically moronic bullshit you hear about sucking in even more investment and workers into London - the exact opposite is true - and you can test it through the counter-argument that on that basis you'd tear up the M40, M6, M1 and WCML, which I think we'd all agree would be insane)

    And we can see the benefit of this approach by looking to Japan and how they've benefited from connecting the country to Tokyo.

    The end state being aimed for is that the whole of Britain is more-or-less a suburb of London, and thereby part of London's economic success.
  • Options

    FPT - the economic premise of HS2 is to give the North and northerners a taste of the highly globalised services sector that London and the SE enjoy, and are thus much wealthier as a result. So it delivers levelling up through that mechanism.

    That's why it taps in all the key northern cities into Heathrow and London, or should have done: the connectivity* opens up far more options for them for global trade.

    (*forget all the economically moronic bullshit you hear about sucking in even more investment and workers into London - the exact opposite is true - and you can test it through the counter-argument that on that basis you'd tear up the M40, M6, M1 and WCML, which I think we'd all agree would be insane)

    And yet the studies that have been done on this indicate that it is not perhaps such "economically moronic bullshit" as you might like it to be.

    https://read.oecd-ilibrary.org/transport/the-wider-economic-benefits-of-transport/recent-evolution-of-research-into-the-wider-economic-benefit-of-transport-infrastructure-investments_9789282101834-3-en#page1

    Looking at the French TGV lines:

    "Generally such services cannot be shown to have had a major impact on the net redistribution of economic activity between Paris and the provincial cities, or on the overall rate of growth of these cities"

    So £180 billion for no signifiant change in the rate of growth of the North.

  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,166

    The Rest is Politics: Theresa May
    An hour of Alastair Campbell & Rory Stewart interviewing our greatest prime minister since Gordon Brown.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5Q5__rx67M

    Wow. I struggle to think of many less tempting ways to spend an hour that don't involve stapling my private parts to a snooker table.
    Do you do that often ?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,166

    Scott_xP said:

    Shapps reckons we don't need HS2 to Manchester due to changing travel patterns.

    And yet Avanti see the need for a train between Euston and Manchester every 20 minutes.

    Let's see what gets announced for Northern Poorhouse Rail. New line through Bradford? Hmm.

    ‘HS2 was meant to connect country as never before. What’s changed?

    ‘Coronavirus’ - Grant Sharps today
    @BBCr4today


    ‘There’s no doubt whatsoever major projects such as HS2 should continue despite reduction in travel caused by coronavirus’
    -Grant Shapps Transport Sec, July 2021
    Over 2 years ago now. Keep up Scott.
    Yes, that's time enough for a dozen Tory flip flops.
    And almost as many cabinet posts for Shapps.
  • Options
    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,056

    The Rest is Politics: Theresa May
    An hour of Alastair Campbell & Rory Stewart interviewing our greatest prime minister since Gordon Brown.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5Q5__rx67M

    Wow. I struggle to think of many less tempting ways to spend an hour that don't involve stapling my private parts to a snooker table.
    Doesn’t that make it hard to pot your balls?
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,131
    edited October 2023

    The Rest is Politics: Theresa May
    An hour of Alastair Campbell & Rory Stewart interviewing our greatest prime minister since Gordon Brown.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5Q5__rx67M

    Wow. I struggle to think of many less tempting ways to spend an hour that don't involve stapling my private parts to a snooker table.
    Doesn’t that make it hard to pot your balls?
    Depends if they go pink and then black, surely.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,679

    The Rest is Politics: Theresa May
    An hour of Alastair Campbell & Rory Stewart interviewing our greatest prime minister since Gordon Brown.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5Q5__rx67M

    Wow. I struggle to think of many less tempting ways to spend an hour that don't involve stapling my private parts to a snooker table.
    Doesn’t that make it hard to pot your balls?
    That's my cue to leave...
  • Options
    kinabalu said:

    Sunak thinks canning HS2 is a vote winner then?

    Probably not, which raises the question what is he going to do instead that he thinks will win votes? Tax cuts? Free owls?
  • Options
    PhilPhil Posts: 1,953
    edited October 2023

    FPT - the economic premise of HS2 is to give the North and northerners a taste of the highly globalised services sector that London and the SE enjoy, and are thus much wealthier as a result. So it delivers levelling up through that mechanism.

    That's why it taps in all the key northern cities into Heathrow and London, or should have done: the connectivity* opens up far more options for them for global trade.

    (*forget all the economically moronic bullshit you hear about sucking in even more investment and workers into London - the exact opposite is true - and you can test it through the counter-argument that on that basis you'd tear up the M40, M6, M1 and WCML, which I think we'd all agree would be insane)

    In which case HS2 should have been built from the north southwards.

    I pointed this out on this site a decade ago and speculated that it would be cancelled once the London-Birmingham commuter line had been completed.

    Though I didn't expect the greed and incompetence in HS2 to reach the level it has.

    And having a focus on northern cities will seldom impress people in northern towns.

    Northerners might resent London but what they really tend to dislike is the place 20 miles away doing better than they are.

    I believe Cameron once said "I knew Yorkshiremen hated the rest of the world but I didn't realise they hated each other even more."
    You can't build it that way round. The more traffic is added the worse the congestion. So the worst section is south of Milton Keynes. Building high speed from Manchester and then dumping that traffic onto the existing 4 track mainline - the Hanslope connector in reverse - would have been crazy.
    We could have built HS3 first though.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,166
    edited October 2023
    Tory mayor Andy Street ‘considering quitting’ over Rishi Sunak HS2 U-turn
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/04/tory-mayor-andy-street-considering-quitting-over-rishi-sunak-hs2-u-turn

    That this can be the case suggests how poorly government has managed the project.
    ...Street has met the prime minister more than once in the last two weeks as he pushed to save the scheme, including persuading some of the project’s largest contractors to offer to slash their own costs. The mayor said on Tuesday: “The prime minister and I spoke last week about the difficulty, and I understand his difficulty and I said I would help him find a solution.”..
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,090
    Nigelb said:
    Yeah, in the same way that I am "considering" going pony trekking with Mamamoo.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,584
    Andrew Boff sounding very reasonable on LBC this morning; Still loyal to his party, although you could tell from his comments about Braverman that he isn't happy with her at all. Says he's been banned from Tory Conference until next year's.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,166
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:
    Yeah, in the same way that I am "considering" going pony trekking with Mamamoo.
    Let's see.
  • Options

    FPT - the economic premise of HS2 is to give the North and northerners a taste of the highly globalised services sector that London and the SE enjoy, and are thus much wealthier as a result. So it delivers levelling up through that mechanism.

    That's why it taps in all the key northern cities into Heathrow and London, or should have done: the connectivity* opens up far more options for them for global trade.

    (*forget all the economically moronic bullshit you hear about sucking in even more investment and workers into London - the exact opposite is true - and you can test it through the counter-argument that on that basis you'd tear up the M40, M6, M1 and WCML, which I think we'd all agree would be insane)

    In which case HS2 should have been built from the north southwards.

    I pointed this out on this site a decade ago and speculated that it would be cancelled once the London-Birmingham commuter line had been completed.

    Though I didn't expect the greed and incompetence in HS2 to reach the level it has.

    And having a focus on northern cities will seldom impress people in northern towns.

    Northerners might resent London but what they really tend to dislike is the place 20 miles away doing better than they are.

    I believe Cameron once said "I knew Yorkshiremen hated the rest of the world but I didn't realise they hated each other even more."
    You can't build it that way round. The more traffic is added the worse the congestion. So the worst section is south of Milton Keynes. Building high speed from Manchester and then dumping that traffic onto the existing 4 track mainline - the Hanslope connector in reverse - would have been crazy.
    I've read before that HS2 couldn't have been built from the north southwards but consider me cynical I can't help noticing that the way it has been built benefits London the most.

    And is there a reason why it couldn't have been built from both ends simultaneously ?
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 8,015
    Sunak: “Our political system is too focused on short term advantage, not long-term success. Our mission is to fundamentally change our country.”

    Whereas, he says, "The Labour Party have set out their stall: to do and say as little as possible and hope no one notices. It is about power for the sake of power."

    So, OK, some good messages here that could work... It just seems odd to pair messages about long-term planning over short term advantage at the same time as you cancel a long-term plan. It seems odd to criticise Labour as wanting to do and say as little as possible when you are doing and saying as little as possible.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,520

    The Conservatives and Man Utd competing in the race to trash their respective reputations right now.

    I've said it before and I will no doubt say it again - it took Liverpool 20+ years to win the League after the fall from the top, and I think it will be the same for United (at least while the Glazers are still there).
  • Options

    FPT - the economic premise of HS2 is to give the North and northerners a taste of the highly globalised services sector that London and the SE enjoy, and are thus much wealthier as a result. So it delivers levelling up through that mechanism.

    That's why it taps in all the key northern cities into Heathrow and London, or should have done: the connectivity* opens up far more options for them for global trade.

    (*forget all the economically moronic bullshit you hear about sucking in even more investment and workers into London - the exact opposite is true - and you can test it through the counter-argument that on that basis you'd tear up the M40, M6, M1 and WCML, which I think we'd all agree would be insane)

    And we can see the benefit of this approach by looking to Japan and how they've benefited from connecting the country to Tokyo.

    The end state being aimed for is that the whole of Britain is more-or-less a suburb of London, and thereby part of London's economic success.
    That's a terrifying idea to me.

    If I wanted to be part of London's 'economic success' I would move there.

    But I don't want to be part of London's unaffordability, inequality or congestion.

    London appeals to some and I genuinely wish them well but the things which work well there are often different to what is needed in other places with other people.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,253
    Street to quit. Truss to takeover?
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,182
    Carnyx said:

    The Rest is Politics: Theresa May
    An hour of Alastair Campbell & Rory Stewart interviewing our greatest prime minister since Gordon Brown.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5Q5__rx67M

    Wow. I struggle to think of many less tempting ways to spend an hour that don't involve stapling my private parts to a snooker table.
    Doesn’t that make it hard to pot your balls?
    Depends if they go pink and then black, surely.
    I think when they go green you should probably stop.
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,071
    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Shapps reckons we don't need HS2 to Manchester due to changing travel patterns.

    And yet Avanti see the need for a train between Euston and Manchester every 20 minutes.

    Let's see what gets announced for Northern Poorhouse Rail. New line through Bradford? Hmm.

    ‘HS2 was meant to connect country as never before. What’s changed?

    ‘Coronavirus’ - Grant Sharps today
    @BBCr4today


    ‘There’s no doubt whatsoever major projects such as HS2 should continue despite reduction in travel caused by coronavirus’
    -Grant Shapps Transport Sec, July 2021
    Over 2 years ago now. Keep up Scott.
    Yes, that's time enough for a dozen Tory flip flops.
    And almost as many cabinet posts for Shapps.
    In this instance a flip is perfectly reasonable. Post-covid is clearly different to pre-covid. We can see that now.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,520

    The Conservatives and Man Utd competing in the race to trash their respective reputations right now.

    Another justification for HS2 - to make it easier for Man U fans to get to home games.
    Ha. At baby swimming on Saturday one of the dads complained that his boy was up all night and his mum then overslept, with the result that said dad couldn't get to Manchester to watch the game. And this was at 11.00 am. In Trowbridge (Wilts, if you don't know)... Didn't seem to have much of a Manchester twang to his Wilthshire accent either!
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 6,045

    Street to quit. Truss to takeover?

    Farage?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,036
    I think the next rate decision will have to be a hold, regardless of falling inflation data - sterling has dropped too much against the dollar recently to risk introducing (more) imported inflation. A rise would send panic signals as well as throttling the economy so a hold it will have to be.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,253

    I see that the SoS for Defence has been doing the media rounds this morning. I rather think he's misunderstood his new job.

    It's defence of the country Mr Shapps, not defence of the Tory Party.

    Grant Shapps is Defence Secretary.

    Michael Green is party chairman.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,413
    Nigelb said:

    Tory mayor Andy Street ‘considering quitting’ over Rishi Sunak HS2 U-turn
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/04/tory-mayor-andy-street-considering-quitting-over-rishi-sunak-hs2-u-turn

    That this can be the case suggests how poorly government has managed the project.
    ...Street has met the prime minister more than once in the last two weeks as he pushed to save the scheme, including persuading some of the project’s largest contractors to offer to slash their own costs. The mayor said on Tuesday: “The prime minister and I spoke last week about the difficulty, and I understand his difficulty and I said I would help him find a solution.”..

    99 times out of 100 politicians who "consider quitting" never do.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,413

    The Rest is Politics: Theresa May
    An hour of Alastair Campbell & Rory Stewart interviewing our greatest prime minister since Gordon Brown.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5Q5__rx67M

    Quality Centrist Dad fodder here.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,679
    ...
    Nigelb said:

    Tory mayor Andy Street ‘considering quitting’ over Rishi Sunak HS2 U-turn
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/04/tory-mayor-andy-street-considering-quitting-over-rishi-sunak-hs2-u-turn

    That this can be the case suggests how poorly government has managed the project.
    ...Street has met the prime minister more than once in the last two weeks as he pushed to save the scheme, including persuading some of the project’s largest contractors to offer to slash their own costs. The mayor said on Tuesday: “The prime minister and I spoke last week about the difficulty, and I understand his difficulty and I said I would help him find a solution.”..

    The bolded says a lot about what a pisstake the project was. And what Street is proposing is essentially a PPP, putting it on a credit card that costs more in the long run - those private funders want their profits.

    All the same, it does seem a missed opportunity not to try to get Street on board with whatever the new 'plan' is. Perhaps it's all choreographed, and he'll be publicly 'thrilled' with Sunak's speech.
  • Options
    El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,904
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:
    Yeah, in the same way that I am "considering" going pony trekking with Mamamoo.
    Why wouldn't Street quit?

    He might stick around to argue the West Midlands' case at the top table. But if Birmingham–Manchester is cancelled despite his entreaties, that clearly counts for nothing.

    He might stick around to get re-elected. Nope. The Conservatives have cratered so much that Street has a better chance of being re-elected as an independent.

    He might stick around in the hope of a Westminster career. Also nope. A Braverman-led Tory party after the next election is not going to be a welcoming place for the likes of Street.

    He might stick around to be the Conservative "king over the water" like Andy Burnham during the Corbyn years. That one's almost plausible. Except that Burnham never became king.

    I reckon he'll quit. At which point we'll see what the floor of the Conservative vote actually is.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,679
    IanB2 said:

    Andrew Boff sounding very reasonable on LBC this morning; Still loyal to his party, although you could tell from his comments about Braverman that he isn't happy with her at all. Says he's been banned from Tory Conference until next year's.

    Braverman issued a statement saying he should be let in.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,036
    edited October 2023

    FPT - the economic premise of HS2 is to give the North and northerners a taste of the highly globalised services sector that London and the SE enjoy, and are thus much wealthier as a result. So it delivers levelling up through that mechanism.

    That's why it taps in all the key northern cities into Heathrow and London, or should have done: the connectivity* opens up far more options for them for global trade.

    (*forget all the economically moronic bullshit you hear about sucking in even more investment and workers into London - the exact opposite is true - and you can test it through the counter-argument that on that basis you'd tear up the M40, M6, M1 and WCML, which I think we'd all agree would be insane)

    In which case HS2 should have been built from the north southwards.

    I pointed this out on this site a decade ago and speculated that it would be cancelled once the London-Birmingham commuter line had been completed.

    Though I didn't expect the greed and incompetence in HS2 to reach the level it has.

    And having a focus on northern cities will seldom impress people in northern towns.

    Northerners might resent London but what they really tend to dislike is the place 20 miles away doing better than they are.

    I believe Cameron once said "I knew Yorkshiremen hated the rest of the world but I didn't realise they hated each other even more."
    You can't build it that way round. The more traffic is added the worse the congestion. So the worst section is south of Milton Keynes. Building high speed from Manchester and then dumping that traffic onto the existing 4 track mainline - the Hanslope connector in reverse - would have been crazy.
    I've read before that HS2 couldn't have been built from the north southwards but consider me cynical I can't help noticing that the way it has been built benefits London the most.

    And is there a reason why it couldn't have been built from both ends simultaneously ?
    Once you're a reasonably set homeowner elsewhere in the country, moving to London becomes pretty much impossible - or at least undesirable with how it'd affect your QoL unless you're happy to go back to renting. I mean what would my ~ 400 odd k of o/s mortgage and equity get me in the big Smoke. Certainly nowhere to keep the better half's rabbits, chickens and guinea pigs !
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,166

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:
    Yeah, in the same way that I am "considering" going pony trekking with Mamamoo.
    Why wouldn't Street quit?

    He might stick around to argue the West Midlands' case at the top table. But if Birmingham–Manchester is cancelled despite his entreaties, that clearly counts for nothing.

    He might stick around to get re-elected. Nope. The Conservatives have cratered so much that Street has a better chance of being re-elected as an independent.

    He might stick around in the hope of a Westminster career. Also nope. A Braverman-led Tory party after the next election is not going to be a welcoming place for the likes of Street.

    He might stick around to be the Conservative "king over the water" like Andy Burnham during the Corbyn years. That one's almost plausible. Except that Burnham never became king.

    I reckon he'll quit. At which point we'll see what the floor of the Conservative vote actually is.
    He never struck me as Mr Ambiguous.

    Perhaps Dura did get that pony trekking invite.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,099

    I see that the SoS for Defence has been doing the media rounds this morning. I rather think he's misunderstood his new job.

    It's defence of the country Mr Shapps, not defence of the Tory Party.

    He prefers to take on the harder tasks - defending this Tory Party is way harder than defending this country...
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,099


    All the same, it does seem a missed opportunity not to try to get Street on board with whatever the new 'plan' is. Perhaps it's all choreographed, and he'll be publicly 'thrilled' with Sunak's speech.

    That requires a level of organisation that this Tory party has failed to demonstrate in the last x months.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,622
    kinabalu said:

    Sunak thinks canning HS2 is a vote winner then?

    It might be. It also creates a challenge for Labour. They basically have three options.

    1. Commit to reverse the decision. In which case they're then committing to cutting all the extra spending/reversing all the tax cuts, that Sunak will promise the saved money will be used for.

    2. Commit to reinstate HS2, without reversing the extra spending/tax cuts, in which case they can be attacked for extra borrowing or plans to increase taxes.

    3. Do nothing. In which case, what is the point of them?

    It's small beans compared to the hole the Tories have dug for themselves. They've spent thirteen years spending money on HS2, and *now* they're deciding to bin it?
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,792
    Is Street thinking of quitting as Mayor or quitting the Tories and staying on as an independent mayor?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,233
    edited October 2023

    HYUFD said:

    Smart51 said:

    Nigel Farage joins the Tories before they lose the election. Suella Braverman becomes leader after. A few think it's their dream come true. Millions will look for a new home.

    Braverman might win the Conservative membership vote but would be unlikely to get enough Conservative MPs votes to make the final 2. When she stood for the leadership last year she didn't even make the final 5 with Tory MPs let alone the final 2
    Won’t that depend on the makeup of the parliamentary Conservative party after the next election?
    If anything the parliamentary Conservative Party will be more southern and less redwall after the next general election given the latter are the marginal seats. Albeit a few bluewall seats will also likely go LD.

    If Tory members alone had the final say then Badenoch or Braverman would be favourite to lead the Conservatives in Opposition but they don't, Tory MPs choose the final 2 and the likes Barclay and Tugendhat therefore have much better chances of reaching that last 2 and becoming leader
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,099

    kinabalu said:

    Sunak thinks canning HS2 is a vote winner then?

    It might be. It also creates a challenge for Labour. They basically have three options.

    1. Commit to reverse the decision. In which case they're then committing to cutting all the extra spending/reversing all the tax cuts, that Sunak will promise the saved money will be used for.

    2. Commit to reinstate HS2, without reversing the extra spending/tax cuts, in which case they can be attacked for extra borrowing or plans to increase taxes.

    3. Do nothing. In which case, what is the point of them?

    It's small beans compared to the hole the Tories have dug for themselves. They've spent thirteen years spending money on HS2, and *now* they're deciding to bin it?
    HS2 is one off capital expenditure -how does that allow a tax cut beyond a very small one from the £x00m "in borrowing costs" saved

    I'm getting to the point where all the Treasury needs to go on a basic finance course -

    This is capital expenditure

    This is ongoing monthly / annual income and expenditure.
  • Options
    nico679nico679 Posts: 5,103
    If Street quits I would be amazed . We’ve seen it all before , a lot of moaning then he’ll say Sunak has done enough to assuage his concerns .
This discussion has been closed.