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Will some be more equal than others? – politicalbetting.com

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  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,603

    Cookie said:

    To be fair, if government said: HS2 cancelled: we're going to give the £96bn we'd earmarked for the IRP for the North and Midlands to Transport for the North and Midlands Connect to hand down to their respective transport authorities to spend on local priorities, so that Transport for Greater Manchester got (checks sums) £6bn to spend on rail - you know, I'd take that.
    But that's not going to happen, is it?

    It all needs to be part of a coherent, planned network, as some of us have been screeching about for years.

    As an example, if you were building a line from the south into Manchester, you might want the station in a certain place. But if you later want to build a west-east line using the same station, then you might want it in a different place, or on a different alignment. This is broad-scope passive provision, and is vital.

    It's a shame that HS2 was not planned as part of a wider network of potential enhancements, and could have been planned as such. NPR should always have been seen as a follow-up, even if it got no funding aside from studies.
    Or indeedy connecting bloody HS2 to HS1.
  • So they want to scrap HS2 phases 2a/b to give the cash to more targeted northern transport schemes. Supposedly wanting to prioritise NPR. So, scrap HS2 2b which included NPR, and instead spend the cash on the Manchester Airport - Piccadilly section of NPR (AKA HS2 phase 2b). Which now costs loads more as it is stand-alone rather than part of HS2.

    Or more likely in the real world they will give money to towns to scrap bus gates and remove cycle lanes and add parking spaces in towns to ensure that people don't have the horror of popping to the local shop as a puppet of the woke illuminati pushing the 15-minute city nightmare.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,932
    edited October 2023
    On topic, the point of this measure is clearly to throw some red meat to the Labour Party's ethnic and other minority base - one of the two core groups the Party has - just before the Party Conference. With Starmer's shameless abandonment of all the pledges he made when he stood for Labour Party leader, he faces the obvious problem of motivating them. Promising them something they already have is of course insulting to their intelligence, but at least gives them a fig leaf to continue justify supporting him.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,223

    Ian Dunt
    @IanDunt
    ·
    2h
    This really is the end for any notion of us functioning as a country. The government is basically saying that it is incapable of delivering a modern rail line. You might as well just fucking give up at that point. Someone turn the lights off on the way out. We're done.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,223
    Will Labour build the Manc HS2?

    Huge question now for Starmer/Reeves.
  • Carnyx said:

    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    Troy MP embracing full on conspiracy theory.

    https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1708778412150534226
    "The penny is dropping among people in Westminster that the Government doesn't run the Government," says Conservative MP Danny Kruger..
    ..."There's a huge movement going on globally to create essentially a world government that will have power to dictate to national governments what they should do in anticipation of another pandemic," says Danny Kruger, who says there is "no greater threat to our national democracy"..

    All together now.

    RISHI SUNAK IS A CONSPIRACY THEORIST
    Yep. From the introduction to his new "Plan for Drivers":

    We will explore options to stop local councils using so-called “15-minute cities”, such as in Oxford, to police people’s lives.


    That's straight out of the "WEF/Soros are controlling our lives" conspiracy playbook. There is no plan in Oxford to "police people's lives" other than, I guess, the ever-inept efforts of Thames Valley Police.

    Oxfordshire County Council has a transport policy to reduce congestion by preventing through traffic on some roads. Oxford City Council has a planning policy to ensure facilities are within a 20-minute walk of where people live. In Rishiworld this equates to "policing people's lives".

    Rishi Sunak is what you get if you cross the Cones Hotline with a belief in the Illuminati.
    Allowing local businesses to open local shops = "Policing People's Lives"

    WTAF? Seriously, any of the remaining PB Tories want to defend this?
    Means competition for existing businesses, less profit for supermarkets by centring in big malls, and so on (because of the reduction in car use).

    Not my justification - but it might explain one reason for the anti-15min policy.
    Remember when the Tories used to be the party of business? Especially the small business? Small business owners feted?

    I listen to their mouth-foaming against 15-minute cities and what that means and all I can hear is the music from A Clockwork Orange, with Rishi Sunak wandering along a brutalist town centre herding shoppers to the megamall with a baseball bat and a comedy codpiece.

    Closing small business, stifling enterprise, forcing people into a planned urban environment. And they claim to be conservatives acting to protect us against socialism.

    Happily, says HY, none of these businesses vote Tory or Plaid Cymru anyway and can thus be ignored.
  • eek said:

    From the get go HS2 seems to have been a muddle when it comes to explaining its purpose, its benefits and also integrating it into a wider upgrade of infrastructure.

    HS2 as a project fell apart in the first 5 minutes on Radio 4 today when whoever was announcing it talked about Speed and not the capacity issues.

    It's Faster trains alongside more capacity. Imagine not having 10,000 lorries on the M6 because the long haul freight journey is on the WCML instead.
    If that's the reason its an utterly pathetic, absurd reason.

    The country is a small one, the whole country is the last few miles on a continental basis. We don't do long haul freight in this country - and this new line won't even connect to the continental network anyway to bring freight from the continent to the North.

    If you want capacity for lorry loads and more imagine a new, alternative M6 instead that could carry not tens of thousands of lorries but potentially hundreds of thousands of vehicles a day as well as connecting new towns that aren't connected to the M6.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,285
    Oooooff: Former USAF Thunderbird commander Richard McSpadden, famed for Air Safety Institute videos analyzing "what went wrong" in crashes, died this weekend (with Russ Francis, former NE Patriots star and longtime pilot) in small-plane crash in VT.
    https://twitter.com/JamesFallows/status/1708868048600395805
  • eekeek Posts: 27,963
    Worth being clear about HS2 - and this tweet does it better than even the stuff posted on here..

    https://twitter.com/APHClarkson/status/1708816583387238460

    Basically, Sunak's message to the British people is that the British state is incapable of building and managing a form of infrastructure that can be found or is being built in most other European states
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,216

    ...

    TimS said:

    There's a sad lack of noise from Labour about guaranteeing that the Manchester leg of HS2 will be built, along with NPR, in full. Only a week or so ago I got the impression they were confirming this. If Labour were clear then it would be contractors could continue to plan for that leg, and simply shift the workplan a bit. If they don't then it'll end and those spades will have to be picked up again fresh, no doubt with further cost overruns.

    Or have I missed something from Labour? It feels like Reeves is in the same asset sweating, don't build and they won't come mould as Hunt and Sunak.

    There'll be a "sad lack of noise from Labour" right up to the election....

    Their manifesto will be an empty fudge wrapper.
    True, but less offensive than the current Conservative offering of a carefully packaged turd in a fudge wrapper.
    Not looking like a high turnout election....
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,048
    ...
    eek said:

    Worth being clear about HS2 - and this tweet does it better than even the stuff posted on here..

    https://twitter.com/APHClarkson/status/1708816583387238460

    Basically, Sunak's message to the British people is that the British state is incapable of building and managing a form of infrastructure that can be found or is being built in most other European states

    During this week's festival of the absurd, do we think anything more absurd than the discouragement of 15 minute cities will make the cut?
  • Will Labour build the Manc HS2?

    Huge question now for Starmer/Reeves.

    Not really. At worst, they'd be opposing a party with the same policy. And Rishi is about to spend the HS2 budget on something else.
  • One thing I am sure we agree on is the conservative party conference is an utter shambles

    Either announce HS2 is cancelled or is going ahead

    An utter gift to labour
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,709
    @Victoria_Spratt

    At Bright Blue event about the proposed regulation of landlords. Housing minister @redditchrachel says that her children all rent their homes and vote conservative - not all private renters “smoke weed” or are “bad people in gangs” she says. Conservatives rent their homes too….
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,223
    Farage is up to something.

    Is he planning a return to Tory party in time to build a Nationalist Populist party out of the ash's of Sunak's looming defeat?
  • What the Conservatives need to ask themselves is why so many other countries in Europe and the wider world see high-speed rail thoughout their countries as being necessary. It's not a fad: or if it is, then it's a long-lasting one. France opened its first one forty years ago; Japan sixty years.

    Why do they think Britain is so different that we don't require such a network? What is our exceptionalism?

    Possibly because we're a small, compact country and people don't travel vast distances? 🤔

    In the continent people can travel across the continent from one country to another via high speed trains. Had HS2 connected to the continent then that would have been viable with HS2 too, get on board at Manchester and off in Amsterdam.

    But no, that's not happening anyway. Its just absurd either way.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,709
    @DavidHerdson

    From the coverage of this conference, it feels like the election that they're gearing up for is the next Tory leadership one than the general election.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,036

    What the Conservatives need to ask themselves is why so many other countries in Europe and the wider world see high-speed rail thoughout their countries as being necessary. It's not a fad: or if it is, then it's a long-lasting one. France opened its first one forty years ago; Japan sixty years.

    Why do they think Britain is so different that we don't require such a network? What is our exceptionalism?

    Possibly because we're a small, compact country and people don't travel vast distances? 🤔

    In the continent people can travel across the continent from one country to another via high speed trains. Had HS2 connected to the continent then that would have been viable with HS2 too, get on board at Manchester and off in Amsterdam.

    But no, that's not happening anyway. Its just absurd either way.
    Capacity is badly needed on the London/B'ham/Manchester route. Anyone who's had to stand up for the entire journey many times knows that.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,603

    What the Conservatives need to ask themselves is why so many other countries in Europe and the wider world see high-speed rail thoughout their countries as being necessary. It's not a fad: or if it is, then it's a long-lasting one. France opened its first one forty years ago; Japan sixty years.

    Why do they think Britain is so different that we don't require such a network? What is our exceptionalism?

    Possibly because we're a small, compact country and people don't travel vast distances? 🤔

    In the continent people can travel across the continent from one country to another via high speed trains. Had HS2 connected to the continent then that would have been viable with HS2 too, get on board at Manchester and off in Amsterdam.

    But no, that's not happening anyway. Its just absurd either way.
    "small compact country"

    Aberdeen and Penzance are part of the UK too, you know: and even Edinburgh to Bristol is a loooong trip by modern European rail standards.
  • Scott_xP said:

    @DavidHerdson

    From the coverage of this conference, it feels like the election that they're gearing up for is the next Tory leadership one than the general election.

    Hall empty, fringe packed?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,223

    One thing I am sure we agree on is the conservative party conference is an utter shambles

    Either announce HS2 is cancelled or is going ahead

    An utter gift to labour

    "I will not comment on speculation that I have created because I want to time the announcement of what I have been speculating about to be after a long period of further speculation, denials, and counter denials so that the decision, which has not been made, or maybe it has, we are not sure, looks as bad as possible."


  • Ian Dunt
    @IanDunt
    ·
    2h
    This really is the end for any notion of us functioning as a country. The government is basically saying that it is incapable of delivering a modern rail line. You might as well just fucking give up at that point. Someone turn the lights off on the way out. We're done.

    What will the policy be when we get some rain and frost over the winter and realise we can't even fix the potholes either?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,603
    THis thread has been closed by Dr Beeching. And by Mr Sunak as well.
  • Andy_JS said:

    What the Conservatives need to ask themselves is why so many other countries in Europe and the wider world see high-speed rail thoughout their countries as being necessary. It's not a fad: or if it is, then it's a long-lasting one. France opened its first one forty years ago; Japan sixty years.

    Why do they think Britain is so different that we don't require such a network? What is our exceptionalism?

    Possibly because we're a small, compact country and people don't travel vast distances? 🤔

    In the continent people can travel across the continent from one country to another via high speed trains. Had HS2 connected to the continent then that would have been viable with HS2 too, get on board at Manchester and off in Amsterdam.

    But no, that's not happening anyway. Its just absurd either way.
    Capacity is badly needed on the London/B'ham/Manchester route. Anyone who's had to stand up for the entire journey many times knows that.
    Then just say that.

    Not that we need high speed because Europe travels across the continent at high speed.
    Or to get vehicles off the road, when just building more roads would do that better.

    Just say we need capacity for capacities sake in its own right. Don't need extra reasons that don't hold up, because those extra reasons just trivialise it if they're clearly bullshit.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,036
    edited October 2023

    From the get go, selling the vision of HS2 to the public seems to have been a muddle when it comes to explaining its purpose, its benefits and also integrating it into a wider upgrade of infrastructure.

    What they should have done is sold it primarily as increasing capacity, but since it involved building a new line it might as well also have improved speed
  • Carnyx said:

    What the Conservatives need to ask themselves is why so many other countries in Europe and the wider world see high-speed rail thoughout their countries as being necessary. It's not a fad: or if it is, then it's a long-lasting one. France opened its first one forty years ago; Japan sixty years.

    Why do they think Britain is so different that we don't require such a network? What is our exceptionalism?

    Possibly because we're a small, compact country and people don't travel vast distances? 🤔

    In the continent people can travel across the continent from one country to another via high speed trains. Had HS2 connected to the continent then that would have been viable with HS2 too, get on board at Manchester and off in Amsterdam.

    But no, that's not happening anyway. Its just absurd either way.
    "small compact country"

    Aberdeen and Penzance are part of the UK too, you know: and even Edinburgh to Bristol is a loooong trip by modern European rail standards.
    And which of them are on the HS2 route?
  • Dame Sue Carr is first Lady Chief Justice, the top judge for England and Wales
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66983380

    Cambridge lawyer makes good.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,054
    edited October 2023

    ...

    TimS said:

    There's a sad lack of noise from Labour about guaranteeing that the Manchester leg of HS2 will be built, along with NPR, in full. Only a week or so ago I got the impression they were confirming this. If Labour were clear then it would be contractors could continue to plan for that leg, and simply shift the workplan a bit. If they don't then it'll end and those spades will have to be picked up again fresh, no doubt with further cost overruns.

    Or have I missed something from Labour? It feels like Reeves is in the same asset sweating, don't build and they won't come mould as Hunt and Sunak.

    There'll be a "sad lack of noise from Labour" right up to the election....

    Their manifesto will be an empty fudge wrapper.
    True, but less offensive than the current Conservative offering of a carefully packaged turd in a fudge wrapper.
    Not looking like a high turnout election....
    I think the Tories will still get walloped. Just watched Liz Truss- she truly is the gift that keeps on giving for the opposition parties.

    This conference is the unspeakable arguing for the unthinkable using methods that are impossible.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,285
    Rishi Sunak set to confirm scrapping of Manchester leg of HS2

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/02/hs2-rishi-sunak-scrapping-manchester-leg
    ...Andy Street, the Tory mayor of the West Midlands, said: “If you tell the international investment community you are going to do something, you bloody well have to stick to your word.”

    Speaking at a fringe event in Manchester, Street said he had not been informed of the government’s decision. But he added that having consistency for investors was “an absolutely fundamental point”, adding: “It’s what drives investment.”

    Henri Murison, the chief executive of the Northern Powerhouse Partnership, said: “It is madness to leave what was meant to be the UK’s flagship infrastructure project like this. Unless we can protect the hybrid bill, which is currently going through parliament and which authorises the tunnel between Manchester and Manchester airport, this means the end for Northern Powerhouse Rail and levelling up as a whole is finished.”

    Darren Caplan, the chief executive of the Railway Industry Association, said: “This constant salami-slicing of the scheme betrays HS2’s original purpose to improve the UK’s connectivity and economy, while enabling added capacity to the classic network and helping the government deliver on its net zero targets. A decision to cancel would also send a terrible message about the UK’s ability to deliver major infrastructure projects to international investors.”


    Downing Street said a final decision on HS2 had not yet been made but Sunak was expected to hold an emergency cabinet meeting on Tuesday in Manchester so ministers could rubber-stamp it...
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,305

    I would offer the following definition of 'woke' - someone who rejects legal and cultural norms in the pursuit of rapid social justice.

  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,027
    This conference seems worse than the last effort by Truss. How the hell have they got themselves into a comms mess around HS2. Whilst in Manchester. Whilst talking about 15 minute cities. And 20mph speed limits.

    Ugh. Just put the party out of its misery.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,114

    What the Conservatives need to ask themselves is why so many other countries in Europe and the wider world see high-speed rail thoughout their countries as being necessary. It's not a fad: or if it is, then it's a long-lasting one. France opened its first one forty years ago; Japan sixty years.

    Why do they think Britain is so different that we don't require such a network? What is our exceptionalism?

    Possibly because we're a small, compact country and people don't travel vast distances? 🤔
    London to Edinburgh is about the same distance as Tokyo to Osaka, which works very well as a high speed train route...
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,653
    A rational decision on HS2 would disregard the money/resources spent so far. Bygones are bygones. If it is to be cancelled it implies that the prospective additional expenditure for Birmingham to Manchester is not worth the prospective additional benefits. So could they please spell out what the extra costs and benefits are so that we can understand this seemingly irrational decision?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,285
    Business chiefs who criticised Labour in 2015 turn on Sunak after green U-turn
    Exclusive: Bosses who signed letter eight years ago now highly critical of PM’s plans to roll back net zero policies
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/oct/02/business-chiefs-who-criticised-labour-in-2015-turn-on-rishi-sunak-green-u-turn-net-zero-policies
  • HS2 parliamentary process is important in this context.

    HS2 phase 1 and phase 2A have completed their parliamentary processes so the relevant powers to build the line from Euston to Crewe have been obtained through the relevant Acts.

    Phase 2B (Crewe-Manchester) is currently going through the select committee petitioning stage as it is hybrid bill.

    It is quite feasible for the government to stop the parliamentary stages of Phase 2B so that the Bill would automatically drop at the end of the current session in around 4 weeks time. If the Bill is not carried over, then a new Bill would need to be re-introduced and the parliamentary process started again.

    If Phase 2B is cancelled it is therefore more difficult proceedually for Labour to pick it up again, whereas restarting Euston and building up to Crewe is more straightforward (Euston is difficult design and enginering wise).
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,048

    ...

    TimS said:

    There's a sad lack of noise from Labour about guaranteeing that the Manchester leg of HS2 will be built, along with NPR, in full. Only a week or so ago I got the impression they were confirming this. If Labour were clear then it would be contractors could continue to plan for that leg, and simply shift the workplan a bit. If they don't then it'll end and those spades will have to be picked up again fresh, no doubt with further cost overruns.

    Or have I missed something from Labour? It feels like Reeves is in the same asset sweating, don't build and they won't come mould as Hunt and Sunak.

    There'll be a "sad lack of noise from Labour" right up to the election....

    Their manifesto will be an empty fudge wrapper.
    True, but less offensive than the current Conservative offering of a carefully packaged turd in a fudge wrapper.
    Not looking like a high turnout election....
    Probably not, which favours your bunch. I still have this recurring nightmare of 1992 redux.

    Starmer may (in the unlikely event he wins) be a disappointment, or he could surprise on the upside. Remember the bar is low.

    If the current iteration of the Conservative Party win as I suspect, we are in a one party state. They will assume that too. A cocktail of corrupt and clueless will taste extremely sour.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,285
    Is this why we haven't heard from TSE recently ?

    Why your new Apple iPhone 15 is overheating
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-66982762
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,603

    Carnyx said:

    What the Conservatives need to ask themselves is why so many other countries in Europe and the wider world see high-speed rail thoughout their countries as being necessary. It's not a fad: or if it is, then it's a long-lasting one. France opened its first one forty years ago; Japan sixty years.

    Why do they think Britain is so different that we don't require such a network? What is our exceptionalism?

    Possibly because we're a small, compact country and people don't travel vast distances? 🤔

    In the continent people can travel across the continent from one country to another via high speed trains. Had HS2 connected to the continent then that would have been viable with HS2 too, get on board at Manchester and off in Amsterdam.

    But no, that's not happening anyway. Its just absurd either way.
    "small compact country"

    Aberdeen and Penzance are part of the UK too, you know: and even Edinburgh to Bristol is a loooong trip by modern European rail standards.
    And which of them are on the HS2 route?
    Exactly, they'd be connected by HS - certainly Edinburgh to Bristol/Exeter - in any sane modern state.

    You're plain wrong about the UK being small and compact.
  • Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    What the Conservatives need to ask themselves is why so many other countries in Europe and the wider world see high-speed rail thoughout their countries as being necessary. It's not a fad: or if it is, then it's a long-lasting one. France opened its first one forty years ago; Japan sixty years.

    Why do they think Britain is so different that we don't require such a network? What is our exceptionalism?

    Possibly because we're a small, compact country and people don't travel vast distances? 🤔

    In the continent people can travel across the continent from one country to another via high speed trains. Had HS2 connected to the continent then that would have been viable with HS2 too, get on board at Manchester and off in Amsterdam.

    But no, that's not happening anyway. Its just absurd either way.
    "small compact country"

    Aberdeen and Penzance are part of the UK too, you know: and even Edinburgh to Bristol is a loooong trip by modern European rail standards.
    And which of them are on the HS2 route?
    Exactly, they'd be connected by HS - certainly Edinburgh to Bristol/Exeter - in any sane modern state.

    You're plain wrong about the UK being small and compact.
    I never said the UK is small and compact, I said this country is. England is the country I'm referring to, not Scotland or the UK.

    Had this network been a trans-UK one it would certainly be travelling much, much further distances. And I agree its absurd it can't be done.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,209
    MoanR said:

    Dear PB
    Please can you help me.
    I am not sure that I understand what woke and anti-woke mean.
    I think antisemitism, prejudice against women and racism etc are bad things. Does this mean that I am woke?
    If so, what does anti-woke mean?
    Does anti-woke mean that someone is racist or misogynist?
    I am not trying to cause an argument, I want to understand.
    I had an argument with a friend last week. He mentioned being anti-woke. I assumed that he was admitting to being a racist or something along those lines. I was quite rude to him. I more or less accused him of being a RWNJ (Right Wing Nut Job).
    I may have overreacted.
    What does anti-woke mean?

    The simplest definition of woke is the belief that any differential outcome between groups is necessarily the result of some kind of discrimination, even if the mechanism can't easily be articulated. This is often used to justify overt positive discrimination in the other direction.

    Someone might describe themselves as anti-woke if they disagree with this analysis or oppose positive discrimination on principle.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,329
    geoffw said:

    A rational decision on HS2 would disregard the money/resources spent so far. Bygones are bygones. If it is to be cancelled it implies that the prospective additional expenditure for Birmingham to Manchester is not worth the prospective additional benefits. So could they please spell out what the extra costs and benefits are so that we can understand this seemingly irrational decision?

    A rational decision (no idea what it should be) takes into account the Sunk Costs Fallacy, which is hard to accept.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,673
    I like this way of presenting polls. Much easier to read into long term trends than either the individual polling results or, arguably, the line graphs.

    https://x.com/benatipsos/status/1708864817782567396?s=20

    Incredible medium term stability, after averaging out short term volatility. The only notable change is a 1-2% swing from Lab to LD in April, which seems to have stuck. At a guess I would say that campaigning ahead of the May locals focused voters' minds on tactical options.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,512
    edited October 2023
    Abercrombie & Fitch ex-CEO accused of exploiting men for sex
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-66889779

    Published at 5pm. Panorama?

    ETA just notice the byline: By Rianna Croxford, investigations correspondent
    BBC News and BBC Panorama
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,209

    Dame Sue Carr is first Lady Chief Justice, the top judge for England and Wales
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66983380

    Cambridge lawyer makes good.

    The government will stop at nothing to promote Carrs.
  • algarkirk said:

    geoffw said:

    A rational decision on HS2 would disregard the money/resources spent so far. Bygones are bygones. If it is to be cancelled it implies that the prospective additional expenditure for Birmingham to Manchester is not worth the prospective additional benefits. So could they please spell out what the extra costs and benefits are so that we can understand this seemingly irrational decision?

    A rational decision (no idea what it should be) takes into account the Sunk Costs Fallacy, which is hard to accept.
    Surely the Sunak Costs Fallacy?
  • MoanRMoanR Posts: 23

    MoanR said:

    Dear PB
    Please can you help me.
    I am not sure that I understand what woke and anti-woke mean.
    I think antisemitism, prejudice against women and racism etc are bad things. Does this mean that I am woke?
    If so, what does anti-woke mean?
    Does anti-woke mean that someone is racist or misogynist?
    I am not trying to cause an argument, I want to understand.
    I had an argument with a friend last week. He mentioned being anti-woke. I assumed that he was admitting to being a racist or something along those lines. I was quite rude to him. I more or less accused him of being a RWNJ (Right Wing Nut Job).
    I may have overreacted.
    What does anti-woke mean?

    The simplest definition of woke is the belief that any differential outcome between groups is necessarily the result of some kind of discrimination, even if the mechanism can't easily be articulated. This is often used to justify overt positive discrimination in the other direction.

    Someone might describe themselves as anti-woke if they disagree with this analysis or oppose positive discrimination on principle.
    Williamglenn

    Thanks for your explanation.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,682
    Carnyx said:

    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    Troy MP embracing full on conspiracy theory.

    https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1708778412150534226
    "The penny is dropping among people in Westminster that the Government doesn't run the Government," says Conservative MP Danny Kruger..
    ..."There's a huge movement going on globally to create essentially a world government that will have power to dictate to national governments what they should do in anticipation of another pandemic," says Danny Kruger, who says there is "no greater threat to our national democracy"..

    All together now.

    RISHI SUNAK IS A CONSPIRACY THEORIST
    Yep. From the introduction to his new "Plan for Drivers":

    We will explore options to stop local councils using so-called “15-minute cities”, such as in Oxford, to police people’s lives.


    That's straight out of the "WEF/Soros are controlling our lives" conspiracy playbook. There is no plan in Oxford to "police people's lives" other than, I guess, the ever-inept efforts of Thames Valley Police.

    Oxfordshire County Council has a transport policy to reduce congestion by preventing through traffic on some roads. Oxford City Council has a planning policy to ensure facilities are within a 20-minute walk of where people live. In Rishiworld this equates to "policing people's lives".

    Rishi Sunak is what you get if you cross the Cones Hotline with a belief in the Illuminati.
    Allowing local businesses to open local shops = "Policing People's Lives"

    WTAF? Seriously, any of the remaining PB Tories want to defend this?
    Means competition for existing businesses, less profit for supermarkets by centring in big malls, and so on (because of the reduction in car use).

    Not my justification - but it might explain one reason for the anti-15min policy.
    You're overthinking it. Sunak is a conspiracy theorist. 15 minute cities is a conspiracy theory. That's it.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,653
    algarkirk said:

    geoffw said:

    A rational decision on HS2 would disregard the money/resources spent so far. Bygones are bygones. If it is to be cancelled it implies that the prospective additional expenditure for Birmingham to Manchester is not worth the prospective additional benefits. So could they please spell out what the extra costs and benefits are so that we can understand this seemingly irrational decision?

    A rational decision (no idea what it should be) takes into account the Sunk Costs Fallacy, which is hard to accept.
    Well yes, that's what I said. But it's helpful, I think, to articulate it explicitly.

  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,158
    The Tories have overseen this shambles and own it . They shouldn’t be allowed to get away with passing the can .

    Utterly pathetic that the UK can’t build one decent high speed link .
  • MoanRMoanR Posts: 23
    darkage said:


    I would offer the following definition of 'woke' - someone who rejects legal and cultural norms in the pursuit of rapid social justice.

    Darkage

    Thanks for this. Not sure I understand. Can you expand this. Perhaps give an example.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,706
    darkage said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Live tweeting of the Trump trial for those interested.
    https://twitter.com/KlasfeldReports/status/1708815227939160293

    The BBC feed described his facial expression on entering the premises as 'dismayed'. I'm hoping something has happened that we don't yet know about.
    Whatever happens his ideas and the popular support for them will prevail.
    While I'm not generally a fan of Trump-ian policies, if the electorate votes for them, then the electorate should get them.

    What I am terrified about is Trump's flagrant disregard for democratic and constitutional norms, and what that means for the US, and for US democracy.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,003
    Omnium said:

    eek said:

    Omnium said:

    eek said:

    Omnium said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @SamCoatesSky

    As per
    @Peston
    I’m also told the decision has been made to scrap the Manchester leg of HS2 with the money going on other transport projects

    So Crossrail 2.

    A key part of the levelling up agenda.
    It's a very sensible investment. It's clear though that such projects entail us (the taxpayers) getting ripped off in quite shocking ways. What's odd though is that the big construction companies are all going bust. Where is the money going?
    I think we have multiple issues

    1) companies get told the budget for public projects so gold plate everything because they want more of the money
    2) this Government disliked risk so expected all the costs to be covered upfront. Ask me to take a risk on a project and I'll add 50% to the bill to cover that risk
    3) for private work construction material costs have rendered even projects that were sensible planned as problematic because they budget for inflation at say 10% rather than 40%..
    Tens of billions of pounds are somehow vanishing, and every major civil engineering company is in trouble. It makes no sense.
    I think it's all gone on pointless paperwork. 2 year delay in a project - rechecks required. Reduce platforms at Euston £200m redesign costs...

    The best idea is to create a plan, get everyone to agree to it and then just leave to build it...
    Agreed entirely, but there are tens of billions missing still.
    Haven't we been over this a few times?

    Land is more expensive in England than in France, so it costs more to buy it.

    Political choice to increase the amount of tunneling to bypass Home Counties opposition.

    Excessively high engineering specification that, for example, put all the risk for minor land settling/slippage onto the contractor.

    Continual delays to project increase the costs due to inflation, project overheads, penalty clauses in contracts, etc.

    And meddling to modify the agreed design as previously discussed.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,706

    New Thread

    But you guys all knew that, right?
  • eekeek Posts: 27,963

    HS2 parliamentary process is important in this context.

    HS2 phase 1 and phase 2A have completed their parliamentary processes so the relevant powers to build the line from Euston to Crewe have been obtained through the relevant Acts.

    Phase 2B (Crewe-Manchester) is currently going through the select committee petitioning stage as it is hybrid bill.

    It is quite feasible for the government to stop the parliamentary stages of Phase 2B so that the Bill would automatically drop at the end of the current session in around 4 weeks time. If the Bill is not carried over, then a new Bill would need to be re-introduced and the parliamentary process started again.

    If Phase 2B is cancelled it is therefore more difficult proceedually for Labour to pick it up again, whereas restarting Euston and building up to Crewe is more straightforward (Euston is difficult design and enginering wise).

    You clearly haven't seen this Government and Bozo's policy of having Parliament do sod all for months and then pushing a bill through all it's stages in a week.,

    As such I easily see a Labour Government getting the phase 2b bill back into a select committee in a day or so....
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,047

    What the Conservatives need to ask themselves is why so many other countries in Europe and the wider world see high-speed rail thoughout their countries as being necessary. It's not a fad: or if it is, then it's a long-lasting one. France opened its first one forty years ago; Japan sixty years.

    Why do they think Britain is so different that we don't require such a network? What is our exceptionalism?

    We are a relatively small and centralised country
This discussion has been closed.