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Will some be more equal than others? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,161
edited October 2023 in General
imageWill some be more equal than others? – politicalbetting.com

October is Black History Month. Labour marked this by issuing a Tweet saying that it is: “the time to celebrate the achievements and contributions of Black communities and acknowledge the inequality they still face.” To this end, Labour’s message went on: “Labour will introduce a Race Equality Act to tackle structural racial inequalities.”

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    This is also a political issue - we can see the story below where these topics have been weaponised specifically in partisan ways:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/oct/01/former-race-lead-sues-ehrc-for-race-discrimination
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926
    Good question. Perhaps they think that they have to be seen doing something?
  • Bi-partisan gesture politics. Like government announcements on phones and potholes.
  • Still no word on tonight's Panorama special.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,792
    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,792
    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
  • Why no Asian History Month? :lol:
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    Why no Asian History Month? :lol:

    There is a South Asian Heritage Month, which includes history.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Does it necessarily imply a hierarchy? Though broadly, I agree. Folk may scoff at the word 'intersectionality', and yes it's clumsy but it is actually useful - people are not defined by single categories. In blunt terms, a white working class disabled women in Scunthorpe will likely have less social opportunity than Mrs Sunak's Baby Boy did.

    That said, it feels like an inquiry into structural inequality - perhaps focusing on race, but not exclusively - with subsequent recommendations to inform a potential act would be more sensible.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    edited October 2023
    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    You can't use the blue Koopa shell when you're in P1 in Mario Kart.

    I have a feeling some tory fuccboi will be wheeling out that MLK quote very soon.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    Dura_Ace said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    You can't use the blue Koopa shell when you're in P1 in Mario Kart.

    I have a feeling some tory fuccboi will be wheeling out that MLK quote very soon.
    As always, I would respond to that MLK quote with the other one about the white liberal...
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    Does this honestly weigh that heavily in the scales versus the Tories' catalogue of disaster and incompetence?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Ghedebrav said:

    Does it necessarily imply a hierarchy? Though broadly, I agree. Folk may scoff at the word 'intersectionality', and yes it's clumsy but it is actually useful - people are not defined by single categories. In blunt terms, a white working class disabled women in Scunthorpe will likely have less social opportunity than Mrs Sunak's Baby Boy did.

    That said, it feels like an inquiry into structural inequality - perhaps focusing on race, but not exclusively - with subsequent recommendations to inform a potential act would be more sensible.

    This is all a bit gesture politics, though. And Cyclefree is quite right to question the need for legislation.

    If Labour were serious about making an economic difference, they'd (for instance) be going large on their housing/planning policy rather than kicking it into the long grass.

    This was also rather more on point.
    https://twitter.com/lisanandy/status/1708559398715486303

  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    edited October 2023
    Ghedebrav said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    Does this honestly weigh that heavily in the scales versus the Tories' catalogue of disaster and incompetence?
    No, it really doesn't.
    But it smacks of presentation over substance.

    You can't easily legislate away structural inequalities - unless they are ones which are explicit in existing legislation.
  • Afternoon folks

    Thought I’d better update the good people of PB on how we fared doing the Yorkshire Three Peaks Challenge on Saturday, after people here were so generous with their donations.

    I did it, completed the circuit in 8.5hrs, which I’m pleased with but I really pushed myself - no stopping to eat, no breaks, just constant motion. In parts it was utterly brutal especially getting up Ingleborough, the last of the peaks. A few people dropped out after the second peak cos they were either done in or so far behind they’d have been climbing the last peak in the dark - not a good idea.

    I was the first to finish in our group - there were 28 of us that started in the end, 23 finished - and the last group of 5 got in after 13 hours in total, and they had to come down from Ingleborough in the dark. It was tricky enough in the daylight for me, so their persistence and determination was superb. One guy who did it had a prosthetic leg, after losing his leg in a crash last year. I cannot imagine how the hell he did that.

    A couple of people who were intending to do it had to pull out due to injuries so they plan to do it in May and I said I’d join them. I must be insane.

    We’re all stiff as a board and I’m still knackered - feels like a two day hangover today, that lingering lethargy I now have on a Monday if I’ve had a very boozy Saturday night.

    Thanks again PB for your donations, loads of people mentioned to me how generous people from this site have been. Just in case you missed the link and would like to donate to a charity that supports children with congenital heart problems at Leeds General Infirmary, here you go: https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/isaac-phoenix-davison?utm_source=whatsapp&utm_medium=fundraising&utm_content=isaac-phoenix-davison&utm_campaign=pfp-whatsapp&utm_term=a5d00617328744428695a5496d68e55f

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    According to the definitions used already in official reports for institutional racism, housing policy is definitely racist.

    That is, younger cohorts, who are more diverse get worse, more expensive housing.

    This has already resulted in this policy change




  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,998
    FPT, and on topic: The first woman to be a US senator was appointed:
    "Rebecca Ann Felton (née Latimer; June 10, 1835 – January 24, 1930) was an American writer, politician, activist, and slave owner who was the first woman to serve in the United States Senate, although she served for only one day.[2][3] A major figure in American first-wave feminism, Felton was also a white supremacist and the last slave owner to serve in Senate who spoke vigorously in favor of lynching African Americans, under the pretense of protecting the sexual purity of white women. Many of the African Americans she admonished were falsely accused of rape."

    And may not be everyone's favorite example of the benefits of "intersectionality".
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,890
    edited October 2023
    Deleted as meant to reply!
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    FPT, and on topic: The first woman to be a US senator was appointed:
    "Rebecca Ann Felton (née Latimer; June 10, 1835 – January 24, 1930) was an American writer, politician, activist, and slave owner who was the first woman to serve in the United States Senate, although she served for only one day.[2][3] A major figure in American first-wave feminism, Felton was also a white supremacist and the last slave owner to serve in Senate who spoke vigorously in favor of lynching African Americans, under the pretense of protecting the sexual purity of white women. Many of the African Americans she admonished were falsely accused of rape."

    And may not be everyone's favorite example of the benefits of "intersectionality".

    A white feminist put her interests as a white person ahead of her interests as woman. That indeed shows how intersectionality functions - Sojourner Truth addressed this in her "Ain't I A Woman" speech in 1851

    https://www.nps.gov/articles/sojourner-truth.htm
  • Afternoon folks

    Thought I’d better update the good people of PB on how we fared doing the Yorkshire Three Peaks Challenge on Saturday, after people here were so generous with their donations.

    I did it, completed the circuit in 8.5hrs, which I’m pleased with but I really pushed myself - no stopping to eat, no breaks, just constant motion. In parts it was utterly brutal especially getting up Ingleborough, the last of the peaks. A few people dropped out after the second peak cos they were either done in or so far behind they’d have been climbing the last peak in the dark - not a good idea.

    I was the first to finish in our group - there were 28 of us that started in the end, 23 finished - and the last group of 5 got in after 13 hours in total, and they had to come down from Ingleborough in the dark. It was tricky enough in the daylight for me, so their persistence and determination was superb. One guy who did it had a prosthetic leg, after losing his leg in a crash last year. I cannot imagine how the hell he did that.

    A couple of people who were intending to do it had to pull out due to injuries so they plan to do it in May and I said I’d join them. I must be insane.

    We’re all stiff as a board and I’m still knackered - feels like a two day hangover today, that lingering lethargy I now have on a Monday if I’ve had a very boozy Saturday night.

    Thanks again PB for your donations, loads of people mentioned to me how generous people from this site have been. Just in case you missed the link and would like to donate to a charity that supports children with congenital heart problems at Leeds General Infirmary, here you go: https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/isaac-phoenix-davison?utm_source=whatsapp&utm_medium=fundraising&utm_content=isaac-phoenix-davison&utm_campaign=pfp-whatsapp&utm_term=a5d00617328744428695a5496d68e55f

    Most of us ponied up before the challenge so you could just have stayed in bed. Bear it in mind for May.
  • 148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Let me guess that one. Black students are more likely to live at home. Living at home is worse than living with a critical mass of other students on campus, in terms of both results and drop-outs.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    edited October 2023
    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    I agree. At the aggregate group level people are similar therefore if there is great inequality of outcome (amongst groups) it means there is inequality of opportunity. These two things are not separate. They overlap and correlate.
  • Pesto says:-

    As I understand it, Treasury has signed off package of reallocating the many billions of pounds of proceeds from cancelling HS2 Manchester leg to what ministers describe as people’s transport “priorities” (!). But the PM has not yet given his approval (or not!).
    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1708770222050627671
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited October 2023

    Still no word on tonight's Panorama special.

    I would have thought if they had something really interesting they would have been promo-ing it by now, because as it stands nobody who doesn't normally watch that show will be tuning in, as outside of a bit of twitterati excitement it hasn't been mentioned. Compared to Russell Brand stuff, where drip drip drip, then the night before loads of stories to ensure everybody was well aware there was this "explosive" programme on.

    There are two reasons why not. It actually not very interesting story, perhaps even undecided from a few which they actually want to put on, or it involves some very powerful people and its got bogged down in court.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited October 2023

    Pesto says:-

    As I understand it, Treasury has signed off package of reallocating the many billions of pounds of proceeds from cancelling HS2 Manchester leg to what ministers describe as people’s transport “priorities” (!). But the PM has not yet given his approval (or not!).
    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1708770222050627671

    So given its Prof Peston, we can garner from this HS2 isn't been cancelled at all....its full steam ahead to Manchester.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    edited October 2023
    kinabalu said:

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    I agree. At the aggregate group level people are similar therefore if there is great inequality of outcome (amongst groups) it means there is inequality of opportunity.
    It is, though, important to look at the whole picture. For example, is it teaching that disadvantages? Or assessment?* Or a lack of "people that look like you"** in positions of success/power? Or different living arrangements across ethnic groups as suggested by DJL***?

    It's important because the solutions are different and getting the right mix of solutions helps all those to whom the disadvantages apply, not just those with an easily measured characteristic where that group is better. For example, if it is about living off campus, that might also apply to disadvantaged white students (if it's a cost thing?) and so doing things to address that, either by making it easier to live on campus or looking at additional help in other ways for off-campus dwellers is more effective than targetting black students.

    *e.g. increase in coursework assessment fingered for being behind the differentials between female and male attainment at school, although I don't know if that ever stood up to scrutiny
    **this is a real thing - and not just by ethnic group, also by gender, economic background, education (state/private) etc
    ***I'd never heard this mentioned before, nor had it occurred to me, but intriguing if true
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759

    Pesto says:-

    As I understand it, Treasury has signed off package of reallocating the many billions of pounds of proceeds from cancelling HS2 Manchester leg to what ministers describe as people’s transport “priorities” (!). But the PM has not yet given his approval (or not!).
    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1708770222050627671

    So given its Prof Peston, we can garner from this HS2 isn't been cancelled at all....its full steam ahead to Manchester.
    Peston, Pestoff - the kung fu of idiocy.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727

    Still no word on tonight's Panorama special.

    Fair enough, your choice. But I was thinking maybe you'd want to put your side of the story to us before the apparently damning revelations :wink:
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,968
    edited October 2023
    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Your example shows the polar opposite of the claim you made initially which was that "If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others."

    If people were capable of achieving 3 A*s then they were not previously hindered due to their race. Unless for some reason you think they did not earn the A* and were somehow gifted it unearned, which seems to me to be highly implausible and quite offensive.

    If people are then being discriminated against, having not been previously, which then holds them back so that despite being triple A* at school they can't do well at university we should look at why that is and address it.

    That doesn't mean prioritisation, it means fixing any discrimination so they're being treated on a level playing field.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    White people in the UK now have lower life expectancy than all other ethnic groups. Are you going to prioritise the health of white people to make up for this?

    No, thought not

    “White people have the LOWEST life expectancy of any ethnic group in England and Wales, finds first official report of its kind”

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9826487/White-people-worst-life-expectancy-ethnic-group.html
  • Meanwhile, in "canvasers do like to be beside the seaside" news,

    Rishi Sunak faces another nightmare by-election in a Red Wall seat as an MP is set to be ousted over a lobbying scandal.

    The Standards Committee is poised to suspend Scott Benton for more than 10 days, which will trigger a process that will give his constituents the chance to remove him.


    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tories-face-another-nightmare-election-31082177
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Let me guess that one. Black students are more likely to live at home. Living at home is worse than living with a critical mass of other students on campus, in terms of both results and drop-outs.
    At my institution the most significant factor, controlling for other factors like living at home, household income, gender etc. is race. The next significant is household income. Then disabilities. As to why, there can be lots of reasons.

    I remember once reading a study that discussed disciplining of young black Caribbean boys in primary schools and the discrepancies. Teachers would self report that those young students were more disruptive in class. How was this manifesting? Typically black Caribbean boys would ask to sharpen their pencils more, and would spend more time setting up for tasks by arranging their utensils - rulers, calculators etc. This study then went into the homes of these black Caribbean boys and saw that this was how they were shown to do tasks at home - that the adults would, before doing a task like cooking, set out all the utensils they would need and prepare all their tools. So they had been taught something that was a cultural difference at home, but it was perceived in the school as disruptive when repeated there. This would then start young black Caribbean boys off with negative associations with institutional education which would cascade as they got older - with early issues having bigger effects later on.

    I've also seen studies that look at unconscious biases in personal tutors; where personal tutors were more likely to respond quickly to students who had male and white sounding names versus students who had female and non white sounding names. This kind of behaviour could also have a cascading effect - and it is something that is hard to notice as it is simply just someone probably skimming an email and unconsciously deeming things less urgent when they come from students of colour.

    These kinds of things - cultural differences in learning alongside unconscious biases - exist and we have to tackle them, both from a moral stand point and in existing regulation of the sector.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,890
    edited October 2023

    Pesto says:-

    As I understand it, Treasury has signed off package of reallocating the many billions of pounds of proceeds from cancelling HS2 Manchester leg to what ministers describe as people’s transport “priorities” (!). But the PM has not yet given his approval (or not!).
    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1708770222050627671

    So given its Prof Peston, we can garner from this HS2 isn't been cancelled at all....its full steam ahead to Manchester.
    Tbf I think that is Peston's intended subtext. That so far Rishi has just thrown all the options into the air.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Your example shows the polar opposite of the claim you made initially which was that "If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others."

    If people were capable of achieving 3 A*s then they were not previously hindered due to their race. Unless for some reason you think they did not earn the A* and were somehow gifted it unearned, which seems to me to be highly implausible and quite offensive.

    If people are then being discriminated against, having not been previously, which then holds them back so that despite being triple A* at school they can't do well at university we should look at why that is and address it.

    That doesn't mean prioritisation, it means fixing any discrimination so they're being treated on a level playing field.
    I was pointing to how the hinderance comes in at the point in higher education. We can look at access figures if you want to see if there is hinderances to non white students accessing higher education (which there is) or non white students getting higher grades on average (that data is interesting because London has gone leaps and bounds in providing good secondary school outcomes for non white students, whereas the rest of the country has not).
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited October 2023
    One of the biggest levellers when it comes to universities, post A-Level results applications.

    Judge people on their actual grades plus some small adjustment things like performance against their peers at same school.
  • 148grss said:

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Your example shows the polar opposite of the claim you made initially which was that "If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others."

    If people were capable of achieving 3 A*s then they were not previously hindered due to their race. Unless for some reason you think they did not earn the A* and were somehow gifted it unearned, which seems to me to be highly implausible and quite offensive.

    If people are then being discriminated against, having not been previously, which then holds them back so that despite being triple A* at school they can't do well at university we should look at why that is and address it.

    That doesn't mean prioritisation, it means fixing any discrimination so they're being treated on a level playing field.
    I was pointing to how the hinderance comes in at the point in higher education. We can look at access figures if you want to see if there is hinderances to non white students accessing higher education (which there is) or non white students getting higher grades on average (that data is interesting because London has gone leaps and bounds in providing good secondary school outcomes for non white students, whereas the rest of the country has not).
    The point of equality is to tackle and abolish hinderance at any point it comes in.

    If it comes in at HE levels, then look into why and fix it.

    Don't just slap a bandage on and fix bigotry by more bigotry.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Let me guess that one. Black students are more likely to live at home. Living at home is worse than living with a critical mass of other students on campus, in terms of both results and drop-outs.
    At my institution the most significant factor, controlling for other factors like living at home, household income, gender etc. is race. The next significant is household income. Then disabilities. As to why, there can be lots of reasons.

    I remember once reading a study that discussed disciplining of young black Caribbean boys in primary schools and the discrepancies. Teachers would self report that those young students were more disruptive in class. How was this manifesting? Typically black Caribbean boys would ask to sharpen their pencils more, and would spend more time setting up for tasks by arranging their utensils - rulers, calculators etc. This study then went into the homes of these black Caribbean boys and saw that this was how they were shown to do tasks at home - that the adults would, before doing a task like cooking, set out all the utensils they would need and prepare all their tools. So they had been taught something that was a cultural difference at home, but it was perceived in the school as disruptive when repeated there. This would then start young black Caribbean boys off with negative associations with institutional education which would cascade as they got older - with early issues having bigger effects later on.

    I've also seen studies that look at unconscious biases in personal tutors; where personal tutors were more likely to respond quickly to students who had male and white sounding names versus students who had female and non white sounding names. This kind of behaviour could also have a cascading effect - and it is something that is hard to notice as it is simply just someone probably skimming an email and unconsciously deeming things less urgent when they come from students of colour.

    These kinds of things - cultural differences in learning alongside unconscious biases - exist and we have to tackle them, both from a moral stand point and in existing regulation of the sector.
    Again, one of the worst performing cohorts at school are white boys, especially white working class boys

    Are you going to be prioritising the education of white boys over other ethnic groups? No, thought not. Funny, that


    “OUT CLASSED UK White lads are the WORST at school and get the LOWEST GCSE results according to new report”

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2153574/white-lads-are-the-worst-at-school-and-get-the-lowest-gcse-results-according-to-new-report/
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Let me guess that one. Black students are more likely to live at home. Living at home is worse than living with a critical mass of other students on campus, in terms of both results and drop-outs.
    At my institution the most significant factor, controlling for other factors like living at home, household income, gender etc. is race. The next significant is household income. Then disabilities. As to why, there can be lots of reasons.

    I remember once reading a study that discussed disciplining of young black Caribbean boys in primary schools and the discrepancies. Teachers would self report that those young students were more disruptive in class. How was this manifesting? Typically black Caribbean boys would ask to sharpen their pencils more, and would spend more time setting up for tasks by arranging their utensils - rulers, calculators etc. This study then went into the homes of these black Caribbean boys and saw that this was how they were shown to do tasks at home - that the adults would, before doing a task like cooking, set out all the utensils they would need and prepare all their tools. So they had been taught something that was a cultural difference at home, but it was perceived in the school as disruptive when repeated there. This would then start young black Caribbean boys off with negative associations with institutional education which would cascade as they got older - with early issues having bigger effects later on.

    I've also seen studies that look at unconscious biases in personal tutors; where personal tutors were more likely to respond quickly to students who had male and white sounding names versus students who had female and non white sounding names. This kind of behaviour could also have a cascading effect - and it is something that is hard to notice as it is simply just someone probably skimming an email and unconsciously deeming things less urgent when they come from students of colour.

    These kinds of things - cultural differences in learning alongside unconscious biases - exist and we have to tackle them, both from a moral stand point and in existing regulation of the sector.
    It's almost like we need, you know, some kind of unconscious bias training or something to address issues like these :wink:

    (We do, much as it is derided by some - we all have them and to address them we need ot be alert to them. Take me, for example - I had a masters student who I concluded from first meeting was a lazy fekker; he proceeded to turn in a very respectable dissertation, well above average. So he was either lazy and very gifted or I misjudged him, perhaps due to cultural issues around how he expressed his ambition or lack of it - he was not from UK. Had it been a job interview, I'd have dismissed him pretty quickly.)
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    @SamCoatesSky

    As per
    @Peston
    I’m also told the decision has been made to scrap the Manchester leg of HS2 with the money going on other transport projects
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    White people in the UK now have lower life expectancy than all other ethnic groups. Are you going to prioritise the health of white people to make up for this?

    No, thought not

    “White people have the LOWEST life expectancy of any ethnic group in England and Wales, finds first official report of its kind”

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9826487/White-people-worst-life-expectancy-ethnic-group.html
    If the data shows that, then yes. One target group for educational outcomes, for instance, is working class white boys - their participation in higher education has been decreasing and therefore the sector has targets to improve that. (Although some of the arguments about why working class boys don't participate in higher education is partly because they feel their earning potential in work is not hindered by a lack of a degree, which is somewhat backed up by data. This is partly due to the high demand for manual labour skills, as well as the labour market generally being easier for white men. [Note the use of generally, I am not saying this is always the case, I am talking about probabilities and group statistics])
  • 148grss said:

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Let me guess that one. Black students are more likely to live at home. Living at home is worse than living with a critical mass of other students on campus, in terms of both results and drop-outs.
    At my institution the most significant factor, controlling for other factors like living at home, household income, gender etc. is race. The next significant is household income. Then disabilities. As to why, there can be lots of reasons.

    I remember once reading a study that discussed disciplining of young black Caribbean boys in primary schools and the discrepancies. Teachers would self report that those young students were more disruptive in class. How was this manifesting? Typically black Caribbean boys would ask to sharpen their pencils more, and would spend more time setting up for tasks by arranging their utensils - rulers, calculators etc. This study then went into the homes of these black Caribbean boys and saw that this was how they were shown to do tasks at home - that the adults would, before doing a task like cooking, set out all the utensils they would need and prepare all their tools. So they had been taught something that was a cultural difference at home, but it was perceived in the school as disruptive when repeated there. This would then start young black Caribbean boys off with negative associations with institutional education which would cascade as they got older - with early issues having bigger effects later on.

    I've also seen studies that look at unconscious biases in personal tutors; where personal tutors were more likely to respond quickly to students who had male and white sounding names versus students who had female and non white sounding names. This kind of behaviour could also have a cascading effect - and it is something that is hard to notice as it is simply just someone probably skimming an email and unconsciously deeming things less urgent when they come from students of colour.

    These kinds of things - cultural differences in learning alongside unconscious biases - exist and we have to tackle them, both from a moral stand point and in existing regulation of the sector.
    Ah but you will not find causes that you control for. If you control for race instead, maybe living at home would be a factor. (One overlooked, off-the-wall factor in schools is sometimes the kids are too big, or the wrong shape, for the furniture.)
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Let me guess that one. Black students are more likely to live at home. Living at home is worse than living with a critical mass of other students on campus, in terms of both results and drop-outs.
    At my institution the most significant factor, controlling for other factors like living at home, household income, gender etc. is race. The next significant is household income. Then disabilities. As to why, there can be lots of reasons.

    I remember once reading a study that discussed disciplining of young black Caribbean boys in primary schools and the discrepancies. Teachers would self report that those young students were more disruptive in class. How was this manifesting? Typically black Caribbean boys would ask to sharpen their pencils more, and would spend more time setting up for tasks by arranging their utensils - rulers, calculators etc. This study then went into the homes of these black Caribbean boys and saw that this was how they were shown to do tasks at home - that the adults would, before doing a task like cooking, set out all the utensils they would need and prepare all their tools. So they had been taught something that was a cultural difference at home, but it was perceived in the school as disruptive when repeated there. This would then start young black Caribbean boys off with negative associations with institutional education which would cascade as they got older - with early issues having bigger effects later on.

    I've also seen studies that look at unconscious biases in personal tutors; where personal tutors were more likely to respond quickly to students who had male and white sounding names versus students who had female and non white sounding names. This kind of behaviour could also have a cascading effect - and it is something that is hard to notice as it is simply just someone probably skimming an email and unconsciously deeming things less urgent when they come from students of colour.

    These kinds of things - cultural differences in learning alongside unconscious biases - exist and we have to tackle them, both from a moral stand point and in existing regulation of the sector.
    Again, one of the worst performing cohorts at school are white boys, especially white working class boys

    Are you going to be prioritising the education of white boys over other ethnic groups? No, thought not. Funny, that


    “OUT CLASSED UK White lads are the WORST at school and get the LOWEST GCSE results according to new report”

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2153574/white-lads-are-the-worst-at-school-and-get-the-lowest-gcse-results-according-to-new-report/
    Why not give extra help to white working class boys? I've no problem with that.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Let me guess that one. Black students are more likely to live at home. Living at home is worse than living with a critical mass of other students on campus, in terms of both results and drop-outs.
    At my institution the most significant factor, controlling for other factors like living at home, household income, gender etc. is race. The next significant is household income. Then disabilities. As to why, there can be lots of reasons.

    I remember once reading a study that discussed disciplining of young black Caribbean boys in primary schools and the discrepancies. Teachers would self report that those young students were more disruptive in class. How was this manifesting? Typically black Caribbean boys would ask to sharpen their pencils more, and would spend more time setting up for tasks by arranging their utensils - rulers, calculators etc. This study then went into the homes of these black Caribbean boys and saw that this was how they were shown to do tasks at home - that the adults would, before doing a task like cooking, set out all the utensils they would need and prepare all their tools. So they had been taught something that was a cultural difference at home, but it was perceived in the school as disruptive when repeated there. This would then start young black Caribbean boys off with negative associations with institutional education which would cascade as they got older - with early issues having bigger effects later on.

    I've also seen studies that look at unconscious biases in personal tutors; where personal tutors were more likely to respond quickly to students who had male and white sounding names versus students who had female and non white sounding names. This kind of behaviour could also have a cascading effect - and it is something that is hard to notice as it is simply just someone probably skimming an email and unconsciously deeming things less urgent when they come from students of colour.

    These kinds of things - cultural differences in learning alongside unconscious biases - exist and we have to tackle them, both from a moral stand point and in existing regulation of the sector.
    Again, one of the worst performing cohorts at school are white boys, especially white working class boys

    Are you going to be prioritising the education of white boys over other ethnic groups? No, thought not. Funny, that


    “OUT CLASSED UK White lads are the WORST at school and get the LOWEST GCSE results according to new report”

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2153574/white-lads-are-the-worst-at-school-and-get-the-lowest-gcse-results-according-to-new-report/
    I literally was writing about working class white boys as one of our prioritised groups whilst you were writing this
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Troy MP embracing full on conspiracy theory.

    https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1708778412150534226
    "The penny is dropping among people in Westminster that the Government doesn't run the Government," says Conservative MP Danny Kruger..
    ..."There's a huge movement going on globally to create essentially a world government that will have power to dictate to national governments what they should do in anticipation of another pandemic," says Danny Kruger, who says there is "no greater threat to our national democracy"..
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,058

    Meanwhile, in "canvasers do like to be beside the seaside" news,

    Rishi Sunak faces another nightmare by-election in a Red Wall seat as an MP is set to be ousted over a lobbying scandal.

    The Standards Committee is poised to suspend Scott Benton for more than 10 days, which will trigger a process that will give his constituents the chance to remove him.


    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tories-face-another-nightmare-election-31082177

    3,690 Majority over Labour at last election.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    148grss said:

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    White people in the UK now have lower life expectancy than all other ethnic groups. Are you going to prioritise the health of white people to make up for this?

    No, thought not

    “White people have the LOWEST life expectancy of any ethnic group in England and Wales, finds first official report of its kind”

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9826487/White-people-worst-life-expectancy-ethnic-group.html
    If the data shows that, then yes. One target group for educational outcomes, for instance, is working class white boys - their participation in higher education has been decreasing and therefore the sector has targets to improve that. (Although some of the arguments about why working class boys don't participate in higher education is partly because they feel their earning potential in work is not hindered by a lack of a degree, which is somewhat backed up by data. This is partly due to the high demand for manual labour skills, as well as the labour market generally being easier for white men. [Note the use of generally, I am not saying this is always the case, I am talking about probabilities and group statistics])
    Where is the Kier Royale Starmer statement proposing affirmative action for whites? To make up for their shorter lives, worse health, and inferior education achievements? It’s not ever gonna happen. And we all know why

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,706
    Scott_xP said:

    @SamCoatesSky

    As per
    @Peston
    I’m also told the decision has been made to scrap the Manchester leg of HS2 with the money going on other transport projects

    you dont say.

    absolutely bloody ridiculous.
  • One of the biggest levellers when it comes to universities, post A-Level results applications.

    Judge people on their actual grades plus some small adjustment things like performance against their peers at same school.

    Ditch university interviews (and personal statements) and run the whole thing off a computer once A-level results are out and the kids have done that group jumping in the air thing. Three months of work leading to biased outcomes replaced by half an hour on Leon's AI machine.
  • Leon said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Let me guess that one. Black students are more likely to live at home. Living at home is worse than living with a critical mass of other students on campus, in terms of both results and drop-outs.
    At my institution the most significant factor, controlling for other factors like living at home, household income, gender etc. is race. The next significant is household income. Then disabilities. As to why, there can be lots of reasons.

    I remember once reading a study that discussed disciplining of young black Caribbean boys in primary schools and the discrepancies. Teachers would self report that those young students were more disruptive in class. How was this manifesting? Typically black Caribbean boys would ask to sharpen their pencils more, and would spend more time setting up for tasks by arranging their utensils - rulers, calculators etc. This study then went into the homes of these black Caribbean boys and saw that this was how they were shown to do tasks at home - that the adults would, before doing a task like cooking, set out all the utensils they would need and prepare all their tools. So they had been taught something that was a cultural difference at home, but it was perceived in the school as disruptive when repeated there. This would then start young black Caribbean boys off with negative associations with institutional education which would cascade as they got older - with early issues having bigger effects later on.

    I've also seen studies that look at unconscious biases in personal tutors; where personal tutors were more likely to respond quickly to students who had male and white sounding names versus students who had female and non white sounding names. This kind of behaviour could also have a cascading effect - and it is something that is hard to notice as it is simply just someone probably skimming an email and unconsciously deeming things less urgent when they come from students of colour.

    These kinds of things - cultural differences in learning alongside unconscious biases - exist and we have to tackle them, both from a moral stand point and in existing regulation of the sector.
    Again, one of the worst performing cohorts at school are white boys, especially white working class boys

    Are you going to be prioritising the education of white boys over other ethnic groups? No, thought not. Funny, that


    “OUT CLASSED UK White lads are the WORST at school and get the LOWEST GCSE results according to new report”

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2153574/white-lads-are-the-worst-at-school-and-get-the-lowest-gcse-results-according-to-new-report/
    But you've been told a few times now, by a few people, that schools do target white boys as a priority though.

    And yet you keep bringing this up as a gotcha.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Let me guess that one. Black students are more likely to live at home. Living at home is worse than living with a critical mass of other students on campus, in terms of both results and drop-outs.
    At my institution the most significant factor, controlling for other factors like living at home, household income, gender etc. is race. The next significant is household income. Then disabilities. As to why, there can be lots of reasons.

    I remember once reading a study that discussed disciplining of young black Caribbean boys in primary schools and the discrepancies. Teachers would self report that those young students were more disruptive in class. How was this manifesting? Typically black Caribbean boys would ask to sharpen their pencils more, and would spend more time setting up for tasks by arranging their utensils - rulers, calculators etc. This study then went into the homes of these black Caribbean boys and saw that this was how they were shown to do tasks at home - that the adults would, before doing a task like cooking, set out all the utensils they would need and prepare all their tools. So they had been taught something that was a cultural difference at home, but it was perceived in the school as disruptive when repeated there. This would then start young black Caribbean boys off with negative associations with institutional education which would cascade as they got older - with early issues having bigger effects later on.

    I've also seen studies that look at unconscious biases in personal tutors; where personal tutors were more likely to respond quickly to students who had male and white sounding names versus students who had female and non white sounding names. This kind of behaviour could also have a cascading effect - and it is something that is hard to notice as it is simply just someone probably skimming an email and unconsciously deeming things less urgent when they come from students of colour.

    These kinds of things - cultural differences in learning alongside unconscious biases - exist and we have to tackle them, both from a moral stand point and in existing regulation of the sector.
    Ah but you will not find causes that you control for. If you control for race instead, maybe living at home would be a factor. (One overlooked, off-the-wall factor in schools is sometimes the kids are too big, or the wrong shape, for the furniture.)
    We do control for on campus or off campus living in our data, it is not a significant factor at our institution
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Your example shows the polar opposite of the claim you made initially which was that "If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others."

    If people were capable of achieving 3 A*s then they were not previously hindered due to their race. Unless for some reason you think they did not earn the A* and were somehow gifted it unearned, which seems to me to be highly implausible and quite offensive.

    If people are then being discriminated against, having not been previously, which then holds them back so that despite being triple A* at school they can't do well at university we should look at why that is and address it.

    That doesn't mean prioritisation, it means fixing any discrimination so they're being treated on a level playing field.
    I was pointing to how the hinderance comes in at the point in higher education. We can look at access figures if you want to see if there is hinderances to non white students accessing higher education (which there is) or non white students getting higher grades on average (that data is interesting because London has gone leaps and bounds in providing good secondary school outcomes for non white students, whereas the rest of the country has not).
    The point of equality is to tackle and abolish hinderance at any point it comes in.

    If it comes in at HE levels, then look into why and fix it.

    Don't just slap a bandage on and fix bigotry by more bigotry.
    I was using HE as a sector as an example because that is the sector I work in. Obviously it is also at work in other sectors.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,411
    edited October 2023
    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Let me guess that one. Black students are more likely to live at home. Living at home is worse than living with a critical mass of other students on campus, in terms of both results and drop-outs.
    At my institution the most significant factor, controlling for other factors like living at home, household income, gender etc. is race. The next significant is household income. Then disabilities. As to why, there can be lots of reasons.

    I remember once reading a study that discussed disciplining of young black Caribbean boys in primary schools and the discrepancies. Teachers would self report that those young students were more disruptive in class. How was this manifesting? Typically black Caribbean boys would ask to sharpen their pencils more, and would spend more time setting up for tasks by arranging their utensils - rulers, calculators etc. This study then went into the homes of these black Caribbean boys and saw that this was how they were shown to do tasks at home - that the adults would, before doing a task like cooking, set out all the utensils they would need and prepare all their tools. So they had been taught something that was a cultural difference at home, but it was perceived in the school as disruptive when repeated there. This would then start young black Caribbean boys off with negative associations with institutional education which would cascade as they got older - with early issues having bigger effects later on.

    I've also seen studies that look at unconscious biases in personal tutors; where personal tutors were more likely to respond quickly to students who had male and white sounding names versus students who had female and non white sounding names. This kind of behaviour could also have a cascading effect - and it is something that is hard to notice as it is simply just someone probably skimming an email and unconsciously deeming things less urgent when they come from students of colour.

    These kinds of things - cultural differences in learning alongside unconscious biases - exist and we have to tackle them, both from a moral stand point and in existing regulation of the sector.
    Again, one of the worst performing cohorts at school are white boys, especially white working class boys

    Are you going to be prioritising the education of white boys over other ethnic groups? No, thought not. Funny, that


    “OUT CLASSED UK White lads are the WORST at school and get the LOWEST GCSE results according to new report”

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2153574/white-lads-are-the-worst-at-school-and-get-the-lowest-gcse-results-according-to-new-report/
    That's probably because ethnic minority groups are more likely to be migrants, and migrants are more likely to be healthier and more ambitious than stay-at-homes. Edit: This is accentuated by our immigration system which, like that of most countries, gives priority to those with more potential.
  • 148grss said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Your example shows the polar opposite of the claim you made initially which was that "If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others."

    If people were capable of achieving 3 A*s then they were not previously hindered due to their race. Unless for some reason you think they did not earn the A* and were somehow gifted it unearned, which seems to me to be highly implausible and quite offensive.

    If people are then being discriminated against, having not been previously, which then holds them back so that despite being triple A* at school they can't do well at university we should look at why that is and address it.

    That doesn't mean prioritisation, it means fixing any discrimination so they're being treated on a level playing field.
    I was pointing to how the hinderance comes in at the point in higher education. We can look at access figures if you want to see if there is hinderances to non white students accessing higher education (which there is) or non white students getting higher grades on average (that data is interesting because London has gone leaps and bounds in providing good secondary school outcomes for non white students, whereas the rest of the country has not).
    The point of equality is to tackle and abolish hinderance at any point it comes in.

    If it comes in at HE levels, then look into why and fix it.

    Don't just slap a bandage on and fix bigotry by more bigotry.
    I was using HE as a sector as an example because that is the sector I work in. Obviously it is also at work in other sectors.
    And where it is at work it should be tackled and eliminated.

    We shouldn't instead tolerate it and do positive affirmation instead.
  • 148grss said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Let me guess that one. Black students are more likely to live at home. Living at home is worse than living with a critical mass of other students on campus, in terms of both results and drop-outs.
    At my institution the most significant factor, controlling for other factors like living at home, household income, gender etc. is race. The next significant is household income. Then disabilities. As to why, there can be lots of reasons.

    I remember once reading a study that discussed disciplining of young black Caribbean boys in primary schools and the discrepancies. Teachers would self report that those young students were more disruptive in class. How was this manifesting? Typically black Caribbean boys would ask to sharpen their pencils more, and would spend more time setting up for tasks by arranging their utensils - rulers, calculators etc. This study then went into the homes of these black Caribbean boys and saw that this was how they were shown to do tasks at home - that the adults would, before doing a task like cooking, set out all the utensils they would need and prepare all their tools. So they had been taught something that was a cultural difference at home, but it was perceived in the school as disruptive when repeated there. This would then start young black Caribbean boys off with negative associations with institutional education which would cascade as they got older - with early issues having bigger effects later on.

    I've also seen studies that look at unconscious biases in personal tutors; where personal tutors were more likely to respond quickly to students who had male and white sounding names versus students who had female and non white sounding names. This kind of behaviour could also have a cascading effect - and it is something that is hard to notice as it is simply just someone probably skimming an email and unconsciously deeming things less urgent when they come from students of colour.

    These kinds of things - cultural differences in learning alongside unconscious biases - exist and we have to tackle them, both from a moral stand point and in existing regulation of the sector.
    Ah but you will not find causes that you control for. If you control for race instead, maybe living at home would be a factor. (One overlooked, off-the-wall factor in schools is sometimes the kids are too big, or the wrong shape, for the furniture.)
    We do control for on campus or off campus living in our data, it is not a significant factor at our institution
    I think we are at cross-purposes. If you are controlling for housing, then by definition you will not find housing to be a factor. Of course, it could be your institution has already ruled out any major effect before controlling for it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Let me guess that one. Black students are more likely to live at home. Living at home is worse than living with a critical mass of other students on campus, in terms of both results and drop-outs.
    At my institution the most significant factor, controlling for other factors like living at home, household income, gender etc. is race. The next significant is household income. Then disabilities. As to why, there can be lots of reasons.

    I remember once reading a study that discussed disciplining of young black Caribbean boys in primary schools and the discrepancies. Teachers would self report that those young students were more disruptive in class. How was this manifesting? Typically black Caribbean boys would ask to sharpen their pencils more, and would spend more time setting up for tasks by arranging their utensils - rulers, calculators etc. This study then went into the homes of these black Caribbean boys and saw that this was how they were shown to do tasks at home - that the adults would, before doing a task like cooking, set out all the utensils they would need and prepare all their tools. So they had been taught something that was a cultural difference at home, but it was perceived in the school as disruptive when repeated there. This would then start young black Caribbean boys off with negative associations with institutional education which would cascade as they got older - with early issues having bigger effects later on.

    I've also seen studies that look at unconscious biases in personal tutors; where personal tutors were more likely to respond quickly to students who had male and white sounding names versus students who had female and non white sounding names. This kind of behaviour could also have a cascading effect - and it is something that is hard to notice as it is simply just someone probably skimming an email and unconsciously deeming things less urgent when they come from students of colour.

    These kinds of things - cultural differences in learning alongside unconscious biases - exist and we have to tackle them, both from a moral stand point and in existing regulation of the sector.
    Again, one of the worst performing cohorts at school are white boys, especially white working class boys

    Are you going to be prioritising the education of white boys over other ethnic groups? No, thought not. Funny, that


    “OUT CLASSED UK White lads are the WORST at school and get the LOWEST GCSE results according to new report”

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2153574/white-lads-are-the-worst-at-school-and-get-the-lowest-gcse-results-according-to-new-report/
    But you've been told a few times now, by a few people, that schools do target white boys as a priority though.

    And yet you keep bringing this up as a gotcha.
    It's nearly six hours since Leon posted his first beer of the day.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    Presumably if the aim of the Act is to 'to tackle structural racial inequalities', its goal will be to promote positive discrimination and not just tackle discrimination
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,660
    edited October 2023
    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Is there a wealth disparity between the black students with much better grades than their white peers?
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,904

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Let me guess that one. Black students are more likely to live at home. Living at home is worse than living with a critical mass of other students on campus, in terms of both results and drop-outs.
    Or it could be that at school level black students are given so much extra help and support in order to compensate, that at A Level they over-achieve, and afterwards fall back to their real level?
  • HYUFD said:

    Presumably if the aim of the Act is to 'to tackle structural racial inequalities', its goal will be to promote positive discrimination and not just tackle discrimination

    Who knows? It could be Labour has spent the last decade working on detailed plans, or it could be a slogan that escaped from a focus group the day before yesterday.
  • ClippP said:

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Let me guess that one. Black students are more likely to live at home. Living at home is worse than living with a critical mass of other students on campus, in terms of both results and drop-outs.
    Or it could be that at school level black students are given so much extra help and support in order to compensate, that at A Level they over-achieve, and afterwards fall back to their real level?
    Something like that has long been posited to explain why private school high-flyers fall back at university. It is possible but even if true, we'd run into a debate on the meaning of "real level".
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,125

    Scott_xP said:

    @SamCoatesSky

    As per
    @Peston
    I’m also told the decision has been made to scrap the Manchester leg of HS2 with the money going on other transport projects

    Cancelling HS2 to Manchester, during the Conservative Party conference in (checks notes) Manchester, is about the most Rishi thing it's possible to do.
    And some people still think he is a good leader.

    One promising highlight is some little known East Anglian MP talking about building, cutting taxes and growing the economy. In a proper Tory party she would be leadership material.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    @henrymance

    Look, even in The Thick of It, they didn't host a party conference in Manchester while scrapping a major public transport connection to Manchester

    @skynewsniall

    Oh, and in a former railway station. Just for sh*ts and gigs.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,715
    Why is another Act needed? And why only for race? Why, for instance, should there not be a Sex Equality Act? Or a Disability Equality Act? And so on. And if only one characteristic is privileged in this way, what exactly is the reason for creating such a hierarchy?

    You gotta feel for Sir Kir. It's the performative imperative.
    He can't take the knee every day. Nor can she

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Let me guess that one. Black students are more likely to live at home. Living at home is worse than living with a critical mass of other students on campus, in terms of both results and drop-outs.
    At my institution the most significant factor, controlling for other factors like living at home, household income, gender etc. is race. The next significant is household income. Then disabilities. As to why, there can be lots of reasons.

    I remember once reading a study that discussed disciplining of young black Caribbean boys in primary schools and the discrepancies. Teachers would self report that those young students were more disruptive in class. How was this manifesting? Typically black Caribbean boys would ask to sharpen their pencils more, and would spend more time setting up for tasks by arranging their utensils - rulers, calculators etc. This study then went into the homes of these black Caribbean boys and saw that this was how they were shown to do tasks at home - that the adults would, before doing a task like cooking, set out all the utensils they would need and prepare all their tools. So they had been taught something that was a cultural difference at home, but it was perceived in the school as disruptive when repeated there. This would then start young black Caribbean boys off with negative associations with institutional education which would cascade as they got older - with early issues having bigger effects later on.

    I've also seen studies that look at unconscious biases in personal tutors; where personal tutors were more likely to respond quickly to students who had male and white sounding names versus students who had female and non white sounding names. This kind of behaviour could also have a cascading effect - and it is something that is hard to notice as it is simply just someone probably skimming an email and unconsciously deeming things less urgent when they come from students of colour.

    These kinds of things - cultural differences in learning alongside unconscious biases - exist and we have to tackle them, both from a moral stand point and in existing regulation of the sector.
    Again, one of the worst performing cohorts at school are white boys, especially white working class boys

    Are you going to be prioritising the education of white boys over other ethnic groups? No, thought not. Funny, that


    “OUT CLASSED UK White lads are the WORST at school and get the LOWEST GCSE results according to new report”

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2153574/white-lads-are-the-worst-at-school-and-get-the-lowest-gcse-results-according-to-new-report/
    But you've been told a few times now, by a few people, that schools do target white boys as a priority though.

    And yet you keep bringing this up as a gotcha.
    It's nearly six hours since Leon posted his first beer of the day.
    I’m in the frigging Maldives. Everyone drinks beer at noon coz it’s free and life is good

    Also you can’t beat scooter diving with 14 foot sharks and massive manta rays after a couple of stiff ones
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    edited October 2023
    ClippP said:

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Let me guess that one. Black students are more likely to live at home. Living at home is worse than living with a critical mass of other students on campus, in terms of both results and drop-outs.
    Or it could be that at school level black students are given so much extra help and support in order to compensate, that at A Level they over-achieve, and afterwards fall back to their real level?
    Possibly ? This is the case as to why independent school students go backwards a bit at degree compared to A-level. Definitely in my case, AAAD & a B A/S to a desmond.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    @AdamBienkov

    So to summarise, the Government has just announced plans to scrap the biggest public transport infrastructure project planned for any Northern city, while taking part in its conference in that same city, which its Chancellor chose to travel to by plane.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    @mikeysmith

    "However low in the polls the commentariat place us, I believe this week will be a turning point." - Peter Booth, the chair of the National Conservative Convention from the #cpc23 stage a moment ago.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,028
    The Tories are increasingly looking like a rabble. Decision to scrap HS2 shameful - and I’d argue hard to justify the government has any mandate left with a year to go. The 15 minute cities rubbish from Harper today and the Truss alternative speech look and sound ridiculous
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    ClippP said:

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Let me guess that one. Black students are more likely to live at home. Living at home is worse than living with a critical mass of other students on campus, in terms of both results and drop-outs.
    Or it could be that at school level black students are given so much extra help and support in order to compensate, that at A Level they over-achieve, and afterwards fall back to their real level?
    At GCSE there seems to be a split with Black African pupils doing better than White British but Black Caribbean pupils worse.

    Chinese and Indian pupils well ahead. Though of course immigrant families do tend to be more motivated anyway
    https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education-skills-and-training/11-to-16-years-old/gcse-results-attainment-8-for-children-aged-14-to-16-key-stage-4/latest
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,552
    edited October 2023

    The Tories are increasingly looking like a rabble. Decision to scrap HS2 shameful - and I’d argue hard to justify the government has any mandate left with a year to go. The 15 minute cities rubbish from Harper today and the Truss alternative speech look and sound ridiculous

    If it wasn't for the migration issue, Labour would probably be heading for a 250 seat majority.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    @steverichards14
    Rishi Sunak has inadvertently contrived to make the Conservatives' pre-election conference one about the future of HS2 rather than his broader vision for the future, whatever that may be....and with the scrapping of the Manchester leg he will trigger another noisy internal row. Leadership is impossibly tough..He's struggling to master the basic arts.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Let me guess that one. Black students are more likely to live at home. Living at home is worse than living with a critical mass of other students on campus, in terms of both results and drop-outs.
    At my institution the most significant factor, controlling for other factors like living at home, household income, gender etc. is race. The next significant is household income. Then disabilities. As to why, there can be lots of reasons.

    I remember once reading a study that discussed disciplining of young black Caribbean boys in primary schools and the discrepancies. Teachers would self report that those young students were more disruptive in class. How was this manifesting? Typically black Caribbean boys would ask to sharpen their pencils more, and would spend more time setting up for tasks by arranging their utensils - rulers, calculators etc. This study then went into the homes of these black Caribbean boys and saw that this was how they were shown to do tasks at home - that the adults would, before doing a task like cooking, set out all the utensils they would need and prepare all their tools. So they had been taught something that was a cultural difference at home, but it was perceived in the school as disruptive when repeated there. This would then start young black Caribbean boys off with negative associations with institutional education which would cascade as they got older - with early issues having bigger effects later on.

    I've also seen studies that look at unconscious biases in personal tutors; where personal tutors were more likely to respond quickly to students who had male and white sounding names versus students who had female and non white sounding names. This kind of behaviour could also have a cascading effect - and it is something that is hard to notice as it is simply just someone probably skimming an email and unconsciously deeming things less urgent when they come from students of colour.

    These kinds of things - cultural differences in learning alongside unconscious biases - exist and we have to tackle them, both from a moral stand point and in existing regulation of the sector.
    Again, one of the worst performing cohorts at school are white boys, especially white working class boys

    Are you going to be prioritising the education of white boys over other ethnic groups? No, thought not. Funny, that


    “OUT CLASSED UK White lads are the WORST at school and get the LOWEST GCSE results according to new report”

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2153574/white-lads-are-the-worst-at-school-and-get-the-lowest-gcse-results-according-to-new-report/
    But you've been told a few times now, by a few people, that schools do target white boys as a priority though.

    And yet you keep bringing this up as a gotcha.
    It's nearly six hours since Leon posted his first beer of the day.
    I’m in the frigging Maldives. Everyone drinks beer at noon coz it’s free and life is good

    Also you can’t beat scooter diving with 14 foot sharks and massive manta rays after a couple of stiff ones
    Not a criticism - just context.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011
    Scott_xP said:

    @SamCoatesSky

    As per
    @Peston
    I’m also told the decision has been made to scrap the Manchester leg of HS2 with the money going on other transport projects

    So Crossrail 2.

    A key part of the levelling up agenda.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,715

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Let me guess that one. Black students are more likely to live at home. Living at home is worse than living with a critical mass of other students on campus, in terms of both results and drop-outs.
    At my institution the most significant factor, controlling for other factors like living at home, household income, gender etc. is race. The next significant is household income. Then disabilities. As to why, there can be lots of reasons.

    I remember once reading a study that discussed disciplining of young black Caribbean boys in primary schools and the discrepancies. Teachers would self report that those young students were more disruptive in class. How was this manifesting? Typically black Caribbean boys would ask to sharpen their pencils more, and would spend more time setting up for tasks by arranging their utensils - rulers, calculators etc. This study then went into the homes of these black Caribbean boys and saw that this was how they were shown to do tasks at home - that the adults would, before doing a task like cooking, set out all the utensils they would need and prepare all their tools. So they had been taught something that was a cultural difference at home, but it was perceived in the school as disruptive when repeated there. This would then start young black Caribbean boys off with negative associations with institutional education which would cascade as they got older - with early issues having bigger effects later on.

    I've also seen studies that look at unconscious biases in personal tutors; where personal tutors were more likely to respond quickly to students who had male and white sounding names versus students who had female and non white sounding names. This kind of behaviour could also have a cascading effect - and it is something that is hard to notice as it is simply just someone probably skimming an email and unconsciously deeming things less urgent when they come from students of colour.

    These kinds of things - cultural differences in learning alongside unconscious biases - exist and we have to tackle them, both from a moral stand point and in existing regulation of the sector.
    Ah but you will not find causes that you control for. If you control for race instead, maybe living at home would be a factor. (One overlooked, off-the-wall factor in schools is sometimes the kids are too big, or the wrong shape, for the furniture.)
    We do control for on campus or off campus living in our data, it is not a significant factor at our institution
    I think we are at cross-purposes. If you are controlling for housing, then by definition you will not find housing to be a factor. Of course, it could be your institution has already ruled out any major effect before controlling for it.
    No, you might find housing is a factor, along with the thing you are focussed on. "Controlling for" does not mean "removing from consideration", it means specifically taking it into account so that it is not distorting the effect of the variable you are interested in, with which it might be correlated.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Let me guess that one. Black students are more likely to live at home. Living at home is worse than living with a critical mass of other students on campus, in terms of both results and drop-outs.
    At my institution the most significant factor, controlling for other factors like living at home, household income, gender etc. is race. The next significant is household income. Then disabilities. As to why, there can be lots of reasons.

    I remember once reading a study that discussed disciplining of young black Caribbean boys in primary schools and the discrepancies. Teachers would self report that those young students were more disruptive in class. How was this manifesting? Typically black Caribbean boys would ask to sharpen their pencils more, and would spend more time setting up for tasks by arranging their utensils - rulers, calculators etc. This study then went into the homes of these black Caribbean boys and saw that this was how they were shown to do tasks at home - that the adults would, before doing a task like cooking, set out all the utensils they would need and prepare all their tools. So they had been taught something that was a cultural difference at home, but it was perceived in the school as disruptive when repeated there. This would then start young black Caribbean boys off with negative associations with institutional education which would cascade as they got older - with early issues having bigger effects later on.

    I've also seen studies that look at unconscious biases in personal tutors; where personal tutors were more likely to respond quickly to students who had male and white sounding names versus students who had female and non white sounding names. This kind of behaviour could also have a cascading effect - and it is something that is hard to notice as it is simply just someone probably skimming an email and unconsciously deeming things less urgent when they come from students of colour.

    These kinds of things - cultural differences in learning alongside unconscious biases - exist and we have to tackle them, both from a moral stand point and in existing regulation of the sector.
    Again, one of the worst performing cohorts at school are white boys, especially white working class boys

    Are you going to be prioritising the education of white boys over other ethnic groups? No, thought not. Funny, that


    “OUT CLASSED UK White lads are the WORST at school and get the LOWEST GCSE results according to new report”

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2153574/white-lads-are-the-worst-at-school-and-get-the-lowest-gcse-results-according-to-new-report/
    But you've been told a few times now, by a few people, that schools do target white boys as a priority though.

    And yet you keep bringing this up as a gotcha.
    It's nearly six hours since Leon posted his first beer of the day.
    I’m in the frigging Maldives. Everyone drinks beer at noon coz it’s free and life is good

    Also you can’t beat scooter diving with 14 foot sharks and massive manta rays after a couple of stiff ones
    Not a criticism - just context.
    I’m actually stone cold sober. Had a siesta and a blissful massage, only now approaching martini time
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    White people in the UK now have lower life expectancy than all other ethnic groups. Are you going to prioritise the health of white people to make up for this?

    No, thought not

    “White people have the LOWEST life expectancy of any ethnic group in England and Wales, finds first official report of its kind”

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9826487/White-people-worst-life-expectancy-ethnic-group.html
    If the data shows that, then yes. One target group for educational outcomes, for instance, is working class white boys - their participation in higher education has been decreasing and therefore the sector has targets to improve that. (Although some of the arguments about why working class boys don't participate in higher education is partly because they feel their earning potential in work is not hindered by a lack of a degree, which is somewhat backed up by data. This is partly due to the high demand for manual labour skills, as well as the labour market generally being easier for white men. [Note the use of generally, I am not saying this is always the case, I am talking about probabilities and group statistics])
    Where is the Kier Royale Starmer statement proposing affirmative action for whites? To make up for their shorter lives, worse health, and inferior education achievements? It’s not ever gonna happen. And we all know why

    Potentially more ground for the conservative party to plough. There is lots of it.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759

    Scott_xP said:

    @SamCoatesSky

    As per
    @Peston
    I’m also told the decision has been made to scrap the Manchester leg of HS2 with the money going on other transport projects

    So Crossrail 2.

    A key part of the levelling up agenda.
    It's a very sensible investment. It's clear though that such projects entail us (the taxpayers) getting ripped off in quite shocking ways. What's odd though is that the big construction companies are all going bust. Where is the money going?
  • geoffw said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Let me guess that one. Black students are more likely to live at home. Living at home is worse than living with a critical mass of other students on campus, in terms of both results and drop-outs.
    At my institution the most significant factor, controlling for other factors like living at home, household income, gender etc. is race. The next significant is household income. Then disabilities. As to why, there can be lots of reasons.

    I remember once reading a study that discussed disciplining of young black Caribbean boys in primary schools and the discrepancies. Teachers would self report that those young students were more disruptive in class. How was this manifesting? Typically black Caribbean boys would ask to sharpen their pencils more, and would spend more time setting up for tasks by arranging their utensils - rulers, calculators etc. This study then went into the homes of these black Caribbean boys and saw that this was how they were shown to do tasks at home - that the adults would, before doing a task like cooking, set out all the utensils they would need and prepare all their tools. So they had been taught something that was a cultural difference at home, but it was perceived in the school as disruptive when repeated there. This would then start young black Caribbean boys off with negative associations with institutional education which would cascade as they got older - with early issues having bigger effects later on.

    I've also seen studies that look at unconscious biases in personal tutors; where personal tutors were more likely to respond quickly to students who had male and white sounding names versus students who had female and non white sounding names. This kind of behaviour could also have a cascading effect - and it is something that is hard to notice as it is simply just someone probably skimming an email and unconsciously deeming things less urgent when they come from students of colour.

    These kinds of things - cultural differences in learning alongside unconscious biases - exist and we have to tackle them, both from a moral stand point and in existing regulation of the sector.
    Ah but you will not find causes that you control for. If you control for race instead, maybe living at home would be a factor. (One overlooked, off-the-wall factor in schools is sometimes the kids are too big, or the wrong shape, for the furniture.)
    We do control for on campus or off campus living in our data, it is not a significant factor at our institution
    I think we are at cross-purposes. If you are controlling for housing, then by definition you will not find housing to be a factor. Of course, it could be your institution has already ruled out any major effect before controlling for it.
    No, you might find housing is a factor, along with the thing you are focussed on. "Controlling for" does not mean "removing from consideration", it means specifically taking it into account so that it is not distorting the effect of the variable you are interested in, with which it might be correlated.

    Yes to your second part. That's right. You control for things you think might be (minor or collinear) factors in order they do not emerge as factors in your analysis. The point is that if this institution's analysis controls for housing, it will not have housing drop out at the end.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,781
    edited October 2023
    Kemi's speech is a bit rubbish. I'm quite surprised how flat it is.

    Edit: picked up a teeny bit as it's gone one.
  • Omnium said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @SamCoatesSky

    As per
    @Peston
    I’m also told the decision has been made to scrap the Manchester leg of HS2 with the money going on other transport projects

    So Crossrail 2.

    A key part of the levelling up agenda.
    It's a very sensible investment. It's clear though that such projects entail us (the taxpayers) getting ripped off in quite shocking ways. What's odd though is that the big construction companies are all going bust. Where is the money going?
    Not on construction.

    On chopping and changing specs, lawyers, reviews etc, etc, etc

    It wouldn't surprise me if the actual construction costs end up a tiny fraction of the overall costs.

    Having politicians routinely reviewing or adapting the specs is a huge part of the problem - and they're doing it again now.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    @SkyNews

    'Don't bet against Britain. It's been tried before, and it never works.'

    Chancellor
    @Jeremy_Hunt
    speaks at the Tory party conference about the ONS 'changing their minds about the size of the British economy'.

    In other news, we can't build a fucking railway line...
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906
    edited October 2023

    Scott_xP said:

    @SamCoatesSky

    As per
    @Peston
    I’m also told the decision has been made to scrap the Manchester leg of HS2 with the money going on other transport projects

    So Crossrail 2.

    A key part of the levelling up agenda.
    It's kind of amazing that they can't see how Crossrail despite the delays and excess cost was still worth building and then using their gigantic brains ponder whether there is a lesson for HS2 which may last 100 years.

    If the UK had always been run by people like Sunak and Hunt we'd be much poorer and at best a developing country.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454
    As usual there’s nothing but dreary shite coming out of Manchester
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355
    edited October 2023

    One of the biggest levellers when it comes to universities, post A-Level results applications.

    Judge people on their actual grades plus some small adjustment things like performance against their peers at same school.

    Ditch university interviews (and personal statements) and run the whole thing off a computer once A-level results are out and the kids have done that group jumping in the air thing. Three months of work leading to biased outcomes replaced by half an hour on Leon's AI machine.
    This is another example where Britain could learn by looking across the Irish Sea. The CAO points system means that places are allocated on the basis of exam results, with the more in-demand courses having a higher points threshold for a place to be allocated.
  • glw said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @SamCoatesSky

    As per
    @Peston
    I’m also told the decision has been made to scrap the Manchester leg of HS2 with the money going on other transport projects

    So Crossrail 2.

    A key part of the levelling up agenda.
    It's kind of amazing that they can't see how Crossrail despite the delays and excess cost was still worth building and then using their gigantic brains ponder whether there is a lesson for HS2 which may last 100 years.

    If the UK had always been run by people like Sunak and Hunt we'd be much poorer and at best a developing country.
    The problem is that for decades the country has been mismanaged by an attitude that transport growth, or "induced demand" is something to be discouraged rather than encouraged as a fundamental part of economic growth.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,998
    Cyclefree - This brief -- and somewhat biased -- Wikipedia entry on a Washington state Initiative 200 may interest you: "Initiative 200 was a Washington state initiative to the Legislature promoted by California affirmative-action opponent Ward Connerly, and filed by Scott Smith and Tim Eyman.[1] It sought to prohibit racial and gender preferences by state and local government. It was on the Washington ballot in November 1998 and passed with 58.22% of the vote. It added to Washington's law (but not its constitution) the following language:

    The state shall not discriminate against, or grant preferential treatment to, any individual or group on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin in the operation of public employment, public education, or public contracting.[2]

    Initiative 200 effectively curtailed any form of affirmative action in the state.[3] In April 2019, the Washington Legislature passed Initiative 1000, ending the ban on affirmative action.[4] However, in November 2019, Referendum 88 blocked Initiative 1000 from going into effect."

    Two details you won't find there: Washington state has a community property law, so that any money earned in a marriage belongs equally to husband and wife. So, for example, before the passage of I-200, a contractor could convert his business to a "female-owned" business by giving 1 percent of it to a daughter, or to his wife. That would then give him an advantage in winning state jobs.

    Second, Japanese-Americans, before the passage of the initiative, were in a strange situation: They got "affirmative action" benefits in contracting, but not in admission to colleges and universities. So the same man might be treated as "white", and "non-white". (Those who understand quantum mechanics will appreciate that detail.)
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759

    Omnium said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @SamCoatesSky

    As per
    @Peston
    I’m also told the decision has been made to scrap the Manchester leg of HS2 with the money going on other transport projects

    So Crossrail 2.

    A key part of the levelling up agenda.
    It's a very sensible investment. It's clear though that such projects entail us (the taxpayers) getting ripped off in quite shocking ways. What's odd though is that the big construction companies are all going bust. Where is the money going?
    Not on construction.

    On chopping and changing specs, lawyers, reviews etc, etc, etc

    It wouldn't surprise me if the actual construction costs end up a tiny fraction of the overall costs.

    Having politicians routinely reviewing or adapting the specs is a huge part of the problem - and they're doing it again now.
    All of your points are undoubtedly right, but I rather imagine that's an odd billion of crap hiding a far greater pit. Hunt on the radio this morning was saying that our construction costs are 10x those in France.

    I'm sure we've all observed the complete uselessness of the average British contractor - scratching their arses while 3 others stand around and supervise, but it seems almost inconceivable that this is the answer.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368

    glw said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @SamCoatesSky

    As per
    @Peston
    I’m also told the decision has been made to scrap the Manchester leg of HS2 with the money going on other transport projects

    So Crossrail 2.

    A key part of the levelling up agenda.
    It's kind of amazing that they can't see how Crossrail despite the delays and excess cost was still worth building and then using their gigantic brains ponder whether there is a lesson for HS2 which may last 100 years.

    If the UK had always been run by people like Sunak and Hunt we'd be much poorer and at best a developing country.
    The problem is that for decades the country has been mismanaged by an attitude that transport growth, or "induced demand" is something to be discouraged rather than encouraged as a fundamental part of economic growth.
    The ability to quickly (and ideally cheaply) from A to B significantly increases the area in which people can find work.

    That means companies have a wider choice of people to employ when filling vacancies and provides people with the ability to find better paid work where their skills can be used (hence everyone wins because they are more productiove).
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368
    edited October 2023
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @SamCoatesSky

    As per
    @Peston
    I’m also told the decision has been made to scrap the Manchester leg of HS2 with the money going on other transport projects

    So Crossrail 2.

    A key part of the levelling up agenda.
    It's a very sensible investment. It's clear though that such projects entail us (the taxpayers) getting ripped off in quite shocking ways. What's odd though is that the big construction companies are all going bust. Where is the money going?
    Not on construction.

    On chopping and changing specs, lawyers, reviews etc, etc, etc

    It wouldn't surprise me if the actual construction costs end up a tiny fraction of the overall costs.

    Having politicians routinely reviewing or adapting the specs is a huge part of the problem - and they're doing it again now.
    All of your points are undoubtedly right, but I rather imagine that's an odd billion of crap hiding a far greater pit. Hunt on the radio this morning was saying that our construction costs are 10x those in France.

    I'm sure we've all observed the complete uselessness of the average British contractor - scratching their arses while 3 others stand around and supervise, but it seems almost inconceivable that this is the answer.
    To which the all important questions are

    1) why are our costs 10x that of France?
    2) what needs to be done to correct those issues?
    3) Which of items can be fixed quickly?

    Oh and I know he's lying that the costs are 10 times that of France but regardless of the actual multiply we should be identifying the issues and resolving them not stopping there and saying - tough.
  • Afternoon folks

    Thought I’d better update the good people of PB on how we fared doing the Yorkshire Three Peaks Challenge on Saturday, after people here were so generous with their donations.

    I did it, completed the circuit in 8.5hrs, which I’m pleased with but I really pushed myself - no stopping to eat, no breaks, just constant motion. In parts it was utterly brutal especially getting up Ingleborough, the last of the peaks. A few people dropped out after the second peak cos they were either done in or so far behind they’d have been climbing the last peak in the dark - not a good idea.

    I was the first to finish in our group - there were 28 of us that started in the end, 23 finished - and the last group of 5 got in after 13 hours in total, and they had to come down from Ingleborough in the dark. It was tricky enough in the daylight for me, so their persistence and determination was superb. One guy who did it had a prosthetic leg, after losing his leg in a crash last year. I cannot imagine how the hell he did that.

    A couple of people who were intending to do it had to pull out due to injuries so they plan to do it in May and I said I’d join them. I must be insane.

    We’re all stiff as a board and I’m still knackered - feels like a two day hangover today, that lingering lethargy I now have on a Monday if I’ve had a very boozy Saturday night.

    Thanks again PB for your donations, loads of people mentioned to me how generous people from this site have been. Just in case you missed the link and would like to donate to a charity that supports children with congenital heart problems at Leeds General Infirmary, here you go: https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/isaac-phoenix-davison?utm_source=whatsapp&utm_medium=fundraising&utm_content=isaac-phoenix-davison&utm_campaign=pfp-whatsapp&utm_term=a5d00617328744428695a5496d68e55f

    Most of us ponied up before the challenge so you could just have stayed in bed. Bear it in mind for May.
    Haha good point!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    ....
    Scott_xP said:

    @SkyNews

    'Don't bet against Britain. It's been tried before, and it never works.'

    Chancellor
    @Jeremy_Hunt
    speaks at the Tory party conference about the ONS 'changing their minds about the size of the British economy'.

    In other news, we can't build a fucking railway line...

    He does seem very pleased with himself. I am disappointed that Hunt is singing from the rinse and repeat punish scroungers songbook. I though Hunt was better than that.

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Let me guess that one. Black students are more likely to live at home. Living at home is worse than living with a critical mass of other students on campus, in terms of both results and drop-outs.
    At my institution the most significant factor, controlling for other factors like living at home, household income, gender etc. is race. The next significant is household income. Then disabilities. As to why, there can be lots of reasons.

    I remember once reading a study that discussed disciplining of young black Caribbean boys in primary schools and the discrepancies. Teachers would self report that those young students were more disruptive in class. How was this manifesting? Typically black Caribbean boys would ask to sharpen their pencils more, and would spend more time setting up for tasks by arranging their utensils - rulers, calculators etc. This study then went into the homes of these black Caribbean boys and saw that this was how they were shown to do tasks at home - that the adults would, before doing a task like cooking, set out all the utensils they would need and prepare all their tools. So they had been taught something that was a cultural difference at home, but it was perceived in the school as disruptive when repeated there. This would then start young black Caribbean boys off with negative associations with institutional education which would cascade as they got older - with early issues having bigger effects later on.

    I've also seen studies that look at unconscious biases in personal tutors; where personal tutors were more likely to respond quickly to students who had male and white sounding names versus students who had female and non white sounding names. This kind of behaviour could also have a cascading effect - and it is something that is hard to notice as it is simply just someone probably skimming an email and unconsciously deeming things less urgent when they come from students of colour.

    These kinds of things - cultural differences in learning alongside unconscious biases - exist and we have to tackle them, both from a moral stand point and in existing regulation of the sector.
    Again, one of the worst performing cohorts at school are white boys, especially white working class boys

    Are you going to be prioritising the education of white boys over other ethnic groups? No, thought not. Funny, that


    “OUT CLASSED UK White lads are the WORST at school and get the LOWEST GCSE results according to new report”

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2153574/white-lads-are-the-worst-at-school-and-get-the-lowest-gcse-results-according-to-new-report/
    But you've been told a few times now, by a few people, that schools do target white boys as a priority though.

    And yet you keep bringing this up as a gotcha.
    Leon reverting to type.

    I much prefer the postings from his less illiberal current alter egos.
  • eek said:

    glw said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @SamCoatesSky

    As per
    @Peston
    I’m also told the decision has been made to scrap the Manchester leg of HS2 with the money going on other transport projects

    So Crossrail 2.

    A key part of the levelling up agenda.
    It's kind of amazing that they can't see how Crossrail despite the delays and excess cost was still worth building and then using their gigantic brains ponder whether there is a lesson for HS2 which may last 100 years.

    If the UK had always been run by people like Sunak and Hunt we'd be much poorer and at best a developing country.
    The problem is that for decades the country has been mismanaged by an attitude that transport growth, or "induced demand" is something to be discouraged rather than encouraged as a fundamental part of economic growth.
    The ability to quickly (and ideally cheaply) from A to B significantly increases the area in which people can find work.

    That means companies have a wider choice of people to employ when filling vacancies and provides people with the ability to find better paid work where their skills can be used (hence everyone wins because they are more productiove).
    Absolutely, which is why we should be investing in more motorways, since driving is by far how most people get to work.

    Our motorways were constructed in the 60s and 70s and GDP per capita growth was far higher then as a result.

    For the past few decades we've neglected our infrastructure. If we'd kept investing in new motorway capacity at the same rate as we had in the 60s, we'd be far more productive today.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    edited October 2023
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Let me guess that one. Black students are more likely to live at home. Living at home is worse than living with a critical mass of other students on campus, in terms of both results and drop-outs.
    At my institution the most significant factor, controlling for other factors like living at home, household income, gender etc. is race. The next significant is household income. Then disabilities. As to why, there can be lots of reasons.

    I remember once reading a study that discussed disciplining of young black Caribbean boys in primary schools and the discrepancies. Teachers would self report that those young students were more disruptive in class. How was this manifesting? Typically black Caribbean boys would ask to sharpen their pencils more, and would spend more time setting up for tasks by arranging their utensils - rulers, calculators etc. This study then went into the homes of these black Caribbean boys and saw that this was how they were shown to do tasks at home - that the adults would, before doing a task like cooking, set out all the utensils they would need and prepare all their tools. So they had been taught something that was a cultural difference at home, but it was perceived in the school as disruptive when repeated there. This would then start young black Caribbean boys off with negative associations with institutional education which would cascade as they got older - with early issues having bigger effects later on.

    I've also seen studies that look at unconscious biases in personal tutors; where personal tutors were more likely to respond quickly to students who had male and white sounding names versus students who had female and non white sounding names. This kind of behaviour could also have a cascading effect - and it is something that is hard to notice as it is simply just someone probably skimming an email and unconsciously deeming things less urgent when they come from students of colour.

    These kinds of things - cultural differences in learning alongside unconscious biases - exist and we have to tackle them, both from a moral stand point and in existing regulation of the sector.
    Again, one of the worst performing cohorts at school are white boys, especially white working class boys

    Are you going to be prioritising the education of white boys over other ethnic groups? No, thought not. Funny, that


    “OUT CLASSED UK White lads are the WORST at school and get the LOWEST GCSE results according to new report”

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2153574/white-lads-are-the-worst-at-school-and-get-the-lowest-gcse-results-according-to-new-report/
    But you've been told a few times now, by a few people, that schools do target white boys as a priority though.

    And yet you keep bringing this up as a gotcha.
    It's nearly six hours since Leon posted his first beer of the day.
    I’m in the frigging Maldives. Everyone drinks beer at noon coz it’s free and life is good

    Also you can’t beat scooter diving with 14 foot sharks and massive manta rays after a couple of stiff ones
    Scooter diving? How many stiff ones?

    Oh such a thing exists. Feel silly now.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    Farooq said:

    148grss said:

    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Cookie said:

    Just when you think the Tories are so bad you have no option but to vote Labour next time, they come up with something like this.

    What specifically do you object to about this?
    I infer from "tackle structural racial inequalities" to mean "prioritise non-white people over white people".
    My view is that we should aim to treat people equally regardless of race. My inference is that the Labour Party do not believe this.
    If people were previously hindered due to their race, there will have to be a period where they are prioritised to bring them to equity with others. You cannot just remove the hinderance and leave it be, because what is left is still what was created by the existence of the barriers. You do need to actively tackle those issues.

    We can say the same for gender, class, sexuality, disability etc.
    I wouldn't go that far. Here are the questions:

    1. Does structure racial inequality exist?
    2. If so, does tackling it require legislation?
    3. If so, does that legislation necessarily require "prioritising" people who are its victims*.
    4. If so, what exactly does "prioritising" mean?

    My responses are
    1. Yes, definitely
    2. Perhaps
    3. Probably not
    4. I have no idea

    YMMV. I'll await detail before I get into a supportive/objecting mindset.

    *Of course, we aren't just talking about non-White people. Some White people face structural inequality and racism too, amongst which are Jews and Travellers.
    I work in higher education, so let me take that as an example.

    We know, for instance, that a black student with the same A level results is less likely to get a first than a white student. Indeed, 3 A*s for a black student will have the same outcomes as a BBB white student. So something is happening during the process of university education that is disadvantaging black students. Therefore something about the ways universities operate has to change. We can look at the history of British education and accept that the mode of teaching is essentially based off of two institutions that were designed and evolved to educate the elite of British society. We can see that, because of previous generations of discrimination, there are fewer non white profs and lecturers (similarly there are fewer women in professorships or lecturing positions, although that number is increasing). So the changes we need to make are to those aspects of British education that disadvantage non white students - prioritising black students specifically.

    Similar patterns can be seen with health outcome, job prospects, etc. They can also be seen in other intersecting categories - students with physical disabilities in higher education have lower outcomes comparable to their peers with similar results when entering university, muslim students similarly, as well as poorer students. We should be giving people equality of opportunity; and the only way to do that is to measure equality of outcomes.
    Let me guess that one. Black students are more likely to live at home. Living at home is worse than living with a critical mass of other students on campus, in terms of both results and drop-outs.
    At my institution the most significant factor, controlling for other factors like living at home, household income, gender etc. is race. The next significant is household income. Then disabilities. As to why, there can be lots of reasons.

    I remember once reading a study that discussed disciplining of young black Caribbean boys in primary schools and the discrepancies. Teachers would self report that those young students were more disruptive in class. How was this manifesting? Typically black Caribbean boys would ask to sharpen their pencils more, and would spend more time setting up for tasks by arranging their utensils - rulers, calculators etc. This study then went into the homes of these black Caribbean boys and saw that this was how they were shown to do tasks at home - that the adults would, before doing a task like cooking, set out all the utensils they would need and prepare all their tools. So they had been taught something that was a cultural difference at home, but it was perceived in the school as disruptive when repeated there. This would then start young black Caribbean boys off with negative associations with institutional education which would cascade as they got older - with early issues having bigger effects later on.

    I've also seen studies that look at unconscious biases in personal tutors; where personal tutors were more likely to respond quickly to students who had male and white sounding names versus students who had female and non white sounding names. This kind of behaviour could also have a cascading effect - and it is something that is hard to notice as it is simply just someone probably skimming an email and unconsciously deeming things less urgent when they come from students of colour.

    These kinds of things - cultural differences in learning alongside unconscious biases - exist and we have to tackle them, both from a moral stand point and in existing regulation of the sector.
    Again, one of the worst performing cohorts at school are white boys, especially white working class boys

    Are you going to be prioritising the education of white boys over other ethnic groups? No, thought not. Funny, that


    “OUT CLASSED UK White lads are the WORST at school and get the LOWEST GCSE results according to new report”

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2153574/white-lads-are-the-worst-at-school-and-get-the-lowest-gcse-results-according-to-new-report/
    But you've been told a few times now, by a few people, that schools do target white boys as a priority though.

    And yet you keep bringing this up as a gotcha.
    It's nearly six hours since Leon posted his first beer of the day.
    I’m in the frigging Maldives. Everyone drinks beer at noon coz it’s free and life is good

    Also you can’t beat scooter diving with 14 foot sharks and massive manta rays after a couple of stiff ones
    Scooter diving? How many stiff ones?
    Underwater scooter thing, TBF.

    Though 'stone cold sober' is, I suspect, a liberal use of the term.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368
    Omnium said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @SamCoatesSky

    As per
    @Peston
    I’m also told the decision has been made to scrap the Manchester leg of HS2 with the money going on other transport projects

    So Crossrail 2.

    A key part of the levelling up agenda.
    It's a very sensible investment. It's clear though that such projects entail us (the taxpayers) getting ripped off in quite shocking ways. What's odd though is that the big construction companies are all going bust. Where is the money going?
    I think we have multiple issues

    1) companies get told the budget for public projects so gold plate everything because they want more of the money
    2) this Government disliked risk so expected all the costs to be covered upfront. Ask me to take a risk on a project and I'll add 50% to the bill to cover that risk
    3) for private work construction material costs have rendered even projects that were sensible planned as problematic because they budget for inflation at say 10% rather than 40%..
This discussion has been closed.