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The Mid-Beds betting remains very tight – politicalbetting.com

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  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496

    ClippP said:



    What Labour really want, as Mr Taz says, is to grab all power unto themselves and impose a dictatorship of the proletariat, which does not have to pay any attention to what ordinary people want. Cue... Labour sneers about NIMBYs. Big Brother knows best.....

    People are disgusted by the incompetent and self-serving dictatorship the Conservatives are busy creating, but that is no reason to head for a Socialist dictatorship instead.

    It's been a while since I've heard it said that Labour is working for a dictatorship of the proletariat and a Socialist dictatorship - all I can say is that if that's what Keir Starmer secretly wants, he's the most sensational sleeper agent in history. But if that's what you think, it does explain why you're so rigidly partisan in your LibDem posts.
    Though TBF, as the Economist was pointing out recently, Sir K's policy cynicism is very high level and successful stuff. As to his actual personal views I have no idea. A lot of the best politicians (SFAICS) don't have any, beyond doing what might attain and retain power.

    The current Tory promotion of simultaneous contradictions exemplifies this, though they don't do it very well.

    He gets my vote as the best option available by far, but over the years he has promoted and defended varying positions to say the least.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    Chris said:

    AlsoLei said:

    Eabhal said:

    "We are a nation of drivers". Is "driver" going to end up as a protected characteristic?

    We've gone over this a number of times, but in my own group of friends and family there are a number of people who this new "British value" excludes:

    1) Challenges with diabetes - isn't able to drive all the time.
    2) Epilepsy. Particularly tricky in the north of Scotland.
    3) Old age/problems with hands
    4) Entry costs are too high (lessons, test etc) - about a third of my friends

    This isn't to comment on the political effectiveness of this messaging. It may well be a good move by Sunak. But there are openings to exploit for Labour.

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1708067400820687265?t=Ewfyp1XZO-02ZwvrxzPEtw&s=19

    Ahahahahahahahaha. I was joking earlier when I said their new policies were centred on bus lanes and bollards... and now:




    That's hilarious. Dogshit Rishi is Prime Minister.
    That would definitely require some means of the public reporting overrunning road works.

    A hotline, maybe.
    Who is getting fined? The roadworks company or the Local Authority?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    kjh said:



    Labour got nearly twice as many votes as the LDs in the 2019 GE (14,028/8,171). And in 2017 GE nearly five times as many votes (17,593/3,798).
    It seems entirely rational for Labour to put everything into winning this particular one, as Nick argues.

    Hi @Northern_Al. Agree with the numbers and if Labour want to they should, just as the LDs should if they want to. What's good for the goose as they say.

    But the logic of my argument - Any issue with it as to who would be most likely to win in a two way fight with the Tories? That is all I am saying when Nick points out that it is the LDs who are the spoilers.
    You're posting about a hypothetical world where Labour and LibDems effectively stand down for each other - as you know, neither party is up for that. However, there is a degree of unofficial understanding that if one of them are clearly the closer challenger, the other one won't try *too* hard. It's that understanding, which benefits the LibDems in places like Guildford, that they are breaking by trying hard in a seat where they are clearly third, and aggressively attacking the Labour candidate.

    We all have hardcore types who will go all-out in any election even if they started on 1%, but sensible parties encourage a bit of restraint and focus on winnable seats. By making it harder for second-place Labour to win in mid-Beds, it makes it more difficult for us sensible types to keep the "fight everything everywhere" school of thought in check.

    I do recognise that in a month where there are three by-elections, it's understandable that the LibDems want to make a serious effort somewhere rather than just sitting them all out. But a degree of restraint in the face of the polls showing Labour within an inch of beating the Tories would be appreciated.
    That's wrong too. If the Lib Dems have a fair chance of winning (and the polling suggests that they do) they should go for it.
    Particularly as Labour promised to change the voting system that forces voters into these unwholesome considerations in the first place, and then broke that promise, out of what at the time they saw as their naked self-interest (in the alternative promise-kept universe, the Tories never got a majority again).
    But, that's very naïve too.

    The Lib Dems and Labour teaming up for PR or a change in the voting system wouldn't guarantee centre-left government forever, anymore than it does in Europe.

    In fact, it would be more likely to bring radical fringe parties to power.
    Indeed, Italy has PR. Who is in power? The hard right Meloni.

    Germany has PR and the hard right AfD is surging. Sweden has PR and a government reliant on the Sweden Democrats for confidence and supply.

    New Zealand has PR and the governing Labour party looks headed for defeat
    I think people can exaggerate the impact of changes in the voting system. More extreme parties can win under PR, as per your examples, and under FPTP (Trump, Modi, Cummings).

  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748
    RobD said:

    Chris said:

    AlsoLei said:

    Eabhal said:

    "We are a nation of drivers". Is "driver" going to end up as a protected characteristic?

    We've gone over this a number of times, but in my own group of friends and family there are a number of people who this new "British value" excludes:

    1) Challenges with diabetes - isn't able to drive all the time.
    2) Epilepsy. Particularly tricky in the north of Scotland.
    3) Old age/problems with hands
    4) Entry costs are too high (lessons, test etc) - about a third of my friends

    This isn't to comment on the political effectiveness of this messaging. It may well be a good move by Sunak. But there are openings to exploit for Labour.

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1708067400820687265?t=Ewfyp1XZO-02ZwvrxzPEtw&s=19

    Ahahahahahahahaha. I was joking earlier when I said their new policies were centred on bus lanes and bollards... and now:




    That's hilarious. Dogshit Rishi is Prime Minister.
    That would definitely require some means of the public reporting overrunning road works.

    A hotline, maybe.
    I assume the council would be setting start/end dates for roadworks that cause road restrictions or closures. Why would you have to rely on public reporting?
    COUNCILS?!!

    YOU'D ENTRUST IT TO THE NATURAL ENEMIES OF THE DRIVER???!!?

    WHAT KIND OF A COMMIE/PINKO/LIB DEM/PEDESTRIAN ARE YOU!!!??
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748
    algarkirk said:

    AlsoLei said:

    Eabhal said:

    "We are a nation of drivers". Is "driver" going to end up as a protected characteristic?

    We've gone over this a number of times, but in my own group of friends and family there are a number of people who this new "British value" excludes:

    1) Challenges with diabetes - isn't able to drive all the time.
    2) Epilepsy. Particularly tricky in the north of Scotland.
    3) Old age/problems with hands
    4) Entry costs are too high (lessons, test etc) - about a third of my friends

    This isn't to comment on the political effectiveness of this messaging. It may well be a good move by Sunak. But there are openings to exploit for Labour.

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1708067400820687265?t=Ewfyp1XZO-02ZwvrxzPEtw&s=19

    Ahahahahahahahaha. I was joking earlier when I said their new policies were centred on bus lanes and bollards... and now:




    That's hilarious. Dogshit Rishi is Prime Minister.
    There is a big reason for avoiding bus lanes 'when in use' which appeals to voters of all shades of opinion. When in use you collide with a bus.
    This policy is just so weak. Obviously the policy should be: "FREE UP BUS LANES BY ABOLISHING BUSES"!
  • biggles said:

    Is it me, or is the chosen Tory font and some of the colours getting close to Aldi?

    Aldi is a step up after the sword carrier in chief's Poundland outfit. But yes.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786

    ClippP said:



    What Labour really want, as Mr Taz says, is to grab all power unto themselves and impose a dictatorship of the proletariat, which does not have to pay any attention to what ordinary people want. Cue... Labour sneers about NIMBYs. Big Brother knows best.....

    People are disgusted by the incompetent and self-serving dictatorship the Conservatives are busy creating, but that is no reason to head for a Socialist dictatorship instead.

    It's been a while since I've heard it said that Labour is working for a dictatorship of the proletariat and a Socialist dictatorship - all I can say is that if that's what Keir Starmer secretly wants, he's the most sensational sleeper agent in history. But if that's what you think, it does explain why you're so rigidly partisan in your LibDem posts.
    It is possible. After all the LDs sneaked Liz Truss into the Conservative Party and got her elected PM.
  • biggles said:

    AlsoLei said:

    Eabhal said:

    "We are a nation of drivers". Is "driver" going to end up as a protected characteristic?

    We've gone over this a number of times, but in my own group of friends and family there are a number of people who this new "British value" excludes:

    1) Challenges with diabetes - isn't able to drive all the time.
    2) Epilepsy. Particularly tricky in the north of Scotland.
    3) Old age/problems with hands
    4) Entry costs are too high (lessons, test etc) - about a third of my friends

    This isn't to comment on the political effectiveness of this messaging. It may well be a good move by Sunak. But there are openings to exploit for Labour.

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1708067400820687265?t=Ewfyp1XZO-02ZwvrxzPEtw&s=19

    Ahahahahahahahaha. I was joking earlier when I said their new policies were centred on bus lanes and bollards... and now:




    That's hilarious. Dogshit Rishi is Prime Minister.
    When is a bus lane “not in use”? Will they be open during the middle of the night when the other lanes are notoriously rammed?
    It would be fine if the government had solved all our real problems and were fannying about with this kind of nonsense because they had nothing better to do. They actually think that "Bus Lanes" is the problem the country faces. Extraordinary.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,695

    biggles said:

    AlsoLei said:

    Eabhal said:

    "We are a nation of drivers". Is "driver" going to end up as a protected characteristic?

    We've gone over this a number of times, but in my own group of friends and family there are a number of people who this new "British value" excludes:

    1) Challenges with diabetes - isn't able to drive all the time.
    2) Epilepsy. Particularly tricky in the north of Scotland.
    3) Old age/problems with hands
    4) Entry costs are too high (lessons, test etc) - about a third of my friends

    This isn't to comment on the political effectiveness of this messaging. It may well be a good move by Sunak. But there are openings to exploit for Labour.

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1708067400820687265?t=Ewfyp1XZO-02ZwvrxzPEtw&s=19

    Ahahahahahahahaha. I was joking earlier when I said their new policies were centred on bus lanes and bollards... and now:




    That's hilarious. Dogshit Rishi is Prime Minister.
    When is a bus lane “not in use”? Will they be open during the middle of the night when the other lanes are notoriously rammed?
    It would be fine if the government had solved all our real problems and were fannying about with this kind of nonsense because they had nothing better to do. They actually think that "Bus Lanes" is the problem the country faces. Extraordinary.
    Introducing a national parking tax doesn't sound very pro motorist.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051
    Chris said:

    Just when you think the quality of BBC reporting can't get any worse:

    Green Party plans to double membership fees amid legal woes
    ...
    The Greens are proposing a 50% increase in membership fees to build funds.
    If voted through at the Green Party Conference next week, the cost of being a member will rise from £3.33 a month to £5 a month ...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66935750

    But wait. Maybe "Sam Francis, political reporter & Helen Catt, political correspondent" are right. After all, 100% is double 50%, right?

    Leaving aside the journalists’ maths, there’s an actual notable story here about the party’s legal fights over trans rights policies with Shahrar Ali et al.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051

    Eabhal said:

    "We are a nation of drivers". Is "driver" going to end up as a protected characteristic?

    We've gone over this a number of times, but in my own group of friends and family there are a number of people who this new "British value" excludes:

    1) Challenges with diabetes - isn't able to drive all the time.
    2) Epilepsy. Particularly tricky in the north of Scotland.
    3) Old age/problems with hands
    4) Entry costs are too high (lessons, test etc) - about a third of my friends

    This isn't to comment on the political effectiveness of this messaging. It may well be a good move by Sunak. But there are openings to exploit for Labour.

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1708067400820687265?t=Ewfyp1XZO-02ZwvrxzPEtw&s=19

    The smart thing about Sunak's latest wheeze is that drivers don't use the NHS or other public services, don't have mortgage or rent payments to make, don't ever have to walk anywhere, have not been suffering a sustained cost of living crisis and are not concerned about raw turds pouring into our rivers and seas.

    I think who go on about “wild swimming” are annoying as well, but it’s a bit harsh to call them “raw turds”.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748

    Chris said:

    Just when you think the quality of BBC reporting can't get any worse:

    Green Party plans to double membership fees amid legal woes
    ...
    The Greens are proposing a 50% increase in membership fees to build funds.
    If voted through at the Green Party Conference next week, the cost of being a member will rise from £3.33 a month to £5 a month ...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66935750

    But wait. Maybe "Sam Francis, political reporter & Helen Catt, political correspondent" are right. After all, 100% is double 50%, right?

    Leaving aside the journalists’ maths, there’s an actual notable story here about the party’s legal fights over trans rights policies with Shahrar Ali et al.
    Indeed. Has it occurred to Liz Truss that she could sue the Conservative Party because her political beliefs are a protected characteristic?
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    What is a "parking platform"? And how do they help drivers?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748
    eristdoof said:

    What is a "parking platform"? And how do they help drivers?

    Apparently that's to do with helicopters, not cars:
    https://www.istockphoto.com/photo/helicopter-parking-platform-at-the-oil-plant-helipad-gm1338563122-419103253
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    This is unequivocally good news, and should also save quite a lot of money.

    Radiotherapy doses for prostate cancer could be cut by three-quarters, trial finds
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/sep/30/radiotherapy-doses-for-prostate-cancer-could-be-cut-by-three-quarters-trial-finds

  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986

    TimS said:

    Just got a speeding notice through the post for exceeding the limit in a 20mph zone.

    I’m voting Rishi now.

    Sympathies, Tim. May I enquire just how fast you were going?

    My understanding is that you are allowed 10% plus 2 over the limiti, so the 20 is effectively 24.

    Just curious, nothing else.
    26mph
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    Chris said:

    Just when you think the quality of BBC reporting can't get any worse:

    Green Party plans to double membership fees amid legal woes
    ...
    The Greens are proposing a 50% increase in membership fees to build funds.
    If voted through at the Green Party Conference next week, the cost of being a member will rise from £3.33 a month to £5 a month ...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66935750

    But wait. Maybe "Sam Francis, political reporter & Helen Catt, political correspondent" are right. After all, 100% is double 50%, right?

    Leaving aside the journalists’ maths, there’s an actual notable story here about the party’s legal fights over trans rights policies with Shahrar Ali et al.
    I like the idea of "Journalist Maths". I have just typed up a Journalist Proof of the Riemann Hypothesis and I hope to win a Journalist's Abel Prize. (I'm too old for the Journalist's Fields Prize.)
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    edited September 2023
    About 6 months ago I was having arguments with 'professionals' who sought to characterise all opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as 'conspiracy theorists' peddeling 'misinformation'. They tried to do the familiar thing where they characterise anyone they disagree with as being abusive with the idea that they should be shut down on the basis of hate speech. In this context it is quite interesting to now see opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as forming government policy. Some people just cannot come to terms with democracy.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,904

    ClippP said:



    What Labour really want, as Mr Taz says, is to grab all power unto themselves and impose a dictatorship of the proletariat, which does not have to pay any attention to what ordinary people want. Cue... Labour sneers about NIMBYs. Big Brother knows best.....

    People are disgusted by the incompetent and self-serving dictatorship the Conservatives are busy creating, but that is no reason to head for a Socialist dictatorship instead.

    It's been a while since I've heard it said that Labour is working for a dictatorship of the proletariat and a Socialist dictatorship - all I can say is that if that's what Keir Starmer secretly wants, he's the most sensational sleeper agent in history. But if that's what you think, it does explain why you're so rigidly partisan in your LibDem posts.
    Very interesting that, when I say Labour Party, Mr Palmer replies Starmer.

    The Labour Party is made up of many strands, some of which would like nothing more than to see the dictatorship of the proletariat. I wonder if Mr Palmer remembers the government of Jim Callaghan, which was undermined in its final days by the hard left Socialists and their Winter of Discontent? Undermined because Callaghan wasn't being socialist enough for them - and so they paved the way for the disaster that was Thatcherism.

    Or indeed the recent leadership of Jeremy Corbyn who posed as the saviour of our relationship with the EU, even though he spent his whole political life opposing it, because it would prevent him fom carrying out a thoroughly Socialist programme?

    I do not think there are many disenchanted former Conservatives voters in Mid Beds who are likely to go straight over to voting Labour. Because, quite simply, Labour are not to be trusted. So where do disenchanted Conservative voters go, if not the Lib Dems?
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    biggles said:

    AlsoLei said:

    Eabhal said:

    "We are a nation of drivers". Is "driver" going to end up as a protected characteristic?

    We've gone over this a number of times, but in my own group of friends and family there are a number of people who this new "British value" excludes:

    1) Challenges with diabetes - isn't able to drive all the time.
    2) Epilepsy. Particularly tricky in the north of Scotland.
    3) Old age/problems with hands
    4) Entry costs are too high (lessons, test etc) - about a third of my friends

    This isn't to comment on the political effectiveness of this messaging. It may well be a good move by Sunak. But there are openings to exploit for Labour.

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1708067400820687265?t=Ewfyp1XZO-02ZwvrxzPEtw&s=19

    Ahahahahahahahaha. I was joking earlier when I said their new policies were centred on bus lanes and bollards... and now:




    That's hilarious. Dogshit Rishi is Prime Minister.
    When is a bus lane “not in use”? Will they be open during the middle of the night when the other lanes are notoriously rammed?
    It would be fine if the government had solved all our real problems and were fannying about with this kind of nonsense because they had nothing better to do. They actually think that "Bus Lanes" is the problem the country faces. Extraordinary.
    Yeah, it does look as if the government has run out of proper ideas and is jumping the shark.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    I remember the halcyon days of internet optimism of the late '90s.

    The internet would be decentralising, democratising, build links and communities between people. Independent, localised control, everyone taking charge of their own destiny. Some of this has come to pass, but possibly more has happened the opposite way around.

    And some of us grinned cynically at the bar of the Gentlemen Loser. Outside, in the ally, The Finn’s construct scanned the snow…
  • AlsoLei said:

    My comment on August 18th: "Here's a left-field idea to solve the parking app problem: have the government create a single national parking app."

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4510585#Comment_4510585
    It honestly wouldn't surprise me if a lot of ministers, wonks and special advisors scan the comments for inspiration or ideas.

    The 100-200 people who regularly post on here are an influential bunch.
  • Make public transport a less attractive proposition by reducing bus lanes, so sending more people to their cars, so making traffic even worse. Just the kind of smart, long-term, joined-up thinking we need right now.
  • Chris said:

    RobD said:

    Chris said:

    AlsoLei said:

    Eabhal said:

    "We are a nation of drivers". Is "driver" going to end up as a protected characteristic?

    We've gone over this a number of times, but in my own group of friends and family there are a number of people who this new "British value" excludes:

    1) Challenges with diabetes - isn't able to drive all the time.
    2) Epilepsy. Particularly tricky in the north of Scotland.
    3) Old age/problems with hands
    4) Entry costs are too high (lessons, test etc) - about a third of my friends

    This isn't to comment on the political effectiveness of this messaging. It may well be a good move by Sunak. But there are openings to exploit for Labour.

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1708067400820687265?t=Ewfyp1XZO-02ZwvrxzPEtw&s=19

    Ahahahahahahahaha. I was joking earlier when I said their new policies were centred on bus lanes and bollards... and now:




    That's hilarious. Dogshit Rishi is Prime Minister.
    That would definitely require some means of the public reporting overrunning road works.

    A hotline, maybe.
    I assume the council would be setting start/end dates for roadworks that cause road restrictions or closures. Why would you have to rely on public reporting?
    COUNCILS?!!

    YOU'D ENTRUST IT TO THE NATURAL ENEMIES OF THE DRIVER???!!?

    WHAT KIND OF A COMMIE/PINKO/LIB DEM/PEDESTRIAN ARE YOU!!!??
    Commies, pinkos and traitors.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,581
    kjh said:

    IanB2 said:



    Certainly, anywhere within easy reach of London, Labour is able to mobilise a lot of resources. And there's truth that the LibDems find it difficult to campaign against both of the main parties at the same time, preferring to establish a two-party contest and then squeeze the support of the other main party, which I suspect is going to be difficult in mid Beds.

    The logic of your post, however, is that Labour may well not win - in which case their intervention would simply have saved the seat for the Tories - just as in Finchley at the GE.

    My perception, which I've been trying to avoid posting as it's so obviously partisan, is that the LibDems are the spoilers here, by making a major effort in a seat where they started clearly third. I really think that the LibDem habit of fighting every by-election on the basis of "only we can beat the Tories" is unpleasant and ultimately self-defeating (because it undermines their making the same claim in seats where they really ARE the only serious challenger). Describing Labour fighting hard where they're a clear second and the betting favourites as an "intervention" is just, well, partisan.
    Not sure of your logic here Nick.

    If LDs fight it and Lab don't it is a slam dunk LD win
    If Lab fight it and LDs don't it is a possible (just possible) Lab win

    Why are the LDs the spoilers? Why is it not that Lab are the spoilers?

    Seems to me that the same argument could be put to Labour and even more strongly as if it were a two way fight with the Tories the LDs would be more certain winners not Labour.
    Also Lib Dems were the favourites until recently when Labour upped their efforts.
  • AlsoLei said:

    My comment on August 18th: "Here's a left-field idea to solve the parking app problem: have the government create a single national parking app."

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4510585#Comment_4510585
    It honestly wouldn't surprise me if a lot of ministers, wonks and special advisors scan the comments for inspiration or ideas.

    The 100-200 people who regularly post on here are an influential bunch.
    Your 53,000th post.

    Tory astroturfers were a feature of Cameron's days, and the great man himself is said to have lurked. A question for @rcs1000 is how many posters' IP addresses change during each party's conference, and then change back?
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    I remember the halcyon days of internet optimism of the late '90s.

    The internet would be decentralising, democratising, build links and communities between people. Independent, localised control, everyone taking charge of their own destiny. Some of this has come to pass, but possibly more has happened the opposite way around.

    At the same time the internet pessimists were contented with email and could not believe the internet would catch on. Many were asking, 'how can anyone possibly make money from the internet except maybe for a few specialist retailers?'.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051

    darkage said:

    About 6 months ago I was having arguments with 'professionals' who sought to characterise all opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as 'conspiracy theorists' peddeling 'misinformation'. They tried to do the familiar thing where they characterise anyone they disagree with as being abusive with the idea that they should be shut down on the basis of hate speech. In this context it is quite interesting to now see opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as forming government policy. Some people just cannot come to terms with democracy.

    Given that Fifteen Minute Neighbourhoods is a fancy pants way of saying "plan things so that people have shops, GPs, schools, parks and so on a reasonably short walk away", what exactly is the issue?

    I can understand the anxiety about LTNs, even if I disagree with it.

    But who is going to have their life made worse by a Fifteen Minute Neighbourhood? That Rishi is sticking his tiny nose in there looks crazy.
    I don’t see how this disproves there are conspiracy theories. Rather, it shows how powerful those conspiracy theories are that Sunak thinks he can capitalise on them.
  • AlsoLeiAlsoLei Posts: 1,457
    edited September 2023
    darkage said:

    About 6 months ago I was having arguments with 'professionals' who sought to characterise all opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as 'conspiracy theorists' peddeling 'misinformation'. They tried to do the familiar thing where they characterise anyone they disagree with as being abusive with the idea that they should be shut down on the basis of hate speech. In this context it is quite interesting to now see opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as forming government policy. Some people just cannot come to terms with democracy.

    Er. As I understand it, a 15 minute city is one in which there's a GP surgery, a bus stop, a supermarket, and a pub or cafe within about 15 minutes walk - like a traditional British city. And not building American-style super suburbs without any element of commercial or retail mixed in.

    So... why would that be subject to conspiracy theories?

    Have I missed something obvious here?

    ETA: Oh, obviously I have - the BBC are reporting that Dogshit Rishi is going to 'Stop councils implementing "15-minute cities", where essential amenities are always within a 15-minute walk'. WTF?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748

    Chris said:

    RobD said:

    Chris said:

    AlsoLei said:

    Eabhal said:

    "We are a nation of drivers". Is "driver" going to end up as a protected characteristic?

    We've gone over this a number of times, but in my own group of friends and family there are a number of people who this new "British value" excludes:

    1) Challenges with diabetes - isn't able to drive all the time.
    2) Epilepsy. Particularly tricky in the north of Scotland.
    3) Old age/problems with hands
    4) Entry costs are too high (lessons, test etc) - about a third of my friends

    This isn't to comment on the political effectiveness of this messaging. It may well be a good move by Sunak. But there are openings to exploit for Labour.

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1708067400820687265?t=Ewfyp1XZO-02ZwvrxzPEtw&s=19

    Ahahahahahahahaha. I was joking earlier when I said their new policies were centred on bus lanes and bollards... and now:




    That's hilarious. Dogshit Rishi is Prime Minister.
    That would definitely require some means of the public reporting overrunning road works.

    A hotline, maybe.
    I assume the council would be setting start/end dates for roadworks that cause road restrictions or closures. Why would you have to rely on public reporting?
    COUNCILS?!!

    YOU'D ENTRUST IT TO THE NATURAL ENEMIES OF THE DRIVER???!!?

    WHAT KIND OF A COMMIE/PINKO/LIB DEM/PEDESTRIAN ARE YOU!!!??
    Commies, pinkos and traitors.
    Free up pavements when not in use.

    Could be a vote winner.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748
    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    RobD said:

    Chris said:

    AlsoLei said:

    Eabhal said:

    "We are a nation of drivers". Is "driver" going to end up as a protected characteristic?

    We've gone over this a number of times, but in my own group of friends and family there are a number of people who this new "British value" excludes:

    1) Challenges with diabetes - isn't able to drive all the time.
    2) Epilepsy. Particularly tricky in the north of Scotland.
    3) Old age/problems with hands
    4) Entry costs are too high (lessons, test etc) - about a third of my friends

    This isn't to comment on the political effectiveness of this messaging. It may well be a good move by Sunak. But there are openings to exploit for Labour.

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1708067400820687265?t=Ewfyp1XZO-02ZwvrxzPEtw&s=19

    Ahahahahahahahaha. I was joking earlier when I said their new policies were centred on bus lanes and bollards... and now:




    That's hilarious. Dogshit Rishi is Prime Minister.
    That would definitely require some means of the public reporting overrunning road works.

    A hotline, maybe.
    I assume the council would be setting start/end dates for roadworks that cause road restrictions or closures. Why would you have to rely on public reporting?
    COUNCILS?!!

    YOU'D ENTRUST IT TO THE NATURAL ENEMIES OF THE DRIVER???!!?

    WHAT KIND OF A COMMIE/PINKO/LIB DEM/PEDESTRIAN ARE YOU!!!??
    Commies, pinkos and traitors.
    Free up pavements when not in use.

    Could be a vote winner.
    PS To Rishi or any of his advisors who may be looking in - I was only kidding!!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    Make public transport a less attractive proposition by reducing bus lanes, so sending more people to their cars, so making traffic even worse. Just the kind of smart, long-term, joined-up thinking we need right now.

    It’s what they are doing in West London - turn the bus lane into a rather awkward cycle lane. Which means the buses stop and start moving with the traffic. Used to be that the bus was noticeably faster than a car.

    Meanwhile the e-bike deliveroo riders are doing their best to scare people out of the new cycle lane.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    AlsoLei said:

    My comment on August 18th: "Here's a left-field idea to solve the parking app problem: have the government create a single national parking app."

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4510585#Comment_4510585
    Ah platform here means an app. I thought it meant some kind of citizens debating platform.
  • AlsoLei said:

    darkage said:

    About 6 months ago I was having arguments with 'professionals' who sought to characterise all opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as 'conspiracy theorists' peddeling 'misinformation'. They tried to do the familiar thing where they characterise anyone they disagree with as being abusive with the idea that they should be shut down on the basis of hate speech. In this context it is quite interesting to now see opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as forming government policy. Some people just cannot come to terms with democracy.

    Er. As I understand it, a 15 minute city is one in which there's a GP surgery, a bus stop, a supermarket, and a pub or cafe within about 15 minutes walk - like a traditional British city. And not building American-style super suburbs without any element of commercial or retail mixed in.

    So... why would that be subject to conspiracy theories?

    Have I missed something obvious here?

    ETA: Oh, obviously I have - the BBC are reporting that Dogshit Rishi is going to 'Stop councils implementing "15-minute cities", where essential amenities are always within a 15-minute walk'. WTF?

    Yep - like HS2, being able to walk to the shops or the GP surgery in 15 minutes is now woke.

  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    edited September 2023
    AlsoLei said:

    AlsoLei said:

    darkage said:

    About 6 months ago I was having arguments with 'professionals' who sought to characterise all opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as 'conspiracy theorists' peddeling 'misinformation'. They tried to do the familiar thing where they characterise anyone they disagree with as being abusive with the idea that they should be shut down on the basis of hate speech. In this context it is quite interesting to now see opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as forming government policy. Some people just cannot come to terms with democracy.

    Er. As I understand it, a 15 minute city is one in which there's a GP surgery, a bus stop, a supermarket, and a pub or cafe within about 15 minutes walk - like a traditional British city. And not building American-style super suburbs without any element of commercial or retail mixed in.

    So... why would that be subject to conspiracy theories?

    Have I missed something obvious here?

    ETA: Oh, obviously I have - the BBC are reporting that Dogshit Rishi is going to 'Stop councils implementing "15-minute cities", where essential amenities are always within a 15-minute walk'. WTF?
    I mean, where I live, all of those things are less than 15 mins away right now. Is Sunak going to stand outside my house and force me to walk round the block twice before I'm allowed to go to Sainsburys?
    I’m walking to Tesco express as we speak. We must stop this madness and get me back in the car, speeding to Sydenham big Sainsburys at well over 20mph, ignoring the dastardly camera that snapped me last weekend.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,695
    AlsoLei said:

    darkage said:

    About 6 months ago I was having arguments with 'professionals' who sought to characterise all opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as 'conspiracy theorists' peddeling 'misinformation'. They tried to do the familiar thing where they characterise anyone they disagree with as being abusive with the idea that they should be shut down on the basis of hate speech. In this context it is quite interesting to now see opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as forming government policy. Some people just cannot come to terms with democracy.

    Er. As I understand it, a 15 minute city is one in which there's a GP surgery, a bus stop, a supermarket, and a pub or cafe within about 15 minutes walk - like a traditional British city. And not building American-style super suburbs without any element of commercial or retail mixed in.

    So... why would that be subject to conspiracy theories?

    Have I missed something obvious here?

    ETA: Oh, obviously I have - the BBC are reporting that Dogshit Rishi is going to 'Stop councils implementing "15-minute cities", where essential amenities are always within a 15-minute walk'. WTF?
    The conspiracy theory was that 'they are a “socialist”, or even “Stalinist”, attempt to control the population by actively preventing citizens from straying more than 15 minutes from their homes.'

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,652
    edited September 2023
    TimS said:

    AlsoLei said:

    AlsoLei said:

    darkage said:

    About 6 months ago I was having arguments with 'professionals' who sought to characterise all opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as 'conspiracy theorists' peddeling 'misinformation'. They tried to do the familiar thing where they characterise anyone they disagree with as being abusive with the idea that they should be shut down on the basis of hate speech. In this context it is quite interesting to now see opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as forming government policy. Some people just cannot come to terms with democracy.

    Er. As I understand it, a 15 minute city is one in which there's a GP surgery, a bus stop, a supermarket, and a pub or cafe within about 15 minutes walk - like a traditional British city. And not building American-style super suburbs without any element of commercial or retail mixed in.

    So... why would that be subject to conspiracy theories?

    Have I missed something obvious here?

    ETA: Oh, obviously I have - the BBC are reporting that Dogshit Rishi is going to 'Stop councils implementing "15-minute cities", where essential amenities are always within a 15-minute walk'. WTF?
    I mean, where I live, all of those things are less than 15 mins away right now. Is Sunak going to stand outside my house and force me to walk round the block twice before I'm allowed to go to Sainsburys?
    I’m walking to Tesco express as we speak. We must stop this madness and get me back in the car, speeding to Sydenham big Sainsburys at well over 20mph, ignoring the dastardly camera that snapped me last weekend.

    I wonder if you'll do a speed awareness course and be taught about how much safer it is to drive at 20 mph than 30 mph!

    The one I did recently was basically all about that. Government approved, of course.

  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    edited September 2023
    AlsoLei said:

    AlsoLei said:

    darkage said:

    About 6 months ago I was having arguments with 'professionals' who sought to characterise all opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as 'conspiracy theorists' peddeling 'misinformation'. They tried to do the familiar thing where they characterise anyone they disagree with as being abusive with the idea that they should be shut down on the basis of hate speech. In this context it is quite interesting to now see opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as forming government policy. Some people just cannot come to terms with democracy.

    Er. As I understand it, a 15 minute city is one in which there's a GP surgery, a bus stop, a supermarket, and a pub or cafe within about 15 minutes walk - like a traditional British city. And not building American-style super suburbs without any element of commercial or retail mixed in.

    So... why would that be subject to conspiracy theories?

    Have I missed something obvious here?

    ETA: Oh, obviously I have - the BBC are reporting that Dogshit Rishi is going to 'Stop councils implementing "15-minute cities", where essential amenities are always within a 15-minute walk'. WTF?
    I mean, where I live, all of those things are less than 15 mins away right now. Is Sunak going to stand outside my house and force me to walk round the block twice before I'm allowed to go to Sainsburys?
    I have three Greggs within 15 minutes walk of my flat in Edinburgh. RIP :(

    Countless churches in rural England are going to have be demolished too. Those Methodist chapels get everywhere.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    AlsoLei said:

    darkage said:

    About 6 months ago I was having arguments with 'professionals' who sought to characterise all opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as 'conspiracy theorists' peddeling 'misinformation'. They tried to do the familiar thing where they characterise anyone they disagree with as being abusive with the idea that they should be shut down on the basis of hate speech. In this context it is quite interesting to now see opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as forming government policy. Some people just cannot come to terms with democracy.

    Er. As I understand it, a 15 minute city is one in which there's a GP surgery, a bus stop, a supermarket, and a pub or cafe within about 15 minutes walk - like a traditional British city. And not building American-style super suburbs without any element of commercial or retail mixed in.

    So... why would that be subject to conspiracy theories?

    Have I missed something obvious here?

    ETA: Oh, obviously I have - the BBC are reporting that Dogshit Rishi is going to 'Stop councils implementing "15-minute cities", where essential amenities are always within a 15-minute walk'. WTF?
    Given the history of planners designing communities, to get away from (and destroy existing examples of) the kind of “village life” that this describes….

  • TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Just got a speeding notice through the post for exceeding the limit in a 20mph zone.

    I’m voting Rishi now.

    Sympathies, Tim. May I enquire just how fast you were going?

    My understanding is that you are allowed 10% plus 2 over the limiti, so the 20 is effectively 24.

    Just curious, nothing else.
    26mph
    Is this in the New Wales regime?
  • AlsoLei said:

    darkage said:

    About 6 months ago I was having arguments with 'professionals' who sought to characterise all opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as 'conspiracy theorists' peddeling 'misinformation'. They tried to do the familiar thing where they characterise anyone they disagree with as being abusive with the idea that they should be shut down on the basis of hate speech. In this context it is quite interesting to now see opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as forming government policy. Some people just cannot come to terms with democracy.

    Er. As I understand it, a 15 minute city is one in which there's a GP surgery, a bus stop, a supermarket, and a pub or cafe within about 15 minutes walk - like a traditional British city. And not building American-style super suburbs without any element of commercial or retail mixed in.

    So... why would that be subject to conspiracy theories?

    Have I missed something obvious here?

    ETA: Oh, obviously I have - the BBC are reporting that Dogshit Rishi is going to 'Stop councils implementing "15-minute cities", where essential amenities are always within a 15-minute walk'. WTF?
    The conspiracy theory is "you'll have to Stay In Your Sector, on pain of being fined."

    But that is also unhinged.

    The thing about an AI is that, if you give it the wrong training set of data, it goes off the rails. Rishibot appears to have been fed the more bonkers bits of the right wing internet.
  • AlsoLei said:

    darkage said:

    About 6 months ago I was having arguments with 'professionals' who sought to characterise all opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as 'conspiracy theorists' peddeling 'misinformation'. They tried to do the familiar thing where they characterise anyone they disagree with as being abusive with the idea that they should be shut down on the basis of hate speech. In this context it is quite interesting to now see opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as forming government policy. Some people just cannot come to terms with democracy.

    Er. As I understand it, a 15 minute city is one in which there's a GP surgery, a bus stop, a supermarket, and a pub or cafe within about 15 minutes walk - like a traditional British city. And not building American-style super suburbs without any element of commercial or retail mixed in.

    So... why would that be subject to conspiracy theories?

    Have I missed something obvious here?

    ETA: Oh, obviously I have - the BBC are reporting that Dogshit Rishi is going to 'Stop councils implementing "15-minute cities", where essential amenities are always within a 15-minute walk'. WTF?

    Yep - like HS2, being able to walk to the shops or the GP surgery in 15 minutes is now woke.

    Anyone who walks anywhere is basically now a traitor.

    Yep, pedestrians hate Britain.

  • novanova Posts: 690
    AlsoLei said:

    darkage said:

    About 6 months ago I was having arguments with 'professionals' who sought to characterise all opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as 'conspiracy theorists' peddeling 'misinformation'. They tried to do the familiar thing where they characterise anyone they disagree with as being abusive with the idea that they should be shut down on the basis of hate speech. In this context it is quite interesting to now see opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as forming government policy. Some people just cannot come to terms with democracy.

    Er. As I understand it, a 15 minute city is one in which there's a GP surgery, a bus stop, a supermarket, and a pub or cafe within about 15 minutes walk - like a traditional British city. And not building American-style super suburbs without any element of commercial or retail mixed in.

    So... why would that be subject to conspiracy theories?

    Have I missed something obvious here?

    ETA: Oh, obviously I have - the BBC are reporting that Dogshit Rishi is going to 'Stop councils implementing "15-minute cities", where essential amenities are always within a 15-minute walk'. WTF?
    The conspiracy is a pretty much Covid grifters looking for a new angle.

    Some of the 15 minute City plans involve restrictions on where you can drive. I think Oxford had it that you could drive through the centre of town a couple of hundred times a year, but after that you'd be fined. They wanted people going from one outer zone to another to use ring roads and avoid the centre to cut down congestion.

    The conspiracy is that this is a precursor to a "stay in your zone" plan. If we have everything within 15 minutes, they will then stop anyone leaving the zone at all, so the state knows where we are at all times.

    It's obviously bollocks, but so many people are down the rabbit hole already, that it's taken a real hold in the post-covid conspiracy theory community.

    It's embarrassing that the PM is latching onto it, as it's clearly a dog whistle for conspiracy theorists.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647

    AlsoLei said:

    darkage said:

    About 6 months ago I was having arguments with 'professionals' who sought to characterise all opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as 'conspiracy theorists' peddeling 'misinformation'. They tried to do the familiar thing where they characterise anyone they disagree with as being abusive with the idea that they should be shut down on the basis of hate speech. In this context it is quite interesting to now see opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as forming government policy. Some people just cannot come to terms with democracy.

    Er. As I understand it, a 15 minute city is one in which there's a GP surgery, a bus stop, a supermarket, and a pub or cafe within about 15 minutes walk - like a traditional British city. And not building American-style super suburbs without any element of commercial or retail mixed in.

    So... why would that be subject to conspiracy theories?

    Have I missed something obvious here?

    ETA: Oh, obviously I have - the BBC are reporting that Dogshit Rishi is going to 'Stop councils implementing "15-minute cities", where essential amenities are always within a 15-minute walk'. WTF?
    Given the history of planners designing communities, to get away from (and destroy existing examples of) the kind of “village life” that this describes….

    7,000 pubs gone in the last decade. This attack on walking must be the final nail in the coffin for this great British institution.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786

    AlsoLei said:

    My comment on August 18th: "Here's a left-field idea to solve the parking app problem: have the government create a single national parking app."

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4510585#Comment_4510585
    It honestly wouldn't surprise me if a lot of ministers, wonks and special advisors scan the comments for inspiration or ideas.

    The 100-200 people who regularly post on here are an influential bunch.
    My god we could cause havoc by coming up with some batshit ideas. Oh wait....
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    edited September 2023
    nova said:

    AlsoLei said:

    darkage said:

    About 6 months ago I was having arguments with 'professionals' who sought to characterise all opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as 'conspiracy theorists' peddeling 'misinformation'. They tried to do the familiar thing where they characterise anyone they disagree with as being abusive with the idea that they should be shut down on the basis of hate speech. In this context it is quite interesting to now see opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as forming government policy. Some people just cannot come to terms with democracy.

    Er. As I understand it, a 15 minute city is one in which there's a GP surgery, a bus stop, a supermarket, and a pub or cafe within about 15 minutes walk - like a traditional British city. And not building American-style super suburbs without any element of commercial or retail mixed in.

    So... why would that be subject to conspiracy theories?

    Have I missed something obvious here?

    ETA: Oh, obviously I have - the BBC are reporting that Dogshit Rishi is going to 'Stop councils implementing "15-minute cities", where essential amenities are always within a 15-minute walk'. WTF?
    The conspiracy is a pretty much Covid grifters looking for a new angle.

    Some of the 15 minute City plans involve restrictions on where you can drive. I think Oxford had it that you could drive through the centre of town a couple of hundred times a year, but after that you'd be fined. They wanted people going from one outer zone to another to use ring roads and avoid the centre to cut down congestion.

    The conspiracy is that this is a precursor to a "stay in your zone" plan. If we have everything within 15 minutes, they will then stop anyone leaving the zone at all, so the state knows where we are at all times.

    It's obviously bollocks, but so many people are down the rabbit hole already, that it's taken a real hold in the post-covid conspiracy theory community.

    It's embarrassing that the PM is latching onto it, as it's clearly a dog whistle for conspiracy theorists.
    I think you are describing an LTN, not a 15-minute neighbourhood.

    For example, modern housing developments are always LTNs, but very much NOT 15-minute neighbourhoods because the developers never invest in local GPs, dentists, pubs, schools, corner shops...

    They expect you to drive to the existing ones on the other side of town, rather undermining the whole point of their LTN development.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    edited September 2023
    AlsoLei said:

    darkage said:

    About 6 months ago I was having arguments with 'professionals' who sought to characterise all opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as 'conspiracy theorists' peddeling 'misinformation'. They tried to do the familiar thing where they characterise anyone they disagree with as being abusive with the idea that they should be shut down on the basis of hate speech. In this context it is quite interesting to now see opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as forming government policy. Some people just cannot come to terms with democracy.

    Er. As I understand it, a 15 minute city is one in which there's a GP surgery, a bus stop, a supermarket, and a pub or cafe within about 15 minutes walk - like a traditional British city. And not building American-style super suburbs without any element of commercial or retail mixed in.

    So... why would that be subject to conspiracy theories?

    Have I missed something obvious here?

    ETA: Oh, obviously I have - the BBC are reporting that Dogshit Rishi is going to 'Stop councils implementing "15-minute cities", where essential amenities are always within a 15-minute walk'. WTF?
    It's very much targeting the significant minority who don't think those on minimum wage ought to be able to afford pets, mental health care, Netflix, holidays, a decent smartphone or a night out a month.
    These amenities are for the likes of us not them.
    I found this polling the most eye opening there's been for a long while. It explains much. Scroll past the "people on benefits" bit. They've always been regarded like that. Look at the minimum wage figures.

    https://yougov.co.uk/society/articles/45956-what-should-living-standards-look-people-benefits-?redirect_from=/topics/society/articles-reports/2023/08/02/what-should-living-standards-look-people-benefits-
  • Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    IanB2 said:



    Certainly, anywhere within easy reach of London, Labour is able to mobilise a lot of resources. And there's truth that the LibDems find it difficult to campaign against both of the main parties at the same time, preferring to establish a two-party contest and then squeeze the support of the other main party, which I suspect is going to be difficult in mid Beds.

    The logic of your post, however, is that Labour may well not win - in which case their intervention would simply have saved the seat for the Tories - just as in Finchley at the GE.

    My perception, which I've been trying to avoid posting as it's so obviously partisan, is that the LibDems are the spoilers here, by making a major effort in a seat where they started clearly third. I really think that the LibDem habit of fighting every by-election on the basis of "only we can beat the Tories" is unpleasant and ultimately self-defeating (because it undermines their making the same claim in seats where they really ARE the only serious challenger). Describing Labour fighting hard where they're a clear second and the betting favourites as an "intervention" is just, well, partisan.
    Not sure of your logic here Nick.

    If LDs fight it and Lab don't it is a slam dunk LD win
    If Lab fight it and LDs don't it is a possible (just possible) Lab win

    Why are the LDs the spoilers? Why is it not that Lab are the spoilers?

    Seems to me that the same argument could be put to Labour and even more strongly as if it were a two way fight with the Tories the LDs would be more certain winners not Labour.
    Also Lib Dems were the favourites until recently when Labour upped their efforts.
    If the Tories retain Mid Beds, then the 2nd placed party could reasonably accuse the 3rd placed party of being spoilers.
    However, the real spoiler will have been FPTP, which the Lib Dems oppose and Labour (at least their leadership) support.
    So until Labour ditch FPTP they have no right to call any other party spoilers.

    My view on Mid Beds is that the result will not tell us very much because there aren't that many 3 way marginals and even fewer that have been involved in By Elections where Labour and the Lib Dems have both been going all out to win. Maybe Eastleigh 1994 and even more so Brecon & Radnor 1985.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    AlsoLei said:

    My comment on August 18th: "Here's a left-field idea to solve the parking app problem: have the government create a single national parking app."

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4510585#Comment_4510585
    It honestly wouldn't surprise me if a lot of ministers, wonks and special advisors scan the comments for inspiration or ideas.

    The 100-200 people who regularly post on here are an influential bunch.
    Your 53,000th post.

    Tory astroturfers were a feature of Cameron's days, and the great man himself is said to have lurked. A question for @rcs1000 is how many posters' IP addresses change during each party's conference, and then change back?
    This absurdly sentimental article about the felled Sycamore seems to have been lifted straight from the PB commentary

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-we-lost-with-the-fallen-sycamore/
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    I love the 9% who think those on minimum wage shouldn't be able to afford to get to work.
    Presumably the moral choice would be to stay at home? Grasping bastards.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    If the Tories are actually jumping the shark I think, perversely, that might be good for them

    Imagine Sunak waterskiing the Queensland coast, live, on tv, trying to jump a great white shark just after Bake Off

    He’d win the election by a mile. What could Starmer do to beat that? Ride a polar bear to Newent?
  • Thought experiment.

    You're one of Rishi's advisors, prepping him for a big conference interview.

    The question "why are you stopping councils planning Fifteen Minute Neighbourhoods? What's so awful about them?" comes up.

    What do you advise your boss to say?

    I haven't got a bloody clue.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,695
    kjh said:

    AlsoLei said:

    My comment on August 18th: "Here's a left-field idea to solve the parking app problem: have the government create a single national parking app."

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4510585#Comment_4510585
    It honestly wouldn't surprise me if a lot of ministers, wonks and special advisors scan the comments for inspiration or ideas.

    The 100-200 people who regularly post on here are an influential bunch.
    My god we could cause havoc by coming up with some batshit ideas. Oh wait....
    taxes on horses, taxes on horses
  • Leon said:

    If the Tories are actually jumping the shark I think, perversely, that might be good for them

    Imagine Sunak waterskiing the Queensland coast, live, on tv, trying to jump a great white shark just after Bake Off

    He’d win the election by a mile. What could Starmer do to beat that? Ride a polar bear to Newent?

    And if he fails, and the shark eats him, the Conservatives have a legitimate excuse to choose an alternative leader.

    Plan with no downside, only considerable upside.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,633
    dixiedean said:

    AlsoLei said:

    darkage said:

    About 6 months ago I was having arguments with 'professionals' who sought to characterise all opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as 'conspiracy theorists' peddeling 'misinformation'. They tried to do the familiar thing where they characterise anyone they disagree with as being abusive with the idea that they should be shut down on the basis of hate speech. In this context it is quite interesting to now see opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as forming government policy. Some people just cannot come to terms with democracy.

    Er. As I understand it, a 15 minute city is one in which there's a GP surgery, a bus stop, a supermarket, and a pub or cafe within about 15 minutes walk - like a traditional British city. And not building American-style super suburbs without any element of commercial or retail mixed in.

    So... why would that be subject to conspiracy theories?

    Have I missed something obvious here?

    ETA: Oh, obviously I have - the BBC are reporting that Dogshit Rishi is going to 'Stop councils implementing "15-minute cities", where essential amenities are always within a 15-minute walk'. WTF?
    It's very much targeting the significant minority who don't think those on minimum wage ought to be able to afford pets, mental health care, Netflix, holidays, a decent smartphone or a night out a month.
    These amenities are for the likes of us not them.
    I found this polling the most eye opening there's been for a long while. It explains much. Scroll past the "people on benefits" bit. They've always been regarded like that. Look at the minimum wage figures.

    https://yougov.co.uk/society/articles/45956-what-should-living-standards-look-people-benefits-?redirect_from=/topics/society/articles-reports/2023/08/02/what-should-living-standards-look-people-benefits-
    Are the 15% who think those on benefits should be able to afford private medical care those who think benefits should be much more generous, or extreme libertarians who think that the state shouldn't be involved in healthcare?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    edited September 2023

    Thought experiment.

    You're one of Rishi's advisors, prepping him for a big conference interview.

    The question "why are you stopping councils planning Fifteen Minute Neighbourhoods? What's so awful about them?" comes up.

    What do you advise your boss to say?

    I haven't got a bloody clue.

    Easy, he can (and will) just invent what they’re about and conflate them with LTNs.

    “Look, I’m a strong believer that you need to bring the community along with you, and there’s a lot of concern about restrictions being imposed on people in towns and villages without their consent. I want to stop that”

    “But what exactly is the problem with 15 minute neighbourhoods?”

    “Look, as I said I believe strongly that you need to consult with the community rather than just imposing restrictions on them…”

    Etc etc
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    AlsoLei said:

    My comment on August 18th: "Here's a left-field idea to solve the parking app problem: have the government create a single national parking app."

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4510585#Comment_4510585
    It honestly wouldn't surprise me if a lot of ministers, wonks and special advisors scan the comments for inspiration or ideas.

    The 100-200 people who regularly post on here are an influential bunch.
    It's not a great idea, though, as it would be better left to the market. Which is already rapidly consolidating.

    If government were serious about improving transport, then it would interest itself in doing something serious about EV charging infrastructure - which is a growing problem.

    Or integrating public transport rather than balkanising it.

    But they are not.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Thought experiment.

    You're one of Rishi's advisors, prepping him for a big conference interview.

    The question "why are you stopping councils planning Fifteen Minute Neighbourhoods? What's so awful about them?" comes up.

    What do you advise your boss to say?

    I haven't got a bloody clue.

    "Nothing, but the headline will appeal to bits of the electorate."
  • TimS said:

    Thought experiment.

    You're one of Rishi's advisors, prepping him for a big conference interview.

    The question "why are you stopping councils planning Fifteen Minute Neighbourhoods? What's so awful about them?" comes up.

    What do you advise your boss to say?

    I haven't got a bloody clue.

    Easy, he can (and will) just invent what they’re about and conflate them with LTNs.

    “Look, I’m a strong believer that you need to bring the community along with you, and there’s a lot of concern about restrictions being imposed on people in towns and villages without their consent. I want to stop that”

    “But what exactly is the problem with 15 minute neighbourhoods?”

    “Look, as I said I believe strongly that you need to consult with the community rather than just imposing restrictions on them…”

    Etc etc
    So, Prime Minister, how does having a school and a GP a short walk away impose restrictions on people?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,633
    Tres said:

    For Leon

    Am I the only one who has never heard of this tree, and really isn't bothered?
  • TimS said:

    Thought experiment.

    You're one of Rishi's advisors, prepping him for a big conference interview.

    The question "why are you stopping councils planning Fifteen Minute Neighbourhoods? What's so awful about them?" comes up.

    What do you advise your boss to say?

    I haven't got a bloody clue.

    Easy, he can (and will) just invent what they’re about and conflate them with LTNs.

    “Look, I’m a strong believer that you need to bring the community along with you, and there’s a lot of concern about restrictions being imposed on people in towns and villages without their consent. I want to stop that”

    “But what exactly is the problem with 15 minute neighbourhoods?”

    “Look, as I said I believe strongly that you need to consult with the community rather than just imposing restrictions on them…”

    Etc etc
    Surely it is still mandatory that hard working families appears in every phrase the PM utters, or have they u-turned on this too?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Leon said:

    If the Tories are actually jumping the shark I think, perversely, that might be good for them

    Imagine Sunak waterskiing the Queensland coast, live, on tv, trying to jump a great white shark just after Bake Off..

    That all sounds a bit Matt Hancock.

    What could Starmer do to beat that ?
    Ignore it ?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    edited September 2023

    TimS said:

    Thought experiment.

    You're one of Rishi's advisors, prepping him for a big conference interview.

    The question "why are you stopping councils planning Fifteen Minute Neighbourhoods? What's so awful about them?" comes up.

    What do you advise your boss to say?

    I haven't got a bloody clue.

    Easy, he can (and will) just invent what they’re about and conflate them with LTNs.

    “Look, I’m a strong believer that you need to bring the community along with you, and there’s a lot of concern about restrictions being imposed on people in towns and villages without their consent. I want to stop that”

    “But what exactly is the problem with 15 minute neighbourhoods?”

    “Look, as I said I believe strongly that you need to consult with the community rather than just imposing restrictions on them…”

    Etc etc
    So, Prime Minister, how does having a school and a GP a short walk away impose restrictions on people?
    “Look, the important thing is that we bring the community with us. I’m a strong believer in giving people a voice. Potholes. Bus lanes. 7 bins”

    EDIT: “strong believer in giving HARD WORKING FAMILIES a voice”
  • novanova Posts: 690

    Thought experiment.

    You're one of Rishi's advisors, prepping him for a big conference interview.

    The question "why are you stopping councils planning Fifteen Minute Neighbourhoods? What's so awful about them?" comes up.

    What do you advise your boss to say?

    I haven't got a bloody clue.

    He'll bring up congestion charges.

    There will be something about hard working Brits being fined, when all they want to do is drive to work, take their kids to football practice, or take their Grandma to hospital.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    Farooq said:

    kjh said:

    AlsoLei said:

    My comment on August 18th: "Here's a left-field idea to solve the parking app problem: have the government create a single national parking app."

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4510585#Comment_4510585
    It honestly wouldn't surprise me if a lot of ministers, wonks and special advisors scan the comments for inspiration or ideas.

    The 100-200 people who regularly post on here are an influential bunch.
    My god we could cause havoc by coming up with some batshit ideas. Oh wait....
    I've long had the feeling that Marina Hyde has lifted things from here to put in her columns. On one occasion even from me.
    Oh, missed that poster. Sure a comedown from halving inflation, stopping the boats and all. But bus lanes? How do we know they're not in use? Till the bus comes along and then gets stuck in the traffic? In which case the lane is no longer in use by a bus?
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    edited September 2023
    nova said:

    AlsoLei said:

    darkage said:

    About 6 months ago I was having arguments with 'professionals' who sought to characterise all opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as 'conspiracy theorists' peddeling 'misinformation'. They tried to do the familiar thing where they characterise anyone they disagree with as being abusive with the idea that they should be shut down on the basis of hate speech. In this context it is quite interesting to now see opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as forming government policy. Some people just cannot come to terms with democracy.

    Er. As I understand it, a 15 minute city is one in which there's a GP surgery, a bus stop, a supermarket, and a pub or cafe within about 15 minutes walk - like a traditional British city. And not building American-style super suburbs without any element of commercial or retail mixed in.

    So... why would that be subject to conspiracy theories?

    Have I missed something obvious here?

    ETA: Oh, obviously I have - the BBC are reporting that Dogshit Rishi is going to 'Stop councils implementing "15-minute cities", where essential amenities are always within a 15-minute walk'. WTF?
    The conspiracy is a pretty much Covid grifters looking for a new angle.

    Some of the 15 minute City plans involve restrictions on where you can drive. I think Oxford had it that you could drive through the centre of town a couple of hundred times a year, but after that you'd be fined. They wanted people going from one outer zone to another to use ring roads and avoid the centre to cut down congestion.

    The conspiracy is that this is a precursor to a "stay in your zone" plan. If we have everything within 15 minutes, they will then stop anyone leaving the zone at all, so the state knows where we are at all times.

    It's obviously bollocks, but so many people are down the rabbit hole already, that it's taken a real hold in the post-covid conspiracy theory community.

    It's embarrassing that the PM is latching onto it, as it's clearly a dog whistle for conspiracy theorists.
    This is a fair summary.
    The problem is that the 'this is the thin end of the wedge' criticism is both a) a conspiracy theory AND b) not entirely without merit.
    If you set off the principle of having cameras recording all traffic movements and only permitting X amount per year, then it isn't too difficult to start changing the rules once the system is in place, using whatever justification you want to come up with.
    This is quite a fundamental problem and it is unwise to dismiss it as 'conspiracy theory nonsense'.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Thought experiment.

    You're one of Rishi's advisors, prepping him for a big conference interview.

    The question "why are you stopping councils planning Fifteen Minute Neighbourhoods? What's so awful about them?" comes up.

    What do you advise your boss to say?

    I haven't got a bloody clue.

    Easy, he can (and will) just invent what they’re about and conflate them with LTNs.

    “Look, I’m a strong believer that you need to bring the community along with you, and there’s a lot of concern about restrictions being imposed on people in towns and villages without their consent. I want to stop that”

    “But what exactly is the problem with 15 minute neighbourhoods?”

    “Look, as I said I believe strongly that you need to consult with the community rather than just imposing restrictions on them…”

    Etc etc
    So, Prime Minister, how does having a school and a GP a short walk away impose restrictions on people?
    “Look, the important thing is that we bring the community with us. I’m a strong believer in giving people a voice. Potholes. Bus lanes. 7 bins”

    EDIT: “strong believer in giving HARD WORKING FAMILIES a voice”
    Us lazy people with lazy families deserve a voice too!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    For Leon

    Am I the only one who has never heard of this tree, and really isn't bothered?
    A reasonable question, but if someone came and bulldozed, say, New Walk in Leicester, how would you feel? I was really taken with the Walk, and I'm sure the locals would be very upset.

    Also the tree symbolises happy outings for so very many folk - such as a holiday Mrs C and I spent staying very near it and roaming the wall.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Thought experiment.

    You're one of Rishi's advisors, prepping him for a big conference interview.

    The question "why are you stopping councils planning Fifteen Minute Neighbourhoods? What's so awful about them?" comes up.

    What do you advise your boss to say?

    I haven't got a bloody clue.

    Easy, he can (and will) just invent what they’re about and conflate them with LTNs.

    “Look, I’m a strong believer that you need to bring the community along with you, and there’s a lot of concern about restrictions being imposed on people in towns and villages without their consent. I want to stop that”

    “But what exactly is the problem with 15 minute neighbourhoods?”

    “Look, as I said I believe strongly that you need to consult with the community rather than just imposing restrictions on them…”

    Etc etc
    So, Prime Minister, how does having a school and a GP a short walk away impose restrictions on people?
    “Look, the important thing is that we bring the community with us. I’m a strong believer in giving people a voice. Potholes. Bus lanes. 7 bins”

    EDIT: “strong believer in giving HARD WORKING FAMILIES a voice”
    Us lazy people with lazy families deserve a voice too!
    Plus the Tories seem to be much more interested in pensioners anyway, who by definition don't "work"*. He'd need to do something like merging NI and income tax to be taken at all seriously.

    * I know, and you know, about the quantity of voluntary work, caring for children and other family members, etc. they do. But this isn't what Mr Sunak would mean by "hard-working" (I assume).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    edited September 2023
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Thought experiment.

    You're one of Rishi's advisors, prepping him for a big conference interview.

    The question "why are you stopping councils planning Fifteen Minute Neighbourhoods? What's so awful about them?" comes up.

    What do you advise your boss to say?

    I haven't got a bloody clue.

    Easy, he can (and will) just invent what they’re about and conflate them with LTNs.

    “Look, I’m a strong believer that you need to bring the community along with you, and there’s a lot of concern about restrictions being imposed on people in towns and villages without their consent. I want to stop that”

    “But what exactly is the problem with 15 minute neighbourhoods?”

    “Look, as I said I believe strongly that you need to consult with the community rather than just imposing restrictions on them…”

    Etc etc
    So, Prime Minister, how does having a school and a GP a short walk away impose restrictions on people?
    “Look, the important thing is that we bring the community with us. I’m a strong believer in giving people a voice. Potholes. Bus lanes. 7 bins”

    EDIT: “strong believer in giving HARD WORKING FAMILIES a voice”
    HS2: the great British train robbery
    How a 180km ‘railway to nowhere’ came to symbolize British decline.
    https://www.politico.eu/article/united-kingdom-train-hs2-costs-rishi-sunak-david-cameron-keir-starmer/
  • TimS said:

    AlsoLei said:

    AlsoLei said:

    darkage said:

    About 6 months ago I was having arguments with 'professionals' who sought to characterise all opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as 'conspiracy theorists' peddeling 'misinformation'. They tried to do the familiar thing where they characterise anyone they disagree with as being abusive with the idea that they should be shut down on the basis of hate speech. In this context it is quite interesting to now see opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as forming government policy. Some people just cannot come to terms with democracy.

    Er. As I understand it, a 15 minute city is one in which there's a GP surgery, a bus stop, a supermarket, and a pub or cafe within about 15 minutes walk - like a traditional British city. And not building American-style super suburbs without any element of commercial or retail mixed in.

    So... why would that be subject to conspiracy theories?

    Have I missed something obvious here?

    ETA: Oh, obviously I have - the BBC are reporting that Dogshit Rishi is going to 'Stop councils implementing "15-minute cities", where essential amenities are always within a 15-minute walk'. WTF?
    I mean, where I live, all of those things are less than 15 mins away right now. Is Sunak going to stand outside my house and force me to walk round the block twice before I'm allowed to go to Sainsburys?
    I’m walking to Tesco express as we speak. We must stop this madness and get me back in the car, speeding to Sydenham big Sainsburys at well over 20mph, ignoring the dastardly camera that snapped me last weekend.
    Brockley is absolutely chocka this afternoon anyway, walking is probably quicker than driving.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    edited September 2023
    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    For Leon

    Am I the only one who has never heard of this tree, and really isn't bothered?
    It's a bit sad but not the end of the world, it is really a local issue though. There is a significant crossover between the people that go on about the climate emergency and those who are distraught by the loss of this tree, they struggle to get things in perspective.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Restaurant owner in UK ‘lost for words’ after digger rams into historic building
    Harriet Bolland offers reward and Nottinghamshire police appeal for information over incident at Grade II-listed Mucky Duck
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/30/mucky-duck-restaurant-digger-nottinghamshire-police
    ...Police said the heavy-duty construction vehicle was stolen from Town Street in nearby Clayworth before being used to drive over a pub bench.

    The driver then drove into the 18th-century restaurant six times in four different places, leaving a hole in the side of the building.

    “We have thought about how and why somebody would do this and it just seems that they were desperate to get us shut down. There’s no other explanation for it,” Bolland said...

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Please join us for drinks. Manta beach



  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,058
    Serbs are building up troops along the Kosovo border.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/29/kosovo-serbian-troops-buildup-us-uk
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148
    edited September 2023
    Eabhal said:

    nova said:

    AlsoLei said:

    darkage said:

    About 6 months ago I was having arguments with 'professionals' who sought to characterise all opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as 'conspiracy theorists' peddeling 'misinformation'. They tried to do the familiar thing where they characterise anyone they disagree with as being abusive with the idea that they should be shut down on the basis of hate speech. In this context it is quite interesting to now see opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as forming government policy. Some people just cannot come to terms with democracy.

    Er. As I understand it, a 15 minute city is one in which there's a GP surgery, a bus stop, a supermarket, and a pub or cafe within about 15 minutes walk - like a traditional British city. And not building American-style super suburbs without any element of commercial or retail mixed in.

    So... why would that be subject to conspiracy theories?

    Have I missed something obvious here?

    ETA: Oh, obviously I have - the BBC are reporting that Dogshit Rishi is going to 'Stop councils implementing "15-minute cities", where essential amenities are always within a 15-minute walk'. WTF?
    The conspiracy is a pretty much Covid grifters looking for a new angle.

    Some of the 15 minute City plans involve restrictions on where you can drive. I think Oxford had it that you could drive through the centre of town a couple of hundred times a year, but after that you'd be fined. They wanted people going from one outer zone to another to use ring roads and avoid the centre to cut down congestion.

    The conspiracy is that this is a precursor to a "stay in your zone" plan. If we have everything within 15 minutes, they will then stop anyone leaving the zone at all, so the state knows where we are at all times.

    It's obviously bollocks, but so many people are down the rabbit hole already, that it's taken a real hold in the post-covid conspiracy theory community.

    It's embarrassing that the PM is latching onto it, as it's clearly a dog whistle for conspiracy theorists.
    I think you are describing an LTN, not a 15-minute neighbourhood.

    For example, modern housing developments are always LTNs, but very much NOT 15-minute neighbourhoods because the developers never invest in local GPs, dentists, pubs, schools, corner shops...
    IMO that's not true.

    Just looking at one of our smallish local developments which has got PP recently:

    "... more than £850,000 in developer contributions – including £481,114 for primary school places – will be provided to shore up local services"
    ...
    “Countryside Properties will be making contributions towards primary school education, open space, healthcare, libraries and improvements to footpaths.

    https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/nottingham-news/110-new-homes-built-sutton-5688170

    Interesting from Zadrozny, in a huff:
    Cllr Zadrozny, the leader of the council, said: “I can promise in future that developers won’t get a greased sausage through my planning committee without building a better relationship [with the council].
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,633
    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    For Leon

    Am I the only one who has never heard of this tree, and really isn't bothered?
    A reasonable question, but if someone came and bulldozed, say, New Walk in Leicester, how would you feel? I was really taken with the Walk, and I'm sure the locals would be very upset.

    Also the tree symbolises happy outings for so very many folk - such as a holiday Mrs C and I spent staying very near it and roaming the wall.
    But little concern is expressed here over other trees, including those planned for the chop for HS2, also centuries old.

    I suppose it is symbolic of how much of a decline we are in in some obscure way.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    darkage said:

    nova said:

    AlsoLei said:

    darkage said:

    About 6 months ago I was having arguments with 'professionals' who sought to characterise all opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as 'conspiracy theorists' peddeling 'misinformation'. They tried to do the familiar thing where they characterise anyone they disagree with as being abusive with the idea that they should be shut down on the basis of hate speech. In this context it is quite interesting to now see opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as forming government policy. Some people just cannot come to terms with democracy.

    Er. As I understand it, a 15 minute city is one in which there's a GP surgery, a bus stop, a supermarket, and a pub or cafe within about 15 minutes walk - like a traditional British city. And not building American-style super suburbs without any element of commercial or retail mixed in.

    So... why would that be subject to conspiracy theories?

    Have I missed something obvious here?

    ETA: Oh, obviously I have - the BBC are reporting that Dogshit Rishi is going to 'Stop councils implementing "15-minute cities", where essential amenities are always within a 15-minute walk'. WTF?
    The conspiracy is a pretty much Covid grifters looking for a new angle.

    Some of the 15 minute City plans involve restrictions on where you can drive. I think Oxford had it that you could drive through the centre of town a couple of hundred times a year, but after that you'd be fined. They wanted people going from one outer zone to another to use ring roads and avoid the centre to cut down congestion.

    The conspiracy is that this is a precursor to a "stay in your zone" plan. If we have everything within 15 minutes, they will then stop anyone leaving the zone at all, so the state knows where we are at all times.

    It's obviously bollocks, but so many people are down the rabbit hole already, that it's taken a real hold in the post-covid conspiracy theory community.

    It's embarrassing that the PM is latching onto it, as it's clearly a dog whistle for conspiracy theorists.
    This is a fair summary.
    The problem is that the 'this is the thin end of the wedge' criticism is both a) a conspiracy theory AND b) not entirely without merit.
    If you set off the principle of having cameras recording all traffic movements and only permitting X amount per year, then it isn't too difficult to start changing the rules once the system is in place, using whatever justification you want to come up with.
    This is quite a fundamental problem and it is unwise to dismiss it as 'conspiracy theory nonsense'.
    Although the logical extension of that would be no traffic cameras whatsoever. And a ban on CCTV.
    After all. Where will it end?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,633
    Leon said:

    Please join us for drinks. Manta beach



    Why not meet on Meta?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    nova said:

    AlsoLei said:

    darkage said:

    About 6 months ago I was having arguments with 'professionals' who sought to characterise all opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as 'conspiracy theorists' peddeling 'misinformation'. They tried to do the familiar thing where they characterise anyone they disagree with as being abusive with the idea that they should be shut down on the basis of hate speech. In this context it is quite interesting to now see opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as forming government policy. Some people just cannot come to terms with democracy.

    Er. As I understand it, a 15 minute city is one in which there's a GP surgery, a bus stop, a supermarket, and a pub or cafe within about 15 minutes walk - like a traditional British city. And not building American-style super suburbs without any element of commercial or retail mixed in.

    So... why would that be subject to conspiracy theories?

    Have I missed something obvious here?

    ETA: Oh, obviously I have - the BBC are reporting that Dogshit Rishi is going to 'Stop councils implementing "15-minute cities", where essential amenities are always within a 15-minute walk'. WTF?
    The conspiracy is a pretty much Covid grifters looking for a new angle.

    Some of the 15 minute City plans involve restrictions on where you can drive. I think Oxford had it that you could drive through the centre of town a couple of hundred times a year, but after that you'd be fined. They wanted people going from one outer zone to another to use ring roads and avoid the centre to cut down congestion.

    The conspiracy is that this is a precursor to a "stay in your zone" plan. If we have everything within 15 minutes, they will then stop anyone leaving the zone at all, so the state knows where we are at all times.

    It's obviously bollocks, but so many people are down the rabbit hole already, that it's taken a real hold in the post-covid conspiracy theory community.

    It's embarrassing that the PM is latching onto it, as it's clearly a dog whistle for conspiracy theorists.
    I think you are describing an LTN, not a 15-minute neighbourhood.

    For example, modern housing developments are always LTNs, but very much NOT 15-minute neighbourhoods because the developers never invest in local GPs, dentists, pubs, schools, corner shops...
    IMO that's not true.

    Just looking at one of our smallish local developments which has got PP recently:

    "... more than £850,000 in developer contributions – including £481,114 for primary school places – will be provided to shore up local services"
    ...
    “Countryside Properties will be making contributions towards primary school education, open space, healthcare, libraries and improvements to footpaths.

    https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/nottingham-news/110-new-homes-built-sutton-5688170

    Interesting from Zadrozny, in a huff:
    Cllr Zadrozny, the leader of the council, said: “I can promise in future that developers won’t get a greased sausage through my planning committee without building a better relationship [with the council].
    Ah fair enough. Well done that council.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    nova said:

    AlsoLei said:

    darkage said:

    About 6 months ago I was having arguments with 'professionals' who sought to characterise all opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as 'conspiracy theorists' peddeling 'misinformation'. They tried to do the familiar thing where they characterise anyone they disagree with as being abusive with the idea that they should be shut down on the basis of hate speech. In this context it is quite interesting to now see opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as forming government policy. Some people just cannot come to terms with democracy.

    Er. As I understand it, a 15 minute city is one in which there's a GP surgery, a bus stop, a supermarket, and a pub or cafe within about 15 minutes walk - like a traditional British city. And not building American-style super suburbs without any element of commercial or retail mixed in.

    So... why would that be subject to conspiracy theories?

    Have I missed something obvious here?

    ETA: Oh, obviously I have - the BBC are reporting that Dogshit Rishi is going to 'Stop councils implementing "15-minute cities", where essential amenities are always within a 15-minute walk'. WTF?
    The conspiracy is a pretty much Covid grifters looking for a new angle.

    Some of the 15 minute City plans involve restrictions on where you can drive. I think Oxford had it that you could drive through the centre of town a couple of hundred times a year, but after that you'd be fined. They wanted people going from one outer zone to another to use ring roads and avoid the centre to cut down congestion.

    The conspiracy is that this is a precursor to a "stay in your zone" plan. If we have everything within 15 minutes, they will then stop anyone leaving the zone at all, so the state knows where we are at all times.

    It's obviously bollocks, but so many people are down the rabbit hole already, that it's taken a real hold in the post-covid conspiracy theory community.

    It's embarrassing that the PM is latching onto it, as it's clearly a dog whistle for conspiracy theorists.
    I think you are describing an LTN, not a 15-minute neighbourhood.

    For example, modern housing developments are always LTNs, but very much NOT 15-minute neighbourhoods because the developers never invest in local GPs, dentists, pubs, schools, corner shops...
    IMO that's not true.

    Just looking at one of our smallish local developments which has got PP recently:

    "... more than £850,000 in developer contributions – including £481,114 for primary school places – will be provided to shore up local services"
    ...
    “Countryside Properties will be making contributions towards primary school education, open space, healthcare, libraries and improvements to footpaths.

    https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/nottingham-news/110-new-homes-built-sutton-5688170

    Interesting from Zadrozny, in a huff:
    Cllr Zadrozny, the leader of the council, said: “I can promise in future that developers won’t get a greased sausage through my planning committee without building a better relationship [with the council].
    When do they make the developer contributions, though? Not yet in the council's account.
  • darkage said:

    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    For Leon

    Am I the only one who has never heard of this tree, and really isn't bothered?
    It's a bit sad but not the end of the world, it is really a local issue though. There is a significant crossover between the people that go on about the climate emergency and those who are distraught by the loss of this tree, they struggle to get things in perspective.
    Not really. I am the last one to go on about the climate emergency but I am very sad about this tree. It was, without exaggeration, one of the most photographed trees in the country and anyone who knew anything about Hadrian's Wall knew about this tree. The fact that you and Foxy had never heard of it says far more about you than it does about the tree. Itis also symptomatic of the sort of acts of pointless vandalism that go on day in and day out and make life miserable for others (see Nigelb's posting a few minutes ago for another example)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    edited September 2023
    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    For Leon

    Am I the only one who has never heard of this tree, and really isn't bothered?
    A reasonable question, but if someone came and bulldozed, say, New Walk in Leicester, how would you feel? I was really taken with the Walk, and I'm sure the locals would be very upset.

    Also the tree symbolises happy outings for so very many folk - such as a holiday Mrs C and I spent staying very near it and roaming the wall.
    But little concern is expressed here over other trees, including those planned for the chop for HS2, also centuries old.

    I suppose it is symbolic of how much of a decline we are in in some obscure way.
    Point taken.

    We were, to be fair, discussing ancient woodlands the other day, and how ancient woodlands can't be restored by planting however many saplings [edit] in new made ground.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148
    Eabhal said:

    AlsoLei said:

    darkage said:

    About 6 months ago I was having arguments with 'professionals' who sought to characterise all opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as 'conspiracy theorists' peddeling 'misinformation'. They tried to do the familiar thing where they characterise anyone they disagree with as being abusive with the idea that they should be shut down on the basis of hate speech. In this context it is quite interesting to now see opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as forming government policy. Some people just cannot come to terms with democracy.

    Er. As I understand it, a 15 minute city is one in which there's a GP surgery, a bus stop, a supermarket, and a pub or cafe within about 15 minutes walk - like a traditional British city. And not building American-style super suburbs without any element of commercial or retail mixed in.

    So... why would that be subject to conspiracy theories?

    Have I missed something obvious here?

    ETA: Oh, obviously I have - the BBC are reporting that Dogshit Rishi is going to 'Stop councils implementing "15-minute cities", where essential amenities are always within a 15-minute walk'. WTF?
    Given the history of planners designing communities, to get away from (and destroy existing examples of) the kind of “village life” that this describes….

    7,000 pubs gone in the last decade. This attack on walking must be the final nail in the coffin for this great British institution.
    It will perhaps be the final nail for this Government.
  • This just doesn't seem very smart ...

    Somehow it's now official Government policy to stop my Council making sure I have a GP, dentist and shop too close to my home.

    https://twitter.com/__BP__/status/1708056836505518442
  • novanova Posts: 690
    darkage said:

    nova said:

    AlsoLei said:

    darkage said:

    About 6 months ago I was having arguments with 'professionals' who sought to characterise all opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as 'conspiracy theorists' peddeling 'misinformation'. They tried to do the familiar thing where they characterise anyone they disagree with as being abusive with the idea that they should be shut down on the basis of hate speech. In this context it is quite interesting to now see opposition to 15 minute neighbourhoods as forming government policy. Some people just cannot come to terms with democracy.

    Er. As I understand it, a 15 minute city is one in which there's a GP surgery, a bus stop, a supermarket, and a pub or cafe within about 15 minutes walk - like a traditional British city. And not building American-style super suburbs without any element of commercial or retail mixed in.

    So... why would that be subject to conspiracy theories?

    Have I missed something obvious here?

    ETA: Oh, obviously I have - the BBC are reporting that Dogshit Rishi is going to 'Stop councils implementing "15-minute cities", where essential amenities are always within a 15-minute walk'. WTF?
    The conspiracy is a pretty much Covid grifters looking for a new angle.

    Some of the 15 minute City plans involve restrictions on where you can drive. I think Oxford had it that you could drive through the centre of town a couple of hundred times a year, but after that you'd be fined. They wanted people going from one outer zone to another to use ring roads and avoid the centre to cut down congestion.

    The conspiracy is that this is a precursor to a "stay in your zone" plan. If we have everything within 15 minutes, they will then stop anyone leaving the zone at all, so the state knows where we are at all times.

    It's obviously bollocks, but so many people are down the rabbit hole already, that it's taken a real hold in the post-covid conspiracy theory community.

    It's embarrassing that the PM is latching onto it, as it's clearly a dog whistle for conspiracy theorists.
    This is a fair summary.
    The problem is that the 'this is the thin end of the wedge' criticism is both a) a conspiracy theory AND b) not entirely without merit.
    If you set off the principle of having cameras recording all traffic movements and only permitting X amount per year, then it isn't too difficult to start changing the rules once the system is in place, using whatever justification you want to come up with.
    This is quite a fundamental problem and it is unwise to dismiss it as 'conspiracy theory nonsense'.
    Oh, but it is 'conspiracy theory nonsense'.

    The jump from trying to cut down on congestion in a city like Oxford, to saying you won't be able to leave your neighbourhood to travel to other cities, or even other parts of Oxford, is frankly ridiculous.

    What on earth would be the end game? Congestion and pollution in city centres is an obvious issue that we've been aware of for many years. Beyond the pandemic, I can't even think of a reason why the state would want to stop people moving from one city to another, and there's no indication that society is heading that way.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Leon said:

    Please join us for drinks. Manta beach


    Some of your recent trips do bring to mind this.
    https://m.imdb.com/title/tt9764362/?ref_=nm_flmg_t_6_act
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    For Leon

    Am I the only one who has never heard of this tree, and really isn't bothered?
    A reasonable question, but if someone came and bulldozed, say, New Walk in Leicester, how would you feel? I was really taken with the Walk, and I'm sure the locals would be very upset.

    Also the tree symbolises happy outings for so very many folk - such as a holiday Mrs C and I spent staying very near it and roaming the wall.
    Quite. I mean, what would the people of Leicester feel if some vandals came along and dug up Richard III and carted him off to some random church round the corner?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    For Leon

    Am I the only one who has never heard of this tree, and really isn't bothered?
    A reasonable question, but if someone came and bulldozed, say, New Walk in Leicester, how would you feel? I was really taken with the Walk, and I'm sure the locals would be very upset.

    Also the tree symbolises happy outings for so very many folk - such as a holiday Mrs C and I spent staying very near it and roaming the wall.
    But little concern is expressed here over other trees, including those planned for the chop for HS2, also centuries old.

    I suppose it is symbolic of how much of a decline we are in in some obscure way.
    There is a reason for cutting those trees down though. And it's a deep regret for many people who support HS2, including me.

    The Sycamore was an act of pointless vandalism, designed to harm those who loved it. The tree itself had no real ecological value whatsoever, in the same way that the roof of Westminster Hall could be cheaply replaced.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    edited September 2023
    algarkirk said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    For Leon

    Am I the only one who has never heard of this tree, and really isn't bothered?
    A reasonable question, but if someone came and bulldozed, say, New Walk in Leicester, how would you feel? I was really taken with the Walk, and I'm sure the locals would be very upset.

    Also the tree symbolises happy outings for so very many folk - such as a holiday Mrs C and I spent staying very near it and roaming the wall.
    Quite. I mean, what would the people of Leicester feel if some vandals came along and dug up Richard III and carted him off to some random church round the corner?
    Mind, nobody knew he was there. The same very much cannot be said for New Walk!

    Edit: and it's not as if they dumped him in the canal. Or, still worse, in Nottingham.
This discussion has been closed.