Sunak is terrible. Just awful. His new blokey speech is irritating but it's his contempt for people, utter failure to answer a simple question, hopeless out of touch cluelessness.
Why am I wasting my breath on the clown? Because unfortunately he's Britain's unelected Prime Minister.
Meanwhile Labour lead is 21% in today's YouGov.
Can't we just get this over and done with?
Most people in the real world are getting on with their lives.
Most people in the real world are moaning about it, and him
Not sure what real world you occupy but my real world experience is people are just getting on with their lives.
I think I can offer a synthesis to your dialectical discussion here: people are just getting on with their lives, and when prompted about their thoughts on the PM are probably moaning. I do a lot of moaning about all sorts of things while getting on with my life. In fact a good moan to a sympathetic audience is one of the things that makes life worth living.
People moan about the PM, when prompted, whoever it is. I just don’t get the level of visceral anger that Heathener claims there is. If people had a strong bias against then they’d rant unprompted.
I agree most don't have visceral anger towards Sunak, in the way they did towards True, and Johnson boards the end.
But nor do I hear any enthusiasm for him. And he needed enthusiasm to have any hope of turning Tory fortunes around.
Not all these trees will survive (half a million newly-planted trees died during the A14 upgrade), but it is, apparently, cheaper to replace saplings that have died rather than to give them care - and given the numbers, that may make sense.
Destroyed ancient woodland. Planted saplings.
The amount of hysteria and falsehoods over HS2 and 'ancient' woodland is quite sad.
People have been telling fibs about HS2's impact on ancient woodland from the start.
The biggest increase in projected cost for the line came from changing the Chiltern tunnel from cheap(-ish) cut & cover through farmland to a slightly longer deep tunnel. This was ostensibly to protect Farthing Wood, 12 ha of "ancient woodland".
...except, er, Farthing Wood is actually ancient replanted woodland, with much of the replanting having been done in the 20th century. The bulk of the trees are non-native, with the most common being Corsican pine.
It's still better to not cut down mature trees if it's at all reasonable to avoid doing so, but these sort of antics are the reason we can't get anything done in this country.
Most "ancient woodland" in the UK has not been there since Treebeard's time. It's of varying age.
Nor is it true that you can't replace such ancient woodland - it will just take a long long time.
Erm, not quite right on ther last point: it also needs the right species mix, including crucially the interdependent species (insects, birds, root mycorrhizal symbiotic fungi, etc. etc.) Where are they going to be between times?
When Amazonian cloud forest is cut down, farmed for a few years, then abandoned as it rapidly becomes unproductive, you do not get a like-for-like replacement growing in its place. You get a much reduced, degraded, version of what you had before with nothing like the same richness of species.
They may take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom to commit box junction infringements without being subject to a fixed penalty notice.
Sunak is not a natural at selling policy, and I think if he keeps doing motorist related stuff it's going to seem blatantly political to most observers. An absurd overreaction to Uxbridge.
He risks stirring up memories of him not knowing how to pay for petrol, back when he was Chancellor...
Not all these trees will survive (half a million newly-planted trees died during the A14 upgrade), but it is, apparently, cheaper to replace saplings that have died rather than to give them care - and given the numbers, that may make sense.
Destroyed ancient woodland. Planted saplings.
The amount of hysteria and falsehoods over HS2 and 'ancient' woodland is quite sad.
People have been telling fibs about HS2's impact on ancient woodland from the start.
The biggest increase in projected cost for the line came from changing the Chiltern tunnel from cheap(-ish) cut & cover through farmland to a slightly longer deep tunnel. This was ostensibly to protect Farthing Wood, 12 ha of "ancient woodland".
...except, er, Farthing Wood is actually ancient replanted woodland, with much of the replanting having been done in the 20th century. The bulk of the trees are non-native, with the most common being Corsican pine.
It's still better to not cut down mature trees if it's at all reasonable to avoid doing so, but these sort of antics are the reason we can't get anything done in this country.
Most "ancient woodland" in the UK has not been there since Treebeard's time. It's of varying age.
Nor is it true that you can't replace such ancient woodland - it will just take a long long time.
Erm, not quite right on ther last point: it also needs the right species mix, including crucially the interdependent species (insects, birds, root mycorrhizal symbiotic fungi, etc. etc.) Where are they going to be between times?
You are going to need to introduce them at the right point. I didn’t say it was quick or easy.
That sycamore probably screamed across the Northumbrian wilds, as it fell to its death. We just couldn't hear it
Think about that
Not a nice thought but I think we can reject it. If trees felt pain they would have evolved to be able to defend themselves against it, eg by fleeing an attacker. This would happened by now, given how long they've been around, but it hasn't. Ergo they don't suffer, in that sense, so this one wouldn't have. It's perhaps the only silver lining in this sad dark cloud of a story.
Not all these trees will survive (half a million newly-planted trees died during the A14 upgrade), but it is, apparently, cheaper to replace saplings that have died rather than to give them care - and given the numbers, that may make sense.
Destroyed ancient woodland. Planted saplings.
The amount of hysteria and falsehoods over HS2 and 'ancient' woodland is quite sad.
People have been telling fibs about HS2's impact on ancient woodland from the start.
The biggest increase in projected cost for the line came from changing the Chiltern tunnel from cheap(-ish) cut & cover through farmland to a slightly longer deep tunnel. This was ostensibly to protect Farthing Wood, 12 ha of "ancient woodland".
...except, er, Farthing Wood is actually ancient replanted woodland, with much of the replanting having been done in the 20th century. The bulk of the trees are non-native, with the most common being Corsican pine.
It's still better to not cut down mature trees if it's at all reasonable to avoid doing so, but these sort of antics are the reason we can't get anything done in this country.
Most "ancient woodland" in the UK has not been there since Treebeard's time. It's of varying age.
Nor is it true that you can't replace such ancient woodland - it will just take a long long time.
Erm, not quite right on ther last point: it also needs the right species mix, including crucially the interdependent species (insects, birds, root mycorrhizal symbiotic fungi, etc. etc.) Where are they going to be between times?
When Amazonian cloud forest is cut down, farmed for a few years, then abandoned as it rapidly becomes unproductive, you do not get a like-for-like replacement growing in its place. You get a much reduced, degraded, version of what you had before with nothing like the same richness of species.
Then again, there’s some evidence that chunks of the Amazon are grow back into the fields of ancient cultures.
Not all these trees will survive (half a million newly-planted trees died during the A14 upgrade), but it is, apparently, cheaper to replace saplings that have died rather than to give them care - and given the numbers, that may make sense.
Destroyed ancient woodland. Planted saplings.
The amount of hysteria and falsehoods over HS2 and 'ancient' woodland is quite sad.
People have been telling fibs about HS2's impact on ancient woodland from the start.
The biggest increase in projected cost for the line came from changing the Chiltern tunnel from cheap(-ish) cut & cover through farmland to a slightly longer deep tunnel. This was ostensibly to protect Farthing Wood, 12 ha of "ancient woodland".
...except, er, Farthing Wood is actually ancient replanted woodland, with much of the replanting having been done in the 20th century. The bulk of the trees are non-native, with the most common being Corsican pine.
It's still better to not cut down mature trees if it's at all reasonable to avoid doing so, but these sort of antics are the reason we can't get anything done in this country.
Most "ancient woodland" in the UK has not been there since Treebeard's time. It's of varying age.
Nor is it true that you can't replace such ancient woodland - it will just take a long long time.
Erm, not quite right on ther last point: it also needs the right species mix, including crucially the interdependent species (insects, birds, root mycorrhizal symbiotic fungi, etc. etc.) Where are they going to be between times?
When Amazonian cloud forest is cut down, farmed for a few years, then abandoned as it rapidly becomes unproductive, you do not get a like-for-like replacement growing in its place. You get a much reduced, degraded, version of what you had before with nothing like the same richness of species.
They may take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom to commit box junction infringements without being subject to a fixed penalty notice.
Sunak is not a natural at selling policy, and I think if he keeps doing motorist related stuff it's going to seem blatantly political to most observers. An absurd overreaction to Uxbridge.
I keep saying it but the problem is he doesn’t do vision. Why is he there, what does he want to accomplish (beyond staying there)? I’m not entirely sure he knows, and this is why his comms are so poor.
This is something Starmer is going to have to grapple with in time, too.
That sycamore probably screamed across the Northumbrian wilds, as it fell to its death. We just couldn't hear it
Think about that
Don't kill plants - eat meat instead.
More seriously, I feel infinitely more sympathy for the poor fifteen year old girl who was murdered yesterday, and her friends and family, than any tree.
That sycamore probably screamed across the Northumbrian wilds, as it fell to its death. We just couldn't hear it
Think about that
Don't kill plants - eat meat instead.
More seriously, I feel infinitely more sympathy for the poor fifteen year old girl who was murdered yesterday, and her friends and family, than any tree.
I guess it never occurred to Sunak that one of the reasons so many people in the North use their cars to get around is because public transport in most places is so shite. Still, Get Potholes Done.
You've cause and effect the entirely the wrong way round here. Up north the road system mostly works, so almost everybody just drives, because it's the most convenient option. They could build a high speed rail line from next doors garden to outside the gate of work with trains every ten minutes and give me the tickets for free, and I'd probably still mostly drive to work - the train won't be much faster, the car is better for carrying luggage (I've a lot of tools in the boot that come in handy now and again), and crucially I'm not at the mercy of the rail network if something goes wrong and there's no train home for whatever reason. Because there's little demand, such public transport service as there is tends to be grim. There's no easy cure for this - we could spray subsidies everywhere (bearing in mind it's most quite heavily subsidised anyway), but then we'd have lots of shinny new public transport that nobody uses either.
Down in the SE the road network doesn't really work because there are too many people and not enough roads for them, so they are forced onto public transport. This isn't a sign that the public transport network of the south is a success story to be imposed on the north. It's more another sign that the south is a stinking dump.
That sycamore probably screamed across the Northumbrian wilds, as it fell to its death. We just couldn't hear it
Think about that
Don't kill plants - eat meat instead.
More seriously, I feel infinitely more sympathy for the poor fifteen year old girl who was murdered yesterday, and her friends and family, than any tree.
Pretty sure the tree-fellers can be done under this section of the law on Criminal Damage
"Heritage crime is defined as any crime or behaviour that harms the value of England's heritage assets to this and future generations. These assets may include Scheduled Monuments; Conservation Areas; Grade 1 and 2 Listed Buildings; World Heritage Sites; Protected Marine Wreck Sites and Military Remains; and other sites of archaeological interest."
That isn't a section of legislation on criminal damage - it's just CPS guidance on dealing with a particular category of crime, and goes on to say that the preferred approach on what they call "heritage crime" is NOT via the Criminal Damage Act 1971.
In terms of damage to a World Heritage Site, in any event I strongly suspect that the UNESCO World Heritage List would refer to Hadrian's Wall itself rather than things around it, as the point is protection of remaining fragments of the frontier of the Roman Empire (and indeed the tree, whilst old, is nowhere near being Roman era).
They probably will find an offence with more severe penalties than unlicensed felling to bring charges on, but I'm not sure it'll be this (indeed, as I say, the very link you've posted explicitly discourages a criminal damage charge).
Fair enough, IANAL likesay
I agree they will find some law to apply, and I am guessing there will be more than one villain. I do not believe this is the act of a solitary 16 year old having a larf on the Tok
If it was a kid on his own, it seems a bit reminiscent of the classic 'Telltale Head' Simpsons episode, where Bart decapitates the statue of Jebediah Springfield.
There was a metal version at the Yorkshire Sculpture Park for a while.
More likely the modern monstrosity at Housesteads will be repeated.
I actually quite liked that when we saw it last year, I think near the end of its stay. It was temporary, colourful, and most importantly, gave a higher perspective on the wall and its environs.
I've not much against people trying different things, especially if it is temporary and does not damage the surroundings.
That sycamore probably screamed across the Northumbrian wilds, as it fell to its death. We just couldn't hear it
Think about that
Not a nice thought but I think we can reject it. If trees felt pain they would have evolved to be able to defend themselves against it, eg by fleeing an attacker. This would happened by now, given how long they've been around, but it hasn't. Ergo they don't suffer, in that sense, so this one wouldn't have. It's perhaps the only silver lining in this sad dark cloud of a story.
Derrr, no - this is a fairly dim remark. We simply don't know, is the real answer. The fact trees can't move is no proof they don't feel pain, pain may simply be something they have to endure, because of the other benefits of staying-where-they-are - like roots
Plenty of creatures - maybe most - endure hideous things. An extreme example is male Emperor penguins, stuck on the darkened ice for an entire winter, if you've ever seen the videos you can be sure they don't enjoy it - but there are presumably benefits that outweight the hardship - eg lack of predators as the inland Antarctic environment is too grim and remote for sea leopards, raptors and the like
Human beings have tolerated the many diseases given to us by domesticated animals over the centuries - because the advantages of livestock outweight the disbenefits
That sycamore probably screamed across the Northumbrian wilds, as it fell to its death. We just couldn't hear it
Think about that
Not a nice thought but I think we can reject it. If trees felt pain they would have evolved to be able to defend themselves against it, eg by fleeing an attacker. This would happened by now, given how long they've been around, but it hasn't. Ergo they don't suffer, in that sense, so this one wouldn't have. It's perhaps the only silver lining in this sad dark cloud of a story.
That sycamore probably screamed across the Northumbrian wilds, as it fell to its death. We just couldn't hear it
Think about that
Don't kill plants - eat meat instead.
More seriously, I feel infinitely more sympathy for the poor fifteen year old girl who was murdered yesterday, and her friends and family, than any tree.
One can feel sad about more than one thing at a time.
And sometimes there are things that are so dreadful that it is easier to be upset about something not so bad. The story about the tree has all the moral certainty of a child murder, but without having to face the awfulness of the death of a child.
Sunak is terrible. Just awful. His new blokey speech is irritating but it's his contempt for people, utter failure to answer a simple question, hopeless out of touch cluelessness.
Why am I wasting my breath on the clown? Because unfortunately he's Britain's unelected Prime Minister.
Meanwhile Labour lead is 21% in today's YouGov.
Can't we just get this over and done with?
Most people in the real world are getting on with their lives.
Most people in the real world are moaning about it, and him
Not sure what real world you occupy but my real world experience is people are just getting on with their lives.
I think I can offer a synthesis to your dialectical discussion here: people are just getting on with their lives, and when prompted about their thoughts on the PM are probably moaning. I do a lot of moaning about all sorts of things while getting on with my life. In fact a good moan to a sympathetic audience is one of the things that makes life worth living.
People moan about the PM, when prompted, whoever it is. I just don’t get the level of visceral anger that Heathener claims there is. If people had a strong bias against then they’d rant unprompted.
I get the sense there is less visceral anger at Sunak than there was at Johnson. Partly because he seems so weak so those who don't like the government feel less powerless, partly because he doesn't have the same skill at deliberately riling and provoking his political opponents. Johnson for a time squatted like a toad over politics but was also a complete tosspot which was agonising.
Yes Johnson as PM was something I found close to intolerable. It wasn't the incompetence or about Brexit or anything, it was that he was just taking the piss. A hyper entitled poshboy taking the piss. Out of his job. Out of the country. Out of his supporters. Out of his opponents. Out of me. I was so relieved and happy when he crashed and burned.
Pretty sure the tree-fellers can be done under this section of the law on Criminal Damage
"Heritage crime is defined as any crime or behaviour that harms the value of England's heritage assets to this and future generations. These assets may include Scheduled Monuments; Conservation Areas; Grade 1 and 2 Listed Buildings; World Heritage Sites; Protected Marine Wreck Sites and Military Remains; and other sites of archaeological interest."
That isn't a section of legislation on criminal damage - it's just CPS guidance on dealing with a particular category of crime, and goes on to say that the preferred approach on what they call "heritage crime" is NOT via the Criminal Damage Act 1971.
In terms of damage to a World Heritage Site, in any event I strongly suspect that the UNESCO World Heritage List would refer to Hadrian's Wall itself rather than things around it, as the point is protection of remaining fragments of the frontier of the Roman Empire (and indeed the tree, whilst old, is nowhere near being Roman era).
They probably will find an offence with more severe penalties than unlicensed felling to bring charges on, but I'm not sure it'll be this (indeed, as I say, the very link you've posted explicitly discourages a criminal damage charge).
Fair enough, IANAL likesay
I agree they will find some law to apply, and I am guessing there will be more than one villain. I do not believe this is the act of a solitary 16 year old having a larf on the Tok
If it was a kid on his own, it seems a bit reminiscent of the classic 'Telltale Head' Simpsons episode, where Bart decapitates the statue of Jebediah Springfield.
A quick glance at the photos of the felling, and the circumstances around it, tells you that it was almost certainly not a 16 year old boy on his own
That sycamore probably screamed across the Northumbrian wilds, as it fell to its death. We just couldn't hear it
Think about that
Not a nice thought but I think we can reject it. If trees felt pain they would have evolved to be able to defend themselves against it, eg by fleeing an attacker. This would happened by now, given how long they've been around, but it hasn't. Ergo they don't suffer, in that sense, so this one wouldn't have. It's perhaps the only silver lining in this sad dark cloud of a story.
Derrr, no - this is a fairly dim remark. We simply don't know, is the real answer. The fact trees can't move is no proof they don't feel pain, pain may simply be something they have to endure, because of the other benefits of staying-where-they-are - like roots
Plenty of creatures - maybe most - endure hideous things. An extreme example is male Emperor penguins, stuck on the darkened ice for an entire winter, if you've ever seen the videos you can be sure they don't enjoy it - but there are presumably benefits that outweight the hardship - eg lack of predators as the inland Antarctic environment is too grim and remote for sea leopards, raptors and the like
Human beings have tolerated the many diseases given to us by domesticated animals over the centuries - because the advantages of livestock outweight the disbenefits
Trees are definitely able to pass on information to nearby trees about insect attack so that the nearby trees can prepare. This is a biochemical signal made via the roots and underground fungus networks.
Whether that extends to screaming about being felled I'm not sure.
If pain is simply defined as a signal telling you something is wrong then plants at some level have some awareness because they cauterize damage or redirect nutrients as required when a branch or stem is severed.
I'm not convinced they feel tortured agony in deeply terrible physical and psychological ways or reflect on or anticipate more of it.
Good evening from a very busy Luton airport. Clearly a flap on with security. Yesterday morning at Aberdeen they were screening / fondling practically everyone. And today? The same, with Border Force mob handed at the exit of the security hall checking boarding passes.
I guess it never occurred to Sunak that one of the reasons so many people in the North use their cars to get around is because public transport in most places is so shite. Still, Get Potholes Done.
You've cause and effect the entirely the wrong way round here. Up north the road system mostly works, so almost everybody just drives, because it's the most convenient option. They could build a high speed rail line from next doors garden to outside the gate of work with trains every ten minutes and give me the tickets for free, and I'd probably still mostly drive to work - the train won't be much faster, the car is better for carrying luggage (I've a lot of tools in the boot that come in handy now and again), and crucially I'm not at the mercy of the rail network if something goes wrong and there's no train home for whatever reason. Because there's little demand, such public transport service as there is tends to be grim. There's no easy cure for this - we could spray subsidies everywhere (bearing in mind it's most quite heavily subsidised anyway), but then we'd have lots of shinny new public transport that nobody uses either.
Down in the SE the road network doesn't really work because there are too many people and not enough roads for them, so they are forced onto public transport. This isn't a sign that the public transport network of the south is a success story to be imposed on the north. It's more another sign that the south is a stinking dump.
I commuted in from Selby to Halifax by car for seven years in the 2000s and I can tell you the the road system mostly just did not work then. I am not sure what has been done to improve it since.
That sycamore probably screamed across the Northumbrian wilds, as it fell to its death. We just couldn't hear it
Think about that
Not a nice thought but I think we can reject it. If trees felt pain they would have evolved to be able to defend themselves against it, eg by fleeing an attacker. This would happened by now, given how long they've been around, but it hasn't. Ergo they don't suffer, in that sense, so this one wouldn't have. It's perhaps the only silver lining in this sad dark cloud of a story.
Derrr, no - this is a fairly dim remark. We simply don't know, is the real answer. The fact trees can't move is no proof they don't feel pain, pain may simply be something they have to endure, because of the other benefits of staying-where-they-are - like roots
Plenty of creatures - maybe most - endure hideous things. An extreme example is male Emperor penguins, stuck on the darkened ice for an entire winter, if you've ever seen the videos you can be sure they don't enjoy it - but there are presumably benefits that outweight the hardship - eg lack of predators as the inland Antarctic environment is too grim and remote for sea leopards, raptors and the like
Human beings have tolerated the many diseases given to us by domesticated animals over the centuries - because the advantages of livestock outweight the disbenefits
It's true. Apparently, Britons regularly vote in Tory governments in the mistaken belief that they are the party of economic competence.
The evolutionary benefits of this have yet to be discovered.
If pain is simply defined as a signal telling you something is wrong then plants at some level have some awareness because they cauterize damage or redirect nutrients as required when a branch or stem is severed.
I'm not convinced they feel tortured agony in deeply terrible physical and psychological ways or reflect on or anticipate more of it.
Never mind plants, does AI feel tortured agony in deeply psychological ways?
That sycamore probably screamed across the Northumbrian wilds, as it fell to its death. We just couldn't hear it
Think about that
Not a nice thought but I think we can reject it. If trees felt pain they would have evolved to be able to defend themselves against it, eg by fleeing an attacker. This would happened by now, given how long they've been around, but it hasn't. Ergo they don't suffer, in that sense, so this one wouldn't have. It's perhaps the only silver lining in this sad dark cloud of a story.
That logic is peculiarly bad.
Oh. Let me check my Darwin. I thought it was in there.
I guess it never occurred to Sunak that one of the reasons so many people in the North use their cars to get around is because public transport in most places is so shite. Still, Get Potholes Done.
You've cause and effect the entirely the wrong way round here. Up north the road system mostly works, so almost everybody just drives, because it's the most convenient option. They could build a high speed rail line from next doors garden to outside the gate of work with trains every ten minutes and give me the tickets for free, and I'd probably still mostly drive to work - the train won't be much faster, the car is better for carrying luggage (I've a lot of tools in the boot that come in handy now and again), and crucially I'm not at the mercy of the rail network if something goes wrong and there's no train home for whatever reason. Because there's little demand, such public transport service as there is tends to be grim. There's no easy cure for this - we could spray subsidies everywhere (bearing in mind it's most quite heavily subsidised anyway), but then we'd have lots of shinny new public transport that nobody uses either.
Down in the SE the road network doesn't really work because there are too many people and not enough roads for them, so they are forced onto public transport. This isn't a sign that the public transport network of the south is a success story to be imposed on the north. It's more another sign that the south is a stinking dump.
If pain is simply defined as a signal telling you something is wrong then plants at some level have some awareness because they cauterize damage or redirect nutrients as required when a branch or stem is severed.
I'm not convinced they feel tortured agony in deeply terrible physical and psychological ways or reflect on or anticipate more of it.
Never mind plants, does AI feel tortured agony in deeply psychological ways?
Pretty sure the tree-fellers can be done under this section of the law on Criminal Damage
"Heritage crime is defined as any crime or behaviour that harms the value of England's heritage assets to this and future generations. These assets may include Scheduled Monuments; Conservation Areas; Grade 1 and 2 Listed Buildings; World Heritage Sites; Protected Marine Wreck Sites and Military Remains; and other sites of archaeological interest."
That isn't a section of legislation on criminal damage - it's just CPS guidance on dealing with a particular category of crime, and goes on to say that the preferred approach on what they call "heritage crime" is NOT via the Criminal Damage Act 1971.
In terms of damage to a World Heritage Site, in any event I strongly suspect that the UNESCO World Heritage List would refer to Hadrian's Wall itself rather than things around it, as the point is protection of remaining fragments of the frontier of the Roman Empire (and indeed the tree, whilst old, is nowhere near being Roman era).
They probably will find an offence with more severe penalties than unlicensed felling to bring charges on, but I'm not sure it'll be this (indeed, as I say, the very link you've posted explicitly discourages a criminal damage charge).
Fair enough, IANAL likesay
I agree they will find some law to apply, and I am guessing there will be more than one villain. I do not believe this is the act of a solitary 16 year old having a larf on the Tok
If it was a kid on his own, it seems a bit reminiscent of the classic 'Telltale Head' Simpsons episode, where Bart decapitates the statue of Jebediah Springfield.
A quick glance at the photos of the felling, and the circumstances around it, tells you that it was almost certainly not a 16 year old boy on his own
That sycamore probably screamed across the Northumbrian wilds, as it fell to its death. We just couldn't hear it
Think about that
Not a nice thought but I think we can reject it. If trees felt pain they would have evolved to be able to defend themselves against it, eg by fleeing an attacker. This would happened by now, given how long they've been around, but it hasn't. Ergo they don't suffer, in that sense, so this one wouldn't have. It's perhaps the only silver lining in this sad dark cloud of a story.
That logic is peculiarly bad.
Oh. Let me check my Darwin. I thought it was in there.
Your logic fail is to assume infinite possibility. Evolution has to work with what it has.
That sycamore probably screamed across the Northumbrian wilds, as it fell to its death. We just couldn't hear it
Think about that
Don't kill plants - eat meat instead.
More seriously, I feel infinitely more sympathy for the poor fifteen year old girl who was murdered yesterday, and her friends and family, than any tree.
One can feel sad about more than one thing at a time.
And sometimes there are things that are so dreadful that it is easier to be upset about something not so bad. The story about the tree has all the moral certainty of a child murder, but without having to face the awfulness of the death of a child.
Also, the rareness of the event
Sadly, teens are killed in London, week in week out. It is beyond awful. But no one has the energy to get absolutely outraged every time, you'd end up a quivering wreck
That tree was one of the most famous in the country, maybe even worldwide, thanks to Hollywood. Also a beautiful ancient thing in a unique ancient location - and also loved by many many thousands who have visited it, in real life. The organic equivalent of, say, a great Gothic cathedral
The wanton, pointless destruction of something like THAT is extremely rare. People don't knock over York Minster every day. So the outrage is much more profound, loud and visceral
That sycamore probably screamed across the Northumbrian wilds, as it fell to its death. We just couldn't hear it
Think about that
Not a nice thought but I think we can reject it. If trees felt pain they would have evolved to be able to defend themselves against it, eg by fleeing an attacker. This would happened by now, given how long they've been around, but it hasn't. Ergo they don't suffer, in that sense, so this one wouldn't have. It's perhaps the only silver lining in this sad dark cloud of a story.
That logic is peculiarly bad.
Oh. Let me check my Darwin. I thought it was in there.
Trees don't run. Instead they indulge in a bit of biochemical warfare.
They haven't really had time to adapt to chainsaws yet. Perhaps they'll evolve to grow silicate spikes.
Pretty sure the tree-fellers can be done under this section of the law on Criminal Damage
"Heritage crime is defined as any crime or behaviour that harms the value of England's heritage assets to this and future generations. These assets may include Scheduled Monuments; Conservation Areas; Grade 1 and 2 Listed Buildings; World Heritage Sites; Protected Marine Wreck Sites and Military Remains; and other sites of archaeological interest."
That isn't a section of legislation on criminal damage - it's just CPS guidance on dealing with a particular category of crime, and goes on to say that the preferred approach on what they call "heritage crime" is NOT via the Criminal Damage Act 1971.
In terms of damage to a World Heritage Site, in any event I strongly suspect that the UNESCO World Heritage List would refer to Hadrian's Wall itself rather than things around it, as the point is protection of remaining fragments of the frontier of the Roman Empire (and indeed the tree, whilst old, is nowhere near being Roman era).
They probably will find an offence with more severe penalties than unlicensed felling to bring charges on, but I'm not sure it'll be this (indeed, as I say, the very link you've posted explicitly discourages a criminal damage charge).
Fair enough, IANAL likesay
I agree they will find some law to apply, and I am guessing there will be more than one villain. I do not believe this is the act of a solitary 16 year old having a larf on the Tok
If it was a kid on his own, it seems a bit reminiscent of the classic 'Telltale Head' Simpsons episode, where Bart decapitates the statue of Jebediah Springfield.
A quick glance at the photos of the felling, and the circumstances around it, tells you that it was almost certainly not a 16 year old boy on his own
Fair point. I reckon he had a chainsaw with him.
And are we meant to believe its a coincidence that only yesterday we had this being shared here ...
Yes Rishi Sunak, the state of the roads across the country is absolutely lousy, as reflected in the potholes issue. And that is entirely down to you and your Conservative predecessors over 13 years. You've cut the funding of local authorities by more than any other branch of Government. Although the cuts are nationwide, you've concentrated those cuts particularly acutely on urban local authorities such as Manchester. And the local authorities least able to cope are those with responsibility for social care and childrens' social services, services which dominate their budgets and for which demand is rocketing despite the failure of your and previous governments to do anything to help local authorities cope. Those same authorities have responsibility for maintenance of highways so, surprise, surprise, to avoid more going bankrupt instead they can no longer afford to maintain the roads properly. You still try and kid us that a piddly little potholes fund can somehow do more than provide a sticking plaster for the absence of proper funding of first tier local authorities. No-one is fooled.
So you have some gall going on about the issue now.
But by all means make the issue of potholes your own. Because you really do own the problem.
Coventry student guilty of making IS chemical weapon drone
A PhD student has been convicted of designing and building a drone for terror group Islamic State (IS) that was capable of delivering a bomb. ... Officers seized several devices and also found an IS application form which Al-Bared, 27, denied filling in. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-66947311
Also, I think the anguish we express over the Sycamore Gap tree is because it encapsulates all our feelings of guilt, remorse, anger, shame, at what we have done to Mother Nature, over the centuries
But seldom is it focused and crystalised into one event: like this, and that is why it affects us deeply, we are mourning for all the things we have hurt, symbolised by one beautiful and iconic tree
That sycamore probably screamed across the Northumbrian wilds, as it fell to its death. We just couldn't hear it
Think about that
Not a nice thought but I think we can reject it. If trees felt pain they would have evolved to be able to defend themselves against it, eg by fleeing an attacker. This would happened by now, given how long they've been around, but it hasn't. Ergo they don't suffer, in that sense, so this one wouldn't have. It's perhaps the only silver lining in this sad dark cloud of a story.
That logic is peculiarly bad.
Oh. Let me check my Darwin. I thought it was in there.
Trees don't run. Instead they indulge in a bit of biochemical warfare.
They haven't really had time to adapt to chainsaws yet. Perhaps they'll evolve to grow silicate spikes.
You're saying their bark is worse than their bite?
That sycamore probably screamed across the Northumbrian wilds, as it fell to its death. We just couldn't hear it
Think about that
The "feeling pain" aspect of that article is a hell of a stretch on the content of the academic article it's reporting on, the point of which is that plants may emit sounds as well as chemical markers when infected or subject to drought, and this may be useful in agricultural settings to optimise conditions and improve yield.
That's been written up by a journo as "pain" but the fact is plants don't have nerve cells, which is generally seen as a prerequisite to the sensation of pain as any of us would understand it.
It becomes a bit of a philosophical question - it's hard enough to get a handle on the experience of being another type of animal, let alone a plant which operates on a very different biological basis to us. But the idea of trees feeling pain is, I think, a romantic notion rather than a particularly realistic or useful one.
Also, I think the anguish we express over the Sycamore Gap tree is because it encapsulates all our feelings of guilt, remorse, anger, shame, at what we have done to Mother Nature, over the centuries
But seldom is it focused and crystalised into one event: like this, and that is why it affects us deeply, we are mourning for all the things we have hurt, symbolised by one beautiful and iconic tree
I'm honoured you distinguish me from total sociopaths.
If pain is simply defined as a signal telling you something is wrong then plants at some level have some awareness because they cauterize damage or redirect nutrients as required when a branch or stem is severed.
I'm not convinced they feel tortured agony in deeply terrible physical and psychological ways or reflect on or anticipate more of it.
Never mind plants, does AI feel tortured agony in deeply psychological ways?
Well, we certainly do when a certain poster on here spams the site with it.
That sycamore probably screamed across the Northumbrian wilds, as it fell to its death. We just couldn't hear it
Think about that
Not a nice thought but I think we can reject it. If trees felt pain they would have evolved to be able to defend themselves against it, eg by fleeing an attacker. This would happened by now, given how long they've been around, but it hasn't. Ergo they don't suffer, in that sense, so this one wouldn't have. It's perhaps the only silver lining in this sad dark cloud of a story.
That’s poor logic, if the right conclusion. Trees do have ways of defending themselves: not against being chopped down, but that’s a very recent threat in evolutionary terms, but against herbivores eating them. One of the things they do in response is send out signals to other trees nearby (who are probably related). As such, trees will need to have a way of sensing damage, which one might describe as “pain”. Of course it’s nothing like the pain we experience, but that’s because we have big brains and trees don’t!
That sycamore probably screamed across the Northumbrian wilds, as it fell to its death. We just couldn't hear it
Think about that
Not a nice thought but I think we can reject it. If trees felt pain they would have evolved to be able to defend themselves against it, eg by fleeing an attacker. This would happened by now, given how long they've been around, but it hasn't. Ergo they don't suffer, in that sense, so this one wouldn't have. It's perhaps the only silver lining in this sad dark cloud of a story.
Derrr, no - this is a fairly dim remark. We simply don't know, is the real answer. The fact trees can't move is no proof they don't feel pain, pain may simply be something they have to endure, because of the other benefits of staying-where-they-are - like roots
Plenty of creatures - maybe most - endure hideous things. An extreme example is male Emperor penguins, stuck on the darkened ice for an entire winter, if you've ever seen the videos you can be sure they don't enjoy it - but there are presumably benefits that outweight the hardship - eg lack of predators as the inland Antarctic environment is too grim and remote for sea leopards, raptors and the like
Human beings have tolerated the many diseases given to us by domesticated animals over the centuries - because the advantages of livestock outweight the disbenefits
Those penguins get a particularly enjoyable summer at the end of that, I hope?
That sycamore probably screamed across the Northumbrian wilds, as it fell to its death. We just couldn't hear it
Think about that
Not a nice thought but I think we can reject it. If trees felt pain they would have evolved to be able to defend themselves against it, eg by fleeing an attacker. This would happened by now, given how long they've been around, but it hasn't. Ergo they don't suffer, in that sense, so this one wouldn't have. It's perhaps the only silver lining in this sad dark cloud of a story.
That’s poor logic, if the right conclusion. Trees do have ways of defending themselves: not against being chopped down, but that’s a very recent threat in evolutionary terms, but against herbivores eating them. One of the things they do in response is send out signals to other trees nearby (who are probably related). As such, trees will need to have a way of sensing damage, which one might describe as “pain”. Of course it’s nothing like the pain we experience, but that’s because we have big brains and trees don’t!
Yes, I don't think @kinabalu should be applying for the next Cambridge Professorship in Evolutionary Science
If pain is simply defined as a signal telling you something is wrong then plants at some level have some awareness because they cauterize damage or redirect nutrients as required when a branch or stem is severed.
I'm not convinced they feel tortured agony in deeply terrible physical and psychological ways or reflect on or anticipate more of it.
Coventry student guilty of making IS chemical weapon drone
A PhD student has been convicted of designing and building a drone for terror group Islamic State (IS) that was capable of delivering a bomb. ... Officers seized several devices and also found an IS application form which Al-Bared, 27, denied filling in. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-66947311
The real news is that IS has application forms.
People say a lot of harsh things about IS but, in fairness, I've heard from a lot of people in personnel management circles that their HR Department is top notch in terms of dealing efficiently with the relevant paperwork.
Don't get me wrong, I'd be concerned if one of them sat next to me on the bus in a chunky vest, but I'd trust them implicitly handling a tricky TUPE issue.
That sycamore probably screamed across the Northumbrian wilds, as it fell to its death. We just couldn't hear it
Think about that
Not a nice thought but I think we can reject it. If trees felt pain they would have evolved to be able to defend themselves against it, eg by fleeing an attacker. This would happened by now, given how long they've been around, but it hasn't. Ergo they don't suffer, in that sense, so this one wouldn't have. It's perhaps the only silver lining in this sad dark cloud of a story.
That’s poor logic, if the right conclusion. Trees do have ways of defending themselves: not against being chopped down, but that’s a very recent threat in evolutionary terms, but against herbivores eating them. One of the things they do in response is send out signals to other trees nearby (who are probably related). As such, trees will need to have a way of sensing damage, which one might describe as “pain”. Of course it’s nothing like the pain we experience, but that’s because we have big brains and trees don’t!
I could have been joking, I suppose. Let's hope for my sake I was.
Coventry student guilty of making IS chemical weapon drone
A PhD student has been convicted of designing and building a drone for terror group Islamic State (IS) that was capable of delivering a bomb. ... Officers seized several devices and also found an IS application form which Al-Bared, 27, denied filling in. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-66947311
The real news is that IS has application forms.
People say a lot of harsh things about IS but, in fairness, I've heard from a lot of people in personnel management circles that their HR Department is top notch in terms of dealing efficiently with the relevant paperwork.
Don't get me wrong, I'd be concerned if one of them sat next to me on the bus in a chunky vest, but I'd trust them implicitly handling a tricky TUPE issue.
It makes you wonder what the applicants who don't get taken on are like!
Coventry student guilty of making IS chemical weapon drone
A PhD student has been convicted of designing and building a drone for terror group Islamic State (IS) that was capable of delivering a bomb. ... Officers seized several devices and also found an IS application form which Al-Bared, 27, denied filling in. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-66947311
The real news is that IS has application forms.
People say a lot of harsh things about IS but, in fairness, I've heard from a lot of people in personnel management circles that their HR Department is top notch in terms of dealing efficiently with the relevant paperwork.
Don't get me wrong, I'd be concerned if one of them sat next to me on the bus in a chunky vest, but I'd trust them implicitly handling a tricky TUPE issue.
It makes you wonder what the applicants who don't get taken on are like!
Probably people who type up their CVs in Comic Sans.
I mean, IS are looking for the most appalling sociopaths on the planet, but even they have to draw a line somewhere.
That sycamore probably screamed across the Northumbrian wilds, as it fell to its death. We just couldn't hear it
Think about that
Not a nice thought but I think we can reject it. If trees felt pain they would have evolved to be able to defend themselves against it, eg by fleeing an attacker. This would happened by now, given how long they've been around, but it hasn't. Ergo they don't suffer, in that sense, so this one wouldn't have. It's perhaps the only silver lining in this sad dark cloud of a story.
Derrr, no - this is a fairly dim remark. We simply don't know, is the real answer. The fact trees can't move is no proof they don't feel pain, pain may simply be something they have to endure, because of the other benefits of staying-where-they-are - like roots
Plenty of creatures - maybe most - endure hideous things. An extreme example is male Emperor penguins, stuck on the darkened ice for an entire winter, if you've ever seen the videos you can be sure they don't enjoy it - but there are presumably benefits that outweight the hardship - eg lack of predators as the inland Antarctic environment is too grim and remote for sea leopards, raptors and the like
Human beings have tolerated the many diseases given to us by domesticated animals over the centuries - because the advantages of livestock outweight the disbenefits
Those penguins get a particularly enjoyable summer at the end of that, I hope?
They do. They get reunited with the mothers and they all go off to sea
Justice delayed is not only denied but means there is almost no deterrent effect of being caught only to be released back onto the streets, even if only for 679 days.
If pain is simply defined as a signal telling you something is wrong then plants at some level have some awareness because they cauterize damage or redirect nutrients as required when a branch or stem is severed.
I'm not convinced they feel tortured agony in deeply terrible physical and psychological ways or reflect on or anticipate more of it.
That sycamore probably screamed across the Northumbrian wilds, as it fell to its death. We just couldn't hear it
Think about that
Not a nice thought but I think we can reject it. If trees felt pain they would have evolved to be able to defend themselves against it, eg by fleeing an attacker. This would happened by now, given how long they've been around, but it hasn't. Ergo they don't suffer, in that sense, so this one wouldn't have. It's perhaps the only silver lining in this sad dark cloud of a story.
That logic is peculiarly bad.
Oh. Let me check my Darwin. I thought it was in there.
Trees don't run. Instead they indulge in a bit of biochemical warfare.
They haven't really had time to adapt to chainsaws yet. Perhaps they'll evolve to grow silicate spikes.
It's a great thought but I think they've missed the window. They're stuck as they are now. It's disappointing.
That sycamore probably screamed across the Northumbrian wilds, as it fell to its death. We just couldn't hear it
Think about that
Not a nice thought but I think we can reject it. If trees felt pain they would have evolved to be able to defend themselves against it, eg by fleeing an attacker. This would happened by now, given how long they've been around, but it hasn't. Ergo they don't suffer, in that sense, so this one wouldn't have. It's perhaps the only silver lining in this sad dark cloud of a story.
That’s poor logic, if the right conclusion. Trees do have ways of defending themselves: not against being chopped down, but that’s a very recent threat in evolutionary terms, but against herbivores eating them. One of the things they do in response is send out signals to other trees nearby (who are probably related). As such, trees will need to have a way of sensing damage, which one might describe as “pain”. Of course it’s nothing like the pain we experience, but that’s because we have big brains and trees don’t!
I could have been joking, I suppose. Let's hope for my sake I was.
I've found that a good way of "signalling" to the reader that you are joking, is by including something amusing. Works quite well
Justice delayed is not only denied but means there is almost no deterrent effect of being caught only to be released back onto the streets, even if only for 679 days.
Stop moaning. Potholes are, justifiably, a higher priority for the PM.
That sycamore probably screamed across the Northumbrian wilds, as it fell to its death. We just couldn't hear it
Think about that
Not a nice thought but I think we can reject it. If trees felt pain they would have evolved to be able to defend themselves against it, eg by fleeing an attacker. This would happened by now, given how long they've been around, but it hasn't. Ergo they don't suffer, in that sense, so this one wouldn't have. It's perhaps the only silver lining in this sad dark cloud of a story.
Derrr, no - this is a fairly dim remark. We simply don't know, is the real answer. The fact trees can't move is no proof they don't feel pain, pain may simply be something they have to endure, because of the other benefits of staying-where-they-are - like roots
Plenty of creatures - maybe most - endure hideous things. An extreme example is male Emperor penguins, stuck on the darkened ice for an entire winter, if you've ever seen the videos you can be sure they don't enjoy it - but there are presumably benefits that outweight the hardship - eg lack of predators as the inland Antarctic environment is too grim and remote for sea leopards, raptors and the like
Human beings have tolerated the many diseases given to us by domesticated animals over the centuries - because the advantages of livestock outweight the disbenefits
Penguins have to be kept cold or they start to melt. FFS, how can you not know this?
On holiday in Aotearoa a few years ago we saw a penguin standing stock still on the rocks near Kaikoura. On enquiring we found it was moulting and if disturbed, would make for the open sea and probably drown. So we left it alone and moved on.
Justice delayed is not only denied but means there is almost no deterrent effect of being caught only to be released back onto the streets, even if only for 679 days.
Stop moaning. Potholes are, justifiably, a higher priority for the PM.
Causes the chauffeur to have to spend time organising a repair!
That sycamore probably screamed across the Northumbrian wilds, as it fell to its death. We just couldn't hear it
Think about that
Not a nice thought but I think we can reject it. If trees felt pain they would have evolved to be able to defend themselves against it, eg by fleeing an attacker. This would happened by now, given how long they've been around, but it hasn't. Ergo they don't suffer, in that sense, so this one wouldn't have. It's perhaps the only silver lining in this sad dark cloud of a story.
That logic is peculiarly bad.
Oh. Let me check my Darwin. I thought it was in there.
Your logic fail is to assume infinite possibility. Evolution has to work with what it has.
I take this edit from an actual scientist with much humility and good grace.
I guess it never occurred to Sunak that one of the reasons so many people in the North use their cars to get around is because public transport in most places is so shite. Still, Get Potholes Done.
You've cause and effect the entirely the wrong way round here. Up north the road system mostly works, so almost everybody just drives, because it's the most convenient option. They could build a high speed rail line from next doors garden to outside the gate of work with trains every ten minutes and give me the tickets for free, and I'd probably still mostly drive to work - the train won't be much faster, the car is better for carrying luggage (I've a lot of tools in the boot that come in handy now and again), and crucially I'm not at the mercy of the rail network if something goes wrong and there's no train home for whatever reason. Because there's little demand, such public transport service as there is tends to be grim. There's no easy cure for this - we could spray subsidies everywhere (bearing in mind it's most quite heavily subsidised anyway), but then we'd have lots of shinny new public transport that nobody uses either.
Down in the SE the road network doesn't really work because there are too many people and not enough roads for them, so they are forced onto public transport. This isn't a sign that the public transport network of the south is a success story to be imposed on the north. It's more another sign that the south is a stinking dump.
I commuted in from Selby to Halifax by car for seven years in the 2000s and I can tell you the the road system mostly just did not work then. I am not sure what has been done to improve it since.
You make my point for me. That's a 40 mile commute each way across one of the busiest bits of the north and you did it regularly for 7 years, so it clearly did work.
Doing a 40 mile commute by road in the south east is almost impossible.
Southerners look at me like I've two heads when I explain I drive 23 miles each way work every day. Then I tell them it's a been a slow run if it took 30 minutes and their heads explode.
Justice delayed is not only denied but means there is almost no deterrent effect of being caught only to be released back onto the streets, even if only for 679 days.
Stop moaning. Potholes are, justifiably, a higher priority for the PM.
They are. They must be like like that huge crater in Arizona for him.
Look how close the meteor came to taking out the visitor centre!
I guess it never occurred to Sunak that one of the reasons so many people in the North use their cars to get around is because public transport in most places is so shite. Still, Get Potholes Done.
You've cause and effect the entirely the wrong way round here. Up north the road system mostly works, so almost everybody just drives, because it's the most convenient option. They could build a high speed rail line from next doors garden to outside the gate of work with trains every ten minutes and give me the tickets for free, and I'd probably still mostly drive to work - the train won't be much faster, the car is better for carrying luggage (I've a lot of tools in the boot that come in handy now and again), and crucially I'm not at the mercy of the rail network if something goes wrong and there's no train home for whatever reason. Because there's little demand, such public transport service as there is tends to be grim. There's no easy cure for this - we could spray subsidies everywhere (bearing in mind it's most quite heavily subsidised anyway), but then we'd have lots of shinny new public transport that nobody uses either.
Down in the SE the road network doesn't really work because there are too many people and not enough roads for them, so they are forced onto public transport. This isn't a sign that the public transport network of the south is a success story to be imposed on the north. It's more another sign that the south is a stinking dump.
I commuted in from Selby to Halifax by car for seven years in the 2000s and I can tell you the the road system mostly just did not work then. I am not sure what has been done to improve it since.
You make my point for me. That's a 40 mile commute each way across one of the busiest bits of the north and you did it regularly for 7 years, so it clearly did work.
Doing a 40 mile commute by road in the south east is almost impossible.
Southerners look at me like I've two heads when I explain I drive 23 miles each way work every day. Then I tell them it's a been a slow run if it took 30 minutes and their heads explode.
Yes. I mentioned I had a 23 mile commute recently and some reacted with horror and sympathy, but its a very pleasant drive and my route takes under half an hour ... that commute time is below the national average for commuting.
I guess it never occurred to Sunak that one of the reasons so many people in the North use their cars to get around is because public transport in most places is so shite. Still, Get Potholes Done.
You've cause and effect the entirely the wrong way round here. Up north the road system mostly works, so almost everybody just drives, because it's the most convenient option. They could build a high speed rail line from next doors garden to outside the gate of work with trains every ten minutes and give me the tickets for free, and I'd probably still mostly drive to work - the train won't be much faster, the car is better for carrying luggage (I've a lot of tools in the boot that come in handy now and again), and crucially I'm not at the mercy of the rail network if something goes wrong and there's no train home for whatever reason. Because there's little demand, such public transport service as there is tends to be grim. There's no easy cure for this - we could spray subsidies everywhere (bearing in mind it's most quite heavily subsidised anyway), but then we'd have lots of shinny new public transport that nobody uses either.
Down in the SE the road network doesn't really work because there are too many people and not enough roads for them, so they are forced onto public transport. This isn't a sign that the public transport network of the south is a success story to be imposed on the north. It's more another sign that the south is a stinking dump.
I commuted in from Selby to Halifax by car for seven years in the 2000s and I can tell you the the road system mostly just did not work then. I am not sure what has been done to improve it since.
You make my point for me. That's a 40 mile commute each way across one of the busiest bits of the north and you did it regularly for 7 years, so it clearly did work.
Doing a 40 mile commute by road in the south east is almost impossible.
Southerners look at me like I've two heads when I explain I drive 23 miles each way work every day. Then I tell them it's a been a slow run if it took 30 minutes and their heads explode.
One of my cousins emigrated to Aotearoa, and bought a house about half an hour’s drive outside Christchurch. His co-workers couldn’t understand how he coped with ‘a commute like that!’ He’d been brought up in S Essex where people habitually spent a hour getting to work.
A Soviet-designed cargo plane thought to be carrying Wagner fighters crashed in Mali, killing large numbers of the mercenaries in an explosion purportedly captured on video.
An unverified clip shared widely on social media appears to show the Ilyushin Il-76 plane touching down on a runway before overshooting the end of the strip, crashing and bursting into flames.
The plane is seen consumed by fire in a separate picture allegedly showing the aftermath of the crash in the northern city of Gao.
Mali’s authorities have not officially commented on the crash, which took place over the weekend.
It is believed to have involved one of the country’s fleet of military planes, carrying Wagner mercenaries working in the West African nation.
Sunak is terrible. Just awful. His new blokey speech is irritating but it's his contempt for people, utter failure to answer a simple question, hopeless out of touch cluelessness.
Why am I wasting my breath on the clown? Because unfortunately he's Britain's unelected Prime Minister.
Meanwhile Labour lead is 21% in today's YouGov.
Can't we just get this over and done with?
Most people in the real world are getting on with their lives.
Most people in the real world are moaning about it, and him
Not sure what real world you occupy but my real world experience is people are just getting on with their lives.
I think I can offer a synthesis to your dialectical discussion here: people are just getting on with their lives, and when prompted about their thoughts on the PM are probably moaning. I do a lot of moaning about all sorts of things while getting on with my life. In fact a good moan to a sympathetic audience is one of the things that makes life worth living.
People moan about the PM, when prompted, whoever it is. I just don’t get the level of visceral anger that Heathener claims there is. If people had a strong bias against then they’d rant unprompted.
I get the sense there is less visceral anger at Sunak than there was at Johnson. Partly because he seems so weak so those who don't like the government feel less powerless, partly because he doesn't have the same skill at deliberately riling and provoking his political opponents. Johnson for a time squatted like a toad over politics but was also a complete tosspot which was agonising.
I’d agree with this. There was genuine anger at the fact they were ‘partying’ while the rest of us were locked down.
If pain is simply defined as a signal telling you something is wrong then plants at some level have some awareness because they cauterize damage or redirect nutrients as required when a branch or stem is severed.
I'm not convinced they feel tortured agony in deeply terrible physical and psychological ways or reflect on or anticipate more of it.
We have trouble conceiving of consciousness that doesn't involve a verbal internal monologue, but it makes sense that there are gradations.
Sunak is terrible. Just awful. His new blokey speech is irritating but it's his contempt for people, utter failure to answer a simple question, hopeless out of touch cluelessness.
Why am I wasting my breath on the clown? Because unfortunately he's Britain's unelected Prime Minister.
Meanwhile Labour lead is 21% in today's YouGov.
Can't we just get this over and done with?
Most people in the real world are getting on with their lives.
Most people in the real world are moaning about it, and him
Not sure what real world you occupy but my real world experience is people are just getting on with their lives.
I think I can offer a synthesis to your dialectical discussion here: people are just getting on with their lives, and when prompted about their thoughts on the PM are probably moaning. I do a lot of moaning about all sorts of things while getting on with my life. In fact a good moan to a sympathetic audience is one of the things that makes life worth living.
People moan about the PM, when prompted, whoever it is. I just don’t get the level of visceral anger that Heathener claims there is. If people had a strong bias against then they’d rant unprompted.
I agree most don't have visceral anger towards Sunak, in the way they did towards True, and Johnson boards the end.
But nor do I hear any enthusiasm for him. And he needed enthusiasm to have any hope of turning Tory fortunes around.
I think this is is spot on. The indifference to him, especially on his own side, will doom him. He’s beige. He’s bland. He’s Tim Henman
That sycamore probably screamed across the Northumbrian wilds, as it fell to its death. We just couldn't hear it
Think about that
Not a nice thought but I think we can reject it. If trees felt pain they would have evolved to be able to defend themselves against it, eg by fleeing an attacker. This would happened by now, given how long they've been around, but it hasn't. Ergo they don't suffer, in that sense, so this one wouldn't have. It's perhaps the only silver lining in this sad dark cloud of a story.
That logic is peculiarly bad.
Oh. Let me check my Darwin. I thought it was in there.
Trees don't run. Instead they indulge in a bit of biochemical warfare.
They haven't really had time to adapt to chainsaws yet. Perhaps they'll evolve to grow silicate spikes.
You're saying their bark is worse than their bite?
I guess it never occurred to Sunak that one of the reasons so many people in the North use their cars to get around is because public transport in most places is so shite. Still, Get Potholes Done.
You've cause and effect the entirely the wrong way round here. Up north the road system mostly works, so almost everybody just drives, because it's the most convenient option. They could build a high speed rail line from next doors garden to outside the gate of work with trains every ten minutes and give me the tickets for free, and I'd probably still mostly drive to work - the train won't be much faster, the car is better for carrying luggage (I've a lot of tools in the boot that come in handy now and again), and crucially I'm not at the mercy of the rail network if something goes wrong and there's no train home for whatever reason. Because there's little demand, such public transport service as there is tends to be grim. There's no easy cure for this - we could spray subsidies everywhere (bearing in mind it's most quite heavily subsidised anyway), but then we'd have lots of shinny new public transport that nobody uses either.
Down in the SE the road network doesn't really work because there are too many people and not enough roads for them, so they are forced onto public transport. This isn't a sign that the public transport network of the south is a success story to be imposed on the north. It's more another sign that the south is a stinking dump.
I commuted in from Selby to Halifax by car for seven years in the 2000s and I can tell you the the road system mostly just did not work then. I am not sure what has been done to improve it since.
You make my point for me. That's a 40 mile commute each way across one of the busiest bits of the north and you did it regularly for 7 years, so it clearly did work.
Doing a 40 mile commute by road in the south east is almost impossible.
Southerners look at me like I've two heads when I explain I drive 23 miles each way work every day. Then I tell them it's a been a slow run if it took 30 minutes and their heads explode.
One of my cousins emigrated to Aotearoa, and bought a house about half an hour’s drive outside Christchurch. His co-workers couldn’t understand how he coped with ‘a commute like that!’ He’d been brought up in S Essex where people habitually spent a hour getting to work.
In the US the saying goes that people think nothing of driving five hours to go and pick up a taco.
Really pissed off now. Still at Luton. 18:30 flight now showing as 21:00. They took our on time plane off for another route and subbed us for an inbound from Belfast not arriving til 19:30. Its on time. yet out flight just slipped back another hour. FFS.
I would have thought most Northern redwall voters would rather get their potholes mended and better bus routes than HS2 extended to Manchester
You are Rishi Sunak and I claim my £5.
There is a thread on a United forum (united We Stand) I read, behind a paywall.
Rarely does politics get mentioned, public transport only when discussing how to get to away matches.
The clear 'fuck off you northern twats' has come through loud and clear here, there is a thread on HS2 being cancelled and total agreement on how clear it is how much the Tories are not remotely on the side of any of the north.
This is cutting through much more than you'd expect, cutting through not because people are keen on the railway, but as it's the clearest sign you'd ever have to show how little a government gives a shit about the north.
I would have thought most Northern redwall voters would rather get their potholes mended and better bus routes than HS2 extended to Manchester
You are Rishi Sunak and I claim my £5.
There is a thread on a United forum (united We Stand) I read, behind a paywall.
Rarely does politics get mentioned, public transport only when discussing how to get to away matches.
The clear 'fuck off you northern twats' has come through loud and clear here, there is a thread on HS2 being cancelled and total agreement on how clear it is how much the Tories are not remotely on the side of any of the north.
This is cutting through much more than you'd expect, cutting through not because people are keen on the railway, but as it's the clearest sign you'd ever have to show how little a government gives a shit about the north.
Partly the difference between having a promise withdrawn and never having the promise made in the first place. Even if they objectively end in the same place, the first feels much much worse.
Sunak, bless him, is probably too objective to get that.
The felling of the tree is mind-bendingly despicable. Whoever did it needs to be thrown in the cold North Sea, on a stormy night. From a high cliff. Tied in barbed wire
But why? What is the possible motive? Drive a long long way at midnight to carefully fell a tree with a heavy chainsaw. Why??
Can't believe I've never heard of this tree before.
I would have thought most Northern redwall voters would rather get their potholes mended and better bus routes than HS2 extended to Manchester
You are Rishi Sunak and I claim my £5.
There is a thread on a United forum (united We Stand) I read, behind a paywall.
Rarely does politics get mentioned, public transport only when discussing how to get to away matches.
The clear 'fuck off you northern twats' has come through loud and clear here, there is a thread on HS2 being cancelled and total agreement on how clear it is how much the Tories are not remotely on the side of any of the north.
This is cutting through much more than you'd expect, cutting through not because people are keen on the railway, but as it's the clearest sign you'd ever have to show how little a government gives a shit about the north.
Kurt and I rarely agree on this forum (even if he does live on the same road *waves amicably*), but I am 100% with him on this. This cuts through to the real world and gets discussed. The government look like a bunch of out of touch southern twats.
And HYUFD, you're dreaming if you think the North will see any of the money saved.
Really pissed off now. Still at Luton. 18:30 flight now showing as 21:00. They took our on time plane off for another route and subbed us for an inbound from Belfast not arriving til 19:30. Its on time. yet out flight just slipped back another hour. FFS.
If you travel regularly, by any means, regular delays of one sort or another are inevitable. Even on my 11km run down to the local town, I will sometimes find myself stuck behind a tractor, or someone who drives so rarely they daren't leave third gear, or a lost tourist.
It is inevitable and unavoidable.
Given that you can't do anything about it, why get so annoyed by it? It will make as much difference as raging against the rain.
I would have thought most Northern redwall voters would rather get their potholes mended and better bus routes than HS2 extended to Manchester
You are Rishi Sunak and I claim my £5.
There is a thread on a United forum (united We Stand) I read, behind a paywall.
Rarely does politics get mentioned, public transport only when discussing how to get to away matches.
The clear 'fuck off you northern twats' has come through loud and clear here, there is a thread on HS2 being cancelled and total agreement on how clear it is how much the Tories are not remotely on the side of any of the north.
This is cutting through much more than you'd expect, cutting through not because people are keen on the railway, but as it's the clearest sign you'd ever have to show how little a government gives a shit about the north.
Kurt and I rarely agree on this forum (even if he does live on the same road *waves amicably*), but I am 100% with him on this. This cuts through to the real world and gets discussed. The government look like a bunch of out of touch southern twats.
And HYUFD, you're dreaming if you think the North will see any of the money saved.
Besides. The whole dismal point of Sunak's plan is to give cover for tax cuts. If IHT is really the priority, most of the country can go whistle.
And then, a few years down the line,when it turns out that something like HS2 is still needed, it will cost even more to resurrect.
Comments
But nor do I hear any enthusiasm for him. And he needed enthusiasm to have any hope of turning Tory fortunes around.
If so, makes wonder what was there before *that*
This is something Starmer is going to have to grapple with in time, too.
More seriously, I feel infinitely more sympathy for the poor fifteen year old girl who was murdered yesterday, and her friends and family, than any tree.
I've severed whole plants before and essentially glued them back together and as long as they can access the roots they can recover.
Probably stupid - because it's a very slow growing and very old tree - but AI and stuff. Aliens. It Came From A Lab.
Must be a way.
Because there's little demand, such public transport service as there is tends to be grim. There's no easy cure for this - we could spray subsidies everywhere (bearing in mind it's most quite heavily subsidised anyway), but then we'd have lots of shinny new public transport that nobody uses either.
Down in the SE the road network doesn't really work because there are too many people and not enough roads for them, so they are forced onto public transport. This isn't a sign that the public transport network of the south is a success story to be imposed on the north. It's more another sign that the south is a stinking dump.
I've not much against people trying different things, especially if it is temporary and does not damage the surroundings.
Plenty of creatures - maybe most - endure hideous things. An extreme example is male Emperor penguins, stuck on the darkened ice for an entire winter, if you've ever seen the videos you can be sure they don't enjoy it - but there are presumably benefits that outweight the hardship - eg lack of predators as the inland Antarctic environment is too grim and remote for sea leopards, raptors and the like
Human beings have tolerated the many diseases given to us by domesticated animals over the centuries - because the advantages of livestock outweight the disbenefits
Personally I'm delighted that FSG are remaining majority owners, I think they've been excellent stewards of the club.
Definitely rather FSG than risk getting someone like Glazers (or Hicks and Gillette to be fair!), or sell soul going to someone like the Saudis.
And sometimes there are things that are so dreadful that it is easier to be upset about something not so bad. The story about the tree has all the moral certainty of a child murder, but without having to face the awfulness of the death of a child.
Whether that extends to screaming about being felled I'm not sure.
I'm not convinced they feel tortured agony in deeply terrible physical and psychological ways or reflect on or anticipate more of it.
I want to see roads linking towns and cities and to support the construction of new towns and cities, and unlocking new housing.
Not sure Hadrians Wall is a good location for a new town.
The evolutionary benefits of this have yet to be discovered.
Sadly, teens are killed in London, week in week out. It is beyond awful. But no one has the energy to get absolutely outraged every time, you'd end up a quivering wreck
That tree was one of the most famous in the country, maybe even worldwide, thanks to Hollywood. Also a beautiful ancient thing in a unique ancient location - and also loved by many many thousands who have visited it, in real life. The organic equivalent of, say, a great Gothic cathedral
The wanton, pointless destruction of something like THAT is extremely rare. People don't knock over York Minster every day. So the outrage is much more profound, loud and visceral
They haven't really had time to adapt to chainsaws yet. Perhaps they'll evolve to grow silicate spikes.
So you have some gall going on about the issue now.
But by all means make the issue of potholes your own. Because you really do own the problem.
A PhD student has been convicted of designing and building a drone for terror group Islamic State (IS) that was capable of delivering a bomb.
...
Officers seized several devices and also found an IS application form which Al-Bared, 27, denied filling in.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-66947311
The real news is that IS has application forms.
We all feel that, apart from total sociopaths and @BartholomewRoberts
But seldom is it focused and crystalised into one event: like this, and that is why it affects us deeply, we are mourning for all the things we have hurt, symbolised by one beautiful and iconic tree
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchineel
That's been written up by a journo as "pain" but the fact is plants don't have nerve cells, which is generally seen as a prerequisite to the sensation of pain as any of us would understand it.
It becomes a bit of a philosophical question - it's hard enough to get a handle on the experience of being another type of animal, let alone a plant which operates on a very different biological basis to us. But the idea of trees feeling pain is, I think, a romantic notion rather than a particularly realistic or useful one.
Have we done the latest YouGov yet? Lab lead back up to 21%, Lab +2, Con -3? Polling ending yesterday.
https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/TheTimes_VI_HS2_230927_W_yzXCaLz.pdf
Don't get me wrong, I'd be concerned if one of them sat next to me on the bus in a chunky vest, but I'd trust them implicitly handling a tricky TUPE issue.
I mean, IS are looking for the most appalling sociopaths on the planet, but even they have to draw a line somewhere.
Awww
The government released grim new justice data on Thursday morning, showing a record 64,709 cases in the crown court backlog and average delays of 679 days between crimes being committed and cases concluding at court.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/criminal-trials-abandoned-courts-lawyer-judge-ministry-justice-backlog-delays-b1110063.html
Justice delayed is not only denied but means there is almost no deterrent effect of being caught only to be released back onto the streets, even if only for 679 days.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/28/sweden-records-record-high-number-of-shooting-deaths-in-september
Wait.
What tree is this again?
So we left it alone and moved on.
That was almost twenty years ago. I find it almost incomprehensible that he was only in his early 60s then. He looks a decade older than OGH does now.
Doing a 40 mile commute by road in the south east is almost impossible.
Southerners look at me like I've two heads when I explain I drive 23 miles each way work every day. Then I tell them it's a been a slow run if it took 30 minutes and their heads explode.
They could be Finland and next to Russia.
He’d been brought up in S Essex where people habitually spent a hour getting to work.
A Soviet-designed cargo plane thought to be carrying Wagner fighters crashed in Mali, killing large numbers of the mercenaries in an explosion purportedly captured on video.
An unverified clip shared widely on social media appears to show the Ilyushin Il-76 plane touching down on a runway before overshooting the end of the strip, crashing and bursting into flames.
The plane is seen consumed by fire in a separate picture allegedly showing the aftermath of the crash in the northern city of Gao.
Mali’s authorities have not officially commented on the crash, which took place over the weekend.
It is believed to have involved one of the country’s fleet of military planes, carrying Wagner mercenaries working in the West African nation.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/28/russian-cargo-plane-carrying-wagner-fighters-crashes/
I think this is is spot on. The indifference to him, especially on his own side, will doom him. He’s beige. He’s bland. He’s Tim Henman
I used to just pay £200 for Office and I was done for years, until the OS upgraded.
Don't like being milked.
Right.
He did play a couple of other roles.
And OpenOffice is free.
Rarely does politics get mentioned, public transport only when discussing how to get to away matches.
The clear 'fuck off you northern twats' has come through loud and clear here, there is a thread on HS2 being cancelled and total agreement on how clear it is how much the Tories are not remotely on the side of any of the north.
This is cutting through much more than you'd expect, cutting through not because people are keen on the railway, but as it's the clearest sign you'd ever have to show how little a government gives a shit about the north.
Sunak, bless him, is probably too objective to get that.
And HYUFD, you're dreaming if you think the North will see any of the money saved.
It is inevitable and unavoidable.
Given that you can't do anything about it, why get so annoyed by it? It will make as much difference as raging against the rain.
And then, a few years down the line,when it turns out that something like HS2 is still needed, it will cost even more to resurrect.