My view of the ECHR would be the same even if Labour was in government . We need protection when governments cross the line . Indeed I think the ruling which stopped husbands and wives from being separated if they had to go into care was brought against a Labour government .
So you wouldn't object to the ECHR being repatriated, included into UK law, and ruled on by UK judges? Because that's the most likely form "withdrawal from the ECHR" would actually take.
The Tories won’t do that because their issue is with Article 3 of the convention .
“No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhumane or degrading treatment or punishment “.
They won’t repatriate the current convention in full .
If the SC find against the government it will be a breach of that.
You think the Tories are desperate to torture people, and it’s only the ECHR standing in their way?
Didn't we use to have prediction competitions on PB for things like by-elections? It feels like there haven't been any for quite a while. I wonder when and where the last one was.
I see no 10 are now resorting to threatening the ECHR .
Yes of course we can trust the Tories to enshrine our rights ! With the Mary Poppins of today Braverman we surely will be basking in more rights than ever before ! Whats to fear !!!
In their scorched earth policy security co-operation with the EU goes , the Good Friday Agreement is breached and the UK ends up in the company of Russia and Belarus .
What sort of message does leaving the ECHR send to the rest of the world and other European countries especially at this time .
It says: We are now Sovereign, and, usefully, Fuck Off You Left Lawyer Wankers
The EHCR is bullshit we do not need. THIS IS ENGLAND
So you trust the Tories with your rights . You really are deluded .
Surely as a democrat you need to put your faith in the electorate?
Relying on a foreign body to overrule the votes of the British electorate… hmmh…
Another who is missing the point . The whole point of the ECHR is to protect citizens from their own government, it has to be a Supra national organization.
And where exactly is it over ruling votes . Did the Tories have the Stop the boats in their last election manifesto in 2019. If they want to leave the ECHR they should put it to a referendum then .
A supreme court with a written constitution, a la USA, also protects its citizen's rights. I don't see why it has to be supranational.
The US constitution sadly does not protect its citizens . To do that requires help from GOP states who don’t want more rights for Americans .
I’d advise you to look at some of the key ECHR rulings effecting the UK which have been brought by Brits. Of course the right wing papers will ignore this as it doesn’t fit their agenda . You are aware I take it that the Tories only a few years back wanted the power to ignore judges rulings they didn’t agree with in the area of judicial reviews . The current incarnation of the Tories are very far from being relied on to guarantee our rights .
Why can’t judges in the UK rule on such issues?
I have a lot of faith in UK judges . Thankfully we don’t have an overtly politicized judiciary like the USA . The problem is the judges will refer to any future rights legislation as their framework to decide cases . So if you have a Tory administration framing those rights the judges will be bound by that .
It’s very hard to argue against any of the rights within the ECHR . I’d be surprised if a single member of the public would find issue . Rights are there to protect everyone even if we don’t think those people warrant them . If we cherry pick who can have certain rights then it’s a slippery slope .
The majority of the public support the death penalty for child killers and mass murderers which is now against the ECHR.
Civilized countries don’t execute people . It’s not even a deterrent highlighted by the USA . We should also think of those executed who were later found to be innocent. The execution of one innocent person is one person too many IMO.
Sadly the majority of the public allow their buttons to be pressed and don’t think of unintended consequences. Many just repeat what they’ve been spoon fed by the right wing media .
Forums like this where we discuss things in detail are a rarity.
Japan - uncivilised, crime ridden and a heathen nation according to Nico
I see no 10 are now resorting to threatening the ECHR .
Yes of course we can trust the Tories to enshrine our rights ! With the Mary Poppins of today Braverman we surely will be basking in more rights than ever before ! Whats to fear !!!
In their scorched earth policy security co-operation with the EU goes , the Good Friday Agreement is breached and the UK ends up in the company of Russia and Belarus .
What sort of message does leaving the ECHR send to the rest of the world and other European countries especially at this time .
It says: We are now Sovereign, and, usefully, Fuck Off You Left Lawyer Wankers
The EHCR is bullshit we do not need. THIS IS ENGLAND
So you trust the Tories with your rights . You really are deluded .
Surely as a democrat you need to put your faith in the electorate?
Relying on a foreign body to overrule the votes of the British electorate… hmmh…
Another who is missing the point . The whole point of the ECHR is to protect citizens from their own government, it has to be a Supra national organization.
And where exactly is it over ruling votes . Did the Tories have the Stop the boats in their last election manifesto in 2019. If they want to leave the ECHR they should put it to a referendum then .
A supreme court with a written constitution, a la USA, also protects its citizen's rights. I don't see why it has to be supranational.
The US constitution sadly does not protect its citizens . To do that requires help from GOP states who don’t want more rights for Americans .
I’d advise you to look at some of the key ECHR rulings effecting the UK which have been brought by Brits. Of course the right wing papers will ignore this as it doesn’t fit their agenda . You are aware I take it that the Tories only a few years back wanted the power to ignore judges rulings they didn’t agree with in the area of judicial reviews . The current incarnation of the Tories are very far from being relied on to guarantee our rights .
Why can’t judges in the UK rule on such issues?
I have a lot of faith in UK judges . Thankfully we don’t have an overtly politicized judiciary like the USA . The problem is the judges will refer to any future rights legislation as their framework to decide cases . So if you have a Tory administration framing those rights the judges will be bound by that .
It’s very hard to argue against any of the rights within the ECHR . I’d be surprised if a single member of the public would find issue . Rights are there to protect everyone even if we don’t think those people warrant them . If we cherry pick who can have certain rights then it’s a slippery slope .
The majority of the public support the death penalty for child killers and mass murderers which is now against the ECHR.
Civilized countries don’t execute people . It’s not even a deterrent highlighted by the USA . We should also think of those executed who were later found to be innocent. The execution of one innocent person is one person too many IMO.
Sadly the majority of the public allow their buttons to be pressed and don’t think of unintended consequences. Many just repeat what they’ve been spoon fed by the right wing media .
Forums like this where we discuss things in detail are a rarity.
Singapore is a civilised country and it's hard to argue that their use of the death penalty hasn't worked as a deterrent against drug smuggling.
The 'one innocent person is too many' argument could be applied against lots of things that we approve of.
Sure.
And I have no doubt that is we introduced the death penalty for littering, it would be pretty effective at limiting littering.
Unfortunately, it would also result in juries finding guilty people innocent, because they would feel the punishment was excessive for the crime. The three strikes law in California being a classic example of this.
This was one of the reasons for the abolition of the death penalty here.
I see no 10 are now resorting to threatening the ECHR .
Yes of course we can trust the Tories to enshrine our rights ! With the Mary Poppins of today Braverman we surely will be basking in more rights than ever before ! Whats to fear !!!
In their scorched earth policy security co-operation with the EU goes , the Good Friday Agreement is breached and the UK ends up in the company of Russia and Belarus .
What sort of message does leaving the ECHR send to the rest of the world and other European countries especially at this time .
It says: We are now Sovereign, and, usefully, Fuck Off You Left Lawyer Wankers
The EHCR is bullshit we do not need. THIS IS ENGLAND
So you trust the Tories with your rights . You really are deluded .
Surely as a democrat you need to put your faith in the electorate?
Relying on a foreign body to overrule the votes of the British electorate… hmmh…
Another who is missing the point . The whole point of the ECHR is to protect citizens from their own government, it has to be a Supra national organization.
And where exactly is it over ruling votes . Did the Tories have the Stop the boats in their last election manifesto in 2019. If they want to leave the ECHR they should put it to a referendum then .
...If our politicians, democratically elected, want to do something they should be allowed to and then face the consequences
The Nazis were democratically elected, and when they wanted to do something it was insane and took the entire planet to stop them. The contention that "everything is OK if democratically mandated" is just more silliness. Chesterton's Fence applies, ☹️
Didn't we use to have prediction competitions on PB for things like by-elections? It feels like there haven't been any for quite a while. I wonder when and where the last one was.
@Andy_JS , talking of predictions, note the phrase "The markets have been consistently wrong about Fed policy this year" in the link below. We are perpetually bad at prediction.
I see no 10 are now resorting to threatening the ECHR .
Yes of course we can trust the Tories to enshrine our rights ! With the Mary Poppins of today Braverman we surely will be basking in more rights than ever before ! Whats to fear !!!
In their scorched earth policy security co-operation with the EU goes , the Good Friday Agreement is breached and the UK ends up in the company of Russia and Belarus .
What sort of message does leaving the ECHR send to the rest of the world and other European countries especially at this time .
It says: We are now Sovereign, and, usefully, Fuck Off You Left Lawyer Wankers
The EHCR is bullshit we do not need. THIS IS ENGLAND
So you trust the Tories with your rights . You really are deluded .
Surely as a democrat you need to put your faith in the electorate?
Relying on a foreign body to overrule the votes of the British electorate… hmmh…
Another who is missing the point . The whole point of the ECHR is to protect citizens from their own government, it has to be a Supra national organization.
And where exactly is it over ruling votes . Did the Tories have the Stop the boats in their last election manifesto in 2019. If they want to leave the ECHR they should put it to a referendum then .
The background of many of the judges is murky, to say the least.
If our politicians, democratically elected, want to do something they should be allowed to and then face the consequences
Isn’t it traditional for politicians to propose to do something in a manifesto and then face the consequences?
My view of the ECHR would be the same even if Labour was in government . We need protection when governments cross the line . Indeed I think the ruling which stopped husbands and wives from being separated if they had to go into care was brought against a Labour government .
So you wouldn't object to the ECHR being repatriated, included into UK law, and ruled on by UK judges? Because that's the most likely form "withdrawal from the ECHR" would actually take.
Christ Almighty! The Human Rights Act 1988 does exactly that. It incorporates the ECHR into British law and British judges rule on it.
Those who think that that will be fine if the U.K. withdraws from the Convention are being, in Lenin's wonderful phrase, "useful idiots". And, yes, I include Sumption in this. He may be super-intelligent but he is also being naive and lacking in the cunning those attacking the ECHR are displaying. Those Tories agitating for withdrawal are not concerned about the foreign court aspect. They don't like the rights the ECHR contains and will - if withdrawal happens - be seeking to remove or limit some of those rights and not just from foreigners either.
That is what Raab's ill-fated Bill of Rights Bill was trying to do. That is what the attempts to water down judicial review are trying to do.
This is like Brexit all over again - we just want a bit more control while having a close relationship turned into the ERG's we don't want to have anything to do with those nasty Europeans at all. We want you - Parliament - to have more control turned into we the executive want to take all the powers to ourselves and ignore everyone else. The latter was what they wanted all along .
Getting rid or watering down many of the Convention rights for all of us is what Braverman and others want and those who think otherwise are deluded.
Comments
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/27/hmrc-investigating-tax-affairs-of-one-of-tory-party-largest-donors-anthony-bamford
Lord Bamford of JCB fame.
https://www.ft.com/content/42968686-926c-4a32-8868-494f891d0e26
Those who think that that will be fine if the U.K. withdraws from the Convention are being, in Lenin's wonderful phrase, "useful idiots". And, yes, I include Sumption in this. He may be super-intelligent but he is also being naive and lacking in the cunning those attacking the ECHR are displaying. Those Tories agitating for withdrawal are not concerned about the foreign court aspect. They don't like the rights the ECHR contains and will - if withdrawal happens - be seeking to remove or limit some of those rights and not just from foreigners either.
That is what Raab's ill-fated Bill of Rights Bill was trying to do. That is what the attempts to water down judicial review are trying to do.
This is like Brexit all over again - we just want a bit more control while having a close relationship turned into the ERG's we don't want to have anything to do with those nasty Europeans at all. We want you - Parliament - to have more control turned into we the executive want to take all the powers to ourselves and ignore everyone else. The latter was what they wanted all along .
Getting rid or watering down many of the Convention rights for all of us is what Braverman and others want and those who think otherwise are deluded.