Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Sunak might be worse than Johnson and Truss – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,118
edited October 2023 in General
Sunak might be worse than Johnson and Truss – politicalbetting.com

According to @IpsosUK, Sunak's net approval rating (-33) on whether he's doing a good job is now lower than:– Truss's rating after the mini budget (-32 at the end of Septembrr 2022)– Johnson's worst ratings ever (lowest was -30), including the week he resigned. pic.twitter.com/wQisVI9dT1

Read the full story here

«13456

Comments

  • I have insomnia.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,388
    Johnson: Philip
    Truss: Elizabeth
    Sunak: Larry
  • I would say next May's locals are probably withing weeks of the next GE so it'll be a bit late to replace RS by then so if not before end of year I reckon the Blues are stuck with our millionaire PM. I cant see them shifting him tbh so he'll be the face of the GE, he's untested electorally and so some good betting opportunities should be out there.
  • Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 685
    I am exhausted after watching the Ireland South Africa game - completely enthralling. I predicted a South Africa win but it could have gone either way.

    In this weekends games I also predicted a Samoa win (Fail) and a Wales win (oh $hit...).

    A brilliant RWC so far....

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    FPT:
    Cyclefree said:

    darkage said:

    Cyclefree said:

    tlg86 said:
    The arrogance of this. We must not be subject to the same laws that apply to everyone else - even where there is evidence that one of us might have committed a crime.

    And if we don't get our way we'll refuse to do something which may be necessary to keep safe the people we have pledged to serve.
    It isn't arrogant. They aren't walking away from the Met, they are just saying they don't want to be firearms officers. You should only do this job if you accept the proposition that one error of judgement can lead you spending the rest of your life in prison. I would guess it will be difficult to find competent people to do this work after these events.


    The test for murder is much higher than a simple error of judgment. This is the test the CPS applies before deciding to charge -

    1. Is there sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction? If the answer is yes, then the next question is:

    2. Is a prosecution required in the public interest?

    What these officers are in effect saying is that the CPS should not apply this test.

    Now I have quite a lot of sympathy for armed police officers having to make a split second decision about whether to shoot someone. There have been quite a few such shootings in recent years - in some cases in terrorist incidents as well as in ordinary crimes. But if the evidence for a murder charge is there, the police officers' argument seems to be that it should not be in the public interest for them to be prosecuted. And that means that those charged with implementing and upholding the law should, ipso facto, be excused from following the same laws as the rest of us.

    That is a pretty dangerous precedent to set.
    Don't the CPS also have to consider the suspect to be guilty? My police officer friend is concerned that they are taking the easy option of letting a jury decide.

    I have no idea if this is the protocol in such cases, but I think all serving armed police officers should have the right to review the evidence including any camera footage that has been used by the CPS to come to the decision to charge. That might be unusual, but they are in an unusual job and have the right to know what will get them charged with murder.
  • I know his ratings are dire and whatever honeymoon period he had has long-since expired. But I can't see the Tories ditching a third Prime Minister this Parliament (a) because the optics are terrible, (b) because there's no obvious successor, and (c) because there's now a whiff of resignation-to-one's-fate about this administration.

    I'm a bit concerned about the paragraph that starts "I guess that's what happens when...". Did you really mean to say what it looks (to me) as though you're saying, TSE?
  • I know his ratings are dire and whatever honeymoon period he had has long-since expired. But I can't see the Tories ditching a third Prime Minister this Parliament (a) because the optics are terrible, (b) because there's no obvious successor, and (c) because there's now a whiff of resignation-to-one's-fate about this administration.

    I'm a bit concerned about the paragraph that starts "I guess that's what happens when...". Did you really mean to say what it looks (to me) as though you're saying, TSE?

    I missed out an or.

    I hope it makes sense now.
  • Thanks for clarifying!

    Sorry to be utterly pedantic (it comes with being a mathematician) but is there a "when" missing between "happens" and "you"?
  • @TSE

    Yesterday you were rather rude about the King parental style. From today’s mail:

    At the time, he [Harry] was offered the chance to stay in Balmoral with his father Charles on the anniversary of the Queen's death on September 7 but said his busy itinerary made it impossible.

    I guess Harry doesn’t rank seeing his father that high in his list of priorities
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,631

    @TSE

    Yesterday you were rather rude about the King parental style. From today’s mail:

    At the time, he [Harry] was offered the chance to stay in Balmoral with his father Charles on the anniversary of the Queen's death on September 7 but said his busy itinerary made it impossible.

    I guess Harry doesn’t rank seeing his father that high in his list of priorities

    You believe the Daily Mail is neutral in this matter.

    In which case Jeremy Corbyn was a Czech Spy
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    edited September 2023

    [...] (c) because there's now a whiff of resignation-to-one's-fate about this administration.

    This is the thing isn't it? Everyone I know, Conservative voters and members included, feel the same. I don't think there's any likelihood of them replacing Rishi Sunak. They are resigned to their fate now.

    It's when not if, and the wait feels tedious. It was like this in 1996/7 but without quite the same excitement towards Keir Starmer as there was towards Tony Blair.That's partly also a reflection on the state of the country, which remains grim.

    13 months feels like a long time.
  • @TSE

    Yesterday you were rather rude about the King parental style. From today’s mail:

    At the time, he [Harry] was offered the chance to stay in Balmoral with his father Charles on the anniversary of the Queen's death on September 7 but said his busy itinerary made it impossible.

    I guess Harry doesn’t rank seeing his father that high in his list of priorities

    The King treats his youngest son in the same way the King treated his first wife.

    Adulterers have form for treating their families badly.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,285

    I have insomnia.

    I blame Sunak.

    Two days after getting back from S Korea, got a great night’s sleep.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,285

    I know his ratings are dire and whatever honeymoon period he had has long-since expired. But I can't see the Tories ditching a third Prime Minister this Parliament (a) because the optics are terrible, (b) because there's no obvious successor, and (c) because there's now a whiff of resignation-to-one's-fate about this administration.

    I'm a bit concerned about the paragraph that starts "I guess that's what happens when...". Did you really mean to say what it looks (to me) as though you're saying, TSE?

    Also, the argument that the replacement couldn’t possibly be worse has been tested and found wanting.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,285

    @TSE

    Yesterday you were rather rude about the King parental style. From today’s mail:

    At the time, he [Harry] was offered the chance to stay in Balmoral with his father Charles on the anniversary of the Queen's death on September 7 but said his busy itinerary made it impossible.

    I guess Harry doesn’t rank seeing his father that high in his list of priorities

    No doubt there’s some fault on both sides - but good parents welcome their kids unconditionally.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,285
    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    Cyclefree said:

    darkage said:

    Cyclefree said:

    tlg86 said:
    The arrogance of this. We must not be subject to the same laws that apply to everyone else - even where there is evidence that one of us might have committed a crime.

    And if we don't get our way we'll refuse to do something which may be necessary to keep safe the people we have pledged to serve.
    It isn't arrogant. They aren't walking away from the Met, they are just saying they don't want to be firearms officers. You should only do this job if you accept the proposition that one error of judgement can lead you spending the rest of your life in prison. I would guess it will be difficult to find competent people to do this work after these events.


    The test for murder is much higher than a simple error of judgment. This is the test the CPS applies before deciding to charge -

    1. Is there sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction? If the answer is yes, then the next question is:

    2. Is a prosecution required in the public interest?

    What these officers are in effect saying is that the CPS should not apply this test.

    Now I have quite a lot of sympathy for armed police officers having to make a split second decision about whether to shoot someone. There have been quite a few such shootings in recent years - in some cases in terrorist incidents as well as in ordinary crimes. But if the evidence for a murder charge is there, the police officers' argument seems to be that it should not be in the public interest for them to be prosecuted. And that means that those charged with implementing and upholding the law should, ipso facto, be excused from following the same laws as the rest of us.

    That is a pretty dangerous precedent to set.
    Don't the CPS also have to consider the suspect to be guilty? My police officer friend is concerned that they are taking the easy option of letting a jury decide.

    I have no idea if this is the protocol in such cases, but I think all serving armed police officers should have the right to review the evidence including any camera footage that has been used by the CPS to come to the decision to charge. That might be unusual, but they are in an unusual job and have the right to know what will get them charged with murder.
    No, they have to consider that there’s a prima facile case against an individual with a reasonable change of conviction.
    It is absolutely not up to them to consider anyone guilty.

    Of course the jury decides - that’s how our system of justice works.
    You police friend ought to understand that.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    edited September 2023

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    An excellent post with one quibble. He may unfairly be perceived to be disinterested but I don't think his detachment is mere perception.

    He really doesn't get us ordinary folk. He is detached.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,285
    Interesting article; sounds a very sensible guy.

    Josep Borrell calls for European unity in face of Ukraine war, US-China competition and rise of global south

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/22/migration-eu-diplomat-josep-borrell-ukraine-china
    … Borrell said nationalism was on the rise in Europe but this was more about migration than Euroscepticism. “Brexit actually was feared to be an epidemic. And it has not been,” he said. “It has been a vaccine. No one wants to follow the British leaving the European Union.

    “Migration is a bigger divide for the European Union. And it could be a dissolving force for the European Union.” Despite establishing a shared common external border, “we have not been able until now to agree on a common migration policy”, he said.

    He attributed this to deep cultural and political differences inside the EU: “There are some members of the European Union that are Japanese-style – we don’t want to mix. We don’t want migrants. We don’t want to accept people from outside. We want our purity.”

    He said other countries, such as Spain, have a long history of accepting migrants. “The paradox is that Europe needs migrants because we have so low demographic growth. If we want to survive from a labour point of view, we need migrants.”…

    … Increasingly a target for personal criticism by the Russian foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, Borrell was at the heart of the decision to persuade EU states to supply arms to Kyiv as Russian troops crossed the border – indeed he says it is the proudest moment of his career...


  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    edited September 2023
    And Nigel's also right. It is about the policy too. He is indeed flailing around.

    They're a busted flush. Time for change. That's not a political rallying cry but a statement of fact. They, and we, need the Conservative Party to spend time on the Opposition benches.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    Cyclefree said:

    darkage said:

    Cyclefree said:

    tlg86 said:
    The arrogance of this. We must not be subject to the same laws that apply to everyone else - even where there is evidence that one of us might have committed a crime.

    And if we don't get our way we'll refuse to do something which may be necessary to keep safe the people we have pledged to serve.
    It isn't arrogant. They aren't walking away from the Met, they are just saying they don't want to be firearms officers. You should only do this job if you accept the proposition that one error of judgement can lead you spending the rest of your life in prison. I would guess it will be difficult to find competent people to do this work after these events.


    The test for murder is much higher than a simple error of judgment. This is the test the CPS applies before deciding to charge -

    1. Is there sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction? If the answer is yes, then the next question is:

    2. Is a prosecution required in the public interest?

    What these officers are in effect saying is that the CPS should not apply this test.

    Now I have quite a lot of sympathy for armed police officers having to make a split second decision about whether to shoot someone. There have been quite a few such shootings in recent years - in some cases in terrorist incidents as well as in ordinary crimes. But if the evidence for a murder charge is there, the police officers' argument seems to be that it should not be in the public interest for them to be prosecuted. And that means that those charged with implementing and upholding the law should, ipso facto, be excused from following the same laws as the rest of us.

    That is a pretty dangerous precedent to set.
    Don't the CPS also have to consider the suspect to be guilty? My police officer friend is concerned that they are taking the easy option of letting a jury decide.

    I have no idea if this is the protocol in such cases, but I think all serving armed police officers should have the right to review the evidence including any camera footage that has been used by the CPS to come to the decision to charge. That might be unusual, but they are in an unusual job and have the right to know what will get them charged with murder.
    No, they have to consider that there’s a prima facile case against an individual with a reasonable change of conviction.
    It is absolutely not up to them to consider anyone guilty.

    Of course the jury decides - that’s how our system of justice works.
    You police friend ought to understand that.
    The point about the CPS testing cases in court was my point not his. A few years ago I countered criticism on here of the CPS for poor conviction rates by saying precisely what you said. That is, you can never be certain of a conviction, a not guilty verdict isn't the end of the world. And someone on here told me that that CPS is not allowed to do that.

    My friend's concern is that the powers that be don't have backbone and will just leave it to the jury to say not guilty. That way, no one can complain.

    I think we don't know enough details to judge. I do think the serving officers should have the right to see the evidence to know what the situation is. I have no idea if that has actually happened.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,285
    Heathener said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    An excellent post with one quibble. He may unfairly be perceived to be disinterested but I don't think his detachment is mere perception.

    He really doesn't get us ordinary folk. He is detached.
    He also a fool.
    The HS2 policy makes zero sense - and earmarking 7th for an inheritance tax giveaway ?
    Cynical nonsense.

    He might be a competent administrator, but he’s a dreadful chief exec.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,097
    FPT

    On HS2 I expect Hunt will announce any changes in his Autumn statement on the 22nd November and I suspect if it is the cancellation of the Manchester expansion then a considerable sum will be diverted to Northern rail developments

    If he does he will, like Shapps, be lying to the House because without HS2’s and indeed HS3’s capacity improvements there can’t be big change in rail services in the north.
  • GasmanGasman Posts: 132
    He's definitely worse than Truss - the leadership election showed that. It seems to have been rapidly forgotten how bad he was in that contest.

    Plus Truss at least recognises the problem (lack of growth), even if she wasn't hugely competent at fixing it - although she faced resistance from people who should have been neutral.

    Sunak is just flailing around mis-managing decline, and will take his party to a well deserved annihilation. There is no alternative to that now
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,285
    edited September 2023
    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    Cyclefree said:

    darkage said:

    Cyclefree said:

    tlg86 said:
    The arrogance of this. We must not be subject to the same laws that apply to everyone else - even where there is evidence that one of us might have committed a crime.

    And if we don't get our way we'll refuse to do something which may be necessary to keep safe the people we have pledged to serve.
    It isn't arrogant. They aren't walking away from the Met, they are just saying they don't want to be firearms officers. You should only do this job if you accept the proposition that one error of judgement can lead you spending the rest of your life in prison. I would guess it will be difficult to find competent people to do this work after these events.


    The test for murder is much higher than a simple error of judgment. This is the test the CPS applies before deciding to charge -

    1. Is there sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction? If the answer is yes, then the next question is:

    2. Is a prosecution required in the public interest?

    What these officers are in effect saying is that the CPS should not apply this test.

    Now I have quite a lot of sympathy for armed police officers having to make a split second decision about whether to shoot someone. There have been quite a few such shootings in recent years - in some cases in terrorist incidents as well as in ordinary crimes. But if the evidence for a murder charge is there, the police officers' argument seems to be that it should not be in the public interest for them to be prosecuted. And that means that those charged with implementing and upholding the law should, ipso facto, be excused from following the same laws as the rest of us.

    That is a pretty dangerous precedent to set.
    Don't the CPS also have to consider the suspect to be guilty? My police officer friend is concerned that they are taking the easy option of letting a jury decide.

    I have no idea if this is the protocol in such cases, but I think all serving armed police officers should have the right to review the evidence including any camera footage that has been used by the CPS to come to the decision to charge. That might be unusual, but they are in an unusual job and have the right to know what will get them charged with murder.
    No, they have to consider that there’s a prima facile case against an individual with a reasonable change of conviction.
    It is absolutely not up to them to consider anyone guilty.

    Of course the jury decides - that’s how our system of justice works.
    You police friend ought to understand that.
    The point about the CPS testing cases in court was my point not his. A few years ago I countered criticism on here of the CPS for poor conviction rates by saying precisely what you said. That is, you can never be certain of a conviction, a not guilty verdict isn't the end of the world. And someone on here told me that that CPS is not allowed to do that.

    My friend's concern is that the powers that be don't have backbone and will just leave it to the jury to say not guilty. That way, no one can complain.

    I think we don't know enough details to judge. I do think the serving officers should have the right to see the evidence to know what the situation is. I have no idea if that has actually happened.
    That’s better expressed, at least.

    You’re perhaps right that we don’t have enough details to judge whether, or how much the bar for bringing a prosecution might have moved.
    Given the very small numbers of such cases, there isn’t much data to go on.

    But it’s equally possible that previously cases were not being brought when they should have been. What it clear from years of other evidence is that we can’t just accept that the police are in the right on this.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,305
    On the 'nutrient neutrality blocking housebuilding' the government, undeterred by their recent failure to legislate over this issue, are going to try again. The idea seems to be a new bill that essentially partially revokes the EU's habitats directive, which is now domestic law.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/23/rishi-sunak-majority-140k-homes-labour-nutrient-neutrality/

    What doesn't make sense about all this is that a) they don't need to revoke the habitats regulations to solve this problem, and b) it ends their long term argument that there will not scrap EU derived environmental rules. It is in line with the general theme of desperation.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,732
    Some very pertinent points in the discussion above.

    In addition to which, after Johnson and Truss, there isn’t any benefit of the doubt left, and wouldn’t be for any replacement. It’s all been used up, and some.
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 989
    edited September 2023
    Penddu2 said:

    I am exhausted after watching the Ireland South Africa game - completely enthralling. I predicted a South Africa win but it could have gone either way.

    In this weekends games I also predicted a Samoa win (Fail) and a Wales win (oh $hit...).

    A brilliant RWC so far....

    Bet both Ireland and RSA are glad that England weren't in their group......
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    edited September 2023
    Gasman said:

    He's definitely worse than Truss - the leadership election showed that. It seems to have been rapidly forgotten how bad he was in that contest.

    Plus Truss at least recognises the problem (lack of growth), even if she wasn't hugely competent at fixing it - although she faced resistance from people who should have been neutral.

    Sunak is just flailing around mis-managing decline, and will take his party to a well deserved annihilation. There is no alternative to that now

    Indeed.

    It's quite something when you consider that in the General Election campaign he will most likely make Keir Starmer look brilliant.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,285

    Gutting HS2 so there's money to spare for an inheritance tax cut, uniting the Green Party and the Ford Motor Company in opposition to his backsliding on Net Zero... Sunak really is the absolute worst..

    Impossible to make so definitive a statement.
    Change PMs again - even bring back one of previous failures - and it might be worse still.

    The vice of today’s Tories is that they think “rolling the dice” is a reasonable strategy. It is profoundly unconservative.

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    Cyclefree said:

    darkage said:

    Cyclefree said:

    tlg86 said:
    The arrogance of this. We must not be subject to the same laws that apply to everyone else - even where there is evidence that one of us might have committed a crime.

    And if we don't get our way we'll refuse to do something which may be necessary to keep safe the people we have pledged to serve.
    It isn't arrogant. They aren't walking away from the Met, they are just saying they don't want to be firearms officers. You should only do this job if you accept the proposition that one error of judgement can lead you spending the rest of your life in prison. I would guess it will be difficult to find competent people to do this work after these events.


    The test for murder is much higher than a simple error of judgment. This is the test the CPS applies before deciding to charge -

    1. Is there sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction? If the answer is yes, then the next question is:

    2. Is a prosecution required in the public interest?

    What these officers are in effect saying is that the CPS should not apply this test.

    Now I have quite a lot of sympathy for armed police officers having to make a split second decision about whether to shoot someone. There have been quite a few such shootings in recent years - in some cases in terrorist incidents as well as in ordinary crimes. But if the evidence for a murder charge is there, the police officers' argument seems to be that it should not be in the public interest for them to be prosecuted. And that means that those charged with implementing and upholding the law should, ipso facto, be excused from following the same laws as the rest of us.

    That is a pretty dangerous precedent to set.
    Don't the CPS also have to consider the suspect to be guilty? My police officer friend is concerned that they are taking the easy option of letting a jury decide.

    I have no idea if this is the protocol in such cases, but I think all serving armed police officers should have the right to review the evidence including any camera footage that has been used by the CPS to come to the decision to charge. That might be unusual, but they are in an unusual job and have the right to know what will get them charged with murder.
    No, they have to consider that there’s a prima facile case against an individual with a reasonable change of conviction.
    It is absolutely not up to them to consider anyone guilty.

    Of course the jury decides - that’s how our system of justice works.
    You police friend ought to understand that.
    The point about the CPS testing cases in court was my point not his. A few years ago I countered criticism on here of the CPS for poor conviction rates by saying precisely what you said. That is, you can never be certain of a conviction, a not guilty verdict isn't the end of the world. And someone on here told me that that CPS is not allowed to do that.

    My friend's concern is that the powers that be don't have backbone and will just leave it to the jury to say not guilty. That way, no one can complain.

    I think we don't know enough details to judge. I do think the serving officers should have the right to see the evidence to know what the situation is. I have no idea if that has actually happened.
    That’s better expressed, at least.

    You’re perhaps right that we don’t have enough details to judge whether, or how much the bar for bringing a prosecution might have moved.
    Given the very small numbers of such cases, there isn’t much data to go on.

    But it’s equally possible that previously cases were not being brought when they should have been. What it clear from years of other evidence is that we can’t just accept that the police are in the right on this.
    Equally, you can’t force police officers to carry guns.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,706
    edited September 2023
    I think maybe one difficult thing for Sunak is that whereas Johnson was a manipulative liar he also (somehow) retained the reputation of being jolly and lovable, and while Truss was dangerously incompetent she didn't come across as malicious or personally unpleasant, Sunak lacks the human touch and can appear arrogant and abrasive.

    So the danger may be that he is perceived not only as a dangerous, incompetent liar, but also a rather nasty piece of work. Who grins a lot.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,285
    Talking of screeching U-turns.

    McCarthy backtracks, says he will keep Ukraine aid in Pentagon funding bill
    https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4220034-mccarthy-backtracks-says-he-will-keep-ukraine-aid-in-pentagon-funding-bill/
  • The plan to abolish inheritance tax reminds me of Corbyn’s pledge to abolish tuition fees. With that and the dicking about with net zero, he’s recognisably as reckless and irresponsible as Corbyn. He deserves the same fate.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,305
    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    Cyclefree said:

    darkage said:

    Cyclefree said:

    tlg86 said:
    The arrogance of this. We must not be subject to the same laws that apply to everyone else - even where there is evidence that one of us might have committed a crime.

    And if we don't get our way we'll refuse to do something which may be necessary to keep safe the people we have pledged to serve.
    It isn't arrogant. They aren't walking away from the Met, they are just saying they don't want to be firearms officers. You should only do this job if you accept the proposition that one error of judgement can lead you spending the rest of your life in prison. I would guess it will be difficult to find competent people to do this work after these events.


    The test for murder is much higher than a simple error of judgment. This is the test the CPS applies before deciding to charge -

    1. Is there sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction? If the answer is yes, then the next question is:

    2. Is a prosecution required in the public interest?

    What these officers are in effect saying is that the CPS should not apply this test.

    Now I have quite a lot of sympathy for armed police officers having to make a split second decision about whether to shoot someone. There have been quite a few such shootings in recent years - in some cases in terrorist incidents as well as in ordinary crimes. But if the evidence for a murder charge is there, the police officers' argument seems to be that it should not be in the public interest for them to be prosecuted. And that means that those charged with implementing and upholding the law should, ipso facto, be excused from following the same laws as the rest of us.

    That is a pretty dangerous precedent to set.
    Don't the CPS also have to consider the suspect to be guilty? My police officer friend is concerned that they are taking the easy option of letting a jury decide.

    I have no idea if this is the protocol in such cases, but I think all serving armed police officers should have the right to review the evidence including any camera footage that has been used by the CPS to come to the decision to charge. That might be unusual, but they are in an unusual job and have the right to know what will get them charged with murder.
    No, they have to consider that there’s a prima facile case against an individual with a reasonable change of conviction.
    It is absolutely not up to them to consider anyone guilty.

    Of course the jury decides - that’s how our system of justice works.
    You police friend ought to understand that.
    The point about the CPS testing cases in court was my point not his. A few years ago I countered criticism on here of the CPS for poor conviction rates by saying precisely what you said. That is, you can never be certain of a conviction, a not guilty verdict isn't the end of the world. And someone on here told me that that CPS is not allowed to do that.

    My friend's concern is that the powers that be don't have backbone and will just leave it to the jury to say not guilty. That way, no one can complain.

    I think we don't know enough details to judge. I do think the serving officers should have the right to see the evidence to know what the situation is. I have no idea if that has actually happened.
    That’s better expressed, at least.

    You’re perhaps right that we don’t have enough details to judge whether, or how much the bar for bringing a prosecution might have moved.
    Given the very small numbers of such cases, there isn’t much data to go on.

    But it’s equally possible that previously cases were not being brought when they should have been. What it clear from years of other evidence is that we can’t just accept that the police are in the right on this.
    On this discussion- I don't think you can just say it is a completely technical issue for the CPS divorced from politics. The 'George Floyd' episode unleashed forces that the state cannot manage. The most rational response in this situation is for the state to just let the case run to its conclusion, ie a jury trial.

    I have no idea how you find competent people to join the police given the level of risk the police are exposed to and the low pay. Judging by the comments on this website a lot of posters earn far more money than serving police officers and are exposed to none of the risks.

    One of my past managers had a daughter who was in the police, she quit after a few years to become a manager at Aldi, where her pay was doubled.
  • The plan to abolish inheritance tax reminds me of Corbyn’s pledge to abolish tuition fees. With that and the dicking about with net zero, he’s recognisably as reckless and irresponsible as Corbyn. He deserves the same fate.

    If they did get rid of inheritance tax it would make its replacement fair game. Time to move it on to the recipient, I suggest something like a lifetime allowance of £100k tax free, next £200k @ 15%, anything more @ 40%.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,780
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    One of the few things that gone well in Britain has been the cross-party consensus on the need for action on climate change. It was nowhere near enough but it was something. The little shit has chucked all of that in the midden because he thinks there's chance it might give the tories an extra ten seats in opposition. Pathetic and despicable in equal measure.
    Yes, he’s taking the electorate for fools, and they can see it.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,315

    Gasman said:

    He's definitely worse than Truss - the leadership election showed that. It seems to have been rapidly forgotten how bad he was in that contest.

    Plus Truss at least recognises the problem (lack of growth), even if she wasn't hugely competent at fixing it - although she faced resistance from people who should have been neutral.

    Sunak is just flailing around mis-managing decline, and will take his party to a well deserved annihilation. There is no alternative to that now

    I love the way the Truss-ites think she is the only one who has understood we have had low growth for a long time, and it would be preferable to have higher growth. Quite remarkable.
    Remarkable and yet bar Corbyn who else has put forward an agenda in the last 10 years ?

    Neither Sunak nor Starmer have any meaningful proposals to kick the economy back in to gear.
  • ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    One of the few things that gone well in Britain has been the cross-party consensus on the need for action on climate change. It was nowhere near enough but it was something. The little shit has chucked all of that in the midden because he thinks there's chance it might give the tories an extra ten seats in opposition. Pathetic and despicable in equal measure.
    And also very stupid. A proper green energy policy to wean us off, or at least dramatically reduce, our dependence on oil and gas from abroad would (a) clean up our environment (b) shaft the Saudi, Venezuelan and Russian governments and (c) do wonders for our balance of payments.

    It's deeply disturbing that a man who is clearly not himself completely stupid can't see that.
    It requires considerable brainpower to ignore an elephant in the room. Especially when it starts doing what the elephant on Blue Peter did.

    Thatcher, I'm pretty sure, would have got it, and had enough Victorian thrift about her to spend the necessary now to save in the future.

    Sunak- like Truss, a Thatcherite who is too young to really remember Thatcher- gives off vibes of that cartoon with the shabby executive saying "Yes, we destroyed the planet. But on the bright side, we did create a lot of shareholder value."
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    One of the few things that gone well in Britain has been the cross-party consensus on the need for action on climate change. It was nowhere near enough but it was something. The little shit has chucked all of that in the midden because he thinks there's chance it might give the tories an extra ten seats in opposition. Pathetic and despicable in equal measure.
    Yes, he’s taking the electorate for fools, and they can see it.
    The problem isn't so much the first- that happens and is arguably an essential part of getting practical politics done.

    Sunak's real problem is the second. Because once members of the public see it, they can't unsee it.
  • eekeek Posts: 27,963
    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    The inability to build HS2 and other projects makes us look incompetent.

    Faffing around with inheritance tax opens up the possibility that not could treated as a capital gain.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,285
    .
    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    One of the few things that gone well in Britain has been the cross-party consensus on the need for action on climate change. It was nowhere near enough but it was something. The little shit has chucked all of that in the midden because he thinks there's chance it might give the tories an extra ten seats in opposition. Pathetic and despicable in equal measure.
    And also very stupid. A proper green energy policy to wean us off, or at least dramatically reduce, our dependence on oil and gas from abroad would (a) clean up our environment (b) shaft the Saudi, Venezuelan and Russian governments and (c) do wonders for our balance of payments.

    It's deeply disturbing that a man who is clearly not himself completely stupid can't see that.
    Worse than that.
    As Dura notes, they’ve ripped up the one long term consensus policy.

    We’re shit at long term planning, and one of the prime reasons is that each incoming set of politicians think they can change the last plan for something better - when the reality is that most of them have little or no expertise regarding their ministerial brief.

    Turning every bit of policy making into a political football ensures it’s going to be bad policy.
    There’s no chance for us ever to start to get better at it.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,603
    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    Cyclefree said:

    darkage said:

    Cyclefree said:

    tlg86 said:
    The arrogance of this. We must not be subject to the same laws that apply to everyone else - even where there is evidence that one of us might have committed a crime.

    And if we don't get our way we'll refuse to do something which may be necessary to keep safe the people we have pledged to serve.
    It isn't arrogant. They aren't walking away from the Met, they are just saying they don't want to be firearms officers. You should only do this job if you accept the proposition that one error of judgement can lead you spending the rest of your life in prison. I would guess it will be difficult to find competent people to do this work after these events.


    The test for murder is much higher than a simple error of judgment. This is the test the CPS applies before deciding to charge -

    1. Is there sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction? If the answer is yes, then the next question is:

    2. Is a prosecution required in the public interest?

    What these officers are in effect saying is that the CPS should not apply this test.

    Now I have quite a lot of sympathy for armed police officers having to make a split second decision about whether to shoot someone. There have been quite a few such shootings in recent years - in some cases in terrorist incidents as well as in ordinary crimes. But if the evidence for a murder charge is there, the police officers' argument seems to be that it should not be in the public interest for them to be prosecuted. And that means that those charged with implementing and upholding the law should, ipso facto, be excused from following the same laws as the rest of us.

    That is a pretty dangerous precedent to set.
    Don't the CPS also have to consider the suspect to be guilty? My police officer friend is concerned that they are taking the easy option of letting a jury decide.

    I have no idea if this is the protocol in such cases, but I think all serving armed police officers should have the right to review the evidence including any camera footage that has been used by the CPS to come to the decision to charge. That might be unusual, but they are in an unusual job and have the right to know what will get them charged with murder.
    No, they have to consider that there’s a prima facile case against an individual with a reasonable change of conviction.
    It is absolutely not up to them to consider anyone guilty.

    Of course the jury decides - that’s how our system of justice works.
    You police friend ought to understand that.
    The point about the CPS testing cases in court was my point not his. A few years ago I countered criticism on here of the CPS for poor conviction rates by saying precisely what you said. That is, you can never be certain of a conviction, a not guilty verdict isn't the end of the world. And someone on here told me that that CPS is not allowed to do that.

    My friend's concern is that the powers that be don't have backbone and will just leave it to the jury to say not guilty. That way, no one can complain.

    I think we don't know enough details to judge. I do think the serving officers should have the right to see the evidence to know what the situation is. I have no idea if that has actually happened.
    Isn't that simply automatic, as part of the disclosure of evidence to the defence? Or am I missing something?

    It's not as if the polis don't know about the existence of the recordings.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,329
    edited September 2023
    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    Cyclefree said:

    darkage said:

    Cyclefree said:

    tlg86 said:
    The arrogance of this. We must not be subject to the same laws that apply to everyone else - even where there is evidence that one of us might have committed a crime.

    And if we don't get our way we'll refuse to do something which may be necessary to keep safe the people we have pledged to serve.
    It isn't arrogant. They aren't walking away from the Met, they are just saying they don't want to be firearms officers. You should only do this job if you accept the proposition that one error of judgement can lead you spending the rest of your life in prison. I would guess it will be difficult to find competent people to do this work after these events.


    The test for murder is much higher than a simple error of judgment. This is the test the CPS applies before deciding to charge -

    1. Is there sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction? If the answer is yes, then the next question is:

    2. Is a prosecution required in the public interest?

    What these officers are in effect saying is that the CPS should not apply this test.

    Now I have quite a lot of sympathy for armed police officers having to make a split second decision about whether to shoot someone. There have been quite a few such shootings in recent years - in some cases in terrorist incidents as well as in ordinary crimes. But if the evidence for a murder charge is there, the police officers' argument seems to be that it should not be in the public interest for them to be prosecuted. And that means that those charged with implementing and upholding the law should, ipso facto, be excused from following the same laws as the rest of us.

    That is a pretty dangerous precedent to set.
    Don't the CPS also have to consider the suspect to be guilty? My police officer friend is concerned that they are taking the easy option of letting a jury decide.

    I have no idea if this is the protocol in such cases, but I think all serving armed police officers should have the right to review the evidence including any camera footage that has been used by the CPS to come to the decision to charge. That might be unusual, but they are in an unusual job and have the right to know what will get them charged with murder.
    No, they have to consider that there’s a prima facile case against an individual with a reasonable change of conviction.
    It is absolutely not up to them to consider anyone guilty.

    Of course the jury decides - that’s how our system of justice works.
    You police friend ought to understand that.
    The point about the CPS testing cases in court was my point not his. A few years ago I countered criticism on here of the CPS for poor conviction rates by saying precisely what you said. That is, you can never be certain of a conviction, a not guilty verdict isn't the end of the world. And someone on here told me that that CPS is not allowed to do that.

    My friend's concern is that the powers that be don't have backbone and will just leave it to the jury to say not guilty. That way, no one can complain.

    I think we don't know enough details to judge. I do think the serving officers should have the right to see the evidence to know what the situation is. I have no idea if that has actually happened.
    No-one in the world of prosecution can go round dishing out evidence to interest groups; that's a non starter. But all the evidence must be served on the defendant, who can in truth do what he likes with it unless a court order prevents it.

    (However it is truth universally acknowledged that it is vanishingly rare for defendants to share the case against them in a prosecution any more than they have to.)

    Finally, all the evidence will be aired in public, unless there is a court order otherwise. Any journalist can make and publish a 100% full transcript by using shorthand.

    No case can get off the ground unless there is on the face of it a case to answer; and the judge can decide that during the trial if it doesn't happen before.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,673
    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    Cyclefree said:

    darkage said:

    Cyclefree said:

    tlg86 said:
    The arrogance of this. We must not be subject to the same laws that apply to everyone else - even where there is evidence that one of us might have committed a crime.

    And if we don't get our way we'll refuse to do something which may be necessary to keep safe the people we have pledged to serve.
    It isn't arrogant. They aren't walking away from the Met, they are just saying they don't want to be firearms officers. You should only do this job if you accept the proposition that one error of judgement can lead you spending the rest of your life in prison. I would guess it will be difficult to find competent people to do this work after these events.


    The test for murder is much higher than a simple error of judgment. This is the test the CPS applies before deciding to charge -

    1. Is there sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction? If the answer is yes, then the next question is:

    2. Is a prosecution required in the public interest?

    What these officers are in effect saying is that the CPS should not apply this test.

    Now I have quite a lot of sympathy for armed police officers having to make a split second decision about whether to shoot someone. There have been quite a few such shootings in recent years - in some cases in terrorist incidents as well as in ordinary crimes. But if the evidence for a murder charge is there, the police officers' argument seems to be that it should not be in the public interest for them to be prosecuted. And that means that those charged with implementing and upholding the law should, ipso facto, be excused from following the same laws as the rest of us.

    That is a pretty dangerous precedent to set.
    Don't the CPS also have to consider the suspect to be guilty? My police officer friend is concerned that they are taking the easy option of letting a jury decide.

    I have no idea if this is the protocol in such cases, but I think all serving armed police officers should have the right to review the evidence including any camera footage that has been used by the CPS to come to the decision to charge. That might be unusual, but they are in an unusual job and have the right to know what will get them charged with murder.
    If you are charged with any crime, the prosecution has to share its evidence with the defence. Are you suggesting something different?

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,097
    Nigelb said:

    .

    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    One of the few things that gone well in Britain has been the cross-party consensus on the need for action on climate change. It was nowhere near enough but it was something. The little shit has chucked all of that in the midden because he thinks there's chance it might give the tories an extra ten seats in opposition. Pathetic and despicable in equal measure.
    And also very stupid. A proper green energy policy to wean us off, or at least dramatically reduce, our dependence on oil and gas from abroad would (a) clean up our environment (b) shaft the Saudi, Venezuelan and Russian governments and (c) do wonders for our balance of payments.

    It's deeply disturbing that a man who is clearly not himself completely stupid can't see that.
    Worse than that.
    As Dura notes, they’ve ripped up the one long term consensus policy.

    We’re shit at long term planning, and one of the prime reasons is that each incoming set of politicians think they can change the last plan for something better - when the reality is that most of them have little or no expertise regarding their ministerial brief.

    Turning every bit of policy making into a political football ensures it’s going to be bad policy.
    There’s no chance for us ever to start to get better at it.
    All true. I would add - nor do the civil service have any expertise.
  • Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    Liked by a bunch of Lefties, all the usual suspects I see.

    Look at the YouGov polling on the issue.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    Fair points on evidence being shared with the defence. Perhaps informal channels are open to officers wanting to know what the situation is.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,097
    edited September 2023

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    Liked by a bunch of Lefties, all the usual suspects I see.

    Look at the YouGov polling on the issue.
    Popular rule is not democracy. It gives people what they want, not what they need.*

    Thatcher didn't care about opinion polls and achieved things (leaving aside, for the moment, the debate on whether they were the right things). Her successors focus group every bloody thing and have left us 20-30 years behind where we need to be on infrastructure and power generation, and indeed just about everything else - health and education spring to mind.

    *Genuine gold star for anyone who identifies where that is quoted from.
  • Nigelb said:

    .

    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    One of the few things that gone well in Britain has been the cross-party consensus on the need for action on climate change. It was nowhere near enough but it was something. The little shit has chucked all of that in the midden because he thinks there's chance it might give the tories an extra ten seats in opposition. Pathetic and despicable in equal measure.
    And also very stupid. A proper green energy policy to wean us off, or at least dramatically reduce, our dependence on oil and gas from abroad would (a) clean up our environment (b) shaft the Saudi, Venezuelan and Russian governments and (c) do wonders for our balance of payments.

    It's deeply disturbing that a man who is clearly not himself completely stupid can't see that.
    Worse than that.
    As Dura notes, they’ve ripped up the one long term consensus policy.

    We’re shit at long term planning, and one of the prime reasons is that each incoming set of politicians think they can change the last plan for something better - when the reality is that most of them have little or no expertise regarding their ministerial brief.

    Turning every bit of policy making into a political football ensures it’s going to be bad policy.
    There’s no chance for us ever to start to get better at it.
    But if we have a consensus, there's no opportunity for a Debate. And if we don't have a Debate with speeches, winners and losers, what's Debating Soc The Union Westminster for?
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    One of the few things that gone well in Britain has been the cross-party consensus on the need for action on climate change. It was nowhere near enough but it was something. The little shit has chucked all of that in the midden because he thinks there's chance it might give the tories an extra ten seats in opposition. Pathetic and despicable in equal measure.
    Liked by an even wider bunch of Lefties.

    Rishi has simply extended a deadline to match the EU, whilst keeping the NZ target, something that passed entirely uncommented on by you when the EU did it.

    As usual your invective is entirely synthesised.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,603
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    Liked by a bunch of Lefties, all the usual suspects I see.

    Look at the YouGov polling on the issue.
    Popular rule is not democracy. It gives people what they want, not what they need.

    Thatcher didn't care about opinion polls and achieved things (leaving aside, for the moment, the debate on whether they were the right things). Her successors focus group every bloody thing and have left us 20-30 years behind where we need to be on infrastructure and power generation, and indeed just about everything else - health and education spring to mind.
    Mr Sunak would, presumably, have been too obsessed with focus groups and the prospect of the Daily Mail headlines "Hands Off Our Deodorant Aerosols" to do anything about the ozone hole.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,388
    More evidence for HS2 as a cycle commute lane:

    https://twitter.com/HarryHamishGray/status/1705681106400317727?t=QaVtaPfKNaqZ-oMHu-49rQ&s=19

    And to to think some PBers thought cycling across Edinburgh was too far.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,603

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    One of the few things that gone well in Britain has been the cross-party consensus on the need for action on climate change. It was nowhere near enough but it was something. The little shit has chucked all of that in the midden because he thinks there's chance it might give the tories an extra ten seats in opposition. Pathetic and despicable in equal measure.
    Liked by an even wider bunch of Lefties.

    Rishi has simply extended a deadline to match the EU, whilst keeping the NZ target, something that passed entirely uncommented on by you when the EU did it.

    As usual your invective is entirely synthesised.
    There is rather a lot more to life than Brexit, you know.

    And therte have been *thousands* of posts on PB discussing the petrol to electric transition.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,097
    Eabhal said:

    More evidence for HS2 as a cycle commute lane:

    https://twitter.com/HarryHamishGray/status/1705681106400317727?t=QaVtaPfKNaqZ-oMHu-49rQ&s=19

    And to to think some PBers thought cycling across Edinburgh was too far.

    Since a lot of the infrastructure being created to support HS2 - e.g. access roads - was always intended to be converted into cycle routes anyway, I'm not sure what your point is?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Eabhal said:

    More evidence for HS2 as a cycle commute lane:

    https://twitter.com/HarryHamishGray/status/1705681106400317727?t=QaVtaPfKNaqZ-oMHu-49rQ&s=19

    And to to think some PBers thought cycling across Edinburgh was too far.

    Bordeaux - Paris (560km) used to be a one day classic race until 1988.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,603
    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    More evidence for HS2 as a cycle commute lane:

    https://twitter.com/HarryHamishGray/status/1705681106400317727?t=QaVtaPfKNaqZ-oMHu-49rQ&s=19

    And to to think some PBers thought cycling across Edinburgh was too far.

    Since a lot of the infrastructure being created to support HS2 - e.g. access roads - was always intended to be converted into cycle routes anyway, I'm not sure what your point is?
    You mean the modern equivalent of contractors' temporary narrow gauge railways? That's a very nice idea.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,285

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    Liked by a bunch of Lefties, all the usual suspects I see.

    Look at the YouGov polling on the issue.
    Whatever.
    Your attitude that anyone who doesn’t agree with you is just a leftie sucks. There are plenty in your own party that have criticised the moves.

    And I would have though that you in particular would be disappointed with the HS2 nonsense.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    One of the few things that gone well in Britain has been the cross-party consensus on the need for action on climate change. It was nowhere near enough but it was something. The little shit has chucked all of that in the midden because he thinks there's chance it might give the tories an extra ten seats in opposition. Pathetic and despicable in equal measure.
    Liked by an even wider bunch of Lefties.

    Rishi has simply extended a deadline to match the EU, whilst keeping the NZ target, something that passed entirely uncommented on by you when the EU did it.

    As usual your invective is entirely synthesised.
    But people don't trust Rishi.

    Only 22% of people trust Rishi Sunak to tackle the climate crisis after his announcement that he will weaken the UK’s net zero policies.

    An exclusive poll for the Guardian found that fewer than a quarter of people trust the prime minister to take on the challenge. A total of 53% said they did not trust him, while 19% said they did not know.


    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/sep/23/only-22-percent-of-britons-trust-sunak-on-climate-finds-guardian-poll

    Yes it's for the Grauniad, but We Think are a proper pollster.

    And without trust, a PM is doomed.
  • tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    Cyclefree said:

    darkage said:

    Cyclefree said:

    tlg86 said:
    The arrogance of this. We must not be subject to the same laws that apply to everyone else - even where there is evidence that one of us might have committed a crime.

    And if we don't get our way we'll refuse to do something which may be necessary to keep safe the people we have pledged to serve.
    It isn't arrogant. They aren't walking away from the Met, they are just saying they don't want to be firearms officers. You should only do this job if you accept the proposition that one error of judgement can lead you spending the rest of your life in prison. I would guess it will be difficult to find competent people to do this work after these events.


    The test for murder is much higher than a simple error of judgment. This is the test the CPS applies before deciding to charge -

    1. Is there sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction? If the answer is yes, then the next question is:

    2. Is a prosecution required in the public interest?

    What these officers are in effect saying is that the CPS should not apply this test.

    Now I have quite a lot of sympathy for armed police officers having to make a split second decision about whether to shoot someone. There have been quite a few such shootings in recent years - in some cases in terrorist incidents as well as in ordinary crimes. But if the evidence for a murder charge is there, the police officers' argument seems to be that it should not be in the public interest for them to be prosecuted. And that means that those charged with implementing and upholding the law should, ipso facto, be excused from following the same laws as the rest of us.

    That is a pretty dangerous precedent to set.
    Don't the CPS also have to consider the suspect to be guilty? My police officer friend is concerned that they are taking the easy option of letting a jury decide.

    I have no idea if this is the protocol in such cases, but I think all serving armed police officers should have the right to review the evidence including any camera footage that has been used by the CPS to come to the decision to charge. That might be unusual, but they are in an unusual job and have the right to know what will get them charged with murder.
    It is not the job of the CPS to judge whether or not a defendant is guilty. That is absolutely the job of the jury, and it is disappointing that a police officer does not understand that.

    The CPS will not prosecute a defendant they know to be innocent, in the same way that a barrister cannot defend a defendant if they know the defendant is guilty. However, if the CPS don't have anything that proves the defendant is innocent, it all comes down to whether there is sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction. In other words, is there sufficient evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant is guilty.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,388
    edited September 2023
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    More evidence for HS2 as a cycle commute lane:

    https://twitter.com/HarryHamishGray/status/1705681106400317727?t=QaVtaPfKNaqZ-oMHu-49rQ&s=19

    And to to think some PBers thought cycling across Edinburgh was too far.

    Since a lot of the infrastructure being created to support HS2 - e.g. access roads - was always intended to be converted into cycle routes anyway, I'm not sure what your point is?
    You mean the modern equivalent of contractors' temporary narrow gauge railways? That's a very nice idea.
    Yep, there is some good stuff going on around HS2 (new wetlands in particular).

    Hopefully the stations and rolling stock will anticipate increased rates of cycling too.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,238
    edited September 2023

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    Liked by a bunch of Lefties, all the usual suspects I see.

    Look at the YouGov polling on the issue.
    I'd describe those who liked Nigelb's comment as PB's Centrist Dads rather than PB's Lefties.

    Which is exactly Sunak's problem. Because Centrist Dads voted for Cameron, and if you look at the YouGov polling - the very same polling highlighted by OGH in his previous header - they were initially prepared to give Sunak the benefit of the doubt. Now they're not.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,315

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    One of the few things that gone well in Britain has been the cross-party consensus on the need for action on climate change. It was nowhere near enough but it was something. The little shit has chucked all of that in the midden because he thinks there's chance it might give the tories an extra ten seats in opposition. Pathetic and despicable in equal measure.
    Liked by an even wider bunch of Lefties.

    Rishi has simply extended a deadline to match the EU, whilst keeping the NZ target, something that passed entirely uncommented on by you when the EU did it.

    As usual your invective is entirely synthesised.
    But people don't trust Rishi.

    Only 22% of people trust Rishi Sunak to tackle the climate crisis after his announcement that he will weaken the UK’s net zero policies.

    An exclusive poll for the Guardian found that fewer than a quarter of people trust the prime minister to take on the challenge. A total of 53% said they did not trust him, while 19% said they did not know.


    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/sep/23/only-22-percent-of-britons-trust-sunak-on-climate-finds-guardian-poll

    Yes it's for the Grauniad, but We Think are a proper pollster.

    And without trust, a PM is doomed.
    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/politicians-are-the-worst-ever-say-one-in-three-voters/ar-AA1ha4e3

    Why should he worry ?

    Trust in politicians is no longer a thing.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,285

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    Liked by a bunch of Lefties, all the usual suspects I see.

    Look at the YouGov polling on the issue.
    I'd describe those who liked Nigelb's comment as PB's Centrist Dads rather than PB's Lefties.

    Which is exactly Sunak's problem. Because Centrist Dads voted for Cameron, and if you look at the YouGov polling on the issue - the very same polling highlighted by @TheScreamingEagles in his previous header - they were initially prepared to give Sunak the benefit of the doubt. Now they're not.
    Casino is in a defensive crouch. I get that; it’s demoralising when the party you support fucks up spectacularly and with regularity.

    But it’s very obvious that criticisms of government policy cross the political spectrum.
    Here’s today’s example.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/23/rishi-sunak-pushes-to-axe-northern-hs2-rail-line-ahead-of-tory-conference
    … Rishi Sunak is facing a huge backlash from senior Tories and business leaders amid signs he is ready to scrap the northern section of the HS2 high speed rail line before the Conservative conference opens in Manchester next weekend...
  • Carnyx said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    One of the few things that gone well in Britain has been the cross-party consensus on the need for action on climate change. It was nowhere near enough but it was something. The little shit has chucked all of that in the midden because he thinks there's chance it might give the tories an extra ten seats in opposition. Pathetic and despicable in equal measure.
    Liked by an even wider bunch of Lefties.

    Rishi has simply extended a deadline to match the EU, whilst keeping the NZ target, something that passed entirely uncommented on by you when the EU did it.

    As usual your invective is entirely synthesised.
    There is rather a lot more to life than Brexit, you know.

    And therte have been *thousands* of posts on PB discussing the petrol to electric transition.
    I didn't mention Brexit.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,097
    edited September 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    Liked by a bunch of Lefties, all the usual suspects I see.

    Look at the YouGov polling on the issue.
    I'd describe those who liked Nigelb's comment as PB's Centrist Dads rather than PB's Lefties.

    Which is exactly Sunak's problem. Because Centrist Dads voted for Cameron, and if you look at the YouGov polling on the issue - the very same polling highlighted by @TheScreamingEagles in his previous header - they were initially prepared to give Sunak the benefit of the doubt. Now they're not.
    Casino is in a defensive crouch. I get that; it’s demoralising when the party you support fucks up spectacularly and with regularity.

    But it’s very obvious that criticisms of government policy cross the political spectrum.
    Here’s today’s example.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/23/rishi-sunak-pushes-to-axe-northern-hs2-rail-line-ahead-of-tory-conference
    … Rishi Sunak is facing a huge backlash from senior Tories and business leaders amid signs he is ready to scrap the northern section of the HS2 high speed rail line before the Conservative conference opens in Manchester next weekend...
    Perhaps they should all sing Flanders and Swann's Slow Train at him...

    Edit - on that subject this is a brilliant piece of work by a YouTuber:

    https://youtu.be/zTFcN8RsJbs?si=vxjTKu_YtUCMr5xV
  • Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    Liked by a bunch of Lefties, all the usual suspects I see.

    Look at the YouGov polling on the issue.
    I'd describe those who liked Nigelb's comment as PB's Centrist Dads rather than PB's Lefties.

    Which is exactly Sunak's problem. Because Centrist Dads voted for Cameron, and if you look at the YouGov polling - the very same polling highlighted by OGH in his previous header - they were initially prepared to give Sunak the benefit of the doubt. Now they're not.
    Er, no. The Woodpecker, Heathener, IanB2, El Capitano, Foxy...

    All the usual suspects. None of them are centrists in the slightest.

    And then on DuraAce's characteristic unpleasantness you also have MexicanPete, NorthernMonkey and Carnyx. They may support Labour, LDs or the SNP but they are all of a type.

    This site has become a haven for Lefties. It's what it is now.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,222

    I have insomnia.

    Just as well there was a Grand Prix to watch at 6am!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,603

    Carnyx said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    One of the few things that gone well in Britain has been the cross-party consensus on the need for action on climate change. It was nowhere near enough but it was something. The little shit has chucked all of that in the midden because he thinks there's chance it might give the tories an extra ten seats in opposition. Pathetic and despicable in equal measure.
    Liked by an even wider bunch of Lefties.

    Rishi has simply extended a deadline to match the EU, whilst keeping the NZ target, something that passed entirely uncommented on by you when the EU did it.

    As usual your invective is entirely synthesised.
    There is rather a lot more to life than Brexit, you know.

    And therte have been *thousands* of posts on PB discussing the petrol to electric transition.
    I didn't mention Brexit.
    You did, in terms of the link to the EU (which wouldn't have been an issue before).
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123

    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    Cyclefree said:

    darkage said:

    Cyclefree said:

    tlg86 said:
    The arrogance of this. We must not be subject to the same laws that apply to everyone else - even where there is evidence that one of us might have committed a crime.

    And if we don't get our way we'll refuse to do something which may be necessary to keep safe the people we have pledged to serve.
    It isn't arrogant. They aren't walking away from the Met, they are just saying they don't want to be firearms officers. You should only do this job if you accept the proposition that one error of judgement can lead you spending the rest of your life in prison. I would guess it will be difficult to find competent people to do this work after these events.


    The test for murder is much higher than a simple error of judgment. This is the test the CPS applies before deciding to charge -

    1. Is there sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction? If the answer is yes, then the next question is:

    2. Is a prosecution required in the public interest?

    What these officers are in effect saying is that the CPS should not apply this test.

    Now I have quite a lot of sympathy for armed police officers having to make a split second decision about whether to shoot someone. There have been quite a few such shootings in recent years - in some cases in terrorist incidents as well as in ordinary crimes. But if the evidence for a murder charge is there, the police officers' argument seems to be that it should not be in the public interest for them to be prosecuted. And that means that those charged with implementing and upholding the law should, ipso facto, be excused from following the same laws as the rest of us.

    That is a pretty dangerous precedent to set.
    Don't the CPS also have to consider the suspect to be guilty? My police officer friend is concerned that they are taking the easy option of letting a jury decide.

    I have no idea if this is the protocol in such cases, but I think all serving armed police officers should have the right to review the evidence including any camera footage that has been used by the CPS to come to the decision to charge. That might be unusual, but they are in an unusual job and have the right to know what will get them charged with murder.
    It is not the job of the CPS to judge whether or not a defendant is guilty. That is absolutely the job of the jury, and it is disappointing that a police officer does not understand that.

    The CPS will not prosecute a defendant they know to be innocent, in the same way that a barrister cannot defend a defendant if they know the defendant is guilty. However, if the CPS don't have anything that proves the defendant is innocent, it all comes down to whether there is sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction. In other words, is there sufficient evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant is guilty.
    I think where a case like this gets tricky is that the CPS have to judge whether or not it was a reasonable action to take as per their job. Apparently the case is going to be heard next September so a bit of a wait to find out to hear the evidence. Hearing this week to determine if the officer gets to keep their anonymity.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,603

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    Liked by a bunch of Lefties, all the usual suspects I see.

    Look at the YouGov polling on the issue.
    I'd describe those who liked Nigelb's comment as PB's Centrist Dads rather than PB's Lefties.

    Which is exactly Sunak's problem. Because Centrist Dads voted for Cameron, and if you look at the YouGov polling - the very same polling highlighted by OGH in his previous header - they were initially prepared to give Sunak the benefit of the doubt. Now they're not.
    Er, no. The Woodpecker, Heathener, IanB2, El Capitano, Foxy...

    All the usual suspects. None of them are centrists in the slightest.

    And then on DuraAce's characteristic unpleasantness you also have MexicanPete, NorthernMonkey and Carnyx. They may support Labour, LDs or the SNP but they are all of a type.

    This site has become a haven for Lefties. It's what it is now.
    Only if you think the window has shifted far to the right. Which, admittedly, it has.
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    Liked by a bunch of Lefties, all the usual suspects I see.

    Look at the YouGov polling on the issue.
    I'd describe those who liked Nigelb's comment as PB's Centrist Dads rather than PB's Lefties.

    Which is exactly Sunak's problem. Because Centrist Dads voted for Cameron, and if you look at the YouGov polling on the issue - the very same polling highlighted by @TheScreamingEagles in his previous header - they were initially prepared to give Sunak the benefit of the doubt. Now they're not.
    Casino is in a defensive crouch. I get that; it’s demoralising when the party you support fucks up spectacularly and with regularity.

    But it’s very obvious that criticisms of government policy cross the political spectrum.
    Here’s today’s example.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/23/rishi-sunak-pushes-to-axe-northern-hs2-rail-line-ahead-of-tory-conference
    … Rishi Sunak is facing a huge backlash from senior Tories and business leaders amid signs he is ready to scrap the northern section of the HS2 high speed rail line before the Conservative conference opens in Manchester next weekend...
    No, it's just this site has become an echo chamber for only one point of view now and the hyperbole and invective is entirely performative.

    Anyone pointing out that the modified policy is more popular than the original simply draws that herd their way, which is why virtually all others have given up and deserted the site.

    It doesn't bother me, I like a fight, but you can understand why most simply can't be bothered.
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    Liked by a bunch of Lefties, all the usual suspects I see.

    Look at the YouGov polling on the issue.
    Whatever.
    Your attitude that anyone who doesn’t agree with you is just a leftie sucks. There are plenty in your own party that have criticised the moves.

    And I would have though that you in particular would be disappointed with the HS2 nonsense.
    Remember the Era of Jez?

    How Centre-left-ist Dads were advised to f#£&@ off and join the Tories?

    And how a decisive number of them took that advice in 2019?
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    One of the few things that gone well in Britain has been the cross-party consensus on the need for action on climate change. It was nowhere near enough but it was something. The little shit has chucked all of that in the midden because he thinks there's chance it might give the tories an extra ten seats in opposition. Pathetic and despicable in equal measure.
    Liked by an even wider bunch of Lefties.

    Rishi has simply extended a deadline to match the EU, whilst keeping the NZ target, something that passed entirely uncommented on by you when the EU did it.

    As usual your invective is entirely synthesised.
    But people don't trust Rishi.

    Only 22% of people trust Rishi Sunak to tackle the climate crisis after his announcement that he will weaken the UK’s net zero policies.

    An exclusive poll for the Guardian found that fewer than a quarter of people trust the prime minister to take on the challenge. A total of 53% said they did not trust him, while 19% said they did not know.


    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/sep/23/only-22-percent-of-britons-trust-sunak-on-climate-finds-guardian-poll

    Yes it's for the Grauniad, but We Think are a proper pollster.

    And without trust, a PM is doomed.
    Trust is almost entirely divorced from support for policy prescriptions; it's based upon how you feel about the politician overall and how well he/she is doing.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,238
    edited September 2023

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    Liked by a bunch of Lefties, all the usual suspects I see.

    Look at the YouGov polling on the issue.
    I'd describe those who liked Nigelb's comment as PB's Centrist Dads rather than PB's Lefties.

    Which is exactly Sunak's problem. Because Centrist Dads voted for Cameron, and if you look at the YouGov polling - the very same polling highlighted by OGH in his previous header - they were initially prepared to give Sunak the benefit of the doubt. Now they're not.
    Er, no. The Woodpecker, Heathener, IanB2, El Capitano, Foxy...

    All the usual suspects. None of them are centrists in the slightest.

    And then on DuraAce's characteristic unpleasantness you also have MexicanPete, NorthernMonkey and Carnyx. They may support Labour, LDs or the SNP but they are all of a type.

    This site has become a haven for Lefties. It's what it is now.
    Entirely your call. But if you're now describing a truckload of paid-up LibDems (of whom I'm one) as "Lefties" and not "centrists in the slightest" then that perhaps illustrates the current bunker mentality of the Conservatives and their supporters.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,603

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    Liked by a bunch of Lefties, all the usual suspects I see.

    Look at the YouGov polling on the issue.
    I'd describe those who liked Nigelb's comment as PB's Centrist Dads rather than PB's Lefties.

    Which is exactly Sunak's problem. Because Centrist Dads voted for Cameron, and if you look at the YouGov polling - the very same polling highlighted by OGH in his previous header - they were initially prepared to give Sunak the benefit of the doubt. Now they're not.
    Er, no. The Woodpecker, Heathener, IanB2, El Capitano, Foxy...

    All the usual suspects. None of them are centrists in the slightest.

    And then on DuraAce's characteristic unpleasantness you also have MexicanPete, NorthernMonkey and Carnyx. They may support Labour, LDs or the SNP but they are all of a type.

    This site has become a haven for Lefties. It's what it is now.
    Entirely your call. But if you're now describing a truckload of paid-up LibDems (of whom I'm one) as "Lefties" and not "centrists in the slightest" then that perhaps illustrates the current bunker mentality of the Conservatives and their supporters.
    Ditto here.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,388
    edited September 2023

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    Liked by a bunch of Lefties, all the usual suspects I see.

    Look at the YouGov polling on the issue.
    I'd describe those who liked Nigelb's comment as PB's Centrist Dads rather than PB's Lefties.

    Which is exactly Sunak's problem. Because Centrist Dads voted for Cameron, and if you look at the YouGov polling on the issue - the very same polling highlighted by @TheScreamingEagles in his previous header - they were initially prepared to give Sunak the benefit of the doubt. Now they're not.
    Casino is in a defensive crouch. I get that; it’s demoralising when the party you support fucks up spectacularly and with regularity.

    But it’s very obvious that criticisms of government policy cross the political spectrum.
    Here’s today’s example.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/23/rishi-sunak-pushes-to-axe-northern-hs2-rail-line-ahead-of-tory-conference
    … Rishi Sunak is facing a huge backlash from senior Tories and business leaders amid signs he is ready to scrap the northern section of the HS2 high speed rail line before the Conservative conference opens in Manchester next weekend...
    No, it's just this site has become an echo chamber for only one point of view now and the hyperbole and invective is entirely performative.

    Anyone pointing out that the modified policy is more popular than the original simply draws that herd their way, which is why virtually all others have given up and deserted the site.

    It doesn't bother me, I like a fight, but you can understand why most simply can't be bothered.
    You can be a righty and still think the decision on HS2 and Net Zero is wrong.

    Both are longstanding Conservative policies (and the basis upon which some people voted for Johnson in 2019 given they were in the manifesto).
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    Liked by a bunch of Lefties, all the usual suspects I see.

    Look at the YouGov polling on the issue.
    Whatever.
    Your attitude that anyone who doesn’t agree with you is just a leftie sucks. There are plenty in your own party that have criticised the moves.

    And I would have though that you in particular would be disappointed with the HS2 nonsense.
    All the Herd are non-Tories and anti-Tories who all espouse similar views. All of 'em.

    I have made clear my disappointment on HS2 on here multiple times - in fact, when I did so I even got a couple of extra likes from your lot because they thought I was having a dig at Rishi and wanted to cheer it - and you'll hate that because it doesn't make me the partisan bogeyman you'd like me to be.

    You should think for yourself; not be a sheep.
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    Liked by a bunch of Lefties, all the usual suspects I see.

    Look at the YouGov polling on the issue.
    Whatever.
    Your attitude that anyone who doesn’t agree with you is just a leftie sucks. There are plenty in your own party that have criticised the moves.

    And I would have though that you in particular would be disappointed with the HS2 nonsense.
    Remember the Era of Jez?

    How Centre-left-ist Dads were advised to f#£&@ off and join the Tories?

    And how a decisive number of them took that advice in 2019?
    The Corbynistas also used to argue that his policies were very popular, even as Labour sunk to its worst electoral defeat since 1935.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,732

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    Liked by a bunch of Lefties, all the usual suspects I see.

    Look at the YouGov polling on the issue.
    I'd describe those who liked Nigelb's comment as PB's Centrist Dads rather than PB's Lefties.

    Which is exactly Sunak's problem. Because Centrist Dads voted for Cameron, and if you look at the YouGov polling - the very same polling highlighted by OGH in his previous header - they were initially prepared to give Sunak the benefit of the doubt. Now they're not.
    Er, no. The Woodpecker, Heathener, IanB2, El Capitano, Foxy...

    All the usual suspects. None of them are centrists in the slightest.

    And then on DuraAce's characteristic unpleasantness you also have MexicanPete, NorthernMonkey and Carnyx. They may support Labour, LDs or the SNP but they are all of a type.

    This site has become a haven for Lefties. It's what it is now.
    I’m very centrist, it just doesn’t look like it from your faraway vantage point.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,305
    edited September 2023

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    Liked by a bunch of Lefties, all the usual suspects I see.

    Look at the YouGov polling on the issue.
    I'd describe those who liked Nigelb's comment as PB's Centrist Dads rather than PB's Lefties.

    Which is exactly Sunak's problem. Because Centrist Dads voted for Cameron, and if you look at the YouGov polling - the very same polling highlighted by OGH in his previous header - they were initially prepared to give Sunak the benefit of the doubt. Now they're not.
    Er, no. The Woodpecker, Heathener, IanB2, El Capitano, Foxy...

    All the usual suspects. None of them are centrists in the slightest.

    And then on DuraAce's characteristic unpleasantness you also have MexicanPete, NorthernMonkey and Carnyx. They may support Labour, LDs or the SNP but they are all of a type.

    This site has become a haven for Lefties. It's what it is now.
    We've had this discussion a few times before. Essentially the 'progressive' element have a greater fondness for the 'like' button than more conservative posters. They interpret this as validation of their belief that history is unfolding the correct way, which is a harmless and amusing delusion.

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,682
    ydoethur said:

    Popular rule is not democracy. It gives people what they want, not what they need.*

    *Genuine gold star for anyone who identifies where that is quoted from.

    As it's PB, I'd say Terry Pratchett. A quick google makes me think it was Steve Jobs. Outside guesses include Winston Churchill and Karl Rove.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,097

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    Liked by a bunch of Lefties, all the usual suspects I see.

    Look at the YouGov polling on the issue.
    Whatever.
    Your attitude that anyone who doesn’t agree with you is just a leftie sucks. There are plenty in your own party that have criticised the moves.

    And I would have though that you in particular would be disappointed with the HS2 nonsense.
    Remember the Era of Jez?

    How Centre-left-ist Dads were advised to f#£&@ off and join the Tories?

    And how a decisive number of them took that advice in 2019?
    The Corbynistas also used to argue that his policies were very popular, even as Labour sunk to its worst electoral defeat since 1935.

    It is worth remembering that even in 2017 according to the poll The Jezziah used to push on us just 56% of Labour's voters agreed with Labour's actual policies.
  • IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    Liked by a bunch of Lefties, all the usual suspects I see.

    Look at the YouGov polling on the issue.
    I'd describe those who liked Nigelb's comment as PB's Centrist Dads rather than PB's Lefties.

    Which is exactly Sunak's problem. Because Centrist Dads voted for Cameron, and if you look at the YouGov polling - the very same polling highlighted by OGH in his previous header - they were initially prepared to give Sunak the benefit of the doubt. Now they're not.
    Er, no. The Woodpecker, Heathener, IanB2, El Capitano, Foxy...

    All the usual suspects. None of them are centrists in the slightest.

    And then on DuraAce's characteristic unpleasantness you also have MexicanPete, NorthernMonkey and Carnyx. They may support Labour, LDs or the SNP but they are all of a type.

    This site has become a haven for Lefties. It's what it is now.
    I’m very centrist, it just doesn’t look like it from your faraway vantage point.
    It's very common for people who are rather left-wing - like you, who've never said anything remotely centre-right on here in your whole life - to proclaim and position themselves as centrists because they want to appear moderate so they get a wider audience and more traction for their views.

    It doesn't make it true.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,097
    edited September 2023
    viewcode said:

    ydoethur said:

    Popular rule is not democracy. It gives people what they want, not what they need.*

    *Genuine gold star for anyone who identifies where that is quoted from.

    As it's PB, I'd say Terry Pratchett. A quick google makes me think it was Steve Jobs. Outside guesses include Winston Churchill and Karl Rove.

    And all of those would be wrong.

    It really is peak geek if anyone gets it.

    (Terry Pratchett is closer. It was sci-fi/fantasy.)
  • Tough decisions disappoint and challenge your base, they are not designed to appeal to them.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,041
    Given inflation has fallen from the levels Sunak inherited, the economy is growing again and interest rates are stabilising he is actually doing a relatively good result compared to what he inherited. The Tory poll rating is also higher than what Truss left even if still lower than what it was under Johnson.

    47% of voters approving of Sunak's plans to delay or cancel the net zero plans is even higher than the 2019 Conservative voteshare let alone the current one so clearly was a relatively popular policy. As for an inheritance tax cut proposal that will go down well with the Tory core vote in the Home counties and West London and the bluewall Sunak gets on side, more and more of whom are over the OHG threshold. Included in the manifesto it will be an incentive to vote Tory again.

    If you agree with David Herdson however that the priority is yet higher public spending not tax cuts then you will almost certainly be voting Labour anyway.

    Sunak is on the right track and with Boris having left the Commons now there is no viable alternative to him as Tory leader before the next general election
  • darkage said:

    Nigelb said:

    He's not worse than Truss or Johnson. Both of them struggled with basic day to day administration and he runs a steady ship. He's also got several important deals done.

    Rishi's problem is that he's perceived to be detached and disinterested coupled with poor political salesmanship. When you add this in to his approach to risk which, in its delivery, goes from extremely cautious to cautious to desperate panic it conveys a lack of confidence that others pick up on and irritates them because they don't really know or trust his motives.

    It's not actually the policy. The guy has never crystallised what he's about, where his heart is and why you should trust him, or communicated his vision and prospectus for Britain.

    It’s also about the policy.
    The desperate flailing around on climate change is actively damaging.
    Liked by a bunch of Lefties, all the usual suspects I see.

    Look at the YouGov polling on the issue.
    I'd describe those who liked Nigelb's comment as PB's Centrist Dads rather than PB's Lefties.

    Which is exactly Sunak's problem. Because Centrist Dads voted for Cameron, and if you look at the YouGov polling - the very same polling highlighted by OGH in his previous header - they were initially prepared to give Sunak the benefit of the doubt. Now they're not.
    Er, no. The Woodpecker, Heathener, IanB2, El Capitano, Foxy...

    All the usual suspects. None of them are centrists in the slightest.

    And then on DuraAce's characteristic unpleasantness you also have MexicanPete, NorthernMonkey and Carnyx. They may support Labour, LDs or the SNP but they are all of a type.

    This site has become a haven for Lefties. It's what it is now.
    We've had this discussion a few times before. Essentially the 'progressive' element have a greater fondness for the 'like' button than more conservative posters. They interpret this as validation of their belief that history is unfolding the correct way, which is a harmless and amusing delusion.

    Yes, to be fair, I suspect if it was 2008 or 2009 the tide would be reversed and we'd have this precisely the other way round - in fact, I remember Jonathan was very lonely at the time, and really only had Tim for company - but we are where we are.

    It's reflective of morale, and engagement, but not a balanced spectrum of opinion is my point.

    Whoever puts their hand up in the audience and shouts out is different from what happens when everyone leaves the theatre and goes to cast their vote in private in the ballot box.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,682
    ydoethur said:

    viewcode said:

    ydoethur said:

    Popular rule is not democracy. It gives people what they want, not what they need.*

    *Genuine gold star for anyone who identifies where that is quoted from.

    As it's PB, I'd say Terry Pratchett. A quick google makes me think it was Steve Jobs. Outside guesses include Winston Churchill and Karl Rove.

    And all of those would be wrong.

    It really is peak geek if anyone gets it.

    (Terry Pratchett is closer. It was sci-fi/fantasy.)
    Heinlein? Sounds like him. Props if it was Starship Troopers
  • Did Thatcher bring the north to its knees? This stunning film shows what rubbish that is
    Bryan Forbes’s The Whisperers is an unrelentingly bleak, yet brilliant, depiction of industrial decline – set long before the 1980s

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/0/bryan-forbes-the-whisperers-thatcher-industrial-north/ (£££)

    Plot spoilers abound so if you trust Simon Heffer's judgement, watch the film.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,097
    HYUFD said:

    Given inflation has fallen from the levels Sunak inherited, the economy is growing again and interest rates are stabilising he is actually doing a relatively good result compared to what he inherited. The Tory poll rating is also higher than what Truss left even if still lower than what it was under Johnson.

    47% of voters approving of Sunak's plans to delay or cancel the net zero plans is even higher than the 2019 Conservative voteshare let alone the current one so clearly was a relatively popular policy. As for an inheritance tax cut proposal that will go down well with the Tory core vote in the Home counties and West London and the bluewall Sunak gets on side, more and more of whom are over the OHG threshold. Included in the manifesto it will be an incentive to vote Tory again.

    If you agree with David Herdson however that the priority is yet higher public spending not tax cuts then you will almost certainly be voting Labour anyway.

    Sunak is on the right track and with Boris having left the Commons now there is no viable alternative to him as Tory leader before the next general election

    It isn't about higher public spending necessarily, although due to decades of underspending on key infrastructure that's certainly needed.

    The issue is, how do you justify a large tax cut for rich people while cutting spending and still running a colossal deficit?

    Although I would expect abolishing IHT to be actually quite popular, there isn't an answer to that question.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,097
    viewcode said:

    ydoethur said:

    viewcode said:

    ydoethur said:

    Popular rule is not democracy. It gives people what they want, not what they need.*

    *Genuine gold star for anyone who identifies where that is quoted from.

    As it's PB, I'd say Terry Pratchett. A quick google makes me think it was Steve Jobs. Outside guesses include Winston Churchill and Karl Rove.

    And all of those would be wrong.

    It really is peak geek if anyone gets it.

    (Terry Pratchett is closer. It was sci-fi/fantasy.)
    Heinlein? Sounds like him. Props if it was Starship Troopers
    Nope, although you're getting a little warmer.

    Hint - it was released in 2002.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,673
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    Cyclefree said:

    darkage said:

    Cyclefree said:

    tlg86 said:
    The arrogance of this. We must not be subject to the same laws that apply to everyone else - even where there is evidence that one of us might have committed a crime.

    And if we don't get our way we'll refuse to do something which may be necessary to keep safe the people we have pledged to serve.
    It isn't arrogant. They aren't walking away from the Met, they are just saying they don't want to be firearms officers. You should only do this job if you accept the proposition that one error of judgement can lead you spending the rest of your life in prison. I would guess it will be difficult to find competent people to do this work after these events.


    The test for murder is much higher than a simple error of judgment. This is the test the CPS applies before deciding to charge -

    1. Is there sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction? If the answer is yes, then the next question is:

    2. Is a prosecution required in the public interest?

    What these officers are in effect saying is that the CPS should not apply this test.

    Now I have quite a lot of sympathy for armed police officers having to make a split second decision about whether to shoot someone. There have been quite a few such shootings in recent years - in some cases in terrorist incidents as well as in ordinary crimes. But if the evidence for a murder charge is there, the police officers' argument seems to be that it should not be in the public interest for them to be prosecuted. And that means that those charged with implementing and upholding the law should, ipso facto, be excused from following the same laws as the rest of us.

    That is a pretty dangerous precedent to set.
    Don't the CPS also have to consider the suspect to be guilty? My police officer friend is concerned that they are taking the easy option of letting a jury decide.

    I have no idea if this is the protocol in such cases, but I think all serving armed police officers should have the right to review the evidence including any camera footage that has been used by the CPS to come to the decision to charge. That might be unusual, but they are in an unusual job and have the right to know what will get them charged with murder.
    It is not the job of the CPS to judge whether or not a defendant is guilty. That is absolutely the job of the jury, and it is disappointing that a police officer does not understand that.

    The CPS will not prosecute a defendant they know to be innocent, in the same way that a barrister cannot defend a defendant if they know the defendant is guilty. However, if the CPS don't have anything that proves the defendant is innocent, it all comes down to whether there is sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction. In other words, is there sufficient evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant is guilty.
    I think where a case like this gets tricky is that the CPS have to judge whether or not it was a reasonable action to take as per their job. Apparently the case is going to be heard next September so a bit of a wait to find out to hear the evidence. Hearing this week to determine if the officer gets to keep their anonymity.
    Why is that trickier than any other CPS decision making?
This discussion has been closed.