Though as I have said previously if the Police Scotland investigation into the SNP is a damp squib, then I expect their loses may be reasonably contained
I don't really see why people are paying so much attention to polls....may was 20 points ahead till the election campaign started. When labour and tories publish manifesto's I expect polls to change
I don't really see why people are paying so much attention to polls....may was 20 points ahead till the election campaign started. When labour and tories publish manifesto's I expect polls to change
You make a good point but then again if we can't discuss polls here, what is PB.com for?
Worth pointing out that the SNP voteshare in that poll wasn't that much different than before and it was more a case of SLAB losing votes to unionist and non-unionist parties. With R&W showing a dead heat the week previously, I think it's probably an outlier. Mind you if the SNP *did* win Rutherglen, I think Reeves' overcautious approach on not spending would be to blame (e.g. the two-child benefit cap).
I don't really see why people are paying so much attention to polls....may was 20 points ahead till the election campaign started. When labour and tories publish manifesto's I expect polls to change
You make a good point but then again if we can't discuss polls here, what is PB.com for?
I don't really see why people are paying so much attention to polls....may was 20 points ahead till the election campaign started. When labour and tories publish manifesto's I expect polls to change
You make a good point but then again if we can't discuss polls here, what is PB.com for?
Not saying we shouldn't discuss them I think you got the wrong idea. Just saying that assuming those poll leads will survive the election campaign is a fallacy. Till the campaign starts I don't think we really have that much of an idea. Take it as you will was merely expressing a caveat
Who cares whether there's a Labour majority or not? Just as long as this immoral, borderline corrupt, cynical, clueless, incompetent bunch don't let the door hit their arses on the way to six figure directorships in the private sector. That'll do nicely for me.
I can still see it an overall majority on this poll, since it would still mean a fair number of gains in Scotland, and I expect an absolute slaughter in the Red Wall and reasonable achievements elsewhere.
But it would be harder at this level. Yes the perennial point is we won't really know until the campaigns (not that most campaigns change things, but it has happened), but how much recovery are we really expecting from the Tories? Not much I suspect. The SNP? That's more feasible.
I can still see it an overall majority on this poll, since it would still mean a fair number of gains in Scotland, and I expect an absolute slaughter in the Red Wall and reasonable achievements elsewhere.
But it would be harder at this level. Yes the perennial point is we won't really know until the campaigns (not that most campaigns change things, but it has happened), but how much recovery are we really expecting from the Tories? Not much I suspect. The SNP? That's more feasible.
I suspect come the actual campaign labour will keep a lead in the polls but will drop a lot. A lot of labour voters will also sit on their hands or vote green once labours manifesto comes out
I don't really see why people are paying so much attention to polls....may was 20 points ahead till the election campaign started. When labour and tories publish manifesto's I expect polls to change
You make a good point but then again if we can't discuss polls here, what is PB.com for?
Not saying we shouldn't discuss them I think you got the wrong idea. Just saying that assuming those poll leads will survive the election campaign is a fallacy. Till the campaign starts I don't think we really have that much of an idea. Take it as you will was merely expressing a caveat
Elections where a massive poll lead is lost during the campaign are not frequent events. It isn't unusual for the polls to tighten a bit, but 2017 was atypical.
I don't really see why people are paying so much attention to polls....may was 20 points ahead till the election campaign started. When labour and tories publish manifesto's I expect polls to change
You make a good point but then again if we can't discuss polls here, what is PB.com for?
Not saying we shouldn't discuss them I think you got the wrong idea. Just saying that assuming those poll leads will survive the election campaign is a fallacy. Till the campaign starts I don't think we really have that much of an idea. Take it as you will was merely expressing a caveat
Elections where a massive poll lead is lost during the campaign are not frequent events. It isn't unusual for the polls to tighten a bit, but 2017 was atypical.
Shrugs I think this one will be a 2017. Reading the guardian a lot seem to think starmer is keeping his powder dry. I think when he comes out with a manifesto just like the tories only with more compassion he will lose a lot of voters. Hell I am right wing as you know....given a choice between a labour manifesto like that and a tory manifesto I would probably vote corbyn....not because I think it would work necessarily but at least not a policy of managed decline
I think that Labour's antics in the Mid Beds byelection are putting people off. The top priority is to get rid of this corrupt, incompetent Conservative Government. And yet Labour's approach - a mixture of arrogance and greed - shows that their top priority is not to get the Tories out, but the grab power for themselves. In Mid Beds their priority is to prevent the Lib Dems from winning, rather than to get the Tory out themselves.
This is very much a mistake on their part. If they fail to win an overall majority, and try to start cosying up to the Lib Dems for support, what kind of reaction will they expect? If Labour had any sense at all, they would wind down their campaigning in Mid Beds and concentrate their efforts and resources on Rutherglen and Tamwoth to make sure of those, and leave it to the Lib Dems to put an end to Tory domination in Mid Beds.
I don't really see why people are paying so much attention to polls....may was 20 points ahead till the election campaign started. When labour and tories publish manifesto's I expect polls to change
You make a good point but then again if we can't discuss polls here, what is PB.com for?
Discussing the forthcoming Slovak parliamentary election?
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.
Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
I think that Labour's antics in the Mid Beds byelection are putting people off. The top priority is to get rid of this corrupt, incompetent Conservative Government. And yet Labour's approach - a mixture of arrogance and greed - shows that their top priority is not to get the Tories out, but the grab power for themselves. In Mid Beds their priority is to prevent the Lib Dems from winning, rather than to get the Tory out themselves.
This is very much a mistake on their part. If they fail to win an overall majority, and try to start cosying up to the Lib Dems for support, what kind of reaction will they expect? If Labour had any sense at all, they would wind down their campaigning in Mid Beds and concentrate their efforts and resources on Rutherglen and Tamwoth to make sure of those, and leave it to the Lib Dems to put an end to Tory domination in Mid Beds.
Sigh. If we want to play rhetorical games, Labour was and is the obvious challenger in mid-Beds and the LibDem effort from 12% was the spoiler, complete with personal attacks on the Labour candidate. I've not been bothering to make the case since in truth both parties were always going to go for it in the absence of a pact, but this sort of partisan whinge is just silly.
Labour's campaign is now getting serious front-bench engagement (Wes Streeting today) as well as a punishing effort - five canvass sessions plus 7 leaflet rounds today.
I don't really see why people are paying so much attention to polls....may was 20 points ahead till the election campaign started. When labour and tories publish manifesto's I expect polls to change
You make a good point but then again if we can't discuss polls here, what is PB.com for?
Not saying we shouldn't discuss them I think you got the wrong idea. Just saying that assuming those poll leads will survive the election campaign is a fallacy. Till the campaign starts I don't think we really have that much of an idea. Take it as you will was merely expressing a caveat
Elections where a massive poll lead is lost during the campaign are not frequent events. It isn't unusual for the polls to tighten a bit, but 2017 was atypical.
And the "May blew it" narrative is a bit of a false memory.Yes, she had a shocking campaign, but Conservative poll ratings started and ended the campaign at pretty much the same score; 44 at the start became 43 at the end, and 43.5 on the day.
What did happen was that Labour pulled out of their slumber, rising from 25 percent to about 37 precent at the end, and 41 percent on the day itself.
Whether that was Jez's brilliance on the stump, one last push to thwart Brexit, or whatever, he pulled the anti-Conservative vote behind him.
So who are all these people who are terrified of Labour and/or are willing to vote for Rishi as a Magic Grandpa?
Yes, there's time for the polls to tighten. But we've been saying that since Rishi took over and, once the "crazy lady gone" bounce had happened, the polls have remained resolutely loose for nearly a year.
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.
Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
Except journey times in urban areas are more sensitive to junction density and congestion, not the speed limit.
That one minute sounds plausible to me. I'd go with the Welsh Government analysis, not the opinion of your dad.
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.
Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
Except journey times in urban areas are more sensitive to junction density and congestion, not the speed limit.
That one minute sounds plausible to me. I'd go with the Welsh Government analysis, not the opinion of your dad.
You produce utter unmitigated sewage on this issue. I look forward to a multi-pronged Government crackdown on something that's important to you at some point in the near future.
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.
Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
Except journey times in urban areas are more sensitive to junction density and congestion, not the speed limit.
That one minute sounds plausible to me. I'd go with the Welsh Government analysis, not the opinion of your dad.
You produce utter unmitigated sewage on this issue. I look forward to a multi-pronged Government crackdown on something that's important to you at some point in the near future.
Road casualties would be my pick for that crackdown. Grouse moors a close second.
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.
Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
Even if Labour fall short in England of a majority and fail to gain enough seats in Scotland for a majority too (though the Yougov poll still suggests some Labour gains from the SNP), they are still almost certain to win most seats. That gives them room for a confidence and supply deal between Starmer and Davey
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.
Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
It's actually an argument for LTNs - reduce the number of junctions and therefore reduce the amount of time drivers are held up at lights.
I think that Labour's antics in the Mid Beds byelection are putting people off. The top priority is to get rid of this corrupt, incompetent Conservative Government. And yet Labour's approach - a mixture of arrogance and greed - shows that their top priority is not to get the Tories out, but the grab power for themselves. In Mid Beds their priority is to prevent the Lib Dems from winning, rather than to get the Tory out themselves.
This is very much a mistake on their part. If they fail to win an overall majority, and try to start cosying up to the Lib Dems for support, what kind of reaction will they expect? If Labour had any sense at all, they would wind down their campaigning in Mid Beds and concentrate their efforts and resources on Rutherglen and Tamwoth to make sure of those, and leave it to the Lib Dems to put an end to Tory domination in Mid Beds.
I am far from a labour supporter and have only voted labour once (in a council election where all the other candidates seem to be of the woke job variety) but its not arrogant for a political party to want power - indeed that is a more healthy aim than just wanting somebody else not to have it .
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.
Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
Have you or Eabhal ever been to North or Mid Wales? It's not exacting full of conventional urban areas - there are miles of roads with 30 limits which are basically ribbon built, and where its perfectly possible to sit at the speed limit almost all the time.
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.
Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
Have you or Eabhal ever been to North or Mid Wales? It's not exacting full of conventional urban areas - there are miles of roads with 30 limits which are basically ribbon built, and where its perfectly possible to sit at the speed limit almost all the time.
Certainly have, and more likely to visit again now it's got safer roads
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.
Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
It's actually an argument for LTNs - reduce the number of junctions and therefore reduce the amount of time drivers are held up at lights.
Friend of mine is a mathematician who worked on traffic flow. It's one of the subjects where common sense really doesn't describe what actually happens.
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.
Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
Have you or Eabhal ever been to North or Mid Wales? It's not exacting full of conventional urban areas - there are miles of roads with 30 limits which are basically ribbon built, and where its perfectly possible to sit at the speed limit almost all the time.
Not the point. Just pointing out your maths was bunkum. You specifically said a journey that would take 10 min now takes 15. It can't. It never can, unless you never use your brakes on the entire journey and can accelerate to 30 in an instant and do an emergency stop when you arrive. You might have a valid point, but it doesn't help if you exaggerate the issue. The difference will not be 5 min. It will be a lot less. It is simple maths.
I think that Labour's antics in the Mid Beds byelection are putting people off. The top priority is to get rid of this corrupt, incompetent Conservative Government. And yet Labour's approach - a mixture of arrogance and greed - shows that their top priority is not to get the Tories out, but the grab power for themselves. In Mid Beds their priority is to prevent the Lib Dems from winning, rather than to get the Tory out themselves.
This is very much a mistake on their part. If they fail to win an overall majority, and try to start cosying up to the Lib Dems for support, what kind of reaction will they expect? If Labour had any sense at all, they would wind down their campaigning in Mid Beds and concentrate their efforts and resources on Rutherglen and Tamwoth to make sure of those, and leave it to the Lib Dems to put an end to Tory domination in Mid Beds.
True. The Tories would certainly lose Mid Beds if it was a straight Con/LD fight. As it is, the Tories have a good chance of holding it due to the divided oppositoin.
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.
Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
Have you or Eabhal ever been to North or Mid Wales? It's not exacting full of conventional urban areas - there are miles of roads with 30 limits which are basically ribbon built, and where its perfectly possible to sit at the speed limit almost all the time.
Not the point. Just pointing out your maths was bunkum. You specifically said a journey that would take 10 min now takes 15. It can't. It never can, unless you never use your brakes on the entire journey and can accelerate to 30 in an instant and do an emergency stop when you arrive. You might have a valid point, but it doesn't help if you exaggerate the issue. The difference will not be 5 min. It will be a lot less. It is simple maths.
I would think the average speed in a 30 zone is probably around 30 (a lot of drivers speed a bit over) so the calc may not be far off
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.
Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
Have you or Eabhal ever been to North or Mid Wales? It's not exacting full of conventional urban areas - there are miles of roads with 30 limits which are basically ribbon built, and where its perfectly possible to sit at the speed limit almost all the time.
Not the point. Just pointing out your maths was bunkum. You specifically said a journey that would take 10 min now takes 15. It can't. It never can, unless you never use your brakes on the entire journey and can accelerate to 30 in an instant and do an emergency stop when you arrive. You might have a valid point, but it doesn't help if you exaggerate the issue. The difference will not be 5 min. It will be a lot less. It is simple maths.
I would think the average speed in a 30 zone is probably around 30 (a lot of drivers speed a bit over) so the calc may not be far off
No doubt that is true, but if you are going to apply that you have to apply it to the 20 mph limit as well cancelling out that effect.
I don't really see why people are paying so much attention to polls....may was 20 points ahead till the election campaign started. When labour and tories publish manifesto's I expect polls to change
You make a good point but then again if we can't discuss polls here, what is PB.com for?
Discussing the forthcoming Slovak parliamentary election?
Speaking of which, it's looking quite exciting. The populist left (really a vehicle for ex-PM Fico) narrowly ahead of mainstream liberals and social democrats. Various conservative/nationalists parties some way behind, but no obvious majority.
The tories have been incredibly lucky with recent by elections - Uxbridge saved by the car crash of ULEZ and probably saved in Mid Bed by the lack of a clear leading challenger. I fear a bloodbath at the GE though as there is no enthusiasm to vote tory when the country has the highest tax rate and infested with woke tripe even after 13 years of tory rule - whats the point?
Not sure why though the whole of Downing Street had to cancel their weekends or whatever similar it was that Toby was claiming earlier according to a post on here.
Not sure why though the whole of Downing Street had to cancel their weekends or whatever similar it was that Toby was claiming earlier according to a post on here.
I retract this. Having checked Toby's actual tweet he seems to be referring to news staff cancelling their weekends rather than No 10.
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.
Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
Have you or Eabhal ever been to North or Mid Wales? It's not exacting full of conventional urban areas - there are miles of roads with 30 limits which are basically ribbon built, and where its perfectly possible to sit at the speed limit almost all the time.
Not the point. Just pointing out your maths was bunkum. You specifically said a journey that would take 10 min now takes 15. It can't. It never can, unless you never use your brakes on the entire journey and can accelerate to 30 in an instant and do an emergency stop when you arrive. You might have a valid point, but it doesn't help if you exaggerate the issue. The difference will not be 5 min. It will be a lot less. It is simple maths.
My meaning, which perhaps I didn't make 100% clear, was that travel on clear stretches of road at the speed limit take half as long again as they used to. This is important, as it describes long sections of most journeys in North and Mid Wales, outside of the school holidays. (inside the school holidays it's carnage as the roads are full of morons who don't know how wide their car is, and keep slowing down to gawp at the view).
I used to commute 20 miles across part of North Wales, there were perhaps 4 or 5 junctions, at most of which it was unusual to wait. My car comfortably accelerates to 30mph under 10 seconds (if I floor it, it's probably more like 2-3 seconds - it's 0-60 is under 10). Probably 8 miles or so of that 20 miles was in 30 limits - maybe 17 minutes driving allowing a total of a minute for the junctions and acceleration times. That same 8 miles is now going to take around 25 minutes, so if I was still doing it, I would spend almost a quarter of an hour extra commuting every day, on a commute that was only about 30 minutes each to start with. That's a 25% increase in journey time.
Anyone claiming that sort of change is marginal is either terrible at maths or completely barking mad.
Going back to that "it only adds a minute a journey" claim, taking my numbers above as pretty typical of quite a lot of North Wales, the only way the claim stacks up there is if the mean journey is 3-4 minutes, which seems implausibly short.
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.
Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
Have you or Eabhal ever been to North or Mid Wales? It's not exacting full of conventional urban areas - there are miles of roads with 30 limits which are basically ribbon built, and where its perfectly possible to sit at the speed limit almost all the time.
Not the point. Just pointing out your maths was bunkum. You specifically said a journey that would take 10 min now takes 15. It can't. It never can, unless you never use your brakes on the entire journey and can accelerate to 30 in an instant and do an emergency stop when you arrive. You might have a valid point, but it doesn't help if you exaggerate the issue. The difference will not be 5 min. It will be a lot less. It is simple maths.
My meaning, which perhaps I didn't make 100% clear, was that travel on clear stretches of road at the speed limit take half as long again as they used to. This is important, as it describes long sections of most journeys in North and Mid Wales, outside of the school holidays. (inside the school holidays it's carnage as the roads are full of morons who don't know how wide their car is, and keep slowing down to gawp at the view).
I used to commute 20 miles across part of North Wales, there were perhaps 4 or 5 junctions, at most of which it was unusual to wait. My car comfortably accelerates to 30mph under 10 seconds (if I floor it, it's probably more like 2-3 seconds - it's 0-60 is under 10). Probably 8 miles or so of that 20 miles was in 30 limits - maybe 17 minutes driving allowing a total of a minute for the junctions and acceleration times. That same 8 miles is now going to take around 25 minutes, so if I was still doing it, I would spend almost a quarter of an hour extra commuting every day, on a commute that was only about 30 minutes each to start with. That's a 25% increase in journey time.
Anyone claiming that sort of change is marginal is either terrible at maths or completely barking mad.
Going back to that "it only adds a minute a journey" claim, taking my numbers above as pretty typical of quite a lot of North Wales, the only way the claim stacks up there is if the mean journey is 3-4 minutes, which seems implausibly short.
I'll go with the Welsh Government analysis unless you can provide an alternative.
(And most car journeys are implausibly short, to be fair!)
"The American XL Bully is a monster created by the internet The industry driving people to breed the dog is a type of Ponzi scheme, though one that comes with appalling consequences. By Will Dunn"
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.
Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
Have you or Eabhal ever been to North or Mid Wales? It's not exacting full of conventional urban areas - there are miles of roads with 30 limits which are basically ribbon built, and where its perfectly possible to sit at the speed limit almost all the time.
Not the point. Just pointing out your maths was bunkum. You specifically said a journey that would take 10 min now takes 15. It can't. It never can, unless you never use your brakes on the entire journey and can accelerate to 30 in an instant and do an emergency stop when you arrive. You might have a valid point, but it doesn't help if you exaggerate the issue. The difference will not be 5 min. It will be a lot less. It is simple maths.
I would think the average speed in a 30 zone is probably around 30 (a lot of drivers speed a bit over) so the calc may not be far off
No doubt that is true, but if you are going to apply that you have to apply it to the 20 mph limit as well cancelling out that effect.
Not really. If we're arguing that, on paper, average speeds should be are less than the speed limit, that applies to both 20mph and 30mph zones. If we make the case that in reality drivers speed a bit so achieving an average of the speed limit (plausible as an approximation), we have to apply that to both 20mph and 30mph zones. If that's the case, then my maths holds exactly, and the same distance covered in these areas takes half as long again in a 20mph zone.
Of course it's worth nothing that car speedos generally under read by about 3mph, so if people drive around with the needle pointing at the number this makes things even worse - travel at 17mph takes 58% extra time per mile compared to 27mph.
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.
Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
Have you or Eabhal ever been to North or Mid Wales? It's not exacting full of conventional urban areas - there are miles of roads with 30 limits which are basically ribbon built, and where its perfectly possible to sit at the speed limit almost all the time.
Not the point. Just pointing out your maths was bunkum. You specifically said a journey that would take 10 min now takes 15. It can't. It never can, unless you never use your brakes on the entire journey and can accelerate to 30 in an instant and do an emergency stop when you arrive. You might have a valid point, but it doesn't help if you exaggerate the issue. The difference will not be 5 min. It will be a lot less. It is simple maths.
I would think the average speed in a 30 zone is probably around 30 (a lot of drivers speed a bit over) so the calc may not be far off
No doubt that is true, but if you are going to apply that you have to apply it to the 20 mph limit as well cancelling out that effect.
Not really. If we're arguing that, on paper, average speeds should be are less than the speed limit, that applies to both 20mph and 30mph zones. If we make the case that in reality drivers speed a bit so achieving an average of the speed limit (plausible as an approximation), we have to apply that to both 20mph and 30mph zones. If that's the case, then my maths holds exactly, and the same distance covered in these areas takes half as long again in a 20mph zone.
Of course it's worth nothing that car speedos generally under read by about 3mph, so if people drive around with the needle pointing at the number this makes things even worse - travel at 17mph takes 58% extra time per mile compared to 27mph.
Just checked this map and very little of the roads, by mileage, are affected by the 20mph change in North Wales.
So it's only very short journeys that would be affected to the extent you are suggesting, and the absolute difference in time will be tiny as a result.
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.
Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
Have you or Eabhal ever been to North or Mid Wales? It's not exacting full of conventional urban areas - there are miles of roads with 30 limits which are basically ribbon built, and where its perfectly possible to sit at the speed limit almost all the time.
Not the point. Just pointing out your maths was bunkum. You specifically said a journey that would take 10 min now takes 15. It can't. It never can, unless you never use your brakes on the entire journey and can accelerate to 30 in an instant and do an emergency stop when you arrive. You might have a valid point, but it doesn't help if you exaggerate the issue. The difference will not be 5 min. It will be a lot less. It is simple maths.
My meaning, which perhaps I didn't make 100% clear, was that travel on clear stretches of road at the speed limit take half as long again as they used to. This is important, as it describes long sections of most journeys in North and Mid Wales, outside of the school holidays. (inside the school holidays it's carnage as the roads are full of morons who don't know how wide their car is, and keep slowing down to gawp at the view).
I used to commute 20 miles across part of North Wales, there were perhaps 4 or 5 junctions, at most of which it was unusual to wait. My car comfortably accelerates to 30mph under 10 seconds (if I floor it, it's probably more like 2-3 seconds - it's 0-60 is under 10). Probably 8 miles or so of that 20 miles was in 30 limits - maybe 17 minutes driving allowing a total of a minute for the junctions and acceleration times. That same 8 miles is now going to take around 25 minutes, so if I was still doing it, I would spend almost a quarter of an hour extra commuting every day, on a commute that was only about 30 minutes each to start with. That's a 25% increase in journey time.
Anyone claiming that sort of change is marginal is either terrible at maths or completely barking mad.
Going back to that "it only adds a minute a journey" claim, taking my numbers above as pretty typical of quite a lot of North Wales, the only way the claim stacks up there is if the mean journey is 3-4 minutes, which seems implausibly short.
I'll go with the Welsh Government analysis unless you can provide an alternative.
(And most car journeys are implausibly short, to be fair!)
I've just provided a fairly detailed worked example which explains why the Welsh governments number is very unlikely to be true. The only way it can possibly be true is if the average journey contains less than 2 minutes of driving at the speed limit in a 30 zone. This doesn't pass the sniff test for "is it plausible".
My sister worked for the Welsh civil service in a data analysis function at a fairly high level (although a different sector to roads). Her cynical observation was that most of the statistical requests she got were for attempts at what she described as "policy based evidence making". The ones where the data didn't support the chosen policies (which was most of them) mysteriously never seemed to get followed up or published.
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.
Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
Have you or Eabhal ever been to North or Mid Wales? It's not exacting full of conventional urban areas - there are miles of roads with 30 limits which are basically ribbon built, and where its perfectly possible to sit at the speed limit almost all the time.
Not the point. Just pointing out your maths was bunkum. You specifically said a journey that would take 10 min now takes 15. It can't. It never can, unless you never use your brakes on the entire journey and can accelerate to 30 in an instant and do an emergency stop when you arrive. You might have a valid point, but it doesn't help if you exaggerate the issue. The difference will not be 5 min. It will be a lot less. It is simple maths.
My meaning, which perhaps I didn't make 100% clear, was that travel on clear stretches of road at the speed limit take half as long again as they used to. This is important, as it describes long sections of most journeys in North and Mid Wales, outside of the school holidays. (inside the school holidays it's carnage as the roads are full of morons who don't know how wide their car is, and keep slowing down to gawp at the view).
I used to commute 20 miles across part of North Wales, there were perhaps 4 or 5 junctions, at most of which it was unusual to wait. My car comfortably accelerates to 30mph under 10 seconds (if I floor it, it's probably more like 2-3 seconds - it's 0-60 is under 10). Probably 8 miles or so of that 20 miles was in 30 limits - maybe 17 minutes driving allowing a total of a minute for the junctions and acceleration times. That same 8 miles is now going to take around 25 minutes, so if I was still doing it, I would spend almost a quarter of an hour extra commuting every day, on a commute that was only about 30 minutes each to start with. That's a 25% increase in journey time.
Anyone claiming that sort of change is marginal is either terrible at maths or completely barking mad.
Going back to that "it only adds a minute a journey" claim, taking my numbers above as pretty typical of quite a lot of North Wales, the only way the claim stacks up there is if the mean journey is 3-4 minutes, which seems implausibly short.
I'll go with the Welsh Government analysis unless you can provide an alternative.
(And most car journeys are implausibly short, to be fair!)
I've just provided a fairly detailed worked example which explains why the Welsh governments number is very unlikely to be true. The only way it can possibly be true is if the average journey contains less than 2 minutes of driving at the speed limit in a 30 zone. This doesn't pass the sniff test for "is it plausible".
My sister worked for the Welsh civil service in a data analysis function at a fairly high level (although a different sector to roads). Her cynical observation was that most of the statistical requests she got were for attempts at what she described as "policy based evidence making". The ones where the data didn't support the chosen policies (which was most of them) mysteriously never seemed to get followed up or published.
‘‘Twas ever thus.
I went to school with a boy, whose father had been a Farnborough boffin. He wrote a well argued paper pointing out that Concorde would miss all its targets, and that large subsonic airliners were the way to go. His reward for speaking out of turn was to be fired and black balled in the U.K. aviation industry. It was made clear to him that this was done at a political level, since Concorde was political.
He ended up working for NASA, and had the enjoyment of turning the tables on one of his persecutors some years later, when he, in turn tried to get a job in the US aviation industry.
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.
Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
Have you or Eabhal ever been to North or Mid Wales? It's not exacting full of conventional urban areas - there are miles of roads with 30 limits which are basically ribbon built, and where its perfectly possible to sit at the speed limit almost all the time.
Not the point. Just pointing out your maths was bunkum. You specifically said a journey that would take 10 min now takes 15. It can't. It never can, unless you never use your brakes on the entire journey and can accelerate to 30 in an instant and do an emergency stop when you arrive. You might have a valid point, but it doesn't help if you exaggerate the issue. The difference will not be 5 min. It will be a lot less. It is simple maths.
I would think the average speed in a 30 zone is probably around 30 (a lot of drivers speed a bit over) so the calc may not be far off
No doubt that is true, but if you are going to apply that you have to apply it to the 20 mph limit as well cancelling out that effect.
Not really. If we're arguing that, on paper, average speeds should be are less than the speed limit, that applies to both 20mph and 30mph zones. If we make the case that in reality drivers speed a bit so achieving an average of the speed limit (plausible as an approximation), we have to apply that to both 20mph and 30mph zones. If that's the case, then my maths holds exactly, and the same distance covered in these areas takes half as long again in a 20mph zone.
Of course it's worth nothing that car speedos generally under read by about 3mph, so if people drive around with the needle pointing at the number this makes things even worse - travel at 17mph takes 58% extra time per mile compared to 27mph.
Just checked this map and very little of the roads, by mileage, are affected by the 20mph change in North Wales.
So it's only very short journeys that would be affected to the extent you are suggesting, and the absolute difference in time will be tiny as a result.
Trying to save money by doing many things badly is stupid.
Remember what I said about learned helplessness? It has never occurred to Sunak to raise a tax to pay for this? A government that cannot tax cannot govern. He literally does not know how to run a country.
Rishi Sunak, then Chancellor of the Exchequer, had planned to resign on receiving a partygate FPN, but was persuaded to stay on by Murdoch executives, only resigning after The Saj as part of a wave that would end the premiership of Boris Johnson. If Sunak had resigned earlier, he might not have become Prime Minister.
This is revealed in a forthcoming book by Telegraph man Ben Riley-Smith, The Right to Rule : Thirteen Years, Five Prime Ministers and the Implosion of the Tories.
The EU might change to calling jam marmalade, and marmalade will become citrus marmalade. Britain (huzzah for Brexit) will need to choose whether to follow suit or diverge from the continent by keeping the proper names.
But in Northern Ireland, thanks to Boris's broken Brexit and Rishi's Windsor Framework, locally-made jams and marmalades will have to follow EU rules but those imported from mainland Britain will not, although of course the government might change our rules in parallel with Brussels.
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.
Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
Have you or Eabhal ever been to North or Mid Wales? It's not exacting full of conventional urban areas - there are miles of roads with 30 limits which are basically ribbon built, and where its perfectly possible to sit at the speed limit almost all the time.
Not the point. Just pointing out your maths was bunkum. You specifically said a journey that would take 10 min now takes 15. It can't. It never can, unless you never use your brakes on the entire journey and can accelerate to 30 in an instant and do an emergency stop when you arrive. You might have a valid point, but it doesn't help if you exaggerate the issue. The difference will not be 5 min. It will be a lot less. It is simple maths.
I would think the average speed in a 30 zone is probably around 30 (a lot of drivers speed a bit over) so the calc may not be far off
No doubt that is true, but if you are going to apply that you have to apply it to the 20 mph limit as well cancelling out that effect.
Not really. If we're arguing that, on paper, average speeds should be are less than the speed limit, that applies to both 20mph and 30mph zones. If we make the case that in reality drivers speed a bit so achieving an average of the speed limit (plausible as an approximation), we have to apply that to both 20mph and 30mph zones. If that's the case, then my maths holds exactly, and the same distance covered in these areas takes half as long again in a 20mph zone.
Of course it's worth nothing that car speedos generally under read by about 3mph, so if people drive around with the needle pointing at the number this makes things even worse - travel at 17mph takes 58% extra time per mile compared to 27mph.
Just checked this map and very little of the roads, by mileage, are affected by the 20mph change in North Wales.
So it's only very short journeys that would be affected to the extent you are suggesting, and the absolute difference in time will be tiny as a result.
Try doing say Barmouth to Criccieth under the new regime - lot of new 20mph in that.
You are missing two very obvious points. 1. Many of the 'through' routes will remain at 30. 2. The whole point of the excercise is to slow traffic down - in mainly residential streets - to reduce accidents.
We are absurdly sentimental about animals in this country.
The breed isn't like that anyway but dogs don't "love children and people in general"; they are pack animals and to the extent they appear to be it's because they see themselves as part of that pack with a clear role in its pecking order, and are loyal to who leads it and feeds them. Sometimes this extends to jealously, and then more basic instincts can kick in, which is why they can attack kids. They won't generally attack the owner unless they are absurdly indisciplined and want to make a play for pack leader.
Either way, basic dog psychology needs to be considered here. It's an animal - not a person with four legs.
Too many lives expended for scorched earth and rubble. Perhaps in the peace settlement, Russia will be made to pay for reconstruction, if not compensation. More likely Ukraine will be faced with massive debt and hoping for Marshall Plan-like handouts from the EU or United States.
assuming you're always travelling at the maximum speed (not a valid assumption, but it gives the absolute worst case scenario): 4 miles @ 30mph = 8 minutes 4 miles @ 20mph = 12 minutes
Journey of ~40km. Google maps says 47 minutes. New travel time: 47 + 4 = 51 minutes.
Too many lives expended for scorched earth and rubble. Perhaps in the peace settlement, Russia will be made to pay for reconstruction, if not compensation. More likely Ukraine will be faced with massive debt and hoping for Marshall Plan-like handouts from the EU or United States.
The debt is kind of irrelevant because their capacity to repay it will not exist in our lifetimes. It's a punctured blow-up doll of a country that needs regular infusions of cash from the US just to keep the lights on.
Their situation will be happier if they can get more of the industrial capacity and resources of Donbas before the SMO ends as they can offer those up for plunderous rapine by EU/US corporations and thus pique more interest in 'reconstruction'.
I am glad to see NZ followed the script last night with a thumping win over Namibia. But I cant see them winning this year. Todays matches have three predictable wins but still interesting: Samoa v Chile - This is first opportunuty to see Samoa - they should easily see off Chile by 40 pts - and be a good indicator of performance for their big games coming up against Argentina and England. I expect Samoa to make it out of their group. Wales v Portugal - the last time these teams played it resulted in the highest ever score for Wales. Wont happen this time but Wales should win comfortably by 40 pts. Ireland v Tonga. This should be closest match today. Tonga should provide some interesting moments but will lose by 20 pts. Ireland need to be very careful to avoid injury or red cards...
Too many lives expended for scorched earth and rubble. Perhaps in the peace settlement, Russia will be made to pay for reconstruction, if not compensation. More likely Ukraine will be faced with massive debt and hoping for Marshall Plan-like handouts from the EU or United States.
The debt is kind of irrelevant because their capacity to repay it will not exist in our lifetimes. It's a punctured blow-up doll of a country that needs regular infusions of cash from the US just to keep the lights on.
Their situation will be happier if they can get more of the industrial capacity and resources of Donbas before the SMO ends as they can offer those up for plunderous rapine by EU/US corporations and thus pique more interest in 'reconstruction'.
On the contrary, while it will carry a shed load of debt, its economic prospects aren't awful. Huge agricultural sector, significant natural resources, and a relatively developed industrial sector.
I know it offends your Leninist beliefs, but there's a fair chance of its recovering quite rapidly postwar. Unlike Russia, probably.
assuming you're always travelling at the maximum speed (not a valid assumption, but it gives the absolute worst case scenario): 4 miles @ 30mph = 8 minutes 4 miles @ 20mph = 12 minutes
Journey of ~40km. Google maps says 47 minutes. New travel time: 47 + 4 = 51 minutes.
It is not the worst case at all. Driving at 20 might mean you hit a red traffic light and wait 2 minutes at the lights during which a combine harvester merges in ahead of you...58 minutes.
Too many lives expended for scorched earth and rubble. Perhaps in the peace settlement, Russia will be made to pay for reconstruction, if not compensation. More likely Ukraine will be faced with massive debt and hoping for Marshall Plan-like handouts from the EU or United States.
The debt is kind of irrelevant because their capacity to repay it will not exist in our lifetimes. It's a punctured blow-up doll of a country that needs regular infusions of cash from the US just to keep the lights on.
Their situation will be happier if they can get more of the industrial capacity and resources of Donbas before the SMO ends as they can offer those up for plunderous rapine by EU/US corporations and thus pique more interest in 'reconstruction'.
On the contrary, while it will carry a shed load of debt, its economic prospects aren't awful. Huge agricultural sector, significant natural resources, and a relatively developed industrial sector.
It was the poorest country in Europe with all of those advantages before it got smashed to fuck and depopulated. Why will it be better?
The whole thing is pointless if it doesn't run into Euston.
Yes it is pointless, but also emblematic of what the Tories stand for. Do things, especially on investment, on the cheap, invest the minimum, then move the goalposts and cut corners as we go along. Applies not just to transport but our public sector workforce, school buildings, the courts, hospitals and everything else.
Penny rich and pound poor, forgetting we get what we pay for. Absurdly stupid as you say, and why it is time for change.
Too many lives expended for scorched earth and rubble. Perhaps in the peace settlement, Russia will be made to pay for reconstruction, if not compensation. More likely Ukraine will be faced with massive debt and hoping for Marshall Plan-like handouts from the EU or United States.
The debt is kind of irrelevant because their capacity to repay it will not exist in our lifetimes. It's a punctured blow-up doll of a country that needs regular infusions of cash from the US just to keep the lights on.
Their situation will be happier if they can get more of the industrial capacity and resources of Donbas before the SMO ends as they can offer those up for plunderous rapine by EU/US corporations and thus pique more interest in 'reconstruction'.
On the contrary, while it will carry a shed load of debt, its economic prospects aren't awful. Huge agricultural sector, significant natural resources, and a relatively developed industrial sector.
It was the poorest country in Europe with all of those advantages before it got smashed to fuck and depopulated. Why will it be better?
For the same reasons countries which have integrated into the west transformed their economies. What interest did S Korea take in Ukraine pre-war, for example ?
Of course much depends on the invasion's defeat within the next couple of years, but I think that's reasonably likely.
The whole thing is pointless if it doesn't run into Euston.
Yes it is pointless, but also emblematic of what the Tories stand for. Do things, especially on investment, on the cheap, invest the minimum, then move the goalposts and cut corners as we go along. Applies not just to transport but our public sector workforce, school buildings, the courts, hospitals and everything else.
Penny rich and pound poor, forgetting we get what we pay for. Absurdly stupid as you say, and why it is time for change.
The issue as I see it is that there is still a lingering Thatcherite mindset from the 1980s, which says that the public sector shouldn't spend money. So things don't get built, maintained properly, or replaced. It is the opposite to most other countries where public infrastructure is built and maintained. As a result we live in a perpetual substandard mess.
BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.
To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion
There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media
One local takeaway has advertised
Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow
After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations
I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.
Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides. Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.
Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.
So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.
Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
In practice the difference is probably about half that, because of all the time you spend driving in an urban environment not at maximum speed but accelerating and decelerating and stationary due to junctions, crossings, lights, obstacles, etc.
We are absurdly sentimental about animals in this country.
The breed isn't like that anyway but dogs don't "love children and people in general"; they are pack animals and to the extent they appear to be it's because they see themselves as part of that pack with a clear role in its pecking order, and are loyal to who leads it and feeds them. Sometimes this extends to jealously, and then more basic instincts can kick in, which is why they can attack kids. They won't generally attack the owner unless they are absurdly indisciplined and want to make a play for pack leader.
Either way, basic dog psychology needs to be considered here. It's an animal - not a person with four legs.
Yes, but that’s dog psychology from the dark ages. As with your politics you seem to be way behind the times. Are you a relic from a bygone age?
Comments
YouGov's weighted numbers in England are 48-26-11 so a 12-point Conservative lead is now a 22-point Labour lead which is a swing of 17%.
I agree it won't be that but the point is Labour won't need a big win in Scotland if it gets a bigger win in England.
Though as I have said previously if the Police Scotland investigation into the SNP is a damp squib, then I expect their loses may be reasonably contained
With R&W showing a dead heat the week previously, I think it's probably an outlier. Mind you if the SNP *did* win Rutherglen, I think Reeves' overcautious approach on not spending would be to blame (e.g. the two-child benefit cap).
Just as long as this immoral, borderline corrupt, cynical, clueless, incompetent bunch don't let the door hit their arses on the way to six figure directorships in the private sector.
That'll do nicely for me.
But it would be harder at this level. Yes the perennial point is we won't really know until the campaigns (not that most campaigns change things, but it has happened), but how much recovery are we really expecting from the Tories? Not much I suspect. The SNP? That's more feasible.
Juliette de Causans says enhancing her looks is more likely to boost her party’s cause of supporting Europe and the environment"
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/09/15/juliette-de-causans-french-politics-digital-edit-posters/
This is very much a mistake on their part. If they fail to win an overall majority, and try to start cosying up to the Lib Dems for support, what kind of reaction will they expect? If Labour had any sense at all, they would wind down their campaigning in Mid Beds and concentrate their efforts and resources on Rutherglen and Tamwoth to make sure of those, and leave it to the Lib Dems to put an end to Tory domination in Mid Beds.
Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
Labour's campaign is now getting serious front-bench engagement (Wes Streeting today) as well as a punishing effort - five canvass sessions plus 7 leaflet rounds today.
What did happen was that Labour pulled out of their slumber, rising from 25 percent to about 37
precent at the end, and 41 percent on the day itself.
Whether that was Jez's brilliance on the stump, one last push to thwart Brexit, or whatever, he pulled the anti-Conservative vote behind him.
So who are all these people who are terrified of Labour and/or are willing to vote for Rishi as a Magic Grandpa?
Yes, there's time for the polls to tighten. But we've been saying that since Rishi took over and, once the "crazy lady gone" bounce had happened, the polls have remained resolutely loose for nearly a year.
That one minute sounds plausible to me. I'd go with the Welsh Government analysis, not the opinion of your dad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGr_PVUHn2I
If so who cares
Ann Widdecombe at Immigration and Justice and David Bull at Health
https://x.com/TiceRichard/status/1702750941735161993?s=20
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2023_Slovak_parliamentary_election
I used to commute 20 miles across part of North Wales, there were perhaps 4 or 5 junctions, at most of which it was unusual to wait. My car comfortably accelerates to 30mph under 10 seconds (if I floor it, it's probably more like 2-3 seconds - it's 0-60 is under 10). Probably 8 miles or so of that 20 miles was in 30 limits - maybe 17 minutes driving allowing a total of a minute for the junctions and acceleration times. That same 8 miles is now going to take around 25 minutes, so if I was still doing it, I would spend almost a quarter of an hour extra commuting every day, on a commute that was only about 30 minutes each to start with. That's a 25% increase in journey time.
Anyone claiming that sort of change is marginal is either terrible at maths or completely barking mad.
Going back to that "it only adds a minute a journey" claim, taking my numbers above as pretty typical of quite a lot of North Wales, the only way the claim stacks up there is if the mean journey is 3-4 minutes, which seems implausibly short.
(And most car journeys are implausibly short, to be fair!)
The industry driving people to breed the dog is a type of Ponzi scheme, though one that comes with appalling consequences.
By Will Dunn"
https://www.newstatesman.com/business/2023/09/american-xl-bully-dog-attack-monster-internet
Of course it's worth nothing that car speedos generally under read by about 3mph, so if people drive around with the needle pointing at the number this makes things even worse - travel at 17mph takes 58% extra time per mile compared to 27mph.
So it's only very short journeys that would be affected to the extent you are suggesting, and the absolute difference in time will be tiny as a result.
https://datamap.gov.wales/maps/roads-affected-by-changes-to-the-speed-limit-on-re/view#/
I used to commute 20 miles across part of North Wales, there were perhaps 4 or 5 junctions, at most of which it was unusual to wait. My car comfortably accelerates to 30mph under 10 seconds (if I floor it, it's probably more like 2-3 seconds - it's 0-60 is under 10). Probably 8 miles or so of that 20 miles was in 30 limits - maybe 17 minutes driving allowing a total of a minute for the junctions and acceleration times. That same 8 miles is now going to take around 25 minutes, so if I was still doing it, I would spend almost a quarter of an hour extra commuting every day, on a commute that was only about 30 minutes each to start with. That's a 25% increase in journey time.
Anyone claiming that sort of change is marginal is either terrible at maths or completely barking mad.
Going back to that "it only adds a minute a journey" claim, taking my numbers above as pretty typical of quite a lot of North Wales, the only way the claim stacks up there is if the mean journey is 3-4 minutes, which seems implausibly short.
I'll go with the Welsh Government analysis unless you can provide an alternative.
(And most car journeys are implausibly short, to be fair!)
I've just provided a fairly detailed worked example which explains why the Welsh governments number is very unlikely to be true. The only way it can possibly be true is if the average journey contains less than 2 minutes of driving at the speed limit in a 30 zone. This doesn't pass the sniff test for "is it plausible".
My sister worked for the Welsh civil service in a data analysis function at a fairly high level (although a different sector to roads). Her cynical observation was that most of the statistical requests she got were for attempts at what she described as "policy based evidence making". The ones where the data didn't support the chosen policies (which was most of them) mysteriously never seemed to get followed up or published.
I went to school with a boy, whose father had been a Farnborough boffin. He wrote a well argued paper pointing out that Concorde would miss all its targets, and that large subsonic airliners were the way to go. His reward for speaking out of turn was to be fired and black balled in the U.K. aviation industry. It was made clear to him that this was done at a political level, since Concorde was political.
He ended up working for NASA, and had the enjoyment of turning the tables on one of his persecutors some years later, when he, in turn tried to get a job in the US aviation industry.
Not the point. Just pointing out your maths was bunkum. You specifically said a journey that would take 10 min now takes 15. It can't. It never can, unless you never use your brakes on the entire journey and can accelerate to 30 in an instant and do an emergency stop when you arrive. You might have a valid point, but it doesn't help if you exaggerate the issue. The difference will not be 5 min. It will be a lot less. It is simple maths.
I would think the average speed in a 30 zone is probably around 30 (a lot of drivers speed a bit over) so the calc may not be far off
No doubt that is true, but if you are going to apply that you have to apply it to the 20 mph limit as well cancelling out that effect.
Not really. If we're arguing that, on paper, average speeds should be are less than the speed limit, that applies to both 20mph and 30mph zones. If we make the case that in reality drivers speed a bit so achieving an average of the speed limit (plausible as an approximation), we have to apply that to both 20mph and 30mph zones. If that's the case, then my maths holds exactly, and the same distance covered in these areas takes half as long again in a 20mph zone.
Of course it's worth nothing that car speedos generally under read by about 3mph, so if people drive around with the needle pointing at the number this makes things even worse - travel at 17mph takes 58% extra time per mile compared to 27mph.
Just checked this map and very little of the roads, by mileage, are affected by the 20mph change in North Wales.
So it's only very short journeys that would be affected to the extent you are suggesting, and the absolute difference in time will be tiny as a result.
https://datamap.gov.wales/maps/roads-affected-by-changes-to-the-speed-limit-on-re/view#/
Try doing say Barmouth to Criccieth under the new regime - lot of new 20mph in that.
"I believe that the XL bully is a kind, beautiful natured breed that loves children and people in general, and are very loyal and loving pets."
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/643611
https://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=643611
He’s a nut job and a has-been.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YR4CseY9pk
Ditto David Walliams.
In fact Williams is famous in my household for being an out-and-out awful human being.
Remember what I said about learned helplessness? It has never occurred to Sunak to raise a tax to pay for this? A government that cannot tax cannot govern. He literally does not know how to run a country.
Plan to resign from Boris Johnson's cabinet shared with News Corp executives
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/09/15/murdoch-team-told-sunak-not-to-quit-over-partygate/ (£££)
Rishi Sunak, then Chancellor of the Exchequer, had planned to resign on receiving a partygate FPN, but was persuaded to stay on by Murdoch executives, only resigning after The Saj as part of a wave that would end the premiership of Boris Johnson. If Sunak had resigned earlier, he might not have become Prime Minister.
This is revealed in a forthcoming book by Telegraph man Ben Riley-Smith, The Right to Rule : Thirteen Years, Five Prime Ministers and the Implosion of the Tories.
Fruit preserve could have ‘citrus’ added to its name under Brussels ‘breakfast directives’, as UK mulls whether to follow suit
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/15/citrus-marmalade-jam-european-union-breakfast-directives/ (£££)
The EU might change to calling jam marmalade, and marmalade will become citrus marmalade. Britain (huzzah for Brexit) will need to choose whether to follow suit or diverge from the continent by keeping the proper names.
But in Northern Ireland, thanks to Boris's broken Brexit and Rishi's Windsor Framework, locally-made jams and marmalades will have to follow EU rules but those imported from mainland Britain will not, although of course the government might change our rules in parallel with Brussels.
I would think the average speed in a 30 zone is probably around 30 (a lot of drivers speed a bit over) so the calc may not be far off
No doubt that is true, but if you are going to apply that you have to apply it to the 20 mph limit as well cancelling out that effect.
Not really. If we're arguing that, on paper, average speeds should be are less than the speed limit, that applies to both 20mph and 30mph zones. If we make the case that in reality drivers speed a bit so achieving an average of the speed limit (plausible as an approximation), we have to apply that to both 20mph and 30mph zones. If that's the case, then my maths holds exactly, and the same distance covered in these areas takes half as long again in a 20mph zone.
Of course it's worth nothing that car speedos generally under read by about 3mph, so if people drive around with the needle pointing at the number this makes things even worse - travel at 17mph takes 58% extra time per mile compared to 27mph.
Just checked this map and very little of the roads, by mileage, are affected by the 20mph change in North Wales.
So it's only very short journeys that would be affected to the extent you are suggesting, and the absolute difference in time will be tiny as a result.
https://datamap.gov.wales/maps/roads-affected-by-changes-to-the-speed-limit-on-re/view#/
Try doing say Barmouth to Criccieth under the new regime - lot of new 20mph in that.
You are missing two very obvious points.
1. Many of the 'through' routes will remain at 30.
2. The whole point of the excercise is to slow traffic down - in mainly residential streets - to reduce accidents.
So why dont you just SLOW DOWN!!
He will prioritise the former because there are simply far more seats there.
Mid Silla dynasty bling.
The breed isn't like that anyway but dogs don't "love children and people in general"; they are pack animals and to the extent they appear to be it's because they see themselves as part of that pack with a clear role in its pecking order, and are loyal to who leads it and feeds them. Sometimes this extends to jealously, and then more basic instincts can kick in, which is why they can attack kids. They won't generally attack the owner unless they are absurdly indisciplined and want to make a play for pack leader.
Either way, basic dog psychology needs to be considered here. It's an animal - not a person with four legs.
The whole thing is pointless if it doesn't run into Euston.
https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1702849789308932497
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZtcZ924kOQ
Their situation will be happier if they can get more of the industrial capacity and resources of Donbas before the SMO ends as they can offer those up for plunderous rapine by EU/US corporations and thus pique more interest in 'reconstruction'.
That a joke?
I am glad to see NZ followed the script last night with a thumping win over Namibia. But I cant see them winning this year.
Todays matches have three predictable wins but still interesting:
Samoa v Chile - This is first opportunuty to see Samoa - they should easily see off Chile by 40 pts - and be a good indicator of performance for their big games coming up against Argentina and England. I expect Samoa to make it out of their group.
Wales v Portugal - the last time these teams played it resulted in the highest ever score for Wales. Wont happen this time but Wales should win comfortably by 40 pts.
Ireland v Tonga. This should be closest match today. Tonga should provide some interesting moments but will lose by 20 pts. Ireland need to be very careful to avoid injury or red cards...
Huge agricultural sector, significant natural resources, and a relatively developed industrial sector.
I know it offends your Leninist beliefs, but there's a fair chance of its recovering quite rapidly postwar.
Unlike Russia, probably.
And not just the US/EU.
Korea signs agreement on post-war reconstruction of Ukraine
https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=359291
Penny rich and pound poor, forgetting we get what we pay for. Absurdly stupid as you say, and why it is time for change.
What interest did S Korea take in Ukraine pre-war, for example ?
Of course much depends on the invasion's defeat within the next couple of years, but I think that's reasonably likely.