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Hard to see a LAB overall majority with this poll – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,784
edited October 2023 in General
imageHard to see a LAB overall majority with this poll – politicalbetting.com

With Labour hoping to make at least 25 gains from the SNP in Scotland there’s a new poll from YouGov that has the party’s deficit there up 7%.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 32,822
    First, like Labour
  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,280
    FPT, on arguments about deputy prime ministers: of course, the title "Prime Minister" itself was unofficial for longer than it has been official.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 13,077
    Late evening all :)

    YouGov's weighted numbers in England are 48-26-11 so a 12-point Conservative lead is now a 22-point Labour lead which is a swing of 17%.

    I agree it won't be that but the point is Labour won't need a big win in Scotland if it gets a bigger win in England.
  • Options
    I think this may trigger @Heathener

    Though as I have said previously if the Police Scotland investigation into the SNP is a damp squib, then I expect their loses may be reasonably contained
  • Options

    First, like Labour

    In Scotland ?
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 32,822

    First, like Labour

    In Scotland ?
    50/50 chance imo
  • Options
    Is Starmer's posturing for the red wall turning off floating SNP voters?
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,076
    I don't really see why people are paying so much attention to polls....may was 20 points ahead till the election campaign started. When labour and tories publish manifesto's I expect polls to change
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 32,822
    Pagan2 said:

    I don't really see why people are paying so much attention to polls....may was 20 points ahead till the election campaign started. When labour and tories publish manifesto's I expect polls to change

    You make a good point but then again if we can't discuss polls here, what is PB.com for?
  • Options
    Worth pointing out that the SNP voteshare in that poll wasn't that much different than before and it was more a case of SLAB losing votes to unionist and non-unionist parties.
    With R&W showing a dead heat the week previously, I think it's probably an outlier. Mind you if the SNP *did* win Rutherglen, I think Reeves' overcautious approach on not spending would be to blame (e.g. the two-child benefit cap).
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,691

    Pagan2 said:

    I don't really see why people are paying so much attention to polls....may was 20 points ahead till the election campaign started. When labour and tories publish manifesto's I expect polls to change

    You make a good point but then again if we can't discuss polls here, what is PB.com for?
    Talking about dogs?
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,076

    Pagan2 said:

    I don't really see why people are paying so much attention to polls....may was 20 points ahead till the election campaign started. When labour and tories publish manifesto's I expect polls to change

    You make a good point but then again if we can't discuss polls here, what is PB.com for?
    Not saying we shouldn't discuss them I think you got the wrong idea. Just saying that assuming those poll leads will survive the election campaign is a fallacy. Till the campaign starts I don't think we really have that much of an idea. Take it as you will was merely expressing a caveat
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,165
    EPG said:

    FPT, on arguments about deputy prime ministers: of course, the title "Prime Minister" itself was unofficial for longer than it has been official.

    A fair point, argues in favour of being generous with the Deputy PM lists.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,472
    Who cares whether there's a Labour majority or not?
    Just as long as this immoral, borderline corrupt, cynical, clueless, incompetent bunch don't let the door hit their arses on the way to six figure directorships in the private sector.
    That'll do nicely for me.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,165
    I can still see it an overall majority on this poll, since it would still mean a fair number of gains in Scotland, and I expect an absolute slaughter in the Red Wall and reasonable achievements elsewhere.

    But it would be harder at this level. Yes the perennial point is we won't really know until the campaigns (not that most campaigns change things, but it has happened), but how much recovery are we really expecting from the Tories? Not much I suspect. The SNP? That's more feasible.
  • Options

    Is Starmer's posturing for the red wall turning off floating SNP voters?

    Bit premature to say, but refusing to find the money to get rid of the two-child benefit gap was a gift for Humsa.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,076
    kle4 said:

    I can still see it an overall majority on this poll, since it would still mean a fair number of gains in Scotland, and I expect an absolute slaughter in the Red Wall and reasonable achievements elsewhere.

    But it would be harder at this level. Yes the perennial point is we won't really know until the campaigns (not that most campaigns change things, but it has happened), but how much recovery are we really expecting from the Tories? Not much I suspect. The SNP? That's more feasible.

    I suspect come the actual campaign labour will keep a lead in the polls but will drop a lot. A lot of labour voters will also sit on their hands or vote green once labours manifesto comes out
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,691
    edited September 2023
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I don't really see why people are paying so much attention to polls....may was 20 points ahead till the election campaign started. When labour and tories publish manifesto's I expect polls to change

    You make a good point but then again if we can't discuss polls here, what is PB.com for?
    Not saying we shouldn't discuss them I think you got the wrong idea. Just saying that assuming those poll leads will survive the election campaign is a fallacy. Till the campaign starts I don't think we really have that much of an idea. Take it as you will was merely expressing a caveat
    Elections where a massive poll lead is lost during the campaign are not frequent events. It isn't unusual for the polls to tighten a bit, but 2017 was atypical.

  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 28,147
    "French senatorial hopeful admits digitally tweaking campaign photo

    Juliette de Causans says enhancing her looks is more likely to boost her party’s cause of supporting Europe and the environment"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/09/15/juliette-de-causans-french-politics-digital-edit-posters/
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,076
    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I don't really see why people are paying so much attention to polls....may was 20 points ahead till the election campaign started. When labour and tories publish manifesto's I expect polls to change

    You make a good point but then again if we can't discuss polls here, what is PB.com for?
    Not saying we shouldn't discuss them I think you got the wrong idea. Just saying that assuming those poll leads will survive the election campaign is a fallacy. Till the campaign starts I don't think we really have that much of an idea. Take it as you will was merely expressing a caveat
    Elections where a massive poll lead is lost during the campaign are not frequent events. It isn't unusual for the polls to tighten a bit, but 2017 was atypical.

    Shrugs I think this one will be a 2017. Reading the guardian a lot seem to think starmer is keeping his powder dry. I think when he comes out with a manifesto just like the tories only with more compassion he will lose a lot of voters. Hell I am right wing as you know....given a choice between a labour manifesto like that and a tory manifesto I would probably vote corbyn....not because I think it would work necessarily but at least not a policy of managed decline
  • Options
    ClippPClippP Posts: 1,771
    I think that Labour's antics in the Mid Beds byelection are putting people off. The top priority is to get rid of this corrupt, incompetent Conservative Government. And yet Labour's approach - a mixture of arrogance and greed - shows that their top priority is not to get the Tories out, but the grab power for themselves. In Mid Beds their priority is to prevent the Lib Dems from winning, rather than to get the Tory out themselves.

    This is very much a mistake on their part. If they fail to win an overall majority, and try to start cosying up to the Lib Dems for support, what kind of reaction will they expect? If Labour had any sense at all, they would wind down their campaigning in Mid Beds and concentrate their efforts and resources on Rutherglen and Tamwoth to make sure of those, and leave it to the Lib Dems to put an end to Tory domination in Mid Beds.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 8,592

    Pagan2 said:

    I don't really see why people are paying so much attention to polls....may was 20 points ahead till the election campaign started. When labour and tories publish manifesto's I expect polls to change

    You make a good point but then again if we can't discuss polls here, what is PB.com for?
    Discussing the forthcoming Slovak parliamentary election?
  • Options
    FPT
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.

    Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,783

    Is Starmer's posturing for the red wall turning off floating SNP voters?

    Bit premature to say, but refusing to find the money to get rid of the two-child benefit gap was a gift for Humsa.
    OTOH the Labour candidate in Ru'glen was also denying hje would support that policy (and much else to do with Labour HQ).
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,388
    edited September 2023
    ClippP said:

    I think that Labour's antics in the Mid Beds byelection are putting people off. The top priority is to get rid of this corrupt, incompetent Conservative Government. And yet Labour's approach - a mixture of arrogance and greed - shows that their top priority is not to get the Tories out, but the grab power for themselves. In Mid Beds their priority is to prevent the Lib Dems from winning, rather than to get the Tory out themselves.

    This is very much a mistake on their part. If they fail to win an overall majority, and try to start cosying up to the Lib Dems for support, what kind of reaction will they expect? If Labour had any sense at all, they would wind down their campaigning in Mid Beds and concentrate their efforts and resources on Rutherglen and Tamwoth to make sure of those, and leave it to the Lib Dems to put an end to Tory domination in Mid Beds.

    Sigh. If we want to play rhetorical games, Labour was and is the obvious challenger in mid-Beds and the LibDem effort from 12% was the spoiler, complete with personal attacks on the Labour candidate. I've not been bothering to make the case since in truth both parties were always going to go for it in the absence of a pact, but this sort of partisan whinge is just silly.

    Labour's campaign is now getting serious front-bench engagement (Wes Streeting today) as well as a punishing effort - five canvass sessions plus 7 leaflet rounds today.
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I don't really see why people are paying so much attention to polls....may was 20 points ahead till the election campaign started. When labour and tories publish manifesto's I expect polls to change

    You make a good point but then again if we can't discuss polls here, what is PB.com for?
    Not saying we shouldn't discuss them I think you got the wrong idea. Just saying that assuming those poll leads will survive the election campaign is a fallacy. Till the campaign starts I don't think we really have that much of an idea. Take it as you will was merely expressing a caveat
    Elections where a massive poll lead is lost during the campaign are not frequent events. It isn't unusual for the polls to tighten a bit, but 2017 was atypical.

    And the "May blew it" narrative is a bit of a false memory.Yes, she had a shocking campaign, but Conservative poll ratings started and ended the campaign at pretty much the same score; 44 at the start became 43 at the end, and 43.5 on the day.

    What did happen was that Labour pulled out of their slumber, rising from 25 percent to about 37
    precent at the end, and 41 percent on the day itself.

    Whether that was Jez's brilliance on the stump, one last push to thwart Brexit, or whatever, he pulled the anti-Conservative vote behind him.

    So who are all these people who are terrified of Labour and/or are willing to vote for Rishi as a Magic Grandpa?

    Yes, there's time for the polls to tighten. But we've been saying that since Rishi took over and, once the "crazy lady gone" bounce had happened, the polls have remained resolutely loose for nearly a year.
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 6,642
    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.

    Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
    Except journey times in urban areas are more sensitive to junction density and congestion, not the speed limit.

    That one minute sounds plausible to me. I'd go with the Welsh Government analysis, not the opinion of your dad.
  • Options
    Eabhal said:

    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.

    Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
    Except journey times in urban areas are more sensitive to junction density and congestion, not the speed limit.

    That one minute sounds plausible to me. I'd go with the Welsh Government analysis, not the opinion of your dad.
    You produce utter unmitigated sewage on this issue. I look forward to a multi-pronged Government crackdown on something that's important to you at some point in the near future.
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 6,642

    Eabhal said:

    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.

    Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
    Except journey times in urban areas are more sensitive to junction density and congestion, not the speed limit.

    That one minute sounds plausible to me. I'd go with the Welsh Government analysis, not the opinion of your dad.
    You produce utter unmitigated sewage on this issue. I look forward to a multi-pronged Government crackdown on something that's important to you at some point in the near future.
    Road casualties would be my pick for that crackdown. Grouse moors a close second.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,849
    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.

    Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
    You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,901
    Even if Labour fall short in England of a majority and fail to gain enough seats in Scotland for a majority too (though the Yougov poll still suggests some Labour gains from the SNP), they are still almost certain to win most seats. That gives them room for a confidence and supply deal between Starmer and Davey
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 6,642
    edited September 2023
    kjh said:

    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.

    Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
    You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
    It's actually an argument for LTNs - reduce the number of junctions and therefore reduce the amount of time drivers are held up at lights.
  • Options
    ClippP said:

    I think that Labour's antics in the Mid Beds byelection are putting people off. The top priority is to get rid of this corrupt, incompetent Conservative Government. And yet Labour's approach - a mixture of arrogance and greed - shows that their top priority is not to get the Tories out, but the grab power for themselves. In Mid Beds their priority is to prevent the Lib Dems from winning, rather than to get the Tory out themselves.

    This is very much a mistake on their part. If they fail to win an overall majority, and try to start cosying up to the Lib Dems for support, what kind of reaction will they expect? If Labour had any sense at all, they would wind down their campaigning in Mid Beds and concentrate their efforts and resources on Rutherglen and Tamwoth to make sure of those, and leave it to the Lib Dems to put an end to Tory domination in Mid Beds.

    I am far from a labour supporter and have only voted labour once (in a council election where all the other candidates seem to be of the woke job variety) but its not arrogant for a political party to want power - indeed that is a more healthy aim than just wanting somebody else not to have it .
  • Options
    FPT
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
    kjh said:

    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.

    Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
    You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
    Have you or Eabhal ever been to North or Mid Wales? It's not exacting full of conventional urban areas - there are miles of roads with 30 limits which are basically ribbon built, and where its perfectly possible to sit at the speed limit almost all the time.
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,112
    Russell Brand claiming that a major newspaper and a television company have launched a co-ordinated attack on him

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGr_PVUHn2I
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 6,642
    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
    kjh said:

    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.

    Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
    You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
    Have you or Eabhal ever been to North or Mid Wales? It's not exacting full of conventional urban areas - there are miles of roads with 30 limits which are basically ribbon built, and where its perfectly possible to sit at the speed limit almost all the time.
    Certainly have, and more likely to visit again now it's got safer roads :)
  • Options

    Russell Brand claiming that a major newspaper and a television company have launched a co-ordinated attack on him

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGr_PVUHn2I

    Is that the big reveal

    If so who cares
  • Options
    Eabhal said:

    kjh said:

    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.

    Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
    You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
    It's actually an argument for LTNs - reduce the number of junctions and therefore reduce the amount of time drivers are held up at lights.
    Friend of mine is a mathematician who worked on traffic flow. It's one of the subjects where common sense really doesn't describe what actually happens.
  • Options

    Russell Brand claiming that a major newspaper and a television company have launched a co-ordinated attack on him

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGr_PVUHn2I

    given his star has waned in the last few years he should be flattered that media still think he is a something
  • Options

    Russell Brand claiming that a major newspaper and a television company have launched a co-ordinated attack on him

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGr_PVUHn2I

    There was a rumour that the Dispatches special was an exposé on comedians (plural).
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,849
    edited September 2023
    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
    kjh said:

    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.

    Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
    You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
    Have you or Eabhal ever been to North or Mid Wales? It's not exacting full of conventional urban areas - there are miles of roads with 30 limits which are basically ribbon built, and where its perfectly possible to sit at the speed limit almost all the time.
    Not the point. Just pointing out your maths was bunkum. You specifically said a journey that would take 10 min now takes 15. It can't. It never can, unless you never use your brakes on the entire journey and can accelerate to 30 in an instant and do an emergency stop when you arrive. You might have a valid point, but it doesn't help if you exaggerate the issue. The difference will not be 5 min. It will be a lot less. It is simple maths.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 28,147
    edited September 2023
    ClippP said:

    I think that Labour's antics in the Mid Beds byelection are putting people off. The top priority is to get rid of this corrupt, incompetent Conservative Government. And yet Labour's approach - a mixture of arrogance and greed - shows that their top priority is not to get the Tories out, but the grab power for themselves. In Mid Beds their priority is to prevent the Lib Dems from winning, rather than to get the Tory out themselves.

    This is very much a mistake on their part. If they fail to win an overall majority, and try to start cosying up to the Lib Dems for support, what kind of reaction will they expect? If Labour had any sense at all, they would wind down their campaigning in Mid Beds and concentrate their efforts and resources on Rutherglen and Tamwoth to make sure of those, and leave it to the Lib Dems to put an end to Tory domination in Mid Beds.

    True. The Tories would certainly lose Mid Beds if it was a straight Con/LD fight. As it is, the Tories have a good chance of holding it due to the divided oppositoin.
  • Options
    kjh said:

    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
    kjh said:

    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.

    Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
    You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
    Have you or Eabhal ever been to North or Mid Wales? It's not exacting full of conventional urban areas - there are miles of roads with 30 limits which are basically ribbon built, and where its perfectly possible to sit at the speed limit almost all the time.
    Not the point. Just pointing out your maths was bunkum. You specifically said a journey that would take 10 min now takes 15. It can't. It never can, unless you never use your brakes on the entire journey and can accelerate to 30 in an instant and do an emergency stop when you arrive. You might have a valid point, but it doesn't help if you exaggerate the issue. The difference will not be 5 min. It will be a lot less. It is simple maths.
    I would think the average speed in a 30 zone is probably around 30 (a lot of drivers speed a bit over) so the calc may not be far off
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,901
    Richard Tice announces his new RefUK Shadow Cabinet.

    Ann Widdecombe at Immigration and Justice and David Bull at Health
    https://x.com/TiceRichard/status/1702750941735161993?s=20
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    Richard Tice announces his new RefUK Shadow Cabinet.

    Ann Widdecombe at Immigration and Justice and David Bull at Health
    https://x.com/TiceRichard/status/1702750941735161993?s=20

    Who
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,112
    HYUFD said:

    Richard Tice announces his new RefUK Shadow Cabinet.

    Ann Widdecombe at Immigration and Justice and David Bull at Health
    https://x.com/TiceRichard/status/1702750941735161993?s=20

    Resident Dr on CBBC a few years ago.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,849

    kjh said:

    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
    kjh said:

    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.

    Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
    You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
    Have you or Eabhal ever been to North or Mid Wales? It's not exacting full of conventional urban areas - there are miles of roads with 30 limits which are basically ribbon built, and where its perfectly possible to sit at the speed limit almost all the time.
    Not the point. Just pointing out your maths was bunkum. You specifically said a journey that would take 10 min now takes 15. It can't. It never can, unless you never use your brakes on the entire journey and can accelerate to 30 in an instant and do an emergency stop when you arrive. You might have a valid point, but it doesn't help if you exaggerate the issue. The difference will not be 5 min. It will be a lot less. It is simple maths.
    I would think the average speed in a 30 zone is probably around 30 (a lot of drivers speed a bit over) so the calc may not be far off
    No doubt that is true, but if you are going to apply that you have to apply it to the 20 mph limit as well cancelling out that effect.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,388

    Pagan2 said:

    I don't really see why people are paying so much attention to polls....may was 20 points ahead till the election campaign started. When labour and tories publish manifesto's I expect polls to change

    You make a good point but then again if we can't discuss polls here, what is PB.com for?
    Discussing the forthcoming Slovak parliamentary election?
    Speaking of which, it's looking quite exciting. The populist left (really a vehicle for ex-PM Fico) narrowly ahead of mainstream liberals and social democrats. Various conservative/nationalists parties some way behind, but no obvious majority.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2023_Slovak_parliamentary_election
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,450

    Russell Brand claiming that a major newspaper and a television company have launched a co-ordinated attack on him

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGr_PVUHn2I

    Is that the big reveal

    If so who cares
    It depends what the allegations are.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,450
    On Topic : trying to read *that* much into individual poll movements, this far out from an election seems.... brave.
  • Options

    Russell Brand claiming that a major newspaper and a television company have launched a co-ordinated attack on him

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGr_PVUHn2I

    Is that the big reveal

    If so who cares
    It depends what the allegations are.
    Yes you may be right
  • Options
    The tories have been incredibly lucky with recent by elections - Uxbridge saved by the car crash of ULEZ and probably saved in Mid Bed by the lack of a clear leading challenger. I fear a bloodbath at the GE though as there is no enthusiasm to vote tory when the country has the highest tax rate and infested with woke tripe even after 13 years of tory rule - whats the point?
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 28,147

    HYUFD said:

    Richard Tice announces his new RefUK Shadow Cabinet.

    Ann Widdecombe at Immigration and Justice and David Bull at Health
    https://x.com/TiceRichard/status/1702750941735161993?s=20

    Who
    David Bull was probably the most famous TV doctor about 10 years ago.
  • Options

    Russell Brand claiming that a major newspaper and a television company have launched a co-ordinated attack on him

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGr_PVUHn2I

    Is that the big reveal

    If so who cares
    It depends what the allegations are.
    Yes you may be right
    Not sure why though the whole of Downing Street had to cancel their weekends or whatever similar it was that Toby was claiming earlier according to a post on here.
  • Options

    Russell Brand claiming that a major newspaper and a television company have launched a co-ordinated attack on him

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGr_PVUHn2I

    There was a rumour that the Dispatches special was an exposé on comedians (plural).
    They found some of them weren't actually funny?
  • Options

    Russell Brand claiming that a major newspaper and a television company have launched a co-ordinated attack on him

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGr_PVUHn2I

    Is that the big reveal

    If so who cares
    It depends what the allegations are.
    Yes you may be right
    Not sure why though the whole of Downing Street had to cancel their weekends or whatever similar it was that Toby was claiming earlier according to a post on here.
    I retract this. Having checked Toby's actual tweet he seems to be referring to news staff cancelling their weekends rather than No 10.
  • Options
    FPT
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
    kjh said:

    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
    kjh said:

    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.

    Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
    You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
    Have you or Eabhal ever been to North or Mid Wales? It's not exacting full of conventional urban areas - there are miles of roads with 30 limits which are basically ribbon built, and where its perfectly possible to sit at the speed limit almost all the time.
    Not the point. Just pointing out your maths was bunkum. You specifically said a journey that would take 10 min now takes 15. It can't. It never can, unless you never use your brakes on the entire journey and can accelerate to 30 in an instant and do an emergency stop when you arrive. You might have a valid point, but it doesn't help if you exaggerate the issue. The difference will not be 5 min. It will be a lot less. It is simple maths.
    My meaning, which perhaps I didn't make 100% clear, was that travel on clear stretches of road at the speed limit take half as long again as they used to. This is important, as it describes long sections of most journeys in North and Mid Wales, outside of the school holidays. (inside the school holidays it's carnage as the roads are full of morons who don't know how wide their car is, and keep slowing down to gawp at the view).

    I used to commute 20 miles across part of North Wales, there were perhaps 4 or 5 junctions, at most of which it was unusual to wait. My car comfortably accelerates to 30mph under 10 seconds (if I floor it, it's probably more like 2-3 seconds - it's 0-60 is under 10). Probably 8 miles or so of that 20 miles was in 30 limits - maybe 17 minutes driving allowing a total of a minute for the junctions and acceleration times. That same 8 miles is now going to take around 25 minutes, so if I was still doing it, I would spend almost a quarter of an hour extra commuting every day, on a commute that was only about 30 minutes each to start with. That's a 25% increase in journey time.

    Anyone claiming that sort of change is marginal is either terrible at maths or completely barking mad.

    Going back to that "it only adds a minute a journey" claim, taking my numbers above as pretty typical of quite a lot of North Wales, the only way the claim stacks up there is if the mean journey is 3-4 minutes, which seems implausibly short.
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 6,642
    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
    kjh said:

    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
    kjh said:

    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.

    Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
    You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
    Have you or Eabhal ever been to North or Mid Wales? It's not exacting full of conventional urban areas - there are miles of roads with 30 limits which are basically ribbon built, and where its perfectly possible to sit at the speed limit almost all the time.
    Not the point. Just pointing out your maths was bunkum. You specifically said a journey that would take 10 min now takes 15. It can't. It never can, unless you never use your brakes on the entire journey and can accelerate to 30 in an instant and do an emergency stop when you arrive. You might have a valid point, but it doesn't help if you exaggerate the issue. The difference will not be 5 min. It will be a lot less. It is simple maths.
    My meaning, which perhaps I didn't make 100% clear, was that travel on clear stretches of road at the speed limit take half as long again as they used to. This is important, as it describes long sections of most journeys in North and Mid Wales, outside of the school holidays. (inside the school holidays it's carnage as the roads are full of morons who don't know how wide their car is, and keep slowing down to gawp at the view).

    I used to commute 20 miles across part of North Wales, there were perhaps 4 or 5 junctions, at most of which it was unusual to wait. My car comfortably accelerates to 30mph under 10 seconds (if I floor it, it's probably more like 2-3 seconds - it's 0-60 is under 10). Probably 8 miles or so of that 20 miles was in 30 limits - maybe 17 minutes driving allowing a total of a minute for the junctions and acceleration times. That same 8 miles is now going to take around 25 minutes, so if I was still doing it, I would spend almost a quarter of an hour extra commuting every day, on a commute that was only about 30 minutes each to start with. That's a 25% increase in journey time.

    Anyone claiming that sort of change is marginal is either terrible at maths or completely barking mad.

    Going back to that "it only adds a minute a journey" claim, taking my numbers above as pretty typical of quite a lot of North Wales, the only way the claim stacks up there is if the mean journey is 3-4 minutes, which seems implausibly short.
    I'll go with the Welsh Government analysis unless you can provide an alternative.

    (And most car journeys are implausibly short, to be fair!)
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 28,147
    "The American XL Bully is a monster created by the internet
    The industry driving people to breed the dog is a type of Ponzi scheme, though one that comes with appalling consequences.
    By Will Dunn"

    https://www.newstatesman.com/business/2023/09/american-xl-bully-dog-attack-monster-internet
  • Options
    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
    kjh said:

    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.

    Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
    You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
    Have you or Eabhal ever been to North or Mid Wales? It's not exacting full of conventional urban areas - there are miles of roads with 30 limits which are basically ribbon built, and where its perfectly possible to sit at the speed limit almost all the time.
    Not the point. Just pointing out your maths was bunkum. You specifically said a journey that would take 10 min now takes 15. It can't. It never can, unless you never use your brakes on the entire journey and can accelerate to 30 in an instant and do an emergency stop when you arrive. You might have a valid point, but it doesn't help if you exaggerate the issue. The difference will not be 5 min. It will be a lot less. It is simple maths.
    I would think the average speed in a 30 zone is probably around 30 (a lot of drivers speed a bit over) so the calc may not be far off
    No doubt that is true, but if you are going to apply that you have to apply it to the 20 mph limit as well cancelling out that effect.
    Not really. If we're arguing that, on paper, average speeds should be are less than the speed limit, that applies to both 20mph and 30mph zones. If we make the case that in reality drivers speed a bit so achieving an average of the speed limit (plausible as an approximation), we have to apply that to both 20mph and 30mph zones. If that's the case, then my maths holds exactly, and the same distance covered in these areas takes half as long again in a 20mph zone.

    Of course it's worth nothing that car speedos generally under read by about 3mph, so if people drive around with the needle pointing at the number this makes things even worse - travel at 17mph takes 58% extra time per mile compared to 27mph.
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 6,642
    theProle said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
    kjh said:

    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.

    Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
    You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
    Have you or Eabhal ever been to North or Mid Wales? It's not exacting full of conventional urban areas - there are miles of roads with 30 limits which are basically ribbon built, and where its perfectly possible to sit at the speed limit almost all the time.
    Not the point. Just pointing out your maths was bunkum. You specifically said a journey that would take 10 min now takes 15. It can't. It never can, unless you never use your brakes on the entire journey and can accelerate to 30 in an instant and do an emergency stop when you arrive. You might have a valid point, but it doesn't help if you exaggerate the issue. The difference will not be 5 min. It will be a lot less. It is simple maths.
    I would think the average speed in a 30 zone is probably around 30 (a lot of drivers speed a bit over) so the calc may not be far off
    No doubt that is true, but if you are going to apply that you have to apply it to the 20 mph limit as well cancelling out that effect.
    Not really. If we're arguing that, on paper, average speeds should be are less than the speed limit, that applies to both 20mph and 30mph zones. If we make the case that in reality drivers speed a bit so achieving an average of the speed limit (plausible as an approximation), we have to apply that to both 20mph and 30mph zones. If that's the case, then my maths holds exactly, and the same distance covered in these areas takes half as long again in a 20mph zone.

    Of course it's worth nothing that car speedos generally under read by about 3mph, so if people drive around with the needle pointing at the number this makes things even worse - travel at 17mph takes 58% extra time per mile compared to 27mph.
    Just checked this map and very little of the roads, by mileage, are affected by the 20mph change in North Wales.

    So it's only very short journeys that would be affected to the extent you are suggesting, and the absolute difference in time will be tiny as a result.

    https://datamap.gov.wales/maps/roads-affected-by-changes-to-the-speed-limit-on-re/view#/
  • Options
    theProletheProle Posts: 971
    edited September 2023
    kjh said:

    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
    kjh said:

    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.

    Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
    You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
    Have you or Eabhal ever been to North or Mid Wales? It's not exacting full of conventional urban areas - there are miles of roads with 30 limits which are basically ribbon built, and where its perfectly possible to sit at the speed limit almost all the time.
    Not the point. Just pointing out your maths was bunkum. You specifically said a journey that would take 10 min now takes 15. It can't. It never can, unless you never use your brakes on the entire journey and can accelerate to 30 in an instant and do an emergency stop when you arrive. You might have a valid point, but it doesn't help if you exaggerate the issue. The difference will not be 5 min. It will be a lot less. It is simple maths.
    My meaning, which perhaps I didn't make 100% clear, was that travel on clear stretches of road at the speed limit take half as long again as they used to. This is important, as it describes long sections of most journeys in North and Mid Wales, outside of the school holidays. (inside the school holidays it's carnage as the roads are full of morons who don't know how wide their car is, and keep slowing down to gawp at the view).

    I used to commute 20 miles across part of North Wales, there were perhaps 4 or 5 junctions, at most of which it was unusual to wait. My car comfortably accelerates to 30mph under 10 seconds (if I floor it, it's probably more like 2-3 seconds - it's 0-60 is under 10). Probably 8 miles or so of that 20 miles was in 30 limits - maybe 17 minutes driving allowing a total of a minute for the junctions and acceleration times. That same 8 miles is now going to take around 25 minutes, so if I was still doing it, I would spend almost a quarter of an hour extra commuting every day, on a commute that was only about 30 minutes each to start with. That's a 25% increase in journey time.

    Anyone claiming that sort of change is marginal is either terrible at maths or completely barking mad.

    Going back to that "it only adds a minute a journey" claim, taking my numbers above as pretty typical of quite a lot of North Wales, the only way the claim stacks up there is if the mean journey is 3-4 minutes, which seems implausibly short.


    I'll go with the Welsh Government analysis unless you can provide an alternative.

    (And most car journeys are implausibly short, to be fair!)

    I've just provided a fairly detailed worked example which explains why the Welsh governments number is very unlikely to be true. The only way it can possibly be true is if the average journey contains less than 2 minutes of driving at the speed limit in a 30 zone. This doesn't pass the sniff test for "is it plausible".

    My sister worked for the Welsh civil service in a data analysis function at a fairly high level (although a different sector to roads). Her cynical observation was that most of the statistical requests she got were for attempts at what she described as "policy based evidence making". The ones where the data didn't support the chosen policies (which was most of them) mysteriously never seemed to get followed up or published.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,450
    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
    Eabhal said:

    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
    kjh said:

    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant
    kjh said:

    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.

    Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
    You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
    Have you or Eabhal ever been to North or Mid Wales? It's not exacting full of conventional urban areas - there are miles of roads with 30 limits which are basically ribbon built, and where its perfectly possible to sit at the speed limit almost all the time.
    Not the point. Just pointing out your maths was bunkum. You specifically said a journey that would take 10 min now takes 15. It can't. It never can, unless you never use your brakes on the entire journey and can accelerate to 30 in an instant and do an emergency stop when you arrive. You might have a valid point, but it doesn't help if you exaggerate the issue. The difference will not be 5 min. It will be a lot less. It is simple maths.
    My meaning, which perhaps I didn't make 100% clear, was that travel on clear stretches of road at the speed limit take half as long again as they used to. This is important, as it describes long sections of most journeys in North and Mid Wales, outside of the school holidays. (inside the school holidays it's carnage as the roads are full of morons who don't know how wide their car is, and keep slowing down to gawp at the view).

    I used to commute 20 miles across part of North Wales, there were perhaps 4 or 5 junctions, at most of which it was unusual to wait. My car comfortably accelerates to 30mph under 10 seconds (if I floor it, it's probably more like 2-3 seconds - it's 0-60 is under 10). Probably 8 miles or so of that 20 miles was in 30 limits - maybe 17 minutes driving allowing a total of a minute for the junctions and acceleration times. That same 8 miles is now going to take around 25 minutes, so if I was still doing it, I would spend almost a quarter of an hour extra commuting every day, on a commute that was only about 30 minutes each to start with. That's a 25% increase in journey time.

    Anyone claiming that sort of change is marginal is either terrible at maths or completely barking mad.

    Going back to that "it only adds a minute a journey" claim, taking my numbers above as pretty typical of quite a lot of North Wales, the only way the claim stacks up there is if the mean journey is 3-4 minutes, which seems implausibly short.
    I'll go with the Welsh Government analysis unless you can provide an alternative.

    (And most car journeys are implausibly short, to be fair!)
    I've just provided a fairly detailed worked example which explains why the Welsh governments number is very unlikely to be true. The only way it can possibly be true is if the average journey contains less than 2 minutes of driving at the speed limit in a 30 zone. This doesn't pass the sniff test for "is it plausible".

    My sister worked for the Welsh civil service in a data analysis function at a fairly high level (although a different sector to roads). Her cynical observation was that most of the statistical requests she got were for attempts at what she described as "policy based evidence making". The ones where the data didn't support the chosen policies (which was most of them) mysteriously never seemed to get followed up or published.
    ‘‘Twas ever thus.

    I went to school with a boy, whose father had been a Farnborough boffin. He wrote a well argued paper pointing out that Concorde would miss all its targets, and that large subsonic airliners were the way to go. His reward for speaking out of turn was to be fired and black balled in the U.K. aviation industry. It was made clear to him that this was done at a political level, since Concorde was political.

    He ended up working for NASA, and had the enjoyment of turning the tables on one of his persecutors some years later, when he, in turn tried to get a job in the US aviation industry.
  • Options

    Russell Brand claiming that a major newspaper and a television company have launched a co-ordinated attack on him

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGr_PVUHn2I

    Is that the big reveal

    If so who cares
    Agreed; who cares? We were hoping for a political story.
  • Options
    theProletheProle Posts: 971
    edited September 2023
    kjh said:

    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.

    Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
    You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
    Have you or Eabhal ever been to North or Mid Wales? It's not exacting full of conventional urban areas - there are miles of roads with 30 limits which are basically ribbon built, and where its perfectly possible to sit at the speed limit almost all the time.

    Not the point. Just pointing out your maths was bunkum. You specifically said a journey that would take 10 min now takes 15. It can't. It never can, unless you never use your brakes on the entire journey and can accelerate to 30 in an instant and do an emergency stop when you arrive. You might have a valid point, but it doesn't help if you exaggerate the issue. The difference will not be 5 min. It will be a lot less. It is simple maths.

    I would think the average speed in a 30 zone is probably around 30 (a lot of drivers speed a bit over) so the calc may not be far off

    No doubt that is true, but if you are going to apply that you have to apply it to the 20 mph limit as well cancelling out that effect.


    Not really. If we're arguing that, on paper, average speeds should be are less than the speed limit, that applies to both 20mph and 30mph zones. If we make the case that in reality drivers speed a bit so achieving an average of the speed limit (plausible as an approximation), we have to apply that to both 20mph and 30mph zones. If that's the case, then my maths holds exactly, and the same distance covered in these areas takes half as long again in a 20mph zone.

    Of course it's worth nothing that car speedos generally under read by about 3mph, so if people drive around with the needle pointing at the number this makes things even worse - travel at 17mph takes 58% extra time per mile compared to 27mph.

    Just checked this map and very little of the roads, by mileage, are affected by the 20mph change in North Wales.

    So it's only very short journeys that would be affected to the extent you are suggesting, and the absolute difference in time will be tiny as a result.

    https://datamap.gov.wales/maps/roads-affected-by-changes-to-the-speed-limit-on-re/view#/

    Try doing say Barmouth to Criccieth under the new regime - lot of new 20mph in that.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 28,147
    edited September 2023
    More than 1,000 people in each of Wansbeck, Blyth Valley and North Tyneside have signed a petition saying this:

    "I believe that the XL bully is a kind, beautiful natured breed that loves children and people in general, and are very loyal and loving pets."

    https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/643611
    https://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=643611
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 11,685
    "We don’t often dwell on it but the challenge facing LAB at the election is absolutely massive if it wants to achieve an overall majority."

    :lol:
    it's every second article
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 11,685
    edited September 2023
    theProle said:


    Try doing say Barmouth to Criccieth under the new regime - lot of new 20mph in that.

    I've done the calculations so you don't have to. On the Barmouth to Criccieth route, the following stretches are new 20mph zones:

    Barmouth (800m)
    Tal-y-bont (550m)
    Dyffryn Ardudwy (1.7km)
    Llanbedr (800m)
    Harlech (950m)
    Talsarnau (400m)
    Penrhyndeudraeth (550m)
    Criccieth (650m)

    Total = 6.4km = 3.97miles; let's call it 4 miles.

    assuming you're always travelling at the maximum speed (not a valid assumption, but it gives the absolute worst case scenario):
    4 miles @ 30mph = 8 minutes
    4 miles @ 20mph = 12 minutes

    Journey of ~40km. Google maps says 47 minutes. New travel time: 47 + 4 = 51 minutes.
  • Options
    Sorry, why do we care about Russell Brand?
    He’s a nut job and a has-been.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 28,147
    edited September 2023

    Sorry, why do we care about Russell Brand?
    He’s a nut job and a has-been.

    He was the darling of the left when he did this famous interview with Jeremy Paxman on Newsnight in 2013.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YR4CseY9pk
  • Options
    Andy_JS said:

    Sorry, why do we care about Russell Brand?
    He’s a nut job and a has-been.

    He was the darling of the left when he did this famous interview with Jeremy Paxman on Newsnight in 2013.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YR4CseY9pk
    I always thought he was a bad ‘un.
    Ditto David Walliams.

    In fact Williams is famous in my household for being an out-and-out awful human being.
  • Options
    My God, Sunak really is a 🔔 end.


  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 11,685

    Sorry, why do we care about Russell Brand?
    He’s a nut job and a has-been.

    Russell Brand is who Leon wants to be when he grows up
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,535
    Farooq said:

    Sorry, why do we care about Russell Brand?
    He’s a nut job and a has-been.

    Russell Brand is who Leon wants to be when he grows up
    Leon will never grow up. 😀
  • Options
    Murdoch team told Sunak not to quit over partygate
    Plan to resign from Boris Johnson's cabinet shared with News Corp executives

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/09/15/murdoch-team-told-sunak-not-to-quit-over-partygate/ (£££)

    Rishi Sunak, then Chancellor of the Exchequer, had planned to resign on receiving a partygate FPN, but was persuaded to stay on by Murdoch executives, only resigning after The Saj as part of a wave that would end the premiership of Boris Johnson. If Sunak had resigned earlier, he might not have become Prime Minister.

    This is revealed in a forthcoming book by Telegraph man Ben Riley-Smith, The Right to Rule : Thirteen Years, Five Prime Ministers and the Implosion of the Tories.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 25,240
    edited September 2023
    Marmalade could be renamed by jammy EU officials
    Fruit preserve could have ‘citrus’ added to its name under Brussels ‘breakfast directives’, as UK mulls whether to follow suit

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/15/citrus-marmalade-jam-european-union-breakfast-directives/ (£££)

    The EU might change to calling jam marmalade, and marmalade will become citrus marmalade. Britain (huzzah for Brexit) will need to choose whether to follow suit or diverge from the continent by keeping the proper names.

    But in Northern Ireland, thanks to Boris's broken Brexit and Rishi's Windsor Framework, locally-made jams and marmalades will have to follow EU rules but those imported from mainland Britain will not, although of course the government might change our rules in parallel with Brussels.
  • Options
    Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 616
    theProle said:


    kjh said:

    theProle said:

    FPT

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    BBC 6 o’clock news report on the rollout of 20MPH speed limits in wales might as well have been written by the Welsh regime and Brake.

    To be fair Plaid forced Welsh labour this week into conceding it will keep it under review and allow councils more discretion

    There is a lot of anger about it both in the media and social media

    One local takeaway has advertised

    Be sure to get your hot takeaway by tomorrow

    After that it will be cold !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smiley:
    If a bunch of Clarkson-worshiping gammons are getting irate, then it must be a good policy.
    Why would you insult the very many Welsh residents across the political spectrum who disagree with the policy ?
    If they disagree they need to vote out the Welsh government. Isn't that what those of us unhappy with the past 13 years of Tory mis-rule have been constantly told?
    Plaid effectively forced labour into a compromise solution this week, winning a vote on their amendment that the Welsh Government have to keep the policy under review, give local authorities more discretion, and pay for any further alterations

    I am not anti 20mph, indeed I support it around schools and congested areas, but to force the whole Principality to default 20mph is causing considerable anger across the political divide especially when it is on roads that 30mph is reasonable
    A review is a big mistake. The opposition forced the same in Edinburgh, and the findings illustrated just how effective the 20mph limits were.

    Now the council are using the same report to roll out even more 20mph limits. Woops!
    Isn’t this a bit like lockdown? Does locking down save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any other downsides.
    Does a blanket 20mph zone save lives? Yes. Do it, and ignore any potential downsides.

    Personally think 20 is right in many built up areas, but depending on the road conditions, where it is etc. Blanket 20mph seems lazy.
    The problem the anti-20mph campaigners have is that child pedestrian casualties tend to happen uniformly across neighbourhoods, not just outside schools.

    So the data supports blanket 20mph. It's also cheaper to implement, easier for drivers to understand, and induces a "new normal". It increases journey times by only a marginal amount, and that's before you take into account reduced collisions and road closures.
    To claim that it only increases journey times by a marginal amount is bunkum. It's a speed reduction of a third, that's actually quite significant - a journey that would have taken 10 minutes now takes 15. That doesn't matter much for short distances in urban areas, where one rapidly works ones way onto faster trunk roads. It's a massive issue for areas like North Wales where trunk roads are also the high street in most villages, so every significant journey involves miles and miles of 20mph.

    Dad got some propaganda about it through the door the other day clamining that it only added a minute to the average journey - he observed that this was utterly inplausible unless the average journey used to only have a total of only 2 minutes in a 30 limit.
    You can't say a 10 min journey now takes 15 because of the speed limit change. You don't constantly do 30 in a 30 mph area. You slow down and stop a lot in urban areas. For all you know a 20 mph limit might make it smoother with less stop starting . It might be there is no difference in the average speed.
    Have you or Eabhal ever been to North or Mid Wales? It's not exacting full of conventional urban areas - there are miles of roads with 30 limits which are basically ribbon built, and where its perfectly possible to sit at the speed limit almost all the time.
    Not the point. Just pointing out your maths was bunkum. You specifically said a journey that would take 10 min now takes 15. It can't. It never can, unless you never use your brakes on the entire journey and can accelerate to 30 in an instant and do an emergency stop when you arrive. You might have a valid point, but it doesn't help if you exaggerate the issue. The difference will not be 5 min. It will be a lot less. It is simple maths.

    I would think the average speed in a 30 zone is probably around 30 (a lot of drivers speed a bit over) so the calc may not be far off

    No doubt that is true, but if you are going to apply that you have to apply it to the 20 mph limit as well cancelling out that effect.


    Not really. If we're arguing that, on paper, average speeds should be are less than the speed limit, that applies to both 20mph and 30mph zones. If we make the case that in reality drivers speed a bit so achieving an average of the speed limit (plausible as an approximation), we have to apply that to both 20mph and 30mph zones. If that's the case, then my maths holds exactly, and the same distance covered in these areas takes half as long again in a 20mph zone.

    Of course it's worth nothing that car speedos generally under read by about 3mph, so if people drive around with the needle pointing at the number this makes things even worse - travel at 17mph takes 58% extra time per mile compared to 27mph.

    Just checked this map and very little of the roads, by mileage, are affected by the 20mph change in North Wales.

    So it's only very short journeys that would be affected to the extent you are suggesting, and the absolute difference in time will be tiny as a result.

    https://datamap.gov.wales/maps/roads-affected-by-changes-to-the-speed-limit-on-re/view#/

    Try doing say Barmouth to Criccieth under the new regime - lot of new 20mph in that.

    You are missing two very obvious points.
    1. Many of the 'through' routes will remain at 30.
    2. The whole point of the excercise is to slow traffic down - in mainly residential streets - to reduce accidents.

    So why dont you just SLOW DOWN!!
  • Options

    Is Starmer's posturing for the red wall turning off floating SNP voters?

    I've wondered the same.

    He will prioritise the former because there are simply far more seats there.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,989
    viewcode said:

    Farooq said:

    Sorry, why do we care about Russell Brand?
    He’s a nut job and a has-been.

    Russell Brand is who Leon wants to be when he grows up
    Leon will never grow up. 😀
    Well if that means avoiding becoming Brand, then long may he remain adolescent.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,989
    TES eat your heart out.
    Mid Silla dynasty bling.


  • Options
    Andy_JS said:

    More than 1,000 people in each of Wansbeck, Blyth Valley and North Tyneside have signed a petition saying this:

    "I believe that the XL bully is a kind, beautiful natured breed that loves children and people in general, and are very loyal and loving pets."

    https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/643611
    https://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=643611

    We are absurdly sentimental about animals in this country.

    The breed isn't like that anyway but dogs don't "love children and people in general"; they are pack animals and to the extent they appear to be it's because they see themselves as part of that pack with a clear role in its pecking order, and are loyal to who leads it and feeds them. Sometimes this extends to jealously, and then more basic instincts can kick in, which is why they can attack kids. They won't generally attack the owner unless they are absurdly indisciplined and want to make a play for pack leader.

    Either way, basic dog psychology needs to be considered here. It's an animal - not a person with four legs.
  • Options

    Andy_JS said:

    Sorry, why do we care about Russell Brand?
    He’s a nut job and a has-been.

    He was the darling of the left when he did this famous interview with Jeremy Paxman on Newsnight in 2013.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YR4CseY9pk
    I always thought he was a bad ‘un.
    Ditto David Walliams.

    In fact Williams is famous in my household for being an out-and-out awful human being.
    Why?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,989

    My God, Sunak really is a 🔔 end.


    That is an absurdly stupid idea.

    The whole thing is pointless if it doesn't run into Euston.
    Or Manchester.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,989
    This is how liberated from the Russia-occupiers Andriivka, Donetsk Oblast, looks like.
    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1702849789308932497
  • Options
    Nigelb said:

    This is how liberated from the Russia-occupiers Andriivka, Donetsk Oblast, looks like.
    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1702849789308932497

    Too many lives expended for scorched earth and rubble. Perhaps in the peace settlement, Russia will be made to pay for reconstruction, if not compensation. More likely Ukraine will be faced with massive debt and hoping for Marshall Plan-like handouts from the EU or United States.
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 6,642
    edited September 2023
    Farooq said:

    theProle said:


    Try doing say Barmouth to Criccieth under the new regime - lot of new 20mph in that.

    I've done the calculations so you don't have to. On the Barmouth to Criccieth route, the following stretches are new 20mph zones:

    Barmouth (800m)
    Tal-y-bont (550m)
    Dyffryn Ardudwy (1.7km)
    Llanbedr (800m)
    Harlech (950m)
    Talsarnau (400m)
    Penrhyndeudraeth (550m)
    Criccieth (650m)

    Total = 6.4km = 3.97miles; let's call it 4 miles.

    assuming you're always travelling at the maximum speed (not a valid assumption, but it gives the absolute worst case scenario):
    4 miles @ 30mph = 8 minutes
    4 miles @ 20mph = 12 minutes

    Journey of ~40km. Google maps says 47 minutes. New travel time: 47 + 4 = 51 minutes.
    Extraordinary the fuss people are making.
  • Options
    OT rocket launch due in 5-ish minutes livestreamed at:-
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZtcZ924kOQ
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,295

    Nigelb said:

    This is how liberated from the Russia-occupiers Andriivka, Donetsk Oblast, looks like.
    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1702849789308932497

    Too many lives expended for scorched earth and rubble. Perhaps in the peace settlement, Russia will be made to pay for reconstruction, if not compensation. More likely Ukraine will be faced with massive debt and hoping for Marshall Plan-like handouts from the EU or United States.
    The debt is kind of irrelevant because their capacity to repay it will not exist in our lifetimes. It's a punctured blow-up doll of a country that needs regular infusions of cash from the US just to keep the lights on.

    Their situation will be happier if they can get more of the industrial capacity and resources of Donbas before the SMO ends as they can offer those up for plunderous rapine by EU/US corporations and thus pique more interest in 'reconstruction'.
  • Options
    Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 616
    RWC Stuff:

    I am glad to see NZ followed the script last night with a thumping win over Namibia. But I cant see them winning this year.
    Todays matches have three predictable wins but still interesting:
    Samoa v Chile - This is first opportunuty to see Samoa - they should easily see off Chile by 40 pts - and be a good indicator of performance for their big games coming up against Argentina and England. I expect Samoa to make it out of their group.
    Wales v Portugal - the last time these teams played it resulted in the highest ever score for Wales. Wont happen this time but Wales should win comfortably by 40 pts.
    Ireland v Tonga. This should be closest match today. Tonga should provide some interesting moments but will lose by 20 pts. Ireland need to be very careful to avoid injury or red cards...
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,989
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is how liberated from the Russia-occupiers Andriivka, Donetsk Oblast, looks like.
    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1702849789308932497

    Too many lives expended for scorched earth and rubble. Perhaps in the peace settlement, Russia will be made to pay for reconstruction, if not compensation. More likely Ukraine will be faced with massive debt and hoping for Marshall Plan-like handouts from the EU or United States.
    The debt is kind of irrelevant because their capacity to repay it will not exist in our lifetimes. It's a punctured blow-up doll of a country that needs regular infusions of cash from the US just to keep the lights on.

    Their situation will be happier if they can get more of the industrial capacity and resources of Donbas before the SMO ends as they can offer those up for plunderous rapine by EU/US corporations and thus pique more interest in 'reconstruction'.
    On the contrary, while it will carry a shed load of debt, its economic prospects aren't awful.
    Huge agricultural sector, significant natural resources, and a relatively developed industrial sector.

    I know it offends your Leninist beliefs, but there's a fair chance of its recovering quite rapidly postwar.
    Unlike Russia, probably.

    And not just the US/EU.

    Korea signs agreement on post-war reconstruction of Ukraine
    https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=359291
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    Farooq said:

    theProle said:


    Try doing say Barmouth to Criccieth under the new regime - lot of new 20mph in that.

    I've done the calculations so you don't have to. On the Barmouth to Criccieth route, the following stretches are new 20mph zones:

    Barmouth (800m)
    Tal-y-bont (550m)
    Dyffryn Ardudwy (1.7km)
    Llanbedr (800m)
    Harlech (950m)
    Talsarnau (400m)
    Penrhyndeudraeth (550m)
    Criccieth (650m)

    Total = 6.4km = 3.97miles; let's call it 4 miles.

    assuming you're always travelling at the maximum speed (not a valid assumption, but it gives the absolute worst case scenario):
    4 miles @ 30mph = 8 minutes
    4 miles @ 20mph = 12 minutes

    Journey of ~40km. Google maps says 47 minutes. New travel time: 47 + 4 = 51 minutes.
    It is not the worst case at all. Driving at 20 might mean you hit a red traffic light and wait 2 minutes at the lights during which a combine harvester merges in ahead of you...58 minutes.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,295
    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is how liberated from the Russia-occupiers Andriivka, Donetsk Oblast, looks like.
    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1702849789308932497

    Too many lives expended for scorched earth and rubble. Perhaps in the peace settlement, Russia will be made to pay for reconstruction, if not compensation. More likely Ukraine will be faced with massive debt and hoping for Marshall Plan-like handouts from the EU or United States.
    The debt is kind of irrelevant because their capacity to repay it will not exist in our lifetimes. It's a punctured blow-up doll of a country that needs regular infusions of cash from the US just to keep the lights on.

    Their situation will be happier if they can get more of the industrial capacity and resources of Donbas before the SMO ends as they can offer those up for plunderous rapine by EU/US corporations and thus pique more interest in 'reconstruction'.
    On the contrary, while it will carry a shed load of debt, its economic prospects aren't awful.
    Huge agricultural sector, significant natural resources, and a relatively developed industrial sector.

    It was the poorest country in Europe with all of those advantages before it got smashed to fuck and depopulated. Why will it be better?
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    My God, Sunak really is a 🔔 end.


    That is an absurdly stupid idea.

    The whole thing is pointless if it doesn't run into Euston.
    Yes it is pointless, but also emblematic of what the Tories stand for. Do things, especially on investment, on the cheap, invest the minimum, then move the goalposts and cut corners as we go along. Applies not just to transport but our public sector workforce, school buildings, the courts, hospitals and everything else.

    Penny rich and pound poor, forgetting we get what we pay for. Absurdly stupid as you say, and why it is time for change.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,989
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is how liberated from the Russia-occupiers Andriivka, Donetsk Oblast, looks like.
    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1702849789308932497

    Too many lives expended for scorched earth and rubble. Perhaps in the peace settlement, Russia will be made to pay for reconstruction, if not compensation. More likely Ukraine will be faced with massive debt and hoping for Marshall Plan-like handouts from the EU or United States.
    The debt is kind of irrelevant because their capacity to repay it will not exist in our lifetimes. It's a punctured blow-up doll of a country that needs regular infusions of cash from the US just to keep the lights on.

    Their situation will be happier if they can get more of the industrial capacity and resources of Donbas before the SMO ends as they can offer those up for plunderous rapine by EU/US corporations and thus pique more interest in 'reconstruction'.
    On the contrary, while it will carry a shed load of debt, its economic prospects aren't awful.
    Huge agricultural sector, significant natural resources, and a relatively developed industrial sector.

    It was the poorest country in Europe with all of those advantages before it got smashed to fuck and depopulated. Why will it be better?
    For the same reasons countries which have integrated into the west transformed their economies.
    What interest did S Korea take in Ukraine pre-war, for example ?

    Of course much depends on the invasion's defeat within the next couple of years, but I think that's reasonably likely.
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    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Richard Tice announces his new RefUK Shadow Cabinet.

    Ann Widdecombe at Immigration and Justice and David Bull at Health
    https://x.com/TiceRichard/status/1702750941735161993?s=20

    Who
    David Bull was probably the most famous TV doctor about 10 years ago.
    Doctor Who?
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,872

    My God, Sunak really is a 🔔 end.


    That is an absurdly stupid idea.

    The whole thing is pointless if it doesn't run into Euston.
    Yes it is pointless, but also emblematic of what the Tories stand for. Do things, especially on investment, on the cheap, invest the minimum, then move the goalposts and cut corners as we go along. Applies not just to transport but our public sector workforce, school buildings, the courts, hospitals and everything else.

    Penny rich and pound poor, forgetting we get what we pay for. Absurdly stupid as you say, and why it is time for change.
    The issue as I see it is that there is still a lingering Thatcherite mindset from the 1980s, which says that the public sector shouldn't spend money. So things don't get built, maintained properly, or replaced. It is the opposite to most other countries where public infrastructure is built and maintained. As a result we live in a perpetual substandard mess.
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