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Starmer is more popular than Corbyn in London – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • Leon said:


    It's likely gonna end in a muddy, bloody armistice. The only question is how much territory Ukraine will be forced to yield to get that truce. To my pessimistic mind. There are more upbeat opinions to be had

    157,500 over 7,200 = 22.5


  • Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    It's an article that is two days old.

    Events have moved on.
  • Leon said:


    It's likely gonna end in a muddy, bloody armistice. The only question is how much territory Ukraine will be forced to yield to get that truce. To my pessimistic mind. There are more upbeat opinions to be had

    157,500 over 7,200 = 22.5


    Bot
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075
    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    I have been saying for at least the last fortnight that whilst everybody was focussing on the Ukrainian counter-attack south of Orikhiv in the Zaporhizia Oblast, the Russians were making advances in the North East, which is where we find the ... Kharkiv Oblast. Given that they have in the past week slowed their advance towards Lyman, I am not as despairing as I was, but the point remains



  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    They are far from getting beaten that is for sure. Russians are getting humped in the south.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    It's an article that is two days old.

    Events have moved on.

    Lol
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    I have been saying for at least the last fortnight that whilst everybody was focussing on the Ukrainian counter-attack south of Orikhiv in the Zaporhizia Oblast, the Russians were making advances in the North East, which is where we find the ... Kharkiv Oblast. Given that they have in the past week slowed their advance towards Lyman, I am not as despairing as I was, but the point remains



    It looks like a stalemate to me. I hope I’m wrong
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    edited September 2023

    Leon said:


    It's likely gonna end in a muddy, bloody armistice. The only question is how much territory Ukraine will be forced to yield to get that truce. To my pessimistic mind. There are more upbeat opinions to be had

    157,500 over 7,200 = 22.5


    Bot
    Do the maths, @CorrectHorseBat!

    Russia is currently illegally occupying/annexed:

    Ukrainian territory
    Four eastern Oblasts of Ukraine: 108,845 sq. km
    Crimea/Sevastopol: 26,945 sq. km

    Moldovan territory
    Transnistria: 4,163 sq. km

    Georgian territory
    South Ossetia: 3,900 sq. km
    Abkhazia: 8,665 sq. km

    Japanese territory
    South Kurils: 5,030 sq. km

    Total: 157,548 sq. km
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075
    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    The Cold War tanks that the Russians have demothballed are perfectly adequate. The area is wooded, wet and muddy. Lines of sight are not from horizon to horizon. Given this, and the reliability of the vintage, they suffice. Provided they don't drive thru a minefield in full view of artillery, they'll be fine.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    It's an article that is two days old.

    Events have moved on.
    It is talking about the beginning of August as well.
  • Leon said:


    It's likely gonna end in a muddy, bloody armistice. The only question is how much territory Ukraine will be forced to yield to get that truce. To my pessimistic mind. There are more upbeat opinions to be had

    157,500 over 7,200 = 22.5


    Bot
    Do the maths, @CorrectHorseBat!

    Russia is currently illegally occupying/annexed:

    Ukrainian territory
    Four eastern Oblasts of Ukraine: 108,845 sq. km
    Crimea/Sevastopol: 26,945 sq. km

    Moldovan territory
    Transnistria: 4,163 sq. km

    Georgian territory
    South Ossetia: 3,900 sq. km
    Abkhazia: 8,665 sq. km

    Japanese territory
    South Kurils: 5,030 sq. km

    Total: 157,748 sq. km
    Bot
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075
    ...
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    edited September 2023

    Leon said:


    It's likely gonna end in a muddy, bloody armistice. The only question is how much territory Ukraine will be forced to yield to get that truce. To my pessimistic mind. There are more upbeat opinions to be had

    157,500 over 7,200 = 22.5


    Bot
    Do the maths, @CorrectHorseBat!

    Russia is currently illegally occupying/annexed:

    Ukrainian territory
    Four eastern Oblasts of Ukraine: 108,845 sq. km
    Crimea/Sevastopol: 26,945 sq. km

    Moldovan territory
    Transnistria: 4,163 sq. km

    Georgian territory
    South Ossetia: 3,900 sq. km
    Abkhazia: 8,665 sq. km

    Japanese territory
    South Kurils: 5,030 sq. km

    Total: 157,548 sq. km
    Bot
    @CorrectHorseBat = Russian occupation denier!
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748

    Chris said:

    Surely you need a straight poll of first preferences for a particular contest - e.g. Khan versus Corbyn versus Hall - rather than trying to draw conclusions from a list of favourability ratings of a lot of potential candidates?

    Next greater London mayoral race is FPTP.
    That's why you need a straight poll of first preferences for a particular contest!
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075

    viewcode said:

    I just asked the train ticket seller for a return ticket to Arrogate via That London. He refused, saying that due to government upfuckery the machine would only dispense a single. The single is 60% the price of a double.

    The Government is full of Bad People who do Bad Things, and I hope their genitals rot. From Plague. On Acid. In Space. Grrr.

    They are encouraging you to stay in Harrogate. That’s levelling up in action…
    I think Harrogate
    Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    David Smith is good in the Times today.
    Wages, in real terms, are still lower than in 2008.
    Productivity remains well behind global peers.

    “Most of the debate about how to lift productivity, by boosting investment, the quality of the infrastructure, innovation and skills has taken place outside government, and outside parliament”.

    The spending growth forecasts for the NHS are shocking, even in the medium scenario, af over £250bn per annum by 2035 at a time when the tax burden is already at its highest level for 70 years.

    That simply isn’t sustainable. Starmer may have to go to China.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-8-things-politicians-should-be-taking-about-but-arent-ccj2jnjvq
    A lot of these problems are international. All advanced western nations suffer from some or all of them. The UK's is a toxic mix, but a different cocktail of toxicity can be found elsewhere

    The combo of an ageing society with the insane and temporary solution of mass immigration is peculiarly stupid, and you can find this in France, Germany, USA, Spain, Holland, Sweden, and more, along with all the ills that spring from it

    It is tempting to look at the list of problems and yield to blank despair. There's no fixing it. However there is one potential and significant reason for hope: AI. If it fulfils its promise it will make humans vastly more productive, and Britain's productiviy issues - as an example - will disppear overnight

    Let us pray to the God of the bots



    France is one of the few countries that doesn't have the problem in the same way

    In WW1, France fought like lions but the loss of life was large.
    Not enough men were left to father children
    As a result the Armee was quite small in the 30s to fight WW2
    So they fought badly and lost
    Having learned the demographic lesson post WW2 they gave families help to have babies and babies they had
    So that, combined with immigration, mean they have enough young people to look after the old


    Except France still isn’t at replacement level for fertility rate AND it probably has the worst race relations in Europe, after Sweden

    France is not a solution. They did well with nukes tho
    Fair point
  • Leon said:


    It's likely gonna end in a muddy, bloody armistice. The only question is how much territory Ukraine will be forced to yield to get that truce. To my pessimistic mind. There are more upbeat opinions to be had

    157,500 over 7,200 = 22.5


    Bot
    Do the maths, @CorrectHorseBat!

    Russia is currently illegally occupying/annexed:

    Ukrainian territory
    Four eastern Oblasts of Ukraine: 108,845 sq. km
    Crimea/Sevastopol: 26,945 sq. km

    Moldovan territory
    Transnistria: 4,163 sq. km

    Georgian territory
    South Ossetia: 3,900 sq. km
    Abkhazia: 8,665 sq. km

    Japanese territory
    South Kurils: 5,030 sq. km

    Total: 157,548 sq. km
    Bot
    @CorrectHorseBat = Russian occupation denier!
    Nobody is saying that. I am just saying you're a bot who posts the same post over and over.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
  • Leon said:


    It's likely gonna end in a muddy, bloody armistice. The only question is how much territory Ukraine will be forced to yield to get that truce. To my pessimistic mind. There are more upbeat opinions to be had

    157,500 over 7,200 = 22.5


    Bot
    Do the maths, @CorrectHorseBat!

    Russia is currently illegally occupying/annexed:

    Ukrainian territory
    Four eastern Oblasts of Ukraine: 108,845 sq. km
    Crimea/Sevastopol: 26,945 sq. km

    Moldovan territory
    Transnistria: 4,163 sq. km

    Georgian territory
    South Ossetia: 3,900 sq. km
    Abkhazia: 8,665 sq. km

    Japanese territory
    South Kurils: 5,030 sq. km

    Total: 157,548 sq. km
    Bot
    @CorrectHorseBat = Russian occupation denier!
    Nobody is saying that. I am just saying you're a bot who posts the same post over and over.
    Why are you so pissed off with the data when it's presented to you, Mr. Russian Occupation Denier?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    If anyone was thinking of seeing The Equaliser 3 at the cinema, don't. The movie seems to be missing an entire third act, and just...ends.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986

    Leon said:


    It's likely gonna end in a muddy, bloody armistice. The only question is how much territory Ukraine will be forced to yield to get that truce. To my pessimistic mind. There are more upbeat opinions to be had

    157,500 over 7,200 = 22.5


    Bot
    Do the maths, @CorrectHorseBat!

    Russia is currently illegally occupying/annexed:

    Ukrainian territory
    Four eastern Oblasts of Ukraine: 108,845 sq. km
    Crimea/Sevastopol: 26,945 sq. km

    Moldovan territory
    Transnistria: 4,163 sq. km

    Georgian territory
    South Ossetia: 3,900 sq. km
    Abkhazia: 8,665 sq. km

    Japanese territory
    South Kurils: 5,030 sq. km

    Total: 157,548 sq. km
    Bot
    @CorrectHorseBat = Russian occupation denier!
    Nobody is saying that. I am just saying you're a bot who posts the same post over and over.
    Sometimes people need reminding of the brutal facts.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    David Smith is good in the Times today.
    Wages, in real terms, are still lower than in 2008.
    Productivity remains well behind global peers.

    “Most of the debate about how to lift productivity, by boosting investment, the quality of the infrastructure, innovation and skills has taken place outside government, and outside parliament”.

    The spending growth forecasts for the NHS are shocking, even in the medium scenario, af over £250bn per annum by 2035 at a time when the tax burden is already at its highest level for 70 years.

    That simply isn’t sustainable. Starmer may have to go to China.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-8-things-politicians-should-be-taking-about-but-arent-ccj2jnjvq
    A lot of these problems are international. All advanced western nations suffer from some or all of them. The UK's is a toxic mix, but a different cocktail of toxicity can be found elsewhere

    The combo of an ageing society with the insane and temporary solution of mass immigration is peculiarly stupid, and you can find this in France, Germany, USA, Spain, Holland, Sweden, and more, along with all the ills that spring from it

    It is tempting to look at the list of problems and yield to blank despair. There's no fixing it. However there is one potential and significant reason for hope: AI. If it fulfils its promise it will make humans vastly more productive, and Britain's productiviy issues - as an example - will disppear overnight

    Let us pray to the God of the bots
    France is one of the few countries that doesn't have the problem in the same way

    In WW1, France fought like lions but the loss of life was large.
    Not enough men were left to father children
    As a result the Armee was quite small in the 30s to fight WW2
    So they fought badly and lost
    Having learned the demographic lesson post WW2 they gave families help to have babies and babies they had
    So that, combined with immigration, mean they have enough young people to look after the old


    No, they don’t. Hence the pension age rises and the riots.
    Fair point. Although I should have said "less of a deficit" instead of "enough"
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited September 2023
    Leon said:


    It's likely gonna end in a muddy, bloody armistice. The only question is how much territory Ukraine will be forced to yield to get that truce. To my pessimistic mind. There are more upbeat opinions to be had

    That might be so, especially if Trump is elected. But they are clearly going to fight even in very grinding fashion to eliminate as much of that territory as they can, and Western backing if sustained can achieve that. They clearly have much more will and ability for a slow, terrible fight than was possible 9 years ago.

    The Russians gave up the capital of one of the regions they ostensibly now regard as part of the Russian Federation, they'll pull back if forced to without it escalating beyond Ukraine's borders.

    The appeal to raw numbers would suggest no smaller nation has ever beaten a larger one, yet they have. So constantly pointing to Ukraine being smaller is not persuasive in itself.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    David Smith is good in the Times today.
    Wages, in real terms, are still lower than in 2008.
    Productivity remains well behind global peers.

    “Most of the debate about how to lift productivity, by boosting investment, the quality of the infrastructure, innovation and skills has taken place outside government, and outside parliament”.

    The spending growth forecasts for the NHS are shocking, even in the medium scenario, af over £250bn per annum by 2035 at a time when the tax burden is already at its highest level for 70 years.

    That simply isn’t sustainable. Starmer may have to go to China.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-8-things-politicians-should-be-taking-about-but-arent-ccj2jnjvq
    A lot of these problems are international. All advanced western nations suffer from some or all of them. The UK's is a toxic mix, but a different cocktail of toxicity can be found elsewhere

    The combo of an ageing society with the insane and temporary solution of mass immigration is peculiarly stupid, and you can find this in France, Germany, USA, Spain, Holland, Sweden, and more, along with all the ills that spring from it

    It is tempting to look at the list of problems and yield to blank despair. There's no fixing it. However there is one potential and significant reason for hope: AI. If it fulfils its promise it will make humans vastly more productive, and Britain's productiviy issues - as an example - will disppear overnight

    Let us pray to the God of the bots
    France is one of the few countries that doesn't have the problem in the same way

    In WW1, France fought like lions but the loss of life was large.
    Not enough men were left to father children
    As a result the Armee was quite small in the 30s to fight WW2
    So they fought badly and lost
    Having learned the demographic lesson post WW2 they gave families help to have babies and babies they had
    So that, combined with immigration, mean they have enough young people to look after the old


    France had the largest army in Europe at the start of the Second World War.
    "Largest" does not equal "enough"
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
  • Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
  • Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    Leon = Putin fanboi! :lol:
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:


    It's likely gonna end in a muddy, bloody armistice. The only question is how much territory Ukraine will be forced to yield to get that truce. To my pessimistic mind. There are more upbeat opinions to be had

    That might be so, especially if Trump is elected. But they are clearly going to fight even in very grinding fashion to eliminate as much of that territory as they can, and Western backing if sustained can achieve that. They clearly have much more will and ability for a slow, terrible fight than was possible 9 years ago.

    The Russians gave up the capital of one of the regions they ostensibly now regard as part of the Russian Federation, they'll pull back if forced to without it escalating beyond Ukraine's borders.

    The appeal to raw numbers would suggest no smaller nation has ever beaten a larger one, yet they have. So constantly pointing to Ukraine being smaller is not persuasive in itself.
    Yes Vietnam beat the USA. Afghanistan defeated the USSR

    At best Iraq was a score draw for the west

    But Ukraine is unlike any of these conflicts. Russia surrounds Ukraine on 2/3 sides (Inc Belarus), there are plenty of pro Russian people in Ukraine - esp Donbas and Crimea. Russian is widely spoken in Ukraine. And so on

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    kle4 said:

    If anyone was thinking of seeing The Equaliser 3 at the cinema, don't. The movie seems to be missing an entire third act, and just...ends.

    My son was raving about it. He doesn't often text me with a recommendation. Horses for courses I guess.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited September 2023
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Oh please, you know exactly what was meant by it and are clearly in one of your contrarian moods where you want to provoke people whilst taking a 'sympathetic statesman' tone instead your alternative 'shocking provocateur' mode. It never works becuase it's not genuine to your consistent persona.

    Anyone who genuinely thinks people supporting weapons for Ukraine as 'value' means they are uncaring about the deaths of thousands is a moron and I don't think that needs sugarcoating. No one buys you believe that because you're not stupid.

    It simply means that supporting a nation in an existential defence of its people and territory against unprovoked invasion by giving them, say, £1bn of weapons, is a very worthwhile spend of £1bn.

    Do you think it is not a worthwhile cause to spend money on? Because if you do, and you appear sympathetic to the Ukrainian cause, then why get all snowflakey about use of the word value? Why have an attack of vapours as if people are treating the death of others as nothing, when it is pretty obviously just noting £1bn of UK money will have tangible, positive results for a friendly nation?

    It's not even armchair generalling or being gung ho, I'm someone who thinks it will probably end in a horrible, grinding ceasefire and settlement.

    If you want to make these kind of points you need a consistent position about it, like Dura Ace - people like or don't like his stance, but it makes sense with his stated positions.
  • Yet another one:

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/horror-police-marksmen-shoot-dog-27644407

    Horror as police marksmen 'shoot dog dead' following attack on woman in Oldham
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    It is up to them, of course

    They certainly don't look like surrendering now, and who can blame them. But:are we being the best ally if we encourage them to fight to the last man? It is morally questionable

    And phrases that describe mass battlefield slaughter as "damn good value for money" are simply offensive. However this is not @kle4's usual style, so I will presume he didn't really think through how his words might come across
  • I don't need reminding of the facts every day from SunilBot.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075
    kle4 said:

    If anyone was thinking of seeing The Equaliser 3 at the cinema, don't. The movie seems to be missing an entire third act, and just...ends.

    I saw it and although I know what you mean, I quite liked it on exactly those grounds. I kept expecting that her fellow agent was a traitor and for the third act to be he takes her hostage and Denzel re-educates him with a nail gun, but that didn't happen. Instead he kills the bad guys and has a cup of tea. No muss, no fuss, 109 mins, in and out, I enjoyed it and I had natchos. Not like Oppenheimer, which is three centuries long and has a flaccid explosion.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,915
    edited September 2023

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    He's also intimating that the Ukes are definitely going to lose, so should cut their losses

    And he's talking up the hundred billion views of the Carson Orban interview that's basically Putin approved propaganda

    He'd been veering too close to the dark side for my liking since his return
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Oh please, you know exactly what was meant by it and are clearly in one of your contrarian moods where you want to provoke people whilst taking a 'sympathetic statesman' tone instead your alternative 'shocking provocateur' mode. It never works becuase it's not genuine to your consistent persona.

    Anyone who genuinely thinks people supporting weapons for Ukraine as 'value' means they are uncaring about the deaths of thousands is a moron and I don't think that needs sugarcoating. No one buys you believe that because you're not stupid.

    It simply means that supporting a nation in an existential defence of its people and territory against unprovoked invasion by giving them, say, £1bn of weapons, is a very worthwhile spend of £1bn.

    Do you think it is not a worthwhile cause to spend money on? Because if you do, and you appear sympathetic to the Ukrainian cause, then why get all snowflakey about use of the word value? Why have an attack of vapours as if people are treating the death of others as nothing, when it is pretty obviously just noting £1bn of UK money will have tangible, positive results for a friendly nation?

    It's not even armchair generalling or being gung ho, I'm someone who thinks it will probably end in a horrible, grinding ceasefire and settlement.
    It was a grotesque statement. I am fairly sure you meant well, but it was grotesque
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    edited September 2023

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    The suggestion is that an equitable settlement would be for Ukraine to give Russia several hundred thousand square km of land and a few million people - who will then be systematically raped, tortured and pillaged by the occupiers.

    It’s not an equitable settlement. An equitable settlement is withdrawal at least to the 2014 boundaries, and rock solid security guarantees so this menace of an evil empire can never threaten another of its neighbours. And if we were actually supplying meaningful weapons rather than leftovers from the shed they could do it more quickly and with less bloodshed.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    viewcode said:

    kle4 said:

    If anyone was thinking of seeing The Equaliser 3 at the cinema, don't. The movie seems to be missing an entire third act, and just...ends.

    I saw it and although I know what you mean, I quite liked it on exactly those grounds. I kept expecting that her fellow agent was a traitor and for the third act to be he takes her hostage and Denzel re-educates him with a nail gun, but that didn't happen. Instead he kills the bad guys and has a cup of tea. No muss, no fuss, 109 mins, in and out, I enjoyed it and I had natchos. Not like Oppenheimer, which is three centuries long and has a flaccid explosion.
    The issue is one of set up and payoff. It kind of makes sense for a smart person to not wait for the bad guy to come at them, but just take care of business in 3 minutes while the villain sleeps, but it's not very narratively satisfying to set up a climax and then have it not happen.
  • Now Sunil is posting the same post on my wall. He is a bot or a troll and not a very good one.
  • Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Because you are an apologist for Putin and in the 1930s/1940s would have been a blackshirt.

    The UK lost more than a million lives across the two world wars, but I don't know anyone in the UK who regrets the UK standing up to Hitler, and I don't know any Ukrainians who oppose standing up to a comparable evil in Putin.

    And step away from your Putinist bubble and Ukraine are making solid progress on the front. They're expanding the breach around Robotyne and preparing the ground for moving towards Tokmak which will sever Russia's land bridge and ability to reinforce its troops in the west.

    Which is why its no wonder that Russia's apologists are panicking and spouting this end the war gibberish. If you want the war over, then get Russian troops back into Russia, and the war ends.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    edited September 2023

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    He's also intimating that the Ukes are definitely going to lose, so should cut their losses

    And he's talking up the hundred billion views of the Carson Orban interview that's basically Putin approved propaganda

    He'd been veering too close to the dark side for my liking since his return
    Since Elon bought Twitter there’s been a huge increase in pro-Russian accounts posting. Stats published yesterday. And yes it’s working a treat.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    He's also intimating that the Ukes are definitely going to lose, so should cut their losses

    And he's talking up the hundred billion views of the Carson Orban interview that's basically Putin approved propaganda

    He'd been veering too close to the dark side for my liking since his return
    This is where PB loses its mind. I am pointing out that Ukraine has significant problems on its eastern front - coz their resources are stretched - and I did that citing a pro-Ukraine source! The Kyiv Independent

    Meanwhile I wondered if we are really seeing a breakthrough in the south. TBH the situation on the ground is hard to discern, and there are conflicting accounts, some of the more pessimistic appraisals come, again, from Ukrainians. The evidence I provided for this came from that well known Putnist apologiser-media, the BBC

    And becuause of this I am "veering to the dark side" like I have signed up for The Wagner Group

    Honestly, get a grip
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    I hope everyone is ready for the new and improved Leon, who is against intemperate, emotive expression about matters. It's a worrying example of western sentiment to use colourful and/or blunt language you see, these things require nuance, even though we're all just shooting the breeze online.

    The reasonable save their passionate outbursts for dogs, litter, and other matters of less concern.

    God bless him, never change.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    TERRIBLE miss. TUT
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    He's also intimating that the Ukes are definitely going to lose, so should cut their losses

    And he's talking up the hundred billion views of the Carson Orban interview that's basically Putin approved propaganda

    He'd been veering too close to the dark side for my liking since his return
    Since Elon bought Twitter there’s been a huge increase in pro-Russian accounts posting. Stats published yesterday. And yes it’s working a treat.
    US sentiment seems to have changed markedly, swifter than one would think from mere apathy as thing drag on. Of course, they take their cue from their political leaders - which is another reason I am very grateful this is not a partisan issue in this country.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Because you are an apologist for Putin and in the 1930s/1940s would have been a blackshirt.

    The UK lost more than a million lives across the two world wars, but I don't know anyone in the UK who regrets the UK standing up to Hitler, and I don't know any Ukrainians who oppose standing up to a comparable evil in Putin.

    And step away from your Putinist bubble and Ukraine are making solid progress on the front. They're expanding the breach around Robotyne and preparing the ground for moving towards Tokmak which will sever Russia's land bridge and ability to reinforce its troops in the west.

    Which is why its no wonder that Russia's apologists are panicking and spouting this end the war gibberish. If you want the war over, then get Russian troops back into Russia, and the war ends.
    Ra, Ra, Ra

    You tell em, Brigadier Behind-the-Sofa
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    edited September 2023
    This is the ensemble of upper air runs for London from this evening’s GFS, up to the 10th so far.


    This is completely unprecedented for September, and pretty unusual if it were July. It translates to temperatures of 30C+ on the ground for at least 3, probably 6 days in a row, and nocturnal minima in the high teens or above 20C. The hottest period in a summer that is already unusual as having June hotter than July or August.

    The European model ECMWF is almost identical. Hot weather until at least next weekend.

    The rest of the month is still uncertain but it’s not impossible we could end up with September being 2023’s warmest month.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    edited September 2023

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    If @Leon wanted to try and call himself a journalist, or perhaps have spent time recently in Ukraine, he’d be well aware of the desire of the Ukranians to fight for their existence as a nation, and the notion of those who wish for ‘peace’ to see peace exclusively on Russia’s terms, with the Ukranians forfeiting land against their will.
  • x
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    He's also intimating that the Ukes are definitely going to lose, so should cut their losses

    And he's talking up the hundred billion views of the Carson Orban interview that's basically Putin approved propaganda

    He'd been veering too close to the dark side for my liking since his return
    This is where PB loses its mind. I am pointing out that Ukraine has significant problems on its eastern front - coz their resources are stretched - and I did that citing a pro-Ukraine source! The Kyiv Independent

    Meanwhile I wondered if we are really seeing a breakthrough in the south. TBH the situation on the ground is hard to discern, and there are conflicting accounts, some of the more pessimistic appraisals come, again, from Ukrainians. The evidence I provided for this came from that well known Putnist apologiser-media, the BBC

    And becuause of this I am "veering to the dark side" like I have signed up for The Wagner Group

    Honestly, get a grip
    The piece you linked to earlier was highlighting issues for the Ukrainians away from where their counter-assault is concentrated - where all the best men and kit currently are

    You made it sound like that’s the situation everywhere; I hope you did that ignorantly

    You’re also caught up in a weird sensationalism of twitX views of a video of an interview that is offensively wrong from its first sentence
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Ukraine has three basic choices, I think. It can (1) try to settle as best it can with Russia; (2) try to hold the current line of control - defensive position; (3) try to take back territory from Russia - attack position.

    (1) Would be carte blanche for Russia to take more and more of Ukraine. It hasn't respected a single agreement it has make with Ukraine and it is anyway committed to taking more territory.

    (2) Might result in Ukraine losing soldiers slower than (3) and also using equipment more slowly, but Ukraine still needs to keep fighting and see its men being killed at a slightly slower rate. The problem of (1) still applies. Russia won't be satisfied with the current LoC.

    (3) Sees the highest casualty rates but it does potentially create facts on the ground, or at least avoid facts on the ground that are detrimental to Ukraine,and may eventually force Russia to a settlement.

    My question to @Leon and @CorrectHorseBat is why would (1) or (2) be better than (3) for Ukraine, and why wouldn't we as outsiders support Ukraine if they choose (3) ?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Blimey, I had no idea Wallace had been finished off so finally.

  • ...
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    He's also intimating that the Ukes are definitely going to lose, so should cut their losses

    And he's talking up the hundred billion views of the Carson Orban interview that's basically Putin approved propaganda

    He'd been veering too close to the dark side for my liking since his return
    Since Elon bought Twitter there’s been a huge increase in pro-Russian accounts posting. Stats published yesterday. And yes it’s working a treat.
    I'm not sure how convincing you think anyone should find your avowed disapproval of propaganda given your thoughts that Russia will 'systemically rape' its way through any territories it will gain in any putative peace settlement. Why would they do this exactly?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    In fairness, the plot summary does seem more exciting than The Equaliser 3

    ...The Witness, Russia’s first feature-length film about its invasion of Ukraine that premiered across the country on 17 August...

    But The Witness is a box-office flop. Set to a budget of 200 million roubles (£1.5m), it has grossed less than 14 million roubles (£110,000) in its first two weeks, with viewers across the country reporting empty cinema halls.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/02/kremlins-propaganda-film-ukraine-war-plays-to-empty-cinemas
  • ...

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    He's also intimating that the Ukes are definitely going to lose, so should cut their losses

    And he's talking up the hundred billion views of the Carson Orban interview that's basically Putin approved propaganda

    He'd been veering too close to the dark side for my liking since his return
    Since Elon bought Twitter there’s been a huge increase in pro-Russian accounts posting. Stats published yesterday. And yes it’s working a treat.
    I'm not sure how convincing you think anyone should find your avowed disapproval of propaganda given your thoughts that Russia will 'systemically rape' its way through any territories it will gain in any putative peace settlement. Why would they do this exactly?
    How many women in occupied Ukraine do you think haven't been raped by the orcs?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075
    kle4 said:

    viewcode said:

    kle4 said:

    If anyone was thinking of seeing The Equaliser 3 at the cinema, don't. The movie seems to be missing an entire third act, and just...ends.

    I saw it and although I know what you mean, I quite liked it on exactly those grounds. I kept expecting that her fellow agent was a traitor and for the third act to be he takes her hostage and Denzel re-educates him with a nail gun, but that didn't happen. Instead he kills the bad guys and has a cup of tea. No muss, no fuss, 109 mins, in and out, I enjoyed it and I had natchos. Not like Oppenheimer, which is three centuries long and has a flaccid explosion.
    The issue is one of set up and payoff. It kind of makes sense for a smart person to not wait for the bad guy to come at them, but just take care of business in 3 minutes while the villain sleeps, but it's not very narratively satisfying to set up a climax and then have it not happen.
    Well yes, but I think the climax was not expected and everted big showdown, it was the nice quiet ending as he achieves what he set out to do and settles down. Caps off the film and trilogy nicely. Job done.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Wasn't Sir Keir supposed to have tried removing responsibilities from Rayner last time, and she ended up being given more stuff? But this is trailed as though he wants to neuter his deputy a bit.

    Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer is expected to reshuffle his shadow cabinet on Monday.

    The long-awaited change of Labour's top team coincides with MPs returning to Westminster from their summer break.

    There is much speculation over what role Sir Keir may give his deputy leader Angela Rayner.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66702016
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    x

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    He's also intimating that the Ukes are definitely going to lose, so should cut their losses

    And he's talking up the hundred billion views of the Carson Orban interview that's basically Putin approved propaganda

    He'd been veering too close to the dark side for my liking since his return
    This is where PB loses its mind. I am pointing out that Ukraine has significant problems on its eastern front - coz their resources are stretched - and I did that citing a pro-Ukraine source! The Kyiv Independent

    Meanwhile I wondered if we are really seeing a breakthrough in the south. TBH the situation on the ground is hard to discern, and there are conflicting accounts, some of the more pessimistic appraisals come, again, from Ukrainians. The evidence I provided for this came from that well known Putnist apologiser-media, the BBC

    And becuause of this I am "veering to the dark side" like I have signed up for The Wagner Group

    Honestly, get a grip
    The piece you linked to earlier was highlighting issues for the Ukrainians away from where their counter-assault is concentrated - where all the best men and kit currently are

    You made it sound like that’s the situation everywhere; I hope you did that ignorantly

    You’re also caught up in a weird sensationalism of twitX views of a video of an interview that is offensively wrong from its first sentence
    OK try this then. This is also from the Kyiv Independent. A pro-Ukraine source in Ukraine. Funded by Canada, praised by the UK and EU, and so on

    It's a report from the southern front. And it is way more negative than anything we generally read in the West

    Sample paragraphs:



    "Eighteen months into the full-scale war however, the formation, with units fighting on all three axes of the counteroffensive, is now beginning to pay a high price for its makeup of volunteers, rather than mobilized soldiers.

    “It's hard to go forward, we don't have new weapons and equipment, and these days our personnel aren't being replaced,” said Ilnytskyi."


    "Since Ukrainian forces first regained the initiative around Bakhmut in May, Ground Forces Commander Oleksandr Syrskyi has repeatedly claimed that the occupied city was in the process of being “encircled.” On the ground, that still looks like a distant dream.

    “Everyone has their own job, their own mission,” said Lavryniuk dryly. “If they (Syrskyi) say things like that then maybe they know something we don't"

    "Whatever gains the southern counteroffensive makes before culmination, both sides look set for a gruelling struggle that could last for years more.

    Eighteen months in, concern is mounting among soldiers, from commanders to the rank and file, that for much of the country’s civilian population, the war is increasingly fading into the distance, even as the fighting shows no signs of dying down."

    Tell me, why are the UKRAINIANS being so negative? Perhaps they, like me, have "veered to the dark side"

    https://kyivindependent.com/inching-forward-in-bakhmut-counteroffensive-ukraines-hardened-units-look-ahead-to-long-grim-war/
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    Leon said:

    x

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    He's also intimating that the Ukes are definitely going to lose, so should cut their losses

    And he's talking up the hundred billion views of the Carson Orban interview that's basically Putin approved propaganda

    He'd been veering too close to the dark side for my liking since his return
    This is where PB loses its mind. I am pointing out that Ukraine has significant problems on its eastern front - coz their resources are stretched - and I did that citing a pro-Ukraine source! The Kyiv Independent

    Meanwhile I wondered if we are really seeing a breakthrough in the south. TBH the situation on the ground is hard to discern, and there are conflicting accounts, some of the more pessimistic appraisals come, again, from Ukrainians. The evidence I provided for this came from that well known Putnist apologiser-media, the BBC

    And becuause of this I am "veering to the dark side" like I have signed up for The Wagner Group

    Honestly, get a grip
    The piece you linked to earlier was highlighting issues for the Ukrainians away from where their counter-assault is concentrated - where all the best men and kit currently are

    You made it sound like that’s the situation everywhere; I hope you did that ignorantly

    You’re also caught up in a weird sensationalism of twitX views of a video of an interview that is offensively wrong from its first sentence
    OK try this then. This is also from the Kyiv Independent. A pro-Ukraine source in Ukraine. Funded by Canada, praised by the UK and EU, and so on

    It's a report from the southern front. And it is way more negative than anything we generally read in the West

    Sample paragraphs:



    "Eighteen months into the full-scale war however, the formation, with units fighting on all three axes of the counteroffensive, is now beginning to pay a high price for its makeup of volunteers, rather than mobilized soldiers.

    “It's hard to go forward, we don't have new weapons and equipment, and these days our personnel aren't being replaced,” said Ilnytskyi."


    "Since Ukrainian forces first regained the initiative around Bakhmut in May, Ground Forces Commander Oleksandr Syrskyi has repeatedly claimed that the occupied city was in the process of being “encircled.” On the ground, that still looks like a distant dream.

    “Everyone has their own job, their own mission,” said Lavryniuk dryly. “If they (Syrskyi) say things like that then maybe they know something we don't"

    "Whatever gains the southern counteroffensive makes before culmination, both sides look set for a gruelling struggle that could last for years more.

    Eighteen months in, concern is mounting among soldiers, from commanders to the rank and file, that for much of the country’s civilian population, the war is increasingly fading into the distance, even as the fighting shows no signs of dying down."

    Tell me, why are the UKRAINIANS being so negative? Perhaps they, like me, have "veered to the dark side"

    https://kyivindependent.com/inching-forward-in-bakhmut-counteroffensive-ukraines-hardened-units-look-ahead-to-long-grim-war/
    Man, if you think that's negative, you should try reading some Russian Telegraph channels.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Go on, PB, read this - from Ukrianian journalists embedded on the southern front for two weeks - then come back to me

    https://kyivindependent.com/inching-forward-in-bakhmut-counteroffensive-ukraines-hardened-units-look-ahead-to-long-grim-war/


    Here is the comment from the journalist himself, at the end

    "Hi, this is Francis Farrell, cheers for reading this article. It's been a while since I've done a field report from around Bakhmut, but this time was definitely different. For those of us who are dedicated to the victory of Ukraine, there is no point living with rose-tinted goggles on, this is what it will look like for a long time. As long as it goes on, we will be here, reporting on it as it is"
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Excellent match
  • Erik Seven Hag is such a fraud.
  • Leon isn't a Putin apologist, fash sympathiser or anything else.

    He's just a luvvie and a professional bedwetter.

    He'd have been taken to the rear in a strait jacket, had he been in the trenches during WW1. And during WW2 he'd have no doubt been hanging onto the coattails of Halifax urging us to make peace in June 1940.
  • Leon said:

    x

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    He's also intimating that the Ukes are definitely going to lose, so should cut their losses

    And he's talking up the hundred billion views of the Carson Orban interview that's basically Putin approved propaganda

    He'd been veering too close to the dark side for my liking since his return
    This is where PB loses its mind. I am pointing out that Ukraine has significant problems on its eastern front - coz their resources are stretched - and I did that citing a pro-Ukraine source! The Kyiv Independent

    Meanwhile I wondered if we are really seeing a breakthrough in the south. TBH the situation on the ground is hard to discern, and there are conflicting accounts, some of the more pessimistic appraisals come, again, from Ukrainians. The evidence I provided for this came from that well known Putnist apologiser-media, the BBC

    And becuause of this I am "veering to the dark side" like I have signed up for The Wagner Group

    Honestly, get a grip
    The piece you linked to earlier was highlighting issues for the Ukrainians away from where their counter-assault is concentrated - where all the best men and kit currently are

    You made it sound like that’s the situation everywhere; I hope you did that ignorantly

    You’re also caught up in a weird sensationalism of twitX views of a video of an interview that is offensively wrong from its first sentence
    OK try this then. This is also from the Kyiv Independent. A pro-Ukraine source in Ukraine. Funded by Canada, praised by the UK and EU, and so on

    It's a report from the southern front. And it is way more negative than anything we generally read in the West

    Sample paragraphs:



    "Eighteen months into the full-scale war however, the formation, with units fighting on all three axes of the counteroffensive, is now beginning to pay a high price for its makeup of volunteers, rather than mobilized soldiers.

    “It's hard to go forward, we don't have new weapons and equipment, and these days our personnel aren't being replaced,” said Ilnytskyi."


    "Since Ukrainian forces first regained the initiative around Bakhmut in May, Ground Forces Commander Oleksandr Syrskyi has repeatedly claimed that the occupied city was in the process of being “encircled.” On the ground, that still looks like a distant dream.

    “Everyone has their own job, their own mission,” said Lavryniuk dryly. “If they (Syrskyi) say things like that then maybe they know something we don't"

    "Whatever gains the southern counteroffensive makes before culmination, both sides look set for a gruelling struggle that could last for years more.

    Eighteen months in, concern is mounting among soldiers, from commanders to the rank and file, that for much of the country’s civilian population, the war is increasingly fading into the distance, even as the fighting shows no signs of dying down."

    Tell me, why are the UKRAINIANS being so negative? Perhaps they, like me, have "veered to the dark side"

    https://kyivindependent.com/inching-forward-in-bakhmut-counteroffensive-ukraines-hardened-units-look-ahead-to-long-grim-war/
    Warning! Putin fanboi alert! Warning! Putin fanboi alert!
  • Leon said:

    x

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    He's also intimating that the Ukes are definitely going to lose, so should cut their losses

    And he's talking up the hundred billion views of the Carson Orban interview that's basically Putin approved propaganda

    He'd been veering too close to the dark side for my liking since his return
    This is where PB loses its mind. I am pointing out that Ukraine has significant problems on its eastern front - coz their resources are stretched - and I did that citing a pro-Ukraine source! The Kyiv Independent

    Meanwhile I wondered if we are really seeing a breakthrough in the south. TBH the situation on the ground is hard to discern, and there are conflicting accounts, some of the more pessimistic appraisals come, again, from Ukrainians. The evidence I provided for this came from that well known Putnist apologiser-media, the BBC

    And becuause of this I am "veering to the dark side" like I have signed up for The Wagner Group

    Honestly, get a grip
    The piece you linked to earlier was highlighting issues for the Ukrainians away from where their counter-assault is concentrated - where all the best men and kit currently are

    You made it sound like that’s the situation everywhere; I hope you did that ignorantly

    You’re also caught up in a weird sensationalism of twitX views of a video of an interview that is offensively wrong from its first sentence
    OK try this then. This is also from the Kyiv Independent. A pro-Ukraine source in Ukraine. Funded by Canada, praised by the UK and EU, and so on

    It's a report from the southern front. And it is way more negative than anything we generally read in the West

    Sample paragraphs:



    "Eighteen months into the full-scale war however, the formation, with units fighting on all three axes of the counteroffensive, is now beginning to pay a high price for its makeup of volunteers, rather than mobilized soldiers.

    “It's hard to go forward, we don't have new weapons and equipment, and these days our personnel aren't being replaced,” said Ilnytskyi."


    "Since Ukrainian forces first regained the initiative around Bakhmut in May, Ground Forces Commander Oleksandr Syrskyi has repeatedly claimed that the occupied city was in the process of being “encircled.” On the ground, that still looks like a distant dream.

    “Everyone has their own job, their own mission,” said Lavryniuk dryly. “If they (Syrskyi) say things like that then maybe they know something we don't"

    "Whatever gains the southern counteroffensive makes before culmination, both sides look set for a gruelling struggle that could last for years more.

    Eighteen months in, concern is mounting among soldiers, from commanders to the rank and file, that for much of the country’s civilian population, the war is increasingly fading into the distance, even as the fighting shows no signs of dying down."

    Tell me, why are the UKRAINIANS being so negative? Perhaps they, like me, have "veered to the dark side"

    https://kyivindependent.com/inching-forward-in-bakhmut-counteroffensive-ukraines-hardened-units-look-ahead-to-long-grim-war/
    At least I implied you were somewhere toward the good side before your recent veering; many here wouldn't agree!

    You waffle on about Tucker Carlson's TwiXing, and then imply that Ukraine needs to surrender to save lives

    You'd do the same if he'd paid you to post here

    You've always been one of my favourite posters here, and I find your recent shift to Putidiocy rather depressing
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    x

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    He's also intimating that the Ukes are definitely going to lose, so should cut their losses

    And he's talking up the hundred billion views of the Carson Orban interview that's basically Putin approved propaganda

    He'd been veering too close to the dark side for my liking since his return
    This is where PB loses its mind. I am pointing out that Ukraine has significant problems on its eastern front - coz their resources are stretched - and I did that citing a pro-Ukraine source! The Kyiv Independent

    Meanwhile I wondered if we are really seeing a breakthrough in the south. TBH the situation on the ground is hard to discern, and there are conflicting accounts, some of the more pessimistic appraisals come, again, from Ukrainians. The evidence I provided for this came from that well known Putnist apologiser-media, the BBC

    And becuause of this I am "veering to the dark side" like I have signed up for The Wagner Group

    Honestly, get a grip
    The piece you linked to earlier was highlighting issues for the Ukrainians away from where their counter-assault is concentrated - where all the best men and kit currently are

    You made it sound like that’s the situation everywhere; I hope you did that ignorantly

    You’re also caught up in a weird sensationalism of twitX views of a video of an interview that is offensively wrong from its first sentence
    OK try this then. This is also from the Kyiv Independent. A pro-Ukraine source in Ukraine. Funded by Canada, praised by the UK and EU, and so on

    It's a report from the southern front. And it is way more negative than anything we generally read in the West

    Sample paragraphs:



    "Eighteen months into the full-scale war however, the formation, with units fighting on all three axes of the counteroffensive, is now beginning to pay a high price for its makeup of volunteers, rather than mobilized soldiers.

    “It's hard to go forward, we don't have new weapons and equipment, and these days our personnel aren't being replaced,” said Ilnytskyi."


    "Since Ukrainian forces first regained the initiative around Bakhmut in May, Ground Forces Commander Oleksandr Syrskyi has repeatedly claimed that the occupied city was in the process of being “encircled.” On the ground, that still looks like a distant dream.

    “Everyone has their own job, their own mission,” said Lavryniuk dryly. “If they (Syrskyi) say things like that then maybe they know something we don't"

    "Whatever gains the southern counteroffensive makes before culmination, both sides look set for a gruelling struggle that could last for years more.

    Eighteen months in, concern is mounting among soldiers, from commanders to the rank and file, that for much of the country’s civilian population, the war is increasingly fading into the distance, even as the fighting shows no signs of dying down."

    Tell me, why are the UKRAINIANS being so negative? Perhaps they, like me, have "veered to the dark side"

    https://kyivindependent.com/inching-forward-in-bakhmut-counteroffensive-ukraines-hardened-units-look-ahead-to-long-grim-war/
    Man, if you think that's negative, you should try reading some Russian Telegraph channels.

    The journalist himself says this:

    "Hi, this is Francis Farrell, cheers for reading this article. It's been a while since I've done a field report from around Bakhmut, but this time was definitely different. For those of us who are dedicated to the victory of Ukraine, there is no point living with rose-tinted goggles on, this is what it will look like for a long time. As long as it goes on, we will be here, reporting on it as it is"

    I'm hazarding a guess he knows more than you, even though he has more motivation to be positive than you
  • .
    Leon said:

    x

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    He's also intimating that the Ukes are definitely going to lose, so should cut their losses

    And he's talking up the hundred billion views of the Carson Orban interview that's basically Putin approved propaganda

    He'd been veering too close to the dark side for my liking since his return
    This is where PB loses its mind. I am pointing out that Ukraine has significant problems on its eastern front - coz their resources are stretched - and I did that citing a pro-Ukraine source! The Kyiv Independent

    Meanwhile I wondered if we are really seeing a breakthrough in the south. TBH the situation on the ground is hard to discern, and there are conflicting accounts, some of the more pessimistic appraisals come, again, from Ukrainians. The evidence I provided for this came from that well known Putnist apologiser-media, the BBC

    And becuause of this I am "veering to the dark side" like I have signed up for The Wagner Group

    Honestly, get a grip
    The piece you linked to earlier was highlighting issues for the Ukrainians away from where their counter-assault is concentrated - where all the best men and kit currently are

    You made it sound like that’s the situation everywhere; I hope you did that ignorantly

    You’re also caught up in a weird sensationalism of twitX views of a video of an interview that is offensively wrong from its first sentence
    OK try this then. This is also from the Kyiv Independent. A pro-Ukraine source in Ukraine. Funded by Canada, praised by the UK and EU, and so on

    It's a report from the southern front. And it is way more negative than anything we generally read in the West

    Sample paragraphs:



    "Eighteen months into the full-scale war however, the formation, with units fighting on all three axes of the counteroffensive, is now beginning to pay a high price for its makeup of volunteers, rather than mobilized soldiers.

    “It's hard to go forward, we don't have new weapons and equipment, and these days our personnel aren't being replaced,” said Ilnytskyi."


    "Since Ukrainian forces first regained the initiative around Bakhmut in May, Ground Forces Commander Oleksandr Syrskyi has repeatedly claimed that the occupied city was in the process of being “encircled.” On the ground, that still looks like a distant dream.

    “Everyone has their own job, their own mission,” said Lavryniuk dryly. “If they (Syrskyi) say things like that then maybe they know something we don't"

    "Whatever gains the southern counteroffensive makes before culmination, both sides look set for a gruelling struggle that could last for years more.

    Eighteen months in, concern is mounting among soldiers, from commanders to the rank and file, that for much of the country’s civilian population, the war is increasingly fading into the distance, even as the fighting shows no signs of dying down."

    Tell me, why are the UKRAINIANS being so negative? Perhaps they, like me, have "veered to the dark side"

    https://kyivindependent.com/inching-forward-in-bakhmut-counteroffensive-ukraines-hardened-units-look-ahead-to-long-grim-war/
    War is hell.

    The issue is not that the Ukrainians are pointing out problems, that is a given.

    The issue is your 2 + 2 = 5 logic.

    The Ukrainians don't want to surrender. They want more ammunition, more supplies, more assistance, not less.

    You take the fact there are issues and then extrapolate that to saying that Ukraine is losing the war, which is not true.

    Heck as the report you quoted says, the war could last years more. The Ukrainians aren't gearing up for surrender, they're up for the fight, and they're prepared to fight for years if that is what it takes - and we can and should support them for as long as they're willing and able to fight.
  • Leon isn't a Putin apologist, fash sympathiser or anything else.

    He's just a luvvie and a professional bedwetter.

    He'd have been taken to the rear in a strait jacket, had he been in the trenches during WW1. And during WW2 he'd have no doubt been hanging onto the coattails of Halifax urging us to make peace in June 1940.

    Had Germany have invaded you know Leon would have been a collaborator.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited September 2023

    Leon isn't a Putin apologist, fash sympathiser or anything else.

    He's just a luvvie and a professional bedwetter.

    He'd have been taken to the rear in a strait jacket, had he been in the trenches during WW1. And during WW2 he'd have no doubt been hanging onto the coattails of Halifax urging us to make peace in June 1940.

    He's also leaning on the Dura thing of pretending if anyone doesn't agree with the most gloomy analysis possible then they simply must swallow every bit of optimistic Ukrainian propaganda whole. No middle ground baby, it's not like plenty of people are pessimistic in the short to medium term at the least. Funny, as he made some good points about nuance yesterday.
  • Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    x

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    He's also intimating that the Ukes are definitely going to lose, so should cut their losses

    And he's talking up the hundred billion views of the Carson Orban interview that's basically Putin approved propaganda

    He'd been veering too close to the dark side for my liking since his return
    This is where PB loses its mind. I am pointing out that Ukraine has significant problems on its eastern front - coz their resources are stretched - and I did that citing a pro-Ukraine source! The Kyiv Independent

    Meanwhile I wondered if we are really seeing a breakthrough in the south. TBH the situation on the ground is hard to discern, and there are conflicting accounts, some of the more pessimistic appraisals come, again, from Ukrainians. The evidence I provided for this came from that well known Putnist apologiser-media, the BBC

    And becuause of this I am "veering to the dark side" like I have signed up for The Wagner Group

    Honestly, get a grip
    The piece you linked to earlier was highlighting issues for the Ukrainians away from where their counter-assault is concentrated - where all the best men and kit currently are

    You made it sound like that’s the situation everywhere; I hope you did that ignorantly

    You’re also caught up in a weird sensationalism of twitX views of a video of an interview that is offensively wrong from its first sentence
    OK try this then. This is also from the Kyiv Independent. A pro-Ukraine source in Ukraine. Funded by Canada, praised by the UK and EU, and so on

    It's a report from the southern front. And it is way more negative than anything we generally read in the West

    Sample paragraphs:



    "Eighteen months into the full-scale war however, the formation, with units fighting on all three axes of the counteroffensive, is now beginning to pay a high price for its makeup of volunteers, rather than mobilized soldiers.

    “It's hard to go forward, we don't have new weapons and equipment, and these days our personnel aren't being replaced,” said Ilnytskyi."


    "Since Ukrainian forces first regained the initiative around Bakhmut in May, Ground Forces Commander Oleksandr Syrskyi has repeatedly claimed that the occupied city was in the process of being “encircled.” On the ground, that still looks like a distant dream.

    “Everyone has their own job, their own mission,” said Lavryniuk dryly. “If they (Syrskyi) say things like that then maybe they know something we don't"

    "Whatever gains the southern counteroffensive makes before culmination, both sides look set for a gruelling struggle that could last for years more.

    Eighteen months in, concern is mounting among soldiers, from commanders to the rank and file, that for much of the country’s civilian population, the war is increasingly fading into the distance, even as the fighting shows no signs of dying down."

    Tell me, why are the UKRAINIANS being so negative? Perhaps they, like me, have "veered to the dark side"

    https://kyivindependent.com/inching-forward-in-bakhmut-counteroffensive-ukraines-hardened-units-look-ahead-to-long-grim-war/
    Man, if you think that's negative, you should try reading some Russian Telegraph channels.

    The journalist himself says this:

    "Hi, this is Francis Farrell, cheers for reading this article. It's been a while since I've done a field report from around Bakhmut, but this time was definitely different. For those of us who are dedicated to the victory of Ukraine, there is no point living with rose-tinted goggles on, this is what it will look like for a long time. As long as it goes on, we will be here, reporting on it as it is"

    I'm hazarding a guess he knows more than you, even though he has more motivation to be positive than you
    Is there any chance that this is a supporting document for the application for more weapons?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    How much has russia payed you?
  • Leon said:

    x

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    He's also intimating that the Ukes are definitely going to lose, so should cut their losses

    And he's talking up the hundred billion views of the Carson Orban interview that's basically Putin approved propaganda

    He'd been veering too close to the dark side for my liking since his return
    This is where PB loses its mind. I am pointing out that Ukraine has significant problems on its eastern front - coz their resources are stretched - and I did that citing a pro-Ukraine source! The Kyiv Independent

    Meanwhile I wondered if we are really seeing a breakthrough in the south. TBH the situation on the ground is hard to discern, and there are conflicting accounts, some of the more pessimistic appraisals come, again, from Ukrainians. The evidence I provided for this came from that well known Putnist apologiser-media, the BBC

    And becuause of this I am "veering to the dark side" like I have signed up for The Wagner Group

    Honestly, get a grip
    The piece you linked to earlier was highlighting issues for the Ukrainians away from where their counter-assault is concentrated - where all the best men and kit currently are

    You made it sound like that’s the situation everywhere; I hope you did that ignorantly

    You’re also caught up in a weird sensationalism of twitX views of a video of an interview that is offensively wrong from its first sentence
    OK try this then. This is also from the Kyiv Independent. A pro-Ukraine source in Ukraine. Funded by Canada, praised by the UK and EU, and so on

    It's a report from the southern front. And it is way more negative than anything we generally read in the West

    Sample paragraphs:



    "Eighteen months into the full-scale war however, the formation, with units fighting on all three axes of the counteroffensive, is now beginning to pay a high price for its makeup of volunteers, rather than mobilized soldiers.

    “It's hard to go forward, we don't have new weapons and equipment, and these days our personnel aren't being replaced,” said Ilnytskyi."


    "Since Ukrainian forces first regained the initiative around Bakhmut in May, Ground Forces Commander Oleksandr Syrskyi has repeatedly claimed that the occupied city was in the process of being “encircled.” On the ground, that still looks like a distant dream.

    “Everyone has their own job, their own mission,” said Lavryniuk dryly. “If they (Syrskyi) say things like that then maybe they know something we don't"

    "Whatever gains the southern counteroffensive makes before culmination, both sides look set for a gruelling struggle that could last for years more.

    Eighteen months in, concern is mounting among soldiers, from commanders to the rank and file, that for much of the country’s civilian population, the war is increasingly fading into the distance, even as the fighting shows no signs of dying down."

    Tell me, why are the UKRAINIANS being so negative? Perhaps they, like me, have "veered to the dark side"

    https://kyivindependent.com/inching-forward-in-bakhmut-counteroffensive-ukraines-hardened-units-look-ahead-to-long-grim-war/
    At least I implied you were somewhere toward the good side before your recent veering; many here wouldn't agree!

    You waffle on about Tucker Carlson's TwiXing, and then imply that Ukraine needs to surrender to save lives

    You'd do the same if he'd paid you to post here

    You've always been one of my favourite posters here, and I find your recent shift to Putidiocy rather depressing
    It's always depressing when someone who you think is on your side lets you down.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Leon isn't a Putin apologist, fash sympathiser or anything else.

    He's just a luvvie and a professional bedwetter.

    He'd have been taken to the rear in a strait jacket, had he been in the trenches during WW1. And during WW2 he'd have no doubt been hanging onto the coattails of Halifax urging us to make peace in June 1940.

    Had Germany have invaded you know Leon would have been a collaborator.
    So would I in fairness, far too cowardly to stand up to oppressors, me.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    x

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    He's also intimating that the Ukes are definitely going to lose, so should cut their losses

    And he's talking up the hundred billion views of the Carson Orban interview that's basically Putin approved propaganda

    He'd been veering too close to the dark side for my liking since his return
    This is where PB loses its mind. I am pointing out that Ukraine has significant problems on its eastern front - coz their resources are stretched - and I did that citing a pro-Ukraine source! The Kyiv Independent

    Meanwhile I wondered if we are really seeing a breakthrough in the south. TBH the situation on the ground is hard to discern, and there are conflicting accounts, some of the more pessimistic appraisals come, again, from Ukrainians. The evidence I provided for this came from that well known Putnist apologiser-media, the BBC

    And becuause of this I am "veering to the dark side" like I have signed up for The Wagner Group

    Honestly, get a grip
    The piece you linked to earlier was highlighting issues for the Ukrainians away from where their counter-assault is concentrated - where all the best men and kit currently are

    You made it sound like that’s the situation everywhere; I hope you did that ignorantly

    You’re also caught up in a weird sensationalism of twitX views of a video of an interview that is offensively wrong from its first sentence
    OK try this then. This is also from the Kyiv Independent. A pro-Ukraine source in Ukraine. Funded by Canada, praised by the UK and EU, and so on

    It's a report from the southern front. And it is way more negative than anything we generally read in the West

    Sample paragraphs:



    "Eighteen months into the full-scale war however, the formation, with units fighting on all three axes of the counteroffensive, is now beginning to pay a high price for its makeup of volunteers, rather than mobilized soldiers.

    “It's hard to go forward, we don't have new weapons and equipment, and these days our personnel aren't being replaced,” said Ilnytskyi."


    "Since Ukrainian forces first regained the initiative around Bakhmut in May, Ground Forces Commander Oleksandr Syrskyi has repeatedly claimed that the occupied city was in the process of being “encircled.” On the ground, that still looks like a distant dream.

    “Everyone has their own job, their own mission,” said Lavryniuk dryly. “If they (Syrskyi) say things like that then maybe they know something we don't"

    "Whatever gains the southern counteroffensive makes before culmination, both sides look set for a gruelling struggle that could last for years more.

    Eighteen months in, concern is mounting among soldiers, from commanders to the rank and file, that for much of the country’s civilian population, the war is increasingly fading into the distance, even as the fighting shows no signs of dying down."

    Tell me, why are the UKRAINIANS being so negative? Perhaps they, like me, have "veered to the dark side"

    https://kyivindependent.com/inching-forward-in-bakhmut-counteroffensive-ukraines-hardened-units-look-ahead-to-long-grim-war/
    Man, if you think that's negative, you should try reading some Russian Telegraph channels.

    The journalist himself says this:

    "Hi, this is Francis Farrell, cheers for reading this article. It's been a while since I've done a field report from around Bakhmut, but this time was definitely different. For those of us who are dedicated to the victory of Ukraine, there is no point living with rose-tinted goggles on, this is what it will look like for a long time. As long as it goes on, we will be here, reporting on it as it is"

    I'm hazarding a guess he knows more than you, even though he has more motivation to be positive than you
    I'm sure he does.

    But that doesn't take anything away from my comment: the Russians are also having a shit time.
  • .
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    x

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    He's also intimating that the Ukes are definitely going to lose, so should cut their losses

    And he's talking up the hundred billion views of the Carson Orban interview that's basically Putin approved propaganda

    He'd been veering too close to the dark side for my liking since his return
    This is where PB loses its mind. I am pointing out that Ukraine has significant problems on its eastern front - coz their resources are stretched - and I did that citing a pro-Ukraine source! The Kyiv Independent

    Meanwhile I wondered if we are really seeing a breakthrough in the south. TBH the situation on the ground is hard to discern, and there are conflicting accounts, some of the more pessimistic appraisals come, again, from Ukrainians. The evidence I provided for this came from that well known Putnist apologiser-media, the BBC

    And becuause of this I am "veering to the dark side" like I have signed up for The Wagner Group

    Honestly, get a grip
    The piece you linked to earlier was highlighting issues for the Ukrainians away from where their counter-assault is concentrated - where all the best men and kit currently are

    You made it sound like that’s the situation everywhere; I hope you did that ignorantly

    You’re also caught up in a weird sensationalism of twitX views of a video of an interview that is offensively wrong from its first sentence
    OK try this then. This is also from the Kyiv Independent. A pro-Ukraine source in Ukraine. Funded by Canada, praised by the UK and EU, and so on

    It's a report from the southern front. And it is way more negative than anything we generally read in the West

    Sample paragraphs:



    "Eighteen months into the full-scale war however, the formation, with units fighting on all three axes of the counteroffensive, is now beginning to pay a high price for its makeup of volunteers, rather than mobilized soldiers.

    “It's hard to go forward, we don't have new weapons and equipment, and these days our personnel aren't being replaced,” said Ilnytskyi."


    "Since Ukrainian forces first regained the initiative around Bakhmut in May, Ground Forces Commander Oleksandr Syrskyi has repeatedly claimed that the occupied city was in the process of being “encircled.” On the ground, that still looks like a distant dream.

    “Everyone has their own job, their own mission,” said Lavryniuk dryly. “If they (Syrskyi) say things like that then maybe they know something we don't"

    "Whatever gains the southern counteroffensive makes before culmination, both sides look set for a gruelling struggle that could last for years more.

    Eighteen months in, concern is mounting among soldiers, from commanders to the rank and file, that for much of the country’s civilian population, the war is increasingly fading into the distance, even as the fighting shows no signs of dying down."

    Tell me, why are the UKRAINIANS being so negative? Perhaps they, like me, have "veered to the dark side"

    https://kyivindependent.com/inching-forward-in-bakhmut-counteroffensive-ukraines-hardened-units-look-ahead-to-long-grim-war/
    Man, if you think that's negative, you should try reading some Russian Telegraph channels.

    The journalist himself says this:

    "Hi, this is Francis Farrell, cheers for reading this article. It's been a while since I've done a field report from around Bakhmut, but this time was definitely different. For those of us who are dedicated to the victory of Ukraine, there is no point living with rose-tinted goggles on, this is what it will look like for a long time. As long as it goes on, we will be here, reporting on it as it is"

    I'm hazarding a guess he knows more than you, even though he has more motivation to be positive than you
    Yes, what he's saying is honest reporting.

    It is not what you're saying.

    He's not saying that Ukraine are "running out of men" or that the "Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated" or that Ukraine is "slowly losing this war" that is your supposition and was not his conclusion.

    What he's saying is that fighting could last a long time, yes that can be what happens in warfare. Its brutal, and bloody, and its not a Hollywood action movie where some conquering hero comes in and clears all the enemy singlehandedly and rapidly.

    All the more reason for us to support Ukraine for the long term. The opposite of the conclusion you seem to be drawing.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    kle4 said:

    Leon isn't a Putin apologist, fash sympathiser or anything else.

    He's just a luvvie and a professional bedwetter.

    He'd have been taken to the rear in a strait jacket, had he been in the trenches during WW1. And during WW2 he'd have no doubt been hanging onto the coattails of Halifax urging us to make peace in June 1940.

    Had Germany have invaded you know Leon would have been a collaborator.
    So would I in fairness, far too cowardly to stand up to oppressors, me.
    Bah, I would have foreseen the successful German invasion and would have collaborated BEFORE the invasion, to secure the best outcome for me and my family.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    Well ......

    https://gb.bebee.com/job/20230901-de01d58d210a441dcc2be97237d38377

    The section on the Post office as "We're trusted. We're relatable. We're reliable." is vomit inducing. The multiple spelling mistakes and atrocious grammar don't help either. A whole paragraph on EDI but nothing about ethics and compliance with the law.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    .

    .

    Leon said:

    x

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    He's also intimating that the Ukes are definitely going to lose, so should cut their losses

    And he's talking up the hundred billion views of the Carson Orban interview that's basically Putin approved propaganda

    He'd been veering too close to the dark side for my liking since his return
    This is where PB loses its mind. I am pointing out that Ukraine has significant problems on its eastern front - coz their resources are stretched - and I did that citing a pro-Ukraine source! The Kyiv Independent

    Meanwhile I wondered if we are really seeing a breakthrough in the south. TBH the situation on the ground is hard to discern, and there are conflicting accounts, some of the more pessimistic appraisals come, again, from Ukrainians. The evidence I provided for this came from that well known Putnist apologiser-media, the BBC

    And becuause of this I am "veering to the dark side" like I have signed up for The Wagner Group

    Honestly, get a grip
    The piece you linked to earlier was highlighting issues for the Ukrainians away from where their counter-assault is concentrated - where all the best men and kit currently are

    You made it sound like that’s the situation everywhere; I hope you did that ignorantly

    You’re also caught up in a weird sensationalism of twitX views of a video of an interview that is offensively wrong from its first sentence
    OK try this then. This is also from the Kyiv Independent. A pro-Ukraine source in Ukraine. Funded by Canada, praised by the UK and EU, and so on

    It's a report from the southern front. And it is way more negative than anything we generally read in the West

    Sample paragraphs:



    "Eighteen months into the full-scale war however, the formation, with units fighting on all three axes of the counteroffensive, is now beginning to pay a high price for its makeup of volunteers, rather than mobilized soldiers.

    “It's hard to go forward, we don't have new weapons and equipment, and these days our personnel aren't being replaced,” said Ilnytskyi."


    "Since Ukrainian forces first regained the initiative around Bakhmut in May, Ground Forces Commander Oleksandr Syrskyi has repeatedly claimed that the occupied city was in the process of being “encircled.” On the ground, that still looks like a distant dream.

    “Everyone has their own job, their own mission,” said Lavryniuk dryly. “If they (Syrskyi) say things like that then maybe they know something we don't"

    "Whatever gains the southern counteroffensive makes before culmination, both sides look set for a gruelling struggle that could last for years more.

    Eighteen months in, concern is mounting among soldiers, from commanders to the rank and file, that for much of the country’s civilian population, the war is increasingly fading into the distance, even as the fighting shows no signs of dying down."

    Tell me, why are the UKRAINIANS being so negative? Perhaps they, like me, have "veered to the dark side"

    https://kyivindependent.com/inching-forward-in-bakhmut-counteroffensive-ukraines-hardened-units-look-ahead-to-long-grim-war/
    War is hell.

    The issue is not that the Ukrainians are pointing out problems, that is a given.

    The issue is your 2 + 2 = 5 logic.

    The Ukrainians don't want to surrender. They want more ammunition, more supplies, more assistance, not less.

    You take the fact there are issues and then extrapolate that to saying that Ukraine is losing the war, which is not true.

    Heck as the report you quoted says, the war could last years more. The Ukrainians aren't gearing up for surrender, they're up for the fight, and they're prepared to fight for years if that is what it takes - and we can and should support them for as long as they're willing and able to fight.
    The fastest way this war finishes, is for the western world to give the Ukranians every weapons system we have spare.

    Just because a bunch of right and left Americans want to see ‘peace’, doesn’t mean that the Ukranians don’t want as many weapons as they can get their hands on.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    x

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    He's also intimating that the Ukes are definitely going to lose, so should cut their losses

    And he's talking up the hundred billion views of the Carson Orban interview that's basically Putin approved propaganda

    He'd been veering too close to the dark side for my liking since his return
    This is where PB loses its mind. I am pointing out that Ukraine has significant problems on its eastern front - coz their resources are stretched - and I did that citing a pro-Ukraine source! The Kyiv Independent

    Meanwhile I wondered if we are really seeing a breakthrough in the south. TBH the situation on the ground is hard to discern, and there are conflicting accounts, some of the more pessimistic appraisals come, again, from Ukrainians. The evidence I provided for this came from that well known Putnist apologiser-media, the BBC

    And becuause of this I am "veering to the dark side" like I have signed up for The Wagner Group

    Honestly, get a grip
    The piece you linked to earlier was highlighting issues for the Ukrainians away from where their counter-assault is concentrated - where all the best men and kit currently are

    You made it sound like that’s the situation everywhere; I hope you did that ignorantly

    You’re also caught up in a weird sensationalism of twitX views of a video of an interview that is offensively wrong from its first sentence
    OK try this then. This is also from the Kyiv Independent. A pro-Ukraine source in Ukraine. Funded by Canada, praised by the UK and EU, and so on

    It's a report from the southern front. And it is way more negative than anything we generally read in the West

    Sample paragraphs:



    "Eighteen months into the full-scale war however, the formation, with units fighting on all three axes of the counteroffensive, is now beginning to pay a high price for its makeup of volunteers, rather than mobilized soldiers.

    “It's hard to go forward, we don't have new weapons and equipment, and these days our personnel aren't being replaced,” said Ilnytskyi."


    "Since Ukrainian forces first regained the initiative around Bakhmut in May, Ground Forces Commander Oleksandr Syrskyi has repeatedly claimed that the occupied city was in the process of being “encircled.” On the ground, that still looks like a distant dream.

    “Everyone has their own job, their own mission,” said Lavryniuk dryly. “If they (Syrskyi) say things like that then maybe they know something we don't"

    "Whatever gains the southern counteroffensive makes before culmination, both sides look set for a gruelling struggle that could last for years more.

    Eighteen months in, concern is mounting among soldiers, from commanders to the rank and file, that for much of the country’s civilian population, the war is increasingly fading into the distance, even as the fighting shows no signs of dying down."

    Tell me, why are the UKRAINIANS being so negative? Perhaps they, like me, have "veered to the dark side"

    https://kyivindependent.com/inching-forward-in-bakhmut-counteroffensive-ukraines-hardened-units-look-ahead-to-long-grim-war/
    Man, if you think that's negative, you should try reading some Russian Telegraph channels.

    The journalist himself says this:

    "Hi, this is Francis Farrell, cheers for reading this article. It's been a while since I've done a field report from around Bakhmut, but this time was definitely different. For those of us who are dedicated to the victory of Ukraine, there is no point living with rose-tinted goggles on, this is what it will look like for a long time. As long as it goes on, we will be here, reporting on it as it is"

    I'm hazarding a guess he knows more than you, even though he has more motivation to be positive than you
    Is there any chance that this is a supporting document for the application for more weapons?
    That possibility occurred to me, but this is really detailed lying, if that is what it is: a pack of lies designed to get more F-16s or whatever

    I don't believe it is. I think this is the truth - or one version of the battlefield truth as seen by one Canadian-Ukrainian (I think) journalist

    A perusal of the entire Kyiv Independen website is, in truth, a rather sobering exercise if you are eager for Ukraine to win, and win quick (so as to save lives on all sides)
  • Sandpit said:

    .

    .

    Leon said:

    x

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    He's also intimating that the Ukes are definitely going to lose, so should cut their losses

    And he's talking up the hundred billion views of the Carson Orban interview that's basically Putin approved propaganda

    He'd been veering too close to the dark side for my liking since his return
    This is where PB loses its mind. I am pointing out that Ukraine has significant problems on its eastern front - coz their resources are stretched - and I did that citing a pro-Ukraine source! The Kyiv Independent

    Meanwhile I wondered if we are really seeing a breakthrough in the south. TBH the situation on the ground is hard to discern, and there are conflicting accounts, some of the more pessimistic appraisals come, again, from Ukrainians. The evidence I provided for this came from that well known Putnist apologiser-media, the BBC

    And becuause of this I am "veering to the dark side" like I have signed up for The Wagner Group

    Honestly, get a grip
    The piece you linked to earlier was highlighting issues for the Ukrainians away from where their counter-assault is concentrated - where all the best men and kit currently are

    You made it sound like that’s the situation everywhere; I hope you did that ignorantly

    You’re also caught up in a weird sensationalism of twitX views of a video of an interview that is offensively wrong from its first sentence
    OK try this then. This is also from the Kyiv Independent. A pro-Ukraine source in Ukraine. Funded by Canada, praised by the UK and EU, and so on

    It's a report from the southern front. And it is way more negative than anything we generally read in the West

    Sample paragraphs:



    "Eighteen months into the full-scale war however, the formation, with units fighting on all three axes of the counteroffensive, is now beginning to pay a high price for its makeup of volunteers, rather than mobilized soldiers.

    “It's hard to go forward, we don't have new weapons and equipment, and these days our personnel aren't being replaced,” said Ilnytskyi."


    "Since Ukrainian forces first regained the initiative around Bakhmut in May, Ground Forces Commander Oleksandr Syrskyi has repeatedly claimed that the occupied city was in the process of being “encircled.” On the ground, that still looks like a distant dream.

    “Everyone has their own job, their own mission,” said Lavryniuk dryly. “If they (Syrskyi) say things like that then maybe they know something we don't"

    "Whatever gains the southern counteroffensive makes before culmination, both sides look set for a gruelling struggle that could last for years more.

    Eighteen months in, concern is mounting among soldiers, from commanders to the rank and file, that for much of the country’s civilian population, the war is increasingly fading into the distance, even as the fighting shows no signs of dying down."

    Tell me, why are the UKRAINIANS being so negative? Perhaps they, like me, have "veered to the dark side"

    https://kyivindependent.com/inching-forward-in-bakhmut-counteroffensive-ukraines-hardened-units-look-ahead-to-long-grim-war/
    War is hell.

    The issue is not that the Ukrainians are pointing out problems, that is a given.

    The issue is your 2 + 2 = 5 logic.

    The Ukrainians don't want to surrender. They want more ammunition, more supplies, more assistance, not less.

    You take the fact there are issues and then extrapolate that to saying that Ukraine is losing the war, which is not true.

    Heck as the report you quoted says, the war could last years more. The Ukrainians aren't gearing up for surrender, they're up for the fight, and they're prepared to fight for years if that is what it takes - and we can and should support them for as long as they're willing and able to fight.
    The fastest way this war finishes, is for the western world to give the Ukranians every weapons system we have spare.

    Just because a bunch of right and left Americans want to see ‘peace’, doesn’t mean that the Ukranians don’t want as many weapons as they can get their hands on.
    "Peace" is overrated.

    Security is what is needed.

    If that can be achieved peacefully, great.

    But if it can't, it needs to be achieved militarily.

    First secure victory, then there can be a lasting peace. Surrendering to dictators just causes them to come back for more, it does not secure peace.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    Interestingly Susan Hall has a positive net favourable rating in London unlike either Corbyn or Khan
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    Sandpit said:

    .

    .

    Leon said:

    x

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    He's also intimating that the Ukes are definitely going to lose, so should cut their losses

    And he's talking up the hundred billion views of the Carson Orban interview that's basically Putin approved propaganda

    He'd been veering too close to the dark side for my liking since his return
    This is where PB loses its mind. I am pointing out that Ukraine has significant problems on its eastern front - coz their resources are stretched - and I did that citing a pro-Ukraine source! The Kyiv Independent

    Meanwhile I wondered if we are really seeing a breakthrough in the south. TBH the situation on the ground is hard to discern, and there are conflicting accounts, some of the more pessimistic appraisals come, again, from Ukrainians. The evidence I provided for this came from that well known Putnist apologiser-media, the BBC

    And becuause of this I am "veering to the dark side" like I have signed up for The Wagner Group

    Honestly, get a grip
    The piece you linked to earlier was highlighting issues for the Ukrainians away from where their counter-assault is concentrated - where all the best men and kit currently are

    You made it sound like that’s the situation everywhere; I hope you did that ignorantly

    You’re also caught up in a weird sensationalism of twitX views of a video of an interview that is offensively wrong from its first sentence
    OK try this then. This is also from the Kyiv Independent. A pro-Ukraine source in Ukraine. Funded by Canada, praised by the UK and EU, and so on

    It's a report from the southern front. And it is way more negative than anything we generally read in the West

    Sample paragraphs:



    "Eighteen months into the full-scale war however, the formation, with units fighting on all three axes of the counteroffensive, is now beginning to pay a high price for its makeup of volunteers, rather than mobilized soldiers.

    “It's hard to go forward, we don't have new weapons and equipment, and these days our personnel aren't being replaced,” said Ilnytskyi."


    "Since Ukrainian forces first regained the initiative around Bakhmut in May, Ground Forces Commander Oleksandr Syrskyi has repeatedly claimed that the occupied city was in the process of being “encircled.” On the ground, that still looks like a distant dream.

    “Everyone has their own job, their own mission,” said Lavryniuk dryly. “If they (Syrskyi) say things like that then maybe they know something we don't"

    "Whatever gains the southern counteroffensive makes before culmination, both sides look set for a gruelling struggle that could last for years more.

    Eighteen months in, concern is mounting among soldiers, from commanders to the rank and file, that for much of the country’s civilian population, the war is increasingly fading into the distance, even as the fighting shows no signs of dying down."

    Tell me, why are the UKRAINIANS being so negative? Perhaps they, like me, have "veered to the dark side"

    https://kyivindependent.com/inching-forward-in-bakhmut-counteroffensive-ukraines-hardened-units-look-ahead-to-long-grim-war/
    War is hell.

    The issue is not that the Ukrainians are pointing out problems, that is a given.

    The issue is your 2 + 2 = 5 logic.

    The Ukrainians don't want to surrender. They want more ammunition, more supplies, more assistance, not less.

    You take the fact there are issues and then extrapolate that to saying that Ukraine is losing the war, which is not true.

    Heck as the report you quoted says, the war could last years more. The Ukrainians aren't gearing up for surrender, they're up for the fight, and they're prepared to fight for years if that is what it takes - and we can and should support them for as long as they're willing and able to fight.
    The fastest way this war finishes, is for the western world to give the Ukranians every weapons system we have spare.

    Just because a bunch of right and left Americans want to see ‘peace’, doesn’t mean that the Ukranians don’t want as many weapons as they can get their hands on.
    The fastest way this war ends is us telling putin give up all that land or we turn moscow into glass and drop nukes he would run away like a little girl because he knows most of his wont even get out the silo
  • Cyclefree said:

    Well ......

    https://gb.bebee.com/job/20230901-de01d58d210a441dcc2be97237d38377

    The section on the Post office as "We're trusted. We're relatable. We're reliable." is vomit inducing. The multiple spelling mistakes and atrocious grammar don't help either. A whole paragraph on EDI but nothing about ethics and compliance with the law.

    Jesus. That's terrible.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759

    Leon isn't a Putin apologist, fash sympathiser or anything else.

    He's just a luvvie and a professional bedwetter.

    He'd have been taken to the rear in a strait jacket, had he been in the trenches during WW1. And during WW2 he'd have no doubt been hanging onto the coattails of Halifax urging us to make peace in June 1940.

    Why are you all obsessed with discussing Leon? I struggle to think of a duller subject (the words about him rather than he himself)



  • Now, now, "Leon" is simply doing his job, as PB's Chief Morale Officer.

    Granted, in most organizations, the job of suchlike is boosting morale, NOT deflating it?

    Guess that means we're VERY special!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    .

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    x

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    He's also intimating that the Ukes are definitely going to lose, so should cut their losses

    And he's talking up the hundred billion views of the Carson Orban interview that's basically Putin approved propaganda

    He'd been veering too close to the dark side for my liking since his return
    This is where PB loses its mind. I am pointing out that Ukraine has significant problems on its eastern front - coz their resources are stretched - and I did that citing a pro-Ukraine source! The Kyiv Independent

    Meanwhile I wondered if we are really seeing a breakthrough in the south. TBH the situation on the ground is hard to discern, and there are conflicting accounts, some of the more pessimistic appraisals come, again, from Ukrainians. The evidence I provided for this came from that well known Putnist apologiser-media, the BBC

    And becuause of this I am "veering to the dark side" like I have signed up for The Wagner Group

    Honestly, get a grip
    The piece you linked to earlier was highlighting issues for the Ukrainians away from where their counter-assault is concentrated - where all the best men and kit currently are

    You made it sound like that’s the situation everywhere; I hope you did that ignorantly

    You’re also caught up in a weird sensationalism of twitX views of a video of an interview that is offensively wrong from its first sentence
    OK try this then. This is also from the Kyiv Independent. A pro-Ukraine source in Ukraine. Funded by Canada, praised by the UK and EU, and so on

    It's a report from the southern front. And it is way more negative than anything we generally read in the West

    Sample paragraphs:



    "Eighteen months into the full-scale war however, the formation, with units fighting on all three axes of the counteroffensive, is now beginning to pay a high price for its makeup of volunteers, rather than mobilized soldiers.

    “It's hard to go forward, we don't have new weapons and equipment, and these days our personnel aren't being replaced,” said Ilnytskyi."


    "Since Ukrainian forces first regained the initiative around Bakhmut in May, Ground Forces Commander Oleksandr Syrskyi has repeatedly claimed that the occupied city was in the process of being “encircled.” On the ground, that still looks like a distant dream.

    “Everyone has their own job, their own mission,” said Lavryniuk dryly. “If they (Syrskyi) say things like that then maybe they know something we don't"

    "Whatever gains the southern counteroffensive makes before culmination, both sides look set for a gruelling struggle that could last for years more.

    Eighteen months in, concern is mounting among soldiers, from commanders to the rank and file, that for much of the country’s civilian population, the war is increasingly fading into the distance, even as the fighting shows no signs of dying down."

    Tell me, why are the UKRAINIANS being so negative? Perhaps they, like me, have "veered to the dark side"

    https://kyivindependent.com/inching-forward-in-bakhmut-counteroffensive-ukraines-hardened-units-look-ahead-to-long-grim-war/
    Man, if you think that's negative, you should try reading some Russian Telegraph channels.

    The journalist himself says this:

    "Hi, this is Francis Farrell, cheers for reading this article. It's been a while since I've done a field report from around Bakhmut, but this time was definitely different. For those of us who are dedicated to the victory of Ukraine, there is no point living with rose-tinted goggles on, this is what it will look like for a long time. As long as it goes on, we will be here, reporting on it as it is"

    I'm hazarding a guess he knows more than you, even though he has more motivation to be positive than you
    Yes, what he's saying is honest reporting.

    It is not what you're saying.

    He's not saying that Ukraine are "running out of men" or that the "Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated" or that Ukraine is "slowly losing this war" that is your supposition and was not his conclusion.

    What he's saying is that fighting could last a long time, yes that can be what happens in warfare. Its brutal, and bloody, and its not a Hollywood action movie where some conquering hero comes in and clears all the enemy singlehandedly and rapidly.

    All the more reason for us to support Ukraine for the long term. The opposite of the conclusion you seem to be drawing.
    You are, as ever, confused

    The article (from the Kyiv Independent) which refers to the Russians being "better trained", etc, was from the Kharkiv front. Go look down the thread. It was published Sept 1

    This even more pessimistic article from the southern from - same media source - dates from August 27
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    x

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    He's also intimating that the Ukes are definitely going to lose, so should cut their losses

    And he's talking up the hundred billion views of the Carson Orban interview that's basically Putin approved propaganda

    He'd been veering too close to the dark side for my liking since his return
    This is where PB loses its mind. I am pointing out that Ukraine has significant problems on its eastern front - coz their resources are stretched - and I did that citing a pro-Ukraine source! The Kyiv Independent

    Meanwhile I wondered if we are really seeing a breakthrough in the south. TBH the situation on the ground is hard to discern, and there are conflicting accounts, some of the more pessimistic appraisals come, again, from Ukrainians. The evidence I provided for this came from that well known Putnist apologiser-media, the BBC

    And becuause of this I am "veering to the dark side" like I have signed up for The Wagner Group

    Honestly, get a grip
    The piece you linked to earlier was highlighting issues for the Ukrainians away from where their counter-assault is concentrated - where all the best men and kit currently are

    You made it sound like that’s the situation everywhere; I hope you did that ignorantly

    You’re also caught up in a weird sensationalism of twitX views of a video of an interview that is offensively wrong from its first sentence
    OK try this then. This is also from the Kyiv Independent. A pro-Ukraine source in Ukraine. Funded by Canada, praised by the UK and EU, and so on

    It's a report from the southern front. And it is way more negative than anything we generally read in the West

    Sample paragraphs:



    "Eighteen months into the full-scale war however, the formation, with units fighting on all three axes of the counteroffensive, is now beginning to pay a high price for its makeup of volunteers, rather than mobilized soldiers.

    “It's hard to go forward, we don't have new weapons and equipment, and these days our personnel aren't being replaced,” said Ilnytskyi."


    "Since Ukrainian forces first regained the initiative around Bakhmut in May, Ground Forces Commander Oleksandr Syrskyi has repeatedly claimed that the occupied city was in the process of being “encircled.” On the ground, that still looks like a distant dream.

    “Everyone has their own job, their own mission,” said Lavryniuk dryly. “If they (Syrskyi) say things like that then maybe they know something we don't"

    "Whatever gains the southern counteroffensive makes before culmination, both sides look set for a gruelling struggle that could last for years more.

    Eighteen months in, concern is mounting among soldiers, from commanders to the rank and file, that for much of the country’s civilian population, the war is increasingly fading into the distance, even as the fighting shows no signs of dying down."

    Tell me, why are the UKRAINIANS being so negative? Perhaps they, like me, have "veered to the dark side"

    https://kyivindependent.com/inching-forward-in-bakhmut-counteroffensive-ukraines-hardened-units-look-ahead-to-long-grim-war/
    Man, if you think that's negative, you should try reading some Russian Telegraph channels.

    The journalist himself says this:

    "Hi, this is Francis Farrell, cheers for reading this article. It's been a while since I've done a field report from around Bakhmut, but this time was definitely different. For those of us who are dedicated to the victory of Ukraine, there is no point living with rose-tinted goggles on, this is what it will look like for a long time. As long as it goes on, we will be here, reporting on it as it is"

    I'm hazarding a guess he knows more than you, even though he has more motivation to be positive than you
    I'm sure he does.

    But that doesn't take anything away from my comment: the Russians are also having a shit time.
    Tho war is shit for almost everyone, it is easier to defend than attack. Ask the Germans at the Somme. The Ukrainians probably have it worse at the moment
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075

    Now, now, "Leon" is simply doing his job, as PB's Chief Morale Officer

    Which makes him the PB equivalent of Neelix.

    😀😀😀😀

  • .
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    x

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    He's also intimating that the Ukes are definitely going to lose, so should cut their losses

    And he's talking up the hundred billion views of the Carson Orban interview that's basically Putin approved propaganda

    He'd been veering too close to the dark side for my liking since his return
    This is where PB loses its mind. I am pointing out that Ukraine has significant problems on its eastern front - coz their resources are stretched - and I did that citing a pro-Ukraine source! The Kyiv Independent

    Meanwhile I wondered if we are really seeing a breakthrough in the south. TBH the situation on the ground is hard to discern, and there are conflicting accounts, some of the more pessimistic appraisals come, again, from Ukrainians. The evidence I provided for this came from that well known Putnist apologiser-media, the BBC

    And becuause of this I am "veering to the dark side" like I have signed up for The Wagner Group

    Honestly, get a grip
    The piece you linked to earlier was highlighting issues for the Ukrainians away from where their counter-assault is concentrated - where all the best men and kit currently are

    You made it sound like that’s the situation everywhere; I hope you did that ignorantly

    You’re also caught up in a weird sensationalism of twitX views of a video of an interview that is offensively wrong from its first sentence
    OK try this then. This is also from the Kyiv Independent. A pro-Ukraine source in Ukraine. Funded by Canada, praised by the UK and EU, and so on

    It's a report from the southern front. And it is way more negative than anything we generally read in the West

    Sample paragraphs:



    "Eighteen months into the full-scale war however, the formation, with units fighting on all three axes of the counteroffensive, is now beginning to pay a high price for its makeup of volunteers, rather than mobilized soldiers.

    “It's hard to go forward, we don't have new weapons and equipment, and these days our personnel aren't being replaced,” said Ilnytskyi."


    "Since Ukrainian forces first regained the initiative around Bakhmut in May, Ground Forces Commander Oleksandr Syrskyi has repeatedly claimed that the occupied city was in the process of being “encircled.” On the ground, that still looks like a distant dream.

    “Everyone has their own job, their own mission,” said Lavryniuk dryly. “If they (Syrskyi) say things like that then maybe they know something we don't"

    "Whatever gains the southern counteroffensive makes before culmination, both sides look set for a gruelling struggle that could last for years more.

    Eighteen months in, concern is mounting among soldiers, from commanders to the rank and file, that for much of the country’s civilian population, the war is increasingly fading into the distance, even as the fighting shows no signs of dying down."

    Tell me, why are the UKRAINIANS being so negative? Perhaps they, like me, have "veered to the dark side"

    https://kyivindependent.com/inching-forward-in-bakhmut-counteroffensive-ukraines-hardened-units-look-ahead-to-long-grim-war/
    Man, if you think that's negative, you should try reading some Russian Telegraph channels.

    The journalist himself says this:

    "Hi, this is Francis Farrell, cheers for reading this article. It's been a while since I've done a field report from around Bakhmut, but this time was definitely different. For those of us who are dedicated to the victory of Ukraine, there is no point living with rose-tinted goggles on, this is what it will look like for a long time. As long as it goes on, we will be here, reporting on it as it is"

    I'm hazarding a guess he knows more than you, even though he has more motivation to be positive than you
    Is there any chance that this is a supporting document for the application for more weapons?
    That possibility occurred to me, but this is really detailed lying, if that is what it is: a pack of lies designed to get more F-16s or whatever

    I don't believe it is. I think this is the truth - or one version of the battlefield truth as seen by one Canadian-Ukrainian (I think) journalist

    A perusal of the entire Kyiv Independen website is, in truth, a rather sobering exercise if you are eager for Ukraine to win, and win quick (so as to save lives on all sides)
    Who on here is saying Ukraine will win quick.

    The ambition is to see Ukraine win. A quick end to the war is in Russia's interests, not Ukraine's.

    Russia is on the backfoot and wants to cling on to the landbridge it has seized. Hence the desperation of its western pundits to see an end to the war.

    Ukraine are in this for the long haul. We should support them in that.

    The way I see it, the ideal plausible scenario this year is they can sever the land bridge, getting Tokmak and the Rails and the Motorway under HIMARS range (super ideal would be to retake Tokmak and sever it completely) and then they can sever Russia's ability to reinforce its troops that would then be trapped in the west and further isolate Crimea. Next year then Ukraine should be able to push on again having weakened the isolated troops.

    There is no artificial deadline to do this by.

    Isolating troops and weakening them that way, which Ukraine did to great success to liberate Kherson for instance, is something that can take months not days.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    Now, now, "Leon" is simply doing his job, as PB's Chief Morale Officer.

    Granted, in most organizations, the job of suchlike is boosting morale, NOT deflating it?

    Guess that means we're VERY special!

    Leon is our emotional support clown nothing more
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    edited September 2023
    Omnium said:

    Leon isn't a Putin apologist, fash sympathiser or anything else.

    He's just a luvvie and a professional bedwetter.

    He'd have been taken to the rear in a strait jacket, had he been in the trenches during WW1. And during WW2 he'd have no doubt been hanging onto the coattails of Halifax urging us to make peace in June 1940.

    Why are you all obsessed with discussing Leon? I struggle to think of a duller subject (the words about him rather than he himself)



    I entirely agree, I don't want this to be "about me". It's fucking ludicrous

    I am simply offering a different, less hopeful perspective on the war (than some). and I am carefully backing up my claims with actual evidence (either from Ukrainian sources, or the BBC)

    On the other side there are people just hurling juvenile abuse - "collaborator", "blackshirt", "Putinist", "bedwetter", "fucking appeaser" - and offering no evidence at all

    It's truly boring, and also childish
  • viewcode said:

    Now, now, "Leon" is simply doing his job, as PB's Chief Morale Officer

    Which makes him the PB equivalent of Neelix.

    😀😀😀😀

    Nothing depressed me more in Voyager than Neelix.
  • Sandpit said:

    .

    .

    Leon said:

    x

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    He's also intimating that the Ukes are definitely going to lose, so should cut their losses

    And he's talking up the hundred billion views of the Carson Orban interview that's basically Putin approved propaganda

    He'd been veering too close to the dark side for my liking since his return
    This is where PB loses its mind. I am pointing out that Ukraine has significant problems on its eastern front - coz their resources are stretched - and I did that citing a pro-Ukraine source! The Kyiv Independent

    Meanwhile I wondered if we are really seeing a breakthrough in the south. TBH the situation on the ground is hard to discern, and there are conflicting accounts, some of the more pessimistic appraisals come, again, from Ukrainians. The evidence I provided for this came from that well known Putnist apologiser-media, the BBC

    And becuause of this I am "veering to the dark side" like I have signed up for The Wagner Group

    Honestly, get a grip
    The piece you linked to earlier was highlighting issues for the Ukrainians away from where their counter-assault is concentrated - where all the best men and kit currently are

    You made it sound like that’s the situation everywhere; I hope you did that ignorantly

    You’re also caught up in a weird sensationalism of twitX views of a video of an interview that is offensively wrong from its first sentence
    OK try this then. This is also from the Kyiv Independent. A pro-Ukraine source in Ukraine. Funded by Canada, praised by the UK and EU, and so on

    It's a report from the southern front. And it is way more negative than anything we generally read in the West

    Sample paragraphs:



    "Eighteen months into the full-scale war however, the formation, with units fighting on all three axes of the counteroffensive, is now beginning to pay a high price for its makeup of volunteers, rather than mobilized soldiers.

    “It's hard to go forward, we don't have new weapons and equipment, and these days our personnel aren't being replaced,” said Ilnytskyi."


    "Since Ukrainian forces first regained the initiative around Bakhmut in May, Ground Forces Commander Oleksandr Syrskyi has repeatedly claimed that the occupied city was in the process of being “encircled.” On the ground, that still looks like a distant dream.

    “Everyone has their own job, their own mission,” said Lavryniuk dryly. “If they (Syrskyi) say things like that then maybe they know something we don't"

    "Whatever gains the southern counteroffensive makes before culmination, both sides look set for a gruelling struggle that could last for years more.

    Eighteen months in, concern is mounting among soldiers, from commanders to the rank and file, that for much of the country’s civilian population, the war is increasingly fading into the distance, even as the fighting shows no signs of dying down."

    Tell me, why are the UKRAINIANS being so negative? Perhaps they, like me, have "veered to the dark side"

    https://kyivindependent.com/inching-forward-in-bakhmut-counteroffensive-ukraines-hardened-units-look-ahead-to-long-grim-war/
    War is hell.

    The issue is not that the Ukrainians are pointing out problems, that is a given.

    The issue is your 2 + 2 = 5 logic.

    The Ukrainians don't want to surrender. They want more ammunition, more supplies, more assistance, not less.

    You take the fact there are issues and then extrapolate that to saying that Ukraine is losing the war, which is not true.

    Heck as the report you quoted says, the war could last years more. The Ukrainians aren't gearing up for surrender, they're up for the fight, and they're prepared to fight for years if that is what it takes - and we can and should support them for as long as they're willing and able to fight.
    The fastest way this war finishes, is for the western world to give the Ukranians every weapons system we have spare.

    Just because a bunch of right and left Americans want to see ‘peace’, doesn’t mean that the Ukranians don’t want as many weapons as they can get their hands on.
    Much more with "right" than "left" Americans, based on polling I've seen as well as views of my numerous leftie friends & acquaintances.

    Seems to be different in UK. But in USA, leftwingers who wanna pimp for Putin, are mostly getting nowhere fast with their bullshit.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    Settling just gives Russians time to regroup and rearm , Ukraine have to keep going , shit or bust. If they lose then NATO will be in it next time for sure.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Now, now, "Leon" is simply doing his job, as PB's Chief Morale Officer.

    Granted, in most organizations, the job of suchlike is boosting morale, NOT deflating it?

    Guess that means we're VERY special!

    Leon is our emotional support clown nothing more
    With one of his props being a rubber crutch.
  • viewcode said:

    Now, now, "Leon" is simply doing his job, as PB's Chief Morale Officer

    Which makes him the PB equivalent of Neelix.

    😀😀😀😀

    Nothing depressed me more in Voyager than Neelix.
    Are you repressing the episode 'Threshold' where Tom Paris went past warp 10 and evolved into a reptile and had babies with Janeway?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    Leon said:

    .

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    x

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    He's also intimating that the Ukes are definitely going to lose, so should cut their losses

    And he's talking up the hundred billion views of the Carson Orban interview that's basically Putin approved propaganda

    He'd been veering too close to the dark side for my liking since his return
    This is where PB loses its mind. I am pointing out that Ukraine has significant problems on its eastern front - coz their resources are stretched - and I did that citing a pro-Ukraine source! The Kyiv Independent

    Meanwhile I wondered if we are really seeing a breakthrough in the south. TBH the situation on the ground is hard to discern, and there are conflicting accounts, some of the more pessimistic appraisals come, again, from Ukrainians. The evidence I provided for this came from that well known Putnist apologiser-media, the BBC

    And becuause of this I am "veering to the dark side" like I have signed up for The Wagner Group

    Honestly, get a grip
    The piece you linked to earlier was highlighting issues for the Ukrainians away from where their counter-assault is concentrated - where all the best men and kit currently are

    You made it sound like that’s the situation everywhere; I hope you did that ignorantly

    You’re also caught up in a weird sensationalism of twitX views of a video of an interview that is offensively wrong from its first sentence
    OK try this then. This is also from the Kyiv Independent. A pro-Ukraine source in Ukraine. Funded by Canada, praised by the UK and EU, and so on

    It's a report from the southern front. And it is way more negative than anything we generally read in the West

    Sample paragraphs:



    "Eighteen months into the full-scale war however, the formation, with units fighting on all three axes of the counteroffensive, is now beginning to pay a high price for its makeup of volunteers, rather than mobilized soldiers.

    “It's hard to go forward, we don't have new weapons and equipment, and these days our personnel aren't being replaced,” said Ilnytskyi."


    "Since Ukrainian forces first regained the initiative around Bakhmut in May, Ground Forces Commander Oleksandr Syrskyi has repeatedly claimed that the occupied city was in the process of being “encircled.” On the ground, that still looks like a distant dream.

    “Everyone has their own job, their own mission,” said Lavryniuk dryly. “If they (Syrskyi) say things like that then maybe they know something we don't"

    "Whatever gains the southern counteroffensive makes before culmination, both sides look set for a gruelling struggle that could last for years more.

    Eighteen months in, concern is mounting among soldiers, from commanders to the rank and file, that for much of the country’s civilian population, the war is increasingly fading into the distance, even as the fighting shows no signs of dying down."

    Tell me, why are the UKRAINIANS being so negative? Perhaps they, like me, have "veered to the dark side"

    https://kyivindependent.com/inching-forward-in-bakhmut-counteroffensive-ukraines-hardened-units-look-ahead-to-long-grim-war/
    Man, if you think that's negative, you should try reading some Russian Telegraph channels.

    The journalist himself says this:

    "Hi, this is Francis Farrell, cheers for reading this article. It's been a while since I've done a field report from around Bakhmut, but this time was definitely different. For those of us who are dedicated to the victory of Ukraine, there is no point living with rose-tinted goggles on, this is what it will look like for a long time. As long as it goes on, we will be here, reporting on it as it is"

    I'm hazarding a guess he knows more than you, even though he has more motivation to be positive than you
    Yes, what he's saying is honest reporting.

    It is not what you're saying.

    He's not saying that Ukraine are "running out of men" or that the "Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated" or that Ukraine is "slowly losing this war" that is your supposition and was not his conclusion.

    What he's saying is that fighting could last a long time, yes that can be what happens in warfare. Its brutal, and bloody, and its not a Hollywood action movie where some conquering hero comes in and clears all the enemy singlehandedly and rapidly.

    All the more reason for us to support Ukraine for the long term. The opposite of the conclusion you seem to be drawing.
    You are, as ever, confused

    The article (from the Kyiv Independent) which refers to the Russians being "better trained", etc, was from the Kharkiv front. Go look down the thread. It was published Sept 1

    This even more pessimistic article from the southern from - same media source - dates from August 27
    It still said it was talking about beginning of August.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    edited September 2023
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    x

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This isn't good. Ukraine struggling - badly - on the Kharkiv front

    Many of us have said it before, they are simply running out of men. Meanwhile the Russians seem better equipped, better trained, and even better motivated. NB this is a usually pro-Kyiv source


    "It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage."

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    Ukraine, I fear, is slowly losing this war. Or at least: not winning

    You are having a laugh saying Russians are better trained, they are mainly just out of prisons or back of beyond, stuck in a WWII tank or with an old pitchfork etc and sent to the front. They have lots of people but not so many real soldiers.
    It's not me saying it, it is the Ukrainian soldiers in that report from a highly pro-Ukrainian source

    It also makes sense. The Ukrainians are absolutely gallant and determined, no doubt, but it is a small country compared to Russia, and the Ukes have lost 200,000 or more to death and injury. They've already lost many (most?) of their properly trained troops, and they are now relying on conscripts who get 3 weeks training in NATO then in they go
    What are you smoking? The actual reports from Ukraine are nothing like that.

    The troops now being deployed to push the Robotyne win down towards Tokmak, are the elite units held back earlier in the year, and working with the new NATO tanks and rockets.
    Can you not read?

    I am referring to this report - I linked it, go see - on the Kharkiv front

    Here it is again:



    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/
    Give them more and better weapons. It’s existential.
    And damn good value for money, from a Western perspective.
    It is very hard to see the deaths of 100,000s of men and women as “damn good value for money” - whatever your perspective on the war

    I really question some of these western sentiments
    Do you want the Ukrainians to surrender right away?
    All Leon is doing is questioning whether the Ukrainians should settle at some point or move back quite a long way.
    He's also intimating that the Ukes are definitely going to lose, so should cut their losses

    And he's talking up the hundred billion views of the Carson Orban interview that's basically Putin approved propaganda

    He'd been veering too close to the dark side for my liking since his return
    This is where PB loses its mind. I am pointing out that Ukraine has significant problems on its eastern front - coz their resources are stretched - and I did that citing a pro-Ukraine source! The Kyiv Independent

    Meanwhile I wondered if we are really seeing a breakthrough in the south. TBH the situation on the ground is hard to discern, and there are conflicting accounts, some of the more pessimistic appraisals come, again, from Ukrainians. The evidence I provided for this came from that well known Putnist apologiser-media, the BBC

    And becuause of this I am "veering to the dark side" like I have signed up for The Wagner Group

    Honestly, get a grip
    The piece you linked to earlier was highlighting issues for the Ukrainians away from where their counter-assault is concentrated - where all the best men and kit currently are

    You made it sound like that’s the situation everywhere; I hope you did that ignorantly

    You’re also caught up in a weird sensationalism of twitX views of a video of an interview that is offensively wrong from its first sentence
    OK try this then. This is also from the Kyiv Independent. A pro-Ukraine source in Ukraine. Funded by Canada, praised by the UK and EU, and so on

    It's a report from the southern front. And it is way more negative than anything we generally read in the West

    Sample paragraphs:



    "Eighteen months into the full-scale war however, the formation, with units fighting on all three axes of the counteroffensive, is now beginning to pay a high price for its makeup of volunteers, rather than mobilized soldiers.

    “It's hard to go forward, we don't have new weapons and equipment, and these days our personnel aren't being replaced,” said Ilnytskyi."


    "Since Ukrainian forces first regained the initiative around Bakhmut in May, Ground Forces Commander Oleksandr Syrskyi has repeatedly claimed that the occupied city was in the process of being “encircled.” On the ground, that still looks like a distant dream.

    “Everyone has their own job, their own mission,” said Lavryniuk dryly. “If they (Syrskyi) say things like that then maybe they know something we don't"

    "Whatever gains the southern counteroffensive makes before culmination, both sides look set for a gruelling struggle that could last for years more.

    Eighteen months in, concern is mounting among soldiers, from commanders to the rank and file, that for much of the country’s civilian population, the war is increasingly fading into the distance, even as the fighting shows no signs of dying down."

    Tell me, why are the UKRAINIANS being so negative? Perhaps they, like me, have "veered to the dark side"

    https://kyivindependent.com/inching-forward-in-bakhmut-counteroffensive-ukraines-hardened-units-look-ahead-to-long-grim-war/
    Man, if you think that's negative, you should try reading some Russian Telegraph channels.

    The journalist himself says this:

    "Hi, this is Francis Farrell, cheers for reading this article. It's been a while since I've done a field report from around Bakhmut, but this time was definitely different. For those of us who are dedicated to the victory of Ukraine, there is no point living with rose-tinted goggles on, this is what it will look like for a long time. As long as it goes on, we will be here, reporting on it as it is"

    I'm hazarding a guess he knows more than you, even though he has more motivation to be positive than you
    I'm sure he does.

    But that doesn't take anything away from my comment: the Russians are also having a shit time.
    Tho war is shit for almost everyone, it is easier to defend than attack. Ask the Germans at the Somme. The Ukrainians probably have it worse at the moment
    Did you really not talk to any actual Ukranians, having being paid thousands to go there?

    Stop being a contrarian idiot, understand just how much the defenders want to defend, and get behind them putting the bear back in its cage.
This discussion has been closed.