If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.
Aberfan happened under a Labour government.
Factually true. But nonetheless an absolutely ridiculous and quite frankly offensive partisan post. I have never heard anyone party politicise the Aberfan disaster before today.
Are you actually aware of the circumstances around that tragedy?
Good morning
I agree with you, and as a someone who became a parent for the first time 8 days after Aberfan in October 1966 the memory is seared in our mind as we held our new born son close and grieved with our fellow Welsh parents suffering such a terrible loss of their child and in some cases children
It is not appropriate to politicise it
But it is appropriate to learn the lessons from it. And, sadly, those lessons are still applicable today and are still not being learnt, which is why we get repetitions of scandals affecting people who are then treated by public services and public servants with contempt and callousness.
Now they say they will pay for portacabins. I assume some Tory contractors are lined up to like their pockets. But portacabins are terrible for learning in (I know) and cost a bomb.
We had Portakabins at my primary and secondary schools. Never did me any harm... YMMV
You ask them the time, they borrow your watch, tell you the time and keep your watch. Summary of what consultants do. Employed by those unwilling to make a decision themselves or who can't see the wood for the trees.
Currently working on a project where a manager of another team engaged some consultants to "help" us with the design. Net result, we give them the design, they slap their logo on it and send it back to him with a huge bill attached.
This video is like the sort of guff companies put up on their Intranet. "Five minutes with the CFO" where we learn their favourite pizza topping and the name of their cat.
Our ex-CEO went one better. Not content with a video, he wanted live broadcasts. Technically problematic, hugely expensive. Happily both he and they are now gone.
There is a repeating pattern here. By 1997 much of the national infrastructure was crumbling. Schools being held up by emergency reinforcements, terrible public services provision, hospital waiting times a national disgrace, and a spiv class making it large as "marketisation" diverted cash away from the front line and into their pockets.
And here we are again. I see the Tories and fellow travellers are straight onto "youcan'tblametheToriesasStarmerwon'tbeabletochangeit". And "it" being the terrible mess created by the Tories.
So yes, we can blame them. And polls show that the public rightly blame them as well.
There are no easy solutions from here. No magic wand or silver bullet solution. But to start recovery you have to accept the reality of the situation. And the Tories simply can't. Which is why their removal - even if Labour don't possess a magic wand - will be a relief celebrated by millions.
If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.
Aberfan happened under a Labour government.
Factually true. But nonetheless an absolutely ridiculous and quite frankly offensive partisan post. I have never heard anyone party politicise the Aberfan disaster before today.
Are you actually aware of the circumstances around that tragedy?
Good morning
I agree with you, and as a someone who became a parent for the first time 8 days after Aberfan in October 1966 the memory is seared in our mind as we held our new born son close and grieved with our fellow Welsh parents suffering such a terrible loss of their child and in some cases children
It is not appropriate to politicise it
Exactly right.
@OnlyLivingBoy politicised it upthread. I then turned a mirror right back on it (to make that very point) and then @Mexicanpete cried blue murder.
It just shows how lacking in self-awareness and objectivity he is.
He did not. The lack of self awareness is that you think he did.
It makes not a blind bit of difference who was in power when Aberfan occurred. What matters is learning lessons from it. The fear is we might not.
There is a repeating pattern here. By 1997 much of the national infrastructure was crumbling. Schools being held up by emergency reinforcements, terrible public services provision, hospital waiting times a national disgrace, and a spiv class making it large as "marketisation" diverted cash away from the front line and into their pockets.
And here we are again. I see the Tories and fellow travellers are straight onto "youcan'tblametheToriesasStarmerwon'tbeabletochangeit". And "it" being the terrible mess created by the Tories.
So yes, we can blame them. And polls show that the public rightly blame them as well.
There are no easy solutions from here. No magic wand or silver bullet solution. But to start recovery you have to accept the reality of the situation. And the Tories simply can't. Which is why their removal - even if Labour don't possess a magic wand - will be a relief celebrated by millions.
Labour on Laura K wont commit to doing anything about it either
The government doesn't care about state schools because they mostly don't use them and neither do their donors. Other people's kids. Their priority is protecting their own interests so their first instinct is how to not spend any money, not how to keep kids safe. If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.
The government asks the minister a set of questions, and puts it online as if it were a proper interview.
The damnable, North Korean, sauce of it.
One of the more disgraceful trends over the last decade is how no one is made available at Ministerial level to do these interviews and press conferences. It is a deliberate insult to the voting public and moral cowardice.
They do it to attempt to kill the story by preventing "balance" as the BBC and other media cannot just put up opposition spokespeople.
They should have sent out Grant Shapps.
He could also then explain why a man who was caught lying to parliament, who either uses false identities or insecure passwords, who has been accused of fraud and has never in his life done a good job in an administrative department is fit to be heading the Security Service.
Over the last 26 years I've worked as a senior leader in 5 different secondary schools.
The Government's handling of this has been dreadful. The silence about which school are affected has caused parental anxiety, and "we wanted to let school leaders tell parents first" doesn't work when some schools don't have the staff back till Monday 4th September. It's also inconsistent with how other announcements are made (eg when money is doled out for significant capital work, often a national announcement is made and the list of successful school bids is included in a spreadsheet on a website: the DfE seem happy to announce good news themselves, but seem to want to leave it to schools to announce bad news...).
The dance music video is just bizarre.
But the bigger picture is, I'm afraid, one of political cowardice. Our public services generally are greatly underfunded. I've seen that first-hand where I've worked. If we want school buildings that aren't prone to collapsing, or a health system where you can get to see someone (anyone) without unreasonable delay, or efficient courts, or... sorry, but we have to fund said public services appropriately.
Maybe, given the dire state things are in, voters will vote accordingly in the next 16 months.
Public spending has reached its highest ever level. The state is not "underfunded" we're just spending on the wrong things.
Also spending it incredibly inefficiently in many ways. NHS diversity officers that cost as much as three nurses. Would ANYBODY rather have the former than the latter? Staggering waste.
That will always be the case - the larger an organisation is, the more bloat and waste there is. Bloated European governments test that theory to destruction.
Exactly , on radio today they were saying midwife per day in NHS at 20 quid an hour , meanwhile they are using agencies at 1200 quid a day , 400 to midwife and 800 to agency. Economic madness.
The government doesn't care about state schools because they mostly don't use them and neither do their donors. Other people's kids. Their priority is protecting their own interests so their first instinct is how to not spend any money, not how to keep kids safe. If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.
Bullshit
Which bit?
BTW only a man who cant argue the point replies with Bullshit
If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.
Aberfan happened under a Labour government.
Factually true. But nonetheless an absolutely ridiculous and quite frankly offensive partisan post. I have never heard anyone party politicise the Aberfan disaster before today.
Are you actually aware of the circumstances around that tragedy?
Good morning
I agree with you, and as a someone who became a parent for the first time 8 days after Aberfan in October 1966 the memory is seared in our mind as we held our new born son close and grieved with our fellow Welsh parents suffering such a terrible loss of their child and in some cases children
It is not appropriate to politicise it
Exactly right.
@OnlyLivingBoy politicised it upthread. I then turned a mirror right back on it (to make that very point) and then @Mexicanpete cried blue murder.
It just shows how lacking in self-awareness and objectivity he is.
He did not. The lack of self awareness is that you think he did.
It makes not a blind bit of difference who was in power when Aberfan occurred. What matters is learning lessons from it. The fear is we might not.
He did. He cast a direct and prima facie claim that the Tories didn't care about the lives of state school kids, and then compared it to Aberfan.
It was extremely offensive.
The fact you can't see it only highlights your partisanship, and greatly lessens my respect for you.
Over the last 26 years I've worked as a senior leader in 5 different secondary schools.
The Government's handling of this has been dreadful. The silence about which school are affected has caused parental anxiety, and "we wanted to let school leaders tell parents first" doesn't work when some schools don't have the staff back till Monday 4th September. It's also inconsistent with how other announcements are made (eg when money is doled out for significant capital work, often a national announcement is made and the list of successful school bids is included in a spreadsheet on a website: the DfE seem happy to announce good news themselves, but seem to want to leave it to schools to announce bad news...).
The dance music video is just bizarre.
But the bigger picture is, I'm afraid, one of political cowardice. Our public services generally are greatly underfunded. I've seen that first-hand where I've worked. If we want school buildings that aren't prone to collapsing, or a health system where you can get to see someone (anyone) without unreasonable delay, or efficient courts, or... sorry, but we have to fund said public services appropriately.
Maybe, given the dire state things are in, voters will vote accordingly in the next 16 months.
Public spending has reached its highest ever level. The state is not "underfunded" we're just spending on the wrong things.
Also spending it incredibly inefficiently in many ways. NHS diversity officers that cost as much as three nurses. Would ANYBODY rather have the former than the latter? Staggering waste.
That will always be the case - the larger an organisation is, the more bloat and waste there is. Bloated European governments test that theory to destruction.
Exactly , on radio today they were saying midwife per day in NHS at 20 quid an hour , meanwhile they are using agencies at 1200 quid a day , 400 to midwife and 800 to agency. Economic madness.
Margaret Thatcher had something to say about markets, and the possibility of bucking them.
Gorgeous, looked like a nice day for the weather as well.
Gorgeous? Look at that all pollution spewing out of the exhaust.
Clagtastic.
Fortunately, the Worth Valley is outside of the Bradford ULEZ.
You should have seen what was being emitting by the steam loco.
"Diesel and Ale" trains are going to become far more common, sadly, due to the horrendous price of coal now.
My local heritage railway has to now buy on the global market from Poland and China and it's 5 times more expensive than it was 5 years ago.
The diesel and ale is all about attracting additional punters to the line. There must have been over 20 cranks who wouldn't have turned up if all the services were steam hauled. More tickets sold, more ale sold, more refreshments sold.
But yes, the price of coal is becoming a real issue.
There is a repeating pattern here. By 1997 much of the national infrastructure was crumbling. Schools being held up by emergency reinforcements, terrible public services provision, hospital waiting times a national disgrace, and a spiv class making it large as "marketisation" diverted cash away from the front line and into their pockets.
And here we are again. I see the Tories and fellow travellers are straight onto "youcan'tblametheToriesasStarmerwon'tbeabletochangeit". And "it" being the terrible mess created by the Tories.
So yes, we can blame them. And polls show that the public rightly blame them as well.
There are no easy solutions from here. No magic wand or silver bullet solution. But to start recovery you have to accept the reality of the situation. And the Tories simply can't. Which is why their removal - even if Labour don't possess a magic wand - will be a relief celebrated by millions.
Labour on Laura K wont commit to doing anything about it either
Blue Tories/ Red Tories same thing
Labour will leave kids in crumbling schools without replacing them?
Those straws you cling to as you justify why you're now a Tory are getting sillier than ever.
Over the last 26 years I've worked as a senior leader in 5 different secondary schools.
The Government's handling of this has been dreadful. The silence about which school are affected has caused parental anxiety, and "we wanted to let school leaders tell parents first" doesn't work when some schools don't have the staff back till Monday 4th September. It's also inconsistent with how other announcements are made (eg when money is doled out for significant capital work, often a national announcement is made and the list of successful school bids is included in a spreadsheet on a website: the DfE seem happy to announce good news themselves, but seem to want to leave it to schools to announce bad news...).
The dance music video is just bizarre.
But the bigger picture is, I'm afraid, one of political cowardice. Our public services generally are greatly underfunded. I've seen that first-hand where I've worked. If we want school buildings that aren't prone to collapsing, or a health system where you can get to see someone (anyone) without unreasonable delay, or efficient courts, or... sorry, but we have to fund said public services appropriately.
Maybe, given the dire state things are in, voters will vote accordingly in the next 16 months.
Public spending has reached its highest ever level. The state is not "underfunded" we're just spending on the wrong things.
Also spending it incredibly inefficiently in many ways. NHS diversity officers that cost as much as three nurses. Would ANYBODY rather have the former than the latter? Staggering waste.
That will always be the case - the larger an organisation is, the more bloat and waste there is. Bloated European governments test that theory to destruction.
Exactly , on radio today they were saying midwife per day in NHS at 20 quid an hour , meanwhile they are using agencies at 1200 quid a day , 400 to midwife and 800 to agency. Economic madness.
Yep. One reason that the doctors strike has cost £1 billion is the agency costs.
Incidentally why the staff can afford to contine, as picking up extra shifts to cover gaps at agency rates.
Cheaper to settle properly, like the Scots have done.
There is a repeating pattern here. By 1997 much of the national infrastructure was crumbling. Schools being held up by emergency reinforcements, terrible public services provision, hospital waiting times a national disgrace, and a spiv class making it large as "marketisation" diverted cash away from the front line and into their pockets.
And here we are again. I see the Tories and fellow travellers are straight onto "youcan'tblametheToriesasStarmerwon'tbeabletochangeit". And "it" being the terrible mess created by the Tories.
So yes, we can blame them. And polls show that the public rightly blame them as well.
There are no easy solutions from here. No magic wand or silver bullet solution. But to start recovery you have to accept the reality of the situation. And the Tories simply can't. Which is why their removal - even if Labour don't possess a magic wand - will be a relief celebrated by millions.
Labour on Laura K wont commit to doing anything about it either
Blue Tories/ Red Tories same thing
Labour will leave kids in crumbling schools without replacing them?
Those straws you cling to as you justify why you're now a Tory are getting sillier than ever.
typical Laura K, softball the tory minister (if they bother showing up) and then lambast the shadow minister for 15 minutes.
Over the last 26 years I've worked as a senior leader in 5 different secondary schools.
The Government's handling of this has been dreadful. The silence about which school are affected has caused parental anxiety, and "we wanted to let school leaders tell parents first" doesn't work when some schools don't have the staff back till Monday 4th September. It's also inconsistent with how other announcements are made (eg when money is doled out for significant capital work, often a national announcement is made and the list of successful school bids is included in a spreadsheet on a website: the DfE seem happy to announce good news themselves, but seem to want to leave it to schools to announce bad news...).
The dance music video is just bizarre.
But the bigger picture is, I'm afraid, one of political cowardice. Our public services generally are greatly underfunded. I've seen that first-hand where I've worked. If we want school buildings that aren't prone to collapsing, or a health system where you can get to see someone (anyone) without unreasonable delay, or efficient courts, or... sorry, but we have to fund said public services appropriately.
Maybe, given the dire state things are in, voters will vote accordingly in the next 16 months.
Public spending has reached its highest ever level. The state is not "underfunded" we're just spending on the wrong things.
Also spending it incredibly inefficiently in many ways. NHS diversity officers that cost as much as three nurses. Would ANYBODY rather have the former than the latter? Staggering waste.
That will always be the case - the larger an organisation is, the more bloat and waste there is. Bloated European governments test that theory to destruction.
Exactly , on radio today they were saying midwife per day in NHS at 20 quid an hour , meanwhile they are using agencies at 1200 quid a day , 400 to midwife and 800 to agency. Economic madness.
Margaret Thatcher had something to say about markets, and the possibility of bucking them.
They don't like market forces when they favour the workers.
There is a repeating pattern here. By 1997 much of the national infrastructure was crumbling. Schools being held up by emergency reinforcements, terrible public services provision, hospital waiting times a national disgrace, and a spiv class making it large as "marketisation" diverted cash away from the front line and into their pockets.
And here we are again. I see the Tories and fellow travellers are straight onto "youcan'tblametheToriesasStarmerwon'tbeabletochangeit". And "it" being the terrible mess created by the Tories.
So yes, we can blame them. And polls show that the public rightly blame them as well.
There are no easy solutions from here. No magic wand or silver bullet solution. But to start recovery you have to accept the reality of the situation. And the Tories simply can't. Which is why their removal - even if Labour don't possess a magic wand - will be a relief celebrated by millions.
Labour on Laura K wont commit to doing anything about it either
Blue Tories/ Red Tories same thing
Well I don´t support either party, but I can tell you that the Blue Tories must be removed from power at the earliest opportunity. While I appreciate that the Blue Tories want you to think that there is no difference/nothing can change/there´re all the same, the reality is that there is no hope at all if the Blues stay in office.
The country needs the catharsis of getting rid of these utter shower of shits, and doesn´t much care beyond that.
Thank you @TSE for this thread and I totally agree.
Meanwhile Adam Boulton on Sky is on fine form:
'MPs are returning to Westminster on Monday for the rapidly accelerating downhill run to the next general election.
Thanks to Boris Johnson's success in repealing the Fixed Term Parliament Act there is no precise guidance as to when that date with political destiny will be.
The next general election could even take place the year after next.
If this parliament runs right up to the constitutional buffers, the Commons would be dissolved on 17 December 2024, with the general election taking place no later than 28 January 2025.
Would the Conservatives be wise to campaign for last-gasp re-election through Christmas and the traditional January blues?
Probably not.
The general assumption is that the prime minister will have to screw up his courage and ask the King to call the general election during 2024.
The nation faces months of torrid electioneering until then.
A Sunak win would go against the pattern of history
It is difficult to boast of any significant achievements by UK plc in that time.
Broken Britain and the Cost Of Living Crisis dominate the public conversation.'
There is a repeating pattern here. By 1997 much of the national infrastructure was crumbling. Schools being held up by emergency reinforcements, terrible public services provision, hospital waiting times a national disgrace, and a spiv class making it large as "marketisation" diverted cash away from the front line and into their pockets.
And here we are again. I see the Tories and fellow travellers are straight onto "youcan'tblametheToriesasStarmerwon'tbeabletochangeit". And "it" being the terrible mess created by the Tories.
So yes, we can blame them. And polls show that the public rightly blame them as well.
There are no easy solutions from here. No magic wand or silver bullet solution. But to start recovery you have to accept the reality of the situation. And the Tories simply can't. Which is why their removal - even if Labour don't possess a magic wand - will be a relief celebrated by millions.
Labour on Laura K wont commit to doing anything about it either
Blue Tories/ Red Tories same thing
Labour will leave kids in crumbling schools without replacing them?
Those straws you cling to as you justify why you're now a Tory are getting sillier than ever.
She was asked 6 times would she commit to rebuilding crumbling schools
She didnt
Your proclamation that Labour are not Tories is ridiculous
SKS even said they were
BTW I am a Socialist not a Tory thats why I am campaigning for the Greens
Gorgeous, looked like a nice day for the weather as well.
Gorgeous? Look at that all pollution spewing out of the exhaust.
Clagtastic.
Fortunately, the Worth Valley is outside of the Bradford ULEZ.
You should have seen what was being emitting by the steam loco.
"Diesel and Ale" trains are going to become far more common, sadly, due to the horrendous price of coal now.
My local heritage railway has to now buy on the global market from Poland and China and it's 5 times more expensive than it was 5 years ago.
The diesel and ale is all about attracting additional punters to the line. There must have been over 20 cranks who wouldn't have turned up if all the services were steam hauled. More tickets sold, more ale sold, more refreshments sold.
But yes, the price of coal is becoming a real issue.
Dumb question no doubt but can steam locomotives be converted to run on fuel oil?
If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.
Aberfan happened under a Labour government.
Factually true. But nonetheless an absolutely ridiculous and quite frankly offensive partisan post. I have never heard anyone party politicise the Aberfan disaster before today.
Are you actually aware of the circumstances around that tragedy?
Good morning
I agree with you, and as a someone who became a parent for the first time 8 days after Aberfan in October 1966 the memory is seared in our mind as we held our new born son close and grieved with our fellow Welsh parents suffering such a terrible loss of their child and in some cases children
It is not appropriate to politicise it
Exactly right.
@OnlyLivingBoy politicised it upthread. I then turned a mirror right back on it (to make that very point) and then @Mexicanpete cried blue murder.
It just shows how lacking in self-awareness and objectivity he is.
He did not. The lack of self awareness is that you think he did.
It makes not a blind bit of difference who was in power when Aberfan occurred. What matters is learning lessons from it. The fear is we might not.
He did. He cast a direct and prima facie claim that the Tories didn't care about the lives of state school kids, and then compared it to Aberfan.
It was extremely offensive.
The fact you can't see it only highlights your partisanship, and greatly lessens my respect for you.
Park the Aberfan comment which isn't relevant.
Tories Do Not Care about people who use state education and the NHS.
Do Not Care. If they did care they would not have put out that video this morning. Would not have slashed the maintenance and replacement budgets and refused to engage on the subject. Would not have slashed school budgets and forced teachers into having to pay out of their own pockets for food and clothing for kids arriving into school hungry and dirty.
And I could go on. The situation we find ourselves in is a choice. It is what Conservative politicians decide are their priorities and the things they need to focus on. We're on our what, our 5th SofS since last summer? They don't care, not a priority, not of interest to the remaining voters they are chasing.
If they cared about the lives of state school kids they would invest in it.
The cabinet merry go round is ridiculous. Lets stop pretending even a good manager (and these are rare in the commons) can just suddenly become suitable to lead massive and complex departments like education, defence, health, justice on the whim of the prime minister.
To be eligible for cabinet departmental roles an MP should need a minimum of 3 years experience as a minister, shadow minister or the relevant select committee.
This is a simple change that would significantly improve our governance at no cost.
I agree to a degree, except shadow cabinet isn't even close to the level of responsibility so is not really preparation for managing a department in reality. But is necessary as not everyone can be a minister first.
If we're going for the "here's what I did yesterday" thing:
There's a very long tale of government inefficiency, bureaucracy and dubious decision making hidden in this image but both the heather and the sun were out so I wasn't complaining.
[Edit: Sorry, no beer. And it seems I ought to have posted the full image elsewhere as the forum (quite rightly) downsizes]
There is a repeating pattern here. By 1997 much of the national infrastructure was crumbling. Schools being held up by emergency reinforcements, terrible public services provision, hospital waiting times a national disgrace, and a spiv class making it large as "marketisation" diverted cash away from the front line and into their pockets.
And here we are again. I see the Tories and fellow travellers are straight onto "youcan'tblametheToriesasStarmerwon'tbeabletochangeit". And "it" being the terrible mess created by the Tories.
So yes, we can blame them. And polls show that the public rightly blame them as well.
There are no easy solutions from here. No magic wand or silver bullet solution. But to start recovery you have to accept the reality of the situation. And the Tories simply can't. Which is why their removal - even if Labour don't possess a magic wand - will be a relief celebrated by millions.
Labour on Laura K wont commit to doing anything about it either
Blue Tories/ Red Tories same thing
Well I don´t support either party, but I can tell you that the Blue Tories must be removed from power at the earliest opportunity. While I appreciate that the Blue Tories want you to think that there is no difference/nothing can change/there´re all the same, the reality is that there is no hope at all if the Blues stay in office.
The country needs the catharsis of getting rid of these utter shower of shits, and doesn´t much care beyond that.
I agree completely with that. Labour may not be much use either, but they may be less corrupt and incompetent than the current shower. For the UK that will be a big upgrade!
There is a repeating pattern here. By 1997 much of the national infrastructure was crumbling. Schools being held up by emergency reinforcements, terrible public services provision, hospital waiting times a national disgrace, and a spiv class making it large as "marketisation" diverted cash away from the front line and into their pockets.
And here we are again. I see the Tories and fellow travellers are straight onto "youcan'tblametheToriesasStarmerwon'tbeabletochangeit". And "it" being the terrible mess created by the Tories.
So yes, we can blame them. And polls show that the public rightly blame them as well.
There are no easy solutions from here. No magic wand or silver bullet solution. But to start recovery you have to accept the reality of the situation. And the Tories simply can't. Which is why their removal - even if Labour don't possess a magic wand - will be a relief celebrated by millions.
Labour on Laura K wont commit to doing anything about it either
Blue Tories/ Red Tories same thing
Labour will leave kids in crumbling schools without replacing them?
Those straws you cling to as you justify why you're now a Tory are getting sillier than ever.
She was asked 6 times would she commit to rebuilding crumbling schools
She didnt
Your proclamation that Labour are not Tories is ridiculous
SKS even said they were
BTW I am a Socialist not a Tory thats why I am campaigning for the Greens
Which highlights the long-running misnomer of “green” party.
The country could do with having an actual Green Party that isn’t just a repository for disaffected Corbynites combined awkwardly with rural NIMBYs.
There is a repeating pattern here. By 1997 much of the national infrastructure was crumbling. Schools being held up by emergency reinforcements, terrible public services provision, hospital waiting times a national disgrace, and a spiv class making it large as "marketisation" diverted cash away from the front line and into their pockets.
And here we are again. I see the Tories and fellow travellers are straight onto "youcan'tblametheToriesasStarmerwon'tbeabletochangeit". And "it" being the terrible mess created by the Tories.
So yes, we can blame them. And polls show that the public rightly blame them as well.
There are no easy solutions from here. No magic wand or silver bullet solution. But to start recovery you have to accept the reality of the situation. And the Tories simply can't. Which is why their removal - even if Labour don't possess a magic wand - will be a relief celebrated by millions.
Labour on Laura K wont commit to doing anything about it either
Blue Tories/ Red Tories same thing
Well I don´t support either party, but I can tell you that the Blue Tories must be removed from power at the earliest opportunity. While I appreciate that the Blue Tories want you to think that there is no difference/nothing can change/there´re all the same, the reality is that there is no hope at all if the Blues stay in office.
The country needs the catharsis of getting rid of these utter shower of shits, and doesn´t much care beyond that.
I agree completely with that. Labour may not be much use either, but they may be less corrupt and incompetent than the current shower. For the UK that will be a big upgrade!
Under promise, over deliver. That’s (hopefully) the aim. But Laura K is ridiculously partisan in her interviews.
There is a repeating pattern here. By 1997 much of the national infrastructure was crumbling. Schools being held up by emergency reinforcements, terrible public services provision, hospital waiting times a national disgrace, and a spiv class making it large as "marketisation" diverted cash away from the front line and into their pockets.
And here we are again. I see the Tories and fellow travellers are straight onto "youcan'tblametheToriesasStarmerwon'tbeabletochangeit". And "it" being the terrible mess created by the Tories.
So yes, we can blame them. And polls show that the public rightly blame them as well.
There are no easy solutions from here. No magic wand or silver bullet solution. But to start recovery you have to accept the reality of the situation. And the Tories simply can't. Which is why their removal - even if Labour don't possess a magic wand - will be a relief celebrated by millions.
Labour on Laura K wont commit to doing anything about it either
Blue Tories/ Red Tories same thing
Labour will leave kids in crumbling schools without replacing them?
Those straws you cling to as you justify why you're now a Tory are getting sillier than ever.
typical Laura K, softball the tory minister (if they bother showing up) and then lambast the shadow minister for 15 minutes.
And simper and fawn over luvvie of the week there to plug their latest endeavour.
There is a repeating pattern here. By 1997 much of the national infrastructure was crumbling. Schools being held up by emergency reinforcements, terrible public services provision, hospital waiting times a national disgrace, and a spiv class making it large as "marketisation" diverted cash away from the front line and into their pockets.
And here we are again. I see the Tories and fellow travellers are straight onto "youcan'tblametheToriesasStarmerwon'tbeabletochangeit". And "it" being the terrible mess created by the Tories.
So yes, we can blame them. And polls show that the public rightly blame them as well.
There are no easy solutions from here. No magic wand or silver bullet solution. But to start recovery you have to accept the reality of the situation. And the Tories simply can't. Which is why their removal - even if Labour don't possess a magic wand - will be a relief celebrated by millions.
Labour on Laura K wont commit to doing anything about it either
Blue Tories/ Red Tories same thing
Labour will leave kids in crumbling schools without replacing them?
Those straws you cling to as you justify why you're now a Tory are getting sillier than ever.
She was asked 6 times would she commit to rebuilding crumbling schools
She didnt
Your proclamation that Labour are not Tories is ridiculous
SKS even said they were
BTW I am a Socialist not a Tory thats why I am campaigning for the Greens
You don't understand politics do you? The Tories are desperate to get Starmer caught in a bear trap. Unfunded spending pledges so that they can try and portray the opposition as the ones wasting your money.
The Tories have real world let these buildings crumble over the heads of children - just as they did before 1997. Blair also had tight caps on what he would commit to. Education, Education, Education wasn't constrained in practice by that, nor will Break Down The Barriers To Opportunity At Every Stage. The notion that a new government won't fix this is laughable. A Labour SofS won't dismiss away the reports of dangerous schools as Zahawi did and the 4 who have followed him this last year.
You're voting Green to hope that you get a Tory MP and a Tory government so that you can chortle about how only True Socialism is the way forward. Its no different to any of the other hard left scab groups like TUSC or NHA or whatever. Vote purity hoping for Tory. Because people may as well have the proper Tories to best condition them against capitalism and thus towards socialism, right comrade?
I note in Lord Ashcroft's latest poll that 75% of respondents think that public services have got worse in the past decade, while a handsome 3% think they have got better. Presumably the remaining 22% don't use them or something.
That sounds terminal to me, particularly with the tax burden so high, and Sunak can't fix that in a year or so.
On topic, the RAAC story could easily have broken under the Blair/Brown administration - it is one of those "events", and doesn't reflect at all on the competence of the incumbent administration - but it will cause more political problems for the Conservatives because it's in the twilight of its period of office, and it helpfully plays into that crumbling narrative.
I have no doubt funding will be made available, quickly, to make any school to make it safe - but I expect a lot of temporary building closures simply because we won't have enough structural engineers to remediate them all at once.
Though the slowdown of the schools rebuilding programme under the Conservatives is how RAAC has shifted from a problem to a crisis.
RAAC was a perfectly reasonable material to use to build for a 30 year lifespan. What is inexcusable is to fail to plan replace those schools, hospitals and other buildings after those 30 years were up.
It's completely ridiculous to build something that only has a 30 year shelf life though. That's the mindset behind a lot of terrible decision making in the UK. Let me fix today's problems for today and let future generations worry about the future.
If you were going to build for that shelf life anyway, at least build in wood which would be cheaper and easier to replace.
Prefabricated? Yes, it would make sense. Basically WW1 and WW2 army huts.
Our village hall, a WW1 army hut, will have its centenary next year (and presumably was originally fabricated pre-1924). I'm not saying that it doesn't have its downsides in terms of insulation, maintenance, etc., but it's still perfectly serviceable after 100 years (and doesn't require anything like as much fund-raising as surrounding village halls which have been built at great expense).
If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.
Aberfan happened under a Labour government.
Factually true. But nonetheless an absolutely ridiculous and quite frankly offensive partisan post. I have never heard anyone party politicise the Aberfan disaster before today.
Are you actually aware of the circumstances around that tragedy?
What I find fascinating about Aberfan is this -
The moment the NCB came into existence, the appointees - socialists, trade union officials and others of like kind - who ran it adopted the behaviours of Victorian mine owners.
The long slow build up to the disaster, where they adopted the previous policy of managing the slag heaps. The continuation, and worsening of he policy. The reaction to the disaster. The protection of the guilty.
Truly
The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Read the story. The exact same attitudes and actions are there in all the scandals we have talked of recently. The Post Office scandal especially comes to mind, for some reason.
It’s not party political. And until we change some things (see @Cyclefree ‘s various headers) they will continue.
There is a repeating pattern here. By 1997 much of the national infrastructure was crumbling. Schools being held up by emergency reinforcements, terrible public services provision, hospital waiting times a national disgrace, and a spiv class making it large as "marketisation" diverted cash away from the front line and into their pockets.
And here we are again. I see the Tories and fellow travellers are straight onto "youcan'tblametheToriesasStarmerwon'tbeabletochangeit". And "it" being the terrible mess created by the Tories.
So yes, we can blame them. And polls show that the public rightly blame them as well.
There are no easy solutions from here. No magic wand or silver bullet solution. But to start recovery you have to accept the reality of the situation. And the Tories simply can't. Which is why their removal - even if Labour don't possess a magic wand - will be a relief celebrated by millions.
Labour on Laura K wont commit to doing anything about it either
Blue Tories/ Red Tories same thing
Well I don´t support either party, but I can tell you that the Blue Tories must be removed from power at the earliest opportunity. While I appreciate that the Blue Tories want you to think that there is no difference/nothing can change/there´re all the same, the reality is that there is no hope at all if the Blues stay in office.
The country needs the catharsis of getting rid of these utter shower of shits, and doesn´t much care beyond that.
Eh? Afaics the Blue Tories never stop going on about the difference between them and woke, crypto EUrophile, refugee loving, motorist hating, high taxing defenders of the benefit scrounger Labour, while Labour keep insisting that they're none of those things.
If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.
Aberfan happened under a Labour government.
Factually true. But nonetheless an absolutely ridiculous and quite frankly offensive partisan post. I have never heard anyone party politicise the Aberfan disaster before today.
Are you actually aware of the circumstances around that tragedy?
What I find fascinating about Aberfan is this -
The moment the NCB came into existence, the appointees - socialists, trade union officials and others of like kind - who ran it adopted the behaviours of Victorian mine owners.
The long slow build up to the disaster, where they adopted the previous policy of managing the slag heaps. The continuation, and worsening of he policy. The reaction to the disaster. The protection of the guilty.
Truly
The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Read the story. The exact same attitudes and actions are there in all the scandals we have talked of recently. The Post Office scandal especially comes to mind, for some reason.
It’s not party political. And until we change some things (see @Cyclefree ‘s various headers) they will continue.
I agree but what will change and what will trigger it ?
I just cannot see it. I don’t doubt Starmer is a decent person but I have no doubt Labour, if they hold power for a prolonged period of time, will turn out to be just as venal, self serving and corrupt as the current lot.
After all that is exactly what happened with the Blair/Brown regime.
If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.
Aberfan happened under a Labour government.
Factually true. But nonetheless an absolutely ridiculous and quite frankly offensive partisan post. I have never heard anyone party politicise the Aberfan disaster before today.
Are you actually aware of the circumstances around that tragedy?
Good morning
I agree with you, and as a someone who became a parent for the first time 8 days after Aberfan in October 1966 the memory is seared in our mind as we held our new born son close and grieved with our fellow Welsh parents suffering such a terrible loss of their child and in some cases children
It is not appropriate to politicise it
Exactly right.
@OnlyLivingBoy politicised it upthread. I then turned a mirror right back on it (to make that very point) and then @Mexicanpete cried blue murder.
It just shows how lacking in self-awareness and objectivity he is.
He did not. The lack of self awareness is that you think he did.
It makes not a blind bit of difference who was in power when Aberfan occurred. What matters is learning lessons from it. The fear is we might not.
He did. He cast a direct and prima facie claim that the Tories didn't care about the lives of state school kids, and then compared it to Aberfan.
It was extremely offensive.
The fact you can't see it only highlights your partisanship, and greatly lessens my respect for you.
Well seeing as I am not a Labour supporter and never have been that makes no sense at all as I can't be making a partisan post in favour of Labour can I.
But I can see the warning of ignoring past events is a reasonable concern. All @OnlyLivingBoy did was not unreasonably raise the issue of not wanting another Aberfan. It doesn't matter who you support to support that concern.
I mean what do you really think the reaction will be if the govt blusters and a ceiling comes down on a school assembly? Do you think a response of 'Well Labour were in Govt when Aberfan happened' will be helpful?
Gorgeous, looked like a nice day for the weather as well.
Gorgeous? Look at that all pollution spewing out of the exhaust.
Clagtastic.
Fortunately, the Worth Valley is outside of the Bradford ULEZ.
You should have seen what was being emitting by the steam loco.
"Diesel and Ale" trains are going to become far more common, sadly, due to the horrendous price of coal now.
My local heritage railway has to now buy on the global market from Poland and China and it's 5 times more expensive than it was 5 years ago.
The diesel and ale is all about attracting additional punters to the line. There must have been over 20 cranks who wouldn't have turned up if all the services were steam hauled. More tickets sold, more ale sold, more refreshments sold.
But yes, the price of coal is becoming a real issue.
Dumb question no doubt but can steam locomotives be converted to run on fuel oil?
Maybe - the history of conversions suggests it would a right pain.
Certifying the system as safe would be a piece of work. Quite a few people forget that a boiler is a large bomb waiting for it’s apotheosis.
If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.
Aberfan happened under a Labour government.
Factually true. But nonetheless an absolutely ridiculous and quite frankly offensive partisan post. I have never heard anyone party politicise the Aberfan disaster before today.
Are you actually aware of the circumstances around that tragedy?
What I find fascinating about Aberfan is this -
The moment the NCB came into existence, the appointees - socialists, trade union officials and others of like kind - who ran it adopted the behaviours of Victorian mine owners.
The long slow build up to the disaster, where they adopted the previous policy of managing the slag heaps. The continuation, and worsening of he policy. The reaction to the disaster. The protection of the guilty.
Truly
The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Read the story. The exact same attitudes and actions are there in all the scandals we have talked of recently. The Post Office scandal especially comes to mind, for some reason.
It’s not party political. And until we change some things (see @Cyclefree ‘s various headers) they will continue.
There is a repeating pattern here. By 1997 much of the national infrastructure was crumbling. Schools being held up by emergency reinforcements, terrible public services provision, hospital waiting times a national disgrace, and a spiv class making it large as "marketisation" diverted cash away from the front line and into their pockets.
And here we are again. I see the Tories and fellow travellers are straight onto "youcan'tblametheToriesasStarmerwon'tbeabletochangeit". And "it" being the terrible mess created by the Tories.
So yes, we can blame them. And polls show that the public rightly blame them as well.
There are no easy solutions from here. No magic wand or silver bullet solution. But to start recovery you have to accept the reality of the situation. And the Tories simply can't. Which is why their removal - even if Labour don't possess a magic wand - will be a relief celebrated by millions.
Labour on Laura K wont commit to doing anything about it either
Blue Tories/ Red Tories same thing
Labour will leave kids in crumbling schools without replacing them?
Those straws you cling to as you justify why you're now a Tory are getting sillier than ever.
She was asked 6 times would she commit to rebuilding crumbling schools
She didnt
Your proclamation that Labour are not Tories is ridiculous
SKS even said they were
BTW I am a Socialist not a Tory thats why I am campaigning for the Greens
Well there's the problem for the Greens. Socialist entryists pushing aside the Environmentalists.
There is a repeating pattern here. By 1997 much of the national infrastructure was crumbling. Schools being held up by emergency reinforcements, terrible public services provision, hospital waiting times a national disgrace, and a spiv class making it large as "marketisation" diverted cash away from the front line and into their pockets.
And here we are again. I see the Tories and fellow travellers are straight onto "youcan'tblametheToriesasStarmerwon'tbeabletochangeit". And "it" being the terrible mess created by the Tories.
So yes, we can blame them. And polls show that the public rightly blame them as well.
There are no easy solutions from here. No magic wand or silver bullet solution. But to start recovery you have to accept the reality of the situation. And the Tories simply can't. Which is why their removal - even if Labour don't possess a magic wand - will be a relief celebrated by millions.
Labour on Laura K wont commit to doing anything about it either
Blue Tories/ Red Tories same thing
Well I don´t support either party, but I can tell you that the Blue Tories must be removed from power at the earliest opportunity. While I appreciate that the Blue Tories want you to think that there is no difference/nothing can change/there´re all the same, the reality is that there is no hope at all if the Blues stay in office.
The country needs the catharsis of getting rid of these utter shower of shits, and doesn´t much care beyond that.
If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.
Aberfan happened under a Labour government.
Factually true. But nonetheless an absolutely ridiculous and quite frankly offensive partisan post. I have never heard anyone party politicise the Aberfan disaster before today.
Are you actually aware of the circumstances around that tragedy?
What I find fascinating about Aberfan is this -
The moment the NCB came into existence, the appointees - socialists, trade union officials and others of like kind - who ran it adopted the behaviours of Victorian mine owners.
The long slow build up to the disaster, where they adopted the previous policy of managing the slag heaps. The continuation, and worsening of he policy. The reaction to the disaster. The protection of the guilty.
Truly
The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Read the story. The exact same attitudes and actions are there in all the scandals we have talked of recently. The Post Office scandal especially comes to mind, for some reason.
It’s not party political. And until we change some things (see @Cyclefree ‘s various headers) they will continue.
I agree but what will change and what will trigger it ?
I just cannot see it. I don’t doubt Starmer is a decent person but I have no doubt Labour, if they hold power for a prolonged period of time, will turn out to be just as venal, self serving and corrupt as the current lot.
After all that is exactly what happened with the Blair/Brown regime.
What transcends party politics is that since at least the 1970s we have drifted into an absolute state of managed decay. I know I keep pointing to what I saw in 1996 as an example of this, but it happened then and its happening again now. That Labour managed to replace a lot of schools and hospitals is Good. Sadly a lot of what was built on their watch was just as half-baked and shoddy as the crumbling facilities they replaced.
There is a British disease of spending as little money as possible and then wondering why what we have is so poor. A basic lack of comprehension that not spending money on x is the same as not spending money at all.
We're seeing this brought to life in both education and the NHS. These schools (and some hospitals) needed to be replaced. But that has cost and the likes of Zahawi don't want to spend the money. But there is also cost in not spending that money. More cost - as not only will replacement schools need to be built anyway, but the disruption cost and the emergency costs will be added on top.
Until politicians actually talk to people about this we will remain stuck. Thatcher's simplistic comparison to a household budget appears to have stuck and that is a big part of the problem, but nobody of either party have tried to change this false narrative.
Gorgeous, looked like a nice day for the weather as well.
Gorgeous? Look at that all pollution spewing out of the exhaust.
Clagtastic.
Fortunately, the Worth Valley is outside of the Bradford ULEZ.
You should have seen what was being emitting by the steam loco.
"Diesel and Ale" trains are going to become far more common, sadly, due to the horrendous price of coal now.
My local heritage railway has to now buy on the global market from Poland and China and it's 5 times more expensive than it was 5 years ago.
The diesel and ale is all about attracting additional punters to the line. There must have been over 20 cranks who wouldn't have turned up if all the services were steam hauled. More tickets sold, more ale sold, more refreshments sold.
But yes, the price of coal is becoming a real issue.
Dumb question no doubt but can steam locomotives be converted to run on fuel oil?
You do get oil fired steam locos, but converting an existing loco from coal to oil is, I imagine, quite a major job.
There have been trials of various coal substitutes - briquettes made from a mix of coal dust, biochar and whatever. Some results have been positive, but I don’t think that they have nailed it yet.
If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.
Aberfan happened under a Labour government.
Factually true. But nonetheless an absolutely ridiculous and quite frankly offensive partisan post. I have never heard anyone party politicise the Aberfan disaster before today.
Are you actually aware of the circumstances around that tragedy?
What I find fascinating about Aberfan is this -
The moment the NCB came into existence, the appointees - socialists, trade union officials and others of like kind - who ran it adopted the behaviours of Victorian mine owners.
The long slow build up to the disaster, where they adopted the previous policy of managing the slag heaps. The continuation, and worsening of he policy. The reaction to the disaster. The protection of the guilty.
Truly
The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Read the story. The exact same attitudes and actions are there in all the scandals we have talked of recently. The Post Office scandal especially comes to mind, for some reason.
It’s not party political. And until we change some things (see @Cyclefree ‘s various headers) they will continue.
It is not just the Post Office either - but the blood contamination scandal, various NHS scandals and so on.
Yes - the habit will only be broken when we stop the nonsense of protecting The Proper People.
In the Kids Company case, the *judge* said that it would be iniquitous to hold the legally responsible trustees of the charity legally responsible for their voluntarily acquired legal responsibility.
Because it might discourage Proper People becoming a trustee of charities. And Alan Renta-yob (for one) was far to busy, naturally, to actually do the job.
What transcends party politics is that since at least the 1970s we have drifted into an absolute state of managed decay. I know I keep pointing to what I saw in 1996 as an example of this, but it happened then and its happening again now. That Labour managed to replace a lot of schools and hospitals is Good. Sadly a lot of what was built on their watch was just as half-baked and shoddy as the crumbling facilities they replaced.
There is a British disease of spending as little money as possible and then wondering why what we have is so poor. A basic lack of comprehension that not spending money on x is the same as not spending money at all.
We're seeing this brought to life in both education and the NHS. These schools (and some hospitals) needed to be replaced. But that has cost and the likes of Zahawi don't want to spend the money. But there is also cost in not spending that money. More cost - as not only will replacement schools need to be built anyway, but the disruption cost and the emergency costs will be added on top.
Until politicians actually talk to people about this we will remain stuck. Thatcher's simplistic comparison to a household budget appears to have stuck and that is a big part of the problem, but nobody of either party have tried to change this false narrative.
Don’t worry - the *cost* of the shoddy buildings was world class.
A relative who runs a building business, pointed out that the price per square meter for the new schools (in the early 2000s) handily exceeded the price he charged for digging and fitting out luxury basements as part of whole house rip outs for 1% in Chelsea. The most expensive kind of construction there is…
And the school designs didn’t have zero chlorine 15m swimming pools, with total water reclamation in their basements.
Mind you, one client did ask if they could do the room from Goldfinger. The answer was that getting sign off off on a floor sliding open with no railing, a large billiard table driving round the room etc. was impossible. So we are the nation who can’t.
Gorgeous, looked like a nice day for the weather as well.
Gorgeous? Look at that all pollution spewing out of the exhaust.
Clagtastic.
Fortunately, the Worth Valley is outside of the Bradford ULEZ.
You should have seen what was being emitting by the steam loco.
"Diesel and Ale" trains are going to become far more common, sadly, due to the horrendous price of coal now.
My local heritage railway has to now buy on the global market from Poland and China and it's 5 times more expensive than it was 5 years ago.
The diesel and ale is all about attracting additional punters to the line. There must have been over 20 cranks who wouldn't have turned up if all the services were steam hauled. More tickets sold, more ale sold, more refreshments sold.
But yes, the price of coal is becoming a real issue.
Dumb question no doubt but can steam locomotives be converted to run on fuel oil?
Not a dumb question, and yes is the answer. I rode the Lynton and Barnestaple last week from Woody Bay, powered by just this method.
Gorgeous, looked like a nice day for the weather as well.
Gorgeous? Look at that all pollution spewing out of the exhaust.
Clagtastic.
Fortunately, the Worth Valley is outside of the Bradford ULEZ.
You should have seen what was being emitting by the steam loco.
"Diesel and Ale" trains are going to become far more common, sadly, due to the horrendous price of coal now.
My local heritage railway has to now buy on the global market from Poland and China and it's 5 times more expensive than it was 5 years ago.
The diesel and ale is all about attracting additional punters to the line. There must have been over 20 cranks who wouldn't have turned up if all the services were steam hauled. More tickets sold, more ale sold, more refreshments sold.
But yes, the price of coal is becoming a real issue.
Dumb question no doubt but can steam locomotives be converted to run on fuel oil?
You do get oil fired steam locos, but converting an existing loco from coal to oil is, I imagine, quite a major job.
There have been trials of various coal substitutes - briquettes made from a mix of coal dust, biochar and whatever. Some results have been positive, but I don’t think that they have nailed it yet.
I’d be pretty damn careful doing that. The history of boilers is er…. Interesting. There’s a reason that the earliest industrial health and safety rules were for boilers. The large piles of flash cooked boilermen, largely.
What transcends party politics is that since at least the 1970s we have drifted into an absolute state of managed decay. I know I keep pointing to what I saw in 1996 as an example of this, but it happened then and its happening again now. That Labour managed to replace a lot of schools and hospitals is Good. Sadly a lot of what was built on their watch was just as half-baked and shoddy as the crumbling facilities they replaced.
There is a British disease of spending as little money as possible and then wondering why what we have is so poor. A basic lack of comprehension that not spending money on x is the same as not spending money at all.
We're seeing this brought to life in both education and the NHS. These schools (and some hospitals) needed to be replaced. But that has cost and the likes of Zahawi don't want to spend the money. But there is also cost in not spending that money. More cost - as not only will replacement schools need to be built anyway, but the disruption cost and the emergency costs will be added on top.
Until politicians actually talk to people about this we will remain stuck. Thatcher's simplistic comparison to a household budget appears to have stuck and that is a big part of the problem, but nobody of either party have tried to change this false narrative.
Don’t worry - the *cost* of the shoddy buildings was world class.
A relative who runs a building business, pointed out that the price per square meter for the new schools (in the early 2000s) handily exceeded the price he charged for digging and fitting out luxury basements as part of whole house rip outs for 1% in Chelsea. The most expensive kind of construction there is…
And the school designs didn’t have zero chlorine 15m swimming pools, with total water reclamation in their basements.
Mind you, one client did ask if they could do the room from Goldfinger. The answer was that getting sign off off on a floor sliding open with no railing, a large billiard table driving round the room etc. was impossible. So we are the nation who can’t.
Isn't this the point I keep making? We're spending ludicrous amounts of money to build low cost shoddy shite. An ocean of cash lining people's pockets.
If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.
Aberfan happened under a Labour government.
Factually true. But nonetheless an absolutely ridiculous and quite frankly offensive partisan post. I have never heard anyone party politicise the Aberfan disaster before today.
Are you actually aware of the circumstances around that tragedy?
Good morning
I agree with you, and as a someone who became a parent for the first time 8 days after Aberfan in October 1966 the memory is seared in our mind as we held our new born son close and grieved with our fellow Welsh parents suffering such a terrible loss of their child and in some cases children
It is not appropriate to politicise it
Exactly right.
@OnlyLivingBoy politicised it upthread. I then turned a mirror right back on it (to make that very point) and then @Mexicanpete cried blue murder.
It just shows how lacking in self-awareness and objectivity he is.
He did not. The lack of self awareness is that you think he did.
It makes not a blind bit of difference who was in power when Aberfan occurred. What matters is learning lessons from it. The fear is we might not.
He did. He cast a direct and prima facie claim that the Tories didn't care about the lives of state school kids, and then compared it to Aberfan.
It was extremely offensive.
The fact you can't see it only highlights your partisanship, and greatly lessens my respect for you.
Park the Aberfan comment which isn't relevant.
Tories Do Not Care about people who use state education and the NHS.
Do Not Care. If they did care they would not have put out that video this morning. Would not have slashed the maintenance and replacement budgets and refused to engage on the subject. Would not have slashed school budgets and forced teachers into having to pay out of their own pockets for food and clothing for kids arriving into school hungry and dirty.
And I could go on. The situation we find ourselves in is a choice. It is what Conservative politicians decide are their priorities and the things they need to focus on. We're on our what, our 5th SofS since last summer? They don't care, not a priority, not of interest to the remaining voters they are chasing.
If they cared about the lives of state school kids they would invest in it.
They equate private schools with 'aspiration'. The flipside, unspoken but there, is that state schools are for people who lack this sainted attribute. Those who fall short. Not wealthy and successful enough to send their kids private. Or can afford it but don't care enough about their kids education to do it. If I could choose just one widespread pernicious sentiment to get rid off and thus improve life in the UK this one would be a real contender.
If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.
Aberfan happened under a Labour government.
Factually true. But nonetheless an absolutely ridiculous and quite frankly offensive partisan post. I have never heard anyone party politicise the Aberfan disaster before today.
Are you actually aware of the circumstances around that tragedy?
What I find fascinating about Aberfan is this -
The moment the NCB came into existence, the appointees - socialists, trade union officials and others of like kind - who ran it adopted the behaviours of Victorian mine owners.
The long slow build up to the disaster, where they adopted the previous policy of managing the slag heaps. The continuation, and worsening of he policy. The reaction to the disaster. The protection of the guilty.
Truly
The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Read the story. The exact same attitudes and actions are there in all the scandals we have talked of recently. The Post Office scandal especially comes to mind, for some reason.
It’s not party political. And until we change some things (see @Cyclefree ‘s various headers) they will continue.
I agree but what will change and what will trigger it ?
I just cannot see it. I don’t doubt Starmer is a decent person but I have no doubt Labour, if they hold power for a prolonged period of time, will turn out to be just as venal, self serving and corrupt as the current lot.
After all that is exactly what happened with the Blair/Brown regime.
There were some improvements as well, tbf
As there were with the Major govt from 92-97. Still mired in sleaze.
Does sleaze and corruption not matter as long as there are some improvements ?
What transcends party politics is that since at least the 1970s we have drifted into an absolute state of managed decay. I know I keep pointing to what I saw in 1996 as an example of this, but it happened then and its happening again now. That Labour managed to replace a lot of schools and hospitals is Good. Sadly a lot of what was built on their watch was just as half-baked and shoddy as the crumbling facilities they replaced.
There is a British disease of spending as little money as possible and then wondering why what we have is so poor. A basic lack of comprehension that not spending money on x is the same as not spending money at all.
We're seeing this brought to life in both education and the NHS. These schools (and some hospitals) needed to be replaced. But that has cost and the likes of Zahawi don't want to spend the money. But there is also cost in not spending that money. More cost - as not only will replacement schools need to be built anyway, but the disruption cost and the emergency costs will be added on top.
Until politicians actually talk to people about this we will remain stuck. Thatcher's simplistic comparison to a household budget appears to have stuck and that is a big part of the problem, but nobody of either party have tried to change this false narrative.
Don’t worry - the *cost* of the shoddy buildings was world class.
A relative who runs a building business, pointed out that the price per square meter for the new schools (in the early 2000s) handily exceeded the price he charged for digging and fitting out luxury basements as part of whole house rip outs for 1% in Chelsea. The most expensive kind of construction there is…
And the school designs didn’t have zero chlorine 15m swimming pools, with total water reclamation in their basements.
Mind you, one client did ask if they could do the room from Goldfinger. The answer was that getting sign off off on a floor sliding open with no railing, a large billiard table driving round the room etc. was impossible. So we are the nation who can’t.
The HateNewBuild twitter and YouTube feed never ceases to surprise and shock as to just how shit the standards of building are in this country for massively overpriced shitholes.
What transcends party politics is that since at least the 1970s we have drifted into an absolute state of managed decay. I know I keep pointing to what I saw in 1996 as an example of this, but it happened then and its happening again now. That Labour managed to replace a lot of schools and hospitals is Good. Sadly a lot of what was built on their watch was just as half-baked and shoddy as the crumbling facilities they replaced.
There is a British disease of spending as little money as possible and then wondering why what we have is so poor. A basic lack of comprehension that not spending money on x is the same as not spending money at all.
We're seeing this brought to life in both education and the NHS. These schools (and some hospitals) needed to be replaced. But that has cost and the likes of Zahawi don't want to spend the money. But there is also cost in not spending that money. More cost - as not only will replacement schools need to be built anyway, but the disruption cost and the emergency costs will be added on top.
Until politicians actually talk to people about this we will remain stuck. Thatcher's simplistic comparison to a household budget appears to have stuck and that is a big part of the problem, but nobody of either party have tried to change this false narrative.
Don’t worry - the *cost* of the shoddy buildings was world class.
A relative who runs a building business, pointed out that the price per square meter for the new schools (in the early 2000s) handily exceeded the price he charged for digging and fitting out luxury basements as part of whole house rip outs for 1% in Chelsea. The most expensive kind of construction there is…
And the school designs didn’t have zero chlorine 15m swimming pools, with total water reclamation in their basements.
Mind you, one client did ask if they could do the room from Goldfinger. The answer was that getting sign off off on a floor sliding open with no railing, a large billiard table driving round the room etc. was impossible. So we are the nation who can’t.
The HateNewBuild twitter and YouTube feed never ceases to surprise and shock as to just how shit the standards of building are in this country for massively overpriced shitholes.
What transcends party politics is that since at least the 1970s we have drifted into an absolute state of managed decay. I know I keep pointing to what I saw in 1996 as an example of this, but it happened then and its happening again now. That Labour managed to replace a lot of schools and hospitals is Good. Sadly a lot of what was built on their watch was just as half-baked and shoddy as the crumbling facilities they replaced.
There is a British disease of spending as little money as possible and then wondering why what we have is so poor. A basic lack of comprehension that not spending money on x is the same as not spending money at all.
We're seeing this brought to life in both education and the NHS. These schools (and some hospitals) needed to be replaced. But that has cost and the likes of Zahawi don't want to spend the money. But there is also cost in not spending that money. More cost - as not only will replacement schools need to be built anyway, but the disruption cost and the emergency costs will be added on top.
Until politicians actually talk to people about this we will remain stuck. Thatcher's simplistic comparison to a household budget appears to have stuck and that is a big part of the problem, but nobody of either party have tried to change this false narrative.
Don’t worry - the *cost* of the shoddy buildings was world class.
A relative who runs a building business, pointed out that the price per square meter for the new schools (in the early 2000s) handily exceeded the price he charged for digging and fitting out luxury basements as part of whole house rip outs for 1% in Chelsea. The most expensive kind of construction there is…
And the school designs didn’t have zero chlorine 15m swimming pools, with total water reclamation in their basements.
Mind you, one client did ask if they could do the room from Goldfinger. The answer was that getting sign off off on a floor sliding open with no railing, a large billiard table driving round the room etc. was impossible. So we are the nation who can’t.
Isn't this the point I keep making? We're spending ludicrous amounts of money to build low cost shoddy shite. An ocean of cash lining people's pockets.
It’s to do with how public contracts are structured. The same thing occurs around the world. The American space launch industry is a fascinating example.
Due to historic problems with shoddy materials, cheating, fraud, etc very special guidelines were created for contracts. These are vast and unwieldy.
Profit is often restricted - yes, in America, a company can be taken to court for exceeding their profit on a government contract.
So you have have slow, vast contractually arrangements
Next we add a huge amount of oversight and paperwork of the bullshit kind. Did you know that you are supposed prepare a safety case for all construction projects in the U.K. asking deep questions such as “have you considered the possibility of people slipping on dust?”. This add s about 4% to every contract it’s applied to. Get Trigger and his broom, FFS.
Next we have layering. A contract is subcontracted multiple times to create a pyramid. Each layer can make just so much profit. But in summation a huge chunk of the pyramid is profit. For the final touch - a conglomerate own multiple players at multiple levels in the pyramid.
Layering also helps politically - to spread the government money like butter.
This all adds up to vast cost, failed projects and shit delivered. But all the people in the pyramid are happy.
Google Ares I - a rocket that a rocket geek* could tell you couldn’t work or be built as planned.
*I spotted the fatal flaw, along with many other people, in minutes of the announcement.
On topic, the RAAC story could easily have broken under the Blair/Brown administration - it is one of those "events", and doesn't reflect at all on the competence of the incumbent administration - but it will cause more political problems for the Conservatives because it's in the twilight of its period of office, and it helpfully plays into that crumbling narrative.
I have no doubt funding will be made available, quickly, to make any school to make it safe - but I expect a lot of temporary building closures simply because we won't have enough structural engineers to remediate them all at once.
Though the slowdown of the schools rebuilding programme under the Conservatives is how RAAC has shifted from a problem to a crisis.
RAAC was a perfectly reasonable material to use to build for a 30 year lifespan. What is inexcusable is to fail to plan replace those schools, hospitals and other buildings after those 30 years were up.
It's completely ridiculous to build something that only has a 30 year shelf life though. That's the mindset behind a lot of terrible decision making in the UK. Let me fix today's problems for today and let future generations worry about the future.
If you were going to build for that shelf life anyway, at least build in wood which would be cheaper and easier to replace.
Prefabricated? Yes, it would make sense. Basically WW1 and WW2 army huts.
There's nowt wrong with modern timber framed buildings. They're a little bit vulnerable to fire during the construction phase but once completed (and as long as future trades stick to the strict compartmentalisation systems and don't go drilling holes everywhere) they're as safe as any building and far cheaper and quicker to construct . I know most new Premier Inns have been TF for about a decade.
What transcends party politics is that since at least the 1970s we have drifted into an absolute state of managed decay. I know I keep pointing to what I saw in 1996 as an example of this, but it happened then and its happening again now. That Labour managed to replace a lot of schools and hospitals is Good. Sadly a lot of what was built on their watch was just as half-baked and shoddy as the crumbling facilities they replaced.
There is a British disease of spending as little money as possible and then wondering why what we have is so poor. A basic lack of comprehension that not spending money on x is the same as not spending money at all.
We're seeing this brought to life in both education and the NHS. These schools (and some hospitals) needed to be replaced. But that has cost and the likes of Zahawi don't want to spend the money. But there is also cost in not spending that money. More cost - as not only will replacement schools need to be built anyway, but the disruption cost and the emergency costs will be added on top.
Until politicians actually talk to people about this we will remain stuck. Thatcher's simplistic comparison to a household budget appears to have stuck and that is a big part of the problem, but nobody of either party have tried to change this false narrative.
Don’t worry - the *cost* of the shoddy buildings was world class.
A relative who runs a building business, pointed out that the price per square meter for the new schools (in the early 2000s) handily exceeded the price he charged for digging and fitting out luxury basements as part of whole house rip outs for 1% in Chelsea. The most expensive kind of construction there is…
And the school designs didn’t have zero chlorine 15m swimming pools, with total water reclamation in their basements.
Mind you, one client did ask if they could do the room from Goldfinger. The answer was that getting sign off off on a floor sliding open with no railing, a large billiard table driving round the room etc. was impossible. So we are the nation who can’t.
Isn't this the point I keep making? We're spending ludicrous amounts of money to build low cost shoddy shite. An ocean of cash lining people's pockets.
I think most are in agreement with that statement I know I am of the same mind. However how does this happen? I know my thought is there is a problem in the civil servants running the various departments. While a minister approves a new school I very much doubt they are in a position to be able to gauge whether the plans presented and the bids received are value for money. I suspect therefore the problem is in the specification and bidding process.
From dealings I have had with civil servants in both the DfT and DoH on various projects they seem to have little clue how to define a project, and decide if a bid is good value. Then once the project is underway they keep wanting to make changes. Look there for the problem in my view.
If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.
Aberfan happened under a Labour government.
Factually true. But nonetheless an absolutely ridiculous and quite frankly offensive partisan post. I have never heard anyone party politicise the Aberfan disaster before today.
Are you actually aware of the circumstances around that tragedy?
Good morning
I agree with you, and as a someone who became a parent for the first time 8 days after Aberfan in October 1966 the memory is seared in our mind as we held our new born son close and grieved with our fellow Welsh parents suffering such a terrible loss of their child and in some cases children
It is not appropriate to politicise it
Exactly right.
@OnlyLivingBoy politicised it upthread. I then turned a mirror right back on it (to make that very point) and then @Mexicanpete cried blue murder.
It just shows how lacking in self-awareness and objectivity he is.
He did not. The lack of self awareness is that you think he did.
It makes not a blind bit of difference who was in power when Aberfan occurred. What matters is learning lessons from it. The fear is we might not.
He did. He cast a direct and prima facie claim that the Tories didn't care about the lives of state school kids, and then compared it to Aberfan.
It was extremely offensive.
The fact you can't see it only highlights your partisanship, and greatly lessens my respect for you.
No I didn't. That's a bare faced lie. Please retract.
Bizarre that they haven’t just stopped people from changing the name/license number on the reservation once it has been made. That would stop this overnight.
What transcends party politics is that since at least the 1970s we have drifted into an absolute state of managed decay. I know I keep pointing to what I saw in 1996 as an example of this, but it happened then and its happening again now. That Labour managed to replace a lot of schools and hospitals is Good. Sadly a lot of what was built on their watch was just as half-baked and shoddy as the crumbling facilities they replaced.
There is a British disease of spending as little money as possible and then wondering why what we have is so poor. A basic lack of comprehension that not spending money on x is the same as not spending money at all.
We're seeing this brought to life in both education and the NHS. These schools (and some hospitals) needed to be replaced. But that has cost and the likes of Zahawi don't want to spend the money. But there is also cost in not spending that money. More cost - as not only will replacement schools need to be built anyway, but the disruption cost and the emergency costs will be added on top.
Until politicians actually talk to people about this we will remain stuck. Thatcher's simplistic comparison to a household budget appears to have stuck and that is a big part of the problem, but nobody of either party have tried to change this false narrative.
Don’t worry - the *cost* of the shoddy buildings was world class.
A relative who runs a building business, pointed out that the price per square meter for the new schools (in the early 2000s) handily exceeded the price he charged for digging and fitting out luxury basements as part of whole house rip outs for 1% in Chelsea. The most expensive kind of construction there is…
And the school designs didn’t have zero chlorine 15m swimming pools, with total water reclamation in their basements.
Mind you, one client did ask if they could do the room from Goldfinger. The answer was that getting sign off off on a floor sliding open with no railing, a large billiard table driving round the room etc. was impossible. So we are the nation who can’t.
The HateNewBuild twitter and YouTube feed never ceases to surprise and shock as to just how shit the standards of building are in this country for massively overpriced shitholes.
So how do we cut the spivs out?
These are properties built by large housebuilders.
Set decent standards and Regulate properly, don’t sign off shoddy workmanship.
I am not an expert in this industry this is just what I gleaned from watching videos on it. Others here would be better placed to advise.
If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.
Aberfan happened under a Labour government.
Factually true. But nonetheless an absolutely ridiculous and quite frankly offensive partisan post. I have never heard anyone party politicise the Aberfan disaster before today.
Are you actually aware of the circumstances around that tragedy?
What I find fascinating about Aberfan is this -
The moment the NCB came into existence, the appointees - socialists, trade union officials and others of like kind - who ran it adopted the behaviours of Victorian mine owners.
The long slow build up to the disaster, where they adopted the previous policy of managing the slag heaps. The continuation, and worsening of he policy. The reaction to the disaster. The protection of the guilty.
Truly
The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Read the story. The exact same attitudes and actions are there in all the scandals we have talked of recently. The Post Office scandal especially comes to mind, for some reason.
It’s not party political. And until we change some things (see @Cyclefree ‘s various headers) they will continue.
I agree but what will change and what will trigger it ?
I just cannot see it. I don’t doubt Starmer is a decent person but I have no doubt Labour, if they hold power for a prolonged period of time, will turn out to be just as venal, self serving and corrupt as the current lot.
After all that is exactly what happened with the Blair/Brown regime.
Johnson didn't require a prolonged period in power to become self-serving and corrupt. He hit the ground running.
What transcends party politics is that since at least the 1970s we have drifted into an absolute state of managed decay. I know I keep pointing to what I saw in 1996 as an example of this, but it happened then and its happening again now. That Labour managed to replace a lot of schools and hospitals is Good. Sadly a lot of what was built on their watch was just as half-baked and shoddy as the crumbling facilities they replaced.
There is a British disease of spending as little money as possible and then wondering why what we have is so poor. A basic lack of comprehension that not spending money on x is the same as not spending money at all.
We're seeing this brought to life in both education and the NHS. These schools (and some hospitals) needed to be replaced. But that has cost and the likes of Zahawi don't want to spend the money. But there is also cost in not spending that money. More cost - as not only will replacement schools need to be built anyway, but the disruption cost and the emergency costs will be added on top.
Until politicians actually talk to people about this we will remain stuck. Thatcher's simplistic comparison to a household budget appears to have stuck and that is a big part of the problem, but nobody of either party have tried to change this false narrative.
Don’t worry - the *cost* of the shoddy buildings was world class.
A relative who runs a building business, pointed out that the price per square meter for the new schools (in the early 2000s) handily exceeded the price he charged for digging and fitting out luxury basements as part of whole house rip outs for 1% in Chelsea. The most expensive kind of construction there is…
And the school designs didn’t have zero chlorine 15m swimming pools, with total water reclamation in their basements.
Mind you, one client did ask if they could do the room from Goldfinger. The answer was that getting sign off off on a floor sliding open with no railing, a large billiard table driving round the room etc. was impossible. So we are the nation who can’t.
Isn't this the point I keep making? We're spending ludicrous amounts of money to build low cost shoddy shite. An ocean of cash lining people's pockets.
I think most are in agreement with that statement I know I am of the same mind. However how does this happen? I know my thought is there is a problem in the civil servants running the various departments. While a minister approves a new school I very much doubt they are in a position to be able to gauge whether the plans presented and the bids received are value for money. I suspect therefore the problem is in the specification and bidding process.
From dealings I have had with civil servants in both the DfT and DoH on various projects they seem to have little clue how to define a project, and decide if a bid is good value. Then once the project is underway they keep wanting to make changes. Look there for the problem in my view.
I met a civil servant on the periphery of the British Army small arms ammunition fuckup.
Brief version of the story
1) they binned the old ammunition buying unit in the MOD for being… a bunch of old fashioned nerds. One young civil servant described them as difficult to work with, given their “worrying obsession with firearms” 2) the replacement team bought the cheapest stuff they could find. 3) guns started jamming in Afghanistan
The civil servant in question said that they had “followed best practice”. Really? Buying shit that works is surely at the top of page one on The Guide To Buying Stuff, right?
He then angrily demanded if I “wanted the ammunition for the British Army to be bought by a bunch of gun nuts?”
If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.
Aberfan happened under a Labour government.
Factually true. But nonetheless an absolutely ridiculous and quite frankly offensive partisan post. I have never heard anyone party politicise the Aberfan disaster before today.
Are you actually aware of the circumstances around that tragedy?
What I find fascinating about Aberfan is this -
The moment the NCB came into existence, the appointees - socialists, trade union officials and others of like kind - who ran it adopted the behaviours of Victorian mine owners.
The long slow build up to the disaster, where they adopted the previous policy of managing the slag heaps. The continuation, and worsening of he policy. The reaction to the disaster. The protection of the guilty.
Truly
The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Read the story. The exact same attitudes and actions are there in all the scandals we have talked of recently. The Post Office scandal especially comes to mind, for some reason.
It’s not party political. And until we change some things (see @Cyclefree ‘s various headers) they will continue.
I agree but what will change and what will trigger it ?
I just cannot see it. I don’t doubt Starmer is a decent person but I have no doubt Labour, if they hold power for a prolonged period of time, will turn out to be just as venal, self serving and corrupt as the current lot.
After all that is exactly what happened with the Blair/Brown regime.
Johnson didn't require a prolonged period in power to become self-serving and corrupt. He hit the ground running.
Focus on the Micro and ignore the scale of the problem. That way things never change they just become accepted and accommodated.
Johnson is a symptom of the malaise in our politics. He is not, solely, the problem.
What transcends party politics is that since at least the 1970s we have drifted into an absolute state of managed decay. I know I keep pointing to what I saw in 1996 as an example of this, but it happened then and its happening again now. That Labour managed to replace a lot of schools and hospitals is Good. Sadly a lot of what was built on their watch was just as half-baked and shoddy as the crumbling facilities they replaced.
There is a British disease of spending as little money as possible and then wondering why what we have is so poor. A basic lack of comprehension that not spending money on x is the same as not spending money at all.
We're seeing this brought to life in both education and the NHS. These schools (and some hospitals) needed to be replaced. But that has cost and the likes of Zahawi don't want to spend the money. But there is also cost in not spending that money. More cost - as not only will replacement schools need to be built anyway, but the disruption cost and the emergency costs will be added on top.
Until politicians actually talk to people about this we will remain stuck. Thatcher's simplistic comparison to a household budget appears to have stuck and that is a big part of the problem, but nobody of either party have tried to change this false narrative.
Don’t worry - the *cost* of the shoddy buildings was world class.
A relative who runs a building business, pointed out that the price per square meter for the new schools (in the early 2000s) handily exceeded the price he charged for digging and fitting out luxury basements as part of whole house rip outs for 1% in Chelsea. The most expensive kind of construction there is…
And the school designs didn’t have zero chlorine 15m swimming pools, with total water reclamation in their basements.
Mind you, one client did ask if they could do the room from Goldfinger. The answer was that getting sign off off on a floor sliding open with no railing, a large billiard table driving round the room etc. was impossible. So we are the nation who can’t.
Isn't this the point I keep making? We're spending ludicrous amounts of money to build low cost shoddy shite. An ocean of cash lining people's pockets.
It’s to do with how public contracts are structured. The same thing occurs around the world. The American space launch industry is a fascinating example.
Due to historic problems with shoddy materials, cheating, fraud, etc very special guidelines were created for contracts. These are vast and unwieldy.
Profit is often restricted - yes, in America, a company can be taken to court for exceeding their profit on a government contract.
So you have have slow, vast contractually arrangements, huge amount of oversight of the bullshit kind.
What transcends party politics is that since at least the 1970s we have drifted into an absolute state of managed decay. I know I keep pointing to what I saw in 1996 as an example of this, but it happened then and its happening again now. That Labour managed to replace a lot of schools and hospitals is Good. Sadly a lot of what was built on their watch was just as half-baked and shoddy as the crumbling facilities they replaced.
There is a British disease of spending as little money as possible and then wondering why what we have is so poor. A basic lack of comprehension that not spending money on x is the same as not spending money at all.
We're seeing this brought to life in both education and the NHS. These schools (and some hospitals) needed to be replaced. But that has cost and the likes of Zahawi don't want to spend the money. But there is also cost in not spending that money. More cost - as not only will replacement schools need to be built anyway, but the disruption cost and the emergency costs will be added on top.
Until politicians actually talk to people about this we will remain stuck. Thatcher's simplistic comparison to a household budget appears to have stuck and that is a big part of the problem, but nobody of either party have tried to change this false narrative.
Don’t worry - the *cost* of the shoddy buildings was world class.
A relative who runs a building business, pointed out that the price per square meter for the new schools (in the early 2000s) handily exceeded the price he charged for digging and fitting out luxury basements as part of whole house rip outs for 1% in Chelsea. The most expensive kind of construction there is…
And the school designs didn’t have zero chlorine 15m swimming pools, with total water reclamation in their basements.
Mind you, one client did ask if they could do the room from Goldfinger. The answer was that getting sign off off on a floor sliding open with no railing, a large billiard table driving round the room etc. was impossible. So we are the nation who can’t.
The HateNewBuild twitter and YouTube feed never ceases to surprise and shock as to just how shit the standards of building are in this country for massively overpriced shitholes.
So how do we cut the spivs out?
These are properties built by large housebuilders.
Set decent standards and Regulate properly, don’t sign off shoddy workmanship.
I am not an expert in this industry this is just what I gleaned from watching videos on it. Others here would be better placed to advise.
Bizarre that they haven’t just stopped people from changing the name/license number on the reservation once it has been made. That would stop this overnight.
It’s a system that worked perfectly well when it had some slack in it, but once supply of tests dropped below demand it completely fell apart. I’m told that it was already failing pre-pandemic, as examiner salaries had led to a drop in recruitment & therefore test supply dropping below the necessary thresholds to maintain availability. The pandemic completely wrecked it & led to a total shift in student / instructor behaviour.
The DVLA hasn’t understood that the entire system has shifted from one state to another & needs to be completely re-implemented if it is to work at all. They’re tinkering around the edges thinking that slightly increasing supply of examiners will solve everything. Something that was perfectly sensible under the old regime - the ability to swap & move tests between students - is now causing the system to break down completely.
We’re currently stuck trying to get my eldest through this broken system. Unfortunately he just failed another test this week. So it’s up at 5.45am tomorrow morning to see when we can snag another test for him.
On topic, the RAAC story could easily have broken under the Blair/Brown administration - it is one of those "events", and doesn't reflect at all on the competence of the incumbent administration - but it will cause more political problems for the Conservatives because it's in the twilight of its period of office, and it helpfully plays into that crumbling narrative.
I have no doubt funding will be made available, quickly, to make any school to make it safe - but I expect a lot of temporary building closures simply because we won't have enough structural engineers to remediate them all at once.
Though the slowdown of the schools rebuilding programme under the Conservatives is how RAAC has shifted from a problem to a crisis.
RAAC was a perfectly reasonable material to use to build for a 30 year lifespan. What is inexcusable is to fail to plan replace those schools, hospitals and other buildings after those 30 years were up.
It's completely ridiculous to build something that only has a 30 year shelf life though. That's the mindset behind a lot of terrible decision making in the UK. Let me fix today's problems for today and let future generations worry about the future.
If you were going to build for that shelf life anyway, at least build in wood which would be cheaper and easier to replace.
Prefabricated? Yes, it would make sense. Basically WW1 and WW2 army huts.
There's nowt wrong with modern timber framed buildings. They're a little bit vulnerable to fire during the construction phase but once completed (and as long as future trades stick to the strict compartmentalisation systems and don't go drilling holes everywhere) they're as safe as any building and far cheaper and quicker to construct . I know most new Premier Inns have been TF for about a decade.
The DfE should follow the Pemier Inn / McDonald’s model of standardising a handful of designs for schools, with known materials, costs, and economies of scale, then build 100 of each design.
If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.
Aberfan happened under a Labour government.
Factually true. But nonetheless an absolutely ridiculous and quite frankly offensive partisan post. I have never heard anyone party politicise the Aberfan disaster before today.
Are you actually aware of the circumstances around that tragedy?
Good morning
I agree with you, and as a someone who became a parent for the first time 8 days after Aberfan in October 1966 the memory is seared in our mind as we held our new born son close and grieved with our fellow Welsh parents suffering such a terrible loss of their child and in some cases children
It is not appropriate to politicise it
It's legitimate to discuss it for the lessons it teaches us (as Cyclefree has been showing) about how it happened. But also to remind those who weren't around at the time of its impact at the time, as you and I well remember.
Indeed and it was horrific
A neighbour painted a huge mural depicting each child, taken from photographs supplied by the parents, ascending into the arms of Christ
It was very moving
Drive from the Nelson turning off the A470 and heading towards Meryhyr parallel to the dual carriageway. Look to the left across the valley to be met by Aberfan Cemetatary. Row upon row of enormous, ornate headstones, occasionally one missing because the parents deciding to pay for their own memorial. It is a truly chilling sight.
I was only four, a year or two younger than those who died. I remember watching the black and white TV coverage, and my parents in a state of shock. I doubt I understood the ramifications, but that is one of my first vivid recollections.
The NCB took coal tips down as quickly as possible. It took years as they were in every pit village just dangerously blending into the landscape.
Casino may be a senior poster who deserves the respect of lesser commentators, but he knows jack s*** about the tragedy that was Aberfan, and should keep his counsel.
I’m genuinely staggered at that. How the hell is that allowed to happen. What a country.
Lots of shady chancers forming “driving academies” purely to snag slots to sell on. DVLA completely behind the curve & failing to cope.
You can see how we turn into a country like Italy or Argentina, where an incompetent bureaucracy creates opportunity for bribery and corruption to enter the system through these middle-men who set them selves up to sell government services to those who are able to pay & eventually becomes endemic.
On topic, the RAAC story could easily have broken under the Blair/Brown administration - it is one of those "events", and doesn't reflect at all on the competence of the incumbent administration - but it will cause more political problems for the Conservatives because it's in the twilight of its period of office, and it helpfully plays into that crumbling narrative.
I have no doubt funding will be made available, quickly, to make any school to make it safe - but I expect a lot of temporary building closures simply because we won't have enough structural engineers to remediate them all at once.
Though the slowdown of the schools rebuilding programme under the Conservatives is how RAAC has shifted from a problem to a crisis.
RAAC was a perfectly reasonable material to use to build for a 30 year lifespan. What is inexcusable is to fail to plan replace those schools, hospitals and other buildings after those 30 years were up.
It's completely ridiculous to build something that only has a 30 year shelf life though. That's the mindset behind a lot of terrible decision making in the UK. Let me fix today's problems for today and let future generations worry about the future.
If you were going to build for that shelf life anyway, at least build in wood which would be cheaper and easier to replace.
Prefabricated? Yes, it would make sense. Basically WW1 and WW2 army huts.
Our village hall, a WW1 army hut, will have its centenary next year (and presumably was originally fabricated pre-1924). I'm not saying that it doesn't have its downsides in terms of insulation, maintenance, etc., but it's still perfectly serviceable after 100 years (and doesn't require anything like as much fund-raising as surrounding village halls which have been built at great expense).
Oh, quite so. Wasn't knocking the principle at all. Quite the reverse.
Big question is why did successive governments over the years believe that ignoring the fact that this crumbly concrete from the 1970s with a 40 years shelf life was going to be 40 years old very soon was a good way of dealing with the problem?
I’m genuinely staggered at that. How the hell is that allowed to happen. What a country.
Why on Earth would they? Finding a way to become a middleman, (whilst producing absolutely nothing) seems to be the entire economic model. It shows enterprise and aspiration. Think you can just book and use a government regulated service at the price set? More fool you for have no imagination or contacts. You've only yourself to blame for your indolence.
What transcends party politics is that since at least the 1970s we have drifted into an absolute state of managed decay. I know I keep pointing to what I saw in 1996 as an example of this, but it happened then and its happening again now. That Labour managed to replace a lot of schools and hospitals is Good. Sadly a lot of what was built on their watch was just as half-baked and shoddy as the crumbling facilities they replaced.
There is a British disease of spending as little money as possible and then wondering why what we have is so poor. A basic lack of comprehension that not spending money on x is the same as not spending money at all.
We're seeing this brought to life in both education and the NHS. These schools (and some hospitals) needed to be replaced. But that has cost and the likes of Zahawi don't want to spend the money. But there is also cost in not spending that money. More cost - as not only will replacement schools need to be built anyway, but the disruption cost and the emergency costs will be added on top.
Until politicians actually talk to people about this we will remain stuck. Thatcher's simplistic comparison to a household budget appears to have stuck and that is a big part of the problem, but nobody of either party have tried to change this false narrative.
Don’t worry - the *cost* of the shoddy buildings was world class.
A relative who runs a building business, pointed out that the price per square meter for the new schools (in the early 2000s) handily exceeded the price he charged for digging and fitting out luxury basements as part of whole house rip outs for 1% in Chelsea. The most expensive kind of construction there is…
And the school designs didn’t have zero chlorine 15m swimming pools, with total water reclamation in their basements.
Mind you, one client did ask if they could do the room from Goldfinger. The answer was that getting sign off off on a floor sliding open with no railing, a large billiard table driving round the room etc. was impossible. So we are the nation who can’t.
Isn't this the point I keep making? We're spending ludicrous amounts of money to build low cost shoddy shite. An ocean of cash lining people's pockets.
I think most are in agreement with that statement I know I am of the same mind. However how does this happen? I know my thought is there is a problem in the civil servants running the various departments. While a minister approves a new school I very much doubt they are in a position to be able to gauge whether the plans presented and the bids received are value for money. I suspect therefore the problem is in the specification and bidding process.
From dealings I have had with civil servants in both the DfT and DoH on various projects they seem to have little clue how to define a project, and decide if a bid is good value. Then once the project is underway they keep wanting to make changes. Look there for the problem in my view.
I met a civil servant on the periphery of the British Army small arms ammunition fuckup.
Brief version of the story
1) they binned the old ammunition buying unit in the MOD for being… a bunch of old fashioned nerds. One young civil servant described them as difficult to work with, given their “worrying obsession with firearms” 2) the replacement team bought the cheapest stuff they could find. 3) guns started jamming in Afghanistan
The civil servant in question said that they had “followed best practice”. Really? Buying shit that works is surely at the top of page one on The Guide To Buying Stuff, right?
He then angrily demanded if I “wanted the ammunition for the British Army to be bought by a bunch of gun nuts?”
He was flummoxed, when I replied “Yes”
“Followed Best Practice” being, obviously, civil service code for “making sure nobody could blame me when things go wrong”
Actually preventing things from going wrong is not in fact in the code of best practice; that would mean that someone was responsible when it didn’t go right.
I’m genuinely staggered at that. How the hell is that allowed to happen. What a country.
AIUI there's an issue with diving schools which have several cars and the learner may use any of them for both learning and tests. It was 60+ years ago that I learned to drive with one of the companies and while I had the same instructor each lesson it wan't always the same car.
Bizarre that they haven’t just stopped people from changing the name/license number on the reservation once it has been made. That would stop this overnight.
It’s a system that worked perfectly well when it had some slack in it, but once supply of tests dropped below demand it completely fell apart. I’m told that it was already failing pre-pandemic, as examiner salaries had led to a drop in recruitment & therefore test supply dropping below the necessary thresholds to maintain availability. The pandemic completely wrecked it & led to a total shift in student / instructor behaviour.
The DVLA hasn’t understood that the entire system has shifted from one state to another & needs to be completely re-implemented if it is to work at all. They’re tinkering around the edges thinking that slightly increasing supply of examiners will solve everything. Something that was perfectly sensible under the old regime - the ability to swap & move tests between students - is now causing the system to break down completely.
We’re currently stuck trying to get my eldest through this broken system. Unfortunately he just failed another test this week. So it’s up at 5.45am tomorrow morning to see when we can snag another test for him.
Maybe snag a few more lessons as well, to be on the safe side. That is the other downside of the test shortage, that pupils take tests when they can, rather than when they are ready. Fwiw some Youtube driving channels (eg Ashley Neal) often have thanks from new drivers who watched the videos.
Big question is why did successive governments over the years believe that ignoring the fact that this crumbly concrete from the 1970s with a 40 years shelf life was going to be 40 years old very soon was a good way of dealing with the problem?
Since 1970 we have had just 18 years of Labour Governments, the remaining 35 weren't. I suspect Labour Party local authority corruption in the RedWall played an enormous part in such buildings being signed off, but what were the good honest Yeoman Tories doing about it in their 35 years running the nation?
If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.
Aberfan happened under a Labour government.
Factually true. But nonetheless an absolutely ridiculous and quite frankly offensive partisan post. I have never heard anyone party politicise the Aberfan disaster before today.
Are you actually aware of the circumstances around that tragedy?
What I find fascinating about Aberfan is this -
The moment the NCB came into existence, the appointees - socialists, trade union officials and others of like kind - who ran it adopted the behaviours of Victorian mine owners.
The long slow build up to the disaster, where they adopted the previous policy of managing the slag heaps. The continuation, and worsening of he policy. The reaction to the disaster. The protection of the guilty.
Truly
The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Read the story. The exact same attitudes and actions are there in all the scandals we have talked of recently. The Post Office scandal especially comes to mind, for some reason.
It’s not party political. And until we change some things (see @Cyclefree ‘s various headers) they will continue.
I agree but what will change and what will trigger it ?
I just cannot see it. I don’t doubt Starmer is a decent person but I have no doubt Labour, if they hold power for a prolonged period of time, will turn out to be just as venal, self serving and corrupt as the current lot.
After all that is exactly what happened with the Blair/Brown regime.
Johnson didn't require a prolonged period in power to become self-serving and corrupt. He hit the ground running.
Focus on the Micro and ignore the scale of the problem. That way things never change they just become accepted and accommodated.
Johnson is a symptom of the malaise in our politics. He is not, solely, the problem.
Symptom and cause, I'd say. A symptom in the sense that something must have gone badly wrong in a country that installs him as its leader. A cause because having been installed he proceeded to well & truly trash the place. All in all rather more than your routine piss-poor modern politician.
Big question is why did successive governments over the years believe that ignoring the fact that this crumbly concrete from the 1970s with a 40 years shelf life was going to be 40 years old very soon was a good way of dealing with the problem?
Demographics? Fewer kids mean schools can be closed (rather than letting class sizes fall and education improve). If it were not for immigration, that is, but that might not have been foreseen in the 1970s and 80s.
Loss of institutional memory? The people who commissioned 40-year buildings in 1970-odd have probably long since retired. Staff recruited in the 2000s probably had no interest in hauling old files out of storage to check for any problems therein.
And crumbly concrete is not the crisis so much as concrete that can fail catastrophically and without warning. That is why it changed from "something must be done" to "action this day".
Big question is why did successive governments over the years believe that ignoring the fact that this crumbly concrete from the 1970s with a 40 years shelf life was going to be 40 years old very soon was a good way of dealing with the problem?
Labour took power in 1997 and saw there was an almighty lot of crumbling facilities that needed replacing. The bill to do so was £lots and the available cash was £less so out came PFI.
So many of these PFI contracts were bad - but all of them could have been renegotiated / scrapped. The Tories argued against them in opposition then did more when put back into office (so hypocrisy on a grand scale), but at no point have they actually proposed to spend the money needed to build on the scale required.
Yes, they say they are building 40 new hospitals. But its almost a national joke that they're not. Yet we have hospitals literally held up by emergency props and schools the same. They scrapped the previous school-building program (as problematic as that was) and replaced it with Zahawi reportedly sweeping away emergency reports of schools ready to collapse.
So whilst it has ben successive governments, they have all been Tory.
On topic, the RAAC story could easily have broken under the Blair/Brown administration - it is one of those "events", and doesn't reflect at all on the competence of the incumbent administration - but it will cause more political problems for the Conservatives because it's in the twilight of its period of office, and it helpfully plays into that crumbling narrative.
I have no doubt funding will be made available, quickly, to make any school to make it safe - but I expect a lot of temporary building closures simply because we won't have enough structural engineers to remediate them all at once.
Though the slowdown of the schools rebuilding programme under the Conservatives is how RAAC has shifted from a problem to a crisis.
RAAC was a perfectly reasonable material to use to build for a 30 year lifespan. What is inexcusable is to fail to plan replace those schools, hospitals and other buildings after those 30 years were up.
It's completely ridiculous to build something that only has a 30 year shelf life though. That's the mindset behind a lot of terrible decision making in the UK. Let me fix today's problems for today and let future generations worry about the future.
If you were going to build for that shelf life anyway, at least build in wood which would be cheaper and easier to replace.
Prefabricated? Yes, it would make sense. Basically WW1 and WW2 army huts.
There's nowt wrong with modern timber framed buildings. They're a little bit vulnerable to fire during the construction phase but once completed (and as long as future trades stick to the strict compartmentalisation systems and don't go drilling holes everywhere) they're as safe as any building and far cheaper and quicker to construct . I know most new Premier Inns have been TF for about a decade.
The DfE should follow the Pemier Inn / McDonald’s model of standardising a handful of designs for schools, with known materials, costs, and economies of scale, then build 100 of each design.
One thing that I don't understand at all is why the DfE is managing these projects, I assume the civil servants in it know about education (Ydoethur might disagree) not managing construction projects. Would it not be better if there was a department staffed entirely by people who know about construction projects, how to manage them, inspect them, cost them. Then when we need a new school/hospital etc the relevant department goes to them and says we need a new school it must have x classrooms of at least this size etc. Then leave it up to experts in construction to get the plans done and bids in.
1) they binned the old ammunition buying unit in the MOD
This lot didn't know what they were doing either. In the mid 90s I got issued .32ACP (rumoured to be of Pakistani provenance) that wouldn't penetrate cardboard targets on the range.
There was also the yarn of the Tornado shootdown in GW1 where the crew decided not to get into a shooting match with the Iraqis and surrendered without firing a shot. The Iraqis relieved them of their sidearms (Walther PP) and decided to fire one in celebration. It immediately stovepiped a round and jammed - probably because the cartridge size was out of spec.
Same in Europe , only Uk is full of scumbags who drop everything at their arse, it typifies the state of the country perfectly.
Malc, I spend about 2-3 months of the year in Italy and believe me, the streets are not free of litter there.
You can practically walk across the river in Bangkok on plastic waste!
Yes, Britain has banned plastic straws but the real problem of plastics in the ocean comes from the Far East and Africa. All we've done is make it harder to drink orange juice so that some virtue-signallers can polish up their CVs. Providing waste treatment plants would have been a better use of our Foreign Aid budget than buying up student flats and hotel rooms.
If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.
Aberfan happened under a Labour government.
Factually true. But nonetheless an absolutely ridiculous and quite frankly offensive partisan post. I have never heard anyone party politicise the Aberfan disaster before today.
Are you actually aware of the circumstances around that tragedy?
Good morning
I agree with you, and as a someone who became a parent for the first time 8 days after Aberfan in October 1966 the memory is seared in our mind as we held our new born son close and grieved with our fellow Welsh parents suffering such a terrible loss of their child and in some cases children
It is not appropriate to politicise it
Exactly right.
@OnlyLivingBoy politicised it upthread. I then turned a mirror right back on it (to make that very point) and then @Mexicanpete cried blue murder.
It just shows how lacking in self-awareness and objectivity he is.
He did not. The lack of self awareness is that you think he did.
It makes not a blind bit of difference who was in power when Aberfan occurred. What matters is learning lessons from it. The fear is we might not.
He did. He cast a direct and prima facie claim that the Tories didn't care about the lives of state school kids, and then compared it to Aberfan.
It was extremely offensive.
The fact you can't see it only highlights your partisanship, and greatly lessens my respect for you.
Park the Aberfan comment which isn't relevant.
Tories Do Not Care about people who use state education and the NHS.
Do Not Care. If they did care they would not have put out that video this morning. Would not have slashed the maintenance and replacement budgets and refused to engage on the subject. Would not have slashed school budgets and forced teachers into having to pay out of their own pockets for food and clothing for kids arriving into school hungry and dirty.
And I could go on. The situation we find ourselves in is a choice. It is what Conservative politicians decide are their priorities and the things they need to focus on. We're on our what, our 5th SofS since last summer? They don't care, not a priority, not of interest to the remaining voters they are chasing.
If they cared about the lives of state school kids they would invest in it.
We can't afford that.
Helicopter hire to get VIPs to s***holes like Birmingham, so they don't have to interact with railway station hanging socialist Remainer yobbos don't come cheap you know?
On topic, the RAAC story could easily have broken under the Blair/Brown administration - it is one of those "events", and doesn't reflect at all on the competence of the incumbent administration - but it will cause more political problems for the Conservatives because it's in the twilight of its period of office, and it helpfully plays into that crumbling narrative.
I have no doubt funding will be made available, quickly, to make any school to make it safe - but I expect a lot of temporary building closures simply because we won't have enough structural engineers to remediate them all at once.
Though the slowdown of the schools rebuilding programme under the Conservatives is how RAAC has shifted from a problem to a crisis.
RAAC was a perfectly reasonable material to use to build for a 30 year lifespan. What is inexcusable is to fail to plan replace those schools, hospitals and other buildings after those 30 years were up.
It's completely ridiculous to build something that only has a 30 year shelf life though. That's the mindset behind a lot of terrible decision making in the UK. Let me fix today's problems for today and let future generations worry about the future.
If you were going to build for that shelf life anyway, at least build in wood which would be cheaper and easier to replace.
Prefabricated? Yes, it would make sense. Basically WW1 and WW2 army huts.
There's nowt wrong with modern timber framed buildings. They're a little bit vulnerable to fire during the construction phase but once completed (and as long as future trades stick to the strict compartmentalisation systems and don't go drilling holes everywhere) they're as safe as any building and far cheaper and quicker to construct . I know most new Premier Inns have been TF for about a decade.
The DfE should follow the Pemier Inn / McDonald’s model of standardising a handful of designs for schools, with known materials, costs, and economies of scale, then build 100 of each design.
One thing that I don't understand at all is why the DfE is managing these projects, I assume the civil servants in it know about education (Ydoethur might disagree) not managing construction projects. Would it not be better if there was a department staffed entirely by people who know about construction projects, how to manage them, inspect them, cost them. Then when we need a new school/hospital etc the relevant department goes to them and says we need a new school it must have x classrooms of at least this size etc. Then leave it up to experts in construction to get the plans done and bids in.
What should happen, is that DfE hires a couple of dozen construction people to draw up plans based on requirements of the educators, then any new school is told to pick one of these five standardised designs, and contract a local builder to build it.
The costs come from every project being different, with huge architects’ fees, and local authorities / Acadamies all wanting their flagship building of steel and glass.
A Primary school is a really easy building to design. You need seven or eight classrooms, a kitchen, a library, a hall, 3 or 4 offices. Once the actual design has been done once, and one built, it saves a fortune to simply build another building exactly the same in the next county.
Comments
And here we are again. I see the Tories and fellow travellers are straight onto "youcan'tblametheToriesasStarmerwon'tbeabletochangeit". And "it" being the terrible mess created by the Tories.
So yes, we can blame them. And polls show that the public rightly blame them as well.
There are no easy solutions from here. No magic wand or silver bullet solution. But to start recovery you have to accept the reality of the situation. And the Tories simply can't. Which is why their removal - even if Labour don't possess a magic wand - will be a relief celebrated by millions.
It makes not a blind bit of difference who was in power when Aberfan occurred. What matters is learning lessons from it. The fear is we might not.
Blue Tories/ Red Tories same thing
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/26/suella-braverman-return-after-security-breach-defended-by-james-cleverly
My local heritage railway has to now buy on the global market from Poland and China and it's 5 times more expensive than it was 5 years ago.
https://www.wikilovesmonuments.org.uk/
Get your photos on Wikipedia and you could become the @Sunil_Prasannan of PB, except we already have one of those.
BTW only a man who cant argue the point replies with Bullshit
Surely you meant BULLSHIT
It was extremely offensive.
The fact you can't see it only highlights your partisanship, and greatly lessens my respect for you.
But yes, the price of coal is becoming a real issue.
Those straws you cling to as you justify why you're now a Tory are getting sillier than ever.
Incidentally why the staff can afford to contine, as picking up extra shifts to cover gaps at agency rates.
Cheaper to settle properly, like the Scots have done.
The country needs the catharsis of getting rid of these utter shower of shits, and doesn´t much care beyond that.
Also worth noting Labour were also going to repeal the FTPA.
She didnt
Your proclamation that Labour are not Tories is ridiculous
SKS even said they were
BTW I am a Socialist not a Tory thats why I am campaigning for the Greens
Tories Do Not Care about people who use state education and the NHS.
Do Not Care. If they did care they would not have put out that video this morning. Would not have slashed the maintenance and replacement budgets and refused to engage on the subject. Would not have slashed school budgets and forced teachers into having to pay out of their own pockets for food and clothing for kids arriving into school hungry and dirty.
And I could go on. The situation we find ourselves in is a choice. It is what Conservative politicians decide are their priorities and the things they need to focus on. We're on our what, our 5th SofS since last summer? They don't care, not a priority, not of interest to the remaining voters they are chasing.
If they cared about the lives of state school kids they would invest in it.
There's a very long tale of government inefficiency, bureaucracy and dubious decision making hidden in this image but both the heather and the sun were out so I wasn't complaining.
[Edit: Sorry, no beer. And it seems I ought to have posted the full image elsewhere as the forum (quite rightly) downsizes]
The country could do with having an actual Green Party that isn’t just a repository for disaffected Corbynites combined awkwardly with rural NIMBYs.
The Tories have real world let these buildings crumble over the heads of children - just as they did before 1997. Blair also had tight caps on what he would commit to. Education, Education, Education wasn't constrained in practice by that, nor will Break Down The Barriers To Opportunity At Every Stage. The notion that a new government won't fix this is laughable. A Labour SofS won't dismiss away the reports of dangerous schools as Zahawi did and the 4 who have followed him this last year.
You're voting Green to hope that you get a Tory MP and a Tory government so that you can chortle about how only True Socialism is the way forward. Its no different to any of the other hard left scab groups like TUSC or NHA or whatever. Vote purity hoping for Tory. Because people may as well have the proper Tories to best condition them against capitalism and thus towards socialism, right comrade?
That sounds terminal to me, particularly with the tax burden so high, and Sunak can't fix that in a year or so.
The moment the NCB came into existence, the appointees - socialists, trade union officials and others of like kind - who ran it adopted the behaviours of Victorian mine owners.
The long slow build up to the disaster, where they adopted the previous policy of managing the slag heaps. The continuation, and worsening of he policy. The reaction to the disaster. The protection of the guilty.
Truly
The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Read the story. The exact same attitudes and actions are there in all the scandals we have talked of recently. The Post Office scandal especially comes to mind, for some reason.
It’s not party political. And until we change some things (see @Cyclefree ‘s various headers) they will continue.
I just cannot see it. I don’t doubt Starmer is a decent person but I have no doubt Labour, if they hold power for a prolonged period of time, will turn out to be just as venal, self serving and corrupt as the current lot.
After all that is exactly what happened with the Blair/Brown regime.
But I can see the warning of ignoring past events is a reasonable concern. All @OnlyLivingBoy did was not unreasonably raise the issue of not wanting another Aberfan. It doesn't matter who you support to support that concern.
I mean what do you really think the reaction will be if the govt blusters and a ceiling comes down on a school assembly? Do you think a response of 'Well Labour were in Govt when Aberfan happened' will be helpful?
Certifying the system as safe would be a piece of work. Quite a few people forget that a boiler is a large bomb waiting for it’s apotheosis.
It is not just the Post Office either - but the blood contamination scandal, various NHS scandals and so on.
One can but dream...
There is a British disease of spending as little money as possible and then wondering why what we have is so poor. A basic lack of comprehension that not spending money on x is the same as not spending money at all.
We're seeing this brought to life in both education and the NHS. These schools (and some hospitals) needed to be replaced. But that has cost and the likes of Zahawi don't want to spend the money. But there is also cost in not spending that money. More cost - as not only will replacement schools need to be built anyway, but the disruption cost and the emergency costs will be added on top.
Until politicians actually talk to people about this we will remain stuck. Thatcher's simplistic comparison to a household budget appears to have stuck and that is a big part of the problem, but nobody of either party have tried to change this false narrative.
There have been trials of various coal substitutes - briquettes made from a mix of coal dust, biochar and whatever. Some results have been positive, but I don’t think that they have nailed it yet.
In the Kids Company case, the *judge* said that it would be iniquitous to hold the legally responsible trustees of the charity legally responsible for their voluntarily acquired legal responsibility.
Because it might discourage Proper People becoming a trustee of charities. And Alan Renta-yob (for one) was far to busy, naturally, to actually do the job.
A relative who runs a building business, pointed out that the price per square meter for the new schools (in the early 2000s) handily exceeded the price he charged for digging and fitting out luxury basements as part of whole house rip outs for 1% in Chelsea. The most expensive kind of construction there is…
And the school designs didn’t have zero chlorine 15m swimming pools, with total water reclamation in their basements.
Mind you, one client did ask if they could do the room from Goldfinger. The answer was that getting sign off off on a floor sliding open with no railing, a large billiard table driving round the room etc. was impossible. So we are the nation who can’t.
https://youtu.be/KIx5hX9ck-E?si=-ZAai1QxNlA_dMW0
How has ULEZ been for you this week?
Telegraph still digging for Australia, with another outrage bus peace documenting in detail how it is not going to make a huge difference to something that is not it's main goal.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/09/02/sadiq-khan-ulez-not-reach-net-zero-2030-target-london/
Does sleaze and corruption not matter as long as there are some improvements ?
But people drive like nutters.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/03/an-absolute-mess-learner-drivers-forced-to-buy-tests-on-black-market-as-companies-block-book-slots
ULEZ has nowt to do with CO2 emissions. Any reduction in CO2 that results is a bonus.
Due to historic problems with shoddy materials, cheating, fraud, etc very special guidelines were created for contracts. These are vast and unwieldy.
Profit is often restricted - yes, in America, a company can be taken to court for exceeding their profit on a government contract.
So you have have slow, vast contractually arrangements
Next we add a huge amount of oversight and paperwork of the bullshit kind. Did you know that you are supposed prepare a safety case for all construction projects in the U.K. asking deep questions such as “have you considered the possibility of people slipping on dust?”. This add s about 4% to every contract it’s applied to. Get Trigger and his broom, FFS.
Next we have layering. A contract is subcontracted multiple times to create a pyramid. Each layer can make just so much profit. But in summation a huge chunk of the pyramid is profit. For the final touch - a conglomerate own multiple players at multiple levels in the pyramid.
Layering also helps politically - to spread the government money like butter.
This all adds up to vast cost, failed projects and shit delivered. But all the people in the pyramid are happy.
Google Ares I - a rocket that a rocket geek* could tell you couldn’t work or be built as planned.
*I spotted the fatal flaw, along with many other people, in minutes of the announcement.
From dealings I have had with civil servants in both the DfT and DoH on various projects they seem to have little clue how to define a project, and decide if a bid is good value. Then once the project is underway they keep wanting to make changes. Look there for the problem in my view.
Set decent standards and Regulate properly, don’t sign off shoddy workmanship.
I am not an expert in this industry this is just what I gleaned from watching videos on it. Others here would be better placed to advise.
Brief version of the story
1) they binned the old ammunition buying unit in the MOD for being… a bunch of old fashioned nerds. One young civil servant described them as difficult to work with, given their “worrying obsession with firearms”
2) the replacement team bought the cheapest stuff they could find.
3) guns started jamming in Afghanistan
The civil servant in question said that they had “followed best practice”. Really? Buying shit that works is surely at the top of page one on The Guide To Buying Stuff, right?
He then angrily demanded if I “wanted the ammunition for the British Army to be bought by a bunch of gun nuts?”
He was flummoxed, when I replied “Yes”
I’m genuinely staggered at that. How the hell is that allowed to happen. What a country.
Johnson is a symptom of the malaise in our politics. He is not, solely, the problem.
Due to historic problems with shoddy materials, cheating, fraud, etc very special guidelines were created for contracts. These are vast and unwieldy.
Profit is often restricted - yes, in America, a company can be taken to court for exceeding their profit on a government contract.
So you have have slow, vast contractually arrangements, huge amount of oversight of the bullshit kind. The inspectors are useless.
The DVLA hasn’t understood that the entire system has shifted from one state to another & needs to be completely re-implemented if it is to work at all. They’re tinkering around the edges thinking that slightly increasing supply of examiners will solve everything. Something that was perfectly sensible under the old regime - the ability to swap & move tests between students - is now causing the system to break down completely.
We’re currently stuck trying to get my eldest through this broken system. Unfortunately he just failed another test this week. So it’s up at 5.45am tomorrow morning to see when we can snag another test for him.
and heading towards Meryhyr parallel to the dual carriageway. Look to the left across the valley to be met by Aberfan Cemetatary. Row upon row of enormous, ornate headstones, occasionally one missing because the parents deciding to pay for their own memorial. It is a truly chilling sight.
I was only four, a year or two younger than those who died. I remember watching the black and white TV coverage, and my parents in a state of shock. I doubt I understood the ramifications, but that is one of my first vivid recollections.
The NCB took coal tips down as quickly as possible. It took years as they were in every pit village just dangerously blending into the landscape.
Casino may be a senior poster who deserves the respect of lesser commentators, but he knows jack s*** about the tragedy that was Aberfan, and should keep his counsel.
You can see how we turn into a country like Italy or Argentina, where an incompetent bureaucracy creates opportunity for bribery and corruption to enter the system through these middle-men who set them selves up to sell government services to those who are able to pay & eventually becomes endemic.
Finding a way to become a middleman, (whilst producing absolutely nothing) seems to be the entire economic model.
It shows enterprise and aspiration.
Think you can just book and use a government regulated service at the price set?
More fool you for have no imagination or contacts.
You've only yourself to blame for your indolence.
Actually preventing things from going wrong is not in fact in the code of best practice; that would mean that someone was responsible when it didn’t go right.
It was 60+ years ago that I learned to drive with one of the companies and while I had the same instructor each lesson it wan't always the same car.
Same problem with DRIVING schools!
Loss of institutional memory? The people who commissioned 40-year buildings in 1970-odd have probably long since retired. Staff recruited in the 2000s probably had no interest in hauling old files out of storage to check for any problems therein.
And crumbly concrete is not the crisis so much as concrete that can fail catastrophically and without warning. That is why it changed from "something must be done" to "action this day".
So many of these PFI contracts were bad - but all of them could have been renegotiated / scrapped. The Tories argued against them in opposition then did more when put back into office (so hypocrisy on a grand scale), but at no point have they actually proposed to spend the money needed to build on the scale required.
Yes, they say they are building 40 new hospitals. But its almost a national joke that they're not. Yet we have hospitals literally held up by emergency props and schools the same. They scrapped the previous school-building program (as problematic as that was) and replaced it with Zahawi reportedly sweeping away emergency reports of schools ready to collapse.
So whilst it has ben successive governments, they have all been Tory.
There was also the yarn of the Tornado shootdown in GW1 where the crew decided not to get into a shooting match with the Iraqis and surrendered without firing a shot. The Iraqis relieved them of their sidearms (Walther PP) and decided to fire one in celebration. It immediately stovepiped a round and jammed - probably because the cartridge size was out of spec.
Helicopter hire to get VIPs to s***holes like Birmingham, so they don't have to interact with railway station hanging socialist Remainer yobbos don't come cheap you know?
Almost everyone wants these horrible dogs banned. From left to right, from the @spectator to the @DailyMirror
Yet the government does nothing, apparently because of the RSPCA? And Labour are equally inert
🤷♂️
“The fact we are needing to call out police helicopters due to marauding Bully XL dogs shows that it's time to take action”
https://x.com/ned_donovan/status/1698278723093495844?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
The costs come from every project being different, with huge architects’ fees, and local authorities / Acadamies all wanting their flagship building of steel and glass.
A Primary school is a really easy building to design. You need seven or eight classrooms, a kitchen, a library, a hall, 3 or 4 offices. Once the actual design has been done once, and one built, it saves a fortune to simply build another building exactly the same in the next county.