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The Day Today government – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,161
edited September 2023 in General
The Day Today government – politicalbetting.com

Secretary of State not available for interviews on the biggest story of the weekend.Instead they’ve done this ?? to bizarre dance music in the background, perhaps to sooth frayed nerves? Doesn’t scream that No10 trust the Education Secretary…https://t.co/7bavBYN0FO

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    edited September 2023
    Good morning all.

    Thank you @TSE for this thread and I totally agree.

    Meanwhile Adam Boulton on Sky is on fine form:

    'MPs are returning to Westminster on Monday for the rapidly accelerating downhill run to the next general election.

    Thanks to Boris Johnson's success in repealing the Fixed Term Parliament Act there is no precise guidance as to when that date with political destiny will be.

    The next general election could even take place the year after next.

    If this parliament runs right up to the constitutional buffers, the Commons would be dissolved on 17 December 2024, with the general election taking place no later than 28 January 2025.

    Would the Conservatives be wise to campaign for last-gasp re-election through Christmas and the traditional January blues?

    Probably not.

    The general assumption is that the prime minister will have to screw up his courage and ask the King to call the general election during 2024.

    The nation faces months of torrid electioneering until then.

    A Sunak win would go against the pattern of history

    It is difficult to boast of any significant achievements by UK plc in that time.

    Broken Britain and the Cost Of Living Crisis dominate the public conversation.'

    https://news.sky.com/story/adam-boulton-mps-are-heading-back-to-westminster-but-are-they-all-keeping-an-eye-on-a-looming-election-12952183
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    I think the video is ok but should have been done without the music. It'd be fairly trivial to remove it with sound editing software for a news team I'd have thought anyway
  • The music on the video, which some on the linked Twitter/X thread speculate is there to stop it being shown on the news, at least until the broadcasters remove the copyrighted music. seems a misguided choice. By and large, parents take their children's safety seriously, and the music implies the government does not.

    Gillian Keegan, the Education Secretary, says parents will be contacted if RAAC dictates a change to their children's schooling. It might have been better to have all parents contacted, the vast majority to be reassured their schools are safe. With most school years starting in the next couple of days, they might have left it too late.
  • The cabinet merry go round is ridiculous. Lets stop pretending even a good manager (and these are rare in the commons) can just suddenly become suitable to lead massive and complex departments like education, defence, health, justice on the whim of the prime minister.

    To be eligible for cabinet departmental roles an MP should need a minimum of 3 years experience as a minister, shadow minister or the relevant select committee.

    This is a simple change that would significantly improve our governance at no cost.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,706

    The music on the video, which some on the linked Twitter/X thread speculate is there to stop it being shown on the news, at least until the broadcasters remove the copyrighted music.

    I'm puzzled by this - why wouldn't they want it shown on the news?

    The news would expose it to a wider audience.

    If they don't want people to see it, why make it in the first place?
  • Betting Post

    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: backed Zhou Guanyu to win group 4 at 4.6. That's just him and the Alpines. He starts immediately ahead of them.

    https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2023/09/monza-pre-race-2023.html
  • MikeL said:

    The music on the video, which some on the linked Twitter/X thread speculate is there to stop it being shown on the news, at least until the broadcasters remove the copyrighted music.

    I'm puzzled by this - why wouldn't they want it shown on the news?

    The news would expose it to a wider audience.

    If they don't want people to see it, why make it in the first place?
    Those nasty news people would clip it up rather than play the whole video.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    The cabinet merry go round is ridiculous...

    In the absence of a SoS Education in office for more than a couple of minutes at a time, Nick Gibb has in effect been doing the job.
    He's useless.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    MikeL said:

    The music on the video, which some on the linked Twitter/X thread speculate is there to stop it being shown on the news, at least until the broadcasters remove the copyrighted music.

    I'm puzzled by this - why wouldn't they want it shown on the news?

    The news would expose it to a wider audience.

    If they don't want people to see it, why make it in the first place?
    Those nasty news people would clip it up rather than play the whole video.
    They should do so anyway.
  • The government doesn't care about state schools because they mostly don't use them and neither do their donors. Other people's kids. Their priority is protecting their own interests so their first instinct is how to not spend any money, not how to keep kids safe.
    If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.

    Absurd hyperbole.
  • Fpt @williamglenn

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Just finished another eleven hour shift, so up to sixty hours hours since the Bank Holiday. I think I’ll get to seventy-five for the week after working tomorrow and Monday

    I popped into Waitrose on the way home and got cheap dinner (a minted pea and bacon quiche for £1.39!). On my way in, I saw Peter Mandelson at the checkout (buying sushi and what looked like stir fry ingredients). I’ve known for years that he lives nearby, but it’s the first time I’ve seen him

    You should have stolen his place in the queue, after asking him if he knew who you are?

    :wink:
    That would have been quite some manoeuvre given I didn't yet have shopping and there was an empty self checkout next to the one he was using!

    I know quite a few people that have met him socially, or served him in shops, or worked at his place, and they've all liked him. Even though most of them haven't liked his politics
    I’ve met him and he seemed perfectly charming. I never did understand the loathing he induced
    Homophobia in the mix, I suppose.
    Also, Mandelson never bothered to disguise his centrism, so the left abjured him, and he was seriously clever, and never tried to hide that either, which annoyed everyone

    He would have made an excellent,
    Machiavellian prime minister. A British Macron
    Terrible judgement

    That moustache. QED

    One of Edwina Currie’s more memorable lines was that she knew [he was] serious about power when he shaved it off.
    Are we still talking about Mandelson?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    The music on the video, which some on the linked Twitter/X thread speculate is there to stop it being shown on the news, at least until the broadcasters remove the copyrighted music. seems a misguided choice. By and large, parents take their children's safety seriously, and the music implies the government does not.

    Gillian Keegan, the Education Secretary, says parents will be contacted if RAAC dictates a change to their children's schooling. It might have been better to have all parents contacted, the vast majority to be reassured their schools are safe. With most school years starting in the next couple of days, they might have left it too late.

    If they took schooling seriously, they wouldn't put the DfE in charge of it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    Fpt @williamglenn

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Just finished another eleven hour shift, so up to sixty hours hours since the Bank Holiday. I think I’ll get to seventy-five for the week after working tomorrow and Monday

    I popped into Waitrose on the way home and got cheap dinner (a minted pea and bacon quiche for £1.39!). On my way in, I saw Peter Mandelson at the checkout (buying sushi and what looked like stir fry ingredients). I’ve known for years that he lives nearby, but it’s the first time I’ve seen him

    You should have stolen his place in the queue, after asking him if he knew who you are?

    :wink:
    That would have been quite some manoeuvre given I didn't yet have shopping and there was an empty self checkout next to the one he was using!

    I know quite a few people that have met him socially, or served him in shops, or worked at his place, and they've all liked him. Even though most of them haven't liked his politics
    I’ve met him and he seemed perfectly charming. I never did understand the loathing he induced
    Homophobia in the mix, I suppose.
    Also, Mandelson never bothered to disguise his centrism, so the left abjured him, and he was seriously clever, and never tried to hide that either, which annoyed everyone

    He would have made an excellent,
    Machiavellian prime minister. A British Macron
    Terrible judgement

    That moustache. QED

    One of Edwina Currie’s more memorable lines was that she knew [he was] serious about power when he shaved it off.
    Are we still talking about Mandelson?
    That's a Major question.
  • On topic, the RAAC story could easily have broken under the Blair/Brown administration - it is one of those "events", and doesn't reflect at all on the competence of the incumbent administration - but it will cause more political problems for the Conservatives because it's in the twilight of its period of office, and it helpfully plays into that crumbling narrative.

    I have no doubt funding will be made available, quickly, to make any school to make it safe - but I expect a lot of temporary building closures simply because we won't have enough structural engineers to remediate them all at once.

  • If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.

    Aberfan happened under a Labour government.
  • The government doesn't care about state schools because they mostly don't use them and neither do their donors. Other people's kids. Their priority is protecting their own interests so their first instinct is how to not spend any money, not how to keep kids safe.
    If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.

    Absurd hyperbole.
    You want absurd hyperbole you go and look at people bloating about Labour taking away private schools' tax dodge, like it was the end of the world. We are talking here about children's actual lives being put at risk amid an extraordinary culture of complacency. I couldn't hold this government in any lower regard already, and this latest story shocks even me.
  • And if the government really put the music there to stop media clipping, I suggest getting an actor to read out a transcript. The Day Today even suggested an appropriate modification.

    https://youtu.be/UOUeauLWEaE
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368


    If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.

    Aberfan happened under a Labour government.
    Factually true. But nonetheless an absolutely ridiculous and quite frankly offensive partisan post. I have never heard anyone party politicise the Aberfan disaster before today.

    Are you actually aware of the circumstances around that tragedy?
  • The government doesn't care about state schools because they mostly don't use them and neither do their donors. Other people's kids. Their priority is protecting their own interests so their first instinct is how to not spend any money, not how to keep kids safe.
    If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.

    Absurd hyperbole.
    You want absurd hyperbole you go and look at people bloating about Labour taking away private schools' tax dodge, like it was the end of the world. We are talking here about children's actual lives being put at risk amid an extraordinary culture of complacency. I couldn't hold this government in any lower regard already, and this latest story shocks even me.
    It's bloviating partisan nonsense, with you using it as an exercise in confirmation bias to fart out your innermost (and totally unfounded) prejudices; it's no surprise the Labour herd have crawled out the woodwork to 'like' it en-masse this morning.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632

    On topic, the RAAC story could easily have broken under the Blair/Brown administration - it is one of those "events", and doesn't reflect at all on the competence of the incumbent administration - but it will cause more political problems for the Conservatives because it's in the twilight of its period of office, and it helpfully plays into that crumbling narrative.

    I have no doubt funding will be made available, quickly, to make any school to make it safe - but I expect a lot of temporary building closures simply because we won't have enough structural engineers to remediate them all at once.

    Though the slowdown of the schools rebuilding programme under the Conservatives is how RAAC has shifted from a problem to a crisis.

    RAAC was a perfectly reasonable material to use to build for a 30 year lifespan. What is inexcusable is to fail to plan replace those schools, hospitals and other buildings after those 30 years were up.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    The government doesn't care about state schools because they mostly don't use them and neither do their donors. Other people's kids. Their priority is protecting their own interests so their first instinct is how to not spend any money, not how to keep kids safe.
    If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.

    Absurd hyperbole.
    You want absurd hyperbole you go and look at people bloating about Labour taking away private schools' tax dodge, like it was the end of the world. We are talking here about children's actual lives being put at risk amid an extraordinary culture of complacency. I couldn't hold this government in any lower regard already, and this latest story shocks even me.
    It's bloviating partisan nonsense, with you using it as an exercise in confirmation bias to fart out your innermost (and totally unfounded) prejudices; it's no surprise the Labour herd have crawled out the woodwork to 'like' it en-masse this morning.
    I suspect that you misread posters of all stripes who condemn this appalling administration as "the Labour herd".
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    Over the last 26 years I've worked as a senior leader in 5 different secondary schools.

    The Government's handling of this has been dreadful. The silence about which school are affected has caused parental anxiety, and "we wanted to let school leaders tell parents first" doesn't work when some schools don't have the staff back till Monday 4th September. It's also inconsistent with how other announcements are made (eg when money is doled out for significant capital work, often a national announcement is made and the list of successful school bids is included in a spreadsheet on a website: the DfE seem happy to announce good news themselves, but seem to want to leave it to schools to announce bad news...).

    The dance music video is just bizarre.

    But the bigger picture is, I'm afraid, one of political cowardice. Our public services generally are greatly underfunded. I've seen that first-hand where I've worked. If we want school buildings that aren't prone to collapsing, or a health system where you can get to see someone (anyone) without unreasonable delay, or efficient courts, or... sorry, but we have to fund said public services appropriately.

    Maybe, given the dire state things are in, voters will vote accordingly in the next 16 months.

    What's really worrying is that by recent standards this is one of their less dramatic cockups.

    At least here they have had the moral courage to admit they were wrong. Far too late, and with a strong dash of headless chicken thrown in, but they have done it.

    When it comes to OFSTED failing basic safeguarding tests, or the exams proving a fiasco, or academy chains costing the earth and repeatedly failing in expensive and disruptive fashion, they continue to display tendencies that would embarrass a particularly shy ostrich.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632

    Forget everything else.

    The government asks the minister a set of questions, and puts it online as if it were a proper interview.

    The damnable, North Korean, sauce of it.

    One of the more disgraceful trends over the last decade is how no one is made available at Ministerial level to do these interviews and press conferences. It is a deliberate insult to the voting public and moral cowardice.

    They do it to attempt to kill the story by preventing "balance" as the BBC and other media cannot just put up opposition spokespeople.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    Foxy said:

    Forget everything else.

    The government asks the minister a set of questions, and puts it online as if it were a proper interview.

    The damnable, North Korean, sauce of it.

    One of the more disgraceful trends over the last decade is how no one is made available at Ministerial level to do these interviews and press conferences. It is a deliberate insult to the voting public and moral cowardice.

    They do it to attempt to kill the story by preventing "balance" as the BBC and other media cannot just put up opposition spokespeople.
    They should have sent out Grant Shapps.

    He could also then explain why a man who was caught lying to parliament, who either uses false identities or insecure passwords, who has been accused of fraud and has never in his life done a good job in an administrative department is fit to be heading the Security Service.
  • The government doesn't care about state schools because they mostly don't use them and neither do their donors. Other people's kids. Their priority is protecting their own interests so their first instinct is how to not spend any money, not how to keep kids safe.
    If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.

    Absurd hyperbole.
    You want absurd hyperbole you go and look at people bloating about Labour taking away private schools' tax dodge, like it was the end of the world. We are talking here about children's actual lives being put at risk amid an extraordinary culture of complacency. I couldn't hold this government in any lower regard already, and this latest story shocks even me.
    It's bloviating partisan nonsense, with you using it as an exercise in confirmation bias to fart out your innermost (and totally unfounded) prejudices; it's no surprise the Labour herd have crawled out the woodwork to 'like' it en-masse this morning.
    I suspect that you misread posters of all stripes who condemn this appalling administration as "the Labour herd".
    And the one surefire person who can be relied on to like all of it is you.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Forget everything else.

    The government asks the minister a set of questions, and puts it online as if it were a proper interview.

    The damnable, North Korean, sauce of it.

    One of the more disgraceful trends over the last decade is how no one is made available at Ministerial level to do these interviews and press conferences. It is a deliberate insult to the voting public and moral cowardice.

    They do it to attempt to kill the story by preventing "balance" as the BBC and other media cannot just put up opposition spokespeople.
    They should have sent out Grant Shapps.

    He could also then explain why a man who was caught lying to parliament, who either uses false identities or insecure passwords, who has been accused of fraud and has never in his life done a good job in an administrative department is fit to be heading the Security Service.
    To be fair on Shapps, at least he is willing to appear in public to attempt to defend the indefensible.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Forget everything else.

    The government asks the minister a set of questions, and puts it online as if it were a proper interview.

    The damnable, North Korean, sauce of it.

    One of the more disgraceful trends over the last decade is how no one is made available at Ministerial level to do these interviews and press conferences. It is a deliberate insult to the voting public and moral cowardice.

    They do it to attempt to kill the story by preventing "balance" as the BBC and other media cannot just put up opposition spokespeople.
    They should have sent out Grant Shapps.

    He could also then explain why a man who was caught lying to parliament, who either uses false identities or insecure passwords, who has been accused of fraud and has never in his life done a good job in an administrative department is fit to be heading the Security Service.
    To be fair on Shapps, at least he is willing to appear in public to attempt to defend the indefensible.
    He certainly has enough practice of doing so.
  • ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic, the RAAC story could easily have broken under the Blair/Brown administration - it is one of those "events", and doesn't reflect at all on the competence of the incumbent administration - but it will cause more political problems for the Conservatives because it's in the twilight of its period of office, and it helpfully plays into that crumbling narrative.

    I have no doubt funding will be made available, quickly, to make any school to make it safe - but I expect a lot of temporary building closures simply because we won't have enough structural engineers to remediate them all at once.

    Though the slowdown of the schools rebuilding programme under the Conservatives is how RAAC has shifted from a problem to a crisis.

    RAAC was a perfectly reasonable material to use to build for a 30 year lifespan. What is inexcusable is to fail to plan replace those schools, hospitals and other buildings after those 30 years were up.
    Don't get an exaggerated idea about BSF. It never delivered what it was meant to, which in any case was not, contrary to claims, large numbers of new schools, and the cost was extortionate.

    Moreover even if the PFI schools built under NL don't have RAAC they are still so badly built many of them are already falling down.

    The mismanagement of this crisis can be laid on several groups. The Tories will take most blame as they were in office at the time, as Brown did for the GFC and the Tories for the ERM. That's the nature of the beast. But we need to ask ourselves many much more searching questions about the way we do things in this country and that applies to all parties, the civil service and indeed the media.
    Exactly right. BSF was not value for money. It delivered very expensive glass, steel and concrete edifices to largely uninspired designs under PFI deals, that delivered very little in terms of educational improvement for pupils and some of which are already exhibiting problems.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    ...
  • The government doesn't care about state schools because they mostly don't use them and neither do their donors. Other people's kids. Their priority is protecting their own interests so their first instinct is how to not spend any money, not how to keep kids safe.
    If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.

    Absurd hyperbole.
    You want absurd hyperbole you go and look at people bloating about Labour taking away private schools' tax dodge, like it was the end of the world. We are talking here about children's actual lives being put at risk amid an extraordinary culture of complacency. I couldn't hold this government in any lower regard already, and this latest story shocks even me.
    Bloating is good, like one of those beasties that inflates in the face of a threat I can certainly see that’s what red faced puffed up Tories would do.
  • edited September 2023
    Foxy said:

    On topic, the RAAC story could easily have broken under the Blair/Brown administration - it is one of those "events", and doesn't reflect at all on the competence of the incumbent administration - but it will cause more political problems for the Conservatives because it's in the twilight of its period of office, and it helpfully plays into that crumbling narrative.

    I have no doubt funding will be made available, quickly, to make any school to make it safe - but I expect a lot of temporary building closures simply because we won't have enough structural engineers to remediate them all at once.

    Though the slowdown of the schools rebuilding programme under the Conservatives is how RAAC has shifted from a problem to a crisis.

    RAAC was a perfectly reasonable material to use to build for a 30 year lifespan. What is inexcusable is to fail to plan replace those schools, hospitals and other buildings after those 30 years were up.
    What makes you think Building Schools for the Future hasn't produced unsafe schools? I've worked with several schools built between 2000-2010 that require significant works in relation to fire compartmentation and in one case fire exits were omitted from science labs.

    It's not a point to try to make political capital from. It reflects more on poor application of building control standards by building control officers (finally being tightened after Grenfell) and potential conflicts of interest. The lack of fire exits in the science labs was approved by the local educational authority's own building control department.
  • ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic, the RAAC story could easily have broken under the Blair/Brown administration - it is one of those "events", and doesn't reflect at all on the competence of the incumbent administration - but it will cause more political problems for the Conservatives because it's in the twilight of its period of office, and it helpfully plays into that crumbling narrative.

    I have no doubt funding will be made available, quickly, to make any school to make it safe - but I expect a lot of temporary building closures simply because we won't have enough structural engineers to remediate them all at once.

    Though the slowdown of the schools rebuilding programme under the Conservatives is how RAAC has shifted from a problem to a crisis.

    RAAC was a perfectly reasonable material to use to build for a 30 year lifespan. What is inexcusable is to fail to plan replace those schools, hospitals and other buildings after those 30 years were up.
    Don't get an exaggerated idea about BSF. It never delivered what it was meant to, which in any case was not, contrary to claims, large numbers of new schools, and the cost was extortionate.

    Moreover even if the PFI schools built under NL don't have RAAC they are still so badly built many of them are already falling down.

    The mismanagement of this crisis can be laid on several groups. The Tories will take most blame as they were in office at the time, as Brown did for the GFC and the Tories for the ERM. That's the nature of the beast. But we need to ask ourselves many much more searching questions about the way we do things in this country and that applies to all parties, the civil service and indeed the media.
    The Fermi estimate is that we need to rebuild 1000 schools a year, every year, to keep up with the ravages of entropy. Certainly if we're building 30 year buildings. In my lifetime, I don't think we've ever come close to that.

    (Sam Freedman, who is on the culpable list, makes the point that Treasury models have a downer on capital spends that don't generate a return but need to be done anyway.)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic, the RAAC story could easily have broken under the Blair/Brown administration - it is one of those "events", and doesn't reflect at all on the competence of the incumbent administration - but it will cause more political problems for the Conservatives because it's in the twilight of its period of office, and it helpfully plays into that crumbling narrative.

    I have no doubt funding will be made available, quickly, to make any school to make it safe - but I expect a lot of temporary building closures simply because we won't have enough structural engineers to remediate them all at once.

    Though the slowdown of the schools rebuilding programme under the Conservatives is how RAAC has shifted from a problem to a crisis.

    RAAC was a perfectly reasonable material to use to build for a 30 year lifespan. What is inexcusable is to fail to plan replace those schools, hospitals and other buildings after those 30 years were up.
    Don't get an exaggerated idea about BSF. It never delivered what it was meant to, which in any case was not, contrary to claims, large numbers of new schools, and the cost was extortionate.

    Moreover even if the PFI schools built under NL don't have RAAC they are still so badly built many of them are already falling down.

    The mismanagement of this crisis can be laid on several groups. The Tories will take most blame as they were in office at the time, as Brown did for the GFC and the Tories for the ERM. That's the nature of the beast. But we need to ask ourselves many much more searching questions about the way we do things in this country and that applies to all parties, the civil service and indeed the media.
    Exactly right. BSF was not value for money. It delivered very expensive glass, steel and concrete edifices to largely uninspired designs under PFI deals, that delivered very little in terms of educational improvement for pupils and some of which are already exhibiting problems.
    Sure, there was a lot wrong with it, but it was this governments responsibility to replace it with something better. It failed to do so.

    Not just schools either. This is King's Lynn Hospital

    BBC News - Props holding up King's Lynn hospital roof rises to 2,400
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-63137642
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    Foxy said:

    On topic, the RAAC story could easily have broken under the Blair/Brown administration - it is one of those "events", and doesn't reflect at all on the competence of the incumbent administration - but it will cause more political problems for the Conservatives because it's in the twilight of its period of office, and it helpfully plays into that crumbling narrative.

    I have no doubt funding will be made available, quickly, to make any school to make it safe - but I expect a lot of temporary building closures simply because we won't have enough structural engineers to remediate them all at once.

    Though the slowdown of the schools rebuilding programme under the Conservatives is how RAAC has shifted from a problem to a crisis.

    RAAC was a perfectly reasonable material to use to build for a 30 year lifespan. What is inexcusable is to fail to plan replace those schools, hospitals and other buildings after those 30 years were up.
    What makes you think Building Schools for the Future hasn't produced unsafe schools? I've worked with several schools built between 2000-2010 that require significant works in relation to fire compartmentation and in one case fire exits were omitted from science labs.

    It's not a point to try to make political capital from. It reflects more on poor application of building control standards by building control officers (finally being tightened after Grenfell) and potential conflicts of interest. The lack of fire exits in the science labs was approved by the local educational authorities own building control department.
    Bloody hell, I hadn't heard that one.

    My favourite one was the L-shaped classrooms, but that's way worse.

    And the one I worked in which didn't have functioning sockets in most of the Humanities rooms because the PFI contractor wouldn't pay for cabling.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632

    Foxy said:

    On topic, the RAAC story could easily have broken under the Blair/Brown administration - it is one of those "events", and doesn't reflect at all on the competence of the incumbent administration - but it will cause more political problems for the Conservatives because it's in the twilight of its period of office, and it helpfully plays into that crumbling narrative.

    I have no doubt funding will be made available, quickly, to make any school to make it safe - but I expect a lot of temporary building closures simply because we won't have enough structural engineers to remediate them all at once.

    Though the slowdown of the schools rebuilding programme under the Conservatives is how RAAC has shifted from a problem to a crisis.

    RAAC was a perfectly reasonable material to use to build for a 30 year lifespan. What is inexcusable is to fail to plan replace those schools, hospitals and other buildings after those 30 years were up.
    What makes you think Building Schools for the Future hasn't produced unsafe schools? I've worked with several schools built between 2000-2010 that require significant works in relation to fire compartmentation and in one case fire exits were omitted from science labs.

    It's not a point to try to make political capital from. It reflects more on poor application of building control standards by building control officers (finally being tightened after Grenfell) and potential conflicts of interest. The lack of fire exits in the science labs was approved by the local educational authority's own building control department.
    Well replace BSF with a better programme then, don't just do nothing for a decade.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    edited September 2023

    The government doesn't care about state schools because they mostly don't use them and neither do their donors. Other people's kids. Their priority is protecting their own interests so their first instinct is how to not spend any money, not how to keep kids safe.
    If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.

    Absurd hyperbole.
    You want absurd hyperbole you go and look at people bloating about Labour taking away private schools' tax dodge, like it was the end of the world. We are talking here about children's actual lives being put at risk amid an extraordinary culture of complacency. I couldn't hold this government in any lower regard already, and this latest story shocks even me.
    It's bloviating partisan nonsense, with you using it as an exercise in confirmation bias to fart out your innermost (and totally unfounded) prejudices; it's no surprise the Labour herd have crawled out the woodwork to 'like' it en-masse this morning.
    I suspect that you misread posters of all stripes who condemn this appalling administration as "the Labour herd".
    And the one surefire person who can be relied on to like all of it is you.
    I detest this dreadful Government, but if you read my posts I haven't got much positive commentary for the Labour Party, other than they are not the Conservatives, which at present is an enormous plus.

    I call out Starmer incompetence, I call out Corbynista insanity and the antisemitism of Labour Party members. I have been highly critical of historic Labour Party corruption. I frequently mention the late T. Dan Smith and the late Graham Jenkins who are just two of the Labour figures you could probably pin the aerated concrete scandal upon. Granted these brown envelope planning issues are small potatoes when compared to something as egregious as the PPE scandal. And I state, I believe through our quirky election system Sunak will jog home with a majority of 20. Yet I am the Labour herd.

    As to your Aberfan comment, that is truly awful. Educate yourself you clown. Anyway I have better things to do than justify myself to an unpleasant fool.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    If anyone thinks the Tories aren't going to be blamed (rightly or wrongly) for the country's infrastructure issues, they are deluded.
  • ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic, the RAAC story could easily have broken under the Blair/Brown administration - it is one of those "events", and doesn't reflect at all on the competence of the incumbent administration - but it will cause more political problems for the Conservatives because it's in the twilight of its period of office, and it helpfully plays into that crumbling narrative.

    I have no doubt funding will be made available, quickly, to make any school to make it safe - but I expect a lot of temporary building closures simply because we won't have enough structural engineers to remediate them all at once.

    Though the slowdown of the schools rebuilding programme under the Conservatives is how RAAC has shifted from a problem to a crisis.

    RAAC was a perfectly reasonable material to use to build for a 30 year lifespan. What is inexcusable is to fail to plan replace those schools, hospitals and other buildings after those 30 years were up.
    What makes you think Building Schools for the Future hasn't produced unsafe schools? I've worked with several schools built between 2000-2010 that require significant works in relation to fire compartmentation and in one case fire exits were omitted from science labs.

    It's not a point to try to make political capital from. It reflects more on poor application of building control standards by building control officers (finally being tightened after Grenfell) and potential conflicts of interest. The lack of fire exits in the science labs was approved by the local educational authorities own building control department.
    Bloody hell, I hadn't heard that one.

    My favourite one was the L-shaped classrooms, but that's way worse.

    And the one I worked in which didn't have functioning sockets in most of the Humanities rooms because the PFI contractor wouldn't pay for cabling.
    The financial arrangements and arguments given the complexities of these PFI deals also mean that works frequently get delayed too. In fairness to the Multi Academy Trust I work with, they sorted the fire exit issue at their cost and argued the toss afterwards. The compartmentation failings are more a property protection rather than life protection matter and sometimes drag on with arguments about who pays.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632
    Incidentally, one secondary* effect of the RAAC crisis is going to be diversion of a lot of the construction sector to fix the problem, stretching capacity in this sector and pushing up prices.

    *no pun intended...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic, the RAAC story could easily have broken under the Blair/Brown administration - it is one of those "events", and doesn't reflect at all on the competence of the incumbent administration - but it will cause more political problems for the Conservatives because it's in the twilight of its period of office, and it helpfully plays into that crumbling narrative.

    I have no doubt funding will be made available, quickly, to make any school to make it safe - but I expect a lot of temporary building closures simply because we won't have enough structural engineers to remediate them all at once.

    Though the slowdown of the schools rebuilding programme under the Conservatives is how RAAC has shifted from a problem to a crisis.

    RAAC was a perfectly reasonable material to use to build for a 30 year lifespan. What is inexcusable is to fail to plan replace those schools, hospitals and other buildings after those 30 years were up.
    It's completely ridiculous to build something that only has a 30 year shelf life though. That's the mindset behind a lot of terrible decision making in the UK. Let me fix today's problems for today and let future generations worry about the future.
    If you were going to build for that shelf life anyway, at least build in wood which would be cheaper and easier to replace.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    MikeL said:

    The music on the video, which some on the linked Twitter/X thread speculate is there to stop it being shown on the news, at least until the broadcasters remove the copyrighted music.

    I'm puzzled by this - why wouldn't they want it shown on the news?

    The news would expose it to a wider audience.

    If they don't want people to see it, why make it in the first place?
    In which case the muzak is a serious error.

    (It's a serious error in any event tbh.)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Foxy said:

    Incidentally, one secondary* effect of the RAAC crisis is going to be diversion of a lot of the construction sector to fix the problem, stretching capacity in this sector and pushing up prices.

    *no pun intended...

    Let's hope we learn the lesson from this then.
  • The government doesn't care about state schools because they mostly don't use them and neither do their donors. Other people's kids. Their priority is protecting their own interests so their first instinct is how to not spend any money, not how to keep kids safe.
    If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.

    Absurd hyperbole.
    You want absurd hyperbole you go and look at people bloating about Labour taking away private schools' tax dodge, like it was the end of the world. We are talking here about children's actual lives being put at risk amid an extraordinary culture of complacency. I couldn't hold this government in any lower regard already, and this latest story shocks even me.
    Bloating is good, like one of those beasties that inflates in the face of a threat I can certainly see that’s what red faced puffed up Tories would do.
    Autocorrect obviously has a problem with blovating! (it just tried to change that one to bloating too).
  • The government doesn't care about state schools because they mostly don't use them and neither do their donors. Other people's kids. Their priority is protecting their own interests so their first instinct is how to not spend any money, not how to keep kids safe.
    If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.

    Absurd hyperbole.
    Is it? Stories in the news this morning of reports coming across various Sofas desks at the DfE and no interest. They are interested in saving money and have problems go away. Less interested in the problem.

    Now they say they will pay for portacabins. I assume some Tory contractors are lined up to like their pockets. But portacabins are terrible for learning in (I know) and cost a bomb.

    As usual we get the worst of both worlds. Crumbling Britain falls apart and we spend more than we needed to for appalling outcomes. But the right people's kids don't go to RAAC schools, and there's a profit to me made for our mates, so fuck you.

    Sorry if that description of your party upsets you. But it's self evident.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    MaxPB said:

    Over the last 26 years I've worked as a senior leader in 5 different secondary schools.

    The Government's handling of this has been dreadful. The silence about which school are affected has caused parental anxiety, and "we wanted to let school leaders tell parents first" doesn't work when some schools don't have the staff back till Monday 4th September. It's also inconsistent with how other announcements are made (eg when money is doled out for significant capital work, often a national announcement is made and the list of successful school bids is included in a spreadsheet on a website: the DfE seem happy to announce good news themselves, but seem to want to leave it to schools to announce bad news...).

    The dance music video is just bizarre.

    But the bigger picture is, I'm afraid, one of political cowardice. Our public services generally are greatly underfunded. I've seen that first-hand where I've worked. If we want school buildings that aren't prone to collapsing, or a health system where you can get to see someone (anyone) without unreasonable delay, or efficient courts, or... sorry, but we have to fund said public services appropriately.

    Maybe, given the dire state things are in, voters will vote accordingly in the next 16 months.

    Public spending has reached its highest ever level. The state is not "underfunded" we're just spending on the wrong things.
    The wrong things being?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    edited September 2023

    The government doesn't care about state schools because they mostly don't use them and neither do their donors. Other people's kids. Their priority is protecting their own interests so their first instinct is how to not spend any money, not how to keep kids safe.
    If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.

    Absurd hyperbole.
    You want absurd hyperbole you go and look at people bloating about Labour taking away private schools' tax dodge, like it was the end of the world. We are talking here about children's actual lives being put at risk amid an extraordinary culture of complacency. I couldn't hold this government in any lower regard already, and this latest story shocks even me.
    Bloating is good, like one of those beasties that inflates in the face of a threat I can certainly see that’s what red faced puffed up Tories would do.
    Perfect metaphor. Ought to use it in English lessons.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHnEiPGxsB8
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic, the RAAC story could easily have broken under the Blair/Brown administration - it is one of those "events", and doesn't reflect at all on the competence of the incumbent administration - but it will cause more political problems for the Conservatives because it's in the twilight of its period of office, and it helpfully plays into that crumbling narrative.

    I have no doubt funding will be made available, quickly, to make any school to make it safe - but I expect a lot of temporary building closures simply because we won't have enough structural engineers to remediate them all at once.

    Though the slowdown of the schools rebuilding programme under the Conservatives is how RAAC has shifted from a problem to a crisis.

    RAAC was a perfectly reasonable material to use to build for a 30 year lifespan. What is inexcusable is to fail to plan replace those schools, hospitals and other buildings after those 30 years were up.
    It's completely ridiculous to build something that only has a 30 year shelf life though. That's the mindset behind a lot of terrible decision making in the UK. Let me fix today's problems for today and let future generations worry about the future.
    A more benign example of this is tree-planting in new developments/infrastructure projects. "Too difficult/too expensive", and that attitude pervades through the whole project.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926
    edited September 2023

    The government doesn't care about state schools because they mostly don't use them and neither do their donors. Other people's kids. Their priority is protecting their own interests so their first instinct is how to not spend any money, not how to keep kids safe.
    If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.

    Absurd hyperbole.
    Is it? Stories in the news this morning of reports coming across various Sofas desks at the DfE and no interest. They are interested in saving money and have problems go away. Less interested in the problem.

    Now they say they will pay for portacabins. I assume some Tory contractors are lined up to like their pockets. But portacabins are terrible for learning in (I know) and cost a bomb.

    As usual we get the worst of both worlds. Crumbling Britain falls apart and we spend more than we needed to for appalling outcomes. But the right people's kids don't go to RAAC schools, and there's a profit to me made for our mates, so fuck you.

    Sorry if that description of your party upsets you. But it's self evident.
    It is hyperbole because he claimed that if only one collapse occurred, we’d be looking at another Aberfan, something that killed a hundred schoolchildren.

    Now, I’m not claiming that there’s no problem, and that it shouldn’t have been dealt with earlier. But it’s just scaremongering to say a single incident would kill hundreds.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    Aberfan is not a party political issue. It - and the reaction of the NCB and the authorities for decades after (under both main parties) - however showed that being in public ownership did not lead to better treatment of those affected. Indeed, it made it worse.

    See here - https://www.cyclefree.co.uk/the-price-of-indifference/


  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic, the RAAC story could easily have broken under the Blair/Brown administration - it is one of those "events", and doesn't reflect at all on the competence of the incumbent administration - but it will cause more political problems for the Conservatives because it's in the twilight of its period of office, and it helpfully plays into that crumbling narrative.

    I have no doubt funding will be made available, quickly, to make any school to make it safe - but I expect a lot of temporary building closures simply because we won't have enough structural engineers to remediate them all at once.

    Though the slowdown of the schools rebuilding programme under the Conservatives is how RAAC has shifted from a problem to a crisis.

    RAAC was a perfectly reasonable material to use to build for a 30 year lifespan. What is inexcusable is to fail to plan replace those schools, hospitals and other buildings after those 30 years were up.
    It's completely ridiculous to build something that only has a 30 year shelf life though. That's the mindset behind a lot of terrible decision making in the UK. Let me fix today's problems for today and let future generations worry about the future.
    If you were going to build for that shelf life anyway, at least build in wood which would be cheaper and easier to replace.
    Prefabricated? Yes, it would make sense. Basically WW1 and WW2 army huts.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,035
    MaxPB said:

    Over the last 26 years I've worked as a senior leader in 5 different secondary schools.

    The Government's handling of this has been dreadful. The silence about which school are affected has caused parental anxiety, and "we wanted to let school leaders tell parents first" doesn't work when some schools don't have the staff back till Monday 4th September. It's also inconsistent with how other announcements are made (eg when money is doled out for significant capital work, often a national announcement is made and the list of successful school bids is included in a spreadsheet on a website: the DfE seem happy to announce good news themselves, but seem to want to leave it to schools to announce bad news...).

    The dance music video is just bizarre.

    But the bigger picture is, I'm afraid, one of political cowardice. Our public services generally are greatly underfunded. I've seen that first-hand where I've worked. If we want school buildings that aren't prone to collapsing, or a health system where you can get to see someone (anyone) without unreasonable delay, or efficient courts, or... sorry, but we have to fund said public services appropriately.

    Maybe, given the dire state things are in, voters will vote accordingly in the next 16 months.

    Public spending has reached its highest ever level. The state is not "underfunded" we're just spending on the wrong things.
    Also spending it incredibly inefficiently in many ways. NHS diversity officers that cost as much as three nurses. Would ANYBODY rather have the former than the latter? Staggering waste.

    That will always be the case - the larger an organisation is, the more bloat and waste there is. Bloated European governments test that theory to destruction.
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic, the RAAC story could easily have broken under the Blair/Brown administration - it is one of those "events", and doesn't reflect at all on the competence of the incumbent administration - but it will cause more political problems for the Conservatives because it's in the twilight of its period of office, and it helpfully plays into that crumbling narrative.

    I have no doubt funding will be made available, quickly, to make any school to make it safe - but I expect a lot of temporary building closures simply because we won't have enough structural engineers to remediate them all at once.

    Though the slowdown of the schools rebuilding programme under the Conservatives is how RAAC has shifted from a problem to a crisis.

    RAAC was a perfectly reasonable material to use to build for a 30 year lifespan. What is inexcusable is to fail to plan replace those schools, hospitals and other buildings after those 30 years were up.
    What makes you think Building Schools for the Future hasn't produced unsafe schools? I've worked with several schools built between 2000-2010 that require significant works in relation to fire compartmentation and in one case fire exits were omitted from science labs.

    It's not a point to try to make political capital from. It reflects more on poor application of building control standards by building control officers (finally being tightened after Grenfell) and potential conflicts of interest. The lack of fire exits in the science labs was approved by the local educational authority's own building control department.
    Well replace BSF with a better programme then, don't just do nothing for a decade.
    And this is the point. Tories endlessly whine about money being "wasted" on things like new schools. But when the scheme is scrapped, the solution is to spend no money at all

    This was always the point about the PFI projects. An ocean of cash was needed to replace broken facilities left to crumble by the Tories. But politically they had made it difficult to borrow those vast sums - hence the expansion of the Tory PFI policy.

    That Osbrown further extended PFI misses them completely when they call it "Labours PFI". But it didn't extend to building new school and hospital facilities. Once again a decade and more into Tory rule we have an ocean of cash needed to play catch-up with replacing crumbling schools and hospitals.

    You can't just refuse to build them. That costs more money. Idiots. But Tories don't use schools and hospitals in the public sector so why care about them?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647

    The government doesn't care about state schools because they mostly don't use them and neither do their donors. Other people's kids. Their priority is protecting their own interests so their first instinct is how to not spend any money, not how to keep kids safe.
    If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.

    Absurd hyperbole.
    You want absurd hyperbole you go and look at people bloating about Labour taking away private schools' tax dodge, like it was the end of the world. We are talking here about children's actual lives being put at risk amid an extraordinary culture of complacency. I couldn't hold this government in any lower regard already, and this latest story shocks even me.
    It's bloviating partisan nonsense, with you using it as an exercise in confirmation bias to fart out your innermost (and totally unfounded) prejudices; it's no surprise the Labour herd have crawled out the woodwork to 'like' it en-masse this morning.
    "Don't bury the children alive" should have cross-party support, though this is probably what late-stage Conservatism looks like.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310

    MaxPB said:

    Over the last 26 years I've worked as a senior leader in 5 different secondary schools.

    The Government's handling of this has been dreadful. The silence about which school are affected has caused parental anxiety, and "we wanted to let school leaders tell parents first" doesn't work when some schools don't have the staff back till Monday 4th September. It's also inconsistent with how other announcements are made (eg when money is doled out for significant capital work, often a national announcement is made and the list of successful school bids is included in a spreadsheet on a website: the DfE seem happy to announce good news themselves, but seem to want to leave it to schools to announce bad news...).

    The dance music video is just bizarre.

    But the bigger picture is, I'm afraid, one of political cowardice. Our public services generally are greatly underfunded. I've seen that first-hand where I've worked. If we want school buildings that aren't prone to collapsing, or a health system where you can get to see someone (anyone) without unreasonable delay, or efficient courts, or... sorry, but we have to fund said public services appropriately.

    Maybe, given the dire state things are in, voters will vote accordingly in the next 16 months.

    Public spending has reached its highest ever level. The state is not "underfunded" we're just spending on the wrong things.
    The wrong things being?
    McKinsey consultants. Neither use nor ornament in my experience.
  • RobD said:

    The government doesn't care about state schools because they mostly don't use them and neither do their donors. Other people's kids. Their priority is protecting their own interests so their first instinct is how to not spend any money, not how to keep kids safe.
    If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.

    Absurd hyperbole.
    Is it? Stories in the news this morning of reports coming across various Sofas desks at the DfE and no interest. They are interested in saving money and have problems go away. Less interested in the problem.

    Now they say they will pay for portacabins. I assume some Tory contractors are lined up to like their pockets. But portacabins are terrible for learning in (I know) and cost a bomb.

    As usual we get the worst of both worlds. Crumbling Britain falls apart and we spend more than we needed to for appalling outcomes. But the right people's kids don't go to RAAC schools, and there's a profit to me made for our mates, so fuck you.

    Sorry if that description of your party upsets you. But it's self evident.
    It is hyperbole because he claimed that if only one collapse occurred, we’d be looking at another Aberfan, something that killed a hundred schoolchildren.

    Now, I’m not claiming that there’s no problem, and that it shouldn’t have been dealt with earlier. But it’s just scaremongering to say a single incident would kill hundreds.
    Kids. In the main hall doing an assembly. The ceiling collapses. We don't want this to happen. But it could do. Back in 1996 - the last time the Tories had neglected to replace schools on this scale - I saw a school hall with a steel endoskeleton to hold up the sagging roof.

    So they are concerned about these things happening. It isn't hyperbolic at all
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,664
    edited September 2023
    Eabhal said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic, the RAAC story could easily have broken under the Blair/Brown administration - it is one of those "events", and doesn't reflect at all on the competence of the incumbent administration - but it will cause more political problems for the Conservatives because it's in the twilight of its period of office, and it helpfully plays into that crumbling narrative.

    I have no doubt funding will be made available, quickly, to make any school to make it safe - but I expect a lot of temporary building closures simply because we won't have enough structural engineers to remediate them all at once.

    Though the slowdown of the schools rebuilding programme under the Conservatives is how RAAC has shifted from a problem to a crisis.

    RAAC was a perfectly reasonable material to use to build for a 30 year lifespan. What is inexcusable is to fail to plan replace those schools, hospitals and other buildings after those 30 years were up.
    It's completely ridiculous to build something that only has a 30 year shelf life though. That's the mindset behind a lot of terrible decision making in the UK. Let me fix today's problems for today and let future generations worry about the future.
    A more benign example of this is tree-planting in new developments/infrastructure projects. "Too difficult/too expensive", and that attitude pervades through the whole project.
    Hence Biodiversity Net Gain to try and force them to do such things.

    Which comes with its own set of problems, not least the convoluted rules. This adds lots of consultant costs to the process, which funnily enough was mostly designed by the industry consultants themselves...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    RobD said:

    The government doesn't care about state schools because they mostly don't use them and neither do their donors. Other people's kids. Their priority is protecting their own interests so their first instinct is how to not spend any money, not how to keep kids safe.
    If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.

    Absurd hyperbole.
    Is it? Stories in the news this morning of reports coming across various Sofas desks at the DfE and no interest. They are interested in saving money and have problems go away. Less interested in the problem.

    Now they say they will pay for portacabins. I assume some Tory contractors are lined up to like their pockets. But portacabins are terrible for learning in (I know) and cost a bomb.

    As usual we get the worst of both worlds. Crumbling Britain falls apart and we spend more than we needed to for appalling outcomes. But the right people's kids don't go to RAAC schools, and there's a profit to me made for our mates, so fuck you.

    Sorry if that description of your party upsets you. But it's self evident.
    It is hyperbole because he claimed that if only one collapse occurred, we’d be looking at another Aberfan, something that killed a hundred schoolchildren.

    Now, I’m not claiming that there’s no problem, and that it shouldn’t be dealt with earlier. But it’s just scaremongering to say a single incident would kill hundreds.
    Hmm. I wouldn't be quite so sure. What about an assembly hall, dining hall? (And there was a worrying comment in that report we were discussing yesterday - I think to the effect that designs weren't always well protected against progreesive failure (i.e. if one bit goes, the next goes and so on - as seen in Ronan Point). That could be a real issue if so.)

    But 1-10 deaths would still be huge politically, quite apart from anything else.

    One important factor is that Aberfan came out of the blue media wise, IIRC. Another is that only a few schools had bings uphill of them. RAAC is different. It's not as if the newspapers hadn't been full of stories about dangerous bings on and offfor months and years beforehand. And it's all over the place.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376
    Like the reference to The Day Today. We just need to see a minister interviewed by Peter O’Hanra-Hanrahan.

    What is the increase in the schools budget

    Einer Trenter Percenter.
  • Foxy said:

    On topic, the RAAC story could easily have broken under the Blair/Brown administration - it is one of those "events", and doesn't reflect at all on the competence of the incumbent administration - but it will cause more political problems for the Conservatives because it's in the twilight of its period of office, and it helpfully plays into that crumbling narrative.

    I have no doubt funding will be made available, quickly, to make any school to make it safe - but I expect a lot of temporary building closures simply because we won't have enough structural engineers to remediate them all at once.

    Though the slowdown of the schools rebuilding programme under the Conservatives is how RAAC has shifted from a problem to a crisis.

    RAAC was a perfectly reasonable material to use to build for a 30 year lifespan. What is inexcusable is to fail to plan replace those schools, hospitals and other buildings after those 30 years were up.
    This is simply incorrect.

    The government doesn't care about state schools because they mostly don't use them and neither do their donors. Other people's kids. Their priority is protecting their own interests so their first instinct is how to not spend any money, not how to keep kids safe.
    If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.

    Absurd hyperbole.
    You want absurd hyperbole you go and look at people bloating about Labour taking away private schools' tax dodge, like it was the end of the world. We are talking here about children's actual lives being put at risk amid an extraordinary culture of complacency. I couldn't hold this government in any lower regard already, and this latest story shocks even me.
    It's bloviating partisan nonsense, with you using it as an exercise in confirmation bias to fart out your innermost (and totally unfounded) prejudices; it's no surprise the Labour herd have crawled out the woodwork to 'like' it en-masse this morning.
    I suspect that you misread posters of all stripes who condemn this appalling administration as "the Labour herd".
    And the one surefire person who can be relied on to like all of it is you.
    I detest this dreadful Government, but if you read my posts I haven't got much positive commentary for the Labour Party, other than they are not the Conservatives, which at present is an enormous plus.

    I call out Starmer incompetence, I call out Corbynista insanity and the antisemitism of Labour Party members. I have been highly critical of historic Labour Party corruption. I frequently mention the late T. Dan Smith and the late Graham Jenkins who are just two of the Labour figures you could probably pin the aerated concrete scandal upon. Granted these brown envelope planning issues are small potatoes when compared to something as egregious as the PPE scandal. And I state, I believe through our quirky election system Sunak will jog home with a majority of 20. Yet I am the Labour herd.

    As to your Aberfan comment, that is truly awful. Educate yourself you clown. Anyway I have better things to do than justify myself to an unpleasant fool.
    You could have not bothered with the final paragraph, and I might have considered your post differently, but you just bloody couldn't help yourself, could you?

    I didn't make the Aberfan comment, your fellow rider @OnlyLivingBoy did - suggesting the Tories didn't care about the lives of state school kids - and you liked it. I just pointed out how utterly absurd this was by highlighting that event took place under a Labour government.

    You need to educate yourself, you clown; the very fact you couldn't see the irony of my post shows you to be the unpleasant fool, not me.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051
    Fishing said:

    MaxPB said:

    Over the last 26 years I've worked as a senior leader in 5 different secondary schools.

    The Government's handling of this has been dreadful. The silence about which school are affected has caused parental anxiety, and "we wanted to let school leaders tell parents first" doesn't work when some schools don't have the staff back till Monday 4th September. It's also inconsistent with how other announcements are made (eg when money is doled out for significant capital work, often a national announcement is made and the list of successful school bids is included in a spreadsheet on a website: the DfE seem happy to announce good news themselves, but seem to want to leave it to schools to announce bad news...).

    The dance music video is just bizarre.

    But the bigger picture is, I'm afraid, one of political cowardice. Our public services generally are greatly underfunded. I've seen that first-hand where I've worked. If we want school buildings that aren't prone to collapsing, or a health system where you can get to see someone (anyone) without unreasonable delay, or efficient courts, or... sorry, but we have to fund said public services appropriately.

    Maybe, given the dire state things are in, voters will vote accordingly in the next 16 months.

    Public spending has reached its highest ever level. The state is not "underfunded" we're just spending on the wrong things.
    Also spending it incredibly inefficiently in many ways. NHS diversity officers that cost as much as three nurses. Would ANYBODY rather have the former than the latter? Staggering waste.

    That will always be the case - the larger an organisation is, the more bloat and waste there is. Bloated European governments test that theory to destruction.
    Can you provide evidence of an NHS diversity officer costing three nurses?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Over the last 26 years I've worked as a senior leader in 5 different secondary schools.

    The Government's handling of this has been dreadful. The silence about which school are affected has caused parental anxiety, and "we wanted to let school leaders tell parents first" doesn't work when some schools don't have the staff back till Monday 4th September. It's also inconsistent with how other announcements are made (eg when money is doled out for significant capital work, often a national announcement is made and the list of successful school bids is included in a spreadsheet on a website: the DfE seem happy to announce good news themselves, but seem to want to leave it to schools to announce bad news...).

    The dance music video is just bizarre.

    But the bigger picture is, I'm afraid, one of political cowardice. Our public services generally are greatly underfunded. I've seen that first-hand where I've worked. If we want school buildings that aren't prone to collapsing, or a health system where you can get to see someone (anyone) without unreasonable delay, or efficient courts, or... sorry, but we have to fund said public services appropriately.

    Maybe, given the dire state things are in, voters will vote accordingly in the next 16 months.

    Public spending has reached its highest ever level. The state is not "underfunded" we're just spending on the wrong things.
    The wrong things being?
    McKinsey consultants. Neither use nor ornament in my experience.
    You ask them the time, they borrow your watch, tell you the time and keep your watch. Summary of what consultants do. Employed by those unwilling to make a decision themselves or who can't see the wood for the trees.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376
    Gorgeous, looked like a nice day for the weather as well.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376

    Eabhal said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic, the RAAC story could easily have broken under the Blair/Brown administration - it is one of those "events", and doesn't reflect at all on the competence of the incumbent administration - but it will cause more political problems for the Conservatives because it's in the twilight of its period of office, and it helpfully plays into that crumbling narrative.

    I have no doubt funding will be made available, quickly, to make any school to make it safe - but I expect a lot of temporary building closures simply because we won't have enough structural engineers to remediate them all at once.

    Though the slowdown of the schools rebuilding programme under the Conservatives is how RAAC has shifted from a problem to a crisis.

    RAAC was a perfectly reasonable material to use to build for a 30 year lifespan. What is inexcusable is to fail to plan replace those schools, hospitals and other buildings after those 30 years were up.
    It's completely ridiculous to build something that only has a 30 year shelf life though. That's the mindset behind a lot of terrible decision making in the UK. Let me fix today's problems for today and let future generations worry about the future.
    A more benign example of this is tree-planting in new developments/infrastructure projects. "Too difficult/too expensive", and that attitude pervades through the whole project.
    Hence Biodiversity Net Gain to try and force them to do such things.

    Which comes with its own set of problems, not least the convoluted rules. This adds lots of consultant costs to the process, which funnily enough was mostly designed by the industry consultants themselves...
    Trebles all round…..
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Forget everything else.

    The government asks the minister a set of questions, and puts it online as if it were a proper interview.

    The damnable, North Korean, sauce of it.

    One of the more disgraceful trends over the last decade is how no one is made available at Ministerial level to do these interviews and press conferences. It is a deliberate insult to the voting public and moral cowardice.

    They do it to attempt to kill the story by preventing "balance" as the BBC and other media cannot just put up opposition spokespeople.
    They should have sent out Grant Shapps.

    He could also then explain why a man who was caught lying to parliament, who either uses false identities or insecure passwords, who has been accused of fraud and has never in his life done a good job in an administrative department is fit to be heading the Security Service.
    To be fair on Shapps, at least he is willing to appear in public to attempt to defend the indefensible.
    He certainly has enough practice of doing so.
    Minister for the Today programme (quote from the Today programme)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829

    Fishing said:

    MaxPB said:

    Over the last 26 years I've worked as a senior leader in 5 different secondary schools.

    The Government's handling of this has been dreadful. The silence about which school are affected has caused parental anxiety, and "we wanted to let school leaders tell parents first" doesn't work when some schools don't have the staff back till Monday 4th September. It's also inconsistent with how other announcements are made (eg when money is doled out for significant capital work, often a national announcement is made and the list of successful school bids is included in a spreadsheet on a website: the DfE seem happy to announce good news themselves, but seem to want to leave it to schools to announce bad news...).

    The dance music video is just bizarre.

    But the bigger picture is, I'm afraid, one of political cowardice. Our public services generally are greatly underfunded. I've seen that first-hand where I've worked. If we want school buildings that aren't prone to collapsing, or a health system where you can get to see someone (anyone) without unreasonable delay, or efficient courts, or... sorry, but we have to fund said public services appropriately.

    Maybe, given the dire state things are in, voters will vote accordingly in the next 16 months.

    Public spending has reached its highest ever level. The state is not "underfunded" we're just spending on the wrong things.
    Also spending it incredibly inefficiently in many ways. NHS diversity officers that cost as much as three nurses. Would ANYBODY rather have the former than the latter? Staggering waste.

    That will always be the case - the larger an organisation is, the more bloat and waste there is. Bloated European governments test that theory to destruction.
    Can you provide evidence of an NHS diversity officer costing three nurses?
    Also - the name. Can just as well be called anti-discrimination officer. To meet legal requirements and targets imposed by HMG. For instance, people with disabilities.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Over the last 26 years I've worked as a senior leader in 5 different secondary schools.

    The Government's handling of this has been dreadful. The silence about which school are affected has caused parental anxiety, and "we wanted to let school leaders tell parents first" doesn't work when some schools don't have the staff back till Monday 4th September. It's also inconsistent with how other announcements are made (eg when money is doled out for significant capital work, often a national announcement is made and the list of successful school bids is included in a spreadsheet on a website: the DfE seem happy to announce good news themselves, but seem to want to leave it to schools to announce bad news...).

    The dance music video is just bizarre.

    But the bigger picture is, I'm afraid, one of political cowardice. Our public services generally are greatly underfunded. I've seen that first-hand where I've worked. If we want school buildings that aren't prone to collapsing, or a health system where you can get to see someone (anyone) without unreasonable delay, or efficient courts, or... sorry, but we have to fund said public services appropriately.

    Maybe, given the dire state things are in, voters will vote accordingly in the next 16 months.

    Public spending has reached its highest ever level. The state is not "underfunded" we're just spending on the wrong things.
    The wrong things being?
    McKinsey consultants. Neither use nor ornament in my experience.
    Well indeed. They are the first refuge of incompetent management.

    It would be interesting to know the total government spend on management consultants but I expect (hope) it is an insignificant proportion of the total spend.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632

    The government doesn't care about state schools because they mostly don't use them and neither do their donors. Other people's kids. Their priority is protecting their own interests so their first instinct is how to not spend any money, not how to keep kids safe.
    If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.

    Absurd hyperbole.
    Is it? Stories in the news this morning of reports coming across various Sofas desks at the DfE and no interest. They are interested in saving money and have problems go away. Less interested in the problem.

    Now they say they will pay for portacabins. I assume some Tory contractors are lined up to like their pockets. But portacabins are terrible for learning in (I know) and cost a bomb.

    As usual we get the worst of both worlds. Crumbling Britain falls apart and we spend more than we needed to for appalling outcomes. But the right people's kids don't go to RAAC schools, and there's a profit to me made for our mates, so fuck you.

    Sorry if that description of your party upsets you. But it's self evident.
    I had a number of lessons in portacabins, as did fox Jr. They weren't that bad, even in the Eighties, and while cold in winter were not a risk in terms of collapsing.

    We have some quite decent prefab wards in Leicester Royal Infirmary, and 5 prefab operating theatres in Leicester General which are now 10 years old but perfectly OK. Nothing new here in that in 1992 I worked on a ward built as a temporary ward in 1938 for war casualties.

    Sometimes the quality isn't there in that the modular prefab operating theatre we have at Glenfield is both very pokey and
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Taz said:

    Gorgeous, looked like a nice day for the weather as well.

    Gorgeous? Look at that all pollution spewing out of the exhaust.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,404
    edited September 2023
    Longtime bloggers on this site may be interested in the the rumbling spat between James Kelly ( once of this parish ) and The Vicar of Bath. Its bagpipes at dawn.


    https://wingsoverscotland.com/
  • Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Over the last 26 years I've worked as a senior leader in 5 different secondary schools.

    The Government's handling of this has been dreadful. The silence about which school are affected has caused parental anxiety, and "we wanted to let school leaders tell parents first" doesn't work when some schools don't have the staff back till Monday 4th September. It's also inconsistent with how other announcements are made (eg when money is doled out for significant capital work, often a national announcement is made and the list of successful school bids is included in a spreadsheet on a website: the DfE seem happy to announce good news themselves, but seem to want to leave it to schools to announce bad news...).

    The dance music video is just bizarre.

    But the bigger picture is, I'm afraid, one of political cowardice. Our public services generally are greatly underfunded. I've seen that first-hand where I've worked. If we want school buildings that aren't prone to collapsing, or a health system where you can get to see someone (anyone) without unreasonable delay, or efficient courts, or... sorry, but we have to fund said public services appropriately.

    Maybe, given the dire state things are in, voters will vote accordingly in the next 16 months.

    Public spending has reached its highest ever level. The state is not "underfunded" we're just spending on the wrong things.
    The wrong things being?
    McKinsey consultants. Neither use nor ornament in my experience.
    There is good consultancy, and bad consultancy; consultancy in itself isn't a bad thing.

    Lots of businesses, firms, third sector enterprises and major public sector bodies experience major strategic and transformation challenges - increasingly often, in today's world - where it would not be efficient or cost effective for them to retain a team of 20+ full time employees in-house as and when they arise every 5-7 years. Nor would they necessarily know the latest market innovations. So there's a definitely a place for those who do that sort of thing, and specialise in it, and rotate around industry helping clients perform one such change after another; they get experienced in it, and bring a good understanding of market trends and the latest best practice to their clients.

    Unfortunately, it can also be a feast for blue-sky thinkers and bullshitters who charge an awful lot of money but don't deliver very much, expect playing back the problem statement and some platitudes to their clients (bad consultancy) but for those who really get to know their clients and listen to them, immersing themselves in the challenge, applying themselves to the solution, and helping them co-own a change that works, it can be hugely valuable (good consultancy).

    I like to think the latter is what I do in infrastructure.

    The trouble is that the business model is hugely predicated on revenue and margin and that drives a 'land and expand' mindset and, from a career perspective, rewards those who deliver the biggest numbers, so the two get mixed up together far more often than they should.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,032
    edited September 2023


    If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.

    Aberfan happened under a Labour government.
    Factually true. But nonetheless an absolutely ridiculous and quite frankly offensive partisan post. I have never heard anyone party politicise the Aberfan disaster before today.

    Are you actually aware of the circumstances around that tragedy?
    Good morning

    I agree with you, and as a someone who became a parent for the first time 8 days after Aberfan in October 1966 the memory is seared in our mind as we held our new born son close and grieved with our fellow Welsh parents suffering such a terrible loss of their child and in some cases children

    It is not appropriate to politicise it
  • Eabhal said:

    The government doesn't care about state schools because they mostly don't use them and neither do their donors. Other people's kids. Their priority is protecting their own interests so their first instinct is how to not spend any money, not how to keep kids safe.
    If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.

    Absurd hyperbole.
    You want absurd hyperbole you go and look at people bloating about Labour taking away private schools' tax dodge, like it was the end of the world. We are talking here about children's actual lives being put at risk amid an extraordinary culture of complacency. I couldn't hold this government in any lower regard already, and this latest story shocks even me.
    It's bloviating partisan nonsense, with you using it as an exercise in confirmation bias to fart out your innermost (and totally unfounded) prejudices; it's no surprise the Labour herd have crawled out the woodwork to 'like' it en-masse this morning.
    "Don't bury the children alive" should have cross-party support, though this is probably what late-stage Conservatism looks like.
    Baaaaa.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Over the last 26 years I've worked as a senior leader in 5 different secondary schools.

    The Government's handling of this has been dreadful. The silence about which school are affected has caused parental anxiety, and "we wanted to let school leaders tell parents first" doesn't work when some schools don't have the staff back till Monday 4th September. It's also inconsistent with how other announcements are made (eg when money is doled out for significant capital work, often a national announcement is made and the list of successful school bids is included in a spreadsheet on a website: the DfE seem happy to announce good news themselves, but seem to want to leave it to schools to announce bad news...).

    The dance music video is just bizarre.

    But the bigger picture is, I'm afraid, one of political cowardice. Our public services generally are greatly underfunded. I've seen that first-hand where I've worked. If we want school buildings that aren't prone to collapsing, or a health system where you can get to see someone (anyone) without unreasonable delay, or efficient courts, or... sorry, but we have to fund said public services appropriately.

    Maybe, given the dire state things are in, voters will vote accordingly in the next 16 months.

    Public spending has reached its highest ever level. The state is not "underfunded" we're just spending on the wrong things.
    The wrong things being?
    McKinsey consultants. Neither use nor ornament in my experience.
    Well indeed. They are the first refuge of incompetent management.

    It would be interesting to know the total government spend on management consultants but I expect (hope) it is an insignificant proportion of the total spend.
    2.8bn coconuts in 2022 (not sure of precise definitions and if they meet your stipulation).

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/feb/06/ministers-quietly-scrap-limits-on-whitehall-spending-on-consultants
  • ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Forget everything else.

    The government asks the minister a set of questions, and puts it online as if it were a proper interview.

    The damnable, North Korean, sauce of it.

    One of the more disgraceful trends over the last decade is how no one is made available at Ministerial level to do these interviews and press conferences. It is a deliberate insult to the voting public and moral cowardice.

    They do it to attempt to kill the story by preventing "balance" as the BBC and other media cannot just put up opposition spokespeople.
    They should have sent out Grant Shapps.

    He could also then explain why a man who was caught lying to parliament, who either uses false identities or insecure passwords, who has been accused of fraud and has never in his life done a good job in an administrative department is fit to be heading the Security Service.
    A pedant writes: that would be Suella Braverman as Home Secretary.
    https://www.mi5.gov.uk/people-and-organisation
  • The government doesn't care about state schools because they mostly don't use them and neither do their donors. Other people's kids. Their priority is protecting their own interests so their first instinct is how to not spend any money, not how to keep kids safe.
    If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.

    Absurd hyperbole.
    Is it? Stories in the news this morning of reports coming across various Sofas desks at the DfE and no interest. They are interested in saving money and have problems go away. Less interested in the problem.

    Now they say they will pay for portacabins. I assume some Tory contractors are lined up to like their pockets. But portacabins are terrible for learning in (I know) and cost a bomb.

    As usual we get the worst of both worlds. Crumbling Britain falls apart and we spend more than we needed to for appalling outcomes. But the right people's kids don't go to RAAC schools, and there's a profit to me made for our mates, so fuck you.

    Sorry if that description of your party upsets you. But it's self evident.
    Yes, absurd hyperbole is your speciality. And that's saying something given your fellow riders.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    The Sunday Rawnsley, brought to you from the banks of the Neckar:

    what precisely is the UK’s foreign and security policy? Inconsistent is the politest description of the approach to the world pursued over 13 years of Conservative government.

    Both the soft power and the hard power of the UK have been diminished on the Tories’ watch.

    While Mr Sunak is regarded as a more reliable performer on the world stage than his immediate predecessors, he suffers from the widespread expectation that he will be booted off the cast list within a year or so.

    The appointment of Grant Shapps as the new defence secretary, his fifth cabinet post in 12 months, has angered some Conservative MPs and caused consternation among military figures because he has no expertise in the area. His loyalty to Mr Sunak and pedigree as a political attack-dog are the main reasons Mr Shapps landed the role.

    As a cash-strapped, midsized power in a dangerously unpredictable and unstable world, the UK needs to be smart at making and keeping friends, especially with other liberal democracies with similar values. Brexit has made Britain less relevant to the EU, and to all the other significant players of the world. There’s no escaping that bitter truth, however many air miles Mr Sunak clocks up.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051
    Foxy said:

    The government doesn't care about state schools because they mostly don't use them and neither do their donors. Other people's kids. Their priority is protecting their own interests so their first instinct is how to not spend any money, not how to keep kids safe.
    If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.

    Absurd hyperbole.
    Is it? Stories in the news this morning of reports coming across various Sofas desks at the DfE and no interest. They are interested in saving money and have problems go away. Less interested in the problem.

    Now they say they will pay for portacabins. I assume some Tory contractors are lined up to like their pockets. But portacabins are terrible for learning in (I know) and cost a bomb.

    As usual we get the worst of both worlds. Crumbling Britain falls apart and we spend more than we needed to for appalling outcomes. But the right people's kids don't go to RAAC schools, and there's a profit to me made for our mates, so fuck you.

    Sorry if that description of your party upsets you. But it's self evident.
    I had a number of lessons in portacabins, as did fox Jr. They weren't that bad, even in the Eighties, and while cold in winter were not a risk in terms of collapsing.

    We have some quite decent prefab wards in Leicester Royal Infirmary, and 5 prefab operating theatres in Leicester General which are now 10 years old but perfectly OK. Nothing new here in that in 1992 I worked on a ward built as a temporary ward in 1938 for war casualties.

    Sometimes the quality isn't there in that the modular prefab operating theatre we have at Glenfield is both very pokey and
    I’ve been doing some teaching in a prefab hospital education centre. It’s lovely. It’s prefab because they don’t have planning permission for a permanent structure, but can have a temporary one!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    edited September 2023
    Foxy said:

    The government doesn't care about state schools because they mostly don't use them and neither do their donors. Other people's kids. Their priority is protecting their own interests so their first instinct is how to not spend any money, not how to keep kids safe.
    If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.

    Absurd hyperbole.
    Is it? Stories in the news this morning of reports coming across various Sofas desks at the DfE and no interest. They are interested in saving money and have problems go away. Less interested in the problem.

    Now they say they will pay for portacabins. I assume some Tory contractors are lined up to like their pockets. But portacabins are terrible for learning in (I know) and cost a bomb.

    As usual we get the worst of both worlds. Crumbling Britain falls apart and we spend more than we needed to for appalling outcomes. But the right people's kids don't go to RAAC schools, and there's a profit to me made for our mates, so fuck you.

    Sorry if that description of your party upsets you. But it's self evident.
    I had a number of lessons in portacabins, as did fox Jr. They weren't that bad, even in the Eighties, and while cold in winter were not a risk in terms of collapsing.

    We have some quite decent prefab wards in Leicester Royal Infirmary, and 5 prefab operating theatres in Leicester General which are now 10 years old but perfectly OK. Nothing new here in that in 1992 I worked on a ward built as a temporary ward in 1938 for war casualties.

    Sometimes the quality isn't there in that the modular prefab operating theatre we have at Glenfield is both very pokey and
    Twas ever thus - lessons in a portakabin for me in the 60s.

    (Many years ago, not long after Mrs P. and I got together, we were driving past a Portakabin and she asked: 'Why are they called Por-Take-a-Bins?')
  • MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic, the RAAC story could easily have broken under the Blair/Brown administration - it is one of those "events", and doesn't reflect at all on the competence of the incumbent administration - but it will cause more political problems for the Conservatives because it's in the twilight of its period of office, and it helpfully plays into that crumbling narrative.

    I have no doubt funding will be made available, quickly, to make any school to make it safe - but I expect a lot of temporary building closures simply because we won't have enough structural engineers to remediate them all at once.

    Though the slowdown of the schools rebuilding programme under the Conservatives is how RAAC has shifted from a problem to a crisis.

    RAAC was a perfectly reasonable material to use to build for a 30 year lifespan. What is inexcusable is to fail to plan replace those schools, hospitals and other buildings after those 30 years were up.
    It's completely ridiculous to build something that only has a 30 year shelf life though. That's the mindset behind a lot of terrible decision making in the UK. Let me fix today's problems for today and let future generations worry about the future.
    It is more like "fix today's problems today and let future generations pay for it".
  • This video is like the sort of guff companies put up on their Intranet. "Five minutes with the CFO" where we learn their favourite pizza topping and the name of their cat.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829


    If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.

    Aberfan happened under a Labour government.
    Factually true. But nonetheless an absolutely ridiculous and quite frankly offensive partisan post. I have never heard anyone party politicise the Aberfan disaster before today.

    Are you actually aware of the circumstances around that tragedy?
    Good morning

    I agree with you, and as a someone who became a parent for the first time 8 days after Aberfan in October 1966 the memory is seared in our mind as we held our new born son close and grieved with our fellow Welsh parents suffering such a terrible loss of their child and in some cases children

    It is not appropriate to politicise it
    It's legitimate to discuss it for the lessons it teaches us (as Cyclefree has been showing) about how it happened. But also to remind those who weren't around at the time of its impact at the time, as you and I well remember.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051

    This video is like the sort of guff companies put up on their Intranet. "Five minutes with the CFO" where we learn their favourite pizza topping and the name of their cat.

    Personally, I want to know the CFO’s cat’s name.
  • Foxy said:

    The government doesn't care about state schools because they mostly don't use them and neither do their donors. Other people's kids. Their priority is protecting their own interests so their first instinct is how to not spend any money, not how to keep kids safe.
    If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.

    Absurd hyperbole.
    Is it? Stories in the news this morning of reports coming across various Sofas desks at the DfE and no interest. They are interested in saving money and have problems go away. Less interested in the problem.

    Now they say they will pay for portacabins. I assume some Tory contractors are lined up to like their pockets. But portacabins are terrible for learning in (I know) and cost a bomb.

    As usual we get the worst of both worlds. Crumbling Britain falls apart and we spend more than we needed to for appalling outcomes. But the right people's kids don't go to RAAC schools, and there's a profit to me made for our mates, so fuck you.

    Sorry if that description of your party upsets you. But it's self evident.
    I had a number of lessons in portacabins, as did fox Jr. They weren't that bad, even in the Eighties, and while cold in winter were not a risk in terms of collapsing.

    We have some quite decent prefab wards in Leicester Royal Infirmary, and 5 prefab operating theatres in Leicester General which are now 10 years old but perfectly OK. Nothing new here in that in 1992 I worked on a ward built as a temporary ward in 1938 for war casualties.

    Sometimes the quality isn't there in that the modular prefab operating theatre we have at Glenfield is both very pokey and
    Twas ever thus - lessons in a portakabin for me in the 60s.

    (Many years ago, not long after Mrs P. and I got together, we were driving past a Portakabin and she asked: 'Why are they called Por-Take-a-Bins?')
    I was educated in temporary classrooms between 1954 and when I left in 1960
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Over the last 26 years I've worked as a senior leader in 5 different secondary schools.

    The Government's handling of this has been dreadful. The silence about which school are affected has caused parental anxiety, and "we wanted to let school leaders tell parents first" doesn't work when some schools don't have the staff back till Monday 4th September. It's also inconsistent with how other announcements are made (eg when money is doled out for significant capital work, often a national announcement is made and the list of successful school bids is included in a spreadsheet on a website: the DfE seem happy to announce good news themselves, but seem to want to leave it to schools to announce bad news...).

    The dance music video is just bizarre.

    But the bigger picture is, I'm afraid, one of political cowardice. Our public services generally are greatly underfunded. I've seen that first-hand where I've worked. If we want school buildings that aren't prone to collapsing, or a health system where you can get to see someone (anyone) without unreasonable delay, or efficient courts, or... sorry, but we have to fund said public services appropriately.

    Maybe, given the dire state things are in, voters will vote accordingly in the next 16 months.

    Public spending has reached its highest ever level. The state is not "underfunded" we're just spending on the wrong things.
    The wrong things being?
    McKinsey consultants. Neither use nor ornament in my experience.
    There is good consultancy, and bad consultancy; consultancy in itself isn't a bad thing.

    Lots of businesses, firms, third sector enterprises and major public sector bodies experience major strategic and transformation challenges - increasingly often, in today's world - where it would not be efficient or cost effective for them to retain a team of 20+ full time employees in-house as and when they arise every 5-7 years. Nor would they necessarily know the latest market innovations. So there's a definitely a place for those who do that sort of thing, and specialise in it, and rotate around industry helping clients perform one such change after another; they get experienced in it, and bring a good understanding of market trends and the latest best practice to their clients.

    Unfortunately, it can also be a feast for blue-sky thinkers and bullshitters who charge an awful lot of money but don't deliver very much, expect playing back the problem statement and some platitudes to their clients (bad consultancy) but for those who really get to know their clients and listen to them, immersing themselves in the challenge, applying themselves to the solution, and helping them co-own a change that works, it can be hugely valuable (good consultancy).

    I like to think the latter is what I do in infrastructure.

    The trouble is that the business model is hugely predicated on revenue and margin and that drives a 'land and expand' mindset and, from a career perspective, rewards those who deliver the biggest numbers, so the two get mixed up together far more often than they should.
    Well I am, I suppose, a consultant. But a good one because I have actual experience of and knowledge about what I am advising on. And have actually done what I advise clients to do.

    But a lot of so-called management consultants know fuck all about anything, have done even less and charge enormous fees for bugger all.

    Anyway must be off - busy day ahead.

  • .


    If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.

    Aberfan happened under a Labour government.
    Factually true. But nonetheless an absolutely ridiculous and quite frankly offensive partisan post. I have never heard anyone party politicise the Aberfan disaster before today.

    Are you actually aware of the circumstances around that tragedy?
    Good morning

    I agree with you, and as a someone who became a parent for the first time 8 days after Aberfan in October 1966 the memory is seared in our mind as we held our new born son close and grieved with our fellow Welsh parents suffering such a terrible loss of their child and in some cases children

    It is not appropriate to politicise it
    Exactly right.

    @OnlyLivingBoy politicised it upthread. I then turned a mirror right back on it (to make that very point) and then @Mexicanpete cried blue murder.

    It just shows how lacking in self-awareness and objectivity he is.
  • Fishing said:

    MaxPB said:

    Over the last 26 years I've worked as a senior leader in 5 different secondary schools.

    The Government's handling of this has been dreadful. The silence about which school are affected has caused parental anxiety, and "we wanted to let school leaders tell parents first" doesn't work when some schools don't have the staff back till Monday 4th September. It's also inconsistent with how other announcements are made (eg when money is doled out for significant capital work, often a national announcement is made and the list of successful school bids is included in a spreadsheet on a website: the DfE seem happy to announce good news themselves, but seem to want to leave it to schools to announce bad news...).

    The dance music video is just bizarre.

    But the bigger picture is, I'm afraid, one of political cowardice. Our public services generally are greatly underfunded. I've seen that first-hand where I've worked. If we want school buildings that aren't prone to collapsing, or a health system where you can get to see someone (anyone) without unreasonable delay, or efficient courts, or... sorry, but we have to fund said public services appropriately.

    Maybe, given the dire state things are in, voters will vote accordingly in the next 16 months.

    Public spending has reached its highest ever level. The state is not "underfunded" we're just spending on the wrong things.
    Also spending it incredibly inefficiently in many ways. NHS diversity officers that cost as much as three nurses. Would ANYBODY rather have the former than the latter? Staggering waste.

    That will always be the case - the larger an organisation is, the more bloat and waste there is. Bloated European governments test that theory to destruction.
    There are now about 100,000 civil servants more than in June 2016. Now what event in June 2016 could have caused this?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,404
    IanB2 said:

    The Sunday Rawnsley, brought to you from the banks of the Neckar:

    what precisely is the UK’s foreign and security policy? Inconsistent is the politest description of the approach to the world pursued over 13 years of Conservative government.

    Both the soft power and the hard power of the UK have been diminished on the Tories’ watch.

    While Mr Sunak is regarded as a more reliable performer on the world stage than his immediate predecessors, he suffers from the widespread expectation that he will be booted off the cast list within a year or so.

    The appointment of Grant Shapps as the new defence secretary, his fifth cabinet post in 12 months, has angered some Conservative MPs and caused consternation among military figures because he has no expertise in the area. His loyalty to Mr Sunak and pedigree as a political attack-dog are the main reasons Mr Shapps landed the role.

    As a cash-strapped, midsized power in a dangerously unpredictable and unstable world, the UK needs to be smart at making and keeping friends, especially with other liberal democracies with similar values. Brexit has made Britain less relevant to the EU, and to all the other significant players of the world. There’s no escaping that bitter truth, however many air miles Mr Sunak clocks up.

    What total shite.

    What is Rawnsley going to do when SKS is faced with the same set of issues and has even less ability to do anything ? Whacko Blairites claiming they have "influence" is simply a way of pretending they can do things they cant.

  • Foxy said:

    On topic, the RAAC story could easily have broken under the Blair/Brown administration - it is one of those "events", and doesn't reflect at all on the competence of the incumbent administration - but it will cause more political problems for the Conservatives because it's in the twilight of its period of office, and it helpfully plays into that crumbling narrative.

    I have no doubt funding will be made available, quickly, to make any school to make it safe - but I expect a lot of temporary building closures simply because we won't have enough structural engineers to remediate them all at once.

    Though the slowdown of the schools rebuilding programme under the Conservatives is how RAAC has shifted from a problem to a crisis.

    RAAC was a perfectly reasonable material to use to build for a 30 year lifespan. What is inexcusable is to fail to plan replace those schools, hospitals and other buildings after those 30 years were up.
    This is simply incorrect.
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Over the last 26 years I've worked as a senior leader in 5 different secondary schools.

    The Government's handling of this has been dreadful. The silence about which school are affected has caused parental anxiety, and "we wanted to let school leaders tell parents first" doesn't work when some schools don't have the staff back till Monday 4th September. It's also inconsistent with how other announcements are made (eg when money is doled out for significant capital work, often a national announcement is made and the list of successful school bids is included in a spreadsheet on a website: the DfE seem happy to announce good news themselves, but seem to want to leave it to schools to announce bad news...).

    The dance music video is just bizarre.

    But the bigger picture is, I'm afraid, one of political cowardice. Our public services generally are greatly underfunded. I've seen that first-hand where I've worked. If we want school buildings that aren't prone to collapsing, or a health system where you can get to see someone (anyone) without unreasonable delay, or efficient courts, or... sorry, but we have to fund said public services appropriately.

    Maybe, given the dire state things are in, voters will vote accordingly in the next 16 months.

    Public spending has reached its highest ever level. The state is not "underfunded" we're just spending on the wrong things.
    The wrong things being?
    McKinsey consultants. Neither use nor ornament in my experience.
    There is good consultancy, and bad consultancy; consultancy in itself isn't a bad thing.

    Lots of businesses, firms, third sector enterprises and major public sector bodies experience major strategic and transformation challenges - increasingly often, in today's world - where it would not be efficient or cost effective for them to retain a team of 20+ full time employees in-house as and when they arise every 5-7 years. Nor would they necessarily know the latest market innovations. So there's a definitely a place for those who do that sort of thing, and specialise in it, and rotate around industry helping clients perform one such change after another; they get experienced in it, and bring a good understanding of market trends and the latest best practice to their clients.

    Unfortunately, it can also be a feast for blue-sky thinkers and bullshitters who charge an awful lot of money but don't deliver very much, expect playing back the problem statement and some platitudes to their clients (bad consultancy) but for those who really get to know their clients and listen to them, immersing themselves in the challenge, applying themselves to the solution, and helping them co-own a change that works, it can be hugely valuable (good consultancy).

    I like to think the latter is what I do in infrastructure.

    The trouble is that the business model is hugely predicated on revenue and margin and that drives a 'land and expand' mindset and, from a career perspective, rewards those who deliver the biggest numbers, so the two get mixed up together far more often than they should.
    Well I am, I suppose, a consultant. But a good one because I have actual experience of and knowledge about what I am advising on. And have actually done what I advise clients to do.

    But a lot of so-called management consultants know fuck all about anything, have done even less and charge enormous fees for bugger all.

    Anyway must be off - busy day ahead.

    Enjoy your day.

    I am one too but my career is significantly behind because I don't deliver the big numbers because, and I quote, I am "totally committed to the client".

    Well, umm, err, shouldn't we all be?

    It works for me at the moment, and I think I make a difference. We'll see how it goes longer-term.

    I need to head off with the kids myself now too.
  • Taz said:

    Gorgeous, looked like a nice day for the weather as well.

    Gorgeous? Look at that all pollution spewing out of the exhaust.
    Clagtastic.

    Fortunately, the Worth Valley is outside of the Bradford ULEZ.

    You should have seen what was being emitting by the steam loco.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310


    If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.

    Aberfan happened under a Labour government.
    Factually true. But nonetheless an absolutely ridiculous and quite frankly offensive partisan post. I have never heard anyone party politicise the Aberfan disaster before today.

    Are you actually aware of the circumstances around that tragedy?
    Good morning

    I agree with you, and as a someone who became a parent for the first time 8 days after Aberfan in October 1966 the memory is seared in our mind as we held our new born son close and grieved with our fellow Welsh parents suffering such a terrible loss of their child and in some cases children

    It is not appropriate to politicise it
    But it is appropriate to learn the lessons from it. And, sadly, those lessons are still applicable today and are still not being learnt, which is why we get repetitions of scandals affecting people who are then treated by public services and public servants with contempt and callousness.

    If you don't believe me read this - https://www.cyclefree.co.uk/the-price-of-indifference/.
  • Carnyx said:


    If one of these schools collapses you're looking at another Aberfan. Incredible that they seem willing to risk that. Other people's kids.

    Aberfan happened under a Labour government.
    Factually true. But nonetheless an absolutely ridiculous and quite frankly offensive partisan post. I have never heard anyone party politicise the Aberfan disaster before today.

    Are you actually aware of the circumstances around that tragedy?
    Good morning

    I agree with you, and as a someone who became a parent for the first time 8 days after Aberfan in October 1966 the memory is seared in our mind as we held our new born son close and grieved with our fellow Welsh parents suffering such a terrible loss of their child and in some cases children

    It is not appropriate to politicise it
    It's legitimate to discuss it for the lessons it teaches us (as Cyclefree has been showing) about how it happened. But also to remind those who weren't around at the time of its impact at the time, as you and I well remember.
    Indeed and it was horrific

    A neighbour painted a huge mural depicting each child, taken from photographs supplied by the parents, ascending into the arms of Christ

    It was very moving
This discussion has been closed.