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The only lesson. – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,398

    I am furious about some of the nasty and sexist comments on Cyclefree's post. Quite a few of the culprits will be banned

    Why bother Mike if they just reappear a day or so later with a different name ?

    I get your fury and it makes you wonder why anyone would write a thread in the first place !
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    eekeek Posts: 25,093
    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    My morning after the day before fear is that Lucy Letby becomes the black swan to deliver the Conservatives another landslide.

    Are Rishi and Suella really cynical enough to use the Letby case as reason enough to call for the ultimate sanction? Who wouldn't vote to see Lucy Letby's televised hanging by the neck until dead? I am not sure about Sunak, but I would bet my boots the thought has already entered Suella's head.

    The death penalty would be the easy way out. She should spend her life thinking about her actions.

    And if God forbid the CPS have got it wrong, they have killed the wrong person.
    I would have to consider leaving the UK were the death penalty reinstated. My point was, do you think this awful version of what was once the Conservative Party would consider such a ploy to keep themselves in power? I certainly think some would.
    You would run into me at Heathrow in those circumstances. If the Tories go full fruit loop after a 2024/5 defeat I think you could well find them embracing string em up. I don't think they'll go there this election cycle, but who knows, if they get desperate enough they may see it as a last throw of the dice and a chance to hold on in parts of the Red Wall. Power is all that matters.
    Withdrawal from the ECHR and reintroduction of the death penalty feels more like a stunt they will try in opposition where they don't have to deal with the consequences.
    In the light of the Letby case being so topical, going for broke sooner rather than later gives them a win over ECHR membership as well as a probable electoral victory. My question remains, are they cynical enough?
    You really should relax. Your imagination is getting the better of you. Nobody will try to reintroduce the death penalty, and even if they did it wouldn't get through Parliament. And no, there wouldn't be a referendum.

    Also, whatever the polling on the subject says, I don't actually think that a reintroduction would go down very well with the GBP in 2023, once the pros and cons were debated properly.
    "Suella DeVil, Suella DeVil if she doesn't scare you, no evil thing will".

    I expect you to eat humble pie when a referendum makes the next Conservative Party manifesto.
    +1 I can easily see the Tory party thinking
    One hell of an assumption there...
    Good point well made, except if a vote on the death penalty did appear in their manifesto it would be because some, but not much thought, had been put into the idea.

    I.e. enough to see votes in it but not enough to see the consequences. Would make a lovely double whammy though - we will leave the ECHR to allow a vote on the death penalty..
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,976
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I am furious about some of the nasty and sexist comments on Cyclefree's post. Quite a few of the culprits will be banned

    With your permission OGH can I also add:

    Anybody who complains about the length of a Cyclefree header is an idiot. They're not long except compared to the average Tweet, and if they were shorter they would be much less informative.

    Cyclefree is an expert in these areas, far more so than any journalist. PB is damn lucky to have her insight and we're all much the poorer for her being constantly bullied off below the line comments.
    It's not even a long header
    If people want a long header I can do a review of the cricket season in a few weeks.
    Sounds a sticky wicket.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,890
    edited August 2023
    Wasn’t this supposed to be NHS week for the government?

    Grim irony, if so.
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    DougSeal said:

    "Probable"? I know you push this line a lot but you have to admit it is deeply against the grain of betting markets' estimations of probability, not to mention the commentary of those on both sides of the divide, opinion polling and recent elections - even the Uxbridge swing replicated across the country would not win the election for the Tories.

    I think Pete provides another interesting, if very "out there" perspective. And this site would be worse without him, he has supported me through many a hard time.

    I absolutely think if it was offered the public would vote for the death penalty. But that's why we elect politicians to stop us from being able to vote for stupid ideas.

    It's not out of the question the Tories could win again, I still think a Hung Parliament is a very likely outcome and so a small swing back might yet happen and keep Rishi in Downing Street.

    Anyway glad to have you back posting Doug.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,812
    ydoethur said:

    I am furious about some of the nasty and sexist comments on Cyclefree's post. Quite a few of the culprits will be banned

    With your permission OGH can I also add:

    Anybody who complains about the length of a Cyclefree header is an idiot. They're not long except compared to the average Tweet, and if they were shorter they would be much less informative.

    Cyclefree is an expert in these areas, far more so than any journalist. PB is damn lucky to have her insight and we're all much the poorer for her being constantly bullied off below the line comments.
    My post defending her was deleted.

    I presume that's because I dropped the f-bomb, but it was in frustration at the same/similar people having a go at her yet again, which yanked my chain.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,398

    ydoethur said:

    I am furious about some of the nasty and sexist comments on Cyclefree's post. Quite a few of the culprits will be banned

    With your permission OGH can I also add:

    Anybody who complains about the length of a Cyclefree header is an idiot. They're not long except compared to the average Tweet, and if they were shorter they would be much less informative.

    Cyclefree is an expert in these areas, far more so than any journalist. PB is damn lucky to have her insight and we're all much the poorer for her being constantly bullied off below the line comments.
    May I also add that if one doesn't like the length, substance or style of any particular header, it's really not difficult to keep one's thoughts to oneself rather than sharing them with other posters? Courtesy is no bad thing.
    I think debating the substance is fair game, even of a header. The rest I agree with as well as your final sentence.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,890
    Twitter or X or whatever it is, is soooo shite now.
    I really mourn the loss of little pools of expertise on any given topic. My timeline is just crowded with utter crud.

    Elon Musk is a giant tit.
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    CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    edited August 2023

    ydoethur said:

    I am furious about some of the nasty and sexist comments on Cyclefree's post. Quite a few of the culprits will be banned

    With your permission OGH can I also add:

    Anybody who complains about the length of a Cyclefree header is an idiot. They're not long except compared to the average Tweet, and if they were shorter they would be much less informative.

    Cyclefree is an expert in these areas, far more so than any journalist. PB is damn lucky to have her insight and we're all much the poorer for her being constantly bullied off below the line comments.
    My post defending her was deleted.

    I presume that's because I dropped the f-bomb, but it was in frustration at the same/similar people having a go at her yet again, which yanked my chain.
    I am bemused why your post was deleted. I didn't agree with a lot of it but there was nothing unreasonable in there. I think Mike should have it reinstated if possible, loads of us drop the f-bomb and don't have our posts deleted.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,890

    ydoethur said:

    I am furious about some of the nasty and sexist comments on Cyclefree's post. Quite a few of the culprits will be banned

    With your permission OGH can I also add:

    Anybody who complains about the length of a Cyclefree header is an idiot. They're not long except compared to the average Tweet, and if they were shorter they would be much less informative.

    Cyclefree is an expert in these areas, far more so than any journalist. PB is damn lucky to have her insight and we're all much the poorer for her being constantly bullied off below the line comments.
    My post defending her was deleted.

    I presume that's because I dropped the f-bomb, but it was in frustration at the same/similar people having a go at her yet again, which yanked my chain.
    It’s a single person, who can’t be bothered, so far as I can tell, to write a header himself.
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,352
    edited August 2023
    Dr Fox,

    Karen Armstrong - that's a blast from the past, but I agree with your vedict. As an ex-nun. she has a reason to complain of misogyny, but she's a bright woman.

    Psychiatry does seem like to classifying and re-classifying things without getting to the nub of the problem. You're right about it's dependence on subjective observation. Sociology, and to some extent psychology, have the same fault. Even quantum physics suffers from it a little. Hence the 'Copenhagen' interpretation.

    What will be will be. We'll muddle through the global climate problem eventually. Whether brain levels of serotonin are signicant in depression or not.



  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024
    kle4 said:

    China solves problem of rising youth unemployment: they’re not going to report the figures any more.

    https://www.ft.com/content/a14ef388-5fea-4696-9791-0379b37e68bf

    Surprised it took a delusional dictatorship this long to just say 'F*ck it'. Just fake them already, who's going to complain?
    Nothing ever goes horribly wrong in countries with a large number of disaffected young men with no jobs and no wives…
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    StockyStocky Posts: 9,736

    ydoethur said:

    I am furious about some of the nasty and sexist comments on Cyclefree's post. Quite a few of the culprits will be banned

    With your permission OGH can I also add:

    Anybody who complains about the length of a Cyclefree header is an idiot. They're not long except compared to the average Tweet, and if they were shorter they would be much less informative.

    Cyclefree is an expert in these areas, far more so than any journalist. PB is damn lucky to have her insight and we're all much the poorer for her being constantly bullied off below the line comments.
    My post defending her was deleted.

    I presume that's because I dropped the f-bomb, but it was in frustration at the same/similar people having a go at her yet again, which yanked my chain.
    Ha - I've been trying to find it so I can "like" it. Thought I was going potty.

    Which still may be true.
  • Options
    eek said:

    Good point well made, except if a vote on the death penalty did appear in their manifesto it would be because some, but not much thought, had been put into the idea.

    I.e. enough to see votes in it but not enough to see the consequences. Would make a lovely double whammy though - we will leave the ECHR to allow a vote on the death penalty..

    The Tories delivered Brexit, I am not sure they are big on "thinking through" their ideas. It is all about sticking it to the libs nowadays and winning the next election. Delivery and actual changes are mostly irrelevant to this lot.

    I absolutely think they will try it, leaving the ECHR seems almost certainly to be in the manifesto in any case. I am old enough to remember when it was assured that Brexit would not lead to a backsliding in standards and human rights...
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087
    edited August 2023
    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    China solves problem of rising youth unemployment: they’re not going to report the figures any more.

    https://www.ft.com/content/a14ef388-5fea-4696-9791-0379b37e68bf

    Surprised it took a delusional dictatorship this long to just say 'F*ck it'. Just fake them already, who's going to complain?
    Nothing ever goes horribly wrong in countries with a large number of disaffected young men with no jobs and no wives…
    Nothing a whole lot of disappearing into 'reeducation' camps cannot fix. Won't help the demographic problems they're apparently likely to have in about 20-30 years, but needs must.
  • Options

    Good morning

    @Cyclefree again demonstrates her importance to this forum and I hope she continues to contribute as her opinions are very useful

    I do not subscribe to the reintroduction of the death penalty nor have I heard it suggested

    Letby will spend the rest of her life behind bars and that is entirely justified

    I wonder if you'd change your tune if it was a way to have SKS lose an election.

    Just like you implied yesterday that I supported Letby, I think you will stop at nothing to see the Tories win.
    Absolutely not and it does you no credit to even suggest it
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,384

    I am furious about some of the nasty and sexist comments on Cyclefree's post. Quite a few of the culprits will be banned

    Eh? A quick scan of the thread finds only one critic and that was a hackneyed and inaccurate rant about length. The rest have been grateful and/or supportive of Cyclefree.
    Perhaps OGH sensibly doesn’t much bother reading below the line.
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    CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    edited August 2023

    Good morning

    @Cyclefree again demonstrates her importance to this forum and I hope she continues to contribute as her opinions are very useful

    I do not subscribe to the reintroduction of the death penalty nor have I heard it suggested

    Letby will spend the rest of her life behind bars and that is entirely justified

    I wonder if you'd change your tune if it was a way to have SKS lose an election.

    Just like you implied yesterday that I supported Letby, I think you will stop at nothing to see the Tories win.
    Absolutely not and it does you no credit to even suggest it
    You absolutely did:

    Why should anyone have anonymity for life for such heinous crimes

    The parents who must be in utter despair and pain should be the focus of our care, not Letby


    I hope you will apologise.

    I will now go back to ignoring certain people but I just could not let this kind of absurd accusation fly. Apologies to the other members for interrupting their conversation.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087
    edited August 2023

    Twitter or X or whatever it is, is soooo shite now.
    I really mourn the loss of little pools of expertise on any given topic. My timeline is just crowded with utter crud.

    Elon Musk is a giant tit.

    Nah, he's a super genius, and if you dare suggest that even if he is a genius in one fieldhe might still be a boorish self aggrandizing fool acting out a midlife crisis in others, you are just a hater with Musk derangment syndrome.

    As a non user I am fascinted to learn people's timelines were not always crowded with crud though.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,890
    China’s suppression of youth unemployment statistics s is another reason why I’m a “China bear”.

    Crap economy, crap demography, crap politics.
    Their diplomacy is also shit, as they seem to have alienated most of their neighbours in recent years.

    It seems like a long time since Chairman Xi was enjoying a pint in the Cotswolds.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024
    kle4 said:

    NHS management seems utterly oblivious to The Public Interest Disclosure Act 2010

    They are far from alone. Whistleblowing rules are a complete joke most of the time for the rather obvious reason that you need them because organisations will want to punish people for doing it, and a piece of paper saying they won't does not eliminate the desire to punish, so a way will be found.

    It’s really not difficult, but it requires a change of mindset from management.

    Find an industry where it works - aviation, railways, nuclear power stations - and learn from them.

    I’m sure there’s a load of consultants out there like @Cyclefree, who have worked in settings with no-blame culture and can advise how things need to change.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,456
    edited August 2023

    Good morning

    @Cyclefree again demonstrates her importance to this forum and I hope she continues to contribute as her opinions are very useful

    I do not subscribe to the reintroduction of the death penalty nor have I heard it suggested

    Letby will spend the rest of her life behind bars and that is entirely justified

    I wonder if you'd change your tune if it was a way to have SKS lose an election.

    Just like you implied yesterday that I supported Letby, I think you will stop at nothing to see the Tories win.
    Absolutely not and it does you no credit to even suggest it
    You absolutely did:

    Why should anyone have anonymity for life for such heinous crimes

    The parents who must be in utter despair and pain should be the focus of our care, not Letby

    I hope you will apologise.

    I will now go back to ignoring certain people but I just could not let this kind of absurd accusation fly. Apologies to the other members for interrupting their conversation.

    I have nothing to apologise for
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    Twitter or X or whatever it is, is soooo shite now.
    I really mourn the loss of little pools of expertise on any given topic. My timeline is just crowded with utter crud.

    Elon Musk is a giant tit.

    Nah, he's a super genius, and if you dare suggest that even if he is a genius in one fieldhe might still be a boorish self aggrandizing fool acting out a midlife crisis in others, you are just a hater with Musk derangment syndrome.

    As a non user I am fascinted to learn people's timelines were not always crowded with crud though.
    He's trying to remove the block button as his next move.

    As of yesterday I have sold all my remaining Tesla stock. I made a nice-ish profit since 2016 but I just cannot support Elon anymore when he is so unpredictable.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087
    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    NHS management seems utterly oblivious to The Public Interest Disclosure Act 2010

    They are far from alone. Whistleblowing rules are a complete joke most of the time for the rather obvious reason that you need them because organisations will want to punish people for doing it, and a piece of paper saying they won't does not eliminate the desire to punish, so a way will be found.

    It’s really not difficult, but it requires a change of mindset from management.

    Find an industry where it works - aviation, railways, nuclear power stations - and learn from them.

    I’m sure there’s a load of consultants out there like @Cyclefree, who have worked in settings with no-blame culture and can advise how things need to change.
    Most things which are hard are still not as hard as people think, when it comes to changing how people act - a few key people in the right place, commitment and drive to achieve it, and people will go with the flow of a good culture as much as they do with a bad one. I dare say I don't challenge enough of the worse aspects of my own workplace's culture for sake of a quiet life.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,543

    Twitter or X or whatever it is, is soooo shite now.
    I really mourn the loss of little pools of expertise on any given topic. My timeline is just crowded with utter crud.

    Elon Musk is a giant tit.

    You mean, he's being milked for vast amounts?

    Although he seems to be trying to milk Twitter, not very capably.
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    I am furious about some of the nasty and sexist comments on Cyclefree's post. Quite a few of the culprits will be banned

    Eh? A quick scan of the thread finds only one critic and that was a hackneyed and inaccurate rant about length. The rest have been grateful and/or supportive of Cyclefree.
    Perhaps OGH sensibly doesn’t much bother reading below the line.
    LOL. Tbf, it could be the mods deleted any truly offensive posts already but...
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    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,371
    kle4 said:

    NHS management seems utterly oblivious to The Public Interest Disclosure Act 2010

    They are far from alone. Whistleblowing rules are a complete joke most of the time for the rather obvious reason that you need them because organisations will want to punish people for doing it, and a piece of paper saying they won't does not eliminate the desire to punish, so a way will be found.

    Well, given the Public Interest Disclosure Act 2010 is an act of the Queensland Legislature, the NHS can safely ignore it. It's the Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998 they have to worry about.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,583

    Twitter or X or whatever it is, is soooo shite now.
    I really mourn the loss of little pools of expertise on any given topic. My timeline is just crowded with utter crud.

    Elon Musk is a giant tit.

    I know twitter has always had its problems and weaknesses, but I think it brought some value to the world in being a place where subject matter experts could share their knowledge with the intermediate layer of the media. That value seems to have been completely destroyed now so that Musk could have an echo chamber of sycophants.

    I think it's one of the most public demonstrations of the raw power that great wealth bestows.

    Most of the time rich people try to be more subtle about it.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087

    China’s suppression of youth unemployment statistics s is another reason why I’m a “China bear”.

    Crap economy, crap demography, crap politics.
    Their diplomacy is also shit, as they seem to have alienated most of their neighbours in recent years.

    It seems like a long time since Chairman Xi was enjoying a pint in the Cotswolds.

    I saw one take which was that various looming issues was such that China will be at its peak strength within this decade, after which it runs into quite a lot of problems, which is one reason the end of this decade is the key moment for Taiwan (Emperor Xi will also be in his later 70s by then and in his fourth term, so will be feeling the weight of expectatiosnby then).
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,464

    Twitter or X or whatever it is, is soooo shite now.
    I really mourn the loss of little pools of expertise on any given topic. My timeline is just crowded with utter crud.

    Elon Musk is a giant tit.

    I know twitter has always had its problems and weaknesses, but I think it brought some value to the world in being a place where subject matter experts could share their knowledge with the intermediate layer of the media. That value seems to have been completely destroyed now so that Musk could have an echo chamber of sycophants.

    I think it's one of the most public demonstrations of the raw power that great wealth bestows.

    Most of the time rich people try to be more subtle about it.
    And yet the market will work it out. Sooner or later, a viable, better alternative will be developed - and when it is, Twitter will go the way of MySpace.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087
    DougSeal said:

    kle4 said:

    NHS management seems utterly oblivious to The Public Interest Disclosure Act 2010

    They are far from alone. Whistleblowing rules are a complete joke most of the time for the rather obvious reason that you need them because organisations will want to punish people for doing it, and a piece of paper saying they won't does not eliminate the desire to punish, so a way will be found.

    Well, given the Public Interest Disclosure Act 2010 is an act of the Queensland Legislature, the NHS can safely ignore it. It's the Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998 they have to worry about.
    Ha!

    I withdraw all my criticisms.
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    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,638
    edited August 2023
    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    NHS management seems utterly oblivious to The Public Interest Disclosure Act 2010

    They are far from alone. Whistleblowing rules are a complete joke most of the time for the rather obvious reason that you need them because organisations will want to punish people for doing it, and a piece of paper saying they won't does not eliminate the desire to punish, so a way will be found.

    It’s really not difficult, but it requires a change of mindset from management.

    Find an industry where it works - aviation, railways, nuclear power stations - and learn from them.

    I’m sure there’s a load of consultants out there like @Cyclefree, who have worked in settings with no-blame culture and can advise how things need to change.
    I agree with you in principle. But it's worth remembering how huge the NHS is, and how many people work for it, compared with the industries you mention. Organisational and cultural change is challenging in a workplace with a thousand staff; the NHS has over a million. With around 40,000 officers, the Met Police is struggling to transform. Changing the culture is a heck of a job on such a scale as the NHS.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087
    edited August 2023

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    NHS management seems utterly oblivious to The Public Interest Disclosure Act 2010

    They are far from alone. Whistleblowing rules are a complete joke most of the time for the rather obvious reason that you need them because organisations will want to punish people for doing it, and a piece of paper saying they won't does not eliminate the desire to punish, so a way will be found.

    It’s really not difficult, but it requires a change of mindset from management.

    Find an industry where it works - aviation, railways, nuclear power stations - and learn from them.

    I’m sure there’s a load of consultants out there like @Cyclefree, who have worked in settings with no-blame culture and can advise how things need to change.
    I agree with you in principle. But it's worth remembering how huge the NHS is, and how many people work for it, compared with the industries you mention. Organisational and cultural change is challenging in a workplace with a thousand staff; the NHS has over a million. With around 40,000 officers, the Met Police is struggling to transform. Changing the culture is a heck of a job.
    Yet as we are frequently reminded it is not a monolithic organisation either, it can be worked on in smaller and more discrete chunks too as regional areas show the way for example.

    And without wishing to suggest it is the entire cause of it being so hard to change, the hero worship of the system set up (rather than simply praising the workforce) really needs to stop.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,473
    My (indirect but from a close relative who is senior there) knowledge of the NHS is that there is a strong 'cya' ethic. People are wary in what they say and do, driven more by derisking themselves in the event of 'turbulence' than in straightforwardly doing the job. This is a bad thing and it happens at mid to upper level in most big organizations.
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    China solves problem of rising youth unemployment: they’re not going to report the figures any more.

    https://www.ft.com/content/a14ef388-5fea-4696-9791-0379b37e68bf

    New Labour solved the problem of youth unemployment by raising the school leaving age to 21 as part of its policy of infantilising da yoof young adults. The preceding Conservative government adjusted the statistical definition of unemployment more than a dozen times, strangely enough all in a downwards direction, and passed thousands onto long-term sickness benefits.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,371
    kle4 said:

    DougSeal said:

    kle4 said:

    NHS management seems utterly oblivious to The Public Interest Disclosure Act 2010

    They are far from alone. Whistleblowing rules are a complete joke most of the time for the rather obvious reason that you need them because organisations will want to punish people for doing it, and a piece of paper saying they won't does not eliminate the desire to punish, so a way will be found.

    Well, given the Public Interest Disclosure Act 2010 is an act of the Queensland Legislature, the NHS can safely ignore it. It's the Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998 they have to worry about.
    Ha!

    I withdraw all my criticisms.
    Sorry! #pendanticbetting applies...
  • Options

    Twitter or X or whatever it is, is soooo shite now.
    I really mourn the loss of little pools of expertise on any given topic. My timeline is just crowded with utter crud.

    Elon Musk is a giant tit.

    I know twitter has always had its problems and weaknesses, but I think it brought some value to the world in being a place where subject matter experts could share their knowledge with the intermediate layer of the media. That value seems to have been completely destroyed now so that Musk could have an echo chamber of sycophants.

    I think it's one of the most public demonstrations of the raw power that great wealth bestows.

    Most of the time rich people try to be more subtle about it.
    I know his entire aim is to make it so there's no "censorship" as he refers to it but I am bemused why actively making your existing users want to leave is a good business strategy.

    I can now no longer work out whether somebody has replied to a Tweet or not. It's either lots of ads or posts that have nothing to do with the original Tweet. I assume this is on purpose.

    I don't know if Threads (Meta's version) is the solution but right now they're being handed the userbase.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,667

    The Letby case is an horrific example of a general tendency in UK business and institutions - managers ignoring inconvenient, difficult issues identified by people doing the actual work. It's short-termism for an easy life and it does immense harm. Far too much of our management class is just not fit for purpose.

    This is true in every sector too. Not just the state, every company I've ever worked for has got plenty of examples of poor management burying their heads in the sand rather than tackling the issue.

    None with anywhere near as bad ab out one as the NHS has had in this and many other scenarios but still, it pretty damaging.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,583

    Twitter or X or whatever it is, is soooo shite now.
    I really mourn the loss of little pools of expertise on any given topic. My timeline is just crowded with utter crud.

    Elon Musk is a giant tit.

    I know twitter has always had its problems and weaknesses, but I think it brought some value to the world in being a place where subject matter experts could share their knowledge with the intermediate layer of the media. That value seems to have been completely destroyed now so that Musk could have an echo chamber of sycophants.

    I think it's one of the most public demonstrations of the raw power that great wealth bestows.

    Most of the time rich people try to be more subtle about it.
    And yet the market will work it out. Sooner or later, a viable, better alternative will be developed - and when it is, Twitter will go the way of MySpace.
    Maybe. I'm not so confident.

    The immediate move seems to be towards less open forums for communication - telegram channels and discord servers. This could see a lot more of this communication trapped in silos, rather than the more anarchic nature of twitter.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,464

    China’s suppression of youth unemployment statistics s is another reason why I’m a “China bear”.

    Crap economy, crap demography, crap politics.
    Their diplomacy is also shit, as they seem to have alienated most of their neighbours in recent years.

    It seems like a long time since Chairman Xi was enjoying a pint in the Cotswolds.

    And yet it still has a population four times that of the US - and that raw fact will offset any number of other structural problems. As long as it remains a cohesive, unified country, it will be a 21st century superpower. It is too big not to be.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,543
    Incidentally - Google throws up three Karen Reeses who work in healthcare. One at Warwick, one in Birmingham and one in Manchester.

    I think we can all feel sympathy for them today as idiots will be sending them nasty messages in confusion with *that* Karen Rees.

    The Daily Mail may have done a rare public service in revealing her change of name and new occupation.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,667

    Wasn’t this supposed to be NHS week for the government?

    Grim irony, if so.

    Tbh, the government needs to use this scandal to clean house at NHS management level. Start sacking every single one who is clearly not up to it. The whole culture of the NHS needs to change. It should be patient centric, not organisation centric.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,812
    Just as a very small example of this: there is a disciplinary "performance improvement" process for underperformers at my place of work. It requires you to write an improvement plan, test its facts, send it over for a fairness review with HR, then discuss the metrics with the individual, then set weekly meetings, where you review progress and evidence, and then discuss the outcome of that with a case manager, and then, finally, hold a formal performance outcome meeting after 4 weeks with an employee/TU representation, set an outcome (pass/fail), and if it's the third one - of course, one isn't enough - you can move to dismissal, on which a grievance or personal claim might be raised against you and the firm.

    You have to do this all on top of the day-job. It's several hours extra work each week - together with all sorts of side conversations as well - and an emotional drain. You get no extra pay, credit, or thanks, although you yourself are sanctioned by HR if you don't follow through or do it all properly. These are often for people you didn't hire yourself, and are baffled who did, who've been foisted on you and you have to deal with.

    Now, I've done this in full, twice, but I got no thanks for it - people just take for granted the individual is gone, eventually, and are relieved - and it wasn't something I'd care to repeat.

    What behaviour does this drive?

    It drives in the annual review cycle a lot of discussion on frustrations people have with certain members of staff, but hardly any formally identified as underperformers - I'd say 1-2% at best - because they'd then have to own this and take it all on. Instead, people just try to avoid working with them again and hope they'll leave of their own volition or someone else will deal with them.

    That's how processes and rewards (or not), baked into the institution, can drive behaviour.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024
    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    NHS management seems utterly oblivious to The Public Interest Disclosure Act 2010

    They are far from alone. Whistleblowing rules are a complete joke most of the time for the rather obvious reason that you need them because organisations will want to punish people for doing it, and a piece of paper saying they won't does not eliminate the desire to punish, so a way will be found.

    It’s really not difficult, but it requires a change of mindset from management.

    Find an industry where it works - aviation, railways, nuclear power stations - and learn from them.

    I’m sure there’s a load of consultants out there like @Cyclefree, who have worked in settings with no-blame culture and can advise how things need to change.
    Most things which are hard are still not as hard as people think, when it comes to changing how people act - a few key people in the right place, commitment and drive to achieve it, and people will go with the flow of a good culture as much as they do with a bad one. I dare say I don't challenge enough of the worse aspects of my own workplace's culture for sake of a quiet life.
    Yes, inertia is always the easiest route to take. A change of culture isn’t difficult, but it takes work, and there will be pushback against it, as there is with any change.

    But if your industry kills people when mistakes are made, then it’s everyone’s job to make sure that slippery slope isn’t started down, and the people who need to change the most are the senior management and the most experienced staff. In a hospital, that’s the consultants and the top administrators.

    As an example, in aviation a young co-pilot is encouraged to call out mistakes made by a senior captain, but most importantly the senior captain is told to listen to such feedback. This is known in the industry as Crew Resource Management, and came about as a result of senior captains screwing up and planes crashing, because other people who could see what was happening were frighted to speak up about it. It’s especially a problem with ex-military pilots, and with some Asian cultures where seniority is seen as important. Most Western airlines still had to work hard to change the culture. (See the KLM Teneriffe accident of 1977 for the case study).
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087
    edited August 2023
    ydoethur said:

    Twitter or X or whatever it is, is soooo shite now.
    I really mourn the loss of little pools of expertise on any given topic. My timeline is just crowded with utter crud.

    Elon Musk is a giant tit.

    You mean, he's being milked for vast amounts?

    Although he seems to be trying to milk Twitter, not very capably.
    Given he didn't really want to buy it trying to milk it for all he can makes a lot of sense for him personally. Whether he can manage it without exhausting the poor cow too quickly we shall see.

    Incidentally he is suing the law firm that the previous bosses hired to force him to buy them out, which is not vindictive at all (apparently it's down to how much they got paid for it, and as its a big law firm they'll probably just settle).
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,976

    Twitter or X or whatever it is, is soooo shite now.
    I really mourn the loss of little pools of expertise on any given topic. My timeline is just crowded with utter crud.

    Elon Musk is a giant tit.

    Indeed. I find that the lists function keeps things readable. I have a list called UKMedicine for example. Much more useful than the "For You" tab which just spams me.

    Musk has decided to end the block function, and I cannot see how that is a benefit. I suppose it is because he is a Troll himself.

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    Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 2,778
    Institutional stupidity describes an organisation, ostensibly full of clever individuals, that behaves like an idiot. The usual response, when discovered, is to round on a particular person and winkle them out while everyone else can get back to the day job. Of course the IS will continue unabated because the structural problem hasn't been identified or addressed.

    It's like the Russian army, which apparently thrives on institutional mendacity, so privates lies to corporals who lie to sergeants all the way up the ranks until generals solemnly inform Putin that Ukraine can easily be subdued in a week. No-one at any level actually knows the truth.

    The point about institutional defects (racism, stupidity, mendacity...) is that they are emergent properties of the organisation itself and not a failing of any particular individual. Finding someone to blame may be cathartic but it doesn't solve the problem.

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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,380
    edited August 2023
    I've not followed the case very closely, but my impression is that the reason the doctors were forced to apologise is that management had the impression that they were bullying a junior member of staff (the apparently patronising "nice Lucy" could be an example). In principle it's of course a good thing that management pays attention to complaints of this kind, but it illustrates the fundamental point that substantive issues can't be ignored because of preoccupation with "correct" behaviour.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,890

    Good morning

    @Cyclefree again demonstrates her importance to this forum and I hope she continues to contribute as her opinions are very useful

    I do not subscribe to the reintroduction of the death penalty nor have I heard it suggested

    Letby will spend the rest of her life behind bars and that is entirely justified

    I wonder if you'd change your tune if it was a way to have SKS lose an election.

    Just like you implied yesterday that I supported Letby, I think you will stop at nothing to see the Tories win.
    Absolutely not and it does you no credit to even suggest it
    You absolutely did:

    Why should anyone have anonymity for life for such heinous crimes

    The parents who must be in utter despair and pain should be the focus of our care, not Letby

    I hope you will apologise.

    I will now go back to ignoring certain people but I just could not let this kind of absurd accusation fly. Apologies to the other members for interrupting their conversation.

    China’s suppression of youth unemployment statistics s is another reason why I’m a “China bear”.

    Crap economy, crap demography, crap politics.
    Their diplomacy is also shit, as they seem to have alienated most of their neighbours in recent years.

    It seems like a long time since Chairman Xi was enjoying a pint in the Cotswolds.

    And yet it still has a population four times that of the US - and that raw fact will offset any number of other structural problems. As long as it remains a cohesive, unified country, it will be a 21st century superpower. It is too big not to be.
    Sure, but I don’t buy the “China is the coming overlord” crap that Leon regularly spouted.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,380
    Cyclefree said:

    viewcode said:

    Actually at 674 words this is one of the shorter entries in the Cyclefree oeuvre, which normally topped out at about 1000-1200 words and gave precedent to the longer articles that followed hers (coughcough). I assume this is a temporary phenomenon caused by the short notice, as a restoration of the previous word limit would be, um, limiting.

    :):):)

    [PS Oh, welcome back @Cyclefree.]

    I wrote this for my work website as doing whistleblowing investigations is my day job and has been for decades. Pretty much all my posts for that website are as short - usually shorter - than this. It did not take long. Only once I'd done it did I share it with OGH.

    Incidentally, since the usual suspects are moaning again: I have written ca 250 headers for this site. OGH decides what gets published. Not once has he asked me to shorten or otherwise edit them - other than on one occasion to remove something potentially libellous.

    What I say in there is not the obvious - bleedin' or otherwise. If it were we would not have endless scandals with the same depressing features. Speaking up is hard and the natural - and common - reaction is to ignore. Not look and find out and act.

    I know about this stuff. I have lived it for decades. I try and share some of this knowledge because I hope it illuminates some of the issues we see in public life today, because I believe that we have an obligation to pass on our knowledge in whatever way we can. We are always learning and, in some small way, always teaching. Boorish, innumerate and bitchy reactions (not yours) are tiresome and detract from this site, however.

    Have a good day all.
    Welcomr back, Cyclefree, and ignore the moaners, where they've not already been banned!
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087

    China’s suppression of youth unemployment statistics s is another reason why I’m a “China bear”.

    Crap economy, crap demography, crap politics.
    Their diplomacy is also shit, as they seem to have alienated most of their neighbours in recent years.

    It seems like a long time since Chairman Xi was enjoying a pint in the Cotswolds.

    And yet it still has a population four times that of the US - and that raw fact will offset any number of other structural problems. As long as it remains a cohesive, unified country, it will be a 21st century superpower. It is too big not to be.
    China if unified and relatively stable will always be a major player. But do its problems mean it will not be the dominant player is the question.
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    boulayboulay Posts: 4,066
    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally - Google throws up three Karen Reeses who work in healthcare. One at Warwick, one in Birmingham and one in Manchester.

    I think we can all feel sympathy for them today as idiots will be sending them nasty messages in confusion with *that* Karen Rees.

    The Daily Mail may have done a rare public service in revealing her change of name and new occupation.

    The recreated face of Bonnie Prince Charlie is also worried he might be mistaken for Lucy Letby.


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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    NHS management seems utterly oblivious to The Public Interest Disclosure Act 2010

    They are far from alone. Whistleblowing rules are a complete joke most of the time for the rather obvious reason that you need them because organisations will want to punish people for doing it, and a piece of paper saying they won't does not eliminate the desire to punish, so a way will be found.

    It’s really not difficult, but it requires a change of mindset from management.

    Find an industry where it works - aviation, railways, nuclear power stations - and learn from them.

    I’m sure there’s a load of consultants out there like @Cyclefree, who have worked in settings with no-blame culture and can advise how things need to change.
    I agree with you in principle. But it's worth remembering how huge the NHS is, and how many people work for it, compared with the industries you mention. Organisational and cultural change is challenging in a workplace with a thousand staff; the NHS has over a million. With around 40,000 officers, the Met Police is struggling to transform. Changing the culture is a heck of a job on such a scale as the NHS.
    Oh indeed. I’ve said before that the Met Police needs the RUC treatment, of being totally disbanded and reformed with new management, and probably split into two or three forces. Sometimes that’s the only way to get rid of an endemic and toxic culture.

    The NHS is an order of magnitude more difficult as an organisation, but I would think that the existing culture is a lot better to start with. I know it’s heretic to say it, but this case is a good starting point for wholesale reform. As our resident doctor @Foxy has pointed out, there are parts of the NHS where things already work well in terms of investigation and identifying potential problems, so use those places as case studies to roll out changes elsewhere.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,081
    Sandpit said:

    It’s especially a problem with ex-military pilots

    The typical British response to a military aviation mishap is "How we can stop anybody else finding out about it?" There isn't really a great deal of energy expended trying to find out who was responsible. If it can't be covered up then the search for extenuating circumstances starts and the responsibility is generally laid at broader systemic issues than any individual. The F-35 to the bottom of the Med is a classic example of this. The gingers didn't do a proper handover of the a/c at shift change and the pilot didn't do a walkaround (he must have thought he was a Blue Angel) but apparently the root cause was crewing issues caused by Covid.

    The US, in my experience, operate a ruthless blame culture. Though it's often the CO of the unit that hangs, not the mishap pilot.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,976
    MaxPB said:

    Wasn’t this supposed to be NHS week for the government?

    Grim irony, if so.

    Tbh, the government needs to use this scandal to clean house at NHS management level. Start sacking every single one who is clearly not up to it. The whole culture of the NHS needs to change. It should be patient centric, not organisation centric.
    See my post at 0941 citing the 2016 CQC report on Countess of Chester.

    The current system clearly cannot identify those who "are clearly not up to it" and a more random and punitive approach is likely to drive out the competent managers that we do have.

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    Have just completed 12 days continuously working (kerching) so was too tired to read or post last night or wake up this morning.

    On topic - this is a great example why HR needs to have policies and processes. In any organisation you will get individuals who are jealous of others and make spurious complaints. You will get people who are horrified by what they see but don't feel empowered to act. You will get managers who just want the problem to go away. And occasionally you get a monster.

    Its easy for people to dismiss HR teams and policies, but they are there for the protection of all. I've used HR policy to manage a problematic team member. To defend myself and my team against a mendacious and incompetent boss. And to ensure that I took the business to the cleaners when new boss decided to bring his own people in and we needed to go.

    I once worked for a monster. Not a baby-killer, but someone whose business and interpersonal practices were increasingly horrendous. The initial reaction is denial, then horror, then fear. Even when other colleagues with the same boss come to the same conclusion there is no sanctuary, if anything it was worse. What do we do about this person? About their allies? And who can we trust to raise our concerns? We did have one very senior manager utterly dismissive of any complaints - the business would look Bad (to say nothing of the people who hired the monster) if the complaints were true.

    In the end, a robust HR policy did the job. A trip wire was tripped, the monster was suspended, a formal investigation launched. And that was the end of them. The HR policies and processes did their job. For the protection of the organisation and its people.
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    jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 659
    Cyclefree said:

    viewcode said:

    Actually at 674 words this is one of the shorter entries in the Cyclefree oeuvre, which normally topped out at about 1000-1200 words and gave precedent to the longer articles that followed hers (coughcough). I assume this is a temporary phenomenon caused by the short notice, as a restoration of the previous word limit would be, um, limiting.

    :):):)

    [PS Oh, welcome back @Cyclefree.]

    I wrote this for my work website as doing whistleblowing investigations is my day job and has been for decades. Pretty much all my posts for that website are as short - usually shorter - than this. It did not take long. Only once I'd done it did I share it with OGH.

    Incidentally, since the usual suspects are moaning again: I have written ca 250 headers for this site. OGH decides what gets published. Not once has he asked me to shorten or otherwise edit them - other than on one occasion to remove something potentially libellous.

    What I say in there is not the obvious - bleedin' or otherwise. If it were we would not have endless scandals with the same depressing features. Speaking up is hard and the natural - and common - reaction is to ignore. Not look and find out and act.

    I know about this stuff. I have lived it for decades. I try and share some of this knowledge because I hope it illuminates some of the issues we see in public life today, because I believe that we have an obligation to pass on our knowledge in whatever way we can. We are always learning and, in some small way, always teaching. Boorish, innumerate and bitchy reactions (not yours) are tiresome and detract from this site, however.

    Have a good day all.
    I find that @Cyclefree's headers are short when they can be, and long when they need to be. And even at 1000 words, that's only four pages in a book, hardly a strain. Another good one today, and welcome back.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,986
    edited August 2023
    China’s long-term innovation conundrum in a paragraph …

    “Achieving the innovation necessary to fulfil the ambition of self-reliance in science and technology will demand not just the infrastructure afforded by financial resources and a policy tool box, but also the space that comes from allowing critical thinking, reducing political interference and generally accepting challenges to the status quo. What is lacking now is the political will to nurture creative endeavour and to allow a younger generation of researchers to challenge conventional wisdom.”

    https://www.ft.com/content/db006725-421a-464d-870e-3e8e48b8814f

    Can any country that restricts the rights of its citizens to access information and to express their thoughts ever hope to maximise its innovation potential across all areas of technology? If a state insists you need to behave in a certain way to advance your career, can it ever tap into the creativity of everyone who lives there? I have my doubts. In certain areas, though not all (life sciences, perhaps), China’s political structure probably dooms it to be a follower not a leader. That is a major opportunity for those who operate differently. If only they could see it.

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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,787
    Heads up: GBNews talking about businesses that don't take cash.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,667
    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Wasn’t this supposed to be NHS week for the government?

    Grim irony, if so.

    Tbh, the government needs to use this scandal to clean house at NHS management level. Start sacking every single one who is clearly not up to it. The whole culture of the NHS needs to change. It should be patient centric, not organisation centric.
    See my post at 0941 citing the 2016 CQC report on Countess of Chester.

    The current system clearly cannot identify those who "are clearly not up to it" and a more random and punitive approach is likely to drive out the competent managers that we do have.

    You speak to the actual workers on who's shit and who isn't. Or, you use my method and sack all of them and recruit a whole new team externally and don't accept applications from anyone who was sacked.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,473
    Cyclefree said:

    I would also like to say that I am very grateful for the opportunity OGH has given me over the years to write and for all the constructive comments I receive and generally for the debate, which often stimulate other headers, rather than BTL posts.

    So you only have yourselves to blame! 😀

    And now I really must be off. There is post Storm Betty gardening to be done.

    And this latest header is very good imo. Just one minor quibble. Bit on the short side. :smile:
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    OT Sweden leads Australia 2-0 in the third place playoff on ITV.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,812

    I've not followed the case very closely, but my impression is that the reason the doctors were forced to apologise is that management had the impression that they were bullying a junior member of staff (the apparently patronising "nice Lucy" could be an example). In principle it's of course a good thing that management pays attention to complaints of this kind, but it illustrates the fundamental point that substantive issues can't be ignored because of preoccupation with "correct" behaviour.

    Yes, that's very possible.
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    Heads up: GBNews talking about businesses that don't take cash.

    And calling for the death penalty if they do not. It's the common sense approach.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,976
    edited August 2023
    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Wasn’t this supposed to be NHS week for the government?

    Grim irony, if so.

    Tbh, the government needs to use this scandal to clean house at NHS management level. Start sacking every single one who is clearly not up to it. The whole culture of the NHS needs to change. It should be patient centric, not organisation centric.
    See my post at 0941 citing the 2016 CQC report on Countess of Chester.

    The current system clearly cannot identify those who "are clearly not up to it" and a more random and punitive approach is likely to drive out the competent managers that we do have.

    You speak to the actual workers on who's shit and who isn't. Or, you use my method and sack all of them and recruit a whole new team externally and don't accept applications from anyone who was sacked.
    Supposedly that is what the CQC does. Clearly it failed to identify in 2016 how dysfunctional clinical governance structures were in Chester.

    So either start by sacking the CQC, or consider that we need a different approach to the problem other than machismo BSD.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,812
    boulay said:

    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally - Google throws up three Karen Reeses who work in healthcare. One at Warwick, one in Birmingham and one in Manchester.

    I think we can all feel sympathy for them today as idiots will be sending them nasty messages in confusion with *that* Karen Rees.

    The Daily Mail may have done a rare public service in revealing her change of name and new occupation.

    The recreated face of Bonnie Prince Charlie is also worried he might be mistaken for Lucy Letby.


    Didn't he have a part in the Vicar of Dibley?
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,470

    DougSeal said:

    "Probable"? I know you push this line a lot but you have to admit it is deeply against the grain of betting markets' estimations of probability, not to mention the commentary of those on both sides of the divide, opinion polling and recent elections - even the Uxbridge swing replicated across the country would not win the election for the Tories.

    I think Pete provides another interesting, if very "out there" perspective. And this site would be worse without him, he has supported me through many a hard time.

    I absolutely think if it was offered the public would vote for the death penalty. But that's why we elect politicians to stop us from being able to vote for stupid ideas.

    It's not out of the question the Tories could win again, I still think a Hung Parliament is a very likely outcome and so a small swing back might yet happen and keep Rishi in Downing Street.

    Anyway glad to have you back posting Doug.
    Are you trying to get me 🚫?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    It’s especially a problem with ex-military pilots

    The typical British response to a military aviation mishap is "How we can stop anybody else finding out about it?" There isn't really a great deal of energy expended trying to find out who was responsible. If it can't be covered up then the search for extenuating circumstances starts and the responsibility is generally laid at broader systemic issues than any individual. The F-35 to the bottom of the Med is a classic example of this. The gingers didn't do a proper handover of the a/c at shift change and the pilot didn't do a walkaround (he must have thought he was a Blue Angel) but apparently the root cause was crewing issues caused by Covid.

    The US, in my experience, operate a ruthless blame culture. Though it's often the CO of the unit that hangs, not the mishap pilot.
    Ddin’t that F-35 take a bath because of an engine cover left in place, that any one of a dozen or more people should have noticed between the start of the shift and the plane heading down the runway?

    If you ignore the attempted coverup bit at the start, an accident is almost always a series of broad systemic issues, the day when the holes in the cheese all line up, which is why it’s important to both investigate accidents, and investigate near misses.

    I bet those engine covers now have extra-long and extra-wide red streamers on them, and a requirement for someone on the desk to physically hold them up so the pilot can see they’ve been removed!
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,212
    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    DougSeal said:

    Sean_F said:

    Karen Rees will probably say she's the real victim, here.

    LOL

    or Brexit made her do it.
    Well done. Among a huge amount of competition (largely from yourself) you have made the most pointlessly, facile, inappropriate, unbecoming and mendacious shoehorning of a sectarian issue into a deeply human tragedy in the history of this site. You need to take a long hard look at yourself away from a keyboard and in a mirror.
    Talking of inappropriate a tweet from someone called Janey Godley, a Scottish comic, takes some beating.
    Taz calling her a comic is really really stretching reality. Her claim to fame is doing Imelda in a jimmy Krankie voice. Surprise surprise she is a friend of Imelda
    Morning Malc, hope you are well.

    I don’t really know a great deal about her aside from a HIGNFY appearance, as resident comic. I guess having the right friends helps people ascend the greasy pole.
    Hi Taz, all well , hpoe you and family are same.
    Yes she did ok till her racist etc tendencies came to the fore.
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    DougSeal said:

    "Probable"? I know you push this line a lot but you have to admit it is deeply against the grain of betting markets' estimations of probability, not to mention the commentary of those on both sides of the divide, opinion polling and recent elections - even the Uxbridge swing replicated across the country would not win the election for the Tories.

    I think Pete provides another interesting, if very "out there" perspective. And this site would be worse without him, he has supported me through many a hard time.

    I absolutely think if it was offered the public would vote for the death penalty. But that's why we elect politicians to stop us from being able to vote for stupid ideas.

    It's not out of the question the Tories could win again, I still think a Hung Parliament is a very likely outcome and so a small swing back might yet happen and keep Rishi in Downing Street.

    Anyway glad to have you back posting Doug.
    Are you trying to get me 🚫?
    Absolutely. I just want a void I can shout my woke left wing opinions into without argument!
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,212

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Yah. Cyclefree is back.

    Thanks.

    Seconded, welcome back @Cyclefree !
    Really? It takes a 5000 word header to understand what can be said in 50, with room over for a really good recipe for ceviche?

    Less is more.
    Bravo! Ishmael is back.
    You’ve only just realised? His tell of going on about Bayes and statistics manifested early…
    I've not been following PB too much lately. Political argument has been replaced by an unseemly dash for 'likes'. Like this thread it makes for very ugly reading.
    The problem is that any dissenting opinions are now quickly hidden as you say by people chasing likes. I think @MrEd, @StuartDickson had some interesting stuff to say and yet we have to go through Leon's latest rant about aliens day after day. I know he's "left" but we all know he will be back.

    I thought we were having an interesting discussion last night on Ukraine and I valued some of the more "dissenting" contributions but as usual they were accused of being stooges.
    Over the years Leon has contributed more than most to the site.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,212
    Taz said:

    I am furious about some of the nasty and sexist comments on Cyclefree's post. Quite a few of the culprits will be banned

    Why bother Mike if they just reappear a day or so later with a different name ?

    I get your fury and it makes you wonder why anyone would write a thread in the first place !
    Few losers who could not write 10 words, best ignored.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,976
    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    It’s especially a problem with ex-military pilots

    The typical British response to a military aviation mishap is "How we can stop anybody else finding out about it?" There isn't really a great deal of energy expended trying to find out who was responsible. If it can't be covered up then the search for extenuating circumstances starts and the responsibility is generally laid at broader systemic issues than any individual. The F-35 to the bottom of the Med is a classic example of this. The gingers didn't do a proper handover of the a/c at shift change and the pilot didn't do a walkaround (he must have thought he was a Blue Angel) but apparently the root cause was crewing issues caused by Covid.

    The US, in my experience, operate a ruthless blame culture. Though it's often the CO of the unit that hangs, not the mishap pilot.
    Ddin’t that F-35 take a bath because of an engine cover left in place, that any one of a dozen or more people should have noticed between the start of the shift and the plane heading down the runway?

    If you ignore the attempted coverup bit at the start, an accident is almost always a series of broad systemic issues, the day when the holes in the cheese all line up, which is why it’s important to both investigate accidents, and investigate near misses.

    I bet those engine covers now have extra-long and extra-wide red streamers on them, and a requirement for someone on the desk to physically hold them up so the pilot can see they’ve been removed!
    The equivalent in a service industry such as healthcare is a proliferation of red tape.

    There needs to be a balance between safety and efficiency, and a recognition that safety carries an opportunity cost.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,212

    DougSeal said:

    "Probable"? I know you push this line a lot but you have to admit it is deeply against the grain of betting markets' estimations of probability, not to mention the commentary of those on both sides of the divide, opinion polling and recent elections - even the Uxbridge swing replicated across the country would not win the election for the Tories.

    I think Pete provides another interesting, if very "out there" perspective. And this site would be worse without him, he has supported me through many a hard time.

    I absolutely think if it was offered the public would vote for the death penalty. But that's why we elect politicians to stop us from being able to vote for stupid ideas.

    It's not out of the question the Tories could win again, I still think a Hung Parliament is a very likely outcome and so a small swing back might yet happen and keep Rishi in Downing Street.

    Anyway glad to have you back posting Doug.
    He has never gone away you dunderheid.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,976
    malcolmg said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Yah. Cyclefree is back.

    Thanks.

    Seconded, welcome back @Cyclefree !
    Really? It takes a 5000 word header to understand what can be said in 50, with room over for a really good recipe for ceviche?

    Less is more.
    Bravo! Ishmael is back.
    You’ve only just realised? His tell of going on about Bayes and statistics manifested early…
    I've not been following PB too much lately. Political argument has been replaced by an unseemly dash for 'likes'. Like this thread it makes for very ugly reading.
    The problem is that any dissenting opinions are now quickly hidden as you say by people chasing likes. I think @MrEd, @StuartDickson had some interesting stuff to say and yet we have to go through Leon's latest rant about aliens day after day. I know he's "left" but we all know he will be back.

    I thought we were having an interesting discussion last night on Ukraine and I valued some of the more "dissenting" contributions but as usual they were accused of being stooges.
    Over the years Leon has contributed more than most to the site.
    Certainly in volume!

    An occasional good post, but an awful lot of Instagram dinners, holiday snaps and whacko stuff from the rabbit hole.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,128
    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    NHS management seems utterly oblivious to The Public Interest Disclosure Act 2010

    They are far from alone. Whistleblowing rules are a complete joke most of the time for the rather obvious reason that you need them because organisations will want to punish people for doing it, and a piece of paper saying they won't does not eliminate the desire to punish, so a way will be found.

    It’s really not difficult, but it requires a change of mindset from management.

    Find an industry where it works - aviation, railways, nuclear power stations - and learn from them.

    I’m sure there’s a load of consultants out there like @Cyclefree, who have worked in settings with no-blame culture and can advise how things need to change.
    Most things which are hard are still not as hard as people think, when it comes to changing how people act - a few key people in the right place, commitment and drive to achieve it, and people will go with the flow of a good culture as much as they do with a bad one. I dare say I don't challenge enough of the worse aspects of my own workplace's culture for sake of a quiet life.
    Yes, inertia is always the easiest route to take. A change of culture isn’t difficult, but it takes work, and there will be pushback against it, as there is with any change.

    But if your industry kills people when mistakes are made, then it’s everyone’s job to make sure that slippery slope isn’t started down, and the people who need to change the most are the senior management and the most experienced staff. In a hospital, that’s the consultants and the top administrators.

    As an example, in aviation a young co-pilot is encouraged to call out mistakes made by a senior captain, but most importantly the senior captain is told to listen to such feedback. This is known in the industry as Crew Resource Management, and came about as a result of senior captains screwing up and planes crashing, because other people who could see what was happening were frighted to speak up about it. It’s especially a problem with ex-military pilots, and with some Asian cultures where seniority is seen as important. Most Western airlines still had to work hard to change the culture. (See the KLM Teneriffe accident of 1977 for the case study).
    There was also the Korea Airline crash in (I think) Guam where this was identified.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,212

    boulay said:

    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally - Google throws up three Karen Reeses who work in healthcare. One at Warwick, one in Birmingham and one in Manchester.

    I think we can all feel sympathy for them today as idiots will be sending them nasty messages in confusion with *that* Karen Rees.

    The Daily Mail may have done a rare public service in revealing her change of name and new occupation.

    The recreated face of Bonnie Prince Charlie is also worried he might be mistaken for Lucy Letby.


    Didn't he have a part in the Vicar of Dibley?
    Unionist plot to make him look pot ugly, looks nothing like the pictures of him.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,667
    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Wasn’t this supposed to be NHS week for the government?

    Grim irony, if so.

    Tbh, the government needs to use this scandal to clean house at NHS management level. Start sacking every single one who is clearly not up to it. The whole culture of the NHS needs to change. It should be patient centric, not organisation centric.
    See my post at 0941 citing the 2016 CQC report on Countess of Chester.

    The current system clearly cannot identify those who "are clearly not up to it" and a more random and punitive approach is likely to drive out the competent managers that we do have.

    You speak to the actual workers on who's shit and who isn't. Or, you use my method and sack all of them and recruit a whole new team externally and don't accept applications from anyone who was sacked.
    Supposedly that is what the CQC does. Clearly it failed to identify in 2016 how dysfunctional clinical governance structures were in Chester.

    So either start by sacking the CQC, or consider that we need a different approach to the problem other than machismo BSD.
    Tbh, I think very little of the public sector is fit for purpose above a certain level so yes, let's also sack the CQC and start again there too
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,283

    China’s suppression of youth unemployment statistics s is another reason why I’m a “China bear”.

    Crap economy, crap demography, crap politics.
    Their diplomacy is also shit, as they seem to have alienated most of their neighbours in recent years.

    It seems like a long time since Chairman Xi was enjoying a pint in the Cotswolds.

    The demographic divergence between China and India is quite startling.

    https://www.wsj.com/world/china/chinas-fertility-rate-dropped-sharply-study-shows-e97e647f
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,473
    boulay said:

    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally - Google throws up three Karen Reeses who work in healthcare. One at Warwick, one in Birmingham and one in Manchester.

    I think we can all feel sympathy for them today as idiots will be sending them nasty messages in confusion with *that* Karen Rees.

    The Daily Mail may have done a rare public service in revealing her change of name and new occupation.

    The recreated face of Bonnie Prince Charlie is also worried he might be mistaken for Lucy Letby.


    Makes me wonder what a 'Not Particularly Bonnie Prince Charlie' would have looked like.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    NHS management seems utterly oblivious to The Public Interest Disclosure Act 2010

    They are far from alone. Whistleblowing rules are a complete joke most of the time for the rather obvious reason that you need them because organisations will want to punish people for doing it, and a piece of paper saying they won't does not eliminate the desire to punish, so a way will be found.

    It’s really not difficult, but it requires a change of mindset from management.

    Find an industry where it works - aviation, railways, nuclear power stations - and learn from them.

    I’m sure there’s a load of consultants out there like @Cyclefree, who have worked in settings with no-blame culture and can advise how things need to change.
    Most things which are hard are still not as hard as people think, when it comes to changing how people act - a few key people in the right place, commitment and drive to achieve it, and people will go with the flow of a good culture as much as they do with a bad one. I dare say I don't challenge enough of the worse aspects of my own workplace's culture for sake of a quiet life.
    Yes, inertia is always the easiest route to take. A change of culture isn’t difficult, but it takes work, and there will be pushback against it, as there is with any change.

    But if your industry kills people when mistakes are made, then it’s everyone’s job to make sure that slippery slope isn’t started down, and the people who need to change the most are the senior management and the most experienced staff. In a hospital, that’s the consultants and the top administrators.

    As an example, in aviation a young co-pilot is encouraged to call out mistakes made by a senior captain, but most importantly the senior captain is told to listen to such feedback. This is known in the industry as Crew Resource Management, and came about as a result of senior captains screwing up and planes crashing, because other people who could see what was happening were frighted to speak up about it. It’s especially a problem with ex-military pilots, and with some Asian cultures where seniority is seen as important. Most Western airlines still had to work hard to change the culture. (See the KLM Teneriffe accident of 1977 for the case study).
    There was also the Korea Airline crash in (I think) Guam where this was identified.
    Well remembered! Yes, Korean Air flight 801.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1998/03/18/is-culture-a-factor-in-air-crashes-guam-probe-may-raise-touchy-issue/7aca0396-a176-42ca-a4b0-4f6d8568115f/
  • Options
    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Wasn’t this supposed to be NHS week for the government?

    Grim irony, if so.

    Tbh, the government needs to use this scandal to clean house at NHS management level. Start sacking every single one who is clearly not up to it. The whole culture of the NHS needs to change. It should be patient centric, not organisation centric.
    See my post at 0941 citing the 2016 CQC report on Countess of Chester.

    The current system clearly cannot identify those who "are clearly not up to it" and a more random and punitive approach is likely to drive out the competent managers that we do have.

    You speak to the actual workers on who's shit and who isn't. Or, you use my method and sack all of them and recruit a whole new team externally and don't accept applications from anyone who was sacked.
    Supposedly that is what the CQC does. Clearly it failed to identify in 2016 how dysfunctional clinical governance structures were in Chester.

    So either start by sacking the CQC, or consider that we need a different approach to the problem other than machismo BSD.
    Tbh, I think very little of the public sector is fit for purpose above a certain level so yes, let's also sack the CQC and start again there too
    And let the public sector get on with its job of bailing out the banks whenever they cause a financial crisis.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,212

    Good morning

    @Cyclefree again demonstrates her importance to this forum and I hope she continues to contribute as her opinions are very useful

    I do not subscribe to the reintroduction of the death penalty nor have I heard it suggested

    Letby will spend the rest of her life behind bars and that is entirely justified

    I wonder if you'd change your tune if it was a way to have SKS lose an election.

    Just like you implied yesterday that I supported Letby, I think you will stop at nothing to see the Tories win.
    Absolutely not and it does you no credit to even suggest it
    You absolutely did:

    Why should anyone have anonymity for life for such heinous crimes

    The parents who must be in utter despair and pain should be the focus of our care, not Letby

    I hope you will apologise.

    I will now go back to ignoring certain people but I just could not let this kind of absurd accusation fly. Apologies to the other members for interrupting their conversation.
    I have nothing to apologise for

    Morning G, ignore the idiot.
  • Options
    malcolmg said:

    He has never gone away you dunderheid.

    Glad to have you back posting honey
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,160
    edited August 2023
    As people commenting BTL are squeezing in their usual hobbyhorses (@Alanbrooke's linkage to Brexit was particularly epic, I thought :) ) may I take this opportunity to introduce you to the National Perinatal Epidemiology Unit (NPEU) at Oxford. Its UK Perinatal Mortality Surveillance detected the increased mortality rate caused by Lucy Letby and gave an objective foundation on which subjective suspicions could be developed.

    Harold Macmillan was a fan of the Gilbert and Sullivan lyric "Quiet calm consideration will untangle every knot". I submit that it is structures like this that may provide the way forward. Management involves people and people are flawed. Graphs are much simpler.

    See also: https://www.npeu.ox.ac.uk/mbrrace-uk
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,081
    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    It’s especially a problem with ex-military pilots

    The typical British response to a military aviation mishap is "How we can stop anybody else finding out about it?" There isn't really a great deal of energy expended trying to find out who was responsible. If it can't be covered up then the search for extenuating circumstances starts and the responsibility is generally laid at broader systemic issues than any individual. The F-35 to the bottom of the Med is a classic example of this. The gingers didn't do a proper handover of the a/c at shift change and the pilot didn't do a walkaround (he must have thought he was a Blue Angel) but apparently the root cause was crewing issues caused by Covid.

    The US, in my experience, operate a ruthless blame culture. Though it's often the CO of the unit that hangs, not the mishap pilot.
    Ddin’t that F-35 take a bath because of an engine cover left in place, that any one of a dozen or more people should have noticed between the start of the shift and the plane heading down the runway?

    If you ignore the attempted coverup bit at the start, an accident is almost always a series of broad systemic issues, the day when the holes in the cheese all line up, which is why it’s important to both investigate accidents, and investigate near misses.

    I bet those engine covers now have extra-long and extra-wide red streamers on them, and a requirement for someone on the desk to physically hold them up so the pilot can see they’ve been removed!
    It started because the government wanted the photo op of QE transiting the Suez with a full complement of aircraft on deck. #globalbritain So they asked the US (the security protocol we signed up to with F-35 demands this) who were not stoked but said, yes, if the red gear is in so Russians/Chinese/SNP can't long lens the intake design from the shore.

    The CSG were not remotely ready, from a human or technical perspective, for this cruise but it had to go ahead, no matter what, for political reasons. A shortage of ground crew meant they had to be supplemented on the cruise by civvie contractors who worked different shift patterns.

    "Somebody" broke the golden rule of "All In or All Out" on the red gear and left one in the intake at the end of the shift. A second shift took over some time later and ignored all of the procedures about inventory and storage of the red gear, presumably because they couldn't be arsed. Enter Crab Air stage left. Our hero struts on to the deck, doesn't check the intakes and drives the jet off the end of the ship.

    Ironically, the report has super detailed photos of the intakes for the Russians/Chinese/SNP to save on Pinterest.

  • Options
    malcolmg said:

    Morning G, ignore the idiot.

    Morning to you too Malc!
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,157

    Twitter or X or whatever it is, is soooo shite now.
    I really mourn the loss of little pools of expertise on any given topic. My timeline is just crowded with utter crud.

    Elon Musk is a giant tit.

    I know twitter has always had its problems and weaknesses, but I think it brought some value to the world in being a place where subject matter experts could share their knowledge with the intermediate layer of the media. That value seems to have been completely destroyed now so that Musk could have an echo chamber of sycophants.

    I think it's one of the most public demonstrations of the raw power that great wealth bestows.

    Most of the time rich people try to be more subtle about it.
    And yet the market will work it out. Sooner or later, a viable, better alternative will be developed - and when it is, Twitter will go the way of MySpace.
    Maybe. I'm not so confident.

    The immediate move seems to be towards less open forums for communication - telegram channels and discord servers. This could see a lot more of this communication trapped in silos, rather than the more anarchic nature of twitter.
    Yeah, it's the nature of community spaces (including RL ones) that when one goes away, it's not necessarily replaced by something similar. The people will go somewhere, but often the space could only be created in a particular place and time, and once it's gone it's gone.

    PS I've got a few bluesky invites piled up if anyone here who doesn't have a history of racism or being mean to trans people or whatever wants one.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,083

    I am furious about some of the nasty and sexist comments on Cyclefree's post. Quite a few of the culprits will be banned

    Eh? A quick scan of the thread finds only one critic and that was a hackneyed and inaccurate rant about length. The rest have been grateful and/or supportive of Cyclefree.
    Perhaps OGH sensibly doesn’t much bother reading below the line.
    Or already deleted?
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    Certainly in volume!

    An occasional good post, but an awful lot of Instagram dinners, holiday snaps and whacko stuff from the rabbit hole.

    Well said, I am sure it has nothing to do with Malcom agreeing with some of Leon's more nonsensical posts.

    If we could have Stuart, MrEd back I'd happily have Leon back.
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Wasn’t this supposed to be NHS week for the government?

    Grim irony, if so.

    Tbh, the government needs to use this scandal to clean house at NHS management level. Start sacking every single one who is clearly not up to it. The whole culture of the NHS needs to change. It should be patient centric, not organisation centric.
    See my post at 0941 citing the 2016 CQC report on Countess of Chester.

    The current system clearly cannot identify those who "are clearly not up to it" and a more random and punitive approach is likely to drive out the competent managers that we do have.

    You speak to the actual workers on who's shit and who isn't. Or, you use my method and sack all of them and recruit a whole new team externally and don't accept applications from anyone who was sacked.
    Supposedly that is what the CQC does. Clearly it failed to identify in 2016 how dysfunctional clinical governance structures were in Chester.

    So either start by sacking the CQC, or consider that we need a different approach to the problem other than machismo BSD.
    Two problems with the "sack them all" approach.

    For a start, it rewards coverup culture, which is exactly what we don't want to do.

    Second, there's no certainty that there's a cadre of brilliant managers out there who can make rotten systems work. Rewiring the systems, so they don't require brilliance and courage to work, has a much better chance of suceeding.

    Final thought. The bits of the 20th century that humanity can be proud of, West Germany after Hitler, South Africa after apartheid, Spain after Franco, depended on victims not claiming the eyes for eyes they were entitled to. Trouble is that requires brilliance and courage, which as I noted, is in short supply.
  • Options

    Good morning everyone.

    Interesting interview with the BBC reporter who sat in the courtroom right through. There’s something from her going on the web, if it hasn’t already appeared.

    Link?
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,083
    edited August 2023
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    NHS management seems utterly oblivious to The Public Interest Disclosure Act 2010

    They are far from alone. Whistleblowing rules are a complete joke most of the time for the rather obvious reason that you need them because organisations will want to punish people for doing it, and a piece of paper saying they won't does not eliminate the desire to punish, so a way will be found.

    It’s really not difficult, but it requires a change of mindset from management.

    Find an industry where it works - aviation, railways, nuclear power stations - and learn from them.

    I’m sure there’s a load of consultants out there like @Cyclefree, who have worked in settings with no-blame culture and can advise how things need to change.
    Most things which are hard are still not as hard as people think, when it comes to changing how people act - a few key people in the right place, commitment and drive to achieve it, and people will go with the flow of a good culture as much as they do with a bad one. I dare say I don't challenge enough of the worse aspects of my own workplace's culture for sake of a quiet life.
    Yes, inertia is always the easiest route to take. A change of culture isn’t difficult, but it takes work, and there will be pushback against it, as there is with any change.

    But if your industry kills people when mistakes are made, then it’s everyone’s job to make sure that slippery slope isn’t started down, and the people who need to change the most are the senior management and the most experienced staff. In a hospital, that’s the consultants and the top administrators.

    As an example, in aviation a young co-pilot is encouraged to call out mistakes made by a senior captain, but most importantly the senior captain is told to listen to such feedback. This is known in the industry as Crew Resource Management, and came about as a result of senior captains screwing up and planes crashing, because other people who could see what was happening were frighted to speak up about it. It’s especially a problem with ex-military pilots, and with some Asian cultures where seniority is seen as important. Most Western airlines still had to work hard to change the culture. (See the KLM Teneriffe accident of 1977 for the case study).
    There was also the Korea Airline crash in (I think) Guam where this was identified.
    Well remembered! Yes, Korean Air flight 801.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1998/03/18/is-culture-a-factor-in-air-crashes-guam-probe-may-raise-touchy-issue/7aca0396-a176-42ca-a4b0-4f6d8568115f/
    I was thinking the Staines crash of the BEA Trident, too. Edit: wasn't that bound up with internal politics both in the crash and after?
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024
    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Yah. Cyclefree is back.

    Thanks.

    Seconded, welcome back @Cyclefree !
    Really? It takes a 5000 word header to understand what can be said in 50, with room over for a really good recipe for ceviche?

    Less is more.
    Bravo! Ishmael is back.
    You’ve only just realised? His tell of going on about Bayes and statistics manifested early…
    I've not been following PB too much lately. Political argument has been replaced by an unseemly dash for 'likes'. Like this thread it makes for very ugly reading.
    The problem is that any dissenting opinions are now quickly hidden as you say by people chasing likes. I think @MrEd, @StuartDickson had some interesting stuff to say and yet we have to go through Leon's latest rant about aliens day after day. I know he's "left" but we all know he will be back.

    I thought we were having an interesting discussion last night on Ukraine and I valued some of the more "dissenting" contributions but as usual they were accused of being stooges.
    Over the years Leon has contributed more than most to the site.
    Certainly in volume!

    An occasional good post, but an awful lot of Instagram dinners, holiday snaps and whacko stuff from the rabbit hole.
    Well in Leon’s absence, I think I’ve managed to find the most expensive beer in Ukraine. Sitting in the fine surroundings of the bar of the Intercontinental in Kiev, listening to the live pianist, 240 grivnas, that’s damn nearly a fiver a pint!
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,212

    Foxy said:

    Certainly in volume!

    An occasional good post, but an awful lot of Instagram dinners, holiday snaps and whacko stuff from the rabbit hole.

    Well said, I am sure it has nothing to do with Malcom agreeing with some of Leon's more nonsensical posts.

    If we could have Stuart, MrEd back I'd happily have Leon back.
    You in charge of deciding who is here now, back to your tiddlywinks.
This discussion has been closed.