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How long before re-join the EU becomes a serious movement? – politicalbetting.com

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  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,473
    edited August 2023

    No, he should be out in that situation: he tried to play a massive, heaving shot (and get all the advantages that would have brought if he'd connected) but lost his balance. If you're going to attempt something adventurous, then there are pitfalls if you don't execute with complete perfection. None of that is ethically similar to wandering up to have a chat with your mate because you though the over was at an end.
    But he wandered down the crease after the keeper had already thrown the ball at the stumps. That's why the ball couldn't be dead, the ball never stopped moving.

    Had the Keeper thrown the ball after the ball was settled and after Barstow started going down the pitch then that'd be awful, but it's not what happened.

    Sorry but switching off your attention is gaining an advantage too. Paying attention is draining, and players need to do it as long as the ball is alive. Barstow didn't. Had he looked at the Keeper he'd have known not to set off down the pitch. As a player it's ridiculous, as a a Keeper himself it's inexcusable.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,928
    Leon said:

    I saw all of that, and I also saw the men on crutches, missing limbs, with major head wounds, etc

    If they want to fight to the last able-bodied man, good luck to them
    "He only does it to annoy ... "
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,006
    Leon said:

    Very few on here would dispute that it is in our interest for Putin to be defeated

    The question is whether he CAN be defeated, at a cost to Ukraine which is justifiable and sustainable, or indeed whether he can be meaningfully defeated at all

    It was in our interests for the commies in Korea to be totally vanquished. In the end that proved impossible, and an armistice was agreed, which reflected the realities of power on the ground
    The worry is people are making up their minds on this prematurely. The war has been going on for only a year and a half. The Korean war waxed and waned for 3 years.

    He could of course be meaningfully defeated very rapidly by direct NATO action were it not for the fear of nuclear weapons. Nuclear blackmail has worked - of course it works. But it's a very dangerous precedent.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,432

    There are lots of different resins, so it's hard to say. I hope that the technology will develop to use more durable materials in this niche of 3d printing.
    IMV we need a material that is perhaps unobtanium: it provides durable 3D prints (for whatever definition of 'durable' you have), yet can easily be cleaned and converted into feedsstock for 3D printing again.
  • Leon said:

    Very few on here would dispute that it is in our interest for Putin to be defeated

    The question is whether he CAN be defeated, at a cost to Ukraine which is justifiable and sustainable, or indeed whether he can be meaningfully defeated at all

    It was in our interests for the commies in Korea to be totally vanquished. In the end that proved impossible, and an armistice was agreed, which reflected the realities of power on the ground
    The Korean War lasted years with an insurgency where the locals opposed America.

    This hasn't lasted years and the locals are opposing Russia.

    Not the same thing. If Ukraine can't win with what we've given them so far, we should give them more. They don't have air superiority yet, they might next summer with enough planes and training.
  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,804

    But he wandered down the crease after the keeper had already thrown the ball at the stumps. That's why the ball couldn't be dead, the ball never stopped moving.

    Had the Keeper thrown the ball after the ball was settled and after Barstow started going down the pitch then that'd be awful, but it's not what happened.

    Sorry but switching off your attention is gaining an advantage too. Paying attention is draining, and players need to do it as long as the ball is alive. Barstow didn't. Had he looked at the Keeper he'd have known not to set off down the pitch. As a player it's ridiculous, as a a Keeper himself it's inexcusable.
    Just more evidence that he isn't a proper 'keeper.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    But he wandered down the crease after the keeper had already thrown the ball at the stumps. That's why the ball couldn't be dead, the ball never stopped moving.

    Had the Keeper thrown the ball after the ball was settled and after Barstow started going down the pitch then that'd be awful, but it's not what happened.

    Sorry but switching off your attention is gaining an advantage too. Paying attention is draining, and players need to do it as long as the ball is alive. Barstow didn't. Had he looked at the Keeper he'd have known not to set off down the pitch. As a player it's ridiculous, as a a Keeper himself it's inexcusable.
    It’s wasn’t in the spirit of the game, from a team known as a bunch of cheats - but at this level you have to play to the whistle.

    As you say he’s a ‘keeper himself, Johnny really should have known better than to put himself in that position.
  • Pagan2 said:

    I suffered the same went to my dads, came back to find my mother had had a clearout of my room and ditched my box of pristine 2000ad comics issues 1 to 50
    Ouch.

    I had similar. Went to University, came back at Christmas and my dad had cleared out most of my miniatures and my White Dwarf collection.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,366

    Big money in sport = corruption. Always.

    The women's game in football will now proceed to demonstrate the problem, once again.
    Big money ANYWHERE = corruption.

    Hence @Cyclefree's illustrious career
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,393
    The Andrew Malkinson case gets worse each time your hear about it.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/16/andrew-malkinson-rape-police-dna-evidence-cps-justice/
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,983

    The Korean War lasted years with an insurgency where the locals opposed America.

    This hasn't lasted years and the locals are opposing Russia.

    Not the same thing. If Ukraine can't win with what we've given them so far, we should give them more. They don't have air superiority yet, they might next summer with enough planes and training.
    Where do you draw the line?

    Would you send NATO troops to fight, directly, for Ukraine?

    If it is that important "we" win, then you surely would. It might be the only way to defeat Putin, and drive him out of Ukraine entirely
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,171
    edited August 2023

    IMV we need a material that is perhaps unobtanium: it provides durable 3D prints (for whatever definition of 'durable' you have), yet can easily be cleaned and converted into feedsstock for 3D printing again.
    That may prove to be the case, but the technology is young enough, and I know little enough about it, that I think there's still a good chance of it improving from where it is now.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,300
    Carnyx said:

    It was actually quite an interesting discussion - something I had been wondering about in general.
    I know about the technology, but not the social field.

    What is the breaking point before *everyone* is making their own miniatures rather than pay the prices? And someone creates a game ecosystem where paying sagans for bits of plastics is *not* a thing?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    edited August 2023

    Ah.

    That may prove to be the case, but the technology is young enough, and I know little enough about it, that I think there's still a good chance of it improving from where it is now.
    The technology’s getting better all the time, the problem GW has is the large overlap between people interested in their products and people interested in 3D printing. The maker community is also very online, and there’s dozens of forums. I’m sure GW will be okay, but they do need to keep a keen eye on technological changes.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    I know about the technology, but not the social field.

    What is the breaking point before *everyone* is making their own miniatures rather than pay the prices? And someone creates a game ecosystem where paying sagans for bits of plastics is *not* a thing?
    Also, third party printing to high quality.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,611

    Ouch.

    I had similar. Went to University, came back at Christmas and my dad had cleared out most of my miniatures and my White Dwarf collection.
    I found, when about 17, a beautiful almost antique microscope in a junk shop. Cleaned it up and was, if only for that, the envy of the Biology VIth. Had it valued at roughly 10x what I’d paid.
    Went off to college and after a couple of term’s decided that I’d like my microscope rather than the college’s.
    Went home, looked for my microscope, to be told my father had given it to one of his friends.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    TimS said:

    The worry is people are making up their minds on this prematurely. The war has been going on for only a year and a half. The Korean war waxed and waned for 3 years.

    He could of course be meaningfully defeated very rapidly by direct NATO action were it not for the fear of nuclear weapons. Nuclear blackmail has worked - of course it works. But it's a very dangerous precedent.
    Wasn't this always the reality? Russian antics in Ukraine are essentially a performance that is being tolerated because of a fear of upsetting the nuclear settlement.

    So why not just bog their largely failed operation down indefinetly, swallowing up all their resources?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,930
    algarkirk said:

    Reflecting just a moment on the Malkinson case, this looks like a case where people over a number of years have acted so notably wrongly and knowingly unjustly that there ought to be prosecutions, civil actions, dismissals and all that.

    So what I wonder is this: Will the decision of the justice department be to hold a public enquiry into the case, and perhaps into a slightly wider remit, for the usual reason of thus being able to deflect all questioning and action onto a much later date when the heat will have dissipated, media will have moved on, and blame dispersed widely enough for no-one to be actually accountable?

    It is, after all, standard procedure. This is one to watch.

    I wonder if there are grounds for a civil suit based on false imprisonment ?
    (Or even malicious prosecution, given the possible exculpatory evidence which the prosecution failed to share with his defence at the time of the original trial.)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,930
    viewcode said:

    The one married to him when he dies wins.
    Pass the withered old parcel.
  • Leon said:

    Where do you draw the line?

    Would you send NATO troops to fight, directly, for Ukraine?

    If it is that important "we" win, then you surely would. It might be the only way to defeat Putin, and drive him out of Ukraine entirely
    I would draw the line at our troops actually overtly fighting. That is the line that has been drawn since World War II.

    Anything short of that line: intelligence, training, support, munitions, weaponry are all on the table.

    The USSR and USA and others have equipped and supported the others enemies in conflicts for the past nearly 80 years. That is the rules of engagement, you can equip and train proxies or allies, but no direct engagement.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    Nigelb said:

    Pass the withered old parcel.
    Real-life version of Succession
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,930
    TimS said:

    The worry is people are making up their minds on this prematurely. The war has been going on for only a year and a half. The Korean war waxed and waned for 3 years.

    He could of course be meaningfully defeated very rapidly by direct NATO action were it not for the fear of nuclear weapons. Nuclear blackmail has worked - of course it works. But it's a very dangerous precedent.
    And the Korean was started out (prior to the invasion from the north) as a genuine civil war.
    This is a straightforward invasion of a sovereign country.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,550

    I have one small bee in my bonnet about the slams - womens games should be 5 sets too, if for no other reason than the drama of a 2-0 down to win 2-3 match. By playing only best of 3, the ladies get to play more doubles tennis, thus increasing their earning potential.

    Ultimately if you play sport and earn huge sums then fair play. But its also important to remember that the highest paid layer is incredibly thin. Most footballers are not on 100K a week. Down in the lower leagues its more in the 30-50K a year. See also cricket, rugby etc
    This is spot on: in tennis, once you go below the top 50, maybe even the top 30, incomes start to drop very sharply. There are players in the top 100 that would earn more money as a rookie policeman in LA.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,171
    edited August 2023

    I know about the technology, but not the social field.

    What is the breaking point before *everyone* is making their own miniatures rather than pay the prices? And someone creates a game ecosystem where paying sagans for bits of plastics is *not* a thing?
    There are some people who commission others to paint their models for them. I've heard of knitters who pay others to sew the pieces together into a finished jumper.

    So you won't ever have everyone home printing, and the market may settle at a point where the printing is done at a local print shop/game store for most people. I gave up on having a home (paper) printer for a while, and printed out the few things I really needed at the library. Wonder how many people have a paper printer at home?

    There are game systems built around home printing, but they're relatively small at the moment. One page rules is the one I'm most familiar with. They operate on a model of providing free rules, a patreon subscription for new digital files every month, or selling individual files. They also sell commercial licenses to people to print the files and sell the models on to others.
    See: onepagerules.com
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,930

    I found, when about 17, a beautiful almost antique microscope in a junk shop. Cleaned it up and was, if only for that, the envy of the Biology VIth. Had it valued at roughly 10x what I’d paid.
    Went off to college and after a couple of term’s decided that I’d like my microscope rather than the college’s.
    Went home, looked for my microscope, to be told my father had given it to one of his friends.
    Couldn't you have asked for it back ? :smile:
  • IMV we need a material that is perhaps unobtanium: it provides durable 3D prints (for whatever definition of 'durable' you have), yet can easily be cleaned and converted into feedsstock for 3D printing again.
    This is somewhat possible today, at least with FDM printing. PLA and PETG can be recycled into usable filament if you have the correct equipment - there's quite an amusing niche of people feeding used PETG drinks bottles into a machine that turns it into filament for printing.

    But those machines are still rare and nobody does commercial recycling suitable for discarded 3D prints, so they go to landfill mostly.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,300
    a
    Carnyx said:

    Also, third party printing to high quality.
    Third party to high quality is generally blocked from personal use by costs - which are dominated by setup etc.

    So I can get an abstract shape printed in by a company - but most of what they chargé is setup, finishing, and all the touch work.

    The fascinating bit is the slow dissemination of better printers at the hobbyist prices.

    Which will have other knock on effects in society.

    Gun Jesus on coil guns - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwHRjgVWFno

    You could make everything in that with 3D printing, buy some anodyne electrical components, and hand wind the coils.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,869

    I found, when about 17, a beautiful almost antique microscope in a junk shop. Cleaned it up and was, if only for that, the envy of the Biology VIth. Had it valued at roughly 10x what I’d paid.
    Went off to college and after a couple of term’s decided that I’d like my microscope rather than the college’s.
    Went home, looked for my microscope, to be told my father had given it to one of his friends.
    Mine lost my Bond novels collection. Had every one in the pan original. Also lost a demo tape of me singing 3 songs, Blackbird, Psychokiller and The Weight.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,432

    there are some people who commission others to paint their models for them. I've heard of knitters who pay others to sew the pieces together into a finished jumper.

    So you won't ever have everyone home printing, and the market may settle at a point where the printing is done at a local print shop/game store for most people. I gave up on having a home (paper) printer for a while, and printed out the few things I really needed at the library. Wonder how many people have a paper printer at home?

    There are game systems built around home printing, but they're relatively small at the moment. One page rules is the one I'm most familiar with. They operate on a model of providing free rules, a patreon subscription for new digital files every month, or selling individual files. They also sell commercial licenses to people to print the files and sell the models on to others.
    See: onepagerules.com
    "Wonder how many people have a paper printer at home?"

    I use an Epson EcoTank, and it's blooming brilliant. My old printer's ink was so expensive that I did not use it often. This meant that the heads needed cleaning/aligning to get a good print, which would use up some of the ink.

    EcoTank ink is relatively cheap, and lasts an age, whilst the print quality is more than good enough for my purposes. It's really made my printer a useful object once again.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,983

    I would draw the line at our troops actually overtly fighting. That is the line that has been drawn since World War II.

    Anything short of that line: intelligence, training, support, munitions, weaponry are all on the table.

    The USSR and USA and others have equipped and supported the others enemies in conflicts for the past nearly 80 years. That is the rules of engagement, you can equip and train proxies or allies, but no direct engagement.
    Fair enough

    My feeling is there might come a point when we need to take Ukraine aside and give them honest advice

    It's a bit like watching a brave friend taking on a horrible bully three times his size. You cheer on your friend, you support him as much as you can, but what if it looks like the only way he can fight the bully off is by fighting so hard and desperately he loses both eyes, one arm, a leg and gets brain damage from the battering?

    Is that really "winning"?

    A good friend and ally gives support and assistance, but also truthful opinions, even if they are uncomfortable
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,930
    This is the other answer to Russia, if there were the international will.

    https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1691799606777040908
    Daily reminder

    1. Complex weapons such as the WMD/delivery systems include precise parts

    2. Production of precise parts relies on subtractive processes

    3. Which had overwhelmingly relied on the manual control even in 1991

    4. But have been radically computerized since then...


    14. Domestic production = assembling machines from the European/Japanese components

    15. There is almost zero Russian components in Russia-produced machines

    16. (Except for beddings, casings, some non precision bearings, etc)

    17. Everything requiring precision is imported...


    20. Consistently, the Russian military manufacturing base consists of:

    First and foremost, Western European
    Then, Japanese, Taiwanese and Korean
    And to a far lesser degree North American equipment

    These are the machines that secure Russian capacity to produce weaponry.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,432

    That may prove to be the case, but the technology is young enough, and I know little enough about it, that I think there's still a good chance of it improving from where it is now.
    I've no doubt it'll improve. So will the number of people who can design things in 3D packages, and have the skills to use various types of printers to their optimum.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,208
    Leon said:

    Fair enough

    My feeling is there might come a point when we need to take Ukraine aside and give them honest advice

    It's a bit like watching a brave friend taking on a horrible bully three times his size. You cheer on your friend, you support him as much as you can, but what if it looks like the only way he can fight the bully off is by fighting so hard and desperately he loses both eyes, one arm, a leg and gets brain damage from the battering?

    Is that really "winning"?

    A good friend and ally gives support and assistance, but also truthful opinions, even if they are uncomfortable
    I think you'd need to provide an alternative though, so they can claim a win. Securing the Black Sea, or something like Iron Dome for their cities.

    As recently as June 21 we had a destroyer floating around Crimea.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,501

    I see that 92 year old Rupert Murdoch is “dating again”, this time to 66 year old Elena Zhukov, mother of Roman Abramovich’s ex-wife Darya.

    Not as bad as Al Pacino having a kid at 82.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,300
    A

    I've no doubt it'll improve. So will the number of people who can design things in 3D packages, and have the skills to use various types of printers to their optimum.
    You can print in many materials, including some very, very hard metals.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,171
    edited August 2023
    Leon said:

    Fair enough

    My feeling is there might come a point when we need to take Ukraine aside and give them honest advice

    It's a bit like watching a brave friend taking on a horrible bully three times his size. You cheer on your friend, you support him as much as you can, but what if it looks like the only way he can fight the bully off is by fighting so hard and desperately he loses both eyes, one arm, a leg and gets brain damage from the battering?

    Is that really "winning"?

    A good friend and ally gives support and assistance, but also truthful opinions, even if they are uncomfortable
    I'm struggling to think of a precedent where such an approach has led to a good outcome.

    I feel like the West should have the economic and military strength to be able to provide Ukraine with the supplies, equipment and training it requires to defeat the Russian Army.

    If we're not, or not willing to do so, I think that has massive geopolitical repercussions which will be extremely negative.

    It's in part a litmus test of whether there's any advantage in being friendly with the West, or if countries should look elsewhere for security assistance.
  • Leon said:

    Fair enough

    My feeling is there might come a point when we need to take Ukraine aside and give them honest advice

    It's a bit like watching a brave friend taking on a horrible bully three times his size. You cheer on your friend, you support him as much as you can, but what if it looks like the only way he can fight the bully off is by fighting so hard and desperately he loses both eyes, one arm, a leg and gets brain damage from the battering?

    Is that really "winning"?

    A good friend and ally gives support and assistance, but also truthful opinions, even if they are uncomfortable
    But Russia isn't a bully three times Ukraine's size.

    It's a weak, impoverished, decrepit, sanctioned nation without good logistics or ability to replenish it's forces, hiding behind layers of landmines in order to avoid losing the land it has illegally and temporarily seized.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,300
    kinabalu said:

    Mine lost my Bond novels collection. Had every one in the pan original. Also lost a demo tape of me singing 3 songs, Blackbird, Psychokiller and The Weight.
    My dad gave away a large quantity of top notch lab glassware, including some Liebig condensers that were works of art. Sob.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    Nigelb said:

    This is the other answer to Russia, if there were the international will.

    https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1691799606777040908
    Daily reminder

    1. Complex weapons such as the WMD/delivery systems include precise parts

    2. Production of precise parts relies on subtractive processes

    3. Which had overwhelmingly relied on the manual control even in 1991

    4. But have been radically computerized since then...


    14. Domestic production = assembling machines from the European/Japanese components

    15. There is almost zero Russian components in Russia-produced machines

    16. (Except for beddings, casings, some non precision bearings, etc)

    17. Everything requiring precision is imported...


    20. Consistently, the Russian military manufacturing base consists of:

    First and foremost, Western European
    Then, Japanese, Taiwanese and Korean
    And to a far lesser degree North American equipment

    These are the machines that secure Russian capacity to produce weaponry.

    Absolutely, there’s a lot of Western capital equipment in Russia, much of which will become unserviceable over time if sanctions hold. Hence their pulling 50-year-old tanks out of Siberia, because they’re much easier to get working than anything they’re building new. Even a lot of the old Soviet planes used parts from Ukraine, and Western planes are already being cannibalised for parts.

    O&G industry, Russia’s primary source of hard currency, will be particularly badly affected - yet another reason for OPEC to drive the price down in the short term.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,930
    kinabalu said:

    Mine lost my Bond novels collection. Had every one in the pan original. Also lost a demo tape of me singing 3 songs, Blackbird, Psychokiller and The Weight.
    So on the one hand; on the other...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,930
    edited August 2023
    Sandpit said:

    Absolutely, there’s a lot of Western capital equipment in Russia, much of which will become unserviceable over time if sanctions hold..
    The west isn't effectively sanctioning supplies for machine tools.

    For example.

    Start with abolishing this imbecile (or cunning) exemption in the EU sanction regime
    https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1691822864834396225
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,715

    My dad gave away a large quantity of top notch lab glassware, including some Liebig condensers that were works of art. Sob.
    Perfect for the crystal meth lab too
  • Sandpit said:

    Absolutely, there’s a lot of Western capital equipment in Russia, much of which will become unserviceable over time if sanctions hold. Hence their pulling 50-year-old tanks out of Siberia, because they’re much easier to get working than anything they’re building new. Even a lot of the old Soviet planes used parts from Ukraine, and Western planes are already being cannibalised for parts.

    O&G industry, Russia’s primary source of hard currency, will be particularly badly affected - yet another reason for OPEC to drive the price down in the short term.
    Yes. Ukraine's forces are continuously improving. They haven't even got the jets that we are training them to fly in the air yet.

    Russia's forces are continuously deteriorating. They lack the capability under sanctions to replace that which they are losing, let alone improve their forces.

    As long as the West holds it's nerve, momemtum in this war is going one way. Logistics wins wars and Russia doesn't have it.

    Hence the desperation of their proxies suggesting we should just call this a draw now and go into a frozen conflict. Because they know Russia isn't capable of pushing on, but Ukraine is.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,908

    I would draw the line at our troops actually overtly fighting. That is the line that has been drawn since World War II.

    Anything short of that line: intelligence, training, support, munitions, weaponry are all on the table.

    The USSR and USA and others have equipped and supported the others enemies in conflicts for the past nearly 80 years. That is the rules of engagement, you can equip and train proxies or allies, but no direct engagement.
    This argument hinges on a very nebulous distinction between the US, the broader West and its allies.

    If you try to fall back on the logic of the Cold War then you end up in a contradiction where Ukraine is simultaneously 'us' and 'not us'.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,171
    edited August 2023
    Nigelb said:

    The west isn't effectively sanctioning supplies for machine tools.
    Russia has been able to obtain Western components relatively easily through third countries. There's been a reluctance to tighten up on this.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,300
    A

    Perfect for the crystal meth lab too
    That's not meth
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 2,109
    viewcode said:

    * All the cameras are pointed away from the lady making the serve. Bonus points if you can remind me in which Hitchcock film something similar was a plot point.

    Strangers on a Train? Love that scene at the end with the runaway carousel.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    edited August 2023
    Nigelb said:

    The west isn't effectively sanctioning supplies for machine tools.

    For example.

    Start with abolishing this imbecile (or cunning) exemption in the EU sanction regime
    https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1691822864834396225
    If they can update software remotely, they can likely brick it remotely too ;)

    (Yes, let’s see sanctions on equipment parts and servicing made much tighter).
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,300
    A
    Sandpit said:

    If they can update software remotely, they can likely brick it remotely too ;)

    (Yes, let’s see sanctions on equipment parts and servicing made much tighter).
    Apparently, John Deere has been remote bricking stolen Ukrainian farm machinery, taken by the Russians.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    A

    Apparently, John Deere has been remote bricking stolen Ukrainian farm machinery, taken by the Russians.
    Glad to see that even the scummiest of companies, can sometimes be persuaded to do the right thing!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,908

    Russia has been able to obtain Western components relatively easily through third countries. There's been a reluctance to tighten up on this.
    German exports to Kyrgyzstan are up 1000%, which is obviously acting as a backdoor into Russia.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,171
    Sandpit said:

    If they can update software remotely, they can likely brick it remotely too ;)
    But. Hasn't happened yet.

    Ukraine keep on pointing out that Russia is still producing missiles made with Western components. If we have new chips going into Russian missiles you'd think there would be some subterfuge that could be employed to have the missiles return to sender, or detonate aloft, etc, but it hasn't happened.

    You get the sense that the West hasn't fully committed to a Russian defeat.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,300
    a
    Sandpit said:

    Glad to see that even the scummiest of companies, can sometimes be persuaded to do the right thing!
    Apparently it's the flip side of their scumminess. Yes, you are locked to their repair centre, parts etc. And they will brick it if you break their rules. But if you report your tractor stolen, they will brick it remotely.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    German exports to Kyrgyzstan are up 1000%, which is obviously acting as a backdoor into Russia.
    Sounds like a few German executives need to be eating porridge. That’s blatant sanctions-busting.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,300

    But. Hasn't happened yet.

    Ukraine keep on pointing out that Russia is still producing missiles made with Western components. If we have new chips going into Russian missiles you'd think there would be some subterfuge that could be employed to have the missiles return to sender, or detonate aloft, etc, but it hasn't happened.

    You get the sense that the West hasn't fully committed to a Russian defeat.
    There was a book I read, a long time back, about how MI6 recruited all the shady arms salesmen to not quite sell stuff to the Argentines during the Falklands War. Wasted vast amounts of Argentine money and time on weapons that never quite arrived.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,588
    When you watch Gloucestershire, it really is the hope that kills you.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,880

    a

    Apparently it's the flip side of their scumminess. Yes, you are locked to their repair centre, parts etc. And they will brick it if you break their rules. But if you report your tractor stolen, they will brick it remotely.
    I had no idea John Deere were known to be a scummy company. And I'm slightly taken aback that pb.com is so au fait with the tractor market that this is apparently well known on here.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,908
    ydoethur said:

    When you watch Gloucestershire, it really is the hope that kills you.

    Hoping to escape across the border to England?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,869
    Nigelb said:

    So on the one hand; on the other...
    lol yes - that tape might not have been 'lost'.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,983
    edited August 2023

    But Russia isn't a bully three times Ukraine's size.

    It's a weak, impoverished, decrepit, sanctioned nation without good logistics or ability to replenish it's forces, hiding behind layers of landmines in order to avoid losing the land it has illegally and temporarily seized.
    Hmm


    There was an excellent article in the NYT recently which discussed measures of economic might (which feeds into military might), specifically GDP nominal versus GDP by PPP

    The writer posited the idea that this war is showing that GDP by PPP is more important when assessing miltary strength

    On GDP nominal Russia is relatiely weedy: down at 11th, behind Canada and Italy, and way behind Germany, UK, France

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

    However on GDP by PPP Russia is bigger than any European nation apart from Germany (it is almost as big as Germany) and is 6th in the world


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)

    Does this explain Russia's unexpected resilience and strength after so many profound setbacks? Perhaps it does. Also Russia's sheer size, wealth of raw materials and population (however drunk) must likewise be factored in. Meanwhile, western sanctions have not really had the impact we'd hoped, mainly because Russia is being supported by China, which is providing technology, and is also helping Russia to export oil and gas, and is helping Moscow bypass sanctions via friendly 3rd countries, etc

    By PPP China is, of course, the most powerful economy on earth, as well as the world's biggest trader, and 2nd largest nation by sheer size (just behind India, which appears neutral in this war)

    We may have reached a geopolitical inflection point where we butt up against the limits of western power

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,300
    A
    Cookie said:

    I had no idea John Deere were known to be a scummy company. And I'm slightly taken aback that pb.com is so au fait with the tractor market that this is apparently well known on here.
    It's an IT thing - the issue about remote updates, the company believing that they are really renting you the product they sold you etc etc.

    Coming to a car near you, quite soon.

    The only reason it hasn't been more of thing in the car world, is that Tesla, who pioneered rolling out much of the idea of centralised computers in cars, over the air updates etc haven't been really heavy handed with it yet.

    The biggest one I recall was a chap who rebuilt a crashed Tesla, only to find that it was in their database as written off - it was a write off by the insurance company. So his Tesla can't charge at a Tesla supercharger.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    Cookie said:

    I had no idea John Deere were known to be a scummy company. And I'm slightly taken aback that pb.com is so au fait with the tractor market that this is apparently well known on here.
    They’re the poster-child for the right-to-repair movement in the US. Almost all of their components are keyed to the vehicle in software, and error codes can only be reset by the dealer. In a time-critical situation such as a harvest, it can take days to get someone out to fix it, even if it’s just a sensor fault.

    https://slashdot.org/index2.pl?fhfilter=John+Deere Dozens of articles about Deere, from a computing blog.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,171

    There was a book I read, a long time back, about how MI6 recruited all the shady arms salesmen to not quite sell stuff to the Argentines during the Falklands War. Wasted vast amounts of Argentine money and time on weapons that never quite arrived.
    Right. So MI6 not having such a good war then. Surely they should have been investing in the Krygyrz logistics industry so that Western components somehow got lost on their way to Russia?

    I've been impressed with how Iranian and Pakistani artillery ammunition has ended up in Ukrainian hands, despite the friendliness of both governments towards Russia - clearly some good work on the shady parts of the international arms markets going on - but to have newly manufactured Russian missiles still have dozens of Western components? Something going wrong there.
  • Leon said:

    Hmm


    There was an excellent article in the NYT recently which discussed measures of economic might (which feeds into military might), specifically GDP nominal versus GDP by PPP

    The writer posited the idea that this war is showing that GDP by PPP is more important when assessing miltary strength

    On GDP nominal Russia is relatiely weedy: down at 11th, behind Canada and Italy, and way behind Germany, UK, France

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

    However on GDP by PPP Russia is bigger than any European nation apart from Germany (it is almost as big as Germany) and is 6th in the world


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)

    Does this explain Russia's unexpected resilience and strength after so many profound setbacks? Perhaps it does. Also Russua's sheer size, wealth of raw mterials and population (however drunk) must likewise be factored in. Meanwhile, western sanctions have not really had the impact we'd hoped, mainly because Russia is being supported by China, which is providing technology, and is also helping Russia to export oil and gas, and bypass sanctions via friendly 3rd countries, etc

    By PPP China is, of course, the most powerful economy on earth, as well as the world's biggest trader, and 2nd largest nation by sheer size (just behind India, which appears neutral in this war)

    We may have reached a geopolitical inflection point where we butt up against the limits of western power

    So Russia is an impoverished, sanctioned backswater compared to the economic might of NATO combined?

    And exactly what profound resilience has Russia shown?

    It went in expecting to overpower Kyiv in days.

    It's now hiding behind landmines as it's too scared of Ukraine to fight directly and is trying desperately to cling on to that which it has gained.

    If Russia were "strong" as claimed it would be seeking to keep conquering lands until the whole of Ukraine has fallen. Not desperately hoping for a stalemate.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,006
    Sandpit said:

    Sounds like a few German executives need to be eating porridge. That’s blatant sanctions-busting.
    Though the maths probably exaggerates the problem here a bit. 1000% of what was presumably a minuscule amount before the war is I would assume still a fraction of pre-war exports to Russia. But we’d need to add up all export growth from Western countries to likely Russian backdoors to get a sense of relative scale.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 2,109

    There are some people who commission others to paint their models for them. I've heard of knitters who pay others to sew the pieces together into a finished jumper.

    So you won't ever have everyone home printing, and the market may settle at a point where the printing is done at a local print shop/game store for most people. I gave up on having a home (paper) printer for a while, and printed out the few things I really needed at the library. Wonder how many people have a paper printer at home?

    There are game systems built around home printing, but they're relatively small at the moment. One page rules is the one I'm most familiar with. They operate on a model of providing free rules, a patreon subscription for new digital files every month, or selling individual files. They also sell commercial licenses to people to print the files and sell the models on to others.
    See: onepagerules.com
    Large models - The upper storey dragons here were 3D printed so they could be scaled down from a carved original replacement, and also to reduce the weight.
    https://www.kew.org/kew-gardens/whats-in-the-gardens/the-great-pagoda
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,983
    The brute fact is, economically, the west is no longer hegemonic. For the first time in two centuries

    The non-West is now as economically powerful as the West, mainly because of China

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)

    In Ukraine we may be seeing this pivotal change, as it plays out in bloody reality
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,869
    Nigelb said:

    And the Korean was started out (prior to the invasion from the north) as a genuine civil war.
    This is a straightforward invasion of a sovereign country.
    It's quite an unusual war in that all of the blame for it is on one party. Normally you get some arguability around that.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,983

    So Russia is an impoverished, sanctioned backswater compared to the economic might of NATO combined?

    And exactly what profound resilience has Russia shown?

    It went in expecting to overpower Kyiv in days.

    It's now hiding behind landmines as it's too scared of Ukraine to fight directly and is trying desperately to cling on to that which it has gained.

    If Russia were "strong" as claimed it would be seeking to keep conquering lands until the whole of Ukraine has fallen. Not desperately hoping for a stalemate.
    Why is every response you make so histrionic and emotional?

    I'm not averse to drunkne hyperbole myself, but there's a time and place. Argue the points, don't just emote
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,588
    Leon said:

    The brute fact is, economically, the west is no longer hegemonic. For the first time in two centuries

    The non-West is now as economically powerful as the West, mainly because of China

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)

    In Ukraine we may be seeing this pivotal change, as it plays out in bloody reality

    Bit early for you to be drunk, isn't it?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    TimS said:

    Though the maths probably exaggerates the problem here a bit. 1000% of what was presumably a minuscule amount before the war is I would assume still a fraction of pre-war exports to Russia. But we’d need to add up all export growth from Western countries to likely Russian backdoors to get a sense of relative scale.
    Oh indeed, but a small number up 10x should ring alarm bells in Germany, in a way that a small increase in the large China and India markets might not.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,983
    ydoethur said:

    Bit early for you to be drunk, isn't it?
    This is really fecking tiresome. In what way is my pointing out a simple fact of global economics, somehow evidence that I am "drunk"?

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,432

    Right. So MI6 not having such a good war then. Surely they should have been investing in the Krygyrz logistics industry so that Western components somehow got lost on their way to Russia?

    I've been impressed with how Iranian and Pakistani artillery ammunition has ended up in Ukrainian hands, despite the friendliness of both governments towards Russia - clearly some good work on the shady parts of the international arms markets going on - but to have newly manufactured Russian missiles still have dozens of Western components? Something going wrong there.
    "Western components" can do a heck of a lot of heavy lifting.

    If you make a widget in the millions, and sell to third party distributors, it can be next to impossible to say where they'll end up. These may be components that sell for a couple of quid, and they only need one per plane.

    Then there's the fakes as well: an Irish company called Tillotson has components in Russian UAVs; but they claim that they're actually Chinese fakes - something they've apparently had trouble with in the past.

    There are problems with Russia relying on the grey market. When a computer chip is made - particularly 'interesting' ones - they go through a grading process after they are made, called binning. The military pay *a lot* extra for their chips, to ensure they get the 'best' ones for their purpose. And when I say a lot, it can be orders of magnitude more - because they can require lots of extra tests. The Russians will *not* be getting the best chips, and perhaps even ones that only just scraped through the consumer tests. The sweepings off the foundry floor, perhaps.

  • Leon said:

    The brute fact is, economically, the west is no longer hegemonic. For the first time in two centuries

    The non-West is now as economically powerful as the West, mainly because of China

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)

    In Ukraine we may be seeing this pivotal change, as it plays out in bloody reality

    Why would we? China is not Russia.

    China has no love for the West but it also has no love lost for Russia. They're rivals not allies in the East. That's why while we have been pumping arms into Ukraine, China have barely lifted a finger.

    China in the 20th century had to play second fiddle to Russia/USSR. China is interested in China and it wants Chinese hegemony in the East, to which Russia is a threat.

    Russia still occupies much former Chinese territory that China covets.

    Seeking Russia ground down and losing its power status is in China's own strategic interests. A humble, defeated Russia falling under China's sphere of influence, in the East at least, if not acquiring some Russia land directly is absolutely fine for China.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,588
    Leon said:

    This is really fecking tiresome. In what way is my pointing out a simple fact of global economics, somehow evidence that I am "drunk"?

    Because it's the sort of thing you usually post when you're drunk.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,300
    a
    Leon said:

    This is really fecking tiresome. In what way is my pointing out a simple fact of global economics, somehow evidence that I am "drunk"?

    The idea that the West ever had untrammelled power is not supported by the facts.

    Russian can’t win a war against *Ukraine* - which is being supported with NATOs odd socks and stuff that was in the garage sale. The American contribution is a few percent of their military spending.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,432
    Leon said:

    The brute fact is, economically, the west is no longer hegemonic. For the first time in two centuries

    The non-West is now as economically powerful as the West, mainly because of China

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)

    In Ukraine we may be seeing this pivotal change, as it plays out in bloody reality

    If you believe China's GDP figures:
    https://www.marketplace.org/2023/07/17/is-gdp-still-a-useful-gauge-of-chinas-economy/
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,869
    Leon said:

    The brute fact is, economically, the west is no longer hegemonic. For the first time in two centuries

    The non-West is now as economically powerful as the West, mainly because of China

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)

    In Ukraine we may be seeing this pivotal change, as it plays out in bloody reality

    Well this is meant to be the Chinese Century - which I take to mean the period where they supplant the US as the world's biggest banana.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    "Western components" can do a heck of a lot of heavy lifting.

    If you make a widget in the millions, and sell to third party distributors, it can be next to impossible to say where they'll end up. These may be components that sell for a couple of quid, and they only need one per plane.

    Then there's the fakes as well: an Irish company called Tillotson has components in Russian UAVs; but they claim that they're actually Chinese fakes - something they've apparently had trouble with in the past.

    There are problems with Russia relying on the grey market. When a computer chip is made - particularly 'interesting' ones - they go through a grading process after they are made, called binning. The military pay *a lot* extra for their chips, to ensure they get the 'best' ones for their purpose. And when I say a lot, it can be orders of magnitude more - because they can require lots of extra tests. The Russians will *not* be getting the best chips, and perhaps even ones that only just scraped through the consumer tests. The sweepings off the foundry floor, perhaps.

    Fake Chinese plane (and car) parts is a massive problem at the moment. There were several tonnes of fake Airbus parts seized in the sandpit a few months back, en route from China to Africa.
  • Leon said:

    Why is every response you make so histrionic and emotional?

    I'm not averse to drunkne hyperbole myself, but there's a time and place. Argue the points, don't just emote
    LOL that has to win top prize of projectionism ever. You calling others histrionic and emotional ...

    I did argue the points. The point is Russia is not strong. The point is Russia is hiding hoping that landmines or an armistice allow it to hold on to what they have seized as they know they're too weak to keep fighting directly.

    Russia is not a powerful bear. It's not a world conquering army. And they absolutely can be defeated.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,983

    Why would we? China is not Russia.

    China has no love for the West but it also has no love lost for Russia. They're rivals not allies in the East. That's why while we have been pumping arms into Ukraine, China have barely lifted a finger.

    China in the 20th century had to play second fiddle to Russia/USSR. China is interested in China and it wants Chinese hegemony in the East, to which Russia is a threat.

    Russia still occupies much former Chinese territory that China covets.

    Seeking Russia ground down and losing its power status is in China's own strategic interests. A humble, defeated Russia falling under China's sphere of influence, in the East at least, if not acquiring some Russia land directly is absolutely fine for China.
    Do more reading


    "China’s support may not be ‘lethal aid,’ but it’s vital to Russia’s aggression in Ukraine"

    https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/chinas-support-may-not-be-lethal-aid-but-its-vital-to-russias-aggression-in-ukraine/

    "How China Could Save Putin’s War in Ukraine
    The Logic—and Consequences—of Chinese Military Support for Russia"

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/china/how-china-could-save-putins-war-ukraine

    "China agreed to secretly arm Russia, leaked Pentagon documents reveal

    Intercept of Russian intelligence shows Beijing wanted to disguise lethal aid as civilian items, says report"

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/apr/14/china-agreed-secretly-arm-russia-leaked-pentagon-documents-reveal

    This just two weeks ago:


    "China helps Russia evade sanctions and likely most supplies tech used in Ukraine, U.S. report says
    Chinese state-owned defense firms have shipped navigation equipment, fighter jet parts and other dual-use technology to Russian defense companies, a U.S. intelligence report said."

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/china-helps-russia-evade-sanctions-tech-used-ukraine-war-rcna96693
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,790
    Leon said:

    The brute fact is, economically, the west is no longer hegemonic. For the first time in two centuries

    The non-West is now as economically powerful as the West, mainly because of China

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)

    In Ukraine we may be seeing this pivotal change, as it plays out in bloody reality

    The West is due for a shock as the world moves away from being US\Europe centred to Asia\Africa.

    It means the likes of Rory Stewart cab no longer waitz about the world and tell the peasants what to do. The world is reshaping and the West needs to work out how to deal with it.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795
    Leon said:

    This is really fecking tiresome. In what way is my pointing out a simple fact of global economics, somehow evidence that I am "drunk"?

    Marginally preferable, perhaps, to being cast as a "Putinist apologist", which is next on the stock list for the PB Toy Soldiers
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,869
    Leon said:

    Why is every response you make so histrionic and emotional?

    I'm not averse to drunkne hyperbole myself, but there's a time and place. Argue the points, don't just emote
    Are we going to get a prolonged bout of your needling pessimism vs his gung ho posturing?

    That'll be great.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,588

    Marginally preferable, perhaps, to being cast as a "Putinist apologist", which is next on the stock list for the PB Toy Soldiers
    You would have been genuinely shocked if you'd been with me yesterday at Tesco.

    Two seventeen year olds, waiting to pay at the self service.

    I ask if they're going to use the till that's just become free.

    'Nah, we're waiting for the ones that take cash,' came the reply.
  • Leon said:

    Do more reading


    "China’s support may not be ‘lethal aid,’ but it’s vital to Russia’s aggression in Ukraine"

    https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/chinas-support-may-not-be-lethal-aid-but-its-vital-to-russias-aggression-in-ukraine/

    "How China Could Save Putin’s War in Ukraine
    The Logic—and Consequences—of Chinese Military Support for Russia"

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/china/how-china-could-save-putins-war-ukraine

    "China agreed to secretly arm Russia, leaked Pentagon documents reveal

    Intercept of Russian intelligence shows Beijing wanted to disguise lethal aid as civilian items, says report"

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/apr/14/china-agreed-secretly-arm-russia-leaked-pentagon-documents-reveal

    This just two weeks ago:


    "China helps Russia evade sanctions and likely most supplies tech used in Ukraine, U.S. report says
    Chinese state-owned defense firms have shipped navigation equipment, fighter jet parts and other dual-use technology to Russian defense companies, a U.S. intelligence report said."

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/china-helps-russia-evade-sanctions-tech-used-ukraine-war-rcna96693
    I suggest you read what is being written.

    China is trying to make a quick buck where it can, that's not new. But it is not using it's military industrial complex to send billions of munitions into Russia like NATO is. These things are different by an order of magnitude.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,930
    Leon said:

    The brute fact is, economically, the west is no longer hegemonic. For the first time in two centuries

    The non-West is now as economically powerful as the West, mainly because of China

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)

    In Ukraine we may be seeing this pivotal change, as it plays out in bloody reality

    Except in the case of precision machine tools, that is not the case.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,300

    Right. So MI6 not having such a good war then. Surely they should have been investing in the Krygyrz logistics industry so that Western components somehow got lost on their way to Russia?

    I've been impressed with how Iranian and Pakistani artillery ammunition has ended up in Ukrainian hands, despite the friendliness of both governments towards Russia - clearly some good work on the shady parts of the international arms markets going on - but to have newly manufactured Russian missiles still have dozens of Western components? Something going wrong there.
    We don't know. Nor will we, for years. There are reports of all kinds of shortages in the Russian industrial supply chain - which have hammered tank production, for example.

    For all we know the Russians are getting prompt delivery of tools that help do this -

    image
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,983

    a

    The idea that the West ever had untrammelled power is not supported by the facts.

    Russian can’t win a war against *Ukraine* - which is being supported with NATOs odd socks and stuff that was in the garage sale. The American contribution is a few percent of their military spending.
    The West probably never had total military supremacy, unless you count the weird brief years from 1945-1949 when the US was the only nation with nukes

    But have we ever had total economic supremacy? Absolutely. And for two centuries at least, from 1800 or so to about 2000-2010, first via the Birtish Empire, then the American empire, along with massive western advantages in all kinds of technology

    Nearly all that advantage has now gone. We were once able to impose our will on the world, and shape it, via economics if not arms. We can't do that any more. It is an enormous change
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,300

    Marginally preferable, perhaps, to being cast as a "Putinist apologist", which is next on the stock list for the PB Toy Soldiers
    Isn't "PB Toy Soldiers" the stock phrase of "Putinist apologists" ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,930
    This is one of the principle reasons I resent Musk's owernership of Twitter.

    Thousands of scientists are cutting back on Twitter, seeding angst and uncertainty
    A Nature survey reveals scientists’ reasons for leaving the social-media platform now known as X, and what they are doing to build and maintain a sense of community.
    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-02554-0
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,282
    Here's a question for WW II experts. Were the "flail tanks" of that era effective? Would more of them for Ukraine make sense, militarily?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_flail

    Is it possible to produce them quickly? Even better, can we produce remote-controlled anti-mine vehicles, quickly?

    (Ukraine already has a few: https://mil.in.ua/en/news/ukraine-receives-german-mine-clearing-tanks/ )
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,983

    I suggest you read what is being written.

    China is trying to make a quick buck where it can, that's not new. But it is not using it's military industrial complex to send billions of munitions into Russia like NATO is. These things are different by an order of magnitude.
    You claimed that China wasn't "lifting a finger" to help Russia

    I proved that this is laughably wrong, with multiple citations (unlike you)

    You merely bloviate and emote, and you do it without wit, humour or insight. This is a ridiculous waste of my precious time, I am off to do some work. Anon
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,006
    kinabalu said:

    Well this is meant to be the Chinese Century - which I take to mean the period where they supplant the US as the world's biggest banana.
    It’s going to be a very interesting race: between demographics (which favour the US), momentum (which favours China) and strategy (which remains all to play for). A race China should win easily but may take a little longer to get there. And could conceivably lose again later in the century.

    In PPP it already is: China has overtaken the US. In dollars it isn’t yet.

    Chinese GDP according to the World Bank was $17.9trn last year. US GDP was $25.5trn.

    If China grows at 6% per annum and the US by 2% then in 9 years they will pass each other. But if China’s growth rate falls even a couple of percentage points it could take a much longer time. By which point the shrinking population could start to tell. Especially if net migration into the US keeps up.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,300
    A
    ydoethur said:

    You would have been genuinely shocked if you'd been with me yesterday at Tesco.

    Two seventeen year olds, waiting to pay at the self service.

    I ask if they're going to use the till that's just become free.

    'Nah, we're waiting for the ones that take cash,' came the reply.
    I trust you handed them in for public execution? For Crimes Against A Cashless Society?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,880
    ydoethur said:

    You would have been genuinely shocked if you'd been with me yesterday at Tesco.

    Two seventeen year olds, waiting to pay at the self service.

    I ask if they're going to use the till that's just become free.

    'Nah, we're waiting for the ones that take cash,' came the reply.
    I'm actually quite surprised how often the card only tills are free as people queue fir the cash ones.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,588

    We don't know. Nor will we, for years. There are reports of all kinds of shortages in the Russian industrial supply chain - which have hammered tank production, for example.

    For all we know the Russians are getting prompt delivery of tools that help do this -

    image
    Oh come on. They have an unlimited supply of world-beating tools.

    Putin, Lavrov, Medvedev, Trump...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,588

    A

    I trust you handed them in for public execution? For Crimes Against A Cashless Society?
    Well, when people want Cash, I just send them a Bill.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,432
    Leon said:

    The West probably never had total military supremacy, unless you count the weird brief years from 1945-1949 when the US was the only nation with nukes

    But have we ever had total economic supremacy? Absolutely. And for two centuries at least, from 1800 or so to about 2000-2010, first via the Birtish Empire, then the American empire, along with massive western advantages in all kinds of technology

    Nearly all that advantage has now gone. We were once able to impose our will on the world, and shape it, via economics if not arms. We can't do that any more. It is an enormous change
    I'd argue we had near military supremacy, if not military supremacy, from the fall of Communis to (say) 2010. Or about thirty years. As we've seen, Russia's military rapidly became a basketcase.

    As for economics: it probably depends on who 'we' are in the 'West'. The disintegration of the USSR has led to a massive diminution of their GDP, and large parts of their GDP coming into Europe, and therefore the 'west''s sphere of influence. The west's economic influence may be very strong still.

    IMV it's not purely about China; it's about India and other large developing countries, especially in Africa.
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