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Trump edges up the WH2024 betting – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,153
edited August 2023 in General
imageTrump edges up the WH2024 betting – politicalbetting.com

The chart shows the changes in the WH2024 betting and as can be seen the money has been going on Trump following the latest developments with his various criminal cases.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,653
    First
  • How can Trump stand for a "third" term in 2024 if he "won" a second term in 2020?
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited August 2023
    The obvious short on that chart is RFKJr, because if (as is likely) the star of at least one out of Biden and Trump begins to wane, it won't be to his benefit.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,022
    Peck said:

    The obvious short on that chart is RFKJr, because if (as is likely) the star of at least one out of Biden and Trump begins to wane, it won't be to his benefit.

    I missed that, thank you.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,022
    To unite two threads from earlier: the belief that the young are turning right, and my belief that pensionerism is the governing and unfortunate stance of the 2020's, specifically the infantilisation of adults by overpaternal elders. Of the three US right people that I follow on YouTube (Carson Wolf, Monsieur Dean and the ineffable and possibly insane Rudyard Lynch) one of them posted this tweet advocating an increase in the voting age.

    Is an increase in the voting age a real thing in American political debate or just the wish-list of an individual?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,051

    How can Trump stand for a "third" term in 2024 if he "won" a second term in 2020?

    My God: that's brilliant.

    In December of next year, the Supreme Court needs to overturn the 2020 Presidential Election, announce that Trump has been really President for the previous four years. And then say that -sadly- this means he's term limited.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,051
    Peck said:

    The obvious short on that chart is RFKJr, because if (as is likely) the star of at least one out of Biden and Trump begins to wane, it won't be to his benefit.

    Let's run down the reasons why he's an obvious short.

    1. If Biden stands for President again, there's no way that RFK will get the Democratic nomination. Ignoring the fact that his beliefs don't chime with any of the Democratic electorate, there won't be any debates. And the primary calendar does challengers no favours. It's South Carolina (where Biden hit it out the park in 2020) first and Nevada second.

    2. And if Biden does step down, then Harris and Newsom are in pole position.

    3. And even if lightning struck, and he beat out Harris and Newsom, then he'd still lose the General to Trump.

    There are rich backers wasting money supporting his price. Make yourself some money and short him.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,514
    edited August 2023
    I think it would be relatively easy for American liberal to deflate the Trump bubble, but they won't do it, because it would mean admitting they've got some things wrong over the last few years.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,022
    Andy_JS said:

    I think it would be relatively easy for American liberal to deflate...

    I think there's more than one. Did you miss out a word?

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    OK so I did this on the thread yesterday but a lot of the legal wonks seem to think Trump is going to get convicted in DC, for serious crimes, next year? Then I guess he appeals?

    Meanwhile 45% of Republicans say they wouldn't vote for him if he was convicted of a felony
    https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/reutersipsos-survey-despite-indictments-trump-leads-primary-field-desantis-loses-support I guess some of them would go back to the tribe, but nevertheless, it seems like a bad basis to run for election.

    Equally, as far as the primary polling goes, it looks like Trump is going to control most of the delegates at the GOP convention. So he gets to choose whether to run himself, or substitute someone else.

    Even if he somehow does beat Biden under these conditions, it's not clear that he can pardon himself.

    The move to make if he's not a complete and utter delusional moron would be to put up someone more popular as GOP nominee.

    Is he a complete and utter delusional moron? I don't think it's clear either way. It's worth thinking about who he might choose.
  • OK so I did this on the thread yesterday but a lot of the legal wonks seem to think Trump is going to get convicted in DC, for serious crimes, next year? Then I guess he appeals?

    Meanwhile 45% of Republicans say they wouldn't vote for him if he was convicted of a felony
    https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/reutersipsos-survey-despite-indictments-trump-leads-primary-field-desantis-loses-support I guess some of them would go back to the tribe, but nevertheless, it seems like a bad basis to run for election.

    Equally, as far as the primary polling goes, it looks like Trump is going to control most of the delegates at the GOP convention. So he gets to choose whether to run himself, or substitute someone else.

    Even if he somehow does beat Biden under these conditions, it's not clear that he can pardon himself.

    The move to make if he's not a complete and utter delusional moron would be to put up someone more popular as GOP nominee.

    Is he a complete and utter delusional moron? I don't think it's clear either way. It's worth thinking about who he might choose.

    Surely in this scenario, there is no-one more popular than Trump, else they would already be nominee. And if Trump were to make way for someone less popular than himself, there is no guarantee he can deliver his base, who, let's not forget, have just declined to vote for this substitute in order to vote for Trump himself.

    So who might Trump choose? Someone who has not attacked him personally during the primary campaign, and who has agreed to pardon him. Anyone but DeSantis, so far.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,955
    edited August 2023

    OK so I did this on the thread yesterday but a lot of the legal wonks seem to think Trump is going to get convicted in DC, for serious crimes, next year? Then I guess he appeals?

    Meanwhile 45% of Republicans say they wouldn't vote for him if he was convicted of a felony
    https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/reutersipsos-survey-despite-indictments-trump-leads-primary-field-desantis-loses-support I guess some of them would go back to the tribe, but nevertheless, it seems like a bad basis to run for election.

    Equally, as far as the primary polling goes, it looks like Trump is going to control most of the delegates at the GOP convention. So he gets to choose whether to run himself, or substitute someone else.

    Even if he somehow does beat Biden under these conditions, it's not clear that he can pardon himself.

    The move to make if he's not a complete and utter delusional moron would be to put up someone more popular as GOP nominee.

    Is he a complete and utter delusional moron? I don't think it's clear either way. It's worth thinking about who he might choose.

    Surely in this scenario, there is no-one more popular than Trump, else they would already be nominee. And if Trump were to make way for someone less popular than himself, there is no guarantee he can deliver his base, who, let's not forget, have just declined to vote for this substitute in order to vote for Trump himself.

    So who might Trump choose? Someone who has not attacked him personally during the primary campaign, and who has agreed to pardon him. Anyone but DeSantis, so far.
    Actually, DeSantis has already publicly stated he would pardon Trump. And been attacked by Trumpists for contemplating the possibility of Trump being found guilty.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,955
    Showing some Trump level bullshit ability.

    Ramaswamy won’t say whether he would have done what Pence did on Jan. 6

    https://www.politico.com/news/2023/08/04/ramaswamy-pence-jan-6-dodge-00109862
    Republican presidential candidate Vivek Ramaswamy would not say if he would have certified the election results like former Vice President Mike Pence did on Jan. 6, 2021, sidestepping repeated questions on Thursday.

    “I would have never let it get to that point,” Ramaswamy said in response to POLITICO’s questions. “I would have never put myself — or been part of an administration, if I was in a serious position of leadership — to ever have allowed us to have gotten to that doorstep.”..


    WTF does that mean ?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    edited August 2023
    Good morning all and I apologise for going off topic, which is not a reflection of Mike's interesting thread header.

    I've been wondering if Sadiq Khan might have lost Labour its majority?

    Mad ponderings? Perhaps. But the ulez rollout has been ill-conceived and chaotic. Is it possible that London might not deliver for Labour?
  • Heathener said:

    Good morning all and I apologise for going off topic, which is not a reflection of Mike's interesting thread header.

    I've been wondering if Sadiq Khan might have lost Labour its majority?

    Mad ponderings? Perhaps. But the ulez rollout has been ill-conceived and chaotic. Is it possible that London might not deliver for Labour?

    Chaotic is a push, even if you think Ulez expansion ill-conceived. What the Uxbridge win has done is excite CCHQ into going gangbusters on cars. Worse, from Labour's point of view, it has given the government hope.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    edited August 2023

    Heathener said:

    Good morning all and I apologise for going off topic, which is not a reflection of Mike's interesting thread header.

    I've been wondering if Sadiq Khan might have lost Labour its majority?

    Mad ponderings? Perhaps. But the ulez rollout has been ill-conceived and chaotic. Is it possible that London might not deliver for Labour?

    Chaotic is a push, even if you think Ulez expansion ill-conceived. What the Uxbridge win has done is excite CCHQ into going gangbusters on cars. Worse, from Labour's point of view, it has given the government hope.
    You may be right John but the sudden expansion of the scrappage scheme this week does seem chaotic. The rollout of ulez was never given sufficient time either.

    My Londoner brother, centre-left, is incandescent at the whole thing.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Nigelb said:

    Potential explanation for the unprecedented ocean warming recorded this year.

    https://www.science.org/content/article/changing-clouds-unforeseen-test-geoengineering-fueling-record-ocean-warmth
    ...Regulations imposed in 2020 by the United Nations’s International Maritime Organization (IMO) have cut ships’ sulfur pollution by more than 80% and improved air quality worldwide. The reduction has also lessened the effect of sulfate particles in seeding and brightening the distinctive low-lying, reflective clouds that follow in the wake of ships and help cool the planet. The 2020 IMO rule “is a big natural experiment,” says Duncan Watson-Parris, an atmospheric physicist at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography. “We’re changing the clouds.” *

    By dramatically reducing the number of ship tracks, the planet has warmed up faster, several new studies have found. That trend is magnified in the Atlantic, where maritime traffic is particularly dense. In the shipping corridors, the increased light represents a 50% boost to the warming effect of human carbon emissions. It’s as if the world suddenly lost the cooling effect from a fairly large volcanic eruption each year, says Michael Diamond, an atmospheric scientist at Florida State University.

    The natural experiment created by the IMO rules is providing a rare opportunity for climate scientists to study a geoengineering scheme in action—although it is one that is working in the wrong direction. Indeed, one such strategy to slow global warming, called marine cloud brightening, would see ships inject salt particles back into the air, to make clouds more reflective. In Diamond’s view, the dramatic decline in ship tracks is clear evidence that humanity could cool off the planet significantly by brightening the clouds. “It suggests pretty strongly that if you wanted to do it on purpose, you could,” he says...


    (*Actually it would be more accurate to say that we've stopped changing the clouds, by massively reducing SO2 emissions - in a very short space of time.)

    Pretty well refutes the arguments against trying some geoengineering of climate.

    I'm not sure "potential explanation" can then become a "refutation". Those two are antithetical.

    By your own admission, it's just a theory.

    xx
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,487
    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Potential explanation for the unprecedented ocean warming recorded this year.

    https://www.science.org/content/article/changing-clouds-unforeseen-test-geoengineering-fueling-record-ocean-warmth
    ...Regulations imposed in 2020 by the United Nations’s International Maritime Organization (IMO) have cut ships’ sulfur pollution by more than 80% and improved air quality worldwide. The reduction has also lessened the effect of sulfate particles in seeding and brightening the distinctive low-lying, reflective clouds that follow in the wake of ships and help cool the planet. The 2020 IMO rule “is a big natural experiment,” says Duncan Watson-Parris, an atmospheric physicist at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography. “We’re changing the clouds.” *

    By dramatically reducing the number of ship tracks, the planet has warmed up faster, several new studies have found. That trend is magnified in the Atlantic, where maritime traffic is particularly dense. In the shipping corridors, the increased light represents a 50% boost to the warming effect of human carbon emissions. It’s as if the world suddenly lost the cooling effect from a fairly large volcanic eruption each year, says Michael Diamond, an atmospheric scientist at Florida State University.

    The natural experiment created by the IMO rules is providing a rare opportunity for climate scientists to study a geoengineering scheme in action—although it is one that is working in the wrong direction. Indeed, one such strategy to slow global warming, called marine cloud brightening, would see ships inject salt particles back into the air, to make clouds more reflective. In Diamond’s view, the dramatic decline in ship tracks is clear evidence that humanity could cool off the planet significantly by brightening the clouds. “It suggests pretty strongly that if you wanted to do it on purpose, you could,” he says...


    (*Actually it would be more accurate to say that we've stopped changing the clouds, by massively reducing SO2 emissions - in a very short space of time.)

    Pretty well refutes the arguments against trying some geoengineering of climate.

    I'm not sure "potential explanation" can then become a "refutation". Those two are antithetical.

    By your own admission, it's just a theory.

    xx
    The theory does seem to make a lot of sense though.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,487
    So Putin decided it would be a wizard wheeze to stop the grain deal and push up food costs worldwide, with large negative effects for poorer people.

    Unfortunately, he did not seem to realise that would make large parts of the Black Sea open waters for Ukrainian action.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,585
    edited August 2023
    Heathener said:

    Good morning all and I apologise for going off topic, which is not a reflection of Mike's interesting thread header.

    I've been wondering if Sadiq Khan might have lost Labour its majority?

    Mad ponderings? Perhaps. But the ulez rollout has been ill-conceived and chaotic. Is it possible that London might not deliver for Labour?

    Doesn't look like it on yesterday's polls:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 46% (+1)
    CON: 26% (+1)
    LDEM: 10% (-)
    REF: 7% (-1)
    GRN: 5% (-1)

    via @techneUK, 03 - 02 Aug

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (-1)
    CON: 25% (-)
    LDEM: 11% (+1)
    REF: 7% (+1)
    GRN: 5% (-1)

    via @Omnisis, 03 - 04 Aug

    No movement at all after all the fuss of the last fortnight.

    The 90% of motorists who find out in August that they don't need to pay anything at all will just shrug. At the moment a lot think incorrectly that this is going to cost them.

    In other news:

    24% of New UK car registrations in July are either EV (16%) or PHEV (8%) so already meeting the 2030 criteria. Less than 8% are diesels of any form.

    https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrations/
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,585

    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Potential explanation for the unprecedented ocean warming recorded this year.

    https://www.science.org/content/article/changing-clouds-unforeseen-test-geoengineering-fueling-record-ocean-warmth
    ...Regulations imposed in 2020 by the United Nations’s International Maritime Organization (IMO) have cut ships’ sulfur pollution by more than 80% and improved air quality worldwide. The reduction has also lessened the effect of sulfate particles in seeding and brightening the distinctive low-lying, reflective clouds that follow in the wake of ships and help cool the planet. The 2020 IMO rule “is a big natural experiment,” says Duncan Watson-Parris, an atmospheric physicist at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography. “We’re changing the clouds.” *

    By dramatically reducing the number of ship tracks, the planet has warmed up faster, several new studies have found. That trend is magnified in the Atlantic, where maritime traffic is particularly dense. In the shipping corridors, the increased light represents a 50% boost to the warming effect of human carbon emissions. It’s as if the world suddenly lost the cooling effect from a fairly large volcanic eruption each year, says Michael Diamond, an atmospheric scientist at Florida State University.

    The natural experiment created by the IMO rules is providing a rare opportunity for climate scientists to study a geoengineering scheme in action—although it is one that is working in the wrong direction. Indeed, one such strategy to slow global warming, called marine cloud brightening, would see ships inject salt particles back into the air, to make clouds more reflective. In Diamond’s view, the dramatic decline in ship tracks is clear evidence that humanity could cool off the planet significantly by brightening the clouds. “It suggests pretty strongly that if you wanted to do it on purpose, you could,” he says...


    (*Actually it would be more accurate to say that we've stopped changing the clouds, by massively reducing SO2 emissions - in a very short space of time.)

    Pretty well refutes the arguments against trying some geoengineering of climate.

    I'm not sure "potential explanation" can then become a "refutation". Those two are antithetical.

    By your own admission, it's just a theory.

    xx
    The theory does seem to make a lot of sense though.
    Use of marine engines to seed clouds is an interesting thought, but with so many flags of convenience with virtually no maritime enforcement, how do we get it done, even as an experiment?
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    Nigelb said:

    Showing some Trump level bullshit ability.

    Ramaswamy won’t say whether he would have done what Pence did on Jan. 6

    https://www.politico.com/news/2023/08/04/ramaswamy-pence-jan-6-dodge-00109862
    Republican presidential candidate Vivek Ramaswamy would not say if he would have certified the election results like former Vice President Mike Pence did on Jan. 6, 2021, sidestepping repeated questions on Thursday.

    “I would have never let it get to that point,” Ramaswamy said in response to POLITICO’s questions. “I would have never put myself — or been part of an administration, if I was in a serious position of leadership — to ever have allowed us to have gotten to that doorstep.”..


    WTF does that mean ?

    And would he swear an oath to uphold the constitution? Presumably, he wouldn’t let it get to that point?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,487
    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Potential explanation for the unprecedented ocean warming recorded this year.

    https://www.science.org/content/article/changing-clouds-unforeseen-test-geoengineering-fueling-record-ocean-warmth
    ...Regulations imposed in 2020 by the United Nations’s International Maritime Organization (IMO) have cut ships’ sulfur pollution by more than 80% and improved air quality worldwide. The reduction has also lessened the effect of sulfate particles in seeding and brightening the distinctive low-lying, reflective clouds that follow in the wake of ships and help cool the planet. The 2020 IMO rule “is a big natural experiment,” says Duncan Watson-Parris, an atmospheric physicist at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography. “We’re changing the clouds.” *

    By dramatically reducing the number of ship tracks, the planet has warmed up faster, several new studies have found. That trend is magnified in the Atlantic, where maritime traffic is particularly dense. In the shipping corridors, the increased light represents a 50% boost to the warming effect of human carbon emissions. It’s as if the world suddenly lost the cooling effect from a fairly large volcanic eruption each year, says Michael Diamond, an atmospheric scientist at Florida State University.

    The natural experiment created by the IMO rules is providing a rare opportunity for climate scientists to study a geoengineering scheme in action—although it is one that is working in the wrong direction. Indeed, one such strategy to slow global warming, called marine cloud brightening, would see ships inject salt particles back into the air, to make clouds more reflective. In Diamond’s view, the dramatic decline in ship tracks is clear evidence that humanity could cool off the planet significantly by brightening the clouds. “It suggests pretty strongly that if you wanted to do it on purpose, you could,” he says...


    (*Actually it would be more accurate to say that we've stopped changing the clouds, by massively reducing SO2 emissions - in a very short space of time.)

    Pretty well refutes the arguments against trying some geoengineering of climate.

    I'm not sure "potential explanation" can then become a "refutation". Those two are antithetical.

    By your own admission, it's just a theory.

    xx
    The theory does seem to make a lot of sense though.
    Use of marine engines to seed clouds is an interesting thought, but with so many flags of convenience with virtually no maritime enforcement, how do we get it done, even as an experiment?
    We should ask the Russians, who have a long experience of trying to be cloudbusters:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pllRW9wETzw

    Looking into this, I just found the following wiki page on 'ship tracks' : clouds made by the exhaust of ships. I had no idea this happened.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_tracks

    Also, an interesting article on the issue:
    https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-how-low-sulphur-shipping-rules-are-affecting-global-warming/
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Good morning all and I apologise for going off topic, which is not a reflection of Mike's interesting thread header.

    I've been wondering if Sadiq Khan might have lost Labour its majority?

    Mad ponderings? Perhaps. But the ulez rollout has been ill-conceived and chaotic. Is it possible that London might not deliver for Labour?

    Doesn't look like it on yesterday's polls:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 46% (+1)
    CON: 26% (+1)
    LDEM: 10% (-)
    REF: 7% (-1)
    GRN: 5% (-1)

    via @techneUK, 03 - 02 Aug

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (-1)
    CON: 25% (-)
    LDEM: 11% (+1)
    REF: 7% (+1)
    GRN: 5% (-1)

    via @Omnisis, 03 - 04 Aug

    No movement at all after all the fuss of the last fortnight.

    The 90% of motorists who find out in August that they don't need to pay anything at all will just shrug. At the moment a lot think incorrectly that this is going to cost them.

    In other news:

    24% of New UK car registrations in July are either EV (16%) or PHEV (8%) so already meeting the 2030 criteria. Less than 8% are diesels of any form.

    https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrations/
    I think you're right.

    Hand on heart, it was a moment of panic on my part. I guess by this time next year ulez will have been forgotten about.

    Whilst I don't really think anti-trans or anti-migrant reactionary politics cuts through to most mainstream voters, a perceived attack on motorists just might? We are mostly all into the idea that we need to be helping the planet but a lot of people will baulk at the idea that their cars might be under attack.

    3/4 of households own a car. If Sunak and his reactionary right can frame the election around Labour attacking the motorist, they might gain some traction with it?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    p.s. but Labour's greatest strength is probably what some on here see as its weakness: Keir Starmer's centrism.

    I have tory friends who are now shrugging their shoulders at Starmer becoming PM. They're not worried.

    That's a real turnaround from the Corbyn days.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,585
    Heathener said:

    p.s. but Labour's greatest strength is probably what some on here see as its weakness: Keir Starmer's centrism.

    I have tory friends who are now shrugging their shoulders at Starmer becoming PM. They're not worried.

    That's a real turnaround from the Corbyn days.

    It is. Nothing to fear from Labour, but not much to hope for either from a new regime frightened by its own shadow.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,345
    Heathener said:

    p.s. but Labour's greatest strength is probably what some on here see as its weakness: Keir Starmer's centrism.

    I have tory friends who are now shrugging their shoulders at Starmer becoming PM. They're not worried.

    That's a real turnaround from the Corbyn days.

    Starmer will lead Britain forward with a bold progressive agenda. Well, maybe not bold. Bold-ish, or something. The key is, it’s not insane. It’s not like he wants to build a tunnel in a munitions dump. Or make 100 giant chessboards.

    With apologies to Steve Buscemi.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    So Putin decided it would be a wizard wheeze to stop the grain deal and push up food costs worldwide, with large negative effects for poorer people.

    Unfortunately, he did not seem to realise that would make large parts of the Black Sea open waters for Ukrainian action.

    Slowly but surely the Russians are losing.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,273
    I think Khan should have delayed the extension of Ulez by 6 months but the scheme does need to come in .

    The problem at the moment is people falling for the Tory scare mongering and being too lazy to just find out if they’re effected .

    Of course the Tories who have nothing to offer will jump on anything . It might make things a little difficult for Labour in certain target seats. I don’t see how though if you’re a Labour supporter you’re going to suddenly say I’ll vote Tory over this .



  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    ydoethur said:

    I don’t actually think Starmer is a centrist from conviction. He seems to have actually quite left wing instincts, more so than say, Wilson or Callaghan.

    What he does have is pragmatism. He’s willing to compromise with the electorate to win power.

    Blair and Brown were willing to do that too - the snag was they then never tried to make meaningful reforms with the opportunity they had. They spent so long rebranding and not frightening the horses that Brown in particular wasn’t willing to make radical changes. Meanwhile Blair, frustrated, took it out in misguided foreign policy ventures.

    Unfortunately even if Starmer should prove not to have their timidity, it seems unlikely he will have a similar opportunity.

    A lot will depend on how the Tories respond to defeat. I’ve a feeling that the lesson they’ll take from it is that they should have supported Brexit more enthusiastically.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,345

    So Putin decided it would be a wizard wheeze to stop the grain deal and push up food costs worldwide, with large negative effects for poorer people.

    Unfortunately, he did not seem to realise that would make large parts of the Black Sea open waters for Ukrainian action.

    Slowly but surely the Russians are losing.
    Actually, they have already lost. Every single goal of their invasion has been thwarted. They have not got a secure land crossing to Crimea, they haven’t forced regime change in Kyiv, they have strengthened NATO and lengthened its border with Russia and they have limited control of part of Ukraine.

    On the way trashing their economy, isolating themselves diplomatically, killing tens of thousands of young men, stripping their armed forces of equipment and undermining the prestige of the government.

    The catch is not that they haven’t lost, but that the Ukrainians haven’t won. At least not yet. They may do but even with Russia’s difficulties progress is slow and painful for them. The question may become can their manpower reserves outlast the Russian economy?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,345

    ydoethur said:

    I don’t actually think Starmer is a centrist from conviction. He seems to have actually quite left wing instincts, more so than say, Wilson or Callaghan.

    What he does have is pragmatism. He’s willing to compromise with the electorate to win power.

    Blair and Brown were willing to do that too - the snag was they then never tried to make meaningful reforms with the opportunity they had. They spent so long rebranding and not frightening the horses that Brown in particular wasn’t willing to make radical changes. Meanwhile Blair, frustrated, took it out in misguided foreign policy ventures.

    Unfortunately even if Starmer should prove not to have their timidity, it seems unlikely he will have a similar opportunity.

    A lot will depend on how the Tories respond to defeat. I’ve a feeling that the lesson they’ll take from it is that they should have supported Brexit more enthusiastically.
    Yes. But then, they effectively did that in 1997 too and it didn’t lead Blair to be more daring. Unlike Thatcher, who doubled down when she saw Foot’s well-meaning but totally ineffectual leadership destroying Labour.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,142
    Why Trump night win, part 735

    “Amidst an out-of-control mob at Union Square NYC, a console giveaway attracts crowds, and the NYPD struggles to gain control”

    Quite a nasty riot in NYC. The racial make up is hard to ignore

    https://twitter.com/insanerealitys/status/1687699213553979392?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    If Trump wasn’t facing these prosecutions, I’d have him as favourite right now
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,099
    Switzerland's group must have been dire
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,142

    So Putin decided it would be a wizard wheeze to stop the grain deal and push up food costs worldwide, with large negative effects for poorer people.

    Unfortunately, he did not seem to realise that would make large parts of the Black Sea open waters for Ukrainian action.

    Slowly but surely the Russians are losing.
    Having just spent two weeks in Ukraine I have to say it certainly does not feel like that in Ukraine. At best it feels like a very tense stalemate

    That’s at best
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,487
    ydoethur said:

    So Putin decided it would be a wizard wheeze to stop the grain deal and push up food costs worldwide, with large negative effects for poorer people.

    Unfortunately, he did not seem to realise that would make large parts of the Black Sea open waters for Ukrainian action.

    Slowly but surely the Russians are losing.
    Actually, they have already lost. Every single goal of their invasion has been thwarted. They have not got a secure land crossing to Crimea, they haven’t forced regime change in Kyiv, they have strengthened NATO and lengthened its border with Russia and they have limited control of part of Ukraine.

    On the way trashing their economy, isolating themselves diplomatically, killing tens of thousands of young men, stripping their armed forces of equipment and undermining the prestige of the government.

    The catch is not that they haven’t lost, but that the Ukrainians haven’t won. At least not yet. They may do but even with Russia’s difficulties progress is slow and painful for them. The question may become can their manpower reserves outlast the Russian economy?
    I don't think there's a scenario that leaves Russia stronger economically, militarily or reputationally than if they had not launched this invasion. It's been a disaster for them on so many levels. Even if they magically gain all of Ukraine - say, under a Trump presidency - they'll still have suffered massively, and have lost a greivous amount of financial power and reputation.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,142
    edited August 2023

    ydoethur said:

    So Putin decided it would be a wizard wheeze to stop the grain deal and push up food costs worldwide, with large negative effects for poorer people.

    Unfortunately, he did not seem to realise that would make large parts of the Black Sea open waters for Ukrainian action.

    Slowly but surely the Russians are losing.
    Actually, they have already lost. Every single goal of their invasion has been thwarted. They have not got a secure land crossing to Crimea, they haven’t forced regime change in Kyiv, they have strengthened NATO and lengthened its border with Russia and they have limited control of part of Ukraine.

    On the way trashing their economy, isolating themselves diplomatically, killing tens of thousands of young men, stripping their armed forces of equipment and undermining the prestige of the government.

    The catch is not that they haven’t lost, but that the Ukrainians haven’t won. At least not yet. They may do but even with Russia’s difficulties progress is slow and painful for them. The question may become can their manpower reserves outlast the Russian economy?
    I don't think there's a scenario that leaves Russia stronger economically, militarily or reputationally than if they had not launched this invasion. It's been a disaster for them on so many levels. Even if they magically gain all of Ukraine - say, under a Trump presidency - they'll still have suffered massively, and have lost a greivous amount of financial power and reputation.
    Long term Russia is badly damaged

    But in the short-medium term Russia can *win* this war: by holding on to what it has gained, resisting further Ukrainian attacks, then wait for Ukraine to run out of men, and for the west to tire of supporting Ukraine

    Polls in America are already ominous for the Ukes
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,187
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    YouGov, Germany

    CDU/CSU 27% (nc)
    AfD 23% (+2)
    SPD 17% (-1)
    Greens 14% (nc)
    Left 6% (nc)
    FDP 5% (-1)
    Others 8% (+1)

    https://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/

    Looks like Germany is heading to a 2 main party system of centre right v far right. If Merz did a deal with AfD he would have a comfortable majority at the next election on that poll, otherwise he would need to do another grand coalition with the governing SPD or a deal with the Greens to keep them out of power
    Germany is unlikely to be heading to any kind of 2 main party system. You could say the era of CDU and SPD being the 2 main parties is over.

    Merz wouldn't have a comfortable majority with the AfD on that poll. Firstly you are forgetting the CSU who poll around 6%. Secondly there is no chance the CDU will have any kind of arrangement with the AfD in this or the next parliament. CDU rules prohibit it, the majority of the party is opposed to it, and they would lose a lot of voters if they started moving in that direction. Merz is no doubt a shit, but the CDU are not about to have any kind of arrangement with the AfD.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,585
    ydoethur said:

    So Putin decided it would be a wizard wheeze to stop the grain deal and push up food costs worldwide, with large negative effects for poorer people.

    Unfortunately, he did not seem to realise that would make large parts of the Black Sea open waters for Ukrainian action.

    Slowly but surely the Russians are losing.
    Actually, they have already lost. Every single goal of their invasion has been thwarted. They have not got a secure land crossing to Crimea, they haven’t forced regime change in Kyiv, they have strengthened NATO and lengthened its border with Russia and they have limited control of part of Ukraine.

    On the way trashing their economy, isolating themselves diplomatically, killing tens of thousands of young men, stripping their armed forces of equipment and undermining the prestige of the government.

    The catch is not that they haven’t lost, but that the Ukrainians haven’t won. At least not yet. They may do but even with Russia’s difficulties progress is slow and painful for them. The question may become can their manpower reserves outlast the Russian economy?
    Yes they do. We know that countries that are motivated to continue the fight can bear huge losses. Ukraine has a similar population to the UK in WW1. It sustained massive losses in WW2, higher than Russia in terms of % of population.

    In an existential war that motivation is likely to be sustained. Fight or die.
  • Andy_JS said:

    I think it would be relatively easy for American liberal to deflate the Trump bubble, but they won't do it, because it would mean admitting they've got some things wrong over the last few years.

    Biden should pardon Trump. That leaves Trump with nothing to run on.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,345

    Andy_JS said:

    I think it would be relatively easy for American liberal to deflate the Trump bubble, but they won't do it, because it would mean admitting they've got some things wrong over the last few years.

    Biden should pardon Trump. That leaves Trump with nothing to run on.

    He might not accept, bearing in mind in America accepting a pardon means accepting guilt.
  • ydoethur said:

    So Putin decided it would be a wizard wheeze to stop the grain deal and push up food costs worldwide, with large negative effects for poorer people.

    Unfortunately, he did not seem to realise that would make large parts of the Black Sea open waters for Ukrainian action.

    Slowly but surely the Russians are losing.
    Actually, they have already lost. Every single goal of their invasion has been thwarted. They have not got a secure land crossing to Crimea, they haven’t forced regime change in Kyiv, they have strengthened NATO and lengthened its border with Russia and they have limited control of part of Ukraine.

    On the way trashing their economy, isolating themselves diplomatically, killing tens of thousands of young men, stripping their armed forces of equipment and undermining the prestige of the government.

    The catch is not that they haven’t lost, but that the Ukrainians haven’t won. At least not yet. They may do but even with Russia’s difficulties progress is slow and painful for them. The question may become can their manpower reserves outlast the Russian economy?
    I don't think there's a scenario that leaves Russia stronger economically, militarily or reputationally than if they had not launched this invasion. It's been a disaster for them on so many levels. Even if they magically gain all of Ukraine - say, under a Trump presidency - they'll still have suffered massively, and have lost a greivous amount of financial power and reputation.
    China wins in just about every scenario with the exception of a definitive Ukrainian victory. It genuinely puzzles me that the US pro-Putin, pro-Trump right cannot see that.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,585
    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    YouGov, Germany

    CDU/CSU 27% (nc)
    AfD 23% (+2)
    SPD 17% (-1)
    Greens 14% (nc)
    Left 6% (nc)
    FDP 5% (-1)
    Others 8% (+1)

    https://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/

    Looks like Germany is heading to a 2 main party system of centre right v far right. If Merz did a deal with AfD he would have a comfortable majority at the next election on that poll, otherwise he would need to do another grand coalition with the governing SPD or a deal with the Greens to keep them out of power
    Germany is unlikely to be heading to any kind of 2 main party system. You could say the era of CDU and SPD being the 2 main parties is over.

    Merz wouldn't have a comfortable majority with the AfD on that poll. Firstly you are forgetting the CSU who poll around 6%. Secondly there is no chance the CDU will have any kind of arrangement with the AfD in this or the next parliament. CDU rules prohibit it, the majority of the party is opposed to it, and they would lose a lot of voters if they started moving in that direction. Merz is no doubt a shit, but the CDU are not about to have any kind of arrangement with the AfD.

    What seems to be driving up AFD support recently is its pro-Putin position on Ukraine, wanting to end support for Ukraine, and to end sanctions on Russia.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AfD_pro-Russia_movement
  • nico679 said:

    I think Khan should have delayed the extension of Ulez by 6 months but the scheme does need to come in .

    The problem at the moment is people falling for the Tory scare mongering and being too lazy to just find out if they’re effected .

    Of course the Tories who have nothing to offer will jump on anything . It might make things a little difficult for Labour in certain target seats. I don’t see how though if you’re a Labour supporter you’re going to suddenly say I’ll vote Tory over this .

    If Khan had delayed ULEZ roll-out it would have been a live re-election issue. The political problem was not the August date, it was the timing of the Uxbridge vote.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,142
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    So Putin decided it would be a wizard wheeze to stop the grain deal and push up food costs worldwide, with large negative effects for poorer people.

    Unfortunately, he did not seem to realise that would make large parts of the Black Sea open waters for Ukrainian action.

    Slowly but surely the Russians are losing.
    Actually, they have already lost. Every single goal of their invasion has been thwarted. They have not got a secure land crossing to Crimea, they haven’t forced regime change in Kyiv, they have strengthened NATO and lengthened its border with Russia and they have limited control of part of Ukraine.

    On the way trashing their economy, isolating themselves diplomatically, killing tens of thousands of young men, stripping their armed forces of equipment and undermining the prestige of the government.

    The catch is not that they haven’t lost, but that the Ukrainians haven’t won. At least not yet. They may do but even with Russia’s difficulties progress is slow and painful for them. The question may become can their manpower reserves outlast the Russian economy?
    Yes they do. We know that countries that are motivated to continue the fight can bear huge losses. Ukraine has a similar population to the UK in WW1. It sustained massive losses in WW2, higher than Russia in terms of % of population.

    In an existential war that motivation is likely to be sustained. Fight or die.
    It must be nice for the Ukrainians to have you cheering them on, insisting they can afford to lose 1 million men (like the UK in WW1)

    All from your pulpit in…. Leicester
  • Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Good morning all and I apologise for going off topic, which is not a reflection of Mike's interesting thread header.

    I've been wondering if Sadiq Khan might have lost Labour its majority?

    Mad ponderings? Perhaps. But the ulez rollout has been ill-conceived and chaotic. Is it possible that London might not deliver for Labour?

    Doesn't look like it on yesterday's polls:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 46% (+1)
    CON: 26% (+1)
    LDEM: 10% (-)
    REF: 7% (-1)
    GRN: 5% (-1)

    via @techneUK, 03 - 02 Aug

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (-1)
    CON: 25% (-)
    LDEM: 11% (+1)
    REF: 7% (+1)
    GRN: 5% (-1)

    via @Omnisis, 03 - 04 Aug

    No movement at all after all the fuss of the last fortnight.

    The 90% of motorists who find out in August that they don't need to pay anything at all will just shrug. At the moment a lot think incorrectly that this is going to cost them.

    In other news:

    24% of New UK car registrations in July are either EV (16%) or PHEV (8%) so already meeting the 2030 criteria. Less than 8% are diesels of any form.

    https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrations/

    Labour’s lead was also up two points in the latest YouGov published yesterday.

    Nothing is really happening poll-wise currently. But when was the last time the Tories hit 30 in any poll?

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,142

    Andy_JS said:

    I think it would be relatively easy for American liberal to deflate the Trump bubble, but they won't do it, because it would mean admitting they've got some things wrong over the last few years.

    Biden should pardon Trump. That leaves Trump with nothing to run on.

    “Nothing to run on”

    You what? American life expectancy is collapsing. Many of its cities are in steep decline. Addiction and overdose ravage the country. Migration is clearly out of control. Crime is resurgent and race/culture wars are everywhere

    Does Trump have any real solutions to any of this? Almost certainly not. But the idea he doesn’t have any material to work with is palpable nonsense
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,345

    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Good morning all and I apologise for going off topic, which is not a reflection of Mike's interesting thread header.

    I've been wondering if Sadiq Khan might have lost Labour its majority?

    Mad ponderings? Perhaps. But the ulez rollout has been ill-conceived and chaotic. Is it possible that London might not deliver for Labour?

    Doesn't look like it on yesterday's polls:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 46% (+1)
    CON: 26% (+1)
    LDEM: 10% (-)
    REF: 7% (-1)
    GRN: 5% (-1)

    via @techneUK, 03 - 02 Aug

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (-1)
    CON: 25% (-)
    LDEM: 11% (+1)
    REF: 7% (+1)
    GRN: 5% (-1)

    via @Omnisis, 03 - 04 Aug

    No movement at all after all the fuss of the last fortnight.

    The 90% of motorists who find out in August that they don't need to pay anything at all will just shrug. At the moment a lot think incorrectly that this is going to cost them.

    In other news:

    24% of New UK car registrations in July are either EV (16%) or PHEV (8%) so already meeting the 2030 criteria. Less than 8% are diesels of any form.

    https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrations/

    Labour’s lead was also up two points in the latest YouGov published yesterday.

    Nothing is really happening poll-wise currently. But when was the last time the Tories hit 30 in any poll?

    When Dan Kawczynski played high striker at Shrewsbury Abbey fete.

    Oh sorry, not that sort of Pole.
  • nico679 said:

    I think Khan should have delayed the extension of Ulez by 6 months but the scheme does need to come in .

    The problem at the moment is people falling for the Tory scare mongering and being too lazy to just find out if they’re effected .

    Of course the Tories who have nothing to offer will jump on anything . It might make things a little difficult for Labour in certain target seats. I don’t see how though if you’re a Labour supporter you’re going to suddenly say I’ll vote Tory over this .



    He'd have been a fool to delay ULEZ six months as that would've taken him to the eve of the Mayoral election. He's much better off getting the pain over with now.
  • Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    So Putin decided it would be a wizard wheeze to stop the grain deal and push up food costs worldwide, with large negative effects for poorer people.

    Unfortunately, he did not seem to realise that would make large parts of the Black Sea open waters for Ukrainian action.

    Slowly but surely the Russians are losing.
    Actually, they have already lost. Every single goal of their invasion has been thwarted. They have not got a secure land crossing to Crimea, they haven’t forced regime change in Kyiv, they have strengthened NATO and lengthened its border with Russia and they have limited control of part of Ukraine.

    On the way trashing their economy, isolating themselves diplomatically, killing tens of thousands of young men, stripping their armed forces of equipment and undermining the prestige of the government.

    The catch is not that they haven’t lost, but that the Ukrainians haven’t won. At least not yet. They may do but even with Russia’s difficulties progress is slow and painful for them. The question may become can their manpower reserves outlast the Russian economy?
    Yes they do. We know that countries that are motivated to continue the fight can bear huge losses. Ukraine has a similar population to the UK in WW1. It sustained massive losses in WW2, higher than Russia in terms of % of population.

    In an existential war that motivation is likely to be sustained. Fight or die.
    It must be nice for the Ukrainians to have you cheering them on, insisting they can afford to lose 1 million men (like the UK in WW1)

    All from your pulpit in…. Leicester
    They can’t afford to but they’ll do it if they have to. They’re not going to surrender. And Ukraine is far too big for Russia to control without widespread local acquiesence.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,761
    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    p.s. but Labour's greatest strength is probably what some on here see as its weakness: Keir Starmer's centrism.

    I have tory friends who are now shrugging their shoulders at Starmer becoming PM. They're not worried.

    That's a real turnaround from the Corbyn days.

    Starmer will lead Britain forward with a bold progressive agenda. Well, maybe not bold. Bold-ish, or something. The key is, it’s not insane. It’s not like he wants to build a tunnel in a munitions dump. Or make 100 giant chessboards.

    With apologies to Steve Buscemi.
    Best. Political. Meme. Ever.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,955
    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Potential explanation for the unprecedented ocean warming recorded this year.

    https://www.science.org/content/article/changing-clouds-unforeseen-test-geoengineering-fueling-record-ocean-warmth
    ...Regulations imposed in 2020 by the United Nations’s International Maritime Organization (IMO) have cut ships’ sulfur pollution by more than 80% and improved air quality worldwide. The reduction has also lessened the effect of sulfate particles in seeding and brightening the distinctive low-lying, reflective clouds that follow in the wake of ships and help cool the planet. The 2020 IMO rule “is a big natural experiment,” says Duncan Watson-Parris, an atmospheric physicist at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography. “We’re changing the clouds.” *

    By dramatically reducing the number of ship tracks, the planet has warmed up faster, several new studies have found. That trend is magnified in the Atlantic, where maritime traffic is particularly dense. In the shipping corridors, the increased light represents a 50% boost to the warming effect of human carbon emissions. It’s as if the world suddenly lost the cooling effect from a fairly large volcanic eruption each year, says Michael Diamond, an atmospheric scientist at Florida State University.

    The natural experiment created by the IMO rules is providing a rare opportunity for climate scientists to study a geoengineering scheme in action—although it is one that is working in the wrong direction. Indeed, one such strategy to slow global warming, called marine cloud brightening, would see ships inject salt particles back into the air, to make clouds more reflective. In Diamond’s view, the dramatic decline in ship tracks is clear evidence that humanity could cool off the planet significantly by brightening the clouds. “It suggests pretty strongly that if you wanted to do it on purpose, you could,” he says...


    (*Actually it would be more accurate to say that we've stopped changing the clouds, by massively reducing SO2 emissions - in a very short space of time.)

    Pretty well refutes the arguments against trying some geoengineering of climate.

    I'm not sure "potential explanation" can then become a "refutation". Those two are antithetical.

    By your own admission, it's just a theory.

    xx
    You're not analysing it correctly.

    Science is always provisional - but it's a pretty completing theory.
    The cost of seeding the atmosphere with salt water droplets (in place of SO2) is pretty low, and the associated risks, on the basis of this evidence, even lower.

    The cost benefit of the experiment is therefore massively in favour of trying it out.
    That is indeed a refutation of the arguments against trying. The proof will come - rapidly - from the results uf the experiment.
  • Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I think it would be relatively easy for American liberal to deflate the Trump bubble, but they won't do it, because it would mean admitting they've got some things wrong over the last few years.

    Biden should pardon Trump. That leaves Trump with nothing to run on.

    “Nothing to run on”

    You what? American life expectancy is collapsing. Many of its cities are in steep decline. Addiction and overdose ravage the country. Migration is clearly out of control. Crime is resurgent and race/culture wars are everywhere

    Does Trump have any real solutions to any of this? Almost certainly not. But the idea he doesn’t have any material to work with is palpable nonsense
    Trump’s 2024 pitch is victimhood and the deep state. He’s talking about nothing else. A generic Republican can convincingly run on all that you talk about.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,955
    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Potential explanation for the unprecedented ocean warming recorded this year.

    https://www.science.org/content/article/changing-clouds-unforeseen-test-geoengineering-fueling-record-ocean-warmth
    ...Regulations imposed in 2020 by the United Nations’s International Maritime Organization (IMO) have cut ships’ sulfur pollution by more than 80% and improved air quality worldwide. The reduction has also lessened the effect of sulfate particles in seeding and brightening the distinctive low-lying, reflective clouds that follow in the wake of ships and help cool the planet. The 2020 IMO rule “is a big natural experiment,” says Duncan Watson-Parris, an atmospheric physicist at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography. “We’re changing the clouds.” *

    By dramatically reducing the number of ship tracks, the planet has warmed up faster, several new studies have found. That trend is magnified in the Atlantic, where maritime traffic is particularly dense. In the shipping corridors, the increased light represents a 50% boost to the warming effect of human carbon emissions. It’s as if the world suddenly lost the cooling effect from a fairly large volcanic eruption each year, says Michael Diamond, an atmospheric scientist at Florida State University.

    The natural experiment created by the IMO rules is providing a rare opportunity for climate scientists to study a geoengineering scheme in action—although it is one that is working in the wrong direction. Indeed, one such strategy to slow global warming, called marine cloud brightening, would see ships inject salt particles back into the air, to make clouds more reflective. In Diamond’s view, the dramatic decline in ship tracks is clear evidence that humanity could cool off the planet significantly by brightening the clouds. “It suggests pretty strongly that if you wanted to do it on purpose, you could,” he says...


    (*Actually it would be more accurate to say that we've stopped changing the clouds, by massively reducing SO2 emissions - in a very short space of time.)

    Pretty well refutes the arguments against trying some geoengineering of climate.

    I'm not sure "potential explanation" can then become a "refutation". Those two are antithetical.

    By your own admission, it's just a theory.

    xx
    The theory does seem to make a lot of sense though.
    Use of marine engines to seed clouds is an interesting thought, but with so many flags of convenience with virtually no maritime enforcement, how do we get it done, even as an experiment?
    How did we enforce the SO2 ban ?
    (Massively effective within a couple of years.)
    Incentives.

    In this case they could be positive incentives.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,142

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I think it would be relatively easy for American liberal to deflate the Trump bubble, but they won't do it, because it would mean admitting they've got some things wrong over the last few years.

    Biden should pardon Trump. That leaves Trump with nothing to run on.

    “Nothing to run on”

    You what? American life expectancy is collapsing. Many of its cities are in steep decline. Addiction and overdose ravage the country. Migration is clearly out of control. Crime is resurgent and race/culture wars are everywhere

    Does Trump have any real solutions to any of this? Almost certainly not. But the idea he doesn’t have any material to work with is palpable nonsense
    Trump’s 2024 pitch is victimhood and the deep state. He’s talking about nothing else. A generic Republican can convincingly run on all that you talk about.

    And so can Trump. He can run on that. And he has a large personal folllowing as well. A motivated base. So what’s your point?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,761
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    So Putin decided it would be a wizard wheeze to stop the grain deal and push up food costs worldwide, with large negative effects for poorer people.

    Unfortunately, he did not seem to realise that would make large parts of the Black Sea open waters for Ukrainian action.

    Slowly but surely the Russians are losing.
    Actually, they have already lost. Every single goal of their invasion has been thwarted. They have not got a secure land crossing to Crimea, they haven’t forced regime change in Kyiv, they have strengthened NATO and lengthened its border with Russia and they have limited control of part of Ukraine.

    On the way trashing their economy, isolating themselves diplomatically, killing tens of thousands of young men, stripping their armed forces of equipment and undermining the prestige of the government.

    The catch is not that they haven’t lost, but that the Ukrainians haven’t won. At least not yet. They may do but even with Russia’s difficulties progress is slow and painful for them. The question may become can their manpower reserves outlast the Russian economy?
    Yes they do. We know that countries that are motivated to continue the fight can bear huge losses. Ukraine has a similar population to the UK in WW1. It sustained massive losses in WW2, higher than Russia in terms of % of population.

    In an existential war that motivation is likely to be sustained. Fight or die.
    But like Russia in WW1 (and very nearly France) large countries can suffer a war weariness that is simply unsustainable.

    The key to this is, in my view, casualty ratios. When Russia was attacking the Ukrainians were achieving something like 4 or 5 to 1 in their favour. The ratio, as they struggle through the minefields, is now thought to be nearer 1:1. I am not sure Ukraine can sustain that indefinitely, probably not for more than another year. They need to change the means of engagement again. That means getting through the minefields and into open combat where their superior armour makes more of a difference.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,103
    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Good morning all and I apologise for going off topic, which is not a reflection of Mike's interesting thread header.

    I've been wondering if Sadiq Khan might have lost Labour its majority?

    Mad ponderings? Perhaps. But the ulez rollout has been ill-conceived and chaotic. Is it possible that London might not deliver for Labour?

    Chaotic is a push, even if you think Ulez expansion ill-conceived. What the Uxbridge win has done is excite CCHQ into going gangbusters on cars. Worse, from Labour's point of view, it has given the government hope.
    You may be right John but the sudden expansion of the scrappage scheme this week does seem chaotic. The rollout of ulez was never given sufficient time either.

    My Londoner brother, centre-left, is incandescent at the whole thing.
    But it’s only 10% of car drivers. Intensify the beatings until moral improves.

    ULEZ is politically poor implementation of a worthy goal. Because aside from screwing over a small number of people, everyone with an ICE thinks they are next.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,955
    ydoethur said:

    I don’t actually think Starmer is a centrist from conviction. He seems to have actually quite left wing instincts, more so than say, Wilson or Callaghan.

    What he does have is pragmatism. He’s willing to compromise with the electorate to win power.

    Blair and Brown were willing to do that too - the snag was they then never tried to make meaningful reforms with the opportunity they had. They spent so long rebranding and not frightening the horses that Brown in particular wasn’t willing to make radical changes. Meanwhile Blair, frustrated, took it out in misguided foreign policy ventures.

    Unfortunately even if Starmer should prove not to have their timidity, it seems unlikely he will have a similar opportunity.

    I think that's an excellent analysis.
    Though whether they even had the competence to carry through effective reform is also an open question.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I think it would be relatively easy for American liberal to deflate the Trump bubble, but they won't do it, because it would mean admitting they've got some things wrong over the last few years.

    Biden should pardon Trump. That leaves Trump with nothing to run on.

    “Nothing to run on”

    You what? American life expectancy is collapsing. Many of its cities are in steep decline. Addiction and overdose ravage the country. Migration is clearly out of control. Crime is resurgent and race/culture wars are everywhere

    Does Trump have any real solutions to any of this? Almost certainly not. But the idea he doesn’t have any material to work with is palpable nonsense
    Trump’s 2024 pitch is victimhood and the deep state. He’s talking about nothing else. A generic Republican can convincingly run on all that you talk about.

    And so can Trump. He can run on that. And he has a large personal folllowing as well. A motivated base. So what’s your point?
    That he is not running on any of those things currently. His base is motivated by his victimhood and calls to defeat the deep state, not to turn around falling life expectancy rates or tackle the opioids crisis.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,142

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    So Putin decided it would be a wizard wheeze to stop the grain deal and push up food costs worldwide, with large negative effects for poorer people.

    Unfortunately, he did not seem to realise that would make large parts of the Black Sea open waters for Ukrainian action.

    Slowly but surely the Russians are losing.
    Actually, they have already lost. Every single goal of their invasion has been thwarted. They have not got a secure land crossing to Crimea, they haven’t forced regime change in Kyiv, they have strengthened NATO and lengthened its border with Russia and they have limited control of part of Ukraine.

    On the way trashing their economy, isolating themselves diplomatically, killing tens of thousands of young men, stripping their armed forces of equipment and undermining the prestige of the government.

    The catch is not that they haven’t lost, but that the Ukrainians haven’t won. At least not yet. They may do but even with Russia’s difficulties progress is slow and painful for them. The question may become can their manpower reserves outlast the Russian economy?
    Yes they do. We know that countries that are motivated to continue the fight can bear huge losses. Ukraine has a similar population to the UK in WW1. It sustained massive losses in WW2, higher than Russia in terms of % of population.

    In an existential war that motivation is likely to be sustained. Fight or die.
    It must be nice for the Ukrainians to have you cheering them on, insisting they can afford to lose 1 million men (like the UK in WW1)

    All from your pulpit in…. Leicester
    The Ukrainians can see what happens when Russia gains territory. It's not just a change in the top bods running the country. The eastern areas post 2014 became an absolute cesspit, with the 'authorities' doing lots of nasty things. In the areas the Russians took over since last year, hundreds of thousands of kids have been kidnapped and taken into Russia; thousands of Ukrainian civilians have been killed, property stolen wholesale, and Ukrainians treated as third-class citizens.

    They know that, and worse, is what lies in wait for any new territory gained by the Russians. It is a war of existence for the Ukrainians.

    Personally, I will continue to cheer the Ukrainians on for as long as they want to fight.
    Hundreds of thousands of kids have not been kidnapped. The latest estimate I read is about 15k children moved to Russia. Lots of them orphans

    Russia is committing hideous crimes but it’s important we don’t go all “Belgian nun”

    The dilemma for Ukraine is much more painful than the one you posit. Russia cannot be defeated - unlike Germany in WW1 and WW2 - because nukes. In the end Russia will use a nuke if it has to. Probably it would go nuclear if Crimea was seriously close to being overrun

    So then it’s a question for Ukraine of how much territory it is willing to yield - for peace. Just Crimea? Donbass? All that Russia holds now?

    Alternatively it can throw wave after wave of young men into the mangler and get almost nowhere - as we see now - and sacrifice 1m men. And possibly/probably end up where it is now, anyway

    And then there are no young people left to rebuild what is left of the country

    I would love to see Ukraine win. It’s not happening
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,585
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    So Putin decided it would be a wizard wheeze to stop the grain deal and push up food costs worldwide, with large negative effects for poorer people.

    Unfortunately, he did not seem to realise that would make large parts of the Black Sea open waters for Ukrainian action.

    Slowly but surely the Russians are losing.
    Actually, they have already lost. Every single goal of their invasion has been thwarted. They have not got a secure land crossing to Crimea, they haven’t forced regime change in Kyiv, they have strengthened NATO and lengthened its border with Russia and they have limited control of part of Ukraine.

    On the way trashing their economy, isolating themselves diplomatically, killing tens of thousands of young men, stripping their armed forces of equipment and undermining the prestige of the government.

    The catch is not that they haven’t lost, but that the Ukrainians haven’t won. At least not yet. They may do but even with Russia’s difficulties progress is slow and painful for them. The question may become can their manpower reserves outlast the Russian economy?
    Yes they do. We know that countries that are motivated to continue the fight can bear huge losses. Ukraine has a similar population to the UK in WW1. It sustained massive losses in WW2, higher than Russia in terms of % of population.

    In an existential war that motivation is likely to be sustained. Fight or die.
    It must be nice for the Ukrainians to have you cheering them on, insisting they can afford to lose 1 million men (like the UK in WW1)

    All from your pulpit in…. Leicester
    I am amongst the most anti-war on this board. Little good comes of it and a lot of misery. I was just pointing out that as long as the motivation to fight continues, Ukraine will not run out of manpower. It will just become more grim.

    The same goes for Russia too obviously. Are they as motivated to be where they are unwanted?

    It looks like a grim attrition like WW1 for the foreseeable future.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,585

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I think it would be relatively easy for American liberal to deflate the Trump bubble, but they won't do it, because it would mean admitting they've got some things wrong over the last few years.

    Biden should pardon Trump. That leaves Trump with nothing to run on.

    “Nothing to run on”

    You what? American life expectancy is collapsing. Many of its cities are in steep decline. Addiction and overdose ravage the country. Migration is clearly out of control. Crime is resurgent and race/culture wars are everywhere

    Does Trump have any real solutions to any of this? Almost certainly not. But the idea he doesn’t have any material to work with is palpable nonsense
    Trump’s 2024 pitch is victimhood and the deep state. He’s talking about nothing else. A generic Republican can convincingly run on all that you talk about.

    And so can Trump. He can run on that. And he has a large personal folllowing as well. A motivated base. So what’s your point?
    That he is not running on any of those things currently. His base is motivated by his victimhood and calls to defeat the deep state, not to turn around falling life expectancy rates or tackle the opioids crisis.

    It is all about Trumps ego, and very little about Make America Great Again.
  • DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    So Putin decided it would be a wizard wheeze to stop the grain deal and push up food costs worldwide, with large negative effects for poorer people.

    Unfortunately, he did not seem to realise that would make large parts of the Black Sea open waters for Ukrainian action.

    Slowly but surely the Russians are losing.
    Actually, they have already lost. Every single goal of their invasion has been thwarted. They have not got a secure land crossing to Crimea, they haven’t forced regime change in Kyiv, they have strengthened NATO and lengthened its border with Russia and they have limited control of part of Ukraine.

    On the way trashing their economy, isolating themselves diplomatically, killing tens of thousands of young men, stripping their armed forces of equipment and undermining the prestige of the government.

    The catch is not that they haven’t lost, but that the Ukrainians haven’t won. At least not yet. They may do but even with Russia’s difficulties progress is slow and painful for them. The question may become can their manpower reserves outlast the Russian economy?
    Yes they do. We know that countries that are motivated to continue the fight can bear huge losses. Ukraine has a similar population to the UK in WW1. It sustained massive losses in WW2, higher than Russia in terms of % of population.

    In an existential war that motivation is likely to be sustained. Fight or die.
    But like Russia in WW1 (and very nearly France) large countries can suffer a war weariness that is simply unsustainable.

    The key to this is, in my view, casualty ratios. When Russia was attacking the Ukrainians were achieving something like 4 or 5 to 1 in their favour. The ratio, as they struggle through the minefields, is now thought to be nearer 1:1. I am not sure Ukraine can sustain that indefinitely, probably not for more than another year. They need to change the means of engagement again. That means getting through the minefields and into open combat where their superior armour makes more of a difference.
    A lot of the war weariness of WW1 was about the futility of it all, wasn’t it, and the awful leadership? The ongoing existence of France and Russia was not at stake.

  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,023

    Andy_JS said:

    I think it would be relatively easy for American liberal to deflate the Trump bubble, but they won't do it, because it would mean admitting they've got some things wrong over the last few years.

    Biden should pardon Trump. That leaves Trump with nothing to run on.

    Biden can only pardon Trump for federal crimes. Lots of the crimes he is charged with are state, and their prosecutions and punishments would continue.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,761
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I think it would be relatively easy for American liberal to deflate the Trump bubble, but they won't do it, because it would mean admitting they've got some things wrong over the last few years.

    Biden should pardon Trump. That leaves Trump with nothing to run on.

    “Nothing to run on”

    You what? American life expectancy is collapsing. Many of its cities are in steep decline. Addiction and overdose ravage the country. Migration is clearly out of control. Crime is resurgent and race/culture wars are everywhere

    Does Trump have any real solutions to any of this? Almost certainly not. But the idea he doesn’t have any material to work with is palpable nonsense
    Trump’s 2024 pitch is victimhood and the deep state. He’s talking about nothing else. A generic Republican can convincingly run on all that you talk about.

    And so can Trump. He can run on that. And he has a large personal folllowing as well. A motivated base. So what’s your point?
    Did you see this: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/spinning-ufo-with-fiery-thruster-spotted-as-us-officer-claims-shape-is-alien/ar-AA1eLQoi?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=fdaed16fc7f34b6b8f90c96af9c6c619&ei=50

    Quite remarkable footage.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,142

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    So Putin decided it would be a wizard wheeze to stop the grain deal and push up food costs worldwide, with large negative effects for poorer people.

    Unfortunately, he did not seem to realise that would make large parts of the Black Sea open waters for Ukrainian action.

    Slowly but surely the Russians are losing.
    Actually, they have already lost. Every single goal of their invasion has been thwarted. They have not got a secure land crossing to Crimea, they haven’t forced regime change in Kyiv, they have strengthened NATO and lengthened its border with Russia and they have limited control of part of Ukraine.

    On the way trashing their economy, isolating themselves diplomatically, killing tens of thousands of young men, stripping their armed forces of equipment and undermining the prestige of the government.

    The catch is not that they haven’t lost, but that the Ukrainians haven’t won. At least not yet. They may do but even with Russia’s difficulties progress is slow and painful for them. The question may become can their manpower reserves outlast the Russian economy?
    Yes they do. We know that countries that are motivated to continue the fight can bear huge losses. Ukraine has a similar population to the UK in WW1. It sustained massive losses in WW2, higher than Russia in terms of % of population.

    In an existential war that motivation is likely to be sustained. Fight or die.
    But like Russia in WW1 (and very nearly France) large countries can suffer a war weariness that is simply unsustainable.

    The key to this is, in my view, casualty ratios. When Russia was attacking the Ukrainians were achieving something like 4 or 5 to 1 in their favour. The ratio, as they struggle through the minefields, is now thought to be nearer 1:1. I am not sure Ukraine can sustain that indefinitely, probably not for more than another year. They need to change the means of engagement again. That means getting through the minefields and into open combat where their superior armour makes more of a difference.
    A lot of the war weariness of WW1 was about the futility of it all, wasn’t it, and the awful leadership? The ongoing existence of France and Russia was not at stake.

    Wtf?

    Because of WW1 Russia had a revolution, became communist, and atheist, and endured the absolute tragedy of Marxism. Tens of millions died, from Ukraine to the Gulags

    So yes Russia as we knew it disappeared

    Ditto Germany. It want from “civilised” European nation to Nazism. Because of WW1. The Germany we knew vanished

    Your analysis is painfully ahistoric and illiterate

    WW1 was a tragedy for humankind. I do not wish a version of it on Ukraine
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,955
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    So Putin decided it would be a wizard wheeze to stop the grain deal and push up food costs worldwide, with large negative effects for poorer people.

    Unfortunately, he did not seem to realise that would make large parts of the Black Sea open waters for Ukrainian action.

    Slowly but surely the Russians are losing.
    Actually, they have already lost. Every single goal of their invasion has been thwarted. They have not got a secure land crossing to Crimea, they haven’t forced regime change in Kyiv, they have strengthened NATO and lengthened its border with Russia and they have limited control of part of Ukraine.

    On the way trashing their economy, isolating themselves diplomatically, killing tens of thousands of young men, stripping their armed forces of equipment and undermining the prestige of the government.

    The catch is not that they haven’t lost, but that the Ukrainians haven’t won. At least not yet. They may do but even with Russia’s difficulties progress is slow and painful for them. The question may become can their manpower reserves outlast the Russian economy?
    Yes they do. We know that countries that are motivated to continue the fight can bear huge losses. Ukraine has a similar population to the UK in WW1. It sustained massive losses in WW2, higher than Russia in terms of % of population.

    In an existential war that motivation is likely to be sustained. Fight or die.
    It must be nice for the Ukrainians to have you cheering them on, insisting they can afford to lose 1 million men (like the UK in WW1)

    All from your pulpit in…. Leicester
    The Ukrainians can see what happens when Russia gains territory. It's not just a change in the top bods running the country. The eastern areas post 2014 became an absolute cesspit, with the 'authorities' doing lots of nasty things. In the areas the Russians took over since last year, hundreds of thousands of kids have been kidnapped and taken into Russia; thousands of Ukrainian civilians have been killed, property stolen wholesale, and Ukrainians treated as third-class citizens.

    They know that, and worse, is what lies in wait for any new territory gained by the Russians. It is a war of existence for the Ukrainians.

    Personally, I will continue to cheer the Ukrainians on for as long as they want to fight.
    Hundreds of thousands of kids have not been kidnapped. The latest estimate I read is about 15k children moved to Russia. Lots of them orphans

    Russia is committing hideous crimes but it’s important we don’t go all “Belgian nun”

    The dilemma for Ukraine is much more painful than the one you posit. Russia cannot be defeated - unlike Germany in WW1 and WW2 - because nukes. In the end Russia will use a nuke if it has to. Probably it would go nuclear if Crimea was seriously close to being overrun

    So then it’s a question for Ukraine of how much territory it is willing to yield - for peace. Just Crimea? Donbass? All that Russia holds now?

    No it isn't.
    As the Russians show no sign of seeking peace; at best, only a pause.

    The question is rather what is required for Ukraine to be certain that Russia will give up on conquering them.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,761

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    So Putin decided it would be a wizard wheeze to stop the grain deal and push up food costs worldwide, with large negative effects for poorer people.

    Unfortunately, he did not seem to realise that would make large parts of the Black Sea open waters for Ukrainian action.

    Slowly but surely the Russians are losing.
    Actually, they have already lost. Every single goal of their invasion has been thwarted. They have not got a secure land crossing to Crimea, they haven’t forced regime change in Kyiv, they have strengthened NATO and lengthened its border with Russia and they have limited control of part of Ukraine.

    On the way trashing their economy, isolating themselves diplomatically, killing tens of thousands of young men, stripping their armed forces of equipment and undermining the prestige of the government.

    The catch is not that they haven’t lost, but that the Ukrainians haven’t won. At least not yet. They may do but even with Russia’s difficulties progress is slow and painful for them. The question may become can their manpower reserves outlast the Russian economy?
    Yes they do. We know that countries that are motivated to continue the fight can bear huge losses. Ukraine has a similar population to the UK in WW1. It sustained massive losses in WW2, higher than Russia in terms of % of population.

    In an existential war that motivation is likely to be sustained. Fight or die.
    But like Russia in WW1 (and very nearly France) large countries can suffer a war weariness that is simply unsustainable.

    The key to this is, in my view, casualty ratios. When Russia was attacking the Ukrainians were achieving something like 4 or 5 to 1 in their favour. The ratio, as they struggle through the minefields, is now thought to be nearer 1:1. I am not sure Ukraine can sustain that indefinitely, probably not for more than another year. They need to change the means of engagement again. That means getting through the minefields and into open combat where their superior armour makes more of a difference.
    A lot of the war weariness of WW1 was about the futility of it all, wasn’t it, and the awful leadership? The ongoing existence of France and Russia was not at stake.

    Nor is the continued existence of Ukraine anymore. Something like 85% of the country is now free from Russian occupation and the Russians seem to have lost almost all offensive capacity. It is, as @Leon said, a question of whether they are willing to trade land for peace. So far, the answer is no. Whether it will remain that way is the question.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,487
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    So Putin decided it would be a wizard wheeze to stop the grain deal and push up food costs worldwide, with large negative effects for poorer people.

    Unfortunately, he did not seem to realise that would make large parts of the Black Sea open waters for Ukrainian action.

    Slowly but surely the Russians are losing.
    Actually, they have already lost. Every single goal of their invasion has been thwarted. They have not got a secure land crossing to Crimea, they haven’t forced regime change in Kyiv, they have strengthened NATO and lengthened its border with Russia and they have limited control of part of Ukraine.

    On the way trashing their economy, isolating themselves diplomatically, killing tens of thousands of young men, stripping their armed forces of equipment and undermining the prestige of the government.

    The catch is not that they haven’t lost, but that the Ukrainians haven’t won. At least not yet. They may do but even with Russia’s difficulties progress is slow and painful for them. The question may become can their manpower reserves outlast the Russian economy?
    Yes they do. We know that countries that are motivated to continue the fight can bear huge losses. Ukraine has a similar population to the UK in WW1. It sustained massive losses in WW2, higher than Russia in terms of % of population.

    In an existential war that motivation is likely to be sustained. Fight or die.
    It must be nice for the Ukrainians to have you cheering them on, insisting they can afford to lose 1 million men (like the UK in WW1)

    All from your pulpit in…. Leicester
    The Ukrainians can see what happens when Russia gains territory. It's not just a change in the top bods running the country. The eastern areas post 2014 became an absolute cesspit, with the 'authorities' doing lots of nasty things. In the areas the Russians took over since last year, hundreds of thousands of kids have been kidnapped and taken into Russia; thousands of Ukrainian civilians have been killed, property stolen wholesale, and Ukrainians treated as third-class citizens.

    They know that, and worse, is what lies in wait for any new territory gained by the Russians. It is a war of existence for the Ukrainians.

    Personally, I will continue to cheer the Ukrainians on for as long as they want to fight.
    Hundreds of thousands of kids have not been kidnapped. The latest estimate I read is about 15k children moved to Russia. Lots of them orphans

    Russia is committing hideous crimes but it’s important we don’t go all “Belgian nun”

    The dilemma for Ukraine is much more painful than the one you posit. Russia cannot be defeated - unlike Germany in WW1 and WW2 - because nukes. In the end Russia will use a nuke if it has to. Probably it would go nuclear if Crimea was seriously close to being overrun

    So then it’s a question for Ukraine of how much territory it is willing to yield - for peace. Just Crimea? Donbass? All that Russia holds now?

    Alternatively it can throw wave after wave of young men into the mangler and get almost nowhere - as we see now - and sacrifice 1m men. And possibly/probably end up where it is now, anyway

    And then there are no young people left to rebuild what is left of the country

    I would love to see Ukraine win. It’s not happening
    "Hundreds of thousands of kids have not been kidnapped. The latest estimate I read is about 15k children moved to Russia. Lots of them orphans "

    The Russians say different:
    "https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/moscow-says-700000-children-ukraine-conflict-zones-now-russia-2023-07-03/

    "In the end Russia will use a nuke if it has to."

    Russia will not use nukes, because that means disaster for them. There is no tactical or strategic benefit in using them over Ukraine. They *may* engineer an 'accident' at ZNPP, but even that is problematic.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,999

    ydoethur said:

    So Putin decided it would be a wizard wheeze to stop the grain deal and push up food costs worldwide, with large negative effects for poorer people.

    Unfortunately, he did not seem to realise that would make large parts of the Black Sea open waters for Ukrainian action.

    Slowly but surely the Russians are losing.
    Actually, they have already lost. Every single goal of their invasion has been thwarted. They have not got a secure land crossing to Crimea, they haven’t forced regime change in Kyiv, they have strengthened NATO and lengthened its border with Russia and they have limited control of part of Ukraine.

    On the way trashing their economy, isolating themselves diplomatically, killing tens of thousands of young men, stripping their armed forces of equipment and undermining the prestige of the government.

    The catch is not that they haven’t lost, but that the Ukrainians haven’t won. At least not yet. They may do but even with Russia’s difficulties progress is slow and painful for them. The question may become can their manpower reserves outlast the Russian economy?
    I don't think there's a scenario that leaves Russia stronger economically, militarily or reputationally than if they had not launched this invasion. It's been a disaster for them on so many levels. Even if they magically gain all of Ukraine - say, under a Trump presidency - they'll still have suffered massively, and have lost a greivous amount of financial power and reputation.
    China wins in just about every scenario with the exception of a definitive Ukrainian victory. It genuinely puzzles me that the US pro-Putin, pro-Trump right cannot see that.

    Do the US pro-Putin, pro-Trump strike you as being rational in any way?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,955
    Two back to back fifteen years periods.

    UK GDP per capita growth 1993Q1-2008Q1: over 40%

    UK GDP per capita growth 2008Q1-2023Q1: under 4%

    https://twitter.com/jdportes/status/1687356178232160256
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,142

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    So Putin decided it would be a wizard wheeze to stop the grain deal and push up food costs worldwide, with large negative effects for poorer people.

    Unfortunately, he did not seem to realise that would make large parts of the Black Sea open waters for Ukrainian action.

    Slowly but surely the Russians are losing.
    Actually, they have already lost. Every single goal of their invasion has been thwarted. They have not got a secure land crossing to Crimea, they haven’t forced regime change in Kyiv, they have strengthened NATO and lengthened its border with Russia and they have limited control of part of Ukraine.

    On the way trashing their economy, isolating themselves diplomatically, killing tens of thousands of young men, stripping their armed forces of equipment and undermining the prestige of the government.

    The catch is not that they haven’t lost, but that the Ukrainians haven’t won. At least not yet. They may do but even with Russia’s difficulties progress is slow and painful for them. The question may become can their manpower reserves outlast the Russian economy?
    Yes they do. We know that countries that are motivated to continue the fight can bear huge losses. Ukraine has a similar population to the UK in WW1. It sustained massive losses in WW2, higher than Russia in terms of % of population.

    In an existential war that motivation is likely to be sustained. Fight or die.
    It must be nice for the Ukrainians to have you cheering them on, insisting they can afford to lose 1 million men (like the UK in WW1)

    All from your pulpit in…. Leicester
    The Ukrainians can see what happens when Russia gains territory. It's not just a change in the top bods running the country. The eastern areas post 2014 became an absolute cesspit, with the 'authorities' doing lots of nasty things. In the areas the Russians took over since last year, hundreds of thousands of kids have been kidnapped and taken into Russia; thousands of Ukrainian civilians have been killed, property stolen wholesale, and Ukrainians treated as third-class citizens.

    They know that, and worse, is what lies in wait for any new territory gained by the Russians. It is a war of existence for the Ukrainians.

    Personally, I will continue to cheer the Ukrainians on for as long as they want to fight.
    Hundreds of thousands of kids have not been kidnapped. The latest estimate I read is about 15k children moved to Russia. Lots of them orphans

    Russia is committing hideous crimes but it’s important we don’t go all “Belgian nun”

    The dilemma for Ukraine is much more painful than the one you posit. Russia cannot be defeated - unlike Germany in WW1 and WW2 - because nukes. In the end Russia will use a nuke if it has to. Probably it would go nuclear if Crimea was seriously close to being overrun

    So then it’s a question for Ukraine of how much territory it is willing to yield - for peace. Just Crimea? Donbass? All that Russia holds now?

    Alternatively it can throw wave after wave of young men into the mangler and get almost nowhere - as we see now - and sacrifice 1m men. And possibly/probably end up where it is now, anyway

    And then there are no young people left to rebuild what is left of the country

    I would love to see Ukraine win. It’s not happening
    "Hundreds of thousands of kids have not been kidnapped. The latest estimate I read is about 15k children moved to Russia. Lots of them orphans "

    The Russians say different:
    "https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/moscow-says-700000-children-ukraine-conflict-zones-now-russia-2023-07-03/

    "In the end Russia will use a nuke if it has to."

    Russia will not use nukes, because that means disaster for them. There is no tactical or strategic benefit in using them over Ukraine. They *may* engineer an 'accident' at ZNPP, but even that is problematic.

    “Since Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, Russian soldiers have forcibly taken an estimated 16,000 Ukrainian children to Russia. Over 300 children have since returned home, but it is not clear what happened to most of the rest.”

    https://fortune.com/2023/07/07/why-is-russia-kidnapping-ukrainian-children-vladimir-putin-soviet-book-author/

    As for nukes, of course Russia will in the end resort to nukes if it feels existentially threatened. The question is where is that existential line? That is much harder to say. I reckon it probably surrounds Crimea
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,487
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    So Putin decided it would be a wizard wheeze to stop the grain deal and push up food costs worldwide, with large negative effects for poorer people.

    Unfortunately, he did not seem to realise that would make large parts of the Black Sea open waters for Ukrainian action.

    Slowly but surely the Russians are losing.
    Actually, they have already lost. Every single goal of their invasion has been thwarted. They have not got a secure land crossing to Crimea, they haven’t forced regime change in Kyiv, they have strengthened NATO and lengthened its border with Russia and they have limited control of part of Ukraine.

    On the way trashing their economy, isolating themselves diplomatically, killing tens of thousands of young men, stripping their armed forces of equipment and undermining the prestige of the government.

    The catch is not that they haven’t lost, but that the Ukrainians haven’t won. At least not yet. They may do but even with Russia’s difficulties progress is slow and painful for them. The question may become can their manpower reserves outlast the Russian economy?
    Yes they do. We know that countries that are motivated to continue the fight can bear huge losses. Ukraine has a similar population to the UK in WW1. It sustained massive losses in WW2, higher than Russia in terms of % of population.

    In an existential war that motivation is likely to be sustained. Fight or die.
    But like Russia in WW1 (and very nearly France) large countries can suffer a war weariness that is simply unsustainable.

    The key to this is, in my view, casualty ratios. When Russia was attacking the Ukrainians were achieving something like 4 or 5 to 1 in their favour. The ratio, as they struggle through the minefields, is now thought to be nearer 1:1. I am not sure Ukraine can sustain that indefinitely, probably not for more than another year. They need to change the means of engagement again. That means getting through the minefields and into open combat where their superior armour makes more of a difference.
    A lot of the war weariness of WW1 was about the futility of it all, wasn’t it, and the awful leadership? The ongoing existence of France and Russia was not at stake.

    Wtf?

    Because of WW1 Russia had a revolution, became communist, and atheist, and endured the absolute tragedy of Marxism. Tens of millions died, from Ukraine to the Gulags

    So yes Russia as we knew it disappeared

    (Snip)
    It can be argued that Russia went from the absolute tragedy of the feudalist Romanov Dynasty that killed millions to the absolute tragedy of the Communist system that killed millions.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,758
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. B, the 1993 to 2008 period was right after a recession and right before a financial crisis, whereas the 2008 to 2023 period includes the financial crisis and the pandemic.

    It's not exactly surprising the period with no recessions looks better.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,273

    nico679 said:

    I think Khan should have delayed the extension of Ulez by 6 months but the scheme does need to come in .

    The problem at the moment is people falling for the Tory scare mongering and being too lazy to just find out if they’re effected .

    Of course the Tories who have nothing to offer will jump on anything . It might make things a little difficult for Labour in certain target seats. I don’t see how though if you’re a Labour supporter you’re going to suddenly say I’ll vote Tory over this .



    He'd have been a fool to delay ULEZ six months as that would've taken him to the eve of the Mayoral election. He's much better off getting the pain over with now.
    Oh I forgot about that mayoral election being next year .
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,487
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    So Putin decided it would be a wizard wheeze to stop the grain deal and push up food costs worldwide, with large negative effects for poorer people.

    Unfortunately, he did not seem to realise that would make large parts of the Black Sea open waters for Ukrainian action.

    Slowly but surely the Russians are losing.
    Actually, they have already lost. Every single goal of their invasion has been thwarted. They have not got a secure land crossing to Crimea, they haven’t forced regime change in Kyiv, they have strengthened NATO and lengthened its border with Russia and they have limited control of part of Ukraine.

    On the way trashing their economy, isolating themselves diplomatically, killing tens of thousands of young men, stripping their armed forces of equipment and undermining the prestige of the government.

    The catch is not that they haven’t lost, but that the Ukrainians haven’t won. At least not yet. They may do but even with Russia’s difficulties progress is slow and painful for them. The question may become can their manpower reserves outlast the Russian economy?
    Yes they do. We know that countries that are motivated to continue the fight can bear huge losses. Ukraine has a similar population to the UK in WW1. It sustained massive losses in WW2, higher than Russia in terms of % of population.

    In an existential war that motivation is likely to be sustained. Fight or die.
    It must be nice for the Ukrainians to have you cheering them on, insisting they can afford to lose 1 million men (like the UK in WW1)

    All from your pulpit in…. Leicester
    The Ukrainians can see what happens when Russia gains territory. It's not just a change in the top bods running the country. The eastern areas post 2014 became an absolute cesspit, with the 'authorities' doing lots of nasty things. In the areas the Russians took over since last year, hundreds of thousands of kids have been kidnapped and taken into Russia; thousands of Ukrainian civilians have been killed, property stolen wholesale, and Ukrainians treated as third-class citizens.

    They know that, and worse, is what lies in wait for any new territory gained by the Russians. It is a war of existence for the Ukrainians.

    Personally, I will continue to cheer the Ukrainians on for as long as they want to fight.
    Hundreds of thousands of kids have not been kidnapped. The latest estimate I read is about 15k children moved to Russia. Lots of them orphans

    Russia is committing hideous crimes but it’s important we don’t go all “Belgian nun”

    The dilemma for Ukraine is much more painful than the one you posit. Russia cannot be defeated - unlike Germany in WW1 and WW2 - because nukes. In the end Russia will use a nuke if it has to. Probably it would go nuclear if Crimea was seriously close to being overrun

    So then it’s a question for Ukraine of how much territory it is willing to yield - for peace. Just Crimea? Donbass? All that Russia holds now?

    Alternatively it can throw wave after wave of young men into the mangler and get almost nowhere - as we see now - and sacrifice 1m men. And possibly/probably end up where it is now, anyway

    And then there are no young people left to rebuild what is left of the country

    I would love to see Ukraine win. It’s not happening
    "Hundreds of thousands of kids have not been kidnapped. The latest estimate I read is about 15k children moved to Russia. Lots of them orphans "

    The Russians say different:
    "https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/moscow-says-700000-children-ukraine-conflict-zones-now-russia-2023-07-03/

    "In the end Russia will use a nuke if it has to."

    Russia will not use nukes, because that means disaster for them. There is no tactical or strategic benefit in using them over Ukraine. They *may* engineer an 'accident' at ZNPP, but even that is problematic.

    “Since Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, Russian soldiers have forcibly taken an estimated 16,000 Ukrainian children to Russia. Over 300 children have since returned home, but it is not clear what happened to most of the rest.”

    https://fortune.com/2023/07/07/why-is-russia-kidnapping-ukrainian-children-vladimir-putin-soviet-book-author/

    As for nukes, of course Russia will in the end resort to nukes if it feels existentially threatened. The question is where is that existential line? That is much harder to say. I reckon it probably surrounds Crimea
    I might suggest you read my link re. the children. You know, the one from the *Russians*. Also note there are *confirmed* kidnappings, and the ones the Ukrainians cannot be sure about because they no longer control the territory.

    As for nukes: they won't use them over Ukraine, for that way leads them to all sorts of disasters. I know you love the extreme and the exciting, but it's pretty simple: a nuclear strike on Ukraine would lead to consequences that Russia cannot control, and lose them what little remaining international goodwill they have.

    If Putin was going to use nukes, he would have used them in March or April last year when it first became clear he was losing, at about the time of the withdrawal from Kyiv. But he didn't use them, because he isn't actually mad. Evil, certainly, but not mad.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,142
    Another absolutely hideous Romanian city. Impoverished and depressing. Only old people and hoodlums remain. Communism did this. WW1 did this

    WW1 was a global disaster
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,761
    Nigelb said:

    Two back to back fifteen years periods.

    UK GDP per capita growth 1993Q1-2008Q1: over 40%

    UK GDP per capita growth 2008Q1-2023Q1: under 4%

    https://twitter.com/jdportes/status/1687356178232160256

    The horrific consequences of the GFC.

    With the benefit of hindsight, did the policies started by Brown and continued by the Coalition, of large scale deficits and extremely easy monetary conditions to offset the consequences of the crash do more harm than good? The GFC on the surface caused far less damage than, say, the Wall Street crash in 1929 but its effects have been far more insidious and long lasting.
  • Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    So Putin decided it would be a wizard wheeze to stop the grain deal and push up food costs worldwide, with large negative effects for poorer people.

    Unfortunately, he did not seem to realise that would make large parts of the Black Sea open waters for Ukrainian action.

    Slowly but surely the Russians are losing.
    Actually, they have already lost. Every single goal of their invasion has been thwarted. They have not got a secure land crossing to Crimea, they haven’t forced regime change in Kyiv, they have strengthened NATO and lengthened its border with Russia and they have limited control of part of Ukraine.

    On the way trashing their economy, isolating themselves diplomatically, killing tens of thousands of young men, stripping their armed forces of equipment and undermining the prestige of the government.

    The catch is not that they haven’t lost, but that the Ukrainians haven’t won. At least not yet. They may do but even with Russia’s difficulties progress is slow and painful for them. The question may become can their manpower reserves outlast the Russian economy?
    Yes they do. We know that countries that are motivated to continue the fight can bear huge losses. Ukraine has a similar population to the UK in WW1. It sustained massive losses in WW2, higher than Russia in terms of % of population.

    In an existential war that motivation is likely to be sustained. Fight or die.
    But like Russia in WW1 (and very nearly France) large countries can suffer a war weariness that is simply unsustainable.

    The key to this is, in my view, casualty ratios. When Russia was attacking the Ukrainians were achieving something like 4 or 5 to 1 in their favour. The ratio, as they struggle through the minefields, is now thought to be nearer 1:1. I am not sure Ukraine can sustain that indefinitely, probably not for more than another year. They need to change the means of engagement again. That means getting through the minefields and into open combat where their superior armour makes more of a difference.
    A lot of the war weariness of WW1 was about the futility of it all, wasn’t it, and the awful leadership? The ongoing existence of France and Russia was not at stake.

    Wtf?

    Because of WW1 Russia had a revolution, became communist, and atheist, and endured the absolute tragedy of Marxism. Tens of millions died, from Ukraine to the Gulags

    So yes Russia as we knew it disappeared

    Ditto Germany. It want from “civilised” European nation to Nazism. Because of WW1. The Germany we knew vanished

    Your analysis is painfully ahistoric and illiterate

    WW1 was a tragedy for humankind. I do not wish a version of it on Ukraine
    Where did I say that WW1 was not a tragedy for humankind? What it led to was disastrous - and it was entirely avoidable. That amplifies the tragedy. In 1914, the existence of neither Russia nor France was at stake. There was no forseeable path to Germany becoming a genocidal pariah state. That’s not ahistorical, that’s fact. The weariness set in because there was so much carnage and no real reason for it to be happening.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,861
    Hold on team let us not forget that the mere mention of a possible ceasefire while the Ukrainian forces remain outside Moscow is proof if proof be needed of your status as Putin apologist and lapdog and likely Russian troll operating from the heart of the FSS complex.

    It is of course for the Ukrainian to determine when or if they want to begin negotiations but it is for us to note that such conflicts often if not always end via negotiation.
  • ydoethur said:

    So Putin decided it would be a wizard wheeze to stop the grain deal and push up food costs worldwide, with large negative effects for poorer people.

    Unfortunately, he did not seem to realise that would make large parts of the Black Sea open waters for Ukrainian action.

    Slowly but surely the Russians are losing.
    Actually, they have already lost. Every single goal of their invasion has been thwarted. They have not got a secure land crossing to Crimea, they haven’t forced regime change in Kyiv, they have strengthened NATO and lengthened its border with Russia and they have limited control of part of Ukraine.

    On the way trashing their economy, isolating themselves diplomatically, killing tens of thousands of young men, stripping their armed forces of equipment and undermining the prestige of the government.

    The catch is not that they haven’t lost, but that the Ukrainians haven’t won. At least not yet. They may do but even with Russia’s difficulties progress is slow and painful for them. The question may become can their manpower reserves outlast the Russian economy?
    I don't think there's a scenario that leaves Russia stronger economically, militarily or reputationally than if they had not launched this invasion. It's been a disaster for them on so many levels. Even if they magically gain all of Ukraine - say, under a Trump presidency - they'll still have suffered massively, and have lost a greivous amount of financial power and reputation.
    China wins in just about every scenario with the exception of a definitive Ukrainian victory. It genuinely puzzles me that the US pro-Putin, pro-Trump right cannot see that.

    Do the US pro-Putin, pro-Trump strike you as being rational in any way?
    Fair point! We’re in a whole heap of trouble if they takeover again.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,142
    No N

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    So Putin decided it would be a wizard wheeze to stop the grain deal and push up food costs worldwide, with large negative effects for poorer people.

    Unfortunately, he did not seem to realise that would make large parts of the Black Sea open waters for Ukrainian action.

    Slowly but surely the Russians are losing.
    Actually, they have already lost. Every single goal of their invasion has been thwarted. They have not got a secure land crossing to Crimea, they haven’t forced regime change in Kyiv, they have strengthened NATO and lengthened its border with Russia and they have limited control of part of Ukraine.

    On the way trashing their economy, isolating themselves diplomatically, killing tens of thousands of young men, stripping their armed forces of equipment and undermining the prestige of the government.

    The catch is not that they haven’t lost, but that the Ukrainians haven’t won. At least not yet. They may do but even with Russia’s difficulties progress is slow and painful for them. The question may become can their manpower reserves outlast the Russian economy?
    Yes they do. We know that countries that are motivated to continue the fight can bear huge losses. Ukraine has a similar population to the UK in WW1. It sustained massive losses in WW2, higher than Russia in terms of % of population.

    In an existential war that motivation is likely to be sustained. Fight or die.
    It must be nice for the Ukrainians to have you cheering them on, insisting they can afford to lose 1 million men (like the UK in WW1)

    All from your pulpit in…. Leicester
    The Ukrainians can see what happens when Russia gains territory. It's not just a change in the top bods running the country. The eastern areas post 2014 became an absolute cesspit, with the 'authorities' doing lots of nasty things. In the areas the Russians took over since last year, hundreds of thousands of kids have been kidnapped and taken into Russia; thousands of Ukrainian civilians have been killed, property stolen wholesale, and Ukrainians treated as third-class citizens.

    They know that, and worse, is what lies in wait for any new territory gained by the Russians. It is a war of existence for the Ukrainians.

    Personally, I will continue to cheer the Ukrainians on for as long as they want to fight.
    Hundreds of thousands of kids have not been kidnapped. The latest estimate I read is about 15k children moved to Russia. Lots of them orphans

    Russia is committing hideous crimes but it’s important we don’t go all “Belgian nun”

    The dilemma for Ukraine is much more painful than the one you posit. Russia cannot be defeated - unlike Germany in WW1 and WW2 - because nukes. In the end Russia will use a nuke if it has to. Probably it would go nuclear if Crimea was seriously close to being overrun

    So then it’s a question for Ukraine of how much territory it is willing to yield - for peace. Just Crimea? Donbass? All that Russia holds now?

    Alternatively it can throw wave after wave of young men into the mangler and get almost nowhere - as we see now - and sacrifice 1m men. And possibly/probably end up where it is now, anyway

    And then there are no young people left to rebuild what is left of the country

    I would love to see Ukraine win. It’s not happening
    "Hundreds of thousands of kids have not been kidnapped. The latest estimate I read is about 15k children moved to Russia. Lots of them orphans "

    The Russians say different:
    "https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/moscow-says-700000-children-ukraine-conflict-zones-now-russia-2023-07-03/

    "In the end Russia will use a nuke if it has to."

    Russia will not use nukes, because that means disaster for them. There is no tactical or strategic benefit in using them over Ukraine. They *may* engineer an 'accident' at ZNPP, but even that is problematic.

    “Since Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, Russian soldiers have forcibly taken an estimated 16,000 Ukrainian children to Russia. Over 300 children have since returned home, but it is not clear what happened to most of the rest.”

    https://fortune.com/2023/07/07/why-is-russia-kidnapping-ukrainian-children-vladimir-putin-soviet-book-author/

    As for nukes, of course Russia will in the end resort to nukes if it feels existentially threatened. The question is where is that existential line? That is much harder to say. I reckon it probably surrounds Crimea
    I might suggest you read my link re. the children. You know, the one from the *Russians*. Also note there are *confirmed* kidnappings, and the ones the Ukrainians cannot be sure about because they no longer control the territory.

    As for nukes: they won't use them over Ukraine, for that way leads them to all sorts of disasters. I know you love the extreme and the exciting, but it's pretty simple: a nuclear strike on Ukraine would lead to consequences that Russia cannot control, and lose them what little remaining international goodwill they have.

    If Putin was going to use nukes, he would have used them in March or April last year when it first became clear he was losing, at about the time of the withdrawal from Kyiv. But he didn't use them, because he isn't actually mad. Evil, certainly, but not mad.
    The “700,000 kidnapped children” meme is almost certainly bullshit. You just have to sit down and think about it for a while. It’s a ridiculous number

    The equivalent in the UK would be 1.3 million children forcibly taken to France

    The rest of your comment continues in the same vein
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,761
    Leon said:

    Another absolutely hideous Romanian city. Impoverished and depressing. Only old people and hoodlums remain. Communism did this. WW1 did this

    WW1 was a global disaster

    Also a consequence of their assumption into the EU in 2007 and freedom of movement. The country has emptied out.

    WW1 was indeed a world wide disaster but it was particularly so for the UK who largely funded the winning side and never really recovered. It was, for all practical purposes, the end of the Empire system that had been built up over the preceding 200 years.

    It is perhaps more evident in Scotland where the population has not grown the way it has in England but every Scottish village, where comparatively few people live, even today, there are war memorials where the casualties from WW1 are multiples of WW2.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,103
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    So Putin decided it would be a wizard wheeze to stop the grain deal and push up food costs worldwide, with large negative effects for poorer people.

    Unfortunately, he did not seem to realise that would make large parts of the Black Sea open waters for Ukrainian action.

    Slowly but surely the Russians are losing.
    Actually, they have already lost. Every single goal of their invasion has been thwarted. They have not got a secure land crossing to Crimea, they haven’t forced regime change in Kyiv, they have strengthened NATO and lengthened its border with Russia and they have limited control of part of Ukraine.

    On the way trashing their economy, isolating themselves diplomatically, killing tens of thousands of young men, stripping their armed forces of equipment and undermining the prestige of the government.

    The catch is not that they haven’t lost, but that the Ukrainians haven’t won. At least not yet. They may do but even with Russia’s difficulties progress is slow and painful for them. The question may become can their manpower reserves outlast the Russian economy?
    Yes they do. We know that countries that are motivated to continue the fight can bear huge losses. Ukraine has a similar population to the UK in WW1. It sustained massive losses in WW2, higher than Russia in terms of % of population.

    In an existential war that motivation is likely to be sustained. Fight or die.
    It must be nice for the Ukrainians to have you cheering them on, insisting they can afford to lose 1 million men (like the UK in WW1)

    All from your pulpit in…. Leicester
    The Ukrainians can see what happens when Russia gains territory. It's not just a change in the top bods running the country. The eastern areas post 2014 became an absolute cesspit, with the 'authorities' doing lots of nasty things. In the areas the Russians took over since last year, hundreds of thousands of kids have been kidnapped and taken into Russia; thousands of Ukrainian civilians have been killed, property stolen wholesale, and Ukrainians treated as third-class citizens.

    They know that, and worse, is what lies in wait for any new territory gained by the Russians. It is a war of existence for the Ukrainians.

    Personally, I will continue to cheer the Ukrainians on for as long as they want to fight.
    Hundreds of thousands of kids have not been kidnapped. The latest estimate I read is about 15k children moved to Russia. Lots of them orphans

    Russia is committing hideous crimes but it’s important we don’t go all “Belgian nun”

    The dilemma for Ukraine is much more painful than the one you posit. Russia cannot be defeated - unlike Germany in WW1 and WW2 - because nukes. In the end Russia will use a nuke if it has to. Probably it would go nuclear if Crimea was seriously close to being overrun

    So then it’s a question for Ukraine of how much territory it is willing to yield - for peace. Just Crimea? Donbass? All that Russia holds now?

    No it isn't.
    As the Russians show no sign of seeking peace; at best, only a pause.

    The question is rather what is required for Ukraine to be certain that Russia will give up on conquering them.

    Regime change in Russia. Putin is now President for Life. If he loses, finally, in Ukraine (if say, all the non Crimean territorial gains are lost) then he will be overthrown.

    He will be dead, because the next regime won’t take the political hit of sending him to The Hague. Throwing him out of a window will be easier.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,350
    TOPPING said:

    Hold on team let us not forget that the mere mention of a possible ceasefire while the Ukrainian forces remain outside Moscow is proof if proof be needed of your status as Putin apologist and lapdog and likely Russian troll operating from the heart of the FSS complex.

    It is of course for the Ukrainian to determine when or if they want to begin negotiations but it is for us to note that such conflicts often if not always end via negotiation.

    Careful. Our more bellicose friends could mistake you for the Saturday morning guest poster, who is yet to appear despite the Ukraine/Russia discussion.
    What's your view on vaccines, anyway?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,406
    Good morning everyone.
    Although weatherwise here it doesn’t look very good.
    Where is our new member today? Or are we doing the pro-Russian stuff ourselves?
  • DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Two back to back fifteen years periods.

    UK GDP per capita growth 1993Q1-2008Q1: over 40%

    UK GDP per capita growth 2008Q1-2023Q1: under 4%

    https://twitter.com/jdportes/status/1687356178232160256

    The horrific consequences of the GFC.

    With the benefit of hindsight, did the policies started by Brown and continued by the Coalition, of large scale deficits and extremely easy monetary conditions to offset the consequences of the crash do more harm than good? The GFC on the surface caused far less damage than, say, the Wall Street crash in 1929 but its effects have been far more insidious and long lasting.
    The GFC exposed a UK economic model built on shifting sands with a huge over-reliance on financial services at its heart. We need the foundations to create an alternative model - good transport links, universal high-speed internet, affordable childcare and housing, an adequate health service and social care provision etc - but have spent the last 15 years failing to create any of them and have generally made all our long-term problems worse.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,103
    TOPPING said:

    Hold on team let us not forget that the mere mention of a possible ceasefire while the Ukrainian forces remain outside Moscow is proof if proof be needed of your status as Putin apologist and lapdog and likely Russian troll operating from the heart of the FSS complex.

    It is of course for the Ukrainian to determine when or if they want to begin negotiations but it is for us to note that such conflicts often if not always end via negotiation.

    Everything (pretty much) ends in negotiating.

    The problem, for the Ukrainians, is that anything less than Russians admitting they lost guarantees another round.

    Which in turn guarantees that Ukraine will acquire nuclear weapons.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,142
    No N
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Another absolutely hideous Romanian city. Impoverished and depressing. Only old people and hoodlums remain. Communism did this. WW1 did this

    WW1 was a global disaster

    Also a consequence of their assumption into the EU in 2007 and freedom of movement. The country has emptied out.

    WW1 was indeed a world wide disaster but it was particularly so for the UK who largely funded the winning side and never really recovered. It was, for all practical purposes, the end of the Empire system that had been built up over the preceding 200 years.

    It is perhaps more evident in Scotland where the population has not grown the way it has in England but every Scottish village, where comparatively few people live, even today, there are war memorials where the casualties from WW1 are multiples of WW2.
    Yes. WW1 was calamitous for us - but I don’t think we suffered in any special way. It was also calamitous for France, Italy, Austro-
    Hungary (which disappeared) and most of all Russia and Germany - which as a direct result went on to communism and Nazism. And yet more horrors - even worse for much of Europe

    A world without WW1 is one of the most haunting of counter factuals. What might have been

    Russia was evolving towards democracy. Swiftly industrialising. Sad
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,291
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Two back to back fifteen years periods.

    UK GDP per capita growth 1993Q1-2008Q1: over 40%

    UK GDP per capita growth 2008Q1-2023Q1: under 4%

    https://twitter.com/jdportes/status/1687356178232160256

    The horrific consequences of the GFC.

    With the benefit of hindsight, did the policies started by Brown and continued by the Coalition, of large scale deficits and extremely easy monetary conditions to offset the consequences of the crash do more harm than good? The GFC on the surface caused far less damage than, say, the Wall Street crash in 1929 but its effects have been far more insidious and long lasting.
    We avoided mass unemployment at the cost of creating long term stagnation.

    If Britain can manage to end long term stagnation without a period of mass unemployment it will be regarded as a good trade. But how to do that?
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,023
    edited August 2023

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. B, the 1993 to 2008 period was right after a recession and right before a financial crisis, whereas the 2008 to 2023 period includes the financial crisis and the pandemic.

    It's not exactly surprising the period with no recessions looks better.

    True, but only part of the truth. The other big difference is that between 1993 and 2008 more of Mrs Thatcher's free-market reforms were still in place, and the government hadn't yet fallen in love with excessive regulation, green crap and excessive taxation.

    Given the governments we've had for the last couple of decades, I'm surprised we've grown at all.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,861

    TOPPING said:

    Hold on team let us not forget that the mere mention of a possible ceasefire while the Ukrainian forces remain outside Moscow is proof if proof be needed of your status as Putin apologist and lapdog and likely Russian troll operating from the heart of the FSS complex.

    It is of course for the Ukrainian to determine when or if they want to begin negotiations but it is for us to note that such conflicts often if not always end via negotiation.

    Careful. Our more bellicose friends could mistake you for the Saturday morning guest poster, who is yet to appear despite the Ukraine/Russia discussion.
    What's your view on vaccines, anyway?
    Go Djoko!
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,972
    TOPPING said:

    Hold on team let us not forget that the mere mention of a possible ceasefire while the Ukrainian forces remain outside Moscow is proof if proof be needed of your status as Putin apologist and lapdog and likely Russian troll operating from the heart of the FSS complex.

    It is of course for the Ukrainian to determine when or if they want to begin negotiations but it is for us to note that such conflicts often if not always end via negotiation.

    And Ukraine shows no sign of wishing to negotiate with a regime that openly wants it to cease to exist. However, several in the US, Germany and elsewhere seem to be ready to hand Ukraine on a plate to its Russian masters by cutting off arms supplies. Even now they are asking it to fight with one hand tied behind its back.

    We are talking about global mobsters here. A regime that is amoral and positively evil, and perceives compromise as a sign of weakness. Ukraine has every right to chase them out of their country, and if our governments choke off their weapons supply then they are cowards and accessories.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,861
    Leon said:

    No N

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Another absolutely hideous Romanian city. Impoverished and depressing. Only old people and hoodlums remain. Communism did this. WW1 did this

    WW1 was a global disaster

    Also a consequence of their assumption into the EU in 2007 and freedom of movement. The country has emptied out.

    WW1 was indeed a world wide disaster but it was particularly so for the UK who largely funded the winning side and never really recovered. It was, for all practical purposes, the end of the Empire system that had been built up over the preceding 200 years.

    It is perhaps more evident in Scotland where the population has not grown the way it has in England but every Scottish village, where comparatively few people live, even today, there are war memorials where the casualties from WW1 are multiples of WW2.
    Yes. WW1 was calamitous for us - but I don’t think we suffered in any special way. It was also calamitous for France, Italy, Austro-
    Hungary (which disappeared) and most of all Russia and Germany - which as a direct result went on to communism and Nazism. And yet more horrors - even worse for much of Europe

    A world without WW1 is one of the most haunting of counter factuals. What might have been

    Russia was evolving towards democracy. Swiftly industrialising. Sad
    There is a good quote which I can't quite remember which goes along the lines of WWI began because no one could be bothered to think of or put forward a reason not to start a war.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,524

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Two back to back fifteen years periods.

    UK GDP per capita growth 1993Q1-2008Q1: over 40%

    UK GDP per capita growth 2008Q1-2023Q1: under 4%

    https://twitter.com/jdportes/status/1687356178232160256

    The horrific consequences of the GFC.

    With the benefit of hindsight, did the policies started by Brown and continued by the Coalition, of large scale deficits and extremely easy monetary conditions to offset the consequences of the crash do more harm than good? The GFC on the surface caused far less damage than, say, the Wall Street crash in 1929 but its effects have been far more insidious and long lasting.
    The GFC exposed a UK economic model built on shifting sands with a huge over-reliance on financial services at its heart. We need the foundations to create an alternative model - good transport links, universal high-speed internet, affordable childcare and housing, an adequate health service and social care provision etc - but have spent the last 15 years failing to create any of them and have generally made all our long-term problems worse.

    The biggest single issue is the cost of housing. There needs to be housebuilding on a scale last seen after WWII, using a more modern version of the pre-fabs of the 1940s, at least a million a year for the next five years. It needs to be not just possible but achieveable, for a family to live on a single median income in the vast majority of the country, as it was until around the last three decades.
This discussion has been closed.