Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Can anything shift the polls for Sunak? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,216
edited August 2023 in General
Can anything shift the polls for Sunak? – politicalbetting.com

Per David Cowling. July poll averages compared to start of yearLab 47% (nc)Con 27% (+1)Lib Dem 10% (+1)Greens 4% (-1)Other 12% (-1)Not much change there then! pic.twitter.com/hUEAkM6msV

Read the full story here

«1345

Comments

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    First.

    And no.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    It seems the Tories have scheduled this early part of the holiday season as one when the PM can be doing things each day...

    ...and next, he's off on a holiday to California, just like everyone does at this time of cost of living crisis year.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,771
    Polls - a bit like the (normal) weather in California: same as yesterday
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,406
    @SeaShantyIrish2 . I note your mentions of Eugene Victor Debs. In the Timeline-191 series of books by Harry Turtledove, he actually becomes President and is thought to be a successful one. It is odd to hear the real-life history of somebody I've only ever known in alternate history.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    Negatively? Yes.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,038
    geoffw said: "Polls - a bit like the (normal) weather in California: same as yesterday"

    I assume this is what you were referring to: 'New snowfall across California today, with Hagan'S Meadow receiving up to 10” of new snowfall, raising snowpack levels up to 9”.'
    source: https://snoflo.org/snow/report/california/
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,937
    The biggest change Sunak needs is for inflation to keep falling. The less voters are worried about cost of living the less they will feel a need to change government, some tax cuts too once that is done would also help swing undecideds back to the Tories
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,771
    Looks like UK

    geoffw said: "Polls - a bit like the (normal) weather in California: same as yesterday"

    I assume this is what you were referring to: 'New snowfall across California today, with Hagan'S Meadow receiving up to 10” of new snowfall, raising snowpack levels up to 9”.'
    source: https://snoflo.org/snow/report/california/

    I lived there for much of 1994, and the weatherman often said "same as yesterday"

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,364
    edited August 2023
    HYUFD said:

    The biggest change Sunak needs is for inflation to keep falling. The less voters are worried about cost of living the less they will feel a need to change government, some tax cuts too once that is done would also help swing undecideds back to the Tories

    "inflation falls" does not mean "cheaper prices"; in the current context it means "prices that have already gone up a lot more than wages and which are still going up".
  • OldBasingOldBasing Posts: 173
    Maybe if we're all feeling substantially more wealthy by election time, but I'm struggling to be convinced. I'm not sure I get why Sunak has gone policy blitz this week when no-one is paying attention and off on holiday. Can only think the Selby result led to a "Do Something" panic. And it feels like panic.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,937

    It seems the Tories have scheduled this early part of the holiday season as one when the PM can be doing things each day...

    ...and next, he's off on a holiday to California, just like everyone does at this time of cost of living crisis year.

    If I was Sunak I would have taken my summer holiday in Blackpool or Cornwall certainly, I am sure he will have a great time in California but it is not great PR with an election next year and cost of living still an issue.

    Voters didn't begrudge Blair his Tuscan and Caribbean holidays as the economy was still growing strongly and inflation was low, however when the economy is less good voters don't like PMs in the sun. Callaghan's 'crisis what crisis' remark after returning from holiday in Guadeloupe wasn't rewarded by the voters in 1979 given the high inflation and strikes at the time
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    STOP FUCKING MOANING, YOU COULD BE IN UKRAINE
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    edited August 2023
    HYUFD said:

    The biggest change Sunak needs is for inflation to keep falling. The less voters are worried about cost of living the less they will feel a need to change government, some tax cuts too once that is done would also help swing undecideds back to the Tories

    I don't think so. Major had more or less got the economy back on track by 1997 but the voters had already decided and thus the Tories were screwed. Same this time.

    For nothing now can ever come to any good with this Conservative administration.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,140
    I can't see it myself. He will soon be at Truss or end-stage Johnson levels of approval, and his party's approval lower still.

    Not much will change in the polling until the GE is called and focuses minds. Until then we have a lame duck government despite its majority, and a country fraying at the edges, with the majority of public services giving off a stench of failure.

    It is like the tail end of John Major's government, only with a worse economy.
  • geoffw said: "Polls - a bit like the (normal) weather in California: same as yesterday"

    I assume this is what you were referring to: 'New snowfall across California today, with Hagan'S Meadow receiving up to 10” of new snowfall, raising snowpack levels up to 9”.'
    source: https://snoflo.org/snow/report/california/

    Not something I would have expected. But then my view of California is mostly of sunny beaches and Giant Redwoods.

    Is this something normal or is it an El Nino effect?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    The biggest change Sunak needs is for inflation to keep falling. The less voters are worried about cost of living the less they will feel a need to change government, some tax cuts too once that is done would also help swing undecideds back to the Tories

    "inflation falls" does not mean "cheaper prices"; in the current context it means "prices that have already gone up a lot more than wages and which are still going up".
    As long as inheritances rise faster than inflation, then true Tories shall be protected.
  • “I’ve been trying to pin it down but there is something lacking in his approach and how it comes out on TV.”

    Exactly the same here. However, I think a PB poster (sorry, can’t locate it now) from a thread earlier in week hit the nail on the head by saying that Sunak comes over as being ‘whiny’. Never a good sound for a leader.
  • What saves Sunak is an Event, dear boy.

    I don't know what sort of Event, but it would have to be a jolly big one. And probably not the one referenced in the Mitchell and Webb "Remain Indoors" sketches.

    But if Rishi goes into the election having to persuade people, it's just not going to work, unless he is using this holiday to have a Complete Personality Transplant operation.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,364

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    The biggest change Sunak needs is for inflation to keep falling. The less voters are worried about cost of living the less they will feel a need to change government, some tax cuts too once that is done would also help swing undecideds back to the Tories

    "inflation falls" does not mean "cheaper prices"; in the current context it means "prices that have already gone up a lot more than wages and which are still going up".
    As long as inheritances rise faster than inflation, then true Tories shall be protected.
    Which can only be done by abolishing IHT, for the sort of voter who doesn't already have a family trust sewn up. As well as re-inflating the housing market, too.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    The biggest change Sunak needs is for inflation to keep falling. The less voters are worried about cost of living the less they will feel a need to change government, some tax cuts too once that is done would also help swing undecideds back to the Tories

    "inflation falls" does not mean "cheaper prices"; in the current context it means "prices that have already gone up a lot more than wages and which are still going up".
    Very good point. If inflation falls to 5% Sunak will say 'my promise has been delivered' while Joe Public is still seeing everything costing more than it did last year.
  • Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    .

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    @MattW is the acknowledged expert on cycling infrastructure. I’m sure his predictions that cycling can be expected to triple in coming years is right.

    I’m hopeful about Birmingham and Nottingham too.

    I remember when I posted that it was a shame that cities outside London lacked cyclehire schemes and I was denounced as a cappuccino supping metro elitist.

    A small, but very useful scheme - Brompton offer cycle hire

    https://bromptonhire.com/our-locations/

    A number are next to rail/tube stations.

    I'm seeing on the trains an increasing number of people who've obviously hired one (the colour scheme is quiet, but noticeable) for a day out - train out to somewhere in the country side, unfold and ride.

    For those who don't know them, Brompton folding bikes are allowed on all trains because they are so compact. They are, in addition, very rideable, compared to other small wheel bikes.
    Bromptons are very cool, as well as a British manufacturing success story.
    I have a single speed titanium one with flat bars because that's just how I roll.

    They are not particularly 'rideable' because of a very short mechanical trail distance of 27mm. A normal bicycle has 40-65mm and therefore much stronger castering action. I have ridden mine over 60km in one ride though.
    What's the verdict on cargo ebikes? I'm tempted by something like a Tern or the cheaper Radwagon. Where we live, it'd make sense for me, rather than use the Transporter for a 10 minute drive to town. It'd be a crime to use my hardtail with panniers.
    Terns are I think well-thought of and robust, if somewhat expensive at £3-4k+. ie about 12-18 months of running costs for a small 2nd car.

    You can find E-Cargo bikes from about £1500, or secondhand, and they hold their value well.

    There are also good e-cargo-trikes.

    Some reviews:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-electric-cargo-bikes
    Some reviews of budget ones:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-e-cargo-bikes-under-3000-affordable-electric-bikes-to-do-the-job-of

    I bought my car for £3,000, and it can carry a family of five and all of their luggage for a fortnight away. Plus the dog.

    And the bike won’t go 80mph, do. 0-60 in six seconds, or make V8 noises. ULEZ compliant as well.
    (It’s a later model of this)
    [Picture of dog required for scale]
    Okay, nicked off the internet.
    (This is a later model of car)
    [Scale now obtained. Thank you, @Sandpit]
    As I always say, it's not a competition.

    What is your annual running cost, btw? *innocent face*
    Okay, I’ll bite.

    I’ve previously lived in places where work and home were 400m apart, and home was 100m from the station. Brilliant. No need for a car, take a taxi or rent one when required.

    Right now, I live 25km from work, and the journey is pretty much impossible by anything other than car. It’s 20m in the car, or nearly 2h by public transport (walk, bus, train, train, walk, boat, walk).

    The problem I have, is trying to fit one-size-fits-all solutions into a diverse population. People will change jobs, and transport methods that worked with old job no longer work with new job. Not just jobs either, people have regular appointments with schools, shops, social events, that can change over time.

    Having a car is a sunk cost; not just for the car, but for insurance, VED, servicing etc. Owning a house is an even bigger sunk cost; it’s often easier to accept an hour’s commute than to commit to spending five figures on moving house, even assuming that a similar house near new job can be purchased for similar money to the one you have already.

    Once you have a car the marginal cost of a single extra journey is tiny, compared to the cost of a bus or train journey for more than one person. If you’re on your own, the cost is about the same, but the difference in time and exposure to the weather is significantly different.

    The impression given by those wanting to increase cycling, is that it starts with a dislike of cars. Now, there’s silly drivers and silly cyclists out there, and the cyclists are in the more vulnerable position if there’s a collision between the two. I can understand that it makes sense to separate the traffic where possible, but most of the suggestions start with reducing the space available for cars, rather than first increasing the space for other transport methods and letting the change happen organically.

    Many people have no choice but to drive, they might have a complex schedule that involves getting the kids to school, going to work, running errands for their employer, picking up kids and going to activities etc, or they might just be like me, who’d rather spend 40m a day driving than 4h on public transport. I do occasionally take the public transport to work, if we went for beers afterwards and I took a taxi home.

    The personal motor car is possibly the greatest invention of the 20th century, in terms of the freedom it gives people to move around, to seek work, to better themselves, to spend more time with those they love.

    It comes across that there’s a concerted effort to regress on personal car ownership, for a wide range of different ideological positions. Whether it’s the cycling lobby, the bus lobby, the train lobby, the Uber lobby, the car-as-a-service lobby, or the environmental lobby, is almost irrelevant; the aim is to leave fewer people with the option to just jump in their own car and enjoy the freedom of the road.
    I agree with your entire post - just swap out "car" for "bicycle".

    The key reason that people don't cycle in the UK is that they are scared of getting hit by a car. The "freedom" to cycle around has been eroded by a constant threat of injury or death.

    And car ownership is closely related to wealth. The poor have no choice but to cycle, walk or use public transport. What of their "freedom"?

    Cars are late to this game. People were walking, and then cycling, around our towns and cities long before motorists came along. In the 1950s there was 8x as much cycling as there is now.
    For the vast majority of people, having their own car was massive progress over bikes and horses. Owning a car was aspirational, people with cars are mobile and can go from any major city to another within a day, unbeholden to anyone except themselves.

    I’m all in favour of better roads for those who want to cycle, but most of the cycling campaigners start from the premise that less road should be given over to cars, and work backwards from there.
    Fewer drivers = more road.
    No, more road = more road.

    90% of transportation miles are taken by drivers and that is consistent in pretty much all countries across Europe. This includes cyclists and public transportation.

    You can't induce demand much beyond 90%. And even if cycling in this country were to double and all of those extra cycling miles were removed from driving miles, you'd be removing less than 1% of cars from the road. Which would be entirely negated by population growth being over 1% per annum.
    I've been meaning to ask you.
    Do you like cars?
    Guessing this is sarcasm?

    Of course I do, they're great. Convenient, practical, efficient and they work. They're the best and most efficient form of transportation that exists.

    I also like bikes, they're fun recreationally too.

    The thing is that bikes are not an alternative to cars, in the same way as chocolate cake is not an alternative to a balanced diet.

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.
    Not for 83% of us :)

    More importantly, about 1 in 5 households in Hillingdon (and Havering) manage without any car or van at all. Even in Rishi's Richmondshire, it's 1 in 8.

    So, no- cars are not required. They might be useful, but they're not required. "I want" isn't the same as "I need", as granny used to say.
    Which is bollocks, I lived in slough almost 40 years....in all that time I had precisely 2 jobs in slough, I worked in wantage,epsom,reading,farnborough apart from that. Public transport was only viable for reading. None of those places was cyclable to. Just because you live in an urban area does not mean you will find a job in that urban area
    Here are the figures;

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/choropleth/housing/number-of-cars-or-vans/number-of-cars-3a/no-cars-or-vans-in-household?lad=E06000039

    20 percent of households in Slough.
    Sorry what point are you trying to make here? 80% of slough needs a car?
    No. What I am saying is that Bart's claim,

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.

    is demonstrably untrue. Plenty of functioning adults manage their lives perfectly well without driving a car, ever. On the latest stats, about 1 in 4 adults in England don't have a driving licence.

    That's not the case for everyone, sure. I'm not arguing for no cars at all anywhere, and you'd have to get pretty fringe to get that view.

    What I do think is that cars can be excellent servants, but appalling masters. If we try to put sufficient road and parking space in urban areas, we cut them in pieces and often kill the things that make them good places to live. By making roads less safe and public transport less viable, we (and this includes me) make life demonstrably worse for the 1 in 4 adults who don't drive and the young people who struggle to be independently mobile.

    And the evidence is that, if you create safe networks for walking and cycling, properly away from motorised traffic, people do use them as a serious way of getting bits of their daily business done. Which is good for everyone.
    Plenty of people get about by being passengers in cars yes, or relying upon others who drive cars in order to service their needs instead.

    Very few in modern society have nothing to do with cars, whether it be via being a passenger in one (inc taxis), or getting their post delivered, or parcels delivered, or going to shops which have cars, vans and trucks delivering their supplies.

    Even if you don't drive, you almost certainly have people who are driving assisting you in the way you live on an daily basis. That's how modern society exists and it is all the better for it.

    The evidence is that if you have safe networks for walking and cycling then a miniscule percentage of daily miles/km travelled is done that way, which is absolutely fine, but cars remain the overwhelming majority of transportation.

    Even in tiny Netherlands, the most bike-friendly country in the world, bikes account for single-digit percentage of total km travelled while cars make up over 75%.

    If you want to ride a bike a short distance then good luck to you, but unless you want to go back to 18th century standards of living, we need cars in the real world.

    Er. 'Car' usually means 'private car'. Not delivery van, bus, minibus ... which is sort of the entire theme of all your posts as road warrior in backless gloves in his Rover 2000.
    Actually vans, buses, minibuses, etc are simply different types of cars. And if you order off Amazon or other delivery suppliers then a significant portion of those deliveries are made by someone else's private car anyway. Plus if we're talking about investment in roads, or closing roads, then absolutely all of those vehicles need roads every bit as much as private cars do.

    I've never driven a Rover, nor are my posts remotely road warrior unless you're an absolutely crazy anti-car fanatic - which this site seems to have a completely disproportionate amount of.

    I've been consistently pro opening new roads for improving cycling and other demands which is win/win.

    What I'm against is cutting capacity for over 90% of our transportation without any alternative. Build roads and you can add better cycling and walking capacity absolutely.
    Fact remains, private cars are hopelssly selfish and consume vast amounts of resources compared to communal vehicles of various sorts. Even an Amazon delivery car is dozens of times better than driving to the local bookshop or W H Smiths.
    Load of crap. Private cars consume minimal amounts of resources per mile travelled. They're wonderfully efficient.

    Gram for gram my bike is a less efficient use of resources than my car.
    Remarkable economic and engineering analysis. If it were true ...

    Bujt it's not, because you have the rest of us pay much of the cost.
    It is true. And you haven't paid a single penny towards my vehicle, quite the opposite, my taxes fund so much more than my driving.

    My car weighs approximately 1220 kg. It has done just under 100k miles since I bought it new. I should pass the 100k mark this year.

    So looking at the car weight per mile that is about 82 miles per kg.

    But most of the time I have passengers in the vehicle. 2, 3 and sometimes 4. So let's estimate 250k total passenger miles travelled. That'd mean 205 passenger miles per kg of car weight. And that's disregarding the shopping etc transported too.

    My bike weighs about 10kg and I won't have done more than double digit miles in it. And I've never carried any passengers on my bike.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,140
    HYUFD said:

    It seems the Tories have scheduled this early part of the holiday season as one when the PM can be doing things each day...

    ...and next, he's off on a holiday to California, just like everyone does at this time of cost of living crisis year.

    If I was Sunak I would have taken my summer holiday in Blackpool or Cornwall certainly, I am sure he will have a great time in California but it is not great PR with an election next year and cost of living still an issue.

    Voters didn't begrudge Blair his Tuscan and Caribbean holidays as the economy was still growing strongly and inflation was low, however when the economy is less good voters don't like PMs in the sun. Callaghan's 'crisis what crisis' remark after returning from holiday in Guadeloupe wasn't rewarded by the voters in 1979 given the high inflation and strikes at the time
    "Crisis what crisis" was a Sun headline, not a Callaghan Quote.

    Sunak holidaying in his Santa Monica house really does add to the impression of the super rich lifestyle of a Non-Dom spouse.



  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,364

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    The biggest change Sunak needs is for inflation to keep falling. The less voters are worried about cost of living the less they will feel a need to change government, some tax cuts too once that is done would also help swing undecideds back to the Tories

    "inflation falls" does not mean "cheaper prices"; in the current context it means "prices that have already gone up a lot more than wages and which are still going up".
    Very good point. If inflation falls to 5% Sunak will say 'my promise has been delivered' while Joe Public is still seeing everything costing more than it did last year.
    There's a great deal of deliberate obfuscation of the first and second order derivatives of the price variablewith the price variable itself in Toryspeak at the moment. In fact there has been a great deal for the last year or so since inflation became even more of an issue than usual. But, ass you say, it risks being counterproductive.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,937

    HYUFD said:

    The biggest change Sunak needs is for inflation to keep falling. The less voters are worried about cost of living the less they will feel a need to change government, some tax cuts too once that is done would also help swing undecideds back to the Tories

    I don't think so. Major had more or less got the economy back on track by 1997 but the voters had already decided and thus the Tories were screwed. Same this time.

    For nothing now can ever come to any good with this Conservative administration.
    Major was facing Blair who is both more charismatic than Starmer and even more centrist. Major also had the legacy of Black Wednesday.

    1992 was 18 years into Tory government too, 2024 will be only 14 years into Tory government ie closer to the 13 years of 1992 when Major beat Kinnock against the odds when most polls had Labour ahead
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,352
    Pro_Rata said:

    My Rutherglen & Hamilton West post on whether there is anything unusual to be gleaned from the Local Elections.

    So my normal approach would be to base on the LE22 round and then see if there is any forward facing data since then

    Rutherglen & Hamilton West LE22 gave:
    SNP 39.2 (-5.0 on GE19)
    Lab 34.1 (-0.4)
    Con 11.0 (-4.0)
    LD 11.0 (+5.8)
    Others (mainly Green) 4.6 (+3.4)

    To my eyes a lot of the movement here is that of an STV election vs an FPTP election, a lot of that lost SNP vote is hidden in Others and likely to return as at this point.

    So, LE22 is not too far away from GE19.

    In terms of actual election swings since then, there have been 5 local by-elections in Scotland this year, 3 with Labour as the challengers. Swings away from the SNP on the first vote have been steady and consistent:

    In Stirling SNP to Con challenger swing was 5.5%
    In Edinburgh SNP to LD swing was 6%
    In Aberdeen SNP to Lab was 9%
    In the Lanarkshires (though neither in this constituency) SNP to Lab were 11 and 13.5% respectively.

    I don't know if it's the somewhat evened out political environment, large multi member wards, full slates of candidates, STV or what, but Scottish local elections and by elections, outside the Independent lands at least, show little of the madness that is often on show in England. Whenever I look things seem smooth, indicative and fairly well aligned with the polls.

    If a 10ish% swing to Labour does not materialize, I think that will reflect back something hitherto unknown about the Scottish attitudes to GE24 and would be far more telling than Uxbridge ever was. Labour need the boring result that every indicator suggests will happen. The chance of that is non-zero, this will be the first politician sent to London from Scotland since Airdrie and Shotts returned Anum Qaisar in sunnier SNP days.



    Curse of the long post / new thread
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,364

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    .

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    @MattW is the acknowledged expert on cycling infrastructure. I’m sure his predictions that cycling can be expected to triple in coming years is right.

    I’m hopeful about Birmingham and Nottingham too.

    I remember when I posted that it was a shame that cities outside London lacked cyclehire schemes and I was denounced as a cappuccino supping metro elitist.

    A small, but very useful scheme - Brompton offer cycle hire

    https://bromptonhire.com/our-locations/

    A number are next to rail/tube stations.

    I'm seeing on the trains an increasing number of people who've obviously hired one (the colour scheme is quiet, but noticeable) for a day out - train out to somewhere in the country side, unfold and ride.

    For those who don't know them, Brompton folding bikes are allowed on all trains because they are so compact. They are, in addition, very rideable, compared to other small wheel bikes.
    Bromptons are very cool, as well as a British manufacturing success story.
    I have a single speed titanium one with flat bars because that's just how I roll.

    They are not particularly 'rideable' because of a very short mechanical trail distance of 27mm. A normal bicycle has 40-65mm and therefore much stronger castering action. I have ridden mine over 60km in one ride though.
    What's the verdict on cargo ebikes? I'm tempted by something like a Tern or the cheaper Radwagon. Where we live, it'd make sense for me, rather than use the Transporter for a 10 minute drive to town. It'd be a crime to use my hardtail with panniers.
    Terns are I think well-thought of and robust, if somewhat expensive at £3-4k+. ie about 12-18 months of running costs for a small 2nd car.

    You can find E-Cargo bikes from about £1500, or secondhand, and they hold their value well.

    There are also good e-cargo-trikes.

    Some reviews:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-electric-cargo-bikes
    Some reviews of budget ones:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-e-cargo-bikes-under-3000-affordable-electric-bikes-to-do-the-job-of

    I bought my car for £3,000, and it can carry a family of five and all of their luggage for a fortnight away. Plus the dog.

    And the bike won’t go 80mph, do. 0-60 in six seconds, or make V8 noises. ULEZ compliant as well.
    (It’s a later model of this)
    [Picture of dog required for scale]
    Okay, nicked off the internet.
    (This is a later model of car)
    [Scale now obtained. Thank you, @Sandpit]
    As I always say, it's not a competition.

    What is your annual running cost, btw? *innocent face*
    Okay, I’ll bite.

    I’ve previously lived in places where work and home were 400m apart, and home was 100m from the station. Brilliant. No need for a car, take a taxi or rent one when required.

    Right now, I live 25km from work, and the journey is pretty much impossible by anything other than car. It’s 20m in the car, or nearly 2h by public transport (walk, bus, train, train, walk, boat, walk).

    The problem I have, is trying to fit one-size-fits-all solutions into a diverse population. People will change jobs, and transport methods that worked with old job no longer work with new job. Not just jobs either, people have regular appointments with schools, shops, social events, that can change over time.

    Having a car is a sunk cost; not just for the car, but for insurance, VED, servicing etc. Owning a house is an even bigger sunk cost; it’s often easier to accept an hour’s commute than to commit to spending five figures on moving house, even assuming that a similar house near new job can be purchased for similar money to the one you have already.

    Once you have a car the marginal cost of a single extra journey is tiny, compared to the cost of a bus or train journey for more than one person. If you’re on your own, the cost is about the same, but the difference in time and exposure to the weather is significantly different.

    The impression given by those wanting to increase cycling, is that it starts with a dislike of cars. Now, there’s silly drivers and silly cyclists out there, and the cyclists are in the more vulnerable position if there’s a collision between the two. I can understand that it makes sense to separate the traffic where possible, but most of the suggestions start with reducing the space available for cars, rather than first increasing the space for other transport methods and letting the change happen organically.

    Many people have no choice but to drive, they might have a complex schedule that involves getting the kids to school, going to work, running errands for their employer, picking up kids and going to activities etc, or they might just be like me, who’d rather spend 40m a day driving than 4h on public transport. I do occasionally take the public transport to work, if we went for beers afterwards and I took a taxi home.

    The personal motor car is possibly the greatest invention of the 20th century, in terms of the freedom it gives people to move around, to seek work, to better themselves, to spend more time with those they love.

    It comes across that there’s a concerted effort to regress on personal car ownership, for a wide range of different ideological positions. Whether it’s the cycling lobby, the bus lobby, the train lobby, the Uber lobby, the car-as-a-service lobby, or the environmental lobby, is almost irrelevant; the aim is to leave fewer people with the option to just jump in their own car and enjoy the freedom of the road.
    I agree with your entire post - just swap out "car" for "bicycle".

    The key reason that people don't cycle in the UK is that they are scared of getting hit by a car. The "freedom" to cycle around has been eroded by a constant threat of injury or death.

    And car ownership is closely related to wealth. The poor have no choice but to cycle, walk or use public transport. What of their "freedom"?

    Cars are late to this game. People were walking, and then cycling, around our towns and cities long before motorists came along. In the 1950s there was 8x as much cycling as there is now.
    For the vast majority of people, having their own car was massive progress over bikes and horses. Owning a car was aspirational, people with cars are mobile and can go from any major city to another within a day, unbeholden to anyone except themselves.

    I’m all in favour of better roads for those who want to cycle, but most of the cycling campaigners start from the premise that less road should be given over to cars, and work backwards from there.
    Fewer drivers = more road.
    No, more road = more road.

    90% of transportation miles are taken by drivers and that is consistent in pretty much all countries across Europe. This includes cyclists and public transportation.

    You can't induce demand much beyond 90%. And even if cycling in this country were to double and all of those extra cycling miles were removed from driving miles, you'd be removing less than 1% of cars from the road. Which would be entirely negated by population growth being over 1% per annum.
    I've been meaning to ask you.
    Do you like cars?
    Guessing this is sarcasm?

    Of course I do, they're great. Convenient, practical, efficient and they work. They're the best and most efficient form of transportation that exists.

    I also like bikes, they're fun recreationally too.

    The thing is that bikes are not an alternative to cars, in the same way as chocolate cake is not an alternative to a balanced diet.

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.
    Not for 83% of us :)

    More importantly, about 1 in 5 households in Hillingdon (and Havering) manage without any car or van at all. Even in Rishi's Richmondshire, it's 1 in 8.

    So, no- cars are not required. They might be useful, but they're not required. "I want" isn't the same as "I need", as granny used to say.
    Which is bollocks, I lived in slough almost 40 years....in all that time I had precisely 2 jobs in slough, I worked in wantage,epsom,reading,farnborough apart from that. Public transport was only viable for reading. None of those places was cyclable to. Just because you live in an urban area does not mean you will find a job in that urban area
    Here are the figures;

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/choropleth/housing/number-of-cars-or-vans/number-of-cars-3a/no-cars-or-vans-in-household?lad=E06000039

    20 percent of households in Slough.
    Sorry what point are you trying to make here? 80% of slough needs a car?
    No. What I am saying is that Bart's claim,

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.

    is demonstrably untrue. Plenty of functioning adults manage their lives perfectly well without driving a car, ever. On the latest stats, about 1 in 4 adults in England don't have a driving licence.

    That's not the case for everyone, sure. I'm not arguing for no cars at all anywhere, and you'd have to get pretty fringe to get that view.

    What I do think is that cars can be excellent servants, but appalling masters. If we try to put sufficient road and parking space in urban areas, we cut them in pieces and often kill the things that make them good places to live. By making roads less safe and public transport less viable, we (and this includes me) make life demonstrably worse for the 1 in 4 adults who don't drive and the young people who struggle to be independently mobile.

    And the evidence is that, if you create safe networks for walking and cycling, properly away from motorised traffic, people do use them as a serious way of getting bits of their daily business done. Which is good for everyone.
    Plenty of people get about by being passengers in cars yes, or relying upon others who drive cars in order to service their needs instead.

    Very few in modern society have nothing to do with cars, whether it be via being a passenger in one (inc taxis), or getting their post delivered, or parcels delivered, or going to shops which have cars, vans and trucks delivering their supplies.

    Even if you don't drive, you almost certainly have people who are driving assisting you in the way you live on an daily basis. That's how modern society exists and it is all the better for it.

    The evidence is that if you have safe networks for walking and cycling then a miniscule percentage of daily miles/km travelled is done that way, which is absolutely fine, but cars remain the overwhelming majority of transportation.

    Even in tiny Netherlands, the most bike-friendly country in the world, bikes account for single-digit percentage of total km travelled while cars make up over 75%.

    If you want to ride a bike a short distance then good luck to you, but unless you want to go back to 18th century standards of living, we need cars in the real world.

    Er. 'Car' usually means 'private car'. Not delivery van, bus, minibus ... which is sort of the entire theme of all your posts as road warrior in backless gloves in his Rover 2000.
    Actually vans, buses, minibuses, etc are simply different types of cars. And if you order off Amazon or other delivery suppliers then a significant portion of those deliveries are made by someone else's private car anyway. Plus if we're talking about investment in roads, or closing roads, then absolutely all of those vehicles need roads every bit as much as private cars do.

    I've never driven a Rover, nor are my posts remotely road warrior unless you're an absolutely crazy anti-car fanatic - which this site seems to have a completely disproportionate amount of.

    I've been consistently pro opening new roads for improving cycling and other demands which is win/win.

    What I'm against is cutting capacity for over 90% of our transportation without any alternative. Build roads and you can add better cycling and walking capacity absolutely.
    Fact remains, private cars are hopelssly selfish and consume vast amounts of resources compared to communal vehicles of various sorts. Even an Amazon delivery car is dozens of times better than driving to the local bookshop or W H Smiths.
    Load of crap. Private cars consume minimal amounts of resources per mile travelled. They're wonderfully efficient.

    Gram for gram my bike is a less efficient use of resources than my car.
    Remarkable economic and engineering analysis. If it were true ...

    Bujt it's not, because you have the rest of us pay much of the cost.
    It is true. And you haven't paid a single penny towards my vehicle, quite the opposite, my taxes fund so much more than my driving.

    My car weighs approximately 1220 kg. It has done just under 100k miles since I bought it new. I should pass the 100k mark this year.

    So looking at the car weight per mile that is about 82 miles per kg.

    But most of the time I have passengers in the vehicle. 2, 3 and sometimes 4. So let's estimate 250k total passenger miles travelled. That'd mean 205 passenger miles per kg of car weight. And that's disregarding the shopping etc transported too.

    My bike weighs about 10kg and I won't have done more than double digit miles in it. And I've never carried any passengers on my bike.
    On the contrary, you would be paying most of those taxes anyway with or withotu a car. Those taxes and charges directly attributable to having a car don't pay your way. And I am therefore certainly subsidising you as I don't have a car.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    The biggest change Sunak needs is for inflation to keep falling. The less voters are worried about cost of living the less they will feel a need to change government, some tax cuts too once that is done would also help swing undecideds back to the Tories

    "inflation falls" does not mean "cheaper prices"; in the current context it means "prices that have already gone up a lot more than wages and which are still going up".
    Very good point. If inflation falls to 5% Sunak will say 'my promise has been delivered' while Joe Public is still seeing everything costing more than it did last year.
    There's a great deal of deliberate obfuscation of the first and second order derivatives of the price variablewith the price variable itself in Toryspeak at the moment. In fact there has been a great deal for the last year or so since inflation became even more of an issue than usual. But, ass you say, it risks being counterproductive.
    Similarly with the deliberate use of 'debt' when they (presumably*) mean deficit, although public deficit/debt is less in voters' faces than inflation.

    (*Because no way is debt going to reduce in the lifetime of this parliament.)
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    Sunak is a nasty little man who pretended to be the anti Johnson . I’d never vote Tory but after the pathological liar I did feel some relief when Sunak took over . Now I can’t stand the sight of him .
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,771
    Sunak will be hoping for a Black Swan while hiding White Elephants such as HS2
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,644

    geoffw said: "Polls - a bit like the (normal) weather in California: same as yesterday"

    I assume this is what you were referring to: 'New snowfall across California today, with Hagan'S Meadow receiving up to 10” of new snowfall, raising snowpack levels up to 9”.'
    source: https://snoflo.org/snow/report/california/

    Mammoth, the largest single mountain ski resort in the US, is STILL OPEN. They are still skiing there, and will continue through until next week. They had such insane amounts of snow this year that they've kept the season open until August.

    With that said... my business is in Arizona, and there it is HOT, HOT, HOT.
  • Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    .

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    @MattW is the acknowledged expert on cycling infrastructure. I’m sure his predictions that cycling can be expected to triple in coming years is right.

    I’m hopeful about Birmingham and Nottingham too.

    I remember when I posted that it was a shame that cities outside London lacked cyclehire schemes and I was denounced as a cappuccino supping metro elitist.

    A small, but very useful scheme - Brompton offer cycle hire

    https://bromptonhire.com/our-locations/

    A number are next to rail/tube stations.

    I'm seeing on the trains an increasing number of people who've obviously hired one (the colour scheme is quiet, but noticeable) for a day out - train out to somewhere in the country side, unfold and ride.

    For those who don't know them, Brompton folding bikes are allowed on all trains because they are so compact. They are, in addition, very rideable, compared to other small wheel bikes.
    Bromptons are very cool, as well as a British manufacturing success story.
    I have a single speed titanium one with flat bars because that's just how I roll.

    They are not particularly 'rideable' because of a very short mechanical trail distance of 27mm. A normal bicycle has 40-65mm and therefore much stronger castering action. I have ridden mine over 60km in one ride though.
    What's the verdict on cargo ebikes? I'm tempted by something like a Tern or the cheaper Radwagon. Where we live, it'd make sense for me, rather than use the Transporter for a 10 minute drive to town. It'd be a crime to use my hardtail with panniers.
    Terns are I think well-thought of and robust, if somewhat expensive at £3-4k+. ie about 12-18 months of running costs for a small 2nd car.

    You can find E-Cargo bikes from about £1500, or secondhand, and they hold their value well.

    There are also good e-cargo-trikes.

    Some reviews:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-electric-cargo-bikes
    Some reviews of budget ones:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-e-cargo-bikes-under-3000-affordable-electric-bikes-to-do-the-job-of

    I bought my car for £3,000, and it can carry a family of five and all of their luggage for a fortnight away. Plus the dog.

    And the bike won’t go 80mph, do. 0-60 in six seconds, or make V8 noises. ULEZ compliant as well.
    (It’s a later model of this)
    [Picture of dog required for scale]
    Okay, nicked off the internet.
    (This is a later model of car)
    [Scale now obtained. Thank you, @Sandpit]
    As I always say, it's not a competition.

    What is your annual running cost, btw? *innocent face*
    Okay, I’ll bite.

    I’ve previously lived in places where work and home were 400m apart, and home was 100m from the station. Brilliant. No need for a car, take a taxi or rent one when required.

    Right now, I live 25km from work, and the journey is pretty much impossible by anything other than car. It’s 20m in the car, or nearly 2h by public transport (walk, bus, train, train, walk, boat, walk).

    The problem I have, is trying to fit one-size-fits-all solutions into a diverse population. People will change jobs, and transport methods that worked with old job no longer work with new job. Not just jobs either, people have regular appointments with schools, shops, social events, that can change over time.

    Having a car is a sunk cost; not just for the car, but for insurance, VED, servicing etc. Owning a house is an even bigger sunk cost; it’s often easier to accept an hour’s commute than to commit to spending five figures on moving house, even assuming that a similar house near new job can be purchased for similar money to the one you have already.

    Once you have a car the marginal cost of a single extra journey is tiny, compared to the cost of a bus or train journey for more than one person. If you’re on your own, the cost is about the same, but the difference in time and exposure to the weather is significantly different.

    The impression given by those wanting to increase cycling, is that it starts with a dislike of cars. Now, there’s silly drivers and silly cyclists out there, and the cyclists are in the more vulnerable position if there’s a collision between the two. I can understand that it makes sense to separate the traffic where possible, but most of the suggestions start with reducing the space available for cars, rather than first increasing the space for other transport methods and letting the change happen organically.

    Many people have no choice but to drive, they might have a complex schedule that involves getting the kids to school, going to work, running errands for their employer, picking up kids and going to activities etc, or they might just be like me, who’d rather spend 40m a day driving than 4h on public transport. I do occasionally take the public transport to work, if we went for beers afterwards and I took a taxi home.

    The personal motor car is possibly the greatest invention of the 20th century, in terms of the freedom it gives people to move around, to seek work, to better themselves, to spend more time with those they love.

    It comes across that there’s a concerted effort to regress on personal car ownership, for a wide range of different ideological positions. Whether it’s the cycling lobby, the bus lobby, the train lobby, the Uber lobby, the car-as-a-service lobby, or the environmental lobby, is almost irrelevant; the aim is to leave fewer people with the option to just jump in their own car and enjoy the freedom of the road.
    I agree with your entire post - just swap out "car" for "bicycle".

    The key reason that people don't cycle in the UK is that they are scared of getting hit by a car. The "freedom" to cycle around has been eroded by a constant threat of injury or death.

    And car ownership is closely related to wealth. The poor have no choice but to cycle, walk or use public transport. What of their "freedom"?

    Cars are late to this game. People were walking, and then cycling, around our towns and cities long before motorists came along. In the 1950s there was 8x as much cycling as there is now.
    For the vast majority of people, having their own car was massive progress over bikes and horses. Owning a car was aspirational, people with cars are mobile and can go from any major city to another within a day, unbeholden to anyone except themselves.

    I’m all in favour of better roads for those who want to cycle, but most of the cycling campaigners start from the premise that less road should be given over to cars, and work backwards from there.
    Fewer drivers = more road.
    No, more road = more road.

    90% of transportation miles are taken by drivers and that is consistent in pretty much all countries across Europe. This includes cyclists and public transportation.

    You can't induce demand much beyond 90%. And even if cycling in this country were to double and all of those extra cycling miles were removed from driving miles, you'd be removing less than 1% of cars from the road. Which would be entirely negated by population growth being over 1% per annum.
    I've been meaning to ask you.
    Do you like cars?
    Guessing this is sarcasm?

    Of course I do, they're great. Convenient, practical, efficient and they work. They're the best and most efficient form of transportation that exists.

    I also like bikes, they're fun recreationally too.

    The thing is that bikes are not an alternative to cars, in the same way as chocolate cake is not an alternative to a balanced diet.

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.
    Not for 83% of us :)

    More importantly, about 1 in 5 households in Hillingdon (and Havering) manage without any car or van at all. Even in Rishi's Richmondshire, it's 1 in 8.

    So, no- cars are not required. They might be useful, but they're not required. "I want" isn't the same as "I need", as granny used to say.
    Which is bollocks, I lived in slough almost 40 years....in all that time I had precisely 2 jobs in slough, I worked in wantage,epsom,reading,farnborough apart from that. Public transport was only viable for reading. None of those places was cyclable to. Just because you live in an urban area does not mean you will find a job in that urban area
    Here are the figures;

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/choropleth/housing/number-of-cars-or-vans/number-of-cars-3a/no-cars-or-vans-in-household?lad=E06000039

    20 percent of households in Slough.
    Sorry what point are you trying to make here? 80% of slough needs a car?
    No. What I am saying is that Bart's claim,

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.

    is demonstrably untrue. Plenty of functioning adults manage their lives perfectly well without driving a car, ever. On the latest stats, about 1 in 4 adults in England don't have a driving licence.

    That's not the case for everyone, sure. I'm not arguing for no cars at all anywhere, and you'd have to get pretty fringe to get that view.

    What I do think is that cars can be excellent servants, but appalling masters. If we try to put sufficient road and parking space in urban areas, we cut them in pieces and often kill the things that make them good places to live. By making roads less safe and public transport less viable, we (and this includes me) make life demonstrably worse for the 1 in 4 adults who don't drive and the young people who struggle to be independently mobile.

    And the evidence is that, if you create safe networks for walking and cycling, properly away from motorised traffic, people do use them as a serious way of getting bits of their daily business done. Which is good for everyone.
    Plenty of people get about by being passengers in cars yes, or relying upon others who drive cars in order to service their needs instead.

    Very few in modern society have nothing to do with cars, whether it be via being a passenger in one (inc taxis), or getting their post delivered, or parcels delivered, or going to shops which have cars, vans and trucks delivering their supplies.

    Even if you don't drive, you almost certainly have people who are driving assisting you in the way you live on an daily basis. That's how modern society exists and it is all the better for it.

    The evidence is that if you have safe networks for walking and cycling then a miniscule percentage of daily miles/km travelled is done that way, which is absolutely fine, but cars remain the overwhelming majority of transportation.

    Even in tiny Netherlands, the most bike-friendly country in the world, bikes account for single-digit percentage of total km travelled while cars make up over 75%.

    If you want to ride a bike a short distance then good luck to you, but unless you want to go back to 18th century standards of living, we need cars in the real world.

    Er. 'Car' usually means 'private car'. Not delivery van, bus, minibus ... which is sort of the entire theme of all your posts as road warrior in backless gloves in his Rover 2000.
    Actually vans, buses, minibuses, etc are simply different types of cars. And if you order off Amazon or other delivery suppliers then a significant portion of those deliveries are made by someone else's private car anyway. Plus if we're talking about investment in roads, or closing roads, then absolutely all of those vehicles need roads every bit as much as private cars do.

    I've never driven a Rover, nor are my posts remotely road warrior unless you're an absolutely crazy anti-car fanatic - which this site seems to have a completely disproportionate amount of.

    I've been consistently pro opening new roads for improving cycling and other demands which is win/win.

    What I'm against is cutting capacity for over 90% of our transportation without any alternative. Build roads and you can add better cycling and walking capacity absolutely.
    Fact remains, private cars are hopelssly selfish and consume vast amounts of resources compared to communal vehicles of various sorts. Even an Amazon delivery car is dozens of times better than driving to the local bookshop or W H Smiths.
    Load of crap. Private cars consume minimal amounts of resources per mile travelled. They're wonderfully efficient.

    Gram for gram my bike is a less efficient use of resources than my car.
    Remarkable economic and engineering analysis. If it were true ...

    Bujt it's not, because you have the rest of us pay much of the cost.
    It is true. And you haven't paid a single penny towards my vehicle, quite the opposite, my taxes fund so much more than my driving.

    My car weighs approximately 1220 kg. It has done just under 100k miles since I bought it new. I should pass the 100k mark this year.

    So looking at the car weight per mile that is about 82 miles per kg.

    But most of the time I have passengers in the vehicle. 2, 3 and sometimes 4. So let's estimate 250k total passenger miles travelled. That'd mean 205 passenger miles per kg of car weight. And that's disregarding the shopping etc transported too.

    My bike weighs about 10kg and I won't have done more than double digit miles in it. And I've never carried any passengers on my bike.
    On the contrary, you would be paying most of those taxes anyway with or withotu a car. Those taxes and charges directly attributable to having a car don't pay your way. And I am therefore certainly subsidising you as I don't have a car.
    What the hell are you talking about? If you don't have a car then I am massively subsidising you. You should be grateful.

    The billions of profit that HMRC gets from taxes on drivers make us the golden geese. Hopefully with the switchover from fuel to electricity this will end and you can start paying your share, but I don't expect it and won't hold my breath.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    It seems the Tories have scheduled this early part of the holiday season as one when the PM can be doing things each day...

    ...and next, he's off on a holiday to California, just like everyone does at this time of cost of living crisis year.

    If I was Sunak I would have taken my summer holiday in Blackpool or Cornwall certainly, I am sure he will have a great time in California but it is not great PR with an election next year and cost of living still an issue.

    Voters didn't begrudge Blair his Tuscan and Caribbean holidays as the economy was still growing strongly and inflation was low, however when the economy is less good voters don't like PMs in the sun. Callaghan's 'crisis what crisis' remark after returning from holiday in Guadeloupe wasn't rewarded by the voters in 1979 given the high inflation and strikes at the time
    "Crisis what crisis" was a Sun headline, not a Callaghan Quote.

    Sunak holidaying in his Santa Monica house really does add to the impression of the super rich lifestyle of a Non-Dom spouse.
    It was a sun headline accurately precising the callaghan quote "Well, that's a judgment that you are making. I promise you that if you look at it from outside, and perhaps you're taking rather a parochial view at the moment, I don't think that other people in the world would share the view that there is mounting chaos."

  • “I’ve been trying to pin it down but there is something lacking in his approach and how it comes out on TV.”

    Exactly the same here. However, I think a PB poster (sorry, can’t locate it now) from a thread earlier in week hit the nail on the head by saying that Sunak comes over as being ‘whiny’. Never a good sound for a leader.

    A smart comment from earlier in the day;

    Meanwhile, seems Rishi didn't go down well on LBC this morning. Some commentary from General Boles-

    Rishi's terrible at the media thing because he's a geeky numbers guy who thinks at a macro level where individual hardship doesn't matter so long as the aggregate effect is positive for the country (as he sees it)
    He quickly gets annoyed with interviewers who question his "wisdom" because to him these are self-evidently the best policies and anyone who can't see it is a bit dim / disingenuous
    Before I became a top satirical photoshopper I was a big deal* in finance and we never let the analysts in front of clients because their brains weren't wired for the touchy-feely emotional side that you need to convince people to place their £££ with you
    *not entirely true


    https://twitter.com/GeneralBoles/status/1686716907393581061

    1. As a geeky numbers guy myself, he's not wrong, is he?
    2. What the hell do the Conservatives do about this at D minus 9/14/18 months?

    I think Rishi's finance background is definitely a major cause of this. One angle that has not been commented on is that, if you are a Buy-side client (which Rishi was for many years) and you work for a major fund (which Rishi did), essentially the sell-side banks suck up to you all day, every day and will never argue vociferously with you, even if they think you are wrong. It is too much risk if the client takes offence and goes somewhere else. Basically, you start to think you are superior which - to someone of Rishi's stature and manner - would go to his head. However, that is not great for politics.
  • Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    The biggest change Sunak needs is for inflation to keep falling. The less voters are worried about cost of living the less they will feel a need to change government, some tax cuts too once that is done would also help swing undecideds back to the Tories

    "inflation falls" does not mean "cheaper prices"; in the current context it means "prices that have already gone up a lot more than wages and which are still going up".
    Very good point. If inflation falls to 5% Sunak will say 'my promise has been delivered' while Joe Public is still seeing everything costing more than it did last year.
    There's a great deal of deliberate obfuscation of the first and second order derivatives of the price variablewith the price variable itself in Toryspeak at the moment. In fact there has been a great deal for the last year or so since inflation became even more of an issue than usual. But, ass you say, it risks being counterproductive.
    Similarly with the deliberate use of 'debt' when they (presumably*) mean deficit, although public deficit/debt is less in voters' faces than inflation.

    (*Because no way is debt going to reduce in the lifetime of this parliament.)
    Actually they do mean debt. The debt ratio specifically.

    Debt to GDP falling is the target.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,856
    HYUFD said:

    The biggest change Sunak needs is for inflation to keep falling. The less voters are worried about cost of living the less they will feel a need to change government, some tax cuts too once that is done would also help swing undecideds back to the Tories

    Good economic conditions didn't help the Tories last time, and God knows the economy in 1997 was better than anything Sunak can hope for.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,679

    What saves Sunak is an Event, dear boy.

    I don't know what sort of Event, but it would have to be a jolly big one. And probably not the one referenced in the Mitchell and Webb "Remain Indoors" sketches.

    But if Rishi goes into the election having to persuade people, it's just not going to work, unless he is using this holiday to have a Complete Personality Transplant operation.

    The 'event' would have to be something big and negative for Labour. Which I don't see because Starmer owns the party now and is taking no risks whatsoever. Absolutely nothing gets out (policy or messaging) that might upset the sort of voters he needs to win and hence is targeting (being red wall leavers and apolitical floaters).
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,489
    I think if Sunak delivered on his 5 pledges, his polling would improve. However, he doesn’t actually have a workable plan to do so… for any of them.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    geoffw said:

    Sunak will be hoping for a Black Swan while hiding White Elephants such as HS2

    And throwing out some dead cats?

    HYUFD said:

    The biggest change Sunak needs is for inflation to keep falling. The less voters are worried about cost of living the less they will feel a need to change government, some tax cuts too once that is done would also help swing undecideds back to the Tories

    Good economic conditions didn't help the Tories last time, and God knows the economy in 1997 was better than anything Sunak can hope for.
    Quite - people won't show gratitude if things are ok, if they suffered a lot in the meantime.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,856
    geoffw said:

    Sunak will be hoping for a Black Swan while hiding White Elephants such as HS2

    Cancelling white elephants like HS2 would be a massive step forward. He'd gain a great deal of stature for having the stones to apply the shotgun on that.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,038
    edited August 2023
    San Diego is famous for having the same weather day after day. But the weather can vary wildly from one part of California to another.

    Which is what you should expect given the size of the state, and the differences in elevation: "Death Valley's Badwater Basin is the point of lowest elevation in North America, at 282 feet (86 m) below sea level.[1] It is 84.6 miles (136.2 km) east-southeast of Mount Whitney — the highest point in the contiguous United States, with an elevation of 14,505 feet (4,421 m)."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Valley

    As for the snow pack, it is at 100 percent of normal for this time of year. Last winter brought enough snow to break the years-long drought, at least temporarily, much to the relief of most in California.

    (BTW, it isn't unusual for San Francisco to have lower temperatures than Seattle, even though the first is about 800 miles south of the second.)

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,406
    edited August 2023
    Pro_Rata said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    My Rutherglen & Hamilton West post on whether there is anything unusual to be gleaned from the Local Elections.

    So my normal approach would be to base on the LE22 round and then see if there is any forward facing data since then

    Rutherglen & Hamilton West LE22 gave:
    SNP 39.2 (-5.0 on GE19)
    Lab 34.1 (-0.4)
    Con 11.0 (-4.0)
    LD 11.0 (+5.8)
    Others (mainly Green) 4.6 (+3.4)

    To my eyes a lot of the movement here is that of an STV election vs an FPTP election, a lot of that lost SNP vote is hidden in Others and likely to return as at this point.

    So, LE22 is not too far away from GE19.

    In terms of actual election swings since then, there have been 5 local by-elections in Scotland this year, 3 with Labour as the challengers. Swings away from the SNP on the first vote have been steady and consistent:

    In Stirling SNP to Con challenger swing was 5.5%
    In Edinburgh SNP to LD swing was 6%
    In Aberdeen SNP to Lab was 9%
    In the Lanarkshires (though neither in this constituency) SNP to Lab were 11 and 13.5% respectively.

    I don't know if it's the somewhat evened out political environment, large multi member wards, full slates of candidates, STV or what, but Scottish local elections and by elections, outside the Independent lands at least, show little of the madness that is often on show in England. Whenever I look things seem smooth, indicative and fairly well aligned with the polls.

    If a 10ish% swing to Labour does not materialize, I think that will reflect back something hitherto unknown about the Scottish attitudes to GE24 and would be far more telling than Uxbridge ever was. Labour need the boring result that every indicator suggests will happen. The chance of that is non-zero, this will be the first politician sent to London from Scotland since Airdrie and Shotts returned Anum Qaisar in sunnier SNP days.



    Curse of the long post / new thread
    Please don't think me stupid, but the salient point did rather get lost in the detail. Do you think Labour will win Rutherglen and Hamilton or not?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,364

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    .

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    @MattW is the acknowledged expert on cycling infrastructure. I’m sure his predictions that cycling can be expected to triple in coming years is right.

    I’m hopeful about Birmingham and Nottingham too.

    I remember when I posted that it was a shame that cities outside London lacked cyclehire schemes and I was denounced as a cappuccino supping metro elitist.

    A small, but very useful scheme - Brompton offer cycle hire

    https://bromptonhire.com/our-locations/

    A number are next to rail/tube stations.

    I'm seeing on the trains an increasing number of people who've obviously hired one (the colour scheme is quiet, but noticeable) for a day out - train out to somewhere in the country side, unfold and ride.

    For those who don't know them, Brompton folding bikes are allowed on all trains because they are so compact. They are, in addition, very rideable, compared to other small wheel bikes.
    Bromptons are very cool, as well as a British manufacturing success story.
    I have a single speed titanium one with flat bars because that's just how I roll.

    They are not particularly 'rideable' because of a very short mechanical trail distance of 27mm. A normal bicycle has 40-65mm and therefore much stronger castering action. I have ridden mine over 60km in one ride though.
    What's the verdict on cargo ebikes? I'm tempted by something like a Tern or the cheaper Radwagon. Where we live, it'd make sense for me, rather than use the Transporter for a 10 minute drive to town. It'd be a crime to use my hardtail with panniers.
    Terns are I think well-thought of and robust, if somewhat expensive at £3-4k+. ie about 12-18 months of running costs for a small 2nd car.

    You can find E-Cargo bikes from about £1500, or secondhand, and they hold their value well.

    There are also good e-cargo-trikes.

    Some reviews:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-electric-cargo-bikes
    Some reviews of budget ones:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-e-cargo-bikes-under-3000-affordable-electric-bikes-to-do-the-job-of

    I bought my car for £3,000, and it can carry a family of five and all of their luggage for a fortnight away. Plus the dog.

    And the bike won’t go 80mph, do. 0-60 in six seconds, or make V8 noises. ULEZ compliant as well.
    (It’s a later model of this)
    [Picture of dog required for scale]
    Okay, nicked off the internet.
    (This is a later model of car)
    [Scale now obtained. Thank you, @Sandpit]
    As I always say, it's not a competition.

    What is your annual running cost, btw? *innocent face*
    Okay, I’ll bite.

    I’ve previously lived in places where work and home were 400m apart, and home was 100m from the station. Brilliant. No need for a car, take a taxi or rent one when required.

    Right now, I live 25km from work, and the journey is pretty much impossible by anything other than car. It’s 20m in the car, or nearly 2h by public transport (walk, bus, train, train, walk, boat, walk).

    The problem I have, is trying to fit one-size-fits-all solutions into a diverse population. People will change jobs, and transport methods that worked with old job no longer work with new job. Not just jobs either, people have regular appointments with schools, shops, social events, that can change over time.

    Having a car is a sunk cost; not just for the car, but for insurance, VED, servicing etc. Owning a house is an even bigger sunk cost; it’s often easier to accept an hour’s commute than to commit to spending five figures on moving house, even assuming that a similar house near new job can be purchased for similar money to the one you have already.

    Once you have a car the marginal cost of a single extra journey is tiny, compared to the cost of a bus or train journey for more than one person. If you’re on your own, the cost is about the same, but the difference in time and exposure to the weather is significantly different.

    The impression given by those wanting to increase cycling, is that it starts with a dislike of cars. Now, there’s silly drivers and silly cyclists out there, and the cyclists are in the more vulnerable position if there’s a collision between the two. I can understand that it makes sense to separate the traffic where possible, but most of the suggestions start with reducing the space available for cars, rather than first increasing the space for other transport methods and letting the change happen organically.

    Many people have no choice but to drive, they might have a complex schedule that involves getting the kids to school, going to work, running errands for their employer, picking up kids and going to activities etc, or they might just be like me, who’d rather spend 40m a day driving than 4h on public transport. I do occasionally take the public transport to work, if we went for beers afterwards and I took a taxi home.

    The personal motor car is possibly the greatest invention of the 20th century, in terms of the freedom it gives people to move around, to seek work, to better themselves, to spend more time with those they love.

    It comes across that there’s a concerted effort to regress on personal car ownership, for a wide range of different ideological positions. Whether it’s the cycling lobby, the bus lobby, the train lobby, the Uber lobby, the car-as-a-service lobby, or the environmental lobby, is almost irrelevant; the aim is to leave fewer people with the option to just jump in their own car and enjoy the freedom of the road.
    I agree with your entire post - just swap out "car" for "bicycle".

    The key reason that people don't cycle in the UK is that they are scared of getting hit by a car. The "freedom" to cycle around has been eroded by a constant threat of injury or death.

    And car ownership is closely related to wealth. The poor have no choice but to cycle, walk or use public transport. What of their "freedom"?

    Cars are late to this game. People were walking, and then cycling, around our towns and cities long before motorists came along. In the 1950s there was 8x as much cycling as there is now.
    For the vast majority of people, having their own car was massive progress over bikes and horses. Owning a car was aspirational, people with cars are mobile and can go from any major city to another within a day, unbeholden to anyone except themselves.

    I’m all in favour of better roads for those who want to cycle, but most of the cycling campaigners start from the premise that less road should be given over to cars, and work backwards from there.
    Fewer drivers = more road.
    No, more road = more road.

    90% of transportation miles are taken by drivers and that is consistent in pretty much all countries across Europe. This includes cyclists and public transportation.

    You can't induce demand much beyond 90%. And even if cycling in this country were to double and all of those extra cycling miles were removed from driving miles, you'd be removing less than 1% of cars from the road. Which would be entirely negated by population growth being over 1% per annum.
    I've been meaning to ask you.
    Do you like cars?
    Guessing this is sarcasm?

    Of course I do, they're great. Convenient, practical, efficient and they work. They're the best and most efficient form of transportation that exists.

    I also like bikes, they're fun recreationally too.

    The thing is that bikes are not an alternative to cars, in the same way as chocolate cake is not an alternative to a balanced diet.

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.
    Not for 83% of us :)

    More importantly, about 1 in 5 households in Hillingdon (and Havering) manage without any car or van at all. Even in Rishi's Richmondshire, it's 1 in 8.

    So, no- cars are not required. They might be useful, but they're not required. "I want" isn't the same as "I need", as granny used to say.
    Which is bollocks, I lived in slough almost 40 years....in all that time I had precisely 2 jobs in slough, I worked in wantage,epsom,reading,farnborough apart from that. Public transport was only viable for reading. None of those places was cyclable to. Just because you live in an urban area does not mean you will find a job in that urban area
    Here are the figures;

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/choropleth/housing/number-of-cars-or-vans/number-of-cars-3a/no-cars-or-vans-in-household?lad=E06000039

    20 percent of households in Slough.
    Sorry what point are you trying to make here? 80% of slough needs a car?
    No. What I am saying is that Bart's claim,

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.

    is demonstrably untrue. Plenty of functioning adults manage their lives perfectly well without driving a car, ever. On the latest stats, about 1 in 4 adults in England don't have a driving licence.

    That's not the case for everyone, sure. I'm not arguing for no cars at all anywhere, and you'd have to get pretty fringe to get that view.

    What I do think is that cars can be excellent servants, but appalling masters. If we try to put sufficient road and parking space in urban areas, we cut them in pieces and often kill the things that make them good places to live. By making roads less safe and public transport less viable, we (and this includes me) make life demonstrably worse for the 1 in 4 adults who don't drive and the young people who struggle to be independently mobile.

    And the evidence is that, if you create safe networks for walking and cycling, properly away from motorised traffic, people do use them as a serious way of getting bits of their daily business done. Which is good for everyone.
    Plenty of people get about by being passengers in cars yes, or relying upon others who drive cars in order to service their needs instead.

    Very few in modern society have nothing to do with cars, whether it be via being a passenger in one (inc taxis), or getting their post delivered, or parcels delivered, or going to shops which have cars, vans and trucks delivering their supplies.

    Even if you don't drive, you almost certainly have people who are driving assisting you in the way you live on an daily basis. That's how modern society exists and it is all the better for it.

    The evidence is that if you have safe networks for walking and cycling then a miniscule percentage of daily miles/km travelled is done that way, which is absolutely fine, but cars remain the overwhelming majority of transportation.

    Even in tiny Netherlands, the most bike-friendly country in the world, bikes account for single-digit percentage of total km travelled while cars make up over 75%.

    If you want to ride a bike a short distance then good luck to you, but unless you want to go back to 18th century standards of living, we need cars in the real world.

    Er. 'Car' usually means 'private car'. Not delivery van, bus, minibus ... which is sort of the entire theme of all your posts as road warrior in backless gloves in his Rover 2000.
    Actually vans, buses, minibuses, etc are simply different types of cars. And if you order off Amazon or other delivery suppliers then a significant portion of those deliveries are made by someone else's private car anyway. Plus if we're talking about investment in roads, or closing roads, then absolutely all of those vehicles need roads every bit as much as private cars do.

    I've never driven a Rover, nor are my posts remotely road warrior unless you're an absolutely crazy anti-car fanatic - which this site seems to have a completely disproportionate amount of.

    I've been consistently pro opening new roads for improving cycling and other demands which is win/win.

    What I'm against is cutting capacity for over 90% of our transportation without any alternative. Build roads and you can add better cycling and walking capacity absolutely.
    Fact remains, private cars are hopelssly selfish and consume vast amounts of resources compared to communal vehicles of various sorts. Even an Amazon delivery car is dozens of times better than driving to the local bookshop or W H Smiths.
    Load of crap. Private cars consume minimal amounts of resources per mile travelled. They're wonderfully efficient.

    Gram for gram my bike is a less efficient use of resources than my car.
    Remarkable economic and engineering analysis. If it were true ...

    Bujt it's not, because you have the rest of us pay much of the cost.
    It is true. And you haven't paid a single penny towards my vehicle, quite the opposite, my taxes fund so much more than my driving.

    My car weighs approximately 1220 kg. It has done just under 100k miles since I bought it new. I should pass the 100k mark this year.

    So looking at the car weight per mile that is about 82 miles per kg.

    But most of the time I have passengers in the vehicle. 2, 3 and sometimes 4. So let's estimate 250k total passenger miles travelled. That'd mean 205 passenger miles per kg of car weight. And that's disregarding the shopping etc transported too.

    My bike weighs about 10kg and I won't have done more than double digit miles in it. And I've never carried any passengers on my bike.
    On the contrary, you would be paying most of those taxes anyway with or withotu a car. Those taxes and charges directly attributable to having a car don't pay your way. And I am therefore certainly subsidising you as I don't have a car.
    What the hell are you talking about? If you don't have a car then I am massively subsidising you. You should be grateful.

    The billions of profit that HMRC gets from taxes on drivers make us the golden geese. Hopefully with the switchover from fuel to electricity this will end and you can start paying your share, but I don't expect it and won't hold my breath.
    You're still not including the externalities, for a start. And for another, I am paying just as much tax as you, only I don't choose to drive around in a heavy vehicle all to myself and my family. I pay tax on bus fuel, on train fuel, and so on.

    I'm not at all grateful that you insist on taking up so much space that it chokes the life out of the rest of us, physically and in terms of the air we breathe. Your demand for more roads more roads more roads is just insane.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    edited August 2023
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The biggest change Sunak needs is for inflation to keep falling. The less voters are worried about cost of living the less they will feel a need to change government, some tax cuts too once that is done would also help swing undecideds back to the Tories

    I don't think so. Major had more or less got the economy back on track by 1997 but the voters had already decided and thus the Tories were screwed. Same this time.

    For nothing now can ever come to any good with this Conservative administration.
    Major was facing Blair who is both more charismatic than Starmer and even more centrist. Major also had the legacy of Black Wednesday.

    1992 was 18 years into Tory government too, 2024 will be only 14 years into Tory government ie closer to the 13 years of 1992 when Major beat Kinnock against the odds when most polls had Labour ahead
    The polls were pretty neck-and-neck a year out from the 1992 GE. Labour had a maximum lead of 10% in the year that followed running up to the election but the Tories were often ahead too.

    In contrast, for more than 9 months now Labour's lead hasn't dipped below 10%.
  • kinabalu said:

    What saves Sunak is an Event, dear boy.

    I don't know what sort of Event, but it would have to be a jolly big one. And probably not the one referenced in the Mitchell and Webb "Remain Indoors" sketches.

    But if Rishi goes into the election having to persuade people, it's just not going to work, unless he is using this holiday to have a Complete Personality Transplant operation.

    The 'event' would have to be something big and negative for Labour. Which I don't see because Starmer owns the party now and is taking no risks whatsoever. Absolutely nothing gets out (policy or messaging) that might upset the sort of voters he needs to win and hence is targeting (being red wall leavers and apolitical floaters).
    Its not going to happen as Starmer isn't completely crazy, but if Labour adopted the anti-car attitude shown by many people here in recent days then that could turn every marginal constituency against Labour.

    The election is decided by drivers. Starmer isn't stupid enough to be anti-driver.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,406

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    The biggest change Sunak needs is for inflation to keep falling. The less voters are worried about cost of living the less they will feel a need to change government, some tax cuts too once that is done would also help swing undecideds back to the Tories

    "inflation falls" does not mean "cheaper prices"; in the current context it means "prices that have already gone up a lot more than wages and which are still going up".
    Very good point. If inflation falls to 5% Sunak will say 'my promise has been delivered' while Joe Public is still seeing everything costing more than it did last year.
    There's a great deal of deliberate obfuscation of the first and second order derivatives of the price variablewith the price variable itself in Toryspeak at the moment. In fact there has been a great deal for the last year or so since inflation became even more of an issue than usual. But, ass you say, it risks being counterproductive.
    Similarly with the deliberate use of 'debt' when they (presumably*) mean deficit, although public deficit/debt is less in voters' faces than inflation.

    (*Because no way is debt going to reduce in the lifetime of this parliament.)
    Actually they do mean debt. The debt ratio specifically.

    Debt to GDP falling is the target.
    Isn't the question whether interest on the debt is increasing faster than the tax take?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 22,399
    edited August 2023
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The biggest change Sunak needs is for inflation to keep falling. The less voters are worried about cost of living the less they will feel a need to change government, some tax cuts too once that is done would also help swing undecideds back to the Tories

    I don't think so. Major had more or less got the economy back on track by 1997 but the voters had already decided and thus the Tories were screwed. Same this time.

    For nothing now can ever come to any good with this Conservative administration.
    Major was facing Blair who is both more charismatic than Starmer and even more centrist. Major also had the legacy of Black Wednesday.

    1992 was 18 years into Tory government too, 2024 will be only 14 years into Tory government ie closer to the 13 years of 1992 when Major beat Kinnock against the odds when most polls had Labour ahead
    Blair may have been more charismatic than Starmer, but Major was miles more charismatic than Sunak.

    Major on his soapbox was quite formidable. That's how he won 1992. Sunak has none of that.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    The biggest change Sunak needs is for inflation to keep falling. The less voters are worried about cost of living the less they will feel a need to change government, some tax cuts too once that is done would also help swing undecideds back to the Tories

    "inflation falls" does not mean "cheaper prices"; in the current context it means "prices that have already gone up a lot more than wages and which are still going up".
    Very good point. If inflation falls to 5% Sunak will say 'my promise has been delivered' while Joe Public is still seeing everything costing more than it did last year.
    There's a great deal of deliberate obfuscation of the first and second order derivatives of the price variablewith the price variable itself in Toryspeak at the moment. In fact there has been a great deal for the last year or so since inflation became even more of an issue than usual. But, ass you say, it risks being counterproductive.
    Similarly with the deliberate use of 'debt' when they (presumably*) mean deficit, although public deficit/debt is less in voters' faces than inflation.

    (*Because no way is debt going to reduce in the lifetime of this parliament.)
    Actually they do mean debt. The debt ratio specifically.

    Debt to GDP falling is the target.
    Most of the public wouldn’t have a clue what debt to GDP falling means or even would care .

    The poisoned dwarf needs to stfu about his now tiresome list . The public are bored to death of hearing about it .
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,644

    San Diego is famous for having the same weather day after day. But the weather can vary wildly from one part of California to another.

    Which is what you should expect given the size of the state, and the differences in elevation: "Death Valley's Badwater Basin is the point of lowest elevation in North America, at 282 feet (86 m) below sea level.[1] It is 84.6 miles (136.2 km) east-southeast of Mount Whitney — the highest point in the contiguous United States, with an elevation of 14,505 feet (4,421 m)."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Valley

    As for the snow pack, it is at 100 percent of normal for this time of year. Last winter brought enough snow to break the years-long drought, at least temporarily, much to the relief of most in California.

    (BTW, it isn't unusual for San Francisco to have lower temperatures than Seattle, even though the first is about 800 miles south of the second.)

    The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco.

    -Twain
  • SandraMcSandraMc Posts: 703
    Callaghan wasn't on holiday in Guadeloupe; it was a summit meeting. Although IIRC he was photoed on the beach.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,101
    rcs1000 said:

    The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco.

    -Twain

    I visited, and immediately bought a jacket.

    It's no wonder the sellers of sweatshirts on the Golden Gate Bridge do such good business
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 22,399
    edited August 2023
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    .

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    @MattW is the acknowledged expert on cycling infrastructure. I’m sure his predictions that cycling can be expected to triple in coming years is right.

    I’m hopeful about Birmingham and Nottingham too.

    I remember when I posted that it was a shame that cities outside London lacked cyclehire schemes and I was denounced as a cappuccino supping metro elitist.

    A small, but very useful scheme - Brompton offer cycle hire

    https://bromptonhire.com/our-locations/

    A number are next to rail/tube stations.

    I'm seeing on the trains an increasing number of people who've obviously hired one (the colour scheme is quiet, but noticeable) for a day out - train out to somewhere in the country side, unfold and ride.

    For those who don't know them, Brompton folding bikes are allowed on all trains because they are so compact. They are, in addition, very rideable, compared to other small wheel bikes.
    Bromptons are very cool, as well as a British manufacturing success story.
    I have a single speed titanium one with flat bars because that's just how I roll.

    They are not particularly 'rideable' because of a very short mechanical trail distance of 27mm. A normal bicycle has 40-65mm and therefore much stronger castering action. I have ridden mine over 60km in one ride though.
    What's the verdict on cargo ebikes? I'm tempted by something like a Tern or the cheaper Radwagon. Where we live, it'd make sense for me, rather than use the Transporter for a 10 minute drive to town. It'd be a crime to use my hardtail with panniers.
    Terns are I think well-thought of and robust, if somewhat expensive at £3-4k+. ie about 12-18 months of running costs for a small 2nd car.

    You can find E-Cargo bikes from about £1500, or secondhand, and they hold their value well.

    There are also good e-cargo-trikes.

    Some reviews:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-electric-cargo-bikes
    Some reviews of budget ones:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-e-cargo-bikes-under-3000-affordable-electric-bikes-to-do-the-job-of

    I bought my car for £3,000, and it can carry a family of five and all of their luggage for a fortnight away. Plus the dog.

    And the bike won’t go 80mph, do. 0-60 in six seconds, or make V8 noises. ULEZ compliant as well.
    (It’s a later model of this)
    [Picture of dog required for scale]
    Okay, nicked off the internet.
    (This is a later model of car)
    [Scale now obtained. Thank you, @Sandpit]
    As I always say, it's not a competition.

    What is your annual running cost, btw? *innocent face*
    Okay, I’ll bite.

    I’ve previously lived in places where work and home were 400m apart, and home was 100m from the station. Brilliant. No need for a car, take a taxi or rent one when required.

    Right now, I live 25km from work, and the journey is pretty much impossible by anything other than car. It’s 20m in the car, or nearly 2h by public transport (walk, bus, train, train, walk, boat, walk).

    The problem I have, is trying to fit one-size-fits-all solutions into a diverse population. People will change jobs, and transport methods that worked with old job no longer work with new job. Not just jobs either, people have regular appointments with schools, shops, social events, that can change over time.

    Having a car is a sunk cost; not just for the car, but for insurance, VED, servicing etc. Owning a house is an even bigger sunk cost; it’s often easier to accept an hour’s commute than to commit to spending five figures on moving house, even assuming that a similar house near new job can be purchased for similar money to the one you have already.

    Once you have a car the marginal cost of a single extra journey is tiny, compared to the cost of a bus or train journey for more than one person. If you’re on your own, the cost is about the same, but the difference in time and exposure to the weather is significantly different.

    The impression given by those wanting to increase cycling, is that it starts with a dislike of cars. Now, there’s silly drivers and silly cyclists out there, and the cyclists are in the more vulnerable position if there’s a collision between the two. I can understand that it makes sense to separate the traffic where possible, but most of the suggestions start with reducing the space available for cars, rather than first increasing the space for other transport methods and letting the change happen organically.

    Many people have no choice but to drive, they might have a complex schedule that involves getting the kids to school, going to work, running errands for their employer, picking up kids and going to activities etc, or they might just be like me, who’d rather spend 40m a day driving than 4h on public transport. I do occasionally take the public transport to work, if we went for beers afterwards and I took a taxi home.

    The personal motor car is possibly the greatest invention of the 20th century, in terms of the freedom it gives people to move around, to seek work, to better themselves, to spend more time with those they love.

    It comes across that there’s a concerted effort to regress on personal car ownership, for a wide range of different ideological positions. Whether it’s the cycling lobby, the bus lobby, the train lobby, the Uber lobby, the car-as-a-service lobby, or the environmental lobby, is almost irrelevant; the aim is to leave fewer people with the option to just jump in their own car and enjoy the freedom of the road.
    I agree with your entire post - just swap out "car" for "bicycle".

    The key reason that people don't cycle in the UK is that they are scared of getting hit by a car. The "freedom" to cycle around has been eroded by a constant threat of injury or death.

    And car ownership is closely related to wealth. The poor have no choice but to cycle, walk or use public transport. What of their "freedom"?

    Cars are late to this game. People were walking, and then cycling, around our towns and cities long before motorists came along. In the 1950s there was 8x as much cycling as there is now.
    For the vast majority of people, having their own car was massive progress over bikes and horses. Owning a car was aspirational, people with cars are mobile and can go from any major city to another within a day, unbeholden to anyone except themselves.

    I’m all in favour of better roads for those who want to cycle, but most of the cycling campaigners start from the premise that less road should be given over to cars, and work backwards from there.
    Fewer drivers = more road.
    No, more road = more road.

    90% of transportation miles are taken by drivers and that is consistent in pretty much all countries across Europe. This includes cyclists and public transportation.

    You can't induce demand much beyond 90%. And even if cycling in this country were to double and all of those extra cycling miles were removed from driving miles, you'd be removing less than 1% of cars from the road. Which would be entirely negated by population growth being over 1% per annum.
    I've been meaning to ask you.
    Do you like cars?
    Guessing this is sarcasm?

    Of course I do, they're great. Convenient, practical, efficient and they work. They're the best and most efficient form of transportation that exists.

    I also like bikes, they're fun recreationally too.

    The thing is that bikes are not an alternative to cars, in the same way as chocolate cake is not an alternative to a balanced diet.

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.
    Not for 83% of us :)

    More importantly, about 1 in 5 households in Hillingdon (and Havering) manage without any car or van at all. Even in Rishi's Richmondshire, it's 1 in 8.

    So, no- cars are not required. They might be useful, but they're not required. "I want" isn't the same as "I need", as granny used to say.
    Which is bollocks, I lived in slough almost 40 years....in all that time I had precisely 2 jobs in slough, I worked in wantage,epsom,reading,farnborough apart from that. Public transport was only viable for reading. None of those places was cyclable to. Just because you live in an urban area does not mean you will find a job in that urban area
    Here are the figures;

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/choropleth/housing/number-of-cars-or-vans/number-of-cars-3a/no-cars-or-vans-in-household?lad=E06000039

    20 percent of households in Slough.
    Sorry what point are you trying to make here? 80% of slough needs a car?
    No. What I am saying is that Bart's claim,

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.

    is demonstrably untrue. Plenty of functioning adults manage their lives perfectly well without driving a car, ever. On the latest stats, about 1 in 4 adults in England don't have a driving licence.

    That's not the case for everyone, sure. I'm not arguing for no cars at all anywhere, and you'd have to get pretty fringe to get that view.

    What I do think is that cars can be excellent servants, but appalling masters. If we try to put sufficient road and parking space in urban areas, we cut them in pieces and often kill the things that make them good places to live. By making roads less safe and public transport less viable, we (and this includes me) make life demonstrably worse for the 1 in 4 adults who don't drive and the young people who struggle to be independently mobile.

    And the evidence is that, if you create safe networks for walking and cycling, properly away from motorised traffic, people do use them as a serious way of getting bits of their daily business done. Which is good for everyone.
    Plenty of people get about by being passengers in cars yes, or relying upon others who drive cars in order to service their needs instead.

    Very few in modern society have nothing to do with cars, whether it be via being a passenger in one (inc taxis), or getting their post delivered, or parcels delivered, or going to shops which have cars, vans and trucks delivering their supplies.

    Even if you don't drive, you almost certainly have people who are driving assisting you in the way you live on an daily basis. That's how modern society exists and it is all the better for it.

    The evidence is that if you have safe networks for walking and cycling then a miniscule percentage of daily miles/km travelled is done that way, which is absolutely fine, but cars remain the overwhelming majority of transportation.

    Even in tiny Netherlands, the most bike-friendly country in the world, bikes account for single-digit percentage of total km travelled while cars make up over 75%.

    If you want to ride a bike a short distance then good luck to you, but unless you want to go back to 18th century standards of living, we need cars in the real world.

    Er. 'Car' usually means 'private car'. Not delivery van, bus, minibus ... which is sort of the entire theme of all your posts as road warrior in backless gloves in his Rover 2000.
    Actually vans, buses, minibuses, etc are simply different types of cars. And if you order off Amazon or other delivery suppliers then a significant portion of those deliveries are made by someone else's private car anyway. Plus if we're talking about investment in roads, or closing roads, then absolutely all of those vehicles need roads every bit as much as private cars do.

    I've never driven a Rover, nor are my posts remotely road warrior unless you're an absolutely crazy anti-car fanatic - which this site seems to have a completely disproportionate amount of.

    I've been consistently pro opening new roads for improving cycling and other demands which is win/win.

    What I'm against is cutting capacity for over 90% of our transportation without any alternative. Build roads and you can add better cycling and walking capacity absolutely.
    Fact remains, private cars are hopelssly selfish and consume vast amounts of resources compared to communal vehicles of various sorts. Even an Amazon delivery car is dozens of times better than driving to the local bookshop or W H Smiths.
    Load of crap. Private cars consume minimal amounts of resources per mile travelled. They're wonderfully efficient.

    Gram for gram my bike is a less efficient use of resources than my car.
    Remarkable economic and engineering analysis. If it were true ...

    Bujt it's not, because you have the rest of us pay much of the cost.
    It is true. And you haven't paid a single penny towards my vehicle, quite the opposite, my taxes fund so much more than my driving.

    My car weighs approximately 1220 kg. It has done just under 100k miles since I bought it new. I should pass the 100k mark this year.

    So looking at the car weight per mile that is about 82 miles per kg.

    But most of the time I have passengers in the vehicle. 2, 3 and sometimes 4. So let's estimate 250k total passenger miles travelled. That'd mean 205 passenger miles per kg of car weight. And that's disregarding the shopping etc transported too.

    My bike weighs about 10kg and I won't have done more than double digit miles in it. And I've never carried any passengers on my bike.
    On the contrary, you would be paying most of those taxes anyway with or withotu a car. Those taxes and charges directly attributable to having a car don't pay your way. And I am therefore certainly subsidising you as I don't have a car.
    What the hell are you talking about? If you don't have a car then I am massively subsidising you. You should be grateful.

    The billions of profit that HMRC gets from taxes on drivers make us the golden geese. Hopefully with the switchover from fuel to electricity this will end and you can start paying your share, but I don't expect it and won't hold my breath.
    You're still not including the externalities, for a start. And for another, I am paying just as much tax as you, only I don't choose to drive around in a heavy vehicle all to myself and my family. I pay tax on bus fuel, on train fuel, and so on.

    I'm not at all grateful that you insist on taking up so much space that it chokes the life out of the rest of us, physically and in terms of the air we breathe. Your demand for more roads more roads more roads is just insane.
    I am including the externalities. All measurable externalities cost less than what drivers pay in taxation.

    The air I breathe is clean. The NOX and PM2.5 where I live and drive is completely healthy. And as we transition to electric vehicles they don't pollute the air and the myth they do is a lie spread by climate change denialists.

    The demand for roads, roads, roads is no more insane than the demand for houses, houses, houses. We've had population growth - a growing population needs more roads and more housing. We haven't had enough built of either.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    .

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    @MattW is the acknowledged expert on cycling infrastructure. I’m sure his predictions that cycling can be expected to triple in coming years is right.

    I’m hopeful about Birmingham and Nottingham too.

    I remember when I posted that it was a shame that cities outside London lacked cyclehire schemes and I was denounced as a cappuccino supping metro elitist.

    A small, but very useful scheme - Brompton offer cycle hire

    https://bromptonhire.com/our-locations/

    A number are next to rail/tube stations.

    I'm seeing on the trains an increasing number of people who've obviously hired one (the colour scheme is quiet, but noticeable) for a day out - train out to somewhere in the country side, unfold and ride.

    For those who don't know them, Brompton folding bikes are allowed on all trains because they are so compact. They are, in addition, very rideable, compared to other small wheel bikes.
    Bromptons are very cool, as well as a British manufacturing success story.
    I have a single speed titanium one with flat bars because that's just how I roll.

    They are not particularly 'rideable' because of a very short mechanical trail distance of 27mm. A normal bicycle has 40-65mm and therefore much stronger castering action. I have ridden mine over 60km in one ride though.
    What's the verdict on cargo ebikes? I'm tempted by something like a Tern or the cheaper Radwagon. Where we live, it'd make sense for me, rather than use the Transporter for a 10 minute drive to town. It'd be a crime to use my hardtail with panniers.
    Terns are I think well-thought of and robust, if somewhat expensive at £3-4k+. ie about 12-18 months of running costs for a small 2nd car.

    You can find E-Cargo bikes from about £1500, or secondhand, and they hold their value well.

    There are also good e-cargo-trikes.

    Some reviews:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-electric-cargo-bikes
    Some reviews of budget ones:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-e-cargo-bikes-under-3000-affordable-electric-bikes-to-do-the-job-of

    I bought my car for £3,000, and it can carry a family of five and all of their luggage for a fortnight away. Plus the dog.

    And the bike won’t go 80mph, do. 0-60 in six seconds, or make V8 noises. ULEZ compliant as well.
    (It’s a later model of this)
    [Picture of dog required for scale]
    Okay, nicked off the internet.
    (This is a later model of car)
    [Scale now obtained. Thank you, @Sandpit]
    As I always say, it's not a competition.

    What is your annual running cost, btw? *innocent face*
    Okay, I’ll bite.

    I’ve previously lived in places where work and home were 400m apart, and home was 100m from the station. Brilliant. No need for a car, take a taxi or rent one when required.

    Right now, I live 25km from work, and the journey is pretty much impossible by anything other than car. It’s 20m in the car, or nearly 2h by public transport (walk, bus, train, train, walk, boat, walk).

    The problem I have, is trying to fit one-size-fits-all solutions into a diverse population. People will change jobs, and transport methods that worked with old job no longer work with new job. Not just jobs either, people have regular appointments with schools, shops, social events, that can change over time.

    Having a car is a sunk cost; not just for the car, but for insurance, VED, servicing etc. Owning a house is an even bigger sunk cost; it’s often easier to accept an hour’s commute than to commit to spending five figures on moving house, even assuming that a similar house near new job can be purchased for similar money to the one you have already.

    Once you have a car the marginal cost of a single extra journey is tiny, compared to the cost of a bus or train journey for more than one person. If you’re on your own, the cost is about the same, but the difference in time and exposure to the weather is significantly different.

    The impression given by those wanting to increase cycling, is that it starts with a dislike of cars. Now, there’s silly drivers and silly cyclists out there, and the cyclists are in the more vulnerable position if there’s a collision between the two. I can understand that it makes sense to separate the traffic where possible, but most of the suggestions start with reducing the space available for cars, rather than first increasing the space for other transport methods and letting the change happen organically.

    Many people have no choice but to drive, they might have a complex schedule that involves getting the kids to school, going to work, running errands for their employer, picking up kids and going to activities etc, or they might just be like me, who’d rather spend 40m a day driving than 4h on public transport. I do occasionally take the public transport to work, if we went for beers afterwards and I took a taxi home.

    The personal motor car is possibly the greatest invention of the 20th century, in terms of the freedom it gives people to move around, to seek work, to better themselves, to spend more time with those they love.

    It comes across that there’s a concerted effort to regress on personal car ownership, for a wide range of different ideological positions. Whether it’s the cycling lobby, the bus lobby, the train lobby, the Uber lobby, the car-as-a-service lobby, or the environmental lobby, is almost irrelevant; the aim is to leave fewer people with the option to just jump in their own car and enjoy the freedom of the road.
    I agree with your entire post - just swap out "car" for "bicycle".

    The key reason that people don't cycle in the UK is that they are scared of getting hit by a car. The "freedom" to cycle around has been eroded by a constant threat of injury or death.

    And car ownership is closely related to wealth. The poor have no choice but to cycle, walk or use public transport. What of their "freedom"?

    Cars are late to this game. People were walking, and then cycling, around our towns and cities long before motorists came along. In the 1950s there was 8x as much cycling as there is now.
    For the vast majority of people, having their own car was massive progress over bikes and horses. Owning a car was aspirational, people with cars are mobile and can go from any major city to another within a day, unbeholden to anyone except themselves.

    I’m all in favour of better roads for those who want to cycle, but most of the cycling campaigners start from the premise that less road should be given over to cars, and work backwards from there.
    Fewer drivers = more road.
    No, more road = more road.

    90% of transportation miles are taken by drivers and that is consistent in pretty much all countries across Europe. This includes cyclists and public transportation.

    You can't induce demand much beyond 90%. And even if cycling in this country were to double and all of those extra cycling miles were removed from driving miles, you'd be removing less than 1% of cars from the road. Which would be entirely negated by population growth being over 1% per annum.
    I've been meaning to ask you.
    Do you like cars?
    Guessing this is sarcasm?

    Of course I do, they're great. Convenient, practical, efficient and they work. They're the best and most efficient form of transportation that exists.

    I also like bikes, they're fun recreationally too.

    The thing is that bikes are not an alternative to cars, in the same way as chocolate cake is not an alternative to a balanced diet.

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.
    Not for 83% of us :)

    More importantly, about 1 in 5 households in Hillingdon (and Havering) manage without any car or van at all. Even in Rishi's Richmondshire, it's 1 in 8.

    So, no- cars are not required. They might be useful, but they're not required. "I want" isn't the same as "I need", as granny used to say.
    Which is bollocks, I lived in slough almost 40 years....in all that time I had precisely 2 jobs in slough, I worked in wantage,epsom,reading,farnborough apart from that. Public transport was only viable for reading. None of those places was cyclable to. Just because you live in an urban area does not mean you will find a job in that urban area
    Here are the figures;

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/choropleth/housing/number-of-cars-or-vans/number-of-cars-3a/no-cars-or-vans-in-household?lad=E06000039

    20 percent of households in Slough.
    Sorry what point are you trying to make here? 80% of slough needs a car?
    No. What I am saying is that Bart's claim,

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.

    is demonstrably untrue. Plenty of functioning adults manage their lives perfectly well without driving a car, ever. On the latest stats, about 1 in 4 adults in England don't have a driving licence.

    That's not the case for everyone, sure. I'm not arguing for no cars at all anywhere, and you'd have to get pretty fringe to get that view.

    What I do think is that cars can be excellent servants, but appalling masters. If we try to put sufficient road and parking space in urban areas, we cut them in pieces and often kill the things that make them good places to live. By making roads less safe and public transport less viable, we (and this includes me) make life demonstrably worse for the 1 in 4 adults who don't drive and the young people who struggle to be independently mobile.

    And the evidence is that, if you create safe networks for walking and cycling, properly away from motorised traffic, people do use them as a serious way of getting bits of their daily business done. Which is good for everyone.
    Plenty of people get about by being passengers in cars yes, or relying upon others who drive cars in order to service their needs instead.

    Very few in modern society have nothing to do with cars, whether it be via being a passenger in one (inc taxis), or getting their post delivered, or parcels delivered, or going to shops which have cars, vans and trucks delivering their supplies.

    Even if you don't drive, you almost certainly have people who are driving assisting you in the way you live on an daily basis. That's how modern society exists and it is all the better for it.

    The evidence is that if you have safe networks for walking and cycling then a miniscule percentage of daily miles/km travelled is done that way, which is absolutely fine, but cars remain the overwhelming majority of transportation.

    Even in tiny Netherlands, the most bike-friendly country in the world, bikes account for single-digit percentage of total km travelled while cars make up over 75%.

    If you want to ride a bike a short distance then good luck to you, but unless you want to go back to 18th century standards of living, we need cars in the real world.

    Er. 'Car' usually means 'private car'. Not delivery van, bus, minibus ... which is sort of the entire theme of all your posts as road warrior in backless gloves in his Rover 2000.
    Actually vans, buses, minibuses, etc are simply different types of cars. And if you order off Amazon or other delivery suppliers then a significant portion of those deliveries are made by someone else's private car anyway. Plus if we're talking about investment in roads, or closing roads, then absolutely all of those vehicles need roads every bit as much as private cars do.

    I've never driven a Rover, nor are my posts remotely road warrior unless you're an absolutely crazy anti-car fanatic - which this site seems to have a completely disproportionate amount of.

    I've been consistently pro opening new roads for improving cycling and other demands which is win/win.

    What I'm against is cutting capacity for over 90% of our transportation without any alternative. Build roads and you can add better cycling and walking capacity absolutely.
    Fact remains, private cars are hopelssly selfish and consume vast amounts of resources compared to communal vehicles of various sorts. Even an Amazon delivery car is dozens of times better than driving to the local bookshop or W H Smiths.
    Load of crap. Private cars consume minimal amounts of resources per mile travelled. They're wonderfully efficient.

    Gram for gram my bike is a less efficient use of resources than my car.
    Remarkable economic and engineering analysis. If it were true ...

    Bujt it's not, because you have the rest of us pay much of the cost.
    It is true. And you haven't paid a single penny towards my vehicle, quite the opposite, my taxes fund so much more than my driving.

    My car weighs approximately 1220 kg. It has done just under 100k miles since I bought it new. I should pass the 100k mark this year.

    So looking at the car weight per mile that is about 82 miles per kg.

    But most of the time I have passengers in the vehicle. 2, 3 and sometimes 4. So let's estimate 250k total passenger miles travelled. That'd mean 205 passenger miles per kg of car weight. And that's disregarding the shopping etc transported too.

    My bike weighs about 10kg and I won't have done more than double digit miles in it. And I've never carried any passengers on my bike.
    I've done ~2k miles on my 10kg bike and ~10k miles in my 2400kg car.

    What do we conclude from that? As with you figures, I'd suggest: "nothing".

    Also, why are you dividing miles by mass? If anything, I'd multiply them for some indication of impact (wear on roads for example, indication of energy expended).
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,208
    Good evening from Bradford bus station! Trains are fecked this evening so I'll be taking road transportation to get me home.

    I hadn't caught a bus since before Covid, and now twice in a week.

    Have been to the pub, so hopefully my bladder will hold out!

    Will pay another visit to the facilities before my "peasant wagon" is due.

    A nice mixture of threat and sadness in the bus station at this time of day. This is the real Red Wall. Tories haven't got a clue.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,771
    edited August 2023

    San Diego is famous for having the same weather day after day. But the weather can vary wildly from one part of California to another.

    Which is what you should expect given the size of the state, and the differences in elevation: "Death Valley's Badwater Basin is the point of lowest elevation in North America, at 282 feet (86 m) below sea level.[1] It is 84.6 miles (136.2 km) east-southeast of Mount Whitney — the highest point in the contiguous United States, with an elevation of 14,505 feet (4,421 m)."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Valley

    As for the snow pack, it is at 100 percent of normal for this time of year. Last winter brought enough snow to break the years-long drought, at least temporarily, much to the relief of most in California.

    (BTW, it isn't unusual for San Francisco to have lower temperatures than Seattle, even though the first is about 800 miles south of the second.)

    Mark Twain's coldest winter was summer in San Francisco

    update: I see RCS got there first
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,135
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    It seems the Tories have scheduled this early part of the holiday season as one when the PM can be doing things each day...

    ...and next, he's off on a holiday to California, just like everyone does at this time of cost of living crisis year.

    If I was Sunak I would have taken my summer holiday in Blackpool or Cornwall certainly, I am sure he will have a great time in California but it is not great PR with an election next year and cost of living still an issue.

    Voters didn't begrudge Blair his Tuscan and Caribbean holidays as the economy was still growing strongly and inflation was low, however when the economy is less good voters don't like PMs in the sun. Callaghan's 'crisis what crisis' remark after returning from holiday in Guadeloupe wasn't rewarded by the voters in 1979 given the high inflation and strikes at the time
    "Crisis what crisis" was a Sun headline, not a Callaghan Quote.

    Sunak holidaying in his Santa Monica house really does add to the impression of the super rich lifestyle of a Non-Dom spouse.

    I honestly don't think floating voters, who are what matters, care at all about a PM's wealth or privileged background, no matter how much the jealous left want them to. Cameron's Bullingdon Club antics were supposed to doom him, as was Johnson's Old Etonian background, but both won. Sunak may well not win, but if not it'll be because of Truss's legacy, or falling living standards or whatever, nothing to do with fabulously wealthy in-laws or where he chooses to holiday.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    kinabalu said:

    What saves Sunak is an Event, dear boy.

    I don't know what sort of Event, but it would have to be a jolly big one. And probably not the one referenced in the Mitchell and Webb "Remain Indoors" sketches.

    But if Rishi goes into the election having to persuade people, it's just not going to work, unless he is using this holiday to have a Complete Personality Transplant operation.

    The 'event' would have to be something big and negative for Labour. Which I don't see because Starmer owns the party now and is taking no risks whatsoever. Absolutely nothing gets out (policy or messaging) that might upset the sort of voters he needs to win and hence is targeting (being red wall leavers and apolitical floaters).
    Its not going to happen as Starmer isn't completely crazy, but if Labour adopted the anti-car attitude shown by many people here in recent days then that could turn every marginal constituency against Labour.

    The election is decided by drivers. Starmer isn't stupid enough to be anti-driver.
    Bart Rockatansky: Beyond Thunderdome
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,364
    edited August 2023
    Selebian said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    .

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    @MattW is the acknowledged expert on cycling infrastructure. I’m sure his predictions that cycling can be expected to triple in coming years is right.

    I’m hopeful about Birmingham and Nottingham too.

    I remember when I posted that it was a shame that cities outside London lacked cyclehire schemes and I was denounced as a cappuccino supping metro elitist.

    A small, but very useful scheme - Brompton offer cycle hire

    https://bromptonhire.com/our-locations/

    A number are next to rail/tube stations.

    I'm seeing on the trains an increasing number of people who've obviously hired one (the colour scheme is quiet, but noticeable) for a day out - train out to somewhere in the country side, unfold and ride.

    For those who don't know them, Brompton folding bikes are allowed on all trains because they are so compact. They are, in addition, very rideable, compared to other small wheel bikes.
    Bromptons are very cool, as well as a British manufacturing success story.
    I have a single speed titanium one with flat bars because that's just how I roll.

    They are not particularly 'rideable' because of a very short mechanical trail distance of 27mm. A normal bicycle has 40-65mm and therefore much stronger castering action. I have ridden mine over 60km in one ride though.
    What's the verdict on cargo ebikes? I'm tempted by something like a Tern or the cheaper Radwagon. Where we live, it'd make sense for me, rather than use the Transporter for a 10 minute drive to town. It'd be a crime to use my hardtail with panniers.
    Terns are I think well-thought of and robust, if somewhat expensive at £3-4k+. ie about 12-18 months of running costs for a small 2nd car.

    You can find E-Cargo bikes from about £1500, or secondhand, and they hold their value well.

    There are also good e-cargo-trikes.

    Some reviews:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-electric-cargo-bikes
    Some reviews of budget ones:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-e-cargo-bikes-under-3000-affordable-electric-bikes-to-do-the-job-of

    I bought my car for £3,000, and it can carry a family of five and all of their luggage for a fortnight away. Plus the dog.

    And the bike won’t go 80mph, do. 0-60 in six seconds, or make V8 noises. ULEZ compliant as well.
    (It’s a later model of this)
    [Picture of dog required for scale]
    Okay, nicked off the internet.
    (This is a later model of car)
    [Scale now obtained. Thank you, @Sandpit]
    As I always say, it's not a competition.

    What is your annual running cost, btw? *innocent face*
    Okay, I’ll bite.

    I’ve previously lived in places where work and home were 400m apart, and home was 100m from the station. Brilliant. No need for a car, take a taxi or rent one when required.

    Right now, I live 25km from work, and the journey is pretty much impossible by anything other than car. It’s 20m in the car, or nearly 2h by public transport (walk, bus, train, train, walk, boat, walk).

    The problem I have, is trying to fit one-size-fits-all solutions into a diverse population. People will change jobs, and transport methods that worked with old job no longer work with new job. Not just jobs either, people have regular appointments with schools, shops, social events, that can change over time.

    Having a car is a sunk cost; not just for the car, but for insurance, VED, servicing etc. Owning a house is an even bigger sunk cost; it’s often easier to accept an hour’s commute than to commit to spending five figures on moving house, even assuming that a similar house near new job can be purchased for similar money to the one you have already.

    Once you have a car the marginal cost of a single extra journey is tiny, compared to the cost of a bus or train journey for more than one person. If you’re on your own, the cost is about the same, but the difference in time and exposure to the weather is significantly different.

    The impression given by those wanting to increase cycling, is that it starts with a dislike of cars. Now, there’s silly drivers and silly cyclists out there, and the cyclists are in the more vulnerable position if there’s a collision between the two. I can understand that it makes sense to separate the traffic where possible, but most of the suggestions start with reducing the space available for cars, rather than first increasing the space for other transport methods and letting the change happen organically.

    Many people have no choice but to drive, they might have a complex schedule that involves getting the kids to school, going to work, running errands for their employer, picking up kids and going to activities etc, or they might just be like me, who’d rather spend 40m a day driving than 4h on public transport. I do occasionally take the public transport to work, if we went for beers afterwards and I took a taxi home.

    The personal motor car is possibly the greatest invention of the 20th century, in terms of the freedom it gives people to move around, to seek work, to better themselves, to spend more time with those they love.

    It comes across that there’s a concerted effort to regress on personal car ownership, for a wide range of different ideological positions. Whether it’s the cycling lobby, the bus lobby, the train lobby, the Uber lobby, the car-as-a-service lobby, or the environmental lobby, is almost irrelevant; the aim is to leave fewer people with the option to just jump in their own car and enjoy the freedom of the road.
    I agree with your entire post - just swap out "car" for "bicycle".

    The key reason that people don't cycle in the UK is that they are scared of getting hit by a car. The "freedom" to cycle around has been eroded by a constant threat of injury or death.

    And car ownership is closely related to wealth. The poor have no choice but to cycle, walk or use public transport. What of their "freedom"?

    Cars are late to this game. People were walking, and then cycling, around our towns and cities long before motorists came along. In the 1950s there was 8x as much cycling as there is now.
    For the vast majority of people, having their own car was massive progress over bikes and horses. Owning a car was aspirational, people with cars are mobile and can go from any major city to another within a day, unbeholden to anyone except themselves.

    I’m all in favour of better roads for those who want to cycle, but most of the cycling campaigners start from the premise that less road should be given over to cars, and work backwards from there.
    Fewer drivers = more road.
    No, more road = more road.

    90% of transportation miles are taken by drivers and that is consistent in pretty much all countries across Europe. This includes cyclists and public transportation.

    You can't induce demand much beyond 90%. And even if cycling in this country were to double and all of those extra cycling miles were removed from driving miles, you'd be removing less than 1% of cars from the road. Which would be entirely negated by population growth being over 1% per annum.
    I've been meaning to ask you.
    Do you like cars?
    Guessing this is sarcasm?

    Of course I do, they're great. Convenient, practical, efficient and they work. They're the best and most efficient form of transportation that exists.

    I also like bikes, they're fun recreationally too.

    The thing is that bikes are not an alternative to cars, in the same way as chocolate cake is not an alternative to a balanced diet.

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.
    Not for 83% of us :)

    More importantly, about 1 in 5 households in Hillingdon (and Havering) manage without any car or van at all. Even in Rishi's Richmondshire, it's 1 in 8.

    So, no- cars are not required. They might be useful, but they're not required. "I want" isn't the same as "I need", as granny used to say.
    Which is bollocks, I lived in slough almost 40 years....in all that time I had precisely 2 jobs in slough, I worked in wantage,epsom,reading,farnborough apart from that. Public transport was only viable for reading. None of those places was cyclable to. Just because you live in an urban area does not mean you will find a job in that urban area
    Here are the figures;

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/choropleth/housing/number-of-cars-or-vans/number-of-cars-3a/no-cars-or-vans-in-household?lad=E06000039

    20 percent of households in Slough.
    Sorry what point are you trying to make here? 80% of slough needs a car?
    No. What I am saying is that Bart's claim,

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.

    is demonstrably untrue. Plenty of functioning adults manage their lives perfectly well without driving a car, ever. On the latest stats, about 1 in 4 adults in England don't have a driving licence.

    That's not the case for everyone, sure. I'm not arguing for no cars at all anywhere, and you'd have to get pretty fringe to get that view.

    What I do think is that cars can be excellent servants, but appalling masters. If we try to put sufficient road and parking space in urban areas, we cut them in pieces and often kill the things that make them good places to live. By making roads less safe and public transport less viable, we (and this includes me) make life demonstrably worse for the 1 in 4 adults who don't drive and the young people who struggle to be independently mobile.

    And the evidence is that, if you create safe networks for walking and cycling, properly away from motorised traffic, people do use them as a serious way of getting bits of their daily business done. Which is good for everyone.
    Plenty of people get about by being passengers in cars yes, or relying upon others who drive cars in order to service their needs instead.

    Very few in modern society have nothing to do with cars, whether it be via being a passenger in one (inc taxis), or getting their post delivered, or parcels delivered, or going to shops which have cars, vans and trucks delivering their supplies.

    Even if you don't drive, you almost certainly have people who are driving assisting you in the way you live on an daily basis. That's how modern society exists and it is all the better for it.

    The evidence is that if you have safe networks for walking and cycling then a miniscule percentage of daily miles/km travelled is done that way, which is absolutely fine, but cars remain the overwhelming majority of transportation.

    Even in tiny Netherlands, the most bike-friendly country in the world, bikes account for single-digit percentage of total km travelled while cars make up over 75%.

    If you want to ride a bike a short distance then good luck to you, but unless you want to go back to 18th century standards of living, we need cars in the real world.

    Er. 'Car' usually means 'private car'. Not delivery van, bus, minibus ... which is sort of the entire theme of all your posts as road warrior in backless gloves in his Rover 2000.
    Actually vans, buses, minibuses, etc are simply different types of cars. And if you order off Amazon or other delivery suppliers then a significant portion of those deliveries are made by someone else's private car anyway. Plus if we're talking about investment in roads, or closing roads, then absolutely all of those vehicles need roads every bit as much as private cars do.

    I've never driven a Rover, nor are my posts remotely road warrior unless you're an absolutely crazy anti-car fanatic - which this site seems to have a completely disproportionate amount of.

    I've been consistently pro opening new roads for improving cycling and other demands which is win/win.

    What I'm against is cutting capacity for over 90% of our transportation without any alternative. Build roads and you can add better cycling and walking capacity absolutely.
    Fact remains, private cars are hopelssly selfish and consume vast amounts of resources compared to communal vehicles of various sorts. Even an Amazon delivery car is dozens of times better than driving to the local bookshop or W H Smiths.
    Load of crap. Private cars consume minimal amounts of resources per mile travelled. They're wonderfully efficient.

    Gram for gram my bike is a less efficient use of resources than my car.
    Remarkable economic and engineering analysis. If it were true ...

    Bujt it's not, because you have the rest of us pay much of the cost.
    It is true. And you haven't paid a single penny towards my vehicle, quite the opposite, my taxes fund so much more than my driving.

    My car weighs approximately 1220 kg. It has done just under 100k miles since I bought it new. I should pass the 100k mark this year.

    So looking at the car weight per mile that is about 82 miles per kg.

    But most of the time I have passengers in the vehicle. 2, 3 and sometimes 4. So let's estimate 250k total passenger miles travelled. That'd mean 205 passenger miles per kg of car weight. And that's disregarding the shopping etc transported too.

    My bike weighs about 10kg and I won't have done more than double digit miles in it. And I've never carried any passengers on my bike.
    I've done ~2k miles on my 10kg bike and ~10k miles in my 2400kg car.

    What do we conclude from that? As with you figures, I'd suggest: "nothing".

    Also, why are you dividing miles by mass? If anything, I'd multiply them for some indication of impact (wear on roads for example, indication of energy expended).
    Would make more sense to *multiply* mass x distance. And note he's omitting the car's own weight in that equation, or rather indeed using it as a divider. Which is cheating.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,208
    Leon said:

    STOP FUCKING MOANING, YOU COULD BE IN UKRAINE

    Fuck you! I'm stuck in Bradford!
  • viewcode said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    The biggest change Sunak needs is for inflation to keep falling. The less voters are worried about cost of living the less they will feel a need to change government, some tax cuts too once that is done would also help swing undecideds back to the Tories

    "inflation falls" does not mean "cheaper prices"; in the current context it means "prices that have already gone up a lot more than wages and which are still going up".
    Very good point. If inflation falls to 5% Sunak will say 'my promise has been delivered' while Joe Public is still seeing everything costing more than it did last year.
    There's a great deal of deliberate obfuscation of the first and second order derivatives of the price variablewith the price variable itself in Toryspeak at the moment. In fact there has been a great deal for the last year or so since inflation became even more of an issue than usual. But, ass you say, it risks being counterproductive.
    Similarly with the deliberate use of 'debt' when they (presumably*) mean deficit, although public deficit/debt is less in voters' faces than inflation.

    (*Because no way is debt going to reduce in the lifetime of this parliament.)
    Actually they do mean debt. The debt ratio specifically.

    Debt to GDP falling is the target.
    Isn't the question whether interest on the debt is increasing faster than the tax take?
    No, because Governments are supposed to look at the long term and in the long term interest is variable and if debt has risen faster than GDP then when interest rise you will suddenly be paying much more than you were before.

    Debt to GDP is the rational level to look at. Just like with house prices its price to income ratios that matter and people who overexpose themselves to debt are in trouble when the interest rate changes.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,679

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    .

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    @MattW is the acknowledged expert on cycling infrastructure. I’m sure his predictions that cycling can be expected to triple in coming years is right.

    I’m hopeful about Birmingham and Nottingham too.

    I remember when I posted that it was a shame that cities outside London lacked cyclehire schemes and I was denounced as a cappuccino supping metro elitist.

    A small, but very useful scheme - Brompton offer cycle hire

    https://bromptonhire.com/our-locations/

    A number are next to rail/tube stations.

    I'm seeing on the trains an increasing number of people who've obviously hired one (the colour scheme is quiet, but noticeable) for a day out - train out to somewhere in the country side, unfold and ride.

    For those who don't know them, Brompton folding bikes are allowed on all trains because they are so compact. They are, in addition, very rideable, compared to other small wheel bikes.
    Bromptons are very cool, as well as a British manufacturing success story.
    I have a single speed titanium one with flat bars because that's just how I roll.

    They are not particularly 'rideable' because of a very short mechanical trail distance of 27mm. A normal bicycle has 40-65mm and therefore much stronger castering action. I have ridden mine over 60km in one ride though.
    What's the verdict on cargo ebikes? I'm tempted by something like a Tern or the cheaper Radwagon. Where we live, it'd make sense for me, rather than use the Transporter for a 10 minute drive to town. It'd be a crime to use my hardtail with panniers.
    Terns are I think well-thought of and robust, if somewhat expensive at £3-4k+. ie about 12-18 months of running costs for a small 2nd car.

    You can find E-Cargo bikes from about £1500, or secondhand, and they hold their value well.

    There are also good e-cargo-trikes.

    Some reviews:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-electric-cargo-bikes
    Some reviews of budget ones:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-e-cargo-bikes-under-3000-affordable-electric-bikes-to-do-the-job-of

    I bought my car for £3,000, and it can carry a family of five and all of their luggage for a fortnight away. Plus the dog.

    And the bike won’t go 80mph, do. 0-60 in six seconds, or make V8 noises. ULEZ compliant as well.
    (It’s a later model of this)
    [Picture of dog required for scale]
    Okay, nicked off the internet.
    (This is a later model of car)
    [Scale now obtained. Thank you, @Sandpit]
    As I always say, it's not a competition.

    What is your annual running cost, btw? *innocent face*
    Okay, I’ll bite.

    I’ve previously lived in places where work and home were 400m apart, and home was 100m from the station. Brilliant. No need for a car, take a taxi or rent one when required.

    Right now, I live 25km from work, and the journey is pretty much impossible by anything other than car. It’s 20m in the car, or nearly 2h by public transport (walk, bus, train, train, walk, boat, walk).

    The problem I have, is trying to fit one-size-fits-all solutions into a diverse population. People will change jobs, and transport methods that worked with old job no longer work with new job. Not just jobs either, people have regular appointments with schools, shops, social events, that can change over time.

    Having a car is a sunk cost; not just for the car, but for insurance, VED, servicing etc. Owning a house is an even bigger sunk cost; it’s often easier to accept an hour’s commute than to commit to spending five figures on moving house, even assuming that a similar house near new job can be purchased for similar money to the one you have already.

    Once you have a car the marginal cost of a single extra journey is tiny, compared to the cost of a bus or train journey for more than one person. If you’re on your own, the cost is about the same, but the difference in time and exposure to the weather is significantly different.

    The impression given by those wanting to increase cycling, is that it starts with a dislike of cars. Now, there’s silly drivers and silly cyclists out there, and the cyclists are in the more vulnerable position if there’s a collision between the two. I can understand that it makes sense to separate the traffic where possible, but most of the suggestions start with reducing the space available for cars, rather than first increasing the space for other transport methods and letting the change happen organically.

    Many people have no choice but to drive, they might have a complex schedule that involves getting the kids to school, going to work, running errands for their employer, picking up kids and going to activities etc, or they might just be like me, who’d rather spend 40m a day driving than 4h on public transport. I do occasionally take the public transport to work, if we went for beers afterwards and I took a taxi home.

    The personal motor car is possibly the greatest invention of the 20th century, in terms of the freedom it gives people to move around, to seek work, to better themselves, to spend more time with those they love.

    It comes across that there’s a concerted effort to regress on personal car ownership, for a wide range of different ideological positions. Whether it’s the cycling lobby, the bus lobby, the train lobby, the Uber lobby, the car-as-a-service lobby, or the environmental lobby, is almost irrelevant; the aim is to leave fewer people with the option to just jump in their own car and enjoy the freedom of the road.
    I agree with your entire post - just swap out "car" for "bicycle".

    The key reason that people don't cycle in the UK is that they are scared of getting hit by a car. The "freedom" to cycle around has been eroded by a constant threat of injury or death.

    And car ownership is closely related to wealth. The poor have no choice but to cycle, walk or use public transport. What of their "freedom"?

    Cars are late to this game. People were walking, and then cycling, around our towns and cities long before motorists came along. In the 1950s there was 8x as much cycling as there is now.
    For the vast majority of people, having their own car was massive progress over bikes and horses. Owning a car was aspirational, people with cars are mobile and can go from any major city to another within a day, unbeholden to anyone except themselves.

    I’m all in favour of better roads for those who want to cycle, but most of the cycling campaigners start from the premise that less road should be given over to cars, and work backwards from there.
    Fewer drivers = more road.
    No, more road = more road.

    90% of transportation miles are taken by drivers and that is consistent in pretty much all countries across Europe. This includes cyclists and public transportation.

    You can't induce demand much beyond 90%. And even if cycling in this country were to double and all of those extra cycling miles were removed from driving miles, you'd be removing less than 1% of cars from the road. Which would be entirely negated by population growth being over 1% per annum.
    I've been meaning to ask you.
    Do you like cars?
    Guessing this is sarcasm?

    Of course I do, they're great. Convenient, practical, efficient and they work. They're the best and most efficient form of transportation that exists.

    I also like bikes, they're fun recreationally too.

    The thing is that bikes are not an alternative to cars, in the same way as chocolate cake is not an alternative to a balanced diet.

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.
    Not for 83% of us :)

    More importantly, about 1 in 5 households in Hillingdon (and Havering) manage without any car or van at all. Even in Rishi's Richmondshire, it's 1 in 8.

    So, no- cars are not required. They might be useful, but they're not required. "I want" isn't the same as "I need", as granny used to say.
    Which is bollocks, I lived in slough almost 40 years....in all that time I had precisely 2 jobs in slough, I worked in wantage,epsom,reading,farnborough apart from that. Public transport was only viable for reading. None of those places was cyclable to. Just because you live in an urban area does not mean you will find a job in that urban area
    Here are the figures;

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/choropleth/housing/number-of-cars-or-vans/number-of-cars-3a/no-cars-or-vans-in-household?lad=E06000039

    20 percent of households in Slough.
    Sorry what point are you trying to make here? 80% of slough needs a car?
    No. What I am saying is that Bart's claim,

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.

    is demonstrably untrue. Plenty of functioning adults manage their lives perfectly well without driving a car, ever. On the latest stats, about 1 in 4 adults in England don't have a driving licence.

    That's not the case for everyone, sure. I'm not arguing for no cars at all anywhere, and you'd have to get pretty fringe to get that view.

    What I do think is that cars can be excellent servants, but appalling masters. If we try to put sufficient road and parking space in urban areas, we cut them in pieces and often kill the things that make them good places to live. By making roads less safe and public transport less viable, we (and this includes me) make life demonstrably worse for the 1 in 4 adults who don't drive and the young people who struggle to be independently mobile.

    And the evidence is that, if you create safe networks for walking and cycling, properly away from motorised traffic, people do use them as a serious way of getting bits of their daily business done. Which is good for everyone.
    Plenty of people get about by being passengers in cars yes, or relying upon others who drive cars in order to service their needs instead.

    Very few in modern society have nothing to do with cars, whether it be via being a passenger in one (inc taxis), or getting their post delivered, or parcels delivered, or going to shops which have cars, vans and trucks delivering their supplies.

    Even if you don't drive, you almost certainly have people who are driving assisting you in the way you live on an daily basis. That's how modern society exists and it is all the better for it.

    The evidence is that if you have safe networks for walking and cycling then a miniscule percentage of daily miles/km travelled is done that way, which is absolutely fine, but cars remain the overwhelming majority of transportation.

    Even in tiny Netherlands, the most bike-friendly country in the world, bikes account for single-digit percentage of total km travelled while cars make up over 75%.

    If you want to ride a bike a short distance then good luck to you, but unless you want to go back to 18th century standards of living, we need cars in the real world.

    Er. 'Car' usually means 'private car'. Not delivery van, bus, minibus ... which is sort of the entire theme of all your posts as road warrior in backless gloves in his Rover 2000.
    Actually vans, buses, minibuses, etc are simply different types of cars. And if you order off Amazon or other delivery suppliers then a significant portion of those deliveries are made by someone else's private car anyway. Plus if we're talking about investment in roads, or closing roads, then absolutely all of those vehicles need roads every bit as much as private cars do.

    I've never driven a Rover, nor are my posts remotely road warrior unless you're an absolutely crazy anti-car fanatic - which this site seems to have a completely disproportionate amount of.

    I've been consistently pro opening new roads for improving cycling and other demands which is win/win.

    What I'm against is cutting capacity for over 90% of our transportation without any alternative. Build roads and you can add better cycling and walking capacity absolutely.
    Fact remains, private cars are hopelssly selfish and consume vast amounts of resources compared to communal vehicles of various sorts. Even an Amazon delivery car is dozens of times better than driving to the local bookshop or W H Smiths.
    Load of crap. Private cars consume minimal amounts of resources per mile travelled. They're wonderfully efficient.

    Gram for gram my bike is a less efficient use of resources than my car.
    Remarkable economic and engineering analysis. If it were true ...

    Bujt it's not, because you have the rest of us pay much of the cost.
    It is true. And you haven't paid a single penny towards my vehicle, quite the opposite, my taxes fund so much more than my driving.

    My car weighs approximately 1220 kg. It has done just under 100k miles since I bought it new. I should pass the 100k mark this year.

    So looking at the car weight per mile that is about 82 miles per kg.

    But most of the time I have passengers in the vehicle. 2, 3 and sometimes 4. So let's estimate 250k total passenger miles travelled. That'd mean 205 passenger miles per kg of car weight. And that's disregarding the shopping etc transported too.

    My bike weighs about 10kg and I won't have done more than double digit miles in it. And I've never carried any passengers on my bike.
    On the contrary, you would be paying most of those taxes anyway with or withotu a car. Those taxes and charges directly attributable to having a car don't pay your way. And I am therefore certainly subsidising you as I don't have a car.
    What the hell are you talking about? If you don't have a car then I am massively subsidising you. You should be grateful.

    The billions of profit that HMRC gets from taxes on drivers make us the golden geese. Hopefully with the switchover from fuel to electricity this will end and you can start paying your share, but I don't expect it and won't hold my breath.
    Cars aren't all bad but you shouldn't pretend you're doing everyone a favour when you're driving around in one. You aren't.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,727
    edited August 2023

    Leon said:

    STOP FUCKING MOANING, YOU COULD BE IN UKRAINE

    Fuck you! I'm stuck in Bradford!
    So is the whole of Ilkley...
  • Carnyx said:

    Selebian said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    .

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    @MattW is the acknowledged expert on cycling infrastructure. I’m sure his predictions that cycling can be expected to triple in coming years is right.

    I’m hopeful about Birmingham and Nottingham too.

    I remember when I posted that it was a shame that cities outside London lacked cyclehire schemes and I was denounced as a cappuccino supping metro elitist.

    A small, but very useful scheme - Brompton offer cycle hire

    https://bromptonhire.com/our-locations/

    A number are next to rail/tube stations.

    I'm seeing on the trains an increasing number of people who've obviously hired one (the colour scheme is quiet, but noticeable) for a day out - train out to somewhere in the country side, unfold and ride.

    For those who don't know them, Brompton folding bikes are allowed on all trains because they are so compact. They are, in addition, very rideable, compared to other small wheel bikes.
    Bromptons are very cool, as well as a British manufacturing success story.
    I have a single speed titanium one with flat bars because that's just how I roll.

    They are not particularly 'rideable' because of a very short mechanical trail distance of 27mm. A normal bicycle has 40-65mm and therefore much stronger castering action. I have ridden mine over 60km in one ride though.
    What's the verdict on cargo ebikes? I'm tempted by something like a Tern or the cheaper Radwagon. Where we live, it'd make sense for me, rather than use the Transporter for a 10 minute drive to town. It'd be a crime to use my hardtail with panniers.
    Terns are I think well-thought of and robust, if somewhat expensive at £3-4k+. ie about 12-18 months of running costs for a small 2nd car.

    You can find E-Cargo bikes from about £1500, or secondhand, and they hold their value well.

    There are also good e-cargo-trikes.

    Some reviews:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-electric-cargo-bikes
    Some reviews of budget ones:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-e-cargo-bikes-under-3000-affordable-electric-bikes-to-do-the-job-of

    I bought my car for £3,000, and it can carry a family of five and all of their luggage for a fortnight away. Plus the dog.

    And the bike won’t go 80mph, do. 0-60 in six seconds, or make V8 noises. ULEZ compliant as well.
    (It’s a later model of this)
    [Picture of dog required for scale]
    Okay, nicked off the internet.
    (This is a later model of car)
    [Scale now obtained. Thank you, @Sandpit]
    As I always say, it's not a competition.

    What is your annual running cost, btw? *innocent face*
    Okay, I’ll bite.

    I’ve previously lived in places where work and home were 400m apart, and home was 100m from the station. Brilliant. No need for a car, take a taxi or rent one when required.

    Right now, I live 25km from work, and the journey is pretty much impossible by anything other than car. It’s 20m in the car, or nearly 2h by public transport (walk, bus, train, train, walk, boat, walk).

    The problem I have, is trying to fit one-size-fits-all solutions into a diverse population. People will change jobs, and transport methods that worked with old job no longer work with new job. Not just jobs either, people have regular appointments with schools, shops, social events, that can change over time.

    Having a car is a sunk cost; not just for the car, but for insurance, VED, servicing etc. Owning a house is an even bigger sunk cost; it’s often easier to accept an hour’s commute than to commit to spending five figures on moving house, even assuming that a similar house near new job can be purchased for similar money to the one you have already.

    Once you have a car the marginal cost of a single extra journey is tiny, compared to the cost of a bus or train journey for more than one person. If you’re on your own, the cost is about the same, but the difference in time and exposure to the weather is significantly different.

    The impression given by those wanting to increase cycling, is that it starts with a dislike of cars. Now, there’s silly drivers and silly cyclists out there, and the cyclists are in the more vulnerable position if there’s a collision between the two. I can understand that it makes sense to separate the traffic where possible, but most of the suggestions start with reducing the space available for cars, rather than first increasing the space for other transport methods and letting the change happen organically.

    Many people have no choice but to drive, they might have a complex schedule that involves getting the kids to school, going to work, running errands for their employer, picking up kids and going to activities etc, or they might just be like me, who’d rather spend 40m a day driving than 4h on public transport. I do occasionally take the public transport to work, if we went for beers afterwards and I took a taxi home.

    The personal motor car is possibly the greatest invention of the 20th century, in terms of the freedom it gives people to move around, to seek work, to better themselves, to spend more time with those they love.

    It comes across that there’s a concerted effort to regress on personal car ownership, for a wide range of different ideological positions. Whether it’s the cycling lobby, the bus lobby, the train lobby, the Uber lobby, the car-as-a-service lobby, or the environmental lobby, is almost irrelevant; the aim is to leave fewer people with the option to just jump in their own car and enjoy the freedom of the road.
    I agree with your entire post - just swap out "car" for "bicycle".

    The key reason that people don't cycle in the UK is that they are scared of getting hit by a car. The "freedom" to cycle around has been eroded by a constant threat of injury or death.

    And car ownership is closely related to wealth. The poor have no choice but to cycle, walk or use public transport. What of their "freedom"?

    Cars are late to this game. People were walking, and then cycling, around our towns and cities long before motorists came along. In the 1950s there was 8x as much cycling as there is now.
    For the vast majority of people, having their own car was massive progress over bikes and horses. Owning a car was aspirational, people with cars are mobile and can go from any major city to another within a day, unbeholden to anyone except themselves.

    I’m all in favour of better roads for those who want to cycle, but most of the cycling campaigners start from the premise that less road should be given over to cars, and work backwards from there.
    Fewer drivers = more road.
    No, more road = more road.

    90% of transportation miles are taken by drivers and that is consistent in pretty much all countries across Europe. This includes cyclists and public transportation.

    You can't induce demand much beyond 90%. And even if cycling in this country were to double and all of those extra cycling miles were removed from driving miles, you'd be removing less than 1% of cars from the road. Which would be entirely negated by population growth being over 1% per annum.
    I've been meaning to ask you.
    Do you like cars?
    Guessing this is sarcasm?

    Of course I do, they're great. Convenient, practical, efficient and they work. They're the best and most efficient form of transportation that exists.

    I also like bikes, they're fun recreationally too.

    The thing is that bikes are not an alternative to cars, in the same way as chocolate cake is not an alternative to a balanced diet.

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.
    Not for 83% of us :)

    More importantly, about 1 in 5 households in Hillingdon (and Havering) manage without any car or van at all. Even in Rishi's Richmondshire, it's 1 in 8.

    So, no- cars are not required. They might be useful, but they're not required. "I want" isn't the same as "I need", as granny used to say.
    Which is bollocks, I lived in slough almost 40 years....in all that time I had precisely 2 jobs in slough, I worked in wantage,epsom,reading,farnborough apart from that. Public transport was only viable for reading. None of those places was cyclable to. Just because you live in an urban area does not mean you will find a job in that urban area
    Here are the figures;

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/choropleth/housing/number-of-cars-or-vans/number-of-cars-3a/no-cars-or-vans-in-household?lad=E06000039

    20 percent of households in Slough.
    Sorry what point are you trying to make here? 80% of slough needs a car?
    No. What I am saying is that Bart's claim,

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.

    is demonstrably untrue. Plenty of functioning adults manage their lives perfectly well without driving a car, ever. On the latest stats, about 1 in 4 adults in England don't have a driving licence.

    That's not the case for everyone, sure. I'm not arguing for no cars at all anywhere, and you'd have to get pretty fringe to get that view.

    What I do think is that cars can be excellent servants, but appalling masters. If we try to put sufficient road and parking space in urban areas, we cut them in pieces and often kill the things that make them good places to live. By making roads less safe and public transport less viable, we (and this includes me) make life demonstrably worse for the 1 in 4 adults who don't drive and the young people who struggle to be independently mobile.

    And the evidence is that, if you create safe networks for walking and cycling, properly away from motorised traffic, people do use them as a serious way of getting bits of their daily business done. Which is good for everyone.
    Plenty of people get about by being passengers in cars yes, or relying upon others who drive cars in order to service their needs instead.

    Very few in modern society have nothing to do with cars, whether it be via being a passenger in one (inc taxis), or getting their post delivered, or parcels delivered, or going to shops which have cars, vans and trucks delivering their supplies.

    Even if you don't drive, you almost certainly have people who are driving assisting you in the way you live on an daily basis. That's how modern society exists and it is all the better for it.

    The evidence is that if you have safe networks for walking and cycling then a miniscule percentage of daily miles/km travelled is done that way, which is absolutely fine, but cars remain the overwhelming majority of transportation.

    Even in tiny Netherlands, the most bike-friendly country in the world, bikes account for single-digit percentage of total km travelled while cars make up over 75%.

    If you want to ride a bike a short distance then good luck to you, but unless you want to go back to 18th century standards of living, we need cars in the real world.

    Er. 'Car' usually means 'private car'. Not delivery van, bus, minibus ... which is sort of the entire theme of all your posts as road warrior in backless gloves in his Rover 2000.
    Actually vans, buses, minibuses, etc are simply different types of cars. And if you order off Amazon or other delivery suppliers then a significant portion of those deliveries are made by someone else's private car anyway. Plus if we're talking about investment in roads, or closing roads, then absolutely all of those vehicles need roads every bit as much as private cars do.

    I've never driven a Rover, nor are my posts remotely road warrior unless you're an absolutely crazy anti-car fanatic - which this site seems to have a completely disproportionate amount of.

    I've been consistently pro opening new roads for improving cycling and other demands which is win/win.

    What I'm against is cutting capacity for over 90% of our transportation without any alternative. Build roads and you can add better cycling and walking capacity absolutely.
    Fact remains, private cars are hopelssly selfish and consume vast amounts of resources compared to communal vehicles of various sorts. Even an Amazon delivery car is dozens of times better than driving to the local bookshop or W H Smiths.
    Load of crap. Private cars consume minimal amounts of resources per mile travelled. They're wonderfully efficient.

    Gram for gram my bike is a less efficient use of resources than my car.
    Remarkable economic and engineering analysis. If it were true ...

    Bujt it's not, because you have the rest of us pay much of the cost.
    It is true. And you haven't paid a single penny towards my vehicle, quite the opposite, my taxes fund so much more than my driving.

    My car weighs approximately 1220 kg. It has done just under 100k miles since I bought it new. I should pass the 100k mark this year.

    So looking at the car weight per mile that is about 82 miles per kg.

    But most of the time I have passengers in the vehicle. 2, 3 and sometimes 4. So let's estimate 250k total passenger miles travelled. That'd mean 205 passenger miles per kg of car weight. And that's disregarding the shopping etc transported too.

    My bike weighs about 10kg and I won't have done more than double digit miles in it. And I've never carried any passengers on my bike.
    I've done ~2k miles on my 10kg bike and ~10k miles in my 2400kg car.

    What do we conclude from that? As with you figures, I'd suggest: "nothing".

    Also, why are you dividing miles by mass? If anything, I'd multiply them for some indication of impact (wear on roads for example, indication of energy expended).
    Would make more sense to *multiply* mass x distance. And note he's omitting the car's own weight in that equation, or rather indeed using it as a divider. Which is cheating.
    Its not cheating, it is a divisor. I said that gram for gram my car is more efficient and it is, you need to divide distance by mass to calculate the distance travelled per kg of the vehicle.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,352
    viewcode said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    My Rutherglen & Hamilton West post on whether there is anything unusual to be gleaned from the Local Elections.

    So my normal approach would be to base on the LE22 round and then see if there is any forward facing data since then

    Rutherglen & Hamilton West LE22 gave:
    SNP 39.2 (-5.0 on GE19)
    Lab 34.1 (-0.4)
    Con 11.0 (-4.0)
    LD 11.0 (+5.8)
    Others (mainly Green) 4.6 (+3.4)

    To my eyes a lot of the movement here is that of an STV election vs an FPTP election, a lot of that lost SNP vote is hidden in Others and likely to return as at this point.

    So, LE22 is not too far away from GE19.

    In terms of actual election swings since then, there have been 5 local by-elections in Scotland this year, 3 with Labour as the challengers. Swings away from the SNP on the first vote have been steady and consistent:

    In Stirling SNP to Con challenger swing was 5.5%
    In Edinburgh SNP to LD swing was 6%
    In Aberdeen SNP to Lab was 9%
    In the Lanarkshires (though neither in this constituency) SNP to Lab were 11 and 13.5% respectively.

    I don't know if it's the somewhat evened out political environment, large multi member wards, full slates of candidates, STV or what, but Scottish local elections and by elections, outside the Independent lands at least, show little of the madness that is often on show in England. Whenever I look things seem smooth, indicative and fairly well aligned with the polls.

    If a 10ish% swing to Labour does not materialize, I think that will reflect back something hitherto unknown about the Scottish attitudes to GE24 and would be far more telling than Uxbridge ever was. Labour need the boring result that every indicator suggests will happen. The chance of that is non-zero, this will be the first politician sent to London from Scotland since Airdrie and Shotts returned Anum Qaisar in sunnier SNP days.



    Curse of the long post / new thread
    Please don't think me stupid, but the salient point did rather get lost in the detail. Do you think Labour will win Rutherglen and Hamilton or not?
    Fair cop. That non-zero sentence didn't quite do the job.

    The boring result seems the most likely (broadly Labour winning by a similar or slightly smaller % margin than the current SNP margin), but there is a non-zero chance of some Scottish reaction against London Labour, and the earlier quoted 10/1 on the SNP seems modest value to me.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 22,399
    edited August 2023
    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    .

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    @MattW is the acknowledged expert on cycling infrastructure. I’m sure his predictions that cycling can be expected to triple in coming years is right.

    I’m hopeful about Birmingham and Nottingham too.

    I remember when I posted that it was a shame that cities outside London lacked cyclehire schemes and I was denounced as a cappuccino supping metro elitist.

    A small, but very useful scheme - Brompton offer cycle hire

    https://bromptonhire.com/our-locations/

    A number are next to rail/tube stations.

    I'm seeing on the trains an increasing number of people who've obviously hired one (the colour scheme is quiet, but noticeable) for a day out - train out to somewhere in the country side, unfold and ride.

    For those who don't know them, Brompton folding bikes are allowed on all trains because they are so compact. They are, in addition, very rideable, compared to other small wheel bikes.
    Bromptons are very cool, as well as a British manufacturing success story.
    I have a single speed titanium one with flat bars because that's just how I roll.

    They are not particularly 'rideable' because of a very short mechanical trail distance of 27mm. A normal bicycle has 40-65mm and therefore much stronger castering action. I have ridden mine over 60km in one ride though.
    What's the verdict on cargo ebikes? I'm tempted by something like a Tern or the cheaper Radwagon. Where we live, it'd make sense for me, rather than use the Transporter for a 10 minute drive to town. It'd be a crime to use my hardtail with panniers.
    Terns are I think well-thought of and robust, if somewhat expensive at £3-4k+. ie about 12-18 months of running costs for a small 2nd car.

    You can find E-Cargo bikes from about £1500, or secondhand, and they hold their value well.

    There are also good e-cargo-trikes.

    Some reviews:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-electric-cargo-bikes
    Some reviews of budget ones:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-e-cargo-bikes-under-3000-affordable-electric-bikes-to-do-the-job-of

    I bought my car for £3,000, and it can carry a family of five and all of their luggage for a fortnight away. Plus the dog.

    And the bike won’t go 80mph, do. 0-60 in six seconds, or make V8 noises. ULEZ compliant as well.
    (It’s a later model of this)
    [Picture of dog required for scale]
    Okay, nicked off the internet.
    (This is a later model of car)
    [Scale now obtained. Thank you, @Sandpit]
    As I always say, it's not a competition.

    What is your annual running cost, btw? *innocent face*
    Okay, I’ll bite.

    I’ve previously lived in places where work and home were 400m apart, and home was 100m from the station. Brilliant. No need for a car, take a taxi or rent one when required.

    Right now, I live 25km from work, and the journey is pretty much impossible by anything other than car. It’s 20m in the car, or nearly 2h by public transport (walk, bus, train, train, walk, boat, walk).

    The problem I have, is trying to fit one-size-fits-all solutions into a diverse population. People will change jobs, and transport methods that worked with old job no longer work with new job. Not just jobs either, people have regular appointments with schools, shops, social events, that can change over time.

    Having a car is a sunk cost; not just for the car, but for insurance, VED, servicing etc. Owning a house is an even bigger sunk cost; it’s often easier to accept an hour’s commute than to commit to spending five figures on moving house, even assuming that a similar house near new job can be purchased for similar money to the one you have already.

    Once you have a car the marginal cost of a single extra journey is tiny, compared to the cost of a bus or train journey for more than one person. If you’re on your own, the cost is about the same, but the difference in time and exposure to the weather is significantly different.

    The impression given by those wanting to increase cycling, is that it starts with a dislike of cars. Now, there’s silly drivers and silly cyclists out there, and the cyclists are in the more vulnerable position if there’s a collision between the two. I can understand that it makes sense to separate the traffic where possible, but most of the suggestions start with reducing the space available for cars, rather than first increasing the space for other transport methods and letting the change happen organically.

    Many people have no choice but to drive, they might have a complex schedule that involves getting the kids to school, going to work, running errands for their employer, picking up kids and going to activities etc, or they might just be like me, who’d rather spend 40m a day driving than 4h on public transport. I do occasionally take the public transport to work, if we went for beers afterwards and I took a taxi home.

    The personal motor car is possibly the greatest invention of the 20th century, in terms of the freedom it gives people to move around, to seek work, to better themselves, to spend more time with those they love.

    It comes across that there’s a concerted effort to regress on personal car ownership, for a wide range of different ideological positions. Whether it’s the cycling lobby, the bus lobby, the train lobby, the Uber lobby, the car-as-a-service lobby, or the environmental lobby, is almost irrelevant; the aim is to leave fewer people with the option to just jump in their own car and enjoy the freedom of the road.
    I agree with your entire post - just swap out "car" for "bicycle".

    The key reason that people don't cycle in the UK is that they are scared of getting hit by a car. The "freedom" to cycle around has been eroded by a constant threat of injury or death.

    And car ownership is closely related to wealth. The poor have no choice but to cycle, walk or use public transport. What of their "freedom"?

    Cars are late to this game. People were walking, and then cycling, around our towns and cities long before motorists came along. In the 1950s there was 8x as much cycling as there is now.
    For the vast majority of people, having their own car was massive progress over bikes and horses. Owning a car was aspirational, people with cars are mobile and can go from any major city to another within a day, unbeholden to anyone except themselves.

    I’m all in favour of better roads for those who want to cycle, but most of the cycling campaigners start from the premise that less road should be given over to cars, and work backwards from there.
    Fewer drivers = more road.
    No, more road = more road.

    90% of transportation miles are taken by drivers and that is consistent in pretty much all countries across Europe. This includes cyclists and public transportation.

    You can't induce demand much beyond 90%. And even if cycling in this country were to double and all of those extra cycling miles were removed from driving miles, you'd be removing less than 1% of cars from the road. Which would be entirely negated by population growth being over 1% per annum.
    I've been meaning to ask you.
    Do you like cars?
    Guessing this is sarcasm?

    Of course I do, they're great. Convenient, practical, efficient and they work. They're the best and most efficient form of transportation that exists.

    I also like bikes, they're fun recreationally too.

    The thing is that bikes are not an alternative to cars, in the same way as chocolate cake is not an alternative to a balanced diet.

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.
    Not for 83% of us :)

    More importantly, about 1 in 5 households in Hillingdon (and Havering) manage without any car or van at all. Even in Rishi's Richmondshire, it's 1 in 8.

    So, no- cars are not required. They might be useful, but they're not required. "I want" isn't the same as "I need", as granny used to say.
    Which is bollocks, I lived in slough almost 40 years....in all that time I had precisely 2 jobs in slough, I worked in wantage,epsom,reading,farnborough apart from that. Public transport was only viable for reading. None of those places was cyclable to. Just because you live in an urban area does not mean you will find a job in that urban area
    Here are the figures;

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/choropleth/housing/number-of-cars-or-vans/number-of-cars-3a/no-cars-or-vans-in-household?lad=E06000039

    20 percent of households in Slough.
    Sorry what point are you trying to make here? 80% of slough needs a car?
    No. What I am saying is that Bart's claim,

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.

    is demonstrably untrue. Plenty of functioning adults manage their lives perfectly well without driving a car, ever. On the latest stats, about 1 in 4 adults in England don't have a driving licence.

    That's not the case for everyone, sure. I'm not arguing for no cars at all anywhere, and you'd have to get pretty fringe to get that view.

    What I do think is that cars can be excellent servants, but appalling masters. If we try to put sufficient road and parking space in urban areas, we cut them in pieces and often kill the things that make them good places to live. By making roads less safe and public transport less viable, we (and this includes me) make life demonstrably worse for the 1 in 4 adults who don't drive and the young people who struggle to be independently mobile.

    And the evidence is that, if you create safe networks for walking and cycling, properly away from motorised traffic, people do use them as a serious way of getting bits of their daily business done. Which is good for everyone.
    Plenty of people get about by being passengers in cars yes, or relying upon others who drive cars in order to service their needs instead.

    Very few in modern society have nothing to do with cars, whether it be via being a passenger in one (inc taxis), or getting their post delivered, or parcels delivered, or going to shops which have cars, vans and trucks delivering their supplies.

    Even if you don't drive, you almost certainly have people who are driving assisting you in the way you live on an daily basis. That's how modern society exists and it is all the better for it.

    The evidence is that if you have safe networks for walking and cycling then a miniscule percentage of daily miles/km travelled is done that way, which is absolutely fine, but cars remain the overwhelming majority of transportation.

    Even in tiny Netherlands, the most bike-friendly country in the world, bikes account for single-digit percentage of total km travelled while cars make up over 75%.

    If you want to ride a bike a short distance then good luck to you, but unless you want to go back to 18th century standards of living, we need cars in the real world.

    Er. 'Car' usually means 'private car'. Not delivery van, bus, minibus ... which is sort of the entire theme of all your posts as road warrior in backless gloves in his Rover 2000.
    Actually vans, buses, minibuses, etc are simply different types of cars. And if you order off Amazon or other delivery suppliers then a significant portion of those deliveries are made by someone else's private car anyway. Plus if we're talking about investment in roads, or closing roads, then absolutely all of those vehicles need roads every bit as much as private cars do.

    I've never driven a Rover, nor are my posts remotely road warrior unless you're an absolutely crazy anti-car fanatic - which this site seems to have a completely disproportionate amount of.

    I've been consistently pro opening new roads for improving cycling and other demands which is win/win.

    What I'm against is cutting capacity for over 90% of our transportation without any alternative. Build roads and you can add better cycling and walking capacity absolutely.
    Fact remains, private cars are hopelssly selfish and consume vast amounts of resources compared to communal vehicles of various sorts. Even an Amazon delivery car is dozens of times better than driving to the local bookshop or W H Smiths.
    Load of crap. Private cars consume minimal amounts of resources per mile travelled. They're wonderfully efficient.

    Gram for gram my bike is a less efficient use of resources than my car.
    Remarkable economic and engineering analysis. If it were true ...

    Bujt it's not, because you have the rest of us pay much of the cost.
    It is true. And you haven't paid a single penny towards my vehicle, quite the opposite, my taxes fund so much more than my driving.

    My car weighs approximately 1220 kg. It has done just under 100k miles since I bought it new. I should pass the 100k mark this year.

    So looking at the car weight per mile that is about 82 miles per kg.

    But most of the time I have passengers in the vehicle. 2, 3 and sometimes 4. So let's estimate 250k total passenger miles travelled. That'd mean 205 passenger miles per kg of car weight. And that's disregarding the shopping etc transported too.

    My bike weighs about 10kg and I won't have done more than double digit miles in it. And I've never carried any passengers on my bike.
    On the contrary, you would be paying most of those taxes anyway with or withotu a car. Those taxes and charges directly attributable to having a car don't pay your way. And I am therefore certainly subsidising you as I don't have a car.
    What the hell are you talking about? If you don't have a car then I am massively subsidising you. You should be grateful.

    The billions of profit that HMRC gets from taxes on drivers make us the golden geese. Hopefully with the switchover from fuel to electricity this will end and you can start paying your share, but I don't expect it and won't hold my breath.
    Cars aren't all bad but you shouldn't pretend you're doing everyone a favour when you're driving around in one. You aren't.
    Considering the current tax rates, we absolutely are.

    How much do you want to cut funding to the NHS to replace the exorbitant taxes being levied on drivers?

    Hopefully we can have a more neutral tax system in the future. Fuel duty should be replaced with an electricity tax which taxes all fuel equally, not just drivers fuel. Drivers of the future would still be getting taxed when they fill their vehicles, but they won't be the only ones taxed.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,937

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The biggest change Sunak needs is for inflation to keep falling. The less voters are worried about cost of living the less they will feel a need to change government, some tax cuts too once that is done would also help swing undecideds back to the Tories

    I don't think so. Major had more or less got the economy back on track by 1997 but the voters had already decided and thus the Tories were screwed. Same this time.

    For nothing now can ever come to any good with this Conservative administration.
    Major was facing Blair who is both more charismatic than Starmer and even more centrist. Major also had the legacy of Black Wednesday.

    1992 was 18 years into Tory government too, 2024 will be only 14 years into Tory government ie closer to the 13 years of 1992 when Major beat Kinnock against the odds when most polls had Labour ahead
    Blair may have been more charismatic than Starmer, but Major was miles more charismatic than Sunak.

    Major on his soapbox was quite formidable. That's how he won 1992. Sunak has none of that.
    Against Kinnock and Sunak comes across as more competent and in charge of his party than Major 1997 did
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,679
    viewcode said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    The biggest change Sunak needs is for inflation to keep falling. The less voters are worried about cost of living the less they will feel a need to change government, some tax cuts too once that is done would also help swing undecideds back to the Tories

    "inflation falls" does not mean "cheaper prices"; in the current context it means "prices that have already gone up a lot more than wages and which are still going up".
    Very good point. If inflation falls to 5% Sunak will say 'my promise has been delivered' while Joe Public is still seeing everything costing more than it did last year.
    There's a great deal of deliberate obfuscation of the first and second order derivatives of the price variablewith the price variable itself in Toryspeak at the moment. In fact there has been a great deal for the last year or so since inflation became even more of an issue than usual. But, ass you say, it risks being counterproductive.
    Similarly with the deliberate use of 'debt' when they (presumably*) mean deficit, although public deficit/debt is less in voters' faces than inflation.

    (*Because no way is debt going to reduce in the lifetime of this parliament.)
    Actually they do mean debt. The debt ratio specifically.

    Debt to GDP falling is the target.
    Isn't the question whether interest on the debt is increasing faster than the tax take?
    Debt to tax take is quite a good metric imo. How much you owe compared to your income.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The biggest change Sunak needs is for inflation to keep falling. The less voters are worried about cost of living the less they will feel a need to change government, some tax cuts too once that is done would also help swing undecideds back to the Tories

    I don't think so. Major had more or less got the economy back on track by 1997 but the voters had already decided and thus the Tories were screwed. Same this time.

    For nothing now can ever come to any good with this Conservative administration.
    Major was facing Blair who is both more charismatic than Starmer and even more centrist. Major also had the legacy of Black Wednesday.

    1992 was 18 years into Tory government too, 2024 will be only 14 years into Tory government ie closer to the 13 years of 1992 when Major beat Kinnock against the odds when most polls had Labour ahead
    Blair may have been more charismatic than Starmer, but Major was miles more charismatic than Sunak.

    Major on his soapbox was quite formidable. That's how he won 1992. Sunak has none of that.
    Against Kinnock and Sunak comes across as more competent and in charge of his party than Major 1997 did
    "Sunak comes across as more competent and in charge of his party than Major 1997 did"

    [Citation needed] 🤣
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,937
    Pro_Rata said:

    viewcode said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    My Rutherglen & Hamilton West post on whether there is anything unusual to be gleaned from the Local Elections.

    So my normal approach would be to base on the LE22 round and then see if there is any forward facing data since then

    Rutherglen & Hamilton West LE22 gave:
    SNP 39.2 (-5.0 on GE19)
    Lab 34.1 (-0.4)
    Con 11.0 (-4.0)
    LD 11.0 (+5.8)
    Others (mainly Green) 4.6 (+3.4)

    To my eyes a lot of the movement here is that of an STV election vs an FPTP election, a lot of that lost SNP vote is hidden in Others and likely to return as at this point.

    So, LE22 is not too far away from GE19.

    In terms of actual election swings since then, there have been 5 local by-elections in Scotland this year, 3 with Labour as the challengers. Swings away from the SNP on the first vote have been steady and consistent:

    In Stirling SNP to Con challenger swing was 5.5%
    In Edinburgh SNP to LD swing was 6%
    In Aberdeen SNP to Lab was 9%
    In the Lanarkshires (though neither in this constituency) SNP to Lab were 11 and 13.5% respectively.

    I don't know if it's the somewhat evened out political environment, large multi member wards, full slates of candidates, STV or what, but Scottish local elections and by elections, outside the Independent lands at least, show little of the madness that is often on show in England. Whenever I look things seem smooth, indicative and fairly well aligned with the polls.

    If a 10ish% swing to Labour does not materialize, I think that will reflect back something hitherto unknown about the Scottish attitudes to GE24 and would be far more telling than Uxbridge ever was. Labour need the boring result that every indicator suggests will happen. The chance of that is non-zero, this will be the first politician sent to London from Scotland since Airdrie and Shotts returned Anum Qaisar in sunnier SNP days.



    Curse of the long post / new thread
    Please don't think me stupid, but the salient point did rather get lost in the detail. Do you think Labour will win Rutherglen and Hamilton or not?
    Fair cop. That non-zero sentence didn't quite do the job.

    The boring result seems the most likely (broadly Labour winning by a similar or slightly smaller % margin than the current SNP margin), but there is a non-zero chance of some Scottish reaction against London Labour, and the earlier quoted 10/1 on the SNP seems modest value to me.
    I expect the vote in Rutherglen will be largely anti Yousaf and anti SNP
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,727

    Carnyx said:

    Selebian said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    .

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    @MattW is the acknowledged expert on cycling infrastructure. I’m sure his predictions that cycling can be expected to triple in coming years is right.

    I’m hopeful about Birmingham and Nottingham too.

    I remember when I posted that it was a shame that cities outside London lacked cyclehire schemes and I was denounced as a cappuccino supping metro elitist.

    A small, but very useful scheme - Brompton offer cycle hire

    https://bromptonhire.com/our-locations/

    A number are next to rail/tube stations.

    I'm seeing on the trains an increasing number of people who've obviously hired one (the colour scheme is quiet, but noticeable) for a day out - train out to somewhere in the country side, unfold and ride.

    For those who don't know them, Brompton folding bikes are allowed on all trains because they are so compact. They are, in addition, very rideable, compared to other small wheel bikes.
    Bromptons are very cool, as well as a British manufacturing success story.
    I have a single speed titanium one with flat bars because that's just how I roll.

    They are not particularly 'rideable' because of a very short mechanical trail distance of 27mm. A normal bicycle has 40-65mm and therefore much stronger castering action. I have ridden mine over 60km in one ride though.
    What's the verdict on cargo ebikes? I'm tempted by something like a Tern or the cheaper Radwagon. Where we live, it'd make sense for me, rather than use the Transporter for a 10 minute drive to town. It'd be a crime to use my hardtail with panniers.
    Terns are I think well-thought of and robust, if somewhat expensive at £3-4k+. ie about 12-18 months of running costs for a small 2nd car.

    You can find E-Cargo bikes from about £1500, or secondhand, and they hold their value well.

    There are also good e-cargo-trikes.

    Some reviews:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-electric-cargo-bikes
    Some reviews of budget ones:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-e-cargo-bikes-under-3000-affordable-electric-bikes-to-do-the-job-of

    I bought my car for £3,000, and it can carry a family of five and all of their luggage for a fortnight away. Plus the dog.

    And the bike won’t go 80mph, do. 0-60 in six seconds, or make V8 noises. ULEZ compliant as well.
    (It’s a later model of this)
    [Picture of dog required for scale]
    Okay, nicked off the internet.
    (This is a later model of car)
    [Scale now obtained. Thank you, @Sandpit]
    As I always say, it's not a competition.

    What is your annual running cost, btw? *innocent face*
    Okay, I’ll bite.

    I’ve previously lived in places where work and home were 400m apart, and home was 100m from the station. Brilliant. No need for a car, take a taxi or rent one when required.

    Right now, I live 25km from work, and the journey is pretty much impossible by anything other than car. It’s 20m in the car, or nearly 2h by public transport (walk, bus, train, train, walk, boat, walk).

    The problem I have, is trying to fit one-size-fits-all solutions into a diverse population. People will change jobs, and transport methods that worked with old job no longer work with new job. Not just jobs either, people have regular appointments with schools, shops, social events, that can change over time.

    Having a car is a sunk cost; not just for the car, but for insurance, VED, servicing etc. Owning a house is an even bigger sunk cost; it’s often easier to accept an hour’s commute than to commit to spending five figures on moving house, even assuming that a similar house near new job can be purchased for similar money to the one you have already.

    Once you have a car the marginal cost of a single extra journey is tiny, compared to the cost of a bus or train journey for more than one person. If you’re on your own, the cost is about the same, but the difference in time and exposure to the weather is significantly different.

    The impression given by those wanting to increase cycling, is that it starts with a dislike of cars. Now, there’s silly drivers and silly cyclists out there, and the cyclists are in the more vulnerable position if there’s a collision between the two. I can understand that it makes sense to separate the traffic where possible, but most of the suggestions start with reducing the space available for cars, rather than first increasing the space for other transport methods and letting the change happen organically.

    Many people have no choice but to drive, they might have a complex schedule that involves getting the kids to school, going to work, running errands for their employer, picking up kids and going to activities etc, or they might just be like me, who’d rather spend 40m a day driving than 4h on public transport. I do occasionally take the public transport to work, if we went for beers afterwards and I took a taxi home.

    The personal motor car is possibly the greatest invention of the 20th century, in terms of the freedom it gives people to move around, to seek work, to better themselves, to spend more time with those they love.

    It comes across that there’s a concerted effort to regress on personal car ownership, for a wide range of different ideological positions. Whether it’s the cycling lobby, the bus lobby, the train lobby, the Uber lobby, the car-as-a-service lobby, or the environmental lobby, is almost irrelevant; the aim is to leave fewer people with the option to just jump in their own car and enjoy the freedom of the road.
    I agree with your entire post - just swap out "car" for "bicycle".

    The key reason that people don't cycle in the UK is that they are scared of getting hit by a car. The "freedom" to cycle around has been eroded by a constant threat of injury or death.

    And car ownership is closely related to wealth. The poor have no choice but to cycle, walk or use public transport. What of their "freedom"?

    Cars are late to this game. People were walking, and then cycling, around our towns and cities long before motorists came along. In the 1950s there was 8x as much cycling as there is now.
    For the vast majority of people, having their own car was massive progress over bikes and horses. Owning a car was aspirational, people with cars are mobile and can go from any major city to another within a day, unbeholden to anyone except themselves.

    I’m all in favour of better roads for those who want to cycle, but most of the cycling campaigners start from the premise that less road should be given over to cars, and work backwards from there.
    Fewer drivers = more road.
    No, more road = more road.

    90% of transportation miles are taken by drivers and that is consistent in pretty much all countries across Europe. This includes cyclists and public transportation.

    You can't induce demand much beyond 90%. And even if cycling in this country were to double and all of those extra cycling miles were removed from driving miles, you'd be removing less than 1% of cars from the road. Which would be entirely negated by population growth being over 1% per annum.
    I've been meaning to ask you.
    Do you like cars?
    Guessing this is sarcasm?

    Of course I do, they're great. Convenient, practical, efficient and they work. They're the best and most efficient form of transportation that exists.

    I also like bikes, they're fun recreationally too.

    The thing is that bikes are not an alternative to cars, in the same way as chocolate cake is not an alternative to a balanced diet.

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.
    Not for 83% of us :)

    More importantly, about 1 in 5 households in Hillingdon (and Havering) manage without any car or van at all. Even in Rishi's Richmondshire, it's 1 in 8.

    So, no- cars are not required. They might be useful, but they're not required. "I want" isn't the same as "I need", as granny used to say.
    Which is bollocks, I lived in slough almost 40 years....in all that time I had precisely 2 jobs in slough, I worked in wantage,epsom,reading,farnborough apart from that. Public transport was only viable for reading. None of those places was cyclable to. Just because you live in an urban area does not mean you will find a job in that urban area
    Here are the figures;

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/choropleth/housing/number-of-cars-or-vans/number-of-cars-3a/no-cars-or-vans-in-household?lad=E06000039

    20 percent of households in Slough.
    Sorry what point are you trying to make here? 80% of slough needs a car?
    No. What I am saying is that Bart's claim,

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.

    is demonstrably untrue. Plenty of functioning adults manage their lives perfectly well without driving a car, ever. On the latest stats, about 1 in 4 adults in England don't have a driving licence.

    That's not the case for everyone, sure. I'm not arguing for no cars at all anywhere, and you'd have to get pretty fringe to get that view.

    What I do think is that cars can be excellent servants, but appalling masters. If we try to put sufficient road and parking space in urban areas, we cut them in pieces and often kill the things that make them good places to live. By making roads less safe and public transport less viable, we (and this includes me) make life demonstrably worse for the 1 in 4 adults who don't drive and the young people who struggle to be independently mobile.

    And the evidence is that, if you create safe networks for walking and cycling, properly away from motorised traffic, people do use them as a serious way of getting bits of their daily business done. Which is good for everyone.
    Plenty of people get about by being passengers in cars yes, or relying upon others who drive cars in order to service their needs instead.

    Very few in modern society have nothing to do with cars, whether it be via being a passenger in one (inc taxis), or getting their post delivered, or parcels delivered, or going to shops which have cars, vans and trucks delivering their supplies.

    Even if you don't drive, you almost certainly have people who are driving assisting you in the way you live on an daily basis. That's how modern society exists and it is all the better for it.

    The evidence is that if you have safe networks for walking and cycling then a miniscule percentage of daily miles/km travelled is done that way, which is absolutely fine, but cars remain the overwhelming majority of transportation.

    Even in tiny Netherlands, the most bike-friendly country in the world, bikes account for single-digit percentage of total km travelled while cars make up over 75%.

    If you want to ride a bike a short distance then good luck to you, but unless you want to go back to 18th century standards of living, we need cars in the real world.

    Er. 'Car' usually means 'private car'. Not delivery van, bus, minibus ... which is sort of the entire theme of all your posts as road warrior in backless gloves in his Rover 2000.
    Actually vans, buses, minibuses, etc are simply different types of cars. And if you order off Amazon or other delivery suppliers then a significant portion of those deliveries are made by someone else's private car anyway. Plus if we're talking about investment in roads, or closing roads, then absolutely all of those vehicles need roads every bit as much as private cars do.

    I've never driven a Rover, nor are my posts remotely road warrior unless you're an absolutely crazy anti-car fanatic - which this site seems to have a completely disproportionate amount of.

    I've been consistently pro opening new roads for improving cycling and other demands which is win/win.

    What I'm against is cutting capacity for over 90% of our transportation without any alternative. Build roads and you can add better cycling and walking capacity absolutely.
    Fact remains, private cars are hopelssly selfish and consume vast amounts of resources compared to communal vehicles of various sorts. Even an Amazon delivery car is dozens of times better than driving to the local bookshop or W H Smiths.
    Load of crap. Private cars consume minimal amounts of resources per mile travelled. They're wonderfully efficient.

    Gram for gram my bike is a less efficient use of resources than my car.
    Remarkable economic and engineering analysis. If it were true ...

    Bujt it's not, because you have the rest of us pay much of the cost.
    It is true. And you haven't paid a single penny towards my vehicle, quite the opposite, my taxes fund so much more than my driving.

    My car weighs approximately 1220 kg. It has done just under 100k miles since I bought it new. I should pass the 100k mark this year.

    So looking at the car weight per mile that is about 82 miles per kg.

    But most of the time I have passengers in the vehicle. 2, 3 and sometimes 4. So let's estimate 250k total passenger miles travelled. That'd mean 205 passenger miles per kg of car weight. And that's disregarding the shopping etc transported too.

    My bike weighs about 10kg and I won't have done more than double digit miles in it. And I've never carried any passengers on my bike.
    I've done ~2k miles on my 10kg bike and ~10k miles in my 2400kg car.

    What do we conclude from that? As with you figures, I'd suggest: "nothing".

    Also, why are you dividing miles by mass? If anything, I'd multiply them for some indication of impact (wear on roads for example, indication of energy expended).
    Would make more sense to *multiply* mass x distance. And note he's omitting the car's own weight in that equation, or rather indeed using it as a divider. Which is cheating.
    Its not cheating, it is a divisor. I said that gram for gram my car is more efficient and it is, you need to divide distance by mass to calculate the distance travelled per kg of the vehicle.
    This has taken a weird turn.

    Perhaps you should add a 1 ton lead weight to the boot to make it more efficient?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,140
    edited August 2023
    Fishing said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    It seems the Tories have scheduled this early part of the holiday season as one when the PM can be doing things each day...

    ...and next, he's off on a holiday to California, just like everyone does at this time of cost of living crisis year.

    If I was Sunak I would have taken my summer holiday in Blackpool or Cornwall certainly, I am sure he will have a great time in California but it is not great PR with an election next year and cost of living still an issue.

    Voters didn't begrudge Blair his Tuscan and Caribbean holidays as the economy was still growing strongly and inflation was low, however when the economy is less good voters don't like PMs in the sun. Callaghan's 'crisis what crisis' remark after returning from holiday in Guadeloupe wasn't rewarded by the voters in 1979 given the high inflation and strikes at the time
    "Crisis what crisis" was a Sun headline, not a Callaghan Quote.

    Sunak holidaying in his Santa Monica house really does add to the impression of the super rich lifestyle of a Non-Dom spouse.

    I honestly don't think floating voters, who are what matters, care at all about a PM's wealth or privileged background, no matter how much the jealous left want them to. Cameron's Bullingdon Club antics were supposed to doom him, as was Johnson's Old Etonian background, but both won. Sunak may well not win, but if not it'll be because of Truss's legacy, or falling living standards or whatever, nothing to do with fabulously wealthy in-laws or where he chooses to holiday.
    My mother has been a member of the Tory Party since the 1950's, but voted for Truss over Sunak because she didn't think him committed to Britain. In part the Non-Dom wife, in part the Green card, but mostly because of the way he answered the question at one of the hustings she
    watched, something on these lines:

    Q: what would you be doing if you weren't an MP?

    A: Living in California
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 22,399
    edited August 2023

    Carnyx said:

    Selebian said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    .

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    @MattW is the acknowledged expert on cycling infrastructure. I’m sure his predictions that cycling can be expected to triple in coming years is right.

    I’m hopeful about Birmingham and Nottingham too.

    I remember when I posted that it was a shame that cities outside London lacked cyclehire schemes and I was denounced as a cappuccino supping metro elitist.

    A small, but very useful scheme - Brompton offer cycle hire

    https://bromptonhire.com/our-locations/

    A number are next to rail/tube stations.

    I'm seeing on the trains an increasing number of people who've obviously hired one (the colour scheme is quiet, but noticeable) for a day out - train out to somewhere in the country side, unfold and ride.

    For those who don't know them, Brompton folding bikes are allowed on all trains because they are so compact. They are, in addition, very rideable, compared to other small wheel bikes.
    Bromptons are very cool, as well as a British manufacturing success story.
    I have a single speed titanium one with flat bars because that's just how I roll.

    They are not particularly 'rideable' because of a very short mechanical trail distance of 27mm. A normal bicycle has 40-65mm and therefore much stronger castering action. I have ridden mine over 60km in one ride though.
    What's the verdict on cargo ebikes? I'm tempted by something like a Tern or the cheaper Radwagon. Where we live, it'd make sense for me, rather than use the Transporter for a 10 minute drive to town. It'd be a crime to use my hardtail with panniers.
    Terns are I think well-thought of and robust, if somewhat expensive at £3-4k+. ie about 12-18 months of running costs for a small 2nd car.

    You can find E-Cargo bikes from about £1500, or secondhand, and they hold their value well.

    There are also good e-cargo-trikes.

    Some reviews:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-electric-cargo-bikes
    Some reviews of budget ones:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-e-cargo-bikes-under-3000-affordable-electric-bikes-to-do-the-job-of

    I bought my car for £3,000, and it can carry a family of five and all of their luggage for a fortnight away. Plus the dog.

    And the bike won’t go 80mph, do. 0-60 in six seconds, or make V8 noises. ULEZ compliant as well.
    (It’s a later model of this)
    [Picture of dog required for scale]
    Okay, nicked off the internet.
    (This is a later model of car)
    [Scale now obtained. Thank you, @Sandpit]
    As I always say, it's not a competition.

    What is your annual running cost, btw? *innocent face*
    Okay, I’ll bite.

    I’ve previously lived in places where work and home were 400m apart, and home was 100m from the station. Brilliant. No need for a car, take a taxi or rent one when required.

    Right now, I live 25km from work, and the journey is pretty much impossible by anything other than car. It’s 20m in the car, or nearly 2h by public transport (walk, bus, train, train, walk, boat, walk).

    The problem I have, is trying to fit one-size-fits-all solutions into a diverse population. People will change jobs, and transport methods that worked with old job no longer work with new job. Not just jobs either, people have regular appointments with schools, shops, social events, that can change over time.

    Having a car is a sunk cost; not just for the car, but for insurance, VED, servicing etc. Owning a house is an even bigger sunk cost; it’s often easier to accept an hour’s commute than to commit to spending five figures on moving house, even assuming that a similar house near new job can be purchased for similar money to the one you have already.

    Once you have a car the marginal cost of a single extra journey is tiny, compared to the cost of a bus or train journey for more than one person. If you’re on your own, the cost is about the same, but the difference in time and exposure to the weather is significantly different.

    The impression given by those wanting to increase cycling, is that it starts with a dislike of cars. Now, there’s silly drivers and silly cyclists out there, and the cyclists are in the more vulnerable position if there’s a collision between the two. I can understand that it makes sense to separate the traffic where possible, but most of the suggestions start with reducing the space available for cars, rather than first increasing the space for other transport methods and letting the change happen organically.

    Many people have no choice but to drive, they might have a complex schedule that involves getting the kids to school, going to work, running errands for their employer, picking up kids and going to activities etc, or they might just be like me, who’d rather spend 40m a day driving than 4h on public transport. I do occasionally take the public transport to work, if we went for beers afterwards and I took a taxi home.

    The personal motor car is possibly the greatest invention of the 20th century, in terms of the freedom it gives people to move around, to seek work, to better themselves, to spend more time with those they love.

    It comes across that there’s a concerted effort to regress on personal car ownership, for a wide range of different ideological positions. Whether it’s the cycling lobby, the bus lobby, the train lobby, the Uber lobby, the car-as-a-service lobby, or the environmental lobby, is almost irrelevant; the aim is to leave fewer people with the option to just jump in their own car and enjoy the freedom of the road.
    I agree with your entire post - just swap out "car" for "bicycle".

    The key reason that people don't cycle in the UK is that they are scared of getting hit by a car. The "freedom" to cycle around has been eroded by a constant threat of injury or death.

    And car ownership is closely related to wealth. The poor have no choice but to cycle, walk or use public transport. What of their "freedom"?

    Cars are late to this game. People were walking, and then cycling, around our towns and cities long before motorists came along. In the 1950s there was 8x as much cycling as there is now.
    For the vast majority of people, having their own car was massive progress over bikes and horses. Owning a car was aspirational, people with cars are mobile and can go from any major city to another within a day, unbeholden to anyone except themselves.

    I’m all in favour of better roads for those who want to cycle, but most of the cycling campaigners start from the premise that less road should be given over to cars, and work backwards from there.
    Fewer drivers = more road.
    No, more road = more road.

    90% of transportation miles are taken by drivers and that is consistent in pretty much all countries across Europe. This includes cyclists and public transportation.

    You can't induce demand much beyond 90%. And even if cycling in this country were to double and all of those extra cycling miles were removed from driving miles, you'd be removing less than 1% of cars from the road. Which would be entirely negated by population growth being over 1% per annum.
    I've been meaning to ask you.
    Do you like cars?
    Guessing this is sarcasm?

    Of course I do, they're great. Convenient, practical, efficient and they work. They're the best and most efficient form of transportation that exists.

    I also like bikes, they're fun recreationally too.

    The thing is that bikes are not an alternative to cars, in the same way as chocolate cake is not an alternative to a balanced diet.

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.
    Not for 83% of us :)

    More importantly, about 1 in 5 households in Hillingdon (and Havering) manage without any car or van at all. Even in Rishi's Richmondshire, it's 1 in 8.

    So, no- cars are not required. They might be useful, but they're not required. "I want" isn't the same as "I need", as granny used to say.
    Which is bollocks, I lived in slough almost 40 years....in all that time I had precisely 2 jobs in slough, I worked in wantage,epsom,reading,farnborough apart from that. Public transport was only viable for reading. None of those places was cyclable to. Just because you live in an urban area does not mean you will find a job in that urban area
    Here are the figures;

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/choropleth/housing/number-of-cars-or-vans/number-of-cars-3a/no-cars-or-vans-in-household?lad=E06000039

    20 percent of households in Slough.
    Sorry what point are you trying to make here? 80% of slough needs a car?
    No. What I am saying is that Bart's claim,

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.

    is demonstrably untrue. Plenty of functioning adults manage their lives perfectly well without driving a car, ever. On the latest stats, about 1 in 4 adults in England don't have a driving licence.

    That's not the case for everyone, sure. I'm not arguing for no cars at all anywhere, and you'd have to get pretty fringe to get that view.

    What I do think is that cars can be excellent servants, but appalling masters. If we try to put sufficient road and parking space in urban areas, we cut them in pieces and often kill the things that make them good places to live. By making roads less safe and public transport less viable, we (and this includes me) make life demonstrably worse for the 1 in 4 adults who don't drive and the young people who struggle to be independently mobile.

    And the evidence is that, if you create safe networks for walking and cycling, properly away from motorised traffic, people do use them as a serious way of getting bits of their daily business done. Which is good for everyone.
    Plenty of people get about by being passengers in cars yes, or relying upon others who drive cars in order to service their needs instead.

    Very few in modern society have nothing to do with cars, whether it be via being a passenger in one (inc taxis), or getting their post delivered, or parcels delivered, or going to shops which have cars, vans and trucks delivering their supplies.

    Even if you don't drive, you almost certainly have people who are driving assisting you in the way you live on an daily basis. That's how modern society exists and it is all the better for it.

    The evidence is that if you have safe networks for walking and cycling then a miniscule percentage of daily miles/km travelled is done that way, which is absolutely fine, but cars remain the overwhelming majority of transportation.

    Even in tiny Netherlands, the most bike-friendly country in the world, bikes account for single-digit percentage of total km travelled while cars make up over 75%.

    If you want to ride a bike a short distance then good luck to you, but unless you want to go back to 18th century standards of living, we need cars in the real world.

    Er. 'Car' usually means 'private car'. Not delivery van, bus, minibus ... which is sort of the entire theme of all your posts as road warrior in backless gloves in his Rover 2000.
    Actually vans, buses, minibuses, etc are simply different types of cars. And if you order off Amazon or other delivery suppliers then a significant portion of those deliveries are made by someone else's private car anyway. Plus if we're talking about investment in roads, or closing roads, then absolutely all of those vehicles need roads every bit as much as private cars do.

    I've never driven a Rover, nor are my posts remotely road warrior unless you're an absolutely crazy anti-car fanatic - which this site seems to have a completely disproportionate amount of.

    I've been consistently pro opening new roads for improving cycling and other demands which is win/win.

    What I'm against is cutting capacity for over 90% of our transportation without any alternative. Build roads and you can add better cycling and walking capacity absolutely.
    Fact remains, private cars are hopelssly selfish and consume vast amounts of resources compared to communal vehicles of various sorts. Even an Amazon delivery car is dozens of times better than driving to the local bookshop or W H Smiths.
    Load of crap. Private cars consume minimal amounts of resources per mile travelled. They're wonderfully efficient.

    Gram for gram my bike is a less efficient use of resources than my car.
    Remarkable economic and engineering analysis. If it were true ...

    Bujt it's not, because you have the rest of us pay much of the cost.
    It is true. And you haven't paid a single penny towards my vehicle, quite the opposite, my taxes fund so much more than my driving.

    My car weighs approximately 1220 kg. It has done just under 100k miles since I bought it new. I should pass the 100k mark this year.

    So looking at the car weight per mile that is about 82 miles per kg.

    But most of the time I have passengers in the vehicle. 2, 3 and sometimes 4. So let's estimate 250k total passenger miles travelled. That'd mean 205 passenger miles per kg of car weight. And that's disregarding the shopping etc transported too.

    My bike weighs about 10kg and I won't have done more than double digit miles in it. And I've never carried any passengers on my bike.
    I've done ~2k miles on my 10kg bike and ~10k miles in my 2400kg car.

    What do we conclude from that? As with you figures, I'd suggest: "nothing".

    Also, why are you dividing miles by mass? If anything, I'd multiply them for some indication of impact (wear on roads for example, indication of energy expended).
    Would make more sense to *multiply* mass x distance. And note he's omitting the car's own weight in that equation, or rather indeed using it as a divider. Which is cheating.
    Its not cheating, it is a divisor. I said that gram for gram my car is more efficient and it is, you need to divide distance by mass to calculate the distance travelled per kg of the vehicle.
    This has taken a weird turn.

    Perhaps you should add a 1 ton lead weight to the boot to make it more efficient?
    Adding a weight would make it less efficient though?

    100k miles / 1220kg = 82 miles travelled per kg.
    100k miles / 2220kg = 45 miles travelled per kg.

    Since miles are the positive measure and more miles per kg is more efficient, then having a bigger divisor lowers efficiency, it doesn't boost it. That's basic mathematics.

    Increasing the divisor lowers the value of what you're measuring, so of course weight is a divisor.

    Multiplying would be cheating.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    The biggest change Sunak needs is for inflation to keep falling. The less voters are worried about cost of living the less they will feel a need to change government, some tax cuts too once that is done would also help swing undecideds back to the Tories

    "inflation falls" does not mean "cheaper prices"; in the current context it means "prices that have already gone up a lot more than wages and which are still going up".
    Very good point. If inflation falls to 5% Sunak will say 'my promise has been delivered' while Joe Public is still seeing everything costing more than it did last year.
    There's a great deal of deliberate obfuscation of the first and second order derivatives of the price variablewith the price variable itself in Toryspeak at the moment. In fact there has been a great deal for the last year or so since inflation became even more of an issue than usual. But, ass you say, it risks being counterproductive.
    Similarly with the deliberate use of 'debt' when they (presumably*) mean deficit, although public deficit/debt is less in voters' faces than inflation.

    (*Because no way is debt going to reduce in the lifetime of this parliament.)
    Actually they do mean debt. The debt ratio specifically.

    Debt to GDP falling is the target.
    Was that ever clarified? In the actual speech he said:

    "...Third, we will make sure our national debt is falling so that we can secure the future of public services..."

    But let's assume you're right, it makes sense after all. He has no chance of achieving that promise before a GE, does he?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    edited August 2023
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The biggest change Sunak needs is for inflation to keep falling. The less voters are worried about cost of living the less they will feel a need to change government, some tax cuts too once that is done would also help swing undecideds back to the Tories

    I don't think so. Major had more or less got the economy back on track by 1997 but the voters had already decided and thus the Tories were screwed. Same this time.

    For nothing now can ever come to any good with this Conservative administration.
    Major was facing Blair who is both more charismatic than Starmer and even more centrist. Major also had the legacy of Black Wednesday.

    1992 was 18 years into Tory government too, 2024 will be only 14 years into Tory government ie closer to the 13 years of 1992 when Major beat Kinnock against the odds when most polls had Labour ahead
    Blair may have been more charismatic than Starmer, but Major was miles more charismatic than Sunak.

    Major on his soapbox was quite formidable. That's how he won 1992. Sunak has none of that.
    Against Kinnock and Sunak comes across as more competent and in charge of his party than Major 1997 did
    Blimey, how not in charge was Major in 1997?! Rishi basically cannot do anything because despite a big majority the party is riven with in fighting, hence the retreat to nothing boats (rhetoric) and nimbyism.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,679

    kinabalu said:

    What saves Sunak is an Event, dear boy.

    I don't know what sort of Event, but it would have to be a jolly big one. And probably not the one referenced in the Mitchell and Webb "Remain Indoors" sketches.

    But if Rishi goes into the election having to persuade people, it's just not going to work, unless he is using this holiday to have a Complete Personality Transplant operation.

    The 'event' would have to be something big and negative for Labour. Which I don't see because Starmer owns the party now and is taking no risks whatsoever. Absolutely nothing gets out (policy or messaging) that might upset the sort of voters he needs to win and hence is targeting (being red wall leavers and apolitical floaters).
    Its not going to happen as Starmer isn't completely crazy, but if Labour adopted the anti-car attitude shown by many people here in recent days then that could turn every marginal constituency against Labour.

    The election is decided by drivers. Starmer isn't stupid enough to be anti-driver.
    'Driver' is not most people's primary identity though. You are unusual in this respect.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    edited August 2023

    Carnyx said:

    Selebian said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    .

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    @MattW is the acknowledged expert on cycling infrastructure. I’m sure his predictions that cycling can be expected to triple in coming years is right.

    I’m hopeful about Birmingham and Nottingham too.

    I remember when I posted that it was a shame that cities outside London lacked cyclehire schemes and I was denounced as a cappuccino supping metro elitist.

    A small, but very useful scheme - Brompton offer cycle hire

    https://bromptonhire.com/our-locations/

    A number are next to rail/tube stations.

    I'm seeing on the trains an increasing number of people who've obviously hired one (the colour scheme is quiet, but noticeable) for a day out - train out to somewhere in the country side, unfold and ride.

    For those who don't know them, Brompton folding bikes are allowed on all trains because they are so compact. They are, in addition, very rideable, compared to other small wheel bikes.
    Bromptons are very cool, as well as a British manufacturing success story.
    I have a single speed titanium one with flat bars because that's just how I roll.

    They are not particularly 'rideable' because of a very short mechanical trail distance of 27mm. A normal bicycle has 40-65mm and therefore much stronger castering action. I have ridden mine over 60km in one ride though.
    What's the verdict on cargo ebikes? I'm tempted by something like a Tern or the cheaper Radwagon. Where we live, it'd make sense for me, rather than use the Transporter for a 10 minute drive to town. It'd be a crime to use my hardtail with panniers.
    Terns are I think well-thought of and robust, if somewhat expensive at £3-4k+. ie about 12-18 months of running costs for a small 2nd car.

    You can find E-Cargo bikes from about £1500, or secondhand, and they hold their value well.

    There are also good e-cargo-trikes.

    Some reviews:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-electric-cargo-bikes
    Some reviews of budget ones:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-e-cargo-bikes-under-3000-affordable-electric-bikes-to-do-the-job-of

    I bought my car for £3,000, and it can carry a family of five and all of their luggage for a fortnight away. Plus the dog.

    And the bike won’t go 80mph, do. 0-60 in six seconds, or make V8 noises. ULEZ compliant as well.
    (It’s a later model of this)
    [Picture of dog required for scale]
    Okay, nicked off the internet.
    (This is a later model of car)
    [Scale now obtained. Thank you, @Sandpit]
    As I always say, it's not a competition.

    What is your annual running cost, btw? *innocent face*
    Okay, I’ll bite.

    I’ve previously lived in places where work and home were 400m apart, and home was 100m from the station. Brilliant. No need for a car, take a taxi or rent one when required.

    Right now, I live 25km from work, and the journey is pretty much impossible by anything other than car. It’s 20m in the car, or nearly 2h by public transport (walk, bus, train, train, walk, boat, walk).

    The problem I have, is trying to fit one-size-fits-all solutions into a diverse population. People will change jobs, and transport methods that worked with old job no longer work with new job. Not just jobs either, people have regular appointments with schools, shops, social events, that can change over time.

    Having a car is a sunk cost; not just for the car, but for insurance, VED, servicing etc. Owning a house is an even bigger sunk cost; it’s often easier to accept an hour’s commute than to commit to spending five figures on moving house, even assuming that a similar house near new job can be purchased for similar money to the one you have already.

    Once you have a car the marginal cost of a single extra journey is tiny, compared to the cost of a bus or train journey for more than one person. If you’re on your own, the cost is about the same, but the difference in time and exposure to the weather is significantly different.

    The impression given by those wanting to increase cycling, is that it starts with a dislike of cars. Now, there’s silly drivers and silly cyclists out there, and the cyclists are in the more vulnerable position if there’s a collision between the two. I can understand that it makes sense to separate the traffic where possible, but most of the suggestions start with reducing the space available for cars, rather than first increasing the space for other transport methods and letting the change happen organically.

    Many people have no choice but to drive, they might have a complex schedule that involves getting the kids to school, going to work, running errands for their employer, picking up kids and going to activities etc, or they might just be like me, who’d rather spend 40m a day driving than 4h on public transport. I do occasionally take the public transport to work, if we went for beers afterwards and I took a taxi home.

    The personal motor car is possibly the greatest invention of the 20th century, in terms of the freedom it gives people to move around, to seek work, to better themselves, to spend more time with those they love.

    It comes across that there’s a concerted effort to regress on personal car ownership, for a wide range of different ideological positions. Whether it’s the cycling lobby, the bus lobby, the train lobby, the Uber lobby, the car-as-a-service lobby, or the environmental lobby, is almost irrelevant; the aim is to leave fewer people with the option to just jump in their own car and enjoy the freedom of the road.
    I agree with your entire post - just swap out "car" for "bicycle".

    The key reason that people don't cycle in the UK is that they are scared of getting hit by a car. The "freedom" to cycle around has been eroded by a constant threat of injury or death.

    And car ownership is closely related to wealth. The poor have no choice but to cycle, walk or use public transport. What of their "freedom"?

    Cars are late to this game. People were walking, and then cycling, around our towns and cities long before motorists came along. In the 1950s there was 8x as much cycling as there is now.
    For the vast majority of people, having their own car was massive progress over bikes and horses. Owning a car was aspirational, people with cars are mobile and can go from any major city to another within a day, unbeholden to anyone except themselves.

    I’m all in favour of better roads for those who want to cycle, but most of the cycling campaigners start from the premise that less road should be given over to cars, and work backwards from there.
    Fewer drivers = more road.
    No, more road = more road.

    90% of transportation miles are taken by drivers and that is consistent in pretty much all countries across Europe. This includes cyclists and public transportation.

    You can't induce demand much beyond 90%. And even if cycling in this country were to double and all of those extra cycling miles were removed from driving miles, you'd be removing less than 1% of cars from the road. Which would be entirely negated by population growth being over 1% per annum.
    I've been meaning to ask you.
    Do you like cars?
    Guessing this is sarcasm?

    Of course I do, they're great. Convenient, practical, efficient and they work. They're the best and most efficient form of transportation that exists.

    I also like bikes, they're fun recreationally too.

    The thing is that bikes are not an alternative to cars, in the same way as chocolate cake is not an alternative to a balanced diet.

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.
    Not for 83% of us :)

    More importantly, about 1 in 5 households in Hillingdon (and Havering) manage without any car or van at all. Even in Rishi's Richmondshire, it's 1 in 8.

    So, no- cars are not required. They might be useful, but they're not required. "I want" isn't the same as "I need", as granny used to say.
    Which is bollocks, I lived in slough almost 40 years....in all that time I had precisely 2 jobs in slough, I worked in wantage,epsom,reading,farnborough apart from that. Public transport was only viable for reading. None of those places was cyclable to. Just because you live in an urban area does not mean you will find a job in that urban area
    Here are the figures;

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/choropleth/housing/number-of-cars-or-vans/number-of-cars-3a/no-cars-or-vans-in-household?lad=E06000039

    20 percent of households in Slough.
    Sorry what point are you trying to make here? 80% of slough needs a car?
    No. What I am saying is that Bart's claim,

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.

    is demonstrably untrue. Plenty of functioning adults manage their lives perfectly well without driving a car, ever. On the latest stats, about 1 in 4 adults in England don't have a driving licence.

    That's not the case for everyone, sure. I'm not arguing for no cars at all anywhere, and you'd have to get pretty fringe to get that view.

    What I do think is that cars can be excellent servants, but appalling masters. If we try to put sufficient road and parking space in urban areas, we cut them in pieces and often kill the things that make them good places to live. By making roads less safe and public transport less viable, we (and this includes me) make life demonstrably worse for the 1 in 4 adults who don't drive and the young people who struggle to be independently mobile.

    And the evidence is that, if you create safe networks for walking and cycling, properly away from motorised traffic, people do use them as a serious way of getting bits of their daily business done. Which is good for everyone.
    Plenty of people get about by being passengers in cars yes, or relying upon others who drive cars in order to service their needs instead.

    Very few in modern society have nothing to do with cars, whether it be via being a passenger in one (inc taxis), or getting their post delivered, or parcels delivered, or going to shops which have cars, vans and trucks delivering their supplies.

    Even if you don't drive, you almost certainly have people who are driving assisting you in the way you live on an daily basis. That's how modern society exists and it is all the better for it.

    The evidence is that if you have safe networks for walking and cycling then a miniscule percentage of daily miles/km travelled is done that way, which is absolutely fine, but cars remain the overwhelming majority of transportation.

    Even in tiny Netherlands, the most bike-friendly country in the world, bikes account for single-digit percentage of total km travelled while cars make up over 75%.

    If you want to ride a bike a short distance then good luck to you, but unless you want to go back to 18th century standards of living, we need cars in the real world.

    Er. 'Car' usually means 'private car'. Not delivery van, bus, minibus ... which is sort of the entire theme of all your posts as road warrior in backless gloves in his Rover 2000.
    Actually vans, buses, minibuses, etc are simply different types of cars. And if you order off Amazon or other delivery suppliers then a significant portion of those deliveries are made by someone else's private car anyway. Plus if we're talking about investment in roads, or closing roads, then absolutely all of those vehicles need roads every bit as much as private cars do.

    I've never driven a Rover, nor are my posts remotely road warrior unless you're an absolutely crazy anti-car fanatic - which this site seems to have a completely disproportionate amount of.

    I've been consistently pro opening new roads for improving cycling and other demands which is win/win.

    What I'm against is cutting capacity for over 90% of our transportation without any alternative. Build roads and you can add better cycling and walking capacity absolutely.
    Fact remains, private cars are hopelssly selfish and consume vast amounts of resources compared to communal vehicles of various sorts. Even an Amazon delivery car is dozens of times better than driving to the local bookshop or W H Smiths.
    Load of crap. Private cars consume minimal amounts of resources per mile travelled. They're wonderfully efficient.

    Gram for gram my bike is a less efficient use of resources than my car.
    Remarkable economic and engineering analysis. If it were true ...

    Bujt it's not, because you have the rest of us pay much of the cost.
    It is true. And you haven't paid a single penny towards my vehicle, quite the opposite, my taxes fund so much more than my driving.

    My car weighs approximately 1220 kg. It has done just under 100k miles since I bought it new. I should pass the 100k mark this year.

    So looking at the car weight per mile that is about 82 miles per kg.

    But most of the time I have passengers in the vehicle. 2, 3 and sometimes 4. So let's estimate 250k total passenger miles travelled. That'd mean 205 passenger miles per kg of car weight. And that's disregarding the shopping etc transported too.

    My bike weighs about 10kg and I won't have done more than double digit miles in it. And I've never carried any passengers on my bike.
    I've done ~2k miles on my 10kg bike and ~10k miles in my 2400kg car.

    What do we conclude from that? As with you figures, I'd suggest: "nothing".

    Also, why are you dividing miles by mass? If anything, I'd multiply them for some indication of impact (wear on roads for example, indication of energy expended).
    Would make more sense to *multiply* mass x distance. And note he's omitting the car's own weight in that equation, or rather indeed using it as a divider. Which is cheating.
    Its not cheating, it is a divisor. I said that gram for gram my car is more efficient and it is, you need to divide distance by mass to calculate the distance travelled per kg of the vehicle.
    This has taken a weird turn.

    Perhaps you should add a 1 ton lead weight to the boot to make it more efficient?
    Adding a weight would make it less efficient though?

    100k miles / 1220kg = 82 miles travelled per kg.
    100k miles / 2220kg = 45 miles travelled per kg.

    Increasing the divisor lowers the value of what you're measuring, so of course weight is a divisor.
    In competitions sailplanes load up with water ballast to get round the course faster, just saying.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,955

    Carnyx said:

    Selebian said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    .

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    @MattW is the acknowledged expert on cycling infrastructure. I’m sure his predictions that cycling can be expected to triple in coming years is right.

    I’m hopeful about Birmingham and Nottingham too.

    I remember when I posted that it was a shame that cities outside London lacked cyclehire schemes and I was denounced as a cappuccino supping metro elitist.

    A small, but very useful scheme - Brompton offer cycle hire

    https://bromptonhire.com/our-locations/

    A number are next to rail/tube stations.

    I'm seeing on the trains an increasing number of people who've obviously hired one (the colour scheme is quiet, but noticeable) for a day out - train out to somewhere in the country side, unfold and ride.

    For those who don't know them, Brompton folding bikes are allowed on all trains because they are so compact. They are, in addition, very rideable, compared to other small wheel bikes.
    Bromptons are very cool, as well as a British manufacturing success story.
    I have a single speed titanium one with flat bars because that's just how I roll.

    They are not particularly 'rideable' because of a very short mechanical trail distance of 27mm. A normal bicycle has 40-65mm and therefore much stronger castering action. I have ridden mine over 60km in one ride though.
    What's the verdict on cargo ebikes? I'm tempted by something like a Tern or the cheaper Radwagon. Where we live, it'd make sense for me, rather than use the Transporter for a 10 minute drive to town. It'd be a crime to use my hardtail with panniers.
    Terns are I think well-thought of and robust, if somewhat expensive at £3-4k+. ie about 12-18 months of running costs for a small 2nd car.

    You can find E-Cargo bikes from about £1500, or secondhand, and they hold their value well.

    There are also good e-cargo-trikes.

    Some reviews:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-electric-cargo-bikes
    Some reviews of budget ones:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-e-cargo-bikes-under-3000-affordable-electric-bikes-to-do-the-job-of

    I bought my car for £3,000, and it can carry a family of five and all of their luggage for a fortnight away. Plus the dog.

    And the bike won’t go 80mph, do. 0-60 in six seconds, or make V8 noises. ULEZ compliant as well.
    (It’s a later model of this)
    [Picture of dog required for scale]
    Okay, nicked off the internet.
    (This is a later model of car)
    [Scale now obtained. Thank you, @Sandpit]
    As I always say, it's not a competition.

    What is your annual running cost, btw? *innocent face*
    Okay, I’ll bite.

    I’ve previously lived in places where work and home were 400m apart, and home was 100m from the station. Brilliant. No need for a car, take a taxi or rent one when required.

    Right now, I live 25km from work, and the journey is pretty much impossible by anything other than car. It’s 20m in the car, or nearly 2h by public transport (walk, bus, train, train, walk, boat, walk).

    The problem I have, is trying to fit one-size-fits-all solutions into a diverse population. People will change jobs, and transport methods that worked with old job no longer work with new job. Not just jobs either, people have regular appointments with schools, shops, social events, that can change over time.

    Having a car is a sunk cost; not just for the car, but for insurance, VED, servicing etc. Owning a house is an even bigger sunk cost; it’s often easier to accept an hour’s commute than to commit to spending five figures on moving house, even assuming that a similar house near new job can be purchased for similar money to the one you have already.

    Once you have a car the marginal cost of a single extra journey is tiny, compared to the cost of a bus or train journey for more than one person. If you’re on your own, the cost is about the same, but the difference in time and exposure to the weather is significantly different.

    The impression given by those wanting to increase cycling, is that it starts with a dislike of cars. Now, there’s silly drivers and silly cyclists out there, and the cyclists are in the more vulnerable position if there’s a collision between the two. I can understand that it makes sense to separate the traffic where possible, but most of the suggestions start with reducing the space available for cars, rather than first increasing the space for other transport methods and letting the change happen organically.

    Many people have no choice but to drive, they might have a complex schedule that involves getting the kids to school, going to work, running errands for their employer, picking up kids and going to activities etc, or they might just be like me, who’d rather spend 40m a day driving than 4h on public transport. I do occasionally take the public transport to work, if we went for beers afterwards and I took a taxi home.

    The personal motor car is possibly the greatest invention of the 20th century, in terms of the freedom it gives people to move around, to seek work, to better themselves, to spend more time with those they love.

    It comes across that there’s a concerted effort to regress on personal car ownership, for a wide range of different ideological positions. Whether it’s the cycling lobby, the bus lobby, the train lobby, the Uber lobby, the car-as-a-service lobby, or the environmental lobby, is almost irrelevant; the aim is to leave fewer people with the option to just jump in their own car and enjoy the freedom of the road.
    I agree with your entire post - just swap out "car" for "bicycle".

    The key reason that people don't cycle in the UK is that they are scared of getting hit by a car. The "freedom" to cycle around has been eroded by a constant threat of injury or death.

    And car ownership is closely related to wealth. The poor have no choice but to cycle, walk or use public transport. What of their "freedom"?

    Cars are late to this game. People were walking, and then cycling, around our towns and cities long before motorists came along. In the 1950s there was 8x as much cycling as there is now.
    For the vast majority of people, having their own car was massive progress over bikes and horses. Owning a car was aspirational, people with cars are mobile and can go from any major city to another within a day, unbeholden to anyone except themselves.

    I’m all in favour of better roads for those who want to cycle, but most of the cycling campaigners start from the premise that less road should be given over to cars, and work backwards from there.
    Fewer drivers = more road.
    No, more road = more road.

    90% of transportation miles are taken by drivers and that is consistent in pretty much all countries across Europe. This includes cyclists and public transportation.

    You can't induce demand much beyond 90%. And even if cycling in this country were to double and all of those extra cycling miles were removed from driving miles, you'd be removing less than 1% of cars from the road. Which would be entirely negated by population growth being over 1% per annum.
    I've been meaning to ask you.
    Do you like cars?
    Guessing this is sarcasm?

    Of course I do, they're great. Convenient, practical, efficient and they work. They're the best and most efficient form of transportation that exists.

    I also like bikes, they're fun recreationally too.

    The thing is that bikes are not an alternative to cars, in the same way as chocolate cake is not an alternative to a balanced diet.

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.
    Not for 83% of us :)

    More importantly, about 1 in 5 households in Hillingdon (and Havering) manage without any car or van at all. Even in Rishi's Richmondshire, it's 1 in 8.

    So, no- cars are not required. They might be useful, but they're not required. "I want" isn't the same as "I need", as granny used to say.
    Which is bollocks, I lived in slough almost 40 years....in all that time I had precisely 2 jobs in slough, I worked in wantage,epsom,reading,farnborough apart from that. Public transport was only viable for reading. None of those places was cyclable to. Just because you live in an urban area does not mean you will find a job in that urban area
    Here are the figures;

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/choropleth/housing/number-of-cars-or-vans/number-of-cars-3a/no-cars-or-vans-in-household?lad=E06000039

    20 percent of households in Slough.
    Sorry what point are you trying to make here? 80% of slough needs a car?
    No. What I am saying is that Bart's claim,

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.

    is demonstrably untrue. Plenty of functioning adults manage their lives perfectly well without driving a car, ever. On the latest stats, about 1 in 4 adults in England don't have a driving licence.

    That's not the case for everyone, sure. I'm not arguing for no cars at all anywhere, and you'd have to get pretty fringe to get that view.

    What I do think is that cars can be excellent servants, but appalling masters. If we try to put sufficient road and parking space in urban areas, we cut them in pieces and often kill the things that make them good places to live. By making roads less safe and public transport less viable, we (and this includes me) make life demonstrably worse for the 1 in 4 adults who don't drive and the young people who struggle to be independently mobile.

    And the evidence is that, if you create safe networks for walking and cycling, properly away from motorised traffic, people do use them as a serious way of getting bits of their daily business done. Which is good for everyone.
    Plenty of people get about by being passengers in cars yes, or relying upon others who drive cars in order to service their needs instead.

    Very few in modern society have nothing to do with cars, whether it be via being a passenger in one (inc taxis), or getting their post delivered, or parcels delivered, or going to shops which have cars, vans and trucks delivering their supplies.

    Even if you don't drive, you almost certainly have people who are driving assisting you in the way you live on an daily basis. That's how modern society exists and it is all the better for it.

    The evidence is that if you have safe networks for walking and cycling then a miniscule percentage of daily miles/km travelled is done that way, which is absolutely fine, but cars remain the overwhelming majority of transportation.

    Even in tiny Netherlands, the most bike-friendly country in the world, bikes account for single-digit percentage of total km travelled while cars make up over 75%.

    If you want to ride a bike a short distance then good luck to you, but unless you want to go back to 18th century standards of living, we need cars in the real world.

    Er. 'Car' usually means 'private car'. Not delivery van, bus, minibus ... which is sort of the entire theme of all your posts as road warrior in backless gloves in his Rover 2000.
    Actually vans, buses, minibuses, etc are simply different types of cars. And if you order off Amazon or other delivery suppliers then a significant portion of those deliveries are made by someone else's private car anyway. Plus if we're talking about investment in roads, or closing roads, then absolutely all of those vehicles need roads every bit as much as private cars do.

    I've never driven a Rover, nor are my posts remotely road warrior unless you're an absolutely crazy anti-car fanatic - which this site seems to have a completely disproportionate amount of.

    I've been consistently pro opening new roads for improving cycling and other demands which is win/win.

    What I'm against is cutting capacity for over 90% of our transportation without any alternative. Build roads and you can add better cycling and walking capacity absolutely.
    Fact remains, private cars are hopelssly selfish and consume vast amounts of resources compared to communal vehicles of various sorts. Even an Amazon delivery car is dozens of times better than driving to the local bookshop or W H Smiths.
    Load of crap. Private cars consume minimal amounts of resources per mile travelled. They're wonderfully efficient.

    Gram for gram my bike is a less efficient use of resources than my car.
    Remarkable economic and engineering analysis. If it were true ...

    Bujt it's not, because you have the rest of us pay much of the cost.
    It is true. And you haven't paid a single penny towards my vehicle, quite the opposite, my taxes fund so much more than my driving.

    My car weighs approximately 1220 kg. It has done just under 100k miles since I bought it new. I should pass the 100k mark this year.

    So looking at the car weight per mile that is about 82 miles per kg.

    But most of the time I have passengers in the vehicle. 2, 3 and sometimes 4. So let's estimate 250k total passenger miles travelled. That'd mean 205 passenger miles per kg of car weight. And that's disregarding the shopping etc transported too.

    My bike weighs about 10kg and I won't have done more than double digit miles in it. And I've never carried any passengers on my bike.
    I've done ~2k miles on my 10kg bike and ~10k miles in my 2400kg car.

    What do we conclude from that? As with you figures, I'd suggest: "nothing".

    Also, why are you dividing miles by mass? If anything, I'd multiply them for some indication of impact (wear on roads for example, indication of energy expended).
    Would make more sense to *multiply* mass x distance. And note he's omitting the car's own weight in that equation, or rather indeed using it as a divider. Which is cheating.
    Its not cheating, it is a divisor. I said that gram for gram my car is more efficient and it is, you need to divide distance by mass to calculate the distance travelled per kg of the vehicle.
    This has taken a weird turn.

    Perhaps you should add a 1 ton lead weight to the boot to make it more efficient?
    Adding a weight would make it less efficient though?

    100k miles / 1220kg = 82 miles travelled per kg.
    100k miles / 2220kg = 45 miles travelled per kg.

    Since miles are the positive measure and more miles per kg is more efficient, then having a bigger divisor lowers efficiency, it doesn't boost it. That's basic mathematics. Multiplying would be c heating.

    Increasing the divisor lowers the value of what you're measuring, so of course weight is a divisor.
    It's the calves, isn't it?

    The size. The definition.

    Only matched by posties.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,364

    Carnyx said:

    Selebian said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    .

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    @MattW is the acknowledged expert on cycling infrastructure. I’m sure his predictions that cycling can be expected to triple in coming years is right.

    I’m hopeful about Birmingham and Nottingham too.

    I remember when I posted that it was a shame that cities outside London lacked cyclehire schemes and I was denounced as a cappuccino supping metro elitist.

    A small, but very useful scheme - Brompton offer cycle hire

    https://bromptonhire.com/our-locations/

    A number are next to rail/tube stations.

    I'm seeing on the trains an increasing number of people who've obviously hired one (the colour scheme is quiet, but noticeable) for a day out - train out to somewhere in the country side, unfold and ride.

    For those who don't know them, Brompton folding bikes are allowed on all trains because they are so compact. They are, in addition, very rideable, compared to other small wheel bikes.
    Bromptons are very cool, as well as a British manufacturing success story.
    I have a single speed titanium one with flat bars because that's just how I roll.

    They are not particularly 'rideable' because of a very short mechanical trail distance of 27mm. A normal bicycle has 40-65mm and therefore much stronger castering action. I have ridden mine over 60km in one ride though.
    What's the verdict on cargo ebikes? I'm tempted by something like a Tern or the cheaper Radwagon. Where we live, it'd make sense for me, rather than use the Transporter for a 10 minute drive to town. It'd be a crime to use my hardtail with panniers.
    Terns are I think well-thought of and robust, if somewhat expensive at £3-4k+. ie about 12-18 months of running costs for a small 2nd car.

    You can find E-Cargo bikes from about £1500, or secondhand, and they hold their value well.

    There are also good e-cargo-trikes.

    Some reviews:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-electric-cargo-bikes
    Some reviews of budget ones:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-e-cargo-bikes-under-3000-affordable-electric-bikes-to-do-the-job-of

    I bought my car for £3,000, and it can carry a family of five and all of their luggage for a fortnight away. Plus the dog.

    And the bike won’t go 80mph, do. 0-60 in six seconds, or make V8 noises. ULEZ compliant as well.
    (It’s a later model of this)
    [Picture of dog required for scale]
    Okay, nicked off the internet.
    (This is a later model of car)
    [Scale now obtained. Thank you, @Sandpit]
    As I always say, it's not a competition.

    What is your annual running cost, btw? *innocent face*
    Okay, I’ll bite.

    I’ve previously lived in places where work and home were 400m apart, and home was 100m from the station. Brilliant. No need for a car, take a taxi or rent one when required.

    Right now, I live 25km from work, and the journey is pretty much impossible by anything other than car. It’s 20m in the car, or nearly 2h by public transport (walk, bus, train, train, walk, boat, walk).

    The problem I have, is trying to fit one-size-fits-all solutions into a diverse population. People will change jobs, and transport methods that worked with old job no longer work with new job. Not just jobs either, people have regular appointments with schools, shops, social events, that can change over time.

    Having a car is a sunk cost; not just for the car, but for insurance, VED, servicing etc. Owning a house is an even bigger sunk cost; it’s often easier to accept an hour’s commute than to commit to spending five figures on moving house, even assuming that a similar house near new job can be purchased for similar money to the one you have already.

    Once you have a car the marginal cost of a single extra journey is tiny, compared to the cost of a bus or train journey for more than one person. If you’re on your own, the cost is about the same, but the difference in time and exposure to the weather is significantly different.

    The impression given by those wanting to increase cycling, is that it starts with a dislike of cars. Now, there’s silly drivers and silly cyclists out there, and the cyclists are in the more vulnerable position if there’s a collision between the two. I can understand that it makes sense to separate the traffic where possible, but most of the suggestions start with reducing the space available for cars, rather than first increasing the space for other transport methods and letting the change happen organically.

    Many people have no choice but to drive, they might have a complex schedule that involves getting the kids to school, going to work, running errands for their employer, picking up kids and going to activities etc, or they might just be like me, who’d rather spend 40m a day driving than 4h on public transport. I do occasionally take the public transport to work, if we went for beers afterwards and I took a taxi home.

    The personal motor car is possibly the greatest invention of the 20th century, in terms of the freedom it gives people to move around, to seek work, to better themselves, to spend more time with those they love.

    It comes across that there’s a concerted effort to regress on personal car ownership, for a wide range of different ideological positions. Whether it’s the cycling lobby, the bus lobby, the train lobby, the Uber lobby, the car-as-a-service lobby, or the environmental lobby, is almost irrelevant; the aim is to leave fewer people with the option to just jump in their own car and enjoy the freedom of the road.
    I agree with your entire post - just swap out "car" for "bicycle".

    The key reason that people don't cycle in the UK is that they are scared of getting hit by a car. The "freedom" to cycle around has been eroded by a constant threat of injury or death.

    And car ownership is closely related to wealth. The poor have no choice but to cycle, walk or use public transport. What of their "freedom"?

    Cars are late to this game. People were walking, and then cycling, around our towns and cities long before motorists came along. In the 1950s there was 8x as much cycling as there is now.
    For the vast majority of people, having their own car was massive progress over bikes and horses. Owning a car was aspirational, people with cars are mobile and can go from any major city to another within a day, unbeholden to anyone except themselves.

    I’m all in favour of better roads for those who want to cycle, but most of the cycling campaigners start from the premise that less road should be given over to cars, and work backwards from there.
    Fewer drivers = more road.
    No, more road = more road.

    90% of transportation miles are taken by drivers and that is consistent in pretty much all countries across Europe. This includes cyclists and public transportation.

    You can't induce demand much beyond 90%. And even if cycling in this country were to double and all of those extra cycling miles were removed from driving miles, you'd be removing less than 1% of cars from the road. Which would be entirely negated by population growth being over 1% per annum.
    I've been meaning to ask you.
    Do you like cars?
    Guessing this is sarcasm?

    Of course I do, they're great. Convenient, practical, efficient and they work. They're the best and most efficient form of transportation that exists.

    I also like bikes, they're fun recreationally too.

    The thing is that bikes are not an alternative to cars, in the same way as chocolate cake is not an alternative to a balanced diet.

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.
    Not for 83% of us :)

    More importantly, about 1 in 5 households in Hillingdon (and Havering) manage without any car or van at all. Even in Rishi's Richmondshire, it's 1 in 8.

    So, no- cars are not required. They might be useful, but they're not required. "I want" isn't the same as "I need", as granny used to say.
    Which is bollocks, I lived in slough almost 40 years....in all that time I had precisely 2 jobs in slough, I worked in wantage,epsom,reading,farnborough apart from that. Public transport was only viable for reading. None of those places was cyclable to. Just because you live in an urban area does not mean you will find a job in that urban area
    Here are the figures;

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/choropleth/housing/number-of-cars-or-vans/number-of-cars-3a/no-cars-or-vans-in-household?lad=E06000039

    20 percent of households in Slough.
    Sorry what point are you trying to make here? 80% of slough needs a car?
    No. What I am saying is that Bart's claim,

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.

    is demonstrably untrue. Plenty of functioning adults manage their lives perfectly well without driving a car, ever. On the latest stats, about 1 in 4 adults in England don't have a driving licence.

    That's not the case for everyone, sure. I'm not arguing for no cars at all anywhere, and you'd have to get pretty fringe to get that view.

    What I do think is that cars can be excellent servants, but appalling masters. If we try to put sufficient road and parking space in urban areas, we cut them in pieces and often kill the things that make them good places to live. By making roads less safe and public transport less viable, we (and this includes me) make life demonstrably worse for the 1 in 4 adults who don't drive and the young people who struggle to be independently mobile.

    And the evidence is that, if you create safe networks for walking and cycling, properly away from motorised traffic, people do use them as a serious way of getting bits of their daily business done. Which is good for everyone.
    Plenty of people get about by being passengers in cars yes, or relying upon others who drive cars in order to service their needs instead.

    Very few in modern society have nothing to do with cars, whether it be via being a passenger in one (inc taxis), or getting their post delivered, or parcels delivered, or going to shops which have cars, vans and trucks delivering their supplies.

    Even if you don't drive, you almost certainly have people who are driving assisting you in the way you live on an daily basis. That's how modern society exists and it is all the better for it.

    The evidence is that if you have safe networks for walking and cycling then a miniscule percentage of daily miles/km travelled is done that way, which is absolutely fine, but cars remain the overwhelming majority of transportation.

    Even in tiny Netherlands, the most bike-friendly country in the world, bikes account for single-digit percentage of total km travelled while cars make up over 75%.

    If you want to ride a bike a short distance then good luck to you, but unless you want to go back to 18th century standards of living, we need cars in the real world.

    Er. 'Car' usually means 'private car'. Not delivery van, bus, minibus ... which is sort of the entire theme of all your posts as road warrior in backless gloves in his Rover 2000.
    Actually vans, buses, minibuses, etc are simply different types of cars. And if you order off Amazon or other delivery suppliers then a significant portion of those deliveries are made by someone else's private car anyway. Plus if we're talking about investment in roads, or closing roads, then absolutely all of those vehicles need roads every bit as much as private cars do.

    I've never driven a Rover, nor are my posts remotely road warrior unless you're an absolutely crazy anti-car fanatic - which this site seems to have a completely disproportionate amount of.

    I've been consistently pro opening new roads for improving cycling and other demands which is win/win.

    What I'm against is cutting capacity for over 90% of our transportation without any alternative. Build roads and you can add better cycling and walking capacity absolutely.
    Fact remains, private cars are hopelssly selfish and consume vast amounts of resources compared to communal vehicles of various sorts. Even an Amazon delivery car is dozens of times better than driving to the local bookshop or W H Smiths.
    Load of crap. Private cars consume minimal amounts of resources per mile travelled. They're wonderfully efficient.

    Gram for gram my bike is a less efficient use of resources than my car.
    Remarkable economic and engineering analysis. If it were true ...

    Bujt it's not, because you have the rest of us pay much of the cost.
    It is true. And you haven't paid a single penny towards my vehicle, quite the opposite, my taxes fund so much more than my driving.

    My car weighs approximately 1220 kg. It has done just under 100k miles since I bought it new. I should pass the 100k mark this year.

    So looking at the car weight per mile that is about 82 miles per kg.

    But most of the time I have passengers in the vehicle. 2, 3 and sometimes 4. So let's estimate 250k total passenger miles travelled. That'd mean 205 passenger miles per kg of car weight. And that's disregarding the shopping etc transported too.

    My bike weighs about 10kg and I won't have done more than double digit miles in it. And I've never carried any passengers on my bike.
    I've done ~2k miles on my 10kg bike and ~10k miles in my 2400kg car.

    What do we conclude from that? As with you figures, I'd suggest: "nothing".

    Also, why are you dividing miles by mass? If anything, I'd multiply them for some indication of impact (wear on roads for example, indication of energy expended).
    Would make more sense to *multiply* mass x distance. And note he's omitting the car's own weight in that equation, or rather indeed using it as a divider. Which is cheating.
    Its not cheating, it is a divisor. I said that gram for gram my car is more efficient and it is, you need to divide distance by mass to calculate the distance travelled per kg of the vehicle.
    You're forgetting physics. Energy consumed is a function of mass, as well as speed and acceleration (in complex ways, e.g. because of fruction).
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    What saves Sunak is an Event, dear boy.

    I don't know what sort of Event, but it would have to be a jolly big one. And probably not the one referenced in the Mitchell and Webb "Remain Indoors" sketches.

    But if Rishi goes into the election having to persuade people, it's just not going to work, unless he is using this holiday to have a Complete Personality Transplant operation.

    The 'event' would have to be something big and negative for Labour. Which I don't see because Starmer owns the party now and is taking no risks whatsoever. Absolutely nothing gets out (policy or messaging) that might upset the sort of voters he needs to win and hence is targeting (being red wall leavers and apolitical floaters).
    Its not going to happen as Starmer isn't completely crazy, but if Labour adopted the anti-car attitude shown by many people here in recent days then that could turn every marginal constituency against Labour.

    The election is decided by drivers. Starmer isn't stupid enough to be anti-driver.
    'Driver' is not most people's primary identity though. You are unusual in this respect.
    Its not my primary identity either. When its the topic of conversation, then it is relevant, and if Labour makes this a big clash by running on an anti-driver agenda, then that would put off a lot of people in marginal constituencies.

    Its why Blair was always keen to keep drivers on board and so will Starmer be. Quite rightly too.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,910
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The biggest change Sunak needs is for inflation to keep falling. The less voters are worried about cost of living the less they will feel a need to change government, some tax cuts too once that is done would also help swing undecideds back to the Tories

    I don't think so. Major had more or less got the economy back on track by 1997 but the voters had already decided and thus the Tories were screwed. Same this time.

    For nothing now can ever come to any good with this Conservative administration.
    Major was facing Blair who is both more charismatic than Starmer and even more centrist. Major also had the legacy of Black Wednesday.

    1992 was 18 years into Tory government too, 2024 will be only 14 years into Tory government ie closer to the 13 years of 1992 when Major beat Kinnock against the odds when most polls had Labour ahead
    Blair may have been more charismatic than Starmer, but Major was miles more charismatic than Sunak.

    Major on his soapbox was quite formidable. That's how he won 1992. Sunak has none of that.
    Against Kinnock and Sunak comes across as more competent and in charge of his party than Major 1997 did
    Con maj on at 17/2. Tempted?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,364

    Carnyx said:

    Selebian said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    .

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    @MattW is the acknowledged expert on cycling infrastructure. I’m sure his predictions that cycling can be expected to triple in coming years is right.

    I’m hopeful about Birmingham and Nottingham too.

    I remember when I posted that it was a shame that cities outside London lacked cyclehire schemes and I was denounced as a cappuccino supping metro elitist.

    A small, but very useful scheme - Brompton offer cycle hire

    https://bromptonhire.com/our-locations/

    A number are next to rail/tube stations.

    I'm seeing on the trains an increasing number of people who've obviously hired one (the colour scheme is quiet, but noticeable) for a day out - train out to somewhere in the country side, unfold and ride.

    For those who don't know them, Brompton folding bikes are allowed on all trains because they are so compact. They are, in addition, very rideable, compared to other small wheel bikes.
    Bromptons are very cool, as well as a British manufacturing success story.
    I have a single speed titanium one with flat bars because that's just how I roll.

    They are not particularly 'rideable' because of a very short mechanical trail distance of 27mm. A normal bicycle has 40-65mm and therefore much stronger castering action. I have ridden mine over 60km in one ride though.
    What's the verdict on cargo ebikes? I'm tempted by something like a Tern or the cheaper Radwagon. Where we live, it'd make sense for me, rather than use the Transporter for a 10 minute drive to town. It'd be a crime to use my hardtail with panniers.
    Terns are I think well-thought of and robust, if somewhat expensive at £3-4k+. ie about 12-18 months of running costs for a small 2nd car.

    You can find E-Cargo bikes from about £1500, or secondhand, and they hold their value well.

    There are also good e-cargo-trikes.

    Some reviews:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-electric-cargo-bikes
    Some reviews of budget ones:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-e-cargo-bikes-under-3000-affordable-electric-bikes-to-do-the-job-of

    I bought my car for £3,000, and it can carry a family of five and all of their luggage for a fortnight away. Plus the dog.

    And the bike won’t go 80mph, do. 0-60 in six seconds, or make V8 noises. ULEZ compliant as well.
    (It’s a later model of this)
    [Picture of dog required for scale]
    Okay, nicked off the internet.
    (This is a later model of car)
    [Scale now obtained. Thank you, @Sandpit]
    As I always say, it's not a competition.

    What is your annual running cost, btw? *innocent face*
    Okay, I’ll bite.

    I’ve previously lived in places where work and home were 400m apart, and home was 100m from the station. Brilliant. No need for a car, take a taxi or rent one when required.

    Right now, I live 25km from work, and the journey is pretty much impossible by anything other than car. It’s 20m in the car, or nearly 2h by public transport (walk, bus, train, train, walk, boat, walk).

    The problem I have, is trying to fit one-size-fits-all solutions into a diverse population. People will change jobs, and transport methods that worked with old job no longer work with new job. Not just jobs either, people have regular appointments with schools, shops, social events, that can change over time.

    Having a car is a sunk cost; not just for the car, but for insurance, VED, servicing etc. Owning a house is an even bigger sunk cost; it’s often easier to accept an hour’s commute than to commit to spending five figures on moving house, even assuming that a similar house near new job can be purchased for similar money to the one you have already.

    Once you have a car the marginal cost of a single extra journey is tiny, compared to the cost of a bus or train journey for more than one person. If you’re on your own, the cost is about the same, but the difference in time and exposure to the weather is significantly different.

    The impression given by those wanting to increase cycling, is that it starts with a dislike of cars. Now, there’s silly drivers and silly cyclists out there, and the cyclists are in the more vulnerable position if there’s a collision between the two. I can understand that it makes sense to separate the traffic where possible, but most of the suggestions start with reducing the space available for cars, rather than first increasing the space for other transport methods and letting the change happen organically.

    Many people have no choice but to drive, they might have a complex schedule that involves getting the kids to school, going to work, running errands for their employer, picking up kids and going to activities etc, or they might just be like me, who’d rather spend 40m a day driving than 4h on public transport. I do occasionally take the public transport to work, if we went for beers afterwards and I took a taxi home.

    The personal motor car is possibly the greatest invention of the 20th century, in terms of the freedom it gives people to move around, to seek work, to better themselves, to spend more time with those they love.

    It comes across that there’s a concerted effort to regress on personal car ownership, for a wide range of different ideological positions. Whether it’s the cycling lobby, the bus lobby, the train lobby, the Uber lobby, the car-as-a-service lobby, or the environmental lobby, is almost irrelevant; the aim is to leave fewer people with the option to just jump in their own car and enjoy the freedom of the road.
    I agree with your entire post - just swap out "car" for "bicycle".

    The key reason that people don't cycle in the UK is that they are scared of getting hit by a car. The "freedom" to cycle around has been eroded by a constant threat of injury or death.

    And car ownership is closely related to wealth. The poor have no choice but to cycle, walk or use public transport. What of their "freedom"?

    Cars are late to this game. People were walking, and then cycling, around our towns and cities long before motorists came along. In the 1950s there was 8x as much cycling as there is now.
    For the vast majority of people, having their own car was massive progress over bikes and horses. Owning a car was aspirational, people with cars are mobile and can go from any major city to another within a day, unbeholden to anyone except themselves.

    I’m all in favour of better roads for those who want to cycle, but most of the cycling campaigners start from the premise that less road should be given over to cars, and work backwards from there.
    Fewer drivers = more road.
    No, more road = more road.

    90% of transportation miles are taken by drivers and that is consistent in pretty much all countries across Europe. This includes cyclists and public transportation.

    You can't induce demand much beyond 90%. And even if cycling in this country were to double and all of those extra cycling miles were removed from driving miles, you'd be removing less than 1% of cars from the road. Which would be entirely negated by population growth being over 1% per annum.
    I've been meaning to ask you.
    Do you like cars?
    Guessing this is sarcasm?

    Of course I do, they're great. Convenient, practical, efficient and they work. They're the best and most efficient form of transportation that exists.

    I also like bikes, they're fun recreationally too.

    The thing is that bikes are not an alternative to cars, in the same way as chocolate cake is not an alternative to a balanced diet.

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.
    Not for 83% of us :)

    More importantly, about 1 in 5 households in Hillingdon (and Havering) manage without any car or van at all. Even in Rishi's Richmondshire, it's 1 in 8.

    So, no- cars are not required. They might be useful, but they're not required. "I want" isn't the same as "I need", as granny used to say.
    Which is bollocks, I lived in slough almost 40 years....in all that time I had precisely 2 jobs in slough, I worked in wantage,epsom,reading,farnborough apart from that. Public transport was only viable for reading. None of those places was cyclable to. Just because you live in an urban area does not mean you will find a job in that urban area
    Here are the figures;

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/choropleth/housing/number-of-cars-or-vans/number-of-cars-3a/no-cars-or-vans-in-household?lad=E06000039

    20 percent of households in Slough.
    Sorry what point are you trying to make here? 80% of slough needs a car?
    No. What I am saying is that Bart's claim,

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.

    is demonstrably untrue. Plenty of functioning adults manage their lives perfectly well without driving a car, ever. On the latest stats, about 1 in 4 adults in England don't have a driving licence.

    That's not the case for everyone, sure. I'm not arguing for no cars at all anywhere, and you'd have to get pretty fringe to get that view.

    What I do think is that cars can be excellent servants, but appalling masters. If we try to put sufficient road and parking space in urban areas, we cut them in pieces and often kill the things that make them good places to live. By making roads less safe and public transport less viable, we (and this includes me) make life demonstrably worse for the 1 in 4 adults who don't drive and the young people who struggle to be independently mobile.

    And the evidence is that, if you create safe networks for walking and cycling, properly away from motorised traffic, people do use them as a serious way of getting bits of their daily business done. Which is good for everyone.
    Plenty of people get about by being passengers in cars yes, or relying upon others who drive cars in order to service their needs instead.

    Very few in modern society have nothing to do with cars, whether it be via being a passenger in one (inc taxis), or getting their post delivered, or parcels delivered, or going to shops which have cars, vans and trucks delivering their supplies.

    Even if you don't drive, you almost certainly have people who are driving assisting you in the way you live on an daily basis. That's how modern society exists and it is all the better for it.

    The evidence is that if you have safe networks for walking and cycling then a miniscule percentage of daily miles/km travelled is done that way, which is absolutely fine, but cars remain the overwhelming majority of transportation.

    Even in tiny Netherlands, the most bike-friendly country in the world, bikes account for single-digit percentage of total km travelled while cars make up over 75%.

    If you want to ride a bike a short distance then good luck to you, but unless you want to go back to 18th century standards of living, we need cars in the real world.

    Er. 'Car' usually means 'private car'. Not delivery van, bus, minibus ... which is sort of the entire theme of all your posts as road warrior in backless gloves in his Rover 2000.
    Actually vans, buses, minibuses, etc are simply different types of cars. And if you order off Amazon or other delivery suppliers then a significant portion of those deliveries are made by someone else's private car anyway. Plus if we're talking about investment in roads, or closing roads, then absolutely all of those vehicles need roads every bit as much as private cars do.

    I've never driven a Rover, nor are my posts remotely road warrior unless you're an absolutely crazy anti-car fanatic - which this site seems to have a completely disproportionate amount of.

    I've been consistently pro opening new roads for improving cycling and other demands which is win/win.

    What I'm against is cutting capacity for over 90% of our transportation without any alternative. Build roads and you can add better cycling and walking capacity absolutely.
    Fact remains, private cars are hopelssly selfish and consume vast amounts of resources compared to communal vehicles of various sorts. Even an Amazon delivery car is dozens of times better than driving to the local bookshop or W H Smiths.
    Load of crap. Private cars consume minimal amounts of resources per mile travelled. They're wonderfully efficient.

    Gram for gram my bike is a less efficient use of resources than my car.
    Remarkable economic and engineering analysis. If it were true ...

    Bujt it's not, because you have the rest of us pay much of the cost.
    It is true. And you haven't paid a single penny towards my vehicle, quite the opposite, my taxes fund so much more than my driving.

    My car weighs approximately 1220 kg. It has done just under 100k miles since I bought it new. I should pass the 100k mark this year.

    So looking at the car weight per mile that is about 82 miles per kg.

    But most of the time I have passengers in the vehicle. 2, 3 and sometimes 4. So let's estimate 250k total passenger miles travelled. That'd mean 205 passenger miles per kg of car weight. And that's disregarding the shopping etc transported too.

    My bike weighs about 10kg and I won't have done more than double digit miles in it. And I've never carried any passengers on my bike.
    I've done ~2k miles on my 10kg bike and ~10k miles in my 2400kg car.

    What do we conclude from that? As with you figures, I'd suggest: "nothing".

    Also, why are you dividing miles by mass? If anything, I'd multiply them for some indication of impact (wear on roads for example, indication of energy expended).
    Would make more sense to *multiply* mass x distance. And note he's omitting the car's own weight in that equation, or rather indeed using it as a divider. Which is cheating.
    Its not cheating, it is a divisor. I said that gram for gram my car is more efficient and it is, you need to divide distance by mass to calculate the distance travelled per kg of the vehicle.
    This has taken a weird turn.

    Perhaps you should add a 1 ton lead weight to the boot to make it more efficient?
    Adding a weight would make it less efficient though?

    100k miles / 1220kg = 82 miles travelled per kg.
    100k miles / 2220kg = 45 miles travelled per kg.

    Since miles are the positive measure and more miles per kg is more efficient, then having a bigger divisor lowers efficiency, it doesn't boost it. That's basic mathematics.

    Increasing the divisor lowers the value of what you're measuring, so of course weight is a divisor.

    Multiplying would be cheating.
    We are talking about *energy consumed* in transit, not mass lugged around. More mass, more energy consumed, more waste and selfishness.

  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,061
    HYUFD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    viewcode said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    My Rutherglen & Hamilton West post on whether there is anything unusual to be gleaned from the Local Elections.

    So my normal approach would be to base on the LE22 round and then see if there is any forward facing data since then

    Rutherglen & Hamilton West LE22 gave:
    SNP 39.2 (-5.0 on GE19)
    Lab 34.1 (-0.4)
    Con 11.0 (-4.0)
    LD 11.0 (+5.8)
    Others (mainly Green) 4.6 (+3.4)

    To my eyes a lot of the movement here is that of an STV election vs an FPTP election, a lot of that lost SNP vote is hidden in Others and likely to return as at this point.

    So, LE22 is not too far away from GE19.

    In terms of actual election swings since then, there have been 5 local by-elections in Scotland this year, 3 with Labour as the challengers. Swings away from the SNP on the first vote have been steady and consistent:

    In Stirling SNP to Con challenger swing was 5.5%
    In Edinburgh SNP to LD swing was 6%
    In Aberdeen SNP to Lab was 9%
    In the Lanarkshires (though neither in this constituency) SNP to Lab were 11 and 13.5% respectively.

    I don't know if it's the somewhat evened out political environment, large multi member wards, full slates of candidates, STV or what, but Scottish local elections and by elections, outside the Independent lands at least, show little of the madness that is often on show in England. Whenever I look things seem smooth, indicative and fairly well aligned with the polls.

    If a 10ish% swing to Labour does not materialize, I think that will reflect back something hitherto unknown about the Scottish attitudes to GE24 and would be far more telling than Uxbridge ever was. Labour need the boring result that every indicator suggests will happen. The chance of that is non-zero, this will be the first politician sent to London from Scotland since Airdrie and Shotts returned Anum Qaisar in sunnier SNP days.



    Curse of the long post / new thread
    Please don't think me stupid, but the salient point did rather get lost in the detail. Do you think Labour will win Rutherglen and Hamilton or not?
    Fair cop. That non-zero sentence didn't quite do the job.

    The boring result seems the most likely (broadly Labour winning by a similar or slightly smaller % margin than the current SNP margin), but there is a non-zero chance of some Scottish reaction against London Labour, and the earlier quoted 10/1 on the SNP seems modest value to me.
    I expect the vote in Rutherglen will be largely anti Yousaf and anti SNP
    To put the cat among the pigeons, Alba, and specifically Salmond, should contest the by election.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,937
    edited August 2023

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The biggest change Sunak needs is for inflation to keep falling. The less voters are worried about cost of living the less they will feel a need to change government, some tax cuts too once that is done would also help swing undecideds back to the Tories

    I don't think so. Major had more or less got the economy back on track by 1997 but the voters had already decided and thus the Tories were screwed. Same this time.

    For nothing now can ever come to any good with this Conservative administration.
    Major was facing Blair who is both more charismatic than Starmer and even more centrist. Major also had the legacy of Black Wednesday.

    1992 was 18 years into Tory government too, 2024 will be only 14 years into Tory government ie closer to the 13 years of 1992 when Major beat Kinnock against the odds when most polls had Labour ahead
    Blair may have been more charismatic than Starmer, but Major was miles more charismatic than Sunak.

    Major on his soapbox was quite formidable. That's how he won 1992. Sunak has none of that.
    Against Kinnock and Sunak comes across as more competent and in charge of his party than Major 1997 did
    Con maj on at 17/2. Tempted?
    No but I think it will be closer than expected, remember at this stage in 2009 polls showed Cameron was heading for a landslide over Brown
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    nico679 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    The biggest change Sunak needs is for inflation to keep falling. The less voters are worried about cost of living the less they will feel a need to change government, some tax cuts too once that is done would also help swing undecideds back to the Tories

    "inflation falls" does not mean "cheaper prices"; in the current context it means "prices that have already gone up a lot more than wages and which are still going up".
    Very good point. If inflation falls to 5% Sunak will say 'my promise has been delivered' while Joe Public is still seeing everything costing more than it did last year.
    There's a great deal of deliberate obfuscation of the first and second order derivatives of the price variablewith the price variable itself in Toryspeak at the moment. In fact there has been a great deal for the last year or so since inflation became even more of an issue than usual. But, ass you say, it risks being counterproductive.
    Similarly with the deliberate use of 'debt' when they (presumably*) mean deficit, although public deficit/debt is less in voters' faces than inflation.

    (*Because no way is debt going to reduce in the lifetime of this parliament.)
    Actually they do mean debt. The debt ratio specifically.

    Debt to GDP falling is the target.
    Most of the public wouldn’t have a clue what debt to GDP falling means or even would care .

    The poisoned dwarf needs to stfu about his now tiresome list . The public are bored to death of hearing about it .
    He will stfu about it, because he's failing miserably. Journos and Labour however will want to keep bringing it up at every opportunity.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 22,399
    edited August 2023
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Selebian said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    .

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    @MattW is the acknowledged expert on cycling infrastructure. I’m sure his predictions that cycling can be expected to triple in coming years is right.

    I’m hopeful about Birmingham and Nottingham too.

    I remember when I posted that it was a shame that cities outside London lacked cyclehire schemes and I was denounced as a cappuccino supping metro elitist.

    A small, but very useful scheme - Brompton offer cycle hire

    https://bromptonhire.com/our-locations/

    A number are next to rail/tube stations.

    I'm seeing on the trains an increasing number of people who've obviously hired one (the colour scheme is quiet, but noticeable) for a day out - train out to somewhere in the country side, unfold and ride.

    For those who don't know them, Brompton folding bikes are allowed on all trains because they are so compact. They are, in addition, very rideable, compared to other small wheel bikes.
    Bromptons are very cool, as well as a British manufacturing success story.
    I have a single speed titanium one with flat bars because that's just how I roll.

    They are not particularly 'rideable' because of a very short mechanical trail distance of 27mm. A normal bicycle has 40-65mm and therefore much stronger castering action. I have ridden mine over 60km in one ride though.
    What's the verdict on cargo ebikes? I'm tempted by something like a Tern or the cheaper Radwagon. Where we live, it'd make sense for me, rather than use the Transporter for a 10 minute drive to town. It'd be a crime to use my hardtail with panniers.
    Terns are I think well-thought of and robust, if somewhat expensive at £3-4k+. ie about 12-18 months of running costs for a small 2nd car.

    You can find E-Cargo bikes from about £1500, or secondhand, and they hold their value well.

    There are also good e-cargo-trikes.

    Some reviews:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-electric-cargo-bikes
    Some reviews of budget ones:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-e-cargo-bikes-under-3000-affordable-electric-bikes-to-do-the-job-of

    I bought my car for £3,000, and it can carry a family of five and all of their luggage for a fortnight away. Plus the dog.

    And the bike won’t go 80mph, do. 0-60 in six seconds, or make V8 noises. ULEZ compliant as well.
    (It’s a later model of this)
    [Picture of dog required for scale]
    Okay, nicked off the internet.
    (This is a later model of car)
    [Scale now obtained. Thank you, @Sandpit]
    As I always say, it's not a competition.

    What is your annual running cost, btw? *innocent face*
    Okay, I’ll bite.

    I’ve previously lived in places where work and home were 400m apart, and home was 100m from the station. Brilliant. No need for a car, take a taxi or rent one when required.

    Right now, I live 25km from work, and the journey is pretty much impossible by anything other than car. It’s 20m in the car, or nearly 2h by public transport (walk, bus, train, train, walk, boat, walk).

    The problem I have, is trying to fit one-size-fits-all solutions into a diverse population. People will change jobs, and transport methods that worked with old job no longer work with new job. Not just jobs either, people have regular appointments with schools, shops, social events, that can change over time.

    Having a car is a sunk cost; not just for the car, but for insurance, VED, servicing etc. Owning a house is an even bigger sunk cost; it’s often easier to accept an hour’s commute than to commit to spending five figures on moving house, even assuming that a similar house near new job can be purchased for similar money to the one you have already.

    Once you have a car the marginal cost of a single extra journey is tiny, compared to the cost of a bus or train journey for more than one person. If you’re on your own, the cost is about the same, but the difference in time and exposure to the weather is significantly different.

    The impression given by those wanting to increase cycling, is that it starts with a dislike of cars. Now, there’s silly drivers and silly cyclists out there, and the cyclists are in the more vulnerable position if there’s a collision between the two. I can understand that it makes sense to separate the traffic where possible, but most of the suggestions start with reducing the space available for cars, rather than first increasing the space for other transport methods and letting the change happen organically.

    Many people have no choice but to drive, they might have a complex schedule that involves getting the kids to school, going to work, running errands for their employer, picking up kids and going to activities etc, or they might just be like me, who’d rather spend 40m a day driving than 4h on public transport. I do occasionally take the public transport to work, if we went for beers afterwards and I took a taxi home.

    The personal motor car is possibly the greatest invention of the 20th century, in terms of the freedom it gives people to move around, to seek work, to better themselves, to spend more time with those they love.

    It comes across that there’s a concerted effort to regress on personal car ownership, for a wide range of different ideological positions. Whether it’s the cycling lobby, the bus lobby, the train lobby, the Uber lobby, the car-as-a-service lobby, or the environmental lobby, is almost irrelevant; the aim is to leave fewer people with the option to just jump in their own car and enjoy the freedom of the road.
    I agree with your entire post - just swap out "car" for "bicycle".

    The key reason that people don't cycle in the UK is that they are scared of getting hit by a car. The "freedom" to cycle around has been eroded by a constant threat of injury or death.

    And car ownership is closely related to wealth. The poor have no choice but to cycle, walk or use public transport. What of their "freedom"?

    Cars are late to this game. People were walking, and then cycling, around our towns and cities long before motorists came along. In the 1950s there was 8x as much cycling as there is now.
    For the vast majority of people, having their own car was massive progress over bikes and horses. Owning a car was aspirational, people with cars are mobile and can go from any major city to another within a day, unbeholden to anyone except themselves.

    I’m all in favour of better roads for those who want to cycle, but most of the cycling campaigners start from the premise that less road should be given over to cars, and work backwards from there.
    Fewer drivers = more road.
    No, more road = more road.

    90% of transportation miles are taken by drivers and that is consistent in pretty much all countries across Europe. This includes cyclists and public transportation.

    You can't induce demand much beyond 90%. And even if cycling in this country were to double and all of those extra cycling miles were removed from driving miles, you'd be removing less than 1% of cars from the road. Which would be entirely negated by population growth being over 1% per annum.
    I've been meaning to ask you.
    Do you like cars?
    Guessing this is sarcasm?

    Of course I do, they're great. Convenient, practical, efficient and they work. They're the best and most efficient form of transportation that exists.

    I also like bikes, they're fun recreationally too.

    The thing is that bikes are not an alternative to cars, in the same way as chocolate cake is not an alternative to a balanced diet.

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.
    Not for 83% of us :)

    More importantly, about 1 in 5 households in Hillingdon (and Havering) manage without any car or van at all. Even in Rishi's Richmondshire, it's 1 in 8.

    So, no- cars are not required. They might be useful, but they're not required. "I want" isn't the same as "I need", as granny used to say.
    Which is bollocks, I lived in slough almost 40 years....in all that time I had precisely 2 jobs in slough, I worked in wantage,epsom,reading,farnborough apart from that. Public transport was only viable for reading. None of those places was cyclable to. Just because you live in an urban area does not mean you will find a job in that urban area
    Here are the figures;

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/choropleth/housing/number-of-cars-or-vans/number-of-cars-3a/no-cars-or-vans-in-household?lad=E06000039

    20 percent of households in Slough.
    Sorry what point are you trying to make here? 80% of slough needs a car?
    No. What I am saying is that Bart's claim,

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.

    is demonstrably untrue. Plenty of functioning adults manage their lives perfectly well without driving a car, ever. On the latest stats, about 1 in 4 adults in England don't have a driving licence.

    That's not the case for everyone, sure. I'm not arguing for no cars at all anywhere, and you'd have to get pretty fringe to get that view.

    What I do think is that cars can be excellent servants, but appalling masters. If we try to put sufficient road and parking space in urban areas, we cut them in pieces and often kill the things that make them good places to live. By making roads less safe and public transport less viable, we (and this includes me) make life demonstrably worse for the 1 in 4 adults who don't drive and the young people who struggle to be independently mobile.

    And the evidence is that, if you create safe networks for walking and cycling, properly away from motorised traffic, people do use them as a serious way of getting bits of their daily business done. Which is good for everyone.
    Plenty of people get about by being passengers in cars yes, or relying upon others who drive cars in order to service their needs instead.

    Very few in modern society have nothing to do with cars, whether it be via being a passenger in one (inc taxis), or getting their post delivered, or parcels delivered, or going to shops which have cars, vans and trucks delivering their supplies.

    Even if you don't drive, you almost certainly have people who are driving assisting you in the way you live on an daily basis. That's how modern society exists and it is all the better for it.

    The evidence is that if you have safe networks for walking and cycling then a miniscule percentage of daily miles/km travelled is done that way, which is absolutely fine, but cars remain the overwhelming majority of transportation.

    Even in tiny Netherlands, the most bike-friendly country in the world, bikes account for single-digit percentage of total km travelled while cars make up over 75%.

    If you want to ride a bike a short distance then good luck to you, but unless you want to go back to 18th century standards of living, we need cars in the real world.

    Er. 'Car' usually means 'private car'. Not delivery van, bus, minibus ... which is sort of the entire theme of all your posts as road warrior in backless gloves in his Rover 2000.
    Actually vans, buses, minibuses, etc are simply different types of cars. And if you order off Amazon or other delivery suppliers then a significant portion of those deliveries are made by someone else's private car anyway. Plus if we're talking about investment in roads, or closing roads, then absolutely all of those vehicles need roads every bit as much as private cars do.

    I've never driven a Rover, nor are my posts remotely road warrior unless you're an absolutely crazy anti-car fanatic - which this site seems to have a completely disproportionate amount of.

    I've been consistently pro opening new roads for improving cycling and other demands which is win/win.

    What I'm against is cutting capacity for over 90% of our transportation without any alternative. Build roads and you can add better cycling and walking capacity absolutely.
    Fact remains, private cars are hopelssly selfish and consume vast amounts of resources compared to communal vehicles of various sorts. Even an Amazon delivery car is dozens of times better than driving to the local bookshop or W H Smiths.
    Load of crap. Private cars consume minimal amounts of resources per mile travelled. They're wonderfully efficient.

    Gram for gram my bike is a less efficient use of resources than my car.
    Remarkable economic and engineering analysis. If it were true ...

    Bujt it's not, because you have the rest of us pay much of the cost.
    It is true. And you haven't paid a single penny towards my vehicle, quite the opposite, my taxes fund so much more than my driving.

    My car weighs approximately 1220 kg. It has done just under 100k miles since I bought it new. I should pass the 100k mark this year.

    So looking at the car weight per mile that is about 82 miles per kg.

    But most of the time I have passengers in the vehicle. 2, 3 and sometimes 4. So let's estimate 250k total passenger miles travelled. That'd mean 205 passenger miles per kg of car weight. And that's disregarding the shopping etc transported too.

    My bike weighs about 10kg and I won't have done more than double digit miles in it. And I've never carried any passengers on my bike.
    I've done ~2k miles on my 10kg bike and ~10k miles in my 2400kg car.

    What do we conclude from that? As with you figures, I'd suggest: "nothing".

    Also, why are you dividing miles by mass? If anything, I'd multiply them for some indication of impact (wear on roads for example, indication of energy expended).
    Would make more sense to *multiply* mass x distance. And note he's omitting the car's own weight in that equation, or rather indeed using it as a divider. Which is cheating.
    Its not cheating, it is a divisor. I said that gram for gram my car is more efficient and it is, you need to divide distance by mass to calculate the distance travelled per kg of the vehicle.
    You're forgetting physics. Energy consumed is a function of mass, as well as speed and acceleration (in complex ways, e.g. because of fruction).
    I'm not forgetting it, that's why a lot of engineering has gone into making vehicles efficient.

    Besides energy is not "resources" which was your original claim. Especially going forwards where cars are going to be charged via the wind, and in particular surplus wind generated overnight while the rest of our energy demands are low.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,208

    Leon said:

    STOP FUCKING MOANING, YOU COULD BE IN UKRAINE

    Fuck you! I'm stuck in Bradford!
    So is the whole of Ilkley...
    Plans for a blanket 20mph speed limit in Ilkley with loads of speed bumps to be installed. It has divided options.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,899

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    The biggest change Sunak needs is for inflation to keep falling. The less voters are worried about cost of living the less they will feel a need to change government, some tax cuts too once that is done would also help swing undecideds back to the Tories

    "inflation falls" does not mean "cheaper prices"; in the current context it means "prices that have already gone up a lot more than wages and which are still going up".
    Very good point. If inflation falls to 5% Sunak will say 'my promise has been delivered' while Joe Public is still seeing everything costing more than it did last year.
    There's a great deal of deliberate obfuscation of the first and second order derivatives of the price variablewith the price variable itself in Toryspeak at the moment. In fact there has been a great deal for the last year or so since inflation became even more of an issue than usual. But, ass you say, it risks being counterproductive.
    Similarly with the deliberate use of 'debt' when they (presumably*) mean deficit, although public deficit/debt is less in voters' faces than inflation.

    (*Because no way is debt going to reduce in the lifetime of this parliament.)
    Actually they do mean debt. The debt ratio specifically.

    Debt to GDP falling is the target.
    Was that ever clarified? In the actual speech he said:

    "...Third, we will make sure our national debt is falling so that we can secure the future of public services..."

    But let's assume you're right, it makes sense after all. He has no chance of achieving that promise before a GE, does he?
    Yes he says debt falling, not debt to GDP falling. There is no chance that debt will be falling, BTW. If he meant debt to GDP he should have said that. It's just more Tory dishonesty.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    "There was a time when immigration forms to the United States asked the would-be visitor whether he had come to assassinate the President. Someone I know wrote ‘Sole purpose of visit’ in reply, but the immigration officer, instead of taking this as a satire on the absurdity of the question, took it very seriously. More recently, visitors have been asked whether they have ever been involved in genocidal activities or intended to become so in the future, the desired answer to which question was not very difficult to guess. And six months after the attacks on the World Trade Center in New York on 11 September, 2001, I received an official form in the prison in England in which I worked as a doctor—a copy of which I wish now I had also kept—asking me whether I had ever been a terrorist or intended to become one in the future: and I was warned that if I did not reply to these questions, presumably with the right answers, I would be sacked. What struck me most forcefully about this idiocy was that it was not spontaneously generated, that there must have been persons paid from the public purse to devise such questions, persons who probably considered that they were very hard-working and even overworked"

    https://www.newenglishreview.org/articles/standards-and-judgements/

    An immigration attorney explained to me that the purpose of these questions is simply to allow the authorities to immediately deport people on the basis that they had lied on immigration forms, rather than going through the courts.

    A corollary would be the Albanian car wash guys in the UK: if they signed a doc saying they would not work, and are then found working, you can get rid of them pronto, rather than having to go through more tortuous procedures.
    If I commit terrorism in the USA and then they deport me on the basis I lied on the form I would count that as a positive outcome.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,364

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Selebian said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    .

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    @MattW is the acknowledged expert on cycling infrastructure. I’m sure his predictions that cycling can be expected to triple in coming years is right.

    I’m hopeful about Birmingham and Nottingham too.

    I remember when I posted that it was a shame that cities outside London lacked cyclehire schemes and I was denounced as a cappuccino supping metro elitist.

    A small, but very useful scheme - Brompton offer cycle hire

    https://bromptonhire.com/our-locations/

    A number are next to rail/tube stations.

    I'm seeing on the trains an increasing number of people who've obviously hired one (the colour scheme is quiet, but noticeable) for a day out - train out to somewhere in the country side, unfold and ride.

    For those who don't know them, Brompton folding bikes are allowed on all trains because they are so compact. They are, in addition, very rideable, compared to other small wheel bikes.
    Bromptons are very cool, as well as a British manufacturing success story.
    I have a single speed titanium one with flat bars because that's just how I roll.

    They are not particularly 'rideable' because of a very short mechanical trail distance of 27mm. A normal bicycle has 40-65mm and therefore much stronger castering action. I have ridden mine over 60km in one ride though.
    What's the verdict on cargo ebikes? I'm tempted by something like a Tern or the cheaper Radwagon. Where we live, it'd make sense for me, rather than use the Transporter for a 10 minute drive to town. It'd be a crime to use my hardtail with panniers.
    Terns are I think well-thought of and robust, if somewhat expensive at £3-4k+. ie about 12-18 months of running costs for a small 2nd car.

    You can find E-Cargo bikes from about £1500, or secondhand, and they hold their value well.

    There are also good e-cargo-trikes.

    Some reviews:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-electric-cargo-bikes
    Some reviews of budget ones:
    https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-e-cargo-bikes-under-3000-affordable-electric-bikes-to-do-the-job-of

    I bought my car for £3,000, and it can carry a family of five and all of their luggage for a fortnight away. Plus the dog.

    And the bike won’t go 80mph, do. 0-60 in six seconds, or make V8 noises. ULEZ compliant as well.
    (It’s a later model of this)
    [Picture of dog required for scale]
    Okay, nicked off the internet.
    (This is a later model of car)
    [Scale now obtained. Thank you, @Sandpit]
    As I always say, it's not a competition.

    What is your annual running cost, btw? *innocent face*
    Okay, I’ll bite.

    I’ve previously lived in places where work and home were 400m apart, and home was 100m from the station. Brilliant. No need for a car, take a taxi or rent one when required.

    Right now, I live 25km from work, and the journey is pretty much impossible by anything other than car. It’s 20m in the car, or nearly 2h by public transport (walk, bus, train, train, walk, boat, walk).

    The problem I have, is trying to fit one-size-fits-all solutions into a diverse population. People will change jobs, and transport methods that worked with old job no longer work with new job. Not just jobs either, people have regular appointments with schools, shops, social events, that can change over time.

    Having a car is a sunk cost; not just for the car, but for insurance, VED, servicing etc. Owning a house is an even bigger sunk cost; it’s often easier to accept an hour’s commute than to commit to spending five figures on moving house, even assuming that a similar house near new job can be purchased for similar money to the one you have already.

    Once you have a car the marginal cost of a single extra journey is tiny, compared to the cost of a bus or train journey for more than one person. If you’re on your own, the cost is about the same, but the difference in time and exposure to the weather is significantly different.

    The impression given by those wanting to increase cycling, is that it starts with a dislike of cars. Now, there’s silly drivers and silly cyclists out there, and the cyclists are in the more vulnerable position if there’s a collision between the two. I can understand that it makes sense to separate the traffic where possible, but most of the suggestions start with reducing the space available for cars, rather than first increasing the space for other transport methods and letting the change happen organically.

    Many people have no choice but to drive, they might have a complex schedule that involves getting the kids to school, going to work, running errands for their employer, picking up kids and going to activities etc, or they might just be like me, who’d rather spend 40m a day driving than 4h on public transport. I do occasionally take the public transport to work, if we went for beers afterwards and I took a taxi home.

    The personal motor car is possibly the greatest invention of the 20th century, in terms of the freedom it gives people to move around, to seek work, to better themselves, to spend more time with those they love.

    It comes across that there’s a concerted effort to regress on personal car ownership, for a wide range of different ideological positions. Whether it’s the cycling lobby, the bus lobby, the train lobby, the Uber lobby, the car-as-a-service lobby, or the environmental lobby, is almost irrelevant; the aim is to leave fewer people with the option to just jump in their own car and enjoy the freedom of the road.
    I agree with your entire post - just swap out "car" for "bicycle".

    The key reason that people don't cycle in the UK is that they are scared of getting hit by a car. The "freedom" to cycle around has been eroded by a constant threat of injury or death.

    And car ownership is closely related to wealth. The poor have no choice but to cycle, walk or use public transport. What of their "freedom"?

    Cars are late to this game. People were walking, and then cycling, around our towns and cities long before motorists came along. In the 1950s there was 8x as much cycling as there is now.
    For the vast majority of people, having their own car was massive progress over bikes and horses. Owning a car was aspirational, people with cars are mobile and can go from any major city to another within a day, unbeholden to anyone except themselves.

    I’m all in favour of better roads for those who want to cycle, but most of the cycling campaigners start from the premise that less road should be given over to cars, and work backwards from there.
    Fewer drivers = more road.
    No, more road = more road.

    90% of transportation miles are taken by drivers and that is consistent in pretty much all countries across Europe. This includes cyclists and public transportation.

    You can't induce demand much beyond 90%. And even if cycling in this country were to double and all of those extra cycling miles were removed from driving miles, you'd be removing less than 1% of cars from the road. Which would be entirely negated by population growth being over 1% per annum.
    I've been meaning to ask you.
    Do you like cars?
    Guessing this is sarcasm?

    Of course I do, they're great. Convenient, practical, efficient and they work. They're the best and most efficient form of transportation that exists.

    I also like bikes, they're fun recreationally too.

    The thing is that bikes are not an alternative to cars, in the same way as chocolate cake is not an alternative to a balanced diet.

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.
    Not for 83% of us :)

    More importantly, about 1 in 5 households in Hillingdon (and Havering) manage without any car or van at all. Even in Rishi's Richmondshire, it's 1 in 8.

    So, no- cars are not required. They might be useful, but they're not required. "I want" isn't the same as "I need", as granny used to say.
    Which is bollocks, I lived in slough almost 40 years....in all that time I had precisely 2 jobs in slough, I worked in wantage,epsom,reading,farnborough apart from that. Public transport was only viable for reading. None of those places was cyclable to. Just because you live in an urban area does not mean you will find a job in that urban area
    Here are the figures;

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/choropleth/housing/number-of-cars-or-vans/number-of-cars-3a/no-cars-or-vans-in-household?lad=E06000039

    20 percent of households in Slough.
    Sorry what point are you trying to make here? 80% of slough needs a car?
    No. What I am saying is that Bart's claim,

    I'll have chocolate cake because its nice, or ride a bike because its fun. But you absolutely need your balanced diet/car because they are required.

    is demonstrably untrue. Plenty of functioning adults manage their lives perfectly well without driving a car, ever. On the latest stats, about 1 in 4 adults in England don't have a driving licence.

    That's not the case for everyone, sure. I'm not arguing for no cars at all anywhere, and you'd have to get pretty fringe to get that view.

    What I do think is that cars can be excellent servants, but appalling masters. If we try to put sufficient road and parking space in urban areas, we cut them in pieces and often kill the things that make them good places to live. By making roads less safe and public transport less viable, we (and this includes me) make life demonstrably worse for the 1 in 4 adults who don't drive and the young people who struggle to be independently mobile.

    And the evidence is that, if you create safe networks for walking and cycling, properly away from motorised traffic, people do use them as a serious way of getting bits of their daily business done. Which is good for everyone.
    Plenty of people get about by being passengers in cars yes, or relying upon others who drive cars in order to service their needs instead.

    Very few in modern society have nothing to do with cars, whether it be via being a passenger in one (inc taxis), or getting their post delivered, or parcels delivered, or going to shops which have cars, vans and trucks delivering their supplies.

    Even if you don't drive, you almost certainly have people who are driving assisting you in the way you live on an daily basis. That's how modern society exists and it is all the better for it.

    The evidence is that if you have safe networks for walking and cycling then a miniscule percentage of daily miles/km travelled is done that way, which is absolutely fine, but cars remain the overwhelming majority of transportation.

    Even in tiny Netherlands, the most bike-friendly country in the world, bikes account for single-digit percentage of total km travelled while cars make up over 75%.

    If you want to ride a bike a short distance then good luck to you, but unless you want to go back to 18th century standards of living, we need cars in the real world.

    Er. 'Car' usually means 'private car'. Not delivery van, bus, minibus ... which is sort of the entire theme of all your posts as road warrior in backless gloves in his Rover 2000.
    Actually vans, buses, minibuses, etc are simply different types of cars. And if you order off Amazon or other delivery suppliers then a significant portion of those deliveries are made by someone else's private car anyway. Plus if we're talking about investment in roads, or closing roads, then absolutely all of those vehicles need roads every bit as much as private cars do.

    I've never driven a Rover, nor are my posts remotely road warrior unless you're an absolutely crazy anti-car fanatic - which this site seems to have a completely disproportionate amount of.

    I've been consistently pro opening new roads for improving cycling and other demands which is win/win.

    What I'm against is cutting capacity for over 90% of our transportation without any alternative. Build roads and you can add better cycling and walking capacity absolutely.
    Fact remains, private cars are hopelssly selfish and consume vast amounts of resources compared to communal vehicles of various sorts. Even an Amazon delivery car is dozens of times better than driving to the local bookshop or W H Smiths.
    Load of crap. Private cars consume minimal amounts of resources per mile travelled. They're wonderfully efficient.

    Gram for gram my bike is a less efficient use of resources than my car.
    Remarkable economic and engineering analysis. If it were true ...

    Bujt it's not, because you have the rest of us pay much of the cost.
    It is true. And you haven't paid a single penny towards my vehicle, quite the opposite, my taxes fund so much more than my driving.

    My car weighs approximately 1220 kg. It has done just under 100k miles since I bought it new. I should pass the 100k mark this year.

    So looking at the car weight per mile that is about 82 miles per kg.

    But most of the time I have passengers in the vehicle. 2, 3 and sometimes 4. So let's estimate 250k total passenger miles travelled. That'd mean 205 passenger miles per kg of car weight. And that's disregarding the shopping etc transported too.

    My bike weighs about 10kg and I won't have done more than double digit miles in it. And I've never carried any passengers on my bike.
    I've done ~2k miles on my 10kg bike and ~10k miles in my 2400kg car.

    What do we conclude from that? As with you figures, I'd suggest: "nothing".

    Also, why are you dividing miles by mass? If anything, I'd multiply them for some indication of impact (wear on roads for example, indication of energy expended).
    Would make more sense to *multiply* mass x distance. And note he's omitting the car's own weight in that equation, or rather indeed using it as a divider. Which is cheating.
    Its not cheating, it is a divisor. I said that gram for gram my car is more efficient and it is, you need to divide distance by mass to calculate the distance travelled per kg of the vehicle.
    You're forgetting physics. Energy consumed is a function of mass, as well as speed and acceleration (in complex ways, e.g. because of fruction).
    I'm not forgetting it, that's why a lot of engineering has gone into making vehicles efficient.

    Besides energy is not "resources" which was your original claim. Especially going forwards where cars are going to be charged via the wind, and in particular surplus wind generated overnight while the rest of our energy demands are low.
    You're not forgetting it - you're deliberately ignoring it. An efficient car is still vastly inefficient in terms of people transported x distance.

    And the road space issue still remains.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    edited August 2023

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    The biggest change Sunak needs is for inflation to keep falling. The less voters are worried about cost of living the less they will feel a need to change government, some tax cuts too once that is done would also help swing undecideds back to the Tories

    "inflation falls" does not mean "cheaper prices"; in the current context it means "prices that have already gone up a lot more than wages and which are still going up".
    Very good point. If inflation falls to 5% Sunak will say 'my promise has been delivered' while Joe Public is still seeing everything costing more than it did last year.
    There's a great deal of deliberate obfuscation of the first and second order derivatives of the price variablewith the price variable itself in Toryspeak at the moment. In fact there has been a great deal for the last year or so since inflation became even more of an issue than usual. But, ass you say, it risks being counterproductive.
    Similarly with the deliberate use of 'debt' when they (presumably*) mean deficit, although public deficit/debt is less in voters' faces than inflation.

    (*Because no way is debt going to reduce in the lifetime of this parliament.)
    Actually they do mean debt. The debt ratio specifically.

    Debt to GDP falling is the target.
    Was that ever clarified? In the actual speech he said:

    "...Third, we will make sure our national debt is falling so that we can secure the future of public services..."

    But let's assume you're right, it makes sense after all. He has no chance of achieving that promise before a GE, does he?
    Yes he says debt falling, not debt to GDP falling. There is no chance that debt will be falling, BTW. If he meant debt to GDP he should have said that. It's just more Tory dishonesty.
    Indeed, I agree with you. He could easily have said:

    'Third, we will make sure our national debt is falling as a proportion of GDP so that we can secure the future of public services.'

    He still would have failed though.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,679
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The biggest change Sunak needs is for inflation to keep falling. The less voters are worried about cost of living the less they will feel a need to change government, some tax cuts too once that is done would also help swing undecideds back to the Tories

    I don't think so. Major had more or less got the economy back on track by 1997 but the voters had already decided and thus the Tories were screwed. Same this time.

    For nothing now can ever come to any good with this Conservative administration.
    Major was facing Blair who is both more charismatic than Starmer and even more centrist. Major also had the legacy of Black Wednesday.

    1992 was 18 years into Tory government too, 2024 will be only 14 years into Tory government ie closer to the 13 years of 1992 when Major beat Kinnock against the odds when most polls had Labour ahead
    Blair may have been more charismatic than Starmer, but Major was miles more charismatic than Sunak.

    Major on his soapbox was quite formidable. That's how he won 1992. Sunak has none of that.
    Against Kinnock and Sunak comes across as more competent and in charge of his party than Major 1997 did
    Con maj on at 17/2. Tempted?
    No but I think it will be closer than expected, remember at this stage in 2009 polls showed Cameron was heading for a landslide over Brown
    But it's expected to be close. So you think it will be very close.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,140
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    What saves Sunak is an Event, dear boy.

    I don't know what sort of Event, but it would have to be a jolly big one. And probably not the one referenced in the Mitchell and Webb "Remain Indoors" sketches.

    But if Rishi goes into the election having to persuade people, it's just not going to work, unless he is using this holiday to have a Complete Personality Transplant operation.

    The 'event' would have to be something big and negative for Labour. Which I don't see because Starmer owns the party now and is taking no risks whatsoever. Absolutely nothing gets out (policy or messaging) that might upset the sort of voters he needs to win and hence is targeting (being red wall leavers and apolitical floaters).
    Its not going to happen as Starmer isn't completely crazy, but if Labour adopted the anti-car attitude shown by many people here in recent days then that could turn every marginal constituency against Labour.

    The election is decided by drivers. Starmer isn't stupid enough to be anti-driver.
    'Driver' is not most people's primary identity though. You are unusual in this respect.
    I am one of the more pro-Green voters on here, but think the current Tory approach to net zero is laudable but wrong. The emphasis is far too much on banning things (ICE cars, Gas boilers) and not enough on positive encouragement to get more green.

    Government building more charging infrastructure, councils giving free parking for EVs, expanding rather than shrinking bus networks etc. So much better to use carrot than stick.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,955

    Leon said:

    STOP FUCKING MOANING, YOU COULD BE IN UKRAINE

    Fuck you! I'm stuck in Bradford!
    So is the whole of Ilkley...
    Plans for a blanket 20mph speed limit in Ilkley with loads of speed bumps to be installed. It has divided options.
    Better than divided children.
  • Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    The biggest change Sunak needs is for inflation to keep falling. The less voters are worried about cost of living the less they will feel a need to change government, some tax cuts too once that is done would also help swing undecideds back to the Tories

    "inflation falls" does not mean "cheaper prices"; in the current context it means "prices that have already gone up a lot more than wages and which are still going up".
    Very good point. If inflation falls to 5% Sunak will say 'my promise has been delivered' while Joe Public is still seeing everything costing more than it did last year.
    There's a great deal of deliberate obfuscation of the first and second order derivatives of the price variablewith the price variable itself in Toryspeak at the moment. In fact there has been a great deal for the last year or so since inflation became even more of an issue than usual. But, ass you say, it risks being counterproductive.
    Similarly with the deliberate use of 'debt' when they (presumably*) mean deficit, although public deficit/debt is less in voters' faces than inflation.

    (*Because no way is debt going to reduce in the lifetime of this parliament.)
    Actually they do mean debt. The debt ratio specifically.

    Debt to GDP falling is the target.
    Was that ever clarified? In the actual speech he said:

    "...Third, we will make sure our national debt is falling so that we can secure the future of public services..."

    But let's assume you're right, it makes sense after all. He has no chance of achieving that promise before a GE, does he?
    Yes he says debt falling, not debt to GDP falling. There is no chance that debt will be falling, BTW. If he meant debt to GDP he should have said that. It's just more Tory dishonesty.
    I completely dislike Sunak, find him dishonest, have quit the Tories, and currently plan to vote either Labour or Lib Dem at the next election . . . but this is not dishonesty.

    Debt to GDP is the entirely normal and only rational measure of public sector debt. There's no need to say "to GDP" since it goes without saying.

    £3 tn debt to £1 tn GDP is truly awful
    £3 tn debt to £3 tn GDP is very bad
    £3 tn debt to £30 tn GDP would be unprecedentedly low debt.

    Debt alone means nothing without looking at GDP, so anyone rational always looks at debt to GDP on national levels.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,364
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    STOP FUCKING MOANING, YOU COULD BE IN UKRAINE

    Fuck you! I'm stuck in Bradford!
    So is the whole of Ilkley...
    Plans for a blanket 20mph speed limit in Ilkley with loads of speed bumps to be installed. It has divided options.
    Better than divided children.
    Externalities, innit.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,140

    HYUFD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    viewcode said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    My Rutherglen & Hamilton West post on whether there is anything unusual to be gleaned from the Local Elections.

    So my normal approach would be to base on the LE22 round and then see if there is any forward facing data since then

    Rutherglen & Hamilton West LE22 gave:
    SNP 39.2 (-5.0 on GE19)
    Lab 34.1 (-0.4)
    Con 11.0 (-4.0)
    LD 11.0 (+5.8)
    Others (mainly Green) 4.6 (+3.4)

    To my eyes a lot of the movement here is that of an STV election vs an FPTP election, a lot of that lost SNP vote is hidden in Others and likely to return as at this point.

    So, LE22 is not too far away from GE19.

    In terms of actual election swings since then, there have been 5 local by-elections in Scotland this year, 3 with Labour as the challengers. Swings away from the SNP on the first vote have been steady and consistent:

    In Stirling SNP to Con challenger swing was 5.5%
    In Edinburgh SNP to LD swing was 6%
    In Aberdeen SNP to Lab was 9%
    In the Lanarkshires (though neither in this constituency) SNP to Lab were 11 and 13.5% respectively.

    I don't know if it's the somewhat evened out political environment, large multi member wards, full slates of candidates, STV or what, but Scottish local elections and by elections, outside the Independent lands at least, show little of the madness that is often on show in England. Whenever I look things seem smooth, indicative and fairly well aligned with the polls.

    If a 10ish% swing to Labour does not materialize, I think that will reflect back something hitherto unknown about the Scottish attitudes to GE24 and would be far more telling than Uxbridge ever was. Labour need the boring result that every indicator suggests will happen. The chance of that is non-zero, this will be the first politician sent to London from Scotland since Airdrie and Shotts returned Anum Qaisar in sunnier SNP days.



    Curse of the long post / new thread
    Please don't think me stupid, but the salient point did rather get lost in the detail. Do you think Labour will win Rutherglen and Hamilton or not?
    Fair cop. That non-zero sentence didn't quite do the job.

    The boring result seems the most likely (broadly Labour winning by a similar or slightly smaller % margin than the current SNP margin), but there is a non-zero chance of some Scottish reaction against London Labour, and the earlier quoted 10/1 on the SNP seems modest value to me.
    I expect the vote in Rutherglen will be largely anti Yousaf and anti SNP
    To put the cat among the pigeons, Alba, and specifically Salmond, should contest the by election.
    Perhaps the only politician in Scotland less popular than Sturgeon. Humiliation would await.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,856
    Things that could shift polls toward Sunak:
    -Raise the VAT threshold on small businesses to £200,000
    -Remove VAT on domestic fuel
    These are both exceedingly unlikely sadly, because they can't be done legally in Northern Ireland.
    -Approve tidal energy in Wales and get his name and face all over it in-front of some diggers 'new green power era for Wales' etc.
    -Delay ban on new petrols and diesels to the new EU date of 2035
    -Start flying lots of lots of boat people to Rwanda
    -Ditch HS2 once and for all with a workable legacy plan that makes the whole thing done so far not quite such a collossal waste of time and money.
    -A proper housing bill, sorting out actual issues like legacy EU laws on nutrient neutrality: https://www.endsreport.com/article/1754796/100000-homes-limbo-due-nutrient-neutrality-advice-housebuilders-claim, and land-banking by big developers, to actually get houses built in serious numbers - not just Michael Gove farting around re-announcing something about developing in urban areas. Sunak pictured in a hard-hat in a digger etc.

    All these things would shift the polls. There are not a good programme for Government, because good Government involves a massive amount of things that would not shift the polls in the short term, but these would.

    And it goes without saying that a new leader would sell these new policies a lot better than Sunak.
This discussion has been closed.