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Why the best value Mayoral bets are now on the Tories – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,047
edited July 2023 in General
imageWhy the best value Mayoral bets are now on the Tories – politicalbetting.com

In all the discussions over next year’s London Mayoral election hardly anybody is noting that things are very different because of changes Johnson made to the mayoral voting system when he was PM.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,271
    Worth putting a bob on Dick Wittington's cat?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,750
    The new CEO of Twitter appears to be an even bigger bullshitter than Musk (and without any compensating achievements).

    There’s absolutely no limit to this transformation. X will be the platform that can deliver, well….everything. @elonmusk and I are looking forward to working with our teams and every single one of our partners to bring X to the world.
    https://twitter.com/lindayacc/status/1683214311957594113
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,271
    Nigelb said:

    The new CEO of Twitter appears to be an even bigger bullshitter than Musk (and without any compensating achievements).

    There’s absolutely no limit to this transformation. X will be the platform that can deliver, well….everything. @elonmusk and I are looking forward to working with our teams and every single one of our partners to bring X to the world.
    https://twitter.com/lindayacc/status/1683214311957594113

    Presumably her golden (space) X parachute is already folded and packed . . . hopefully (for her) NOT by Musk.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,766
    An interesting argument. But I don't see the Conservatives winning unless:two things happen:

    - they pick a popular celebrity candidate, of the kind that has such huge advantage in direct elections like this; and
    - they recover significantly in national politics.

    Boris won narrowly in 2008 when he had good name recognition and Labour were hugely unpopular nationally and in 2012, he was the incumbent, which gives a big advantage in being known.

    So good luck to OGH but I'm not sure I'd take 7/1 for Susan Who?
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,766
    Also, looking at the figures from Boris's two victories, the second round shares of the two candidates aren't actually that different from the first round shares once the minor candidates are eliminated. In 2012, Boris' margin was 3.7% in the first round and 3.0% in the second round, for instance, so I'm not sure I'd agree that, in 2008 or 2012 at least, the Labour candidate was helped "enormously" by second preference votes.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,314
    Fishing said:

    An interesting argument. But I don't see the Conservatives winning unless:two things happen:

    - they pick a popular celebrity candidate, of the kind that has such huge advantage in direct elections like this; and
    - they recover significantly in national politics.

    Boris won narrowly in 2008 when he had good name recognition and Labour were hugely unpopular nationally and in 2012, he was the incumbent, which gives a big advantage in being known.

    So good luck to OGH but I'm not sure I'd take 7/1 for Susan Who?

    Indeed so. They’ve done well in the West Midlands with Andy Street, and should have found someone of similar stature to stand in London. It’s not as if the capital is short of successful and well-known people.

    Instead, they tried to stitch it up for some ex-Cameron SpAd, who got a #MeToo during the campaign, and they were left with Susan Who? At least, after the events of last week, she has one good issue on which to campaign, in the outer boroughs anyway.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,357
    It feels like we've only just had the previous mayoral election, although of course it was postponed for a year.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,420
    Fishing said:

    An interesting argument. But I don't see the Conservatives winning unless:two things happen:

    - they pick a popular celebrity candidate, of the kind that has such huge advantage in direct elections like this; and
    - they recover significantly in national politics.

    Boris won narrowly in 2008 when he had good name recognition and Labour were hugely unpopular nationally and in 2012, he was the incumbent, which gives a big advantage in being known.

    So good luck to OGH but I'm not sure I'd take 7/1 for Susan Who?

    Agreed. The other thing would be needing a popular celebrity candidate who isn’t labelable as a party hack.

    None of the Mayors of London so far have primarily been identified by their party affiliation, in the public eye. Khan is the closest to a standard party candidate, but most people don’t regard him as Mr Labour.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,648
    edited July 2023
    Good news from Spain that Vox fell sharply backwards. They ran a campaign offering all kinds of reactionary policies, literally implored people to vote for them on their posters, and lost ground rapidly.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,750

    Nigelb said:

    The new CEO of Twitter appears to be an even bigger bullshitter than Musk (and without any compensating achievements).

    There’s absolutely no limit to this transformation. X will be the platform that can deliver, well….everything. @elonmusk and I are looking forward to working with our teams and every single one of our partners to bring X to the world.
    https://twitter.com/lindayacc/status/1683214311957594113

    Presumably her golden (space) X parachute is already folded and packed . . . hopefully (for her) NOT by Musk.
    Her background is entirely in advertising.
    While that would make sense if Musk were attempting to repair the damage he's done to Twitter (difficult, since he doesn't accept that), it's not immediately obvious to me what possible use she could be to a venture that is apparently trying to turn itself into a competitor for some of the biggest and best funded tech companies in the world - while loss making, and with a small fraction of their resources.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,848
    Following yesterday’s conversation about the debasement of language I wanted to share this gem from the daily mail

    As proof of the emergency nature of the crisis they noted that “holidaymakers [at the airport] have been photographed anxiously studying the departure board”…

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,750
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,750
    edited July 2023
    The new space race is on.
    With China this time, Russia's participation in anything but destruction being over.

    China sets out preliminary crewed lunar landing plan
    https://spacenews.com/china-sets-out-preliminary-crewed-lunar-landing-plan/
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,750

    Following yesterday’s conversation about the debasement of language I wanted to share this gem from the daily mail

    As proof of the emergency nature of the crisis they noted that “holidaymakers [at the airport] have been photographed anxiously studying the departure board”…

    That's little to do with language - just debased journalism where you'd expect to find it.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,077
    edited July 2023
    No pasarán

    And good morning

    xx
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,571
    edited July 2023

    Fishing said:

    An interesting argument. But I don't see the Conservatives winning unless:two things happen:

    - they pick a popular celebrity candidate, of the kind that has such huge advantage in direct elections like this; and
    - they recover significantly in national politics.

    Boris won narrowly in 2008 when he had good name recognition and Labour were hugely unpopular nationally and in 2012, he was the incumbent, which gives a big advantage in being known.

    So good luck to OGH but I'm not sure I'd take 7/1 for Susan Who?

    Agreed. The other thing would be needing a popular celebrity candidate who isn’t labelable as a party hack.

    None of the Mayors of London so far have primarily been identified by their party affiliation, in the public eye. Khan is the closest to a standard party candidate, but most people don’t regard him as Mr Labour.
    Khan is a figure of ridicule. ULEZ has given him a bloody nose because he tried to force it through. It won't be forgotten however much Labour apologise.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,571
    edited July 2023
    Deleted
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,848
    Nigelb said:

    Following yesterday’s conversation about the debasement of language I wanted to share this gem from the daily mail

    As proof of the emergency nature of the crisis they noted that “holidaymakers [at the airport] have been photographed anxiously studying the departure board”…

    That's little to do with language - just debased journalism where you'd expect to find it.
    Misuse of the word “crisis” isn’t limited to the Mail. Although their journalism is poor, I’ll give you that
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,139

    Good news from Spain that Vox fell sharply backwards. They ran a campaign offering all kinds of reactionary policies, literally implored people to vote for them on their posters, and lost ground rapidly.

    The extreme left and nationalist parties also fell back yet ironically it is the right wing JUNTS in Catalonia who now can decide who runs Spain. It's a big hot mess especially as the Senate now has a clear absolute majority for the centre right. I think that the Senate has control over constitutional matters .
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,084

    Fishing said:

    An interesting argument. But I don't see the Conservatives winning unless:two things happen:

    - they pick a popular celebrity candidate, of the kind that has such huge advantage in direct elections like this; and
    - they recover significantly in national politics.

    Boris won narrowly in 2008 when he had good name recognition and Labour were hugely unpopular nationally and in 2012, he was the incumbent, which gives a big advantage in being known.

    So good luck to OGH but I'm not sure I'd take 7/1 for Susan Who?

    Agreed. The other thing would be needing a popular celebrity candidate who isn’t labelable as a party hack.

    None of the Mayors of London so far have primarily been identified by their party affiliation, in the public eye. Khan is the closest to a standard party candidate, but most people don’t regard him as Mr Labour.
    Khan is a figure of ridicule. ULEZ has given him a bloody nose because he tried to force it through. It won't be forgotten however much Labour apologise.
    Khan has forced Ulez through. Despite what you might have read on a leaflet, electing a Tory in Uxbridge changes nothing.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,139
    The word 'crisis ' has become a meaningless joke word.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,084
    7/1 is a good bet, although I'd prefer to bet on party rather than candidate this far out, in case some scandal or other forces a late withdrawal. In any case, it is moot as OGH has moved the market and 5/1 is the best offer I can see, which is less tempting.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,196
    It’s not difficult for voters in London to identify the anti-Conservative candidate with the best chance of winning. Labour have usually been 30%+ ahead of the LibDem or Green in third place. The smaller parties have been squeezed even though we had an ordinal voting system. They’ll stay squeezed under FPTP.

    The only thing that could threaten Labour is a serious independent candidacy. Which means (J) Corbyn. Even if he does stand, I’d think Khan the favourite.
  • Nigelb said:

    Following yesterday’s conversation about the debasement of language I wanted to share this gem from the daily mail

    As proof of the emergency nature of the crisis they noted that “holidaymakers [at the airport] have been photographed anxiously studying the departure board”…

    That's little to do with language - just debased journalism where you'd expect to find it.
    Misuse of the word “crisis” isn’t limited to the Mail. Although their journalism is poor, I’ll give you that
    At least nobody's calling it genocide.. oh

    @JustStop_Oil
    The heatwave in Spain has already taken lives. Our government is fuelling climate-induced genocide and we must take action now.

    https://twitter.com/JustStop_Oil/status/1679823098650980353
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,358
    An SNP activist is canvassing support to challenge Humza Yousaf for the leadership in the latest sign that discipline is disintegrating within the party.

    Chris Hanlon has filled out the paperwork to mount a coup against the first minister and is soliciting nominations online.

    On Sunday he tweeted that he would give ordinary members more power to decide policy and break from a top-down style of leadership.

    If Hanlon, secretary of the West Fife and Coastal Villages branch, receives 100 nominations, he would force the second leadership contest in the SNP in six months, following the bitter race to replace Nicola Sturgeon when she resigned in February.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-activist-plots-leadership-bid-as-discipline-breaks-down-xhj2qglgr
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,077
    edited July 2023
    This is a very good tip by @MikeSmithson by the way.

    Sadiq has made a huge error with ulez. However, I suspect it will blow over and that he will be re-elected.

    It ought to serve as a warning to Labour. It's during their third term in office that they will combine arrogance with fatigue.

    History repeats itself. Has to. No one listens.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,077
    Scott_xP said:

    An SNP activist is canvassing support to challenge Humza Yousaf for the leadership in the latest sign that discipline is disintegrating within the party.

    Chris Hanlon has filled out the paperwork to mount a coup against the first minister and is soliciting nominations online.

    On Sunday he tweeted that he would give ordinary members more power to decide policy and break from a top-down style of leadership.

    If Hanlon, secretary of the West Fife and Coastal Villages branch, receives 100 nominations, he would force the second leadership contest in the SNP in six months, following the bitter race to replace Nicola Sturgeon when she resigned in February.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-activist-plots-leadership-bid-as-discipline-breaks-down-xhj2qglgr

    I reckon Labour are going to win back a massive swathe of Scottish seats at Westminster. Factor this into your betting folks.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,042
    felix said:

    The word 'crisis ' has become a meaningless joke word.

    Should only be used to mean "turning point in a disease" like in the good old days.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,077

    Fishing said:

    An interesting argument. But I don't see the Conservatives winning unless:two things happen:

    - they pick a popular celebrity candidate, of the kind that has such huge advantage in direct elections like this; and
    - they recover significantly in national politics.

    Boris won narrowly in 2008 when he had good name recognition and Labour were hugely unpopular nationally and in 2012, he was the incumbent, which gives a big advantage in being known.

    So good luck to OGH but I'm not sure I'd take 7/1 for Susan Who?

    Agreed. The other thing would be needing a popular celebrity candidate who isn’t labelable as a party hack.

    None of the Mayors of London so far have primarily been identified by their party affiliation, in the public eye. Khan is the closest to a standard party candidate, but most people don’t regard him as Mr Labour.
    Khan is a figure of ridicule. ULEZ has given him a bloody nose because he tried to force it through. It won't be forgotten however much Labour apologise.
    Well I suspect it WILL be forgotten.

    It's a bit of a storm in a teacup to be absolutely frank, affecting relatively few people who probably needed to get those cars replaced anyway. My brother's car, for instance, was nearly 20 years old.

    It will blow over.

    But it's a warning to Labour for sure.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,420
    Nigelb said:

    The new space race is on.
    With China this time, Russia's participation in anything but destruction being over.

    China sets out preliminary crewed lunar landing plan
    https://spacenews.com/china-sets-out-preliminary-crewed-lunar-landing-plan/

    They do need to get the funding from the Central Committee. Which is split on the issue. They are worried that even if they splash out, they might come second to the Americans.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,139
    kamski said:

    felix said:

    The word 'crisis ' has become a meaningless joke word.

    Should only be used to mean "turning point in a disease" like in the good old days.
    Indeed much beloved of the c18/19 novels!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,327
    The problem for the Tories, and indeed this bet, is that the new Labour government will not have time to become seriously unpopular before the vote takes place. Indeed, it is all too likely that they won't even have taken office yet. Labour may become vulnerable again when their government has pissed everyone off, just as they were when Boris stood. Right now even losing 40% of their vote to Corbyn (and they won't) would not be enough for the Tories to get anywhere near.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,420

    Fishing said:

    An interesting argument. But I don't see the Conservatives winning unless:two things happen:

    - they pick a popular celebrity candidate, of the kind that has such huge advantage in direct elections like this; and
    - they recover significantly in national politics.

    Boris won narrowly in 2008 when he had good name recognition and Labour were hugely unpopular nationally and in 2012, he was the incumbent, which gives a big advantage in being known.

    So good luck to OGH but I'm not sure I'd take 7/1 for Susan Who?

    Agreed. The other thing would be needing a popular celebrity candidate who isn’t labelable as a party hack.

    None of the Mayors of London so far have primarily been identified by their party affiliation, in the public eye. Khan is the closest to a standard party candidate, but most people don’t regard him as Mr Labour.
    Khan is a figure of ridicule. ULEZ has given him a bloody nose because he tried to force it through. It won't be forgotten however much Labour apologise.
    No. ULEZ policy is good. The implementation sucks, a bit.

    Turing this into culture wars bullshit is so Donald Fucking Trump.

    1) London needs cleaner air
    2) Historically, the best way to achieve this is incrementally improving standards. As proven many times in many places
    3) The “ULEZ policy”that was implemented was just one of a number of possible policies.
    4) Not being impressed with 3) doesn’t mean opposing 1 & 2.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,541
    Sandpit said:

    Fishing said:

    An interesting argument. But I don't see the Conservatives winning unless:two things happen:

    - they pick a popular celebrity candidate, of the kind that has such huge advantage in direct elections like this; and
    - they recover significantly in national politics.

    Boris won narrowly in 2008 when he had good name recognition and Labour were hugely unpopular nationally and in 2012, he was the incumbent, which gives a big advantage in being known.

    So good luck to OGH but I'm not sure I'd take 7/1 for Susan Who?

    Indeed so. They’ve done well in the West Midlands with Andy Street, and should have found someone of similar stature to stand in London. It’s not as if the capital is short of successful and well-known people.

    Instead, they tried to stitch it up for some ex-Cameron SpAd, who got a #MeToo during the campaign, and they were left with Susan Who? At least, after the events of last week, she has one good issue on which to campaign, in the outer boroughs anyway.
    The catch is finding someone successful, well-known and attractive to Londoners who is willing to identify as a Conservative. It's not 2017 any more, and Greater Birmingham isn't Greater London.

    The Conservatives took a deliberate turn to become the party of retired homeowners. In some ways that makes sense, but it has consequences.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,003
    Scott_xP said:

    An SNP activist is canvassing support to challenge Humza Yousaf for the leadership in the latest sign that discipline is disintegrating within the party.

    Chris Hanlon has filled out the paperwork to mount a coup against the first minister and is soliciting nominations online.

    On Sunday he tweeted that he would give ordinary members more power to decide policy and break from a top-down style of leadership.

    If Hanlon, secretary of the West Fife and Coastal Villages branch, receives 100 nominations, he would force the second leadership contest in the SNP in six months, following the bitter race to replace Nicola Sturgeon when she resigned in February.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-activist-plots-leadership-bid-as-discipline-breaks-down-xhj2qglgr

    Useless putting a link to a paywall
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,314

    Nigelb said:

    The new space race is on.
    With China this time, Russia's participation in anything but destruction being over.

    China sets out preliminary crewed lunar landing plan
    https://spacenews.com/china-sets-out-preliminary-crewed-lunar-landing-plan/

    They do need to get the funding from the Central Committee. Which is split on the issue. They are worried that even if they splash out, they might come second to the Americans.
    They’re starting from miles behind. SLS dates from as long ago as 2010 under Obama, with the moon landing missions signed off by Trump in 2017.

    Yes, the Chinese will have less bureaucracy to navigate once the decision is made, not constantly going back to the politicians for more money, to be spent in 100 specific towns, with fewer suppliers and partner agencies to deal with along the way (There’s 27 countries involved in Artemis), but going to the Moon is at least an order of magnitude more complicated than going to LEO.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis_program
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,627
    malcolmg said:

    Scott_xP said:

    An SNP activist is canvassing support to challenge Humza Yousaf for the leadership in the latest sign that discipline is disintegrating within the party.

    Chris Hanlon has filled out the paperwork to mount a coup against the first minister and is soliciting nominations online.

    On Sunday he tweeted that he would give ordinary members more power to decide policy and break from a top-down style of leadership.

    If Hanlon, secretary of the West Fife and Coastal Villages branch, receives 100 nominations, he would force the second leadership contest in the SNP in six months, following the bitter race to replace Nicola Sturgeon when she resigned in February.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-activist-plots-leadership-bid-as-discipline-breaks-down-xhj2qglgr

    Useless putting a link to a paywall
    I don’t think it’s fair to blame him for the Times paywall.

    Oh sorry, was that a verb not your nickname for Yousaf?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,420
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    The new space race is on.
    With China this time, Russia's participation in anything but destruction being over.

    China sets out preliminary crewed lunar landing plan
    https://spacenews.com/china-sets-out-preliminary-crewed-lunar-landing-plan/

    They do need to get the funding from the Central Committee. Which is split on the issue. They are worried that even if they splash out, they might come second to the Americans.
    They’re starting from miles behind. SLS dates from as long ago as 2010 under Obama, with the moon landing missions signed off by Trump in 2017.

    Yes, the Chinese will have less bureaucracy to navigate once the decision is made, not constantly going back to the politicians for more money, to be spent in 100 specific towns, with fewer suppliers and partner agencies to deal with along the way (There’s 27 countries involved in Artemis), but going to the Moon is at least an order of magnitude more complicated than going to LEO.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis_program
    SLS has some handicaps - the production and launch rate tops out at 1 per year. And that depends on Boeing, literally, not dropping bits.

    And they need to get the updated version up and running. The one they launched isn’t the version they need.

    And the new launch tower that costs more than a rocket development project, by itself…
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,750
    kamski said:

    felix said:

    The word 'crisis ' has become a meaningless joke word.

    Should only be used to mean "turning point in a disease" like in the good old days.
    I don't think that's quite what the nothing to see here crew have in mind.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,042
    felix said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    The word 'crisis ' has become a meaningless joke word.

    Should only be used to mean "turning point in a disease" like in the good old days.
    Indeed much beloved of the c18/19 novels!
    Yes. But the really big news is that a retired footballer has a far-right tattoo (not sure if it is a crisis):

    https://www1.wdr.de/nachrichten/mesut-oezil-graue-woelfe-tattoo-102.html
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,503
    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_xP said:

    An SNP activist is canvassing support to challenge Humza Yousaf for the leadership in the latest sign that discipline is disintegrating within the party.

    Chris Hanlon has filled out the paperwork to mount a coup against the first minister and is soliciting nominations online.

    On Sunday he tweeted that he would give ordinary members more power to decide policy and break from a top-down style of leadership.

    If Hanlon, secretary of the West Fife and Coastal Villages branch, receives 100 nominations, he would force the second leadership contest in the SNP in six months, following the bitter race to replace Nicola Sturgeon when she resigned in February.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-activist-plots-leadership-bid-as-discipline-breaks-down-xhj2qglgr

    Useless putting a link to a paywall
    I don’t think it’s fair to blame him for the Times paywall.

    Oh sorry, was that a verb not your nickname for Yousaf?
    Whatever it was, it wasn’t a verb.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,016
    Good morning

    I cannot see Susan Hall winning the London mayoral contest unless something entirely unexpected happens to the labour vote

    I think Scotland's SNP/Greens are heading for considerable unpopularity especially if the Greens policy of banning gas boilers comes into force in 2025

    Apparently it will be a requirement to sell a home for it to comply with energy rating c but they are to change the formulae to ensure it cannot be achieved with a gas boiler.

    The result will see all homes to either install a heat pump or electric heating to be saleable at a cost of 33 billion with approx 1.8 billion from the Scottish government

    This, if approved, would be their poll tax and when added to their proposition to vastly increases council tax and higher rates of tax anyway compared to the rest of the UK, will the last person to leave please switch off the lights

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/23670366.gas-boilers-set-penalised-energy-efficiency-overhaul/
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,750

    Nigelb said:

    The new space race is on.
    With China this time, Russia's participation in anything but destruction being over.

    China sets out preliminary crewed lunar landing plan
    https://spacenews.com/china-sets-out-preliminary-crewed-lunar-landing-plan/

    They do need to get the funding from the Central Committee. Which is split on the issue. They are worried that even if they splash out, they might come second to the Americans.
    I suspect the push to stake claims to lunar territory (though prohibited by international law*) will prove irresistible.
    Being first is, in that context, secondary.

    *The Outer Space Treaty
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,750
    edited July 2023

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_xP said:

    An SNP activist is canvassing support to challenge Humza Yousaf for the leadership in the latest sign that discipline is disintegrating within the party.

    Chris Hanlon has filled out the paperwork to mount a coup against the first minister and is soliciting nominations online.

    On Sunday he tweeted that he would give ordinary members more power to decide policy and break from a top-down style of leadership.

    If Hanlon, secretary of the West Fife and Coastal Villages branch, receives 100 nominations, he would force the second leadership contest in the SNP in six months, following the bitter race to replace Nicola Sturgeon when she resigned in February.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-activist-plots-leadership-bid-as-discipline-breaks-down-xhj2qglgr

    Useless putting a link to a paywall
    I don’t think it’s fair to blame him for the Times paywall.

    Oh sorry, was that a verb not your nickname for Yousaf?
    Whatever it was, it wasn’t a verb.
    The language police are always with us...

    FWIW, I can quite see "to useless" something catching on.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451
    edited July 2023

    Good news from Spain that Vox fell sharply backwards. They ran a campaign offering all kinds of reactionary policies, literally implored people to vote for them on their posters, and lost ground rapidly.

    The best PSOE result in terms of vote share since 2007 and a major polling failure. Only one pollster had them getting over 30% and that was the widely derided CIS, which has always been accused of being biased to the left.

    A humiliation for Vox and a personal disaster for PP leader Feijóo, who is going to struggle to retain control of a party that expected the process of forming a government to have begun today but has now learned that just being anti-Sánchez was not enough.

    Now, we’re almost certainly heading for new elections in November or December, with Sánchez likely to be caretaker PM in the meantime. There is a narrow path to him forming a new government, if everything falls his way - but that is highly unlikely as its Catalan separatists, who also had a terrible night, that will decide.

    Notable that despite the summer polling date turnout rose from 66% to 70%. The progressive Spain turned out to keep Vox out of power. There’s a lesson there for PP. But will they learn it? They are a party much like the 2019 Tories - one with a split personality, that took votes from former C’s and Vox supporters, from the centre and the far right. How do you keep such a coalition together if being anti-Sánchez is not enough?

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,750
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451

    It’s not difficult for voters in London to identify the anti-Conservative candidate with the best chance of winning. Labour have usually been 30%+ ahead of the LibDem or Green in third place. The smaller parties have been squeezed even though we had an ordinal voting system. They’ll stay squeezed under FPTP.

    The only thing that could threaten Labour is a serious independent candidacy. Which means (J) Corbyn. Even if he does stand, I’d think Khan the favourite.

    I just don’t see Corbyn running. For a start, why enter a race you will lose? But, secondly, as the vote is in May, he’d have to declare his candidacy well in advance of that. This would immediately lead to his expulsion from the Labour party and it’s pretty clear now he’s keen to avoid that for as long as possible.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,240
    Disturbing report from Israel. If the writer is correct, Israel is on the cusp of becoming a theocratic post-democracy

    https://www.ft.com/content/b027a525-05b1-45fc-a2c2-f131d341bc6b


  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,420
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The new space race is on.
    With China this time, Russia's participation in anything but destruction being over.

    China sets out preliminary crewed lunar landing plan
    https://spacenews.com/china-sets-out-preliminary-crewed-lunar-landing-plan/

    They do need to get the funding from the Central Committee. Which is split on the issue. They are worried that even if they splash out, they might come second to the Americans.
    I suspect the push to stake claims to lunar territory (though prohibited by international law*) will prove irresistible.
    Being first is, in that context, secondary.

    *The Outer Space Treaty
    Lunar ice

    {I’ll get my coat. It’s the one with the spare mechanical arm in it}
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,042
    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    The word 'crisis ' has become a meaningless joke word.

    Should only be used to mean "turning point in a disease" like in the good old days.
    I don't think that's quite what the nothing to see here crew have in mind.
    Well, stranded holidaymakers is the kind of story that has been sensationalised for as long as I can remember, I guess linking it to global heating is what some people don't like? There definitely seems to be an increase in wildfires in the Mediterranean (and elsewhere) in recent years, and an increased likelihood of heatwaves. But to really hit the headlines it has to affect British holidaymakers.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,139

    Good news from Spain that Vox fell sharply backwards. They ran a campaign offering all kinds of reactionary policies, literally implored people to vote for them on their posters, and lost ground rapidly.

    The best PSOE result in terms of vote share since 2007 and a major polling failure. Only one pollster had them getting over 30% and that was the widely derided CIS, which has always been accused of being biased to the left.

    A humiliation for Vox and a personal disaster for PP leader Feijóo, who is going to struggle to retain control of a party that expected the process of forming a government to have begun today but has now learned that just being anti-Sánchez was not enough.

    Now, we’re almost certainly heading for new elections in November or December, with Sánchez likely to be caretaker PM in the meantime. There is a narrow path to him forming a new government, if everything falls his way - but that is highly unlikely as its Catalan separatists, who also had a terrible night, that will decide.

    Notable that despite the summer polling date turnout rose from 66% to 70%. The progressive Spain turned out to keep Vox out of power. There’s a lesson there for PP. But will they learn it? They are a party much like the 2019 Tories - one with a split personality, that took votes from former C’s and Vox supporters, from the centre and the far right. How do you keep such a coalition together if being anti-Sánchez is not enough?

    Agree mostly. I suspect Feijoo will not survive. There is talk of Juanma Moreno, the Andalucian President who did get an absolute majority here and who remains a popular centrist. The mainstream parties both improved but not quite close enough for PP. The left have their problems too, only getting the barest of majorities if the right wing JUNTS back them in return for..what? Autumn elections do seem likely.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 7,904

    Heathener said:

    This is a very good tip by @MikeSmithson by the way.

    Sadiq has made a huge error with ulez. However, I suspect it will blow over and that he will be re-elected.

    It ought to serve as a warning to Labour. It's during their third term in office that they will combine arrogance with fatigue.

    History repeats itself. Has to. No one listens.

    If you apply the Uxbridge swing to the London Mayoral contest, then Khan wins by the biggest margin in any London Mayoral contest.

    That’s the point. ULEZ may have allowed the Tories to hold on in Uxbridge, but there was still a substantial swing against them. The underlying unpopularity of the Conservatives is the bigger factor. Lay Hall.
    Or perhaps ULEZ was the reason for the massive swing 😉

    I don't know much about London politics, but in a city where 46% of households don't have access to a car at all, I can't see how this can become an issue for Khan without a hysterical misinformation campaign from CCHQ. 90% of those cars are ULEZ compliant, so we are talking about less than 5% of households.

    Car ownership is also strongly correlated with earnings and location. The people with cars are already likely to be voting Tory. You might find that non-ULEZ compliant cars are more likely to be owned by poorer drivers, but I'd guess this is still a very small number of possible labour voters.

    There are some recent stats that suggest cycling had now overtaken driving in parts of central London, so like with all Pigou taxes, ULEZ will become a smaller issue going forward.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451
    felix said:

    Good news from Spain that Vox fell sharply backwards. They ran a campaign offering all kinds of reactionary policies, literally implored people to vote for them on their posters, and lost ground rapidly.

    The extreme left and nationalist parties also fell back yet ironically it is the right wing JUNTS in Catalonia who now can decide who runs Spain. It's a big hot mess especially as the Senate now has a clear absolute majority for the centre right. I think that the Senate has control over constitutional matters .
    Yep, the separatist parties in Catalonia were heavily defeated - although that can be partially explained by a poll boycott organised by the major civic nationalist organisation there. However, the end result was that by voting so heavily for the socialists, Catalonia was key to preventing a PP/Vox majority. Something that totally vindicates Sánchez’s softly softly approach to Catalonia since 2018.

    It was a slightly different story in the Basque Country, though. Radical separatist party Bildu beat the conservative nationalist PNV for the first time ever. That is seismic. The Basques have been much quieter than the Catalans over recent years, pretty content to enjoy the extensive autonomy they have. This is now going to change. Expect a lot more noise and close cooperation with the more radical elements of Catalan separatism.

  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 7,904

    Good morning

    I cannot see Susan Hall winning the London mayoral contest unless something entirely unexpected happens to the labour vote

    I think Scotland's SNP/Greens are heading for considerable unpopularity especially if the Greens policy of banning gas boilers comes into force in 2025

    Apparently it will be a requirement to sell a home for it to comply with energy rating c but they are to change the formulae to ensure it cannot be achieved with a gas boiler.

    The result will see all homes to either install a heat pump or electric heating to be saleable at a cost of 33 billion with approx 1.8 billion from the Scottish government

    This, if approved, would be their poll tax and when added to their proposition to vastly increases council tax and higher rates of tax anyway compared to the rest of the UK, will the last person to leave please switch off the lights

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/23670366.gas-boilers-set-penalised-energy-efficiency-overhaul/

    Apparently it will be a requirement to sell a home for it to comply with energy rating c but they are to change the formulae to ensure it cannot be achieved with a gas boiler.

    Could you point out where in the article or policy it says that? Asking for a friend...

    Also - they aren't banning gas boilers, just updating building regs to say that new builds can't have them. Most new builds in Edinburgh don't have boilers anyway.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,750
    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    The word 'crisis ' has become a meaningless joke word.

    Should only be used to mean "turning point in a disease" like in the good old days.
    I don't think that's quite what the nothing to see here crew have in mind.
    Well, stranded holidaymakers is the kind of story that has been sensationalised for as long as I can remember, I guess linking it to global heating is what some people don't like? There definitely seems to be an increase in wildfires in the Mediterranean (and elsewhere) in recent years, and an increased likelihood of heatwaves. But to really hit the headlines it has to affect British holidaymakers.
    The unprecedented (in human memory) wave of forest fires around the globe of recent years is arguably a symptom of a climate inflection point - albeit one that's measured in years and decades, rather than days and weeks.

    In the particular case of Rhodes, has it ever had fires this large ?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,541
    Eabhal said:

    Heathener said:

    This is a very good tip by @MikeSmithson by the way.

    Sadiq has made a huge error with ulez. However, I suspect it will blow over and that he will be re-elected.

    It ought to serve as a warning to Labour. It's during their third term in office that they will combine arrogance with fatigue.

    History repeats itself. Has to. No one listens.

    If you apply the Uxbridge swing to the London Mayoral contest, then Khan wins by the biggest margin in any London Mayoral contest.

    That’s the point. ULEZ may have allowed the Tories to hold on in Uxbridge, but there was still a substantial swing against them. The underlying unpopularity of the Conservatives is the bigger factor. Lay Hall.
    Or perhaps ULEZ was the reason for the massive swing 😉

    I don't know much about London politics, but in a city where 46% of households don't have access to a car at all, I can't see how this can become an issue for Khan without a hysterical misinformation campaign from CCHQ. 90% of those cars are ULEZ compliant, so we are talking about less than 5% of households.

    Car ownership is also strongly correlated with earnings and location. The people with cars are already likely to be voting Tory. You might find that non-ULEZ compliant cars are more likely to be owned by poorer drivers, but I'd guess this is still a very small number of possible labour voters.

    There are some recent stats that suggest cycling had now overtaken driving in parts of central London, so like with all Pigou taxes, ULEZ will become a smaller issue going forward.
    If you are a Labour candidate fighting a London marginal- Uxbridge, say, or Dagenham & Rainham, then you may feel that you personally can't afford to lose any votes at all. In Havering, Labour are also trying the "give me clean air, but not yet" line, which doesn't really work.

    It's a similar issue to the "where to build houses?" one in a way. Something can be the right thing for the community as a whole, but some candidates are incentivised to oppose it tooth and nail.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,358
    ...
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 7,904
    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    The word 'crisis ' has become a meaningless joke word.

    Should only be used to mean "turning point in a disease" like in the good old days.
    I don't think that's quite what the nothing to see here crew have in mind.
    Well, stranded holidaymakers is the kind of story that has been sensationalised for as long as I can remember, I guess linking it to global heating is what some people don't like? There definitely seems to be an increase in wildfires in the Mediterranean (and elsewhere) in recent years, and an increased likelihood of heatwaves. But to really hit the headlines it has to affect British holidaymakers.
    The unprecedented (in human memory) wave of forest fires around the globe of recent years is arguably a symptom of a climate inflection point - albeit one that's measured in years and decades, rather than days and weeks.

    In the particular case of Rhodes, has it ever had fires this large ?
    It's the increase in average temperatures which is the tell. The wildfires are just "weather", but the prevalence of such weather was expected to increase as the world heats up.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,420
    Eabhal said:

    Heathener said:

    This is a very good tip by @MikeSmithson by the way.

    Sadiq has made a huge error with ulez. However, I suspect it will blow over and that he will be re-elected.

    It ought to serve as a warning to Labour. It's during their third term in office that they will combine arrogance with fatigue.

    History repeats itself. Has to. No one listens.

    If you apply the Uxbridge swing to the London Mayoral contest, then Khan wins by the biggest margin in any London Mayoral contest.

    That’s the point. ULEZ may have allowed the Tories to hold on in Uxbridge, but there was still a substantial swing against them. The underlying unpopularity of the Conservatives is the bigger factor. Lay Hall.
    Or perhaps ULEZ was the reason for the massive swing 😉

    I don't know much about London politics, but in a city where 46% of households don't have access to a car at all, I can't see how this can become an issue for Khan without a hysterical misinformation campaign from CCHQ. 90% of those cars are ULEZ compliant, so we are talking about less than 5% of households.

    Car ownership is also strongly correlated with earnings and location. The people with cars are already likely to be voting Tory. You might find that non-ULEZ compliant cars are more likely to be owned by poorer drivers, but I'd guess this is still a very small number of possible labour voters.

    There are some recent stats that suggest cycling had now overtaken driving in parts of central London, so like with all Pigou taxes, ULEZ will become a smaller issue going forward.
    Outer London is different. In many suburbs, car usage isn’t optional. In addition, the assumption is that the next stage of ULEZ is coming. So it’s far more than the immediately effected drivers.

    The overall car taxation in London, on parking, congestion charge etc. is nothing if you can afford an EV. Otherwise you pay.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,240
    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    The word 'crisis ' has become a meaningless joke word.

    Should only be used to mean "turning point in a disease" like in the good old days.
    I don't think that's quite what the nothing to see here crew have in mind.
    Well, stranded holidaymakers is the kind of story that has been sensationalised for as long as I can remember, I guess linking it to global heating is what some people don't like? There definitely seems to be an increase in wildfires in the Mediterranean (and elsewhere) in recent years, and an increased likelihood of heatwaves. But to really hit the headlines it has to affect British holidaymakers.
    The unprecedented (in human memory) wave of forest fires around the globe of recent years is arguably a symptom of a climate inflection point - albeit one that's measured in years and decades, rather than days and weeks.

    In the particular case of Rhodes, has it ever had fires this large ?
    I dunno about Rhodes, but the importance of the fires - to me - is the way so many climatic dramas are happening simultaneously, worldwide. From heat domes in the USA to 52C - an all time record - in China. Thailand broke its all time record when I was there in spring (and it was horrible)

    Now Europe burns as well. It does feel like an inflection
  • TazTaz Posts: 13,605
    Eabhal said:

    Heathener said:

    This is a very good tip by @MikeSmithson by the way.

    Sadiq has made a huge error with ulez. However, I suspect it will blow over and that he will be re-elected.

    It ought to serve as a warning to Labour. It's during their third term in office that they will combine arrogance with fatigue.

    History repeats itself. Has to. No one listens.

    If you apply the Uxbridge swing to the London Mayoral contest, then Khan wins by the biggest margin in any London Mayoral contest.

    That’s the point. ULEZ may have allowed the Tories to hold on in Uxbridge, but there was still a substantial swing against them. The underlying unpopularity of the Conservatives is the bigger factor. Lay Hall.
    Or perhaps ULEZ was the reason for the massive swing 😉

    I don't know much about London politics, but in a city where 46% of households don't have access to a car at all, I can't see how this can become an issue for Khan without a hysterical misinformation campaign from CCHQ. 90% of those cars are ULEZ compliant, so we are talking about less than 5% of households.

    Car ownership is also strongly correlated with earnings and location. The people with cars are already likely to be voting Tory. You might find that non-ULEZ compliant cars are more likely to be owned by poorer drivers, but I'd guess this is still a very small number of possible labour voters.

    There are some recent stats that suggest cycling had now overtaken driving in parts of central London, so like with all Pigou taxes, ULEZ will become a smaller issue going forward.
    As sure as night follows day the pro ULEZ lobbyists are doing the rounds of the news studios expanding on the virtue of ULEZ and leading the fightback.

    Apparently Angela Rayner was saying, was misquoted as saying, ULEZ is coming everywhere. An interesting point of debate for the next election looms.

    I expect this to be the precursor of charging per mile as we move away from fuel duty on petrol.

  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 7,904
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    The word 'crisis ' has become a meaningless joke word.

    Should only be used to mean "turning point in a disease" like in the good old days.
    I don't think that's quite what the nothing to see here crew have in mind.
    Well, stranded holidaymakers is the kind of story that has been sensationalised for as long as I can remember, I guess linking it to global heating is what some people don't like? There definitely seems to be an increase in wildfires in the Mediterranean (and elsewhere) in recent years, and an increased likelihood of heatwaves. But to really hit the headlines it has to affect British holidaymakers.
    The unprecedented (in human memory) wave of forest fires around the globe of recent years is arguably a symptom of a climate inflection point - albeit one that's measured in years and decades, rather than days and weeks.

    In the particular case of Rhodes, has it ever had fires this large ?
    I dunno about Rhodes, but the importance of the fires - to me - is the way so many climatic dramas are happening simultaneously, worldwide. From heat domes in the USA to 52C - an all time record - in China. Thailand broke its all time record when I was there in spring (and it was horrible)

    Now Europe burns as well. It does feel like an inflection
    "While Rhodes burns" is a good line
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,627
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    The word 'crisis ' has become a meaningless joke word.

    Should only be used to mean "turning point in a disease" like in the good old days.
    I don't think that's quite what the nothing to see here crew have in mind.
    Well, stranded holidaymakers is the kind of story that has been sensationalised for as long as I can remember, I guess linking it to global heating is what some people don't like? There definitely seems to be an increase in wildfires in the Mediterranean (and elsewhere) in recent years, and an increased likelihood of heatwaves. But to really hit the headlines it has to affect British holidaymakers.
    The unprecedented (in human memory) wave of forest fires around the globe of recent years is arguably a symptom of a climate inflection point - albeit one that's measured in years and decades, rather than days and weeks.

    In the particular case of Rhodes, has it ever had fires this large ?
    I dunno about Rhodes, but the importance of the fires - to me - is the way so many climatic dramas are happening simultaneously, worldwide. From heat domes in the USA to 52C - an all time record - in China. Thailand broke its all time record when I was there in spring (and it was horrible)

    Now Europe burns as well. It does feel like an inflection
    "While Rhodes burns" is a good line
    Don't give the students at Oriel more ideas.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,369
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    The word 'crisis ' has become a meaningless joke word.

    Should only be used to mean "turning point in a disease" like in the good old days.
    I don't think that's quite what the nothing to see here crew have in mind.
    Well, stranded holidaymakers is the kind of story that has been sensationalised for as long as I can remember, I guess linking it to global heating is what some people don't like? There definitely seems to be an increase in wildfires in the Mediterranean (and elsewhere) in recent years, and an increased likelihood of heatwaves. But to really hit the headlines it has to affect British holidaymakers.
    The unprecedented (in human memory) wave of forest fires around the globe of recent years is arguably a symptom of a climate inflection point - albeit one that's measured in years and decades, rather than days and weeks.

    In the particular case of Rhodes, has it ever had fires this large ?
    I dunno about Rhodes, but the importance of the fires - to me - is the way so many climatic dramas are happening simultaneously, worldwide. From heat domes in the USA to 52C - an all time record - in China. Thailand broke its all time record when I was there in spring (and it was horrible)

    Now Europe burns as well. It does feel like an inflection
    "While Rhodes burns" is a good line
    It was also an Ali G episode.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,314
    Taz said:

    Eabhal said:

    Heathener said:

    This is a very good tip by @MikeSmithson by the way.

    Sadiq has made a huge error with ulez. However, I suspect it will blow over and that he will be re-elected.

    It ought to serve as a warning to Labour. It's during their third term in office that they will combine arrogance with fatigue.

    History repeats itself. Has to. No one listens.

    If you apply the Uxbridge swing to the London Mayoral contest, then Khan wins by the biggest margin in any London Mayoral contest.

    That’s the point. ULEZ may have allowed the Tories to hold on in Uxbridge, but there was still a substantial swing against them. The underlying unpopularity of the Conservatives is the bigger factor. Lay Hall.
    Or perhaps ULEZ was the reason for the massive swing 😉

    I don't know much about London politics, but in a city where 46% of households don't have access to a car at all, I can't see how this can become an issue for Khan without a hysterical misinformation campaign from CCHQ. 90% of those cars are ULEZ compliant, so we are talking about less than 5% of households.

    Car ownership is also strongly correlated with earnings and location. The people with cars are already likely to be voting Tory. You might find that non-ULEZ compliant cars are more likely to be owned by poorer drivers, but I'd guess this is still a very small number of possible labour voters.

    There are some recent stats that suggest cycling had now overtaken driving in parts of central London, so like with all Pigou taxes, ULEZ will become a smaller issue going forward.
    As sure as night follows day the pro ULEZ lobbyists are doing the rounds of the news studios expanding on the virtue of ULEZ and leading the fightback.

    Apparently Angela Rayner was saying, was misquoted as saying, ULEZ is coming everywhere. An interesting point of debate for the next election looms.

    I expect this to be the precursor of charging per mile as we move away from fuel duty on petrol.

    One of very few things that might rescue the Tories at the GE, would be a bunch of city dwellers from Labour pledging a full-on war on cars in the rest of the country.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,503
    The reactionaries think they’ve found their new Wunderwaffe.


  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 7,904
    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    Eabhal said:

    Heathener said:

    This is a very good tip by @MikeSmithson by the way.

    Sadiq has made a huge error with ulez. However, I suspect it will blow over and that he will be re-elected.

    It ought to serve as a warning to Labour. It's during their third term in office that they will combine arrogance with fatigue.

    History repeats itself. Has to. No one listens.

    If you apply the Uxbridge swing to the London Mayoral contest, then Khan wins by the biggest margin in any London Mayoral contest.

    That’s the point. ULEZ may have allowed the Tories to hold on in Uxbridge, but there was still a substantial swing against them. The underlying unpopularity of the Conservatives is the bigger factor. Lay Hall.
    Or perhaps ULEZ was the reason for the massive swing 😉

    I don't know much about London politics, but in a city where 46% of households don't have access to a car at all, I can't see how this can become an issue for Khan without a hysterical misinformation campaign from CCHQ. 90% of those cars are ULEZ compliant, so we are talking about less than 5% of households.

    Car ownership is also strongly correlated with earnings and location. The people with cars are already likely to be voting Tory. You might find that non-ULEZ compliant cars are more likely to be owned by poorer drivers, but I'd guess this is still a very small number of possible labour voters.

    There are some recent stats that suggest cycling had now overtaken driving in parts of central London, so like with all Pigou taxes, ULEZ will become a smaller issue going forward.
    As sure as night follows day the pro ULEZ lobbyists are doing the rounds of the news studios expanding on the virtue of ULEZ and leading the fightback.

    Apparently Angela Rayner was saying, was misquoted as saying, ULEZ is coming everywhere. An interesting point of debate for the next election looms.

    I expect this to be the precursor of charging per mile as we move away from fuel duty on petrol.

    One of very few things that might rescue the Tories at the GE, would be a bunch of city dwellers from Labour pledging a full-on war on cars in the rest of the country.
    That would be very silly. The natural successors to fuel duty/VED are axle-load tax and congestion charging.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,420
    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    Eabhal said:

    Heathener said:

    This is a very good tip by @MikeSmithson by the way.

    Sadiq has made a huge error with ulez. However, I suspect it will blow over and that he will be re-elected.

    It ought to serve as a warning to Labour. It's during their third term in office that they will combine arrogance with fatigue.

    History repeats itself. Has to. No one listens.

    If you apply the Uxbridge swing to the London Mayoral contest, then Khan wins by the biggest margin in any London Mayoral contest.

    That’s the point. ULEZ may have allowed the Tories to hold on in Uxbridge, but there was still a substantial swing against them. The underlying unpopularity of the Conservatives is the bigger factor. Lay Hall.
    Or perhaps ULEZ was the reason for the massive swing 😉

    I don't know much about London politics, but in a city where 46% of households don't have access to a car at all, I can't see how this can become an issue for Khan without a hysterical misinformation campaign from CCHQ. 90% of those cars are ULEZ compliant, so we are talking about less than 5% of households.

    Car ownership is also strongly correlated with earnings and location. The people with cars are already likely to be voting Tory. You might find that non-ULEZ compliant cars are more likely to be owned by poorer drivers, but I'd guess this is still a very small number of possible labour voters.

    There are some recent stats that suggest cycling had now overtaken driving in parts of central London, so like with all Pigou taxes, ULEZ will become a smaller issue going forward.
    As sure as night follows day the pro ULEZ lobbyists are doing the rounds of the news studios expanding on the virtue of ULEZ and leading the fightback.

    Apparently Angela Rayner was saying, was misquoted as saying, ULEZ is coming everywhere. An interesting point of debate for the next election looms.

    I expect this to be the precursor of charging per mile as we move away from fuel duty on petrol.

    One of very few things that might rescue the Tories at the GE, would be a bunch of city dwellers from Labour pledging a full-on war on cars in the rest of the country.
    1) the aim of the policy is virtuous.
    2) therefore the policy is perfect.
    3) therefore anyone who opposes us is scum
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    The word 'crisis ' has become a meaningless joke word.

    Should only be used to mean "turning point in a disease" like in the good old days.
    I don't think that's quite what the nothing to see here crew have in mind.
    Well, stranded holidaymakers is the kind of story that has been sensationalised for as long as I can remember, I guess linking it to global heating is what some people don't like? There definitely seems to be an increase in wildfires in the Mediterranean (and elsewhere) in recent years, and an increased likelihood of heatwaves. But to really hit the headlines it has to affect British holidaymakers.
    The unprecedented (in human memory) wave of forest fires around the globe of recent years is arguably a symptom of a climate inflection point - albeit one that's measured in years and decades, rather than days and weeks.

    In the particular case of Rhodes, has it ever had fires this large ?
    The photos from Rhodes are extraordinary. What with small ship evacuations from beaches, repatriation flights and people walking 12 hours carrying luggage to reach them, it is The Road meets Dunkirk. Or, it's just hot weather, what do you expect in Greece in July?

    The nothing to see faction really need to point to a precedent.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,444
    Possible that Labour might have found a reasonable middle ground on a contentious issue. Certainly the write-up is very positive.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/24/labour-vows-to-modernise-simplify-and-reform-gender-recognition-act
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,135
    edited July 2023
    Eabhal said:

    Heathener said:

    This is a very good tip by @MikeSmithson by the way.

    Sadiq has made a huge error with ulez. However, I suspect it will blow over and that he will be re-elected.

    It ought to serve as a warning to Labour. It's during their third term in office that they will combine arrogance with fatigue.

    History repeats itself. Has to. No one listens.

    If you apply the Uxbridge swing to the London Mayoral contest, then Khan wins by the biggest margin in any London Mayoral contest.

    That’s the point. ULEZ may have allowed the Tories to hold on in Uxbridge, but there was still a substantial swing against them. The underlying unpopularity of the Conservatives is the bigger factor. Lay Hall.
    Or perhaps ULEZ was the reason for the massive swing 😉

    I don't know much about London politics, but in a city where 46% of households don't have access to a car at all, I can't see how this can become an issue for Khan without a hysterical misinformation campaign from CCHQ. 90% of those cars are ULEZ compliant, so we are talking about less than 5% of households.

    Car ownership is also strongly correlated with earnings and location. The people with cars are already likely to be voting Tory. You might find that non-ULEZ compliant cars are more likely to be owned by poorer drivers, but I'd guess this is still a very small number of possible labour voters.

    There are some recent stats that suggest cycling had now overtaken driving in parts of central London, so like with all Pigou taxes, ULEZ will become a smaller issue going forward.
    Virtually none of the 46% of households without access to a car are changing their vote because of ULEZ.

    A lot of the households with non compliant cars are both incentived to turn out and switch.

    As with VAT on private schools it makes no difference electorally that the majority support the policy, the switchers are nearly all on one side.

    The gap between Khan and Bailey last time was 120,000 votes - a lot more than that will be impacted by ULEZ. If Corbyn joins the show it feels pretty tough for Khan to me. One quirk is that if Corbyn does join, it might prompt other high profile independents as not impossible the winning number could be in the mid twenties.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,314
    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    Eabhal said:

    Heathener said:

    This is a very good tip by @MikeSmithson by the way.

    Sadiq has made a huge error with ulez. However, I suspect it will blow over and that he will be re-elected.

    It ought to serve as a warning to Labour. It's during their third term in office that they will combine arrogance with fatigue.

    History repeats itself. Has to. No one listens.

    If you apply the Uxbridge swing to the London Mayoral contest, then Khan wins by the biggest margin in any London Mayoral contest.

    That’s the point. ULEZ may have allowed the Tories to hold on in Uxbridge, but there was still a substantial swing against them. The underlying unpopularity of the Conservatives is the bigger factor. Lay Hall.
    Or perhaps ULEZ was the reason for the massive swing 😉

    I don't know much about London politics, but in a city where 46% of households don't have access to a car at all, I can't see how this can become an issue for Khan without a hysterical misinformation campaign from CCHQ. 90% of those cars are ULEZ compliant, so we are talking about less than 5% of households.

    Car ownership is also strongly correlated with earnings and location. The people with cars are already likely to be voting Tory. You might find that non-ULEZ compliant cars are more likely to be owned by poorer drivers, but I'd guess this is still a very small number of possible labour voters.

    There are some recent stats that suggest cycling had now overtaken driving in parts of central London, so like with all Pigou taxes, ULEZ will become a smaller issue going forward.
    As sure as night follows day the pro ULEZ lobbyists are doing the rounds of the news studios expanding on the virtue of ULEZ and leading the fightback.

    Apparently Angela Rayner was saying, was misquoted as saying, ULEZ is coming everywhere. An interesting point of debate for the next election looms.

    I expect this to be the precursor of charging per mile as we move away from fuel duty on petrol.

    One of very few things that might rescue the Tories at the GE, would be a bunch of city dwellers from Labour pledging a full-on war on cars in the rest of the country.
    That would be very silly. The natural successors to fuel duty/VED are axle-load tax and congestion charging.
    Yes - so long as one approach replaces the other, and isn’t in addition to it.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,648

    Fishing said:

    An interesting argument. But I don't see the Conservatives winning unless:two things happen:

    - they pick a popular celebrity candidate, of the kind that has such huge advantage in direct elections like this; and
    - they recover significantly in national politics.

    Boris won narrowly in 2008 when he had good name recognition and Labour were hugely unpopular nationally and in 2012, he was the incumbent, which gives a big advantage in being known.

    So good luck to OGH but I'm not sure I'd take 7/1 for Susan Who?

    Agreed. The other thing would be needing a popular celebrity candidate who isn’t labelable as a party hack.

    None of the Mayors of London so far have primarily been identified by their party affiliation, in the public eye. Khan is the closest to a standard party candidate, but most people don’t regard him as Mr Labour.
    Khan is a figure of ridicule. ULEZ has given him a bloody nose because he tried to force it through. It won't be forgotten however much Labour apologise.
    No. ULEZ policy is good. The implementation sucks, a bit.

    Turing this into culture wars bullshit is so Donald Fucking Trump.

    1) London needs cleaner air
    2) Historically, the best way to achieve this is incrementally improving standards. As proven many times in many places
    3) The “ULEZ policy”that was implemented was just one of a number of possible policies.
    4) Not being impressed with 3) doesn’t mean opposing 1 & 2.
    What makes me laugh about the Tory attempt to create ULEZ as a culture war issue is that it's their policy. Implemented by Boris for inner London, imposed on the suburbs by Grant Shapps. Where the "it will tax motorists" attack is literally what Shapps demanded as part of the TfL bailouts.

    If the Tories want to oppose their own policy that's fine. But claiming - as some have - that this is "typical socialism" is painfully deluded. Perhaps Michael Green is a socialist?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,444
    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    Eabhal said:

    Heathener said:

    This is a very good tip by @MikeSmithson by the way.

    Sadiq has made a huge error with ulez. However, I suspect it will blow over and that he will be re-elected.

    It ought to serve as a warning to Labour. It's during their third term in office that they will combine arrogance with fatigue.

    History repeats itself. Has to. No one listens.

    If you apply the Uxbridge swing to the London Mayoral contest, then Khan wins by the biggest margin in any London Mayoral contest.

    That’s the point. ULEZ may have allowed the Tories to hold on in Uxbridge, but there was still a substantial swing against them. The underlying unpopularity of the Conservatives is the bigger factor. Lay Hall.
    Or perhaps ULEZ was the reason for the massive swing 😉

    I don't know much about London politics, but in a city where 46% of households don't have access to a car at all, I can't see how this can become an issue for Khan without a hysterical misinformation campaign from CCHQ. 90% of those cars are ULEZ compliant, so we are talking about less than 5% of households.

    Car ownership is also strongly correlated with earnings and location. The people with cars are already likely to be voting Tory. You might find that non-ULEZ compliant cars are more likely to be owned by poorer drivers, but I'd guess this is still a very small number of possible labour voters.

    There are some recent stats that suggest cycling had now overtaken driving in parts of central London, so like with all Pigou taxes, ULEZ will become a smaller issue going forward.
    As sure as night follows day the pro ULEZ lobbyists are doing the rounds of the news studios expanding on the virtue of ULEZ and leading the fightback.

    Apparently Angela Rayner was saying, was misquoted as saying, ULEZ is coming everywhere. An interesting point of debate for the next election looms.

    I expect this to be the precursor of charging per mile as we move away from fuel duty on petrol.

    One of very few things that might rescue the Tories at the GE, would be a bunch of city dwellers from Labour pledging a full-on war on cars in the rest of the country.
    That would be very silly. The natural successors to fuel duty/VED are axle-load tax and congestion charging.
    I don't think congestion charging can raise remotely as much money as fuel duty.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,358
    @JasonGroves1

    Foreign Office minister Andrew Mitchell sounding shaky on the future of the 2030 petrol car ban: ‘All I can tell you is that it’s in place… I can’t prophesy the future’
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,866
    Morning all.

    The Trump trial date on the 'classified documents' charges set for May 2024.
    https://edition.cnn.com/2023/07/21/politics/trump-trial-date/index.html

    Hmmm.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,007
    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    The word 'crisis ' has become a meaningless joke word.

    Should only be used to mean "turning point in a disease" like in the good old days.
    I don't think that's quite what the nothing to see here crew have in mind.
    Well, stranded holidaymakers is the kind of story that has been sensationalised for as long as I can remember, I guess linking it to global heating is what some people don't like? There definitely seems to be an increase in wildfires in the Mediterranean (and elsewhere) in recent years, and an increased likelihood of heatwaves. But to really hit the headlines it has to affect British holidaymakers.
    The unprecedented (in human memory) wave of forest fires around the globe of recent years is arguably a symptom of a climate inflection point - albeit one that's measured in years and decades, rather than days and weeks.

    In the particular case of Rhodes, has it ever had fires this large ?
    I think there will be a series of climate tipping points that will be observable over the next 50 years. A lot of these (forest fires, melting permafrost, glacial melting) will worsen global warming given the net emissions impact or reduction in the albedo effect.

    I also suspect that, absent major technological breakthroughs, the political will to push to net zero within democracies will fall short. The cost of certain aspects will just not be politically viable, particularly in the US.

    Politically, mass migration from the worst affected areas is the most predictable result of all of this.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,648
    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    The word 'crisis ' has become a meaningless joke word.

    Should only be used to mean "turning point in a disease" like in the good old days.
    I don't think that's quite what the nothing to see here crew have in mind.
    Well, stranded holidaymakers is the kind of story that has been sensationalised for as long as I can remember, I guess linking it to global heating is what some people don't like? There definitely seems to be an increase in wildfires in the Mediterranean (and elsewhere) in recent years, and an increased likelihood of heatwaves. But to really hit the headlines it has to affect British holidaymakers.
    With a special credit to TUI. It takes epic cynicism to keep flying holidaymakers into an inferno, with the aim of avoiding liability and refund.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,314
    MattW said:

    Morning all.

    The Trump trial date on the 'classified documents' charges set for May 2024.
    https://edition.cnn.com/2023/07/21/politics/trump-trial-date/index.html

    Hmmm.

    By which time he could very easily be the presumptive nominee, and he’d be pushing for a postponement.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,240
    Miklosvar said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    The word 'crisis ' has become a meaningless joke word.

    Should only be used to mean "turning point in a disease" like in the good old days.
    I don't think that's quite what the nothing to see here crew have in mind.
    Well, stranded holidaymakers is the kind of story that has been sensationalised for as long as I can remember, I guess linking it to global heating is what some people don't like? There definitely seems to be an increase in wildfires in the Mediterranean (and elsewhere) in recent years, and an increased likelihood of heatwaves. But to really hit the headlines it has to affect British holidaymakers.
    The unprecedented (in human memory) wave of forest fires around the globe of recent years is arguably a symptom of a climate inflection point - albeit one that's measured in years and decades, rather than days and weeks.

    In the particular case of Rhodes, has it ever had fires this large ?
    The photos from Rhodes are extraordinary. What with small ship evacuations from beaches, repatriation flights and people walking 12 hours carrying luggage to reach them, it is The Road meets Dunkirk. Or, it's just hot weather, what do you expect in Greece in July?

    The nothing to see faction really need to point to a precedent.
    It’s the largest wildfire evacuation in Greek history. 19,000 people. There is no precedent

    Remember, just as there are people wanting to exaggerate the story for social media dopamine hits, there are people desperate to minimise it: eg anyone in the Greek tourist industry or even the airlines (and one can sympathise)
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,238

    Good news from Spain that Vox fell sharply backwards. They ran a campaign offering all kinds of reactionary policies, literally implored people to vote for them on their posters, and lost ground rapidly.

    The best PSOE result in terms of vote share since 2007 and a major polling failure. Only one pollster had them getting over 30% and that was the widely derided CIS, which has always been accused of being biased to the left.

    A humiliation for Vox and a personal disaster for PP leader Feijóo, who is going to struggle to retain control of a party that expected the process of forming a government to have begun today but has now learned that just being anti-Sánchez was not enough.

    Now, we’re almost certainly heading for new elections in November or December, with Sánchez likely to be caretaker PM in the meantime. There is a narrow path to him forming a new government, if everything falls his way - but that is highly unlikely as its Catalan separatists, who also had a terrible night, that will decide.

    Notable that despite the summer polling date turnout rose from 66% to 70%. The progressive Spain turned out to keep Vox out of power. There’s a lesson there for PP. But will they learn it? They are a party much like the 2019 Tories - one with a split personality, that took votes from former C’s and Vox supporters, from the centre and the far right. How do you keep such a coalition together if being anti-Sánchez is not enough?

    I hadn’t realised C’s had literally given up. No great loss (their journey from centrist to proto-Vox was deeply unedifying) but rare to see a party implode quite so rapidly.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,544

    Eabhal said:

    Heathener said:

    This is a very good tip by @MikeSmithson by the way.

    Sadiq has made a huge error with ulez. However, I suspect it will blow over and that he will be re-elected.

    It ought to serve as a warning to Labour. It's during their third term in office that they will combine arrogance with fatigue.

    History repeats itself. Has to. No one listens.

    If you apply the Uxbridge swing to the London Mayoral contest, then Khan wins by the biggest margin in any London Mayoral contest.

    That’s the point. ULEZ may have allowed the Tories to hold on in Uxbridge, but there was still a substantial swing against them. The underlying unpopularity of the Conservatives is the bigger factor. Lay Hall.
    Or perhaps ULEZ was the reason for the massive swing 😉

    I don't know much about London politics, but in a city where 46% of households don't have access to a car at all, I can't see how this can become an issue for Khan without a hysterical misinformation campaign from CCHQ. 90% of those cars are ULEZ compliant, so we are talking about less than 5% of households.

    Car ownership is also strongly correlated with earnings and location. The people with cars are already likely to be voting Tory. You might find that non-ULEZ compliant cars are more likely to be owned by poorer drivers, but I'd guess this is still a very small number of possible labour voters.

    There are some recent stats that suggest cycling had now overtaken driving in parts of central London, so like with all Pigou taxes, ULEZ will become a smaller issue going forward.
    Outer London is different. In many suburbs, car usage isn’t optional. In addition, the assumption is that the next stage of ULEZ is coming. So it’s far more than the immediately effected drivers.

    The overall car taxation in London, on parking, congestion charge etc. is nothing if you can afford an EV. Otherwise you pay.
    Poorer drivers in outer London suburbs are not paying the congestion charge.
    I live inside the South Circular and work in central London, and I have never in my life paid the congestion charge.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,196

    Eabhal said:

    Heathener said:

    This is a very good tip by @MikeSmithson by the way.

    Sadiq has made a huge error with ulez. However, I suspect it will blow over and that he will be re-elected.

    It ought to serve as a warning to Labour. It's during their third term in office that they will combine arrogance with fatigue.

    History repeats itself. Has to. No one listens.

    If you apply the Uxbridge swing to the London Mayoral contest, then Khan wins by the biggest margin in any London Mayoral contest.

    That’s the point. ULEZ may have allowed the Tories to hold on in Uxbridge, but there was still a substantial swing against them. The underlying unpopularity of the Conservatives is the bigger factor. Lay Hall.
    Or perhaps ULEZ was the reason for the massive swing 😉

    I don't know much about London politics, but in a city where 46% of households don't have access to a car at all, I can't see how this can become an issue for Khan without a hysterical misinformation campaign from CCHQ. 90% of those cars are ULEZ compliant, so we are talking about less than 5% of households.

    Car ownership is also strongly correlated with earnings and location. The people with cars are already likely to be voting Tory. You might find that non-ULEZ compliant cars are more likely to be owned by poorer drivers, but I'd guess this is still a very small number of possible labour voters.

    There are some recent stats that suggest cycling had now overtaken driving in parts of central London, so like with all Pigou taxes, ULEZ will become a smaller issue going forward.
    Virtually none of the 46% of households without access to a car are changing their vote because of ULEZ.

    A lot of the households with non compliant cars are both incentived to turn out and switch.

    As with VAT on private schools it makes no difference electorally that the majority support the policy, the switchers are nearly all on one side.

    The gap between Khan and Bailey last time was 120,000 votes - a lot more than that will be impacted by ULEZ. If Corbyn joins the show it feels pretty tough for Khan to me. One quirk is that if Corbyn does join, it might prompt other high profile independents as not impossible the winning number could be in the mid twenties.
    A lot of the households with non-compliant cars already vote Tory. You're right, it's the switchers who matter, but how many switchers are there? What sunk Labour in Uxbridge was not people switching to the Tories, it was too few people switching to Labour. In London as a whole, as you say, Labour start with a big lead.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,444
    Ratters said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    The word 'crisis ' has become a meaningless joke word.

    Should only be used to mean "turning point in a disease" like in the good old days.
    I don't think that's quite what the nothing to see here crew have in mind.
    Well, stranded holidaymakers is the kind of story that has been sensationalised for as long as I can remember, I guess linking it to global heating is what some people don't like? There definitely seems to be an increase in wildfires in the Mediterranean (and elsewhere) in recent years, and an increased likelihood of heatwaves. But to really hit the headlines it has to affect British holidaymakers.
    The unprecedented (in human memory) wave of forest fires around the globe of recent years is arguably a symptom of a climate inflection point - albeit one that's measured in years and decades, rather than days and weeks.

    In the particular case of Rhodes, has it ever had fires this large ?
    I think there will be a series of climate tipping points that will be observable over the next 50 years. A lot of these (forest fires, melting permafrost, glacial melting) will worsen global warming given the net emissions impact or reduction in the albedo effect.

    I also suspect that, absent major technological breakthroughs, the political will to push to net zero within democracies will fall short. The cost of certain aspects will just not be politically viable, particularly in the US.

    Politically, mass migration from the worst affected areas is the most predictable result of all of this.
    I'm not sure we need any major technological breakthroughs to reach zero fossil fuel use. We have wind turbines, solar panels and batteries, and there is immense competition to produce continuous incremental improvements in all three technologies.

    Where the politics could make a difference, is in speeding up the pace of the transition to the new technology, so that the amount of global warming we end up with will be less.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,759
    Taz said:
    On both left and right, “woke capitalism” is seen as an exercise in hypocrisy.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,454
    edited July 2023
    Eabhal said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    The word 'crisis ' has become a meaningless joke word.

    Should only be used to mean "turning point in a disease" like in the good old days.
    I don't think that's quite what the nothing to see here crew have in mind.
    Well, stranded holidaymakers is the kind of story that has been sensationalised for as long as I can remember, I guess linking it to global heating is what some people don't like? There definitely seems to be an increase in wildfires in the Mediterranean (and elsewhere) in recent years, and an increased likelihood of heatwaves. But to really hit the headlines it has to affect British holidaymakers.
    The unprecedented (in human memory) wave of forest fires around the globe of recent years is arguably a symptom of a climate inflection point - albeit one that's measured in years and decades, rather than days and weeks.

    In the particular case of Rhodes, has it ever had fires this large ?
    It's the increase in average temperatures which is the tell. The wildfires are just "weather", but the prevalence of such weather was expected to increase as the world heats up.
    It's to be expected from the shape of the normal curve of the probability of extreme event with intensity A which normally happens only very rarely, i.e. we live at one end of the bell curve where probability is low. You warm things up, you move along the horizontal axis a little, but the probability of event (intensity = A) goes up disproportionately, because of the shape of the bell curve whgich is, well, bell-shaped.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,196
    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Morning all.

    The Trump trial date on the 'classified documents' charges set for May 2024.
    https://edition.cnn.com/2023/07/21/politics/trump-trial-date/index.html

    Hmmm.

    By which time he could very easily be the presumptive nominee, and he’d be pushing for a postponement.
    He can push for a postponement all he likes and he's got his tame judge in charge, but there isn't actually any legal reason to postpone a trial because someone is busy in another aspect of their life, is there?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,135

    Eabhal said:

    Heathener said:

    This is a very good tip by @MikeSmithson by the way.

    Sadiq has made a huge error with ulez. However, I suspect it will blow over and that he will be re-elected.

    It ought to serve as a warning to Labour. It's during their third term in office that they will combine arrogance with fatigue.

    History repeats itself. Has to. No one listens.

    If you apply the Uxbridge swing to the London Mayoral contest, then Khan wins by the biggest margin in any London Mayoral contest.

    That’s the point. ULEZ may have allowed the Tories to hold on in Uxbridge, but there was still a substantial swing against them. The underlying unpopularity of the Conservatives is the bigger factor. Lay Hall.
    Or perhaps ULEZ was the reason for the massive swing 😉

    I don't know much about London politics, but in a city where 46% of households don't have access to a car at all, I can't see how this can become an issue for Khan without a hysterical misinformation campaign from CCHQ. 90% of those cars are ULEZ compliant, so we are talking about less than 5% of households.

    Car ownership is also strongly correlated with earnings and location. The people with cars are already likely to be voting Tory. You might find that non-ULEZ compliant cars are more likely to be owned by poorer drivers, but I'd guess this is still a very small number of possible labour voters.

    There are some recent stats that suggest cycling had now overtaken driving in parts of central London, so like with all Pigou taxes, ULEZ will become a smaller issue going forward.
    Virtually none of the 46% of households without access to a car are changing their vote because of ULEZ.

    A lot of the households with non compliant cars are both incentived to turn out and switch.

    As with VAT on private schools it makes no difference electorally that the majority support the policy, the switchers are nearly all on one side.

    The gap between Khan and Bailey last time was 120,000 votes - a lot more than that will be impacted by ULEZ. If Corbyn joins the show it feels pretty tough for Khan to me. One quirk is that if Corbyn does join, it might prompt other high profile independents as not impossible the winning number could be in the mid twenties.
    A lot of the households with non-compliant cars already vote Tory. You're right, it's the switchers who matter, but how many switchers are there? What sunk Labour in Uxbridge was not people switching to the Tories, it was too few people switching to Labour. In London as a whole, as you say, Labour start with a big lead.
    Turnout was 42%. Differential turnout between those who have to fork out extra few £k for a car and those who don't will be huge before you get to anyone switching.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 5,905
    On the day the papers are headlining the terrible fires in Greece the UK government wants to water down its climate pledges !

  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,544
    Ratters said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    The word 'crisis ' has become a meaningless joke word.

    Should only be used to mean "turning point in a disease" like in the good old days.
    I don't think that's quite what the nothing to see here crew have in mind.
    Well, stranded holidaymakers is the kind of story that has been sensationalised for as long as I can remember, I guess linking it to global heating is what some people don't like? There definitely seems to be an increase in wildfires in the Mediterranean (and elsewhere) in recent years, and an increased likelihood of heatwaves. But to really hit the headlines it has to affect British holidaymakers.
    The unprecedented (in human memory) wave of forest fires around the globe of recent years is arguably a symptom of a climate inflection point - albeit one that's measured in years and decades, rather than days and weeks.

    In the particular case of Rhodes, has it ever had fires this large ?
    I think there will be a series of climate tipping points that will be observable over the next 50 years. A lot of these (forest fires, melting permafrost, glacial melting) will worsen global warming given the net emissions impact or reduction in the albedo effect.

    I also suspect that, absent major technological breakthroughs, the political will to push to net zero within democracies will fall short. The cost of certain aspects will just not be politically viable, particularly in the US.

    Politically, mass migration from the worst affected areas is the most predictable result of all of this.
    Humans were born into paradise. It is being transformed into hell in front of our eyes, the result of our rapacious greed and stupidity.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,454
    nico679 said:

    On the day the papers are headlining the terrible fires in Greece the UK government wants to water down its climate pledges !

    They'll be lucky to have water.

    I'd be very worried if I lived in some of the drier parts of south-eastern England, with population going up and **** all having been done about water conservation never mind gathering of late.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,420

    Eabhal said:

    Heathener said:

    This is a very good tip by @MikeSmithson by the way.

    Sadiq has made a huge error with ulez. However, I suspect it will blow over and that he will be re-elected.

    It ought to serve as a warning to Labour. It's during their third term in office that they will combine arrogance with fatigue.

    History repeats itself. Has to. No one listens.

    If you apply the Uxbridge swing to the London Mayoral contest, then Khan wins by the biggest margin in any London Mayoral contest.

    That’s the point. ULEZ may have allowed the Tories to hold on in Uxbridge, but there was still a substantial swing against them. The underlying unpopularity of the Conservatives is the bigger factor. Lay Hall.
    Or perhaps ULEZ was the reason for the massive swing 😉

    I don't know much about London politics, but in a city where 46% of households don't have access to a car at all, I can't see how this can become an issue for Khan without a hysterical misinformation campaign from CCHQ. 90% of those cars are ULEZ compliant, so we are talking about less than 5% of households.

    Car ownership is also strongly correlated with earnings and location. The people with cars are already likely to be voting Tory. You might find that non-ULEZ compliant cars are more likely to be owned by poorer drivers, but I'd guess this is still a very small number of possible labour voters.

    There are some recent stats that suggest cycling had now overtaken driving in parts of central London, so like with all Pigou taxes, ULEZ will become a smaller issue going forward.
    Outer London is different. In many suburbs, car usage isn’t optional. In addition, the assumption is that the next stage of ULEZ is coming. So it’s far more than the immediately effected drivers.

    The overall car taxation in London, on parking, congestion charge etc. is nothing if you can afford an EV. Otherwise you pay.
    Poorer drivers in outer London suburbs are not paying the congestion charge.
    I live inside the South Circular and work in central London, and I have never in my life paid the congestion charge.
    That’s because it has priced people out of driving into the centre. Unless you are in an EV. In which case, you roll in and park at a charging point.

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,551
    edited July 2023
    Scott_xP said:

    @JasonGroves1

    Foreign Office minister Andrew Mitchell sounding shaky on the future of the 2030 petrol car ban: ‘All I can tell you is that it’s in place… I can’t prophesy the future’

    Postponing the 2030 ban on new ICE cars is a bit like inflation, out of the control of government. If the manufacturers no longer make ICE cars we can no longer buy them. Unless in its lurch back to the 1950s the Government could reintroduce the half timbered Morris Minor alongside hanging.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,314

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    Eabhal said:

    Heathener said:

    This is a very good tip by @MikeSmithson by the way.

    Sadiq has made a huge error with ulez. However, I suspect it will blow over and that he will be re-elected.

    It ought to serve as a warning to Labour. It's during their third term in office that they will combine arrogance with fatigue.

    History repeats itself. Has to. No one listens.

    If you apply the Uxbridge swing to the London Mayoral contest, then Khan wins by the biggest margin in any London Mayoral contest.

    That’s the point. ULEZ may have allowed the Tories to hold on in Uxbridge, but there was still a substantial swing against them. The underlying unpopularity of the Conservatives is the bigger factor. Lay Hall.
    Or perhaps ULEZ was the reason for the massive swing 😉

    I don't know much about London politics, but in a city where 46% of households don't have access to a car at all, I can't see how this can become an issue for Khan without a hysterical misinformation campaign from CCHQ. 90% of those cars are ULEZ compliant, so we are talking about less than 5% of households.

    Car ownership is also strongly correlated with earnings and location. The people with cars are already likely to be voting Tory. You might find that non-ULEZ compliant cars are more likely to be owned by poorer drivers, but I'd guess this is still a very small number of possible labour voters.

    There are some recent stats that suggest cycling had now overtaken driving in parts of central London, so like with all Pigou taxes, ULEZ will become a smaller issue going forward.
    As sure as night follows day the pro ULEZ lobbyists are doing the rounds of the news studios expanding on the virtue of ULEZ and leading the fightback.

    Apparently Angela Rayner was saying, was misquoted as saying, ULEZ is coming everywhere. An interesting point of debate for the next election looms.

    I expect this to be the precursor of charging per mile as we move away from fuel duty on petrol.

    One of very few things that might rescue the Tories at the GE, would be a bunch of city dwellers from Labour pledging a full-on war on cars in the rest of the country.
    That would be very silly. The natural successors to fuel duty/VED are axle-load tax and congestion charging.
    I don't think congestion charging can raise remotely as much money as fuel duty.
    Fuel duty raises around £25bn per year, from around 40m vehicles. So an average of c.£50 per month per vehicle.

    In addition, VED raises around £6bn per year for cars, and about the same again for commercial vehicles.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,454

    Scott_xP said:

    @JasonGroves1

    Foreign Office minister Andrew Mitchell sounding shaky on the future of the 2030 petrol car ban: ‘All I can tell you is that it’s in place… I can’t prophesy the future’

    Postponing the 2030 ban on new ICE cars is a bit like inflation, out of the control of government. If the manufacturers no longer make ICE cars we can no longer buy them. Unless in its lurch back to the 1950s the Government could reintroduce the half timbered Morris Minor alongside hanging.
    And definitely with the original wooden trim. None of the new-fangled plastic substitute.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,454

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    The word 'crisis ' has become a meaningless joke word.

    Should only be used to mean "turning point in a disease" like in the good old days.
    I don't think that's quite what the nothing to see here crew have in mind.
    Well, stranded holidaymakers is the kind of story that has been sensationalised for as long as I can remember, I guess linking it to global heating is what some people don't like? There definitely seems to be an increase in wildfires in the Mediterranean (and elsewhere) in recent years, and an increased likelihood of heatwaves. But to really hit the headlines it has to affect British holidaymakers.
    With a special credit to TUI. It takes epic cynicism to keep flying holidaymakers into an inferno, with the aim of avoiding liability and refund.
    And lots of photos of young ladies and yummy mummies wearing very little to add to the human interest in the DM etc.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,420

    Scott_xP said:

    @JasonGroves1

    Foreign Office minister Andrew Mitchell sounding shaky on the future of the 2030 petrol car ban: ‘All I can tell you is that it’s in place… I can’t prophesy the future’

    Postponing the 2030 ban on new ICE cars is a bit like inflation, out of the control of government. If the manufacturers no longer make ICE cars we can no longer buy them. Unless in its lurch back to the 1950s the Government could reintroduce the half timbered Morris Minor alongside hanging.
    The German car manufacturers are demanding a delay. They screwed up the battery supply issue.

    So the EU may well delay. Which will then pose some interesting pressure on the next U.K. government. Especially if it wants to align with the EU.
This discussion has been closed.