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Could Jeremy Corbyn hand the Tories the London mayoralty next year? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,217
edited July 2023 in General
imageCould Jeremy Corbyn hand the Tories the London mayoralty next year? – politicalbetting.com

Jeremy Corbyn: I won’t rule out running for London mayor https://t.co/KiV6TQO46gThis is annoyingly a smart move if he does it. It's an elected role which is a straight run-off.. who gets more votes, which turns it into a bit of personal popularity contest. Ken won as indy..

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Comments

  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,136
    Thank God common sense seems to be breaking slowly through on Net Zero, ULEZ and other green crap anyway. I can see this being the big popular revolt of the 2020s, like leaving the EU was for the 2010s.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,437

    Fishing said:

    Thank God common sense seems to be breaking slowly through on Net Zero, ULEZ and other green crap anyway. I can see this being the big popular revolt of the 2020s, like leaving the EU was for the 2010s.

    Half of Europe is on fire and the other half is flooded according to the news, so maybe green crap is not quite dead.
    Especially if, as seems likely, the sort of people fleeing or cancelling their holidays are affluent and free of dependent children. The sort who make or influence policy.
  • Miklosvar said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Good grief. I’ve just seen the London weather forecast

    I think I’d rather be under drone attack in Odesa

    What's the weather like today in Odessa? And what colour is the boathouse in Hereford?
    In Odessa, Washington? Temp 84F, zero % rainfall chance, humidity 23%, wind 10 mph

    In Odessa, Ukraine = temp 77F, 3% chance of rainfall, humidity 79%, wind 9 mph

    As for Heerford boathouse, dingy
    Why are you still using Fahrenheit???
    Because otherwise I (and we) would NOT have a clue how hot (or not) it is!!!

    And WHY are YOU still weighing yourself in rocks, or whatever it is?
    It makes more sense to say 10 stones than 140 pounds.
    I don't agree at all.

    Saying someone has changed from 135 lbs to 145 lbs means quite clearly a 10lb change. It is clean and simple to understand.

    Stones don't add anything useful.
    And 9 stone 9 to 10 stone 9 would be quite clearly a 1 stone change. It is clean and simple to understand.

    If you are cherry picking examples you are losing.
    That's only clean and simple to understand because you eliminated one of your numbers by not varying it.

    What does 9 stone 9 to 10 stone 3 mean?

    Is it 0.4 of a stone? Is it 4 lbs?

    You have to convert away how many lbs are in a stone to make the change meaningful, which renders the entire point of using stones redundant.

    I can understand why some people still want to use cups instead of ml for measurements, or lbs instead of kg, but stone and lbs instead of kg? It serves no useful purpose that I can see.
  • Fishing said:

    Thank God common sense seems to be breaking slowly through on Net Zero, ULEZ and other green crap anyway. I can see this being the big popular revolt of the 2020s, like leaving the EU was for the 2010s.

    Half of Europe is on fire and the other half is flooded according to the news, so maybe green crap is not quite dead.
    Especially if, as seems likely, the sort of people fleeing or cancelling their holidays are affluent and free of dependent children. The sort who make or influence policy.
    You mean the sort who are jetsetting around the world and want to set policies that people can't drive their car to work?

    Yes, that seems to be the one thing everyone can agree on.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,437
    Corbyn should stand against Starmer; they currently represent neighbouring constituencies. Corbyn might even win; I suspect he has more of a personal following than his successor as Labour leader. And there is no risk of letting a Conservative into power.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,437

    Miklosvar said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Good grief. I’ve just seen the London weather forecast

    I think I’d rather be under drone attack in Odesa

    What's the weather like today in Odessa? And what colour is the boathouse in Hereford?
    In Odessa, Washington? Temp 84F, zero % rainfall chance, humidity 23%, wind 10 mph

    In Odessa, Ukraine = temp 77F, 3% chance of rainfall, humidity 79%, wind 9 mph

    As for Heerford boathouse, dingy
    Why are you still using Fahrenheit???
    Because otherwise I (and we) would NOT have a clue how hot (or not) it is!!!

    And WHY are YOU still weighing yourself in rocks, or whatever it is?
    It makes more sense to say 10 stones than 140 pounds.
    I don't agree at all.

    Saying someone has changed from 135 lbs to 145 lbs means quite clearly a 10lb change. It is clean and simple to understand.

    Stones don't add anything useful.
    And 9 stone 9 to 10 stone 9 would be quite clearly a 1 stone change. It is clean and simple to understand.

    If you are cherry picking examples you are losing.
    That's only clean and simple to understand because you eliminated one of your numbers by not varying it.

    What does 9 stone 9 to 10 stone 3 mean?

    Is it 0.4 of a stone? Is it 4 lbs?

    You have to convert away how many lbs are in a stone to make the change meaningful, which renders the entire point of using stones redundant.

    I can understand why some people still want to use cups instead of ml for measurements, or lbs instead of kg, but stone and lbs instead of kg? It serves no useful purpose that I can see.
    Stones and pounds are hard but people in betting shops up and down the land get their heads around it with horseracing. But since most bathroom scales now report weight in kilograms, that battle is lost and the people who set primary school maths exams will have to find other problems.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,437
    edited July 2023

    Fishing said:

    Thank God common sense seems to be breaking slowly through on Net Zero, ULEZ and other green crap anyway. I can see this being the big popular revolt of the 2020s, like leaving the EU was for the 2010s.

    Half of Europe is on fire and the other half is flooded according to the news, so maybe green crap is not quite dead.
    Especially if, as seems likely, the sort of people fleeing or cancelling their holidays are affluent and free of dependent children. The sort who make or influence policy.
    You mean the sort who are jetsetting around the world and want to set policies that people can't drive their car to work?

    Yes, that seems to be the one thing everyone can agree on.
    If there is any doubt that poshos set the agenda, have a look at this headline from today's Sunday Times front page.



    How European baristas and au pairs could return to Britain under government scheme
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/how-european-baristas-and-au-pairs-could-return-to-britain-under-government-scheme-8hxr92jl7 (£££)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,437
    Asda and Morrisons paid zero corporation tax last year after buyouts
    Debt-fuelled private equity structure cuts bill from £200m to nothing

    Private equity backed supermarkets Asda and Morrisons did not pay a penny of corporation tax last year, as new disclosures shed a light on how buyout firms minimise tax by loading their companies up with debt.

    In the decade before they were bought out by their current private equity owners, they paid an average of more than £200 million of corporation tax a year between them.

    But since their buyouts, their profits have been reduced to losses, mostly due to hefty interest payments on the new debts loaded onto their balance sheets. As corporation tax is only levied on profits, they pay nothing.

    Last year, Tesco and Sainsbury, who are more conventionally financed, paid corporation tax of £247 million and £120 million respectively.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/asda-and-morrisons-pay-zero-business-tax-wdgp9g88c (£££)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,437

    DJL's first rule of decoding newspaper headlines: if there's no name, it's a no-name. In this case the "rising star" "Tory toff" is (or was until last night) a local party official who lost when he stood for the council. In a rare display of Conservative efficiency, said local party has removed his biography from its web page (so you have to read the cached version).

    The silly boy should have waited till he was in the Cabinet and standing for party leader and Prime Minister before handing round the fun flour. Or icing sugar in the case of Boris.

    Tory rising star serves 'cocaine' to party guest on signed photograph of David Cameron
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-rising-star-serves-cocaine-30530393
  • Fishing said:

    Thank God common sense seems to be breaking slowly through on Net Zero, ULEZ and other green crap anyway. I can see this being the big popular revolt of the 2020s, like leaving the EU was for the 2010s.

    Is this irony?


  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,964
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: just looking through things now. Slightly surprised the official site doesn't have a grid, only qualifying results (the former includes any penalties).
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,964
    Betting Post
    F1: Hamilton's 4.4 to win. Backed that on Betfair, hedged at 1.5.

    https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2023/07/hungary-pre-race-2023.html
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,159
    A QTWTAIN, I think.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,159
    edited July 2023

    Corbyn should stand against Starmer; they currently represent neighbouring constituencies. Corbyn might even win; I suspect he has more of a personal following than his successor as Labour leader. And there is no risk of letting a Conservative into power.

    He works hard as a local MP, but I am not convinced he would win even his own seat. Very much of Labour support there nowadays comes from the educated wealthy of Islington, and they regard his later antics dimly, don’t have a particularly bad view of Starmer and are mostly focused on seeing the back of the Tories, to which voting for Corbo would be a distraction. Whereas the remaining poorer folk of the Borough, for whom he does most of his work, tend to be more transient and less likely to vote.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,498
    On Twitter (*), it appears that the 'Barbie' movie is upsetting the anti-Woke, self-declared alpha-male types.

    This reaction makes me want to see the film. Perhaps Barbie and Oppenheimer as a double bill? ;)
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,914

    On Twitter (*), it appears that the 'Barbie' movie is upsetting the anti-Woke, self-declared alpha-male types.

    This reaction makes me want to see the film. Perhaps Barbie and Oppenheimer as a double bill? ;)

    I thought Barbie was anti-woke, seeing as she was an invention of the patriarchy that presented an unobtainable ideal to young girls.

    Sometimes I think you have to make your own judgements, rather than relying on opposing everything your ideological enemies decide.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    South Africa taking the lead against Sweden in Wellington - be quite a shock if they won.

    Looks even rainier on the other side of the world than it is here in near-antipode Manchester.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,932

    On Twitter (*), it appears that the 'Barbie' movie is upsetting the anti-Woke, self-declared alpha-male types.

    This reaction makes me want to see the film. Perhaps Barbie and Oppenheimer as a double bill? ;)

    I thought Barbie was anti-woke, seeing as she was an invention of the patriarchy that presented an unobtainable ideal to young girls.

    Sometimes I think you have to make your own judgements, rather than relying on opposing everything your ideological enemies decide.
    The Barbie film presents that argument and is actually quite a thoughtful film.
    The rest of my family probably enjoyed it more than I did, but it was worthwhile.
    We're seeing Oppenheimer today, a double bill (Barbenheimer) in one day would be too much.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468
    Even if Comrade Jez splits the left vote, it's going to be hard for the Conservatives to take advantage.

    In 2021, Shaun Bailey got 35% in the first round. That was at peak Vaccine Hero Boris, and Bailey was a better candidate than Hall. (Who has already managed to pose for a stupid photo on the front page of the Standard and caused the Conservatives to complain to London's newspaper, which is never a wise thing to do.)

    We're not far off a scenario where the vote to the left of the Conservatives could be split into three equal portions and still come out ahead of Hall.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,975
    RobD said:

    On Twitter (*), it appears that the 'Barbie' movie is upsetting the anti-Woke, self-declared alpha-male types.

    This reaction makes me want to see the film. Perhaps Barbie and Oppenheimer as a double bill? ;)

    I’m waiting for the crossover movie where Barbie develops the first atomic bomb. That I might watch.
    Oppenheimer does contain a subtle indirect reference about Barbie.

    Okay it is Klaus Barbie.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769

    Even if Comrade Jez splits the left vote, it's going to be hard for the Conservatives to take advantage.

    In 2021, Shaun Bailey got 35% in the first round. That was at peak Vaccine Hero Boris, and Bailey was a better candidate than Hall. (Who has already managed to pose for a stupid photo on the front page of the Standard and caused the Conservatives to complain to London's newspaper, which is never a wise thing to do.)

    We're not far off a scenario where the vote to the left of the Conservatives could be split into three equal portions and still come out ahead of Hall.

    Now *that* would be funny.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,975
    I am disappointed in you all.

    I give you a thread on AV….
  • Fishing said:

    Thank God common sense seems to be breaking slowly through on Net Zero, ULEZ and other green crap anyway. I can see this being the big popular revolt of the 2020s, like leaving the EU was for the 2010s.

    So, what do you suggest is the common sense approach the Tories should take?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,491

    I am disappointed in you all.

    I give you a thread on AV….

    AV for all Mayoral/PCC elections would be a sensible move (obviously) and it might assuage PR enthusiasts within the Labour Party. It’s a zero cost policy. Still, Starmer’s ultra-cautious approach on everything means it probably won’t happen.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468

    I am disappointed in you all.

    I give you a thread on AV….

    AV for all Mayoral/PCC elections would be a sensible move (obviously) and it might assuage PR enthusiasts within the Labour Party. It’s a zero cost policy. Still, Starmer’s ultra-cautious approach on everything means it probably won’t happen.
    Starmer is going to have to throw some red meat radicalism out, and it will need to be things that don't cost money. Which does point to constitutional stuff.

    Alternatively, if consistency of voting system is so important to the Conservatives, scrap the proportional top-up seats in the London Assembly.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,031
    Please stand Jeremy, a split vote going against Khan would be hillarious.

    That said, the Tories should have found a better candidate - where’s their Londoner Andy Street?
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    edited July 2023
    Fishing said:

    Thank God common sense seems to be breaking slowly through on Net Zero, ULEZ and other green crap anyway. I can see this being the big popular revolt of the 2020s, like leaving the EU was for the 2010s.

    The problem is that green policies usually attack poor people whilst the rich can profit from them. Try and make the rich pay and they will find an excuse not to. So the poor are entitled to their revolt.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215

    Fishing said:

    Thank God common sense seems to be breaking slowly through on Net Zero, ULEZ and other green crap anyway. I can see this being the big popular revolt of the 2020s, like leaving the EU was for the 2010s.

    So, what do you suggest is the common sense approach the Tories should take?
    The “common sense approach” a lot of the poujadiste right seem to want on environmental policy is consistent with what they want on European policy and foreign
    policy: for the UK to check out of international affairs and let the big boys - USA, Europe and China - take the lead.

    On green crap that means sitting back and letting Biden and the EU take all the net zero investment while we sweat our old assets.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,031
    Funny story of the morning - the organisers of the women’s football tournament in Australia decided to do a drone show instead of fireworks, in the harbour in Melbourne. Except that of the 500 drones, 350 didn’t come back and went swimming in the Yarra.

    https://idle.slashdot.org/story/23/07/22/2147205/hundreds-of-drones-crash-into-river-during-display
    https://youtube.com/watch?t=49&v=kxFwMQs6-Pg :D
  • MoanRMoanR Posts: 24
    Fishing said:

    Thank God common sense seems to be breaking slowly through on Net Zero, ULEZ and other green crap anyway. I can see this being the big popular revolt of the 2020s, like leaving the EU was for the 2010s.

    So just ignore the health problems caused by poor air quality?
    How many times have you been hospitalized with breathing problems?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215
    darkage said:

    Fishing said:

    Thank God common sense seems to be breaking slowly through on Net Zero, ULEZ and other green crap anyway. I can see this being the big popular revolt of the 2020s, like leaving the EU was for the 2010s.

    The morally inexcusable problem is that green policies usually attack poor people whilst the rich can profit from them. Try and make the rich pay and they will find an excuse not to. So the poor are entitled to their revolt.
    There’s zero evidence “the poor” are rebelling on environmental policy. Most of them are crying out for us in the rich West to stop faffing and actually do something. Almost always the poorest families suffer most from air pollution, habitat destruction and climate change.

    One thing the poor here in Britain are of course being punished by is our over dependence on fossil fuels and poorly
    insulated housing stock. The transformation of our energy market can only help there.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393
    edited July 2023
    RobD said:

    On Twitter (*), it appears that the 'Barbie' movie is upsetting the anti-Woke, self-declared alpha-male types.

    This reaction makes me want to see the film. Perhaps Barbie and Oppenheimer as a double bill? ;)

    I’m waiting for the crossover movie where Barbie develops the first atomic bomb. That I might watch.
    Wrong sort of crossover. The one I'd like to see made is when Barbie goes trans. Now that would upset our wokefinders.

    Personally, I wouldn't watch it even with a welder's mask (to cope with the pink-out). But it does seem to be visually meticulously executed.

    Edit: didn't Ken and Barbie dolls have a suspicious lack of nether detail anyway?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156

    Even if Comrade Jez splits the left vote, it's going to be hard for the Conservatives to take advantage.

    In 2021, Shaun Bailey got 35% in the first round. That was at peak Vaccine Hero Boris, and Bailey was a better candidate than Hall. (Who has already managed to pose for a stupid photo on the front page of the Standard and caused the Conservatives to complain to London's newspaper, which is never a wise thing to do.)

    We're not far off a scenario where the vote to the left of the Conservatives could be split into three equal portions and still come out ahead of Hall.

    Not sure that is right. Bailey was 4.7% behind. Corbyn will win a lot more than 5% if he stands, I would guess 15-20% most likely. That feels like enough to allow the Tories to win if they get around 30% to me. Sounds plausible.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215

    Have to give the Tories some credit on ULEZ> Crated by Johnson, imposed on outer boroughs by Shapps as part of the TFL rescue deal, yet is being spun by them as "typically socialist".

    Yes, they’re geniuses at that sort of thing. Almost as impressive as the reinventions that give us a rebellion and a wholly new Tory government every couple of years, with most of the same cabinet ministers.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393

    Fishing said:

    Thank God common sense seems to be breaking slowly through on Net Zero, ULEZ and other green crap anyway. I can see this being the big popular revolt of the 2020s, like leaving the EU was for the 2010s.

    Half of Europe is on fire and the other half is flooded according to the news, so maybe green crap is not quite dead.
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/22/green-pledges-sunak-starmer-byelections

    Not your average "nutters" ((c) antiwokists), those folk warning Messrs Sunak and Starmer.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215
    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    On Twitter (*), it appears that the 'Barbie' movie is upsetting the anti-Woke, self-declared alpha-male types.

    This reaction makes me want to see the film. Perhaps Barbie and Oppenheimer as a double bill? ;)

    I’m waiting for the crossover movie where Barbie develops the first atomic bomb. That I might watch.
    Wrong sort of crossover. The one I'd like to see made is when Barbie goes trans. Now that would upset our wokefinders.

    Personally, I wouldn't watch it even with a welder's mask (to cope with the pink-out). But it does seem to be visually meticulously executed.

    Edit: didn't Ken and Barbie dolls have a suspicious lack of nether detail anyway?
    That is indeed commented on multiple times in the film. It’s a good, amusing movie. Like a cross between legally blonde and Lazy Town.

    It is also literally and avowedly about the patriarchy. The plot revolves around Ken trying to create a patriarchy (with horses) in Barbie land.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156

    Have to give the Tories some credit on ULEZ> Crated by Johnson, imposed on outer boroughs by Shapps as part of the TFL rescue deal, yet is being spun by them as "typically socialist".

    When it is actually fiscally regressive, and of course the Revolutionary Communists are sharing the Conservative party with the kippers. Makes my head hurt......
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,437
    Sandpit said:

    Please stand Jeremy, a split vote going against Khan would be hillarious.

    That said, the Tories should have found a better candidate - where’s their Londoner Andy Street?

    The Conservatives did find a better candidate for London Mayor. His name is Daniel Korski, a Cameroon-era SpAd and tech entrepreneur who hates cash (the issue du jour for some PBers) but he withdrew after groping allegations. And since the selection process had been rigged in Korski's favour by shortlisting him and two unacceptable candidates, well, that's how we got here.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Korski
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215

    Even if Comrade Jez splits the left vote, it's going to be hard for the Conservatives to take advantage.

    In 2021, Shaun Bailey got 35% in the first round. That was at peak Vaccine Hero Boris, and Bailey was a better candidate than Hall. (Who has already managed to pose for a stupid photo on the front page of the Standard and caused the Conservatives to complain to London's newspaper, which is never a wise thing to do.)

    We're not far off a scenario where the vote to the left of the Conservatives could be split into three equal portions and still come out ahead of Hall.

    Not sure that is right. Bailey was 4.7% behind. Corbyn will win a lot more than 5% if he stands, I would guess 15-20% most likely. That feels like enough to allow the Tories to win if they get around 30% to me. Sounds plausible.
    I don’t think the Tories will get 30% in the mayoral when they’re on less than that nationally.

    Uxbridge (a 6.7% swing to Labour by the way) has gone to everyone’s heads.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156

    Asda and Morrisons paid zero corporation tax last year after buyouts
    Debt-fuelled private equity structure cuts bill from £200m to nothing

    Private equity backed supermarkets Asda and Morrisons did not pay a penny of corporation tax last year, as new disclosures shed a light on how buyout firms minimise tax by loading their companies up with debt.

    In the decade before they were bought out by their current private equity owners, they paid an average of more than £200 million of corporation tax a year between them.

    But since their buyouts, their profits have been reduced to losses, mostly due to hefty interest payments on the new debts loaded onto their balance sheets. As corporation tax is only levied on profits, they pay nothing.

    Last year, Tesco and Sainsbury, who are more conventionally financed, paid corporation tax of £247 million and £120 million respectively.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/asda-and-morrisons-pay-zero-business-tax-wdgp9g88c (£££)

    Will these investors start to suffer real losses with the return to normal interest rates perhaps.....
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393
    TimS said:

    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    On Twitter (*), it appears that the 'Barbie' movie is upsetting the anti-Woke, self-declared alpha-male types.

    This reaction makes me want to see the film. Perhaps Barbie and Oppenheimer as a double bill? ;)

    I’m waiting for the crossover movie where Barbie develops the first atomic bomb. That I might watch.
    Wrong sort of crossover. The one I'd like to see made is when Barbie goes trans. Now that would upset our wokefinders.

    Personally, I wouldn't watch it even with a welder's mask (to cope with the pink-out). But it does seem to be visually meticulously executed.

    Edit: didn't Ken and Barbie dolls have a suspicious lack of nether detail anyway?
    That is indeed commented on multiple times in the film. It’s a good, amusing movie. Like a cross between legally blonde and Lazy Town.

    It is also literally and avowedly about the patriarchy. The plot revolves around Ken trying to create a patriarchy (with horses) in Barbie land.
    I did see the trailer, the one which included the little girls with baby dolls and the allusion to Kubrick's work - very nicely done.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156
    edited July 2023
    TimS said:

    Even if Comrade Jez splits the left vote, it's going to be hard for the Conservatives to take advantage.

    In 2021, Shaun Bailey got 35% in the first round. That was at peak Vaccine Hero Boris, and Bailey was a better candidate than Hall. (Who has already managed to pose for a stupid photo on the front page of the Standard and caused the Conservatives to complain to London's newspaper, which is never a wise thing to do.)

    We're not far off a scenario where the vote to the left of the Conservatives could be split into three equal portions and still come out ahead of Hall.

    Not sure that is right. Bailey was 4.7% behind. Corbyn will win a lot more than 5% if he stands, I would guess 15-20% most likely. That feels like enough to allow the Tories to win if they get around 30% to me. Sounds plausible.
    I don’t think the Tories will get 30% in the mayoral when they’re on less than that nationally.

    Uxbridge (a 6.7% swing to Labour by the way) has gone to everyone’s heads.
    The economy is bad and people feel like there is no solution and one party has been in power a long time. Nationally that is a disaster for the Tories. In London, some blame the Tories (fairly) others blame the Mayor (unfairly), so less so.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215
    Pretty bleak forecast for Old Trafford.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    TimS said:

    Pretty bleak forecast for Old Trafford.

    TWO showing minimal to no rain from 2pm. Draw is around 1.5 and probably value but I think I will leave it
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,031
    Keir and Sadiq falling out?

    Sir Keir Starmer has said that Labour must “face up” to the electoral damage caused by the Ultra-Low Emission Zone (Ulez) in London.

    “Speaking at Labour’s National Policy Forum in Nottingham on Saturday, he went further than ever in his criticism of Sadiq Khan’s expansion of Ulez to outer London, saying the party was “doing something very wrong” if its policies “end up on each and every Tory leaflet”.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/07/22/keir-starme-labour-face-electoral-damage-ulez/
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,031
    TimS said:

    Pretty bleak forecast for Old Trafford.

    We only need five balls!
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468
    Sandpit said:

    Please stand Jeremy, a split vote going against Khan would be hillarious.

    That said, the Tories should have found a better candidate - where’s their Londoner Andy Street?

    There isn't one, as far as I can see.

    All the things about this version of the Conservative party- older, home owing, graduate light, pro car, pro Brexit- go against the trends in London.

    The Uxbridge success was real, but it was also a vote against the reality of what most Londoners want. It has traction in a few bits on the fringe, but that's not enough.

    Rory Stewart might have pulled it off, but he and the party have just moved too far apart.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393
    Sandpit said:

    TimS said:

    Pretty bleak forecast for Old Trafford.

    We only need five balls!
    Unless water polo is within the rules of cricket ...
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972

    TimS said:

    Even if Comrade Jez splits the left vote, it's going to be hard for the Conservatives to take advantage.

    In 2021, Shaun Bailey got 35% in the first round. That was at peak Vaccine Hero Boris, and Bailey was a better candidate than Hall. (Who has already managed to pose for a stupid photo on the front page of the Standard and caused the Conservatives to complain to London's newspaper, which is never a wise thing to do.)

    We're not far off a scenario where the vote to the left of the Conservatives could be split into three equal portions and still come out ahead of Hall.

    Not sure that is right. Bailey was 4.7% behind. Corbyn will win a lot more than 5% if he stands, I would guess 15-20% most likely. That feels like enough to allow the Tories to win if they get around 30% to me. Sounds plausible.
    I don’t think the Tories will get 30% in the mayoral when they’re on less than that nationally.

    Uxbridge (a 6.7% swing to Labour by the way) has gone to everyone’s heads.
    The economy is bad and people feel like there is no solution and one party has been in power a long time. Nationally that is a disaster for the Tories. In London, some blame the Tories (fairly) others blame the Mayor (unfairly), so less so.
    Khan is a bit shit. He is taking all of the blame for ULEZ, yet the decision to impose it was made by Shapps Green. So he should have been banging that particular drum hard. Instead he's taking the blame.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,240
    In other news, last day of the Tour de France today. It’s been an absolutely vintage race -one of the best for years. Real competition for the yellow jersey, some very closely fought stages, and even the emergence of a pantomime villain in the last few days in Jasper Philipsen. Just a shame Mark Cavendish crashed out and won’t be there to contest the stage win on the Champs today.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Sandpit said:

    Keir and Sadiq falling out?

    Sir Keir Starmer has said that Labour must “face up” to the electoral damage caused by the Ultra-Low Emission Zone (Ulez) in London.

    “Speaking at Labour’s National Policy Forum in Nottingham on Saturday, he went further than ever in his criticism of Sadiq Khan’s expansion of Ulez to outer London, saying the party was “doing something very wrong” if its policies “end up on each and every Tory leaflet”.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/07/22/keir-starme-labour-face-electoral-damage-ulez/

    SKS bears the impression of the last arse that sat on him. This was a one off protest vote. The ulez will have expanded before the GE, downsizing it will be in nobody's manifesto, and its a GE not a BE.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,932
    TimS said:

    Fishing said:

    Thank God common sense seems to be breaking slowly through on Net Zero, ULEZ and other green crap anyway. I can see this being the big popular revolt of the 2020s, like leaving the EU was for the 2010s.

    So, what do you suggest is the common sense approach the Tories should take?
    The “common sense approach” a lot of the poujadiste right seem to want on environmental policy is consistent with what they want on European policy and foreign
    policy: for the UK to check out of international affairs and let the big boys - USA, Europe and China - take the lead.

    On green crap that means sitting back and letting Biden and the EU take all the net zero investment while we sweat our old assets.
    If the Tories take the wrong lesson from the Uxbridge by-election and pivot against Net Zero and go all anti-woke, they will doom themselves to a greater wipeout than what is coming already. They will become our version of the US Republican Party. Donors are backing away from the Republicans and the same thing will happen to the Tories unless they move back to the centre ground. They should accept their losses next year and avoid actions that would kill their recovery after the election.
    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/trump-s-antics-are-costing-republicans-money-and-donors/ss-AA1e0Hpx?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=c08b228a32d04425beb62e0d59a11ec2&ei=56#image=18
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,031

    In other news, last day of the Tour de France today. It’s been an absolutely vintage race -one of the best for years. Real competition for the yellow jersey, some very closely fought stages, and even the emergence of a pantomime villain in the last few days in Jasper Philipsen. Just a shame Mark Cavendish crashed out and won’t be there to contest the stage win on the Champs today.

    So we have the TdF, the F1, the golf, and hopefullly the cricket, all on this afternoon.

    Yet @TSE thinks we have time for an AV thread? ;)
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972
    Meanwhile in ABC news:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/23/ed-davey-tactical-voting-can-lock-tories-out-of-power-for-a-generation

    Davey couldn't be clearer - the opposition is the Conservative Party. I do not expect any formal deals nor will one be needed. Labour will be able to rely on LibDem, Green, Alliance, even SNP votes once in government.

    They won't follow a whip or vote for everything. But the agenda is very clear - keep the Tories out of power for a generation. So when some idiots suggest that a seat going Tory > LD doesn't help Labour, they are deluded. Same with Con > SNP.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156

    TimS said:

    Even if Comrade Jez splits the left vote, it's going to be hard for the Conservatives to take advantage.

    In 2021, Shaun Bailey got 35% in the first round. That was at peak Vaccine Hero Boris, and Bailey was a better candidate than Hall. (Who has already managed to pose for a stupid photo on the front page of the Standard and caused the Conservatives to complain to London's newspaper, which is never a wise thing to do.)

    We're not far off a scenario where the vote to the left of the Conservatives could be split into three equal portions and still come out ahead of Hall.

    Not sure that is right. Bailey was 4.7% behind. Corbyn will win a lot more than 5% if he stands, I would guess 15-20% most likely. That feels like enough to allow the Tories to win if they get around 30% to me. Sounds plausible.
    I don’t think the Tories will get 30% in the mayoral when they’re on less than that nationally.

    Uxbridge (a 6.7% swing to Labour by the way) has gone to everyone’s heads.
    The economy is bad and people feel like there is no solution and one party has been in power a long time. Nationally that is a disaster for the Tories. In London, some blame the Tories (fairly) others blame the Mayor (unfairly), so less so.
    Khan is a bit shit. He is taking all of the blame for ULEZ, yet the decision to impose it was made by Shapps Green. So he should have been banging that particular drum hard. Instead he's taking the blame.
    Not sure that works. He can't champion ULEZ at the same time as say, not my fault, blame the Tories for it.

    His mistakes are around implementation, leaving it fiscally regressive, and a lack of listening, persuasion and compromise, three characteristics that are sorely missing from contemporary UK politics across the board.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    In other news, last day of the Tour de France today. It’s been an absolutely vintage race -one of the best for years. Real competition for the yellow jersey, some very closely fought stages, and even the emergence of a pantomime villain in the last few days in Jasper Philipsen. Just a shame Mark Cavendish crashed out and won’t be there to contest the stage win on the Champs today.

    And balls out insinuations of le dopage, it's like the old days
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,079

    Meanwhile in ABC news:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/23/ed-davey-tactical-voting-can-lock-tories-out-of-power-for-a-generation

    Davey couldn't be clearer - the opposition is the Conservative Party. I do not expect any formal deals nor will one be needed. Labour will be able to rely on LibDem, Green, Alliance, even SNP votes once in government.

    They won't follow a whip or vote for everything. But the agenda is very clear - keep the Tories out of power for a generation. So when some idiots suggest that a seat going Tory > LD doesn't help Labour, they are deluded. Same with Con > SNP.

    But the clearer he is about this, the harder attracting con-LD switchers becomes.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,159
    edited July 2023
    Today’s Sunday Rawnsley, arriving via a bright but drizzly morning on my island near the Arctic Circle:

    Most people assume [Starmer] will win the general election, but we have just seen that the path to power is strewn with trip hazards and Labour stumbled over one of them in Uxbridge.

    ..both these byelections demonstrated, as did the local elections in May, that explicit collaboration between the opposition parties isn’t required to get anti-Tory voters to mobilise behind the anti-Tory candidate who is best-placed to win.

    Sir Keir had to scrap his plans to do a victory lap in west London while the prime minister hurried to the seat to proclaim that this proved that a Tory defeat at the general election was “not a done deal”. It has given the Conservatives a scrap of hope and left Labour with some crucial lessons to learn.

    Tory campaign literature suggested that everyone in Uxbridge, not the minority with the dirtiest vehicles, would be paying £12.50 a day to drive. “We had people with a Tesla in the driveway saying it was outrageous that they would have to pay,” reports one Labour campaigner. Labour flailed around when it should have crafted a robust response. Rather than take on the Tory attack, the Labour candidate suggested that the Ulez expansion should be halted, a timorous response which essentially endorsed his opponent’s position.

    “Their byelection machine was not so smart,” says a Lib Dem campaigner. “When the Tories come at you, you have to punch back and punch hard. They could have fought the Ulez thing.”

    There’s another cause for some Labour disquiet. We know that public alienation from the Conservatives runs deep, but there is still not that much enthusiasm for Sir Keir’s party. Between here and election day, Labour has to convince people that it will be both a responsible government and one that delivers change. It is a tricky balancing act, but if you can’t ride two horses at once, you shouldn’t be in the circus.

  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972

    TimS said:

    Even if Comrade Jez splits the left vote, it's going to be hard for the Conservatives to take advantage.

    In 2021, Shaun Bailey got 35% in the first round. That was at peak Vaccine Hero Boris, and Bailey was a better candidate than Hall. (Who has already managed to pose for a stupid photo on the front page of the Standard and caused the Conservatives to complain to London's newspaper, which is never a wise thing to do.)

    We're not far off a scenario where the vote to the left of the Conservatives could be split into three equal portions and still come out ahead of Hall.

    Not sure that is right. Bailey was 4.7% behind. Corbyn will win a lot more than 5% if he stands, I would guess 15-20% most likely. That feels like enough to allow the Tories to win if they get around 30% to me. Sounds plausible.
    I don’t think the Tories will get 30% in the mayoral when they’re on less than that nationally.

    Uxbridge (a 6.7% swing to Labour by the way) has gone to everyone’s heads.
    The economy is bad and people feel like there is no solution and one party has been in power a long time. Nationally that is a disaster for the Tories. In London, some blame the Tories (fairly) others blame the Mayor (unfairly), so less so.
    Khan is a bit shit. He is taking all of the blame for ULEZ, yet the decision to impose it was made by Shapps Green. So he should have been banging that particular drum hard. Instead he's taking the blame.
    Not sure that works. He can't champion ULEZ at the same time as say, not my fault, blame the Tories for it.

    His mistakes are around implementation, leaving it fiscally regressive, and a lack of listening, persuasion and compromise, three characteristics that are sorely missing from contemporary UK politics across the board.
    When you look at the requirements of the later TfL bailouts, "fiscally regressive" is all he can do. There was a requirement to raise an impossible amount of cash.

    As you say, the problem is that he is championing the thing, because not to do so makes him look like he isn't wholly in charge. This is crazy - he is a city mayor, of course he isn't wholly in charge.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173

    Fishing said:

    Thank God common sense seems to be breaking slowly through on Net Zero, ULEZ and other green crap anyway. I can see this being the big popular revolt of the 2020s, like leaving the EU was for the 2010s.

    Half of Europe is on fire and the other half is flooded according to the news, so maybe green crap is not quite dea.d.
    Tells you everything about how crap the news is and sfs about weather and climate
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,159
    Sandpit said:

    TimS said:

    Pretty bleak forecast for Old Trafford.

    We only need five balls!
    That would certainly puzzle the batsman, but seems a bit underhand.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972
    Cookie said:

    Meanwhile in ABC news:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/23/ed-davey-tactical-voting-can-lock-tories-out-of-power-for-a-generation

    Davey couldn't be clearer - the opposition is the Conservative Party. I do not expect any formal deals nor will one be needed. Labour will be able to rely on LibDem, Green, Alliance, even SNP votes once in government.

    They won't follow a whip or vote for everything. But the agenda is very clear - keep the Tories out of power for a generation. So when some idiots suggest that a seat going Tory > LD doesn't help Labour, they are deluded. Same with Con > SNP.

    But the clearer he is about this, the harder attracting con-LD switchers becomes.
    Why? Conservative voters want to vote for the sensible party. They know the Tories have gone frootloop which is why they're so keen to vote against them in cast numbers.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156

    TimS said:

    Even if Comrade Jez splits the left vote, it's going to be hard for the Conservatives to take advantage.

    In 2021, Shaun Bailey got 35% in the first round. That was at peak Vaccine Hero Boris, and Bailey was a better candidate than Hall. (Who has already managed to pose for a stupid photo on the front page of the Standard and caused the Conservatives to complain to London's newspaper, which is never a wise thing to do.)

    We're not far off a scenario where the vote to the left of the Conservatives could be split into three equal portions and still come out ahead of Hall.

    Not sure that is right. Bailey was 4.7% behind. Corbyn will win a lot more than 5% if he stands, I would guess 15-20% most likely. That feels like enough to allow the Tories to win if they get around 30% to me. Sounds plausible.
    I don’t think the Tories will get 30% in the mayoral when they’re on less than that nationally.

    Uxbridge (a 6.7% swing to Labour by the way) has gone to everyone’s heads.
    The economy is bad and people feel like there is no solution and one party has been in power a long time. Nationally that is a disaster for the Tories. In London, some blame the Tories (fairly) others blame the Mayor (unfairly), so less so.
    Khan is a bit shit. He is taking all of the blame for ULEZ, yet the decision to impose it was made by Shapps Green. So he should have been banging that particular drum hard. Instead he's taking the blame.
    Not sure that works. He can't champion ULEZ at the same time as say, not my fault, blame the Tories for it.

    His mistakes are around implementation, leaving it fiscally regressive, and a lack of listening, persuasion and compromise, three characteristics that are sorely missing from contemporary UK politics across the board.
    When you look at the requirements of the later TfL bailouts, "fiscally regressive" is all he can do. There was a requirement to raise an impossible amount of cash.

    As you say, the problem is that he is championing the thing, because not to do so makes him look like he isn't wholly in charge. This is crazy - he is a city mayor, of course he isn't wholly in charge.
    £250m in outstanding fines vs £25m paid out in scrappage scheme. I think there is room to have closed the gap between those two and recycled the fine money into scrappage. It might be as simple as lowering the fines and people might actually bother to pay them......
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,159
    edited July 2023
    Cookie said:

    Meanwhile in ABC news:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/23/ed-davey-tactical-voting-can-lock-tories-out-of-power-for-a-generation

    Davey couldn't be clearer - the opposition is the Conservative Party. I do not expect any formal deals nor will one be needed. Labour will be able to rely on LibDem, Green, Alliance, even SNP votes once in government.

    They won't follow a whip or vote for everything. But the agenda is very clear - keep the Tories out of power for a generation. So when some idiots suggest that a seat going Tory > LD doesn't help Labour, they are deluded. Same with Con > SNP.

    But the clearer he is about this, the harder attracting con-LD switchers becomes.
    Not really. Anyone who isn’t contemplating switching from the Tories now isn’t a switcher (HY says ‘hi!’), and anyone who is, won’t be that worried by a Starmer government as an alternative to the current s***show.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215
    Proper knife edge this morning


  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468

    Cookie said:

    Meanwhile in ABC news:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/23/ed-davey-tactical-voting-can-lock-tories-out-of-power-for-a-generation

    Davey couldn't be clearer - the opposition is the Conservative Party. I do not expect any formal deals nor will one be needed. Labour will be able to rely on LibDem, Green, Alliance, even SNP votes once in government.

    They won't follow a whip or vote for everything. But the agenda is very clear - keep the Tories out of power for a generation. So when some idiots suggest that a seat going Tory > LD doesn't help Labour, they are deluded. Same with Con > SNP.

    But the clearer he is about this, the harder attracting con-LD switchers becomes.
    Why? Conservative voters want to vote for the sensible party. They know the Tories have gone frootloop which is why they're so keen to vote against them in cast numbers.
    It makes it harder to attract more voters who are currently voting Conservative. But the Conservatives are down to nearly the hardest of hard core voters.

    Getting LibLab voters (including exasperated Tory wets) to arrange themselves efficiently is almost certainly more fruitful as a strategy to get seats.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,778
    edited July 2023

    the emergence of a pantomime villain in the last few days in Jasper Philipsen.

    JP did nothing wrong and was entitled to control the breakaway within the rules of the sport. It's probably symptomatic of the disappearance of the patron in the peleton. That figure would impose discipline on the unwritten laws and what has been agreed between the capos at the start of the day. There's hasn't really been once since Cancellera (maybe Valverde for a while) and we're probably in the post-patron era now.

    The sport is obviously as dirty as it's ever been and that should be celebrated as part of its unique sporting culture.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972

    Cookie said:

    Meanwhile in ABC news:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/23/ed-davey-tactical-voting-can-lock-tories-out-of-power-for-a-generation

    Davey couldn't be clearer - the opposition is the Conservative Party. I do not expect any formal deals nor will one be needed. Labour will be able to rely on LibDem, Green, Alliance, even SNP votes once in government.

    They won't follow a whip or vote for everything. But the agenda is very clear - keep the Tories out of power for a generation. So when some idiots suggest that a seat going Tory > LD doesn't help Labour, they are deluded. Same with Con > SNP.

    But the clearer he is about this, the harder attracting con-LD switchers becomes.
    Why? Conservative voters want to vote for the sensible party. They know the Tories have gone frootloop which is why they're so keen to vote against them in cast numbers.
    It makes it harder to attract more voters who are currently voting Conservative. But the Conservatives are down to nearly the hardest of hard core voters.

    Getting LibLab voters (including exasperated Tory wets) to arrange themselves efficiently is almost certainly more fruitful as a strategy to get seats.
    Yes, and the ABC vote appears to be extremely efficient, at least on the current boundaries,
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    felix said:

    Fishing said:

    Thank God common sense seems to be breaking slowly through on Net Zero, ULEZ and other green crap anyway. I can see this being the big popular revolt of the 2020s, like leaving the EU was for the 2010s.

    Half of Europe is on fire and the other half is flooded according to the news, so maybe green crap is not quite dea.d.
    Tells you everything about how crap the news is and sfs about weather and climate
    Are you saying that the whole of Rhodes catches fire every year and reporting it is just a passing fad? Are you not amazed by the photograph here, in peacetime Europe?

    https://www.theguardian.com/weather/2023/jul/22/more-than-1000-people-forced-to-flee-wildfires-on-greek-island-of-rhodes
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,159
    TimS said:

    Proper knife edge this morning


    Thankfully the jet stream is far enough south that your crap weather is heading to Denmark when you’re all done with it. Up here it’s calm, grey and damp, as usual (although Norwegians do keep going on about how good this year’s weather is, nevertheless).
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,031
    TimS said:

    Proper knife edge this morning

    img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5020679/uploads/editor/p8/hlrkrjqd3l5y.jpeg" alt="" />

    Ooh, that’s close.

    Come on the weather, give us a couple of hours of play again.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393
    edited July 2023
    I was reading that. One unexpected message is that it looks as if political fixation on a small sector of the fishing industry (large pelagic ships, esp. related to Scottish Tory Party constituencies) might have led to screwing the other fisherfolk - this sector of the demersal (?) industry as well as the inshore shellfish/crusty fishers.

    Edit. I don't know why I said 'unexpected'. Should know better by now.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,437

    TimS said:

    Even if Comrade Jez splits the left vote, it's going to be hard for the Conservatives to take advantage.

    In 2021, Shaun Bailey got 35% in the first round. That was at peak Vaccine Hero Boris, and Bailey was a better candidate than Hall. (Who has already managed to pose for a stupid photo on the front page of the Standard and caused the Conservatives to complain to London's newspaper, which is never a wise thing to do.)

    We're not far off a scenario where the vote to the left of the Conservatives could be split into three equal portions and still come out ahead of Hall.

    Not sure that is right. Bailey was 4.7% behind. Corbyn will win a lot more than 5% if he stands, I would guess 15-20% most likely. That feels like enough to allow the Tories to win if they get around 30% to me. Sounds plausible.
    I don’t think the Tories will get 30% in the mayoral when they’re on less than that nationally.

    Uxbridge (a 6.7% swing to Labour by the way) has gone to everyone’s heads.
    The economy is bad and people feel like there is no solution and one party has been in power a long time. Nationally that is a disaster for the Tories. In London, some blame the Tories (fairly) others blame the Mayor (unfairly), so less so.
    Khan is a bit shit. He is taking all of the blame for ULEZ, yet the decision to impose it was made by Shapps Green. So he should have been banging that particular drum hard. Instead he's taking the blame.
    Not sure that works. He can't champion ULEZ at the same time as say, not my fault, blame the Tories for it.

    His mistakes are around implementation, leaving it fiscally regressive, and a lack of listening, persuasion and compromise, three characteristics that are sorely missing from contemporary UK politics across the board.
    No to both. The mistakes lay with the muppet running Labour's Uxbridge campaign who decided not to counter Tories telling voters they'd all have to pay, when in fact most vehicles are exempt. Years ago John Prescott complained about this idea, then presumably due to Mandelson and/or Campbell, that you must never refute your opponent's charges because that is letting the Tories "set the agenda". Well, great unless it means losing an election.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,165
    edited July 2023
    Miklosvar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Keir and Sadiq falling out?

    Sir Keir Starmer has said that Labour must “face up” to the electoral damage caused by the Ultra-Low Emission Zone (Ulez) in London.

    “Speaking at Labour’s National Policy Forum in Nottingham on Saturday, he went further than ever in his criticism of Sadiq Khan’s expansion of Ulez to outer London, saying the party was “doing something very wrong” if its policies “end up on each and every Tory leaflet”.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/07/22/keir-starme-labour-face-electoral-damage-ulez/

    SKS bears the impression of the last arse that sat on him. This was a one off protest vote. The ulez will have expanded before the GE, downsizing it will be in nobody's manifesto, and its a GE not a BE.
    The National aims a boot at the featureless plastic area where Starmer’s balls should be. Almost Private Eye-esque.


  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156
    Miklosvar said:

    felix said:

    Fishing said:

    Thank God common sense seems to be breaking slowly through on Net Zero, ULEZ and other green crap anyway. I can see this being the big popular revolt of the 2020s, like leaving the EU was for the 2010s.

    Half of Europe is on fire and the other half is flooded according to the news, so maybe green crap is not quite dea.d.
    Tells you everything about how crap the news is and sfs about weather and climate
    Are you saying that the whole of Rhodes catches fire every year and reporting it is just a passing fad? Are you not amazed by the photograph here, in peacetime Europe?

    https://www.theguardian.com/weather/2023/jul/22/more-than-1000-people-forced-to-flee-wildfires-on-greek-island-of-rhodes
    Buy up properties in Blackpool, Yarmouth and Scarborough. The Santorinis and Sorrentos of the 2050s......
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,778
    I once led a boarding party on a North Sea trawler as a pink cheeked Sub Lt. It seemed like the most squalid and uncomfortable way possible to go to sea with more than half the crew being more than half drunk at 1pm.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,778

    Corbyn is 74. He should retire gracefully, and fill his time tending his allotment, making the perfect jam, and contributing to PB.
    Sorted.

    Moscow Centre has been in touch via dead drop on the Embankment and Karla has one last mission for him.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,655

    Fishing said:

    Thank God common sense seems to be breaking slowly through on Net Zero, ULEZ and other green crap anyway. I can see this being the big popular revolt of the 2020s, like leaving the EU was for the 2010s.

    So, what do you suggest is the common sense approach the Tories should take?
    That's easy:

    The problem in London - both inner and outer - is largely with delivery vehicles. (And then to a lesser extent, other commercial vehicles.)

    They drive many more miles than private passenger vehicles, and a £12 charge is little incentive to switch a vehicle that you are driving into the ground anyway.

    I would require them all to be electric, or to pay £100. I would also severely curtail the restocking of shops during business hours.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,914

    TimS said:

    Even if Comrade Jez splits the left vote, it's going to be hard for the Conservatives to take advantage.

    In 2021, Shaun Bailey got 35% in the first round. That was at peak Vaccine Hero Boris, and Bailey was a better candidate than Hall. (Who has already managed to pose for a stupid photo on the front page of the Standard and caused the Conservatives to complain to London's newspaper, which is never a wise thing to do.)

    We're not far off a scenario where the vote to the left of the Conservatives could be split into three equal portions and still come out ahead of Hall.

    Not sure that is right. Bailey was 4.7% behind. Corbyn will win a lot more than 5% if he stands, I would guess 15-20% most likely. That feels like enough to allow the Tories to win if they get around 30% to me. Sounds plausible.
    I don’t think the Tories will get 30% in the mayoral when they’re on less than that nationally.

    Uxbridge (a 6.7% swing to Labour by the way) has gone to everyone’s heads.
    The economy is bad and people feel like there is no solution and one party has been in power a long time. Nationally that is a disaster for the Tories. In London, some blame the Tories (fairly) others blame the Mayor (unfairly), so less so.
    Khan is a bit shit. He is taking all of the blame for ULEZ, yet the decision to impose it was made by Shapps Green. So he should have been banging that particular drum hard. Instead he's taking the blame.
    I wonder about that. Was the ULEZ, specifically, forced onto Khan, or was Khan told that he had to come up with £x00m in extra income or spending cuts, and he chose the ULEZ option rather than increasing fares or cutting services?
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    Miklosvar said:

    felix said:

    Fishing said:

    Thank God common sense seems to be breaking slowly through on Net Zero, ULEZ and other green crap anyway. I can see this being the big popular revolt of the 2020s, like leaving the EU was for the 2010s.

    Half of Europe is on fire and the other half is flooded according to the news, so maybe green crap is not quite dea.d.
    Tells you everything about how crap the news is and sfs about weather and climate
    Are you saying that the whole of Rhodes catches fire every year and reporting it is just a passing fad? Are you not amazed by the photograph here, in peacetime Europe?

    https://www.theguardian.com/weather/2023/jul/22/more-than-1000-people-forced-to-flee-wildfires-on-greek-island-of-rhodes
    Buy up properties in Blackpool, Yarmouth and Scarborough. The Santorinis and Sorrentos of the 2050s......
    And fell those bastard ents before it's too late
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    The majority Brexit voting crew ! I still can’t believe so many in agriculture and fisheries voted against their own interests .
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972
    Carnyx said:

    I was reading that. One unexpected message is that it looks as if political fixation on a small sector of the fishing industry (large pelagic ships, esp. related to Scottish Tory Party constituencies) might have led to screwing the other fisherfolk - this sector of the demersal (?) industry as well as the inshore shellfish/crusty fishers.

    Edit. I don't know why I said 'unexpected'. Should know better by now.
    As many of you know I live in Banff and Buchan, where local Tory lickspittle David Duguid keeps issuing leaflets crowing about how brilliant Brexit has been for the local Fraserburgh and Peterhead fishing fleets. He is working with and listening to the fishermen he claims.

    Its a lie. Go ask the fishermen. https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/politics/scottish-politics/5342023/mike-park-brexit/
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,159
    Dura_Ace said:

    I once led a boarding party on a North Sea trawler as a pink cheeked Sub Lt. It seemed like the most squalid and uncomfortable way possible to go to sea with more than half the crew being more than half drunk at 1pm.
    Sean clearly missed his vocation.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,412
    edited July 2023
    Sandpit said:

    Keir and Sadiq falling out?

    Sir Keir Starmer has said that Labour must “face up” to the electoral damage caused by the Ultra-Low Emission Zone (Ulez) in London.

    “Speaking at Labour’s National Policy Forum in Nottingham on Saturday, he went further than ever in his criticism of Sadiq Khan’s expansion of Ulez to outer London, saying the party was “doing something very wrong” if its policies “end up on each and every Tory leaflet”.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/07/22/keir-starme-labour-face-electoral-damage-ulez/

    There was a time, you ideas vacuum Keir, when that was the actual point.

    [Edited to make clear that Keith is the ideas vacuum, not @Sandpit ]
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,888

    Fishing said:

    Thank God common sense seems to be breaking slowly through on Net Zero, ULEZ and other green crap anyway. I can see this being the big popular revolt of the 2020s, like leaving the EU was for the 2010s.

    So, what do you suggest is the common sense approach the Tories should take?
    1) The heaviest burden should fall on the broadest shoulders
    2) Optics matter. White (old diesel) van man in Hillingdon can see all the flights in and out of Heathrow on low tax fuel
    3) The big changes are about universal regulation of production standards for cars and things - getting better all the time. The big global polluters are dirty electricity generation, shipping, forest destruction
    4) Heat pumps won't universally fly. Hydrogen might.
    5) Net Zero won't happen. Plan for mitigating climate change
    6) Carbon removal and capture is essential or we are doomed. Tell us about it and invest.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972

    Miklosvar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Keir and Sadiq falling out?

    Sir Keir Starmer has said that Labour must “face up” to the electoral damage caused by the Ultra-Low Emission Zone (Ulez) in London.

    “Speaking at Labour’s National Policy Forum in Nottingham on Saturday, he went further than ever in his criticism of Sadiq Khan’s expansion of Ulez to outer London, saying the party was “doing something very wrong” if its policies “end up on each and every Tory leaflet”.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/07/22/keir-starme-labour-face-electoral-damage-ulez/

    SKS bears the impression of the last arse that sat on him. This was a one off protest vote. The ulez will have expanded before the GE, downsizing it will be in nobody's manifesto, and its a GE not a BE.
    The National aims a boot at the featureless plastic area where Starmer’s balls should be. Almost Private Eye-esque.


    Its only missing the "hasn't been arrested" tag. "Proper leaders get their collars felt" said Mr Yousless.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393
    Miklosvar said:

    felix said:

    Fishing said:

    Thank God common sense seems to be breaking slowly through on Net Zero, ULEZ and other green crap anyway. I can see this being the big popular revolt of the 2020s, like leaving the EU was for the 2010s.

    Half of Europe is on fire and the other half is flooded according to the news, so maybe green crap is not quite dea.d.
    Tells you everything about how crap the news is and sfs about weather and climate
    Are you saying that the whole of Rhodes catches fire every year and reporting it is just a passing fad? Are you not amazed by the photograph here, in peacetime Europe?

    https://www.theguardian.com/weather/2023/jul/22/more-than-1000-people-forced-to-flee-wildfires-on-greek-island-of-rhodes
    Some people haven't quite cottoned on yet ...

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html

    'Holidaymaker Emma Marsh said: 'We are currently in Rhodes - we landed today only to be told that our hotel has burnt down. No one from the airline informed us before we flew.";
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156

    TimS said:

    Even if Comrade Jez splits the left vote, it's going to be hard for the Conservatives to take advantage.

    In 2021, Shaun Bailey got 35% in the first round. That was at peak Vaccine Hero Boris, and Bailey was a better candidate than Hall. (Who has already managed to pose for a stupid photo on the front page of the Standard and caused the Conservatives to complain to London's newspaper, which is never a wise thing to do.)

    We're not far off a scenario where the vote to the left of the Conservatives could be split into three equal portions and still come out ahead of Hall.

    Not sure that is right. Bailey was 4.7% behind. Corbyn will win a lot more than 5% if he stands, I would guess 15-20% most likely. That feels like enough to allow the Tories to win if they get around 30% to me. Sounds plausible.
    I don’t think the Tories will get 30% in the mayoral when they’re on less than that nationally.

    Uxbridge (a 6.7% swing to Labour by the way) has gone to everyone’s heads.
    The economy is bad and people feel like there is no solution and one party has been in power a long time. Nationally that is a disaster for the Tories. In London, some blame the Tories (fairly) others blame the Mayor (unfairly), so less so.
    Khan is a bit shit. He is taking all of the blame for ULEZ, yet the decision to impose it was made by Shapps Green. So he should have been banging that particular drum hard. Instead he's taking the blame.
    Not sure that works. He can't champion ULEZ at the same time as say, not my fault, blame the Tories for it.

    His mistakes are around implementation, leaving it fiscally regressive, and a lack of listening, persuasion and compromise, three characteristics that are sorely missing from contemporary UK politics across the board.
    No to both. The mistakes lay with the muppet running Labour's Uxbridge campaign who decided not to counter Tories telling voters they'd all have to pay, when in fact most vehicles are exempt. Years ago John Prescott complained about this idea, then presumably due to Mandelson and/or Campbell, that you must never refute your opponent's charges because that is letting the Tories "set the agenda". Well, great unless it means losing an election.
    I think there is a lot of electoral denial on here from normally astute posters.

    That 90% are not impacted is pretty irrelevant to the electoral damage. These are low turnout elections decided by not that much. The first round gap between Khan and Bailey was 120,000 votes. If 700,000 vehicles are starting to get hit by charges, that will be a big problem. Now of course the Tories are so bad nationally it may not matter but it is dismissed far too casually.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,031
    rcs1000 said:

    Fishing said:

    Thank God common sense seems to be breaking slowly through on Net Zero, ULEZ and other green crap anyway. I can see this being the big popular revolt of the 2020s, like leaving the EU was for the 2010s.

    So, what do you suggest is the common sense approach the Tories should take?
    That's easy:

    The problem in London - both inner and outer - is largely with delivery vehicles. (And then to a lesser extent, other commercial vehicles.)

    They drive many more miles than private passenger vehicles, and a £12 charge is little incentive to switch a vehicle that you are driving into the ground anyway.

    I would require them all to be electric, or to pay £100. I would also severely curtail the restocking of shops during business hours.
    Exactly. If the charge had been targeted against commercial vehicles, rather than roughly the 2nd quintile of JAMs, it would have been much more popular.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,079
    Sandpit said:

    TimS said:

    Proper knife edge this morning

    img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5020679/uploads/editor/p8/hlrkrjqd3l5y.jpeg" alt="" />

    Ooh, that’s close.

    Come on the weather, give us a couple of hours of play again.
    Note of course that OT is a couple of miles SW of the dot which says Manchester.
    I can confirm it is dry a couple of miles south of that.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,031
    IanB2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I once led a boarding party on a North Sea trawler as a pink cheeked Sub Lt. It seemed like the most squalid and uncomfortable way possible to go to sea with more than half the crew being more than half drunk at 1pm.
    Sean clearly missed his vocation.
    Shall we run a book on him turning up in Kiev this afternoon?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156

    Corbyn is 74. He should retire gracefully, and fill his time tending his allotment, making the perfect jam, and contributing to PB.
    Sorted.

    Imagine the pb frothing and betfair value as he gets close to his second term at 79. People just wont cope with the obvious that politicians rarely give up power voluntarily.
This discussion has been closed.