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Losing your deposit no longer the negative it was – politicalbetting.com

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  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,352

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    I'll FPT this one, though I'm out for a couple of hours. I'll address replies after lunch, if anyone is interested.

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pete, worth remembering the UK has generally very positive views of migrants, including compared to other European nations.

    Also, I think you're misreading this, though understandably.

    For what it's worth, my view is this is a cost of living matter, and one that (unusually) can be laid squarely on Labour's door. It's highly specific to areas involed in ULEZ expansion. For most people, cost of living is food inflation, energy prices, and mortgage rates getting hiked.

    How anyone in labour thought a £12.50 a day tax on using your car or van to go about your legal business was a good idea amazes me
    The desired outcome is laudable, but execution has been pathetic. Likewise 20mph in Wales. Dreadfully poorly implemented and pitch rolling. It's like Rishi suggested yesterday, Labour-Starmer arrogance and hubris will deliver Rishi the GE. Sheffield Rally anyone?
    The problem is that labour cannot stop being authoritarian when common sense should be the word
    It’s going to blow your mind when you find out who introduced ULEZ.

    Boris never proposed extending ULEZ to the London suburbs, it was only for inner London, it is Khan who has extended it to outer London
    Why is introducing ULEZ in inner London less authoritarian than doing it in outer London?

    Because IT IS. We have to do something about pollution so lets tax polluting cars. Huzzah. No no, not my car, their car.
    You are able to afford to drive a Tesla but attack those who cannot afford a ULEZ compliant car !!!
    We've done this. 20 year old bangers are ULEZ compliant. The political argument is that ULEZ is a tax on the working poor. The working poor generally do not have a car in London. Those who do either find that it is already compliant, or had to change car to one slightly newer because you can't daily drive something ancient and non-compliant as the running cost becomes prohibitive.

    I accept there will be a few edge cases - some diesels which really aren't suitable for local running about in London anyway. But almost all of the supposed victims of this are not victims.
    What is revealing in some of the anti-ULEZ arguments is that people can't seem to conceive of the fact that most poor people in London don't even have a car. It's as if these people don't even exist.
    Personally I find the cast of characters arguing against ULEZs - Susan Hall, Howard Cox, Foxy-Loxy and the Association of Bad Drivers - to be quite encouraging :smile: .

    Now off out. Have a good day, all.
    This divisive style of politics is self defeating. The chance of ULEZ being kept for 10 years+ is less because its champions are happy getting enough support to pass it, rather than bringing more of the public with them.

    Yes many of the anti ULEZ people are idiots, but that does not mean ULEZ fans do not have an obligation to listen to and where possible address complaints.
    I think ULEZ will have done it's job and be non-controversial within quite a short period. If the Govt targets are met, we will have broken the back of NOx pollution reduction by 2026-2028.

    This issue I have is that I have yet to hear a single credible argument against the LTN in London, or an alternative proposal, given the 2028 target for LAs set by the Conservative Government.

    Susan Hall seems to me to be either a fool, an ignoramus or a cynic - as she has claimed she will do things that the London Mayor does not have the power to do.

    I'm inclined to a similar assessment of Mark Harper, based on what he has done so far. The ABD and Howard Cox's group are pantomime performers.

    AFAICS all they have is the aim to create a divisive wedge issue and hope that enough people fall for it, which is why I keep calling it a Hail Mary pass. I suspect that is what we can also expect from Govt for the next year.
    The main problem with the proliferation of LTNs and huge overspending on cycling networks recently is they're hyped by a small number of very loud activists who are hugely keen on their pet hobby (cycling).

    This means that a) it fails to account for the needs of the majority of the population, who need to drive and b) creates resentment, because, like many of the Remainer activists in the 2017-19 Parliament, they're absolutely blinkered to alternative points of view.

    The silent majority aren't in favour of road closures, or ULEZ etc zones.

    The silent majority of which you speak seem pretty noisy to me, loudly asserting their right to untrammeled car driving.
    When their liberties are taken away, of course.

    One of my bugbears is people moving to a place and then complaining about situations that should have been obvious when they moved there. Next to schools, cricket grounds, outskirts of cities etc.
    For quite a while in this small town there were complaints about noise from people who had fairly recently moved into houses next door to long-standing pubs.
    By longstanding I mean three or four centuries old.
    Several Herefordshire villages had problems with people moving in next to a church and then complaining about the noise of the bells.
    Church bells are lovely.

    I used to live next to a mosque, which would wake me up at 5am.
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    I'll FPT this one, though I'm out for a couple of hours. I'll address replies after lunch, if anyone is interested.

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pete, worth remembering the UK has generally very positive views of migrants, including compared to other European nations.

    Also, I think you're misreading this, though understandably.

    For what it's worth, my view is this is a cost of living matter, and one that (unusually) can be laid squarely on Labour's door. It's highly specific to areas involed in ULEZ expansion. For most people, cost of living is food inflation, energy prices, and mortgage rates getting hiked.

    How anyone in labour thought a £12.50 a day tax on using your car or van to go about your legal business was a good idea amazes me
    The desired outcome is laudable, but execution has been pathetic. Likewise 20mph in Wales. Dreadfully poorly implemented and pitch rolling. It's like Rishi suggested yesterday, Labour-Starmer arrogance and hubris will deliver Rishi the GE. Sheffield Rally anyone?
    The problem is that labour cannot stop being authoritarian when common sense should be the word
    It’s going to blow your mind when you find out who introduced ULEZ.

    Boris never proposed extending ULEZ to the London suburbs, it was only for inner London, it is Khan who has extended it to outer London
    Why is introducing ULEZ in inner London less authoritarian than doing it in outer London?

    Because IT IS. We have to do something about pollution so lets tax polluting cars. Huzzah. No no, not my car, their car.
    You are able to afford to drive a Tesla but attack those who cannot afford a ULEZ compliant car !!!
    We've done this. 20 year old bangers are ULEZ compliant. The political argument is that ULEZ is a tax on the working poor. The working poor generally do not have a car in London. Those who do either find that it is already compliant, or had to change car to one slightly newer because you can't daily drive something ancient and non-compliant as the running cost becomes prohibitive.

    I accept there will be a few edge cases - some diesels which really aren't suitable for local running about in London anyway. But almost all of the supposed victims of this are not victims.
    What is revealing in some of the anti-ULEZ arguments is that people can't seem to conceive of the fact that most poor people in London don't even have a car. It's as if these people don't even exist.
    Personally I find the cast of characters arguing against ULEZs - Susan Hall, Howard Cox, Foxy-Loxy and the Association of Bad Drivers - to be quite encouraging :smile: .

    Now off out. Have a good day, all.
    This divisive style of politics is self defeating. The chance of ULEZ being kept for 10 years+ is less because its champions are happy getting enough support to pass it, rather than bringing more of the public with them.

    Yes many of the anti ULEZ people are idiots, but that does not mean ULEZ fans do not have an obligation to listen to and where possible address complaints.
    I think ULEZ will have done it's job and be non-controversial within quite a short period. If the Govt targets are met, we will have broken the back of NOx pollution reduction by 2026-2028.

    This issue I have is that I have yet to hear a single credible argument against the LTN in London, or an alternative proposal, given the 2028 target for LAs set by the Conservative Government.

    Susan Hall seems to me to be either a fool, an ignoramus or a cynic - as she has claimed she will do things that the London Mayor does not have the power to do.

    I'm inclined to a similar assessment of Mark Harper, based on what he has done so far. The ABD and Howard Cox's group are pantomime performers.

    AFAICS all they have is the aim to create a divisive wedge issue and hope that enough people fall for it, which is why I keep calling it a Hail Mary pass. I suspect that is what we can also expect from Govt for the next year.
    The main problem with the proliferation of LTNs and huge overspending on cycling networks recently is they're hyped by a small number of very loud activists who are hugely keen on their pet hobby (cycling).

    This means that a) it fails to account for the needs of the majority of the population, who need to drive and b) creates resentment, because, like many of the Remainer activists in the 2017-19 Parliament, they're absolutely blinkered to alternative points of view.

    The silent majority aren't in favour of road closures, or ULEZ etc zones.

    The silent majority of which you speak seem pretty noisy to me, loudly asserting their right to untrammeled car driving.
    When their liberties are taken away, of course.

    One of my bugbears is people moving to a place and then complaining about situations that should have been obvious when they moved there. Next to schools, cricket grounds, outskirts of cities etc.
    For quite a while in this small town there were complaints about noise from people who had fairly recently moved into houses next door to long-standing pubs.
    By longstanding I mean three or four centuries old.
    Several Herefordshire villages had problems with people moving in next to a church and then complaining about the noise of the bells.
    Church bells are lovely.

    I used to live next to a mosque, which would wake me up at 5am.
    For what it’s worth, our worst ‘waking up’ was at a seaside hotel in Bridport. At about 4am on a summer morning we discovered it was the favourite meeting place for a couple of dozen local seagulls, who screamed at each other for an hour or so! We tried to scare them off but they came back and carried on!
    They are often noisy because they are hard of herring.
    Still, there's a time and a plaice for it.
    Depends on the scale
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,721

    Miklosvar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/jul/22/is-housing-crisis-killing-romance-modern-dating-jane-austen

    For those who aren't keen on cricket, or are waiting for it to resume: the relevance of Miss Austen's romances to our time. More about modern economics than novel plot and style analysis, however.

    'When I mention to friends the prospect of a “Jane Austen-style, housing-based marriage market”, they laugh, then grow more thoughtful. “I mean, whenever we have an argument, I think, ‘Would I want to have to sell up and find somewhere to live?’ The answer’s no,” says one. Another puts it bluntly: “My rent would double if we broke up.” A third laughs: “I’m never breaking up with him – we have a lovely home. Oh, and I love him.”'

    Just need to bring back Jane Austen style Vicarages for Vicars rather than having old Rectories mostly now owned privately by bankers and lawyers
    Try heating The Old Rectory on a C of E stipend
    The reason why there are so many very large old rectories is largely, I believe, because vicars very often used to be the sons of the gentry. They could afford the lifestyle that went with a big grand house, and I think (though not certain) that often the families paid for their construction.
    First son got the estate, second went into the army (possibly the navy) and the third into the church.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,959

    The ladies' world soccerball cup England vs Haiti is currently on ITV.

    1-0 is a bit disappointing for England given they're ranked 3rd in the world and Haiti 53rd.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,772
    edited July 2023

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    I'll FPT this one, though I'm out for a couple of hours. I'll address replies after lunch, if anyone is interested.

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pete, worth remembering the UK has generally very positive views of migrants, including compared to other European nations.

    Also, I think you're misreading this, though understandably.

    For what it's worth, my view is this is a cost of living matter, and one that (unusually) can be laid squarely on Labour's door. It's highly specific to areas involed in ULEZ expansion. For most people, cost of living is food inflation, energy prices, and mortgage rates getting hiked.

    How anyone in labour thought a £12.50 a day tax on using your car or van to go about your legal business was a good idea amazes me
    The desired outcome is laudable, but execution has been pathetic. Likewise 20mph in Wales. Dreadfully poorly implemented and pitch rolling. It's like Rishi suggested yesterday, Labour-Starmer arrogance and hubris will deliver Rishi the GE. Sheffield Rally anyone?
    The problem is that labour cannot stop being authoritarian when common sense should be the word
    It’s going to blow your mind when you find out who introduced ULEZ.

    Boris never proposed extending ULEZ to the London suburbs, it was only for inner London, it is Khan who has extended it to outer London
    Why is introducing ULEZ in inner London less authoritarian than doing it in outer London?

    Because IT IS. We have to do something about pollution so lets tax polluting cars. Huzzah. No no, not my car, their car.
    You are able to afford to drive a Tesla but attack those who cannot afford a ULEZ compliant car !!!
    We've done this. 20 year old bangers are ULEZ compliant. The political argument is that ULEZ is a tax on the working poor. The working poor generally do not have a car in London. Those who do either find that it is already compliant, or had to change car to one slightly newer because you can't daily drive something ancient and non-compliant as the running cost becomes prohibitive.

    I accept there will be a few edge cases - some diesels which really aren't suitable for local running about in London anyway. But almost all of the supposed victims of this are not victims.
    What is revealing in some of the anti-ULEZ arguments is that people can't seem to conceive of the fact that most poor people in London don't even have a car. It's as if these people don't even exist.
    Personally I find the cast of characters arguing against ULEZs - Susan Hall, Howard Cox, Foxy-Loxy and the Association of Bad Drivers - to be quite encouraging :smile: .

    Now off out. Have a good day, all.
    This divisive style of politics is self defeating. The chance of ULEZ being kept for 10 years+ is less because its champions are happy getting enough support to pass it, rather than bringing more of the public with them.

    Yes many of the anti ULEZ people are idiots, but that does not mean ULEZ fans do not have an obligation to listen to and where possible address complaints.
    I think ULEZ will have done it's job and be non-controversial within quite a short period. If the Govt targets are met, we will have broken the back of NOx pollution reduction by 2026-2028.

    This issue I have is that I have yet to hear a single credible argument against the LTN in London, or an alternative proposal, given the 2028 target for LAs set by the Conservative Government.

    Susan Hall seems to me to be either a fool, an ignoramus or a cynic - as she has claimed she will do things that the London Mayor does not have the power to do.

    I'm inclined to a similar assessment of Mark Harper, based on what he has done so far. The ABD and Howard Cox's group are pantomime performers.

    AFAICS all they have is the aim to create a divisive wedge issue and hope that enough people fall for it, which is why I keep calling it a Hail Mary pass. I suspect that is what we can also expect from Govt for the next year.
    The main problem with the proliferation of LTNs and huge overspending on cycling networks recently is they're hyped by a small number of very loud activists who are hugely keen on their pet hobby (cycling).

    This means that a) it fails to account for the needs of the majority of the population, who need to drive and b) creates resentment, because, like many of the Remainer activists in the 2017-19 Parliament, they're absolutely blinkered to alternative points of view.

    The silent majority aren't in favour of road closures, or ULEZ etc zones.

    The silent majority of which you speak seem pretty noisy to me, loudly asserting their right to untrammeled car driving.
    When their liberties are taken away, of course.

    One of my bugbears is people moving to a place and then complaining about situations that should have been obvious when they moved there. Next to schools, cricket grounds, outskirts of cities etc.
    For quite a while in this small town there were complaints about noise from people who had fairly recently moved into houses next door to long-standing pubs.
    By longstanding I mean three or four centuries old.
    Several Herefordshire villages had problems with people moving in next to a church and then complaining about the noise of the bells.
    Church bells are lovely.

    I used to live next to a mosque, which would wake me up at 5am.
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    I'll FPT this one, though I'm out for a couple of hours. I'll address replies after lunch, if anyone is interested.

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pete, worth remembering the UK has generally very positive views of migrants, including compared to other European nations.

    Also, I think you're misreading this, though understandably.

    For what it's worth, my view is this is a cost of living matter, and one that (unusually) can be laid squarely on Labour's door. It's highly specific to areas involed in ULEZ expansion. For most people, cost of living is food inflation, energy prices, and mortgage rates getting hiked.

    How anyone in labour thought a £12.50 a day tax on using your car or van to go about your legal business was a good idea amazes me
    The desired outcome is laudable, but execution has been pathetic. Likewise 20mph in Wales. Dreadfully poorly implemented and pitch rolling. It's like Rishi suggested yesterday, Labour-Starmer arrogance and hubris will deliver Rishi the GE. Sheffield Rally anyone?
    The problem is that labour cannot stop being authoritarian when common sense should be the word
    It’s going to blow your mind when you find out who introduced ULEZ.

    Boris never proposed extending ULEZ to the London suburbs, it was only for inner London, it is Khan who has extended it to outer London
    Why is introducing ULEZ in inner London less authoritarian than doing it in outer London?

    Because IT IS. We have to do something about pollution so lets tax polluting cars. Huzzah. No no, not my car, their car.
    You are able to afford to drive a Tesla but attack those who cannot afford a ULEZ compliant car !!!
    We've done this. 20 year old bangers are ULEZ compliant. The political argument is that ULEZ is a tax on the working poor. The working poor generally do not have a car in London. Those who do either find that it is already compliant, or had to change car to one slightly newer because you can't daily drive something ancient and non-compliant as the running cost becomes prohibitive.

    I accept there will be a few edge cases - some diesels which really aren't suitable for local running about in London anyway. But almost all of the supposed victims of this are not victims.
    What is revealing in some of the anti-ULEZ arguments is that people can't seem to conceive of the fact that most poor people in London don't even have a car. It's as if these people don't even exist.
    Personally I find the cast of characters arguing against ULEZs - Susan Hall, Howard Cox, Foxy-Loxy and the Association of Bad Drivers - to be quite encouraging :smile: .

    Now off out. Have a good day, all.
    This divisive style of politics is self defeating. The chance of ULEZ being kept for 10 years+ is less because its champions are happy getting enough support to pass it, rather than bringing more of the public with them.

    Yes many of the anti ULEZ people are idiots, but that does not mean ULEZ fans do not have an obligation to listen to and where possible address complaints.
    I think ULEZ will have done it's job and be non-controversial within quite a short period. If the Govt targets are met, we will have broken the back of NOx pollution reduction by 2026-2028.

    This issue I have is that I have yet to hear a single credible argument against the LTN in London, or an alternative proposal, given the 2028 target for LAs set by the Conservative Government.

    Susan Hall seems to me to be either a fool, an ignoramus or a cynic - as she has claimed she will do things that the London Mayor does not have the power to do.

    I'm inclined to a similar assessment of Mark Harper, based on what he has done so far. The ABD and Howard Cox's group are pantomime performers.

    AFAICS all they have is the aim to create a divisive wedge issue and hope that enough people fall for it, which is why I keep calling it a Hail Mary pass. I suspect that is what we can also expect from Govt for the next year.
    The main problem with the proliferation of LTNs and huge overspending on cycling networks recently is they're hyped by a small number of very loud activists who are hugely keen on their pet hobby (cycling).

    This means that a) it fails to account for the needs of the majority of the population, who need to drive and b) creates resentment, because, like many of the Remainer activists in the 2017-19 Parliament, they're absolutely blinkered to alternative points of view.

    The silent majority aren't in favour of road closures, or ULEZ etc zones.

    The silent majority of which you speak seem pretty noisy to me, loudly asserting their right to untrammeled car driving.
    When their liberties are taken away, of course.

    One of my bugbears is people moving to a place and then complaining about situations that should have been obvious when they moved there. Next to schools, cricket grounds, outskirts of cities etc.
    For quite a while in this small town there were complaints about noise from people who had fairly recently moved into houses next door to long-standing pubs.
    By longstanding I mean three or four centuries old.
    Several Herefordshire villages had problems with people moving in next to a church and then complaining about the noise of the bells.
    Church bells are lovely.

    I used to live next to a mosque, which would wake me up at 5am.
    For what it’s worth, our worst ‘waking up’ was at a seaside hotel in Bridport. At about 4am on a summer morning we discovered it was the favourite meeting place for a couple of dozen local seagulls, who screamed at each other for an hour or so! We tried to scare them off but they came back and carried on!
    They are often noisy because they are hard of herring.
    And a bloody nuisance when you're trying to get a peaceful kip. Er...
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    I'll FPT this one, though I'm out for a couple of hours. I'll address replies after lunch, if anyone is interested.

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pete, worth remembering the UK has generally very positive views of migrants, including compared to other European nations.

    Also, I think you're misreading this, though understandably.

    For what it's worth, my view is this is a cost of living matter, and one that (unusually) can be laid squarely on Labour's door. It's highly specific to areas involed in ULEZ expansion. For most people, cost of living is food inflation, energy prices, and mortgage rates getting hiked.

    How anyone in labour thought a £12.50 a day tax on using your car or van to go about your legal business was a good idea amazes me
    The desired outcome is laudable, but execution has been pathetic. Likewise 20mph in Wales. Dreadfully poorly implemented and pitch rolling. It's like Rishi suggested yesterday, Labour-Starmer arrogance and hubris will deliver Rishi the GE. Sheffield Rally anyone?
    The problem is that labour cannot stop being authoritarian when common sense should be the word
    It’s going to blow your mind when you find out who introduced ULEZ.

    Boris never proposed extending ULEZ to the London suburbs, it was only for inner London, it is Khan who has extended it to outer London
    Why is introducing ULEZ in inner London less authoritarian than doing it in outer London?

    Because IT IS. We have to do something about pollution so lets tax polluting cars. Huzzah. No no, not my car, their car.
    You are able to afford to drive a Tesla but attack those who cannot afford a ULEZ compliant car !!!
    We've done this. 20 year old bangers are ULEZ compliant. The political argument is that ULEZ is a tax on the working poor. The working poor generally do not have a car in London. Those who do either find that it is already compliant, or had to change car to one slightly newer because you can't daily drive something ancient and non-compliant as the running cost becomes prohibitive.

    I accept there will be a few edge cases - some diesels which really aren't suitable for local running about in London anyway. But almost all of the supposed victims of this are not victims.
    What is revealing in some of the anti-ULEZ arguments is that people can't seem to conceive of the fact that most poor people in London don't even have a car. It's as if these people don't even exist.
    Personally I find the cast of characters arguing against ULEZs - Susan Hall, Howard Cox, Foxy-Loxy and the Association of Bad Drivers - to be quite encouraging :smile: .

    Now off out. Have a good day, all.
    This divisive style of politics is self defeating. The chance of ULEZ being kept for 10 years+ is less because its champions are happy getting enough support to pass it, rather than bringing more of the public with them.

    Yes many of the anti ULEZ people are idiots, but that does not mean ULEZ fans do not have an obligation to listen to and where possible address complaints.
    I think ULEZ will have done it's job and be non-controversial within quite a short period. If the Govt targets are met, we will have broken the back of NOx pollution reduction by 2026-2028.

    This issue I have is that I have yet to hear a single credible argument against the LTN in London, or an alternative proposal, given the 2028 target for LAs set by the Conservative Government.

    Susan Hall seems to me to be either a fool, an ignoramus or a cynic - as she has claimed she will do things that the London Mayor does not have the power to do.

    I'm inclined to a similar assessment of Mark Harper, based on what he has done so far. The ABD and Howard Cox's group are pantomime performers.

    AFAICS all they have is the aim to create a divisive wedge issue and hope that enough people fall for it, which is why I keep calling it a Hail Mary pass. I suspect that is what we can also expect from Govt for the next year.
    The main problem with the proliferation of LTNs and huge overspending on cycling networks recently is they're hyped by a small number of very loud activists who are hugely keen on their pet hobby (cycling).

    This means that a) it fails to account for the needs of the majority of the population, who need to drive and b) creates resentment, because, like many of the Remainer activists in the 2017-19 Parliament, they're absolutely blinkered to alternative points of view.

    The silent majority aren't in favour of road closures, or ULEZ etc zones.

    The silent majority of which you speak seem pretty noisy to me, loudly asserting their right to untrammeled car driving.
    When their liberties are taken away, of course.

    One of my bugbears is people moving to a place and then complaining about situations that should have been obvious when they moved there. Next to schools, cricket grounds, outskirts of cities etc.
    For quite a while in this small town there were complaints about noise from people who had fairly recently moved into houses next door to long-standing pubs.
    By longstanding I mean three or four centuries old.
    Several Herefordshire villages had problems with people moving in next to a church and then complaining about the noise of the bells.
    Church bells are lovely.

    I used to live next to a mosque, which would wake me up at 5am.
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    I'll FPT this one, though I'm out for a couple of hours. I'll address replies after lunch, if anyone is interested.

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pete, worth remembering the UK has generally very positive views of migrants, including compared to other European nations.

    Also, I think you're misreading this, though understandably.

    For what it's worth, my view is this is a cost of living matter, and one that (unusually) can be laid squarely on Labour's door. It's highly specific to areas involed in ULEZ expansion. For most people, cost of living is food inflation, energy prices, and mortgage rates getting hiked.

    How anyone in labour thought a £12.50 a day tax on using your car or van to go about your legal business was a good idea amazes me
    The desired outcome is laudable, but execution has been pathetic. Likewise 20mph in Wales. Dreadfully poorly implemented and pitch rolling. It's like Rishi suggested yesterday, Labour-Starmer arrogance and hubris will deliver Rishi the GE. Sheffield Rally anyone?
    The problem is that labour cannot stop being authoritarian when common sense should be the word
    It’s going to blow your mind when you find out who introduced ULEZ.

    Boris never proposed extending ULEZ to the London suburbs, it was only for inner London, it is Khan who has extended it to outer London
    Why is introducing ULEZ in inner London less authoritarian than doing it in outer London?

    Because IT IS. We have to do something about pollution so lets tax polluting cars. Huzzah. No no, not my car, their car.
    You are able to afford to drive a Tesla but attack those who cannot afford a ULEZ compliant car !!!
    We've done this. 20 year old bangers are ULEZ compliant. The political argument is that ULEZ is a tax on the working poor. The working poor generally do not have a car in London. Those who do either find that it is already compliant, or had to change car to one slightly newer because you can't daily drive something ancient and non-compliant as the running cost becomes prohibitive.

    I accept there will be a few edge cases - some diesels which really aren't suitable for local running about in London anyway. But almost all of the supposed victims of this are not victims.
    What is revealing in some of the anti-ULEZ arguments is that people can't seem to conceive of the fact that most poor people in London don't even have a car. It's as if these people don't even exist.
    Personally I find the cast of characters arguing against ULEZs - Susan Hall, Howard Cox, Foxy-Loxy and the Association of Bad Drivers - to be quite encouraging :smile: .

    Now off out. Have a good day, all.
    This divisive style of politics is self defeating. The chance of ULEZ being kept for 10 years+ is less because its champions are happy getting enough support to pass it, rather than bringing more of the public with them.

    Yes many of the anti ULEZ people are idiots, but that does not mean ULEZ fans do not have an obligation to listen to and where possible address complaints.
    I think ULEZ will have done it's job and be non-controversial within quite a short period. If the Govt targets are met, we will have broken the back of NOx pollution reduction by 2026-2028.

    This issue I have is that I have yet to hear a single credible argument against the LTN in London, or an alternative proposal, given the 2028 target for LAs set by the Conservative Government.

    Susan Hall seems to me to be either a fool, an ignoramus or a cynic - as she has claimed she will do things that the London Mayor does not have the power to do.

    I'm inclined to a similar assessment of Mark Harper, based on what he has done so far. The ABD and Howard Cox's group are pantomime performers.

    AFAICS all they have is the aim to create a divisive wedge issue and hope that enough people fall for it, which is why I keep calling it a Hail Mary pass. I suspect that is what we can also expect from Govt for the next year.
    The main problem with the proliferation of LTNs and huge overspending on cycling networks recently is they're hyped by a small number of very loud activists who are hugely keen on their pet hobby (cycling).

    This means that a) it fails to account for the needs of the majority of the population, who need to drive and b) creates resentment, because, like many of the Remainer activists in the 2017-19 Parliament, they're absolutely blinkered to alternative points of view.

    The silent majority aren't in favour of road closures, or ULEZ etc zones.

    The silent majority of which you speak seem pretty noisy to me, loudly asserting their right to untrammeled car driving.
    When their liberties are taken away, of course.

    One of my bugbears is people moving to a place and then complaining about situations that should have been obvious when they moved there. Next to schools, cricket grounds, outskirts of cities etc.
    For quite a while in this small town there were complaints about noise from people who had fairly recently moved into houses next door to long-standing pubs.
    By longstanding I mean three or four centuries old.
    Several Herefordshire villages had problems with people moving in next to a church and then complaining about the noise of the bells.
    Church bells are lovely.

    I used to live next to a mosque, which would wake me up at 5am.
    For what it’s worth, our worst ‘waking up’ was at a seaside hotel in Bridport. At about 4am on a summer morning we discovered it was the favourite meeting place for a couple of dozen local seagulls, who screamed at each other for an hour or so! We tried to scare them off but they came back and carried on!
    Growing up by the coast I like the sound of seagulls and can sleep through it quite easily.
    The most unpleasant wake up around here is foxes copulating, which by the sound of it is not always entirely consensual.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,035
    edited July 2023

    FPT

    Radar looking good!

    Build a retractable roof like they did at Wimbledon :lol:
    They should have hung a massive plastic sheet from the lighting towers overnight.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,149

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    I'll FPT this one, though I'm out for a couple of hours. I'll address replies after lunch, if anyone is interested.

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pete, worth remembering the UK has generally very positive views of migrants, including compared to other European nations.

    Also, I think you're misreading this, though understandably.

    For what it's worth, my view is this is a cost of living matter, and one that (unusually) can be laid squarely on Labour's door. It's highly specific to areas involed in ULEZ expansion. For most people, cost of living is food inflation, energy prices, and mortgage rates getting hiked.

    How anyone in labour thought a £12.50 a day tax on using your car or van to go about your legal business was a good idea amazes me
    The desired outcome is laudable, but execution has been pathetic. Likewise 20mph in Wales. Dreadfully poorly implemented and pitch rolling. It's like Rishi suggested yesterday, Labour-Starmer arrogance and hubris will deliver Rishi the GE. Sheffield Rally anyone?
    The problem is that labour cannot stop being authoritarian when common sense should be the word
    It’s going to blow your mind when you find out who introduced ULEZ.

    Boris never proposed extending ULEZ to the London suburbs, it was only for inner London, it is Khan who has extended it to outer London
    Why is introducing ULEZ in inner London less authoritarian than doing it in outer London?

    Because IT IS. We have to do something about pollution so lets tax polluting cars. Huzzah. No no, not my car, their car.
    You are able to afford to drive a Tesla but attack those who cannot afford a ULEZ compliant car !!!
    We've done this. 20 year old bangers are ULEZ compliant. The political argument is that ULEZ is a tax on the working poor. The working poor generally do not have a car in London. Those who do either find that it is already compliant, or had to change car to one slightly newer because you can't daily drive something ancient and non-compliant as the running cost becomes prohibitive.

    I accept there will be a few edge cases - some diesels which really aren't suitable for local running about in London anyway. But almost all of the supposed victims of this are not victims.
    What is revealing in some of the anti-ULEZ arguments is that people can't seem to conceive of the fact that most poor people in London don't even have a car. It's as if these people don't even exist.
    Personally I find the cast of characters arguing against ULEZs - Susan Hall, Howard Cox, Foxy-Loxy and the Association of Bad Drivers - to be quite encouraging :smile: .

    Now off out. Have a good day, all.
    This divisive style of politics is self defeating. The chance of ULEZ being kept for 10 years+ is less because its champions are happy getting enough support to pass it, rather than bringing more of the public with them.

    Yes many of the anti ULEZ people are idiots, but that does not mean ULEZ fans do not have an obligation to listen to and where possible address complaints.
    I think ULEZ will have done it's job and be non-controversial within quite a short period. If the Govt targets are met, we will have broken the back of NOx pollution reduction by 2026-2028.

    This issue I have is that I have yet to hear a single credible argument against the LTN in London, or an alternative proposal, given the 2028 target for LAs set by the Conservative Government.

    Susan Hall seems to me to be either a fool, an ignoramus or a cynic - as she has claimed she will do things that the London Mayor does not have the power to do.

    I'm inclined to a similar assessment of Mark Harper, based on what he has done so far. The ABD and Howard Cox's group are pantomime performers.

    AFAICS all they have is the aim to create a divisive wedge issue and hope that enough people fall for it, which is why I keep calling it a Hail Mary pass. I suspect that is what we can also expect from Govt for the next year.
    The main problem with the proliferation of LTNs and huge overspending on cycling networks recently is they're hyped by a small number of very loud activists who are hugely keen on their pet hobby (cycling).

    This means that a) it fails to account for the needs of the majority of the population, who need to drive and b) creates resentment, because, like many of the Remainer activists in the 2017-19 Parliament, they're absolutely blinkered to alternative points of view.

    The silent majority aren't in favour of road closures, or ULEZ etc zones.

    The silent majority of which you speak seem pretty noisy to me, loudly asserting their right to untrammeled car driving.
    When their liberties are taken away, of course.

    One of my bugbears is people moving to a place and then complaining about situations that should have been obvious when they moved there. Next to schools, cricket grounds, outskirts of cities etc.
    For quite a while in this small town there were complaints about noise from people who had fairly recently moved into houses next door to long-standing pubs.
    By longstanding I mean three or four centuries old.
    Several Herefordshire villages had problems with people moving in next to a church and then complaining about the noise of the bells.
    Church bells are lovely.

    I used to live next to a mosque, which would wake me up at 5am.
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    I'll FPT this one, though I'm out for a couple of hours. I'll address replies after lunch, if anyone is interested.

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pete, worth remembering the UK has generally very positive views of migrants, including compared to other European nations.

    Also, I think you're misreading this, though understandably.

    For what it's worth, my view is this is a cost of living matter, and one that (unusually) can be laid squarely on Labour's door. It's highly specific to areas involed in ULEZ expansion. For most people, cost of living is food inflation, energy prices, and mortgage rates getting hiked.

    How anyone in labour thought a £12.50 a day tax on using your car or van to go about your legal business was a good idea amazes me
    The desired outcome is laudable, but execution has been pathetic. Likewise 20mph in Wales. Dreadfully poorly implemented and pitch rolling. It's like Rishi suggested yesterday, Labour-Starmer arrogance and hubris will deliver Rishi the GE. Sheffield Rally anyone?
    The problem is that labour cannot stop being authoritarian when common sense should be the word
    It’s going to blow your mind when you find out who introduced ULEZ.

    Boris never proposed extending ULEZ to the London suburbs, it was only for inner London, it is Khan who has extended it to outer London
    Why is introducing ULEZ in inner London less authoritarian than doing it in outer London?

    Because IT IS. We have to do something about pollution so lets tax polluting cars. Huzzah. No no, not my car, their car.
    You are able to afford to drive a Tesla but attack those who cannot afford a ULEZ compliant car !!!
    We've done this. 20 year old bangers are ULEZ compliant. The political argument is that ULEZ is a tax on the working poor. The working poor generally do not have a car in London. Those who do either find that it is already compliant, or had to change car to one slightly newer because you can't daily drive something ancient and non-compliant as the running cost becomes prohibitive.

    I accept there will be a few edge cases - some diesels which really aren't suitable for local running about in London anyway. But almost all of the supposed victims of this are not victims.
    What is revealing in some of the anti-ULEZ arguments is that people can't seem to conceive of the fact that most poor people in London don't even have a car. It's as if these people don't even exist.
    Personally I find the cast of characters arguing against ULEZs - Susan Hall, Howard Cox, Foxy-Loxy and the Association of Bad Drivers - to be quite encouraging :smile: .

    Now off out. Have a good day, all.
    This divisive style of politics is self defeating. The chance of ULEZ being kept for 10 years+ is less because its champions are happy getting enough support to pass it, rather than bringing more of the public with them.

    Yes many of the anti ULEZ people are idiots, but that does not mean ULEZ fans do not have an obligation to listen to and where possible address complaints.
    I think ULEZ will have done it's job and be non-controversial within quite a short period. If the Govt targets are met, we will have broken the back of NOx pollution reduction by 2026-2028.

    This issue I have is that I have yet to hear a single credible argument against the LTN in London, or an alternative proposal, given the 2028 target for LAs set by the Conservative Government.

    Susan Hall seems to me to be either a fool, an ignoramus or a cynic - as she has claimed she will do things that the London Mayor does not have the power to do.

    I'm inclined to a similar assessment of Mark Harper, based on what he has done so far. The ABD and Howard Cox's group are pantomime performers.

    AFAICS all they have is the aim to create a divisive wedge issue and hope that enough people fall for it, which is why I keep calling it a Hail Mary pass. I suspect that is what we can also expect from Govt for the next year.
    The main problem with the proliferation of LTNs and huge overspending on cycling networks recently is they're hyped by a small number of very loud activists who are hugely keen on their pet hobby (cycling).

    This means that a) it fails to account for the needs of the majority of the population, who need to drive and b) creates resentment, because, like many of the Remainer activists in the 2017-19 Parliament, they're absolutely blinkered to alternative points of view.

    The silent majority aren't in favour of road closures, or ULEZ etc zones.

    The silent majority of which you speak seem pretty noisy to me, loudly asserting their right to untrammeled car driving.
    When their liberties are taken away, of course.

    One of my bugbears is people moving to a place and then complaining about situations that should have been obvious when they moved there. Next to schools, cricket grounds, outskirts of cities etc.
    For quite a while in this small town there were complaints about noise from people who had fairly recently moved into houses next door to long-standing pubs.
    By longstanding I mean three or four centuries old.
    Several Herefordshire villages had problems with people moving in next to a church and then complaining about the noise of the bells.
    Church bells are lovely.

    I used to live next to a mosque, which would wake me up at 5am.
    For what it’s worth, our worst ‘waking up’ was at a seaside hotel in Bridport. At about 4am on a summer morning we discovered it was the favourite meeting place for a couple of dozen local seagulls, who screamed at each other for an hour or so! We tried to scare them off but they came back and carried on!
    They are often noisy because they are hard of herring.
    Are you having one of your terns?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,352
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    I'll FPT this one, though I'm out for a couple of hours. I'll address replies after lunch, if anyone is interested.

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pete, worth remembering the UK has generally very positive views of migrants, including compared to other European nations.

    Also, I think you're misreading this, though understandably.

    For what it's worth, my view is this is a cost of living matter, and one that (unusually) can be laid squarely on Labour's door. It's highly specific to areas involed in ULEZ expansion. For most people, cost of living is food inflation, energy prices, and mortgage rates getting hiked.

    How anyone in labour thought a £12.50 a day tax on using your car or van to go about your legal business was a good idea amazes me
    The desired outcome is laudable, but execution has been pathetic. Likewise 20mph in Wales. Dreadfully poorly implemented and pitch rolling. It's like Rishi suggested yesterday, Labour-Starmer arrogance and hubris will deliver Rishi the GE. Sheffield Rally anyone?
    The problem is that labour cannot stop being authoritarian when common sense should be the word
    It’s going to blow your mind when you find out who introduced ULEZ.

    Boris never proposed extending ULEZ to the London suburbs, it was only for inner London, it is Khan who has extended it to outer London
    Why is introducing ULEZ in inner London less authoritarian than doing it in outer London?

    Because IT IS. We have to do something about pollution so lets tax polluting cars. Huzzah. No no, not my car, their car.
    You are able to afford to drive a Tesla but attack those who cannot afford a ULEZ compliant car !!!
    We've done this. 20 year old bangers are ULEZ compliant. The political argument is that ULEZ is a tax on the working poor. The working poor generally do not have a car in London. Those who do either find that it is already compliant, or had to change car to one slightly newer because you can't daily drive something ancient and non-compliant as the running cost becomes prohibitive.

    I accept there will be a few edge cases - some diesels which really aren't suitable for local running about in London anyway. But almost all of the supposed victims of this are not victims.
    What is revealing in some of the anti-ULEZ arguments is that people can't seem to conceive of the fact that most poor people in London don't even have a car. It's as if these people don't even exist.
    Personally I find the cast of characters arguing against ULEZs - Susan Hall, Howard Cox, Foxy-Loxy and the Association of Bad Drivers - to be quite encouraging :smile: .

    Now off out. Have a good day, all.
    This divisive style of politics is self defeating. The chance of ULEZ being kept for 10 years+ is less because its champions are happy getting enough support to pass it, rather than bringing more of the public with them.

    Yes many of the anti ULEZ people are idiots, but that does not mean ULEZ fans do not have an obligation to listen to and where possible address complaints.
    I think ULEZ will have done it's job and be non-controversial within quite a short period. If the Govt targets are met, we will have broken the back of NOx pollution reduction by 2026-2028.

    This issue I have is that I have yet to hear a single credible argument against the LTN in London, or an alternative proposal, given the 2028 target for LAs set by the Conservative Government.

    Susan Hall seems to me to be either a fool, an ignoramus or a cynic - as she has claimed she will do things that the London Mayor does not have the power to do.

    I'm inclined to a similar assessment of Mark Harper, based on what he has done so far. The ABD and Howard Cox's group are pantomime performers.

    AFAICS all they have is the aim to create a divisive wedge issue and hope that enough people fall for it, which is why I keep calling it a Hail Mary pass. I suspect that is what we can also expect from Govt for the next year.
    The main problem with the proliferation of LTNs and huge overspending on cycling networks recently is they're hyped by a small number of very loud activists who are hugely keen on their pet hobby (cycling).

    This means that a) it fails to account for the needs of the majority of the population, who need to drive and b) creates resentment, because, like many of the Remainer activists in the 2017-19 Parliament, they're absolutely blinkered to alternative points of view.

    The silent majority aren't in favour of road closures, or ULEZ etc zones.

    The silent majority of which you speak seem pretty noisy to me, loudly asserting their right to untrammeled car driving.
    When their liberties are taken away, of course.

    One of my bugbears is people moving to a place and then complaining about situations that should have been obvious when they moved there. Next to schools, cricket grounds, outskirts of cities etc.
    For quite a while in this small town there were complaints about noise from people who had fairly recently moved into houses next door to long-standing pubs.
    By longstanding I mean three or four centuries old.
    Several Herefordshire villages had problems with people moving in next to a church and then complaining about the noise of the bells.
    Church bells are lovely.

    I used to live next to a mosque, which would wake me up at 5am.
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    I'll FPT this one, though I'm out for a couple of hours. I'll address replies after lunch, if anyone is interested.

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pete, worth remembering the UK has generally very positive views of migrants, including compared to other European nations.

    Also, I think you're misreading this, though understandably.

    For what it's worth, my view is this is a cost of living matter, and one that (unusually) can be laid squarely on Labour's door. It's highly specific to areas involed in ULEZ expansion. For most people, cost of living is food inflation, energy prices, and mortgage rates getting hiked.

    How anyone in labour thought a £12.50 a day tax on using your car or van to go about your legal business was a good idea amazes me
    The desired outcome is laudable, but execution has been pathetic. Likewise 20mph in Wales. Dreadfully poorly implemented and pitch rolling. It's like Rishi suggested yesterday, Labour-Starmer arrogance and hubris will deliver Rishi the GE. Sheffield Rally anyone?
    The problem is that labour cannot stop being authoritarian when common sense should be the word
    It’s going to blow your mind when you find out who introduced ULEZ.

    Boris never proposed extending ULEZ to the London suburbs, it was only for inner London, it is Khan who has extended it to outer London
    Why is introducing ULEZ in inner London less authoritarian than doing it in outer London?

    Because IT IS. We have to do something about pollution so lets tax polluting cars. Huzzah. No no, not my car, their car.
    You are able to afford to drive a Tesla but attack those who cannot afford a ULEZ compliant car !!!
    We've done this. 20 year old bangers are ULEZ compliant. The political argument is that ULEZ is a tax on the working poor. The working poor generally do not have a car in London. Those who do either find that it is already compliant, or had to change car to one slightly newer because you can't daily drive something ancient and non-compliant as the running cost becomes prohibitive.

    I accept there will be a few edge cases - some diesels which really aren't suitable for local running about in London anyway. But almost all of the supposed victims of this are not victims.
    What is revealing in some of the anti-ULEZ arguments is that people can't seem to conceive of the fact that most poor people in London don't even have a car. It's as if these people don't even exist.
    Personally I find the cast of characters arguing against ULEZs - Susan Hall, Howard Cox, Foxy-Loxy and the Association of Bad Drivers - to be quite encouraging :smile: .

    Now off out. Have a good day, all.
    This divisive style of politics is self defeating. The chance of ULEZ being kept for 10 years+ is less because its champions are happy getting enough support to pass it, rather than bringing more of the public with them.

    Yes many of the anti ULEZ people are idiots, but that does not mean ULEZ fans do not have an obligation to listen to and where possible address complaints.
    I think ULEZ will have done it's job and be non-controversial within quite a short period. If the Govt targets are met, we will have broken the back of NOx pollution reduction by 2026-2028.

    This issue I have is that I have yet to hear a single credible argument against the LTN in London, or an alternative proposal, given the 2028 target for LAs set by the Conservative Government.

    Susan Hall seems to me to be either a fool, an ignoramus or a cynic - as she has claimed she will do things that the London Mayor does not have the power to do.

    I'm inclined to a similar assessment of Mark Harper, based on what he has done so far. The ABD and Howard Cox's group are pantomime performers.

    AFAICS all they have is the aim to create a divisive wedge issue and hope that enough people fall for it, which is why I keep calling it a Hail Mary pass. I suspect that is what we can also expect from Govt for the next year.
    The main problem with the proliferation of LTNs and huge overspending on cycling networks recently is they're hyped by a small number of very loud activists who are hugely keen on their pet hobby (cycling).

    This means that a) it fails to account for the needs of the majority of the population, who need to drive and b) creates resentment, because, like many of the Remainer activists in the 2017-19 Parliament, they're absolutely blinkered to alternative points of view.

    The silent majority aren't in favour of road closures, or ULEZ etc zones.

    The silent majority of which you speak seem pretty noisy to me, loudly asserting their right to untrammeled car driving.
    When their liberties are taken away, of course.

    One of my bugbears is people moving to a place and then complaining about situations that should have been obvious when they moved there. Next to schools, cricket grounds, outskirts of cities etc.
    For quite a while in this small town there were complaints about noise from people who had fairly recently moved into houses next door to long-standing pubs.
    By longstanding I mean three or four centuries old.
    Several Herefordshire villages had problems with people moving in next to a church and then complaining about the noise of the bells.
    Church bells are lovely.

    I used to live next to a mosque, which would wake me up at 5am.
    For what it’s worth, our worst ‘waking up’ was at a seaside hotel in Bridport. At about 4am on a summer morning we discovered it was the favourite meeting place for a couple of dozen local seagulls, who screamed at each other for an hour or so! We tried to scare them off but they came back and carried on!
    They are often noisy because they are hard of herring.
    And a bloody nuisance when you're trying to get a peaceful kip. Er...
    I thought that pun might smoke out an attempt or two from the usual suspects
  • TresTres Posts: 2,724
    edited July 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/jul/22/is-housing-crisis-killing-romance-modern-dating-jane-austen

    For those who aren't keen on cricket, or are waiting for it to resume: the relevance of Miss Austen's romances to our time. More about modern economics than novel plot and style analysis, however.

    'When I mention to friends the prospect of a “Jane Austen-style, housing-based marriage market”, they laugh, then grow more thoughtful. “I mean, whenever we have an argument, I think, ‘Would I want to have to sell up and find somewhere to live?’ The answer’s no,” says one. Another puts it bluntly: “My rent would double if we broke up.” A third laughs: “I’m never breaking up with him – we have a lovely home. Oh, and I love him.”'

    Just need to bring back Jane Austen style Vicarages for Vicars rather than having old Rectories mostly now owned privately by bankers and lawyers
    I used to live next to a vicarage. The vicar's widow got evicted after the vicar died.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,721
    TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    I'll FPT this one, though I'm out for a couple of hours. I'll address replies after lunch, if anyone is interested.

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pete, worth remembering the UK has generally very positive views of migrants, including compared to other European nations.

    Also, I think you're misreading this, though understandably.

    For what it's worth, my view is this is a cost of living matter, and one that (unusually) can be laid squarely on Labour's door. It's highly specific to areas involed in ULEZ expansion. For most people, cost of living is food inflation, energy prices, and mortgage rates getting hiked.

    How anyone in labour thought a £12.50 a day tax on using your car or van to go about your legal business was a good idea amazes me
    The desired outcome is laudable, but execution has been pathetic. Likewise 20mph in Wales. Dreadfully poorly implemented and pitch rolling. It's like Rishi suggested yesterday, Labour-Starmer arrogance and hubris will deliver Rishi the GE. Sheffield Rally anyone?
    The problem is that labour cannot stop being authoritarian when common sense should be the word
    It’s going to blow your mind when you find out who introduced ULEZ.

    Boris never proposed extending ULEZ to the London suburbs, it was only for inner London, it is Khan who has extended it to outer London
    Why is introducing ULEZ in inner London less authoritarian than doing it in outer London?

    Because IT IS. We have to do something about pollution so lets tax polluting cars. Huzzah. No no, not my car, their car.
    You are able to afford to drive a Tesla but attack those who cannot afford a ULEZ compliant car !!!
    We've done this. 20 year old bangers are ULEZ compliant. The political argument is that ULEZ is a tax on the working poor. The working poor generally do not have a car in London. Those who do either find that it is already compliant, or had to change car to one slightly newer because you can't daily drive something ancient and non-compliant as the running cost becomes prohibitive.

    I accept there will be a few edge cases - some diesels which really aren't suitable for local running about in London anyway. But almost all of the supposed victims of this are not victims.
    What is revealing in some of the anti-ULEZ arguments is that people can't seem to conceive of the fact that most poor people in London don't even have a car. It's as if these people don't even exist.
    Personally I find the cast of characters arguing against ULEZs - Susan Hall, Howard Cox, Foxy-Loxy and the Association of Bad Drivers - to be quite encouraging :smile: .

    Now off out. Have a good day, all.
    This divisive style of politics is self defeating. The chance of ULEZ being kept for 10 years+ is less because its champions are happy getting enough support to pass it, rather than bringing more of the public with them.

    Yes many of the anti ULEZ people are idiots, but that does not mean ULEZ fans do not have an obligation to listen to and where possible address complaints.
    I think ULEZ will have done it's job and be non-controversial within quite a short period. If the Govt targets are met, we will have broken the back of NOx pollution reduction by 2026-2028.

    This issue I have is that I have yet to hear a single credible argument against the LTN in London, or an alternative proposal, given the 2028 target for LAs set by the Conservative Government.

    Susan Hall seems to me to be either a fool, an ignoramus or a cynic - as she has claimed she will do things that the London Mayor does not have the power to do.

    I'm inclined to a similar assessment of Mark Harper, based on what he has done so far. The ABD and Howard Cox's group are pantomime performers.

    AFAICS all they have is the aim to create a divisive wedge issue and hope that enough people fall for it, which is why I keep calling it a Hail Mary pass. I suspect that is what we can also expect from Govt for the next year.
    The main problem with the proliferation of LTNs and huge overspending on cycling networks recently is they're hyped by a small number of very loud activists who are hugely keen on their pet hobby (cycling).

    This means that a) it fails to account for the needs of the majority of the population, who need to drive and b) creates resentment, because, like many of the Remainer activists in the 2017-19 Parliament, they're absolutely blinkered to alternative points of view.

    The silent majority aren't in favour of road closures, or ULEZ etc zones.

    The silent majority of which you speak seem pretty noisy to me, loudly asserting their right to untrammeled car driving.
    When their liberties are taken away, of course.

    One of my bugbears is people moving to a place and then complaining about situations that should have been obvious when they moved there. Next to schools, cricket grounds, outskirts of cities etc.
    For quite a while in this small town there were complaints about noise from people who had fairly recently moved into houses next door to long-standing pubs.
    By longstanding I mean three or four centuries old.
    Several Herefordshire villages had problems with people moving in next to a church and then complaining about the noise of the bells.
    Church bells are lovely.

    I used to live next to a mosque, which would wake me up at 5am.
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    I'll FPT this one, though I'm out for a couple of hours. I'll address replies after lunch, if anyone is interested.

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pete, worth remembering the UK has generally very positive views of migrants, including compared to other European nations.

    Also, I think you're misreading this, though understandably.

    For what it's worth, my view is this is a cost of living matter, and one that (unusually) can be laid squarely on Labour's door. It's highly specific to areas involed in ULEZ expansion. For most people, cost of living is food inflation, energy prices, and mortgage rates getting hiked.

    How anyone in labour thought a £12.50 a day tax on using your car or van to go about your legal business was a good idea amazes me
    The desired outcome is laudable, but execution has been pathetic. Likewise 20mph in Wales. Dreadfully poorly implemented and pitch rolling. It's like Rishi suggested yesterday, Labour-Starmer arrogance and hubris will deliver Rishi the GE. Sheffield Rally anyone?
    The problem is that labour cannot stop being authoritarian when common sense should be the word
    It’s going to blow your mind when you find out who introduced ULEZ.

    Boris never proposed extending ULEZ to the London suburbs, it was only for inner London, it is Khan who has extended it to outer London
    Why is introducing ULEZ in inner London less authoritarian than doing it in outer London?

    Because IT IS. We have to do something about pollution so lets tax polluting cars. Huzzah. No no, not my car, their car.
    You are able to afford to drive a Tesla but attack those who cannot afford a ULEZ compliant car !!!
    We've done this. 20 year old bangers are ULEZ compliant. The political argument is that ULEZ is a tax on the working poor. The working poor generally do not have a car in London. Those who do either find that it is already compliant, or had to change car to one slightly newer because you can't daily drive something ancient and non-compliant as the running cost becomes prohibitive.

    I accept there will be a few edge cases - some diesels which really aren't suitable for local running about in London anyway. But almost all of the supposed victims of this are not victims.
    What is revealing in some of the anti-ULEZ arguments is that people can't seem to conceive of the fact that most poor people in London don't even have a car. It's as if these people don't even exist.
    Personally I find the cast of characters arguing against ULEZs - Susan Hall, Howard Cox, Foxy-Loxy and the Association of Bad Drivers - to be quite encouraging :smile: .

    Now off out. Have a good day, all.
    This divisive style of politics is self defeating. The chance of ULEZ being kept for 10 years+ is less because its champions are happy getting enough support to pass it, rather than bringing more of the public with them.

    Yes many of the anti ULEZ people are idiots, but that does not mean ULEZ fans do not have an obligation to listen to and where possible address complaints.
    I think ULEZ will have done it's job and be non-controversial within quite a short period. If the Govt targets are met, we will have broken the back of NOx pollution reduction by 2026-2028.

    This issue I have is that I have yet to hear a single credible argument against the LTN in London, or an alternative proposal, given the 2028 target for LAs set by the Conservative Government.

    Susan Hall seems to me to be either a fool, an ignoramus or a cynic - as she has claimed she will do things that the London Mayor does not have the power to do.

    I'm inclined to a similar assessment of Mark Harper, based on what he has done so far. The ABD and Howard Cox's group are pantomime performers.

    AFAICS all they have is the aim to create a divisive wedge issue and hope that enough people fall for it, which is why I keep calling it a Hail Mary pass. I suspect that is what we can also expect from Govt for the next year.
    The main problem with the proliferation of LTNs and huge overspending on cycling networks recently is they're hyped by a small number of very loud activists who are hugely keen on their pet hobby (cycling).

    This means that a) it fails to account for the needs of the majority of the population, who need to drive and b) creates resentment, because, like many of the Remainer activists in the 2017-19 Parliament, they're absolutely blinkered to alternative points of view.

    The silent majority aren't in favour of road closures, or ULEZ etc zones.

    The silent majority of which you speak seem pretty noisy to me, loudly asserting their right to untrammeled car driving.
    When their liberties are taken away, of course.

    One of my bugbears is people moving to a place and then complaining about situations that should have been obvious when they moved there. Next to schools, cricket grounds, outskirts of cities etc.
    For quite a while in this small town there were complaints about noise from people who had fairly recently moved into houses next door to long-standing pubs.
    By longstanding I mean three or four centuries old.
    Several Herefordshire villages had problems with people moving in next to a church and then complaining about the noise of the bells.
    Church bells are lovely.

    I used to live next to a mosque, which would wake me up at 5am.
    For what it’s worth, our worst ‘waking up’ was at a seaside hotel in Bridport. At about 4am on a summer morning we discovered it was the favourite meeting place for a couple of dozen local seagulls, who screamed at each other for an hour or so! We tried to scare them off but they came back and carried on!
    Growing up by the coast I like the sound of seagulls and can sleep through it quite easily.
    The most unpleasant wake up around here is foxes copulating, which by the sound of it is not always entirely consensual.
    Similar with cats.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,778

    rcs1000 said:

    If Nato isn't prepared, in spite of its enormous naval supremacy in the region, to stand up to Russia in and around the Black sea, what message does that send to China over Taiwan?

    On the other hand, (most of) Taiwan is across a significant stretch of the Pacific Ocean, defended by a well armed adversory. Said adversory has a modern air force with latest gen F16s and Dassault fighters. As well as a growing fleet of submarines.
    So why is the US so obsessive about not being outmanned in terms of ships etc vs China. I just cannot understand the contrast between the US willingness to confront China in the pacific with its feeble approach to confronting Russia in Ukraine.

    Good point about the F-16s. So the US is happy to give them to a non-UN recognised state but not happy to give them to Ukraine thus far.
    The US aim is to weaken Russia and ensure Europe's strategic dependence as a side quest. Ukraine is just a convenient anvil on which to hammer the Russians. So the optimum amount of aid to Ukraine is that which stops them getting completely fucked this weekend. A long war suits that purpose and they don't want to destabilise the Russian Federation too much as that would be to China's benefit.

    I hope Zelensky remembers the traditional fate of US assets like Diem, Noriega, Saddam, bin Laden and Ghani.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,352
    TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    I'll FPT this one, though I'm out for a couple of hours. I'll address replies after lunch, if anyone is interested.

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pete, worth remembering the UK has generally very positive views of migrants, including compared to other European nations.

    Also, I think you're misreading this, though understandably.

    For what it's worth, my view is this is a cost of living matter, and one that (unusually) can be laid squarely on Labour's door. It's highly specific to areas involed in ULEZ expansion. For most people, cost of living is food inflation, energy prices, and mortgage rates getting hiked.

    How anyone in labour thought a £12.50 a day tax on using your car or van to go about your legal business was a good idea amazes me
    The desired outcome is laudable, but execution has been pathetic. Likewise 20mph in Wales. Dreadfully poorly implemented and pitch rolling. It's like Rishi suggested yesterday, Labour-Starmer arrogance and hubris will deliver Rishi the GE. Sheffield Rally anyone?
    The problem is that labour cannot stop being authoritarian when common sense should be the word
    It’s going to blow your mind when you find out who introduced ULEZ.

    Boris never proposed extending ULEZ to the London suburbs, it was only for inner London, it is Khan who has extended it to outer London
    Why is introducing ULEZ in inner London less authoritarian than doing it in outer London?

    Because IT IS. We have to do something about pollution so lets tax polluting cars. Huzzah. No no, not my car, their car.
    You are able to afford to drive a Tesla but attack those who cannot afford a ULEZ compliant car !!!
    We've done this. 20 year old bangers are ULEZ compliant. The political argument is that ULEZ is a tax on the working poor. The working poor generally do not have a car in London. Those who do either find that it is already compliant, or had to change car to one slightly newer because you can't daily drive something ancient and non-compliant as the running cost becomes prohibitive.

    I accept there will be a few edge cases - some diesels which really aren't suitable for local running about in London anyway. But almost all of the supposed victims of this are not victims.
    What is revealing in some of the anti-ULEZ arguments is that people can't seem to conceive of the fact that most poor people in London don't even have a car. It's as if these people don't even exist.
    Personally I find the cast of characters arguing against ULEZs - Susan Hall, Howard Cox, Foxy-Loxy and the Association of Bad Drivers - to be quite encouraging :smile: .

    Now off out. Have a good day, all.
    This divisive style of politics is self defeating. The chance of ULEZ being kept for 10 years+ is less because its champions are happy getting enough support to pass it, rather than bringing more of the public with them.

    Yes many of the anti ULEZ people are idiots, but that does not mean ULEZ fans do not have an obligation to listen to and where possible address complaints.
    I think ULEZ will have done it's job and be non-controversial within quite a short period. If the Govt targets are met, we will have broken the back of NOx pollution reduction by 2026-2028.

    This issue I have is that I have yet to hear a single credible argument against the LTN in London, or an alternative proposal, given the 2028 target for LAs set by the Conservative Government.

    Susan Hall seems to me to be either a fool, an ignoramus or a cynic - as she has claimed she will do things that the London Mayor does not have the power to do.

    I'm inclined to a similar assessment of Mark Harper, based on what he has done so far. The ABD and Howard Cox's group are pantomime performers.

    AFAICS all they have is the aim to create a divisive wedge issue and hope that enough people fall for it, which is why I keep calling it a Hail Mary pass. I suspect that is what we can also expect from Govt for the next year.
    The main problem with the proliferation of LTNs and huge overspending on cycling networks recently is they're hyped by a small number of very loud activists who are hugely keen on their pet hobby (cycling).

    This means that a) it fails to account for the needs of the majority of the population, who need to drive and b) creates resentment, because, like many of the Remainer activists in the 2017-19 Parliament, they're absolutely blinkered to alternative points of view.

    The silent majority aren't in favour of road closures, or ULEZ etc zones.

    The silent majority of which you speak seem pretty noisy to me, loudly asserting their right to untrammeled car driving.
    When their liberties are taken away, of course.

    One of my bugbears is people moving to a place and then complaining about situations that should have been obvious when they moved there. Next to schools, cricket grounds, outskirts of cities etc.
    For quite a while in this small town there were complaints about noise from people who had fairly recently moved into houses next door to long-standing pubs.
    By longstanding I mean three or four centuries old.
    Several Herefordshire villages had problems with people moving in next to a church and then complaining about the noise of the bells.
    Church bells are lovely.

    I used to live next to a mosque, which would wake me up at 5am.
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    I'll FPT this one, though I'm out for a couple of hours. I'll address replies after lunch, if anyone is interested.

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pete, worth remembering the UK has generally very positive views of migrants, including compared to other European nations.

    Also, I think you're misreading this, though understandably.

    For what it's worth, my view is this is a cost of living matter, and one that (unusually) can be laid squarely on Labour's door. It's highly specific to areas involed in ULEZ expansion. For most people, cost of living is food inflation, energy prices, and mortgage rates getting hiked.

    How anyone in labour thought a £12.50 a day tax on using your car or van to go about your legal business was a good idea amazes me
    The desired outcome is laudable, but execution has been pathetic. Likewise 20mph in Wales. Dreadfully poorly implemented and pitch rolling. It's like Rishi suggested yesterday, Labour-Starmer arrogance and hubris will deliver Rishi the GE. Sheffield Rally anyone?
    The problem is that labour cannot stop being authoritarian when common sense should be the word
    It’s going to blow your mind when you find out who introduced ULEZ.

    Boris never proposed extending ULEZ to the London suburbs, it was only for inner London, it is Khan who has extended it to outer London
    Why is introducing ULEZ in inner London less authoritarian than doing it in outer London?

    Because IT IS. We have to do something about pollution so lets tax polluting cars. Huzzah. No no, not my car, their car.
    You are able to afford to drive a Tesla but attack those who cannot afford a ULEZ compliant car !!!
    We've done this. 20 year old bangers are ULEZ compliant. The political argument is that ULEZ is a tax on the working poor. The working poor generally do not have a car in London. Those who do either find that it is already compliant, or had to change car to one slightly newer because you can't daily drive something ancient and non-compliant as the running cost becomes prohibitive.

    I accept there will be a few edge cases - some diesels which really aren't suitable for local running about in London anyway. But almost all of the supposed victims of this are not victims.
    What is revealing in some of the anti-ULEZ arguments is that people can't seem to conceive of the fact that most poor people in London don't even have a car. It's as if these people don't even exist.
    Personally I find the cast of characters arguing against ULEZs - Susan Hall, Howard Cox, Foxy-Loxy and the Association of Bad Drivers - to be quite encouraging :smile: .

    Now off out. Have a good day, all.
    This divisive style of politics is self defeating. The chance of ULEZ being kept for 10 years+ is less because its champions are happy getting enough support to pass it, rather than bringing more of the public with them.

    Yes many of the anti ULEZ people are idiots, but that does not mean ULEZ fans do not have an obligation to listen to and where possible address complaints.
    I think ULEZ will have done it's job and be non-controversial within quite a short period. If the Govt targets are met, we will have broken the back of NOx pollution reduction by 2026-2028.

    This issue I have is that I have yet to hear a single credible argument against the LTN in London, or an alternative proposal, given the 2028 target for LAs set by the Conservative Government.

    Susan Hall seems to me to be either a fool, an ignoramus or a cynic - as she has claimed she will do things that the London Mayor does not have the power to do.

    I'm inclined to a similar assessment of Mark Harper, based on what he has done so far. The ABD and Howard Cox's group are pantomime performers.

    AFAICS all they have is the aim to create a divisive wedge issue and hope that enough people fall for it, which is why I keep calling it a Hail Mary pass. I suspect that is what we can also expect from Govt for the next year.
    The main problem with the proliferation of LTNs and huge overspending on cycling networks recently is they're hyped by a small number of very loud activists who are hugely keen on their pet hobby (cycling).

    This means that a) it fails to account for the needs of the majority of the population, who need to drive and b) creates resentment, because, like many of the Remainer activists in the 2017-19 Parliament, they're absolutely blinkered to alternative points of view.

    The silent majority aren't in favour of road closures, or ULEZ etc zones.

    The silent majority of which you speak seem pretty noisy to me, loudly asserting their right to untrammeled car driving.
    When their liberties are taken away, of course.

    One of my bugbears is people moving to a place and then complaining about situations that should have been obvious when they moved there. Next to schools, cricket grounds, outskirts of cities etc.
    For quite a while in this small town there were complaints about noise from people who had fairly recently moved into houses next door to long-standing pubs.
    By longstanding I mean three or four centuries old.
    Several Herefordshire villages had problems with people moving in next to a church and then complaining about the noise of the bells.
    Church bells are lovely.

    I used to live next to a mosque, which would wake me up at 5am.
    For what it’s worth, our worst ‘waking up’ was at a seaside hotel in Bridport. At about 4am on a summer morning we discovered it was the favourite meeting place for a couple of dozen local seagulls, who screamed at each other for an hour or so! We tried to scare them off but they came back and carried on!
    Growing up by the coast I like the sound of seagulls and can sleep through it quite easily.
    The most unpleasant wake up around here is foxes copulating, which by the sound of it is not always entirely consensual.
    It's actually the male that is howling in pain as his penis is constricted by the female. Male foxes obviously not too bright. They probably ought to consider identifying as a different gender
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,149
    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If Nato isn't prepared, in spite of its enormous naval supremacy in the region, to stand up to Russia in and around the Black sea, what message does that send to China over Taiwan?

    On the other hand, (most of) Taiwan is across a significant stretch of the Pacific Ocean, defended by a well armed adversory. Said adversory has a modern air force with latest gen F16s and Dassault fighters. As well as a growing fleet of submarines.
    So why is the US so obsessive about not being outmanned in terms of ships etc vs China. I just cannot understand the contrast between the US willingness to confront China in the pacific with its feeble approach to confronting Russia in Ukraine.

    Good point about the F-16s. So the US is happy to give them to a non-UN recognised state but not happy to give them to Ukraine thus far.
    The US aim is to weaken Russia and ensure Europe's strategic dependence as a side quest. Ukraine is just a convenient anvil on which to hammer the Russians. So the optimum amount of aid to Ukraine is that which stops them getting completely fucked this weekend. A long war suits that purpose and they don't want to destabilise the Russian Federation too much as that would be to China's benefit.

    I hope Zelensky remembers the traditional fate of US assets like Diem, Noriega, Saddam, bin Laden and Ghani.
    :innocent:

  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,352
    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If Nato isn't prepared, in spite of its enormous naval supremacy in the region, to stand up to Russia in and around the Black sea, what message does that send to China over Taiwan?

    On the other hand, (most of) Taiwan is across a significant stretch of the Pacific Ocean, defended by a well armed adversory. Said adversory has a modern air force with latest gen F16s and Dassault fighters. As well as a growing fleet of submarines.
    So why is the US so obsessive about not being outmanned in terms of ships etc vs China. I just cannot understand the contrast between the US willingness to confront China in the pacific with its feeble approach to confronting Russia in Ukraine.

    Good point about the F-16s. So the US is happy to give them to a non-UN recognised state but not happy to give them to Ukraine thus far.
    The US aim is to weaken Russia and ensure Europe's strategic dependence as a side quest. Ukraine is just a convenient anvil on which to hammer the Russians. So the optimum amount of aid to Ukraine is that which stops them getting completely fucked this weekend. A long war suits that purpose and they don't want to destabilise the Russian Federation too much as that would be to China's benefit.

    I hope Zelensky remembers the traditional fate of US assets like Diem, Noriega, Saddam, bin Laden and Ghani.
    The Gospel according to a Putin Apologist

    Vladimir thanks you for your obsequiousness to his vile cause and congratulates your commentary on the war so far which has been very aligned to his own predictions
  • TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    I'll FPT this one, though I'm out for a couple of hours. I'll address replies after lunch, if anyone is interested.

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pete, worth remembering the UK has generally very positive views of migrants, including compared to other European nations.

    Also, I think you're misreading this, though understandably.

    For what it's worth, my view is this is a cost of living matter, and one that (unusually) can be laid squarely on Labour's door. It's highly specific to areas involed in ULEZ expansion. For most people, cost of living is food inflation, energy prices, and mortgage rates getting hiked.

    How anyone in labour thought a £12.50 a day tax on using your car or van to go about your legal business was a good idea amazes me
    The desired outcome is laudable, but execution has been pathetic. Likewise 20mph in Wales. Dreadfully poorly implemented and pitch rolling. It's like Rishi suggested yesterday, Labour-Starmer arrogance and hubris will deliver Rishi the GE. Sheffield Rally anyone?
    The problem is that labour cannot stop being authoritarian when common sense should be the word
    It’s going to blow your mind when you find out who introduced ULEZ.

    Boris never proposed extending ULEZ to the London suburbs, it was only for inner London, it is Khan who has extended it to outer London
    Why is introducing ULEZ in inner London less authoritarian than doing it in outer London?

    Because IT IS. We have to do something about pollution so lets tax polluting cars. Huzzah. No no, not my car, their car.
    You are able to afford to drive a Tesla but attack those who cannot afford a ULEZ compliant car !!!
    We've done this. 20 year old bangers are ULEZ compliant. The political argument is that ULEZ is a tax on the working poor. The working poor generally do not have a car in London. Those who do either find that it is already compliant, or had to change car to one slightly newer because you can't daily drive something ancient and non-compliant as the running cost becomes prohibitive.

    I accept there will be a few edge cases - some diesels which really aren't suitable for local running about in London anyway. But almost all of the supposed victims of this are not victims.
    What is revealing in some of the anti-ULEZ arguments is that people can't seem to conceive of the fact that most poor people in London don't even have a car. It's as if these people don't even exist.
    Personally I find the cast of characters arguing against ULEZs - Susan Hall, Howard Cox, Foxy-Loxy and the Association of Bad Drivers - to be quite encouraging :smile: .

    Now off out. Have a good day, all.
    This divisive style of politics is self defeating. The chance of ULEZ being kept for 10 years+ is less because its champions are happy getting enough support to pass it, rather than bringing more of the public with them.

    Yes many of the anti ULEZ people are idiots, but that does not mean ULEZ fans do not have an obligation to listen to and where possible address complaints.
    I think ULEZ will have done it's job and be non-controversial within quite a short period. If the Govt targets are met, we will have broken the back of NOx pollution reduction by 2026-2028.

    This issue I have is that I have yet to hear a single credible argument against the LTN in London, or an alternative proposal, given the 2028 target for LAs set by the Conservative Government.

    Susan Hall seems to me to be either a fool, an ignoramus or a cynic - as she has claimed she will do things that the London Mayor does not have the power to do.

    I'm inclined to a similar assessment of Mark Harper, based on what he has done so far. The ABD and Howard Cox's group are pantomime performers.

    AFAICS all they have is the aim to create a divisive wedge issue and hope that enough people fall for it, which is why I keep calling it a Hail Mary pass. I suspect that is what we can also expect from Govt for the next year.
    The main problem with the proliferation of LTNs and huge overspending on cycling networks recently is they're hyped by a small number of very loud activists who are hugely keen on their pet hobby (cycling).

    This means that a) it fails to account for the needs of the majority of the population, who need to drive and b) creates resentment, because, like many of the Remainer activists in the 2017-19 Parliament, they're absolutely blinkered to alternative points of view.

    The silent majority aren't in favour of road closures, or ULEZ etc zones.

    The silent majority of which you speak seem pretty noisy to me, loudly asserting their right to untrammeled car driving.
    When their liberties are taken away, of course.

    One of my bugbears is people moving to a place and then complaining about situations that should have been obvious when they moved there. Next to schools, cricket grounds, outskirts of cities etc.
    For quite a while in this small town there were complaints about noise from people who had fairly recently moved into houses next door to long-standing pubs.
    By longstanding I mean three or four centuries old.
    Several Herefordshire villages had problems with people moving in next to a church and then complaining about the noise of the bells.
    Church bells are lovely.

    I used to live next to a mosque, which would wake me up at 5am.
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    I'll FPT this one, though I'm out for a couple of hours. I'll address replies after lunch, if anyone is interested.

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pete, worth remembering the UK has generally very positive views of migrants, including compared to other European nations.

    Also, I think you're misreading this, though understandably.

    For what it's worth, my view is this is a cost of living matter, and one that (unusually) can be laid squarely on Labour's door. It's highly specific to areas involed in ULEZ expansion. For most people, cost of living is food inflation, energy prices, and mortgage rates getting hiked.

    How anyone in labour thought a £12.50 a day tax on using your car or van to go about your legal business was a good idea amazes me
    The desired outcome is laudable, but execution has been pathetic. Likewise 20mph in Wales. Dreadfully poorly implemented and pitch rolling. It's like Rishi suggested yesterday, Labour-Starmer arrogance and hubris will deliver Rishi the GE. Sheffield Rally anyone?
    The problem is that labour cannot stop being authoritarian when common sense should be the word
    It’s going to blow your mind when you find out who introduced ULEZ.

    Boris never proposed extending ULEZ to the London suburbs, it was only for inner London, it is Khan who has extended it to outer London
    Why is introducing ULEZ in inner London less authoritarian than doing it in outer London?

    Because IT IS. We have to do something about pollution so lets tax polluting cars. Huzzah. No no, not my car, their car.
    You are able to afford to drive a Tesla but attack those who cannot afford a ULEZ compliant car !!!
    We've done this. 20 year old bangers are ULEZ compliant. The political argument is that ULEZ is a tax on the working poor. The working poor generally do not have a car in London. Those who do either find that it is already compliant, or had to change car to one slightly newer because you can't daily drive something ancient and non-compliant as the running cost becomes prohibitive.

    I accept there will be a few edge cases - some diesels which really aren't suitable for local running about in London anyway. But almost all of the supposed victims of this are not victims.
    What is revealing in some of the anti-ULEZ arguments is that people can't seem to conceive of the fact that most poor people in London don't even have a car. It's as if these people don't even exist.
    Personally I find the cast of characters arguing against ULEZs - Susan Hall, Howard Cox, Foxy-Loxy and the Association of Bad Drivers - to be quite encouraging :smile: .

    Now off out. Have a good day, all.
    This divisive style of politics is self defeating. The chance of ULEZ being kept for 10 years+ is less because its champions are happy getting enough support to pass it, rather than bringing more of the public with them.

    Yes many of the anti ULEZ people are idiots, but that does not mean ULEZ fans do not have an obligation to listen to and where possible address complaints.
    I think ULEZ will have done it's job and be non-controversial within quite a short period. If the Govt targets are met, we will have broken the back of NOx pollution reduction by 2026-2028.

    This issue I have is that I have yet to hear a single credible argument against the LTN in London, or an alternative proposal, given the 2028 target for LAs set by the Conservative Government.

    Susan Hall seems to me to be either a fool, an ignoramus or a cynic - as she has claimed she will do things that the London Mayor does not have the power to do.

    I'm inclined to a similar assessment of Mark Harper, based on what he has done so far. The ABD and Howard Cox's group are pantomime performers.

    AFAICS all they have is the aim to create a divisive wedge issue and hope that enough people fall for it, which is why I keep calling it a Hail Mary pass. I suspect that is what we can also expect from Govt for the next year.
    The main problem with the proliferation of LTNs and huge overspending on cycling networks recently is they're hyped by a small number of very loud activists who are hugely keen on their pet hobby (cycling).

    This means that a) it fails to account for the needs of the majority of the population, who need to drive and b) creates resentment, because, like many of the Remainer activists in the 2017-19 Parliament, they're absolutely blinkered to alternative points of view.

    The silent majority aren't in favour of road closures, or ULEZ etc zones.

    The silent majority of which you speak seem pretty noisy to me, loudly asserting their right to untrammeled car driving.
    When their liberties are taken away, of course.

    One of my bugbears is people moving to a place and then complaining about situations that should have been obvious when they moved there. Next to schools, cricket grounds, outskirts of cities etc.
    For quite a while in this small town there were complaints about noise from people who had fairly recently moved into houses next door to long-standing pubs.
    By longstanding I mean three or four centuries old.
    Several Herefordshire villages had problems with people moving in next to a church and then complaining about the noise of the bells.
    Church bells are lovely.

    I used to live next to a mosque, which would wake me up at 5am.
    For what it’s worth, our worst ‘waking up’ was at a seaside hotel in Bridport. At about 4am on a summer morning we discovered it was the favourite meeting place for a couple of dozen local seagulls, who screamed at each other for an hour or so! We tried to scare them off but they came back and carried on!
    Growing up by the coast I like the sound of seagulls and can sleep through it quite easily.
    The most unpleasant wake up around here is foxes copulating, which by the sound of it is not always entirely consensual.
    When will foxes finally learn that "WAAAHRGHHHHGHHH!!!!!" means "WAAAHRGHHHHGHHH!!!!!"?
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    It’s all quite bizarre

    As far as I can tell they’re having a re-enactment here of the Nazi Occupation. Complete with dudes in Nazi uniforms

    I’m in Przemysl - a few miles from the Ukrainian border. For context, 20,000 Jews died here, under the Nazis. A third of the town’s population



    Is Poland more interesting than you were expecting?
    He's pulling your plonker. He's only there for the re-enactment.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,263
    Inspection at 2pm.
    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    WAS OPPENHEIMER A COMMUNIST

    WHO CARES?
    WHY ARE WE SHOUTING? :)
    BEATS ME.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468

    TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    I'll FPT this one, though I'm out for a couple of hours. I'll address replies after lunch, if anyone is interested.

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pete, worth remembering the UK has generally very positive views of migrants, including compared to other European nations.

    Also, I think you're misreading this, though understandably.

    For what it's worth, my view is this is a cost of living matter, and one that (unusually) can be laid squarely on Labour's door. It's highly specific to areas involed in ULEZ expansion. For most people, cost of living is food inflation, energy prices, and mortgage rates getting hiked.

    How anyone in labour thought a £12.50 a day tax on using your car or van to go about your legal business was a good idea amazes me
    The desired outcome is laudable, but execution has been pathetic. Likewise 20mph in Wales. Dreadfully poorly implemented and pitch rolling. It's like Rishi suggested yesterday, Labour-Starmer arrogance and hubris will deliver Rishi the GE. Sheffield Rally anyone?
    The problem is that labour cannot stop being authoritarian when common sense should be the word
    It’s going to blow your mind when you find out who introduced ULEZ.

    Boris never proposed extending ULEZ to the London suburbs, it was only for inner London, it is Khan who has extended it to outer London
    Why is introducing ULEZ in inner London less authoritarian than doing it in outer London?

    Because IT IS. We have to do something about pollution so lets tax polluting cars. Huzzah. No no, not my car, their car.
    You are able to afford to drive a Tesla but attack those who cannot afford a ULEZ compliant car !!!
    We've done this. 20 year old bangers are ULEZ compliant. The political argument is that ULEZ is a tax on the working poor. The working poor generally do not have a car in London. Those who do either find that it is already compliant, or had to change car to one slightly newer because you can't daily drive something ancient and non-compliant as the running cost becomes prohibitive.

    I accept there will be a few edge cases - some diesels which really aren't suitable for local running about in London anyway. But almost all of the supposed victims of this are not victims.
    What is revealing in some of the anti-ULEZ arguments is that people can't seem to conceive of the fact that most poor people in London don't even have a car. It's as if these people don't even exist.
    Personally I find the cast of characters arguing against ULEZs - Susan Hall, Howard Cox, Foxy-Loxy and the Association of Bad Drivers - to be quite encouraging :smile: .

    Now off out. Have a good day, all.
    This divisive style of politics is self defeating. The chance of ULEZ being kept for 10 years+ is less because its champions are happy getting enough support to pass it, rather than bringing more of the public with them.

    Yes many of the anti ULEZ people are idiots, but that does not mean ULEZ fans do not have an obligation to listen to and where possible address complaints.
    I think ULEZ will have done it's job and be non-controversial within quite a short period. If the Govt targets are met, we will have broken the back of NOx pollution reduction by 2026-2028.

    This issue I have is that I have yet to hear a single credible argument against the LTN in London, or an alternative proposal, given the 2028 target for LAs set by the Conservative Government.

    Susan Hall seems to me to be either a fool, an ignoramus or a cynic - as she has claimed she will do things that the London Mayor does not have the power to do.

    I'm inclined to a similar assessment of Mark Harper, based on what he has done so far. The ABD and Howard Cox's group are pantomime performers.

    AFAICS all they have is the aim to create a divisive wedge issue and hope that enough people fall for it, which is why I keep calling it a Hail Mary pass. I suspect that is what we can also expect from Govt for the next year.
    The main problem with the proliferation of LTNs and huge overspending on cycling networks recently is they're hyped by a small number of very loud activists who are hugely keen on their pet hobby (cycling).

    This means that a) it fails to account for the needs of the majority of the population, who need to drive and b) creates resentment, because, like many of the Remainer activists in the 2017-19 Parliament, they're absolutely blinkered to alternative points of view.

    The silent majority aren't in favour of road closures, or ULEZ etc zones.

    The silent majority of which you speak seem pretty noisy to me, loudly asserting their right to untrammeled car driving.
    When their liberties are taken away, of course.

    One of my bugbears is people moving to a place and then complaining about situations that should have been obvious when they moved there. Next to schools, cricket grounds, outskirts of cities etc.
    For quite a while in this small town there were complaints about noise from people who had fairly recently moved into houses next door to long-standing pubs.
    By longstanding I mean three or four centuries old.
    Several Herefordshire villages had problems with people moving in next to a church and then complaining about the noise of the bells.
    Church bells are lovely.

    I used to live next to a mosque, which would wake me up at 5am.
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    I'll FPT this one, though I'm out for a couple of hours. I'll address replies after lunch, if anyone is interested.

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pete, worth remembering the UK has generally very positive views of migrants, including compared to other European nations.

    Also, I think you're misreading this, though understandably.

    For what it's worth, my view is this is a cost of living matter, and one that (unusually) can be laid squarely on Labour's door. It's highly specific to areas involed in ULEZ expansion. For most people, cost of living is food inflation, energy prices, and mortgage rates getting hiked.

    How anyone in labour thought a £12.50 a day tax on using your car or van to go about your legal business was a good idea amazes me
    The desired outcome is laudable, but execution has been pathetic. Likewise 20mph in Wales. Dreadfully poorly implemented and pitch rolling. It's like Rishi suggested yesterday, Labour-Starmer arrogance and hubris will deliver Rishi the GE. Sheffield Rally anyone?
    The problem is that labour cannot stop being authoritarian when common sense should be the word
    It’s going to blow your mind when you find out who introduced ULEZ.

    Boris never proposed extending ULEZ to the London suburbs, it was only for inner London, it is Khan who has extended it to outer London
    Why is introducing ULEZ in inner London less authoritarian than doing it in outer London?

    Because IT IS. We have to do something about pollution so lets tax polluting cars. Huzzah. No no, not my car, their car.
    You are able to afford to drive a Tesla but attack those who cannot afford a ULEZ compliant car !!!
    We've done this. 20 year old bangers are ULEZ compliant. The political argument is that ULEZ is a tax on the working poor. The working poor generally do not have a car in London. Those who do either find that it is already compliant, or had to change car to one slightly newer because you can't daily drive something ancient and non-compliant as the running cost becomes prohibitive.

    I accept there will be a few edge cases - some diesels which really aren't suitable for local running about in London anyway. But almost all of the supposed victims of this are not victims.
    What is revealing in some of the anti-ULEZ arguments is that people can't seem to conceive of the fact that most poor people in London don't even have a car. It's as if these people don't even exist.
    Personally I find the cast of characters arguing against ULEZs - Susan Hall, Howard Cox, Foxy-Loxy and the Association of Bad Drivers - to be quite encouraging :smile: .

    Now off out. Have a good day, all.
    This divisive style of politics is self defeating. The chance of ULEZ being kept for 10 years+ is less because its champions are happy getting enough support to pass it, rather than bringing more of the public with them.

    Yes many of the anti ULEZ people are idiots, but that does not mean ULEZ fans do not have an obligation to listen to and where possible address complaints.
    I think ULEZ will have done it's job and be non-controversial within quite a short period. If the Govt targets are met, we will have broken the back of NOx pollution reduction by 2026-2028.

    This issue I have is that I have yet to hear a single credible argument against the LTN in London, or an alternative proposal, given the 2028 target for LAs set by the Conservative Government.

    Susan Hall seems to me to be either a fool, an ignoramus or a cynic - as she has claimed she will do things that the London Mayor does not have the power to do.

    I'm inclined to a similar assessment of Mark Harper, based on what he has done so far. The ABD and Howard Cox's group are pantomime performers.

    AFAICS all they have is the aim to create a divisive wedge issue and hope that enough people fall for it, which is why I keep calling it a Hail Mary pass. I suspect that is what we can also expect from Govt for the next year.
    The main problem with the proliferation of LTNs and huge overspending on cycling networks recently is they're hyped by a small number of very loud activists who are hugely keen on their pet hobby (cycling).

    This means that a) it fails to account for the needs of the majority of the population, who need to drive and b) creates resentment, because, like many of the Remainer activists in the 2017-19 Parliament, they're absolutely blinkered to alternative points of view.

    The silent majority aren't in favour of road closures, or ULEZ etc zones.

    The silent majority of which you speak seem pretty noisy to me, loudly asserting their right to untrammeled car driving.
    When their liberties are taken away, of course.

    One of my bugbears is people moving to a place and then complaining about situations that should have been obvious when they moved there. Next to schools, cricket grounds, outskirts of cities etc.
    For quite a while in this small town there were complaints about noise from people who had fairly recently moved into houses next door to long-standing pubs.
    By longstanding I mean three or four centuries old.
    Several Herefordshire villages had problems with people moving in next to a church and then complaining about the noise of the bells.
    Church bells are lovely.

    I used to live next to a mosque, which would wake me up at 5am.
    For what it’s worth, our worst ‘waking up’ was at a seaside hotel in Bridport. At about 4am on a summer morning we discovered it was the favourite meeting place for a couple of dozen local seagulls, who screamed at each other for an hour or so! We tried to scare them off but they came back and carried on!
    Growing up by the coast I like the sound of seagulls and can sleep through it quite easily.
    The most unpleasant wake up around here is foxes copulating, which by the sound of it is not always entirely consensual.
    It's actually the male that is howling in pain as his penis is constricted by the female. Male foxes obviously not too bright. They probably ought to consider identifying as a different gender
    Don't gentlemen pay good money for that sort of thing in the racier parts of the Orient?

    Perhaps someone can inform us.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,959
    Report by Telegraph journalist Steven Edginton.

    "I was attacked in San Francisco by a gang of homeless drug addicts
    The Golden City’s plight is a warning of how the rest of the USA might go if it adopts the same radical, progressive policies"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/22/attacked-in-san-francisco-by-gang-of-homeless-drug-addicts/
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,772

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    I'll FPT this one, though I'm out for a couple of hours. I'll address replies after lunch, if anyone is interested.

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pete, worth remembering the UK has generally very positive views of migrants, including compared to other European nations.

    Also, I think you're misreading this, though understandably.

    For what it's worth, my view is this is a cost of living matter, and one that (unusually) can be laid squarely on Labour's door. It's highly specific to areas involed in ULEZ expansion. For most people, cost of living is food inflation, energy prices, and mortgage rates getting hiked.

    How anyone in labour thought a £12.50 a day tax on using your car or van to go about your legal business was a good idea amazes me
    The desired outcome is laudable, but execution has been pathetic. Likewise 20mph in Wales. Dreadfully poorly implemented and pitch rolling. It's like Rishi suggested yesterday, Labour-Starmer arrogance and hubris will deliver Rishi the GE. Sheffield Rally anyone?
    The problem is that labour cannot stop being authoritarian when common sense should be the word
    It’s going to blow your mind when you find out who introduced ULEZ.

    Boris never proposed extending ULEZ to the London suburbs, it was only for inner London, it is Khan who has extended it to outer London
    Why is introducing ULEZ in inner London less authoritarian than doing it in outer London?

    Because IT IS. We have to do something about pollution so lets tax polluting cars. Huzzah. No no, not my car, their car.
    You are able to afford to drive a Tesla but attack those who cannot afford a ULEZ compliant car !!!
    We've done this. 20 year old bangers are ULEZ compliant. The political argument is that ULEZ is a tax on the working poor. The working poor generally do not have a car in London. Those who do either find that it is already compliant, or had to change car to one slightly newer because you can't daily drive something ancient and non-compliant as the running cost becomes prohibitive.

    I accept there will be a few edge cases - some diesels which really aren't suitable for local running about in London anyway. But almost all of the supposed victims of this are not victims.
    What is revealing in some of the anti-ULEZ arguments is that people can't seem to conceive of the fact that most poor people in London don't even have a car. It's as if these people don't even exist.
    Personally I find the cast of characters arguing against ULEZs - Susan Hall, Howard Cox, Foxy-Loxy and the Association of Bad Drivers - to be quite encouraging :smile: .

    Now off out. Have a good day, all.
    This divisive style of politics is self defeating. The chance of ULEZ being kept for 10 years+ is less because its champions are happy getting enough support to pass it, rather than bringing more of the public with them.

    Yes many of the anti ULEZ people are idiots, but that does not mean ULEZ fans do not have an obligation to listen to and where possible address complaints.
    I think ULEZ will have done it's job and be non-controversial within quite a short period. If the Govt targets are met, we will have broken the back of NOx pollution reduction by 2026-2028.

    This issue I have is that I have yet to hear a single credible argument against the LTN in London, or an alternative proposal, given the 2028 target for LAs set by the Conservative Government.

    Susan Hall seems to me to be either a fool, an ignoramus or a cynic - as she has claimed she will do things that the London Mayor does not have the power to do.

    I'm inclined to a similar assessment of Mark Harper, based on what he has done so far. The ABD and Howard Cox's group are pantomime performers.

    AFAICS all they have is the aim to create a divisive wedge issue and hope that enough people fall for it, which is why I keep calling it a Hail Mary pass. I suspect that is what we can also expect from Govt for the next year.
    The main problem with the proliferation of LTNs and huge overspending on cycling networks recently is they're hyped by a small number of very loud activists who are hugely keen on their pet hobby (cycling).

    This means that a) it fails to account for the needs of the majority of the population, who need to drive and b) creates resentment, because, like many of the Remainer activists in the 2017-19 Parliament, they're absolutely blinkered to alternative points of view.

    The silent majority aren't in favour of road closures, or ULEZ etc zones.

    The silent majority of which you speak seem pretty noisy to me, loudly asserting their right to untrammeled car driving.
    When their liberties are taken away, of course.

    One of my bugbears is people moving to a place and then complaining about situations that should have been obvious when they moved there. Next to schools, cricket grounds, outskirts of cities etc.
    For quite a while in this small town there were complaints about noise from people who had fairly recently moved into houses next door to long-standing pubs.
    By longstanding I mean three or four centuries old.
    Several Herefordshire villages had problems with people moving in next to a church and then complaining about the noise of the bells.
    Church bells are lovely.

    I used to live next to a mosque, which would wake me up at 5am.
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    I'll FPT this one, though I'm out for a couple of hours. I'll address replies after lunch, if anyone is interested.

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pete, worth remembering the UK has generally very positive views of migrants, including compared to other European nations.

    Also, I think you're misreading this, though understandably.

    For what it's worth, my view is this is a cost of living matter, and one that (unusually) can be laid squarely on Labour's door. It's highly specific to areas involed in ULEZ expansion. For most people, cost of living is food inflation, energy prices, and mortgage rates getting hiked.

    How anyone in labour thought a £12.50 a day tax on using your car or van to go about your legal business was a good idea amazes me
    The desired outcome is laudable, but execution has been pathetic. Likewise 20mph in Wales. Dreadfully poorly implemented and pitch rolling. It's like Rishi suggested yesterday, Labour-Starmer arrogance and hubris will deliver Rishi the GE. Sheffield Rally anyone?
    The problem is that labour cannot stop being authoritarian when common sense should be the word
    It’s going to blow your mind when you find out who introduced ULEZ.

    Boris never proposed extending ULEZ to the London suburbs, it was only for inner London, it is Khan who has extended it to outer London
    Why is introducing ULEZ in inner London less authoritarian than doing it in outer London?

    Because IT IS. We have to do something about pollution so lets tax polluting cars. Huzzah. No no, not my car, their car.
    You are able to afford to drive a Tesla but attack those who cannot afford a ULEZ compliant car !!!
    We've done this. 20 year old bangers are ULEZ compliant. The political argument is that ULEZ is a tax on the working poor. The working poor generally do not have a car in London. Those who do either find that it is already compliant, or had to change car to one slightly newer because you can't daily drive something ancient and non-compliant as the running cost becomes prohibitive.

    I accept there will be a few edge cases - some diesels which really aren't suitable for local running about in London anyway. But almost all of the supposed victims of this are not victims.
    What is revealing in some of the anti-ULEZ arguments is that people can't seem to conceive of the fact that most poor people in London don't even have a car. It's as if these people don't even exist.
    Personally I find the cast of characters arguing against ULEZs - Susan Hall, Howard Cox, Foxy-Loxy and the Association of Bad Drivers - to be quite encouraging :smile: .

    Now off out. Have a good day, all.
    This divisive style of politics is self defeating. The chance of ULEZ being kept for 10 years+ is less because its champions are happy getting enough support to pass it, rather than bringing more of the public with them.

    Yes many of the anti ULEZ people are idiots, but that does not mean ULEZ fans do not have an obligation to listen to and where possible address complaints.
    I think ULEZ will have done it's job and be non-controversial within quite a short period. If the Govt targets are met, we will have broken the back of NOx pollution reduction by 2026-2028.

    This issue I have is that I have yet to hear a single credible argument against the LTN in London, or an alternative proposal, given the 2028 target for LAs set by the Conservative Government.

    Susan Hall seems to me to be either a fool, an ignoramus or a cynic - as she has claimed she will do things that the London Mayor does not have the power to do.

    I'm inclined to a similar assessment of Mark Harper, based on what he has done so far. The ABD and Howard Cox's group are pantomime performers.

    AFAICS all they have is the aim to create a divisive wedge issue and hope that enough people fall for it, which is why I keep calling it a Hail Mary pass. I suspect that is what we can also expect from Govt for the next year.
    The main problem with the proliferation of LTNs and huge overspending on cycling networks recently is they're hyped by a small number of very loud activists who are hugely keen on their pet hobby (cycling).

    This means that a) it fails to account for the needs of the majority of the population, who need to drive and b) creates resentment, because, like many of the Remainer activists in the 2017-19 Parliament, they're absolutely blinkered to alternative points of view.

    The silent majority aren't in favour of road closures, or ULEZ etc zones.

    The silent majority of which you speak seem pretty noisy to me, loudly asserting their right to untrammeled car driving.
    When their liberties are taken away, of course.

    One of my bugbears is people moving to a place and then complaining about situations that should have been obvious when they moved there. Next to schools, cricket grounds, outskirts of cities etc.
    For quite a while in this small town there were complaints about noise from people who had fairly recently moved into houses next door to long-standing pubs.
    By longstanding I mean three or four centuries old.
    Several Herefordshire villages had problems with people moving in next to a church and then complaining about the noise of the bells.
    Church bells are lovely.

    I used to live next to a mosque, which would wake me up at 5am.
    For what it’s worth, our worst ‘waking up’ was at a seaside hotel in Bridport. At about 4am on a summer morning we discovered it was the favourite meeting place for a couple of dozen local seagulls, who screamed at each other for an hour or so! We tried to scare them off but they came back and carried on!
    They are often noisy because they are hard of herring.
    And a bloody nuisance when you're trying to get a peaceful kip. Er...
    I thought that pun might smoke out an attempt or two from the usual suspects
    I couldn't be bothered to mak a real effort though.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,915
    edited July 2023
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Gosh, that was a sudden swerve.

    #todayissaturday

    ETA: And I'm not talking about the Jiggery Pokery ball feature currently running on TMS.

    It's funny because you could tell right from the start which way he was going to go, so it was fun waiting for the pivot.
    Yes there's a 'tone' that gives it away very quickly. I'd adjust the training to try and remove this if I were in charge. Come in with some centrist dad type, ultra orthodox, slightly left of centre takes on govt spending priorities. And be patient. Do this for a few weeks before entering the phone box and donning the cape. Play the long game. Putin is meant to be the master of that after all.
    Surely the first thing they need to address is: don’t use obviously compromised IP thingies which @rcs1000 can spot within 5 minutes?

    Everything else is pretty secondary

    The paradox is - and I hope I don’t get banned as a bot - quite a lot of the stuff the bot says is true. The Ukrainian offensive is not going well. Russia has mined every weed and pebble. And is entrenched. Attacking that is almost impossible - and can only be done at vast human cost. Somme-type quagmire

    The war is headed for a muddy stalemate, with neither side able to deliver a winning blow ...

    That's far from certain.

    None of us really know. It’s like watching a tenacious fifth wicket partnership in the second innings, waiting for the breakthrough, with rain clouds looming. The rain clouds being Western impatience and a Trump presidency.
    What's unclear is whether the asymmetric attrition of the current grind is sufficient to facilitate a Ukrainian breakthrough.

    Blinken was quoted yesterday as saying there's zero sign that Russia is serious about peace talks, FWIW.
    Asymmetric in what way? Do we even have reliable stats from either side?

    Offensive war is usually much more costly than defensive. So we can presume Ukraine is chewing through men and materiel
    Since early June Ukraine haven't made many direct assaults. They've been using artillery very effectively to destroy Russian artillery so that when they next attempt a major assault, Russia doesn't have the artillery to defend against it. The Russian commander who was recently relieved of his command in Zaporizhzhia for complaining about the lack of counter-battery ability lends some credence to the view that the attrition is in Ukraine's favour at present.

    Ukraine have also drawn Russia into a costly fight to defend Bakhmut, due to its political significance to Russia. Ukraine seem to be fighting in a very smart way to cause maximum damage to Russia while preserving their forces.
    Interesting. Evidence?
    The Russian general: https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ/status/1680812893342711809

    Russia's losses, as claimed by Ukraine: https://lookerstudio.google.com/u/0/reporting/dfbcec47-7b01-400e-ab21-de8eb98c8f3a/page/p_y5ofvcmazc?s=staTP1OHo_A
    These may well be an overestimate, but the general pattern is supported by confirmed losses as recorded by Oryx. The main thing to look at is the initial higher Russian tank losses at the start of June - this is when Ukraine attempted to make an armoured breakthrough and we had the photos of some Leopards and Bradleys lost.

    These have since reduced, indicating Ukraine isn't pushing against the front in such an intense way. However, if you look at the rate of Russian artillery losses you can see that these have been at a high level since the start of May (when Ukraine's shaping operations began).

    Interestingly Ukraine has been using HIMARS to target Russian artillery, air defence, etc, which indicates the importance they attach to degrading Russian artillery (and probably that the Russians no longer have any command points or animation dumps in range).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,263

    TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    I'll FPT this one, though I'm out for a couple of hours. I'll address replies after lunch, if anyone is interested.

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pete, worth remembering the UK has generally very positive views of migrants, including compared to other European nations.

    Also, I think you're misreading this, though understandably.

    For what it's worth, my view is this is a cost of living matter, and one that (unusually) can be laid squarely on Labour's door. It's highly specific to areas involed in ULEZ expansion. For most people, cost of living is food inflation, energy prices, and mortgage rates getting hiked.

    How anyone in labour thought a £12.50 a day tax on using your car or van to go about your legal business was a good idea amazes me
    The desired outcome is laudable, but execution has been pathetic. Likewise 20mph in Wales. Dreadfully poorly implemented and pitch rolling. It's like Rishi suggested yesterday, Labour-Starmer arrogance and hubris will deliver Rishi the GE. Sheffield Rally anyone?
    The problem is that labour cannot stop being authoritarian when common sense should be the word
    It’s going to blow your mind when you find out who introduced ULEZ.

    Boris never proposed extending ULEZ to the London suburbs, it was only for inner London, it is Khan who has extended it to outer London
    Why is introducing ULEZ in inner London less authoritarian than doing it in outer London?

    Because IT IS. We have to do something about pollution so lets tax polluting cars. Huzzah. No no, not my car, their car.
    You are able to afford to drive a Tesla but attack those who cannot afford a ULEZ compliant car !!!
    We've done this. 20 year old bangers are ULEZ compliant. The political argument is that ULEZ is a tax on the working poor. The working poor generally do not have a car in London. Those who do either find that it is already compliant, or had to change car to one slightly newer because you can't daily drive something ancient and non-compliant as the running cost becomes prohibitive.

    I accept there will be a few edge cases - some diesels which really aren't suitable for local running about in London anyway. But almost all of the supposed victims of this are not victims.
    What is revealing in some of the anti-ULEZ arguments is that people can't seem to conceive of the fact that most poor people in London don't even have a car. It's as if these people don't even exist.
    Personally I find the cast of characters arguing against ULEZs - Susan Hall, Howard Cox, Foxy-Loxy and the Association of Bad Drivers - to be quite encouraging :smile: .

    Now off out. Have a good day, all.
    This divisive style of politics is self defeating. The chance of ULEZ being kept for 10 years+ is less because its champions are happy getting enough support to pass it, rather than bringing more of the public with them.

    Yes many of the anti ULEZ people are idiots, but that does not mean ULEZ fans do not have an obligation to listen to and where possible address complaints.
    I think ULEZ will have done it's job and be non-controversial within quite a short period. If the Govt targets are met, we will have broken the back of NOx pollution reduction by 2026-2028.

    This issue I have is that I have yet to hear a single credible argument against the LTN in London, or an alternative proposal, given the 2028 target for LAs set by the Conservative Government.

    Susan Hall seems to me to be either a fool, an ignoramus or a cynic - as she has claimed she will do things that the London Mayor does not have the power to do.

    I'm inclined to a similar assessment of Mark Harper, based on what he has done so far. The ABD and Howard Cox's group are pantomime performers.

    AFAICS all they have is the aim to create a divisive wedge issue and hope that enough people fall for it, which is why I keep calling it a Hail Mary pass. I suspect that is what we can also expect from Govt for the next year.
    The main problem with the proliferation of LTNs and huge overspending on cycling networks recently is they're hyped by a small number of very loud activists who are hugely keen on their pet hobby (cycling).

    This means that a) it fails to account for the needs of the majority of the population, who need to drive and b) creates resentment, because, like many of the Remainer activists in the 2017-19 Parliament, they're absolutely blinkered to alternative points of view.

    The silent majority aren't in favour of road closures, or ULEZ etc zones.

    The silent majority of which you speak seem pretty noisy to me, loudly asserting their right to untrammeled car driving.
    When their liberties are taken away, of course.

    One of my bugbears is people moving to a place and then complaining about situations that should have been obvious when they moved there. Next to schools, cricket grounds, outskirts of cities etc.
    For quite a while in this small town there were complaints about noise from people who had fairly recently moved into houses next door to long-standing pubs.
    By longstanding I mean three or four centuries old.
    Several Herefordshire villages had problems with people moving in next to a church and then complaining about the noise of the bells.
    Church bells are lovely.

    I used to live next to a mosque, which would wake me up at 5am.
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    I'll FPT this one, though I'm out for a couple of hours. I'll address replies after lunch, if anyone is interested.

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pete, worth remembering the UK has generally very positive views of migrants, including compared to other European nations.

    Also, I think you're misreading this, though understandably.

    For what it's worth, my view is this is a cost of living matter, and one that (unusually) can be laid squarely on Labour's door. It's highly specific to areas involed in ULEZ expansion. For most people, cost of living is food inflation, energy prices, and mortgage rates getting hiked.

    How anyone in labour thought a £12.50 a day tax on using your car or van to go about your legal business was a good idea amazes me
    The desired outcome is laudable, but execution has been pathetic. Likewise 20mph in Wales. Dreadfully poorly implemented and pitch rolling. It's like Rishi suggested yesterday, Labour-Starmer arrogance and hubris will deliver Rishi the GE. Sheffield Rally anyone?
    The problem is that labour cannot stop being authoritarian when common sense should be the word
    It’s going to blow your mind when you find out who introduced ULEZ.

    Boris never proposed extending ULEZ to the London suburbs, it was only for inner London, it is Khan who has extended it to outer London
    Why is introducing ULEZ in inner London less authoritarian than doing it in outer London?

    Because IT IS. We have to do something about pollution so lets tax polluting cars. Huzzah. No no, not my car, their car.
    You are able to afford to drive a Tesla but attack those who cannot afford a ULEZ compliant car !!!
    We've done this. 20 year old bangers are ULEZ compliant. The political argument is that ULEZ is a tax on the working poor. The working poor generally do not have a car in London. Those who do either find that it is already compliant, or had to change car to one slightly newer because you can't daily drive something ancient and non-compliant as the running cost becomes prohibitive.

    I accept there will be a few edge cases - some diesels which really aren't suitable for local running about in London anyway. But almost all of the supposed victims of this are not victims.
    What is revealing in some of the anti-ULEZ arguments is that people can't seem to conceive of the fact that most poor people in London don't even have a car. It's as if these people don't even exist.
    Personally I find the cast of characters arguing against ULEZs - Susan Hall, Howard Cox, Foxy-Loxy and the Association of Bad Drivers - to be quite encouraging :smile: .

    Now off out. Have a good day, all.
    This divisive style of politics is self defeating. The chance of ULEZ being kept for 10 years+ is less because its champions are happy getting enough support to pass it, rather than bringing more of the public with them.

    Yes many of the anti ULEZ people are idiots, but that does not mean ULEZ fans do not have an obligation to listen to and where possible address complaints.
    I think ULEZ will have done it's job and be non-controversial within quite a short period. If the Govt targets are met, we will have broken the back of NOx pollution reduction by 2026-2028.

    This issue I have is that I have yet to hear a single credible argument against the LTN in London, or an alternative proposal, given the 2028 target for LAs set by the Conservative Government.

    Susan Hall seems to me to be either a fool, an ignoramus or a cynic - as she has claimed she will do things that the London Mayor does not have the power to do.

    I'm inclined to a similar assessment of Mark Harper, based on what he has done so far. The ABD and Howard Cox's group are pantomime performers.

    AFAICS all they have is the aim to create a divisive wedge issue and hope that enough people fall for it, which is why I keep calling it a Hail Mary pass. I suspect that is what we can also expect from Govt for the next year.
    The main problem with the proliferation of LTNs and huge overspending on cycling networks recently is they're hyped by a small number of very loud activists who are hugely keen on their pet hobby (cycling).

    This means that a) it fails to account for the needs of the majority of the population, who need to drive and b) creates resentment, because, like many of the Remainer activists in the 2017-19 Parliament, they're absolutely blinkered to alternative points of view.

    The silent majority aren't in favour of road closures, or ULEZ etc zones.

    The silent majority of which you speak seem pretty noisy to me, loudly asserting their right to untrammeled car driving.
    When their liberties are taken away, of course.

    One of my bugbears is people moving to a place and then complaining about situations that should have been obvious when they moved there. Next to schools, cricket grounds, outskirts of cities etc.
    For quite a while in this small town there were complaints about noise from people who had fairly recently moved into houses next door to long-standing pubs.
    By longstanding I mean three or four centuries old.
    Several Herefordshire villages had problems with people moving in next to a church and then complaining about the noise of the bells.
    Church bells are lovely.

    I used to live next to a mosque, which would wake me up at 5am.
    For what it’s worth, our worst ‘waking up’ was at a seaside hotel in Bridport. At about 4am on a summer morning we discovered it was the favourite meeting place for a couple of dozen local seagulls, who screamed at each other for an hour or so! We tried to scare them off but they came back and carried on!
    Growing up by the coast I like the sound of seagulls and can sleep through it quite easily.
    The most unpleasant wake up around here is foxes copulating, which by the sound of it is not always entirely consensual.
    It's actually the male that is howling in pain as his penis is constricted by the female. Male foxes obviously not too bright. They probably ought to consider identifying as a different gender
    Actually the ‘vixen scream’ is the female calling to attract mates.
    Foxes clearly have a different set of aesthetic values to us.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,947

    Off to see Oppenheimer this afternoon. First time in an actual cinema for years

    How is the back @MikeSmithson
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,959

    Off to see Oppenheimer this afternoon. First time in an actual cinema for years

    There are 3 films I'd like to see atm: Oppenheimer, Asteroid City, Mission Impossible (Dead Reckoning P1).
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215
    Andy_JS said:

    Off to see Oppenheimer this afternoon. First time in an actual cinema for years

    There are 3 films I'd like to see atm: Oppenheimer, Asteroid City, Mission Impossible (Dead Reckoning P1).
    Well I’m off this afternoon to watch Barbie with the children.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,820
    Andy_JS said:

    Off to see Oppenheimer this afternoon. First time in an actual cinema for years

    There are 3 films I'd like to see atm: Oppenheimer, Asteroid City, Mission Impossible (Dead Reckoning P1).
    asteroid city is typical Wes Andersen - i enjoyed it but then think grand hotel budapest is a top top film
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,772

    Nigelb said:

    Inspection at 2pm.

    Bloody Ofsted, working on a Saturday. Probably a safeguarding issue.
    They don't need to work on a Saturday to cause safeguarding issues given how badly they're being managed at the moment.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,337
    edited July 2023

    rcs1000 said:

    If Nato isn't prepared, in spite of its enormous naval supremacy in the region, to stand up to Russia in and around the Black sea, what message does that send to China over Taiwan?

    On the other hand, (most of) Taiwan is across a significant stretch of the Pacific Ocean, defended by a well armed adversory. Said adversory has a modern air force with latest gen F16s and Dassault fighters. As well as a growing fleet of submarines.
    So why is the US so obsessive about not being outmanned in terms of ships etc vs China. I just cannot understand the contrast between the US willingness to confront China in the pacific with its feeble approach to confronting Russia in Ukraine.

    Good point about the F-16s. So the US is happy to give them to a non-UN recognised state but not happy to give them to Ukraine thus far.
    Ukranian pilots are being trained on F-16s right now (edit: the NATO summit announced training to begin at the start of August). Historically, when the authorities announce something regarding military aid to Ukraine, that usually means that the thing has already been happening for some time on the quiet.

    It seems overwhelmingly likely that the moment the training program is complete F-16s will be transferred to Ukraine; the announcement will come a few days or weeks later when their presence in Ukraine becomes undeniable.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,478
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Inspection at 2pm.

    Bloody Ofsted, working on a Saturday. Probably a safeguarding issue.
    They don't need to work on a Saturday to cause safeguarding issues given how badly they're being managed at the moment.
    Ha. I knew you'd respond, somehow.....
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,437

    Off to see Oppenheimer this afternoon. First time in an actual cinema for years

    Only three hours but it will seem like years.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,774
     

    Nigelb said:

    Inspection at 2pm.

    Bloody Ofsted, working on a Saturday. Probably a safeguarding issue.
    Yes in Germany they call it Sam's tag

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,959

    Andy_JS said:

    Off to see Oppenheimer this afternoon. First time in an actual cinema for years

    There are 3 films I'd like to see atm: Oppenheimer, Asteroid City, Mission Impossible (Dead Reckoning P1).
    asteroid city is typical Wes Andersen - i enjoyed it but then think grand hotel budapest is a top top film
    I was just about to say I don't think I've seen any Wes Anderson films before, but I have seen Grand Hotel Budapest.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533

    Off to see Oppenheimer this afternoon. First time in an actual cinema for years

    Only three hours but it will seem like years.
    That doesn't sound like a glowing endorsement.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,772

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Inspection at 2pm.

    Bloody Ofsted, working on a Saturday. Probably a safeguarding issue.
    They don't need to work on a Saturday to cause safeguarding issues given how badly they're being managed at the moment.
    Ha. I knew you'd respond, somehow.....
    What do you make about this news that Sir Martin Oliver is to be the new Chief?* In among all the usual dishonest guff the DfE have put out about Spielman's successes I'd say he's got a very difficult job on his hands to repair the damage. Do you know whether he might be up to it?

    *I know officially he's only the preferred candidate but absolutely imploding in front of the Select Committee to the extent they recommended reopening the process didn't stop Spielman.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,395
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/jul/22/is-housing-crisis-killing-romance-modern-dating-jane-austen

    For those who aren't keen on cricket, or are waiting for it to resume: the relevance of Miss Austen's romances to our time. More about modern economics than novel plot and style analysis, however.

    'When I mention to friends the prospect of a “Jane Austen-style, housing-based marriage market”, they laugh, then grow more thoughtful. “I mean, whenever we have an argument, I think, ‘Would I want to have to sell up and find somewhere to live?’ The answer’s no,” says one. Another puts it bluntly: “My rent would double if we broke up.” A third laughs: “I’m never breaking up with him – we have a lovely home. Oh, and I love him.”'

    Just need to bring back Jane Austen style Vicarages for Vicars rather than having old Rectories mostly now owned privately by bankers and lawyers
    The Revs won't be able to afford to furnish, heat, light and repaint them, or cope with the gardens.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,395
    algarkirk said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/jul/22/is-housing-crisis-killing-romance-modern-dating-jane-austen

    For those who aren't keen on cricket, or are waiting for it to resume: the relevance of Miss Austen's romances to our time. More about modern economics than novel plot and style analysis, however.

    'When I mention to friends the prospect of a “Jane Austen-style, housing-based marriage market”, they laugh, then grow more thoughtful. “I mean, whenever we have an argument, I think, ‘Would I want to have to sell up and find somewhere to live?’ The answer’s no,” says one. Another puts it bluntly: “My rent would double if we broke up.” A third laughs: “I’m never breaking up with him – we have a lovely home. Oh, and I love him.”'

    There is a line in the headline, telling you all you need to know about how much the Guardian understands the world outside its narrow domain:

    "With homes almost beyond reach for all but the luckiest..."

    In much of ordinary, unfashionable, ignored, hard working England this is 'the lie direct'. I live in such a place.
    Scene is to do with young twentysomethings, though. Not folk who already have a place.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited July 2023
    Are the Lib Dems taking the bazball approach to politics? Don't worry about potential loses and size of loss, attack attack attack, such then when things start to swing your way, for you win big?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,772
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/jul/22/is-housing-crisis-killing-romance-modern-dating-jane-austen

    For those who aren't keen on cricket, or are waiting for it to resume: the relevance of Miss Austen's romances to our time. More about modern economics than novel plot and style analysis, however.

    'When I mention to friends the prospect of a “Jane Austen-style, housing-based marriage market”, they laugh, then grow more thoughtful. “I mean, whenever we have an argument, I think, ‘Would I want to have to sell up and find somewhere to live?’ The answer’s no,” says one. Another puts it bluntly: “My rent would double if we broke up.” A third laughs: “I’m never breaking up with him – we have a lovely home. Oh, and I love him.”'

    Just need to bring back Jane Austen style Vicarages for Vicars rather than having old Rectories mostly now owned privately by bankers and lawyers
    The Revs won't be able to afford to furnish, heat, light and repaint them, or cope with the gardens.
    Newent and Dymock had - and still have - two stunningly beautiful late Georgian rectories with elegant gardens.

    Divided into about five houses/flats now...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,035
    Phil said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If Nato isn't prepared, in spite of its enormous naval supremacy in the region, to stand up to Russia in and around the Black sea, what message does that send to China over Taiwan?

    On the other hand, (most of) Taiwan is across a significant stretch of the Pacific Ocean, defended by a well armed adversory. Said adversory has a modern air force with latest gen F16s and Dassault fighters. As well as a growing fleet of submarines.
    So why is the US so obsessive about not being outmanned in terms of ships etc vs China. I just cannot understand the contrast between the US willingness to confront China in the pacific with its feeble approach to confronting Russia in Ukraine.

    Good point about the F-16s. So the US is happy to give them to a non-UN recognised state but not happy to give them to Ukraine thus far.
    Ukranian pilots are being trained on F-16s right now (edit: the NATO summit announced training to begin at the start of August). Historically, when the authorities announce something regarding military aid to Ukraine, that usually means that the thing has already been happening for some time on the quiet.

    It seems overwhelmingly likely that the moment the training program is complete F-16s will be transferred to Ukraine; the announcement will come a few days or weeks later when their presence in Ukraine becomes undeniable.
    Those doing the F-16 training say they’ve been really impressed by the Ukranian pilots. They’re operated very differently to the MiGs and Sukhois which they were flying previously, but thankfully the pilots are learning quickly.

    The F-16s will open up a lot more weapons systems to the Ukranians, as opposed to the current efforts required to integrate each one into the existing aircraft fleet.

    Hopefully there have also been a lot more Ukranians doing basic pilot training since the war started.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,657
    2.45 start if no more rain
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,959

    2.45 start if no more rain

    I wasn't expecting any play today, so this is good news.
  • Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    I'll FPT this one, though I'm out for a couple of hours. I'll address replies after lunch, if anyone is interested.

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pete, worth remembering the UK has generally very positive views of migrants, including compared to other European nations.

    Also, I think you're misreading this, though understandably.

    For what it's worth, my view is this is a cost of living matter, and one that (unusually) can be laid squarely on Labour's door. It's highly specific to areas involed in ULEZ expansion. For most people, cost of living is food inflation, energy prices, and mortgage rates getting hiked.

    How anyone in labour thought a £12.50 a day tax on using your car or van to go about your legal business was a good idea amazes me
    The desired outcome is laudable, but execution has been pathetic. Likewise 20mph in Wales. Dreadfully poorly implemented and pitch rolling. It's like Rishi suggested yesterday, Labour-Starmer arrogance and hubris will deliver Rishi the GE. Sheffield Rally anyone?
    The problem is that labour cannot stop being authoritarian when common sense should be the word
    It’s going to blow your mind when you find out who introduced ULEZ.

    Boris never proposed extending ULEZ to the London suburbs, it was only for inner London, it is Khan who has extended it to outer London
    Why is introducing ULEZ in inner London less authoritarian than doing it in outer London?

    Because IT IS. We have to do something about pollution so lets tax polluting cars. Huzzah. No no, not my car, their car.
    You are able to afford to drive a Tesla but attack those who cannot afford a ULEZ compliant car !!!
    We've done this. 20 year old bangers are ULEZ compliant. The political argument is that ULEZ is a tax on the working poor. The working poor generally do not have a car in London. Those who do either find that it is already compliant, or had to change car to one slightly newer because you can't daily drive something ancient and non-compliant as the running cost becomes prohibitive.

    I accept there will be a few edge cases - some diesels which really aren't suitable for local running about in London anyway. But almost all of the supposed victims of this are not victims.
    What is revealing in some of the anti-ULEZ arguments is that people can't seem to conceive of the fact that most poor people in London don't even have a car. It's as if these people don't even exist.
    Personally I find the cast of characters arguing against ULEZs - Susan Hall, Howard Cox, Foxy-Loxy and the Association of Bad Drivers - to be quite encouraging :smile: .

    Now off out. Have a good day, all.
    This divisive style of politics is self defeating. The chance of ULEZ being kept for 10 years+ is less because its champions are happy getting enough support to pass it, rather than bringing more of the public with them.

    Yes many of the anti ULEZ people are idiots, but that does not mean ULEZ fans do not have an obligation to listen to and where possible address complaints.
    I think ULEZ will have done it's job and be non-controversial within quite a short period. If the Govt targets are met, we will have broken the back of NOx pollution reduction by 2026-2028.

    This issue I have is that I have yet to hear a single credible argument against the LTN in London, or an alternative proposal, given the 2028 target for LAs set by the Conservative Government.

    Susan Hall seems to me to be either a fool, an ignoramus or a cynic - as she has claimed she will do things that the London Mayor does not have the power to do.

    I'm inclined to a similar assessment of Mark Harper, based on what he has done so far. The ABD and Howard Cox's group are pantomime performers.

    AFAICS all they have is the aim to create a divisive wedge issue and hope that enough people fall for it, which is why I keep calling it a Hail Mary pass. I suspect that is what we can also expect from Govt for the next year.
    The main problem with the proliferation of LTNs and huge overspending on cycling networks recently is they're hyped by a small number of very loud activists who are hugely keen on their pet hobby (cycling).

    This means that a) it fails to account for the needs of the majority of the population, who need to drive and b) creates resentment, because, like many of the Remainer activists in the 2017-19 Parliament, they're absolutely blinkered to alternative points of view.

    The silent majority aren't in favour of road closures, or ULEZ etc zones.

    The silent majority of which you speak seem pretty noisy to me, loudly asserting their right to untrammeled car driving.
    When their liberties are taken away, of course.

    One of my bugbears is people moving to a place and then complaining about situations that should have been obvious when they moved there. Next to schools, cricket grounds, outskirts of cities etc.
    For quite a while in this small town there were complaints about noise from people who had fairly recently moved into houses next door to long-standing pubs.
    By longstanding I mean three or four centuries old.
    Several Herefordshire villages had problems with people moving in next to a church and then complaining about the noise of the bells.
    Church bells are lovely.

    I used to live next to a mosque, which would wake me up at 5am.
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    I'll FPT this one, though I'm out for a couple of hours. I'll address replies after lunch, if anyone is interested.

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pete, worth remembering the UK has generally very positive views of migrants, including compared to other European nations.

    Also, I think you're misreading this, though understandably.

    For what it's worth, my view is this is a cost of living matter, and one that (unusually) can be laid squarely on Labour's door. It's highly specific to areas involed in ULEZ expansion. For most people, cost of living is food inflation, energy prices, and mortgage rates getting hiked.

    How anyone in labour thought a £12.50 a day tax on using your car or van to go about your legal business was a good idea amazes me
    The desired outcome is laudable, but execution has been pathetic. Likewise 20mph in Wales. Dreadfully poorly implemented and pitch rolling. It's like Rishi suggested yesterday, Labour-Starmer arrogance and hubris will deliver Rishi the GE. Sheffield Rally anyone?
    The problem is that labour cannot stop being authoritarian when common sense should be the word
    It’s going to blow your mind when you find out who introduced ULEZ.

    Boris never proposed extending ULEZ to the London suburbs, it was only for inner London, it is Khan who has extended it to outer London
    Why is introducing ULEZ in inner London less authoritarian than doing it in outer London?

    Because IT IS. We have to do something about pollution so lets tax polluting cars. Huzzah. No no, not my car, their car.
    You are able to afford to drive a Tesla but attack those who cannot afford a ULEZ compliant car !!!
    We've done this. 20 year old bangers are ULEZ compliant. The political argument is that ULEZ is a tax on the working poor. The working poor generally do not have a car in London. Those who do either find that it is already compliant, or had to change car to one slightly newer because you can't daily drive something ancient and non-compliant as the running cost becomes prohibitive.

    I accept there will be a few edge cases - some diesels which really aren't suitable for local running about in London anyway. But almost all of the supposed victims of this are not victims.
    What is revealing in some of the anti-ULEZ arguments is that people can't seem to conceive of the fact that most poor people in London don't even have a car. It's as if these people don't even exist.
    Personally I find the cast of characters arguing against ULEZs - Susan Hall, Howard Cox, Foxy-Loxy and the Association of Bad Drivers - to be quite encouraging :smile: .

    Now off out. Have a good day, all.
    This divisive style of politics is self defeating. The chance of ULEZ being kept for 10 years+ is less because its champions are happy getting enough support to pass it, rather than bringing more of the public with them.

    Yes many of the anti ULEZ people are idiots, but that does not mean ULEZ fans do not have an obligation to listen to and where possible address complaints.
    I think ULEZ will have done it's job and be non-controversial within quite a short period. If the Govt targets are met, we will have broken the back of NOx pollution reduction by 2026-2028.

    This issue I have is that I have yet to hear a single credible argument against the LTN in London, or an alternative proposal, given the 2028 target for LAs set by the Conservative Government.

    Susan Hall seems to me to be either a fool, an ignoramus or a cynic - as she has claimed she will do things that the London Mayor does not have the power to do.

    I'm inclined to a similar assessment of Mark Harper, based on what he has done so far. The ABD and Howard Cox's group are pantomime performers.

    AFAICS all they have is the aim to create a divisive wedge issue and hope that enough people fall for it, which is why I keep calling it a Hail Mary pass. I suspect that is what we can also expect from Govt for the next year.
    The main problem with the proliferation of LTNs and huge overspending on cycling networks recently is they're hyped by a small number of very loud activists who are hugely keen on their pet hobby (cycling).

    This means that a) it fails to account for the needs of the majority of the population, who need to drive and b) creates resentment, because, like many of the Remainer activists in the 2017-19 Parliament, they're absolutely blinkered to alternative points of view.

    The silent majority aren't in favour of road closures, or ULEZ etc zones.

    The silent majority of which you speak seem pretty noisy to me, loudly asserting their right to untrammeled car driving.
    When their liberties are taken away, of course.

    One of my bugbears is people moving to a place and then complaining about situations that should have been obvious when they moved there. Next to schools, cricket grounds, outskirts of cities etc.
    For quite a while in this small town there were complaints about noise from people who had fairly recently moved into houses next door to long-standing pubs.
    By longstanding I mean three or four centuries old.
    Several Herefordshire villages had problems with people moving in next to a church and then complaining about the noise of the bells.
    Church bells are lovely.

    I used to live next to a mosque, which would wake me up at 5am.
    For what it’s worth, our worst ‘waking up’ was at a seaside hotel in Bridport. At about 4am on a summer morning we discovered it was the favourite meeting place for a couple of dozen local seagulls, who screamed at each other for an hour or so! We tried to scare them off but they came back and carried on!
    Growing up by the coast I like the sound of seagulls and can sleep through it quite easily.
    The most unpleasant wake up around here is foxes copulating, which by the sound of it is not always entirely consensual.
    It's actually the male that is howling in pain as his penis is constricted by the female. Male foxes obviously not too bright. They probably ought to consider identifying as a different gender
    Actually the ‘vixen scream’ is the female calling to attract mates.
    Foxes clearly have a different set of aesthetic values to us.
    Who else remembers Yates's Wine Lodges?

    Ah, them was the days.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    The chicken looks like they have a decent leg spinner action,

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/cricket/64959410

    Rehan Ahmed got a bit of competition.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,240
    Just spotted this summary of PPC selections in Oxfordshire:

    https://twitter.com/OxfordClarion/status/1682713230458667008

    I hadn't realised Labour is lagging so much. The LibDems and Conservatives have each selected five from the seven constituencies (the Cons would have done six were it not for Henley going tits-up). But Labour haven't selected any, other than the obvious of Anneliese Dodds re-standing in Oxford East. I know Henley isn't exactly prime Labour territory but they should have a chance in Banbury and possibly Witney.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,395

    2.45 start if no more rain

    Just been checking weather to see if the very light drizzle will let up here for putting laundtry out. Noticed Met Office yellow weather warning for rain tomorrow, N-ish England and N Wales, inc. Manc.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,352

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    I'll FPT this one, though I'm out for a couple of hours. I'll address replies after lunch, if anyone is interested.

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pete, worth remembering the UK has generally very positive views of migrants, including compared to other European nations.

    Also, I think you're misreading this, though understandably.

    For what it's worth, my view is this is a cost of living matter, and one that (unusually) can be laid squarely on Labour's door. It's highly specific to areas involed in ULEZ expansion. For most people, cost of living is food inflation, energy prices, and mortgage rates getting hiked.

    How anyone in labour thought a £12.50 a day tax on using your car or van to go about your legal business was a good idea amazes me
    The desired outcome is laudable, but execution has been pathetic. Likewise 20mph in Wales. Dreadfully poorly implemented and pitch rolling. It's like Rishi suggested yesterday, Labour-Starmer arrogance and hubris will deliver Rishi the GE. Sheffield Rally anyone?
    The problem is that labour cannot stop being authoritarian when common sense should be the word
    It’s going to blow your mind when you find out who introduced ULEZ.

    Boris never proposed extending ULEZ to the London suburbs, it was only for inner London, it is Khan who has extended it to outer London
    Why is introducing ULEZ in inner London less authoritarian than doing it in outer London?

    Because IT IS. We have to do something about pollution so lets tax polluting cars. Huzzah. No no, not my car, their car.
    You are able to afford to drive a Tesla but attack those who cannot afford a ULEZ compliant car !!!
    We've done this. 20 year old bangers are ULEZ compliant. The political argument is that ULEZ is a tax on the working poor. The working poor generally do not have a car in London. Those who do either find that it is already compliant, or had to change car to one slightly newer because you can't daily drive something ancient and non-compliant as the running cost becomes prohibitive.

    I accept there will be a few edge cases - some diesels which really aren't suitable for local running about in London anyway. But almost all of the supposed victims of this are not victims.
    What is revealing in some of the anti-ULEZ arguments is that people can't seem to conceive of the fact that most poor people in London don't even have a car. It's as if these people don't even exist.
    Personally I find the cast of characters arguing against ULEZs - Susan Hall, Howard Cox, Foxy-Loxy and the Association of Bad Drivers - to be quite encouraging :smile: .

    Now off out. Have a good day, all.
    This divisive style of politics is self defeating. The chance of ULEZ being kept for 10 years+ is less because its champions are happy getting enough support to pass it, rather than bringing more of the public with them.

    Yes many of the anti ULEZ people are idiots, but that does not mean ULEZ fans do not have an obligation to listen to and where possible address complaints.
    I think ULEZ will have done it's job and be non-controversial within quite a short period. If the Govt targets are met, we will have broken the back of NOx pollution reduction by 2026-2028.

    This issue I have is that I have yet to hear a single credible argument against the LTN in London, or an alternative proposal, given the 2028 target for LAs set by the Conservative Government.

    Susan Hall seems to me to be either a fool, an ignoramus or a cynic - as she has claimed she will do things that the London Mayor does not have the power to do.

    I'm inclined to a similar assessment of Mark Harper, based on what he has done so far. The ABD and Howard Cox's group are pantomime performers.

    AFAICS all they have is the aim to create a divisive wedge issue and hope that enough people fall for it, which is why I keep calling it a Hail Mary pass. I suspect that is what we can also expect from Govt for the next year.
    The main problem with the proliferation of LTNs and huge overspending on cycling networks recently is they're hyped by a small number of very loud activists who are hugely keen on their pet hobby (cycling).

    This means that a) it fails to account for the needs of the majority of the population, who need to drive and b) creates resentment, because, like many of the Remainer activists in the 2017-19 Parliament, they're absolutely blinkered to alternative points of view.

    The silent majority aren't in favour of road closures, or ULEZ etc zones.

    The silent majority of which you speak seem pretty noisy to me, loudly asserting their right to untrammeled car driving.
    When their liberties are taken away, of course.

    One of my bugbears is people moving to a place and then complaining about situations that should have been obvious when they moved there. Next to schools, cricket grounds, outskirts of cities etc.
    For quite a while in this small town there were complaints about noise from people who had fairly recently moved into houses next door to long-standing pubs.
    By longstanding I mean three or four centuries old.
    Several Herefordshire villages had problems with people moving in next to a church and then complaining about the noise of the bells.
    Church bells are lovely.

    I used to live next to a mosque, which would wake me up at 5am.
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    I'll FPT this one, though I'm out for a couple of hours. I'll address replies after lunch, if anyone is interested.

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pete, worth remembering the UK has generally very positive views of migrants, including compared to other European nations.

    Also, I think you're misreading this, though understandably.

    For what it's worth, my view is this is a cost of living matter, and one that (unusually) can be laid squarely on Labour's door. It's highly specific to areas involed in ULEZ expansion. For most people, cost of living is food inflation, energy prices, and mortgage rates getting hiked.

    How anyone in labour thought a £12.50 a day tax on using your car or van to go about your legal business was a good idea amazes me
    The desired outcome is laudable, but execution has been pathetic. Likewise 20mph in Wales. Dreadfully poorly implemented and pitch rolling. It's like Rishi suggested yesterday, Labour-Starmer arrogance and hubris will deliver Rishi the GE. Sheffield Rally anyone?
    The problem is that labour cannot stop being authoritarian when common sense should be the word
    It’s going to blow your mind when you find out who introduced ULEZ.

    Boris never proposed extending ULEZ to the London suburbs, it was only for inner London, it is Khan who has extended it to outer London
    Why is introducing ULEZ in inner London less authoritarian than doing it in outer London?

    Because IT IS. We have to do something about pollution so lets tax polluting cars. Huzzah. No no, not my car, their car.
    You are able to afford to drive a Tesla but attack those who cannot afford a ULEZ compliant car !!!
    We've done this. 20 year old bangers are ULEZ compliant. The political argument is that ULEZ is a tax on the working poor. The working poor generally do not have a car in London. Those who do either find that it is already compliant, or had to change car to one slightly newer because you can't daily drive something ancient and non-compliant as the running cost becomes prohibitive.

    I accept there will be a few edge cases - some diesels which really aren't suitable for local running about in London anyway. But almost all of the supposed victims of this are not victims.
    What is revealing in some of the anti-ULEZ arguments is that people can't seem to conceive of the fact that most poor people in London don't even have a car. It's as if these people don't even exist.
    Personally I find the cast of characters arguing against ULEZs - Susan Hall, Howard Cox, Foxy-Loxy and the Association of Bad Drivers - to be quite encouraging :smile: .

    Now off out. Have a good day, all.
    This divisive style of politics is self defeating. The chance of ULEZ being kept for 10 years+ is less because its champions are happy getting enough support to pass it, rather than bringing more of the public with them.

    Yes many of the anti ULEZ people are idiots, but that does not mean ULEZ fans do not have an obligation to listen to and where possible address complaints.
    I think ULEZ will have done it's job and be non-controversial within quite a short period. If the Govt targets are met, we will have broken the back of NOx pollution reduction by 2026-2028.

    This issue I have is that I have yet to hear a single credible argument against the LTN in London, or an alternative proposal, given the 2028 target for LAs set by the Conservative Government.

    Susan Hall seems to me to be either a fool, an ignoramus or a cynic - as she has claimed she will do things that the London Mayor does not have the power to do.

    I'm inclined to a similar assessment of Mark Harper, based on what he has done so far. The ABD and Howard Cox's group are pantomime performers.

    AFAICS all they have is the aim to create a divisive wedge issue and hope that enough people fall for it, which is why I keep calling it a Hail Mary pass. I suspect that is what we can also expect from Govt for the next year.
    The main problem with the proliferation of LTNs and huge overspending on cycling networks recently is they're hyped by a small number of very loud activists who are hugely keen on their pet hobby (cycling).

    This means that a) it fails to account for the needs of the majority of the population, who need to drive and b) creates resentment, because, like many of the Remainer activists in the 2017-19 Parliament, they're absolutely blinkered to alternative points of view.

    The silent majority aren't in favour of road closures, or ULEZ etc zones.

    The silent majority of which you speak seem pretty noisy to me, loudly asserting their right to untrammeled car driving.
    When their liberties are taken away, of course.

    One of my bugbears is people moving to a place and then complaining about situations that should have been obvious when they moved there. Next to schools, cricket grounds, outskirts of cities etc.
    For quite a while in this small town there were complaints about noise from people who had fairly recently moved into houses next door to long-standing pubs.
    By longstanding I mean three or four centuries old.
    Several Herefordshire villages had problems with people moving in next to a church and then complaining about the noise of the bells.
    Church bells are lovely.

    I used to live next to a mosque, which would wake me up at 5am.
    For what it’s worth, our worst ‘waking up’ was at a seaside hotel in Bridport. At about 4am on a summer morning we discovered it was the favourite meeting place for a couple of dozen local seagulls, who screamed at each other for an hour or so! We tried to scare them off but they came back and carried on!
    They are often noisy because they are hard of herring.
    Are you having one of your terns?
    It is because all the huffin' and puffin that people do on here
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,640
    Andy_JS said:

    2.45 start if no more rain

    I wasn't expecting any play today, so this is good news.
    Hopefully 6 quick wickets by 4pm 👍
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited July 2023

    2.45 start if no more rain

    Fire up the Quattro....I mean Mark Wood.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,395

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    I'll FPT this one, though I'm out for a couple of hours. I'll address replies after lunch, if anyone is interested.

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pete, worth remembering the UK has generally very positive views of migrants, including compared to other European nations.

    Also, I think you're misreading this, though understandably.

    For what it's worth, my view is this is a cost of living matter, and one that (unusually) can be laid squarely on Labour's door. It's highly specific to areas involed in ULEZ expansion. For most people, cost of living is food inflation, energy prices, and mortgage rates getting hiked.

    How anyone in labour thought a £12.50 a day tax on using your car or van to go about your legal business was a good idea amazes me
    The desired outcome is laudable, but execution has been pathetic. Likewise 20mph in Wales. Dreadfully poorly implemented and pitch rolling. It's like Rishi suggested yesterday, Labour-Starmer arrogance and hubris will deliver Rishi the GE. Sheffield Rally anyone?
    The problem is that labour cannot stop being authoritarian when common sense should be the word
    It’s going to blow your mind when you find out who introduced ULEZ.

    Boris never proposed extending ULEZ to the London suburbs, it was only for inner London, it is Khan who has extended it to outer London
    Why is introducing ULEZ in inner London less authoritarian than doing it in outer London?

    Because IT IS. We have to do something about pollution so lets tax polluting cars. Huzzah. No no, not my car, their car.
    You are able to afford to drive a Tesla but attack those who cannot afford a ULEZ compliant car !!!
    We've done this. 20 year old bangers are ULEZ compliant. The political argument is that ULEZ is a tax on the working poor. The working poor generally do not have a car in London. Those who do either find that it is already compliant, or had to change car to one slightly newer because you can't daily drive something ancient and non-compliant as the running cost becomes prohibitive.

    I accept there will be a few edge cases - some diesels which really aren't suitable for local running about in London anyway. But almost all of the supposed victims of this are not victims.
    What is revealing in some of the anti-ULEZ arguments is that people can't seem to conceive of the fact that most poor people in London don't even have a car. It's as if these people don't even exist.
    Personally I find the cast of characters arguing against ULEZs - Susan Hall, Howard Cox, Foxy-Loxy and the Association of Bad Drivers - to be quite encouraging :smile: .

    Now off out. Have a good day, all.
    This divisive style of politics is self defeating. The chance of ULEZ being kept for 10 years+ is less because its champions are happy getting enough support to pass it, rather than bringing more of the public with them.

    Yes many of the anti ULEZ people are idiots, but that does not mean ULEZ fans do not have an obligation to listen to and where possible address complaints.
    I think ULEZ will have done it's job and be non-controversial within quite a short period. If the Govt targets are met, we will have broken the back of NOx pollution reduction by 2026-2028.

    This issue I have is that I have yet to hear a single credible argument against the LTN in London, or an alternative proposal, given the 2028 target for LAs set by the Conservative Government.

    Susan Hall seems to me to be either a fool, an ignoramus or a cynic - as she has claimed she will do things that the London Mayor does not have the power to do.

    I'm inclined to a similar assessment of Mark Harper, based on what he has done so far. The ABD and Howard Cox's group are pantomime performers.

    AFAICS all they have is the aim to create a divisive wedge issue and hope that enough people fall for it, which is why I keep calling it a Hail Mary pass. I suspect that is what we can also expect from Govt for the next year.
    The main problem with the proliferation of LTNs and huge overspending on cycling networks recently is they're hyped by a small number of very loud activists who are hugely keen on their pet hobby (cycling).

    This means that a) it fails to account for the needs of the majority of the population, who need to drive and b) creates resentment, because, like many of the Remainer activists in the 2017-19 Parliament, they're absolutely blinkered to alternative points of view.

    The silent majority aren't in favour of road closures, or ULEZ etc zones.

    The silent majority of which you speak seem pretty noisy to me, loudly asserting their right to untrammeled car driving.
    When their liberties are taken away, of course.

    One of my bugbears is people moving to a place and then complaining about situations that should have been obvious when they moved there. Next to schools, cricket grounds, outskirts of cities etc.
    For quite a while in this small town there were complaints about noise from people who had fairly recently moved into houses next door to long-standing pubs.
    By longstanding I mean three or four centuries old.
    Several Herefordshire villages had problems with people moving in next to a church and then complaining about the noise of the bells.
    Church bells are lovely.

    I used to live next to a mosque, which would wake me up at 5am.
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    I'll FPT this one, though I'm out for a couple of hours. I'll address replies after lunch, if anyone is interested.

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pete, worth remembering the UK has generally very positive views of migrants, including compared to other European nations.

    Also, I think you're misreading this, though understandably.

    For what it's worth, my view is this is a cost of living matter, and one that (unusually) can be laid squarely on Labour's door. It's highly specific to areas involed in ULEZ expansion. For most people, cost of living is food inflation, energy prices, and mortgage rates getting hiked.

    How anyone in labour thought a £12.50 a day tax on using your car or van to go about your legal business was a good idea amazes me
    The desired outcome is laudable, but execution has been pathetic. Likewise 20mph in Wales. Dreadfully poorly implemented and pitch rolling. It's like Rishi suggested yesterday, Labour-Starmer arrogance and hubris will deliver Rishi the GE. Sheffield Rally anyone?
    The problem is that labour cannot stop being authoritarian when common sense should be the word
    It’s going to blow your mind when you find out who introduced ULEZ.

    Boris never proposed extending ULEZ to the London suburbs, it was only for inner London, it is Khan who has extended it to outer London
    Why is introducing ULEZ in inner London less authoritarian than doing it in outer London?

    Because IT IS. We have to do something about pollution so lets tax polluting cars. Huzzah. No no, not my car, their car.
    You are able to afford to drive a Tesla but attack those who cannot afford a ULEZ compliant car !!!
    We've done this. 20 year old bangers are ULEZ compliant. The political argument is that ULEZ is a tax on the working poor. The working poor generally do not have a car in London. Those who do either find that it is already compliant, or had to change car to one slightly newer because you can't daily drive something ancient and non-compliant as the running cost becomes prohibitive.

    I accept there will be a few edge cases - some diesels which really aren't suitable for local running about in London anyway. But almost all of the supposed victims of this are not victims.
    What is revealing in some of the anti-ULEZ arguments is that people can't seem to conceive of the fact that most poor people in London don't even have a car. It's as if these people don't even exist.
    Personally I find the cast of characters arguing against ULEZs - Susan Hall, Howard Cox, Foxy-Loxy and the Association of Bad Drivers - to be quite encouraging :smile: .

    Now off out. Have a good day, all.
    This divisive style of politics is self defeating. The chance of ULEZ being kept for 10 years+ is less because its champions are happy getting enough support to pass it, rather than bringing more of the public with them.

    Yes many of the anti ULEZ people are idiots, but that does not mean ULEZ fans do not have an obligation to listen to and where possible address complaints.
    I think ULEZ will have done it's job and be non-controversial within quite a short period. If the Govt targets are met, we will have broken the back of NOx pollution reduction by 2026-2028.

    This issue I have is that I have yet to hear a single credible argument against the LTN in London, or an alternative proposal, given the 2028 target for LAs set by the Conservative Government.

    Susan Hall seems to me to be either a fool, an ignoramus or a cynic - as she has claimed she will do things that the London Mayor does not have the power to do.

    I'm inclined to a similar assessment of Mark Harper, based on what he has done so far. The ABD and Howard Cox's group are pantomime performers.

    AFAICS all they have is the aim to create a divisive wedge issue and hope that enough people fall for it, which is why I keep calling it a Hail Mary pass. I suspect that is what we can also expect from Govt for the next year.
    The main problem with the proliferation of LTNs and huge overspending on cycling networks recently is they're hyped by a small number of very loud activists who are hugely keen on their pet hobby (cycling).

    This means that a) it fails to account for the needs of the majority of the population, who need to drive and b) creates resentment, because, like many of the Remainer activists in the 2017-19 Parliament, they're absolutely blinkered to alternative points of view.

    The silent majority aren't in favour of road closures, or ULEZ etc zones.

    The silent majority of which you speak seem pretty noisy to me, loudly asserting their right to untrammeled car driving.
    When their liberties are taken away, of course.

    One of my bugbears is people moving to a place and then complaining about situations that should have been obvious when they moved there. Next to schools, cricket grounds, outskirts of cities etc.
    For quite a while in this small town there were complaints about noise from people who had fairly recently moved into houses next door to long-standing pubs.
    By longstanding I mean three or four centuries old.
    Several Herefordshire villages had problems with people moving in next to a church and then complaining about the noise of the bells.
    Church bells are lovely.

    I used to live next to a mosque, which would wake me up at 5am.
    For what it’s worth, our worst ‘waking up’ was at a seaside hotel in Bridport. At about 4am on a summer morning we discovered it was the favourite meeting place for a couple of dozen local seagulls, who screamed at each other for an hour or so! We tried to scare them off but they came back and carried on!
    Growing up by the coast I like the sound of seagulls and can sleep through it quite easily.
    The most unpleasant wake up around here is foxes copulating, which by the sound of it is not always entirely consensual.
    It's actually the male that is howling in pain as his penis is constricted by the female. Male foxes obviously not too bright. They probably ought to consider identifying as a different gender
    Actually the ‘vixen scream’ is the female calling to attract mates.
    Foxes clearly have a different set of aesthetic values to us.
    Who else remembers Yates's Wine Lodges?

    Ah, them was the days.
    One in Bristol, I recall. Lots of foxes there too. No doubt not coincidental.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    I’m not in any hurry to see Oppenheimer. Just don’t think it’ll be as good as this:

    https://youtu.be/AlUHKHLk_VU
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,657

    Andy_JS said:

    2.45 start if no more rain

    I wasn't expecting any play today, so this is good news.
    Hopefully 6 quick wickets by 4pm 👍
    Apparently someone has said they only need 6 balls !!!!!!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,437

    Off to see Oppenheimer this afternoon. First time in an actual cinema for years

    Only three hours but it will seem like years.
    That doesn't sound like a glowing endorsement.
    Either films are getting longer or my bladder smaller and back weaker. Possibly all three.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,772

    Andy_JS said:

    2.45 start if no more rain

    I wasn't expecting any play today, so this is good news.
    Hopefully 6 quick wickets by 4pm 👍
    Labushagne century by 3 given our track record of predictions!
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    I'll FPT this one, though I'm out for a couple of hours. I'll address replies after lunch, if anyone is interested.

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pete, worth remembering the UK has generally very positive views of migrants, including compared to other European nations.

    Also, I think you're misreading this, though understandably.

    For what it's worth, my view is this is a cost of living matter, and one that (unusually) can be laid squarely on Labour's door. It's highly specific to areas involed in ULEZ expansion. For most people, cost of living is food inflation, energy prices, and mortgage rates getting hiked.

    How anyone in labour thought a £12.50 a day tax on using your car or van to go about your legal business was a good idea amazes me
    The desired outcome is laudable, but execution has been pathetic. Likewise 20mph in Wales. Dreadfully poorly implemented and pitch rolling. It's like Rishi suggested yesterday, Labour-Starmer arrogance and hubris will deliver Rishi the GE. Sheffield Rally anyone?
    The problem is that labour cannot stop being authoritarian when common sense should be the word
    It’s going to blow your mind when you find out who introduced ULEZ.

    Boris never proposed extending ULEZ to the London suburbs, it was only for inner London, it is Khan who has extended it to outer London
    Why is introducing ULEZ in inner London less authoritarian than doing it in outer London?

    Because IT IS. We have to do something about pollution so lets tax polluting cars. Huzzah. No no, not my car, their car.
    You are able to afford to drive a Tesla but attack those who cannot afford a ULEZ compliant car !!!
    We've done this. 20 year old bangers are ULEZ compliant. The political argument is that ULEZ is a tax on the working poor. The working poor generally do not have a car in London. Those who do either find that it is already compliant, or had to change car to one slightly newer because you can't daily drive something ancient and non-compliant as the running cost becomes prohibitive.

    I accept there will be a few edge cases - some diesels which really aren't suitable for local running about in London anyway. But almost all of the supposed victims of this are not victims.
    What is revealing in some of the anti-ULEZ arguments is that people can't seem to conceive of the fact that most poor people in London don't even have a car. It's as if these people don't even exist.
    Personally I find the cast of characters arguing against ULEZs - Susan Hall, Howard Cox, Foxy-Loxy and the Association of Bad Drivers - to be quite encouraging :smile: .

    Now off out. Have a good day, all.
    This divisive style of politics is self defeating. The chance of ULEZ being kept for 10 years+ is less because its champions are happy getting enough support to pass it, rather than bringing more of the public with them.

    Yes many of the anti ULEZ people are idiots, but that does not mean ULEZ fans do not have an obligation to listen to and where possible address complaints.
    I think ULEZ will have done it's job and be non-controversial within quite a short period. If the Govt targets are met, we will have broken the back of NOx pollution reduction by 2026-2028.

    This issue I have is that I have yet to hear a single credible argument against the LTN in London, or an alternative proposal, given the 2028 target for LAs set by the Conservative Government.

    Susan Hall seems to me to be either a fool, an ignoramus or a cynic - as she has claimed she will do things that the London Mayor does not have the power to do.

    I'm inclined to a similar assessment of Mark Harper, based on what he has done so far. The ABD and Howard Cox's group are pantomime performers.

    AFAICS all they have is the aim to create a divisive wedge issue and hope that enough people fall for it, which is why I keep calling it a Hail Mary pass. I suspect that is what we can also expect from Govt for the next year.
    The main problem with the proliferation of LTNs and huge overspending on cycling networks recently is they're hyped by a small number of very loud activists who are hugely keen on their pet hobby (cycling).

    This means that a) it fails to account for the needs of the majority of the population, who need to drive and b) creates resentment, because, like many of the Remainer activists in the 2017-19 Parliament, they're absolutely blinkered to alternative points of view.

    The silent majority aren't in favour of road closures, or ULEZ etc zones.

    The silent majority of which you speak seem pretty noisy to me, loudly asserting their right to untrammeled car driving.
    When their liberties are taken away, of course.

    One of my bugbears is people moving to a place and then complaining about situations that should have been obvious when they moved there. Next to schools, cricket grounds, outskirts of cities etc.
    For quite a while in this small town there were complaints about noise from people who had fairly recently moved into houses next door to long-standing pubs.
    By longstanding I mean three or four centuries old.
    In the good, old USA, similar types of complaints from newcomers (probably even to Newcomerstown, Ohio!) concern agricultural practices & etc. in rural areas, and AIRPORTS in urban/suburban areas.

    As for old and noisy "pubs" we call these "dive bars" and tend to regard them as either community treasures OR public nuisances. Often both!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,153
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    My local IMAX has pretty much sold out of Oppenheimer tickets for the whole week. Only a few odds and 2am screenings still available. Grr…

    Not-local IMAX has also sold out of Oppenheimer tickets until next weekend. Bugger.

    Those who have seen it, worth taking half a day off work to go to a morning screening?
    Hell yes.

    Brilliant apart from a two minute scene that made Harry S. Truman look like a snivelling little shit.

    Doesn’t the movie completely ignore the fact that Oppenheimer was a commie and someone leaked the nuke secrets to Stalin?

    Not that this makes it necessarily a bad film. Quite an omission if true, tho (I have not seen it)
    The whole fucking film is about Oppy being a Commie, and his wife, mistress, brother, sister in law, and all friends.
    Except he wasn't.
    Plenty of friends and relatives who were, though.

    The traitor who leaked from Los Alamos was a German Brit.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Fuchs
    (Good scientist, though, who did some fundamental work in the project.)
    Now I’m confused. So the movie says Oppenheimer was a communist - but he wasn’t? Quite the libel
    Oppenheimer at various times, described himself as a communist sympathiser - a fellow traveler. His brother was a full on, Stalin worshiper, who had contact with the NKVD.

    One suggestion for the weird lies Oppenheimer told during the war about being approached by the NKVD was that he was trying to get them away from his brother, because he was worried his brother was graduating to full treason.

    The weird lies were a big part of the reason he lost his security clearance after the war.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,929
    Interesting battle going on between the Fitzpatrick brothers at the Open, both -1 I believe.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited July 2023

    Off to see Oppenheimer this afternoon. First time in an actual cinema for years

    Only three hours but it will seem like years.
    That doesn't sound like a glowing endorsement.
    Either films are getting longer or my bladder smaller and back weaker. Possibly all three.
    I guess with all these big budget tv shows that last for 8-10hrs and how expensive going to the cinema is, I wonder if there is some sort of thought that they have to give the public more bang for their buck? And I don't think directors need any encouragement to leave more in the film than cutting it out.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Off to see Oppenheimer this afternoon. First time in an actual cinema for years

    Double feature with "Barbie"? And wearing your pink pork-pie hat!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,035
    So there’s a one-hour weather window at Old Trafford, and it’s going to completely coincide with the F1 qualifying.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,035

    Off to see Oppenheimer this afternoon. First time in an actual cinema for years

    Only three hours but it will seem like years.
    That doesn't sound like a glowing endorsement.
    Either films are getting longer or my bladder smaller and back weaker. Possibly all three.
    I guess with all these big budget tv shows that last for 8-10hrs and how expensive going to the cinema is, I wonder if there is some sort of thought that they have to give the public more bang for their buck? And I don't think directors need any encouragement to leave more in the film than cutting it out.
    I think your average crap movie is heading closer to 90’, so the cinemas can get in more screenings, but the big event movies are now 150’-180’.

    Really looking forward to Oppenheimer, first time in years I’ve gone looking for an IMAX, as the director intended. If they can go to so much effort when making the movie, it’s only right that their customers make the effort to watch it properly.

    I go to the cinema 3-4 times a year, and usually go to the local boutique cinema with a couple of dozen leather seats and a bar.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,915
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/22/sadiq-khan-mayor-u-turn-eco-wood-burners-pollution-fears

    "Wood burning in homes now produces more small particle pollution than all road traffic in the UK."

    You could do a lot more to reduce air pollution by banning wood burning stoves then with ULEZs. So why incur the massive political costs of a ULEZ?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,959

    Off to see Oppenheimer this afternoon. First time in an actual cinema for years

    Only three hours but it will seem like years.
    That doesn't sound like a glowing endorsement.
    Either films are getting longer or my bladder smaller and back weaker. Possibly all three.
    There are a lot of unnecessarily long films these days. I try to avoid them.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited July 2023

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    My local IMAX has pretty much sold out of Oppenheimer tickets for the whole week. Only a few odds and 2am screenings still available. Grr…

    Not-local IMAX has also sold out of Oppenheimer tickets until next weekend. Bugger.

    Those who have seen it, worth taking half a day off work to go to a morning screening?
    Hell yes.

    Brilliant apart from a two minute scene that made Harry S. Truman look like a snivelling little shit.

    Doesn’t the movie completely ignore the fact that Oppenheimer was a commie and someone leaked the nuke secrets to Stalin?

    Not that this makes it necessarily a bad film. Quite an omission if true, tho (I have not seen it)
    The whole fucking film is about Oppy being a Commie, and his wife, mistress, brother, sister in law, and all friends.
    Except he wasn't.
    Plenty of friends and relatives who were, though.

    The traitor who leaked from Los Alamos was a German Brit.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Fuchs
    (Good scientist, though, who did some fundamental work in the project.)
    Now I’m confused. So the movie says Oppenheimer was a communist - but he wasn’t? Quite the libel
    Oppenheimer at various times, described himself as a communist sympathiser - a fellow traveler. His brother was a full on, Stalin worshiper, who had contact with the NKVD.

    One suggestion for the weird lies Oppenheimer told during the war about being approached by the NKVD was that he was trying to get them away from his brother, because he was worried his brother was graduating to full treason.

    The weird lies were a big part of the reason he lost his security clearance after the war.
    His brother, his wife, many of his closest students and academics were all communists and had regular "discussion" groups and fundraisers....maybe he was just like Jeremy Corbyn when he saw an antisemitic mural or Boris when people were lugging in crates of booze into #10 for a "work" engagements, just didn't realise everybody close to him just happened to be a communist.

    * I actually think much more likely that Corbyn didn't fully grasp what he was showing support for, where as Oppenheimer more likely to be Boris having no idea about such (communist) parties.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,149

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/22/sadiq-khan-mayor-u-turn-eco-wood-burners-pollution-fears

    "Wood burning in homes now produces more small particle pollution than all road traffic in the UK."

    You could do a lot more to reduce air pollution by banning wood burning stoves then with ULEZs. So why incur the massive political costs of a ULEZ?

    Optics?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,035

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/22/sadiq-khan-mayor-u-turn-eco-wood-burners-pollution-fears

    "Wood burning in homes now produces more small particle pollution than all road traffic in the UK."

    You could do a lot more to reduce air pollution by banning wood burning stoves then with ULEZs. So why incur the massive political costs of a ULEZ?

    Because you can’t install a massive camera surveillance system under the pretence of banning wood burning stoves?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,416
    Regarding Mission Impossible, Barbie and Oppenheimer. I am seriously considering waiting for "The Meg 2", assuming it comes out in cinemas
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,416
    Andy_JS said:

    Off to see Oppenheimer this afternoon. First time in an actual cinema for years

    Only three hours but it will seem like years.
    That doesn't sound like a glowing endorsement.
    Either films are getting longer or my bladder smaller and back weaker. Possibly all three.
    There are a lot of unnecessarily long films these days. I try to avoid them.
    Agreed. When was the last hit movie on/under 120 minutes?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,395
    edited July 2023
    Talking about deposits, more news re Mr Farage and the mess that kneejerk reactions [edit] might cause:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jul/22/bank-rule-changes-nigel-farage-closure-accounts-criminals-money-laundering

    'Banks are free to deny additional services to customers for a number of reasons, from threats of violence towards bank staff to suspicions of financial crime, but usually avoid explaining their decisions in any substance or detail. Saying as little as necessary can be a helpful way to avoid signalling to customers that they are under investigation by the NCA or are of interest to any other government departments. While this can be frustrating for customers, banks are more concerned with following laws laid out in the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002, which make it an offence to disclose information regarding a potential investigation “in the course of a business in the regulated sector”.'
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,416
    @Leon , @LostPassword , @Nigelb , i have added you to my discussion thread about Ukraine. Pelease feel free to correct/criticise
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited July 2023
    Carnyx said:

    Talking about deposits, more news re Mr Farage and the mess that kneejerk reactions [edit] might cause:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jul/22/bank-rule-changes-nigel-farage-closure-accounts-criminals-money-laundering

    'Banks are free to deny additional services to customers for a number of reasons, from threats of violence towards bank staff to suspicions of financial crime, but usually avoid explaining their decisions in any substance or detail. Saying as little as necessary can be a helpful way to avoid signalling to customers that they are under investigation by the NCA or are of interest to any other government departments. While this can be frustrating for customers, banks are more concerned with following laws laid out in the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002, which make it an offence to disclose information regarding a potential investigation “in the course of a business in the regulated sector”.'

    So if they're narking on you they're not allowed to tell you, in short. "Potential" investigation, lol.

    From a bird's eye view it's kinda hilarious that banks, yes banks, say they're so serious about watching out for money laundering and not assisting it.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,416
    Sandpit said:

    Off to see Oppenheimer this afternoon. First time in an actual cinema for years

    Only three hours but it will seem like years.
    That doesn't sound like a glowing endorsement.
    Either films are getting longer or my bladder smaller and back weaker. Possibly all three.
    I guess with all these big budget tv shows that last for 8-10hrs and how expensive going to the cinema is, I wonder if there is some sort of thought that they have to give the public more bang for their buck? And I don't think directors need any encouragement to leave more in the film than cutting it out.
    I think your average crap movie is heading closer to 90’, so the cinemas can get in more screenings, but the big event movies are now 150’-180’.

    Really looking forward to Oppenheimer, first time in years I’ve gone looking for an IMAX, as the director intended. If they can go to so much effort when making the movie, it’s only right that their customers make the effort to watch it properly.

    I go to the cinema 3-4 times a year, and usually go to the local boutique cinema with a couple of dozen leather seats and a bar.
    There is the occasional midrange gem: "The Courier" and "Copshop" were both under two hours

    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5748448
    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8368512/
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,657

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/22/sadiq-khan-mayor-u-turn-eco-wood-burners-pollution-fears

    "Wood burning in homes now produces more small particle pollution than all road traffic in the UK."

    You could do a lot more to reduce air pollution by banning wood burning stoves then with ULEZs. So why incur the massive political costs of a ULEZ?

    I think @RochdalePioneers may have a wood burning stove which would be interesting to hear his comments
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,491
    Sean_F said:

    WRT the by elections, it's evident that Reform/Reclaim are of no interest to the voters, and that the Conservatives will pick up most of them.

    The Conservatives were 5% up in Selby, on the constituency poll, and 12% up in Uxbridge.

    Reclaim got a higher vote in Uxbridge than their national polling… given they do not feature at all in national polling…

    Reform UK, in the 2 by-elections they stood in, got a bit over 3%, which is roughly half what they poll nationally. That doesn’t suggest to me that the Conservatives will pick up “most” of those currently saying they’ll vote Reform… maybe half.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,657
    Match started
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,395
    Peck said:

    Carnyx said:

    Talking about deposits, more news re Mr Farage and the mess that kneejerk reactions [edit] might cause:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jul/22/bank-rule-changes-nigel-farage-closure-accounts-criminals-money-laundering

    'Banks are free to deny additional services to customers for a number of reasons, from threats of violence towards bank staff to suspicions of financial crime, but usually avoid explaining their decisions in any substance or detail. Saying as little as necessary can be a helpful way to avoid signalling to customers that they are under investigation by the NCA or are of interest to any other government departments. While this can be frustrating for customers, banks are more concerned with following laws laid out in the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002, which make it an offence to disclose information regarding a potential investigation “in the course of a business in the regulated sector”.'

    So if they're narking on you they're not allowed to tell you, in short. "Potential" investigation, lol.
    But if they normally tell you, the very fact they don't tell you means they are narking *to* you. Quite the conflict. And one caused by HMG.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,395
    Also o/t but interesting esp in view of recent discussions here re the Nazi camps: a work-to-death camp on one of the CIs is to be formally investigated by a government inquiry.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/22/nazi-atrocities-jews-prisoners-war-alderney-channel-island-uk
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,772
    edited July 2023

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/22/sadiq-khan-mayor-u-turn-eco-wood-burners-pollution-fears

    "Wood burning in homes now produces more small particle pollution than all road traffic in the UK."

    You could do a lot more to reduce air pollution by banning wood burning stoves then with ULEZs. So why incur the massive political costs of a ULEZ?

    I think @RochdalePioneers may have a wood burning stove which would be interesting to hear his comments
    I do as well.

    I think it unlikely the Tories would ban them. Too many wealthy people enjoy them as status symbols. Labour might.

    Speaking of Wood...
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,240

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/22/sadiq-khan-mayor-u-turn-eco-wood-burners-pollution-fears

    "Wood burning in homes now produces more small particle pollution than all road traffic in the UK."

    You could do a lot more to reduce air pollution by banning wood burning stoves then with ULEZs. So why incur the massive political costs of a ULEZ?

    Why does it need to be an either/or? Oxford is doing both - extending Smoke Control Zones to the whole city and (eventually) expanding their existing Zero Emission Zone.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,302
    ydoethur said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/22/sadiq-khan-mayor-u-turn-eco-wood-burners-pollution-fears

    "Wood burning in homes now produces more small particle pollution than all road traffic in the UK."

    You could do a lot more to reduce air pollution by banning wood burning stoves then with ULEZs. So why incur the massive political costs of a ULEZ?

    I think @RochdalePioneers may have a wood burning stove which would be interesting to hear his comments
    I do as well.

    I think it unlikely the Tories would ban them. Too many wealthy people enjoy them as status symbols. Labour might.
    It's actually the kind of thing that would suit a ULEZ-style zone because they're much more of a problem when they're concentrated in an urban area.
  • Sean_F said:

    WRT the by elections, it's evident that Reform/Reclaim are of no interest to the voters, and that the Conservatives will pick up most of them.

    The Conservatives were 5% up in Selby, on the constituency poll, and 12% up in Uxbridge.

    Reclaim got a higher vote in Uxbridge than their national polling… given they do not feature at all in national polling…

    Reform UK, in the 2 by-elections they stood in, got a bit over 3%, which is roughly half what they poll nationally. That doesn’t suggest to me that the Conservatives will pick up “most” of those currently saying they’ll vote Reform… maybe half.
    Whilst I think you are right that Reform are overstated in the polls, by-elections aren't perhaps a great measure as typically being big, set-piece, head-to-head battles. They are ideal situations for also-rans to be squeezed.

    General Election contests have some of that too, but the intensity of campaigns in individual seats is simply less because there are so many individual contests going on at once.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,657
    I think what we can say is ULEZ has really become the story of the three by elections, rather than labour and the lib dems successes

    I expect there is a lot of anger in labour towards Khan as he is at the centre of the story
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/22/sadiq-khan-mayor-u-turn-eco-wood-burners-pollution-fears

    "Wood burning in homes now produces more small particle pollution than all road traffic in the UK."

    You could do a lot more to reduce air pollution by banning wood burning stoves then with ULEZs. So why incur the massive political costs of a ULEZ?

    A lot of m/c eco warriors have them?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/22/sadiq-khan-mayor-u-turn-eco-wood-burners-pollution-fears

    "Wood burning in homes now produces more small particle pollution than all road traffic in the UK."

    You could do a lot more to reduce air pollution by banning wood burning stoves then with ULEZs. So why incur the massive political costs of a ULEZ?

    I think @RochdalePioneers may have a wood burning stove which would be interesting to hear his comments
    I have one. It is designed to as smoke minimal as possible as I understand it. Clearview 650.

    Had it about ten years. We use it in winter and keep the gas heating off when it is being used.

    Starting to think I perhaps should use it less often looking at the growing evidence on pariculates.

    Monbiot came out the other month and said he had made a mistake installing woodburners several years ago instead of using gas.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,491
    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Off to see Oppenheimer this afternoon. First time in an actual cinema for years

    Only three hours but it will seem like years.
    That doesn't sound like a glowing endorsement.
    Either films are getting longer or my bladder smaller and back weaker. Possibly all three.
    There are a lot of unnecessarily long films these days. I try to avoid them.
    Agreed. When was the last hit movie on/under 120 minutes?
    Several animated films are still under that length, like “Inside Out” (2015), “Song of the Sea” (2014) or “Your Name” (2016).

    “The Grand Budapest Hotel” (2014) is a mere 99 minutes. Marvel’s “Ant-Man and the Wasp” (2018) is just under at 118 minutes. There was also 2017’s “Dunkirk”.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,915

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/22/sadiq-khan-mayor-u-turn-eco-wood-burners-pollution-fears

    "Wood burning in homes now produces more small particle pollution than all road traffic in the UK."

    You could do a lot more to reduce air pollution by banning wood burning stoves then with ULEZs. So why incur the massive political costs of a ULEZ?

    Why does it need to be an either/or? Oxford is doing both - extending Smoke Control Zones to the whole city and (eventually) expanding their existing Zero Emission Zone.
    It doesn't have to be either/or, though in practice I think politics often does come down to choices. If you spend your political capital on doing x, then you don't have the executive time to do y.

    Secondly, as I said earlier, the ULEZ only makes a marginal difference because the rules for new cars, and impending ban on ICE sales, means that we'll eventually end up with zero tailpipe emissions even without any ULEZ. So it seems like a lot of hassle for only marginal benefit. I'd rather the political effort was put into something with more payoff - like taking roadspace away from cars and using it for cycling infrastructure.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,657

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/22/sadiq-khan-mayor-u-turn-eco-wood-burners-pollution-fears

    "Wood burning in homes now produces more small particle pollution than all road traffic in the UK."

    You could do a lot more to reduce air pollution by banning wood burning stoves then with ULEZs. So why incur the massive political costs of a ULEZ?

    I think @RochdalePioneers may have a wood burning stove which would be interesting to hear his comments
    I have one. It is designed to as smoke minimal as possible as I understand it. Clearview 650.

    Had it about ten years. We use it in winter and keep the gas heating off when it is being used.

    Starting to think I perhaps should use it less often looking at the growing evidence on pariculates.

    Monbiot came out the other month and said he had made a mistake installing woodburners several years ago instead of using gas.
    It is not the first time I have heard negative comments about wood burners
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,491

    Sean_F said:

    WRT the by elections, it's evident that Reform/Reclaim are of no interest to the voters, and that the Conservatives will pick up most of them.

    The Conservatives were 5% up in Selby, on the constituency poll, and 12% up in Uxbridge.

    Reclaim got a higher vote in Uxbridge than their national polling… given they do not feature at all in national polling…

    Reform UK, in the 2 by-elections they stood in, got a bit over 3%, which is roughly half what they poll nationally. That doesn’t suggest to me that the Conservatives will pick up “most” of those currently saying they’ll vote Reform… maybe half.
    Whilst I think you are right that Reform are overstated in the polls, by-elections aren't perhaps a great measure as typically being big, set-piece, head-to-head battles. They are ideal situations for also-rans to be squeezed.

    General Election contests have some of that too, but the intensity of campaigns in individual seats is simply less because there are so many individual contests going on at once.
    Indeed, which weakens Sean F’s claim further.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,772
    All Aus have to do is not bat like lunatics. The weather will do the rest.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468

    ydoethur said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/22/sadiq-khan-mayor-u-turn-eco-wood-burners-pollution-fears

    "Wood burning in homes now produces more small particle pollution than all road traffic in the UK."

    You could do a lot more to reduce air pollution by banning wood burning stoves then with ULEZs. So why incur the massive political costs of a ULEZ?

    I think @RochdalePioneers may have a wood burning stove which would be interesting to hear his comments
    I do as well.

    I think it unlikely the Tories would ban them. Too many wealthy people enjoy them as status symbols. Labour might.
    It's actually the kind of thing that would suit a ULEZ-style zone because they're much more of a problem when they're concentrated in an urban area.
    Current situation:

    https://www.london.gov.uk/programmes-and-strategies/environment-and-climate-change/pollution-and-air-quality/guidance-wood-burning-london

    Lots of restrictions in urban areas already, looks like the underlying laws are in the hands of central government.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,478
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Inspection at 2pm.

    Bloody Ofsted, working on a Saturday. Probably a safeguarding issue.
    They don't need to work on a Saturday to cause safeguarding issues given how badly they're being managed at the moment.
    Ha. I knew you'd respond, somehow.....
    What do you make about this news that Sir Martin Oliver is to be the new Chief?* In among all the usual dishonest guff the DfE have put out about Spielman's successes I'd say he's got a very difficult job on his hands to repair the damage. Do you know whether he might be up to it?

    *I know officially he's only the preferred candidate but absolutely imploding in front of the Select Committee to the extent they recommended reopening the process didn't stop Spielman.
    Don't know anything about him, really. I'll make enquiries with my sources.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,491

    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Off to see Oppenheimer this afternoon. First time in an actual cinema for years

    Only three hours but it will seem like years.
    That doesn't sound like a glowing endorsement.
    Either films are getting longer or my bladder smaller and back weaker. Possibly all three.
    There are a lot of unnecessarily long films these days. I try to avoid them.
    Agreed. When was the last hit movie on/under 120 minutes?
    Several animated films are still under that length, like “Inside Out” (2015), “Song of the Sea” (2014) or “Your Name” (2016).

    “The Grand Budapest Hotel” (2014) is a mere 99 minutes. Marvel’s “Ant-Man and the Wasp” (2018) is just under at 118 minutes. There was also 2017’s “Dunkirk”.
    "Asteroid City", in cinemas right now, is 105 minutes.
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited July 2023
    Re. earlier references to seagulls: I'm sure that on my morning runs I get bothered more by gulls when I'm wearing a red cap. Perhaps they've evolved to follow red so they can get to carrion fast?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,149

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/22/sadiq-khan-mayor-u-turn-eco-wood-burners-pollution-fears

    "Wood burning in homes now produces more small particle pollution than all road traffic in the UK."

    You could do a lot more to reduce air pollution by banning wood burning stoves then with ULEZs. So why incur the massive political costs of a ULEZ?

    Why does it need to be an either/or? Oxford is doing both - extending Smoke Control Zones to the whole city and (eventually) expanding their existing Zero Emission Zone.
    It doesn't have to be either/or, though in practice I think politics often does come down to choices. If you spend your political capital on doing x, then you don't have the executive time to do y.

    Secondly, as I said earlier, the ULEZ only makes a marginal difference because the rules for new cars, and impending ban on ICE sales, means that we'll eventually end up with zero tailpipe emissions even without any ULEZ. So it seems like a lot of hassle for only marginal benefit. I'd rather the political effort was put into something with more payoff - like taking roadspace away from cars and using it for cycling infrastructure.
    Railway infrastructure!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,395
    Peck said:

    Re. earlier references to seagulls: I'm sure that on my morning runs I get bothered more by gulls when I'm wearing a red cap. Perhaps they've evolved to follow red so they can get to carrion fast?

    Red = food? Herring gulls anyway; the young peck the red spot on the parents' bill while soliciting food IIRC.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,959
    ydoethur said:

    All Aus have to do is not bat like lunatics. The weather will do the rest.

    Wood's pace is a handful.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,153
    Sandpit said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/22/sadiq-khan-mayor-u-turn-eco-wood-burners-pollution-fears

    "Wood burning in homes now produces more small particle pollution than all road traffic in the UK."

    You could do a lot more to reduce air pollution by banning wood burning stoves then with ULEZs. So why incur the massive political costs of a ULEZ?

    Because you can’t install a massive camera surveillance system under the pretence of banning wood burning stoves?
    Because lots of opinion forming types like to believe that a wood burning fireplace is Green.

    Give me my Log Burner or give me Death!
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Carnyx said:

    Peck said:

    Re. earlier references to seagulls: I'm sure that on my morning runs I get bothered more by gulls when I'm wearing a red cap. Perhaps they've evolved to follow red so they can get to carrion fast?

    Red = food? Herring gulls anyway; the young peck the red spot on the parents' bill while soliciting food IIRC.
    "The distinctive red spot on its bill spurred one of the classic studies in animal behaviour in the 1950s, led by Niko Tinbergen. Having seen gull chicks peck at their parents' bills to encourage them to regurgitate food, he tried various dummy, parent shapes and colours to see the chicks' response. He discovered that gull chicks will peck at any long, yellow thing with a red spot in order to get food. In other words, gull chicks have a built-in preference from birth for their parents' bills: a worthwhile survival mechanism."

    Whether @Peck is a long, yellow thing only he can tell us. Username checks out, anyway.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,035

    Sandpit said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/22/sadiq-khan-mayor-u-turn-eco-wood-burners-pollution-fears

    "Wood burning in homes now produces more small particle pollution than all road traffic in the UK."

    You could do a lot more to reduce air pollution by banning wood burning stoves then with ULEZs. So why incur the massive political costs of a ULEZ?

    Because you can’t install a massive camera surveillance system under the pretence of banning wood burning stoves?
    Because lots of opinion forming types like to believe that a wood burning fireplace is Green.

    Give me my Log Burner or give me Death!
    Also, you can’t generate a nine-figure annual income for City Hall, from banning wood burning stoves.
This discussion has been closed.