I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
My parents starved to death to send me to private school. But it was worth it.
My parents kept me in a comp. Didn't even try to send me to a grammar school.
And they never took me abroad until I was 19.
Did it bother me? Not much. Didn't particularly want to go abroad. I suffer from heat migraines very easily so the idea of hot summers was not appealing.
Would I have done better academically at a private school? Almost certainly. There was a significant problem with disruption in my local school that I wouldn't have had elsewhere. And you do see some quite stupid people who went to private schools getting on well in exams and careers.
But would have I enjoyed it? Probably not very much. I don't like commuting and my local comp was literally at the end of my road whereas the nearest private school was a ten mile bus ride.
Question before I go, how is putting "Sir Kid Starver" either clever or gracious?
Think on these things.
Have a good day all.
xx
I don't particularly like it, in the same way I don't like all the snide comments about Sunak's height.
But I suppose it's all in the long and rather sad tradition of political 'discourse' ...
Totally agree with you.
Yup. Fun fact -
"The Iron Lady" was an insult carefully crafted by committee. No really. Multiple committees, actually, of the KGB propaganda office. So lots of chubby, middle aged (and elderly) men, spent man-centuries on coming up with an insult to a woman. And they really managed a spectacular success there....
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
Yes.
Again, we come back to people are obsessed with the high end.
Also, I said 'prep school' which tend to have lower fees. Not so many staff to pay, you see.
You must be getting a very good deal in your area! Can't find anything around here that is less that £4.5k per term...and then there's the extra £50 per week or so for the extracurricular activities.
Where do you live? I assumed Stafford. If so, look harder because I live in Cannock.
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
I wasn't even a bloody Yorkshireman!
You lot born with a whippet down yer trousers, yer had it made lads
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
Yeah, "Mum and Dad sent me to Ampleforth/Sedbergh and all we could afford to stay in was a coffin in Whitby and battered cods' heads for dinner". "Ay, happen you were lucky lad, we only had plain batter!"
It does explain all those ex-public schoolboys with un-broadened minds.
Further proof that Australia will soon be a republic.
The Australian state of Victoria has pulled out of hosting the 2026 Commonwealth Games due to projected cost overruns, placing the future of the quadrennial event in doubt.
The Premier of Victoria, Dan Andrews, said the cost of the Games, which would have been held in four regional hubs, could blow out to more than A$7 billion (about £3.7 billion) from a budgeted A$2.6 billion (£1.4 billion) if they went ahead.
“Frankly A$6-A$7 billion for a 12-day sporting event, we’re not doing that,” Andrews said. “I will not take money out of hospitals and schools to fund an event that is three times the cost as estimated and budgeted for last year.”
On topic, this is why the Tories are doomed and why Sunak is reportedly going to fire Steve Barclay.
More than one million patients a month are having to wait four weeks to see their GP, with rural areas the worst affected.
NHS data reveals there were 1.3 million appointments in May which had been booked at least four weeks earlier — up from 912,000 in May 2022.
It means one in 20 people now endure waits of at least 28 days after contacting their GP surgery to get an appointment, putting them at risk of delayed or missed diagnosis.
Good morning everybody! There is one GP practice in this small town, with three doctors. A week or so ago. Somebody posted on our Facebook page that they’d rung up for appointment and been told the first one was in three weeks. On the same day, I rang up for an appointment and was seen that afternoon! I do wonder about the discrepancy!
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
My parents starved to death to send me to private school. But it was worth it.
My parents kept me in a comp. Didn't even try to send me to a grammar school.
And they never took me abroad until I was 19.
Did it bother me? Not much. Didn't particularly want to go abroad. I suffer from heat migraines very easily so the idea of hot summers was not appealing.
Would I have done better academically at a private school? Almost certainly. There was a significant problem with disruption in my local school that I wouldn't have had elsewhere. And you do see some quite stupid people who went to private schools getting on well in exams and careers.
But would have I enjoyed it? Probably not very much. I don't like commuting and my local comp was literally at the end of my road whereas the nearest private school was a ten mile bus ride.
I think this is probably my main personal issue with private schools - the advancement of the mediocre. We see it most obviously in our current government, half of whom I wouldn’t trust to make a cup of tea.
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
You tell PBers today you didn't go to a private school or have a foreign holiday. They won't believe you.
Well no, I wouldn't believe TSE on that. The truth is already out.
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
My parents starved to death to send me to private school. But it was worth it.
My parents kept me in a comp. Didn't even try to send me to a grammar school.
And they never took me abroad until I was 19.
Did it bother me? Not much. Didn't particularly want to go abroad. I suffer from heat migraines very easily so the idea of hot summers was not appealing.
Would I have done better academically at a private school? Almost certainly. There was a significant problem with disruption in my local school that I wouldn't have had elsewhere. And you do see some quite stupid people who went to private schools getting on well in exams and careers.
But would have I enjoyed it? Probably not very much. I don't like commuting and my local comp was literally at the end of my road whereas the nearest private school was a ten mile bus ride.
I think this is probably my main personal issue with private schools - the advancement of the mediocre. We see it most obviously in our current government, half of whom I wouldn’t trust to make a cup of tea.
That I would agree with.
Which is one reason why I've always been adamant the way to get rid of them is to cut class sizes in the state sector dramatically. That would first, eliminate the edge private schools have and second, really improve education outcomes (much though I hate that cliche) for everyone.
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
Yeah, "Mum and Dad sent me to Ampleforth/Sedbergh and all we could afford to stay in was a coffin in Whitby and battered cods' heads for dinner". "Ay, happen you were lucky lad, we only had plain batter!"
Whitby? Luxury! We had to make do with Scarborough
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
You tell PBers today you didn't go to a private school or have a foreign holiday. They won't believe you.
Well no, I wouldn't believe TSE on that. The truth is already out.
We'd be more likely to believe him if he suddenly declared he'd realised his love for Max Verstappen while eating a pizza with pineapple on it which he paid cash for.
Further proof that Australia will soon be a republic.
The Australian state of Victoria has pulled out of hosting the 2026 Commonwealth Games due to projected cost overruns, placing the future of the quadrennial event in doubt.
The Premier of Victoria, Dan Andrews, said the cost of the Games, which would have been held in four regional hubs, could blow out to more than A$7 billion (about £3.7 billion) from a budgeted A$2.6 billion (£1.4 billion) if they went ahead.
“Frankly A$6-A$7 billion for a 12-day sporting event, we’re not doing that,” Andrews said. “I will not take money out of hospitals and schools to fund an event that is three times the cost as estimated and budgeted for last year.”
Pathetic by the Labor government of Australian, the Liberal Opposition Leader rightfully slammed them as putting future hosting of sport events in Australia and the state at risk. Leftwing woke hatred of Australian history now even extends to the Commonwealth games it seems and no wonder polls for the Voice referendum in the autumn get ever closer as rural Australia and suburban Australia revolts against the left liberal urban elite
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
Yes.
Again, we come back to people are obsessed with the high end.
Also, I said 'prep school' which tend to have lower fees. Not so many staff to pay, you see.
You must be getting a very good deal in your area! Can't find anything around here that is less that £4.5k per term...and then there's the extra £50 per week or so for the extracurricular activities.
Where do you live? I assumed Stafford. If so, look harder because I live in Cannock.
Was Stafford for 25 years - now Oxfordshire. But I checked the Staffordshire schools. Here's the fees for Yarlet, which is fairly well respected in the area from what I recall:
Further proof that Australia will soon be a republic.
The Australian state of Victoria has pulled out of hosting the 2026 Commonwealth Games due to projected cost overruns, placing the future of the quadrennial event in doubt.
The Premier of Victoria, Dan Andrews, said the cost of the Games, which would have been held in four regional hubs, could blow out to more than A$7 billion (about £3.7 billion) from a budgeted A$2.6 billion (£1.4 billion) if they went ahead.
“Frankly A$6-A$7 billion for a 12-day sporting event, we’re not doing that,” Andrews said. “I will not take money out of hospitals and schools to fund an event that is three times the cost as estimated and budgeted for last year.”
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
You tell PBers today you didn't go to a private school or have a foreign holiday. They won't believe you.
You went to a grammar school, they damage comprehensive school children more than fee paying schools could ever do.
Mrs Thatcher's second finest achievement was closing down so many grammar schools.
My reading of the polling in the article is this. There isn't a single area of policy in which the majority of responders expect it to get better. The plurality in every case is for the uncommitted categories of 'no impact + don't know'. They are right.
I think the expectation of people who reflect at all is that the major reason for a change of government is in the area of integrity, decency and competence, without which the nation and its culture cannot really improve.
Sir K faces of course the usual nonsense expectations from the extremes, but most people know we are borrowing to pay current account expenditure already, with also £100 bn annual debt management bill.
Sir K faces, from the middling sort who will elect him, very few expectations in concrete terms. He is managing expectations more severely than I would expect (the 2 child cap thing grates on our collective conscience and common sense, and our sense of support for those who do the tough job of bringing up lots of children).
Principle, purpose, a consistent philosophy and a developing plan with fiscal discipline is all we can expect - plus growth in competence. In the UK as we are now it is actually asking a lot.
Grocery price inflation has fallen at the fastest rate since its peak in March but remains high, new figures show.
Inflation fell to 14.9 per cent in the four weeks to July 9, down from 16.5 per cent over the previous month, according to data from the market researcher Kantar.
It is the fourth month in a row that grocery inflation has fallen after hitting a high of 17.5 per cent in March.
Further proof that Australia will soon be a republic.
The Australian state of Victoria has pulled out of hosting the 2026 Commonwealth Games due to projected cost overruns, placing the future of the quadrennial event in doubt.
The Premier of Victoria, Dan Andrews, said the cost of the Games, which would have been held in four regional hubs, could blow out to more than A$7 billion (about £3.7 billion) from a budgeted A$2.6 billion (£1.4 billion) if they went ahead.
“Frankly A$6-A$7 billion for a 12-day sporting event, we’re not doing that,” Andrews said. “I will not take money out of hospitals and schools to fund an event that is three times the cost as estimated and budgeted for last year.”
Pathetic by the Labor government of Australian, the Liberal Opposition Leader rightfully slammed them as putting future hosting of sport events in Australia and the state at risk. Leftwing woke hatred of Australian history now even extends to the Commonwealth games it seems and no wonder polls for the Voice referendum in the autumn get ever closer as rural Australia and suburban Australia revolts against the left liberal urban elite
We spend $7 billion dollars on the Commonwealth Games, let us spend in on the health service instead.
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
Yes.
Again, we come back to people are obsessed with the high end.
Also, I said 'prep school' which tend to have lower fees. Not so many staff to pay, you see.
You must be getting a very good deal in your area! Can't find anything around here that is less that £4.5k per term...and then there's the extra £50 per week or so for the extracurricular activities.
Where do you live? I assumed Stafford. If so, look harder because I live in Cannock.
Was Stafford for 25 years - now Oxfordshire. But I checked the Staffordshire schools. Here's the fees for Yarlet, which is fairly well respected in the area from what I recall:
Further proof that Australia will soon be a republic.
The Australian state of Victoria has pulled out of hosting the 2026 Commonwealth Games due to projected cost overruns, placing the future of the quadrennial event in doubt.
The Premier of Victoria, Dan Andrews, said the cost of the Games, which would have been held in four regional hubs, could blow out to more than A$7 billion (about £3.7 billion) from a budgeted A$2.6 billion (£1.4 billion) if they went ahead.
“Frankly A$6-A$7 billion for a 12-day sporting event, we’re not doing that,” Andrews said. “I will not take money out of hospitals and schools to fund an event that is three times the cost as estimated and budgeted for last year.”
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
You tell PBers today you didn't go to a private school or have a foreign holiday. They won't believe you.
You went to a grammar school, they damage comprehensive school children more than fee paying schools could ever do.
Mrs Thatcher's second finest achievement was closing down so many grammar schools.
If you go to a grammar school, by definition you're not a 'comprehensive school child,' surely?
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
Yes.
Again, we come back to people are obsessed with the high end.
Also, I said 'prep school' which tend to have lower fees. Not so many staff to pay, you see.
You must be getting a very good deal in your area! Can't find anything around here that is less that £4.5k per term...and then there's the extra £50 per week or so for the extracurricular activities.
The other sniff test is spending in state schools; about £6000 per pupil per year in primary and £7000 in secondary. Unless you're doing it to make a point, like that chap in Durham, it seems unlikely that you would run or choose a school that was spending less than that.
How much does a family holiday abroad cost? How long is a piece of string? Articles like this suggest £3000 or so for a family for a week, which feels about right in my experience.
Conclusion: Keegan may be technically right, there are private schools cheaper than a family holiday. But it's jolly misleading and does come across a bit "let them eat cake".
Further proof that Australia will soon be a republic.
The Australian state of Victoria has pulled out of hosting the 2026 Commonwealth Games due to projected cost overruns, placing the future of the quadrennial event in doubt.
The Premier of Victoria, Dan Andrews, said the cost of the Games, which would have been held in four regional hubs, could blow out to more than A$7 billion (about £3.7 billion) from a budgeted A$2.6 billion (£1.4 billion) if they went ahead.
“Frankly A$6-A$7 billion for a 12-day sporting event, we’re not doing that,” Andrews said. “I will not take money out of hospitals and schools to fund an event that is three times the cost as estimated and budgeted for last year.”
Pathetic by the Labor government of Australian, the Liberal Opposition Leader rightfully slammed them as putting future hosting of sport events in Australia and the state at risk. Leftwing woke hatred of Australian history now even extends to the Commonwealth games it seems and no wonder polls for the Voice referendum in the autumn get ever closer as rural Australia and suburban Australia revolts against the left liberal urban elite
Or the Premier of Victoria realised that whilst the Commonwealths are “nice” they are second tier and the money should be spent on more vital things right now. Can you imagine the outrage if Rishi said “it’s ok we’ll take it on and spend a few billion on hosting” whilst the economy is rather uncomfortable right now?
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
You tell PBers today you didn't go to a private school or have a foreign holiday. They won't believe you.
You went to a grammar school, they damage comprehensive school children more than fee paying schools could ever do.
Mrs Thatcher's second finest achievement was closing down so many grammar schools.
If you go to a grammar school, by definition you're not a 'comprehensive school child,' surely?
I know I’m talking grammar schools damaging nearby local comprehensives.
Further proof that Australia will soon be a republic.
The Australian state of Victoria has pulled out of hosting the 2026 Commonwealth Games due to projected cost overruns, placing the future of the quadrennial event in doubt.
The Premier of Victoria, Dan Andrews, said the cost of the Games, which would have been held in four regional hubs, could blow out to more than A$7 billion (about £3.7 billion) from a budgeted A$2.6 billion (£1.4 billion) if they went ahead.
“Frankly A$6-A$7 billion for a 12-day sporting event, we’re not doing that,” Andrews said. “I will not take money out of hospitals and schools to fund an event that is three times the cost as estimated and budgeted for last year.”
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
Yeah, "Mum and Dad sent me to Ampleforth/Sedbergh and all we could afford to stay in was a coffin in Whitby and battered cods' heads for dinner". "Ay, happen you were lucky lad, we only had plain batter!"
Whitby? Luxury! We had to make do with Scarborough
And Mum and Dad had to run their business from a FileyFax (yes, they WERE a thing - erm, definitely .
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
You tell PBers today you didn't go to a private school or have a foreign holiday. They won't believe you.
You went to a grammar school, they damage comprehensive school children more than fee paying schools could ever do.
Mrs Thatcher's second finest achievement was closing down so many grammar schools.
If you go to a grammar school, by definition you're not a 'comprehensive school child,' surely?
I know I’m talking grammar schools damaging nearby local comprehensives.
Ah, now I understand. Yes, that was a big problem in Gloucester when I was growing up. There were four grammars and one decent comp. The rest of the comps were dreadful.
Mind, one of the grammars was infamously bad. Old Shire joke - 'if you had a choice between going to Crypt and going to Borstal, what crime would you commit?'
Yet people still did go there for reasons which mystified me. It actually had worse GCSE results than Newent.
Further proof that Australia will soon be a republic.
The Australian state of Victoria has pulled out of hosting the 2026 Commonwealth Games due to projected cost overruns, placing the future of the quadrennial event in doubt.
The Premier of Victoria, Dan Andrews, said the cost of the Games, which would have been held in four regional hubs, could blow out to more than A$7 billion (about £3.7 billion) from a budgeted A$2.6 billion (£1.4 billion) if they went ahead.
“Frankly A$6-A$7 billion for a 12-day sporting event, we’re not doing that,” Andrews said. “I will not take money out of hospitals and schools to fund an event that is three times the cost as estimated and budgeted for last year.”
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
You tell PBers today you didn't go to a private school or have a foreign holiday. They won't believe you.
You went to a grammar school, they damage comprehensive school children more than fee paying schools could ever do.
Mrs Thatcher's second finest achievement was closing down so many grammar schools.
Quite possibly.
I don't remember it being a choice though. The primary school simply picked a number of us to take the 11-plus and if you passed you went. There was no tutoring or all that malarkey in those days. Thankfully (for me) the grammar was also the closest secondary school to our home, which meant the council would pay my bus fare. If it hasn't been, my father would have vetoed it since we were poor and he considered education to be a waste of time.
I have pretty low expectations of Starmer, but the economy will start to grow again next year, and that will create some leeway for him.
Though even if a Starmer government is little different policy wise, heavily constrained by the shackles of Brexit and the poor state of public finances and public services, this government needs to go. It is necessary for democracy to survive that the incompetence, mendacity and corruption that we have seen since 2015 are punished severely at the election.
Right, because Starmer is SOOOOOO competent and honest.
I can understand why people don't like the Conservative government. I don't myself, particularly.
But I'm truly baffled as to why (other than wishful thinking) anybody who has studied his record for more than about five minutes would think he'd be any better, when he lied his way into the leadership, worked for Jeremy Corbyn to be PM, and has no convincing answers to the problems facing the country, other than maybe planning reform, which has defeated better people than him.
He'd be much more likely to be Gordon Brown Mark 2.
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
My parents starved to death to send me to private school. But it was worth it.
My parents kept me in a comp. Didn't even try to send me to a grammar school.
And they never took me abroad until I was 19.
Did it bother me? Not much. Didn't particularly want to go abroad. I suffer from heat migraines very easily so the idea of hot summers was not appealing.
Would I have done better academically at a private school? Almost certainly. There was a significant problem with disruption in my local school that I wouldn't have had elsewhere. And you do see some quite stupid people who went to private schools getting on well in exams and careers.
But would have I enjoyed it? Probably not very much. I don't like commuting and my local comp was literally at the end of my road whereas the nearest private school was a ten mile bus ride.
I think this is probably my main personal issue with private schools - the advancement of the mediocre. We see it most obviously in our current government, half of whom I wouldn’t trust to make a cup of tea.
That I would agree with.
Which is one reason why I've always been adamant the way to get rid of them is to cut class sizes in the state sector dramatically. That would first, eliminate the edge private schools have and second, really improve education outcomes (much though I hate that cliche) for everyone.
The strange element in the debate about private and state education is the lack of interest in the actual issue.
Which is the better educational outcomes achieved by private schools.
At this point the debate generally devolves to Olympic swimming pools, thick poshos and my favourite - “Over education”.
Has anyone actually done a study on the effect of reducing class size without changing anything else?
Edit : The reason for the avoidance of the issue is obvious, to me.
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
You tell PBers today you didn't go to a private school or have a foreign holiday. They won't believe you.
You went to a grammar school, they damage comprehensive school children more than fee paying schools could ever do.
Mrs Thatcher's second finest achievement was closing down so many grammar schools.
Quite possibly.
I don't remember it being a choice though. The primary school simply picked a number of us to take the 11-plus and if you passed you went. There was no tutoring or all that malarkey in those days. Thankfully (for me) the grammar was also the closest secondary school to our home, which meant the council would pay my bus fare. If it hasn't been, my father would have vetoed it since we were poor and he considered education to be a waste of time.
I'm saying nothing against the 11+.
The new one that was designed so you can't tutor children through it? Making me a fortune.
The stupidity of the people who designed it is disturbing.
Further proof that Australia will soon be a republic.
The Australian state of Victoria has pulled out of hosting the 2026 Commonwealth Games due to projected cost overruns, placing the future of the quadrennial event in doubt.
The Premier of Victoria, Dan Andrews, said the cost of the Games, which would have been held in four regional hubs, could blow out to more than A$7 billion (about £3.7 billion) from a budgeted A$2.6 billion (£1.4 billion) if they went ahead.
“Frankly A$6-A$7 billion for a 12-day sporting event, we’re not doing that,” Andrews said. “I will not take money out of hospitals and schools to fund an event that is three times the cost as estimated and budgeted for last year.”
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
Yes.
Again, we come back to people are obsessed with the high end.
Also, I said 'prep school' which tend to have lower fees. Not so many staff to pay, you see.
You must be getting a very good deal in your area! Can't find anything around here that is less that £4.5k per term...and then there's the extra £50 per week or so for the extracurricular activities.
A quick Google shows there are schools in West Yorkshire with fees well below £3k, but are they worth the expense compared with a state school, even if you aspire to private education ? (I'm far from convinced the more expensive ones are, anyway.)
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
My parents starved to death to send me to private school. But it was worth it.
My parents kept me in a comp. Didn't even try to send me to a grammar school.
And they never took me abroad until I was 19.
Did it bother me? Not much. Didn't particularly want to go abroad. I suffer from heat migraines very easily so the idea of hot summers was not appealing.
Would I have done better academically at a private school? Almost certainly. There was a significant problem with disruption in my local school that I wouldn't have had elsewhere. And you do see some quite stupid people who went to private schools getting on well in exams and careers.
But would have I enjoyed it? Probably not very much. I don't like commuting and my local comp was literally at the end of my road whereas the nearest private school was a ten mile bus ride.
I think this is probably my main personal issue with private schools - the advancement of the mediocre. We see it most obviously in our current government, half of whom I wouldn’t trust to make a cup of tea.
That I would agree with.
Which is one reason why I've always been adamant the way to get rid of them is to cut class sizes in the state sector dramatically. That would first, eliminate the edge private schools have and second, really improve education outcomes (much though I hate that cliche) for everyone.
The strange element in the debate about private and state education is the lack of interest in the actual issue.
Which is the better educational outcomes achieved by private schools.
At this point the debate generally devolves to Olympic swimming pools, thick poshos and my favourite - “Over education”.
Has anyone actually done a study on the effect of reducing class size without changing anything else?
Edit : The reason for the avoidance of the issue is obvious, to me.
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
Yes.
Again, we come back to people are obsessed with the high end.
Also, I said 'prep school' which tend to have lower fees. Not so many staff to pay, you see.
You must be getting a very good deal in your area! Can't find anything around here that is less that £4.5k per term...and then there's the extra £50 per week or so for the extracurricular activities.
A quick Google shows there are schools in West Yorkshire with fees well below £3k, but are they worth the expense compared with a state school, even if you aspire to private education ? (I'm far from convinced the more expensive ones are, anyway.)
The thing with private schools is you're missing out on £7,200 ? of education before you start. So a fee of £9k is actually only worth £2k "extra".
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
Yes.
Again, we come back to people are obsessed with the high end.
Also, I said 'prep school' which tend to have lower fees. Not so many staff to pay, you see.
You must be getting a very good deal in your area! Can't find anything around here that is less that £4.5k per term...and then there's the extra £50 per week or so for the extracurricular activities.
A quick Google shows there are schools in West Yorkshire with fees well below £3k, but are they worth the expense compared with a state school, even if you aspire to private education ? (I'm far from convinced the more expensive ones are, anyway.)
The thing with private schools is you're missing out on £7,200 ? of education before you start. So a fee of £9k is actually only worth £2k "extra".
Less than that, given funding is calculated on average parental income. More like £4-5000 on a like for like basis.
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
My parents starved to death to send me to private school. But it was worth it.
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
Yes.
Again, we come back to people are obsessed with the high end.
Also, I said 'prep school' which tend to have lower fees. Not so many staff to pay, you see.
You must be getting a very good deal in your area! Can't find anything around here that is less that £4.5k per term...and then there's the extra £50 per week or so for the extracurricular activities.
A quick Google shows there are schools in West Yorkshire with fees well below £3k, but are they worth the expense compared with a state school, even if you aspire to private education ? (I'm far from convinced the more expensive ones are, anyway.)
The state school system in West Yorkshire produced Liz Truss Might be worth the money to avoid that.
Further proof that Australia will soon be a republic.
The Australian state of Victoria has pulled out of hosting the 2026 Commonwealth Games due to projected cost overruns, placing the future of the quadrennial event in doubt.
The Premier of Victoria, Dan Andrews, said the cost of the Games, which would have been held in four regional hubs, could blow out to more than A$7 billion (about £3.7 billion) from a budgeted A$2.6 billion (£1.4 billion) if they went ahead.
“Frankly A$6-A$7 billion for a 12-day sporting event, we’re not doing that,” Andrews said. “I will not take money out of hospitals and schools to fund an event that is three times the cost as estimated and budgeted for last year.”
Pathetic by the Labor government of Australian, the Liberal Opposition Leader rightfully slammed them as putting future hosting of sport events in Australia and the state at risk. Leftwing woke hatred of Australian history now even extends to the Commonwealth games it seems and no wonder polls for the Voice referendum in the autumn get ever closer as rural Australia and suburban Australia revolts against the left liberal urban elite
We spend $7 billion dollars on the Commonwealth Games, let us spend in on the health service instead.
Quite. Not sure where 'woke hatred of history' comes into it. HYUFD has the oddest obsessions.
There was a study done some years ago which claimed that children in large classes did much better than those in small classes, at any rate in the state sector.
The DfE immediately seized on this and said teachers should all stop whinging about class sizes.
Teachers immediately pointed out the DfE were talking shit (as usual) because the authors had not noticed that the smaller classes were invariably bottom sets.
Further proof that Australia will soon be a republic.
The Australian state of Victoria has pulled out of hosting the 2026 Commonwealth Games due to projected cost overruns, placing the future of the quadrennial event in doubt.
The Premier of Victoria, Dan Andrews, said the cost of the Games, which would have been held in four regional hubs, could blow out to more than A$7 billion (about £3.7 billion) from a budgeted A$2.6 billion (£1.4 billion) if they went ahead.
“Frankly A$6-A$7 billion for a 12-day sporting event, we’re not doing that,” Andrews said. “I will not take money out of hospitals and schools to fund an event that is three times the cost as estimated and budgeted for last year.”
Pathetic by the Labor government of Australian, the Liberal Opposition Leader rightfully slammed them as putting future hosting of sport events in Australia and the state at risk. Leftwing woke hatred of Australian history now even extends to the Commonwealth games it seems and no wonder polls for the Voice referendum in the autumn get ever closer as rural Australia and suburban Australia revolts against the left liberal urban elite
Or the Premier of Victoria realised that whilst the Commonwealths are “nice” they are second tier and the money should be spent on more vital things right now. Can you imagine the outrage if Rishi said “it’s ok we’ll take it on and spend a few billion on hosting” whilst the economy is rather uncomfortable right now?
Well they should have thought of that before bidding for the Games.
Unless Sydney can step up, and host the Games from mostly existing facilities, then no major sporting event is going to be awarded to Australia for decades. No running track at the old Olympic Stadium any more though.
Further proof that Australia will soon be a republic.
The Australian state of Victoria has pulled out of hosting the 2026 Commonwealth Games due to projected cost overruns, placing the future of the quadrennial event in doubt.
The Premier of Victoria, Dan Andrews, said the cost of the Games, which would have been held in four regional hubs, could blow out to more than A$7 billion (about £3.7 billion) from a budgeted A$2.6 billion (£1.4 billion) if they went ahead.
“Frankly A$6-A$7 billion for a 12-day sporting event, we’re not doing that,” Andrews said. “I will not take money out of hospitals and schools to fund an event that is three times the cost as estimated and budgeted for last year.”
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
You tell PBers today you didn't go to a private school or have a foreign holiday. They won't believe you.
You went to a grammar school, they damage comprehensive school children more than fee paying schools could ever do.
Mrs Thatcher's second finest achievement was closing down so many grammar schools.
Quite possibly.
I don't remember it being a choice though. The primary school simply picked a number of us to take the 11-plus and if you passed you went. There was no tutoring or all that malarkey in those days. Thankfully (for me) the grammar was also the closest secondary school to our home, which meant the council would pay my bus fare. If it hasn't been, my father would have vetoed it since we were poor and he considered education to be a waste of time.
I'm saying nothing against the 11+.
The new one that was designed so you can't tutor children through it? Making me a fortune.
The stupidity of the people who designed it is disturbing.
The designed it brilliantly. As a job opportunity for tutors.
Think, man, think.
It's like the "security" screws - every year, a new designs of screw heads you can't open with a normal screwdriver. Every year the manufacturers of screwdriver sets bring out a bigger set. The same manufacturers, for both screws and screwdrivers.
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
Yes.
Again, we come back to people are obsessed with the high end.
Also, I said 'prep school' which tend to have lower fees. Not so many staff to pay, you see.
You must be getting a very good deal in your area! Can't find anything around here that is less that £4.5k per term...and then there's the extra £50 per week or so for the extracurricular activities.
A quick Google shows there are schools in West Yorkshire with fees well below £3k, but are they worth the expense compared with a state school, even if you aspire to private education ? (I'm far from convinced the more expensive ones are, anyway.)
The thing with private schools is you're missing out on £7,200 ? of education before you start. So a fee of £9k is actually only worth £2k "extra".
Less than that, given funding is calculated on average parental income. More like £4-5000 on a like for like basis.
If parents are earning say £75k between them how much does the school get.
Further proof that Australia will soon be a republic.
The Australian state of Victoria has pulled out of hosting the 2026 Commonwealth Games due to projected cost overruns, placing the future of the quadrennial event in doubt.
The Premier of Victoria, Dan Andrews, said the cost of the Games, which would have been held in four regional hubs, could blow out to more than A$7 billion (about £3.7 billion) from a budgeted A$2.6 billion (£1.4 billion) if they went ahead.
“Frankly A$6-A$7 billion for a 12-day sporting event, we’re not doing that,” Andrews said. “I will not take money out of hospitals and schools to fund an event that is three times the cost as estimated and budgeted for last year.”
Pathetic by the Labor government of Australian, the Liberal Opposition Leader rightfully slammed them as putting future hosting of sport events in Australia and the state at risk. Leftwing woke hatred of Australian history now even extends to the Commonwealth games it seems and no wonder polls for the Voice referendum in the autumn get ever closer as rural Australia and suburban Australia revolts against the left liberal urban elite
We spend $7 billion dollars on the Commonwealth Games, let us spend in on the health service instead.
Quite. Not sure where 'woke hatred of history' comes into it. HYUFD has the oddest obsessions.
Woke hatred of history = actually reading the history books and seeing the evidence in the documents, oral history, air photos, maps etc.
I have pretty low expectations of Starmer, but the economy will start to grow again next year, and that will create some leeway for him.
Though even if a Starmer government is little different policy wise, heavily constrained by the shackles of Brexit and the poor state of public finances and public services, this government needs to go. It is necessary for democracy to survive that the incompetence, mendacity and corruption that we have seen since 2015 are punished severely at the election.
Right, because Starmer is SOOOOOO competent and honest.
I can understand why people don't like the Conservative government. I don't myself, particularly.
But I'm truly baffled as to why (other than wishful thinking) anybody who has studied his record for more than about five minutes would think he'd be any better, when he lied his way into the leadership, worked for Jeremy Corbyn to be PM, and has no convincing answers to the problems facing the country, other than maybe planning reform, which has defeated better people than him.
He'd be much more likely to be Gordon Brown Mark 2.
Brown mk2? Compared to the present lot, that works for me!
Further proof that Australia will soon be a republic.
The Australian state of Victoria has pulled out of hosting the 2026 Commonwealth Games due to projected cost overruns, placing the future of the quadrennial event in doubt.
The Premier of Victoria, Dan Andrews, said the cost of the Games, which would have been held in four regional hubs, could blow out to more than A$7 billion (about £3.7 billion) from a budgeted A$2.6 billion (£1.4 billion) if they went ahead.
“Frankly A$6-A$7 billion for a 12-day sporting event, we’re not doing that,” Andrews said. “I will not take money out of hospitals and schools to fund an event that is three times the cost as estimated and budgeted for last year.”
Pathetic by the Labor government of Australian, the Liberal Opposition Leader rightfully slammed them as putting future hosting of sport events in Australia and the state at risk. Leftwing woke hatred of Australian history now even extends to the Commonwealth games it seems and no wonder polls for the Voice referendum in the autumn get ever closer as rural Australia and suburban Australia revolts against the left liberal urban elite
Or the Premier of Victoria realised that whilst the Commonwealths are “nice” they are second tier and the money should be spent on more vital things right now. Can you imagine the outrage if Rishi said “it’s ok we’ll take it on and spend a few billion on hosting” whilst the economy is rather uncomfortable right now?
Well they should have thought of that before bidding for the Games.
Unless Sydney can step up, and host the Games from mostly existing facilities, then no major sporting event is going to be awarded to Australia for decades. No running track at the old Olympic Stadium any more though.
Victoria were the only applicant.
The previous one was in Brum because Durban cancelled.
I don't think the Olympics gets a lot of bids either. It has just become too bloated.
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
My parents starved to death to send me to private school. But it was worth it.
My parents kept me in a comp. Didn't even try to send me to a grammar school.
And they never took me abroad until I was 19.
Did it bother me? Not much. Didn't particularly want to go abroad. I suffer from heat migraines very easily so the idea of hot summers was not appealing.
Would I have done better academically at a private school? Almost certainly. There was a significant problem with disruption in my local school that I wouldn't have had elsewhere. And you do see some quite stupid people who went to private schools getting on well in exams and careers.
But would have I enjoyed it? Probably not very much. I don't like commuting and my local comp was literally at the end of my road whereas the nearest private school was a ten mile bus ride.
I think this is probably my main personal issue with private schools - the advancement of the mediocre. We see it most obviously in our current government, half of whom I wouldn’t trust to make a cup of tea.
That I would agree with.
Which is one reason why I've always been adamant the way to get rid of them is to cut class sizes in the state sector dramatically. That would first, eliminate the edge private schools have and second, really improve education outcomes (much though I hate that cliche) for everyone.
The strange element in the debate about private and state education is the lack of interest in the actual issue.
Which is the better educational outcomes achieved by private schools.
At this point the debate generally devolves to Olympic swimming pools, thick poshos and my favourite - “Over education”.
Has anyone actually done a study on the effect of reducing class size without changing anything else?
Edit : The reason for the avoidance of the issue is obvious, to me.
Not in this country.
That would require you to reduce class sizes...
Once worked at a comprehensive that bust an absolute gut to get down to 24 maximum. Basically all the discrecionary spend in the budget went on that. That was probably not enough to really make a difference (you don't really change much by going from 30 to 24 in a well run school... Suspect the threshold is when 24 becomes 18). It ended up as more a selling point than anything else, and some of the consequent austerities (nothing printed full size, ever) were maddening.
Can't find the source, but I've seen it said that the key problem isn't so much staff as buildings. Cut the default class size from 30 to 20 and you need 50% more classrooms for the same number of children. And nobody has any intention of paying for that, especially in one go. Hence the use of TAs in primaries, to improve the adult:child ratio without changing the size of classes.
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
My parents starved to death to send me to private school. But it was worth it.
My parents kept me in a comp. Didn't even try to send me to a grammar school.
And they never took me abroad until I was 19.
Did it bother me? Not much. Didn't particularly want to go abroad. I suffer from heat migraines very easily so the idea of hot summers was not appealing.
Would I have done better academically at a private school? Almost certainly. There was a significant problem with disruption in my local school that I wouldn't have had elsewhere. And you do see some quite stupid people who went to private schools getting on well in exams and careers.
But would have I enjoyed it? Probably not very much. I don't like commuting and my local comp was literally at the end of my road whereas the nearest private school was a ten mile bus ride.
I think this is probably my main personal issue with private schools - the advancement of the mediocre. We see it most obviously in our current government, half of whom I wouldn’t trust to make a cup of tea.
That I would agree with.
Which is one reason why I've always been adamant the way to get rid of them is to cut class sizes in the state sector dramatically. That would first, eliminate the edge private schools have and second, really improve education outcomes (much though I hate that cliche) for everyone.
The strange element in the debate about private and state education is the lack of interest in the actual issue.
Which is the better educational outcomes achieved by private schools.
At this point the debate generally devolves to Olympic swimming pools, thick poshos and my favourite - “Over education”.
Has anyone actually done a study on the effect of reducing class size without changing anything else?
Edit : The reason for the avoidance of the issue is obvious, to me.
Not in this country.
That would require you to reduce class sizes...
Once worked at a comprehensive that bust an absolute gut to get down to 24 maximum. Basically all the discrecionary spend in the budget went on that. That was probably not enough to really make a difference (you don't really change much by going from 30 to 24 in a well run school... Suspect the threshold is when 24 becomes 18). It ended up as more a selling point than anything else, and some of the consequent austerities (nothing printed full size, ever) were maddening.
Can't find the source, but I've seen it said that the key problem isn't so much staff as buildings. Cut the default class size from 30 to 20 and you need 50% more classrooms for the same number of children. And nobody has any intention of paying for that, especially in one go. Hence the use of TAs in primaries, to improve the adult:child ratio without changing the size of classes.
My bog standard state school had class sizes of 4 and 6
(For A level physics and chemistry - private sector beating, I guess. The trick being to make sure that not enough kids get good enough science GCSEs to encourage further study )
Further proof that Australia will soon be a republic.
The Australian state of Victoria has pulled out of hosting the 2026 Commonwealth Games due to projected cost overruns, placing the future of the quadrennial event in doubt.
The Premier of Victoria, Dan Andrews, said the cost of the Games, which would have been held in four regional hubs, could blow out to more than A$7 billion (about £3.7 billion) from a budgeted A$2.6 billion (£1.4 billion) if they went ahead.
“Frankly A$6-A$7 billion for a 12-day sporting event, we’re not doing that,” Andrews said. “I will not take money out of hospitals and schools to fund an event that is three times the cost as estimated and budgeted for last year.”
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
Yeah, "Mum and Dad sent me to Ampleforth/Sedbergh and all we could afford to stay in was a coffin in Whitby and battered cods' heads for dinner". "Ay, happen you were lucky lad, we only had plain batter!"
It's a real phenomenon, it's horribly guilt inducing for the children involved, and it's one of the best arguments AGAINST private education. Deprive parents of the opportunity to do this to themselves.
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
Yeah, "Mum and Dad sent me to Ampleforth/Sedbergh and all we could afford to stay in was a coffin in Whitby and battered cods' heads for dinner". "Ay, happen you were lucky lad, we only had plain batter!"
Whitby? Luxury! We had to make do with Scarborough
And Mum and Dad had to run their business from a FileyFax (yes, they WERE a thing - erm, definitely .
I have pretty low expectations of Starmer, but the economy will start to grow again next year, and that will create some leeway for him.
Though even if a Starmer government is little different policy wise, heavily constrained by the shackles of Brexit and the poor state of public finances and public services, this government needs to go. It is necessary for democracy to survive that the incompetence, mendacity and corruption that we have seen since 2015 are punished severely at the election.
Right, because Starmer is SOOOOOO competent and honest.
I can understand why people don't like the Conservative government. I don't myself, particularly.
But I'm truly baffled as to why (other than wishful thinking) anybody who has studied his record for more than about five minutes would think he'd be any better, when he lied his way into the leadership, worked for Jeremy Corbyn to be PM, and has no convincing answers to the problems facing the country, other than maybe planning reform, which has defeated better people than him.
He'd be much more likely to be Gordon Brown Mark 2.
Even if you are right - and I think you are exaggerating - if it is time for a change of government, for good reason, then the bottom line is that the only possible option is a Labour or Labour led government. So unless you know that Sir K etc are truly wicked, useless or incompetent, and more so than the present lot, then a rational centrist will vote for the Labour or LD candidate, whichever is more likely to win the seat.
BTW the absence of grandiose schemes in an era when the government possesses -£2trillion and is borrowing £100bn a year is a plus.
Cunning plan: give people absolutely no expectations except the single one that you’re nor the fcking Tories. Wheels come of said plan when you become indistinguishable from the fcking Tories,
That would surely require, inter alia, Starmer to spend a weekend in the company of the son of a foreign spy with no security, and Rayner to briefly take over the party only to throw a cluster munition into the Treasury a la the Trussterfuck.
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
You tell PBers today you didn't go to a private school or have a foreign holiday. They won't believe you.
You mock but there are children in our village who only have one pony.
They are lucky. My late wife had two horses We loved them but they cost an arm and a leg.i can't begin to imagine how much it costs to put your horse with a stable on someone's else's land....feed vet and shod them.
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
You tell PBers today you didn't go to a private school or have a foreign holiday. They won't believe you.
You went to a grammar school, they damage comprehensive school children more than fee paying schools could ever do.
Mrs Thatcher's second finest achievement was closing down so many grammar schools.
If you go to a grammar school, by definition you're not a 'comprehensive school child,' surely?
I know I’m talking grammar schools damaging nearby local comprehensives.
I think that depends on the area.
Somewhere like Kent - where it's effectively the old grammar/secondary modern system still in operation - that's almost certainly true.
In West Yorkshire, where there are only a handful of grammars still in existence, I don't think it has a large effect.
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
You tell PBers today you didn't go to a private school or have a foreign holiday. They won't believe you.
You went to a grammar school, they damage comprehensive school children more than fee paying schools could ever do.
Mrs Thatcher's second finest achievement was closing down so many grammar schools.
If you go to a grammar school, by definition you're not a 'comprehensive school child,' surely?
I know I’m talking grammar schools damaging nearby local comprehensives.
Except of course they don't. As I pointed out the other day based on the Sutton Trust report. They did a very wide ranging study into the effect of Grammars and whilst they found various reasons to criticise them they did find that non selective secondary schools in Grammar school areas had no worse results than those in non selective areas.
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
You tell PBers today you didn't go to a private school or have a foreign holiday. They won't believe you.
You went to a grammar school, they damage comprehensive school children more than fee paying schools could ever do.
Mrs Thatcher's second finest achievement was closing down so many grammar schools.
If you go to a grammar school, by definition you're not a 'comprehensive school child,' surely?
I know I’m talking grammar schools damaging nearby local comprehensives.
I think that depends on the area.
Somewhere like Kent - where it's effectively the old grammar/secondary modern system still in operation - that's almost certainly true.
In West Yorkshire, where there are only a handful of grammars still in existence, I don't think it has a large effect.
Taking Bucks as an example - the number of Grammar School children from outside the area means that so few local children get into the Grammar schools (compared to 20-30 years ago) that the Secondary Moderns are now all Comprehensive except for missing the very, very brightest.
Further proof that Australia will soon be a republic.
The Australian state of Victoria has pulled out of hosting the 2026 Commonwealth Games due to projected cost overruns, placing the future of the quadrennial event in doubt.
The Premier of Victoria, Dan Andrews, said the cost of the Games, which would have been held in four regional hubs, could blow out to more than A$7 billion (about £3.7 billion) from a budgeted A$2.6 billion (£1.4 billion) if they went ahead.
“Frankly A$6-A$7 billion for a 12-day sporting event, we’re not doing that,” Andrews said. “I will not take money out of hospitals and schools to fund an event that is three times the cost as estimated and budgeted for last year.”
Pathetic by the Labor government of Australian, the Liberal Opposition Leader rightfully slammed them as putting future hosting of sport events in Australia and the state at risk. Leftwing woke hatred of Australian history now even extends to the Commonwealth games it seems and no wonder polls for the Voice referendum in the autumn get ever closer as rural Australia and suburban Australia revolts against the left liberal urban elite
Or the Premier of Victoria realised that whilst the Commonwealths are “nice” they are second tier and the money should be spent on more vital things right now. Can you imagine the outrage if Rishi said “it’s ok we’ll take it on and spend a few billion on hosting” whilst the economy is rather uncomfortable right now?
Well they should have thought of that before bidding for the Games.
Unless Sydney can step up, and host the Games from mostly existing facilities, then no major sporting event is going to be awarded to Australia for decades. No running track at the old Olympic Stadium any more though.
Victoria were the only applicant.
The previous one was in Brum because Durban cancelled.
I don't think the Olympics gets a lot of bids either. It has just become too bloated.
Ah, that’s interesting. The issue is still Victorian mismanagement though, if they’re running at 300% of their projected budget three years out.
Yes, these things have become increasingly bloated, the next ‘summer’ Olympics awarded probably go to the Saudis in winter, because no-one else wants it.
Further proof that Australia will soon be a republic.
The Australian state of Victoria has pulled out of hosting the 2026 Commonwealth Games due to projected cost overruns, placing the future of the quadrennial event in doubt.
The Premier of Victoria, Dan Andrews, said the cost of the Games, which would have been held in four regional hubs, could blow out to more than A$7 billion (about £3.7 billion) from a budgeted A$2.6 billion (£1.4 billion) if they went ahead.
“Frankly A$6-A$7 billion for a 12-day sporting event, we’re not doing that,” Andrews said. “I will not take money out of hospitals and schools to fund an event that is three times the cost as estimated and budgeted for last year.”
Pathetic by the Labor government of Australian, the Liberal Opposition Leader rightfully slammed them as putting future hosting of sport events in Australia and the state at risk. Leftwing woke hatred of Australian history now even extends to the Commonwealth games it seems and no wonder polls for the Voice referendum in the autumn get ever closer as rural Australia and suburban Australia revolts against the left liberal urban elite
Or the Premier of Victoria realised that whilst the Commonwealths are “nice” they are second tier and the money should be spent on more vital things right now. Can you imagine the outrage if Rishi said “it’s ok we’ll take it on and spend a few billion on hosting” whilst the economy is rather uncomfortable right now?
Well they should have thought of that before bidding for the Games.
Unless Sydney can step up, and host the Games from mostly existing facilities, then no major sporting event is going to be awarded to Australia for decades. No running track at the old Olympic Stadium any more though.
Victoria were the only applicant.
The previous one was in Brum because Durban cancelled.
I don't think the Olympics gets a lot of bids either. It has just become too bloated.
It’s like so many things - worth it at 10 squilloon? No. Worth it at a sensible price. Yes.
The problem is the international outfits running sports have become dementedly corrupt - the Olympics has reached the point of people fairly openly demanding their “cut”. And the bigger the budget the more you can carve off.
Put the Olympics in Olympia, Greece. In a permanent facility. Starve the beast.
I have pretty low expectations of Starmer, but the economy will start to grow again next year, and that will create some leeway for him.
Though even if a Starmer government is little different policy wise, heavily constrained by the shackles of Brexit and the poor state of public finances and public services, this government needs to go. It is necessary for democracy to survive that the incompetence, mendacity and corruption that we have seen since 2015 are punished severely at the election.
Right, because Starmer is SOOOOOO competent and honest.
I can understand why people don't like the Conservative government. I don't myself, particularly.
But I'm truly baffled as to why (other than wishful thinking) anybody who has studied his record for more than about five minutes would think he'd be any better, when he lied his way into the leadership, worked for Jeremy Corbyn to be PM, and has no convincing answers to the problems facing the country, other than maybe planning reform, which has defeated better people than him.
He'd be much more likely to be Gordon Brown Mark 2.
Even if you are right - and I think you are exaggerating - if it is time for a change of government, for good reason, then the bottom line is that the only possible option is a Labour or Labour led government. So unless you know that Sir K etc are truly wicked, useless or incompetent, and more so than the present lot, then a rational centrist will vote for the Labour or LD candidate, whichever is more likely to win the seat.
BTW the absence of grandiose schemes in an era when the government possesses -£2trillion and is borrowing £100bn a year is a plus.
I don't think SKS and Reeves are truly incompetent or wicked. But the general pattern is that every time the Tories have been wrong, Labour have been calling for them to be more wrong (lockdown being the obvious example). Do I want the principles I want put into practice without competence, or the principles I don't want possibly put into practice competently? It's really not a great choice, but there's absolutely nothing about Labour which makes me want to vote for them. That said, I'd have walked over broken glass to vote Tory - even for a party led by Boris - when it was all about keeping Corbyn out. I rate Rishi higher than Boris, but I don't fear SKS like I feared Corbyn. Perhaps that will be enough for Labour. (My theory, which I trot out with dull regularity, is that by far the largest factor in the size of the Tory vote is the scariness of the Labour party).
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
You tell PBers today you didn't go to a private school or have a foreign holiday. They won't believe you.
You mock but there are children in our village who only have one pony.
They are lucky. My late wife had two horses We loved them but they cost an arm and a leg.i can't begin to imagine how much it costs to put your horse with a stable on someone's else's land....feed vet and shod them.
And then you have to pay to send them to private school.
PS @squareroot2 awhile ago you posted about the rip off prices at the petrol pump. I posted (although I don't think in response to you) that I assumed market forces were in play eg higher prices where competition was low, lower prices where competition was high and that shouldn't be the case that rip offs were happening. From recent news reports it would appear I was wrong and you were right. Good spot.
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
My parents starved to death to send me to private school. But it was worth it.
My parents kept me in a comp. Didn't even try to send me to a grammar school.
And they never took me abroad until I was 19.
Did it bother me? Not much. Didn't particularly want to go abroad. I suffer from heat migraines very easily so the idea of hot summers was not appealing.
Would I have done better academically at a private school? Almost certainly. There was a significant problem with disruption in my local school that I wouldn't have had elsewhere. And you do see some quite stupid people who went to private schools getting on well in exams and careers.
But would have I enjoyed it? Probably not very much. I don't like commuting and my local comp was literally at the end of my road whereas the nearest private school was a ten mile bus ride.
I think this is probably my main personal issue with private schools - the advancement of the mediocre. We see it most obviously in our current government, half of whom I wouldn’t trust to make a cup of tea.
That I would agree with.
Which is one reason why I've always been adamant the way to get rid of them is to cut class sizes in the state sector dramatically. That would first, eliminate the edge private schools have and second, really improve education outcomes (much though I hate that cliche) for everyone.
The strange element in the debate about private and state education is the lack of interest in the actual issue.
Which is the better educational outcomes achieved by private schools.
At this point the debate generally devolves to Olympic swimming pools, thick poshos and my favourite - “Over education”.
Has anyone actually done a study on the effect of reducing class size without changing anything else?
Edit : The reason for the avoidance of the issue is obvious, to me.
Not in this country.
That would require you to reduce class sizes...
Once worked at a comprehensive that bust an absolute gut to get down to 24 maximum. Basically all the discrecionary spend in the budget went on that. That was probably not enough to really make a difference (you don't really change much by going from 30 to 24 in a well run school... Suspect the threshold is when 24 becomes 18). It ended up as more a selling point than anything else, and some of the consequent austerities (nothing printed full size, ever) were maddening.
Can't find the source, but I've seen it said that the key problem isn't so much staff as buildings. Cut the default class size from 30 to 20 and you need 50% more classrooms for the same number of children. And nobody has any intention of paying for that, especially in one go. Hence the use of TAs in primaries, to improve the adult:child ratio without changing the size of classes.
What are the ranges of class size in private schools? 15 early on, with slack handfuls for some A level subjects?
My eldest has ended up in a class of 2 for A level Spanish…
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
You tell PBers today you didn't go to a private school or have a foreign holiday. They won't believe you.
You went to a grammar school, they damage comprehensive school children more than fee paying schools could ever do.
Mrs Thatcher's second finest achievement was closing down so many grammar schools.
If you go to a grammar school, by definition you're not a 'comprehensive school child,' surely?
I know I’m talking grammar schools damaging nearby local comprehensives.
Except of course they don't. As I pointed out the other day based on the Sutton Trust report. They did a very wide ranging study into the effect of Grammars and whilst they found various reasons to criticise them they did find that non selective secondary schools in Grammar school areas had no worse results than those in non selective areas.
To quote Monty Python "worse? How could it be worse?". The reason being that the elephant in the room is that most UK state secondary education is worse than shit.
And on that bombshell, I will go and do some work! lol
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
Yeah, "Mum and Dad sent me to Ampleforth/Sedbergh and all we could afford to stay in was a coffin in Whitby and battered cods' heads for dinner". "Ay, happen you were lucky lad, we only had plain batter!"
It's a real phenomenon, it's horribly guilt inducing for the children involved, and it's one of the best arguments AGAINST private education. Deprive parents of the opportunity to do this to themselves.
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
My parents starved to death to send me to private school. But it was worth it.
My parents kept me in a comp. Didn't even try to send me to a grammar school.
And they never took me abroad until I was 19.
Did it bother me? Not much. Didn't particularly want to go abroad. I suffer from heat migraines very easily so the idea of hot summers was not appealing.
Would I have done better academically at a private school? Almost certainly. There was a significant problem with disruption in my local school that I wouldn't have had elsewhere. And you do see some quite stupid people who went to private schools getting on well in exams and careers.
But would have I enjoyed it? Probably not very much. I don't like commuting and my local comp was literally at the end of my road whereas the nearest private school was a ten mile bus ride.
I think this is probably my main personal issue with private schools - the advancement of the mediocre. We see it most obviously in our current government, half of whom I wouldn’t trust to make a cup of tea.
That I would agree with.
Which is one reason why I've always been adamant the way to get rid of them is to cut class sizes in the state sector dramatically. That would first, eliminate the edge private schools have and second, really improve education outcomes (much though I hate that cliche) for everyone.
The strange element in the debate about private and state education is the lack of interest in the actual issue.
Which is the better educational outcomes achieved by private schools.
At this point the debate generally devolves to Olympic swimming pools, thick poshos and my favourite - “Over education”.
Has anyone actually done a study on the effect of reducing class size without changing anything else?
Edit : The reason for the avoidance of the issue is obvious, to me.
Not in this country.
That would require you to reduce class sizes...
Once worked at a comprehensive that bust an absolute gut to get down to 24 maximum. Basically all the discrecionary spend in the budget went on that. That was probably not enough to really make a difference (you don't really change much by going from 30 to 24 in a well run school... Suspect the threshold is when 24 becomes 18). It ended up as more a selling point than anything else, and some of the consequent austerities (nothing printed full size, ever) were maddening.
Can't find the source, but I've seen it said that the key problem isn't so much staff as buildings. Cut the default class size from 30 to 20 and you need 50% more classrooms for the same number of children. And nobody has any intention of paying for that, especially in one go. Hence the use of TAs in primaries, to improve the adult:child ratio without changing the size of classes.
What are the ranges of class size in private schools? 15 early on, with slack handfuls for some A level subjects?
My eldest has ended up in a class of 2 for A level Spanish…
At the private school I went to, class sizes were 30 in year 7, down to 24-ish at GCSE, down to 7-15 for A Level. Not much different from a state school. (But then, this was the era when private schools were affordable to the middle-middle class - things may be different now.)
Low class sizes are good, but are not the be all and end all. Class sizes of 30 are perfectly manageable when you have the luxury of weeding out all the most challenging children beforehand (either the disruptive ones or the ones who need large amounts of extra help).
I can't phrase this because I don't know what the Smithsons will allow me to say. But phrasing it in an anodyne manner as possible, the accusations against Dan Wotton involve far more men, more physical contact, more deception and more harassment than Huw Edwards. But despite this PB has a right-wing/anti-BBC slant and will refuse to discuss Wotton with the same glee. This is why Huw Edwards is currently in a mental asylum and Dan Wotton is interviewing Stanley Johnson, a [redacted] who [redacted] his wife and went on foreign holidays during Covid. It is a bad world.
Further proof that Australia will soon be a republic.
The Australian state of Victoria has pulled out of hosting the 2026 Commonwealth Games due to projected cost overruns, placing the future of the quadrennial event in doubt.
The Premier of Victoria, Dan Andrews, said the cost of the Games, which would have been held in four regional hubs, could blow out to more than A$7 billion (about £3.7 billion) from a budgeted A$2.6 billion (£1.4 billion) if they went ahead.
“Frankly A$6-A$7 billion for a 12-day sporting event, we’re not doing that,” Andrews said. “I will not take money out of hospitals and schools to fund an event that is three times the cost as estimated and budgeted for last year.”
Pathetic by the Labor government of Australian, the Liberal Opposition Leader rightfully slammed them as putting future hosting of sport events in Australia and the state at risk. Leftwing woke hatred of Australian history now even extends to the Commonwealth games it seems and no wonder polls for the Voice referendum in the autumn get ever closer as rural Australia and suburban Australia revolts against the left liberal urban elite
Or the Premier of Victoria realised that whilst the Commonwealths are “nice” they are second tier and the money should be spent on more vital things right now. Can you imagine the outrage if Rishi said “it’s ok we’ll take it on and spend a few billion on hosting” whilst the economy is rather uncomfortable right now?
Well they should have thought of that before bidding for the Games.
Unless Sydney can step up, and host the Games from mostly existing facilities, then no major sporting event is going to be awarded to Australia for decades. No running track at the old Olympic Stadium any more though.
They are due to be hosting the 2032 Olympics already, so will be judged rather more on the success of that than the Commonwealth Games.
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
You tell PBers today you didn't go to a private school or have a foreign holiday. They won't believe you.
You went to a grammar school, they damage comprehensive school children more than fee paying schools could ever do.
Mrs Thatcher's second finest achievement was closing down so many grammar schools.
If you go to a grammar school, by definition you're not a 'comprehensive school child,' surely?
I know I’m talking grammar schools damaging nearby local comprehensives.
Except of course they don't. As I pointed out the other day based on the Sutton Trust report. They did a very wide ranging study into the effect of Grammars and whilst they found various reasons to criticise them they did find that non selective secondary schools in Grammar school areas had no worse results than those in non selective areas.
From the Sutton Trust,
However, in areas with the greatest concentration of selective schools, they found there was a small negative effect of not attending a grammar: a tenth of a GCSE grade per subject taken. Furthermore, this effect is greater for disadvantaged children, with FSM pupils achieving 0.2 grades lower per subject. Prof. David Jesson has also pointed out the greater attainment gap in selective compared to non-selective areas. Work by Education Datalab has also demonstrated that in the four local authorities with highest proportions of grammars, the system has created winners and losers, with those attending secondary moderns achieving 0.2 of a GCSE grade less than average. While the research is mixed on this issue, the consensus remains that grammar schools certainly don’t have a positive effect on overall attainment, and are likely to have a small negative effect, particularly in more selective areas, and for pupils from poorer backgrounds. As to the long term effects of selection on mobility, longitudinal research has also shown that selective education increases income inequality, with those on low incomes who were brought up in selective areas earning less than their counterparts in comprehensive areas.
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
Yeah, "Mum and Dad sent me to Ampleforth/Sedbergh and all we could afford to stay in was a coffin in Whitby and battered cods' heads for dinner". "Ay, happen you were lucky lad, we only had plain batter!"
It's a real phenomenon, it's horribly guilt inducing for the children involved, and it's one of the best arguments AGAINST private education. Deprive parents of the opportunity to do this to themselves.
Hmm, interesting perspective!
Strongly felt. Piece in the local paper a bit ago, parents doing exactly this shtick, but we don't begrudge it because our parents did exactly the same for us. The kicker being they were both low level solicitors at the Local Authority. Bus drivers have better paid and more rewarding jobs. It's just intergenerational misery. Say fuck it, send them to the comp and go to Club Med.
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
My parents starved to death to send me to private school. But it was worth it.
My parents kept me in a comp. Didn't even try to send me to a grammar school.
And they never took me abroad until I was 19.
Did it bother me? Not much. Didn't particularly want to go abroad. I suffer from heat migraines very easily so the idea of hot summers was not appealing.
Would I have done better academically at a private school? Almost certainly. There was a significant problem with disruption in my local school that I wouldn't have had elsewhere. And you do see some quite stupid people who went to private schools getting on well in exams and careers.
But would have I enjoyed it? Probably not very much. I don't like commuting and my local comp was literally at the end of my road whereas the nearest private school was a ten mile bus ride.
I think this is probably my main personal issue with private schools - the advancement of the mediocre. We see it most obviously in our current government, half of whom I wouldn’t trust to make a cup of tea.
That I would agree with.
Which is one reason why I've always been adamant the way to get rid of them is to cut class sizes in the state sector dramatically. That would first, eliminate the edge private schools have and second, really improve education outcomes (much though I hate that cliche) for everyone.
The strange element in the debate about private and state education is the lack of interest in the actual issue.
Which is the better educational outcomes achieved by private schools.
At this point the debate generally devolves to Olympic swimming pools, thick poshos and my favourite - “Over education”.
Has anyone actually done a study on the effect of reducing class size without changing anything else?
Edit : The reason for the avoidance of the issue is obvious, to me.
Not in this country.
That would require you to reduce class sizes...
Once worked at a comprehensive that bust an absolute gut to get down to 24 maximum. Basically all the discrecionary spend in the budget went on that. That was probably not enough to really make a difference (you don't really change much by going from 30 to 24 in a well run school... Suspect the threshold is when 24 becomes 18). It ended up as more a selling point than anything else, and some of the consequent austerities (nothing printed full size, ever) were maddening.
Can't find the source, but I've seen it said that the key problem isn't so much staff as buildings. Cut the default class size from 30 to 20 and you need 50% more classrooms for the same number of children. And nobody has any intention of paying for that, especially in one go. Hence the use of TAs in primaries, to improve the adult:child ratio without changing the size of classes.
What are the ranges of class size in private schools? 15 early on, with slack handfuls for some A level subjects?
My eldest has ended up in a class of 2 for A level Spanish…
At the private school I went to, class sizes were 30 in year 7, down to 24-ish at GCSE, down to 7-15 for A Level. Not much different from a state school. (But then, this was the era when private schools were affordable to the middle-middle class - things may be different now.)
Low class sizes are good, but are not the be all and end all. Class sizes of 30 are perfectly manageable when you have the luxury of weeding out all the most challenging children beforehand (either the disruptive ones or the ones who need large amounts of extra help).
Part of the big push in private education towards academic results ended up as smaller class sizes. From talking to people this wasn’t necessarily the plan - but broader curricula (more subjects) ended up with smaller class sizes and it took off from there.
The facilities have changed dramatically since I went, of course. In the 80s it was quite threadbare - at a leading private school. Went back there, not long ago (friends were considering it). Class sizes are definitely down. A lot. And everything shiny.
I can't phrase this because I don't know what the Smithsons will allow me to say. But phrasing it in an anodyne manner as possible, the accusations against Dan Wotton involve far more men, more physical contact, more deception and more harassment than Huw Edwards. But despite this PB has a right-wing/anti-BBC slant and will refuse to discuss Wotton with the same glee. This is why Huw Edwards is currently in a mental asylum and Dan Wotton is interviewing Stanley Johnson, a [redacted] who [redacted] his wife and went on foreign holidays during Covid. It is a bad world.
It's much easier than that. I know who Huw Edwards is.
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
My parents starved to death to send me to private school. But it was worth it.
My parents kept me in a comp. Didn't even try to send me to a grammar school.
And they never took me abroad until I was 19.
Did it bother me? Not much. Didn't particularly want to go abroad. I suffer from heat migraines very easily so the idea of hot summers was not appealing.
Would I have done better academically at a private school? Almost certainly. There was a significant problem with disruption in my local school that I wouldn't have had elsewhere. And you do see some quite stupid people who went to private schools getting on well in exams and careers.
But would have I enjoyed it? Probably not very much. I don't like commuting and my local comp was literally at the end of my road whereas the nearest private school was a ten mile bus ride.
I think this is probably my main personal issue with private schools - the advancement of the mediocre. We see it most obviously in our current government, half of whom I wouldn’t trust to make a cup of tea.
That I would agree with.
Which is one reason why I've always been adamant the way to get rid of them is to cut class sizes in the state sector dramatically. That would first, eliminate the edge private schools have and second, really improve education outcomes (much though I hate that cliche) for everyone.
The strange element in the debate about private and state education is the lack of interest in the actual issue.
Which is the better educational outcomes achieved by private schools.
At this point the debate generally devolves to Olympic swimming pools, thick poshos and my favourite - “Over education”.
Has anyone actually done a study on the effect of reducing class size without changing anything else?
Edit : The reason for the avoidance of the issue is obvious, to me.
Not in this country.
That would require you to reduce class sizes...
Once worked at a comprehensive that bust an absolute gut to get down to 24 maximum. Basically all the discrecionary spend in the budget went on that. That was probably not enough to really make a difference (you don't really change much by going from 30 to 24 in a well run school... Suspect the threshold is when 24 becomes 18). It ended up as more a selling point than anything else, and some of the consequent austerities (nothing printed full size, ever) were maddening.
Can't find the source, but I've seen it said that the key problem isn't so much staff as buildings. Cut the default class size from 30 to 20 and you need 50% more classrooms for the same number of children. And nobody has any intention of paying for that, especially in one go. Hence the use of TAs in primaries, to improve the adult:child ratio without changing the size of classes.
What are the ranges of class size in private schools? 15 early on, with slack handfuls for some A level subjects?
My eldest has ended up in a class of 2 for A level Spanish…
In my experience, there comes a point where class sizes are too small - 2 for A-level Spanish, for example. That's because the benefits of being in a group large enough to engender healthy debate and discussion are lost. I reckon anything less than 6 is too small for the cut and thrust of teacher-pupil and pupil-pupil interactions and the sharing of different ideas to benefit learning.
I can't phrase this because I don't know what the Smithsons will allow me to say. But phrasing it in an anodyne manner as possible, the accusations against Dan Wotton involve far more men, more physical contact, more deception and more harassment than Huw Edwards. But despite this PB has a right-wing/anti-BBC slant and will refuse to discuss Wotton with the same glee. This is why Huw Edwards is currently in a mental asylum and Dan Wotton is interviewing Stanley Johnson, a [redacted] who [redacted] his wife and went on foreign holidays during Covid. It is a bad world.
There are elements of that for sure, but its also partly not many people know who Dan Wotton is, and with Edwards the slow reveal was the real driver of the story, not what he got up to.
I can't phrase this because I don't know what the Smithsons will allow me to say. But phrasing it in an anodyne manner as possible, the accusations against Dan Wotton involve far more men, more physical contact, more deception and more harassment than Huw Edwards. But despite this PB has a right-wing/anti-BBC slant and will refuse to discuss Wotton with the same glee. This is why Huw Edwards is currently in a mental asylum and Dan Wotton is interviewing Stanley Johnson, a [redacted] who [redacted] his wife and went on foreign holidays during Covid. It is a bad world.
There are elements of that for sure, but its also partly not many people know who Dan Wotton is, and with Edwards the slow reveal was the real driver of the story, not what he got up to.
Yep. I suspect 95% of people would not have a clue who Wotton is.
I can't phrase this because I don't know what the Smithsons will allow me to say. But phrasing it in an anodyne manner as possible, the accusations against Dan Wotton involve far more men, more physical contact, more deception and more harassment than Huw Edwards. But despite this PB has a right-wing/anti-BBC slant and will refuse to discuss Wotton with the same glee. This is why Huw Edwards is currently in a mental asylum and Dan Wotton is interviewing Stanley Johnson, a [redacted] who [redacted] his wife and went on foreign holidays during Covid. It is a bad world.
There are elements of that for sure, but its also partly not many people know who Dan Wotton is, and with Edwards the slow reveal was the real driver of the story, not what he got up to.
Sounds like the makers of the allegations would have a case against the employers (former and present) for not stopping his behaviour in a work environment. @PB lawyers?
Israel lent some ancient archaeological artifacts to the White House in 2019. They went missing and are now apparently in Mar-a-Lago, with Israeli authorities unable to get them back from Trump https://twitter.com/ariehkovler/status/1681191003624013824
I can't phrase this because I don't know what the Smithsons will allow me to say. But phrasing it in an anodyne manner as possible, the accusations against Dan Wotton involve far more men, more physical contact, more deception and more harassment than Huw Edwards. But despite this PB has a right-wing/anti-BBC slant and will refuse to discuss Wotton with the same glee. This is why Huw Edwards is currently in a mental asylum and Dan Wotton is interviewing Stanley Johnson, a [redacted] who [redacted] his wife and went on foreign holidays during Covid. It is a bad world.
Who is Dan Wotton? Could it be that his unimportance is key to the difference. I have never knowingly encountered him.
I can't phrase this because I don't know what the Smithsons will allow me to say. But phrasing it in an anodyne manner as possible, the accusations against Dan Wotton involve far more men, more physical contact, more deception and more harassment than Huw Edwards. But despite this PB has a right-wing/anti-BBC slant and will refuse to discuss Wotton with the same glee. This is why Huw Edwards is currently in a mental asylum and Dan Wotton is interviewing Stanley Johnson, a [redacted] who [redacted] his wife and went on foreign holidays during Covid. It is a bad world.
It's much easier than that. I know who Huw Edwards is.
I agree - I have no idea who Dan Wotton is
However, Huw Edwards depression and treatment for it has been ongoing for 20 years and it is unsurprising he has checked into a clinic following the recent allegations from the Sun and the BBC itself
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
My parents starved to death to send me to private school. But it was worth it.
My parents kept me in a comp. Didn't even try to send me to a grammar school.
And they never took me abroad until I was 19.
Did it bother me? Not much. Didn't particularly want to go abroad. I suffer from heat migraines very easily so the idea of hot summers was not appealing.
Would I have done better academically at a private school? Almost certainly. There was a significant problem with disruption in my local school that I wouldn't have had elsewhere. And you do see some quite stupid people who went to private schools getting on well in exams and careers.
But would have I enjoyed it? Probably not very much. I don't like commuting and my local comp was literally at the end of my road whereas the nearest private school was a ten mile bus ride.
I think this is probably my main personal issue with private schools - the advancement of the mediocre. We see it most obviously in our current government, half of whom I wouldn’t trust to make a cup of tea.
That I would agree with.
Which is one reason why I've always been adamant the way to get rid of them is to cut class sizes in the state sector dramatically. That would first, eliminate the edge private schools have and second, really improve education outcomes (much though I hate that cliche) for everyone.
The strange element in the debate about private and state education is the lack of interest in the actual issue.
Which is the better educational outcomes achieved by private schools.
At this point the debate generally devolves to Olympic swimming pools, thick poshos and my favourite - “Over education”.
Has anyone actually done a study on the effect of reducing class size without changing anything else?
Edit : The reason for the avoidance of the issue is obvious, to me.
Not in this country.
That would require you to reduce class sizes...
Once worked at a comprehensive that bust an absolute gut to get down to 24 maximum. Basically all the discrecionary spend in the budget went on that. That was probably not enough to really make a difference (you don't really change much by going from 30 to 24 in a well run school... Suspect the threshold is when 24 becomes 18). It ended up as more a selling point than anything else, and some of the consequent austerities (nothing printed full size, ever) were maddening.
Can't find the source, but I've seen it said that the key problem isn't so much staff as buildings. Cut the default class size from 30 to 20 and you need 50% more classrooms for the same number of children. And nobody has any intention of paying for that, especially in one go. Hence the use of TAs in primaries, to improve the adult:child ratio without changing the size of classes.
What are the ranges of class size in private schools? 15 early on, with slack handfuls for some A level subjects?
My eldest has ended up in a class of 2 for A level Spanish…
In my experience, there comes a point where class sizes are too small - 2 for A-level Spanish, for example. That's because the benefits of being in a group large enough to engender healthy debate and discussion are lost. I reckon anything less than 6 is too small for the cut and thrust of teacher-pupil and pupil-pupil interactions and the sharing of different ideas to benefit learning.
My education take that will make everyone hate me is that schools should just get out of the business of teaching A Levels, and do that in sixth form colleges instead. Lots of schools run A Level groups that are too small to be economic and probably aren't ideal from an educational point of view.
Trouble is that teachers like their tiny sixth form class (I know I did) and parents are often up in arms at the very idea.
I can't phrase this because I don't know what the Smithsons will allow me to say. But phrasing it in an anodyne manner as possible, the accusations against Dan Wotton involve far more men, more physical contact, more deception and more harassment than Huw Edwards. But despite this PB has a right-wing/anti-BBC slant and will refuse to discuss Wotton with the same glee. This is why Huw Edwards is currently in a mental asylum and Dan Wotton is interviewing Stanley Johnson, a [redacted] who [redacted] his wife and went on foreign holidays during Covid. It is a bad world.
Dan Wootton didn’t tell the Nation, and the World, that the Queen had passed on.
Yes, it does appear to be another media scandal, and he’s getting cancelled at best. Let’s hope that the rest of the media remembers to carry on reporting the actual news this time.
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
My parents starved to death to send me to private school. But it was worth it.
My parents kept me in a comp. Didn't even try to send me to a grammar school.
And they never took me abroad until I was 19.
Did it bother me? Not much. Didn't particularly want to go abroad. I suffer from heat migraines very easily so the idea of hot summers was not appealing.
Would I have done better academically at a private school? Almost certainly. There was a significant problem with disruption in my local school that I wouldn't have had elsewhere. And you do see some quite stupid people who went to private schools getting on well in exams and careers.
But would have I enjoyed it? Probably not very much. I don't like commuting and my local comp was literally at the end of my road whereas the nearest private school was a ten mile bus ride.
I think this is probably my main personal issue with private schools - the advancement of the mediocre. We see it most obviously in our current government, half of whom I wouldn’t trust to make a cup of tea.
That I would agree with.
Which is one reason why I've always been adamant the way to get rid of them is to cut class sizes in the state sector dramatically. That would first, eliminate the edge private schools have and second, really improve education outcomes (much though I hate that cliche) for everyone.
The strange element in the debate about private and state education is the lack of interest in the actual issue.
Which is the better educational outcomes achieved by private schools.
At this point the debate generally devolves to Olympic swimming pools, thick poshos and my favourite - “Over education”.
Has anyone actually done a study on the effect of reducing class size without changing anything else?
Edit : The reason for the avoidance of the issue is obvious, to me.
Not in this country.
That would require you to reduce class sizes...
Once worked at a comprehensive that bust an absolute gut to get down to 24 maximum. Basically all the discrecionary spend in the budget went on that. That was probably not enough to really make a difference (you don't really change much by going from 30 to 24 in a well run school... Suspect the threshold is when 24 becomes 18). It ended up as more a selling point than anything else, and some of the consequent austerities (nothing printed full size, ever) were maddening.
Can't find the source, but I've seen it said that the key problem isn't so much staff as buildings. Cut the default class size from 30 to 20 and you need 50% more classrooms for the same number of children. And nobody has any intention of paying for that, especially in one go. Hence the use of TAs in primaries, to improve the adult:child ratio without changing the size of classes.
What are the ranges of class size in private schools? 15 early on, with slack handfuls for some A level subjects?
My eldest has ended up in a class of 2 for A level Spanish…
In my experience, there comes a point where class sizes are too small - 2 for A-level Spanish, for example. That's because the benefits of being in a group large enough to engender healthy debate and discussion are lost. I reckon anything less than 6 is too small for the cut and thrust of teacher-pupil and pupil-pupil interactions and the sharing of different ideas to benefit learning.
There were three of us doing A Level Physics. It was great. Between us we agreed a couple of parts of the syllabus none of us wanted to cover, allowing more time to focus on other topics. It worked for us.
Cunning plan: give people absolutely no expectations except the single one that you’re nor the fcking Tories. Wheels come of said plan when you become indistinguishable from the fcking Tories,
That would surely require, inter alia, Starmer to spend a weekend in the company of the son of a foreign spy with no security, and Rayner to briefly take over the party only to throw a cluster munition into the Treasury a la the Trussterfuck.
You are getting your Lebedevs mixed up. Boris spent his minder-free weekend with the KGB man (retired) Alexander whose son, Lord Lebedev printed pro-Boris propaganda in the Evening Standard and was duly elevated to the House of Lords over the objections of MI5 and Carole Cadwalladr.
I know averages can be deceptive but how many families who use private schools *don't* have a hol abroad?
In answer to the second question, a very large number. It was one of the things you noticed in the mid-level private schools I worked in and with, that many of the children talked about their camping holidays in Devon.
I don't take foreign holidays myself very often (I haven't left the country since Covid hit) so I don't know how much they cost these days. However, prep school fees often hover around the £5-6,000 mark which doesn't sound ridiculously out of line for a family holiday in a tourist hotspot in say Spain.
Keegan is an idiot but she isn't making a stupid point here. Far too much discourse about private schools is skewed towards the top end, not considering the cheaper end.
That has rather different problems of its own that need addressing but they never get talked about.
Are you sure about your figure of £5k-£6k? From what I can see that is the typical average PER TERM. In which case £15k would get you a good holiday in Europe.
£15k is now about average day school fees. Inflation in school fees has been running a lot higher than inflation in holidays for quite some time. Back in my day(!) three decades ago, a week in Majorca for a family was about the same as the year’s school fees.
Add me to the list of PBers who had one foreign holiday in seven years while attending a private secondary school. It’s a decision made by many, many parents in that boat.
Is there a list of PBers who never set foot outside the UK until they turned 20 and whose parents would never even have considered sending them to private school? (State grammar and a week camping in Wales for me)
It's a bit four Yorkshiremen on here this morning.
Yeah, "Mum and Dad sent me to Ampleforth/Sedbergh and all we could afford to stay in was a coffin in Whitby and battered cods' heads for dinner". "Ay, happen you were lucky lad, we only had plain batter!"
It's a real phenomenon, it's horribly guilt inducing for the children involved, and it's one of the best arguments AGAINST private education. Deprive parents of the opportunity to do this to themselves.
Hmm, interesting perspective!
Strongly felt. Piece in the local paper a bit ago, parents doing exactly this shtick, but we don't begrudge it because our parents did exactly the same for us. The kicker being they were both low level solicitors at the Local Authority. Bus drivers have better paid and more rewarding jobs. It's just intergenerational misery. Say fuck it, send them to the comp and go to Club Med.
It seems to be part of the psychological job that public schools do on their charges. My dad absolutely loathed being a boarder at Edinburgh Academy and being released from that to the care of his Bayble gran and the Nicholson Institute was the best thing that ever happened to him, yet 35 years later he was blathering on about 'getting the boys to Gordonstoun'.
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And they never took me abroad until I was 19.
Did it bother me? Not much. Didn't particularly want to go abroad. I suffer from heat migraines very easily so the idea of hot summers was not appealing.
Would I have done better academically at a private school? Almost certainly. There was a significant problem with disruption in my local school that I wouldn't have had elsewhere. And you do see some quite stupid people who went to private schools getting on well in exams and careers.
But would have I enjoyed it? Probably not very much. I don't like commuting and my local comp was literally at the end of my road whereas the nearest private school was a ten mile bus ride.
"The Iron Lady" was an insult carefully crafted by committee. No really. Multiple committees, actually, of the KGB propaganda office. So lots of chubby, middle aged (and elderly) men, spent man-centuries on coming up with an insult to a woman. And they really managed a spectacular success there....
You lot born with a whippet down yer trousers, yer had it made lads
There is one GP practice in this small town, with three doctors. A week or so ago. Somebody posted on our Facebook page that they’d rung up for appointment and been told the first one was in three weeks.
On the same day, I rang up for an appointment and was seen that afternoon!
I do wonder about the discrepancy!
Starmer will inherit a much tougher economic environment with higher inflation and more borrowing especially
Which is one reason why I've always been adamant the way to get rid of them is to cut class sizes in the state sector dramatically. That would first, eliminate the edge private schools have and second, really improve education outcomes (much though I hate that cliche) for everyone.
https://yarletschool.uk/index.php/general-information/fees
Mrs Thatcher's second finest achievement was closing down so many grammar schools.
I think the expectation of people who reflect at all is that the major reason for a change of government is in the area of integrity, decency and competence, without which the nation and its culture cannot really improve.
Sir K faces of course the usual nonsense expectations from the extremes, but most people know we are borrowing to pay current account expenditure already, with also £100 bn annual debt management bill.
Sir K faces, from the middling sort who will elect him, very few expectations in concrete terms. He is managing expectations more severely than I would expect (the 2 child cap thing grates on our collective conscience and common sense, and our sense of support for those who do the tough job of bringing up lots of children).
Principle, purpose, a consistent philosophy and a developing plan with fiscal discipline is all we can expect - plus growth in competence. In the UK as we are now it is actually asking a lot.
So we're at 1.4% inflation from food this month for starters.
9.6% looks low to me tbh.
Restaurants, hotels, recreation & culture @ 24.4% combined. LOL.
https://www.chasegrammar.com/admissions/uk-fees-bursaries-scholarships
Or St Dominic's in Brewood
https://stdominicsgrammarschool.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/St-Dominics-Grammar-School-Fees-2023-2024.pdf
You can pay more than that, of course, but that just underlines my point we shouldn't be talking about 'private schools' as a lump.
less than that.
How much does a family holiday abroad cost? How long is a piece of string? Articles like this suggest £3000 or so for a family for a week, which feels about right in my experience.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/jun/18/summer-holidays-cheaper-uk-france-spain-prices-cost
Conclusion: Keegan may be technically right, there are private schools cheaper than a family holiday. But it's jolly misleading and does come across a bit "let them eat cake".
https://bylinetimes.com/2023/07/17/gb-news-star-dan-wootton-unmasked-in-cash-for-sexual-images-catfishing-scandal/
Mind, one of the grammars was infamously bad. Old Shire joke - 'if you had a choice between going to Crypt and going to Borstal, what crime would you commit?'
Yet people still did go there for reasons which mystified me. It actually had worse GCSE results than Newent.
I don't remember it being a choice though. The primary school simply picked a number of us to take the 11-plus and if you passed you went. There was no tutoring or all that malarkey in those days. Thankfully (for me) the grammar was also the closest secondary school to our home, which meant the council would pay my bus fare. If it hasn't been, my father would have vetoed it since we were poor and he considered education to be a waste of time.
I can understand why people don't like the Conservative government. I don't myself, particularly.
But I'm truly baffled as to why (other than wishful thinking) anybody who has studied his record for more than about five minutes would think he'd be any better, when he lied his way into the leadership, worked for Jeremy Corbyn to be PM, and has no convincing answers to the problems facing the country, other than maybe planning reform, which has defeated better people than him.
He'd be much more likely to be Gordon Brown Mark 2.
Which is the better educational outcomes achieved by private schools.
At this point the debate generally devolves to Olympic swimming pools, thick poshos and my favourite - “Over education”.
Has anyone actually done a study on the effect of reducing class size without changing anything else?
Edit : The reason for the avoidance of the issue is obvious, to me.
The new one that was designed so you can't tutor children through it? Making me a fortune.
The stupidity of the people who designed it is disturbing.
Though tbf there was quite a buzz when the Commonwealth games were held in Glasgow.
(I'm far from convinced the more expensive ones are, anyway.)
That would require you to reduce class sizes...
It's like a @HYUFD jackpot!
Not sure where 'woke hatred of history' comes into it.
HYUFD has the oddest obsessions.
The DfE immediately seized on this and said teachers should all stop whinging about class sizes.
Teachers immediately pointed out the DfE were talking shit (as usual) because the authors had not noticed that the smaller classes were invariably bottom sets.
Curiously, the DfE didn't accept this.
Unless Sydney can step up, and host the Games from mostly existing facilities, then no major sporting event is going to be awarded to Australia for decades. No running track at the old Olympic Stadium any more though.
Think, man, think.
It's like the "security" screws - every year, a new designs of screw heads you can't open with a normal screwdriver. Every year the manufacturers of screwdriver sets bring out a bigger set. The same manufacturers, for both screws and screwdrivers.
How would it work for £20k, £200k ?
The previous one was in Brum because Durban cancelled.
I don't think the Olympics gets a lot of bids either. It has just become too bloated.
Can't find the source, but I've seen it said that the key problem isn't so much staff as buildings. Cut the default class size from 30 to 20 and you need 50% more classrooms for the same number of children. And nobody has any intention of paying for that, especially in one go. Hence the use of TAs in primaries, to improve the adult:child ratio without changing the size of classes.
What will change is that the right will start screaming about the inadequacies of Labour and Labour will blame it on the Tories.
Same old, same old.
(For A level physics and chemistry - private sector beating, I guess. The trick being to make sure that not enough kids get good enough science GCSEs to encourage further study
The problem is when the corruption and grandiosity gets out of hand.
BTW the absence of grandiose schemes in an era when the government possesses -£2trillion and is borrowing £100bn a year is a plus.
Somewhere like Kent - where it's effectively the old grammar/secondary modern system still in operation - that's almost certainly true.
In West Yorkshire, where there are only a handful of grammars still in existence, I don't think it has a large effect.
Keir Starmer has said today that a Labour govt would keep the 2 child benefit cap
Our poll this week shows 60% of Britons want to keep the cap in place, as do Labour voters by 47% to 35%
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1680541973231304707?s=20
Yes, these things have become increasingly bloated, the next ‘summer’ Olympics awarded probably go to the Saudis in winter, because no-one else wants it.
The problem is the international outfits running sports have become dementedly corrupt - the Olympics has reached the point of people fairly openly demanding their “cut”. And the bigger the budget the more you can carve off.
Put the Olympics in Olympia, Greece. In a permanent facility. Starve the beast.
That said, I'd have walked over broken glass to vote Tory - even for a party led by Boris - when it was all about keeping Corbyn out. I rate Rishi higher than Boris, but I don't fear SKS like I feared Corbyn. Perhaps that will be enough for Labour. (My theory, which I trot out with dull regularity, is that by far the largest factor in the size of the Tory vote is the scariness of the Labour party).
PS @squareroot2 awhile ago you posted about the rip off prices at the petrol pump. I posted (although I don't think in response to you) that I assumed market forces were in play eg higher prices where competition was low, lower prices where competition was high and that shouldn't be the case that rip offs were happening. From recent news reports it would appear I was wrong and you were right. Good spot.
My eldest has ended up in a class of 2 for A level Spanish…
And on that bombshell, I will go and do some work! lol
Low class sizes are good, but are not the be all and end all. Class sizes of 30 are perfectly manageable when you have the luxury of weeding out all the most challenging children beforehand (either the disruptive ones or the ones who need large amounts of extra help).
However, in areas with the greatest concentration of selective schools, they found there was a small negative effect of not attending a grammar: a tenth of a GCSE grade per subject taken.
Furthermore, this effect is greater for disadvantaged children, with FSM pupils achieving 0.2 grades lower per subject. Prof. David Jesson has also pointed out the greater attainment gap in selective compared to non-selective areas. Work by Education Datalab has also demonstrated that in the four local authorities with highest proportions
of grammars, the system has created winners and losers, with those attending
secondary moderns achieving 0.2 of a GCSE grade less than average.
While the research is mixed on this issue, the consensus remains that grammar
schools certainly don’t have a positive effect on overall attainment, and are likely
to have a small negative effect, particularly in more selective areas, and for pupils from
poorer backgrounds. As to the long term effects of selection on mobility, longitudinal
research has also shown that selective education increases income inequality, with
those on low incomes who were brought up in selective areas earning less than their
counterparts in comprehensive areas.
https://www.suttontrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Gaps-in-Grammar_For-website.pdf
The facilities have changed dramatically since I went, of course. In the 80s it was quite threadbare - at a leading private school. Went back there, not long ago (friends were considering it). Class sizes are definitely down. A lot. And everything shiny.
https://twitter.com/ariehkovler/status/1681191003624013824
However, Huw Edwards depression and treatment for it has been ongoing for 20 years and it is unsurprising he has checked into a clinic following the recent allegations from the Sun and the BBC itself
Trouble is that teachers like their tiny sixth form class (I know I did) and parents are often up in arms at the very idea.
Yes, it does appear to be another media scandal, and he’s getting cancelled at best. Let’s hope that the rest of the media remembers to carry on reporting the actual news this time.