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Today’s must read – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,161
edited July 2023 in General
Today’s must read – politicalbetting.com

Is a Labour victory a done-deal? No, says @PeterKellner1 A) It's not 1997—Tories are hated more than Labour is loved.B) Different polling questions get different results—it's likely a closer race.C) Electoral geography is against Labour.https://t.co/s7sHDCMikO

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148
    1st.
  • Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 689
    Three.....three at last....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Penddu2 said:

    Three.....three at last....

    It will be a bigger majority than that, I think.
    Kellner notwithstanding.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Good thread on why RFK Jnr is as clueless about population genetics as he is about virology.

    RFK Jr. cites Hou et al. (/doi.org/10.1186/s12916-020-01673-z) to justify his intimating that someone, somehow, tried to engineer SARS-CoV2 to target ACE2 in Black & non-Jewish White folks, while sparing Chinese & Ashkenazi folks.
    https://twitter.com/GenomeNathan/status/1680492167331020800
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    One of more bizarre political stories I've come across.
    And possibly where some of Leon's political ideas originate.
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/07/16/bronze-age-pervert-masculinity-00105427
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    Nigelb said:

    One of more bizarre political stories I've come across.
    And possibly where some of Leon's political ideas originate.
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/07/16/bronze-age-pervert-masculinity-00105427

    When I heard ‘Bronze Age pervert’ I naturally thought you were referring to Leon’s ideas for flint dildos.

    But I see it’s a Twitter account.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    There are rumours that the Kerch Bridge has been hit:

    https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1680805295524573185

    No idea if this is true, if it's just the road bridge and not the rail bridge, etc, etc.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,215
    Nigelb said:

    One of more bizarre political stories I've come across.
    And possibly where some of Leon's political ideas originate.
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/07/16/bronze-age-pervert-masculinity-00105427

    When you’re on the internet, a way of getting internet fame by having extreme views is doing so consistently, authentically and playing a role,” Danielle Lee Tomson, a writer and researcher who wrote her Ph.D. dissertation on conservative influencers. She compared the way BAP operates to “performance art” and to kayfabe, the concept in professional wrestling of acting out stories and characters to heighten the drama of staged fights.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    There are rumours that the Kerch Bridge has been hit:

    https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1680805295524573185

    No idea if this is true, if it's just the road bridge and not the rail bridge, etc, etc.

    Have they actually reopened the rail bridge yet? It was scheduled for the start of the month but I haven't seen any official announcement.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,215
    Oh, and on topic...

    The final GB score in 1997 was L43 C31. So my starting point is that if that's the final score next time, we're looking at a big Conservative defeat. The rise of the SNP will take quite a bit of the Labour majority, but there's a lot to spare from a 179 seat majority.

    The current wikiworm average is L46 C26. By comparison, ICM through 1996 (and that's the only polling with a comparable mechanism) was about L47 C31. The swingback (such as it was) was @MoonRabbit's observation that some voters realise that an anti-Conservative vote in their seat was Lib Dem.

    It doesn't have to be 1997, and the key determinant is how efficient the anti-Conservative vote can become in one go. It was already pretty efficient in 1992, but was crazy inefficient in 2019.

    But 1997 increasingly looks like the base map to use- probably as in "not as good as 1997 for Labour, but roughly as bad for the Conservatives."
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    ydoethur said:

    There are rumours that the Kerch Bridge has been hit:

    https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1680805295524573185

    No idea if this is true, if it's just the road bridge and not the rail bridge, etc, etc.

    Have they actually reopened the rail bridge yet? It was scheduled for the start of the month but I haven't seen any official announcement.
    Yes, back in May. Although there have bene reports of some nasty cracks appearing in the piers.

    Last night's attack is reported as having been done by a sea drone or cruise missiles.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    ydoethur said:

    There are rumours that the Kerch Bridge has been hit:

    https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1680805295524573185

    No idea if this is true, if it's just the road bridge and not the rail bridge, etc, etc.

    Have they actually reopened the rail bridge yet? It was scheduled for the start of the month but I haven't seen any official announcement.
    Yes, back in May. Although there have bene reports of some nasty cracks appearing in the piers.

    Last night's attack is reported as having been done by a sea drone or cruise missiles.
    There were quite strong reservations about the design and build quality of the bridge when it opened, AIR.

    Now it's carrying heavier loads than anticipated, and has been bombed at least once probably twice, and the repairs have clearly been rushed.

    I'm not bloody surprised it's got nasty cracks in the piers.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572

    Oh, and on topic...

    The final GB score in 1997 was L43 C31. So my starting point is that if that's the final score next time, we're looking at a big Conservative defeat. The rise of the SNP will take quite a bit of the Labour majority, but there's a lot to spare from a 179 seat majority.

    The current wikiworm average is L46 C26. By comparison, ICM through 1996 (and that's the only polling with a comparable mechanism) was about L47 C31. The swingback (such as it was) was @MoonRabbit's observation that some voters realise that an anti-Conservative vote in their seat was Lib Dem.

    It doesn't have to be 1997, and the key determinant is how efficient the anti-Conservative vote can become in one go. It was already pretty efficient in 1992, but was crazy inefficient in 2019.

    But 1997 increasingly looks like the base map to use- probably as in "not as good as 1997 for Labour, but roughly as bad for the Conservatives."

    I'm making two predictions for the next GE:

    1) Labour will gain a large majority of over 100 seats.

    2) Within a year, there will be a scandal that will cause at least one Labour MP to resign. Probably one of the newer MPs.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,215

    Oh, and on topic...

    The final GB score in 1997 was L43 C31. So my starting point is that if that's the final score next time, we're looking at a big Conservative defeat. The rise of the SNP will take quite a bit of the Labour majority, but there's a lot to spare from a 179 seat majority.

    The current wikiworm average is L46 C26. By comparison, ICM through 1996 (and that's the only polling with a comparable mechanism) was about L47 C31. The swingback (such as it was) was @MoonRabbit's observation that some voters realise that an anti-Conservative vote in their seat was Lib Dem.

    It doesn't have to be 1997, and the key determinant is how efficient the anti-Conservative vote can become in one go. It was already pretty efficient in 1992, but was crazy inefficient in 2019.

    But 1997 increasingly looks like the base map to use- probably as in "not as good as 1997 for Labour, but roughly as bad for the Conservatives."

    I'm making two predictions for the next GE:

    1) Labour will gain a large majority of over 100 seats.

    2) Within a year, there will be a scandal that will cause at least one Labour MP to resign. Probably one of the newer MPs.
    Give them their due, the Conservative class of 30#9 have kept their noses pretty clean from that point of view. The bad stuff has been from established and senior figures.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    There are rumours that the Kerch Bridge has been hit:

    https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1680805295524573185

    No idea if this is true, if it's just the road bridge and not the rail bridge, etc, etc.

    There are rumours that the Kerch Bridge has been hit:

    https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1680805295524573185

    No idea if this is true, if it's just the road bridge and not the rail bridge, etc, etc.

    From the fragments of footage I've seen, it seems as though a section of deck has unspectacularly collapsed.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Morning.

    Peter K being ultra cautious. A double digit Labour lead won't be a hung parliament, especially as there's plenty of evidence of tactical anti-tory voting, on which people are FAR more savvy now than in 1997.

    The 'hated' point is a good one. It is in fact a much stronger voting motivation than 'loved'. Online reviews e.g. on trustpilot are a good example. Very few people are motivated to write positive reviews compared with those who type critical ones. The anger around the current Gov't far exceeds that of 1992-7 when, despite Black Wednesday and sleaze, the economy was in fact in good shape.

    The main point though is that Starmer's Labour are not currently experiencing the kind of love-in that Tony Blair did. TB was young and telegenic, able to schmoooze his way into people's hearts. He was the song and dance man who stepped forward to trip the light fantastic. Personally I thought he was vacuous.

    Starmer is plodding but I suspect in the GE campaign people will warm more to him. Well, in comparison with Sunak anyway. And Starmer has more substance than Blair, but that's not saying a lot.

    It's the anger though. The anger. That's the thing. The thing those living inside psephological bubbles haven't quite grasped.

  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    It's LAB's to lose!

    LAB big favourites but unlikely to get more than 340. Could be fewer!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    Oh, and on topic...

    The final GB score in 1997 was L43 C31. So my starting point is that if that's the final score next time, we're looking at a big Conservative defeat. The rise of the SNP will take quite a bit of the Labour majority, but there's a lot to spare from a 179 seat majority.

    The current wikiworm average is L46 C26. By comparison, ICM through 1996 (and that's the only polling with a comparable mechanism) was about L47 C31. The swingback (such as it was) was @MoonRabbit's observation that some voters realise that an anti-Conservative vote in their seat was Lib Dem.

    It doesn't have to be 1997, and the key determinant is how efficient the anti-Conservative vote can become in one go. It was already pretty efficient in 1992, but was crazy inefficient in 2019.

    But 1997 increasingly looks like the base map to use- probably as in "not as good as 1997 for Labour, but roughly as bad for the Conservatives."

    I'm making two predictions for the next GE:

    1) Labour will gain a large majority of over 100 seats.

    2) Within a year, there will be a scandal that will cause at least one Labour MP to resign. Probably one of the newer MPs.
    Yes to both

    The second one is inevitable from the first. There will be a lot of MPs from seats they didn’t expect to win, with token candidates who were not properly vetted.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    Nigelb said:

    One of more bizarre political stories I've come across.
    And possibly where some of Leon's political ideas originate.
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/07/16/bronze-age-pervert-masculinity-00105427

    When you’re on the internet, a way of getting internet fame by having extreme views is doing so consistently, authentically and playing a role,” Danielle Lee Tomson, a writer and researcher who wrote her Ph.D. dissertation on conservative influencers. She compared the way BAP operates to “performance art” and to kayfabe, the concept in professional wrestling of acting out stories and characters to heighten the drama of staged fights.
    So someone who dreams of being the dollar store Houston Stewart Chamberlain for the age…
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    Oh, and on topic...

    The final GB score in 1997 was L43 C31. So my starting point is that if that's the final score next time, we're looking at a big Conservative defeat. The rise of the SNP will take quite a bit of the Labour majority, but there's a lot to spare from a 179 seat majority.

    The current wikiworm average is L46 C26. By comparison, ICM through 1996 (and that's the only polling with a comparable mechanism) was about L47 C31. The swingback (such as it was) was @MoonRabbit's observation that some voters realise that an anti-Conservative vote in their seat was Lib Dem.

    It doesn't have to be 1997, and the key determinant is how efficient the anti-Conservative vote can become in one go. It was already pretty efficient in 1992, but was crazy inefficient in 2019.

    But 1997 increasingly looks like the base map to use- probably as in "not as good as 1997 for Labour, but roughly as bad for the Conservatives."

    I'm making two predictions for the next GE:

    1) Labour will gain a large majority of over 100 seats.

    2) Within a year, there will be a scandal that will cause at least one Labour MP to resign. Probably one of the newer MPs.
    A majority of over 100 requires a net gain of over 170 seats.

    That is a lot.

    The record in the postwar era* is 1997, when Blair gained 148 seats (not including boundary changes).

    Next best are David Cameron in 2010 (109 seats) and Edward Heath in 1970 (77 seats).

    If we consider Starmer to be a character similar in many ways to Heath, the urbane civil servant that people spend their lives underestimating, and remember Sunak is no Harold Wilson, a gain of around 100-110 seats seems plausible.

    But that still leaves him well short of a majority and reliant on a 'kick the fuckers out' mentality among other opposition parties to form a government.

    Is it possible he could do better? Yes.

    Is it likely? I would say not.

    *which does not include 1945.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    Oh, and on topic...

    The final GB score in 1997 was L43 C31. So my starting point is that if that's the final score next time, we're looking at a big Conservative defeat. The rise of the SNP will take quite a bit of the Labour majority, but there's a lot to spare from a 179 seat majority.

    The current wikiworm average is L46 C26. By comparison, ICM through 1996 (and that's the only polling with a comparable mechanism) was about L47 C31. The swingback (such as it was) was @MoonRabbit's observation that some voters realise that an anti-Conservative vote in their seat was Lib Dem.

    It doesn't have to be 1997, and the key determinant is how efficient the anti-Conservative vote can become in one go. It was already pretty efficient in 1992, but was crazy inefficient in 2019.

    But 1997 increasingly looks like the base map to use- probably as in "not as good as 1997 for Labour, but roughly as bad for the Conservatives."

    I'm making two predictions for the next GE:

    1) Labour will gain a large majority of over 100 seats.

    2) Within a year, there will be a scandal that will cause at least one Labour MP to resign. Probably one of the newer MPs.
    Yes to both

    The second one is inevitable from the first. There will be a lot of MPs from seats they didn’t expect to win, with token candidates who were not properly vetted.
    They're quite capable of putting up such candidates whether they make gains or not.

    O'Mara may have been a paper candidate but there was no excuse for Ian Lavery in 2010.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    Nigelb said:

    One of more bizarre political stories I've come across.
    And possibly where some of Leon's political ideas originate.
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/07/16/bronze-age-pervert-masculinity-00105427

    Leon has political ideas??
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    One of more bizarre political stories I've come across.
    And possibly where some of Leon's political ideas originate.
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/07/16/bronze-age-pervert-masculinity-00105427

    When I heard ‘Bronze Age pervert’ I naturally thought you were referring to Leon’s ideas for flint dildos.

    But I see it’s a Twitter account.
    Also written a book, which was apparently popular reading for the previous White House staff.
    Utterly bonkers, but part of the new Republican discourse.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    There are rumours that the Kerch Bridge has been hit:

    https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1680805295524573185

    No idea if this is true, if it's just the road bridge and not the rail bridge, etc, etc.

    Have they actually reopened the rail bridge yet? It was scheduled for the start of the month but I haven't seen any official announcement.
    Yes, back in May. Although there have bene reports of some nasty cracks appearing in the piers.

    Last night's attack is reported as having been done by a sea drone or cruise missiles.
    There were quite strong reservations about the design and build quality of the bridge when it opened, AIR.

    Now it's carrying heavier loads than anticipated, and has been bombed at least once probably twice, and the repairs have clearly been rushed.

    I'm not bloody surprised it's got nasty cracks in the piers.
    That doesn't seem to have harmed our House if Lords.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    There are rumours that the Kerch Bridge has been hit:

    https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1680805295524573185

    No idea if this is true, if it's just the road bridge and not the rail bridge, etc, etc.

    Have they actually reopened the rail bridge yet? It was scheduled for the start of the month but I haven't seen any official announcement.
    Yes, back in May. Although there have bene reports of some nasty cracks appearing in the piers.

    Last night's attack is reported as having been done by a sea drone or cruise missiles.
    There were quite strong reservations about the design and build quality of the bridge when it opened, AIR.

    Now it's carrying heavier loads than anticipated, and has been bombed at least once probably twice, and the repairs have clearly been rushed.

    I'm not bloody surprised it's got nasty cracks in the piers.
    That doesn't seem to have harmed our House if Lords.
    Oh, I dunno. Calls for its replacement have been getting louder the more cracks appear in it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Kerch Bridge blown up again. Looks like one of the roadways damaged, and possible some of the columns holding it up.
    https://liveuamap.com/en/2023/17-july-images-of-the-damage-at-kerch-bridge-after-explosions
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    Heathener said:

    Morning.

    Peter K being ultra cautious. A double digit Labour lead won't be a hung parliament, especially as there's plenty of evidence of tactical anti-tory voting, on which people are FAR more savvy now than in 1997.

    The 'hated' point is a good one. It is in fact a much stronger voting motivation than 'loved'. Online reviews e.g. on trustpilot are a good example. Very few people are motivated to write positive reviews compared with those who type critical ones. The anger around the current Gov't far exceeds that of 1992-7 when, despite Black Wednesday and sleaze, the economy was in fact in good shape.

    The main point though is that Starmer's Labour are not currently experiencing the kind of love-in that Tony Blair did. TB was young and telegenic, able to schmoooze his way into people's hearts. He was the song and dance man who stepped forward to trip the light fantastic. Personally I thought he was vacuous.

    Starmer is plodding but I suspect in the GE campaign people will warm more to him. Well, in comparison with Sunak anyway. And Starmer has more substance than Blair, but that's not saying a lot.

    It's the anger though. The anger. That's the thing. The thing those living inside psephological bubbles haven't quite grasped.

    You clearly don’t use Trustpilot very much. There seem to be a lot of people on there somehow motivated to leave positive reviews….
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Heckuva job, Muskie.

    Elon Musk says Twitter cashflow still negative amid 50% drop in ad revenue
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/jul/16/elon-musk-says-twitter-cash-flow-negative

    If he'd payed cash for the company, of course, it would be quite profitable by now.
    And it's fairly clear that the previous management could have run a more lean operation - without his draconian cuts.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    ydoethur said:

    Oh, and on topic...

    The final GB score in 1997 was L43 C31. So my starting point is that if that's the final score next time, we're looking at a big Conservative defeat. The rise of the SNP will take quite a bit of the Labour majority, but there's a lot to spare from a 179 seat majority.

    The current wikiworm average is L46 C26. By comparison, ICM through 1996 (and that's the only polling with a comparable mechanism) was about L47 C31. The swingback (such as it was) was @MoonRabbit's observation that some voters realise that an anti-Conservative vote in their seat was Lib Dem.

    It doesn't have to be 1997, and the key determinant is how efficient the anti-Conservative vote can become in one go. It was already pretty efficient in 1992, but was crazy inefficient in 2019.

    But 1997 increasingly looks like the base map to use- probably as in "not as good as 1997 for Labour, but roughly as bad for the Conservatives."

    I'm making two predictions for the next GE:

    1) Labour will gain a large majority of over 100 seats.

    2) Within a year, there will be a scandal that will cause at least one Labour MP to resign. Probably one of the newer MPs.
    A majority of over 100 requires a net gain of over 170 seats.

    That is a lot.

    The record in the postwar era* is 1997, when Blair gained 148 seats (not including boundary changes).

    Next best are David Cameron in 2010 (109 seats) and Edward Heath in 1970 (77 seats).

    If we consider Starmer to be a character similar in many ways to Heath, the urbane civil servant that people spend their lives underestimating, and remember Sunak is no Harold Wilson, a gain of around 100-110 seats seems plausible.

    But that still leaves him well short of a majority and reliant on a 'kick the fuckers out' mentality among other opposition parties to form a government.

    Is it possible he could do better? Yes.

    Is it likely? I would say not.

    *which does not include 1945.
    I agree it's a stretch, but I think it's perfectly possible. The current government is in utter disarray (as in 1992-7, not really the PM's fault), and I see no way that the government can regain the public's trust. They're going to get malleted. And the Scottish situation makes it more likely as well.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Nigelb said:
    That's after the clean up. The original photos of that Belgorod reg Corolla on Telegram had some woman who had been fired through the windscreen onto the bonnet. Always remember seatbelts in a war zone. The lardy lad who had been driving was still inside the car but either all his clothes had been blown off or he had chosen to drive across the Crimean Bridge naked in order to impress the soon to be dead Svetlana in the passenger seat. All very curious.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    IanB2 said:

    Heathener said:

    Morning.

    Peter K being ultra cautious. A double digit Labour lead won't be a hung parliament, especially as there's plenty of evidence of tactical anti-tory voting, on which people are FAR more savvy now than in 1997.

    The 'hated' point is a good one. It is in fact a much stronger voting motivation than 'loved'. Online reviews e.g. on trustpilot are a good example. Very few people are motivated to write positive reviews compared with those who type critical ones. The anger around the current Gov't far exceeds that of 1992-7 when, despite Black Wednesday and sleaze, the economy was in fact in good shape.

    The main point though is that Starmer's Labour are not currently experiencing the kind of love-in that Tony Blair did. TB was young and telegenic, able to schmoooze his way into people's hearts. He was the song and dance man who stepped forward to trip the light fantastic. Personally I thought he was vacuous.

    Starmer is plodding but I suspect in the GE campaign people will warm more to him. Well, in comparison with Sunak anyway. And Starmer has more substance than Blair, but that's not saying a lot.

    It's the anger though. The anger. That's the thing. The thing those living inside psephological bubbles haven't quite grasped.

    You clearly don’t use Trustpilot very much. There seem to be a lot of people on there somehow motivated to leave positive reviews….
    The adulation for New Labour was exaggerated by the adulation for New Labour in various parts of the press.

    In some ways the political campaign to win over the press was far more successful than that to win over the voters.

    43% of the vote is very good for a U.K. election win. But not a hymm sung to the universal heros.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Nigelb said:

    Heckuva job, Muskie.

    Elon Musk says Twitter cashflow still negative amid 50% drop in ad revenue
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/jul/16/elon-musk-says-twitter-cash-flow-negative

    If he'd payed cash for the company, of course, it would be quite profitable by now.
    And it's fairly clear that the previous management could have run a more lean operation - without his draconian cuts.

    The thing is, ye olde Twitter faced several issues. There were demands for more moderation, and that requires more people to either/or/and moderate or write auto-moderation bots, and they wanted to expand what Twitter could offer.

    Musky Baby wants to expand what Twitter does into some form of massive all-Internet behemoth, doesn't give a damn about moderation, and thinks he can do it on zero staff.

    He cannot.

    But the main problem is that he simply does not understand the advertising world; a world he has often lambasted and ridiculed in the past.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    ydoethur said:

    Oh, and on topic...

    The final GB score in 1997 was L43 C31. So my starting point is that if that's the final score next time, we're looking at a big Conservative defeat. The rise of the SNP will take quite a bit of the Labour majority, but there's a lot to spare from a 179 seat majority.

    The current wikiworm average is L46 C26. By comparison, ICM through 1996 (and that's the only polling with a comparable mechanism) was about L47 C31. The swingback (such as it was) was @MoonRabbit's observation that some voters realise that an anti-Conservative vote in their seat was Lib Dem.

    It doesn't have to be 1997, and the key determinant is how efficient the anti-Conservative vote can become in one go. It was already pretty efficient in 1992, but was crazy inefficient in 2019.

    But 1997 increasingly looks like the base map to use- probably as in "not as good as 1997 for Labour, but roughly as bad for the Conservatives."

    I'm making two predictions for the next GE:

    1) Labour will gain a large majority of over 100 seats.

    2) Within a year, there will be a scandal that will cause at least one Labour MP to resign. Probably one of the newer MPs.
    A majority of over 100 requires a net gain of over 170 seats.

    That is a lot.

    The record in the postwar era* is 1997, when Blair gained 148 seats (not including boundary changes).

    Next best are David Cameron in 2010 (109 seats) and Edward Heath in 1970 (77 seats).

    If we consider Starmer to be a character similar in many ways to Heath, the urbane civil servant that people spend their lives underestimating, and remember Sunak is no Harold Wilson, a gain of around 100-110 seats seems plausible.

    But that still leaves him well short of a majority and reliant on a 'kick the fuckers out' mentality among other opposition parties to form a government.

    Is it possible he could do better? Yes.

    Is it likely? I would say not.

    *which does not include 1945.
    Is the necessary number of seat gains a particularly meaningful comparator, though ?
    One could argue that the current Conservative total is uniquely inflated by the circumstances of the 2019 election.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    ydoethur said:

    Oh, and on topic...

    The final GB score in 1997 was L43 C31. So my starting point is that if that's the final score next time, we're looking at a big Conservative defeat. The rise of the SNP will take quite a bit of the Labour majority, but there's a lot to spare from a 179 seat majority.

    The current wikiworm average is L46 C26. By comparison, ICM through 1996 (and that's the only polling with a comparable mechanism) was about L47 C31. The swingback (such as it was) was @MoonRabbit's observation that some voters realise that an anti-Conservative vote in their seat was Lib Dem.

    It doesn't have to be 1997, and the key determinant is how efficient the anti-Conservative vote can become in one go. It was already pretty efficient in 1992, but was crazy inefficient in 2019.

    But 1997 increasingly looks like the base map to use- probably as in "not as good as 1997 for Labour, but roughly as bad for the Conservatives."

    I'm making two predictions for the next GE:

    1) Labour will gain a large majority of over 100 seats.

    2) Within a year, there will be a scandal that will cause at least one Labour MP to resign. Probably one of the newer MPs.
    A majority of over 100 requires a net gain of over 170 seats.

    That is a lot.

    The record in the postwar era* is 1997, when Blair gained 148 seats (not including boundary changes).

    Next best are David Cameron in 2010 (109 seats) and Edward Heath in 1970 (77 seats).

    If we consider Starmer to be a character similar in many ways to Heath, the urbane civil servant that people spend their lives underestimating, and remember Sunak is no Harold Wilson, a gain of around 100-110 seats seems plausible.

    But that still leaves him well short of a majority and reliant on a 'kick the fuckers out' mentality among other opposition parties to form a government.

    Is it possible he could do better? Yes.

    Is it likely? I would say not.

    *which does not include 1945.
    I agree it's a stretch, but I think it's perfectly possible. The current government is in utter disarray (as in 1992-7, not really the PM's fault), and I see no way that the government can regain the public's trust. They're going to get malleted. And the Scottish situation makes it more likely as well.
    I'd say it's a 50-1 shot at least.

    And I don't think those kind of shots come in very often.

    At least, it's not as though anyone ever talks about them on here these days although I think one of them did come up once and may have been mentioned just a couple of times.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    Oh, and on topic...

    The final GB score in 1997 was L43 C31. So my starting point is that if that's the final score next time, we're looking at a big Conservative defeat. The rise of the SNP will take quite a bit of the Labour majority, but there's a lot to spare from a 179 seat majority.

    The current wikiworm average is L46 C26. By comparison, ICM through 1996 (and that's the only polling with a comparable mechanism) was about L47 C31. The swingback (such as it was) was @MoonRabbit's observation that some voters realise that an anti-Conservative vote in their seat was Lib Dem.

    It doesn't have to be 1997, and the key determinant is how efficient the anti-Conservative vote can become in one go. It was already pretty efficient in 1992, but was crazy inefficient in 2019.

    But 1997 increasingly looks like the base map to use- probably as in "not as good as 1997 for Labour, but roughly as bad for the Conservatives."

    I'm making two predictions for the next GE:

    1) Labour will gain a large majority of over 100 seats.

    2) Within a year, there will be a scandal that will cause at least one Labour MP to resign. Probably one of the newer MPs.
    Yes to both

    The second one is inevitable from the first. There will be a lot of MPs from seats they didn’t expect to win, with token candidates who were not properly vetted.
    The failure of the major parties to vet MP candidates properly, is one of the mysteries of this age. It really shouldn’t be difficult.

    I guess there isn’t enough shame, in the eyes of either the electorate or the party machines, when a Jared O’Mara gets through and totally embarrasses himself, to justify the cost of half a dozen staffers doing the work.

    Something totally unrelated - in 2024, many 35-year-olds will have had an iPhone since they were 18.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Nigelb said:

    Heckuva job, Muskie.

    Elon Musk says Twitter cashflow still negative amid 50% drop in ad revenue
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/jul/16/elon-musk-says-twitter-cash-flow-negative

    If he'd payed cash for the company, of course, it would be quite profitable by now.
    And it's fairly clear that the previous management could have run a more lean operation - without his draconian cuts.

    Which is why they’re introducing more paid subscriptions, have introduced payments out to popular creators, to encourage more of them over from an increasingly censorious YouTube, and have hired an advertising industry heavyweight as the CEO.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,900
    In every election it isn't just about what one party does - you have to factor in the others too. It's an almost universally accepted reality that the current government are utterly despised. Hate - revulsion even - is a huge motivation to not just vote, but to vote smartly. So there will be an awful lot of factors pushing people into voting booths to punish the Tory.

    On the other side of the equation we have Serkeir, who currently seems to be doing everything possible to reduce the size of the majority he can win.

    Yes we know the economy is broken and services are in pieces and spivs have carried off all the cash. There isn't a simple solution. But you have to offer some hope - "we're not bastards like they are" isn't enough.

    Even when you have little money you can offer vision. Shagger was great at this - visions of an airport or a garden bridge or 40 new hospitals. All lies, but pretty ones. Labour need to talk more about the kind of country they want to build, pin the mess and lack of cash on the Tories now and then endlessly repeat it. A "there's no money left" play for the 20s. And then do the social and societal reform stuff that costs little cash.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    edited July 2023
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Oh, and on topic...

    The final GB score in 1997 was L43 C31. So my starting point is that if that's the final score next time, we're looking at a big Conservative defeat. The rise of the SNP will take quite a bit of the Labour majority, but there's a lot to spare from a 179 seat majority.

    The current wikiworm average is L46 C26. By comparison, ICM through 1996 (and that's the only polling with a comparable mechanism) was about L47 C31. The swingback (such as it was) was @MoonRabbit's observation that some voters realise that an anti-Conservative vote in their seat was Lib Dem.

    It doesn't have to be 1997, and the key determinant is how efficient the anti-Conservative vote can become in one go. It was already pretty efficient in 1992, but was crazy inefficient in 2019.

    But 1997 increasingly looks like the base map to use- probably as in "not as good as 1997 for Labour, but roughly as bad for the Conservatives."

    I'm making two predictions for the next GE:

    1) Labour will gain a large majority of over 100 seats.

    2) Within a year, there will be a scandal that will cause at least one Labour MP to resign. Probably one of the newer MPs.
    A majority of over 100 requires a net gain of over 170 seats.

    That is a lot.

    The record in the postwar era* is 1997, when Blair gained 148 seats (not including boundary changes).

    Next best are David Cameron in 2010 (109 seats) and Edward Heath in 1970 (77 seats).

    If we consider Starmer to be a character similar in many ways to Heath, the urbane civil servant that people spend their lives underestimating, and remember Sunak is no Harold Wilson, a gain of around 100-110 seats seems plausible.

    But that still leaves him well short of a majority and reliant on a 'kick the fuckers out' mentality among other opposition parties to form a government.

    Is it possible he could do better? Yes.

    Is it likely? I would say not.

    *which does not include 1945.
    Is the necessary number of seat gains a particularly meaningful comparator, though ?
    One could argue that the current Conservative total is uniquely inflated by the circumstances of the 2019 election.

    You could, but I think you would be wrong to. The Conservative total is in line with what you would have expected from their poll ratings in 2016-17 for a 2020-22 election. The outlier with unique circumstances really was 2017.

    There is an assumption that red wall voters expressing frustration with the Tories will automatically revert to mean and vote Labour. I think this a reckless assumption. They had been drifting away for years for a variety of reasons and Starmer isn't a horny handed son of toil to win them back. Brexit was as much a symptom as a cause of their disillusionment.

    Similarly, Blue Wall voters flirting with the Oranges may change their minds when actually voting.

    Put it this way, what I'm seeing for Labour is an uphill struggle to get even a bare majority. Remember, a 1997 level swing gives them a majority of one. And that presupposes a UNS which hasn't worked in fifty years, if it ever did.

    It should be noted that Starmer is clearly fully alive to the scale of his challenge. He is showing no sign of complacency or willingness to compromise with the nutters in his party in the way May did.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,633
    edited July 2023
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Oh, and on topic...

    The final GB score in 1997 was L43 C31. So my starting point is that if that's the final score next time, we're looking at a big Conservative defeat. The rise of the SNP will take quite a bit of the Labour majority, but there's a lot to spare from a 179 seat majority.

    The current wikiworm average is L46 C26. By comparison, ICM through 1996 (and that's the only polling with a comparable mechanism) was about L47 C31. The swingback (such as it was) was @MoonRabbit's observation that some voters realise that an anti-Conservative vote in their seat was Lib Dem.

    It doesn't have to be 1997, and the key determinant is how efficient the anti-Conservative vote can become in one go. It was already pretty efficient in 1992, but was crazy inefficient in 2019.

    But 1997 increasingly looks like the base map to use- probably as in "not as good as 1997 for Labour, but roughly as bad for the Conservatives."

    I'm making two predictions for the next GE:

    1) Labour will gain a large majority of over 100 seats.

    2) Within a year, there will be a scandal that will cause at least one Labour MP to resign. Probably one of the newer MPs.
    A majority of over 100 requires a net gain of over 170 seats.

    That is a lot.

    The record in the postwar era* is 1997, when Blair gained 148 seats (not including boundary changes).

    Next best are David Cameron in 2010 (109 seats) and Edward Heath in 1970 (77 seats).

    If we consider Starmer to be a character similar in many ways to Heath, the urbane civil servant that people spend their lives underestimating, and remember Sunak is no Harold Wilson, a gain of around 100-110 seats seems plausible.

    But that still leaves him well short of a majority and reliant on a 'kick the fuckers out' mentality among other opposition parties to form a government.

    Is it possible he could do better? Yes.

    Is it likely? I would say not.

    *which does not include 1945.
    Is the necessary number of seat gains a particularly meaningful comparator, though ?
    One could argue that the current Conservative total is uniquely inflated by the circumstances of the 2019 election.

    Yes, I think @Heathener is right when considering 2017 rather than 2019 the baseline.

    In 1997 there was real enthusiasm for Blair and New Labour. That is certainly not the case for Starmerism, which is a dish of pretty thin gruel. On the other hand Sunak does not have either the appeal of Major nor a functioning economy and public services.

    It looks a pretty low turnout GE to me.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    edited July 2023
    ydoethur said:

    Oh, and on topic...

    The final GB score in 1997 was L43 C31. So my starting point is that if that's the final score next time, we're looking at a big Conservative defeat. The rise of the SNP will take quite a bit of the Labour majority, but there's a lot to spare from a 179 seat majority.

    The current wikiworm average is L46 C26. By comparison, ICM through 1996 (and that's the only polling with a comparable mechanism) was about L47 C31. The swingback (such as it was) was @MoonRabbit's observation that some voters realise that an anti-Conservative vote in their seat was Lib Dem.

    It doesn't have to be 1997, and the key determinant is how efficient the anti-Conservative vote can become in one go. It was already pretty efficient in 1992, but was crazy inefficient in 2019.

    But 1997 increasingly looks like the base map to use- probably as in "not as good as 1997 for Labour, but roughly as bad for the Conservatives."

    I'm making two predictions for the next GE:

    1) Labour will gain a large majority of over 100 seats.

    2) Within a year, there will be a scandal that will cause at least one Labour MP to resign. Probably one of the newer MPs.
    A majority of over 100 requires a net gain of over 170 seats.

    That is a lot.

    The record in the postwar era* is 1997, when Blair gained 148 seats (not including boundary changes).

    Next best are David Cameron in 2010 (109 seats) and Edward Heath in 1970 (77 seats).

    If we consider Starmer to be a character similar in many ways to Heath, the urbane civil servant that people spend their lives underestimating, and remember Sunak is no Harold Wilson, a gain of around 100-110 seats seems plausible.

    But that still leaves him well short of a majority and reliant on a 'kick the fuckers out' mentality among other opposition parties to form a government.

    Is it possible he could do better? Yes.

    Is it likely? I would say not.

    *which does not include 1945.
    Yes, it’s a long way from where he is to a majority, more seats than Cameron swung in 2010.

    I think a Heath-sized swing Con>Lab is plausible, plus whatever happens in Scotland.

    NOM is probably the value bet at this stage, with likely more than a year to go.

    Agree with @Foxy above, that turnout is likely to be low, and that each side needs to get their votes out on the day - which is why it won’t be in winter and definitely not in January.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,630
    On topic, what a brilliant thread header, it is why I read PB.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Sandpit said:

    hired an advertising industry heavyweight as the CEO.

    And apparently locked her in a room

    Trussk is still the face of the company and its increasingly annoying actions.

    Having killed all the 3rd party apps they have now killed Tweetdeck. Good news for those who don't like Tweets posted here...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,630
    If we fired every past and current Met officer into the heart of the sun would we really miss them?

    The Metropolitan Police has agreed an unprecedented £2 million settlement after admitting that the case of an unsolved murder 35 years ago was mired in corruption and incompetence.

    The family of Daniel Morgan, a private investigator who was found with an axe embedded in his head in a southeast London pub car park in 1987, will receive one of the biggest payouts in British policing history.

    Sir Mark Rowley, the Met commissioner who has promised to clean up the force after a series of scandals, is expected to make a public apology this week for “corruption, incompetence and defensiveness” in its response to the murder.

    An independent panel concluded in 2021 that the Met was institutionally corrupt and had repeatedly covered up its failings in the Morgan case to protect its reputation. The panel, led by Baroness O’Loan, said this meant it was unlikely anyone would be brought to justice.

    The murder is the most investigated case in British history, with five police inquiries costing £50 million. The Met has admitted that corrupt officers shielded suspects and that later investigations did not adequately chase down leads or examine corruption claims.

    The financial settlement brings to an end a long struggle by Morgan’s family. Five remaining relatives, including his brother, Alastair, started a civil claim that alleged misfeasance in public office and breaches of the Human Rights Act.

    An official source confirmed to The Times the size of the payout, which also covers the family’s legal fees. It means the force has avoided lengthy civil proceedings.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/met-chief-to-admit-corruption-in-handling-of-daniel-morgan-murder-0mtqt036f
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    On topic, what a brilliant thread header, it is why I read PB.

    It’s 14 words, and two Tweets copied and pasted. A monkey could do that. ;)
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496

    Oh, and on topic...

    The final GB score in 1997 was L43 C31. So my starting point is that if that's the final score next time, we're looking at a big Conservative defeat. The rise of the SNP will take quite a bit of the Labour majority, but there's a lot to spare from a 179 seat majority.

    The current wikiworm average is L46 C26. By comparison, ICM through 1996 (and that's the only polling with a comparable mechanism) was about L47 C31. The swingback (such as it was) was @MoonRabbit's observation that some voters realise that an anti-Conservative vote in their seat was Lib Dem.

    It doesn't have to be 1997, and the key determinant is how efficient the anti-Conservative vote can become in one go. It was already pretty efficient in 1992, but was crazy inefficient in 2019.

    But 1997 increasingly looks like the base map to use- probably as in "not as good as 1997 for Labour, but roughly as bad for the Conservatives."

    I agree that the 1997 % for Lab and Con is a decent starting point. The outcome in GE 2024 is likely to be within 3 % points either way, so Lab 40-46; Con 28-34. This, I think, gives a higher chance of NOM than is currently indicated in the markets (which is about 25% chance). Current value is in backing NOM.

    BTW, Labour is making a couple of errors at the moment; including keeping the 2 child cap and opposing Tory limits on sub-optimal degrees.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    If current polling is to believed, the current Tory ceiling is around 30% and the current Labour ceiling is around 50% - that to me suggests Labour will be in government no matter what.

    I guess in my mind is how obvious a Tory loss looks. If Tory destruction seems clear, I wonder what effect that will have on squeeze messaging. If you live in a seat that could potentially go LD or Green, for example, and you're a left of centre voter who looks at SKS and sighs, I can see a few weird outcomes where overperformance happens.

    I also don't really get how SKS makes the base / left leaning voter excited. Like, Sunak just offered a higher wage increase that Labour said they would allow. If Labour keep that kind of line then a large number of voters / unions could just decide to publicly tell him to fuck off. It's a conversation I've often had with people who want the Tories out, but don't see any respite from the Labour party - what is the point of voting out Tories if you'll get similar or even potentially worse outcomes with Labour anyway?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    If we fired every past and current Met officer into the heart of the sun would we really miss them?

    The Metropolitan Police has agreed an unprecedented £2 million settlement after admitting that the case of an unsolved murder 35 years ago was mired in corruption and incompetence.

    The family of Daniel Morgan, a private investigator who was found with an axe embedded in his head in a southeast London pub car park in 1987, will receive one of the biggest payouts in British policing history.

    Sir Mark Rowley, the Met commissioner who has promised to clean up the force after a series of scandals, is expected to make a public apology this week for “corruption, incompetence and defensiveness” in its response to the murder.

    An independent panel concluded in 2021 that the Met was institutionally corrupt and had repeatedly covered up its failings in the Morgan case to protect its reputation. The panel, led by Baroness O’Loan, said this meant it was unlikely anyone would be brought to justice.

    The murder is the most investigated case in British history, with five police inquiries costing £50 million. The Met has admitted that corrupt officers shielded suspects and that later investigations did not adequately chase down leads or examine corruption claims.

    The financial settlement brings to an end a long struggle by Morgan’s family. Five remaining relatives, including his brother, Alastair, started a civil claim that alleged misfeasance in public office and breaches of the Human Rights Act.

    An official source confirmed to The Times the size of the payout, which also covers the family’s legal fees. It means the force has avoided lengthy civil proceedings.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/met-chief-to-admit-corruption-in-handling-of-daniel-morgan-murder-0mtqt036f

    No.

    Because they are so toxic if you fired them into the Sun they would trigger a supernova and take out the rest of us as well.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,035
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Oh, and on topic...

    The final GB score in 1997 was L43 C31. So my starting point is that if that's the final score next time, we're looking at a big Conservative defeat. The rise of the SNP will take quite a bit of the Labour majority, but there's a lot to spare from a 179 seat majority.

    The current wikiworm average is L46 C26. By comparison, ICM through 1996 (and that's the only polling with a comparable mechanism) was about L47 C31. The swingback (such as it was) was @MoonRabbit's observation that some voters realise that an anti-Conservative vote in their seat was Lib Dem.

    It doesn't have to be 1997, and the key determinant is how efficient the anti-Conservative vote can become in one go. It was already pretty efficient in 1992, but was crazy inefficient in 2019.

    But 1997 increasingly looks like the base map to use- probably as in "not as good as 1997 for Labour, but roughly as bad for the Conservatives."

    I'm making two predictions for the next GE:

    1) Labour will gain a large majority of over 100 seats.

    2) Within a year, there will be a scandal that will cause at least one Labour MP to resign. Probably one of the newer MPs.
    A majority of over 100 requires a net gain of over 170 seats.

    That is a lot.

    The record in the postwar era* is 1997, when Blair gained 148 seats (not including boundary changes).

    Next best are David Cameron in 2010 (109 seats) and Edward Heath in 1970 (77 seats).

    If we consider Starmer to be a character similar in many ways to Heath, the urbane civil servant that people spend their lives underestimating, and remember Sunak is no Harold Wilson, a gain of around 100-110 seats seems plausible.

    But that still leaves him well short of a majority and reliant on a 'kick the fuckers out' mentality among other opposition parties to form a government.

    Is it possible he could do better? Yes.

    Is it likely? I would say not.

    *which does not include 1945.
    Is the necessary number of seat gains a particularly meaningful comparator, though ?
    One could argue that the current Conservative total is uniquely inflated by the circumstances of the 2019 election.

    I don't think it is meaningful at all - there's some evidence there's a tiny advantage in retaining a seat against national vote patterns if a party holds it, but it's very small here, unlike America, where incumbents usually win because of their huge fundraising advantage (15x in the Senate and 10x in the House).

    https://www.opensecrets.org/elections-overview/incumbent-advantage

    Here, if the tide is strong enough, incumbent MPs will be swept away.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    U.K. formally joins CPTPP to little fanfare and low expectations
    Malaysia stands to gain from free palm oil exports but few other benefits seen
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Trade/U.K.-formally-joins-CPTPP-to-little-fanfare-and-low-expectations
    ..."The impact appears mainly cosmetic, for the U.K. to show it made a trade deal after Brexit," said Chris Devonshire-Ellis, chairman of Dezan Shira & Associates, an advisory firm that works with investors across Asia. "No one in Asia is taking the pact very seriously."..

    ..."We are using our status as an independent trading nation to join an exciting, growing, forward-looking trade bloc, which will help grow the U.K. economy and build on the hundreds of thousands of jobs CPTPP-owned businesses already support up and down the country," according to a statement released by the U.K. Department for Business and Trade, citing Trade Secretary Kemi Badenoch, who backed the U.K. to leave the EU.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    edited July 2023
    Sandpit said:

    On topic, what a brilliant thread header, it is why I read PB.

    It’s 14 words, and two Tweets copied and pasted. A monkey could do that. ;)
    Sssshhhh!

    We don't want him going back to his idea of a header on cash.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,348
    That there was swingback, even for Major's government, is clear.

    The Labour lead was 47/25, in the local elections of May 1995, 43/28 in 1996, 43/31 on polling day. As Stodge said, the Conservatives recovery in local government, began on that day, when they regained several county councils.

    The same was true of Brown's government.

    The Conservative lead was 44/24 in May 2008, 39/21, in May 2009, 36/29 on polling day.

    You see the same thing with Wilson's, and Callaghan's governments.

    In the end, there are always people who decide to stick with the devil they know.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    If we fired every past and current Met officer into the heart of the sun would we really miss them?

    The Metropolitan Police has agreed an unprecedented £2 million settlement after admitting that the case of an unsolved murder 35 years ago was mired in corruption and incompetence.

    The family of Daniel Morgan, a private investigator who was found with an axe embedded in his head in a southeast London pub car park in 1987, will receive one of the biggest payouts in British policing history.

    Sir Mark Rowley, the Met commissioner who has promised to clean up the force after a series of scandals, is expected to make a public apology this week for “corruption, incompetence and defensiveness” in its response to the murder.

    An independent panel concluded in 2021 that the Met was institutionally corrupt and had repeatedly covered up its failings in the Morgan case to protect its reputation. The panel, led by Baroness O’Loan, said this meant it was unlikely anyone would be brought to justice.

    The murder is the most investigated case in British history, with five police inquiries costing £50 million. The Met has admitted that corrupt officers shielded suspects and that later investigations did not adequately chase down leads or examine corruption claims.

    The financial settlement brings to an end a long struggle by Morgan’s family. Five remaining relatives, including his brother, Alastair, started a civil claim that alleged misfeasance in public office and breaches of the Human Rights Act.

    An official source confirmed to The Times the size of the payout, which also covers the family’s legal fees. It means the force has avoided lengthy civil proceedings.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/met-chief-to-admit-corruption-in-handling-of-daniel-morgan-murder-0mtqt036f

    No

    The Sun is reserved for the enmasse landing of the DfE

    The House of Parliament are going to Pluto

    Hmmm

    The Met… the Met…. Surface of Neptune is available?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    hired an advertising industry heavyweight as the CEO.

    And apparently locked her in a room

    Trussk is still the face of the company and its increasingly annoying actions.

    Having killed all the 3rd party apps they have now killed Tweetdeck. Good news for those who don't like Tweets posted here...
    Because a business is unsustainable when millions of industrial-scale users are paying nothing for it.

    They’ve never made a profit, and were losing $128m a quarter before the takeover. There wasn’t a sustainable business there. https://investor.twitterinc.com/files/doc_financials/2022/q1/Final-Q1’22-earnings-release.pdf

    Yes, Musk and friends way overpaid, and are probably going to have to put a load more cash in at some point.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,660
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    On topic, what a brilliant thread header, it is why I read PB.

    It’s 14 words, and two Tweets copied and pasted. A monkey could do that. ;)
    Sssshhhh!

    We don't want him going back to his idea of a header on cash.
    BILL?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,215
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Oh, and on topic...

    The final GB score in 1997 was L43 C31. So my starting point is that if that's the final score next time, we're looking at a big Conservative defeat. The rise of the SNP will take quite a bit of the Labour majority, but there's a lot to spare from a 179 seat majority.

    The current wikiworm average is L46 C26. By comparison, ICM through 1996 (and that's the only polling with a comparable mechanism) was about L47 C31. The swingback (such as it was) was @MoonRabbit's observation that some voters realise that an anti-Conservative vote in their seat was Lib Dem.

    It doesn't have to be 1997, and the key determinant is how efficient the anti-Conservative vote can become in one go. It was already pretty efficient in 1992, but was crazy inefficient in 2019.

    But 1997 increasingly looks like the base map to use- probably as in "not as good as 1997 for Labour, but roughly as bad for the Conservatives."

    I'm making two predictions for the next GE:

    1) Labour will gain a large majority of over 100 seats.

    2) Within a year, there will be a scandal that will cause at least one Labour MP to resign. Probably one of the newer MPs.
    A majority of over 100 requires a net gain of over 170 seats.

    That is a lot.

    The record in the postwar era* is 1997, when Blair gained 148 seats (not including boundary changes).

    Next best are David Cameron in 2010 (109 seats) and Edward Heath in 1970 (77 seats).

    If we consider Starmer to be a character similar in many ways to Heath, the urbane civil servant that people spend their lives underestimating, and remember Sunak is no Harold Wilson, a gain of around 100-110 seats seems plausible.

    But that still leaves him well short of a majority and reliant on a 'kick the fuckers out' mentality among other opposition parties to form a government.

    Is it possible he could do better? Yes.

    Is it likely? I would say not.

    *which does not include 1945.
    I agree it's a stretch, but I think it's perfectly possible. The current government is in utter disarray (as in 1992-7, not really the PM's fault), and I see no way that the government can regain the public's trust. They're going to get malleted. And the Scottish situation makes it more likely as well.
    I'd say it's a 50-1 shot at least.

    And I don't think those kind of shots come in very often.

    At least, it's not as though anyone ever talks about them on here these days although I think one of them did come up once and may have been mentioned just a couple of times.
    Two reasons why it wouldn't be crazy for it to be different this time...

    First is that there's quite a lot of low-hanging fruit (some of them pro-hanging fruitcakes). Just not having Lib and Lab shooting at each other moves quite a few seats, maybe enough to get back to about 2015. (Boris didn't put on that many more votes or share compared to his predecessors.)

    Also, political campaigning has changed in a way that makes spectacular shifts in seat numbers easier. Go back to the days of Heath and parties were constrained by the number of activists and how many letterboxes they could rattle. Door to door combat was only possible in a finite number of seats and that limited the number of seat gains that was possible.

    Thatcher and the Saatchis broke that limit a bit by revolutionising national political advertising in the 1980s. Cummings and Vote Leave smashed it in 2016-9 by using social media. That allows you to run an entire election campaign with one computer connection, a moderate amount of money and one psychopath.

    It does seem absurd that Boring Old Starmer might be on course for a spectacular win (and even to get a majority of 1 will be pretty spectacular; it's not that long ago that a minority government that could ignore the SNP seemed like a stretch target). It will be really galling for Conservatives, and will have to make us all wonder if Blair was really all that.

    But the Conservatives are really unpopular and seem to be lacking ideas to turn that round. If they lose big, what's the alternative to a big Labour win?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,660
    Nigelb said:

    U.K. formally joins CPTPP to little fanfare and low expectations
    Malaysia stands to gain from free palm oil exports but few other benefits seen
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Trade/U.K.-formally-joins-CPTPP-to-little-fanfare-and-low-expectations
    ..."The impact appears mainly cosmetic, for the U.K. to show it made a trade deal after Brexit," said Chris Devonshire-Ellis, chairman of Dezan Shira & Associates, an advisory firm that works with investors across Asia. "No one in Asia is taking the pact very seriously."..

    ..."We are using our status as an independent trading nation to join an exciting, growing, forward-looking trade bloc, which will help grow the U.K. economy and build on the hundreds of thousands of jobs CPTPP-owned businesses already support up and down the country," according to a statement released by the U.K. Department for Business and Trade, citing Trade Secretary Kemi Badenoch, who backed the U.K. to leave the EU.

    But but Brunei 🇧🇳
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    On topic, what a brilliant thread header, it is why I read PB.

    It’s 14 words, and two Tweets copied and pasted. A monkey could do that. ;)
    Sssshhhh!

    We don't want him going back to his idea of a header on cash.
    BILL?
    TSE is a good Muslim boy. He would never get Stoned.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:
    That's after the clean up. The original photos of that Belgorod reg Corolla on Telegram had some woman who had been fired through the windscreen onto the bonnet. Always remember seatbelts in a war zone. The lardy lad who had been driving was still inside the car but either all his clothes had been blown off or he had chosen to drive across the Crimean Bridge naked in order to impress the soon to be dead Svetlana in the passenger seat. All very curious.
    Someone from 1WG told me that he had been on the Sir Galahad when it was struck. He remembers most clearly that all of his clothes were blown off. Every stitch.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    Nigelb said:

    U.K. formally joins CPTPP to little fanfare and low expectations
    Malaysia stands to gain from free palm oil exports but few other benefits seen
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Trade/U.K.-formally-joins-CPTPP-to-little-fanfare-and-low-expectations
    ..."The impact appears mainly cosmetic, for the U.K. to show it made a trade deal after Brexit," said Chris Devonshire-Ellis, chairman of Dezan Shira & Associates, an advisory firm that works with investors across Asia. "No one in Asia is taking the pact very seriously."..

    ..."We are using our status as an independent trading nation to join an exciting, growing, forward-looking trade bloc, which will help grow the U.K. economy and build on the hundreds of thousands of jobs CPTPP-owned businesses already support up and down the country," according to a statement released by the U.K. Department for Business and Trade, citing Trade Secretary Kemi Badenoch, who backed the U.K. to leave the EU.

    But but Brunei 🇧🇳
    Prince Jeffri will be happy that his fleet of Rolls-Royces, Bentleys, and Aston Martins, get a little cheaper with the dropping of tarrifs.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heckuva job, Muskie.

    Elon Musk says Twitter cashflow still negative amid 50% drop in ad revenue
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/jul/16/elon-musk-says-twitter-cash-flow-negative

    If he'd payed cash for the company, of course, it would be quite profitable by now.
    And it's fairly clear that the previous management could have run a more lean operation - without his draconian cuts.

    Which is why they’re introducing more paid subscriptions, have introduced payments out to popular creators, to encourage more of them over from an increasingly censorious YouTube, and have hired an advertising industry heavyweight as the CEO.
    "increasingly censorious YouTube"

    And here you hit an important point. YouTube are not being 'censorious' because they want to be; they are being censorious because they are afraid of regulators and regulations.

    Musky Baby thinks he can avoid all that; he cannot. Old Twitter realised that as well; and Musk's constant crying about "free speech" will not help him.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Oh, and on topic...

    The final GB score in 1997 was L43 C31. So my starting point is that if that's the final score next time, we're looking at a big Conservative defeat. The rise of the SNP will take quite a bit of the Labour majority, but there's a lot to spare from a 179 seat majority.

    The current wikiworm average is L46 C26. By comparison, ICM through 1996 (and that's the only polling with a comparable mechanism) was about L47 C31. The swingback (such as it was) was @MoonRabbit's observation that some voters realise that an anti-Conservative vote in their seat was Lib Dem.

    It doesn't have to be 1997, and the key determinant is how efficient the anti-Conservative vote can become in one go. It was already pretty efficient in 1992, but was crazy inefficient in 2019.

    But 1997 increasingly looks like the base map to use- probably as in "not as good as 1997 for Labour, but roughly as bad for the Conservatives."

    I'm making two predictions for the next GE:

    1) Labour will gain a large majority of over 100 seats.

    2) Within a year, there will be a scandal that will cause at least one Labour MP to resign. Probably one of the newer MPs.
    A majority of over 100 requires a net gain of over 170 seats.

    That is a lot.

    The record in the postwar era* is 1997, when Blair gained 148 seats (not including boundary changes).

    Next best are David Cameron in 2010 (109 seats) and Edward Heath in 1970 (77 seats).

    If we consider Starmer to be a character similar in many ways to Heath, the urbane civil servant that people spend their lives underestimating, and remember Sunak is no Harold Wilson, a gain of around 100-110 seats seems plausible.

    But that still leaves him well short of a majority and reliant on a 'kick the fuckers out' mentality among other opposition parties to form a government.

    Is it possible he could do better? Yes.

    Is it likely? I would say not.

    *which does not include 1945.
    I agree it's a stretch, but I think it's perfectly possible. The current government is in utter disarray (as in 1992-7, not really the PM's fault), and I see no way that the government can regain the public's trust. They're going to get malleted. And the Scottish situation makes it more likely as well.
    I'd say it's a 50-1 shot at least.

    And I don't think those kind of shots come in very often.

    At least, it's not as though anyone ever talks about them on here these days although I think one of them did come up once and may have been mentioned just a couple of times.
    Two reasons why it wouldn't be crazy for it to be different this time...

    First is that there's quite a lot of low-hanging fruit (some of them pro-hanging fruitcakes). Just not having Lib and Lab shooting at each other moves quite a few seats, maybe enough to get back to about 2015. (Boris didn't put on that many more votes or share compared to his predecessors.)

    Also, political campaigning has changed in a way that makes spectacular shifts in seat numbers easier. Go back to the days of Heath and parties were constrained by the number of activists and how many letterboxes they could rattle. Door to door combat was only possible in a finite number of seats and that limited the number of seat gains that was possible.

    Thatcher and the Saatchis broke that limit a bit by revolutionising national political advertising in the 1980s. Cummings and Vote Leave smashed it in 2016-9 by using social media. That allows you to run an entire election campaign with one computer connection, a moderate amount of money and one psychopath.

    It does seem absurd that Boring Old Starmer might be on course for a spectacular win (and even to get a majority of 1 will be pretty spectacular; it's not that long ago that a minority government that could ignore the SNP seemed like a stretch target). It will be really galling for Conservatives, and will have to make us all wonder if Blair was really all that.

    But the Conservatives are really unpopular and seem to be lacking ideas to turn that round. If they lose big, what's the alternative to a big Labour win?
    You talk about radical shifts being easier due to social media. I'm not sure I agree. There are multiple sources of news out there that are easy to access, a big change from the days when people read one paper, but how many people go searching for a wide range of perspectives instead of just checking out their favourite social media accounts?

    In fact, if anything I would say social media tends to ossify political attitudes as much as change them by offering a bigger echo chamber.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,660
    Nigelb said:

    U.K. formally joins CPTPP to little fanfare and low expectations
    Malaysia stands to gain from free palm oil exports but few other benefits seen
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Trade/U.K.-formally-joins-CPTPP-to-little-fanfare-and-low-expectations
    ..."The impact appears mainly cosmetic, for the U.K. to show it made a trade deal after Brexit," said Chris Devonshire-Ellis, chairman of Dezan Shira & Associates, an advisory firm that works with investors across Asia. "No one in Asia is taking the pact very seriously."..

    ..."We are using our status as an independent trading nation to join an exciting, growing, forward-looking trade bloc, which will help grow the U.K. economy and build on the hundreds of thousands of jobs CPTPP-owned businesses already support up and down the country," according to a statement released by the U.K. Department for Business and Trade, citing Trade Secretary Kemi Badenoch, who backed the U.K. to leave the EU.

    At least we are doing our bit to destroy the rainforest
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Nigelb said:

    U.K. formally joins CPTPP to little fanfare and low expectations
    Malaysia stands to gain from free palm oil exports but few other benefits seen
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Trade/U.K.-formally-joins-CPTPP-to-little-fanfare-and-low-expectations
    ..."The impact appears mainly cosmetic, for the U.K. to show it made a trade deal after Brexit," said Chris Devonshire-Ellis, chairman of Dezan Shira & Associates, an advisory firm that works with investors across Asia. "No one in Asia is taking the pact very seriously."..

    ..."We are using our status as an independent trading nation to join an exciting, growing, forward-looking trade bloc, which will help grow the U.K. economy and build on the hundreds of thousands of jobs CPTPP-owned businesses already support up and down the country," according to a statement released by the U.K. Department for Business and Trade, citing Trade Secretary Kemi Badenoch, who backed the U.K. to leave the EU.

    The most significant changes from our POV...
    ...For Britain, the CPTPP will allow tariff-free whisky exports to Malaysia, whose population is majority Muslim, within 10 years from the current 80%. Within seven years, the 30% export tariff for British cars will be eliminated...
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,660
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    U.K. formally joins CPTPP to little fanfare and low expectations
    Malaysia stands to gain from free palm oil exports but few other benefits seen
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Trade/U.K.-formally-joins-CPTPP-to-little-fanfare-and-low-expectations
    ..."The impact appears mainly cosmetic, for the U.K. to show it made a trade deal after Brexit," said Chris Devonshire-Ellis, chairman of Dezan Shira & Associates, an advisory firm that works with investors across Asia. "No one in Asia is taking the pact very seriously."..

    ..."We are using our status as an independent trading nation to join an exciting, growing, forward-looking trade bloc, which will help grow the U.K. economy and build on the hundreds of thousands of jobs CPTPP-owned businesses already support up and down the country," according to a statement released by the U.K. Department for Business and Trade, citing Trade Secretary Kemi Badenoch, who backed the U.K. to leave the EU.

    But but Brunei 🇧🇳
    Prince Jeffri will be happy that his fleet of Rolls-Royces, Bentleys, and Aston Martins, get a little cheaper with the dropping of tarrifs.
    If only they ran on palm oil he would be laughing
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    U.K. formally joins CPTPP to little fanfare and low expectations
    Malaysia stands to gain from free palm oil exports but few other benefits seen
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Trade/U.K.-formally-joins-CPTPP-to-little-fanfare-and-low-expectations
    ..."The impact appears mainly cosmetic, for the U.K. to show it made a trade deal after Brexit," said Chris Devonshire-Ellis, chairman of Dezan Shira & Associates, an advisory firm that works with investors across Asia. "No one in Asia is taking the pact very seriously."..

    ..."We are using our status as an independent trading nation to join an exciting, growing, forward-looking trade bloc, which will help grow the U.K. economy and build on the hundreds of thousands of jobs CPTPP-owned businesses already support up and down the country," according to a statement released by the U.K. Department for Business and Trade, citing Trade Secretary Kemi Badenoch, who backed the U.K. to leave the EU.

    But but Brunei 🇧🇳
    Prince Jeffri will be happy that his fleet of Rolls-Royces, Bentleys, and Aston Martins, get a little cheaper with the dropping of tarrifs.
    If only they ran on palm oil he would be laughing
    Well, a lot of them are due to longstanding contracts that began with a little palm oil.

    Does that count?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625
    Sandpit said:

    Putin is meeting with his generals, to discuss the Kerch Bridge:


    Well the elephant in the room has to sit somewhere.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    hired an advertising industry heavyweight as the CEO.

    And apparently locked her in a room

    Trussk is still the face of the company and its increasingly annoying actions.

    Having killed all the 3rd party apps they have now killed Tweetdeck. Good news for those who don't like Tweets posted here...
    Because a business is unsustainable when millions of industrial-scale users are paying nothing for it.

    They’ve never made a profit, and were losing $128m a quarter before the takeover. There wasn’t a sustainable business there. https://investor.twitterinc.com/files/doc_financials/2022/q1/Final-Q1’22-earnings-release.pdf

    Yes, Musk and friends way overpaid, and are probably going to have to put a load more cash in at some point.
    Not true: they have made a profit in the past, https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/07/tech/twitter-earnings-q4/index.html Musk is stupid.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Interesting thread reporting some of Ben Wallace's more constructive remarks.

    https://twitter.com/Barnes_Joe/status/1680494816746958850
    ...Ukrainians have been forced to dismount from their Western-supplied vehicles and wade through dense Russian anti-tank minefields on foot, Wallace said, because Kyiv's lack of 'combat engineering capabilities', often under heavy fire from Russian drones and artillery. /3

    Having adapted, Moscow's forces now lay mixed minefields, combining anti-personnel and anti-tank mines to further slow any Ukrainian advance. Russia is also learning, and adapting its forces, to deal with new, long-range weapons introduced onto the battlefield, Wallace added. /4

    Ukraine is attacking on three main axes (Bakhmut, Orikhiv-Tokmak, Velyka Novosilka), Wallace said. 'The main line of defence at some parts, the Ukrainians are only 300 metres away,' he added, 'Instead of there being lots of Russians behind those lines, there aren’t.' /5

    Wallace said Ukraine hadn't yet committed reserves from its 12 offensive brigades, the majority of which were trained and armed by Nato allies. He said Kyiv hadn't yet made a choice on what potential axes of attack to 'really pile it on' in an attempt to breach the lines. /6

    On UK-donated Storm Shadow missiles, Wallace said in one recent hit on a Russian ammunition dump, shown by 'open source', Ukraine had destroyed 2,500 tonnes of ammo. He didn't confirm where but video from Makiivka, seven miles east of Donetsk, showed a vast explosion. /7

    ...Interestingly, Wallace confirmed Kyiv had asked Britain to manufacture 'some capabilities' in the UK, without confirming what they are for security reasons. 'Ukraine has asked us to make them but you know, after this conflict, we would inevitably move them back into Ukraine.' /9

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:
    That's after the clean up. The original photos of that Belgorod reg Corolla on Telegram had some woman who had been fired through the windscreen onto the bonnet. Always remember seatbelts in a war zone. The lardy lad who had been driving was still inside the car but either all his clothes had been blown off or he had chosen to drive across the Crimean Bridge naked in order to impress the soon to be dead Svetlana in the passenger seat. All very curious.
    Someone from 1WG told me that he had been on the Sir Galahad when it was struck. He remembers most clearly that all of his clothes were blown off. Every stitch.
    I've been on the site of an industrial explosion where, although no-one was killed (*), there were some really weird effects.

    At the site of the blast, RSJ's bent almost double by blast and heat. A large storage vessel lifted up off its foundations and went up one storey, through the floor above. Yet nearby, a roll of cleaning towel was still on its trolley, in the correct place.

    (*) They should have, which was the first sussy part of it ...
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    I think Peter Kellner is right, as usual. It's about 50/50 between maj and hung parl.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,660
    On Topic I concur with PK

    Please save this prediction for GE 2024

    Lab 40%
    Con 35%

    Hung Parliament
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,633
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Oh, and on topic...

    The final GB score in 1997 was L43 C31. So my starting point is that if that's the final score next time, we're looking at a big Conservative defeat. The rise of the SNP will take quite a bit of the Labour majority, but there's a lot to spare from a 179 seat majority.

    The current wikiworm average is L46 C26. By comparison, ICM through 1996 (and that's the only polling with a comparable mechanism) was about L47 C31. The swingback (such as it was) was @MoonRabbit's observation that some voters realise that an anti-Conservative vote in their seat was Lib Dem.

    It doesn't have to be 1997, and the key determinant is how efficient the anti-Conservative vote can become in one go. It was already pretty efficient in 1992, but was crazy inefficient in 2019.

    But 1997 increasingly looks like the base map to use- probably as in "not as good as 1997 for Labour, but roughly as bad for the Conservatives."

    I'm making two predictions for the next GE:

    1) Labour will gain a large majority of over 100 seats.

    2) Within a year, there will be a scandal that will cause at least one Labour MP to resign. Probably one of the newer MPs.
    A majority of over 100 requires a net gain of over 170 seats.

    That is a lot.

    The record in the postwar era* is 1997, when Blair gained 148 seats (not including boundary changes).

    Next best are David Cameron in 2010 (109 seats) and Edward Heath in 1970 (77 seats).

    If we consider Starmer to be a character similar in many ways to Heath, the urbane civil servant that people spend their lives underestimating, and remember Sunak is no Harold Wilson, a gain of around 100-110 seats seems plausible.

    But that still leaves him well short of a majority and reliant on a 'kick the fuckers out' mentality among other opposition parties to form a government.

    Is it possible he could do better? Yes.

    Is it likely? I would say not.

    *which does not include 1945.
    I agree it's a stretch, but I think it's perfectly possible. The current government is in utter disarray (as in 1992-7, not really the PM's fault), and I see no way that the government can regain the public's trust. They're going to get malleted. And the Scottish situation makes it more likely as well.
    I'd say it's a 50-1 shot at least.

    And I don't think those kind of shots come in very often.

    At least, it's not as though anyone ever talks about them on here these days although I think one of them did come up once and may have been mentioned just a couple of times.
    Two reasons why it wouldn't be crazy for it to be different this time...

    First is that there's quite a lot of low-hanging fruit (some of them pro-hanging fruitcakes). Just not having Lib and Lab shooting at each other moves quite a few seats, maybe enough to get back to about 2015. (Boris didn't put on that many more votes or share compared to his predecessors.)

    Also, political campaigning has changed in a way that makes spectacular shifts in seat numbers easier. Go back to the days of Heath and parties were constrained by the number of activists and how many letterboxes they could rattle. Door to door combat was only possible in a finite number of seats and that limited the number of seat gains that was possible.

    Thatcher and the Saatchis broke that limit a bit by revolutionising national political advertising in the 1980s. Cummings and Vote Leave smashed it in 2016-9 by using social media. That allows you to run an entire election campaign with one computer connection, a moderate amount of money and one psychopath.

    It does seem absurd that Boring Old Starmer might be on course for a spectacular win (and even to get a majority of 1 will be pretty spectacular; it's not that long ago that a minority government that could ignore the SNP seemed like a stretch target). It will be really galling for Conservatives, and will have to make us all wonder if Blair was really all that.

    But the Conservatives are really unpopular and seem to be lacking ideas to turn that round. If they lose big, what's the alternative to a big Labour win?
    You talk about radical shifts being easier due to social media. I'm not sure I agree. There are multiple sources of news out there that are easy to access, a big change from the days when people read one paper, but how many people go searching for a wide range of perspectives instead of just checking out their favourite social media accounts?

    In fact, if anything I would say social media tends to ossify political attitudes as much as change them by offering a bigger echo chamber.
    What it does do is limit the influence of the dead tree press. Murdochs political model is as wrinkled and bent as the man himself.

    We are in the hands of homoerotic loons like Bronze Age Pervert now, and the equally nutty #ItsAScam mob.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    hired an advertising industry heavyweight as the CEO.

    And apparently locked her in a room

    Trussk is still the face of the company and its increasingly annoying actions.

    Having killed all the 3rd party apps they have now killed Tweetdeck. Good news for those who don't like Tweets posted here...
    Because a business is unsustainable when millions of industrial-scale users are paying nothing for it.

    They’ve never made a profit, and were losing $128m a quarter before the takeover. There wasn’t a sustainable business there. https://investor.twitterinc.com/files/doc_financials/2022/q1/Final-Q1’22-earnings-release.pdf

    Yes, Musk and friends way overpaid, and are probably going to have to put a load more cash in at some point.
    "Because a business is unsustainable when millions of industrial-scale users are paying nothing for it."

    I don't pay anything directly for Google and Facebook. Obviously I pay indirectly, through advertising costs, but they're free to me as an end-user. They are both profitable because they understand their customers.

    The 'customers' are not you and me, but the advertisers. Now, ask yourself how Twitter can attract advertisers to a platform that in the name of 'free speech' allows anyone to say virtually anything. Where their ads might be served alongside (say) neo-Nazi comments.

    Which is another reason YouTube et al get 'overly censorious'.

    As I've said passim, Musk simply does not understand advertising.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,660

    On Topic I concur with PK

    Please save this prediction for GE 2024

    Lab 40%
    Con 35%

    Hung Parliament

    Has anyone ever seen Andy JS and BJO in the same room
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    hired an advertising industry heavyweight as the CEO.

    And apparently locked her in a room

    Trussk is still the face of the company and its increasingly annoying actions.

    Having killed all the 3rd party apps they have now killed Tweetdeck. Good news for those who don't like Tweets posted here...
    Because a business is unsustainable when millions of industrial-scale users are paying nothing for it.

    They’ve never made a profit, and were losing $128m a quarter before the takeover. There wasn’t a sustainable business there. https://investor.twitterinc.com/files/doc_financials/2022/q1/Final-Q1’22-earnings-release.pdf

    Yes, Musk and friends way overpaid, and are probably going to have to put a load more cash in at some point.
    "Because a business is unsustainable when millions of industrial-scale users are paying nothing for it."

    I don't pay anything directly for Google and Facebook. Obviously I pay indirectly, through advertising costs, but they're free to me as an end-user. They are both profitable because they understand their customers.

    The 'customers' are not you and me, but the advertisers. Now, ask yourself how Twitter can attract advertisers to a platform that in the name of 'free speech' allows anyone to say virtually anything. Where their ads might be served alongside (say) neo-Nazi comments.

    Which is another reason YouTube et al get 'overly censorious'.

    As I've said passim, Musk simply does not understand advertising.
    He's now paying mainly right wing posters with a large following an ad revenue share.
    I'm not clear how this will help the finances.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,126
    edited July 2023
    The LE results were a clear suggestion to me that:

    a) Sunak's latest form of Tory Statism isn't popular
    b) CCHQ still don't realise this

    I'm personally looking forward to the left of the party getting smashed, so we can return to proper right of centre pro-growth Conservatism at the subsequent election.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    hired an advertising industry heavyweight as the CEO.

    And apparently locked her in a room

    Trussk is still the face of the company and its increasingly annoying actions.

    Having killed all the 3rd party apps they have now killed Tweetdeck. Good news for those who don't like Tweets posted here...
    Because a business is unsustainable when millions of industrial-scale users are paying nothing for it.

    They’ve never made a profit, and were losing $128m a quarter before the takeover. There wasn’t a sustainable business there. https://investor.twitterinc.com/files/doc_financials/2022/q1/Final-Q1’22-earnings-release.pdf

    Yes, Musk and friends way overpaid, and are probably going to have to put a load more cash in at some point.
    Not true: they have made a profit in the past, https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/07/tech/twitter-earnings-q4/index.html Musk is stupid.
    You’re right that they did once make a profit, after a decade of cumulative losses. Went back to losses though, after doubling the payroll over the pandemic for some reason. Hence the new management having a massive clearout.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829

    Morning all!
    I realise Starmer is trying to cause a little fuss as possible, but I was horrified today… and I mean, horrified ….. that he proposed to continue the two child policy.

    Oh yes, Mrs C was spitting nails yesterday about it.

    I can only guess he's terrified of the right wing media and their bleating about pampering the poor. Ditto immigrants?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    hired an advertising industry heavyweight as the CEO.

    And apparently locked her in a room

    Trussk is still the face of the company and its increasingly annoying actions.

    Having killed all the 3rd party apps they have now killed Tweetdeck. Good news for those who don't like Tweets posted here...
    Because a business is unsustainable when millions of industrial-scale users are paying nothing for it.

    They’ve never made a profit, and were losing $128m a quarter before the takeover. There wasn’t a sustainable business there. https://investor.twitterinc.com/files/doc_financials/2022/q1/Final-Q1’22-earnings-release.pdf

    Yes, Musk and friends way overpaid, and are probably going to have to put a load more cash in at some point.
    Not true: they have made a profit in the past, https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/07/tech/twitter-earnings-q4/index.html Musk is stupid.
    You’re right that they did once make a profit, after a decade of cumulative losses. Went back to losses though, after doubling the payroll over the pandemic for some reason. Hence the new management having a massive clearout.
    They were closer to profit before Musk took over than now.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    On Topic I concur with PK

    Please save this prediction for GE 2024

    Lab 40%
    Con 35%

    Hung Parliament

    Prediction for GE

    Lab 44%
    Con 29%
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Sandpit said:

    Because a business is unsustainable when millions of industrial-scale users are paying nothing for it.

    As others have noted, Twitter's customers are the advertisers, and the millions of 'users' are the product.

    Musk has pissed off the former while drastically reducing the latter.

    Genius...
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496

    On Topic I concur with PK

    Please save this prediction for GE 2024

    Lab 40%
    Con 35%

    Hung Parliament

    I should think quite a lot of people from a range of political positions would welcome a Lab/LD coalition as by far the closest thing available to a modest, loyal and decent government with moderate progressive convictions for whom we could could have some respect.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    hired an advertising industry heavyweight as the CEO.

    And apparently locked her in a room

    Trussk is still the face of the company and its increasingly annoying actions.

    Having killed all the 3rd party apps they have now killed Tweetdeck. Good news for those who don't like Tweets posted here...
    Because a business is unsustainable when millions of industrial-scale users are paying nothing for it.

    They’ve never made a profit, and were losing $128m a quarter before the takeover. There wasn’t a sustainable business there. https://investor.twitterinc.com/files/doc_financials/2022/q1/Final-Q1’22-earnings-release.pdf

    Yes, Musk and friends way overpaid, and are probably going to have to put a load more cash in at some point.
    "Because a business is unsustainable when millions of industrial-scale users are paying nothing for it."

    I don't pay anything directly for Google and Facebook. Obviously I pay indirectly, through advertising costs, but they're free to me as an end-user. They are both profitable because they understand their customers.

    The 'customers' are not you and me, but the advertisers. Now, ask yourself how Twitter can attract advertisers to a platform that in the name of 'free speech' allows anyone to say virtually anything. Where their ads might be served alongside (say) neo-Nazi comments.

    Which is another reason YouTube et al get 'overly censorious'.

    As I've said passim, Musk simply does not understand advertising.
    The problem was that the industrial users were on Tweetdeck, not on Twitter and not seeing any adverts. Hence now restricting that service to those paying Twitter directly.

    I know Musk doesn’t understand advertising, which is why he hired an advertising exec and is getting revenue directly from users.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    U.K. formally joins CPTPP to little fanfare and low expectations
    Malaysia stands to gain from free palm oil exports but few other benefits seen
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Trade/U.K.-formally-joins-CPTPP-to-little-fanfare-and-low-expectations
    ..."The impact appears mainly cosmetic, for the U.K. to show it made a trade deal after Brexit," said Chris Devonshire-Ellis, chairman of Dezan Shira & Associates, an advisory firm that works with investors across Asia. "No one in Asia is taking the pact very seriously."..

    ..."We are using our status as an independent trading nation to join an exciting, growing, forward-looking trade bloc, which will help grow the U.K. economy and build on the hundreds of thousands of jobs CPTPP-owned businesses already support up and down the country," according to a statement released by the U.K. Department for Business and Trade, citing Trade Secretary Kemi Badenoch, who backed the U.K. to leave the EU.

    But but Brunei 🇧🇳
    Prince Jeffri will be happy that his fleet of Rolls-Royces, Bentleys, and Aston Martins, get a little cheaper with the dropping of tarrifs.
    He's been selling the collection off significantly over recent years. Mainly through "Mr Ferrari" Michael Sheehan. I wouldn't mind his 1 of 1 factory black (rather than a repaint) 288GTO.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,215
    Mortimer said:

    The LE results were a clear suggestion to me that:

    a) Sunak's latest form of Tory Statism isn't popular
    b) CCHQ still don't realise this

    I'm personally looking forward to the left of the party getting smashed, so we can return to proper right of centre pro-growth Conservatism at the subsequent election.

    That Sunak and Hunt are seen by Conservatives as insufficiently right wing is why Lady Starmer can go to the home furnishing department of John Lewis with some confidence, and should probably look to get something that's going to last a decent length of time.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Don't trust contact numbers from Google maps. A fair few seem to have been altered by scammers:
    https://twitter.com/Shmuli/status/1680669938468499458
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    edited July 2023
    Andy_JS said:
    ...
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    I am beginning to think that 2017 might be an instructive precedent. A nebbish-on-nebbish fight with no marked appetite for what either party offers, with the result that you can ignore the opinion polls entirely. It all comes down to an unforced error in the campaign itself.

    No bet from me.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    U.K. formally joins CPTPP to little fanfare and low expectations
    Malaysia stands to gain from free palm oil exports but few other benefits seen
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Trade/U.K.-formally-joins-CPTPP-to-little-fanfare-and-low-expectations
    ..."The impact appears mainly cosmetic, for the U.K. to show it made a trade deal after Brexit," said Chris Devonshire-Ellis, chairman of Dezan Shira & Associates, an advisory firm that works with investors across Asia. "No one in Asia is taking the pact very seriously."..

    ..."We are using our status as an independent trading nation to join an exciting, growing, forward-looking trade bloc, which will help grow the U.K. economy and build on the hundreds of thousands of jobs CPTPP-owned businesses already support up and down the country," according to a statement released by the U.K. Department for Business and Trade, citing Trade Secretary Kemi Badenoch, who backed the U.K. to leave the EU.

    But but Brunei 🇧🇳
    Prince Jeffri will be happy that his fleet of Rolls-Royces, Bentleys, and Aston Martins, get a little cheaper with the dropping of tarrifs.
    He's been selling the collection off significantly over recent years. Mainly through "Mr Ferrari" Michael Sheehan. I wouldn't mind his 1 of 1 factory black (rather than a repaint) 288GTO.
    Yeah he has a load of unique factory cars, which is only ever possible if you’re buying dozens per year from the factory and have a very deep wallet. A few of them have been seen passing through this part of the world in recent years, but it’s hard to keep track of what’s reported to be over 7,000 cars that he’s owned!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    edited July 2023

    Mortimer said:

    The LE results were a clear suggestion to me that:

    a) Sunak's latest form of Tory Statism isn't popular
    b) CCHQ still don't realise this

    I'm personally looking forward to the left of the party getting smashed, so we can return to proper right of centre pro-growth Conservatism at the subsequent election.

    That Sunak and Hunt are seen by Conservatives as insufficiently right wing is why Lady Starmer can go to the home furnishing department of John Lewis with some confidence, and should probably look to get something that's going to last a decent length of time.
    I had to reread that carefully after the reference to JL eight posts down!

    Edit: Lady S definitely not one of that kind of customer, I hasten to add. But the juxtaposition was so bizarre.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    hired an advertising industry heavyweight as the CEO.

    And apparently locked her in a room

    Trussk is still the face of the company and its increasingly annoying actions.

    Having killed all the 3rd party apps they have now killed Tweetdeck. Good news for those who don't like Tweets posted here...
    Because a business is unsustainable when millions of industrial-scale users are paying nothing for it.

    They’ve never made a profit, and were losing $128m a quarter before the takeover. There wasn’t a sustainable business there. https://investor.twitterinc.com/files/doc_financials/2022/q1/Final-Q1’22-earnings-release.pdf

    Yes, Musk and friends way overpaid, and are probably going to have to put a load more cash in at some point.
    "Because a business is unsustainable when millions of industrial-scale users are paying nothing for it."

    I don't pay anything directly for Google and Facebook. Obviously I pay indirectly, through advertising costs, but they're free to me as an end-user. They are both profitable because they understand their customers.

    The 'customers' are not you and me, but the advertisers. Now, ask yourself how Twitter can attract advertisers to a platform that in the name of 'free speech' allows anyone to say virtually anything. Where their ads might be served alongside (say) neo-Nazi comments.

    Which is another reason YouTube et al get 'overly censorious'.

    As I've said passim, Musk simply does not understand advertising.
    The problem was that the industrial users were on Tweetdeck, not on Twitter and not seeing any adverts. Hence now restricting that service to those paying Twitter directly.

    I know Musk doesn’t understand advertising, which is why he hired an advertising exec and is getting revenue directly from users.
    Let's run some figures. In 2021, Twitter made $4.6 billion from advertising. (1)

    Let's say the subscription costs $8 a month, or ~$100 a year.

    Let's also say advertising revenue has halved to $2.3 billion.

    To make up that 'lost' $2.3 billion, you would need 23 million subscribers, as you make Twitter less appealing to non-subscribers. And have to service a humongous debt. And now pay put to 'large' tweeters.

    That's a big ask, for something that was free before.

    (1): https://www.oberlo.com/statistics/twitter-ad-revenue
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Nigelb said:

    Don't trust contact numbers from Google maps. A fair few seem to have been altered by scammers:
    https://twitter.com/Shmuli/status/1680669938468499458

    Restaurants have had problems with phone number scamming for ages, with third-party delivery companies intercepting the call for a cut of the order.
    https://www.vice.com/en/article/wjwebw/yelp-is-sneakily-replacing-restaurants-phone-numbers-so-grubhub-can-take-a-cut
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    This story is possible of interest too:

    Plan to crack down on 'rip-off' university degrees
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66216005

    I hope that includes a commitment to phase out PPE at Oxford and the MA in Public Policy at Birkbeck. Given the vast amounts their graduates cost the nation they're definitely a rip off.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:
    ...
    There is a strand of opinion that prosecuting shoplifters is pointless and cruel.

    The low value of the actual product stolen, per theft, is often pointed out.

    In parts of the US, prosecution has been stopped. Leaving to organised theft rings. And stores quitting the areas in question.
This discussion has been closed.