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Even Tory LEAVE voters don’t want Johnson back – politicalbetting.com

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  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,609
    Miklosvar said:

    Selebian said:

    HYUFD said:

    @alexwickham
    NEW:

    '— Rachel Reeves sends personal letters to Tory donors inviting them to 1-1 breakfasts

    — ramping up of Labour outreach to biz/City with direct pitch to Tory backers

    — one donor who got an invite open to meeting. Another already met Labour officials'
    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1679748602678091777?s=20

    Labour officials' what? Don't leave us hanging HYUFD :disappointed:

    (dogs? families? expectations?)
    under age daughters.
    :open_mouth:
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    edited July 2023

    SKS's Labour is now unquestionably more right wing than Sunak's Tories.

    No it isn't, and no sane person would even think it is.

    Can we have a SKSDS acronym please?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    HYUFD said:

    @alexwickham
    NEW:

    '— Rachel Reeves sends personal letters to Tory donors inviting them to 1-1 breakfasts

    — ramping up of Labour outreach to biz/City with direct pitch to Tory backers

    — one donor who got an invite open to meeting. Another already met Labour officials'
    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1679748602678091777?s=20

    This is exactly what Bill Clinton did with Republican donors and what New Labour did with Tory donors pre 97.

    It is smart politics in a number of ways.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    It is totally barmy to take a local by-election result and extrapolate that to the whole country.

    If people post local results we need to see the actual vote numbers.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,637
    HYUFD said:

    First non Labour Councillor on Newham Council for over a decade

    One of the many Socialists expelled from Labour wins against SKS puppet.

    He says he was "falsely accused" of liking an antisemitic cartoon in 2018 and standing up for Jo Bird the Socialist Jew when she was accused of being a Socialist i mean Anti Semite and expelled.

    My Party came 3rd with a very decent 21%

    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    1h
    Boleyn (Newham) council by-election result:

    IND: 42.5% (+42.5)
    LAB: 32.1% (-27.0)
    GRN: 21.1% (+3.5)
    CON: 2.5% (-15.6)
    REF: 0.8% (+0.8)
    LDEM: 0.8% (+0.8)

    Votes cast: 2,710

    Independent GAIN from Labour.

    I am sure Sir Keir will be terrified at the small swing in Newham from overwhelmingly Labour to slightly less Labour as Corbynites like you have a tantrum and vote Independent or Green
    You a SKS Fan now?

    Not surprising as he is to the right of Sunak.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314

    TOPPING said:

    So. Is the BBC biased politically (forget Huw Edwards) or not and if it is, which way?

    I saw an old mate of mine last night. To the left, shall we say, and he was fuming that eg The Today Programme might as well be an arm of government.

    Whereas from my right-leaning, civilised, thoughtful perspective I think the BBC leans left.

    I dislike the fact that they always have to so maniacally strive for "balance" and "inclusivity" but I understand it also.

    As they say if we're both convinced of our view then perhaps it is therefore doing something right.

    It is a Tory trope that the BBC hates them, but George Osborne's wedding was attended by Nick Robinson, Emily Maitlis and Jon Sopel, oh, and of course, Thea Rogers.
    Another example of the insidious nature of the interaction between media and politics. At the top, they’re mostly all ‘elites’ who know each other well, and hang out with each other outside of work.

    How well do we expect the media, to hold their friends to account?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,695
    edited July 2023
    theakes said:

    Local by election yesterday in a Lib Dem target area:-
    Chippenham (Wiltshire) Town Council Byelection Sheldon Ward result:
    Churchman (Con)127 (17.6%)
    Clarke (Ind) 112 (16.6%)
    Ward (LD) 481 (66.8%)
    I suppose this is the other side of the story as against Dinnington.

    Ignore my other posts that you shouldn't read too much into single local by-elections. LD landslide at the next GE.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,364
    The BBC does try to be politically balanced, but it is naturally on the more wokish, Metropolitan side. Like an elephant balancing on a wire, it can tip sometimes. As has been said, climate change is one such subject.

    But it does try.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    edited July 2023
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    So. Is the BBC biased politically (forget Huw Edwards) or not and if it is, which way?

    I saw an old mate of mine last night. To the left, shall we say, and he was fuming that eg The Today Programme might as well be an arm of government.

    Whereas from my right-leaning, civilised, thoughtful perspective I think the BBC leans left.

    I dislike the fact that they always have to so maniacally strive for "balance" and "inclusivity" but I understand it also.

    As they say if we're both convinced of our view then perhaps it is therefore doing something right.

    Although annoying both left and right does not mean that the BBC is balanced.

    FWIW I think the BBC tries very hard to be balanced on most things (not all - there is now no hint of skepticism left when reporting climate science, for instance, when some of the more out there claims/predictions ought to be at best queried). It does, however, tend to skew urban, metropolitan. I don't think it has a clue about the countryside and rural affairs, as shown by Countryfile, which is a programme about the countryside made by city dwellers, for city dwellers.
    Yes there's plenty wrong with it.

    And as for climate, my point to my friend was that they would never dare have someone from "the other side" to argue a different position on climate change.
    When they ever did get someone from ‘the other side’, it would be a flat Earth fanatic rather than another scientist. Someone designed to come across badly to the audience, as opposed to the balanced view of someone advocating increase in technology vs someone more in favour of restrictions.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    Ok, pub question to annoy everyone.

    In what way was Lloyd George the last Liberal to hold government office before Nick Clegg in 2010?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,302
    Have we done this?


  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    HYUFD said:

    The 43% of 2019 Tory voters who want Boris back as an MP cannot be ignored by Rishi however, he needs them voting Tory next year not Reform or staying home.

    Note also while voters overall think Sunak has been a better PM than Johnson by 26% to 21%, 2019 Conservative voters think Johnson was a better PM than Sunak by 35% to 23%. Johnson also has the problem now he has stepped down as MP for Uxbridge he would have to get on the CCHQ approved candidates list to stand as a Tory candidate again and again and that may not happen with Rishi as leader. Corbyn of course blocked from being a Labour candidate by Starmer too and ready to stand as an Indepedent in Islington North

    Yes they can be ignored.

    Now where have I put that PIN and my security detail?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    Have we done this?


    She is absolutely fucking crazy.

    I mean, did she not even think of the implications of 'heads pick up children in their homes?'
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    So. Is the BBC biased politically (forget Huw Edwards) or not and if it is, which way?

    I saw an old mate of mine last night. To the left, shall we say, and he was fuming that eg The Today Programme might as well be an arm of government.

    Whereas from my right-leaning, civilised, thoughtful perspective I think the BBC leans left.

    I dislike the fact that they always have to so maniacally strive for "balance" and "inclusivity" but I understand it also.

    As they say if we're both convinced of our view then perhaps it is therefore doing something right.

    Although annoying both left and right does not mean that the BBC is balanced.

    FWIW I think the BBC tries very hard to be balanced on most things (not all - there is now no hint of skepticism left when reporting climate science, for instance, when some of the more out there claims/predictions ought to be at best queried). It does, however, tend to skew urban, metropolitan. I don't think it has a clue about the countryside and rural affairs, as shown by Countryfile, which is a programme about the countryside made by city dwellers, for city dwellers.
    Yes there's plenty wrong with it.

    And as for climate, my point to my friend was that they would never dare have someone from "the other side" to argue a different position on climate change.
    When they ever did get someone from ‘the other side’, it would be a flat Earth fanatic rather than another scientist.
    That may have been only partly their fault. FEFs so not have careers which they would endanger by voicing private doubts.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    HYUFD said:

    @PeoplesMomentum
    'When appeals are not even heard..

    And *100%* of those that are heard are rejected..

    And left-wingers are blocked en masses from selections...

    Then pluralism, democracy & due process are dying in Starmer's Labour.'
    https://twitter.com/PeoplesMomentum/status/1679453208651939840?s=20

    They need to stand on their own

    If they cut a deal with pissed off tories where they stand too, we could have an interesting election instead of the usual see saw voting
    We stand alone in glorious perpetual opposition doesn't look like a plan for government to me.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360
    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    So. Is the BBC biased politically (forget Huw Edwards) or not and if it is, which way?

    I saw an old mate of mine last night. To the left, shall we say, and he was fuming that eg The Today Programme might as well be an arm of government.

    Whereas from my right-leaning, civilised, thoughtful perspective I think the BBC leans left.

    I dislike the fact that they always have to so maniacally strive for "balance" and "inclusivity" but I understand it also.

    As they say if we're both convinced of our view then perhaps it is therefore doing something right.

    The BBC largely does it's job as a neutral platform. As the literal voice of the establishment it pisses off the left. And as a den of leftie woke liberals it pisses off the right.

    As an example, Laura K seems to wind up a lot of people with her "bias" but so many of the accusations don't stand up to scrutiny. People call others biased when they don't say what they think.

    Where the been has crossed the line has been the imposition of direct Tory party plants to head BBC News, be DG and Chair. Though their malign influence the left alleges is so subtle as to hardly be an issue. Not compared to right wing tabloids anyway.
    There was a very famous media study done by Ben Gurion University in Israel. They took footage of the Gaza strip and a team of students, half Israeli half Palestinian, spend some time crafting an incredibly neutral - solely fact based - story that they claimed was played on television. They asked both Israeli and Palestinian students to opine on which TV channel it was shown, whether it was biased, how it was biased, etc.

    Everyone thought the story was biased. Israelis thought it pro-Palestinian. Palestinians thought it pro-Israeli. Because it didn't show the narrative they wanted (their side good, the other bad), it was inherently considered to be the work of political opponents.

    It turns out humans don't really want impartiality; what they want is their existing preconceptions to be reinforced.
    If you were wanting to do a study on how attempts at factual unbiased reporting is perceived by different groups it would be hard to imagine a worse or less representative way of doing it than in Israel dealing with issues in Gaza.

    Two more things; is there really such a thing as a 'fact' as opposed to value laden facts in any sort of reporting.

    Secondly, what would unbiased reporting of the Ukraine/Russia war be like, and does anyone try?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,637

    It is totally barmy to take a local by-election result and extrapolate that to the whole country.

    If people post local results we need to see the actual vote numbers.

    Boleyn Newham was
    1152 Socialist Independent Candidate up from Zero
    870 SKS Puppet down by more than 500

    and I havent seen anyone extrapolating that to the whole country as that would be barmy
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,412
    ydoethur said:

    Have we done this?


    She is absolutely fucking crazy.

    I mean, did she not even think of the implications of 'heads pick up children in their homes?'
    I believe the trial they ran was quite successful. Luckily we got a photo from it for the policy launch.


  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,794
    edited July 2023
    ydoethur said:

    Ok, pub question to annoy everyone.

    In what way was Lloyd George the last Liberal to hold government office before Nick Clegg in 2010?

    Oh God. Is this one of those Liberal Party split things, or was Clegg first elected before the Libs merged with the SDP to produce the LibDems?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Liberal_Party_(UK,_1918)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Liberal_Party_(UK,_1922)
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,069
    ydoethur said:

    Have we done this?


    She is absolutely fucking crazy.

    I mean, did she not even think of the implications of 'heads pick up children in their homes?'
    I mean, did she not even think of the implications of 'heads pick up children in their homes? Ever?

    Remember folks, we have up to 18 months of this to go.

    Don't have nightmares.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,302

    It is totally barmy to take a local by-election result and extrapolate that to the whole country.

    If people post local results we need to see the actual vote numbers.

    Boleyn Newham was
    1152 Socialist Independent Candidate up from Zero
    870 SKS Puppet down by more than 500

    and I havent seen anyone extrapolating that to the whole country as that would be barmy
    Confirms what an idiot Corbyn is though.

    What kind of socialist kept on promoting and trusting a Tory like Starmer.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    Headteachers have suggested a new strategy for dealing with absence.

    'If somebody were to visit Gillian Keegan's place down in Chichester,' commented an anonymous official of the NAHT, 'they might find where she's left her brain this morning.'

    Other teachers expressed reservations. 'First of all, we've never seen any evidence she has a brain,' commented a Head of Physics. 'But even if she does, we're so short of microscopes I don't want the Head taking one of them away from Year 9 to go look for it.'

    The DfE made no comment, other than to reiterate they approve of OFSTED when it suits them and ignore it when it doesn't, and that their own absence problem had been solved by some lackey buying a new corkscrew from the local Tesco Express.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    ydoethur said:

    Ok, pub question to annoy everyone.

    In what way was Lloyd George the last Liberal to hold government office before Nick Clegg in 2010?

    Is that a trick question because Nick Clegg is a Tory? Come to think of it, so was Lloyd George.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    ydoethur said:

    Ok, pub question to annoy everyone.

    In what way was Lloyd George the last Liberal to hold government office before Nick Clegg in 2010?

    Is that a trick question because Nick Clegg is a Tory? Come to think of it, so was Lloyd George.
    The irony is, your second sentence is close to the truth - probably closer than you realise.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,637
    Good result for Sunak in Rotherham

    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    1h
    Dinnington (Rotherham) council by-election result:

    CON: 42.7% (+10.5) i make that 1063
    LAB: 32.9% (+10.3) i make that 819
    LDEM: 10.5% (+2.5)
    IND: 7.9% (-3.2)
    REF: 2.4% (+2.4)
    GRN: 2.4% (-6.6)
    YRK: 1.1% (+1.1)

    Votes cast: 2,490

    Conservative HOLD.

    Dont extrapolate to the rest of the country !!
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,069
    edited July 2023
    boulay said:

    ydoethur said:

    Have we done this?


    She is absolutely fucking crazy.

    I mean, did she not even think of the implications of 'heads pick up children in their homes?'
    I believe the trial they ran was quite successful. Luckily we got a photo from it for the policy launch.


    Good to see Jacob Rees-Mogg having a post-election career plan. But boy, has he let himself go.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    ydoethur said:

    Have we done this?


    She is absolutely fucking crazy.

    I mean, did she not even think of the implications of 'heads pick up children in their homes?'
    She had a chat with OFSTED and they gave it the thumbs up ?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,637

    It is totally barmy to take a local by-election result and extrapolate that to the whole country.

    If people post local results we need to see the actual vote numbers.

    Boleyn Newham was
    1152 Socialist Independent Candidate up from Zero
    870 SKS Puppet down by more than 500

    and I havent seen anyone extrapolating that to the whole country as that would be barmy
    Confirms what an idiot Corbyn is though.

    What kind of socialist kept on promoting and trusting a Tory like Starmer.
    Agreed.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    Miklosvar said:

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    So. Is the BBC biased politically (forget Huw Edwards) or not and if it is, which way?

    I saw an old mate of mine last night. To the left, shall we say, and he was fuming that eg The Today Programme might as well be an arm of government.

    Whereas from my right-leaning, civilised, thoughtful perspective I think the BBC leans left.

    I dislike the fact that they always have to so maniacally strive for "balance" and "inclusivity" but I understand it also.

    As they say if we're both convinced of our view then perhaps it is therefore doing something right.

    Although annoying both left and right does not mean that the BBC is balanced.

    FWIW I think the BBC tries very hard to be balanced on most things (not all - there is now no hint of skepticism left when reporting climate science, for instance, when some of the more out there claims/predictions ought to be at best queried). It does, however, tend to skew urban, metropolitan. I don't think it has a clue about the countryside and rural affairs, as shown by Countryfile, which is a programme about the countryside made by city dwellers, for city dwellers.
    Yes there's plenty wrong with it.

    And as for climate, my point to my friend was that they would never dare have someone from "the other side" to argue a different position on climate change.
    When they ever did get someone from ‘the other side’, it would be a flat Earth fanatic rather than another scientist.
    That may have been only partly their fault. FEFs so not have careers which they would endanger by voicing private doubts.
    Which is actually a large part of the problem, that all the scientific research funding is on one side.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,412

    boulay said:

    ydoethur said:

    Have we done this?


    She is absolutely fucking crazy.

    I mean, did she not even think of the implications of 'heads pick up children in their homes?'
    I believe the trial they ran was quite successful. Luckily we got a photo from it for the policy launch.


    Good to see Jacob Rees-Mogg having a post-election career plan. But boy, has he let himself go.
    Only in his wildest does he hold the whip hand.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    algarkirk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    So. Is the BBC biased politically (forget Huw Edwards) or not and if it is, which way?

    I saw an old mate of mine last night. To the left, shall we say, and he was fuming that eg The Today Programme might as well be an arm of government.

    Whereas from my right-leaning, civilised, thoughtful perspective I think the BBC leans left.

    I dislike the fact that they always have to so maniacally strive for "balance" and "inclusivity" but I understand it also.

    As they say if we're both convinced of our view then perhaps it is therefore doing something right.

    The BBC largely does it's job as a neutral platform. As the literal voice of the establishment it pisses off the left. And as a den of leftie woke liberals it pisses off the right.

    As an example, Laura K seems to wind up a lot of people with her "bias" but so many of the accusations don't stand up to scrutiny. People call others biased when they don't say what they think.

    Where the been has crossed the line has been the imposition of direct Tory party plants to head BBC News, be DG and Chair. Though their malign influence the left alleges is so subtle as to hardly be an issue. Not compared to right wing tabloids anyway.
    There was a very famous media study done by Ben Gurion University in Israel. They took footage of the Gaza strip and a team of students, half Israeli half Palestinian, spend some time crafting an incredibly neutral - solely fact based - story that they claimed was played on television. They asked both Israeli and Palestinian students to opine on which TV channel it was shown, whether it was biased, how it was biased, etc.

    Everyone thought the story was biased. Israelis thought it pro-Palestinian. Palestinians thought it pro-Israeli. Because it didn't show the narrative they wanted (their side good, the other bad), it was inherently considered to be the work of political opponents.

    It turns out humans don't really want impartiality; what they want is their existing preconceptions to be reinforced.
    If you were wanting to do a study on how attempts at factual unbiased reporting is perceived by different groups it would be hard to imagine a worse or less representative way of doing it than in Israel dealing with issues in Gaza.

    Two more things; is there really such a thing as a 'fact' as opposed to value laden facts in any sort of reporting.

    Secondly, what would unbiased reporting of the Ukraine/Russia war be like, and does anyone try?
    Like this.
    https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-ukrainian.html?m=1
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575
    Selebian said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Selebian said:

    HYUFD said:

    @alexwickham
    NEW:

    '— Rachel Reeves sends personal letters to Tory donors inviting them to 1-1 breakfasts

    — ramping up of Labour outreach to biz/City with direct pitch to Tory backers

    — one donor who got an invite open to meeting. Another already met Labour officials'
    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1679748602678091777?s=20

    Labour officials' what? Don't leave us hanging HYUFD :disappointed:

    (dogs? families? expectations?)
    under age daughters.
    :open_mouth:
    Not the Nine O'Clock News.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_72jEeaC_gE
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,551
    ydoethur said:

    Have we done this?


    She is absolutely fucking crazy.

    I mean, did she not even think of the implications of 'heads pick up children in their homes?'
    Thank you Malcolm (T). Straight from the Thick of It!
  • PJHPJH Posts: 637
    Newham - Wall End
    Lab - 1659
    C - 739
    LD - 138
    G - 123
    Ref - 58
    Turnout 25.1%

    Boleyn
    Ind - 1153
    Lab - 871
    G - 572
    C - 69
    Ref - 23
    LD - 22
    Turnout 27.7%
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    algarkirk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    So. Is the BBC biased politically (forget Huw Edwards) or not and if it is, which way?

    I saw an old mate of mine last night. To the left, shall we say, and he was fuming that eg The Today Programme might as well be an arm of government.

    Whereas from my right-leaning, civilised, thoughtful perspective I think the BBC leans left.

    I dislike the fact that they always have to so maniacally strive for "balance" and "inclusivity" but I understand it also.

    As they say if we're both convinced of our view then perhaps it is therefore doing something right.

    The BBC largely does it's job as a neutral platform. As the literal voice of the establishment it pisses off the left. And as a den of leftie woke liberals it pisses off the right.

    As an example, Laura K seems to wind up a lot of people with her "bias" but so many of the accusations don't stand up to scrutiny. People call others biased when they don't say what they think.

    Where the been has crossed the line has been the imposition of direct Tory party plants to head BBC News, be DG and Chair. Though their malign influence the left alleges is so subtle as to hardly be an issue. Not compared to right wing tabloids anyway.
    There was a very famous media study done by Ben Gurion University in Israel. They took footage of the Gaza strip and a team of students, half Israeli half Palestinian, spend some time crafting an incredibly neutral - solely fact based - story that they claimed was played on television. They asked both Israeli and Palestinian students to opine on which TV channel it was shown, whether it was biased, how it was biased, etc.

    Everyone thought the story was biased. Israelis thought it pro-Palestinian. Palestinians thought it pro-Israeli. Because it didn't show the narrative they wanted (their side good, the other bad), it was inherently considered to be the work of political opponents.

    It turns out humans don't really want impartiality; what they want is their existing preconceptions to be reinforced.
    If you were wanting to do a study on how attempts at factual unbiased reporting is perceived by different groups it would be hard to imagine a worse or less representative way of doing it than in Israel dealing with issues in Gaza.

    Two more things; is there really such a thing as a 'fact' as opposed to value laden facts in any sort of reporting.

    Secondly, what would unbiased reporting of the Ukraine/Russia war be like, and does anyone try?
    My father (professional philosopher) found teaching on the nature of truth, impartiality etc to be excellent fun.

    The lightbulb moments when people realise they aren’t Platonic Philosopher Kings - just human, with biases….

    One of the amusements of the Title 9 stuff in the US, was the invention of “courts” by the universities. Which became a speed run through the history of legal procedure and defendants rights. Highlights included -

    - One member of a panel declaring that everyone brought before the panel was guilty, because they wouldn’t have be accused unless guilty
    - one Professor said he couldn’t be biased because he was a Professor
    - A university had a form letter to send to all witnesses who gave evidence on behalf of someone accused of title 9 violations. The form letter stated that if they have evidence for the defence, that *when* the accused was convicted, they would be “convicted” as well and thrown out of the university.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586

    It is totally barmy to take a local by-election result and extrapolate that to the whole country.

    If people post local results we need to see the actual vote numbers.

    Boleyn Newham was
    1152 Socialist Independent Candidate up from Zero
    870 SKS Puppet down by more than 500

    and I havent seen anyone extrapolating that to the whole country as that would be barmy
    Confirms what an idiot Corbyn is though.

    What kind of socialist kept on promoting and trusting a Tory like Starmer.
    Agreed.
    I’ve met ultras who think that Corbyn was a right wing sellout.
  • TOPPING said:

    So. Is the BBC biased politically (forget Huw Edwards) or not and if it is, which way?

    I saw an old mate of mine last night. To the left, shall we say, and he was fuming that eg The Today Programme might as well be an arm of government.

    Whereas from my right-leaning, civilised, thoughtful perspective I think the BBC leans left.

    I dislike the fact that they always have to so maniacally strive for "balance" and "inclusivity" but I understand it also.

    As they say if we're both convinced of our view then perhaps it is therefore doing something right.

    Although annoying both left and right does not mean that the BBC is balanced.

    FWIW I think the BBC tries very hard to be balanced on most things (not all - there is now no hint of skepticism left when reporting climate science, for instance, when some of the more out there claims/predictions ought to be at best queried). It does, however, tend to skew urban, metropolitan. I don't think it has a clue about the countryside and rural affairs, as shown by Countryfile, which is a programme about the countryside made by city dwellers, for city dwellers.
    I suspect the BBC likes to be patriotically supportive of the Government of the day and sometimes this offends the Opposition of the day.

    My biggest beef with the BBC is it's balancing or equalising for example Patrick Minford's view as equal to the million economists who say his analysis is tosh.

    Making out Beergate to he as egregious as Partygate was another fail in the interests of "balance"

    The most absurd is the one I always bang on about "Boris and the curious case of the Cenotaph".

    Edwards was the most egregious proponent when it came to throwing in an absurdity to ensure non -partisanship.
    Or, for example, equating Nigel Lawson's view on climate change as equal to the thousands of climate scientists who said he was talking complete bollocks.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41744344
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,637
    PJH said:

    Newham - Wall End
    Lab - 1659
    C - 739
    LD - 138
    G - 123
    Ref - 58
    Turnout 25.1%

    Boleyn
    Ind - 1153
    Lab - 871
    G - 572
    C - 69
    Ref - 23
    LD - 22
    Turnout 27.7%

    As the dyslexic dalek would say EXTRAPOLATE EXTRAPOLATE

    But dont it would be barmy as our gracious host says
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    ydoethur said:

    Headteachers have suggested a new strategy for dealing with absence.

    'If somebody were to visit Gillian Keegan's place down in Chichester,' commented an anonymous official of the NAHT, 'they might find where she's left her brain this morning.'

    Other teachers expressed reservations. 'First of all, we've never seen any evidence she has a brain,' commented a Head of Physics. 'But even if she does, we're so short of microscopes I don't want the Head taking one of them away from Year 9 to go look for it.'

    The DfE made no comment, other than to reiterate they approve of OFSTED when it suits them and ignore it when it doesn't, and that their own absence problem had been solved by some lackey buying a new corkscrew from the local Tesco Express.

    That’s bullshit. You are claiming a state school has working microscopes for Year 9?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,503
    algarkirk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    So. Is the BBC biased politically (forget Huw Edwards) or not and if it is, which way?

    I saw an old mate of mine last night. To the left, shall we say, and he was fuming that eg The Today Programme might as well be an arm of government.

    Whereas from my right-leaning, civilised, thoughtful perspective I think the BBC leans left.

    I dislike the fact that they always have to so maniacally strive for "balance" and "inclusivity" but I understand it also.

    As they say if we're both convinced of our view then perhaps it is therefore doing something right.

    The BBC largely does it's job as a neutral platform. As the literal voice of the establishment it pisses off the left. And as a den of leftie woke liberals it pisses off the right.

    As an example, Laura K seems to wind up a lot of people with her "bias" but so many of the accusations don't stand up to scrutiny. People call others biased when they don't say what they think.

    Where the been has crossed the line has been the imposition of direct Tory party plants to head BBC News, be DG and Chair. Though their malign influence the left alleges is so subtle as to hardly be an issue. Not compared to right wing tabloids anyway.
    There was a very famous media study done by Ben Gurion University in Israel. They took footage of the Gaza strip and a team of students, half Israeli half Palestinian, spend some time crafting an incredibly neutral - solely fact based - story that they claimed was played on television. They asked both Israeli and Palestinian students to opine on which TV channel it was shown, whether it was biased, how it was biased, etc.

    Everyone thought the story was biased. Israelis thought it pro-Palestinian. Palestinians thought it pro-Israeli. Because it didn't show the narrative they wanted (their side good, the other bad), it was inherently considered to be the work of political opponents.

    It turns out humans don't really want impartiality; what they want is their existing preconceptions to be reinforced.
    If you were wanting to do a study on how attempts at factual unbiased reporting is perceived by different groups it would be hard to imagine a worse or less representative way of doing it than in Israel dealing with issues in Gaza.

    Two more things; is there really such a thing as a 'fact' as opposed to value laden facts in any sort of reporting.

    Secondly, what would unbiased reporting of the Ukraine/Russia war be like, and does anyone try?
    Interviews with non-combatants on both sides, not selected to "make the story", would be interesting. Al Jazeera had a go at interviewing people in Russian-occupied Donbas (IIRC the general view was "Russia OK but wish the war would stop"), but of course many people will be hesitant to say anything against the currently controlling power. Austrian-based Tom Cooper has a reasonable shot at dispassionate military analysis, although he is very firmly pro-Ukraine and IMO tediously sarcastic about everyone: https://substack.com/app?utm_source=email . Simply telling us what both sides are reporting from the front (as Cooper does) is a good start - we tend only to report Ukrainian claims, even when they're implausible and Western intelligence dismisses them ("Russians have placed objects that might be bombs to blow up the nuclear plant and irradiate themselves"). But because the front is so deadlocked it doesn't make a good story.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,113
    ydoethur said:

    Have we done this?


    She is absolutely fucking crazy.

    I mean, did she not even think of the implications of 'heads pick up children in their homes?'
    Watch the interview. It is very good. She didn't say that.

    The interviewer said that some heads were already doing this and she, recognising the problem, defended them "we all have to play our part". I thought it was a good interview. I liked the interviewer.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205

    algarkirk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    So. Is the BBC biased politically (forget Huw Edwards) or not and if it is, which way?

    I saw an old mate of mine last night. To the left, shall we say, and he was fuming that eg The Today Programme might as well be an arm of government.

    Whereas from my right-leaning, civilised, thoughtful perspective I think the BBC leans left.

    I dislike the fact that they always have to so maniacally strive for "balance" and "inclusivity" but I understand it also.

    As they say if we're both convinced of our view then perhaps it is therefore doing something right.

    The BBC largely does it's job as a neutral platform. As the literal voice of the establishment it pisses off the left. And as a den of leftie woke liberals it pisses off the right.

    As an example, Laura K seems to wind up a lot of people with her "bias" but so many of the accusations don't stand up to scrutiny. People call others biased when they don't say what they think.

    Where the been has crossed the line has been the imposition of direct Tory party plants to head BBC News, be DG and Chair. Though their malign influence the left alleges is so subtle as to hardly be an issue. Not compared to right wing tabloids anyway.
    There was a very famous media study done by Ben Gurion University in Israel. They took footage of the Gaza strip and a team of students, half Israeli half Palestinian, spend some time crafting an incredibly neutral - solely fact based - story that they claimed was played on television. They asked both Israeli and Palestinian students to opine on which TV channel it was shown, whether it was biased, how it was biased, etc.

    Everyone thought the story was biased. Israelis thought it pro-Palestinian. Palestinians thought it pro-Israeli. Because it didn't show the narrative they wanted (their side good, the other bad), it was inherently considered to be the work of political opponents.

    It turns out humans don't really want impartiality; what they want is their existing preconceptions to be reinforced.
    If you were wanting to do a study on how attempts at factual unbiased reporting is perceived by different groups it would be hard to imagine a worse or less representative way of doing it than in Israel dealing with issues in Gaza.

    Two more things; is there really such a thing as a 'fact' as opposed to value laden facts in any sort of reporting.

    Secondly, what would unbiased reporting of the Ukraine/Russia war be like, and does anyone try?
    Interviews with non-combatants on both sides, not selected to "make the story", would be interesting. Al Jazeera had a go at interviewing people in Russian-occupied Donbas (IIRC the general view was "Russia OK but wish the war would stop"), but of course many people will be hesitant to say anything against the currently controlling power. Austrian-based Tom Cooper has a reasonable shot at dispassionate military analysis, although he is very firmly pro-Ukraine and IMO tediously sarcastic about everyone: https://substack.com/app?utm_source=email . Simply telling us what both sides are reporting from the front (as Cooper does) is a good start - we tend only to report Ukrainian claims, even when they're implausible and Western intelligence dismisses them ("Russians have placed objects that might be bombs to blow up the nuclear plant and irradiate themselves"). But because the front is so deadlocked it doesn't make a good story.
    Why do you think the Russians blowing up the ZNPP as 'implausible' ? Did you think them blowing up the dam was 'implausible' two months ago?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,637

    It is totally barmy to take a local by-election result and extrapolate that to the whole country.

    If people post local results we need to see the actual vote numbers.

    Boleyn Newham was
    1152 Socialist Independent Candidate up from Zero
    870 SKS Puppet down by more than 500

    and I havent seen anyone extrapolating that to the whole country as that would be barmy
    Confirms what an idiot Corbyn is though.

    What kind of socialist kept on promoting and trusting a Tory like Starmer.
    Agreed.
    I’ve met ultras who think that Corbyn was a right wing sellout.
    Ive met Blairites that think Socialists are made of green cheese
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Ok, pub question to annoy everyone.

    In what way was Lloyd George the last Liberal to hold government office before Nick Clegg in 2010?

    Is that a trick question because Nick Clegg is a Tory? Come to think of it, so was Lloyd George.
    The irony is, your second sentence is close to the truth - probably closer than you realise.
    Which Lloyd George? The Home Secretary to Winston Churchill?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    Off-topic:

    For anyone who has ever wondered, an interesting (*) thread on why bricks are the size(s) they are:

    https://twitter.com/oldenoughtosay/status/1679446295734370305

    And some of it is to do with tax and the American war of independence:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brick_tax
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    A

    algarkirk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    So. Is the BBC biased politically (forget Huw Edwards) or not and if it is, which way?

    I saw an old mate of mine last night. To the left, shall we say, and he was fuming that eg The Today Programme might as well be an arm of government.

    Whereas from my right-leaning, civilised, thoughtful perspective I think the BBC leans left.

    I dislike the fact that they always have to so maniacally strive for "balance" and "inclusivity" but I understand it also.

    As they say if we're both convinced of our view then perhaps it is therefore doing something right.

    The BBC largely does it's job as a neutral platform. As the literal voice of the establishment it pisses off the left. And as a den of leftie woke liberals it pisses off the right.

    As an example, Laura K seems to wind up a lot of people with her "bias" but so many of the accusations don't stand up to scrutiny. People call others biased when they don't say what they think.

    Where the been has crossed the line has been the imposition of direct Tory party plants to head BBC News, be DG and Chair. Though their malign influence the left alleges is so subtle as to hardly be an issue. Not compared to right wing tabloids anyway.
    There was a very famous media study done by Ben Gurion University in Israel. They took footage of the Gaza strip and a team of students, half Israeli half Palestinian, spend some time crafting an incredibly neutral - solely fact based - story that they claimed was played on television. They asked both Israeli and Palestinian students to opine on which TV channel it was shown, whether it was biased, how it was biased, etc.

    Everyone thought the story was biased. Israelis thought it pro-Palestinian. Palestinians thought it pro-Israeli. Because it didn't show the narrative they wanted (their side good, the other bad), it was inherently considered to be the work of political opponents.

    It turns out humans don't really want impartiality; what they want is their existing preconceptions to be reinforced.
    If you were wanting to do a study on how attempts at factual unbiased reporting is perceived by different groups it would be hard to imagine a worse or less representative way of doing it than in Israel dealing with issues in Gaza.

    Two more things; is there really such a thing as a 'fact' as opposed to value laden facts in any sort of reporting.

    Secondly, what would unbiased reporting of the Ukraine/Russia war be like, and does anyone try?
    Interviews with non-combatants on both sides, not selected to "make the story", would be interesting. Al Jazeera had a go at interviewing people in Russian-occupied Donbas (IIRC the general view was "Russia OK but wish the war would stop"), but of course many people will be hesitant to say anything against the currently controlling power. Austrian-based Tom Cooper has a reasonable shot at dispassionate military analysis, although he is very firmly pro-Ukraine and IMO tediously sarcastic about everyone: https://substack.com/app?utm_source=email . Simply telling us what both sides are reporting from the front (as Cooper does) is a good start - we tend only to report Ukrainian claims, even when they're implausible and Western intelligence dismisses them ("Russians have placed objects that might be bombs to blow up the nuclear plant and irradiate themselves"). But because the front is so deadlocked it doesn't make a good story.
    Why do you think the Russians blowing up the ZNPP as 'implausible' ? Did you think them blowing up the dam was 'implausible' two months ago?
    One thing has become clear - that large chunks of the Russian leadership believe in a fair chunk of their own propaganda.

    One piece of which is that the Ukrainians are Nazis who are trying to make nuclear and biological weapons.

    In this context, destroying a nuclear power plant is a tough, but necessary thing, if they are about to lose control of it to the Jewish Nazi NATO forces.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,794
    Origin of the term "podule"

    "Not the Nine O'Clock News" episode 1980
    https://youtu.be/ScNu_Sbx84Q?t=412
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,637

    It is totally barmy to take a local by-election result and extrapolate that to the whole country.

    If people post local results we need to see the actual vote numbers.

    Boleyn Newham was
    1152 Socialist Independent Candidate up from Zero
    870 SKS Puppet down by more than 500

    and I havent seen anyone extrapolating that to the whole country as that would be barmy
    Confirms what an idiot Corbyn is though.

    What kind of socialist kept on promoting and trusting a Tory like Starmer.
    Agreed.
    I’ve met ultras who think that Corbyn was a right wing sellout.
    Stay away from SWP meetings would be my advice!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    A

    It is totally barmy to take a local by-election result and extrapolate that to the whole country.

    If people post local results we need to see the actual vote numbers.

    Boleyn Newham was
    1152 Socialist Independent Candidate up from Zero
    870 SKS Puppet down by more than 500

    and I havent seen anyone extrapolating that to the whole country as that would be barmy
    Confirms what an idiot Corbyn is though.

    What kind of socialist kept on promoting and trusting a Tory like Starmer.
    Agreed.
    I’ve met ultras who think that Corbyn was a right wing sellout.
    Stay away from SWP meetings would be my advice!
    These are Street Tankies - the Angry Men In Corduroy Trousers With Bicycle Clips manning the stalls on a Saturday.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    Sandpit said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    So. Is the BBC biased politically (forget Huw Edwards) or not and if it is, which way?

    I saw an old mate of mine last night. To the left, shall we say, and he was fuming that eg The Today Programme might as well be an arm of government.

    Whereas from my right-leaning, civilised, thoughtful perspective I think the BBC leans left.

    I dislike the fact that they always have to so maniacally strive for "balance" and "inclusivity" but I understand it also.

    As they say if we're both convinced of our view then perhaps it is therefore doing something right.

    Although annoying both left and right does not mean that the BBC is balanced.

    FWIW I think the BBC tries very hard to be balanced on most things (not all - there is now no hint of skepticism left when reporting climate science, for instance, when some of the more out there claims/predictions ought to be at best queried). It does, however, tend to skew urban, metropolitan. I don't think it has a clue about the countryside and rural affairs, as shown by Countryfile, which is a programme about the countryside made by city dwellers, for city dwellers.
    Yes there's plenty wrong with it.

    And as for climate, my point to my friend was that they would never dare have someone from "the other side" to argue a different position on climate change.
    When they ever did get someone from ‘the other side’, it would be a flat Earth fanatic rather than another scientist.
    That may have been only partly their fault. FEFs so not have careers which they would endanger by voicing private doubts.
    Which is actually a large part of the problem, that all the scientific research funding is on one side.
    There is a phenomenon of "scientific reticence" on climate change, where climatologists consistently underestimate it.

    https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/scientists-have-been-underestimating-the-pace-of-climate-change/

    Science doesn't have sides, though people who live in a petro-state and have an interest in aviation may well do.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575
    Stark gap between private and state school pupils getting into top universities widens
    Warnings of ‘education arms race’ as independent school students twice as likely to reach the best higher education institutions

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/13/private-schools-gap-with-state-education-rises/ (£££)

    Note that this might be exacerbated by the Covid-period exams based on teachers' estimates.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    viewcode said:

    Origin of the term "podule"

    "Not the Nine O'Clock News" episode 1980
    https://youtu.be/ScNu_Sbx84Q?t=412

    I only know of 'podule' wrt Acorn computers - a term for hardware expansion cards. Is there another meaning?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Ok, pub question to annoy everyone.

    In what way was Lloyd George the last Liberal to hold government office before Nick Clegg in 2010?

    Is that a trick question because Nick Clegg is a Tory? Come to think of it, so was Lloyd George.
    The irony is, your second sentence is close to the truth - probably closer than you realise.
    Which Lloyd George? The Home Secretary to Winston Churchill?
    We have a winner!

    And even if you believe that he was a Conservative in 1954 (he always described himself as a Liberal) he was also Minister for Fuel and Power from 1942-45 and the only minister holding the Liberal whip in Churchill's wartime coalition not to lose his seat in 1945.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    edited July 2023

    It is totally barmy to take a local by-election result and extrapolate that to the whole country.

    If people post local results we need to see the actual vote numbers.

    Boleyn Newham was
    1152 Socialist Independent Candidate up from Zero
    870 SKS Puppet down by more than 500

    and I havent seen anyone extrapolating that to the whole country as that would be barmy
    Confirms what an idiot Corbyn is though.

    What kind of socialist kept on promoting and trusting a Tory like Starmer.
    Agreed.
    I’ve met ultras who think that Corbyn was a right wing sellout.
    Ive met Blairites that think Socialists are made of green cheese
    They are. This is why Socialist’s babies are so delicious, when roasted.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,069
    Sandpit said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    So. Is the BBC biased politically (forget Huw Edwards) or not and if it is, which way?

    I saw an old mate of mine last night. To the left, shall we say, and he was fuming that eg The Today Programme might as well be an arm of government.

    Whereas from my right-leaning, civilised, thoughtful perspective I think the BBC leans left.

    I dislike the fact that they always have to so maniacally strive for "balance" and "inclusivity" but I understand it also.

    As they say if we're both convinced of our view then perhaps it is therefore doing something right.

    Although annoying both left and right does not mean that the BBC is balanced.

    FWIW I think the BBC tries very hard to be balanced on most things (not all - there is now no hint of skepticism left when reporting climate science, for instance, when some of the more out there claims/predictions ought to be at best queried). It does, however, tend to skew urban, metropolitan. I don't think it has a clue about the countryside and rural affairs, as shown by Countryfile, which is a programme about the countryside made by city dwellers, for city dwellers.
    Yes there's plenty wrong with it.

    And as for climate, my point to my friend was that they would never dare have someone from "the other side" to argue a different position on climate change.
    When they ever did get someone from ‘the other side’, it would be a flat Earth fanatic rather than another scientist.
    That may have been only partly their fault. FEFs so not have careers which they would endanger by voicing private doubts.
    Which is actually a large part of the problem, that all the scientific research funding is on one side.
    Question is, why is that so?

    Is climate orthodoxy getting all the money for broadly political reasons?

    Or is it that climate orthodoxy is, in rough terms, turning out to be right? The consensus predictions from 1990 are broadly matching the outcomes.

    A bit like Fred Hoyle's opposition to big bang cosmology. A serious scientist and, in the early days, he had a point. His challenges kept mainstream cosmologists honest. But as evidence kept coming in, his position became increasingly untenable.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    So. Is the BBC biased politically (forget Huw Edwards) or not and if it is, which way?

    I saw an old mate of mine last night. To the left, shall we say, and he was fuming that eg The Today Programme might as well be an arm of government.

    Whereas from my right-leaning, civilised, thoughtful perspective I think the BBC leans left.

    I dislike the fact that they always have to so maniacally strive for "balance" and "inclusivity" but I understand it also.

    As they say if we're both convinced of our view then perhaps it is therefore doing something right.

    Although annoying both left and right does not mean that the BBC is balanced.

    FWIW I think the BBC tries very hard to be balanced on most things (not all - there is now no hint of skepticism left when reporting climate science, for instance, when some of the more out there claims/predictions ought to be at best queried). It does, however, tend to skew urban, metropolitan. I don't think it has a clue about the countryside and rural affairs, as shown by Countryfile, which is a programme about the countryside made by city dwellers, for city dwellers.
    Yes there's plenty wrong with it.

    And as for climate, my point to my friend was that they would never dare have someone from "the other side" to argue a different position on climate change.
    When they ever did get someone from ‘the other side’, it would be a flat Earth fanatic rather than another scientist.
    That may have been only partly their fault. FEFs so not have careers which they would endanger by voicing private doubts.
    Which is actually a large part of the problem, that all the scientific research funding is on one side.
    There is a phenomenon of "scientific reticence" on climate change, where climatologists consistently underestimate it.

    https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/scientists-have-been-underestimating-the-pace-of-climate-change/

    Science doesn't have sides, though people who live in a petro-state and have an interest in aviation may well do.
    Or indeed users of those products.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    So. Is the BBC biased politically (forget Huw Edwards) or not and if it is, which way?

    I saw an old mate of mine last night. To the left, shall we say, and he was fuming that eg The Today Programme might as well be an arm of government.

    Whereas from my right-leaning, civilised, thoughtful perspective I think the BBC leans left.

    I dislike the fact that they always have to so maniacally strive for "balance" and "inclusivity" but I understand it also.

    As they say if we're both convinced of our view then perhaps it is therefore doing something right.

    Although annoying both left and right does not mean that the BBC is balanced.

    FWIW I think the BBC tries very hard to be balanced on most things (not all - there is now no hint of skepticism left when reporting climate science, for instance, when some of the more out there claims/predictions ought to be at best queried). It does, however, tend to skew urban, metropolitan. I don't think it has a clue about the countryside and rural affairs, as shown by Countryfile, which is a programme about the countryside made by city dwellers, for city dwellers.
    Yes there's plenty wrong with it.

    And as for climate, my point to my friend was that they would never dare have someone from "the other side" to argue a different position on climate change.
    When they ever did get someone from ‘the other side’, it would be a flat Earth fanatic rather than another scientist.
    That may have been only partly their fault. FEFs so not have careers which they would endanger by voicing private doubts.
    Which is actually a large part of the problem, that all the scientific research funding is on one side.
    There is a phenomenon of "scientific reticence" on climate change, where climatologists consistently underestimate it.

    https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/scientists-have-been-underestimating-the-pace-of-climate-change/

    Science doesn't have sides, though people who live in a petro-state and have an interest in aviation may well do.
    Or indeed users of those products.
    Absolutely.

    People don't like uncomfortable truths.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    algarkirk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    So. Is the BBC biased politically (forget Huw Edwards) or not and if it is, which way?

    I saw an old mate of mine last night. To the left, shall we say, and he was fuming that eg The Today Programme might as well be an arm of government.

    Whereas from my right-leaning, civilised, thoughtful perspective I think the BBC leans left.

    I dislike the fact that they always have to so maniacally strive for "balance" and "inclusivity" but I understand it also.

    As they say if we're both convinced of our view then perhaps it is therefore doing something right.

    The BBC largely does it's job as a neutral platform. As the literal voice of the establishment it pisses off the left. And as a den of leftie woke liberals it pisses off the right.

    As an example, Laura K seems to wind up a lot of people with her "bias" but so many of the accusations don't stand up to scrutiny. People call others biased when they don't say what they think.

    Where the been has crossed the line has been the imposition of direct Tory party plants to head BBC News, be DG and Chair. Though their malign influence the left alleges is so subtle as to hardly be an issue. Not compared to right wing tabloids anyway.
    There was a very famous media study done by Ben Gurion University in Israel. They took footage of the Gaza strip and a team of students, half Israeli half Palestinian, spend some time crafting an incredibly neutral - solely fact based - story that they claimed was played on television. They asked both Israeli and Palestinian students to opine on which TV channel it was shown, whether it was biased, how it was biased, etc.

    Everyone thought the story was biased. Israelis thought it pro-Palestinian. Palestinians thought it pro-Israeli. Because it didn't show the narrative they wanted (their side good, the other bad), it was inherently considered to be the work of political opponents.

    It turns out humans don't really want impartiality; what they want is their existing preconceptions to be reinforced.
    If you were wanting to do a study on how attempts at factual unbiased reporting is perceived by different groups it would be hard to imagine a worse or less representative way of doing it than in Israel dealing with issues in Gaza.

    Two more things; is there really such a thing as a 'fact' as opposed to value laden facts in any sort of reporting.

    Secondly, what would unbiased reporting of the Ukraine/Russia war be like, and does anyone try?
    My father (professional philosopher) found teaching on the nature of truth, impartiality etc to be excellent fun.

    The lightbulb moments when people realise they aren’t Platonic Philosopher Kings - just human, with biases….

    One of the amusements of the Title 9 stuff in the US, was the invention of “courts” by the universities. Which became a speed run through the history of legal procedure and defendants rights. Highlights included -

    - One member of a panel declaring that everyone brought before the panel was guilty, because they wouldn’t have be accused unless guilty
    - one Professor said he couldn’t be biased because he was a Professor
    - A university had a form letter to send to all witnesses who gave evidence on behalf of someone accused of title 9 violations. The form letter stated that if they have evidence for the defence, that *when* the accused was convicted, they would be “convicted” as well and thrown out of the university.
    And speaking of Plato, I love people who revere 5th century Athens as a shining beacon of democracy, for the many not the few, and all that. Standard democratic tactic: party A: we propose a law that anyone adding fruit to cheesy flatbreads should be put to death. Party B: we oppose this motion. Party A: amendment: we propose a law that anyone adding fruit to cheesy flatbreads, and all those opposing this motion, should be put to death. And this was legitimate and happened: see Pericles' decree on ships in 431 and the trial after Arginusae in 406. Bunch of savages.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    A
    Miklosvar said:

    algarkirk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    So. Is the BBC biased politically (forget Huw Edwards) or not and if it is, which way?

    I saw an old mate of mine last night. To the left, shall we say, and he was fuming that eg The Today Programme might as well be an arm of government.

    Whereas from my right-leaning, civilised, thoughtful perspective I think the BBC leans left.

    I dislike the fact that they always have to so maniacally strive for "balance" and "inclusivity" but I understand it also.

    As they say if we're both convinced of our view then perhaps it is therefore doing something right.

    The BBC largely does it's job as a neutral platform. As the literal voice of the establishment it pisses off the left. And as a den of leftie woke liberals it pisses off the right.

    As an example, Laura K seems to wind up a lot of people with her "bias" but so many of the accusations don't stand up to scrutiny. People call others biased when they don't say what they think.

    Where the been has crossed the line has been the imposition of direct Tory party plants to head BBC News, be DG and Chair. Though their malign influence the left alleges is so subtle as to hardly be an issue. Not compared to right wing tabloids anyway.
    There was a very famous media study done by Ben Gurion University in Israel. They took footage of the Gaza strip and a team of students, half Israeli half Palestinian, spend some time crafting an incredibly neutral - solely fact based - story that they claimed was played on television. They asked both Israeli and Palestinian students to opine on which TV channel it was shown, whether it was biased, how it was biased, etc.

    Everyone thought the story was biased. Israelis thought it pro-Palestinian. Palestinians thought it pro-Israeli. Because it didn't show the narrative they wanted (their side good, the other bad), it was inherently considered to be the work of political opponents.

    It turns out humans don't really want impartiality; what they want is their existing preconceptions to be reinforced.
    If you were wanting to do a study on how attempts at factual unbiased reporting is perceived by different groups it would be hard to imagine a worse or less representative way of doing it than in Israel dealing with issues in Gaza.

    Two more things; is there really such a thing as a 'fact' as opposed to value laden facts in any sort of reporting.

    Secondly, what would unbiased reporting of the Ukraine/Russia war be like, and does anyone try?
    My father (professional philosopher) found teaching on the nature of truth, impartiality etc to be excellent fun.

    The lightbulb moments when people realise they aren’t Platonic Philosopher Kings - just human, with biases….

    One of the amusements of the Title 9 stuff in the US, was the invention of “courts” by the universities. Which became a speed run through the history of legal procedure and defendants rights. Highlights included -

    - One member of a panel declaring that everyone brought before the panel was guilty, because they wouldn’t have be accused unless guilty
    - one Professor said he couldn’t be biased because he was a Professor
    - A university had a form letter to send to all witnesses who gave evidence on behalf of someone accused of title 9 violations. The form letter stated that if they have evidence for the defence, that *when* the accused was convicted, they would be “convicted” as well and thrown out of the university.
    And speaking of Plato, I love people who revere 5th century Athens as a shining beacon of democracy, for the many not the few, and all that. Standard democratic tactic: party A: we propose a law that anyone adding fruit to cheesy flatbreads should be put to death. Party B: we oppose this motion. Party A: amendment: we propose a law that anyone adding fruit to cheesy flatbreads, and all those opposing this motion, should be put to death. And this was legitimate and happened: see Pericles' decree on ships in 431 and the trial after Arginusae in 406. Bunch of savages.
    Yup

    Add in those who think that the Roman Senate was something to do with democracy. It wasn’t. Membership was by wealth only.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    HYUFD said:

    @alexwickham
    NEW:

    '— Rachel Reeves sends personal letters to Tory donors inviting them to 1-1 breakfasts

    — ramping up of Labour outreach to biz/City with direct pitch to Tory backers

    — one donor who got an invite open to meeting. Another already met Labour officials'
    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1679748602678091777?s=20

    This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a croissant.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,794

    viewcode said:

    Origin of the term "podule"

    "Not the Nine O'Clock News" episode 1980
    https://youtu.be/ScNu_Sbx84Q?t=412

    I only know of 'podule' wrt Acorn computers - a term for hardware expansion cards. Is there another meaning?
    The word "podule" came up when @Leon used it when describing a holiday he took. I contend that this places him, as it's a term usually used by British fifty-sixty somethings.

    The word "podule" is a mangling of the words "pod" and "module". IIUC it was first used in that Not The Nine OClock episode in 1980 and then repurposed by the ARM team in the early 80's for their thing. Being young British computer nerds in the 1980s they would have been busily quoting sketches as they worked.

    https://youtu.be/ScNu_Sbx84Q?t=412
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    A

    Miklosvar said:

    algarkirk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    So. Is the BBC biased politically (forget Huw Edwards) or not and if it is, which way?

    I saw an old mate of mine last night. To the left, shall we say, and he was fuming that eg The Today Programme might as well be an arm of government.

    Whereas from my right-leaning, civilised, thoughtful perspective I think the BBC leans left.

    I dislike the fact that they always have to so maniacally strive for "balance" and "inclusivity" but I understand it also.

    As they say if we're both convinced of our view then perhaps it is therefore doing something right.

    The BBC largely does it's job as a neutral platform. As the literal voice of the establishment it pisses off the left. And as a den of leftie woke liberals it pisses off the right.

    As an example, Laura K seems to wind up a lot of people with her "bias" but so many of the accusations don't stand up to scrutiny. People call others biased when they don't say what they think.

    Where the been has crossed the line has been the imposition of direct Tory party plants to head BBC News, be DG and Chair. Though their malign influence the left alleges is so subtle as to hardly be an issue. Not compared to right wing tabloids anyway.
    There was a very famous media study done by Ben Gurion University in Israel. They took footage of the Gaza strip and a team of students, half Israeli half Palestinian, spend some time crafting an incredibly neutral - solely fact based - story that they claimed was played on television. They asked both Israeli and Palestinian students to opine on which TV channel it was shown, whether it was biased, how it was biased, etc.

    Everyone thought the story was biased. Israelis thought it pro-Palestinian. Palestinians thought it pro-Israeli. Because it didn't show the narrative they wanted (their side good, the other bad), it was inherently considered to be the work of political opponents.

    It turns out humans don't really want impartiality; what they want is their existing preconceptions to be reinforced.
    If you were wanting to do a study on how attempts at factual unbiased reporting is perceived by different groups it would be hard to imagine a worse or less representative way of doing it than in Israel dealing with issues in Gaza.

    Two more things; is there really such a thing as a 'fact' as opposed to value laden facts in any sort of reporting.

    Secondly, what would unbiased reporting of the Ukraine/Russia war be like, and does anyone try?
    My father (professional philosopher) found teaching on the nature of truth, impartiality etc to be excellent fun.

    The lightbulb moments when people realise they aren’t Platonic Philosopher Kings - just human, with biases….

    One of the amusements of the Title 9 stuff in the US, was the invention of “courts” by the universities. Which became a speed run through the history of legal procedure and defendants rights. Highlights included -

    - One member of a panel declaring that everyone brought before the panel was guilty, because they wouldn’t have be accused unless guilty
    - one Professor said he couldn’t be biased because he was a Professor
    - A university had a form letter to send to all witnesses who gave evidence on behalf of someone accused of title 9 violations. The form letter stated that if they have evidence for the defence, that *when* the accused was convicted, they would be “convicted” as well and thrown out of the university.
    And speaking of Plato, I love people who revere 5th century Athens as a shining beacon of democracy, for the many not the few, and all that. Standard democratic tactic: party A: we propose a law that anyone adding fruit to cheesy flatbreads should be put to death. Party B: we oppose this motion. Party A: amendment: we propose a law that anyone adding fruit to cheesy flatbreads, and all those opposing this motion, should be put to death. And this was legitimate and happened: see Pericles' decree on ships in 431 and the trial after Arginusae in 406. Bunch of savages.
    Yup

    Add in those who think that the Roman Senate was something to do with democracy. It wasn’t. Membership was by wealth only.
    They were an early example of a Network Rail announcement.

    Senate, Say It, Sorted.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    So. Is the BBC biased politically (forget Huw Edwards) or not and if it is, which way?

    I saw an old mate of mine last night. To the left, shall we say, and he was fuming that eg The Today Programme might as well be an arm of government.

    Whereas from my right-leaning, civilised, thoughtful perspective I think the BBC leans left.

    I dislike the fact that they always have to so maniacally strive for "balance" and "inclusivity" but I understand it also.

    As they say if we're both convinced of our view then perhaps it is therefore doing something right.

    Although annoying both left and right does not mean that the BBC is balanced.

    FWIW I think the BBC tries very hard to be balanced on most things (not all - there is now no hint of skepticism left when reporting climate science, for instance, when some of the more out there claims/predictions ought to be at best queried). It does, however, tend to skew urban, metropolitan. I don't think it has a clue about the countryside and rural affairs, as shown by Countryfile, which is a programme about the countryside made by city dwellers, for city dwellers.
    Yes there's plenty wrong with it.

    And as for climate, my point to my friend was that they would never dare have someone from "the other side" to argue a different position on climate change.
    When they ever did get someone from ‘the other side’, it would be a flat Earth fanatic rather than another scientist.
    That may have been only partly their fault. FEFs so not have careers which they would endanger by voicing private doubts.
    Which is actually a large part of the problem, that all the scientific research funding is on one side.
    There is a phenomenon of "scientific reticence" on climate change, where climatologists consistently underestimate it.

    https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/scientists-have-been-underestimating-the-pace-of-climate-change/

    Science doesn't have sides, though people who live in a petro-state and have an interest in aviation may well do.
    Or indeed users of those products.
    Absolutely.

    People don't like uncomfortable truths.
    When I travel abroad, I put my bicycle in a sustainable coracle and paddle across the channel. Jolly lonely up here on the moral high ground.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Ok, pub question to annoy everyone.

    In what way was Lloyd George the last Liberal to hold government office before Nick Clegg in 2010?

    Is that a trick question because Nick Clegg is a Tory? Come to think of it, so was Lloyd George.
    The irony is, your second sentence is close to the truth - probably closer than you realise.
    Which Lloyd George? The Home Secretary to Winston Churchill?
    We have a winner!

    And even if you believe that he was a Conservative in 1954 (he always described himself as a Liberal) he was also Minister for Fuel and Power from 1942-45 and the only minister holding the Liberal whip in Churchill's wartime coalition not to lose his seat in 1945.
    According to Wikipedia... in the 1951 election Gwilym described himself as a National Liberal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcastle_upon_Tyne_North_(UK_Parliament_constituency) but on the National Liberal pages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Liberal_Party_(UK,_1931) it states that he actually never joined the National Liberal party.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    .
    ydoethur said:

    A

    Miklosvar said:

    algarkirk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    So. Is the BBC biased politically (forget Huw Edwards) or not and if it is, which way?

    I saw an old mate of mine last night. To the left, shall we say, and he was fuming that eg The Today Programme might as well be an arm of government.

    Whereas from my right-leaning, civilised, thoughtful perspective I think the BBC leans left.

    I dislike the fact that they always have to so maniacally strive for "balance" and "inclusivity" but I understand it also.

    As they say if we're both convinced of our view then perhaps it is therefore doing something right.

    The BBC largely does it's job as a neutral platform. As the literal voice of the establishment it pisses off the left. And as a den of leftie woke liberals it pisses off the right.

    As an example, Laura K seems to wind up a lot of people with her "bias" but so many of the accusations don't stand up to scrutiny. People call others biased when they don't say what they think.

    Where the been has crossed the line has been the imposition of direct Tory party plants to head BBC News, be DG and Chair. Though their malign influence the left alleges is so subtle as to hardly be an issue. Not compared to right wing tabloids anyway.
    There was a very famous media study done by Ben Gurion University in Israel. They took footage of the Gaza strip and a team of students, half Israeli half Palestinian, spend some time crafting an incredibly neutral - solely fact based - story that they claimed was played on television. They asked both Israeli and Palestinian students to opine on which TV channel it was shown, whether it was biased, how it was biased, etc.

    Everyone thought the story was biased. Israelis thought it pro-Palestinian. Palestinians thought it pro-Israeli. Because it didn't show the narrative they wanted (their side good, the other bad), it was inherently considered to be the work of political opponents.

    It turns out humans don't really want impartiality; what they want is their existing preconceptions to be reinforced.
    If you were wanting to do a study on how attempts at factual unbiased reporting is perceived by different groups it would be hard to imagine a worse or less representative way of doing it than in Israel dealing with issues in Gaza.

    Two more things; is there really such a thing as a 'fact' as opposed to value laden facts in any sort of reporting.

    Secondly, what would unbiased reporting of the Ukraine/Russia war be like, and does anyone try?
    My father (professional philosopher) found teaching on the nature of truth, impartiality etc to be excellent fun.

    The lightbulb moments when people realise they aren’t Platonic Philosopher Kings - just human, with biases….

    One of the amusements of the Title 9 stuff in the US, was the invention of “courts” by the universities. Which became a speed run through the history of legal procedure and defendants rights. Highlights included -

    - One member of a panel declaring that everyone brought before the panel was guilty, because they wouldn’t have be accused unless guilty
    - one Professor said he couldn’t be biased because he was a Professor
    - A university had a form letter to send to all witnesses who gave evidence on behalf of someone accused of title 9 violations. The form letter stated that if they have evidence for the defence, that *when* the accused was convicted, they would be “convicted” as well and thrown out of the university.
    And speaking of Plato, I love people who revere 5th century Athens as a shining beacon of democracy, for the many not the few, and all that. Standard democratic tactic: party A: we propose a law that anyone adding fruit to cheesy flatbreads should be put to death. Party B: we oppose this motion. Party A: amendment: we propose a law that anyone adding fruit to cheesy flatbreads, and all those opposing this motion, should be put to death. And this was legitimate and happened: see Pericles' decree on ships in 431 and the trial after Arginusae in 406. Bunch of savages.
    Yup

    Add in those who think that the Roman Senate was something to do with democracy. It wasn’t. Membership was by wealth only.
    They were an early example of a Network Rail announcement.

    Senate, Say It, Sorted.
    Or as Julius C put it
    Senate, seedy, sneaky.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Origin of the term "podule"

    "Not the Nine O'Clock News" episode 1980
    https://youtu.be/ScNu_Sbx84Q?t=412

    I only know of 'podule' wrt Acorn computers - a term for hardware expansion cards. Is there another meaning?
    The word "podule" came up when @Leon used it when describing a holiday he took. I contend that this places him, as it's a term usually used by British fifty-sixty somethings.

    The word "podule" is a mangling of the words "pod" and "module". IIUC it was first used in that Not The Nine OClock episode in 1980 and then repurposed by the ARM team in the early 80's for their thing. Being young British computer nerds in the 1980s they would have been busily quoting sketches as they worked.

    https://youtu.be/ScNu_Sbx84Q?t=412
    The language of that planet was not the same as ours. They said 'different to...'
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    India's moon rocket about to launch:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-asia-india-66199759
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,794
    I understand that some of you like playing with their organs. Please find below a rather breathless and worryingly overenthusiastic fifteen-minute video essay on how the organ is the future of music.

    "Why The Organ Is The Future of Music": July 10, 2023, by "Inside the Score"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y3s0bg0l0c

    It's a whole new world of overdetailed insanity, but some of you may like it.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,317
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/364821580_Climate_Disruption_Caused_by_a_Decline_in_Marine_Biodiversity_and_Pollution

    I have just been reading this paper from the 'International journal of Environment and Climate Change'. It suggests that achieving net zero may only be part of the picture in avoiding catastrophic climate change, and that there is a bigger problem with a decline in marine biodiversity. The writers appear to be connected to Edinburgh University.
    The paper concludes with the following 'recommendations':

    "We must continue with carbon mitigation, but as a matter of urgency, we must eliminate the dumping of all toxic forever lipophilic chemicals, as well as plastic and black carbon soot, into the environment. All wastewaters must be treated, we must not pollute our environment, we must DO NO HARM to nature on land and to marine life in the Oceans. We must start doing some GOOD and transition from destructive farming and unsustainable fishing practices to rewilding and regenerate ecosystems on land and in the oceans. We should also give serious consideration to changing sea water chemistry by increasing calcium and alkalinity concentrations, which we consider to be a no-risk strategy.."

    I go along with the consensus of opinion about climate change and what we need to do about it. But I find the subject very difficult because everything I read seems to be driven by a 'we need to this now and anyone who disagrees is evil' activism, exemplified by the quote above. If the science is being driven by activism and a politicised narrative of right and wrong, then it seems less likely that we will ultimately know what interventions are good and what are harmful, which can only occur when there is free enquiry unconstrained by politics.


  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    edited July 2023

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Ok, pub question to annoy everyone.

    In what way was Lloyd George the last Liberal to hold government office before Nick Clegg in 2010?

    Is that a trick question because Nick Clegg is a Tory? Come to think of it, so was Lloyd George.
    The irony is, your second sentence is close to the truth - probably closer than you realise.
    Which Lloyd George? The Home Secretary to Winston Churchill?
    We have a winner!

    And even if you believe that he was a Conservative in 1954 (he always described himself as a Liberal) he was also Minister for Fuel and Power from 1942-45 and the only minister holding the Liberal whip in Churchill's wartime coalition not to lose his seat in 1945.
    According to Wikipedia... in the 1951 election Gwilym described himself as a National Liberal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcastle_upon_Tyne_North_(UK_Parliament_constituency) but on the National Liberal pages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Liberal_Party_(UK,_1931) it states that he actually never joined the National Liberal party.

    He did not describe himself as a 'National Liberal.' Wikipedia does because it's edited by idiots. In just the same way as it says Richard III didn't kill his nephews, Catherine Nixey's work is dissed only by Christians, Harry Truman was a millionaire or periodically claims that most historians think Jesus never existed.

    Gwilym Lloyd George called himself 'a Liberal supporting the National Government.' In 1951 he was elected in Newcastle upon Tyne North as a Liberal but without the support of the Liberal party, and ironically opposed by a Conservative who had been disowned by the national Conservative party. In various indices of MPs of the time he was described as a 'Liberal and Conservative' but he wouldn't have recognised that label.

    This was somewhat more complicated as until 1970 party affiliation wasn't on the ballot paper so could be rather more fluid than it is now.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,141
    algarkirk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    So. Is the BBC biased politically (forget Huw Edwards) or not and if it is, which way?

    I saw an old mate of mine last night. To the left, shall we say, and he was fuming that eg The Today Programme might as well be an arm of government.

    Whereas from my right-leaning, civilised, thoughtful perspective I think the BBC leans left.

    I dislike the fact that they always have to so maniacally strive for "balance" and "inclusivity" but I understand it also.

    As they say if we're both convinced of our view then perhaps it is therefore doing something right.

    The BBC largely does it's job as a neutral platform. As the literal voice of the establishment it pisses off the left. And as a den of leftie woke liberals it pisses off the right.

    As an example, Laura K seems to wind up a lot of people with her "bias" but so many of the accusations don't stand up to scrutiny. People call others biased when they don't say what they think.

    Where the been has crossed the line has been the imposition of direct Tory party plants to head BBC News, be DG and Chair. Though their malign influence the left alleges is so subtle as to hardly be an issue. Not compared to right wing tabloids anyway.
    There was a very famous media study done by Ben Gurion University in Israel. They took footage of the Gaza strip and a team of students, half Israeli half Palestinian, spend some time crafting an incredibly neutral - solely fact based - story that they claimed was played on television. They asked both Israeli and Palestinian students to opine on which TV channel it was shown, whether it was biased, how it was biased, etc.

    Everyone thought the story was biased. Israelis thought it pro-Palestinian. Palestinians thought it pro-Israeli. Because it didn't show the narrative they wanted (their side good, the other bad), it was inherently considered to be the work of political opponents.

    It turns out humans don't really want impartiality; what they want is their existing preconceptions to be reinforced.
    If you were wanting to do a study on how attempts at factual unbiased reporting is perceived by different groups it would be hard to imagine a worse or less representative way of doing it than in Israel dealing with issues in Gaza.

    Two more things; is there really such a thing as a 'fact' as opposed to value laden facts in any sort of reporting.

    Secondly, what would unbiased reporting of the Ukraine/Russia war be like, and does anyone try?
    There certainly are historical facts. Napoleon invaded Spain in 1808. The Holocaust happened. The UK decalared war on Germany on 3rd September 1939.

    There are of course, any number of historical opinions, for which better or worse arguments can be put forward.

    My understanding that scientists will say that relatively few things are facts, and that what laymen would call facts are are usually described as theories by scientists. Theory, being something that is almost certainly true.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Origin of the term "podule"

    "Not the Nine O'Clock News" episode 1980
    https://youtu.be/ScNu_Sbx84Q?t=412

    I only know of 'podule' wrt Acorn computers - a term for hardware expansion cards. Is there another meaning?
    The word "podule" came up when @Leon used it when describing a holiday he took. I contend that this places him, as it's a term usually used by British fifty-sixty somethings.

    The word "podule" is a mangling of the words "pod" and "module". IIUC it was first used in that Not The Nine OClock episode in 1980 and then repurposed by the ARM team in the early 80's for their thing. Being young British computer nerds in the 1980s they would have been busily quoting sketches as they worked.

    https://youtu.be/ScNu_Sbx84Q?t=412
    Ah, thanks. From memory, and it might be wrong, we didn't use 'pod' internally - but I was there near the end, not the beginning. I thought it meant 'Peripheral Module', as opposed to 'Module', which was the OS's software organisation. I do recall someone using 'Sodule' for 'Software module' - although he meant Sod-you-all... ;)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    Blooming heck, that thing accelerates fast.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,141
    Miklosvar said:

    algarkirk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    So. Is the BBC biased politically (forget Huw Edwards) or not and if it is, which way?

    I saw an old mate of mine last night. To the left, shall we say, and he was fuming that eg The Today Programme might as well be an arm of government.

    Whereas from my right-leaning, civilised, thoughtful perspective I think the BBC leans left.

    I dislike the fact that they always have to so maniacally strive for "balance" and "inclusivity" but I understand it also.

    As they say if we're both convinced of our view then perhaps it is therefore doing something right.

    The BBC largely does it's job as a neutral platform. As the literal voice of the establishment it pisses off the left. And as a den of leftie woke liberals it pisses off the right.

    As an example, Laura K seems to wind up a lot of people with her "bias" but so many of the accusations don't stand up to scrutiny. People call others biased when they don't say what they think.

    Where the been has crossed the line has been the imposition of direct Tory party plants to head BBC News, be DG and Chair. Though their malign influence the left alleges is so subtle as to hardly be an issue. Not compared to right wing tabloids anyway.
    There was a very famous media study done by Ben Gurion University in Israel. They took footage of the Gaza strip and a team of students, half Israeli half Palestinian, spend some time crafting an incredibly neutral - solely fact based - story that they claimed was played on television. They asked both Israeli and Palestinian students to opine on which TV channel it was shown, whether it was biased, how it was biased, etc.

    Everyone thought the story was biased. Israelis thought it pro-Palestinian. Palestinians thought it pro-Israeli. Because it didn't show the narrative they wanted (their side good, the other bad), it was inherently considered to be the work of political opponents.

    It turns out humans don't really want impartiality; what they want is their existing preconceptions to be reinforced.
    If you were wanting to do a study on how attempts at factual unbiased reporting is perceived by different groups it would be hard to imagine a worse or less representative way of doing it than in Israel dealing with issues in Gaza.

    Two more things; is there really such a thing as a 'fact' as opposed to value laden facts in any sort of reporting.

    Secondly, what would unbiased reporting of the Ukraine/Russia war be like, and does anyone try?
    My father (professional philosopher) found teaching on the nature of truth, impartiality etc to be excellent fun.

    The lightbulb moments when people realise they aren’t Platonic Philosopher Kings - just human, with biases….

    One of the amusements of the Title 9 stuff in the US, was the invention of “courts” by the universities. Which became a speed run through the history of legal procedure and defendants rights. Highlights included -

    - One member of a panel declaring that everyone brought before the panel was guilty, because they wouldn’t have be accused unless guilty
    - one Professor said he couldn’t be biased because he was a Professor
    - A university had a form letter to send to all witnesses who gave evidence on behalf of someone accused of title 9 violations. The form letter stated that if they have evidence for the defence, that *when* the accused was convicted, they would be “convicted” as well and thrown out of the university.
    And speaking of Plato, I love people who revere 5th century Athens as a shining beacon of democracy, for the many not the few, and all that. Standard democratic tactic: party A: we propose a law that anyone adding fruit to cheesy flatbreads should be put to death. Party B: we oppose this motion. Party A: amendment: we propose a law that anyone adding fruit to cheesy flatbreads, and all those opposing this motion, should be put to death. And this was legitimate and happened: see Pericles' decree on ships in 431 and the trial after Arginusae in 406. Bunch of savages.
    The Athenians did a lot to discredit the entire notion of democracy, for centuries to come.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Mr. F, the vote to execute almost the entire military leadership (except the smartest ones who refused to go home) after they won a naval victory for failing to properly attend to the dead amid a storm was not necessarily democratic Athens' finest hour.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147

    Have we done this?


    I used to do it in the early 2000's - often at the parents request,,!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    .
    Sean_F said:

    algarkirk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    So. Is the BBC biased politically (forget Huw Edwards) or not and if it is, which way?

    I saw an old mate of mine last night. To the left, shall we say, and he was fuming that eg The Today Programme might as well be an arm of government.

    Whereas from my right-leaning, civilised, thoughtful perspective I think the BBC leans left.

    I dislike the fact that they always have to so maniacally strive for "balance" and "inclusivity" but I understand it also.

    As they say if we're both convinced of our view then perhaps it is therefore doing something right.

    The BBC largely does it's job as a neutral platform. As the literal voice of the establishment it pisses off the left. And as a den of leftie woke liberals it pisses off the right.

    As an example, Laura K seems to wind up a lot of people with her "bias" but so many of the accusations don't stand up to scrutiny. People call others biased when they don't say what they think.

    Where the been has crossed the line has been the imposition of direct Tory party plants to head BBC News, be DG and Chair. Though their malign influence the left alleges is so subtle as to hardly be an issue. Not compared to right wing tabloids anyway.
    There was a very famous media study done by Ben Gurion University in Israel. They took footage of the Gaza strip and a team of students, half Israeli half Palestinian, spend some time crafting an incredibly neutral - solely fact based - story that they claimed was played on television. They asked both Israeli and Palestinian students to opine on which TV channel it was shown, whether it was biased, how it was biased, etc.

    Everyone thought the story was biased. Israelis thought it pro-Palestinian. Palestinians thought it pro-Israeli. Because it didn't show the narrative they wanted (their side good, the other bad), it was inherently considered to be the work of political opponents.

    It turns out humans don't really want impartiality; what they want is their existing preconceptions to be reinforced.
    If you were wanting to do a study on how attempts at factual unbiased reporting is perceived by different groups it would be hard to imagine a worse or less representative way of doing it than in Israel dealing with issues in Gaza.

    Two more things; is there really such a thing as a 'fact' as opposed to value laden facts in any sort of reporting.

    Secondly, what would unbiased reporting of the Ukraine/Russia war be like, and does anyone try?
    There certainly are historical facts. Napoleon invaded Spain in 1808. The Holocaust happened. The UK decalared war on Germany on 3rd September 1939.

    There are of course, any number of historical opinions, for which better or worse arguments can be put forward.

    My understanding that scientists will say that relatively few things are facts, and that what laymen would call facts are are usually described as theories by scientists. Theory, being something that is almost certainly true.
    Theory ranges from near certainty to wildly improbable.
    The current rough consensus on climate change is closer to the former than the latter.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    darkage said:

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/364821580_Climate_Disruption_Caused_by_a_Decline_in_Marine_Biodiversity_and_Pollution

    I have just been reading this paper from the 'International journal of Environment and Climate Change'. It suggests that achieving net zero may only be part of the picture in avoiding catastrophic climate change, and that there is a bigger problem with a decline in marine biodiversity. The writers appear to be connected to Edinburgh University.
    The paper concludes with the following 'recommendations':

    "We must continue with carbon mitigation, but as a matter of urgency, we must eliminate the dumping of all toxic forever lipophilic chemicals, as well as plastic and black carbon soot, into the environment. All wastewaters must be treated, we must not pollute our environment, we must DO NO HARM to nature on land and to marine life in the Oceans. We must start doing some GOOD and transition from destructive farming and unsustainable fishing practices to rewilding and regenerate ecosystems on land and in the oceans. We should also give serious consideration to changing sea water chemistry by increasing calcium and alkalinity concentrations, which we consider to be a no-risk strategy.."

    I go along with the consensus of opinion about climate change and what we need to do about it. But I find the subject very difficult because everything I read seems to be driven by a 'we need to this now and anyone who disagrees is evil' activism, exemplified by the quote above. If the science is being driven by activism and a politicised narrative of right and wrong, then it seems less likely that we will ultimately know what interventions are good and what are harmful, which can only occur when there is free enquiry unconstrained by politics.

    They're obviously right. It's like driving a car without maintaining it. You are bound to have a catastrophic failure whether it's the brakes or the wheel bearings or the lub or the cooling system which goes first. Overfocusing on climate change is like paying no attention to any of your readouts except the fuel gauge. We are doomed.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,609
    Sandpit said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    So. Is the BBC biased politically (forget Huw Edwards) or not and if it is, which way?

    I saw an old mate of mine last night. To the left, shall we say, and he was fuming that eg The Today Programme might as well be an arm of government.

    Whereas from my right-leaning, civilised, thoughtful perspective I think the BBC leans left.

    I dislike the fact that they always have to so maniacally strive for "balance" and "inclusivity" but I understand it also.

    As they say if we're both convinced of our view then perhaps it is therefore doing something right.

    Although annoying both left and right does not mean that the BBC is balanced.

    FWIW I think the BBC tries very hard to be balanced on most things (not all - there is now no hint of skepticism left when reporting climate science, for instance, when some of the more out there claims/predictions ought to be at best queried). It does, however, tend to skew urban, metropolitan. I don't think it has a clue about the countryside and rural affairs, as shown by Countryfile, which is a programme about the countryside made by city dwellers, for city dwellers.
    Yes there's plenty wrong with it.

    And as for climate, my point to my friend was that they would never dare have someone from "the other side" to argue a different position on climate change.
    When they ever did get someone from ‘the other side’, it would be a flat Earth fanatic rather than another scientist.
    That may have been only partly their fault. FEFs so not have careers which they would endanger by voicing private doubts.
    Which is actually a large part of the problem, that all the scientific research funding is on one side.
    The scientific research funding follows the scientific evidence.

    The vested interest funding, well there's been plenty of that for climate 'sceptics'. And probably much more lucrative for those involved.

    (I do find the idea of funding bias bizarre. It's in no government's interest to fund only one side of climate science, if there were really two sides. Climate science as it stands is a massive headache for governments - it means taxing/regulating things that people like, in really unpopular areas. There's a massive incentive for governments to fund any science that would question the IPCC conclusions - making it all go away would solve a whole load of political problems. Unfortunately, science doesn't work like that - you can't just get the answers you want because if you do other people are going to point out what you've done and it's easy* for other groups to check)

    *in most areas. Far less so in my field of epidemiology where we cannot share or publish the patient-level data for others to verify, due to entirely legitimate data protection concerns. Other groups could request the same data, but I'm not sure you'd get that far on public interest grounds to simply verify pre-existing research. We need more like openSAFELY where anyone can run their own code to check conclusions. This would be possible if e.g. NHS Digital had a service to hold copies of supplied data and run, on demand (at low fee) code on it and provide the results (there would still be a need to ensure no sensitive disclosure in analysis results, which is probably why this hasn't happened).
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,794
    Yup, it launched successfully

    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/fZUvCTPhafU

    This is my periodic reminder that the UK space programme currently consists of a Virgin plane that doesn't work and that Top Gear Robin Reliant.

    (punches wall in irritation)

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,302
    felix said:

    Have we done this?


    I used to do it in the early 2000's - often at the parents request,,!
    Just how big was your vehicle?
  • Re the BBC and science: This is probably the most dumbed down "explanation" of a fusion experiment that I've ever read:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-66186870
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    edited July 2023
    Sean_F said:

    algarkirk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    So. Is the BBC biased politically (forget Huw Edwards) or not and if it is, which way?

    I saw an old mate of mine last night. To the left, shall we say, and he was fuming that eg The Today Programme might as well be an arm of government.

    Whereas from my right-leaning, civilised, thoughtful perspective I think the BBC leans left.

    I dislike the fact that they always have to so maniacally strive for "balance" and "inclusivity" but I understand it also.

    As they say if we're both convinced of our view then perhaps it is therefore doing something right.

    The BBC largely does it's job as a neutral platform. As the literal voice of the establishment it pisses off the left. And as a den of leftie woke liberals it pisses off the right.

    As an example, Laura K seems to wind up a lot of people with her "bias" but so many of the accusations don't stand up to scrutiny. People call others biased when they don't say what they think.

    Where the been has crossed the line has been the imposition of direct Tory party plants to head BBC News, be DG and Chair. Though their malign influence the left alleges is so subtle as to hardly be an issue. Not compared to right wing tabloids anyway.
    There was a very famous media study done by Ben Gurion University in Israel. They took footage of the Gaza strip and a team of students, half Israeli half Palestinian, spend some time crafting an incredibly neutral - solely fact based - story that they claimed was played on television. They asked both Israeli and Palestinian students to opine on which TV channel it was shown, whether it was biased, how it was biased, etc.

    Everyone thought the story was biased. Israelis thought it pro-Palestinian. Palestinians thought it pro-Israeli. Because it didn't show the narrative they wanted (their side good, the other bad), it was inherently considered to be the work of political opponents.

    It turns out humans don't really want impartiality; what they want is their existing preconceptions to be reinforced.
    If you were wanting to do a study on how attempts at factual unbiased reporting is perceived by different groups it would be hard to imagine a worse or less representative way of doing it than in Israel dealing with issues in Gaza.

    Two more things; is there really such a thing as a 'fact' as opposed to value laden facts in any sort of reporting.

    Secondly, what would unbiased reporting of the Ukraine/Russia war be like, and does anyone try?
    There certainly are historical facts. Napoleon invaded Spain in 1808. The Holocaust happened. The UK decalared war on Germany on 3rd September 1939.

    There are of course, any number of historical opinions, for which better or worse arguments can be put forward.

    My understanding that scientists will say that relatively few things are facts, and that what laymen would call facts are are usually described as theories by scientists. Theory, being something that is almost certainly true.
    There can always be arguments even about facts. Some of them based on better grounds than others.

    For example, did Napoleon invade Spain in 1808, when he arrived in person to try and sort out the mess, or in 1807 when French armies began campaigning there on his orders?

    On September 3rd, did Britain declare war or did it accept a state of war? Given Neville Chamberlain's rather strange broadcast on the subject you could argue it just sort of happened.

    Even with the Holocaust, you can find endless arguments about whether it the victims of (say) Aktion T4 should be included in it or not.

    Similarly, Richard III. He usurped the throne in July 1483, and later that same summer had his nephews (the rightful king and his heir) murdered. But you will always find people who say maybe he didn't really usurp the throne because it's possible Edward IV was married to somebody else and therefore Edward V wasn't really the king, and perhaps somebody else killed Edward V and the Duke of York.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,609
    felix said:

    Have we done this?


    I used to do it in the early 2000's - often at the parents request,,!
    I'm getting Ferris Bueller vibes here!
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    Mr. F, the vote to execute almost the entire military leadership (except the smartest ones who refused to go home) after they won a naval victory for failing to properly attend to the dead amid a storm was not necessarily democratic Athens' finest hour.

    Lovely irony, though, that 99% of those who go misty eyed when fraudulent prime ministers quote the praise of democracy in the funeral oration by Pericles the elder, are unaware that one of the generals executed in 406 was Pericles the younger.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    felix said:

    Have we done this?


    I used to do it in the early 2000's - often at the parents request,,!
    Well, I suppose you had to do something with your time when you weren't doing any work.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800
    Morning all :)

    The morning after the night before in Newham politics and two fascinating results to chew over.

    Let's start with my home patch, Wall End, I predicted Labour would win big on a small turnout though that wasn't exactly rocket science. Labour's candidate scraped home with 61% of the vote with the Conservatives on 27%, the Liberal Democrats nicked third off the Greens with Reform last.

    Compating this result to 2022 is complicated by the presence last year of Swarup Choudhury, an ally of Mirza (of whom more anon) who polled 957 votes but was the lone candidate in a 3-member Ward and enveryone had three votes so from where did Choudhury draw his votes? Did people just vote for him and for no one else or was there a vote split between him and other anti-Labour candidates so we had people voting for Choudhury and then for two Conservatives?

    It's also worth noting the top Conservative polled 648 and the bottom 412 which is a huge difference.

    Going back to 2018, Labour beat the Conservatives 78-18 so quite a swing last night but we've seen this before - in May 2021, the next door Ward, East Ham Central, had a by-election where the Conservative won over 30% of the vote - needless to say, come the full set of local elections the following year, normal service was resumed.

    I'll offer a few other random thoughts a bit closer to the edge - the Conservative candidate was the only Hindu among the candidates and this is a strongly Tamil area - he was also a well-known local business man with plenty of contacts so the extent to which this was a personal vote rather than a Conservative vote is worth considering.

    The Conservatives abandoned Boleyn yesterday (as the result suggests) and put all their effort into the seat which explains why from nothing the Ward was full of Conservative workers and leaflets. I'd also argue (and we see this elsewhere) the core Conservative vote comes out and votes or has a good postal operation.

    This might explain the Conservative showing (which, despite @NerysHughes's partisan blethering) wasn't double anything - 739 was probably the core plus some personal support for the candidate.

    Labour can feel fairly content - the fall in actual numbers was slight and turnout can explain most of that.

    The LDs have never stood in the Ward so a distant third was about the best they could have expected. It was a poor result for the Greens but they concentrated their effort in Boleyn while the local Reform candidate, who I though put out the best leaflet, lost ground on 2022.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Origin of the term "podule"

    "Not the Nine O'Clock News" episode 1980
    https://youtu.be/ScNu_Sbx84Q?t=412

    I only know of 'podule' wrt Acorn computers - a term for hardware expansion cards. Is there another meaning?
    The word "podule" came up when @Leon used it when describing a holiday he took. I contend that this places him, as it's a term usually used by British fifty-sixty somethings.

    The word "podule" is a mangling of the words "pod" and "module". IIUC it was first used in that Not The Nine OClock episode in 1980 and then repurposed by the ARM team in the early 80's for their thing. Being young British computer nerds in the 1980s they would have been busily quoting sketches as they worked.

    https://youtu.be/ScNu_Sbx84Q?t=412
    Ah, thanks. From memory, and it might be wrong, we didn't use 'pod' internally - but I was there near the end, not the beginning. I thought it meant 'Peripheral Module', as opposed to 'Module', which was the OS's software organisation. I do recall someone using 'Sodule' for 'Software module' - although he meant Sod-you-all... ;)
    And to take it further down a rabbit hole that will interest no-one, I've just checked the 1991 edition of the Acorn Technical Publications Style Guide, and it says that the use of 'podule' was deprecated, and instead it should be 'expansion card'. Sadly, there is no definition of what it means.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,141
    algarkirk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    So. Is the BBC biased politically (forget Huw Edwards) or not and if it is, which way?

    I saw an old mate of mine last night. To the left, shall we say, and he was fuming that eg The Today Programme might as well be an arm of government.

    Whereas from my right-leaning, civilised, thoughtful perspective I think the BBC leans left.

    I dislike the fact that they always have to so maniacally strive for "balance" and "inclusivity" but I understand it also.

    As they say if we're both convinced of our view then perhaps it is therefore doing something right.

    The BBC largely does it's job as a neutral platform. As the literal voice of the establishment it pisses off the left. And as a den of leftie woke liberals it pisses off the right.

    As an example, Laura K seems to wind up a lot of people with her "bias" but so many of the accusations don't stand up to scrutiny. People call others biased when they don't say what they think.

    Where the been has crossed the line has been the imposition of direct Tory party plants to head BBC News, be DG and Chair. Though their malign influence the left alleges is so subtle as to hardly be an issue. Not compared to right wing tabloids anyway.
    There was a very famous media study done by Ben Gurion University in Israel. They took footage of the Gaza strip and a team of students, half Israeli half Palestinian, spend some time crafting an incredibly neutral - solely fact based - story that they claimed was played on television. They asked both Israeli and Palestinian students to opine on which TV channel it was shown, whether it was biased, how it was biased, etc.

    Everyone thought the story was biased. Israelis thought it pro-Palestinian. Palestinians thought it pro-Israeli. Because it didn't show the narrative they wanted (their side good, the other bad), it was inherently considered to be the work of political opponents.

    It turns out humans don't really want impartiality; what they want is their existing preconceptions to be reinforced.
    If you were wanting to do a study on how attempts at factual unbiased reporting is perceived by different groups it would be hard to imagine a worse or less representative way of doing it than in Israel dealing with issues in Gaza.

    Two more things; is there really such a thing as a 'fact' as opposed to value laden facts in any sort of reporting.

    Secondly, what would unbiased reporting of the Ukraine/Russia war be like, and does anyone try?
    There certainly are historical facts. Napoleon invaded Spain in 1808. The Holocaust happened. The UK decalared war on Germany on 3rd September 1939.

    There are of course, any number of historical opinions, for which better or worse arguments can be put forward.

    My understanding that scientists will say that rela

    Mr. F, the vote to execute almost the entire military leadership (except the smartest ones who refused to go home) after they won a naval victory for failing to properly attend to the dead amid a storm was not necessarily democratic Athens' finest hour.

    Following the end of the war with Persia, I'm hard put to think of anything the Athenian Assembly got right.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,895
    Selebian said:

    felix said:

    Have we done this?


    I used to do it in the early 2000's - often at the parents request,,!
    I'm getting Ferris Bueller vibes here!
    Is Felix Ed Rooney ?

    We should be told !
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,141


    Secondly, what would unbiased reporting of the Ukraine/Russia war be like, and does anyone try?

    There certainly are historical facts. Napoleon invaded Spain in 1808. The Holocaust happened. The UK decalared war on Germany on 3rd September 1939.

    There are of course, any number of historical opinions, for which better or worse arguments can be put forward.

    My understanding that scientists will say that relatively few things are facts, and that what laymen would call facts are are usually described as theories by scientists. Theory, being something that is almost certainly true.There can always be arguments even about facts. Some of them based on better grounds than others.

    For example, did Napoleon invade Spain in 1808, when he arrived in person to try and sort out the mess, or in 1807 when French armies began campaigning there on his orders?

    On September 3rd, did Britain declare war or did it accept a state of war? Given Neville Chamberlain's rather strange broadcast on the subject you could argue it just sort of happened.

    Even with the Holocaust, you can find endless arguments about whether it the victims of (say) Aktion T4 should be included in it or not.

    Similarly, Richard III. He usurped the throne in July 1483, and later that same summer had his nephews (the rightful king and his heir) murdered. But you will always find people who say maybe he didn't really usurp the throne because it's possible Edward IV was married to somebody else and therefore Edward V wasn't really the king, and perhaps somebody else killed Edward V and the Duke of York.

    Well, as you pointed out, there are those who think that Elizabeth Woodville had magical powers, and Lady Margaret Beaufort murdered the Princes in the Tower.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,895
    viewcode said:

    Yup, it launched successfully

    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/fZUvCTPhafU

    This is my periodic reminder that the UK space programme currently consists of a Virgin plane that doesn't work and that Top Gear Robin Reliant.

    (punches wall in irritation)

    Cost was £70 million apparently. I expect £70M wouldn't go as far in any potential space program of ours.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    Latest blasphemy killing highlights Nigeria’s problem with religious extremism
    https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2023/jul/14/latest-blasphemy-killing-highlights-nigerias-problem-with-religious-extremism
    ...Police have promised to bring the perpetrators to justice but made no arrests at the scene. There is no public record of anyone being prosecuted or jailed in Nigeria for killings relating to blasphemy allegations despite estimates suggesting more than 13,200 Nigerians have had died in this way between 2011 and 2021.

    As of 2019, 79 countries have legislation on blasphemy – defined as speech or actions deemed disrespectful towards sacred entities or individuals – many imposing the death penalty. Twelve northern states of Nigeria, including Sokoto, implement sharia law, under which blasphemy can be punishable by death. But public violence is often triggered before authorities become involved.

    Nigeria’s population is religiously divided with a Christian majority in the south and Muslim majority in the north. People of both faiths have fallen victim to blasphemy killings in the north, which have received support from influential individuals, including Islamic preachers, businessmen and government officials...

  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    A literal dead cat story

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/99cc31da-2186-11ee-9b6f-7186ba87ded7?shareToken=de77dfc7e0dd432b700ab1fe4a44cd52

    300,000 feline coronavirus deaths in Cyprus. Which sounds a lot but if Cyprus is like other Greek Islands is a rounding error.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,794
    Pulpstar said:

    viewcode said:

    Yup, it launched successfully

    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/fZUvCTPhafU

    This is my periodic reminder that the UK space programme currently consists of a Virgin plane that doesn't work and that Top Gear Robin Reliant.

    (punches wall in irritation)

    Cost was £70 million apparently. I expect £70M wouldn't go as far in any potential space program of ours.
    I don't care. I want a Union Jack on the Moon. :)
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Origin of the term "podule"

    "Not the Nine O'Clock News" episode 1980
    https://youtu.be/ScNu_Sbx84Q?t=412

    I only know of 'podule' wrt Acorn computers - a term for hardware expansion cards. Is there another meaning?
    The word "podule" came up when @Leon used it when describing a holiday he took. I contend that this places him, as it's a term usually used by British fifty-sixty somethings.

    The word "podule" is a mangling of the words "pod" and "module". IIUC it was first used in that Not The Nine OClock episode in 1980 and then repurposed by the ARM team in the early 80's for their thing. Being young British computer nerds in the 1980s they would have been busily quoting sketches as they worked.

    https://youtu.be/ScNu_Sbx84Q?t=412
    Ah, thanks. From memory, and it might be wrong, we didn't use 'pod' internally - but I was there near the end, not the beginning. I thought it meant 'Peripheral Module', as opposed to 'Module', which was the OS's software organisation. I do recall someone using 'Sodule' for 'Software module' - although he meant Sod-you-all... ;)
    And to take it further down a rabbit hole that will interest no-one, I've just checked the 1991 edition of the Acorn Technical Publications Style Guide, and it says that the use of 'podule' was deprecated, and instead it should be 'expansion card'. Sadly, there is no definition of what it means.
    https://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/docs/Acorn/Manuals/Acorn_TechnicalPublishingSystemTRMPt2.pdf
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,317
    Miklosvar said:

    darkage said:

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/364821580_Climate_Disruption_Caused_by_a_Decline_in_Marine_Biodiversity_and_Pollution

    I have just been reading this paper from the 'International journal of Environment and Climate Change'. It suggests that achieving net zero may only be part of the picture in avoiding catastrophic climate change, and that there is a bigger problem with a decline in marine biodiversity. The writers appear to be connected to Edinburgh University.
    The paper concludes with the following 'recommendations':

    "We must continue with carbon mitigation, but as a matter of urgency, we must eliminate the dumping of all toxic forever lipophilic chemicals, as well as plastic and black carbon soot, into the environment. All wastewaters must be treated, we must not pollute our environment, we must DO NO HARM to nature on land and to marine life in the Oceans. We must start doing some GOOD and transition from destructive farming and unsustainable fishing practices to rewilding and regenerate ecosystems on land and in the oceans. We should also give serious consideration to changing sea water chemistry by increasing calcium and alkalinity concentrations, which we consider to be a no-risk strategy.."

    I go along with the consensus of opinion about climate change and what we need to do about it. But I find the subject very difficult because everything I read seems to be driven by a 'we need to this now and anyone who disagrees is evil' activism, exemplified by the quote above. If the science is being driven by activism and a politicised narrative of right and wrong, then it seems less likely that we will ultimately know what interventions are good and what are harmful, which can only occur when there is free enquiry unconstrained by politics.

    They're obviously right. It's like driving a car without maintaining it. You are bound to have a catastrophic failure whether it's the brakes or the wheel bearings or the lub or the cooling system which goes first. Overfocusing on climate change is like paying no attention to any of your readouts except the fuel gauge. We are doomed.
    But alternatively, is this not just the recurring human predeliction to think that we are in mortal danger and the world is coming to an end. The natural and instinctive response to chaos.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,874

    Re the BBC and science: This is probably the most dumbed down "explanation" of a fusion experiment that I've ever read:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-66186870

    Ah, but it’s Oxfordshire. The BBC needed to dumb it down so that even the inmates of Cowley Tech could understand it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    Re the BBC and science: This is probably the most dumbed down "explanation" of a fusion experiment that I've ever read:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-66186870

    Ah, but it’s Oxfordshire. The BBC needed to dumb it down so that even the inmates of Cowley Tech could understand it.
    It's Cowley tech guys that are building it.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,598
    edited July 2023
    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    CON Hold in Dinnington !

    CON: 42.7% (+6.5)
    LAB: 32.9% (+7.5)
    LDM: 10.5% (+1.5)
    IND: 7.9% (-11.3)
    RFM: 2.4% (New)
    GRN: 2.4% (-7.7)
    Yorks: 1.1% (New)

    It's probably a mix of its being a Red Wall seat, and Labour still suffering (rightly) from the record of the local council.

    Even in May, there were places where the Conservatives pulled off good results (eg East Cambs., Slough, Torbay, Bedford, Leicester) due to local factors. That is a difference from 1994-96, were results were just appalling everywhere.
    I wouldn't call Laughton-en-le-Morthern (nice church) or Anston (nice woodland) particularly Red Wall. They are turning into commuter villages. Dinnington itself still is a bit ex-mining though.
This discussion has been closed.