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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » As the immigration debate moves centre stage the minister in charge resigns for employing an illegal as his cleaner

Immigration Minister Mark Harper resigns after it emerged his cleaner did not have permission to work in the UK. pic.twitter.com/CD3uOfzKRe

Read the full story here

TheScreamingEagles

Messy for Dave, UKIP and Farage must be laughing their balls off.

TheScreamingEagles

FPT for Neil

I know, I know, but I've said before, in the world of politics, the perceptions sometimes matter more than the facts.

Mark Harper knew how damaging it would be for the government if he didn't resign.

Neil

If he had supported an amnesty like Boris the cleaner wouldnt have been working illegally and he wouldnt have had to resign.

TwistedFireStopper

Let's hope he's set the standard for other ministers who fail to meet a higher standard. Too many try and cling on when they have been found wanting.

TheScreamingEagles

TwistedFireStopper said:

Let's hope he's set the standard for other ministers who fail to meet a higher standard. Too many try and cling on when they have been found wanting.

Compare and contrast to Baroness Scotland

Baroness Scotland has sacked her housekeeper from Tonga, because she was allegedly working in the UK illegally.

The attorney general employed Loloahi Tapui, 27, for six months, the Daily Mail reported.
She was a Home Office minister when laws were passed to fine bosses who employ illegal workers up to £10,000.

Downing St said Gordon Brown had "full confidence" in Baroness Scotland who says she hired Ms Tapui in "good faith" and thought she was entitled to work.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8260088.stm

CarlottaVance

How different, how very different, from our own dear Labour....

Gordon Brown today decided to allow the attorney general, Lady Scotland, to remain in government after she was fined £5,000 for employing an illegal immigrant.

The prime minister said he had decided to take no further action because Scotland had employed Loloahi Tapui, a housekeeper from Tonga, "in good faith" and had apologised "unreservedly".

But the Tories demanded Scotland's immediate resignation, pointing out that she was being punished for breaking a law that she had helped steer through parliament.

Chris Huhne, the Liberal Democrat home affairs spokesman, said: "Lawmakers should not be law-breakers, and this applies even more to Baroness Scotland due to her special position as chief law officer. Her position now looks untenable."

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/sep/22/lady-scotland-illegal-immigrant-brown

AndyJS

Seems like a bit of a minor issue to resign over.

isam

Snap!

TheScreamingEagles

Just when you thought the Russians couldn't get any more cuddlier...

Woman who lit the Olympic flame sent a racist tweet about Barack Obama last year

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/sochi/2014/02/07/winter-games-obama-flame-irina-rodnina-racist/5289869/

MarqueeMark

CarlottaVance said:

Chris Huhne, the Liberal Democrat home affairs spokesman, said: "Lawmakers should not be law-breakers, and this applies even more to Baroness Scotland due to her special position as chief law officer. Her position now looks untenable."

History can be a cruel mistress....

anotherDave

UKIP's call for the Foreign Aid budget to be redirected to UK flood relief seems to have rattled some west country MPs. Lots of emails from constituents?

Ian Liddell-Grainger, Tory MP for flood-hit Bridgwater in Somerset
Neil Parish, Tory MP for Tiverton and Honiton
Jacob Rees-Mogg, Tory MP for North East Somerset

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2554324/Spend-foreign-aid-British-victims-flooding-MPs-impassioned-call-crisis-deepens.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2552969/Ukips-Nigel-Farage-calls-foreign-aid-budget-used-help-flood-hit-communities.html

TheScreamingEagles

Mark Harper was behind the Go Home vans.....

TheScreamingEagles

Well done Ireland, another successful tip by me.

Carola

'James Brokenshire to take Mark Harper's post. Karen Bradley to junior Home Office minister. Harriett Baldwin MP to become Govt Whip' rentoul

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/details-of-ministerial-appointments-announced

jayfdee

Presume he will be prosecuted,in the same way as Lady Scotland.

Sunil_Prasannan

anotherDave said:

UKIP's call for the Foreign Aid budget to be redirected to UK flood relief seems to have rattled some west country MPs. Lots of emails from constituents?

Ian Liddell-Grainger, Tory MP for flood-hit Bridgwater in Somerset
Neil Parish, Tory MP for Tiverton and Honiton
Jacob Rees-Mogg, Tory MP for North East Somerset

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2554324/Spend-foreign-aid-British-victims-flooding-MPs-impassioned-call-crisis-deepens.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2552969/Ukips-Nigel-Farage-calls-foreign-aid-budget-used-help-flood-hit-communities.html

The foreign aid budget is considerably less than the amount we give in "aid" to the developed countries of the EU.

Sunil_Prasannan

There's a Belgian speed-skater called "Bart Swings"!

MikeK

We're Singin' In the Rain.....................Tootee toodeedoodedo....

Morris_Dancer

Good afternoon, everyone.

Very surprised by the dominance of Ireland's victory. They must be confident of a tilt at the tournament now.

TheScreamingEagles

Morris_Dancer said:

Good afternoon, everyone.

Very surprised by the dominance of Ireland's victory. They must be confident of a tilt at the tournament now.

As tipped by some wise fellow.

MikeK

Sunil_Prasannan said:

There's a Belgian speed-skater called "Bart Swings"!

Must be something to do with UNS.

anotherDave

Sunil_Prasannan said:

anotherDave said:

UKIP's call for the Foreign Aid budget to be redirected to UK flood relief seems to have rattled some west country MPs. Lots of emails from constituents?

Ian Liddell-Grainger, Tory MP for flood-hit Bridgwater in Somerset
Neil Parish, Tory MP for Tiverton and Honiton
Jacob Rees-Mogg, Tory MP for North East Somerset

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2554324/Spend-foreign-aid-British-victims-flooding-MPs-impassioned-call-crisis-deepens.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2552969/Ukips-Nigel-Farage-calls-foreign-aid-budget-used-help-flood-hit-communities.html

The foreign aid budget is considerably less than the amount we give in "aid" to the developed countries of the EU.

Fair point. Writing in the Express Mr Farage did suggest money from the EU budget.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/458527/FARAGE-ON-FRIDAY-Let-s-demand-EU-cashback-and-divert-foreign-aid-for-flood-victims

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Eagles, indeed. Oh well.

Neil

Great discipline from Ireland but Wales were really bad. The last move of the match was embarrassing, they just seemed to stop. I know I said it was worth backing Ireland for the championship and laying off before their away games (good return from that already) but I think they want to win this championship more than anyone else this year so I'm going to hold on to the bet. Heart 1 - Head 0.

TheScreamingEagles

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Eagles, indeed. Oh well.

I also had a 40/1 winner today as well.

HurstLlama

TheScreamingEagles said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Good afternoon, everyone.

Very surprised by the dominance of Ireland's victory. They must be confident of a tilt at the tournament now.

As tipped by some wise fellow.

Careful, Mr. Eagles, or I shall start putting money on your tips and with my luck recently you wouldn't like the result.

TheScreamingEagles

Neil said:

Great discipline from Ireland but Wales were really bad. The last move of the match was embarrassing, they just seemed to stop. I know I said it was worth backing Ireland for the championship and laying off before their away games (good return from that already) but I think they want to win this championship more than anyone else this year so I'm going to hold on to the bet. Heart 1 - Head 0.

Embarrassing was the "handbags at ten paces" after the last try.

maaarsh

Lazy sod should be cleaning his own home anyway.

Sunil_Prasannan

anotherDave said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

anotherDave said:

UKIP's call for the Foreign Aid budget to be redirected to UK flood relief seems to have rattled some west country MPs. Lots of emails from constituents?

Ian Liddell-Grainger, Tory MP for flood-hit Bridgwater in Somerset
Neil Parish, Tory MP for Tiverton and Honiton
Jacob Rees-Mogg, Tory MP for North East Somerset

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2554324/Spend-foreign-aid-British-victims-flooding-MPs-impassioned-call-crisis-deepens.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2552969/Ukips-Nigel-Farage-calls-foreign-aid-budget-used-help-flood-hit-communities.html

The foreign aid budget is considerably less than the amount we give in "aid" to the developed countries of the EU.

Fair point.

Or, in bar chart form:

pic.twitter.com/kgpj75T0LY

Neil

@TSE

Phillips is an annoying so-and-so.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Eagles, .... and I didn't even see the tip

Those are tremendous odds.

TheScreamingEagles

Neil said:

@TSE

Phillips is an annoying so-and-so.

Well he is Welsh....

TheScreamingEagles

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Eagles, .... and I didn't even see the tip

Those are tremendous odds.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to post them on the site.

I did post the winning betting slip afterwards though

SMukesh

Perhaps Mark Harper should have parked one of the `Go Home` vans in his driveway.Shows how ineffective his campaign really was.Nice chap though.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Eagles, *sighs*

Morris_Dancer

On resignations: didn't Estelle Morris resign on the basis she wasn't up to it? If only Brown had followed her example!

Jonathan

Not sure why he resigned. Only if he knowingly and deliberately employed her without the right legal status is this dodgy.

TheScreamingEagles

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Eagles, *sighs*

I'm going to reinvest some of my winnings on Scotland to beat England at 5/1 with Coral

http://www.oddschecker.com/rugby-union/six-nations/scotland-v-england/winner

And England to win by 21-30 points at 9/2

http://www.oddschecker.com/rugby-union/six-nations/scotland-v-england/winning-margin

TheScreamingEagles

Jonathan said:

Not sure why he resigned. Only if he knowingly and deliberately employed her without the right legal status is this dodgy.

Had he been a Minister without the Immigration portfolio, he would have been able to hang on, it's the equivalent of the Transport Minister that gets caught by the police for Drink Driviing

Pulpstar

An honorable course of action. He should be able to return to ministerial politics at some point in the future I'd imagine (If the Conservatives stay in Gov't)

CarlottaVance

Wonder which Sunday newspaper is re-doing its front page?

And I'm not sure I buy Harper's 'Although I complied with the law at all times' as one of the requirements of the law is that you keep records - his 'I lost them' cost Baroness Scotland £5,000......

bigjohnowls

Does Mark Harper use the go home van to store his cleaner

SMukesh

I wonder if a friendly newspaper tipped the Tories off about Mark Harper.

OblitusSumMe

UKIP saved their deposit in his constituency in 2010, so a better than average seat for them. They could make a fair bit of progress there.

MonikerDiCanio

Permit less cleaner sighted in Norfolk;
http://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/news/labour_election_mastermind_arnie_graf_in_norfolk_visit_1_2361767

Easterross

It was a silly thing to do, especially since every employer in the UK has a legal duty to verify the right of each employee to work in the UK. However the contrast between his immediate resignation and the failure of a Labour Government Law Officer, Baroness Scotland to resign when caught employing an illegal worker is marked as is the failure of former Labour cabinet minister Lord Smith who is hanging on at the English Environment Agency.

SMukesh

He says he saw the visa in 2007 and then when he became immigration minister he thought he`ll check again but forgot.And finally after 4 years he managed to do that.Why would he check again if he saw the permit.Odd!

murali_s

@Sunil

Unfortunately it's not as simple as that. You have quoted the 'cost' of being in the 'club' without mentioning the benefits, tangible and otherwise.

Not saying that the EU is perfect, but to leave it is sheer lunacy. The UK would become an isolated and poor backwater of north-west Europe as multi-nationals leave the UK in their droves.

John Major hit the nail on the head...

http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/john-major-warns-of-cost-of-britain-leaving-eu-1-3213922

Easterross

jayfdee said:

Presume he will be prosecuted,in the same way as Lady Scotland.

She wasn't "prosecuted". It was a civil penalty, like a very expensive glorified parking ticket.

Sunil_Prasannan

murali_s said:

@Sunil

Unfortunately it's not as simple as that. You have quoted the 'cost' of being in the 'club' without mentioning the benefits, tangible and otherwise.

Not saying that the EU is perfect, but to leave it is sheer lunacy. The UK would become an isolated and poor backwater of north-west Europe as multi-nationals leave the UK in their droves.

John Major hit the nail on the head...

http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/john-major-warns-of-cost-of-britain-leaving-eu-1-3213922

Er, why should the cost of being in any 'club' be a net 10 billion quid?

Sunil_Prasannan

West Ham!

murali_s

Er, why should the cost of being in any 'club' be a net 10 billion quid?

Er, cost of not being in the 'club' - poverty, isolation and irrelevance...

Easterross

SMukesh said:

He says he saw the visa in 2007 and then when he became immigration minister he thought he`ll check again but forgot.And finally after 4 years he managed to do that.Why would he check again if he saw the permit.Odd!

All immigration work permits etc contain time limits. The only exception is where someone is given indefinite leave to remain which is usually a precursor for applying for British citizenship. Work permits and Visas like photo driving licenses catch out the majority who don't read the fine print. By law, Blair imposed an obligation on ALL UK employers to be satisfied all employees have the right to live and work in the UK. They are supposed to view and retain a copy of the employee's birth certificate if a British citizen, of their passport or identity card if an EU citizen or of their passport and Visa/Work permit stamp if non EU.

Charles

CarlottaVance said:

How different, how very different, from our own dear Labour....

Gordon Brown today decided to allow the attorney general, Lady Scotland, to remain in government after she was fined £5,000 for employing an illegal immigrant.

The prime minister said he had decided to take no further action because Scotland had employed Loloahi Tapui, a housekeeper from Tonga, "in good faith" and had apologised "unreservedly".

But the Tories demanded Scotland's immediate resignation, pointing out that she was being punished for breaking a law that she had helped steer through parliament.

Chris Huhne, the Liberal Democrat home affairs spokesman, said: "Lawmakers should not be law-breakers, and this applies even more to Baroness Scotland due to her special position as chief law officer. Her position now looks untenable."

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/sep/22/lady-scotland-illegal-immigrant-brown

I like the Chris Huhne quote... ;-)

Neil

The Murrayfield pitch looks only slightly better than the current state of Hackney Marshes. We're probably in for some old style rugby today.

SMukesh

Easterross said:

SMukesh said:

He says he saw the visa in 2007 and then when he became immigration minister he thought he`ll check again but forgot.And finally after 4 years he managed to do that.Why would he check again if he saw the permit.Odd!

All immigration work permits etc contain time limits. The only exception is where someone is given indefinite leave to remain which is usually a precursor for applying for British citizenship. Work permits and Visas like photo driving licenses catch out the majority who don't read the fine print. By law, Blair imposed an obligation on ALL UK employers to be satisfied all employees have the right to live and work in the UK. They are supposed to view and retain a copy of the employee's birth certificate if a British citizen, of their passport or identity card if an EU citizen or of their passport and Visa/Work permit stamp if non EU.

The cleaner is supposed to have had Indefinite leave to remain in 2007.I suspect the real story will come out in one of the Sunday newspapers.

Alanbrooke

Neil said:

The Murrayfield pitch looks only slightly better than the current state of Hackney Marshes. We're probably in for some old style rugby today.

I think they're playing on the Somerset levels. Mooryfield.

stodge

Afternoon all

I'm afraid other matters kept me from commenting on David H's piece this morning. I understand the point, I think, but I'm not wholly convinced.

There are, to my mind, three distinct voting blocks at the moment - the "Blue" side which is the Conservative vote plus maybe 40% of the UKIP numbers, the "Red" side which is the Labour vote plus perhaps 10% of the UKIP vote and the "Rest" which is what it says on the tin.

When I look at poll numbers I add 40% of the UKIP score to the Conservatives and 10% to Labour and that tells me what a GE would look like at the moment. Hugely imprecise but we have to start somewhere.

I do agree with the premise that the movement is between "Blue" and "Rest" or "Red" and "Rest" and this might explain the fairly static poll numbers since the spring of 2012.

As for Mark Harper, well, yes, he had to go and it's an embarrassment that the Conservatives could probably do without but it's not much more than that. Whether or not UKIP gain any temporary traction is debatable and within a fortnight this will be ancient history (or it may not).

TheScreamingEagles

Neil said:

The Murrayfield pitch looks only slightly better than the current state of Hackney Marshes. We're probably in for some old style rugby today.

Oh, we're playing at Murrayfield, I thought we were playing on muddy fields of the Somme circa 1917

Sunil_Prasannan

murali_s said:

Er, why should the cost of being in any 'club' be a net 10 billion quid?

Er, cost of not being in the 'club' - poverty, isolation and irrelevance...

Show how Norway or Switzerland are isolated, poor and irrelevant.

not_on_fire

Jonathan said:

Not sure why he resigned. Only if he knowingly and deliberately employed her without the right legal status is this dodgy.

Wrong, an employer is legally required to ensure their employees have permission to work in the UK at all times. MH has failed to do this and has broken the law. I'm guessing his cleaners visa expired and he didn't make note of the expiry date.

anotherDave

OblitusSumMe said:

UKIP saved their deposit in his constituency in 2010, so a better than average seat for them. They could make a fair bit of progress there.

Forest of Dean was one of UKIP's 2013 'wins'

http://survation.com/2013/05/ukip-won-in-8-westminster-constituencies-last-thursday/

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/2015guide/forestofdean/

MikeSmithson

Clearly Scotland have been ordered to throw the game because it creates a better narrative ahead of IndyRef

AlastairMeeks

It would take a heart of stone not to laugh. In practice, his speedy resignation will kill the story. Mr Harper has my sympathy.

CarlottaVance

Hugh said:

Tories only have themselves to blame.

While of course Baroness Scotland & Gordon Brown did the honourable thing......

Pulpstar

MikeSmithson said:

Clearly Scotland have been ordered to throw the game because it creates a better narrative ahead of IndyRef

Yes - Better together.

CarlottaVance

not_on_fire said:

Jonathan said:

Not sure why he resigned. Only if he knowingly and deliberately employed her without the right legal status is this dodgy.

I'm guessing his cleaners visa expired and he didn't make note of the expiry date.

His account is that she had a letter confirming 'indefinite leave to remain' (no expiry) which turned out to be false....

AlastairMeeks

not_on_fire said:

Jonathan said:

Not sure why he resigned. Only if he knowingly and deliberately employed her without the right legal status is this dodgy.

Wrong, an employer is legally required to ensure their employees have permission to work in the UK at all times. MH has failed to do this and has broken the law. I'm guessing his cleaners visa expired and he didn't make note of the expiry date.

On the account he gives in his resignation letter, she was self-employed.

JosiasJessop

If you are responsible for creating laws, you have to stick to them.

It's hardly a major crime, and he has reacted speedily. Unless more comes out (and who knows?) then it should hardly be the end of his political career.

But:

Hahahahaha hum.

Also: I wonder which other politicians are calling in their staff to re-check their status?

not_on_fire

antifrank said:

not_on_fire said:

Jonathan said:

Not sure why he resigned. Only if he knowingly and deliberately employed her without the right legal status is this dodgy.

Wrong, an employer is legally required to ensure their employees have permission to work in the UK at all times. MH has failed to do this and has broken the law. I'm guessing his cleaners visa expired and he didn't make note of the expiry date.

On the account he gives in his resignation letter, she was self-employed.

Which begs the question of how and why someone was given a work visa to be a self-employed cleaner. Not exactly a skilled occupation.

SMukesh

I think the only way Mark Harper can prove he saw the residence status of his cleaner is by showing photocopies of her visa in2007.The fact that he has misplaced them is no defence to the accusation that he didn`t check her status before employing her.

Pulpstar

Scotland saved by the post there

CarlottaVance

not_on_fire said:

antifrank said:

not_on_fire said:

Jonathan said:

Not sure why he resigned. Only if he knowingly and deliberately employed her without the right legal status is this dodgy.

Wrong, an employer is legally required to ensure their employees have permission to work in the UK at all times. MH has failed to do this and has broken the law. I'm guessing his cleaners visa expired and he didn't make note of the expiry date.

On the account he gives in his resignation letter, she was self-employed.

Which begs the question of how and why someone was given a work visa to be a self-employed cleaner. Not exactly a skilled occupation.

She didn't have a 'work visa' - she purported to have 'indefinite leave to remain' - which could be granted for a number of reasons (e.g. married to a Brit) - once you have that you can do any work you like - Harper's breech was in failing to keep the records.

CarlottaVance

SMukesh said:

I think the only way Mark Harper can prove he saw the residence status of his cleaner is by showing photocopies of her visa in2007.The fact that he has misplaced them is no defence to the accusation that he didn`t check her status before employing her.

If she had a letter saying 'indefinite leave to remain' it would be the same letter in 2007 as 2014 - you only need one (the hint is in the 'indefinite') - but you are correct - he should have kept a copy of the document he saw 2007 - even if it was a fake.

Of course, I doubt Harper was her only employer - I wonder who else is feeling nervous tonight.....

MonikerDiCanio

Slurryfield.

CarlottaVance

not_on_fire said:

Jonathan said:

Not sure why he resigned. Only if he knowingly and deliberately employed her without the right legal status is this dodgy.

I'm guessing his cleaners visa expired and he didn't make note of the expiry date.

I suggest you read his letter - multiple links below - which will save you from 'guessing'.....

Pulpstar

Murrayfield ?

Muddy field more like !

CarlottaVance

Tim Montgomerie tweets: The England rugby team clearly didn't read David Cameron's speech. WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE NICE TO THE SCOTS!* (*Offer expires late September)

Pulpstar

Scots need to eat more porridge. The England boys simply look bigger.

perdix

anotherDave said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

anotherDave said:

UKIP's call for the Foreign Aid budget to be redirected to UK flood relief seems to have rattled some west country MPs. Lots of emails from constituents?

Ian Liddell-Grainger, Tory MP for flood-hit Bridgwater in Somerset
Neil Parish, Tory MP for Tiverton and Honiton
Jacob Rees-Mogg, Tory MP for North East Somerset

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2554324/Spend-foreign-aid-British-victims-flooding-MPs-impassioned-call-crisis-deepens.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2552969/Ukips-Nigel-Farage-calls-foreign-aid-budget-used-help-flood-hit-communities.html

The foreign aid budget is considerably less than the amount we give in "aid" to the developed countries of the EU.

Fair point. Writing in the Express Mr Farage did suggest money from the EU budget.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/458527/FARAGE-ON-FRIDAY-Let-s-demand-EU-cashback-and-divert-foreign-aid-for-flood-victims

The re-designations of aid budgets and HS2 budgets have been demanded ten times over. How very Labour!

Theuniondivvie

MikeSmithson said:

Clearly Scotland have been ordered to throw the game because it creates a better narrative ahead of IndyRef

Aye, but a better narrative for which side?
'Scottish rugby will be sh*te until independence' or 'Scottish rugby is so sh*te you don't deserve independence.'

SouthamObserver

England become so predictable within 10 yards of the try line. Happened last week; happening again this week. So frustrating.

SouthamObserver

Perfect bok. My try. Thank-you!!!

isam

perdix said:

anotherDave said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

anotherDave said:

UKIP's call for the Foreign Aid budget to be redirected to UK flood relief seems to have rattled some west country MPs. Lots of emails from constituents?

Ian Liddell-Grainger, Tory MP for flood-hit Bridgwater in Somerset
Neil Parish, Tory MP for Tiverton and Honiton
Jacob Rees-Mogg, Tory MP for North East Somerset

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2554324/Spend-foreign-aid-British-victims-flooding-MPs-impassioned-call-crisis-deepens.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2552969/Ukips-Nigel-Farage-calls-foreign-aid-budget-used-help-flood-hit-communities.html

The foreign aid budget is considerably less than the amount we give in "aid" to the developed countries of the EU.

Fair point. Writing in the Express Mr Farage did suggest money from the EU budget.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/458527/FARAGE-ON-FRIDAY-Let-s-demand-EU-cashback-and-divert-foreign-aid-for-flood-victims

The re-designations of aid budgets and HS2 budgets have been demanded ten times over. How very Labour!

Channelling Paul Weller "That's Opposition, that's opposition.... " Em, G, Em, G

TheScreamingEagles

SouthamObserver said:

Perfect bok. My try. Thank-you!!!

Can you say England won't win by 21-30 points please.

smithersjones2013

murali_s said:

@Sunil

Unfortunately it's not as simple as that. You have quoted the 'cost' of being in the 'club' without mentioning the benefits, tangible and otherwise.

Not saying that the EU is perfect, but to leave it is sheer lunacy. The UK would become an isolated and poor backwater of north-west Europe as multi-nationals leave the UK in their droves.

John Major hit the nail on the head...

http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/john-major-warns-of-cost-of-britain-leaving-eu-1-3213922

Yeah right one of the masterminds behind the British ERM debacle. Major has about as much credibility on the EU as Brown has on economic matters.

If we want to play those games lets then talk about the real costs and not just the membership fee.

EU 'costs Britain £118bn a year'
The European Union's vast cost is one of the biggest reasons to be concerned about Britain's relationship with it, says Matthew Elliott.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/6198708/EU-costs-Britain-118bn-a-year.html

Ironic that's about the same as the current annual government overspend.

smithersjones2013

perdix said:

anotherDave said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

anotherDave said:

UKIP's call for the Foreign Aid budget to be redirected to UK flood relief seems to have rattled some west country MPs. Lots of emails from constituents?

Ian Liddell-Grainger, Tory MP for flood-hit Bridgwater in Somerset
Neil Parish, Tory MP for Tiverton and Honiton
Jacob Rees-Mogg, Tory MP for North East Somerset

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2554324/Spend-foreign-aid-British-victims-flooding-MPs-impassioned-call-crisis-deepens.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2552969/Ukips-Nigel-Farage-calls-foreign-aid-budget-used-help-flood-hit-communities.html

The foreign aid budget is considerably less than the amount we give in "aid" to the developed countries of the EU.

Fair point. Writing in the Express Mr Farage did suggest money from the EU budget.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/458527/FARAGE-ON-FRIDAY-Let-s-demand-EU-cashback-and-divert-foreign-aid-for-flood-victims

The re-designations of aid budgets and HS2 budgets have been demanded ten times over. How very Labour!

And yet the money has yet to be redirected and is therefore is still available to be redirected

Pulpstar

SouthamObserver said:

England become so predictable within 10 yards of the try line. Happened last week; happening again this week. So frustrating.

You're right though, England look far more dangerous ~ 30 yards from the tryline than 10 !

JonnyJimmy

I was so pleased when I heard that Scotland were bringing on a sub called MacSevens, and so disappointed when I saw he was called Max Evans....

SouthamObserver

Pulpstar said:

SouthamObserver said:

England become so predictable within 10 yards of the try line. Happened last week; happening again this week. So frustrating.

You're right though, England look far more dangerous ~ 30 yards from the tryline than 10 !

Against good sides it is going to be a problem. They are a bit ponderous and predictable - which is strange given how fluid they are in getting there in the first place.

TheScreamingEagles

SouthamObserver said:

Pulpstar said:

SouthamObserver said:

England become so predictable within 10 yards of the try line. Happened last week; happening again this week. So frustrating.

You're right though, England look far more dangerous ~ 30 yards from the tryline than 10 !

Against good sides it is going to be a problem. They are a bit ponderous and predictable - which is strange given how fluid they are in getting there in the first place.

Look at this way, they're just refining and making sure they peak in time for the World Cup (I hope!)

Pong

On the assumption that there's nothing more to come out - well done him for resigning.

MarqueeMark

The only urgent question that UKIP want to ask of Mark Harper is

"Did she clean behind the fridge?"

Sunil_Prasannan

MarqueeMark said:

The only urgent question that UKIP want to ask of Mark Harper is

"Did she clean behind the fridge?"

Smeg!

DecrepitJohnL

Harper had to go once David Cameron had read the previous thread about the excess of Oxford PPEs.

SouthamObserver

Very, very easy. Sad to see how poor Scotland have become. They need some marauding Borderers to appear from somewhere. England a work on progress and looking very strong until those last 10 yards. Crack that and next year could get very interesting.

Pulpstar

21-30 points pipped by a nose.

stodge

Evening all

I'm puzzled as to why the "cost" of being in something should be the rationale for whether we join it or not. I suspect being in the UN "costs" and I also suspect being in NATO "costs" as well.

If you start from a hostile position then an analysis based simply on accounting can usually support your position but if our future international relations are going to be based on knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing - well, that will be a strange way of doing things.

The question is less how much does it cost to be in the EU, UN or NATO but rather what value do we get from being a member of these organisations (and others ?).

The same argument can be used when discussing international aid as well.

Charles

stodge said:

Evening all

I'm puzzled as to why the "cost" of being in something should be the rationale for whether we join it or not. I suspect being in the UN "costs" and I also suspect being in NATO "costs" as well.

If you start from a hostile position then an analysis based simply on accounting can usually support your position but if our future international relations are going to be based on knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing - well, that will be a strange way of doing things.

The question is less how much does it cost to be in the EU, UN or NATO but rather what value do we get from being a member of these organisations (and others ?).

The same argument can be used when discussing international aid as well.

How else are you going to rigorously assess whether something is in the UK's national interest if not a cost-benefit analysis?

Naturally this includes more than just financial costs, but I would assume there are formulae that are accepted to calculate the value of these intangibles (e.g. I believe the value of a human life in traffic safety measures is set at £1 million)

MonikerDiCanio

SouthamObserver said:

Very, very easy. Sad to see how poor Scotland have become. They need some marauding Borderers to appear from somewhere. England a work on progress and looking very strong until those last 10 yards. Crack that and next year could get very interesting.

Under the SNP Scotland seems to have had her venom drawn. The only passion on display at Murrayfield was from the England players and supporters.