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Wagner turns his troops around “to avoid bloodshed” – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,047
edited July 2023 in General
imageWagner turns his troops around “to avoid bloodshed” – politicalbetting.com

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  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705
    edited June 2023
    So, does Wagner now politely ask for more supplies of fuel, seeing as they (Prigozhin) wasted a shitload on a seemingly pointless trip to the edge of Moscow?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977

    So, does Wagner now politely ask for more supplies of fuel, seeing as he's wasted a shitload on a seemingly pointless trip to the edge of Moscow?

    I guess he says pretty please can Wagner not be disbanded, and I promise not to coup a second time?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,446
    kle4 said:

    So, does Wagner now politely ask for more supplies of fuel, seeing as he's wasted a shitload on a seemingly pointless trip to the edge of Moscow?

    I guess he says pretty please can Wagner not be disbanded, and I promise not to coup a second time?
    Please banish me to my African gold mines to get me out of the way.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,527
    My intel is that they’ve had a nice cup of tea and sorted everything out. Russia had no further problems.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,272
    Well.
    That was pretty dramatic.
    And anti-climactic.
    No idea what's gone on.
    But Russia is a shambles.
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    I am glad some bloodshed was saved, any life lost is too much.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,327
    Prigozhin has signed his own death warrant. Oh well, he didn't seem a very nice man anyway.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,627
    The excuse reminds me of the American author who was unshakeably convinced of the merits of his libel case, but dropped it because it was Christmas and he felt nice.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,527
    DavidL said:

    Prigozhin has signed his own death warrant. Oh well, he didn't seem a very nice man anyway.

    He’s got a lot of well armed friends AIUI
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,627
    DavidL said:

    Prigozhin has signed his own death warrant. Oh well, he didn't seem a very nice man anyway.

    The positive advantage of Prigozhin and Putin having a lethal falling out is whichever of them dies a bastard gets it.

    Ideally of course it would be both.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,092

    I am glad some bloodshed was saved, any life lost is too much.

    Did you say that to Putin before he invaded Ukraine?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,470
    NY Times

    Some Western analysts expressed a cautious wait-and-see attitude toward the sudden reversal by the head of the Wagner private military group. “I don’t believe it until I see it,” said Dara Massicot, a senior policy researcher at the RAND Corporation.
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761

    I am glad some bloodshed was saved, any life lost is too much.

    Did you say that to Putin before he invaded Ukraine?
    I think I mentioned it here so basically the same thing
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,627

    I am glad some bloodshed was saved, any life lost is too much.

    Did you say that to Putin before he invaded Ukraine?
    Unfortunately he couldn't shout loud enough to be heard across that table, on account of being Horse.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,631
    DavidL said:

    Prigozhin has signed his own death warrant. Oh well, he didn't seem a very nice man anyway.

    Nah, he’ll be forgiven and invited for tea….
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,650
    This is an interesting lesson. The Wagner guy may have done a deal and turned his tanks around. But know this - @HYUFD will not be such a cowardly custard when he is leading the tank assault on Scotland.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,520
    edited June 2023
    It is disappointing that things do not appear to have come to a head so as to prompt immediate regime change in Moscow. But it is inconceivable that things go back to exactly the way they did before all this happened.

    Putin is weaker. The war is on shakier ground. Wagner is potentially split. Meanwhile, the Ukrainian counteroffensive continues.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,845
    edited June 2023
    No statement so far, whatsoever, from Putin, but Lukashenko prominent.

    Interesting,,
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,272

    Who comes out of this stronger?

    Zelensky.

    Lukashenka.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,544
    Who holds the winning hand here?

    Putin has the apparatus of the Russian state to destroy Prigozhin, but without Prigozhin Putin is in deep doodoo.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,369

    I am glad some bloodshed was saved, any life lost is too much.

    Apart from the old and vulnerable during Covid obvs.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,866
    Not bizarre at all. Offshore Norway they use hydro power from onshore to power some platforms.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,437

    This is an interesting lesson. The Wagner guy may have done a deal and turned his tanks around. But know this - @HYUFD will not be such a cowardly custard when he is leading the tank assault on Scotland.

    He'll have the same problem as Wagner.

    Instead of encountering mined bridges over the Oka, it will be the Tweed and the Esk.
  • OldBasingOldBasing Posts: 173
    From the Observer:

    "Overall in the latest Opinium poll, Labour has made significant gains. Its lead rose from 12 points to 18 over the Tories in the last two weeks. Keir Starmer leads Sunak on who voters see as the best prime minister by 30% to 22%."
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,327
    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Prigozhin has signed his own death warrant. Oh well, he didn't seem a very nice man anyway.

    He’s got a lot of well armed friends AIUI
    I am sure that they are all extremely trustworthy too.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,586
    Wagner had a Hart to Hart with Putin
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,520

    Who holds the winning hand here?

    Putin has the apparatus of the Russian state to destroy Prigozhin, but without Prigozhin Putin is in deep doodoo.

    Both of them have duff hands now. The ones holding the best cards are the Ukrainians and any power player in the Kremlin or the Russian Army (if any exist) plotting for regime change.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,650

    Who holds the winning hand here?

    Putin has the apparatus of the Russian state to destroy Prigozhin, but without Prigozhin Putin is in deep doodoo.

    Wagner were a few hours away from a full-blown coup attempt. A deal may have been brokered to back down, but that is different to going back to doing Putin's bidding and waging war in Ukraine.

    Russia needed Wagner because losing. So unless Wagner go back to status quo ante, Russia has lost. And even in status quo ante Russia was losing.

    So this is good news for Ukraine. Unless Putin pushes the button as his last remaining play.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,544

    Wagner had a Hart to Hart with Putin

    You mean
    When they met, it was moider?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,327
    edited June 2023
    biggles said:

    DavidL said:

    Prigozhin has signed his own death warrant. Oh well, he didn't seem a very nice man anyway.

    Nah, he’ll be forgiven and invited for tea….
    In a room with a fantastic view.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,586

    I am glad some bloodshed was saved, any life lost is too much.

    Did you say that to Putin before he invaded Ukraine?
    Did you say it to Blair before he invaded Iraq?

    Or are you a hypocrite?
  • RiddlerRiddler Posts: 19

    Who holds the winning hand here?

    Putin has the apparatus of the Russian state to destroy Prigozhin, but without Prigozhin Putin is in deep doodoo.

    Both of them have duff hands now. The ones holding the best cards are the Ukrainians and any power player in the Kremlin or the Russian Army (if any exist) plotting for regime change.
    Cheer up guys excitement is over for the day. Putin is a master of deception and has played an absolute blinder. Hes certainly operating at a level above you guys. Dont you know deception is part of war. Now its back to pulverising ukraines rag tag army. Victory by August.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,018

    I am glad some bloodshed was saved, any life lost is too much.

    Did you say that to Putin before he invaded Ukraine?
    Did you say it to Blair before he invaded Iraq?

    Or are you a hypocrite?
    Genuine question, did you leave the Labour Party over Iraq and Afghanistan?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,586
    Riddler said:

    Who holds the winning hand here?

    Putin has the apparatus of the Russian state to destroy Prigozhin, but without Prigozhin Putin is in deep doodoo.

    Both of them have duff hands now. The ones holding the best cards are the Ukrainians and any power player in the Kremlin or the Russian Army (if any exist) plotting for regime change.
    Cheer up guys excitement is over for the day. Putin is a master of deception and has played an absolute blinder. Hes certainly operating at a level above you guys. Dont you know deception is part of war. Now its back to pulverising ukraines rag tag army. Victory by August.
    Which August?
  • Wagner had a Hart to Hart with Putin

    His trip up and down the M4 was hardly the Ride of the Valkyries.
  • RiddlerRiddler Posts: 19
    Okay, how about this theory: Putin and Prigozhin staged this drama to ferret out the traitors in Russia. Have a fake coup and see who gets a hard on, who switches sides, and who starts making phone calls to US/UK. Hey, this whole thing is super surreal and crazy, so why not?

    7:05 PM · Jun 24, 2023

    ·

    117.7K

    Views

    https://twitter.com/Kanthan2030/status/1672667303413182464?s=20
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,520
    Oh no, another one!
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,056

    ...And even in status quo ante Russia was losing...

    Unfortunately not. The lines are effectively congealed. Arguably the Russians are winning (but very, very slowly) and the recent Ukraine counteroffensive have made very, very small advances.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,437
    Riddler said:

    Who holds the winning hand here?

    Putin has the apparatus of the Russian state to destroy Prigozhin, but without Prigozhin Putin is in deep doodoo.

    Both of them have duff hands now. The ones holding the best cards are the Ukrainians and any power player in the Kremlin or the Russian Army (if any exist) plotting for regime change.
    Cheer up guys excitement is over for the day. Putin is a master of deception and has played an absolute blinder. Hes certainly operating at a level above you guys. Dont you know deception is part of war. Now its back to pulverising ukraines rag tag army. Victory by August.
    Ah, you're back. How far out of Moscow did you get before you got the news?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,650
    Riddler said:

    Who holds the winning hand here?

    Putin has the apparatus of the Russian state to destroy Prigozhin, but without Prigozhin Putin is in deep doodoo.

    Both of them have duff hands now. The ones holding the best cards are the Ukrainians and any power player in the Kremlin or the Russian Army (if any exist) plotting for regime change.
    Cheer up guys excitement is over for the day. Putin is a master of deception and has played an absolute blinder. Hes certainly operating at a level above you guys. Dont you know deception is part of war. Now its back to pulverising ukraines rag tag army. Victory by August.
    Evening Sergey!
  • Riddler said:

    Who holds the winning hand here?

    Putin has the apparatus of the Russian state to destroy Prigozhin, but without Prigozhin Putin is in deep doodoo.

    Both of them have duff hands now. The ones holding the best cards are the Ukrainians and any power player in the Kremlin or the Russian Army (if any exist) plotting for regime change.
    Cheer up guys excitement is over for the day. Putin is a master of deception and has played an absolute blinder. Hes certainly operating at a level above you guys. Dont you know deception is part of war. Now its back to pulverising ukraines rag tag army. Victory by August.
    @PBModerator you managed to attract 2 in 1 day. Impressive.
  • RiddlerRiddler Posts: 19
    Prigozhin demands less corruption in the army and more good weapons to be more effective at destroying Ukraine. Now he might get what he wanted. Putin to be more ruthless and give more ammunition to hit Ukraine. Ukrainian politicians celebrated this man today.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,274
    Another Putin-bot in PB-land.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,019
    Riddler said:

    Who holds the winning hand here?

    Putin has the apparatus of the Russian state to destroy Prigozhin, but without Prigozhin Putin is in deep doodoo.

    Both of them have duff hands now. The ones holding the best cards are the Ukrainians and any power player in the Kremlin or the Russian Army (if any exist) plotting for regime change.
    Cheer up guys excitement is over for the day. Putin is a master of deception and has played an absolute blinder. Hes certainly operating at a level above you guys. Dont you know deception is part of war. Now its back to pulverising ukraines rag tag army. Victory by August.
    Mate, just give it up. Go do something else, like read a book, or play some video games, or go for a walk. You're just wasting your time.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,446

    Not bizarre at all. Offshore Norway they use hydro power from onshore to power some platforms.
    That's not the bizarre bit. The bizarre bit is people complaining about that, as though the oil industry are cheating in some way.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,866
    Riddler said:

    Who holds the winning hand here?

    Putin has the apparatus of the Russian state to destroy Prigozhin, but without Prigozhin Putin is in deep doodoo.

    Both of them have duff hands now. The ones holding the best cards are the Ukrainians and any power player in the Kremlin or the Russian Army (if any exist) plotting for regime change.
    Cheer up guys excitement is over for the day. Putin is a master of deception and has played an absolute blinder. Hes certainly operating at a level above you guys. Dont you know deception is part of war. Now its back to pulverising ukraines rag tag army. Victory by August.
    It must be BOGOF day in the troll farm.
  • RiddlerRiddler Posts: 19

    Riddler said:

    Who holds the winning hand here?

    Putin has the apparatus of the Russian state to destroy Prigozhin, but without Prigozhin Putin is in deep doodoo.

    Both of them have duff hands now. The ones holding the best cards are the Ukrainians and any power player in the Kremlin or the Russian Army (if any exist) plotting for regime change.
    Cheer up guys excitement is over for the day. Putin is a master of deception and has played an absolute blinder. Hes certainly operating at a level above you guys. Dont you know deception is part of war. Now its back to pulverising ukraines rag tag army. Victory by August.
    Ah, you're back. How far out of Moscow did you get before you got the news?
    Moscow was as normal people out enjoying the day. All have full confidence in Putin. The west needs a strongman like him.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,018
    Riddler said:

    Prigozhin demands less corruption in the army and more good weapons to be more effective at destroying Ukraine. Now he might get what he wanted. Putin to be more ruthless and give more ammunition to hit Ukraine. Ukrainian politicians celebrated this man today.

    Liberating Ukraine, surely?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,539
    Riddler said:

    Who holds the winning hand here?

    Putin has the apparatus of the Russian state to destroy Prigozhin, but without Prigozhin Putin is in deep doodoo.

    Both of them have duff hands now. The ones holding the best cards are the Ukrainians and any power player in the Kremlin or the Russian Army (if any exist) plotting for regime change.
    Cheer up guys excitement is over for the day. Putin is a master of deception and has played an absolute blinder. Hes certainly operating at a level above you guys. Dont you know deception is part of war. Now its back to pulverising ukraines rag tag army. Victory by August.
    Welcome Riddler.

    Nice to see you start off with a parody post.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,228
    Riddler said:

    Riddler said:

    Who holds the winning hand here?

    Putin has the apparatus of the Russian state to destroy Prigozhin, but without Prigozhin Putin is in deep doodoo.

    Both of them have duff hands now. The ones holding the best cards are the Ukrainians and any power player in the Kremlin or the Russian Army (if any exist) plotting for regime change.
    Cheer up guys excitement is over for the day. Putin is a master of deception and has played an absolute blinder. Hes certainly operating at a level above you guys. Dont you know deception is part of war. Now its back to pulverising ukraines rag tag army. Victory by August.
    Ah, you're back. How far out of Moscow did you get before you got the news?
    Moscow was as normal people out enjoying the day. All have full confidence in Putin. The west needs a strongman like him.
    All?

    Every single person?

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,627

    Riddler said:

    Who holds the winning hand here?

    Putin has the apparatus of the Russian state to destroy Prigozhin, but without Prigozhin Putin is in deep doodoo.

    Both of them have duff hands now. The ones holding the best cards are the Ukrainians and any power player in the Kremlin or the Russian Army (if any exist) plotting for regime change.
    Cheer up guys excitement is over for the day. Putin is a master of deception and has played an absolute blinder. Hes certainly operating at a level above you guys. Dont you know deception is part of war. Now its back to pulverising ukraines rag tag army. Victory by August.
    Ah, you're back. How far out of Moscow did you get before you got the news?
    Even at £300 an hour she was bound to get tired of him sooner rather than later.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,586

    Wagner had a Hart to Hart with Putin

    His Powers Stepanie tly on the Wain
  • RiddlerRiddler Posts: 19
    I think we all have to agree what an impressive leader Putin is after his behaviour today.
  • Some thoughts on this whole thing before we go back to Brexit and Trans issues.

    1. Famous last words but it seems like we are in the end game of the war in Ukraine. Reading between the lines, it feels like the Ukrainian offensive is picking u some momentum. More to the point though, the Russian forces are irrevocably divided amongst themselves - Wagnerites vs regular army /Kadryovivites. Such a split will mean increasingly distrust / lack of co-operation and therefore less effectiveness. Moreover - and this may be the crucial part - the destruction of a number of helicopters by the Wagnerites is unlikely to be taken well by Russian air support units who might start "accidentally" firing on the Wagnerites.

    2. Putin is undoubtedly weakened and is probably on his end game too but bear in mind that, in the days of Communism, when a Supreme Leader left, often it was a Cabal that took over with a single leader taking time to establish themselves (it happened post-Lenin, post-Stalin and post-Khrushchev). If Putin goes, that is the most likely direction. The axis that seems most likely as of now would be Shiogu - Gerasimov - Lavrov, which I think the West would live with. BTW, Shiogu is considered to be non-Russian so it is very unlikely he would be the next Putin.

    3. Lukashenko is the one to watch here. As mentioned before, he has no power base in Russia but he has, in the past, seen himself as a potential President of Russia (in combo with Belarus). One scenario, and following 2, is that he is installed as Putin's successor because he has no power base and with the power wielded behind the scenes. If that was combined with a Belarus - Russia merger, that would be....interesting.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,627
    Riddler said:

    I think we all have to agree what an unimpressive leader Putin is after his behaviour today.

    Typo.

    But don't worry, I've corrected it for you.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,601
    Double dose today I see
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,274
    CatMan said:

    Riddler said:

    Who holds the winning hand here?

    Putin has the apparatus of the Russian state to destroy Prigozhin, but without Prigozhin Putin is in deep doodoo.

    Both of them have duff hands now. The ones holding the best cards are the Ukrainians and any power player in the Kremlin or the Russian Army (if any exist) plotting for regime change.
    Cheer up guys excitement is over for the day. Putin is a master of deception and has played an absolute blinder. Hes certainly operating at a level above you guys. Dont you know deception is part of war. Now its back to pulverising ukraines rag tag army. Victory by August.
    Mate, just give it up. Go do something else, like read a book, or play some video games, or go for a walk. You're just wasting your time.
    ESPECIALLY seeing as how there's a sudden shortage of Russian cannon fodder at the (UKR) front.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,369
    Riddler said:

    Prigozhin demands less corruption in the army and more good weapons to be more effective at destroying Ukraine. Now he might get what he wanted. Putin to be more ruthless and give more ammunition to hit Ukraine. Ukrainian politicians celebrated this man today.

    Riddle me this Riddler. What is the most used English swear word that autocorrect changes to “duck”, what is the 21st letter in the English alphabet and what is the same crude word for a lady’s sexual organ which is also an anagram of the name of a king of both England and Denmark?
  • RiddlerRiddler Posts: 19
    rcs1000 said:

    Riddler said:

    Riddler said:

    Who holds the winning hand here?

    Putin has the apparatus of the Russian state to destroy Prigozhin, but without Prigozhin Putin is in deep doodoo.

    Both of them have duff hands now. The ones holding the best cards are the Ukrainians and any power player in the Kremlin or the Russian Army (if any exist) plotting for regime change.
    Cheer up guys excitement is over for the day. Putin is a master of deception and has played an absolute blinder. Hes certainly operating at a level above you guys. Dont you know deception is part of war. Now its back to pulverising ukraines rag tag army. Victory by August.
    Ah, you're back. How far out of Moscow did you get before you got the news?
    Moscow was as normal people out enjoying the day. All have full confidence in Putin. The west needs a strongman like him.
    All?

    Every single person?

    Rcs sadly you live in a country with a weak leader a man who falls over. I know you are jealous of people in Russia but pleasectry to hide your resentment
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,637
    Back to shedding other people's blood
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,214

    It is disappointing that things do not appear to have come to a head so as to prompt immediate regime change in Moscow. But it is inconceivable that things go back to exactly the way they did before all this happened.

    Putin is weaker. The war is on shakier ground. Wagner is potentially split. Meanwhile, the Ukrainian counteroffensive continues.

    We have no idea whether 'immediate regime change' in Russia would be in any way positive. We just don't know. What we can say though is that there isn't any significant support for a western style liberal democracy.
    The current regime has no succession plan so regime change would just be heading in to the dark with unknown consequences.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,762
    Riddler said:

    I think we all have to agree what an impressive leader Putin is after his behaviour today.

    Only as a gay icon
  • glwglw Posts: 9,799
    Riddler said:

    Riddler said:

    Who holds the winning hand here?

    Putin has the apparatus of the Russian state to destroy Prigozhin, but without Prigozhin Putin is in deep doodoo.

    Both of them have duff hands now. The ones holding the best cards are the Ukrainians and any power player in the Kremlin or the Russian Army (if any exist) plotting for regime change.
    Cheer up guys excitement is over for the day. Putin is a master of deception and has played an absolute blinder. Hes certainly operating at a level above you guys. Dont you know deception is part of war. Now its back to pulverising ukraines rag tag army. Victory by August.
    Ah, you're back. How far out of Moscow did you get before you got the news?
    Moscow was as normal people out enjoying the day. All have full confidence in Putin. The west needs a strongman like him.
    Even by the usual troll standards this bit "All have full confidence in Putin." is particularly stupid.
  • RiddlerRiddler Posts: 19
    Now Russia finishes the job in Ukraine and humiliates the west.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,866

    Not bizarre at all. Offshore Norway they use hydro power from onshore to power some platforms.
    That's not the bizarre bit. The bizarre bit is people complaining about that, as though the oil industry are cheating in some way.
    Well it is a bit like zero carbon airports that ignore the emissions from the aircraft.

    For the avoidance of doubt, for as long as we need hydrocarbons then we should be aiming produce them here, and minimising emissions in their production is a good thing. We also need to minimise emissions in their consumption. For example with CCS.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,627

    Some thoughts on this whole thing before we go back to Brexit and Trans issues.

    1. Famous last words but it seems like we are in the end game of the war in Ukraine. Reading between the lines, it feels like the Ukrainian offensive is picking u some momentum. More to the point though, the Russian forces are irrevocably divided amongst themselves - Wagnerites vs regular army /Kadryovivites. Such a split will mean increasingly distrust / lack of co-operation and therefore less effectiveness. Moreover - and this may be the crucial part - the destruction of a number of helicopters by the Wagnerites is unlikely to be taken well by Russian air support units who might start "accidentally" firing on the Wagnerites.

    2. Putin is undoubtedly weakened and is probably on his end game too but bear in mind that, in the days of Communism, when a Supreme Leader left, often it was a Cabal that took over with a single leader taking time to establish themselves (it happened post-Lenin, post-Stalin and post-Khrushchev). If Putin goes, that is the most likely direction. The axis that seems most likely as of now would be Shiogu - Gerasimov - Lavrov, which I think the West would live with. BTW, Shiogu is considered to be non-Russian so it is very unlikely he would be the next Putin.

    3. Lukashenko is the one to watch here. As mentioned before, he has no power base in Russia but he has, in the past, seen himself as a potential President of Russia (in combo with Belarus). One scenario, and following 2, is that he is installed as Putin's successor because he has no power base and with the power wielded behind the scenes. If that was combined with a Belarus - Russia merger, that would be....interesting.

    After the death of Lenin it was 1982 before a full Russian next led the Soviet Union. And even then, it was a brief interregnum before another Russo-Ukrainian took over.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,586
    edited June 2023

    Riddler said:

    Who holds the winning hand here?

    Putin has the apparatus of the Russian state to destroy Prigozhin, but without Prigozhin Putin is in deep doodoo.

    Both of them have duff hands now. The ones holding the best cards are the Ukrainians and any power player in the Kremlin or the Russian Army (if any exist) plotting for regime change.
    Cheer up guys excitement is over for the day. Putin is a master of deception and has played an absolute blinder. Hes certainly operating at a level above you guys. Dont you know deception is part of war. Now its back to pulverising ukraines rag tag army. Victory by August.
    Evening Sergey!
    Or if homosexual Sir Gay

    Courtesy of Sunil
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,025

    Oh no, another one!

    To be fair, is he a troll if he is quite open about being in Russia and supporting Putin?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,544
    Riddler said:

    I think we all have to agree what an impressive leader Putin is after his behaviour today.

    You might have to agree in Russia, but one of the nice things about living in an actual democracy is that we don't have to agree.

    You tend to get better (not perfect, but better) decisions that way. Maybe you and your chums should try it.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,762
    Riddler said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Riddler said:

    Riddler said:

    Who holds the winning hand here?

    Putin has the apparatus of the Russian state to destroy Prigozhin, but without Prigozhin Putin is in deep doodoo.

    Both of them have duff hands now. The ones holding the best cards are the Ukrainians and any power player in the Kremlin or the Russian Army (if any exist) plotting for regime change.
    Cheer up guys excitement is over for the day. Putin is a master of deception and has played an absolute blinder. Hes certainly operating at a level above you guys. Dont you know deception is part of war. Now its back to pulverising ukraines rag tag army. Victory by August.
    Ah, you're back. How far out of Moscow did you get before you got the news?
    Moscow was as normal people out enjoying the day. All have full confidence in Putin. The west needs a strongman like him.
    All?

    Every single person?

    Rcs sadly you live in a country with a weak leader a man who falls over. I know you are jealous of people in Russia but pleasectry to hide your resentment
    I suspect RCS is jealous because he really wants to live in a country where the national dish is beetroot soup because most are to poor to afford anything else.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,605
    Riddler said:

    Riddler said:

    Who holds the winning hand here?

    Putin has the apparatus of the Russian state to destroy Prigozhin, but without Prigozhin Putin is in deep doodoo.

    Both of them have duff hands now. The ones holding the best cards are the Ukrainians and any power player in the Kremlin or the Russian Army (if any exist) plotting for regime change.
    Cheer up guys excitement is over for the day. Putin is a master of deception and has played an absolute blinder. Hes certainly operating at a level above you guys. Dont you know deception is part of war. Now its back to pulverising ukraines rag tag army. Victory by August.
    Ah, you're back. How far out of Moscow did you get before you got the news?
    Moscow was as normal people out enjoying the day. All have full confidence in Putin. The west needs a strongman like him.
    If you think the West abuses the global south when it has weak leaders, surely the last thing you should want would be a strongman?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,586
    Riddler said:

    Now Russia finishes the job in Ukraine and humiliates the west.

    Extremely unlikely IMO
  • darkage said:

    It is disappointing that things do not appear to have come to a head so as to prompt immediate regime change in Moscow. But it is inconceivable that things go back to exactly the way they did before all this happened.

    Putin is weaker. The war is on shakier ground. Wagner is potentially split. Meanwhile, the Ukrainian counteroffensive continues.

    We have no idea whether 'immediate regime change' in Russia would be in any way positive. We just don't know. What we can say though is that there isn't any significant support for a western style liberal democracy.
    The current regime has no succession plan so regime change would just be heading in to the dark with unknown consequences.
    Better the dark with unknown consequences than daylight with certain terrible consequences.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,369
    Riddler said:

    I think we all have to agree what an impressive leader Putin is after his behaviour today.

    He ran away. Unlike Zelensky.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,650
    Riddler said:

    I think we all have to agree what an impressive leader Putin is after his behaviour today.

    Impressively shit, yes. Ran away didn't he. Like a little girl.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,627
    They must still be feeling rather panicky in Russia if the double trouble is anything to go by.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    Riddler said:

    Now Russia finishes the job in Ukraine and humiliates the west.

    Haha. Putin is weaker than ever before. The Lukashenko-Prighozin alliance will ease him out of power. Flabby gollum was too cowardly to even show his face in Moscow til after it was all over.
  • RiddlerRiddler Posts: 19
    CatMan said:

    Riddler said:

    Who holds the winning hand here?

    Putin has the apparatus of the Russian state to destroy Prigozhin, but without Prigozhin Putin is in deep doodoo.

    Both of them have duff hands now. The ones holding the best cards are the Ukrainians and any power player in the Kremlin or the Russian Army (if any exist) plotting for regime change.
    Cheer up guys excitement is over for the day. Putin is a master of deception and has played an absolute blinder. Hes certainly operating at a level above you guys. Dont you know deception is part of war. Now its back to pulverising ukraines rag tag army. Victory by August.
    Mate, just give it up. Go do something else, like read a book, or play some video games, or go for a walk. You're just wasting your time.
    This forum has spent 24 hours w.nking over a non coup and you accuse me of wasting my time. Putin played you for suckers again.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,631
    edited June 2023

    Another Putin-bot in PB-land.

    But they weren’t posting until Prigozhin stopped driving. QED. Good to know Putin stays off his phone in aircraft.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,274
    Cookie said:

    Oh no, another one!

    To be fair, is he a troll if he is quite open about being in Russia and supporting Putin?
    He's Sergei Kuzhugetovich Shoigu . . . transitioning into a new role . . . for time being . . .
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,650

    Some thoughts on this whole thing before we go back to Brexit and Trans issues

    Surely Putin IS a trans issue. A tit with a tiny penis.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,627
    Riddler said:

    CatMan said:

    Riddler said:

    Who holds the winning hand here?

    Putin has the apparatus of the Russian state to destroy Prigozhin, but without Prigozhin Putin is in deep doodoo.

    Both of them have duff hands now. The ones holding the best cards are the Ukrainians and any power player in the Kremlin or the Russian Army (if any exist) plotting for regime change.
    Cheer up guys excitement is over for the day. Putin is a master of deception and has played an absolute blinder. Hes certainly operating at a level above you guys. Dont you know deception is part of war. Now its back to pulverising ukraines rag tag army. Victory by August.
    Mate, just give it up. Go do something else, like read a book, or play some video games, or go for a walk. You're just wasting your time.
    This forum has spent 24 hours w.nking over a non coup and you accuse me of wasting my time. Putin played you for suckers again.
    Well, he has to play with something. And let's face it, he's too small to be sucked.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,056
    boulay said:

    Riddler said:

    Prigozhin demands less corruption in the army and more good weapons to be more effective at destroying Ukraine. Now he might get what he wanted. Putin to be more ruthless and give more ammunition to hit Ukraine. Ukrainian politicians celebrated this man today.

    Riddle me this Riddler. What is the most used English swear word that autocorrect changes to “duck”, what is the 21st letter in the English alphabet and what is the same crude word for a lady’s sexual organ which is also an anagram of the name of a king of both England and Denmark?
    dammit, you made me count... :)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,627

    Riddler said:

    I think we all have to agree what an impressive leader Putin is after his behaviour today.

    Impressively shit, yes. Ran away didn't he. Like a little girl.
    That's actually extremely offensive.

    Little girls don't run like cowards.

    I thought better of you than that RP.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,274

    Riddler said:

    I think we all have to agree what an impressive leader Putin is after his behaviour today.

    Impressively shit, yes. Ran away didn't he. Like a little girl.
    Grossly unfair . . . to little girls.
  • RiddlerRiddler Posts: 19
    I will be off this gorum soon anyway. A lot of celebrating to be donr tonight. People in the west are stupider than i thought.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,369
    viewcode said:

    boulay said:

    Riddler said:

    Prigozhin demands less corruption in the army and more good weapons to be more effective at destroying Ukraine. Now he might get what he wanted. Putin to be more ruthless and give more ammunition to hit Ukraine. Ukrainian politicians celebrated this man today.

    Riddle me this Riddler. What is the most used English swear word that autocorrect changes to “duck”, what is the 21st letter in the English alphabet and what is the same crude word for a lady’s sexual organ which is also an anagram of the name of a king of both England and Denmark?
    dammit, you made me count... :)
    I was too pissed so googled it!
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,544

    Riddler said:

    I think we all have to agree what an impressive leader Putin is after his behaviour today.

    You might have to agree in Russia, but one of the nice things about living in an actual democracy is that we don't have to agree.

    You tend to get better (not perfect, but better) decisions that way. Maybe you and your chums should try it.
    Here's an example. The government governs badly, it becomes visibly unpopular, we can be confident that it will stop being the government. It's not a perfect system, but it does the job in the end.

    Labour makes gains and leads by 18 points

    Labour 44% (+3)
    Conservatives 26% (-3)
    Lib Dems 8% (-3)
    SNP 2% (-1)
    Green 7% (n/c)
    Reform UK 10% (+3)


    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1672681034817626112
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,627
    Riddler said:

    I will be off this gorum soon anyway. A lot of celebrating to be donr tonight. People in the west are stupider than i thought.

    What's a gorum? Is this some Russian word I don't know meaning 'shift?'
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    Riddler said:

    CatMan said:

    Riddler said:

    Who holds the winning hand here?

    Putin has the apparatus of the Russian state to destroy Prigozhin, but without Prigozhin Putin is in deep doodoo.

    Both of them have duff hands now. The ones holding the best cards are the Ukrainians and any power player in the Kremlin or the Russian Army (if any exist) plotting for regime change.
    Cheer up guys excitement is over for the day. Putin is a master of deception and has played an absolute blinder. Hes certainly operating at a level above you guys. Dont you know deception is part of war. Now its back to pulverising ukraines rag tag army. Victory by August.
    Mate, just give it up. Go do something else, like read a book, or play some video games, or go for a walk. You're just wasting your time.
    This forum has spent 24 hours w.nking over a non coup and you accuse me of wasting my time. Putin played you for suckers again.
    Haha. Ukraine is right now breaking through Russian lines because of the clusterf*ck that is Russian military organization. Russian helicopters you can't replace were shot out of the sky. Collapse incoming. Mainly because Russian men are so lacking in virility.
  • Where's Putin ?

    If he's such a strong leader, he should be making a statement by now.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,139
    This isn't the Spithead Mutiny: this is Russia. It's not the sort of place where you shake hands, agree a deal, and go back to how things were.

    Either Prigozhin got everything he wanted, and is now the power behind the throne, or he'll accidentally fall out a window soon.

    My guess is the former.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    ydoethur said:

    Riddler said:

    I will be off this gorum soon anyway. A lot of celebrating to be donr tonight. People in the west are stupider than i thought.

    What's a gorum? Is this some Russian word I don't know meaning 'shift?'
    It is how Russia's Chinese overlords describe Putin.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,586
    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    5m
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 44% (+3)
    CON: 26% (-3)
    REF: 10% (+3)
    LDEM: 8% (-3)
    GRN: 7% (-)

    via
    @OpiniumResearch
    , 21 - 23 Jun

    Tory A Team fans please explain
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,650
    Riddler said:

    I will be off this gorum soon anyway. A lot of celebrating to be donr tonight. People in the west are stupider than i thought.

    And yet you still waste your time on here. Time after time after time. You post your laughable shit, we ban you. You come back and post more laughable shit.

    The number of people you have turned? Zero.
  • RiddlerRiddler Posts: 19
    Putin isnt perfect but hes the best hope in standing against western degeneracy.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,214
    WillG said:

    Riddler said:

    Now Russia finishes the job in Ukraine and humiliates the west.

    Haha. Putin is weaker than ever before. The Lukashenko-Prighozin alliance will ease him out of power. Flabby gollum was too cowardly to even show his face in Moscow til after it was all over.
    Russia is quite a confusing country but on a domestic level this seems like bad news for Putin's 'strong and stable' image - having a mutiny that could not be put down, with the guy who started it not being arrested or killed.
  • TheKitchenCabinetTheKitchenCabinet Posts: 2,275
    edited June 2023
    ydoethur said:

    Some thoughts on this whole thing before we go back to Brexit and Trans issues.

    1. Famous last words but it seems like we are in the end game of the war in Ukraine. Reading between the lines, it feels like the Ukrainian offensive is picking u some momentum. More to the point though, the Russian forces are irrevocably divided amongst themselves - Wagnerites vs regular army /Kadryovivites. Such a split will mean increasingly distrust / lack of co-operation and therefore less effectiveness. Moreover - and this may be the crucial part - the destruction of a number of helicopters by the Wagnerites is unlikely to be taken well by Russian air support units who might start "accidentally" firing on the Wagnerites.

    2. Putin is undoubtedly weakened and is probably on his end game too but bear in mind that, in the days of Communism, when a Supreme Leader left, often it was a Cabal that took over with a single leader taking time to establish themselves (it happened post-Lenin, post-Stalin and post-Khrushchev). If Putin goes, that is the most likely direction. The axis that seems most likely as of now would be Shiogu - Gerasimov - Lavrov, which I think the West would live with. BTW, Shiogu is considered to be non-Russian so it is very unlikely he would be the next Putin.

    3. Lukashenko is the one to watch here. As mentioned before, he has no power base in Russia but he has, in the past, seen himself as a potential President of Russia (in combo with Belarus). One scenario, and following 2, is that he is installed as Putin's successor because he has no power base and with the power wielded behind the scenes. If that was combined with a Belarus - Russia merger, that would be....interesting.

    After the death of Lenin it was 1982 before a full Russian next led the Soviet Union. And even then, it was a brief interregnum before another Russo-Ukrainian took over.
    Mmmm, that is not true. Khrushchev was Russian -he was born in now what is Russia and his parents were Russian peasants. Brezhnev was born in Ukraine but considered himself Russian although there were questions whether he was Ukrainian or Russian (and, as we see, from the Russian side, they consider the two the same).

    In any event, having a non-Russian was fine under Communism given the USSR's structure and declared 'Brotherhood of Man' / unified peoples' schlick (in fact, for the Communists, it was a plus because it showed the minority nations they could have real power and were treated as equals). That is not the case in Russia which is very nationalistic.
This discussion has been closed.